Nerd Journey: Recent Episodes
John White | Nick Korte
When does a body of work reach completion? One answer is to end it by choice.
This week in episode 356 you’ll hear the reasons behind our intentional ending of the Nerd Journey Podcast. We’ll rewind the clock and focus on the show’s trajectory and inflection points over time just like we’ve done for guests, share what we learned over the course of an 8-year journey from idea to consistently released show, and discuss our favorite moments.
All of our content will remain online and accessible for listeners like you to go back and enjoy. Don’t miss our final call to action in this episode. Just because this body of work is complete, there is still work for all of us to do for our careers.
Original Recording Date: 12-20-2025
Topics – A Purposeful Ending, Where We Started, Interview Format and Getting to Launch, The Why Behind the Ending, The Lessons We Learned, Our Favorite Moments, What to Expect from Us Moving Forward, There’s More to Be Done for All of Us.1:01 – A Purposeful Ending* We’ll give you the bottom line up front: this is the last episode of the Nerd Journey podcast. We still love the mission, but the time has come for us to complete this body of work. * When we have interviewed guests on the show, we’ve talked through their career timeline and pulled out the lessons learned. Today, we’re going to do it for the show itself.
1:38 – Where We Started* John was working as a sales engineer at VMware and was the co-host of the VMware Community Roundtable Podcast. He loved listening to podcasts, enjoyed the medium, and wanted to find a topic for a show. At the same time Nick was in the process of joining VMware, John and Nick were discussing all the things Nick needed to know to transition into sales engineering for a technology vendor. + “In that conversation, I said ‘maybe we should start a podcast.’” – John White + As Nick remembers it, this happened the weekend before Nick started at VMware in December 2017 (almost exactly 8 years before this episode’s recording). Nick wasn’t sure what he would talk about on a podcast. + This suggestion from John started the ideation period, and our launch of the show was in July 2018. * John talks about some of the initial ideas for the focus of the show. + At that time, VMware podcasts and blogs were a great way to interact with the greater community. Doing something like this was also a way to become what John calls “nerd famous.” By the way, no one else can use that term now (trademarked by John). + We initially considered talking about VMware news and our opinions on it since we both were going to be working at VMware. + Both John and Nick came from small-to-medium business IT operations and eventually became sales engineers at a technology vendor. One of the things the show could be for is to talk about that journey and help others understand it was a possibility for them as well. + John and Nick recorded about 10 episodes before launching to help hit the release cadence. + Nick doesn’t remember why they chose a weekly release cadence but remembers the show launched while he was on vacation. - John and Nick even recorded a podcast episode while Nick was on that vacation, which started a habit of Nick doing podcast work while on vacation. + Because they had recorded so many episodes in advance, they were not going to be timely or points of authority on VMware technology. Both Nick and John’s roles were as technical generalists on the VMware side. - “The only evergreen stuff that we had was the career stuff, so that became a little bit more the focus. I think that we were still thinking…we’ll just record more maybe VMware specific stuff later on…as that happens. For right now, here it is.” – John White + Early episodes were very prescriptive about resumes and job interview processes at larger tech companies, for example. - Nick points out that John had to carry the conversation in these early episodes because he was just learning to think about career focused topics (sort of like being new to lifting weights). But, Nick picked up a lot just from the conversations on the show.
7:50 – Interview Format and Getting to Launch* Nick couldn’t remember what made them bring in guests originally, but Episode 13 with Tom Delicati was our very first guest interview on the show. + John feels bringing in guests was always back of mind for him, and it was what he saw happen on the VMware Community Roundtable Podcast. + “We’re just 2 people and we have our experience. But we can’t represent that as the full breadth of all of experience. That just doesn’t make any sense. So, we need to start exploring what other people’s career journeys have looked like and see if we can extract some knowledge and recommendations from that.” – John White + Nick doesn’t remember having a prescriptive plan for interviewing guests but feels like they settled into long-form interviews as a style pretty quickly. + John says this was a structure they hit upon in the beginning (talking through someone’s job history). The lessons learned from career inflection points like job transitions emerged from conversations with guests. John and Nick did not know this was going to happen when they began. + Nick likes being able to highlight more of one specific guest’s story than otherwise could have been done if each interview was only 30 minutes with a guest. But we fully acknowledge people like different lengths of podcasts. + “We wanted to tell interesting stories that had an arc: a beginning and an end and a journey in between. And we were able to find those even chopping people’s long 2-hour conversations up into 2 or even 3 episodes. I think that worked for us. I don’t know if it worked for everybody.” – John White + “We probably spent the same time interviewing people as we would have. We just didn’t interview as many as if it had been 1 episode per person.” – Nick Korte - We also didn’t want to release a 2-hour interview as one episode. That’s a lot of editing for just one episode release. People might not realize how much time goes into editing and production even after recording an interview. * At the beginning, John had to give Nick advice on the kind of microphone to get. Nick started recording with a headset and then bought the same mic as John. They would each later invest in nicer microphones as the show progressed. + “I knew nothing about editing and really not that much about how to make a podcast.” – Nick Korte, on beginning as a podcaster * There were a lot of things we had to figure out just to make the podcast publicly available. + John had researched some of the administrative things. He knew there was a WordPress plugin that could be used to turn MP3 files of released episodes into publicly available audio feed that would be the podcast. + John says there were some mental blocks and hurdles he had to get through before launching the show, highlighting the fact that it took 6 months to go from idea to publishing. He was getting overwhelmed trying to figure out the back-end production and publishing process. + John thinks it was Nick who kept asking what needed to happen for us to launch, and we went with WordPress and the plugin mentioned but never changed anything…because we had no time to go back. Nick and John learned that once you start a show and get it going, you will never run out of ideas.
13:58 – The Why Behind the Ending* We never ran out of ideas. In fact, we still have ideas. So why are we stopping the podcast? + We ran out of time. + Nick has run out of time to work on editing and production. This has been a weekly show (up until the last couple months of our run), and it takes a large time commitment each week. - For guest interview episodes, the intro and outro were not recorded at the same time the interview took place. These had to be recorded before the episode was released. - The show notes are not AI-generated. Nick enjoyed writing them and adding in important links and references, feeling like it allowed him to remember the episodes better and internalize the lessons within them. - Nick has a teenager now with many extracurricular activities and has had a workload increase at his job. - “Probably for the last year I think I’ve been fooling myself at how much of a toll it’s been to just get an episode out each week.” – Nick Korte - We even tried changing the release schedule to bi-weekly and have missed that cadence a couple of times. + John ran out of time about 4 years ago and hasn’t had much time since to handle podcast related tasks. - John experienced a job change and new baby at that time and couldn’t add anything else. He also moved at some point. - John and Nick have been advancing in their own careers over time as well, which has added responsibility. - John and his wife recently had a second child. He also left his job in June 2025 and has been doing a job search at the same time. + Before Nick and John made this decision, Nick listened back to some previous episodes to get advice and perspective. Some of the advice that echoed the loudest came from Amy Lewis in Episode 302 – Ending with Intention: Once a Geek Whisperer with Amy Lewis (2/2). The idea of ending with intention stood out. - “Rather than being spotty on our releases and not keeping our promise of how often we say we’re going to get the show out, we wanted to end it with intention and say, ‘ok, this is it.’” – Nick Korte - “We haven’t lost the love of this task. We both want this to continue. But realistically, we can’t do it. And rather than sputter and peter out and never be heard from again, we just thought we’ll follow the lessons that we’ve learned from our bettors and do what they did. Let’s be intentional about the end.” – John White
18:02 – The Lessons We Learned* John learned how much we can learn from the experience of others. He had ideas and biases about how we should handle specific aspects of our career, but doing the podcast allowed him to pressure test these ideas against the experience of others. + John appreciates the breadth of background and experience our collective guests have brought to the show. It made him realize there are so many different ways to do certain things. * Nick learned a ton about the mechanics of podcast production. + It was around Episode 113 when Nick became the editor because John needed to take a break. If you want to hear more about how this happened, check out this blog post. + Nick got hooked into podcast communities and even attended a podcast conference in 2025, meeting many other people who run their own podcast. * Nick learned how much salesmanship is involved in getting a guest. + You have to sell someone on the idea of being on the show and what they can bring to your listeners. How easy can you make it for them to say yes? + John and Nick asked guests for 1.5 – 2 hours for an interview. + “If you make it easy for someone to say yes and you build the outline of questions you might ask and you tell them what your show is about and what you want to cover, they’ll say yes. And they might give you more time than that…. I learned so much about different people that I never would have met otherwise. I am thankful for all the learnings of all the people who have been on the show. And I’m thankful for everything I’ve learned from you, John.” – Nick Korte * John is grateful for the difference in skills he and Nick have and their ability to learn from one another just by co-hosting together. + He likes to apply the idea of making it easy for others to say yes when he’s asking something of someone at work, for example. * Nick learned how to beat perfectionism weekly. + Something can always be edited more or re-recorded. There was a weekly ship date. + “The deadline was always there to keep me honest.” – Nick Korte + Seth Godin’s The Practice talks about keeping a promise to the people who follow you. Having a weekly release cadence meant we were promising to ship episodes weekly. + “So, whether one person listened or a million people listened, we tried to keep that promise. And it was important to us to keep it, even if it was hard.” – Nick Korte + “Having a million people listen to a specific episode or even hit the site in a specific week wasn’t the goal. I think the goal was the breadth of work and making it accessible and having people be able to benefit from it.” – John White * We also had to learn how to tell people about the show in a clear, succinct way. When John or Nick would join video calls for work, people would see their microphones and ask if they had a podcast. * We also used generative AI in our workflow for production a little bit, even if it was not for show notes. Doing the show has dragged with it some reasons to tinker with generative AI. + With John’s help Nick learned how to build a Gemini prompt that would take the handwritten show notes and brainstorm titles, episode descriptions, and even create a prompt for a featured image based on the themes in the episode. + John shares that we never wanted to use generative AI to take a transcript and generate an episode outline. We might lose touch with the content that way. * John talks about the curse of being an audio editor. + It’s impossible to NOT hear issues in other audio. Nick can hear mouth noises on Zoom calls like you wouldn’t believe. + John says we can listen to someone else’s podcast and may be able to tell who is and is not the editor based on whether they speak into the microphone or move away from it and keep talking.
25:15 – Our Favorite Moments* John says it’s hard to pick just one favorite moment. + We got to meet some of our heroes in podcasting and other people who were “nerd famous” about their career stories. + We had some great conversations with John Nicholson about how to evaluate a job offer and personal finance. Check out these for reference: - Episode 224 – Tech Marketing, Interview Questions, and Executives as Wild Bears with John Nicholson (1/3) - Episode 225 – Take Stock of Your Compensation with John Nicholson (2/3) - Episode 226 – Negotiating Job Offers and Personal Finance Tips with John Nicholson (3/3) + Having a podcast allowed us to have lengthy conversations with people who may not have otherwise had a reason to talk to us. John doesn’t think asking someone out of the blue for 2 hours of time without having a podcast would have worked well. + John says he has a strong recency bias, often walking away from an interview with a guest thinking it was the best one yet. * Nick’s favorite moments + Nick remembers the first time we interviewed Mike Burkhart (in Episode 64 and Episode 65). He was having wifi issues and had to move everything into his living room floor to record the episode. John and Mike were kind enough to stay online and still do the interview. + John and Nick live in different parts of the United States and have only been able to record together in person a handful of times. These times were special and rare. Nick remembers the time they recorded at VMware Explore and forgot to hit record…twice in a row! * If John had to succumb to recency bias, he would pick the recent interview with Milin Desai. This set of interviews stands alone as the only time we were cold pitched a guest by someone we did not know, and it was a perfect fit. We got over 2 hours with a CEO! + Episode 349 – Expand Your Curiosity: Build, Own, and Maintain Relevance with Milin Desai (1/3) + Episode 350 – Scope and Upside: The Importance of Contextual Communication with Milin Desai (2/3) + Episode 350 – Opt In: A CEO’s Take on Becoming AI Native with Milin Desai (3/3) + People being both generous with their time and inciteful has been a pattern with guests. Nick and John got to have conversations with people both on the air and off the air. * Nick appreciated having Dale McKay on the show (a mentor of his). You can find those episodes here: + Episode 288 – Guardrails for Growth: A Mentor’s Experience with Dale McKay (1/2) + Episode 289 – Enhance Your Personal Brand: Feedback as a Catalyst for Change with Dale McKay (2/2) * Some other favorites from Nick: + He enjoyed all of the conversations about the principal title and principal engineers. See also the principal tag for more of these stories. + Nick also really enjoyed hearing the stories about why people went into leadership roles and why they moved away from them. + One specific episode Nick highlights as a favorite is Episode 127 – Countdown to Burnout with Tom Hollingsworth (3/3). John mentions we all battle burnout from time to time, and having such great advice to go back to is a gift. + Nick says being the editor is also a gift because you’re going to get to listen to the recorded discussion multiple times. Many times, the questions Nick and John asked in guest interviews were things they needed help with in their own careers. Hopefully the answers to those questions helped you as a listener too! * John liked the fact that we were able to clip some of the times we messed up on the air and include those sound bites at the very end of an episode for people. + To find these episodes, look for the Stinger metadata tag on an episode post. + Nick mentions the Barry White intro stinger. It’s actually at the end of Episode 17. + There are also some good stingers with guest Chris Williams.
31:05 – What to Expect from Us Moving Forward* What are the things that will, won’t, and might happen in the future? + The Nerd Journey site will remain online and accessible so our content will not disappear. - You can still enjoy past episodes, browse the show notes, and leverage the Layoff Resources Page as well as our Career Uncertainty Action Guide. - John and Nick can keep it online in a very cost-effective way just as they have to this point since the podcast was never monetized (not even Amazon affiliate links). + John still has a dream of making sure we have transcripts of all the episodes and making these available in addition to the show notes. Maybe that could be extended to an AI chat bot that was trained on the transcripts. There would be some overhead involved in doing it, but John thinks it’s definitely possible. + You can still reach out to John or Nick on LinkedIn or send us an e-mail. All current communication channels will remain in place. - We are available for questions, if you want to talk, etc. + We will definitely NOT restart this show. We have declared it complete. - Even if we were going to do a show like this again in the future, we would do it differently. We might choose a different name, a different description, or a different format even. But we don’t have the time to do that right now anyway. + We are NOT starting a new show (at least not right now).
34:59 – There’s More to Be Done for All of Us* Just because the show is ending, that doesn’t mean your work is complete. None of our work is complete when it comes to career. + “The things that we’ve talked about in curating your own career and being intentional about it always apply. We’re not going to be around to remind you of that every week, so I hope that people have learned those lessons and internalized them. But if not, do something to make those things intentional. You need to prioritize your career on a consistent basis.” – John White * Here are some specific actions that you should take: + Document your work. + Generate proof of work. + Show your work (similar to generating proof of work). - John says this is what we were unconsciously doing when we began the podcast, sharing how we got to where we are and our job transitions so others can follow a similar path if they choose. - The purpose of showing your work is so that others can learn from your experience and so you can remind yourself of what you’ve accomplished at a later time. - Nick highlights that Episode 66: Three-Month Check-In as a Google Cloud Customer Engineer with John White, Part 1 remains the most downloaded episode in our catalog. + Aim for small, iterative improvements. + Turn information into knowledge. - Some of this is through writing. We spoke several times on the show about writing being thinking, and it was specifically referenced in an episode with Josh Duffney – Episode 156 – Better Notes, Better You with Josh Duffney (1/2). - Manage your knowledge in some kind of written form that isn’t in your head. Make it a knowledge management system of some kind. + Practice Deep Work. It’s the most important work you can do because the skill of sustained attention will be the thing for which people are paid. + Be mindful of technology waves and trends, and consider placing some small bets. Many guests have invested time and effort to become proficient in a newer technology before or as it was catching on. Don’t be afraid to tinker with those newer technologies. + Consistently invest in your professional network. One way to do this could be via meetup groups or online communities. * Reach out to use if you want to talk about careers, starting a podcast, or other fun topics. Nick can also tell you what it’s like to go through the John White School of Mentoring. * We want to say a special thank you to every guest who took the time to be on the podcast and every listener who took the time to listen to an episode. * If you’d like to read Nick’s reflection post about the show coming to a close, you can find it here – A Promise Kept: Choosing to Sunset the Nerd Journey Podcast.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Has organizational change redefined your job role? If it hasn’t yet, it will at some point. Whether acknowledged or ignored, every organizational change at a company impacts you. This is broader than just layoffs and more employees under a single manager. What are the organizational changes we might see, and what can we do to stand out and stay the course?
This week in episode 355 we’re joined by guest Ryan Conley. Listen closely as we uncover different patterns of organizational change and provide practical tips to take action when those changes happen. Ryan helps us understand the corporate lifecycle and how to reframe this concept to understand where we are in the career lifecycle. You’ll hear from Ryan’s personal experience why the most resilient (and successful) technologists can identify and fill the gaps left after an organizational change whether that means working for a new boss, joining a different team, or changing job roles.
Original Recording Date: 11-13-2025
Topics – Framing Our Focus on Organizational Change, Observations and Patterns, Defining the Career Lifecycle, When Colleagues Leave the Company, Layoff Resources, Working for a New Boss, Becoming Part of a Different Team, Shifting Job Roles or Job Level Changes, Parting Thoughts2:58 – Framing Our Focus on Organizational Change* Ryan Conley is a global field principal with 11p years of technical pre-sales experience. Before this, Ryan accumulated 13 years of systems administration in industries like education, finance, and consulting. * In a recent episode of our show, guest Milin Desai compared organizations to living, breathing organisms that change. + Nick posits that we don’t always think changes at our company will or can affect us as employees, but they do. * Ryan references Aswath Damodaran’s writings about organizational change through the frame of a corporate lifecycle. + We can relate by considering where our company might be in that lifecycle. + As we experience the impacts of organizational change, Ryan encourages us to consider where we are in our career lifecycle.
4:19 – Observations and Patterns* We see organizational change in different ways. What are some of the things Ryan has seen that he would classify as organizational changes? + Let’s take a step back, past the current headlines, and look at the wider industry. + Companies are growing inorganically (through mergers and acquisitions) or organically through investments in R&D (research and development), for example. + Ryan has worked with companies that grew by acquiring 2 new companies each year to give an example. When you’re on the IT side of the acquiring company, there is a lot involved in the process like integrating e-mail systems, networks, and CRM systems. - This process also involves getting 2 teams to work together. If one team needs to move from Office 365 to Gmail, it can be a big adjustment to employees’ daily workflow. - The acquiring and acquired companies may have the same or very different cultures. In some cases, a company will want to acquire others with similar cultures, while some may not be concerned about the culture and choose to focus on the intellectual property (products or services, knowledge of how to build or manufacture something, etc.) of the company to be acquired. + Nick says the experience for people on the side of the acquiring company and that of the company getting acquired can be quite different. Nick worked in IT for a manufacturing company for about 9 years, and over the course of his time there saw the company acquire several other companies. - Nick usually had to go assess technology systems of companies that were going to be acquired and figure out how to integrate the systems in a way that would best service the user base. - From what Nick has seen, some employees from the acquired company were integrated into the acquiring company, while others were eventually no longer with the company. Anxiety levels about an acquisition may be different depending on whether you work for the acquiring company or the acquired company. + “The people are just as much of the intellectual property of the company as, in many cases, the actual assets themselves. And in some cases, that culture just isn’t a fit.” – Ryan Conley - Ryan shares the example of someone he knew who left after another company acquired their employer because the culture was not a fit. Losing a key leader or a key subject matter expert after an acquisition could create a retention problem because others may want to follow them or start looking elsewhere. - "So how do you protect the culture internally? How do you integrate a different culture in? But also, how do you kind of protect the long-term viability of the team as individuals, first and foremost, but then also the organization long-term? - Depending on the intellectual property the acquiring company is after, we don’t usually know the level of due diligence completed to understand the key resources or subject matter experts who must be retained for longer-term success. + Ryan encourages to imagine being the CTO or VP of Research and Development at a specific company that is suddenly acquired. - People in these roles drive the direction of the technology investment for their company today as well as years to come. After being acquired, these people might be asked to work in lower levels of leadership with different titles, which could result in “title shock” and require some humility to accept. - This scenario is a leadership change that happens as a result of an acquisition, but we might see leadership changes outside of acquisitions. Some leadership positions get created because of a specific need, others are eliminated for specific reasons, and some get shifted down or changed. Each of these changes has a downstream impact on individual contributors. - Ryan talks about the positive impacts of leadership changes and gives the example of when a former manager was promoted to senior manager and allowed that person to hire a manager underneath him. There isn’t always internal mobility, but leadership changes could create these opportunities for individuals. - Nick talks about the potential impact of a change in our direct boss / manager. If a boss who was difficult to work for leaves the company, getting a different boss could make a huge positive impact on our daily work lives. Similarly, we might have a great boss leave the company or take a different role, requiring that we learn to work for someone else who may operate very differently. - Ryan tells us he has worked for some amazing leaders and says a leader is not the same as a manager. Ryan cites an example of getting promoted into a role that allowed him to have more strategic conversations about the focus of a team with his boss. We can choose to mentor members of our team so that when opportunities arise from structural change, they are equipped to seize those opportunities. Change can be viewed as an opportunity. + A company’s overall priorities may have changed. - Shifting priorities may require a company to operate very differently than it has in the past, which can cause changes to people, processes, and technology. - Nick references a conversation with Milin Desai on constrained planning from Episode 351. Milin encourages regularly asking the question “is this still how we want to operate?” The way a company or team operated in the past may not be the best way to do it in the future. Changes to operations may or may not create opportunities for our career. Ryan loves this mindset of reassessing, which could apply to the company, a team, a business unit, the technology decision, etc. - “I love the mindset of ‘what was best, why did we do it, and why was it best then?’ And then the follow up question is ‘is that still best today?’ And it’s ok if the answer is no because that leads to the next question – ‘how should we be doing it today…and why?’” – Ryan Conley, commenting on Milin Desai’s concept of constrained planning - Ryan talks about companies reassessing their core focus. We’ve seen some companies divest out of a particular space, for example. - Nick says this reassessment could result in a decision to pursue an emerging market which could lead to the creation of a new business unit and new jobs / opportunities for people. It could also go in the other direction where the company decides to shut down an entire business unit.
15:30 – Defining the Career Lifecycle* Going back to the analogy Ryan shared about corporate lifecycle, we can reframe this and look at the career lifecycle. + “Where are you at in your individual career journey? Where are you at in that lifecycle?” – Ryan Conley + People close to retirement may be laser focused on doing well in their current role and hesitant to make a change. Others earlier in the career may want to do more, go deeper, or be more open to making a change. Ryan recounts speaking to a peer who is working on a master’s degree in AI. + “With challenge comes opportunity, so do you want to try something new? And it’s ok if the answer’s no. But if there is an opportunity to try something new and you’re willing to invest in yourself and in your company, I think that’s worth considering.” – Ryan Conley + We’ve talked to a number of former guests who got in on a technology wave at just the right time, which led to new opportunities and an entirely new career trajectory. Becoming aware of and developing expertise in emerging technologies can lead to new opportunities within your company (i.e. being able to influence the use of that technology within your company). + “I think as technologists, whether you’re a business leader over technology, whether you’re day in / day out in technology as an individual contributor…emerging technology brings new challenges, just with a learning curve…. There’s hard skills that have to be learned. You get beyond the education it’s then also sharing with the peers around you…. So, what was best yesterday? Is it still best today? And tomorrow, we’ll ask the question again.” – Ryan Conley - Ryan says this goes back to our analogy. Should we be doing certain things manually now, or is it better to rely on tools that can help automate the process? + If we go back for a second to Ryan’s previous mention of integrating the technology stack for different companies, being part of the integration process might enable someone to learn an entire new technology stack. We might have to assess what is best between Google Workspace and Microsoft 365, for example, and develop the transition plan to move from one to the other and perhaps even capture the business case for using both within a company. - To Ryan, this is an example of seeing a problem or gap and working to fill it. - “If you want to be just a long-standing contributor to the team and your individual organization, I think it’s worth calling out…those who stick around longer and get promoted faster are the ones who see a gap and they plug it.” – Ryan Conley - Ryan shares a personal story about a co-worker who attended a Microsoft conference on their own dime. This person worked over a weekend to setup a solution that saved the team significant time doing desktop imaging. But then, Ryan’s colleague took it a step further and trained the team on how to use it. - Nick highlights the fact that we should remember to document our accomplishments to keep track of how we’ve changed as a result. We can use this information when searching for new opportunities or even in conversations with our leader.
20:34 – When Colleagues Leave the Company* Another form of organizational change we’ve seen is outsourcing specific business functions. Daniel Paluszek spoke about companies outsourcing functions outside of their core business in Episode 338. + If IT is outside the core business, a company might decide to outsource it. It doesn’t mean that’s the right decision, but it could be a possibility. Companies may outsource other functions like HR and payroll as well to give other examples. + If IT was internal and it gets outsourced, that is an organizational change and will affect some people. Similarly, insourcing a function which was previously outsourced will have an impact. * Ryan has learned in the last few years that some people are more adaptable to change than others. + “And it’s not just looking at the silver lining. It’s recognizing the change. Maybe there’s a why, and maybe there isn’t a why. Or maybe the why hasn’t been clearly articulated to you. Being able to understand, what does this mean to me…. As an organization do I still believe in them? Do I still believe in the technology as a technologist? Do I still enjoy the people I work with? Those are all questions that come up, but ultimately you have to decide…is this change I want to roll with? Is this change I don’t want to roll with?” – Ryan Conley + To illustrate, Ryan gives the example of a peer who left an organization after seeing a change they didn’t like in order to shift the focus of their role from technology operations to more of a site reliability engineering focus. - While this type of change that results in a talented individual leaving an organization can be difficult for teammates to accept and for a manager to backfill, these types of changes that are beneficial to someone’s career should be celebrated. + When we assess whether the changes made at a company are those we can accept and roll with, we can first make sure we understand what we are to focus on as individuals operating within the organization. We have an opportunity to relay that to other members of our team for the benefit of the overall team culture and to build up those who do not adapt to change well. - Understanding organizational changes and what they mean for individuals may take repetition. While Ryan understands that he responds well to change, he remains empathetic to those folks to need to hear the message a few times to fully understand. * Nick says we can learn from the circumstances surrounding someone leaving the company. + For those we know, what interested them about taking a role at another company? Perhaps they took a role you’ve never thought about for yourself that could be something you pursue in the future. + If a member of your team leaves the company, sometimes their role gets backfilled, and other times it may not. - If the role is backfilled, you get to learn from a new team member. - If not, the responsibilities of the departing team member will likely be divided among other team members. Though it would result in extra work, you could ask to take on the responsibility that would both increase your skill set and make you more valuable to the company. - When Ryan worked for a hedge fund, the senior vice president left the company. This person was managing the company’s backups. Ryan had experience in this area from a previous role at a consulting firm and volunteered to do it. Shortly after taking on this responsibility for backups, he found that restoring backups from tape and needing to order new servers posed a huge risk to the company in a disaster scenario (i.e. would take weeks to restore everything). Ryan was able to write up a business plan to address the business continuity risk and got it approved by the COO. - “Being able to see a gap and fill it is the central theme, and that came from change.” – Ryan Conley - Ryan says if you’re willing to do a little more work, it is worth the effort to see a gap and work to fill it.
27:34 – Layoff Resources* We acknowledged some of the byproducts of organizational change like layoffs and flatter organizations in the beginning of our discussion. We are not sidestepping the fact that layoffs happen, but that is not the primary focus of our discussion today. Here are a few things that may help if you find yourself being impacted by a layoff: + First, know that you are not alone in experiencing this. + “When a layoff hits, it’s important to remember…it’s extremely rare that that’s going to be personal. Once it’s firmly accepted, look for the opportunity in a forced career change. It’s there.” – thought shared with us by Megan Wills + Check out our Layoff Resources Page to find some of the most impactful conversations on the topic of layoffs on our show to date. + We also have our Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of the 5 pillars of career resilience as well as reusable AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
28:43 – Working for a New Boss* Let’s move on to section 2 of our discussion. If you’re still at a company after an organization change has happened, we want to talk through some of the ways you can take control, take action, and succeed. We want to share a thought from former guest Daniel Lemire as we begin this discussion: + “Companies are the most complicated machine man has ever built. We build great machines to accomplish as set of goals, objectives, or outputs. The better you can understand the value the company delivers…the faster you can understand where you fit in that equation. If you don’t understand where you contribute to that value, there’s work to be done. That work may be on you, may be on your skills, or perhaps it’s your understanding of where you fit into that equation.” – Daniel Lemire * Let’s say that you’re impacted by an organizational change and will be working for a new boss. What can we control, and how to we make a positive impact? + Ryan says we can be an asset to the team and support larger business goals by first giving some thought to who the new boss is as a person. Try to get to know them on a personal level. - Ryan wants to get to know a new boss and be able to ask them difficult questions. Similarly, he wants a boss to be able to ask him difficult questions. - Meeting a new boss face-to-face is ideal if that is possible, but this can be more difficult to arrange if your boss lives a large distance from you. + Make sure you understand the larger organization’s mission statement. As individual contributors, we may lose sight of this over time. - “If that is important to the team and the culture, I think it’s worth making sure you’re aligned with that. I think it’s worth understanding your direct manager’s alignment toward that and then having that kind of fuel the discussions…. What are you expecting of me? Here are my expectations of you as my manager. Where do you see change in the next 6, 12, 18 months?” – Ryan Conley, on using mission to drive conversations with your manager - A manager may not have all the answers to your questions. They could also be inheriting a new team. Ryan encourages us to ask how we can help our manager to develop the working relationship further. This is something he learned from a previous boss who would close every 1-1 with “is there anything else I can do to help?” - Nick says a manager may be able to contextualize the organization’s mission statement for the team and its members better than we can do for ourselves. For example, the mission and focus of the team may have changed from what it once was. A new manager should (and likely will) set the tone. + Nick would classify Ryan’s suggestions above as seeking to learn and understand how your new manager operates. Back in Episode 84 guest Brad Pinkston talked about the importance of wanting to know how his manager likes to communicate and be communicated with. - This is about understanding your manager’s communication preferences and can in some ways help set expectations. A manager may be brief when responding to text messages, for example, because they are in a lot of meetings. But if they tell you this ahead of time, it removes some assumptions about any hidden meanings in the response. Ryan gives the example of an executive who used to respond with Y for yes and N for no to e-mails when answering questions. + We can also do research on a new boss in advance. - We can look on LinkedIn to understand the person’s background and work history. - We can speak to other people inside the company to see what they know about the person. Ideally, get a perspective from someone who has worked for the manager in the past because a former direct report might be able to share some of the context about communication preferences and other lessons learned from working with that specific manager. + We can also try to be mindful of how the manager’s position may have changed due to organizational flattening. They may have moved from managing managers to having 15 direct reports who are individual contributors, for example. - “Their time might be stretched thinner, and they’re just trying to navigate this new leadership organizational change with you.” – Ryan Conley - The manager may or may not have wanted the situation they are currently in. - How is your boss measured by their boss, and how can you help them hit those metrics? You may not want to ask this in the first 1-1, but you should ask. - Ryan suggests asking your boss what success looks like in their role. You can also ask what success for the team looks like in a year and what it will take to get there. Based on the answer, it might mean less 1-1s but more in depth each time, more independence than you want, or even more responsibility than you wanted or expected. Ultimately, by asking these questions, you’re trying to help the team be more successful. - We want our manager to understand that we are a competent member of the team. Understanding what success looks like allows us to communicate with our manager in a way that demonstrates we are doing a good job. Some of the time in our 1-1s with a manager will be spent communicating the things we have completed or on which we are actively working. We need to demonstrate our ability to meet deadlines, for example. - Daniel Lemire shared this book recommendation with us – The First 90 Days: Proven Strategies for Getting Up to Speed Faster and Smarter. It’s a great resource for new leaders but also excellent for individual contributors. + Ryan tells us to keep track of our wins over the course of any given year (something that was taught to him) so we have it ready for performance reviews. He encourages keeping a journal that we start in January. Keep track not only of what you did but the outcomes your work delivered and the success metrics. For example, if you gave a presentation, note the number of people present. - The company culture may have some impact on the language you need to use to word your accomplishments (i.e. using “I” statements). - “I didn’t want to be the only person who could do it. I’d rather learn it and then enable 5 other people to do it. And then those 5 people go do it, and that is a much bigger outcome.” – Ryan Conley, on the outcome of efforts at work and being a force multiplier - Have a journal of the things you do at work that you update consistently. This could be screenshots, a written description, etc. - “What are the metrics that you should be tracking? Mentally think about that because…when you have your annual review, you’re going to miss something. You’re going to miss a detail. You’re going to miss an entire line item versus if you started in January and you just get into the practice of ‘I did this.’ And then when you’re having your first annual review with this brand-new manager, it’s far easier to have a more successful conversation.” – Ryan Conley, on the importance of documenting our work in a journal somewhere - Ryan reminds us it is ok to use generative AI tools to check our work. Use multiple different tools to get suggestions on how you might want to phrase the outcomes you delivered and the metrics you tracked. - Nick says we should document our accomplishments as Ryan mentioned, but we should make sure we keep a copy of them so that we do not need to rewrite them from nothing in the event we are impacted by a layoff. If the journal containing all of your accomplishments is sitting in the corporate OneDrive or cloud storage, you will lose access to it when you leave the company. Be sure you have a disaster recovery plan for your accomplishments! + The new boss is probably going to have team calls of some kind. - While what you experience may vary from this, in Nick’s experience the first time a manager hosts a call with their team they will share some career background, how they operate, and give team members some idea of what to expect. This kickoff team call usually happens before 1-1s begin. - Listen really carefully when this first team call happens. Write down some questions you can ask the boss in that first 1-1 conversation. The manager will have to lead that first 1-1 conversation a little bit, but coming into it prepared with questions will be far easier than trying to think of questions in the moment. - A simple follow up question Ryan suggests is how the manager wants to handle time off. Is there a shared team calendar, a formal process, carte blanche, specific blackout dates to be aware of, etc.? We can handle the simple things about how this new manager operates and what their values are early on in our working relationship. + Ryan tells us he learned far too late to ask how managers handle promotion / raise / career growth conversations. - One of Ryan’s past managers scheduled a quarterly checkpoint to specifically talk about career growth items. Ryan was in charge of making the agenda in advance, and his manager would come prepared to talk about each agenda item. - It’s ok to ask for these regular career discussions. If your manager has a large team, these may be less frequent than otherwise. Ask the manager about the best way for both you and them to come into these discussions prepared. - Nick likes the idea of an individual owning the agenda for these conversations. Nick tells us about a manager who sent out 1-1s to team members and provided a menu of options for the types of things that could be discussed during the 1-1 time in the body of the meeting invitation. It helps give people ideas for things to discuss but also lets them know the overall intention of the 1-1s. For the very busy manager, we could ask to use a specific 1-1 to talk about career-related items rather than in a separate meeting (if needed). - Nick mentions a recent episode of Unicorns in the Breakroom Podcast in which Amy Lewis talks about using a shared document for 1-1s to hold an employee accountable for bringing agenda items and to document what transpired in previous conversations. + Along the lines of trying to be helpful to a new manager, ask how they want to handle team calls when on vacation. - Will team calls be cancelled when the manager is on vacation, or are they looking for team member volunteers to host these calls? This may be an opportunity to step up and do more if you want that, especially if you want to gain some leadership experience. Ryan tells us at one point he was a team lead, and part of his responsibility was leading team calls in his manager’s absence. This involved leading the call, taking notes, and taking action on follow up items from the meeting. + We should bring up time sensitive items to the boss quickly, especially if something needs attention.Communicate things that have a financial impact to the company (a subscription renewal, drop dead due date to exit a datacenter facility, point at which access to something will be lost, etc.). Do not assume your manager knows if you are unsure! - Ryan recounts a story from earlier in his career when a CFO wanted a specific number of users added to the Exchange server. There were several cascading impacts of completing this task that went well beyond the scope of licensing and involved procuring more hardware. Ryan took the time to explain the implications. - “This is a simple ask. You want the answer to be yes, but I’m going to give you more context…. There is a deadline. I want to make sure we hit it as a team, but there are some implications to your ask. I want to make sure you’re fully aware.” – Ryan Conley, on giving more context to leadership - Share what you have in flight and the priorities of those items. The new manager may want you to change the priority level on some things.
45:21 – Becoming Part of a Different Team* You could end up working on a completely different team of peers as a result of organizational change. You might work on the same team as people you already know but might not. You may or may not work for the same boss. + Ryan and Nick have experienced very large reorganization events and ended up in different divisions than they were previously. Ryan had a change of manager, change of a peer he worked closely with, and joined a new team of individuals reporting up to the same boss all at once. - “A little bit of the tough lesson is you go into a bigger pond…. I think it’s ok to take a moment and pause. For me, I had to kind of reassess and kind of figure out…what are these changes? What are the new best ways to operate within this new division so to speak? …within my team, no one on my prior team was on my team, so it was like this whole new world.” – Ryan Conley - After this change, Ryan saw an opportunity to go deeper into technology and chose to take a different role. - Ryan worked for a new (to Ryan at least) leader who was very supportive of his career goals. This leader helped Ryan through the change of roles. - “If you do good work, even through change…if you’re identifying gaps, you’re filling it, you’re stepping up where the team needs you to step up, you’re aligning with the business direction to stay focused…I think there can still be good outcomes even if in the interim period you’re not 100% happy.” – Ryan Conley + If you don’t know anyone on your new team, you have an entire set of people from which you can now learn. + Does your job function change as a result of joining this new team? Make sure you understand your role and its delineation from other roles. - Maybe you serve larger customers or work on different kinds of projects. - Maybe you support the technology needs of a specific business unit rather than what we might deem as working in corporate IT. - Maybe you focus on storage and high-level architecture rather than only virtualization. It could be a chance to learn and go deeper in new areas. + Did the focus of the overall team change (which can trickle down and impact your job function)? - Maybe you’re part of a technology team that primarily manages the outsourced pieces of the technology stack for your company. So instead of working with just employees of your company you now work with consulting firms and external vendors. + Ryan says we can still be intentional about relationships and he illustrates the necessary intentionality with the story behind his pursuit of a new role. - Ryan was intentional about his desire to join a new team after the reorganization, but it didn’t work out on the timeline he wanted. He remained patient and in constant, transparent communication with a specific leader who would eventually advocate for him with the hiring manager. - Just doing our job can be difficult when we’re in a challenging situation like a manager we do not get along with, trying to evolve with a top-level strategy change, etc. This can involve internal politics. Stay the course. - Ryan tells us about a lesson he learned when interviewing for a new role he wanted. - “Maybe be a little bit more vocal. Pat yourself on the back in a concise way. Again…go back to your journal, know your metrics, and stick by them.” – Ryan Conley, on interviewing and humility + Nick says the intentionality behind building relationships applies to your relationship with your boss (a new boss or your current boss that has not changed). This also applies to new teammates! What are the strengths in the people you see around you? Who volunteers to help? Who asks questions when others will not? - Ryan shares a story about 2 peers who on the surface seemed to disagree a lot but ended up making each other better (and smarter) by often taking opposing sides on a topic. When one of them left the company, the other person missed getting that perspective and intellectual challenge. - Ryan suggests we pay attention to the personalities of team members and the kinds of questions they ask. If a specific teammate tends to do all the talking in meetings, find ways to enable others to speak up who have valuable perspectives but may be quieter. - This at its heart is about upleveling others. We can do that when we join a new team, but we can also do this for former teammates by keeping in touch with them over time. This could apply to former teammates who still work at the same company as well as those who have left the company. - Ryan tells us a story about when he first made the transition from working in IT operations to getting hired at a technology vendor in a very different role. - “It’s very different being face-to-face as a consultant, face-to-face as a vendor. And I had a buddy. He started going back 11 years almost to the day here. We were each other’s lifeline…. He would have a bad day, and he would call me. Most of the time I was just there to listen…. And then the next week it was my turn, and I would call him…. So having a buddy in these change situations I think is a great piece of advice.” – Ryan Conley - It can be easy to fall out of touch with people we no longer interact with on a daily or weekly basis. This takes some effort. We’ve met people who try to setup a 1-1 with someone in their professional network once every 1-2 weeks. + Ryan has a tremendous amount of empathy for others who have recently had a child, for example. We can buddy up with specific professional or life experience and take the opportunity to learn from them. - Ryan refers to building an “alumni network” of people you want to remain close with over time. While this helps build our own set of professional connections, we can do this by mentoring others as well (a chance to give back, which is usually much less of a time commitment than we think). Ryan has mentored a number of new college graduates and managed to keep up with their progress over time. Listen to the way he describes the career progression of his mentees and the long-term relationships it produced. - We might be mentoring others (on our own team or beyond). This could act as relatable experience for a future role as a team lead or people manager, but highlighting this experience to your manager is something you should do in those career conversations. - In those 1-1s with your manager you are asking how you are doing but also how you can do better. Sometimes that means doing more of something you have done in the past. Ryan reminds us that the journal is a tracking mechanism for specific actions and their impact. Whether it’s mentoring or helping the manager with hiring or candidate evaluation, be sure to track it! + There might be a gap in expertise on your team that you can fill (either because you have a specific skill or because you learned a new skill to fill that gap). - When joining a new team, do some observing and stay humble before you declare there is a gap and that you are the one to fill it. - Ryan says we can raise gaps with our manager. For example, maybe there is only one person on the team who knows how to do something. Could you pair with that person and cover them while they are on vacation? - “I think it goes back to recognizing that you cannot learn it all and then revaluating…what do I need to learn? So, there’s certain functions that you have to know how to do, and that’s where your manager’s going to help you set those expectations…. We’re in technology, so as a technologist, what do you want to learn? What do you want to do more of? And that could be a gap that you see, and you have that conversation….” – Ryan Conley - If there is not an opportunity at work to learn what you want to learn (i.e. your manager might not support you doing more of specific work, etc.), you can learn it on your own time and then re-evaluate longer term what you want to do.
59:46 – Shifting Job Roles or Job Level Changes* We talked about this a little bit earlier. Maybe you stay an individual contributor, move into leadership, or change leadership levels entirely within an organization. + Ryan talks about the new expectations when you change your daily role. There are expectations we put on ourselves and those expectations put on us by our leaders. There are both opportunities and challenges. - Ryan shares that he has been approached in the past to lead a team, but when this has happened, he took the time to think through what he wanted (his career ladder, his motivations, and his desired focus). - “Leading people is not something that I want to currently focus on. I know what I’m motivated by. I’m a technologist at heart. I want to keep learning, and I personally like the technology that I’m focused on right now. And it’s not that leadership would necessarily remove technology entirely…. It’s just it would be a different focus area. And I think in your career journey it’s worth just kind of keeping tabs on where you’re at in your career (the ladder of change that we keep mentioning, that lifecycle)…. Do you want to go up the ladder as part of your lifecycle and get into a management role? I think mentorship can be very fulfilling. I think leading people can be very fulfilling. But in my case, I’ve decided I still want to stay an individual contributor. There’s still aspirations that I have there….It’s ok to say no is really what I’m getting at…. Really think about the job that you’re in at the company that you’re in. What are the opportunities within? What motivates you? And stay true to that.” – Ryan Conley - Ryan has said no to being a people leader as well as to technical marketing roles. He had a desire to get through the principal program. He encourages listeners to think about whether they would be happy in 1-2 years if they took a new role before making the final decision. + Nick mentions the above is excellent when you have the choice to take a new role. But what if it’s forced on you as the result of an organizational change? - We can recognize where we are in the career lifecycle even if an organizational change places us in a new role that was not our choice. - Make sure you understand what the new role is, and think about how you can align it with where you are in the career lifecycle (including the goals you have and the things you want). - Nick had a manager who encouraged his team to align their overall life purpose to the current job role or assignment. In doing this, it will be easier to prevent intertwining your identity with your job or your company. - We may have to put out heads down and just do the work for a while. But maybe there is an opportunity to align with the things you want and the type of work you want to do which is not immediately obvious. - In this job market, if you are employed, be thankful and do a great job. - Ryan hopes listeners can think back to an unexpected change that happened which led to new opportunities later. - “Pause, recollect, align your focus with your new manager, align your focus with either the changing mission statement or the current mission statement…. What is fulfilling you personally (your own internal values)? If they are being conflicted, I think there’s a greater answer to some of your challenges, but they’re not being conflicted how can you be your best self in a company without the company being all of yourself? …The cultural identity of the workplace and the home can sometimes be a little too close, a little to intertwined…. Maybe you’re just way too emotionally invested in your day job and it’s just a good moment to reset…. What is your value system? Why? And then how can you be your best self in your workplace? And I think far too often we want to have our dream job…. ‘A dream job is still a job. There are going to be days when it is just a really difficult day because it’s a really difficult job. It’s still your dream job, but every job is going to have a difficult day.’” – Ryan Conley - Every job will be impacted by some kind of organizational change multiple times throughout your career.
1:06:18 – Parting Thoughts* Ryan closes with a funny anecdote about a person who worked on the same team as him that he never had the chance to meet in person. In this case, the person invested more in their former team than meeting members of their new team. * Maybe a good interview question for those seeking new roles could be something about organizational changes and how often they are happening at the company. * Ryan encourages us to lead with empathy in this job market and consider how we can help others in our network who may be seeking new roles. + Ryan likes to share job alerts on LinkedIn and mentions it has been great to see the formation of alumni groups. + “Share your rolodex. Help people connect the dots. And lead with empathy.” – Ryan Conley * To follow up on this conversation with Ryan, contact him on LinkedIn.
Mentioned in the Outro* A special thanks to former guest Daniel Lemire and listener Megan Wills for sharing thoughts on organizational change that we were able to include in this episode! * Ryan told us we can lead with empathy when helping others looking for work in this job market, but Nick thinks it’s empathy at work when we’re asking a new boss or team member how we can help. + If you want to bring more empathy to the workplace, check out Episode 278 – Uncovering Empathy: The Greatest Skill of an Inclusive Leader with Marni Coffey (1/3) in which guest Marni Coffey tells us about empathy as her greatest skill. It’s full of excellent examples. * If you’re looking for other guest experiences with organizational change, here are some recommended episodes: + Episode 210 – A Collection of Ambiguous Experiments with Shailvi Wakhlu (1/2) – Shailvi talks about a forced change of role that was actually an opportunity in disguise + Episode 168 – Hired and Acquired with Mike Wood (1/2) – Mike Wood’s company was acquired, and the amount of travel went up soon after to increase his stress. + Episode 169 – A Thoughtful Personal Sabbatical with Mike Wood (2/2) – Mike Wood shares another acquisition story that this time ended with him taking a sabbatical. + Episode 84 -Management Interviews and Transitions with Brad Pinkston – Brad Pinkston shares what he likes to do when working for a new boss.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Imagine your work day starting off like any other only to find you’ve been laid off. What would you do next?
Dave Stevens lived this reality a couple of years ago and joins us this week in episode 354 to share the lessons from that experience. We’ll take you through how Dave processed the news of being laid off, the warning signs he missed, when he knew it was time to begin searching for a new role, how he thought about what to do next, and the critical importance of his personal and professional network throughout this process.
Regardless of your age or the size of your professional network, Dave shares actionable suggestions for building professional connections that we all may be overlooking.
Original Recording Date: 10-28-2025
Topics – Background and the Impact of a Layoff Event, Initial Forward Progress and Reliance on a Professional Network, Skills Gaps and Unexpected Positives, Elements of the Personal and Professional Network, Reaching Closure and Reflecting Back on the Lessons2:27 – Background and the Impact of a Layoff Event* Dave Stevens is a Field Solutions Architect at Pure Storage. In this role, Dave is a technical overlay for pre-sales technical personnel at Pure across North America. This is the role Dave took after he was impacted by a layoff. * What was Dave’s role before he was impacted by a layoff event? + For context, the layoff event we discuss in this episode took place around 2.5 years before this recording. + Dave was classified as a systems engineer or pre-sales technical resource at his employer supporting multiple account reps. It was more of a solutions architect type of role, and Dave highlights his entry into this organization and role was via acquisition. + Was there an element of technical marketing to the role? Nick mentions that Dave often had to attend trade shows in this role. - Dave had a virtualization background and went to a lot of events to discuss how his company’s products integrated with those different technology ecosystems. * The day Dave was laid off started as a normal day at his home office. His boss was based in Europe, so most 1-1 calls were usually late in the day his boss’s time (early afternoon for Dave). + A meeting popped up that was earlier than usual, but Dave didn’t think anything of it. + Right after Dave joined the remote session for the meeting, someone from HR joined followed by Dave’s boss. + Dave wasn’t quite sure what to expect and didn’t know what was happening. He didn’t know if it was a layoff coming or some other kind of situation happening at his company. + When Dave was laid off, they told him it was not for performance reasons, but there weren’t really any other details provided on why he was being laid off. + “So, at that point it was just like, ‘what do I do?’” – Dave Stevens, on receiving layoff news + After receiving the news, Dave’s access to company systems like e-mail was quickly cut off. He went downstairs and spent the rest of his day relaxing. Dave did not want to talk about what happened any further that first day. * Did Dave struggle with separating his identity from his employer or the job he held at all when this happened? + Dave says he did, at least a little bit. + Dave wanted to be successful in whatever role he found himself, and the reason he was in the systems engineering role at the time of the layoff event is a result of his drive to be successful in the years leading up to that role. + “I also wanted to make sure that…the people that I worked with that I enjoyed working with. If I didn’t enjoy working with them, then there was no reason to continue staying there. So that’s part of my identity on how I interact with work.” – Dave Stevens + In the early days of Twitter (now X), Dave defined an identity there. He also created a personal blog. Dave says his identity was often tied to where he worked. + “Once this all happened, I just kind of cut that off. And I needed some time to really digest what I just went through that day.” – Dave Stevens * Is there something Dave wishes people had done for him when this first happened? + Dave says he wishes he would have listened to his wife. Before experiencing the layoff event, a number of colleagues who had entered the company through acquisition like Dave were either leaving or had been laid off (including his boss being laid off). At the time, Dave didn’t think much about these events. + Dave’s wife had encouraged him to look for other jobs before the layoff happened, and he feels he should have listened. + “It’s much easier finding a job when you have a job. There’s not as much pressure on you. You can take your time and really find the job that you want. That’s the one thing that kind of took me by surprise….” – Dave Stevens * Did Dave’s wife also point him in a direction or provide feedback on the type of work he should pursue? + We’ve spoken to previous guests who had spouses that provided insight into the type of work that made them happy. + Dave feels like there has been an element of this in place since he and his wife got married. - When Dave got a job opportunity to relocate to the New Hampshire area, his wife had some interesting feedback. - “It’s great that you’re going to make more than you’re making at the job you are currently, but I don’t want you to take a job just because of money. I want you to take a job because it’s something you’re interested in doing and you’re going to be happy at. So, I’ve always kept that in the back of my mind every time I go and look for a job….” – Dave Stevens, quoting his wife’s advice - Dave considered this same advice when pursuing his current role at Pure. Because he enjoyed meeting and speaking with people during the interview process, the decision to accept the role was easy. Liking the people he would be working with was more important than a pay increase.
10:53 – Initial Forward Progress and Reliance on a Professional Network* How long did Dave need to process before taking the first actions toward a new role? + For the first 3 weeks or so, Dave relaxed a little bit. There were a number of projects at home that he needed to do and some that he wanted to do. Working on the projects helped take his mind off what had happened. + Dave mentions he was given a severance for about 3 months and wanted to find a new role within that time period if possible. But if he could not find something in that time period, it would not be the end of the world. + Dave tells us it was easier to find work when he was laid off than it is currently. Close to the time of this recording, AWS announced job cuts for up to 30,000 people. + He made the conscious decision after those first few weeks to spend the first part of the day searching for new jobs and then continued working on different projects in the afternoons. * How did Dave know who to reach out to first? Nick argues that most of us likely don’t have a list of who we would call if something like this happened. + When Dave came to the New England area, he started working for Dell in tech marketing. Through his work, Dave built a tight bond with many of his co-workers. + Dave remembers sending a text message to many of his former co-workers (none of which were still at Dell) asking if they knew of any open opportunities. Dave wanted to understand what former colleagues were working on now and what the culture of their company was like. He started by seeking out people he already enjoyed working with and analyzed whether it made sense to go and work with them again. * Was Dave open to different types of roles in his job search, or did that not matter? + It had to be interesting work and involve people he wanted to work with or enjoyed working with. Dave says as long as it was something in the tech field, it didn’t matter too much. + Dave began his career in systems administration and tech support and had experience in the storage industry, with backups, and with Active Directory to name a few areas. He had also done technical marketing and was open to returning to it. Dave also looked at pre-sales systems engineering or solution architect roles. + What about taking roles that moved him deeper into a business unit like product management? - Dave says product management is interesting work, but depending on the company, the work may not always have the technical aspects he likes. - Many of the product managers at Pure are quite technical, but most of the product management roles he observed at other companies were not as technical as he would like. - “It just didn’t interest me. It wasn’t technical enough in nature for me.” – Dave Stevens, on moving into product management * It sounds like Dave had done a good job of keeping in touch with people in his professional network over time. + “I have always made sure to have a small group of folks that I can just reach out to at any time and…chat about anything…. I’ve always made sure to have that…. I didn’t talk to them all the time, but we all interacted in some way, shape, or form whether it was an e-mail or text messaging…even some stuff on LinkedIn. We all kind of kept in touch…. I had people that I could fall back on and reach out to and get advice from if I needed to. This is the time where I really needed some advice on where to go to next.” – Dave Stevens + Dave says he was lucky enough to find a new job before the end of his 3 months of severance pay. + Dave’s wife commented that she wasn’t too worried about him. She knew he had a strong professional network. * Did anyone in Dave’s professional network ask him what he wanted to do next, or did they just start making recommendations based on what they knew about him? + Dave says it was a little bit of both. + Some people pointed Dave to specific open roles in the same group where they worked (still in tech, of course), while others directed him to the company job site and offered to act as a referral for him. + Dave tells us he’s very willing to give others a referral. + “I want to make sure that people that I know and I like to work with come to work with me.” – Dave Stevens + Dave says he also turned on the Open to Work banner on LinkedIn. - While this did result in many recruiters reaching out to Dave, many of the opportunities they contacted him about were not interesting. - Dave is hearing from many in our industry that bots are reaching out to people and trying to take advantage of them. His advice is that we need to be guarded in our interactions on LinkedIn as a result to avoid scams.
19:10 – Skills Gaps and Unexpected Positives* What kinds of skills gaps did Dave see when seeking new opportunities? + For context, this was roughly 2.5 years ago. Dave says at that time, AI wasn’t as helpful as it is today and was not something that was interesting to him. - Dave tells us he uses AI heavily today compared to back then. + Dave felt confident in the knowledge and skillset he had built through years of industry experience. Ideally, he would land a new role that overlapped those areas, but if a new role required coming up to speed quickly, he would do what was needed. + Dave started looking at public cloud and certifications related to Azure and AWS. - “Although it was interesting, it wasn’t really what I wanted to do.” – Dave Stevens, on public cloud technologies compared to the technologies with which he was familiar * What were some of the unexpected positive outcomes of getting laid off even though it was difficult in the beginning? + One positive, according to Dave, is the amount of people in his network he was able to reach out to on LinkedIn. So many people were open to helping. - The only negative Dave thinks is maybe not acting quickly enough in starting his job search. + “It’s really about building not only your personal network but your professional network. And my professional network really came to my rescue and helped me understand that…it’s not the end of the world. You’re going to make it. You’re going to do fine. But let me know if there’s any way that I can help you in that journey that you’re on right now.” – Dave Stevens * Were there any things Dave and his wife had done (conscious or unconscious) to prepare for the layoff event based on market trends? + Dave says his wife is very good at managing their home budget, and since they got married, they intentionally build a financial nest egg they could lean on in the event Dave was out of a job.
22:27 – Elements of the Personal and Professional Network* What are some of the things Dave is even more intentional about now with his professional network than he was in the past? + Dave received some great advice from a co-worker to reach out to one person in his professional network each week. Many times, Dave will do this on LinkedIn or even via text if he has the person’s number. + “Keep that personal connection going. As much as AI is taking over, as much as we do a lot of things on Zoom, I’ve learned over my years of working in the industry that there’s nothing better than the face-to-face interaction…. It’s so much more fun and relaxing to just get out of the office or home office…and just sit down with people and keep that personal connection going.” – Dave Stevens + Dave mentions he likes to get together with co-workers in the area every now and then, even if they have the same conversation in person that they would have had on Zoom. It’s different and more relaxing. * How can younger listeners who may be trying to break into the industry build a professional network when they might not have a deep contact list or large network like someone in the industry for a long time? + Nick and Dave talked about this before hitting record and thought it could be helpful to share during our discussion. + Dave has a newfound perspective on this from being around his nephews and nieces. The job market is very different today than when Dave first began his career. + “Nowadays, resumes just go into a black hole, and you don’t necessarily know if you’re still in the mix for a current job.” – Dave Stevens + Dave has encouraged his nephews and nieces to leverage their personal network to build a professional network. He may know someone who knows someone in the field they want to pursue, for example. + “There’s no shame or harm in utilizing all your resources…. Utilize your personal network because you don’t have the professional network built up yet to help you get that foot in the door.” – Dave Stevens - Young people could even use their parents as a way to broaden their own network. It’s an opportunity to get introduced to others. - Dave uses the example of a chance meeting at a concert that could result in a new connection for someone. + Nick would encourage younger listeners to get out to in-person meetup groups on any interesting topic. Go ask people what they are learning, why they work where they work, how they got there, and see if they have advice for you. - Dave agrees and has leveraged both local professional groups and meetup groups in the New Hampshire area to meet new people. This is expanding your local professional network as Dave calls it (not to be confused with your global professional network) and is a great thing to do when you move to a new place. - You never know when a conversation at a local meetup might help you get a warm lead on a job that will be posted soon. * Did the layoff come up in interviews at all? How did Dave handle that? + Dave says some people brought it up. In other cases, he brought it up in conversation, wanting people to know he was not let go for doing something wrong.
28:22 – Reaching Closure and Reflecting Back on the Lessons* How did Dave know he had reached closure on the layoff situation? + Dave thinks he was motivated to take action toward finding a job due to a fear of boredom. He had been working on various projects but knew he would run out of them at some point. + Dave had enough time to adjust to not having a job, and he was ready to begin doing some kind of work again. + “I didn’t want to get bored. I hate being bored. I hate being bored at work. I hate being bored in general. That’s really what the impetus was for me to go out and start looking…that fear of relaxing for too long and being bored.” – Dave Stevens + At this point Dave reached further into his professional network beyond that first group of friends and former colleagues he mentioned earlier. + Does taking action in a direction mean we’re ready to move on from what happened? Is it when we have to discuss what happened in an interview, or is it something else? How do we measure this? - Dave says it was easier to accept and felt mostly behind him when he was actively looking for a new position. He knew only he could take the actions to move forward. - The feeling of what happened before went completely away when Dave accepted a new job at Pure. - Dave feels he was very lucky to find a role. - Lining up multiple interviews gave Dave momentum and a feeling of positivity. - “I feel that people understand that I have the skills for these jobs. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have gotten 5 job interviews as quickly after I really started taking action to look for a job. So, I got lucky.” – Dave Stevens * If Dave had to do it all again, what would he do differently? + Dave feels he has about 10 more years left working in the tech industry. + For now, Dave enjoys the job he has, wants to excel doing it, and wants to continue growing. + Dave currently works for the best boss he’s had to date. - “He not only pushes me, but he pushes our entire team to just get better….” – Dave Stevens, on his current manager + Dave tells us he does not want to be a people manager or a product manager. - “I want to continue to excel and expand my depth of knowledge across the virtualization industry and the storage industry.” – Dave Stevens - The work at Pure is very interesting to Dave, which is also motivating him to continue learning and excelling. Part of this is using more AI-focused tooling as it becomes available to use. * What does Dave think the role of AI tools is in helping with one’s job search? + There are a number of tools out there we can leverage to analyze our resume. Dave suggests keeping track of which tool we’ve used to analyze our resume because that could be used to train a model. + In addition to this, use AI to research companies. Use them to help you understand what companies are like and what their culture is like. Many people in a sales role within Pure, for example, use an AI tool of some kind to learn more about their customers. * Nick reiterates the nuances of acquisitions. Dave worked for a company that was acquired by another company. Over time there was a pattern of people from the company which was acquired being laid off. Perhaps this is a sign we should watch for and prepare. + Dave says we need to be looking at and listening for the signs coming toward us. He listens to his wife more intently when she makes a suggestion. + Dave continues to check in with people in his professional network and offers advice when they need it. * Dave would encourage all of us to use our personal and professional network if we end up in the situation he was in (experiencing a layoff). * “Not everybody is going to be able to help you or is willing to reach out and help you, but when someone does…don’t just brush it aside as they want something out of this. They probably genuinely want to help you. So, take advantage….” – Dave Stevens * If you want to follow up with Dave on this conversation, + Connect with Dave on LinkedIn + Check out Dave’s blog site
Mentioned in the Outro* The three week period Dave took to work on projects may have been what gave him the clarity on the type of work he did and did not want to do once he began his search. * Dave mentions getting some great advice from his wife and her emphasis on him pursuing roles that would make him happy and be enjoyable work. This echoes something similar to what Brad Christian shared in Episode 264 – Back to Basics: Technology Bets and Industry Relationships with Brad Christian (2/2) when it came to choosing what to do next after a layoff. * If you enjoyed this format and want to hear other stories of people recounting their layoff experience, check out these episodes featuring Jason Gass. He talks about the lost art of supporting others in episode 343, which aligns very well with Dave’s advice on building our personal and professional network. + Episode 342 – Planting Seeds: Networking and Maneuvering Unexpected Job Loss with Jason Gass (1/2) + Episode 343 – The Lost Art: Marketplace Heartbeat and Finding Closure after a Layoff with Jason Gass (2/2)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
How can we help recruiters advocate for us in a tough job market?
According to people industry veteran Christy Honeycutt, our guest in episode 353, it starts with being kind and translating your experience into something a recruiter can understand. And even more importantly, it takes practice.
In part 2 of our discussion with Christy, she translates deep experience in talent acquisition and recruitment that gives us insight into the current job market. You’ll hear more details about the nuances of RPOs (recruitment process outsourcers), the difference between job hugging and job abandonment, and the importance of personal branding and differentiation. Stay until the end when Christy shares her reasons for turning down C-suite positions and how clarity on her long-term goals is carrying her forward into what’s next.
Now that you’ve heard someone model it for you, how will you translate your own experience?
If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Christy, check out Episode 352 – People First: Systematizing Go-to-Market for Your Role with Christy Honeycutt (1/2).
Original Recording Date: 09-30-2025
Topics – A Deeper Look at Recruitment Process Outsourcing (RPO), Translating Your Experience with 3 Wins, Bad Actors and Leadership in the People Industry, Today’s Job Market and Life Outside the C-Suite2:56 – A Deeper Look at Recruitment Process Outsourcing (RPO)* When it comes to RPO (recruitment process outsourcing), is this a one-size-fits-all approach, or does it show up differently depending on what a company needs? + In Christy’s experience, most RPO organizations offer services like executive search, but they may offer full RPO, which usually involves hiring more than 500 people per year. + Normally an RPO brings a mix of skills to the table. A client may want the RPO to take only talent acquisition or may want to control offer management, but they may want the RPO to take everything (attracting new talent, offer management, coordinating with HR for new employee onboarding). - “If a company wants it a certain way, they can stop it at a certain point…. But most RPOs, full RPOs, is attraction to offer accepted and then it tees over to the HR team.” – Christy Honeycutt + John has worked for companies where the recruitment or talent acquisition personnel were marked as contractors in the internal global address book but had company e-mail addresses. Would this mean the personnel are contracting directly with a company or working through an RPO? - Christy says it could be either scenario. When she managed an RPO earlier in her career, they were most successful when the client encouraged the RPO to brand as the company. - Someone might indicate they do recruitment for a specific company on LinkedIn but be an employee of an RPO. - Christy tells us how important it is for the RPO to understand an organization’s mission, vision, benefits, and culture because the RPO is often attracting talent and selling people on why they should apply and interview. - “When you think about recruitment and talent acquisition, regardless, it’s a lot of marketing because you’ve got a really cool position and you’ve got to find the perfect fit.” – Christy Honeycutt
5:55 – Translating Your Experience with 3 Wins* Right now, recruiters and talent acquisition professionals have a distinct challenge. Many resumes look the same because candidates are using AI tools. + “What people think is helping set them apart is actually making them look more similar. So now you’ve got recruiters and talent acquisition; they don’t know if these are fake resumes. They don’t know if they’re real. And they’re getting on the call with these people and finding out they are fake; they don’t have any of this requirement.” – Christy Honeycutt * Christy shares a little secret about learning recruitment. She gives the example of a recruiter needing to recruit for an executive level role in technology. + Recruiters are encouraged to seek out and find the C-players to practice asking them questions, understand nuance, and grasp the terminology. This is a training exercise. + Following this process, a recruiter would then have more credibility once they speak to the A-players they actually want to hire. + “What I would encourage is if you are a C-player, you’re not going to know it. Just be kind and know that the person you’re talking to has never held a technical role (probably, most likely)…and might not understand half the stuff that you guys do. The acronyms aren’t going to be the same. Just be gracious with them because the more you can help them translate your experience, the better you’re going to be positioned to get you over the line…. They don’t want to talk to 10 people to get 1 hire. They want to talk to 3 people to get a hire…. And remember that the TA, HR, recruiters, whatever you want to call them…there’s a pretty good chance that they want to help you and that they’re doing the job because they like people. And I think they get a bad rap.” – Christy Honeycutt + Christy tells us about something called a slate (a group of 3-5 individuals who apply for a job that a recruiter will go and interview). Recruiters are using AI to help filter through applications. + “The biggest thing I can tell you is be your own person. Be your own, authentic person. Have your stories of how you’ve shown up and shown out…. I tell everybody for every job that you’ve worked at, you need to have 3 wins…. Figure out…your top things that you accomplished at each role and have that and be ready to speak to it. And then…ask questions. Interview them too…. Make sure it’s a culture fit for you.” – Christy Honeycutt + Christy says things like the great resignation and quiet quitting are just behaviors that get repeated over time. Right now, there is a fearful state of job hugging. - “We’re job hugging. No one is hugging a job. People are trying to stay employed in the market. That’s all it is.” – Christy Honeycutt - Christy says if you are staying somewhere because you have a job and are not happy, figure out how to make yourself happy by determining it is not a fit, understanding your passions, and beginning your exit plan. - “Companies are not our families. They are going to let us go. It’s going to come down to the business.” – Christy Honeycutt - It’s important to keep the human element in mind if we are seeking a new role (the human element on both sides). + Christy tells the story of a senior recruiter who called her about a conversation with a job candidate, and Christy knew the person was burned out, bored, and curious. - “High performers are always open minded and curious, but if you fall in that category, figure it out sooner than later so you’re not burning yourself out because then you’re in a very dangerous situation. That job hugging is going to be job abandonment. You’re going to get to boot. It’s not going to be the other way around. It’s just kind of level setting with your psyche.” – Christy Honeycutt
11:28 – Bad Actors and Leadership in the People Industry* Going back to recruiters getting practice and experience from interviewing candidates, Nick looks at this from the lens that everyone needs at bats to gain experience. Though it may be batting practice for a recruiter, it is also practice for the candidate. We don’t practice interviewing very often. + Christy agrees it is practice on both sides and emphasizes that kindness is key. + She’s had multiple conversations with recruiters who didn’t understand why a hiring manager did not want a specific candidate. We might never know all the effort a recruiter put into promoting us with a hiring manager. + Some recruiters, however, should not be in their roles. Christy tells us about a time in her career when she was referred to as “The Kraken.” - Christy managed a tight team of talent acquisition professionals who respected and loved her as a boss. They knew she had high expectations of her team. Christy’s team members would have to launch programs for global clients within 30-60 days sometimes, for example. - “So, my team had to be kind of like special ops because we managed the globe, and it was high pressure.” – Christy Honeycutt - As she progressed in her career, Christy would be given individuals who were not performing on other teams. Before managing someone out of the business, Christy always gave people a chance to redeem themselves because until she met the person and they worked for her, she was only hearing one side of the story. * Christy recounts being asked to join an RPO to clean it up. + She met with each recruiter to understand the key metrics and performance indicators. + Christy tells us that for any job opening (or job requisition) a recruiter was carrying at this time, they should be submitting 3-5 candidates for each job, and a manager would expect this within 2 weeks of the job opening. There was a specific recruiter who only submitted 2 candidates per week across 15 job openings, and Christy recounts the performance conversation with this person. + “There are some people that are in roles that they shouldn’t be that take advantage and kind of sit back….” – Christy Honeycutt + As people gain seniority in talent acquisition and recruitment, sometimes you deal with people’s egos. This is the exception and not the rule. * John mentions it would probably be difficult to coast based on one’s reputation in talent acquisition. Based on the metrics for success and open job requisitions, it should be obvious who is doing well and who isn’t. + Christy says this goes back to leadership. Maybe these individuals never had a boss who would hold them accountable. + “If we go back to managers and leaders, most of them aren’t trained, and a lot of them want to be liked.” – Christy Honeycutt + Christy is the daughter of a Marine. This means the mission gets accomplished no matter what with the fewest amount of casualties. It’s her job as the leader of a team to keep them focused on the mission and accomplishing it. Removing someone from the team may be the best option to keep the rest of the team on track in accomplishing a mission. - “You’re only as strong as your weakest link, so if your weakest link is not holding themselves accountable and respecting their team, then they’re putting everybody else’s jobs at risk. And unfortunately, there are bad actors in every industry, in every role, in every organization…and we’ve all seen them. They are like cancer. They really hurt retention. They hurt elevation. They are usually the ones taking credit, taking too long at lunch, whatever the case may be…we’ve all seen them…. It all comes down to behaviors.” – Christy Honeycutt + Christy thinks leaders want to be liked and are afraid of having a complaint filed against them. - For example, people might file a complaint because they were not doing their job and their manager held them accountable for not doing it. - “It’s weird to be in the people industry for so long because it’s just behaviors. It’s just humans.” – Christy Honeycutt + Before someone shows up for work, we have no idea what may be going on in their life outside work. Christy encourages us to meet one another with more grace. - “Those of you out there, if you’re lucky enough to have a job and be employed, do the job. Because there’s a lot of people that don’t that will come in and do a better job than you. Honor yourself, honor your employer, and show up. But unfortunately, there’s bad actors.” – Christy Honeycutt * John directs the conversation back to hiring cycles. He has heard it’s beneficial to apply for a job opening quickly and to be in the first wave of candidates but didn’t really think about the why behind it. + Christy tells us this varies based on the position, the job requirements, location, salary, and other factors. In fact, recruiters often have to reset unrealistic expectations from hiring managers (i.e. what a specific role salary should be). + “If you think about a client and them opening a position, they probably needed that position 30 days before it was ever approved. So, there’s already a ticking time on the recruiter whether that’s fair or not because in the manager’s mind that role opened the second they thought they needed it. Not when they requested it, not when it got approved, but when they realized in their brain, ‘I need this position filled,’ that’s when the clock starts for them. So, it’s an unfair disadvantage for a recruiter.” – Christy Honeycutt + Listen to Christy’s description of a best-in-class 4-week process from job opening to making the right candidate an offer.
20:45 – Today’s Job Market and Life Outside the C-Suite* If we look at this through the lens of the current job market, how much do recruiters need to sell candidates on roles when there are hundreds of applications to sort through for a single job opening? + “Tech is like recruitment, like marketing. It’s always the first to go…until they realize…it went, and we need it. So, it’s a boomerang effect with those industries…always has been, always will be.” – Christy Honeycutt + Christy tells the story of being at the HR Tech conference with a young lady who was recently laid off from a tech company. This person walked from booth to booth and began networking with people in search of new roles and was able to leverage Christy to get some introductions. She had 5 interviews over the course of the 3-day event. + “In the job market today, with recruiters not able to tell if it’s an AI resume or not, with them being overloaded with a vast amount of resumes…the best thing that anybody can do is make sure that your personal brand is on point. Make sure that whatever it is that you’re doing…you’re sharing, you’re engaging your community, and that you’re seen doing it.” – Christy Honeycutt + Christy was part of the same tech startup mentioned above and also lost her job. But she had been working on her personal brand before that happened. Christy was speaking at events, sharing with her community, doing podcasts, and doing many go-to-market things on behalf of her employer. - Christy’s heart goes out to others in her field who have been out of work for multiple years. - Within 3 days of losing her role, Christy was offered 3 different C-suite positions. She turned them all down. - “I’ve had that moment where I’ve realized that where I want to go and where I am are 2 different places…. If I put my focus on something, my energy is going to flow in that direction, and I need to make sure that’s the direction I want to go…. Do I want to go be c-suite and kill myself for the next 4 years? …But the reason that gave me confidence is I’m 3 days without a job. I’ve got several job offers. And I realized, they don’t care how I work with them. They just want to work with me, so why don’t I go out on my own?” – Christy Honeycutt, on the internal discussions she’s having after encountering job loss + Christy understands she’s in a gifted place only because she put in the work of giving back to her community before she was in a tough spot. - Her efforts include things like hosting Inside the C-Suite and doing free mentoring and coaching for others. - “It’s because of all the goodwill I’ve done. My community paid it back tenfold. So set yourself apart in whatever it is that you’re doing…. Where we are today is you have to have a differentiator, or you’re going to be sitting on the shelf for 5 years.” – Christy Honeycutt * Christy mentioned previously that it’s lonely when someone takes a C-suite role. How did her conversations with executives on Inside the C-Suite together with her experience in talent acquisition and recruitment impact her decision to not take a C-suite role? + Christy knows that she doesn’t do anything halfway. If she were to take a C-suite role, she would be working 80 hours per week and traveling nonstop. + Christy and her partner want to slow the pace down for their family, take time to travel, and do more purposeful things. She shares a story about Matthew McConaughey wanting to make the shift from romantic comedies to more serous roles to illustrate a shift of priority and focus. + “Yeah, it crossed my mind. But it does not align with my long-term goal…. I realized I have a choice. You know, the universe has brought a lot of stuff to me. Is it because it’s meant for me, or is it noise?” – Christy Honeycutt + Christy has shown up, given to her community in a visible way, and found her voice. But taking a C-suite role right now is not where she wants to be. + Some of the job offers Christy received came from people who had been on her podcast. Christy tells more of the story of being at HR Tech and the reactions people in the industry had to her being on the market. Christy plans to continue conversations with those people about ways they can work together moving forward. + “I’m really good at certain things, which you guys have broken down and helped me understand. I repeatedly get asked for those things, and those are the things I like to do. So why not go do that? Why not go be a consultant and do the things that I really like to do for people and not do the things I don’t like to do…? …I can just go do the fun stuff that they need my specialization in.” – Christy Honeycutt + Christy wants to stay true to herself and honor the decision to increase bandwidth for her family. + Many of the C-level executives Christy speaks to on her podcast love what they do, but they’ve had to learn to put themselves first. - “I hear this more often than not. When they first start their organization, it’s business business business. Their health fails. Their family fails. So, the ones that actually made it and recovered through that little spike and actually make it out on the other side very quickly flip to ‘take care of my body (my temple), my soul, my family, then my business. It’s a battle for them.” – Christy Honeycutt - At the time of this recording, Christy is thinking of starting her own firm, so she hopes she can take it slow enough to avoid these pitfalls. * When we decide to slow the pace and do more of what we enjoy, can reflecting on those 3 wins from each previous job help us be confident that we can still get those wins without running at a hectic pace? Did Christy do this when thinking about what she wanted to do? + Christy says she did not think about these for herself even though it would be her coaching to others in need of advice. + “What I found interesting is that when you’re looking for an answer, if you actually open your eyes, it’s right there. It plays back to you. It plays back to you in conversations you have with people…. You often say what you need and what you want and where you’re at, but you don’t comprehend it. But if you hear someone you love, that you trust, repeat it back to you…it’s almost like it gives you permission to accept it.” – Christy Honeycutt + Sometimes instead of giving people advice, we need to act as a mirror and reflect back what they’ve said. + Christy didn’t need a C-level title. She doesn’t need to go do something to prove she can do it. She’s already done it. Christy understood she was ready for something different, even if it’s a little bit scary to consider going out on one’s own. + “It’s scary to put yourself out there like that, but if you don’t, you’ll never know. I’d rather try and fail and learn than regret and not know.” – Christy Honeycutt * If you want to follow up with Christy on this conversation, you can find here: + On LinkedIn + On her website + On the podcasts she hosts – Inside the C-Suite and StrategicShift
Mentioned in the Outro* Do you have 3 wins from each job or at least the past several jobs you’ve held? And do you know the stories that go along with these?
+ There are prerequisites that must be met before we can speak to our wins in an interview. It starts with documenting our accomplishments on a regular basis.
+ Consider what the 3 wins are from your accomplishment list. Maybe you have more than 3 or need to use a different set of 3 based on a job to which you’re applying.
+ Consider writing the story that goes with each win. It could be a resume bullet, but think of it as more detailed and something you can share in an interview.
+ This is part of drafting a career narrative like Jason Belk suggested in Episode 284 – Draft Your Narrative: Writing and Building a Technical Portfolio with Jason Belk (2/2). We should not only write the draft but gain practice sharing the stories verbally in interviews, possibly conversations with our manager, and maybe even in conversations with industry peers at networking events (if and when appropriate). This is an iterative process!
+ We like looking at conversations with recruiters as opportunities to practice telling our win stories.
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In the discussion with Christy, we heard about her experience losing a job.
- In Christy’s case she had been giving to her network long before this happened in a very visible way.
- Maybe you are doing this in a less visible way. Consider documenting that work, but make the overall intent to help others and impact people positively. It will pay off later when you need help.
- Christy shared an exercise in finding clarity. She knew a C-suite role would not match the pace that was aligned with what her family wanted. It wasn’t just about personal ambition.
- Remember to check out Christy’s podcasts, Inside the C-Suite and StrategicShift.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Go-to-market strategy is something we often associate with a company or its products / services, but what if we could apply go-to-market to our job role?
Christy Honeycutt, a talent acquisition veteran and our guest this week in episode 352, has used this mindset as a personal differentiator starting with her first job in the banking industry. We’ll follow Christy as she describes early experience as a people manager, learn why she developed a people first mentality, and recount the events that kickstarted her career in recruitment.
This story helps us understand what is required to systematize the work we do and how difficult it can be for things that seem easy. Christy will also educate you on the importance of developing AI competence and the impact of recruitment process outsourcing on job candidate experience.
Original Recording Date: 09-30-2025
Topics – Meet Christy Honeycutt, A Go-to-Market Perspective, Beginnings in the Banking Industry, Learning to Systematize and Duplicate Yourself, A People First Approach, Getting into Recruitment2:10 – Meet Christy Honeycutt* Christy Honeycutt has 20 years of talent acquisition experience, go-to-market experience, and some marketing experience sprinkled throughout. * Christy is also the host of two different podcasts: + On Inside the C-Suite, Christy interviews executive leaders to gain insight from life in these roles. + StrategicShift is focused on the future of work, innovation, and AI.
3:17 – A Go-to-Market Perspective* How would Christy define talent acquisition and recruitment and the differences between them? + Recruitment should be thought about as more active. There is a job open with specific requirements which need to be filled based on time constraints. + Talent acquisition is more strategic according to Christy. This would include understanding why a role is vacant, the succession plans, cultural initiatives, and workforce planning. Christy refers to this as “engaging passive pipelines for long-term goals.” + Personnel in talent acquisition and recruitment are usually in those roles because they want to help people, but these roles may look slightly different across companies of various sizes and in different industries. * How would Christy define go-to-market? We hear this term quite often but are not confident that everyone truly understands what this means. + For context, Christy talks about looking at this with a lens across many different departments / internal organizations – marketing, recruitment, and even sales. + “Go-to-market is understanding what is the product and who is the end user…. Am I filling a job? Then I’m going to market for that candidate that fits that job. Am I working for a tech company (which I most recently did)? Then, yes, I need to understand what is our product, who is the end user, who is the buyer…and how can I get this to market for them…to see, to use to buy, and to be delighted in? The go-to-market is really kind of a Frankenstein effect in my opinion. It’s really understanding the value and how it translates and then how you can connect the dots…. Go-to-market for me has just kind of been at my core since I was a kid.” – Christy Honeycutt + For recruitment, the go-to-market is usually set based on an organization’s vision, mission, values, and culture. + Christy uses the example of negotiating with her father (a former Marine) to get what she wanted when she was younger to illustrate that go-to-market can mean understanding how to sell.
7:01 – Beginnings in the Banking Industry* Christy was a cheerleader in high school and got a fully paid scholarship to college, but at age 17, she was diagnosed with cancer. + As a result of the diagnosis, she was not able to attend college. Christy always wanted to be a mom and did not want to ruin her chance to have children. + Christy married her college sweetheart and became a stay-at-home mom of 2 children. - She is now heathy, happy, and thankful she was able to have children. - Christy’s father owned a nonprofit, and even while she was a stay-at-home mom, Christy was involved in marketing for nonprofits as a result. - Christy also was part of the boards of her children’s schools, did volunteer work, and even taught pre-school. * After moving to a new state, Christy needed to get a job to support her children. After applying at a bank, she landed a manager job. + Within 6 months, the bank branch where she worked was the highest producing in the state of Texas. + Christy came up with marketing initiatives to get customers to visit the bank. She gives the example of a yearly Halloween contest. + At one point, the bank was robbed, and Christy learned to lead in stressful situations through this experience. She also learned that she has a photographic memory. * Christy tells us her career really began in banking and then transitioned into marketing. Listen to the story about one of her clients who was a mortgage broker. + Christy had 2 boys in various sports and was wearing herself out between work at the bank and home life. + This mortgage broker sent an e-mail to help Christy get interviews for a role at a different bank. + Christy tells the story of interviewing in the mortgage division of another bank (Prime Lending) close to Halloween. She was dressed as Lucille Ball for an event at her employer and ended up going to the interview in costume. The people who interviewed Christy loved it, and she was offered the job on the spot.
11:40 – Learning to Systematize and Duplicate Yourself* “But the really interesting thing that happened is they said, ‘we want you to hire 3 of you…. What you’re doing is working, so what we’d like you to do is go have a think about how you can multiply that into other branches….’ Can you imagine sitting down and going, ‘what is it that I did today and how did I do it?’ …And, just really creating a job description, a profile, how they’re going to be successful…and then find the people and train the people? So that was my very first…experience with recruitment.” – Christy Honeycutt * After removing the shock of being told to multiply herself, Christy began a process that she would repeat over and over in her career – thinking outside the box to create something special that she could automate or systematize. * At that first bank, Christy managed people but had no prior training as a manager. How did she figure out how to manage people, and then how did that translate to the role in which she was asked to create job descriptions and multiply herself? + We’ve heard from some guests that most first-time managers do not get training. Christy echoes this sentiment. + Large banks will train you on laws and procedures, but Christy tells us she had to train herself on the people side. Mainly, she needed to learn how to manage the people, their schedules, and learn how to encourage them. Despite being the boss, Christy was still friends with the people who worked there. * In being asked to multiply herself, Christy had to systematize the job she was already doing. She tells us it was a daunting task. * “When you’re really good at things, what I’ve found is they seem natural to you, and they are not that hard.” – Christy Honeycutt * When asked to duplicate herself, Christy downplayed her contributions a little bit. She advises all of us to step back and really think about the work we have done because we might not immediately recognize it and may downplay it in a similar way. + As humans, we might at first feel like it is bragging to share the factual things we have done. + Christy had to think about what she did, simplify it, and figure out how to translate that to the people she needed to hire. + Christy was working for the mortgage division at a bank, and they needed to get more loans. She first sought to understand the sentiment of the bank’s customer base and if they had any needs. Step 1 was hosting a customer appreciation event. - The customer appreciation event generated direct feedback on the bank’s processes and product offerings. + Next, Christy sought to understand the bank’s target market, which was real estate agents. She thought about how to get real estate agents to use this specific mortgage broker. New real estate agents need help with marketing, so Christy got certified and began teaching marketing classes to real estate agents. All of the agents would eventually begin using the bank. + “It’s just kind of understanding what’s in it for someone else…. I just…went step by step by step and built the framework….” – Christy Honeycutt - The framework Christy mentions above outlined where the opportunities were for the bank (i.e. who might need their services), allowed for dividing up the work across divisions, and provided insight into the key performance indicators (KPIs) for measuring success. - In many ways, Christy acted as a liaison between the bank, the real estate agents, and end customers. + When seeking to hire people to do the work, Christy looked for empathetic people who were interested in helping others. + Another avenue for the bank to increase the number of loans was working with first-time home buyers who might have poor credit. This would help real estate agents who needed home buyers. The bank started doing credit repair seminars to generate new leads. - “I was bringing in buyers, delighting previous buyers, and then also going after the vendors that would help participate. Honestly, that model…has kind of been my two step my whole career.” – Christy Honeycutt * Nick thinks Christy’s process is actually a three-step with the third being supplementing the above with the type of education which will both Christy and the audience she seeks to serve. Nick thinks this pattern will probably be repeated somewhere in her story as well. + Christy says it actually does repeat. She recounts getting an AI-focused certification when this technology wave started catching on. + “In the next 12-18 months, over 80% of all organizations globally will have adopted AI if they haven’t already. So, if you’re looking for a job, and you don’t understand the basics…AI has a lot of different names. I want you guys to think about that. That’s usually marketing.” – Christy Honeycutt + Christy tells us AI agents are mostly marketing and an attempt to make things more consumable and understandable rather than some flashy new invention. + Christy recounts talking to executive leaders who have mentioned having AI in one’s toolkit even as a kid is important to be relevant in the future workforce. All of us need to have more than a bare minimum exposure to ChatGPT, for example. We need to play, create, and tinker with AI tooling to develop a point of view that is uniquely ours. + Christy feels AI will take jobs but that they will be lower-level things that we probably wanted automated anyway. She gives the example of a communications outage impacting airports in Dallas / Fort Worth and the decision to go get information from an AI agent on the company website rather than call the help desk. + For any job you go into, expect to get questions around AI. + Christy mentions a recent visit to the HR Tech conference. Every booth was promoting some kind of AI, and Christy shared with executives at the conference that buyers don’t fully understand the difference between products because “everyone is saying the same thing.” + Christy reminds us there are ways to get low cost or even free education on the topic of AI so we can develop competence and a point of view. + Nick shares his perspective on what he calls the “double check mark,” which is looking to educate yourself or build skills in an area that can help you both at your current employer but also make you marketable and relevant in the greater job market. - Something that only helps you with your current role isn’t quite as attractive as something that can help you later as well. Ideally, you span into both categories, but it is not always possible. - Christy mentions this is a very tech answer and gives the example of making a suggestion to an executive leader while advising for a tech startup. She only brought suggestions that would be attractive to / helpful to many customers (not just a single customer). * When Christy did research on what was impacting customer sentiment and spoke about understanding product market fit, was that all natural at the time she did it while working at the bank? + Christy says it was natural at the time. As a single mom, she needed to be scrappy. + “It’s funny because as I sit back and I think…I realize everything was kind of predestined. And at the moment it just felt like I was reacting and I was doing it, but…as I do my own reflection, I’m realizing that these cycles I’ve been on have always been for a reason, guiding me to where I’m at.” – Christy Honeycutt + Reflection is one way to uncover our strengths, and Christy reminds us that just because something is easy for us does not disqualify it from being a strength. + John mentions that performing a skill really well is different than being able to teach other people how to do it. When something comes easily to you, it might be difficult to know how to teach someone else to do it. But it sounds like Christy had to learn how to systematize the things she did so she could train others (i.e. it was not natural). - Christy says it definitely was not natural. She remembers how she felt when asked to duplicate herself. It seemed like a crazy request at the time. - One thing that really helped Christy through this process was looking at job descriptions for roles similar to hers at other companies and analyzing both similarities and differences. - “Everything is a learning lesson. I don’t regret any place I’ve ever worked. I don’t regret any situation I’ve ever had because it was all opportunity for me to learn how to manage through a situation (good, bad, or indifferent) and reflect on it and how I would do it differently.” – Christy Honeycutt * Christy mentioned earlier that no one learns how to be a manager. She is a forthcoming author and was recently signed with Postal Publishing House, and the book will be about leadership. + In the book Christy talks about how no one is trained to be a leader and how people often just kind of fall into it. She feels it is a big gap. Even as people get up to the director level and maybe even the VP level, they are still learning. + “No one sits you down and says, ‘hey, these really crazy things are going to happen, and you’re going to have to respond to these humans in a particular way. And by the way, you’re human, and you might have a really bad response to what you have to respond to….’ There’s lots of things that you deal with that I don’t think anyone could prepare you to deal with. And so, you learn on the job.” – Christy Honeycutt * Did the need to create job descriptions and hire people to multiply herself make Christy enjoy management more or question whether she wanted to keep doing it? + Christy tells us she questioned whether she wanted to keep doing it. Her responsibilities ended up expanding well beyond the go-to-market work she was doing, and things became more complex. + Christy went from being in charge of 1 person to being in charge of 4 people trying to do everything using her methodology but with their own flair. + “Frankly, I got kind of bored because I created something, I duplicated myself, multiplied myself…. Ok, I’m ready for the next thing. I can do this, and I’m ready for the next thing…. I’m constantly curious, and I always need something more just to kind of keep my attention. There’s a lot of people in the industry I think are that way, especially in tech…. And those are the people that employers are looking for. They are looking for the curious people. They are looking for the open-minded individuals that want to adapt and want to learn and do more because those are the ones that have the longevity.” – Christy Honeycutt - Once we master things as technical people, we often want to move onto what is next (something new to learn, a new certification to chase, etc.).
26:23 – A People First Approach* Did Christy’s background in cheerleading help her in marketing? + Actually, yes. + Christy gives the illustration of high school cheerleading and pep squads. These are made up of people who love community and love to empower and cheer on other people. + Christy reminds us that cheerleading is a sport. For those in cheer or pep squad, it’s not about wearing cute outfits. There is a commonality among the people who participate: an enjoyment of collaboration, a desire to win, and a belief that there is power in the energy they are giving. + Christy likes to look at things from an energy lens. + “In every industry you’ve got really good players, and you’ve got bad actors. So not all recruiters, not all talent acquisition people are really kindhearted, love what they are doing, and in it for you…. But the majority of the people in the HR and TA (talent acquisition) space generally joined that type of work because they love people, and they are fearful right now because they think AI is taking their job. And some of them it probably will, but you’re never going to get away from the EI and the EQ piece that is required in the age of AI. We need to be more human now than ever.” – Christy Honeycutt - Some people in these roles may hate their job. Some may love you as a candidate but be unable to get anything through. * At what point did Christy realize that for her it was more about the people? + “It’s always been about the people for me. Everything I do has been about people. I’m people first just in everything I do.” – Christy Honeycutt + After getting the job where she needed to duplicate herself, Christy wanted to talk to all of the company’s customers as her first task. + Christy mentions the concept of go-to-market is the same regardless of the company where we work. + “Your customers are your biggest resource because they will either be the loudest complainers or your biggest fans.” – Christy Honeycutt + Customers with a positive sentiment toward a company (or its products and services) can offer free insight on how to serve them better. This may come in the form of suggestions for new features and capabilities or advice on overall direction, for example, and provides a perspective that a vendor cannot otherwise see. + Christy has been told she is too “client advocate friendly.” - When selling a product or service to a customer, if users don’t adopt it, you are only as good as the contract. Christy calls this being a one trick pony. - On the other hand, we can sell a product or service and care enough to check in with customers and make pivots to make the product or service more valuable. This creates what Christy refers to as a “client for life.” - “And that’s, I think, where my specialty comes from is the human side, the people side. It’s just always remembering what’s in it for somebody else. Because we all have exchanges every day. What’s in it for the other person?” – Christy Honeycutt - Christy makes a hypothesis that we do this podcast to help people and because we care, and at some point in our career we probably needed what we are giving. What would you have said is the reason for the podcast based on being a listener? + “People are my thing. I get the heart. I get the energy, and I think at the end of the day, we all put our shoes on the same way.” – Christy Honeycutt - Christy really enjoys hosting Inside the C-Suite because it demystifies what it is like to be an executive leader. - “It’s understanding how you navigate and how your priorities change…what’s now, what’s next, what’s urgent always evolves as you grow in your career.” – Christy Honeycutt
31:52 – Getting into Recruitment* How did Christy end up getting into talent acquisition and recruitment? + Even with her hectic travel schedule hosting events for her employer, Christy never missed a little league baseball game in which her kids were playing. At a specific game, someone asked Christy what she did for a living and if she had ever thought about working in recruitment. - The person who made the suggestion helped Christy see the similarities between recruitment and marketing. - “Client needs a certain thing, and you go find the certain thing. And however you find it, you find it. That’s a lot like marketing. Exactly.” – Christy Honeycutt, describing an exchange with someone who encouraged her to pursue work as a recruiter + Christy went to an interview for a recruiting role and got the job on the spot. The company was bought out by Kenexa(CEO was Rudy Karsan) which was later acquired by IBM (or “big blue” as Christy calls them). - Christy did recruitment process outsourcing for this company (or RPO for short) and specialized in this area for many years. She led this at IBM and later at Korn Ferry. + She tells us there are so many layers to recruiting that people don’t know. - Staffing agencies, for example, often get a bad reputation. These agencies are predominantly focused on high-volume hourly roles or other short-term positions. Quality and candidate experience are not always the best. These recruiters have to move quickly because a successful placement is how they get paid. - “And when you do that really, really well the clients think that you’re their internal recruiter…. I think over my career, not me directly but within my teams, I’ve probably placed around 30,000 individuals.” – Christy Honeycutt, on specializing in RPO - Listen to Christy talk through an example of mapping through the workforce strategy for a client that wanted to outsource global recruitment on a tight timeline. She emphasizes that when we work with a recruiter, that recruiter might not work for the company where we are interviewing. - “When an RPO does a good job, not only does the candidate think that they’re an internal recruiter, but the clients think they are an internal recruiter.” – Christy Honeycutt - Christy talks about making a move from being a liaison manager for a client (focused on the client’s technology sales and marketing) to managing an internal team. The client thought she was their employee. - Don’t miss the part where Christy mentions she wanted to take a role as a recruiter so she could understand how to be a better manager. - “While your…audience is out there looking for jobs, just be mindful that…TA, recruitment, HR…depending on the size of the organization…you may be talking to an agency. You may be talking to an RPO. You may be talking to an internal recruiter. You can ask them. They don’t have to tell you.” – Christy Honeycutt + Another challenge for the job seekers out there is the amount of fraud happening. On average, every US citizen has 7 points of fraud directed at them per day. - Christy mentions getting multiple text messages from companies claiming to be Randstad, Robert Half, or some other firm about jobs. It’s all fraud. Don’t fall for it! - When Christy worked for Korn Ferry and another tech startup, as part of the go-to-market strategy, she created a candidate application analysis tool which informed clients about the candidate’s experience. * Some clients didn’t realize, for example, that their site was down and was preventing people from even applying. * This tool also informed clients about how they showed up on sites like Glassdoor and what the biggest complaints are. The lowest scores 9 out of 10 times for a company are for leadership. Keep in mind rankings on Glassdoor are from job candidates and people who have worked at a specific company, and most do not take time to write glowing reviews of an employer. * “We have to give the employers the benefit of the doubt. So when you know where the sources are coming from and you’re honest with yourself on when you give feedback and how you give feedback…until we can all step up as humans and start giving 2-3 good feedbacks a day, we’re never going to balance out the negative.” – Christy Honeycutt
Mentioned in the Outro* Christy did a great job emphasizing that we understand what is it for the other people we work with (incentives, metrics, what success looks like for them), and that was part of executing a successful go-to-market strategy in banking and other areas. Here’s how Nick thinks a go-to-market might look for someone working internal IT: + Understand the technology landscape at your company (hardware, software, cloud services and subscriptions – the overall vendor landscape) + Understand the end user base you support and the capabilities you are providing to them. Think also about the value being delivered through these capabilities to both internal users and external users if applicable. + Think about the capabilities you provide like products. Can your products be enhanced based on end user needs and feedback, and are we willing to take the feedback? Christy modeled the importance of understanding customer sentiment that can help us here. - Will an enhancement save time, decrease cost, decrease risk, or increase revenue? These are important impact metrics to understand (and document). + If you change a hardware / software vendor (i.e. a tooling change), will it disrupt your customer base, or can you still provide the same capabilities? Make sure you understand this! + Is there a new capability you could provide that delivers more capability? That’s part of the go-to-market. + Are there members of the end user base who need education to get more value from the services and capabilities you’re offering? * Don’t forget to check out the podcasts Christy hosts –Inside the C-Suite and StrategicShift. + Nick feels podcasts such as Inside the C-Suite are great sources to gain perspective on how executive leaders operate.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Original Recording Date: 11/2/2025
Expect a Change Moving Forward – The ScheduleHi everyone – thank you for being a listener. This is a brief reminder that episodes from this point forward will be releasing every 2 weeks for the time being. Life circumstances have demanded we make this change to keep producing the show.
Don’t expect any changes to our content. We remain committed to serving the technology professional and helping them accelerate career progression, increase job satisfaction, and be more effective in their existing role.
Thanks for coming along with us on the journey, and it will continue. Expect to hear from us every 2 weeks from this point. See you next week for another action-packed episode!
If you have ideas for a topic we should explore or a guest we need to have on the show, feel free to contact us via any of the channels below.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
What does it mean to become AI native? It’s not about using every AI tool on the market. For Milin Desai, the CEO of Sentry, it’s about becoming familiar with the tools and opting in to use the capabilities that deliver practical value. This mindset was born while Milin was the general manager of a business unit at a software company. In this role, he had to manage a profit and loss statement, learning the art of constrained resource planning and organizational adaptability.
In episode 351, our final installment of the conversation, listen as Milin describes both the gravity and different intensity of the CEO’s role compared to past roles. You’ll get insight into the strategy behind enabling an entire organization to shift and become AI native, how this translates into value for customers and employees, and how the individual contributor can be a better contextual communicator when speaking to busy leaders.
Stick with us until the end to understand how a set of first principles can guide our career progression if we choose to actively participate in it.
Original Recording Date: 09-29-2025
Milin Desai is currently the CEO of Sentry. If you missed parts 1 and 2 of our discussion with Milin, check out Episode 349 – Expand Your Curiosity: Build, Own, and Maintain Relevance with Milin Desai (1/3) and Episode 350 – Scope and Upside: The Importance of Contextual Communication with Milin Desai (2/3).
Topics – Contrasting the Role of General Manager with CEO, Embrace Practicality with New Technology, Junior Personnel and a Return to First Principles, Shifting Organizational Focus to Becoming AI Native, Contextual Communication to Leaders and Parting Thoughts2:41 – Contrasting the Role of General Manager with CEO* General managers usually own a profit and loss statement (or PNL statement). How was this different than the things Milin had previously gone through? + Milin says you do have to prepare yourself for it, and his experience as part of product teams was very helpful to gain familiarity with many of the elements of the general manager role (i.e. revenue protections, investing resources in specific efforts, etc.). + Things get very interesting when you are managing PNL in a constrained environment. Milin gives some insight into annual planning and the behaviors he has observed during these times. - “Very rarely do people come back and say, ‘I’ve got the same org. I’m going to reshape the org, move things around, and I’m going to do these new things with the same number of people.’ I think most leaders are not very good with that philosophy.” – Milin Desai + In this role Milin tells us he learned how to do planning with specific constraints in mind (i.e. stress testing as if no resources / extra people could be added), and this idea of keeping teams lean taught him about the adaptability of an organization. + “I really think every organization should do that, and then, you always have the ability to go add more people…. Structurally say, ‘is this how we still want to operate?’ And we rarely do that…. I knew the numbers, the resources, and everything else. We did a lot of planning. But what I learned I needed to get better at is this constrained planning…” – Milin Desai + Milin loved working as a general manager and thinking through how to optimize even if the organization didn’t get everything it wanted. + “What is the hardest thing to do? To say no. What is the hardest thing for a product manager to do? Shut down a feature. What is the hardest thing for a VP of engineering to do? To shut down a product…. I’m lucky enough to have a leadership team that…thinks along those lines. We are unconstrained, but we kind of try to make sure…let’s put some artificial constraints and see what we would do different.” – Milin Desai - Nick mentions this is analogous to the employee who is no longer a fit and having to say no to that person moving on with the company. * What is the contrast between being a general manager of a business unit and being the CEO of an entire organization? + Milin remembers some of the conversations when he was considering becoming a CEO. + “Milin, are you sure you want to do this? And it was not a capability question. It was, ‘do you understand what you are signing up for?’ …It is very different. You are responsible for everything. There is no other person. There is no other excuse. There is no other system I can blame. Something goes wrong at Sentry…I am it. And I have to go to sleep every day thinking about it. I wake up every day thinking about it.” – Milin Desai, quoting a question from former boss John Martin and speaking to the contrast of being CEO compared to general manager + You have to know you want to be CEO. Many people think they want to do it until they are doing it and realize how difficult it is. + Milin admits being CEO has been difficult, but having a great team has been very helpful. + Before taking the role, Milin spoke to his wife about it. He describes the role as “a very different intensity.” + Three months into Milin being CEO of Sentry, COVID showed up. That is a challenge he never would have expected. + “It’s very different to be a GM versus being a CEO. You’re using your same skills, but it’s a completely different magnitude of responsibility and impact.” – Milin Desai - As a general manager of a business unit, Milin could change the trajectory of his business unit. As CEO, mistakes are much more costly. But you cannot do it in fear. In fact, for Milin, the larger impact of his role is exciting. - The right partners and team around you as CEO are very important as are taking and applying lessons you previously learned. Milin continues to push himself to improve over time even after reaching the CEO level.
9:22 – Embrace Practicality with New Technology* John cites technology waves like virtualization, cloud, mobile, and generative AI. With generative AI, many of us get value from it. But many people are unconvinced of the value and are even fearful it will turn into something like Skynet (a reference from the movie Terminator 2). How does Milin approach people with this mindset? + Milin is practical with his approach to technology. + “The unconstrained view of what AI could do…we have seen it in movies already. So, I think the unconstrained aspect of this is what we can imagine or maybe even worse…. You can almost think about that and worry and not participate and be on the other side if that happens…. Or, just practically, on a day-to-day basis, figure out what aspects you want to opt in. So, I’m more in that camp…. On the AI front, just think about how it could practically help you on a day-to-day basis versus trying to worry too much about all the aspects, some of which you absolutely don’t even control…. I think it will bring productivity in ways that we don’t even know.” – Milin Desai + For example, Milin doesn’t have a voice assistant, didn’t find them useful, and did not opt in. + If you’re worried about supporting a bigger cause, Milin tells us that bigger cause is going to happen irrespective of us supporting it. Instead, we should think about how to practically use AI tools and become an active voice in it. + Milin tells us his wife just started using ChatGPT and loves it. He asked her the value question on whether it was worth paying for it vs. staying on the free tier after she talked about how much it helped. She agreed that it was worth the money. + Milin cites the potential for productivity gains we don’t even know or understand yet. For example, imagine a robot doing laundry for you so you can do something else. - Milin thinks there will be some significant value points with robotics and AI. He’s excited at the potential for optimizing daily tasks that this could bring. + “Just be practical in how you’re using it and how it will bring value to your life, and the ones that you don’t find valuable, don’t do it. I don’t try every AI tool…. But the things I care about, I lean in.” – Milin Desai + We don’t control the unconstrained and should not worry about it according to Milin, but we can be a positive participant in this (AI) by participating in communities that serve the greater good in this area. + Milin says the idea of an AI bubble bursting will be determined over time, but transformation is happening. - There are business use cases in vertical industries for AI (i.e. for medical transcribing). It’s not just people doing personal research at home, for example. - The intersection of AI and robots will be an exceptional thing. - We have to figure out our place in all of this, which is a harder question. + “I fundamentally believe you will still need engineers. You will still need certain things. But certain functions are getting automated…. You’re going to have to figure out where is the new value being created and how…you participate in the new value system.” – Milin Desai - This comes back to curiosity, asking good questions, listening, watching for where things are moving, etc. We can apply those same principles to the field of AI. - Milin tells us almost every company out there is willing to let you explore and learn when it comes to AI (which means. At Sentry, people are encouraged to use the tools they want to become “AI native.” - “Leverage that. Lean into it. Don’t shy away from it.” – Milin Desai, on utilizing your job role and resources to learn AI tooling and the value it can provide
15:07 – Junior Personnel and a Return to First Principles* Nick wonders how junior technology personnel can develop the expertise of someone who is more senior when the senior folks developed their expertise before AI existed? Can giving a junior employee AI tooling help them gain that same level of expertise? + Milin says this is about getting more “at bats.” Someone could read all about running a company or working with top leaders, but until they have done it, they cannot really understand what it is like. + For senior personnel, using AI tools will remove some of the tedious tasks and be more of an accelerant. + Junior personnel do need to become AI native, but in addition to this, Milin recommends spending your time thinking through failure modes and other fundamentals. + “If something breaks, will I be able to debug it? What are the failure modes for a user that is accessing the system? At what point in time will we have to look at scale aspects of the system…both just scaling versus architecturally? And then you start asking those questions and putting those pieces as learning building blocks…. I think you have to think again at first level principles, system level thinking.” – Milin Desai + In addition to the above questions, think about the following: - Is the user’s experience intact? - Does good design documentation exist? + Milin says these “first principles of system thinking” develop from writing, deep thinking, thinking through things from a user’s perspective, considering failure and scaling modes, etc. - “And so you build those habits, even as a young engineer…. When you get to a point, you will start asking the right questions, and AI or no AI, you’re going to be successful and valued because you’re thinking in first principles. You have to develop that, but you can develop that with AI and with the folks around you.” – Milin Desai
17:47 – Shifting Organizational Focus to Becoming AI Native* With Milin’s view on AI as not pure hype, how are organizations reorganizing priorities around how products get developed, tested, and shipped? + Milin tells us over 150,000 organizations use Sentry from the smallest startups to the largest organizations. The customer base scale is massive, and the feedback is constant, fast, and iterative. + “We have basically told the entire company, ‘You must become AI native….’ The number one thing we did was we unconstrained everyone to say, ‘go figure out how to become AI native.’ Whether you’re at Sentry or otherwise, this is a skill you are going to need. So, participate in it.” – Milin Desai - Milin says employees were encouraged to initially choose the tools necessary to become AI native, and corporate constraints would come into play a little bit later after personnel had built a skill base. + The Sentry team also had a set of people building AI-specific capabilities, but the intention was not to have a single, centralized AI team. - “There is a set of people who are experts at fine-tuning…the models and how everything works. But, if you want to be the company of the future, it’s not an AI team. It’s everything in terms of what you’re building has a perspective of participating in an AI native world. It cannot be that…30% of the team that is working on AI stuff, and the others are not….” – Milin Desai - AI is a tailwind for Sentry according to Milin. It was a goal to take some of the things the team was already doing (i.e. products they were building) and look for ways to make those products AI native. - Milin spoke to some of the work new graduates at Sentry did to build session replay summarization. This was their chance to take a project from 0 to 1. - Having an AI-themed “hack week” inside the company created a new energy and air of excitement. + “And so where are we right now? We basically are like, ‘what does it mean for Sentry to exploit all the opportunity it is in software?’ …It’s not constrained to a team. It’s organization wide…. Pretty much across the board, every team is going to look at what they do and say, ‘Is it a version that brings the experience forward because we now have LLMs and AI and all this new tech?’ That’s the question you have to answer.” – Milin Desai - The individual teams also have to think about where the experience in their product gets enhanced with these new technologies. It might be in the front end, back end, or something invisible to the user entirely. - Milin also mentions there is an internal team that owns building the core AI and infrastructure elements separate and apart from their product enhancement focus. - While everyone is moving in the same direction now, this shift Milin describes came in phases. It was introduced with a little guidance and happened over a period of 3-4 months. - “But you have to bring people along for the ride versus… ‘here’s what you’re going to do.’ That doesn’t work.” – Milin Desai * John says at first these steps sound like ways to modernize an organization, but in this case, it’s more to keep up with current trends and new ways to provide value. Milin says it is to stay relevant. + “It’s to stay relevant. That’s why I made the statement – with or without Sentry, every employee has to become AI native…. What we did was let folks opt in into kind of new areas of the product, and now everybody’s opting in.” – Milin Desai + Milin says they did not need to do unnatural things to leverage AI as a tailwind. If you are in a situation where a new trend like AI has come out of nowhere to impact what you do or threaten your relevance, it might require a pause and reset. * John speaks to the technology adoption lifecycle. There are bleeding edge use cases that apply to only the innovators. Next comes the use cases for innovators and early adopters. John says we can be the late majority to some of the things happening and gives the example of e-mail summaries from AI being an extremely useful of a late majority feature. + We can opt into late majority features without opting into everything or opting into the worst possible outcomes of using AI. + Milin gives the example of Sentry shipping a grouping feature powered by AI that resulted in big efficiency increases for customers. Most people would not know it’s powered by AI, and it was one of the first capabilities they shipped after implementing some of the internal changes Milin described earlier. + Milin says our attention spans are getting shorter and shorter, and some of the capabilities AI can bring are going to help with this.
25:35 – Contextual Communication to Leaders and Parting Thoughts* We spoke about the importance of contextual communication from management down to employees at lower levels and even about how important this is when using generative AI tools. Where Nick sees a lot of people struggle is when they are an individual contributor trying to be a contextual communicator upward to leaders. How can we do this well when working with busy leaders in a world where attention spans are getting shorter?
+ Milin says we don’t really think about this. We don’t think about the potential for running into a senior leader at a company and what we would do if they asked us a question.
+ “What tends to happen is you run into somebody who is maybe 1 or 2 levels of ownership higher than you. They ask you a question. You are deep in the weeds of solving a problem, and so you’re so lost in that problem that when you speak to that person…you may miss an opportunity to talk about why you’re solving that problem…. Always remember and always ask early on in your career…why are we doing this? How does this help? Who does it help? Just knowing that and starting to believe in that is helpful.” – Milin Desai
+ Milin says he’s had 1-1s with people who have told him something isn’t going to work. He would prefer them to speak up and question why something is being built if it’s not going to work based on those questions above.
+ “What is the job of somebody two levels up? They are just asking the right questions. What do you think? Is it going to solve the problem?” – Milin Desai
- Knowing the fundamentals as Milin outlined above (why, how / who something helps) allows you to have a conversation with a leader on the topic, and you can bring a point of view. It helps with what he calls “asynchronous communication” where you end up getting those unexpected questions about how things are going.
- “Just always ask this – ‘why am I doing this? Who am I doing it for? And then as a result you’ll know the value, you’ll know the persona, and how does it fit in. Those questions then contextualize everything. It doesn’t matter level 1 or level N at that point in time.” – Milin Desai
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Milin hopes listeners can parse out the value from this conversation.
- "Just come back to first principles of all the things we talked about. Be insanely curious. Be insanely active. Participate. And then everything kind of flows from there…. At the end of the day, we are only as good as the people around us. And whether you’re a manager listening, you’re an IC…remember, it’s about the humans…. Those people can only help you if you want to be helped. So, you need to take charge and ask and drive the conversation. And there will be a point where you may not be satisfied. We all are impatient. We all want to reach the summit on the very next day. Sometimes it takes time, so you have to understand what level of patience you have. But you own your path, your narrative, your direction…and you need to make sure that you get the most of an organization. I think people tend to forget that. Organizations sometimes get busy. I am not making excuses for people like me and others, but what I am trying to get at is I didn’t get here by waiting for people to give me what I believe was mine…. I actively participated in that conversation. Of course, I then had great mentors who then helped me with it. It did not come right away. I had to wait, be patient. But I’ll tell you, for the most part if you work hard, you’re an active contributor, you’re curious, you have good people you’re working for…things come along. And that formula is going to work. " – Milin Desai
- We cannot assume an organization is going to do wonders but should be active in the story. Milin is living proof of this.
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To follow up with Milin on this conversation:
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Follow him on X – @virtualmilin
- Follow Milin on LinkedIn
- Follow what is happening with Sentry:
- Sentry Blog
Mentioned in the Outro* There are layers of opting in throughout this discussion: + Opting in to use and learn about AI tools is one aspect, and opting in to leverage the tools for the use cases that provide value is another. + Milin had to opt in when he moved into the CEO role, and he has created an environment at Sentry that has enabled people within his organization to opt in for leveraging AI to provide more value to customers. * Remember those 3 questions Milin mentioned: + Why are we doing this? + How does it help? + Who does it help? * Due to life circumstances, our show is moving from a weekly release to releasing every 2 weeks for the time being. We want to make it on a schedule that is sustainable and at the quality we want. + When you don’t see a release next Tuesday, it’s because of this change.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
When we use a generative AI tool, providing more context can often lead to better output. What if we could apply this to our communication with other humans? Milin Desai, the CEO of Sentry, says contextualizing communication will change the way you operate.
This week in episode 350, we’ll follow Milin’s story of changing companies and pursuing different levels of leadership. Listen closely to learn about the importance and impact of active listening, how practice with written communication can help us develop a clearer narrative, the skills needed in higher levels of leadership, and how we can evaluate new opportunities through the lens of scope and upside.
Original Recording Date: 09-29-2025
Milin Desai is currently the CEO of Sentry. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Milin, check out Episode 349 – Expand Your Curiosity: Build, Own, and Maintain Relevance with Milin Desai (1/3).
Topics – Customer Discovery and Active Listening, Contextual Communication and Iterating on a Narrative, Scope and Upside, Necessary Skills at Different Leadership Levels, Enabling Active Participation2:49 – Customer Discovery and Active Listening* What Milin said without stating it explicitly was that we need to do a better job of asking people more questions to understand where they are coming from and what they care about. This is what Nick refers to as doing discovery, and it applies to the person working a ticket in IT just as much as the product leader or sales engineer working with a customer. + “AI is best when given the best context, so contextualize every conversation. And if you contextualize every conversation, it will change how you operate.” – Milin Desai + Milin gives the example of a support technician doing the work to close a ticket for someone but then taking a proactive step to let the submitter know there are other related issues you could help resolve. He classifies this as the “extra step” that some people just do without being asked. + Very few people are self-aware and like to rate themselves as the best at different things. + “That self-assessment is super important…. That extra juice that people are looking for is that contextualization, that personalization, that dot connecting…that is what will change you. And that comes with being curious, asking the questions, listening…active listening.” – Milin Desai + Milin says active listening is difficult for him, but it’s something he has become better at over time. * John says sometimes the question a person asks is not the question that person wants the answer to. It’s not up to us to just answer the question that was asked. It’s up to us to go the extra mile and ask questions to get more of the context. + Milin shares an anecdote for people in customer-facing roles. Validation that a product pitch is resonating with a customer comes from active listening and questions. But there’s even more. + “But you forgot to ask a simple question…in the next six months, if you had a dollar to spend, would you spend it on this? We forget to ask the most important question. If I’m going to build it, will you use it? Will you buy it?” – Milin Desai - Without asking the above questions, product teams may relay that feedback from a customer was nothing but positive and not understand why product activation numbers are low. - We need to figure out why a customer would use a product or feature rather than assuming they will use it when it is pitched / suggested to them. Be intentional about understanding the customer’s priority as well. * “The same principles apply to development and everything else in our lives too. If you only had an hour a day, what would you do with it? Start thinking that way, and it makes things very, very simple.” – Milin Desai + Nick says we could also ask about priority when pitching an internal project idea to management. Would someone approve the project in the next six months? John suggests asking how far out in someone’s priority list a project would be. + What if your project idea or the product you are pitching is not on someone’s priority list? Should you just stop there? - At this point with time left in a meeting you have options. Asking to tell someone what you are building is a mistake, and so is just ending the meeting. - “What if you spend the next 5 minutes asking, ‘what is the most important things you’re thinking through?’ Because yes, it may not be the current thing you are doing, but again, coming back to knowing what other people in the company are doing, it could be connected to another initiative, another project, another product that the team is building. So, coming back to the same curiosity we talked about, and knowing what’s happening around you, you may find something. Or you may just learn…. But you came ahead as a high IQ individual who is saving them time, who cares about them more than they care about selling a product.” – Milin Desai - It’s important that we learn to pause in this way to gain understanding. Asking someone what they feel is important or what their priorities are after they’ve said something is not a priority is an acknowledgement that what you brought them isn’t relevant. - Learning more about the priorities of your audience may bring about an opportunity for a different group / team if you’re plugged into what is happening in other parts of your organization. - One option is nothing comes of it, and you learn something. + Nick says once we learn what someone thinks is important, we might get a much better idea than what we originally came to the meeting with.
9:00 – Contextual Communication and Iterating on a Narrative* John says this goes back to empathizing with the customer and living in their shoes. Part of this job is to collect customer priorities and report it back to your organization. This information might indicate a product a company is building does not solve the right customer problems or doesn’t align with customer priority. + From a career perspective, people might think they need to do all of this alone – get on the customer calls, understand what customers want, and synthesize it to relay to other teams. - When Milin was a product manager, he started pulling in other team members to be on customer calls with him. This began when Milin was at Riverbed, but Milin tells us he leveraged it much more during his time at VMware. - “The interpretation of that conversation can be very different…. After that call is finished, you ask for their interpretation. Did they have happy ears? Did you have happy ears? But more importantly you as a team get on the same page about the opportunity.” – Milin Desai - Milin is speaking about promoting collaboration between product managers and engineering teams by ensuring the engineering team members have access to the same set of information. Getting them to hear information straight from a customer helps promote alignment better than receiving feedback only via the product manager who spoke to the customer. Being part of the live conversation is also better than only having access to the recording. - Letting other members of your team that you work closely with participate along with you is extremely important according to Milin. You don’t need to do it alone. * “So, I think that participation is really important, and the second most important thing in any career progression, anything from non-tech or tech, is communication…contextual communication…. Talking to a VP versus an EVP versus a CRO…everyone is different. We as humans don’t spend enough time on contextual communication in our personal or professional lives. And I would say the single biggest thing I see people make a mistake on is not invest in communication, written form communication….” – Milin Desai + If communicating to an engineering team, have them feel they were in that conversation. Give them a synthesis of the problems you talked about and what happened as a result. - Storytelling and communication are important to provide your perspective on what happened to others. + We can write our thoughts down and then iterate on them. When the thoughts are fully formed, we can share them with a group. Spend time writing down your thoughts, and contextualize them for the audience with which you are sharing them. - When we write down our thoughts in draft form, Milin says it should feel natural and not take a lot of time. The story arc can be cleaned up as a next pass / next iteration. * John mentions there is a difference between a transient idea and something you take the time to articulate through writing. The latter is something you can understand and have a conversation with others about. John talks about writing as something that enables fully formed thoughts and the evolution of those thoughts. + Milin had the opportunity to work for Marin Casado (founder Nicira), and Martin encouraged people to write things down because “you don’t think in PowerPoints.” + Milin has developed a habit of writing over time. When he gets an idea, even if it is sitting on a train, he might write it down and save it in his e-mail drafts folder to get it out of his head. Milin will then come back to it later (a day, a week, etc.) to refine it and then share with a larger audience. + Martin Casado also encouraged people to think like a story. + “The art of storytelling allows you to bring a point of view to the world.” – Milin Desai * Nick says this idea of writing, letting it sit for a time, and coming back to refine what you wrote sounds like a great way to prepare for scenario-based interviews. + Milin shares some of the feedback he gives people who have completed an internship at Sentry. + “Make sure you have a narrative around this. If you choose not to come back to Sentry for a full-time job, when somebody asks you what you did, you have a compelling narrative around what happened and what you learned…. You’re absolutely right. You need to own the narrative and drive it. But you need to find that balance between too much, too little, too boasty, or not telling enough about yourself.” – Milin Desai * As we develop a narrative, the brevity and depth might change as we change roles. In Milin’s case, he moved to product management but then began to move into leadership positions. How did he see his narrative change in depth and brevity over time? + Milin says it has been the hardest thing. Written form communication is hard. + We should be self-aware and self-critical but not let these things affect our confidence. + “I just want to make sure everybody understands when I keep saying these things, it’s not about breaking your confidence. It’s knowing who you are and then improving on it.” – Milin Desai + Milin tells us he is either very verbose or very succinct, and writing / narrating a full story has taken time to improve. Milin is very good with story arcs, but it’s writing the entire story which is the hard part. + “That’s been my strength. I can get you to understand the core, the why, very quickly. But then when I have to make it medium form or long form, I continue to struggle in that. That’s been work in progress.” – Milin Desai + This is the contextual communication piece of things. Milin talks about his experience doing all-hands calls as a general manager or as a CEO. - Giving too much information in these cases will lose the audience. Most of the time you have to find a middle ground between too much and too little information. - Milin says the question-and-answer section of these all-hands calls tells you where the gaps are. He would fill in the gaps either using offline mechanisms or a smaller set of meetings to address these questions. Milin also said it took him a while to get to this point. - “And it takes practice to take 3 pages and make it 1 page and make it relevant. It’s really art.” – Milin Desai - Maybe AI tools can help here, practice certainly helps, and knowing your audience helps. - Knowing your audience is part of contextual communication. - Milin says he’s done a lot of iteration and practice to develop these skills.
17:57 – Scope and Upside* Regarding Milin’s transition away from Riverbed… + Milin says he really enjoyed his time at Riverbed but had hit a wall. In aggregate from a dollars and cents perspective, making the move to VMware was a step down. - Six months after making the move, Riverbed stock doubled and split. + “But I had zero regret, and this is super important. Why did I move? I moved because I had wanted to spread my wings more, and it looked like the organization that I loved could not make that happen. So, I had to do something about it. I waited, and then I moved on…. I had to take a step down to make that step up. I got lucky…good choice, great people, great mentors at VMware…. I had reached a point where I needed to spread my wings, and that opportunity was not showing up. So, I made the call.” – Milin Desai + Everyone has their own reasons for leaving a company. Milin would first encourage us to be patient and not make abrupt decisions. We should seek to leave a company better than when we joined it. + When Milin made the decision to leave Riverbed, people immediately thought it was because something was wrong. Nothing was wrong with the company. Milin needed to spread his wings. + “Career trajectory does not always have to be a step up. It can be sideways or…down. You look at the opportunity…. I looked at scope, upside, and then I believed that if the scope and upside would work out, things would work out for me. And they did.” – Milin Desai + Milin had the opportunity to go and focus on networking at VMware at a time when this was an emerging area of focus within the company. It was a chance to build upon his existing expertise. + Milin talks a little bit about his first manager at VMware (Ushan) and how that person’s support accelerated his progression within the company. When the time came, this manager supported Milin taking on a different role within the company. - “It’s crazy. I’m telling you…people make people.” – Milin Desai, on having great managers + Milin would encourage listeners to optimize for scope and upside, even if you need to take a small detour. + In Milin’s case, he did not know many people at VMware when he made the move from Riverbed. It was a risk he took based on the scope of the role he would be in, and it worked out.
21:20 – Necessary Skills at Different Leadership Levels* John asks Milin about the difference in skills for each of the roles he has held from individual contributor to first-line manager and upward. John says getting to the next management level does not mean all the skills you had to that point are going to help you (i.e. new skills may be required). + “The first thing I am going to tell you is that management is hard. You should know you want it because it’s more than you…. I want everybody kind of walking into that role to realize that it’s a lot of work, and it will never get easy.” – Milin Desai + A manager has team members working for them, but there is an additional burden that requires translation of the greater organization’s expectations to your team. + Milin says the skills you need as a manager are not something you can take a class to gain but rather something you learn over time. We can also learn from the great managers we’ve had. + Milin knew what great managers looked like. They let him be himself, allowed him to take initiative, had high expectations, and they gave him context. + Milin found it easy to manage people who were like him, but his biggest lesson was adjusting to the different ways in which people on the team operate and bring value. It was important to create a forum to enable all types of people to succeed. + John says we learn how we as individuals are managed well (because it is modeled for us) but not necessarily how to best manage people who need to be managed differently (i.e. needing different types of guidance / structure / guardrails, etc.). Milin continues to struggle with this. + Milin likes to be pointed in a direction by a manager, and he can do the rest. Milin would come to a manager with problems when needed, but he will figure out how to get what he wants from a manager. - Milin reminds us of the time he was asked to go find a new role and how much it changed him. - Learning how to manage people different than you is a skill that takes time to acquire. + “There’s a point in time when it’s not about you or what you bring to a team. It’s about who you can hire….” – Milin Desai, on an aspect of rising to more senior leadership levels + When Milin was moving up to senior vice president, it became more about whether he could bring in exceptional senior talent. This kind of caught him by surprise, but Milin knew he could go and figure out how to do it well even though it might not have come naturally to him. This was a new aspect of leadership after he had gained experience running a business unit and making it profitable. - “If you bring in the right people, you automatically become potentially a great manager because they unburden you. They understand you really well.” – Milin Desai - Milin says we should be willing to bring in people who are smarter than us, and we should be ok with that. He’s never had an issue with it, but some people do. + Hiring the right people is a form of leaving an organization in a better state than you found it. + Moving on from people is also something you learn as you move up. Milin calls this active management. - “There’s a point in time where a person could be doing everything they are supposed to be doing. They have been with the organization, but the organization has shifted…. And this person is not able to adapt to it. It’s the company transitioning at that point. It’s not the person. And the ability for you to quickly recognize that for this phase of the journey…somebody you had loved before is not going to work out is probably one of the hardest things you will do as a people leader.” – Milin Desai * When John was at Google, they talked about rearchitecting a product when the user base increases by a factor of ten. Similarly, the people organization has to be rearchitected. + “There is a journey of an organization. It is a living, breathing thing, and it goes through its own phases. And through that phase, there are some people who grow through every phase and continue to be part of the organization…. There is a time when somebody who was a perfect fit no longer is a fit…. To identify that and to make that person successful in a different role in the company or something else…those were the things I had to…learn at these different levels. It’s hard.” – Milin Desai - Some employees may only be part of 1 or a couple of phases of an organization’s growth / change. + Milin gives the example of people later in their careers who are very self-aware. They might understand that the most enjoyment for them is found when they work in startups that have between $10 million and $100 million in annual recurring revenue, for example. + Milin shares the example of bringing in someone to work with him who helped build a specific team and then others who helped scale the team and greater organization. + Other senior leaders taught Milin that bringing in the right kind of senior talent would free up some of his bandwidth to be spent in other areas. + Milin says he has luckily not needed to let people go because a business was not profitable. + “Through that journey, the thing that has inherently worked, continues to work, is writing down my intention for the org, for the team, for the company…what we will bring to the table and keeping that written and clean 24 by 7. It doesn’t become stale…. That has been the consistent point of help besides having great people to work for.” – Milin Desai + According to Milin, someone can write an 18-month strategy, but they should go and clean it up every 3 months.
29:55 – Enabling Active Participation* Nick says by maintaining clarity on all of these things, it cascades to help leaders like Milin understand what the roles and job requirements within the organization should be, even if they are not formally changed. + Milin says having it written down helps with everything. + “It’s super hard to cascade a point of view or a vision. You have to repeat it multiple times, in multiple forums, and everything else. But if that itself is stale…it becomes really hard. So, I still to this day tell everyone, ‘give me a one-pager of where you’re taking the team for the next 3-6 months. If you don’t have that, how will you be effective?’” – Milin Desai + The one-pager Milin mentioned is different than a feature or function to be built. It’s more about outlining the set of problems a team will solve in the short term (i.e. next 6 months) and then coming up with the measurements of how to do it within that specific time frame. He suggests highlighting the longer-term problems the team wants to solve as well. - These things are written down and get revisited regularly by the team (maybe every 3 months) to determine if they are still relevant. Milin calls this “active participation.” - “Are these still relevant? I want you all to think about it. Active participation, right? Now they get a point of view on the 3 things next six months we agree and the 4 things long term maybe we need to change or something like that. So that allows for active participation. I would say that’s another great thing I learned as my roles started getting bigger and the scope started getting bigger.” – Milin Desai
Mentioned in the Outro* Contextual communication has many layers to it. + We can share context verbally with others but also gain it from them in the way we ask questions. + We can also provide context to others through writing. Milin has done this for a long time. He will write a draft and iterate on it regularly to keep it fresh and clear. + Duncan Epping uses writing to learn - Episode 303 – Write to Learn and Learn to Present with Duncan Epping (1/2) + Jason Belk emphasized developing his narrative through writing before talking about it - Episode 284 – Draft Your Narrative: Writing and Building a Technical Portfolio with Jason Belk (2/2)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
How curious do you think you are at work? Take a second to rate yourself. After today’s conversation with guest Milin Desai, you’re going to want to dial that curiosity up a notch.
Milin is currently the CEO of Sentry, and one of the keys to his success from the very beginning was allowing the scope of his curiosity to expand over time…beyond specific projects and even beyond his job role. Perhaps without realizing it, Milin was doing the work to build and maintain professional relevance.
Listen closely in episode 349 as we follow Milin from his early days as a computer science student through roles as a QA tester and software developer all the way into technical marketing. You’ll hear advice for expanding your own curiosity inside your current company, ways you can provide value to a mentor, and an empathetic approach to customer conversations that can help you build relevance and develop a strong reputation.
Original Recording Date: 09-29-2025
Topics – Meet Milin Desai, A Unique Trait, Internships and Job Interviews, Curiosity and the Importance of Control, Mentorship as a Stream of Active Conversations, Beyond the Scope, Becoming Relevant in Something Different2:40 – Meet Milin Desai* Milin Desai is currently the CEO of Sentry. + Sentry helps teams find where code is broken in production and helps them fix it fast, and with AI, fixing it faster is greatly accelerated.
3:15 – A Unique Trait* Around 7th or 8th grade Milin recognized how much he enjoyed math and science in school. Milin had an affinity for STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics). * Milin cites his dad, a mechanical and electrical engineer, as a big influence. Going into 10th grade, Milin thought he would pursue mechanical engineering. * Milin’s cousin Rajiv (who had worked for NASA) would come visit and began showing Milin some of the work he was doing. This is the point at which “everything changed” for Milin, and he decided to pursue computer engineering / computer science. + Milin also tells us he built hundreds of websites in India during the time of dial up modems. * Milin pursued an undergraduate degree at a school in Mumbai, but his family knew he wanted to come to the United States. + Milin came to the United States in 1999 and attended USC (University of Southern California) to purse a master’s degree. + The potential for opportunity and the vastness of the United States captivated Milin. * Did Milin ever ask Rajiv what he should study, or did he naturally gravitate toward those areas? + Rajiv would have conversations with Milina and show him the work he was doing. + Milin started working for Rajiv while pursuing his undergraduate degree. He was building websites for companies in India. + The building of the websites was interesting to Milin, but he was also doing the selling part. Milin had to make a pitch to companies explaining what a website could do for them, share the price, and collect the check if they said yes. + “Not only did he influence me in kind of figuring out…this is where the opportunity is and inspire me…but he also went on to tell me that I have a unique trait where I can talk business tech selling, and I know the technology part. And I can bridge the two worlds. He was one of the early people to recommend that in the long run I may want to think about the business side or…the entrepreneurship side of things when it comes to tech, not just the programming or the systems side of things. And he in fact felt my combo made me more relevant…in that lane versus just staying a programmer.” – Milin Desai + Rajiv gave Milin these cues early on in addition to inspiring him to do the work. + As people who work in sales engineering today, John and Nick agree that the combination of technology and business value is very valuable.
7:49 – Internships and Job Interviews* Milin began working for Veritas after he finished his master’s program as an entry-level software engineer. + Pursuing an advanced degree can give you the chance to pursue internships, and Milin had a family friend working at Veritas who introduced him to the hiring manager for a quality assurance (or QA) internship. + After successfully getting the internship at Veritas, Milin was doing QA for software-defined storage volume management. + Milin’s work during the internship led to a full-time offer from Veritas upon his graduation. + “The first break is always hard, by the way, to get. I see it even to this day with folks coming out of school. Not everyone…lands in the perfect opportunity right away, and the dots need to be connected. I’ve been fortunate enough to have people open doors and open opportunities…. But I remember being rejected a lot.” – Milin Desai + Milin tells us he struggled in job interviews as a new graduate. Many of his friends from school had multiple job offers from these conversations, and compared to them, Milin had much less success getting offers outside of the one from Veritas. + From a timing perspective, this was around the time of the market crash following the events of September 11, 2001. - “Even timing-wise, the difference between graduating with your master’s degree a year and a half versus 2 years. That six months made all the difference. A little luck, a little timing, and a lot of support.” – Milin Desai * Did the degree program Milin pursued prepare students for job interviews at all? + Milin tells us that a school doesn’t really prepare you for the conversation you have in an interview. While you do learn deep systems concepts in school, for example, the interview questions are often situational. - “You definitely use those concepts, but you’re never in that setup until you go through that process. And I think interviewing is a little bit of an art form. Some folks are really good at it, and some folks even study it. There is some element of that. But I think the school prepares you with fundamentals. It doesn’t necessarily prepare you for that interview per se, and you have to kind of connect the dots…. You can prepare for it. Some people are just naturally good at it, and some people like me just suck at it.” – Milin Desai - Milin feels interviewing is sort of an art form. You can work to prepare yourself * Did Milin think of interviews as somewhat similar to pitching a company on a website? + The selling part is easy according to Milin. In this motion you are telling a story, bringing a problem statement, and delivering value. It’s less about solving some kind of algorithm but rather trying to figure out if what you have to offer will address someone’s pain point. + Milin emphasizes the storytelling element of the sales process and the collaborative problem solving you’re doing with someone. It’s more of a conversation. + Selling is not about getting into an extreme level of detail like a technical interview can be. Someone could easily make a mistake in a technical interview when describing a specific step in the process and get off track. People can feel a great deal of pressure when in a job interview. + Milin feels job interviews are much more difficult than a business conversation. The latter is about human connection and building rapport with the other person. - Milin tells us his interview style is more about building human connections than testing the limits of a person’s technical depth. * John mentions the difficulty in choosing a technical interview style that is well suited for effectively evaluating multiple job candidates. Does having a portfolio of code that is applicable to the role help with this? + John also brings up LeetCode style interviews if you’d like to read more about them. + Milin says quickly assessing a fit can be a challenge. It can be a combination of skills and experiences with other things layered on top. - Milin says the first interview might be more focused on solving some basic elements. But it’s helpful if a candidate can talk about and contextualize other work they have done (like working on an open-source project, for example). - "But to get in, there has to be a common baseline, a language, a form…. " – Milin Desai, on early round interviews - If interviews are challenging for you as they have been for Milin, you have to work through them over time. - “In the later stages what I would tell you is what is most attractive is people who have been from what I call 0 to 1 project where they start something are through the end. The end is not shipping actually. Shipping is just an intermediate point. End is adoption and the scaling and all of those elements. And to be through that journey 1, 2, 3 times is interesting to almost every organization out there…because through that you learn a sense of people, ownership, outcomes.” – Milin Desai - Early on the baseline is some kind of entry test. When looking for people with more experience, interviewers will ask about projects people have written about on their resume or elsewhere and how they solved problems within those projects. At this point, the portfolio becomes more interesting and can help you get an opportunity. + We emphasize the importance of a portfolio of projects and not just a portfolio of code.
16:16 – Curiosity and the Importance of Control* How did the role Milin had at Veritas shape the rest of his career? + Milin says this was his first job and was an amazing experience that has filled him with fond memories of that time. + Milin emphasizes the importance of help from others during the course of his career. + The Veritas experience gave Milin the chance to work with great people, but he also found mentors within his area at the time (software volume management). - Milin mentions a mentor named Mark who remains a dear friend to this day. - “He kind of took me under his wing and explained stuff and was just there. And he didn’t need to do that…. Please, when somebody…experienced takes the time to go that extra mile you make sure you better jump on and do what’s needed. That was a friendship and mentorship I would say on a regular basis that really helped shaped my system thinking…. It was just the way we would talk about systems and concepts, and it really kind of expanded my mind…. The discussions are not always about this piece of code as much as how does this work with this part of the system…?” – Milin Desai - Mark was in a leadership role at the company and understood other projects that were in the works. Milin really enjoyed learning about those things even though they were outside his area. - Milin emphasizes the importance of curiosity that extends beyond what we own and even what others own. This ever-expanding curiosity was one of the most helpful things in addition to mentors early in Milin’s career. - We should also be willing to raise our hands to volunteer to solve a problem or work on something extra. This quality, in conjunction with being curious and having effective mentors, was essential to Milin’s success. * After completing his first year at Veritas and getting a great review, Milin’s manager told him he needed to find a different role. This was not about job performance. + “I’ll tell you the positive out of it. It basically made me realize that I need to control my destiny. I need to keep working at it, not assume anything. It was the best thing that happened to me…. At that point in time, I found a different role. I found another set of great mentors. And things just took off because my mindset shifted from not just being curious and raising my hand. It changed into…I’ve got to take care of myself. No one else will. It was a healthy sense of paranoia of constantly wanting to prove myself. Again, not lack of confidence, impostor syndrome…none of that stuff. It was just about ‘am I doing everything absolutely possible that I become unshakeable?’ That was the most helpful thing that person did for me, but it changed everything.” – Milin Desai * Did the manager who mentioned Milin would need to find a different role tell him he needed to search inside the company or externally? + Milin had to go do the homework to assess his options for new roles. It was up to him to make it happen. + “Being curious means you work beyond your project scope, you talk to other people, you get to know other teams. They get to know you. So, when something like this happens it is not like you just showed up at their door. It’s all connected in a way when you are part of something bigger than your project, your team. You take interest. You have conversations. You have lunch with people beyond your team. You do things kind of outside just general scope.” – Milin Desai, on curiosity as a network builder + When a job loss type of situation happens and people know you, it is a jumpstart on internal opportunities. A mentor, for example, might vouch for you as well when trying for a new role. + “At the end of the day there are humans involved in the process, and that’s where the first connection happens.” – Milin Desai
22:43 – Mentorship as a Stream of Active Conversations* As Milin looks back, how would he describe ways we can be an effective mentee to a mentor? + It’s not about showing up unprepared and expecting magical wisdom to come from a mentor. + It’s also not about taking a wide set of problems. + “It’s an active conversation. It’s a relationship. And the relationship is not transactional…. It’s a constant stream of active conversations….” – Milin Desai + We should go into a meeting with our mentor prepared just like a board meeting. Take with you a set of 1-3 things the mentor could help you with. + Milin suggests we figure out how the mentor operates, and figure out how to leverage this. It’s about reverse engineering what a mentor brings to see if they can bring value to you. + “And it’s not like they are going to help you suddenly go from point A to point B. I think that’s another big misnomer around this. It’s just somebody as a guide point, as a reference point of…additional data.” – Milin Desai + When Milin looks back at the people who have helped him, most mentors were within the same company, but there were external mentors as well. + People tend to think a mentor only helps them (a unidirectional relationship). Throughout Milin’s career, he tried to find ways to help his mentors (i.e. taking something off the mentor’s plate). + “It became a mutually beneficial thing where they were being successful as well in spending time with someone like me…. It’s various phases, but I always tell people there is no professional mentor. There are professional coaches. That’s different.” – Milin Desai + Milin says active mentorship on scenarios or career things requires someone be in the business with you (in the same company), and it also benefits the mentor. + People confuse mentors and coaches, but any given person may need both an external coach and internal support systems (like symbiotic relationships with mentors). * Was it the series of active conversations with mentors that pushed Milin in the direction of product management? + Milin encourages us to think back to his time focusing on storytelling and selling before graduating and put it together with his curiosity during his first year at Veritas. - Milin mentions spending time with leaders who worked across different functions of the company and how interesting it was to learn about interconnected projects across the company. + Now we fast forward to the time after Milin needed to find a new role. + “By the way, I was an average coder, but I made up for it with a lot of testing – making sure that it worked, it worked in different scenarios, the UX, the experience…. That’s where I learned…everything is about the user, not about me writing code.” – Milin Desai + Milin would send e-mails to product leaders inside the company asking if they had explored specific problem domains. He would make these messages thoughtful and include research. He would also ask questions offline after all-hands calls. - Milin mentions names like Jeremy Burton and Mike Spicer as leaders who took the time to respond to his messages. - The continued dialogue with product leaders helped Milin realize he wanted to try something different. - “I wanted to kind of go to the product definition side because I was really enjoying it, but it was a series of all of these coming together to that culmination. That encouragement, that active encouragement from the folks I just mentioned definitely also helped….” – Milin Desai
29:52 – Beyond the Scope* Did Milin have any conversations with his manager at the time about pursuing product management before he made the move? + Milin feels he may have been operating like a product manager in some form by asking the right questions and being a little disruptive. He thinks people started to see this. + Milin’s next role was a technical marketing engineer at Riverbed. He did have the option to become a product manager under Symantec but chose to go to Riverbed. + “I made the shift first to a technical marketing engineer, and within a year they said…move over to product management…. I think people realized my aptitude, the way I was spending time, the contributions I was bringing…. I think I had to just make up my mind and start making that choice, which is what I did in 2006.” – Milin Desai * John emphasizes that we do not always know how the puzzle pieces of experience will fit together later. Without exposure to different things, there is no way to put these together when it’s needed. + Milin says many people want to join startups because it will allow them to do many different things in an organization with fewer people. While this is true, not everyone takes advantage of everything a startup can offer in this regard. + While it is likely harder in a large organization to do this (do many different things to gain different experience), it is not impossible according to Milin. In fact, he’s changed roles within large organizations to do different things over the course of his career. + “There is so much you can learn by just inherently listening for the signals, being curious about it, having lunch with different folks.” – Milin Desai + Milin tells us that having lunch with different people or participating in extracurricular activities with your team can be a great time for networking. It’s something that takes you outside the scope of your role, and when you do it, you do not know where it might take you. - Milin used to play soccer during lunch, for example, which gave him the chance to network with people in the bay area. + Milin says we do not need to be extroverts and should do what is most comfortable for us. + "If you’re a curious person and you want to learn a little bit about marketing, you can just ask. And most organizations have good people. They will respond, which is what I was telling you about when I was talking to…all these people who were like 7 levels above me in the larger organization…. They chose to take the time to respond, which created encouragement…. " – Milin Desai + John says these are practical tips in going from 0 to 1 in one’s own career management.
33:40 – Becoming Relevant in Something Different* What led Milin to apply for the technical marketing engineer role? + It started by being ready to do something different. + “I don’t even remember how I applied for it, but all I can tell you is when I spoke to the team and the people I was like, ‘wow. This is going to be so much fun.’” – Milin Desai + The role as a technical marketing engineer was really about telling people how to use a Riverbed product focused on WAN optimization. We might call it developer experience or developer advocacy today. + In the job interview, there were no questions about coding because this was a technical marketing job. But they gave Milin a homework assignment as part of the interview to share how he would test something. - According to the hiring manager at the time, (Phil), Milin went above and beyond for this assignment. In addition to explaining how he would do the testing, Milin built a PowerPoint representing the story he would use to educate people on this scenario complete with preconditions, advantages, etc. - It was the extra push on this exercise that got Milin the job. + At the time, Milin didn’t understand what it meant to work for a pre-IPO company (which Riverbed was at the time). - “But I didn’t even think about all this stuff. I just literally loved the people and the scope of the role, and I felt like this would be exciting. And I took it…. There will be a point in time in your career where you can choose the people you work for and choose the people you work with, and there is nothing more important than those two things in my opinion when thinking of what you want to do next. Where do you want to spend your time? And most people don’t optimize for that. They optimize for everything else…. Day to day, you’re going to spend more time with these people. As soon as I got to know this group I am like, ‘man, I want to be with this group.’ …It was the people. Just like everywhere else…it starts with people.” – Milin Desai * John mentions part of technical marketing roles as well as developer relations roles is being what he likes to call “nerd famous.” You have to be a little bit of a draw for attendees. Does this align with Milin’s experience in technical marketing? + Milin says yes and no. He feels the people who succeed in these roles are there because they have depth. + “That, I think, should not be lost. There have been a lot of people who have come and gone if you notice in that…what people call devrel or whatever…. The ones who have survived and thrived and continue to be respected are the ones with depth.” – Milin Desai + Whether it’s writing a product design document or an engineering design document, Milin tells us it is a story very much like a movie script with a beginning, middle, and end. Great storytellers who can simplify things will do well in a technical marketing or similar role. + Another thing to consider is whether you are bringing value. If someone comes to talk to you about cooking and you love eating but not cooking, the conversation is kind of pointless. + “When you are not famous, the way you become relevant is you bring relevance to the other person in terms of what they care about and then to be able to help solve their problem.” – Milin Desai + Milin says when it comes to people in customer facing roles (product managers and many others), it is easy to get into “the diarrhea of our mindset.” - People get into the mindset that they are building a feature and need to tell the customer everything about it. And sometimes customers will just let you tell them. - “If you pause a little bit, understand what the other side wants, do the storytelling from that standpoint…highly, highly transformational.” – Milin Desai + Milin also tells us that keeping our word helps build our professional brand. Are we doing what we say we will do? - Getting someone an answer because you said you would, even if the answer is no, build rapport and relationship. + The personality aspect is needed to get the best opportunities according to Milin. - Milin gives the example of posting some information on bulletin boards about using Riverbed and NetApp together. People got to know him through the content he had shared and the value it brought them. Listen to the specifics of what happened when people would meet him in person. - “I feel like if you do it right, you do it for your audience, you know your audience…day in the life of…be in their shoes. I think that’s super important in that TME role, in the product manager role versus the internal, inside view of…we are building something. Nobody cares about your algorithm if it doesn’t work. So, tell me how I am going to use it. If it breaks, tell me when it’s broken…all of that fun stuff. Live in the life, live in the shoes of your customer. Understand what they want, empathize with that, and from there, magic will happen.” – Milin Desai
Mentioned in the Outro* There is a slow build of through Milin’s experience of developing that relevance. Examples would be: + Discussions with early mentors to understand systems and how projects within the company were connected - It takes curiosity to understand these things, and we need to have that same kind of curiosity when we help our co-workers or external customers with technical problems. + The questions Milin would ask and suggestions he would make to senior product leaders - Taking the time to put together thoughtful questions and suggestions made Milin relevant to those leaders, and they took the time to respond to his messages. That kind of thing does not happen unless you are bringing something relevant. + Creating the content at Riverbed - Milin was relevant to others because of the content he created. We can build relevance through content we create as part of our portfolio of work / public proof of work. + Much of Milin’s relevance came after he listened well or listened actively to be thoughtful in his responses. - This is what we should be doing in any role that has customers (externally facing or internal customers). If you’re in IT, your customers are the people whose problems you are trying to solve or those for whom you are trying to provide a technical solution. + Optimizing who we work for and who we work with is another way to remain relevant. - If we like who we work for and with we will want to provide value to them and therefore remain relevant as a member of that team. * We talked about mentorship in Milin’s career and the bidirectional value flow between mentor and mentee, emphasizing that the mentee should try to bring value to a mentor. + For more discussions about mentoring, check out episodes under the mentoring tag on our website. + We would also point you to 2 specific episodes that represent a masterclass in mentoring: - Episode 288 – Guardrails for Growth: A Mentor’s Experience with Dale McKay (1/2) - Episode 289 – Enhance Your Personal Brand: Feedback as a Catalyst for Change with Dale McKay (2/2)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
As managers inherit larger teams inside flatter organizations, we might immediately point out the challenges. But what about opportunities? Despite the trend, those who seek to lead (in a management capacity or otherwise) have the chance to intentionally build a better culture.
We pulled in former guests Shailvi Wakhlu, Neil Thompson, and Abby Clobridge in a roundtable format to get actionable strategies.
In episode 348, we present actionable strategies for managers and individual contributors to thrive in this new environment. Listen closely to understand the importance of improving one’s communication skills, the unique opportunity and impact of the player coach / team lead, the critical elements of a manager’s role, and advice for job seekers in a tough market.
Original Recording Date: 09-27-2025
Topics – Framing Part 2 of Our Discussion, Opportunity for the Player Coach, Modeling the Benefits of Improved Communication Skills, Management Support of Strong Communicators, Individual Contributors and Communication, Succeeding as a Manager of a Large Team, The Culture of Large Teams, Advice for Job Seekers in a Tough Market, In Closing1:01 – Framing Part 2 of Our Discussion* Last week in Episode 347 – Organizational Flattening: Understanding the Trend, Career Challenges, and Opportunities (1/2), we introduced a slightly different format that we’re continuing this week based on an industry trend. + The trend of organizational flattening in our industry has been top of mind for us. We’re seeing the continued layoffs in tech often times result in fewer management layers and an increase in the number of people reporting to a single manager. + This topic is too big and has too many angles for a single conversation. We wanted to bring together multiple expert perspectives on this issue in a single episode. We’ve reached out to a handful of former guests and sent them specific questions on this topic. Those guests were kind enough to record their answers and send them back to us. + Consider this a Nerd Journey roundtable or collection of hot takes from trusted voices. Our goal is to amplify their advice and provide a diverse set of strategies for navigating this landscape. + In the first episode (last week), we explored the trend of flatter organizations and the consequences for your career path and team culture. This week in part 2 we will focus on actionable insights for thriving in this environment. * Here’s the full set of episode links we will share throughout the conversation if you would like to hear more from one of the former guests who participated: + Shailvi Wakhlu - Episode 210 – A Collection of Ambiguous Experiments with Shailvi Wakhlu (1/2) - Episode 211 – Structure the Levels of Contribution with Shailvi Wakhlu (2/2) - Self-Advocacy: Your Guide to Getting What You Deserve at Work by Shailvi Wakhlu - A special 15% off link for Nerd Journey listeners to Shailvi’s self-advocacy course can be found here. + Neil Thompson - Episode 193 – Communication for Specialists with Neil Thompson (1/2) - Episode 194 – Question Askers and Problem Solvers with Neil Thompson (2/2) - Teach the Geek YouTube Channel + Abby Clobridge - Episode 292 – Library Science: Information Architecture and the Synthesis of Details with Abby Clobridge (1/2) - Episode 293 – Enterprise Knowledge Management: A Consultative Approach to Solving the Right Problems with Abby Clobridge (2/2)
1:42 – Opportunity for the Player Coach* We’ll start by discussing the opportunity of being a player coach (another way we often reference the team lead or tech lead role). * Shailvi Wakhlu is a leadership speaker and data consultant with experience building and leading large organizations, including structuring of job levels for career paths. We spoke to her in episodes 210 and 211 She’s also the author of Self-Advocacy: Your Guide to Getting What You Deserve at Work.
Our question for Shailvi:* As organizations flatten and there are less manager roles, does this create an opportunity for people to become a technical lead or team lead to help the manager scale? We would love to hear any perspective you have on how the team lead / tech lead (i.e. player coach type role) changes as a result of the org changes. + Even without the trend of flattening or decreasing the number of managers, there has consistently been an opportunity for people to demonstrate the mindset of group leadership. Someone could be a project lead, a team lead, or a technical lead. + The technical lead focuses more on technical standards to which a team needs to adhere. + “I think anything that you do that helps your manager manage the team, scale the team, grow the output, or just have better focus…has always been a good way to get your foot in the door for those type of roles in the future.” – Shailvi Wakhlu + Shailvi remembers working at companies where several people wanted to someday get into a management role. Even in times of heavy hiring, there is no way to accommodate everyone who wants to eventually do this. - People stepping into those lead roles would have a leg up on other candidates for future management roles. - “If I see somebody is doing a fantastic job of managing a project, I know that there is a subset of manager responsibilities that they’re able to handle. If I see them doing team events…if I see them stepping up on technical leadership, defining standards…all of these things kind of point to that same larger skillset. And I always encourage that even if there is no formal capacity in which you can do this, even if you create your own opportunity and showcase that…this is a space where I see our team could improve…even without the manager title I think you have plenty of options to contribute at that stage…and definitely in this type of a market where there are less manager roles.” – Shailvi Wakhlu + Shailvi believes the job market will bounce back, and when it does, there will not be enough people who have been managers and have done things like performance management, skill assessment, and hiring. People who can showcase they have some of this experience and the right mindset have a good start toward landing a management role. - Before Shailvi was a manager, she was the hiring lead on her team of 2 people. Shailvi defined the standards (measurements, rubrics, etc.) for the interview process. She tells us doing this made it far easier to transition into a full-time manager role.
5:25 – Modeling the Benefits of Improved Communication Skills* We wanted a perspective on communication in this current climate and reached out to a former guest with expertise in this area. * Neil Thompson is the founder of Teach the Geek, an organization that helps technical professionals in STEM (science, technology, engineering, and mathematics) improve their public speaking and presentation skills. He’s also the host of the Teach the Geek Podcast. We originally spoke to Neil in episodes 193 and 194.
Here’s what we asked Neil:* How do you think team leads or technical leads (sort of that player coach role) play into the development of strong communicators? Where do they help people where managers cannot? + Players (or individual contributors on a team) don’t see themselves as managers and would not be modeling themselves after managers. A player coach is way closer to each member of the team’s current role than a manager. + Player coaches who are adept at communicating well can model these skills for other members of technical staff and educate them on the benefits (and potential opportunities) of improving their communication skills. + Neil points out it could very well be a player coach was moved into that role because of their communication skills. Technical staff members are far more likely to want to invest in improving their communication skills once they see and understand the benefits of doing so (thanks to the modeling of player coaches).
7:09 – Management Support of Strong CommunicatorsAnother question we had for Neil:* "What challenges will managers face trying to develop good communicators when their team is huge, and what can they do to be more effective when this happens? + With a large team, one challenge will be getting buy-in from all team members on the idea of improving their speaking skills. + Assuming this is the case within your organization…Neil encourages leaders to let their direct reports know that improving speaking skills increases visibility within the organization, and opportunities tend to come to those with greater visibility. + Technical people will not want to be passed over for opportunities based on something they can control, especially if they recognize the reasons others have been given new opportunities was due to improved communication skills. And they would certainly be motivated to improve communication with decision makers who can give them opportunity. + As part of his work at Teach the Geek, Neil encourages companies to develop speaker training programs for developing technical staff members. - One challenge to this approach is getting technical staff to agree on the priorities of this kind of training program. Neil suggests sending out a survey to technical staff members to make sure this is well understood. Technical staff may want to understand how to better engage an audience, get ideas for balancing technical depth and clarity, ways to minimize the use of jargon, etc. - If you do take a survey of technical staff, incorporate at least the top 3 priorities as indicated by survey results into a speaker training program.
9:07 – Individual Contributors and CommunicationWe also wanted to know from Neil:* How can the individual contributor develop those strong communication skills to build rapport and communicate the value of their work to a busy leader? + If technical staff members have gone through a speaker training program like was mentioned earlier, they will want to look for opportunities to practice continued development of those skills. + Neil highlights the importance of organizations offering speaking practice opportunities for members of technical staff. - One easy way to do this is through a lunch and learn. This forum is a great way to allow people to give presentations covering their work progress / accomplishments that both managers and even non-technical staff members can listen to and learn from. - Neil points out the usefulness of this information for nontechnical staff members such as HR personnel responsible for screening job candidates. Sitting in on these presentations can, for example, improve the quality of those screening conversations and overall candidate selection rather than relying solely on job descriptions which may be outdated.
10:31 – Succeeding as a Manager of a Large TeamAnother question for Shailvi:* What are your top suggestions for succeeding as a manager of a large team in this environment? + Shailvi says in today’s environment, the definition of a larger team of direct reports has changed. + “A few years back that large team definition was…more than 8. Nowadays I think it’s very common to see people who have 8, 10, 12, 15 direct reports…and nobody’s blinking an eye.” – Shailvi Wakhlu + At her previous job, Shailvi had 6 direct results that trickled down to an organization of 30 people total reporting up to her. + Success when you have a large number of direct reports takes a lot of intentionality. + “What is your role as a manager? One is to provide clarity for your team to make sure they are aligned with business goals…to make sure they know what is going to be rewarded, what is not rewarded, things like that. The other big piece is making sure you are available to help grow the careers of everybody who has taken a chance on you and is putting the fate of their careers…in your hands. So how do you make sure you do those two pieces successfully?” – Shailvi Wakhlu + Shailvi emphasizes the importance of streamlining communication and information sharing in both directions (from you to your employees and in the other direction). Make sure people know what they can expect from you. - Do people know what you will communicate and when you will communicate it? For example, will you openly communicate the necessary context so that people can effectively recalibrate? - Do people have the psychological safety to share their challenges and concerns with you? - Are team members comfortable sharing their professional goals with you (i.e. opportunities and growth areas), and are you providing critical feedback to support pursuit of these goals? + Shailvi also highlights the way a manager delegates as key to success. - Having a large team means there is opportunity for people who want to move into some type of leadership role to gain experience. - “It’s very important to make sure that you are public in your appreciation for people who help you in the smooth running of the team…. If it’s a non-promotable task…if it’s a housekeeping task that nobody’s ever going to get promoted because of…do not outsource that. I think you do a disservice to people’s careers if you’re asking them to do…general housekeeping and you’re basically asking them to do it above their existing job. And, you’re never going to consider that work important enough to actually think that they’re performing at a higher level. So, delegate work that is actually useful. Delegate work that is actually helping them improve their skills and their visibility in showcasing that they have leadership capabilities….” – Shailvi Wakhlu, on managers delegating responsibility which allows the right type of experience
14:48 – The Culture of Large TeamsOne last question for Shailvi:* How can leaders create a culture that is impactful within their organization when the structure of the organization is designed to allow less time spent with each person underneath a leader? + Shailvi feels this is extremely relevant in a world where managers have too many people reporting to them. There is often not enough time to get information flowing between the manager and direct reports for the benefit of the company. + Some of the work Shailvi does as a consultant is with organizations who want to build strong teams optimized for performance, productivity, and profitability. + “I feel that…leaders tend to anchor on the limited time they have with all the people who report up to them that they just sort of spend that in getting status updates…. It’s very one-sided.” – Shailvi Wakhlu - Status updates can be shared in an e-mail or updated on a JIRA board. + “The part that I encourage leaders to think about is how do you create a situation where everybody on your team understands the link between their work and business success…where there is no ambiguity about it, where they clearly understand…this is the part of my job that is going to help the company succeed? And that is how you build that excitement with people….” – Shailvi Wakhlu - A sense of personal ownership usually breeds accountability. To them it won’t just be finishing a project but rather helping the company succeed with a specific goal. + “Creating that culture of transparency, open communication…I think that is something that takes intentionality on the part of the managers. It takes repetition where you keep showcasing how you’re rewarding work, how you are setting expectations. You can’t have unevenness….” – Shailvi Wakhlu - Leaders should use the limited time they have with employees to understand their motivations. Work to help your people with their careers, help them understand the opportunity in front of them, and consistently provide clarity. + “How you show up as a leader is something that is more important than anything else that you say. Are you accountable for your own actions? Are you taking ownership of larger pieces that are under your area of ownership? When leaders can…structure what they want to spend time on, it goes a really long way.” – Shailvi Wakhlu
17:57 – Advice for Job Seekers in a Tough Market* To close our discussion, we wanted some actionable advice for navigating a tough job market. We’ll hear once again from Abby Clobridge. Abby is the founder and principal consultant at FireOak Strategies and has deep expertise in the realm of knowledge management. Abby was a guest in episodes 292 and 293.
Our question for Abby:* In a tough job market, what do you think job seekers should be doing to stand out that maybe they aren’t right now? + Treat your job search like you would a portfolio project. Show what you are doing and what you are learning by building something tangible. It could be automating something, creating a dashboard, or writing a blog describing how you would solve a problem. + Abby says we can also host micro conversations made up of 3-4 peers, mentors, or formal colleagues in a roundtable format. These can be virtual or in-person. This can strengthen your network and benefit everyone involved. + We can also practice visible curiosity by posting about a book we read or a tool we used. Abby calls this “learning out loud” and something that can act as a signal to future employers that we are engaged, adaptable, and someone who wants to connect people.
19:12 – In Closing* We want to say a huge thank you to all of the guests who contributed to this episode! If you want to hear more from them, you can find the full conversations…
+ Abby Clobridge was a guest in episodes 292 and 293.
+ We spoke to Shailvi Wakhlu in episodes 210 and 211 She’s also the author of Self-Advocacy: Your Guide to Getting What You Deserve at Work.
- Here’s a special 15% off link for Nerd Journey listeners to Shailvi’s self-advocacy course.
+ We spoke to Neil Thompson in episodes 193 and 194.
- What did you think of this format, and what other questions need to be answered on this topic? Send us an e-mail at nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com to chime in.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
What happens when layoffs lead to organizational flattening, fewer managers, and larger teams? It’s a trend we’re seeing in the tech industry at large right now impacting team dynamics and career paths. To understand what’s really happening and the overall impact, we pulled in former guests Abby Clobridge, Shailvi Wakhlu, and Leanne Elliott in a roundtable format.
In episode 347, we explore the trend and the unique challenges it presents to consulting firms, managers, and individual contributors working with and inside flatter organizations. Listen closely for the impact to job levels, what this means for top-tier individual contributors, how companies are thinking about knowledge management, employee loneliness and wellbeing, and where some unexpected opportunities lie for those willing to step up.
Original Recording Date: 09-27-2025
Topics – Framing Our Discussion and a Slightly Different Format, Defining the Trend, Impact on Career Structure and Ambiguity, The Challenge of Reaching Top Tier Positions, Internal Risk and Potential Loss of Knowledge, Strains on Execution, Impact to Team Dynamics, From Problem to Opportunity1:01 – Framing Our Discussion and a Slightly Different Format* For today and in next week’s episode, rather than introducing a guest to share their career story and lessons learned, we’re trying something a little different. * Recently we sent a follow up question to a former guest whose response sparked an idea for this format. + The trend of organizational flattening in our industry has been top of mind for us. We’re seeing the continued layoffs in tech often times result in fewer management layers and an increase in the number of people reporting to a single manager. + This topic is too big and has too many angles for a single conversation. We wanted to bring together multiple expert perspectives on this issue in a single episode. We’ve reached out to a handful of former guests and sent them specific questions on this topic. Those guests were kind enough to record their answers and send them back to us. + Consider this a Nerd Journey roundtable or collection of hot takes from trusted voices. Our goal is to amplify their advice and provide a diverse set of strategies for navigating this landscape. + In the first episode (this week), we explore the trend of flatter organizations and the consequences for your career path and team culture. Next week in part 2 we will focus on actionable insights for thriving in this environment. * Here’s the full set of episode links we will share throughout the conversation if you would like to hear more from one of the former guests who participated: + Abby Clobridge - Episode 292 – Library Science: Information Architecture and the Synthesis of Details with Abby Clobridge (1/2) - Episode 293 – Enterprise Knowledge Management: A Consultative Approach to Solving the Right Problems with Abby Clobridge (2/2) + Shailvi Wakhlu - Episode 210 – A Collection of Ambiguous Experiments with Shailvi Wakhlu (1/2) - Episode 211 – Structure the Levels of Contribution with Shailvi Wakhlu (2/2) - Self-Advocacy: Your Guide to Getting What You Deserve at Work by Shailvi Wakhlu - A special 15% off link for Nerd Journey listeners to Shailvi’s self-advocacy course can be found here. + Leanne Elliott - Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2) - Episode 238 – Managers as Culture Keepers with Leanne Elliott (2/2) - Episode 340 – Task Cohesion: Managing a Larger Team in a Flatter Organization amidst a Climate of Uncertainty with Al and Leanne Elliott (1/2) - Episode 341 – Champion Your People: Role Clarity for the IC in the Chaotic World of Work with Al and Leanne Elliott (2/2) - Subscribe to the Truth, Lies and Work Podcast
2:48 – Defining the Trend* Abby Clobridge is the founder and principal consultant at FireOak Strategies and has deep expertise in the realm of knowledge management. Abby was a guest in episodes 292 and 293. We wanted to get an outside perspective from someone who works with many different organizations on various projects.
Our question for Abby:* Within your customer base and set of prospects, do you see companies currently doing organizational flattening of management layers with an increased number of direct reports for managers? And if you have seen it, what do you think is the reason for this? We’ve heard of 20 or more people under a single people manager. + Several of Abby’s clients are going through huge changes, sometimes resulting in entire teams and departments (like IT) being eliminated. In some cases, IT work is being shifted to MSPs (managed service providers), which has pros and cons. + According to Abby, the economic climate and the rise of AI adoption has made this year tumultuous for everyone. + Abby is seeing companies put more and more people under a single people manager. + She tells us that managers with extremely large teams have no way to build real relationships. The large team often results in employees not being able to rely on their manager for much from day to day. + “That kind of dynamic is a recipe for cultural toxicity really quickly too.” – Abby Clobridge
4:25 – Impact on Career Structure and Ambiguity* Shailvi Wakhlu is a leadership speaker and data consultant with experience building and leading large organizations, including structuring of job levels for career paths. We spoke to her in episodes 210 and 211 She’s also the author of Self-Advocacy: Your Guide to Getting What You Deserve at Work.
Our question for Shailvi:* In our previous conversation we talked a lot about job levels. Do you think flatter organizations make it more difficult to clearly define those job levels, or are big companies that are cutting head count to flatten even thinking about this? What do you wish these companies would consider? + “The stated reason that companies move towards flatter organizations, I think, is because they want to get rid of hierarchy. They want to say…we don’t want the lack of a higher title to restrict you from having a greater impact on the company. And I think that’s a fair goal…. However, I think in reality how it actually ends up playing out is, one, when you have a very flat organization…people don’t know what will be rewarded. And two, there is a lot of ambiguity about what everyone’s job is…. If everyone is responsible for something, typically no one is responsible for something.” – Shailvi Wakhlu + It makes sense that a company would want people at all levels to feel empowered to contribute. + Accountability comes through making distinctions in roles. Shailvi gives the example of senior engineers being expected to be more on top of certain things, and the same expectation would then not apply to junior engineers. + People are thinking about the kind of contributions that would be rewarded within an organization as well as how to grow their career. Typically, titles are used to acknowledge the level of contributions an employee has made. Moving from one well-defined job level to another gives a person a sense of progress and something to aim for. - “So, if there is not that definition of what is expected at each level, some people…may not have the tools to figure out what they should aim for…. Instead, I think the reason people started defining job levels was so that you could anchor on outcomes and impact.” – Shailvi Wakhlu + Years ago, companies would anchor on years of experience and hand out titles based on that metric, but the flaw in this approach was that it did not reward impact. - A specific job level shares the expectation of an employee’s impact on technical progress for the company, business results, communication skills, etc. - “If you want people to anchor on that, if you want people to strive for that higher skill set, you have to actually define them. If you keep them super ambiguous, if you keep it super hidden, then…I think that’s also a reason why companies end up with things that look like favoritism.” – Shailvi Wakhlu, on job levels - Without clearly defined job levels, a person doesn’t know what they need to do to showcase the kind of impact a company would like them to have.
8:41 – The Challenge of Reaching Top Tier PositionsAnother question for Shailvi:* We’ve spoken a lot on the show about the individual contributor’s career path or what we call the technical career path and getting up to the role of principal engineer inside an organization. Would the flatter organization mean it becomes infinitely harder to rise to the level of principal engineer, that highest tier of individual contributors? + Flatter organizations are not necessarily handing out titles that can help you when applying for a different job. + “Even if within your own company people know you contribute at a very high level, that external signaling may not be very obvious to another employer. When you have…principal engineer, staff engineer, those type of titles…it is easier for a new company to understand just in context that you were in the highest tier of individual contributors.” – Shailvi Wakhlu + Shailvi might split this into 2 pieces – rising up inside your existing organization and transitioning to a new job or different organization which may have a harder time measuring your impact. - Shailvi does not think a flatter organization stops you from reaching top-tier individual contributor. It may, in fact, open up new opportunities to work on highly impactful projects. Access to these projects is usually based on past performance on projects, how you advocate for your work, etc. - “If you keep showcasing that you are capable of handling more and more complexity, eventually you will get the highest value projects that have that very high C-suite level visibility…. Just the fact that it’s a flatter org should not stop you from having impact at the highest levels of what affects the business, what has the most visibility, and what is most critical to the company’s stated goals.” – Shailvi Wakhlu - The problem will come when you are trying to join an organization where job levels are very clearly defined. A company may want a principal engineer, and even if you have the impact of one but don’t have the title on your resume, applicant tracking systems may disqualify you automatically. If you are relying on people reading your resume, add as many indicators as possible that the projects you worked on were at the highest level of impact. Shailvi suggests possibly stating that the principal engineer title did not exist because of the flat organization (if that was the case). - Professional networking is very important to help showcase the level of your impact if you’re looking to land a principal title somewhere but don’t have that at your current company. Shailvi mentions talking with others in our industry, talking with recruiters, and talking with hiring managers. - “There are many ways that you can show up as an industry leader that are outside of your company. You can talk at industry conferences. You can have a lot of content that you put out there which makes it very clear to people….” – Shailvi Wakhlu
12:43 – Internal Risk and Potential Loss of KnowledgeAnother question for Abby:* "Is organizational flattening causing significant skill gaps at companies and creating opportunities for companies like yours or actually making it more difficult? In other words, are companies wanting to cut employee head count also cutting down the number of consulting firms they will partner with, or are they leaning into working with consulting firms more than they were previously? + “Layoffs and organizational flattening and, weirdly enough, AI…that’s all creating a heightened awareness of the importance of organizational knowledge management.” – Abby Clobridge + Abby says executive teams are starting to understand the importance of having organizational knowledge captured in a way that is documented well and easy to access, reuse, and build upon. - It is important to allow people to shift roles without losing more organizational knowledge than necessary. - “While we’ve made huge strides with AI adoption in the workplace, there still isn’t a magic vacuum that can pull knowledge out of someone’s head. When critical staff members leave, institutional memory leaves with them. Good knowledge management can’t stop that entirely, but it can soften the blow and help organizations keep moving forward.” – Abby Clobridge + Flattening is a chance to re-think how knowledge flows across your organization. Fewer management layers could mean fewer bottlenecks. If done correctly, flattening can lead to greater transparency within teams and the mindset that knowledge is a shared asset. There is a balance between keeping the right level of security and making knowledge accessible, and it can look different for different organizations. + For companies partnering with consulting firms, Abby says it’s a “mixed bag.” - Some companies are cutting consulting budgets, while others are shifting to more fractional and outsourced roles. It depends on the company. - “To be honest, it feels a lot like the summer of 2020 where organizations were suddenly trying to pivot or figure out what they were going to do and how to handle COVID.” – Abby Clobridge
14:54 – Strains on Execution* We wanted to know how this climate impacts company execution.
Another question for Abby:* Does the current climate make it more difficult to help your customers “solve the right problems” when the team is leaner / smaller and is under a heavier workload? How have you adjusted your strategy to help customers solve the right problem as a result of these situations? For example, does a flatter organization make it more difficult for customers to commit to spending time in the diagnosis / discovery phase because executive leaders want faster results from smaller teams? + Abby says she has seen it go both ways. - Some teams want to get through discovery and diagnosis quickly because they are stretched too thin, but experience has revealed moving past discovery too quickly or without talking to all the right people is a mistake. - Most of the time Abby and her team have been able to build an approach with clients to balance speed with getting things right. - Several new projects are focused on preparing organizations for knowledge management in the age of AI. - “These are really long term investments that the organization wants to get right, so even though everyone is anxious to get started, execs realize that it’s worth a few extra weeks or a few extra interviews to make sure we’re able to get a good sense of what’s going on and what the organization is really trying to accomplish so we can give the best possible advice.” – Abby Clobridge - Some companies end up making big platform or system decisions far too quickly and often times without the right voices in the room. This only leads to costly mistakes. - “Technology decisions aren’t made in a vacuum anymore. Very few platforms live as silos. There are almost always downstream effects. So, if you move too quickly without requirements, impact analysis, and honest conversation about tradeoffs…you end up with ripple effects that can be very costly and disruptive. It doesn’t mean decisions have to drag on for months. The key is balance – moving at a healthy pace but giving people enough time to digest, weigh impacts, and make better informed decisions.” – Abby Clobridge
16:57 – Impact to Team Dynamics* We wanted a perspective on team dynamics, so we brought in Leanne Elliott. Leanne is a business psychologist and with her husband Al, hosts the Truth, Lies, and Work podcast. We spoke to Leanne in episodes 237 and 238, and she also appeared along with Al in episode 340 and 341. The questions we’re asking her are follow ups from the conversation we had with them on organizational flattening.
Our question for Leanne:* We have seen companies with 1 or more pods under each manager where there is some kind of pod lead / team lead within each pod who helps the manager do things like track work, give team members feedback, etc. Have you seen this structure work well in flatter organizations? + Leanne has seen the pod structure work quite well, but more often than not, she has seen it go badly. + This has a tendency to create an “us and them” culture, especially when people do similar work but are part of different teams. If there is not advertisement or reinforcement of the core mission bringing everyone together, this can breed workplace incivility (cliques, gossip, division, etc.) and create microcultures. + With a complex structure like this, it requires more care, close monitoring, intentional management, and a willingness to make adjustments when needed. - “My worry is that if it’s not handled well, it’s not done with the best of intentions…then it can mean that people feel more disconnected, there’s more infighting, and ultimately more isolated.” -Leanne Elliott + The latest State of the Workplace Report from Gallup found that 1 in 5 employees have stated they feel lonely at work. This is an organizational issue and not just a personal issue. - “People often think that loneliness is about maybe being shy or introverted, but it really isn’t. There’s no link between personality and how lonely somebody feels. What does matter, according to the research, is the environment. It’s a complicated thing as well to look at your organization as a supervisor, as a colleague, as a senior manager and try and identify the people that are lonely and try to fix that. People don’t act lonely at work.” – Leanne Elliott - People are skilled at masking how they really feel and may seem chatty, gregarious, or outgoing. - “…because that loneliness is so stigmatized that people will pretend it’s fine rather than the fear of repercussions because that psychological safety doesn’t exist if they did speak up and say something about it.” – Leanne Elliott - Having leads in each pod who are closer to the group may foster an environment of psychological safety. But, this is not necessarily going to be the same behavior senior leaders who have the power to do something to change the environment will exhibit. A lead / supervisor may recognize there is a problem with how someone is feeling but be unable to do anything to really change the overall environment. - If people do open up inside the pod structure, there is a chance they will remain disconnected over time, which chips away at wellbeing. - “As with anything in the workplace, these types of things to…have the most positive impact require attention, require support, and require the agility to change these experimental structures when they’re not working.” – Leanne Elliott
21:13 – From Problem to Opportunity* Maybe we could look at this trend as an opportunity?
Another question for Leanne:* In a world where manager to individual contributor ratios are changing, does this create an opportunity for individual contributors to take more of a player / coach or team leader kind of role?
+ Leanne does think this will create an opportunity for individual contributors to take on a coach, team leader, or supervisor kind of role. People will step up into these roles when needed, and it’s usually the more conscientious members of the team who do.
- Some may seek this role out of ego, but the small nature of the team will make this highly visible. It’s not usually out of ego that someone takes the role, but it can happen.
- If this role is an official role, it can be a great way to develop people.
- “It’s that chance to try out people management in a more hands-on, practical way…so less theory, on the job training. You’re close to the work as well so you understand what it really takes to deliver that rather than being a removed senior manager…. And for the group as well, people do look for someone to follow.” – Leanne Elliott
- For groups of this size (larger than 12 or 13), it is hard to connect with everyone individually. We would often look for a shared goal, mission, or values. People look for someone to show them what that is and how to make sense of it all. The leader in larger groups gives us clarity, sets a tone, and demonstrates what is expected. This helps employees feel safe, more confident, and like they belong (all of which are great for wellbeing and lead to team cohesion).
- “The issue with these types of supervisor roles is typically they aren’t formal. So, someone will step up, or maybe they’ll get nudged into it by a senior manager. But there’s no support, there’s no extra pay, and there’s no real recognition. Now, that’s fine initially. That’s what we call ‘hope work,’ work where someone can see the benefit of stepping into an informal role without any kind of extra pay or recognition on the understanding and the view that this will be for a finite period of time. And then the pay and the support and the recognition will come. If it doesn’t (and it typically doesn’t in informal supervisor roles), then that can build resentment over time, and it can lead to this person disengaging and burning out…which is a danger because typically it’s the high performers that will step into these types of roles. But when it is done properly…right structure, right support…then yeah, it can be a great steppingstone for anyone who is looking to move into a management role who doesn’t have any experience or training at that point.” – Leanne Elliott
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We want to say a huge thank you to all of the guests who contributed to this episode! If you want to hear more from them, you can find the full conversations…
- Abby Clobridge was a guest in episodes 292 and 293.
- We spoke to Shailvi Wakhlu in episodes 210 and 211 She’s also the author of Self-Advocacy: Your Guide to Getting What You Deserve at Work.
- Here’s a special 15% off link for Nerd Journey listeners to Shailvi’s self-advocacy course.
- We spoke to Leanne Elliott in episodes 237 and 238, and she also appeared along with Al in episode 340 and 341.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Episode 346 is dedicated to the memory of Todd Cochrane. Todd was the founder of Blubrry Podcasting, a Navy veteran and electronics technician, a geek and lover of technology at heart, a content creator, a podcasting pioneer, and a consistent friend to the greater podcast community. This week we’re airing our full interview with Todd as a single episode (previously released in episodes 250 and 251).
As we begin this week, Nick and John frame what you’re about to hear with a story from Podcast Movement 2025 where Nick got to meet Todd in person. Listen closely for the shifts Todd made to his company as market conditions changed, and think about the applicability of this strategy for your career.
Original Recording Date of the Interview with Todd: 10-06-2023
Topics – Meet Todd Cochrane, Naval Service and Technical Knowledge, Program Management, An Injury and a Different Role, Getting into Podcasting and Monetization, A Tech Wave and a Shift, Diversification of Focus and Expertise, Corporate and Individual Roadmaps, Leadership and Employee Engagement, Developing a Useful AI Strategy5:49 – Meet Todd Cochrane* Todd Cochrane is the founder and CEO of Blubrry Podcasting. Blubrry is a full service podcast hosting platform. + At the time of this recording they are working with around 100,000 shows / podcasts at a variety of levels (some shows using Blubrry for hosting, some for analytics, some using the PowerPress plugin for WordPress). + The team at Blubrry is about 17 people, and they have been in business since 2005. + Nerd Journey proudly uses Blubrry statistics and the PowerPress plugin!
6:51 – Naval Service and Technical Knowledge* In vocational tech school Todd took 2 years of electronics and then joined the Navy in 1983. His official title at that time was aviation electronics technician. * Todd also served as a back end operator in specialized P3 aircraft used more as platforms for intelligence collection. Todd tells us he was involved in this kind of work for 25 years. + During his tenure in the Navy, Todd got exposed to something called special projects. + People would bring a box for a specific function in the plane (a “box de jour”), and Todd would do the mechanical and electrical designs for these to get them in the planes quickly. * Todd’s true Navy background was in synthetic aperture radar and involved work with Sandia National Labs. * To pair with his deep technical knowledge of electronics, Todd started to tinker with other things like bulletin boards and downloading shareware while stationed in Guam. + This was back in the days of dial up modems. + “I really was kind of a geek in all aspects of job and life….When the bulletin board era died, I basically became a blogger.” – Todd Cochrane, reflecting on his time in the Navy. + Todd calls himself a failed blogger, feeling he was not great at it. This was around 2002. + In 2004 Todd got into podcasting but continued to work another job. After retiring from the Navy in 2007, Todd spent 12 years as a tech rep (basically the same job he had been doing but as a civilian). + Todd continued to work with and for Naval personnel until 2019 while running his own company on the side. + “Needless to say those were some exciting years because there was not a lot of free time.” – Todd Cochrane, on working a full time job and running his own company on the side + Todd has only been out of aviation for about 4 years now but has been running his business (Blubrry) the entire time along the way since it began as a side project. * Todd retired from the Navy as a senior chief (an E8). He did have the opportunity to go warrant officer but was happy being a chief, “punching out” just before hitting the 26 year mark for Navy service. + This was largely because they offered him a civilian job, and he took the opportunity to make the change. + Todd tells us he was exposed to a great deal of high end technology during his work (much of it will remain classified for many years). + Looking back, Todd says it’s pretty amazing to see the advances in technology from 1983 when he joined to when he retired and up to the time of this recording because of the technology changing so fast.
11:08 – Program Management* Was designing the boxes for airplanes like being a product designer or a product maanger? + Todd’s degree from Emory Riddle is in professional aeronautics with a minor in program management, and he was able to put the program management skills to good work. + For systems that the Navy personnel designed, built, and owned they had input into the capabilities desired as well as features they wanted. - “It was a full scheme. Some of the systems were born from an idea – built, designed, UX, UI, the whole nine yards…that I was able to have a hand touch in.” – Todd Cochrane, on working with a team to design and build systems for Naval aviation + In the last 15 years of his work, Todd says someone would show up with a box that he and others would have to wire up / connect. These ranged from computers that needed installing to electronics that need to hook into multiple systems in an aircraft. - From day to day, Todd didn’t really know what might come his way. This made the job quite unique. - They might get a call from a well known company who wanted them to test something, for example. - “So our job was really to kind of test and evaluate, and more importantly, in a real world situation, not necessarily on some range….It was fun.” – Todd Cochrane + In the case of 787 or 777 commercial aircraft, they are built exactly the same (with exception of some of the electronics in the cockpit). Often times the supply chain is setup so you could walk over to the airplane next to you and “rob it” for the parts you needed. - In Todd’s situation, everything was unique, and each airplane was different in some sense. It was important to have configuration control across multiple aircraft. - Sometimes they would need to upgrade multiple airplanes at a time.
14:06 – An Injury and a Different Role* In 2004 Todd was hurt badly in a swimming accident in Bahrain, which grounded him from flying. * Todd was in Waco, Texas doing contract enforcement – making sure taxpayer money was spent wisely and monitoring aircraft builds. + Todd says he saw a lot of the government / civilian interaction during this time, and it was a very interesting job to do for a few years. * Todd had insight into the process of building aircraft from beginning to delivery of and testing of aircraft. + The team was multi-faceted and in multiple locations (i.e. teams with some specialties in the northern US, others elsewhere, etc.). + Specific systems might require their own reviews and discussions and planning. + Budget and what could be done within the time frame were also factors. It was a team effort. + Todd tells us there were also subject matter experts (or SMEs) for various systems. + Todd has publicly shared that his background was in electronic warfare, synthetic aperture radar, etc. while on active duty for the Navy. He would have been considered a SME for these kinds of systems during his service. - Todd would work with and support the team putting in systems for which he was SME as well as the sailor who was deployed and had run into issues (i.e. provide troubleshooting / fly out somewhere to resolve the issue, etc.). - The role was part design and implementation as well as ongoing platform support. * Nick feels like this SME role is extremely analogous to life as an IT generalist. + Todd says it would have been very bad for someone to infiltrate the software they used software. As such a number of security measures were put into place to help prevent this. + The IT group gave people like Todd the hardest time because they might lock something down so tight it causes something else to break. And Todd calls this “par for the course.” + Todd says having this experience set him up well for success later when he pursued working for his company full-time. + “For me the transition from military to civilian was pretty smooth because I had worked with civilians a lot….So I didn’t have this mindset of someone that maybe just came out of the military that had never had a lot of civilian interaction.” – Todd Cochrane, on transitioning out of the Navy and how it might be different than others leaving military service * Todd had been running his company as his part-time job for a number of years until he transitioned to working there full time. + While still working in the Navy, Todd had to be very careful about keeping his business and Navy work completely separate. + The separation was an important part of security clearance reviews, and Todd even had to ask permission to have his own business. + Todd would leave his phone in the car during his normal workday and take business calls either during lunch or after work to help keep the separation. + “But when I transitioned, it really made me realize I should have probably done it about 10 years earlier.” – Todd Cochrane, reflecting on his transition to running his business full time * For the last 4 years, Todd’s job as CEO of Blubrry has been coordinating with the software development teams, production, and marketing. + Todd says they use Scrum at Blubrry and that he is essentially the Scrum Master in many ways despite being the owner. His project management skills have come in handy.
19:29 – Getting into Podcasting and Monetization* When Todd speaks to being in Waco, TX he was in a full body clam shell after smashing his L1 vertebrae in a swimming pool accident. + Todd tells us he was lucky to be alive and be able to walk after the huge spinal cord displacement from the accident. + Todd worked in an unairconditioned shop after being able to walk again (still in Waco) and was exhausted at the end of most days. + He would spend evenings on his laptop surfing the internet and stumbled upon Adam Curry’s Daily Source Code, one of the early podcasts. + At this time (October 2004) Todd was a tech blogger who didn’t have many people reading his site, but he liked to talk. + Todd picked up a cheap portable microphone at Wal-Mart and started recording a podcast. He already understood things like XML that one needed to know to get a podcast online back then and was able to execute on his own. + “Really the eureka moment came when I woke up one morning and my webhost said, ‘hey, you’re out of bandwidth. We’ve shut you down.’” – Todd Cochrane, on an interesting situation after starting a podcast in the early days + There was no Blubrry at this time, and the only way to fix the problem was to spend more money on shared hosting accounts. Todd’s podcast website had to be moved around every few days at that time to keep it going. - October 9th, 2023 marked the anniversary of Todd’s 19th year of doing podcasting! * Todd was spending a lot of money to keep the show online. When he returned to Hawaii and let his wife know what he was doing, she didn’t really know what podcasting was (almost no one did at that time). But, Todd’s wife told him he needed to be making money from this endeavor after a year or two or would have to stop. * In November of the same year, Todd received an e-mail from a publishing company asking him to write the first book on podcasting. + At first he was not sure if they were serious. But it turns out they were and offered him a sizable advance to do the book even though he did not consider himself good with grammar or a writer. + Agreeing to write the book fixed Todd’s money issue. + Todd eventually started his own tech network and then in 2005 GoDaddy called Todd wanting to sponsor his podcast. - GoDaddy is still a sponsor of Todd’s show Geek News Central. + At this time Todd was one of the very few who had advertising on his podcast. He wasn’t quite sure how to charge in the beginning. After a month of sponsorship GoDaddy got around 370 customers and wanted to sponsor Todd’s show for a full year. - “Here’s one of those things where you have to understand your worth, and I really had no idea what my worth was.” – Todd Cochrane, on having to come up with an amount to charge GoDaddy to sponsor his show - Todd says he ultimately gave a price that was far too low (an underbid as he calls it), but in the moment he suggested a bonus if GoDaddy converted a certain number of customers as a result of the show. Ultimately Todd’s contact at GoDaddy agreed to this. - The lady Todd was working with to construct a deal asked if he knew anyone else looking to advertise with GoDaddy. Todd said yes and that he needed a couple of weeks to get back to her. + The tech network Todd had built had 12-13 shows he could potentially represent and take a percentage of the proceeds. + “And on my next podcast I said, ‘I need a lawyer, I need a MBA, I need a graphics guy, and I need programmer. And we’re having a call in 10 days. If you’re one of those, be on it……’ And in the end we formed RawVoice, which is the parent company for Blubrry, over the telephone. And we all had regular jobs, so everyone was working this at night.” – Todd Cochrane, on the beginnings of his business - Todd made the ask on his show and got all the personas he needed on a call. - The company was profitable from month 1, and each member of the group contributed some of their own money in the beginning to fund the startup. - Todd was told he was too old at 40 to receive a round of funding from venture capitalists in silicon valley. And it would have required the entire team to move there (not feasible with everyone having a family). - “But the one thing we were always smart with is we knew that we had to have money in the bank. We knew we had to be profitable. We knew we had to make payroll because…I didn’t have $25 million of VC to use. We had to build this slowly, and that’s what we did over the years. We built it slowly and never extended ourselves too far.” – Todd Cochrane
26:16 – A Tech Wave and a Shift* John mentions Todd identified what we would call a technology wave, was passionate about what he was doing, and he made a bet. + Todd maybe could have gone to work for someone looking to monetize in this space but made a bet. The structures Todd had put in place enabled starting a business without too much work compared to someone with a cold start. + Todd says in a lot of ways the team figured things out as they went with the first product being an “abject failure.” But the team learned from this experience and made changes to their model. + "We build a lot of stuff, and if something is not working, I don’t dwell on it. I don’t ride that ship into the ground. We move on. Maybe we keep the product, and maybe we don’t. " – Todd Cochrane + Todd mentions many people with a product or idea believe in it so much they burn all their money and don’t make a change or shift early enough. + In the early days Todd’s company was like a media agency and represented podcasters for ad deals. Most shows they represented were fairly small, and their second product in 2006 allowed them to track podcast listening statistics. + As larger more popular shows came online, Todd could see the advertising budgets shrink and shift to be put into these larger shows. - As a result of seeing this trend, Todd’s company did a strategic shift to become a service provider. - “So as the advertising revenue was declining the service business kind of crossed in the middle, and we dodged a bullet. We would not have made it had we not shifted to a service business….Keep your eye on the ball, what’s going on in the space. At that time I had 5 competitors. Now I have 30.” – Todd Cochrane, on a strategic company shift + Todd tell us his product is commoditized today and competes today on features based on feedback from customers and the market. - In the technology sector, companies have to look around and understand what is happening (cannot be blind to this). - “You do have to teach the old dog new tricks. You have to.” – Todd Cochrane, on the need for companies to adapt to changing market conditions - The above is also true for knowledge workers, especially with the growth and emphasis on AI (artificial intelligence). If people do not stay current and get educated on these technologies, they may find themselves out of a job in a few years. + When Todd originally built his show (that first podcast), he was trying to build authority. Todd wanted a press pass to CES (Consumer Electronics Show), which he eventually did get. - This was before his wife’s mention of monetization. - “I did it out of pure desire just to go and hag out and check that show out….Then things kind of morphed as time went on.” – Todd Cochrane, on the reason he started his podcast in the first place
30:42 – Diversification of Focus and Expertise* John says we’ve heard about startups and the term “pivoting.” It may not be a pivot of the company but a diversification of where success and money will come from (which is also true for an individual). + John shares that at one point his ability to crimp a CAT5 cable was a skill that brought money in. But if he had held tight to this and focused on it holistically forever, John would not have a job right now. + Diversifying a skill base or what provides value to an employer or a business (i.e. your own business) is something we can do to keep ourselves from having market forces destroy us. + As we age we get more expensive to employers, making it even more important to keep our skills current and requiring that we bring expertise to our next role. + Early on in Todd’s Navy career a friend / mentor named Randy gave him some great advice. - “You just need to attach yourself to the smartest person in the room and suck them dry, basically learn everything they know or everything they will tell you.” – Advice from Todd Cochrane’s friend Randy + Todd says using this strategy has really paid off for him long term, and he does this today with his CTO at Blubrry (someone who knows the tech well and someone that Todd trusts to provide direction). + “I think it’s more than surrounding yourself. I think if you are in a field that you’re trying to stay current on, you need to become the person other people want to attach to. But when you’re early in your career it’s easy to be annoyed by that older wise individual. But they have so much experience.” – Todd Cochrane + Todd tells the story of asking someone with more experience at Sandia National Labs for help on a schematic. The person told Todd exactly what to do to fix the problem (which worked). But Todd didn’t leave it there. He went back to the person and asked how they knew their suggestion would fix the problem. - “A 15-minute conversation I had with him literally fixed hundreds of problems that I had going forward years in advance. When you have that opportunity to get help from…a genius and they can bring the topic down to your level, man you just need to…milk that dry.” – Todd Cochrane, on picking the brain of a brilliant colleague with more experience - Todd thinks that advice from Randy (who is still a friend to this day) was one of those pivotal moments / pieces of career advice. * Nick feels like the above experience is an iteration of being mindful of our gaps in knowledge just like when Todd got on his show and asked people with different expertise for help. It’s learning from others but also humility. + Todd says he was a high school graduate going into the Navy and didn’t get a degree until he had been in the Navy for 20 years. In a way he was getting credit for much of what he had learned via the school of hard knocks. + Todd has seen people fail because they hung out with others who may have been fun people but who just were not going to advance in a company. It’s important to surround ourselves with good people. * John points out that just like skills diversification when one is riding a technology wave, it’s also about having a diverse set of people around us whose experience we can call upon to fill gaps in our own expertise. + We cannot be experts in everything. Having access to others with different expertise can enable the kinds of pivots we spoke about earlier (for the individual or for a business). + As company owner and founder, Todd would rather collaboratively come up with a plan with his team than just give them a directive. - Todd calls himself a geek and says there are times where he wants something geeky (i.e. a feature) that 90% of his customers may not ever need. It’s important to be careful and prioritize for the 90%. - There are certainly times when Todd’s team are building a feature that is intended to promote adoption (i.e. building it for only a small subset of customers) like some of the podcasting 2.0 work they have done. But these occasions are pretty rare, and the team knows why they are building it. + Todd says the team are very cognizant of the products and services roadmap when making decisions, and he looks at the year’s roadmap every day. Every 2 weeks there is an oversight meeting to discuss the roadmap with other company leaders. - Priorities may need to change based on the marketplace conditions. - “You have to be careful. Because if you’re working Scrum…if you interrupt the cycle you could really do huge damage.” – Todd Cochrane, on being flexible in your product roadmaps
38:47 – Corporate and Individual Roadmaps* Nick posits that most of us do not have a roadmap for ourselves and our careers, nor do we look at it daily. + Todd says the roadmap is the company roadmap but might as well be his personal roadmap. + John emphasizes the company’s execution on a roadmap is analogous to a individual contributor’s view of themselves / their career as a product. - Excellence in what a company is doing today is of course important. - Companies often have innovation budgets to enable building products people might not know they need until they use it / can have it (i.e. the iPhone or perhaps certain podcast hosting features). - Maybe as individuals, in addition to excelling at what we do today (a baseline of excellence in execution), we should have our own innovation budget allotted for building new skills and learning about the next / current technology wave. This avoids us from being locked into excellence in only what we do today just like Todd’s company was able to shift away from being only a media intermediary in the early days. + Todd says his team is fully remote but does come together a couple of times per year for planning purposes (1 time in person, 1 time 6 months later remotely as a follow up to that). - These meetings are a chance to look at what is going well, what isn’t, and a chance to solicit new ideas. - During these discussions, teams criticize one another and give feedback. It is a very frank set of discussions that results in action items. Todd says they try to preserve people’s feelings during the discussions, but it is about honest evaluation of how things are going. - The above will be quite difficult for companies with more than 20 employees. Todd says the approach works well for his company. - Todd also tells us a bad apple (1 person) can make a very negative impact on the company. This person might not be staying current or is constantly fighting with others. - “Sometimes it’s better to cut those folks loose. Even though you think you shouldn’t, sometimes getting rid of that just maybe 1 person can completely change how a company’s atmosphere is and the flow and the speed….So I learned this late – that sometimes it’s just better to say ‘thank you for your work it’s time to part ways.’ It’s just like pivoting. Sometimes the employee mix needs to change.” – Todd Cochrane, on making difficult decisions around people - Todd says there was someone who left the company about a year ago, and the business had a complete transformation (in a good way) as a result.
43:10 – Leadership and Employee Engagement* Many people moving into leadership are not prepared for the hard personnel decisions. What are other challenges Todd has noticed as CEO, being in charge of the roadmap and the people? + Todd says he has been quite lucky with very little turnover, having only a couple of people leave the company over time and a couple of others get asked to leave. Overall the team has been strong (a possible sign they are doing something right). + “We all get bored if we’re doing the same thing, but we’re in a business where we can build new stuff all the time and have new challenges. So I think from my perspective…if you’re not innovating, then your employees are going to get bored, and they’re going to go some place that is innovating to give them a challenge.” – Todd Cochrane + Ideally Todd wants employees to feel their work is exciting, that it is making a difference, and for them to be excited to start work on it again each day. + In IT sometimes work is drudgery (or “the thunking” as Todd calls it) and is not something we enjoy doing but need to do (i.e. keeping servers up to date). + Nick mentions Todd recognized the need for people to be interested and engaged in their work, and Todd has iterated upon that methodology in terms of the way people engage with the company and its products. - If you’re listening to this episode and intend to become a leader but have not thought through the importance of people understanding the purpose in their work, think on it. It was extremely important for Todd to share the vision with employees. - “How is my role here having a larger purpose for this organization? And hopefully that gives me some personal satisfaction and sense of accomplishment.” – Nick Korte, on the importance of leaders helping employees to understand the purpose of their work + Todd says he came from a field where he was able to work on multiple projects on a monthly / semi-annual basis. This kept him excited about the job. - There were legacy systems to support, of course, but there were brand new systems. - “I understood that that job satisfaction of having something new to work on is fresh, challenging, you have to really think…I mean hard, hard problems to solve.” – Todd Cochrane - Todd gives the analogy of working with airplanes. Both power and space are constrained resources, and there is a give and take between them. - Translating this to running a company, there is server space as well as mind space. They would not want to do something that will be an extreme burden from a technical support perspective, for example. + AI (artificial intelligence) has Todd a little frightened, but the strategy for the company is to not be locked into a single language model (Claude, ChatGPT, Meta, etc.). - “We’re using the dumbest AI we’ll ever use today. It’s exciting at the same time, but it’s hard to pick a strategy that is not going to be obsolete in 2 weeks.” – Todd Cochrane + Todd says right now (at the time of this recording), the economy is tight with podcasting being fairly flat. But he and his team have been through cycles of economic downturn and know what to expect, having been profitable every year of their existence. - “As long as you keep the green line above the red line I think that’s the key in almost any business industry. Otherwise you don’t survive.” – Todd Cochrane
48:36 – Developing a Useful AI Strategy* John understands the desire to stay flexible and diverse in terms of different language models and asks Todd about his AI strategy and where he feels like it will help podcasters.
+ Todd always likes to ask himself whether something the company is doing will help the customer base by saving time or making a customer product better.
+ Todd says helpful areas for AI use will likely be content creation and post production. Many companies are doing things related to social media, and Todd doesn’t think he wants to compete in that space.
+ The number one question Todd gets asked consistently by content creators is “how do I grow my show?” Any use of AI tools would need to help in this area.
+ The team at Blubrry has taken several months to think through a strategy.
- For those who follow Todd’s shows Geek News Central and New Media Show, he is public about the things in the AI space with which he has experimented.
- The “thunking” is in creating documents (outlines, drafts, proposals, etc.) and will likely be done by the AI. The creative individual will still be needed, but some of the show prep (based on creative thinking) could be handled by AI, for example.
- “On the other side of it, you have to be the subject matter expert of your topic, your content, so that when the production piece is done by the AI you can validate….You are going to be the person that is going to review the output.” – Todd Cochrane
- We need to remember that the output from AI tools will not be perfect and won’t be for some time. Todd says the work of his team will be to educate creators on this fact.
- Todd references a book on NATOPS with all the information needed (sort of like a bible for the airplane). There is a disclaimer on the book that it is not a substitute for common sense.
- For example, if an AI provides poor topic suggestions, we need to not use them. Podcasters need to know that these are merely tools to help with content creation and production.
- Blubrry will be working on tools to help podcasters grow their show, but it will be tricky. People need to understand the models / AI tools will lie.
- Todd says for a show like ours where we are having a ranging discussion, AI has a hard time summarizing it. But for shows that are one point after another, AI does well there. Nerd Journey may not get as much value out of a transcript analysis as a news show covering a set number of topics.
- Todd shares the results of some tests lately that were lower quality than what an intern at his company should produce.
+ Nick feels like this is just the tools and the SME (subject matter expert) changing a little.
- Todd says we (as the SME) need to be able to check to see if output is too flowery, if the AI added something that wasn’t discussed in a show summary, etc. He feels the tools will get better over time (pretty quickly) but just are not there yet.
+ John mentions these tools help with the problem of starting with a blank page as well as with summarization. It’s easier to work from a draft than from nothing.
- Todd says podcasters have often been lazy with show notes.
- “You record for your audience. You write for Google.” – Todd Cochrane on podcast creation and show notes (advice for the podcaster)
- As language models become more widespread searches will change, and we want our content to be easily findable. The metadata we feed into Google is becoming more important.
- To listen to other tributes to Todd, check out Remembering Todd Cochrane – Podcast Hall of Famer and Blubrry CEO and, GNC Host and Geek News Central # 1843
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For links to the individual episodes with Todd that were combined for this special episode, check out:
- Episode 250 – From Naval Electronics to Podcaster and Business Owner with Todd Cochrane (1/2)
- Episode 251 – A CEO’s Approach to Product and Career Roadmaps with Todd Cochrane (2/2)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Pursuing a role in leadership is one thing, but what happens when you try to return to life as an individual contributor? Our guest, Paul Nadeau, equates this experience to having “resume damage.”
Join us for episode 345 as we dive into the differences between pursuing a technical career path as an individual contributor and a career path in people management from a guest who has experienced both. Paul reveals a strategy for gaining expertise by sharing examples of his willingness to find and clean up a mess.
Through turbulent times in the tech industry, how can we give to our network with no agenda? Listen to Paul describe his approach to meeting new people, supporting them through layoffs, or just providing advice…all through merely having a conversation.
Original Recording Date: 08-28-2025
Topics – Technical Career Paths vs. Management Career Paths, Returning to Individual Contributor, Specialty Decisions, Nurturing Your Network and a Focus on Helping Others3:15 – Technical Career Paths vs. Management Career Paths* John mentions we have spoken on the show about the technical / individual contributor path to progression as well as the management career path. + There is usually a path to stay an individual contributor in medium to large size organizations (i.e. the ability to progress to senior engineer, staff engineer, principal engineer, distinguished engineer, etc.). + “If you want to progress in your career and you don’t have that path, management is not the natural thing to look at…unless you actually want to stop what you are doing and become a manager…. Becoming a manager does not make you…tech lead. It makes you manager. It’s a hard piece of advice to give somebody if they’re in an organization that does not have a next title, a next promotion for that person where they stay an individual contributor…. You shouldn’t try to become a manager. You should try to move organizations. That’s hard advice to give. I’ve had to do that a couple times.” – John White + Paul recalls a conversation with his manager not long after the manager had been promoted into the position. - “There’s no comparison between the management going up a chain of command and the engineer going up a chain of command. It’s a completely different skillset altogether….” – Paul Nadeau + Paul tells us that as leaders progress to higher levels in an organization they take on more responsibility but also begin to manage a profit and loss center (or PNL). Rather than individual expense reports you’re looking at what the team is spending and what they are spending it on. + The next level up is leading an entire division and considering how to distribute funds within your budget for salary raises, bonuses, or other types of compensation. - Paul tells us that many leaders love to hand out promotions, but no one likes to fire people. + When evaluating a technical career, Paul likes to think about the following: - Am I having fun? - Am I a benefit to the company? - Where will I be a bigger benefit to the company…in my current role or in a management role? - If applicable, are customers happy with me in my role (tech support, professional services, etc.)? + “I think one of the big reasons why people leave companies is…whenever they say there’s no room for promotion; it doesn’t have anything to do with promotion into management. A lot of times they think that’s what it is. But it has to do with promotion of their brand, their career path. What are they doing, and how are they getting there? That’s what it has to do with.” – Paul Nadeau + Management is a lot like herding cats, and according to Paul, not everyone is going to have fun doing that job. + Paul has fun whiteboarding and providing technical solutions for his customers. This makes him happy. - We have to define what success is for ourselves and not rely on how other people define success. Some people in technology define success as the level of management they have achieved. - “Quite honestly, whenever somebody comes and says, ‘are you interested in management?’ Not really…because I can make a bigger impact here where I am now and I can go to club and make a lot of money getting there as a systems engineer…. In management…when you equate it all out, is it really as much fun? I don’t know. When you walk in and you go to dinner, nobody wants to sit with you because you’re the boss. Nobody comes to your table. Why not just be the fun individual contributor that’s the natural leader guy where everybody comes over to the table and you just kind of have fun doing what you do?” – Paul Nadeau * Nick says Paul’s comments seem to hint at the importance of working for the right leader if you take on a role as a first-time people manager. + Paul tells us it’s more than that. Managers have a ton of resources at their disposal, but their number 1 job is to protect the company above all else. + “A lot of people say…I’m here to protect the people. No, you’re here to protect the company number 1. That’s why the company promoted you. The second thing is to protect your people. If you’re protecting the company you’re naturally protecting the people. Because now you don’t have a toxic work environment. You don’t have any kind of discord. You don’t have any kind of rule breakers. All that’s taken care of because you’re protecting the company first.” – Paul Nadeau + One of a manager’s greatest resources is HR (Human Resources). - “They are there as an advocate to help you as a manager to work through problems and issues. That should be your best friend in the whole world.” – Paul Nadeau, on HR + Many leaders miss the opportunity to leverage HR as an advocate and helpful resource. One of the first things Paul did after becoming a leader was go make friends with his HR. He also highlights how communication with HR about more than just immediate problems can help (i.e., employees who are performing well that you want to retain). + If you’re giving pointers to someone who wants to go into management or continue down that path, Paul tells us it’s not just about taking a class. You need an increased level of involvement with other people. - Instead, do things to get involved in different user groups. - Take on different roles that you can have fun doing. - An increased overall level of involvement fosters strong relationships with different people. This is how to begin and continue building a professional network. - As layoffs happen in the industry and people reign to move to different companies, the relationships can be retained. - “These are still people. Humans first, right? That’s what it all boils down to…it’s still people dealing with people at the end of the day.” – Paul Nadeau
11:37 – Returning to Individual Contributor* At some point after working in leadership, Paul chose to return to being an individual contributor. What went into that decision? + “Actually, it’s harder to go backwards than it is to go forward. It’s harder to go from a management role into an individual contributor role.” – Paul Nadeau + From the time Paul was promoted to director of worldwide services to his return to individual contributor was a span of about 8 years. + Paul remembers a specific trip to Asia to spend time with a director under him and to attend to different organizational changes. It was 2 AM, and he received an unexpected phone call from a friend. Someone wanted Paul fired and wanted to take his job. - Paul reminds us that at this time things were running smoothly. The services organization was making money ($48 million in the black). Employee morale was in great standing, and attrition was low. - When he took over the services organization at this company after a massive restructuring years earlier, it was $18 million in the red, and the company was considering removing it completely. - “The politics side of it…I’ve never done well with. I’ve never really done well with that. It is inherent. It is something that happens…. Human beings…we just naturally get political about things…. We have opinions…sometimes a little jaded opinions on somethings…or a little strong opinions…. And when the politics started to come out, I was like, ‘you know what? I’m not even cut out for this.’ And the worse it got, the less tolerance I had for it….” – Paul Nadeau - Paul told his boss he wanted to move back to individual contributor again. Paul was ok with just being an individual contributor inside an organization he had built. He missed being in front of customers. - “It is fun. It is rewarding to help people with their career and help them develop leadership skills that they didn’t know that they had, to see things in people that they don’t even know that they had and kind of help them evolve. However, there’s also the other side of it, which is, I can’t take this being up 17 hours a day, getting 3 or 4 hours of sleep a night, and being on airplanes all the time. It’s just taking a toll…. Everything considered, I want to go back to an individual contributor role.” – Paul Nadeau - After talking through it together, Paul’s boss at the time was supportive of the move back to individual contributor. + Paul also spoke to a really good friend who had progressed from individual contributor to being a peer of his in management about making the change back to being an individual contributor. At first that friend thought it wasn’t a good idea. It would remove some elements of compensation that were present at the leadership level. - But, when the friend could see Paul was determined, he mentioned to Paul that there was an opening for a systems engineer. Paul made the move and took the role. - After moving into the individual contributor role, Paul said one thing he did not expect was to have to still sit at a dinner table by himself. - “It was so isolating. It was absolutely unbelievable. So, whenever they say it’s lonely at the top, it is. But it’s also lonely when you get back into the ranks…moving back in from management back into an individual contributor role. If I were to move into a different company where I didn’t know anybody or maybe just knew one or two people, it might have been a little easier. But moving up the ranks and back down the ranks was quite telling…. It was kind of surprising.” – Paul Nadeau * Remember, Paul had gone from member of a team to leading an entire division. What we’re talking about now is going the opposite direction. + Paul says he worked at his first two employers after being in the Navy for many years (over 17 years at the first company and about 8 at the second). It was all about loyalty. + But, does a company reciprocate the loyalty, or would it be better to move to a different company? + Even when trying to move to a new company after experience in that director role, Paul tells us the “resume damage” followed him. - Hiring managers were initially hesitant to hire Paul as an individual contributor. They thought Paul might tell them how to run their team or be targeting another director role. - After Paul had landed an individual contributor role, his manager or other leaders who knew about his management experience might ask him if he had ever experienced a specific situation. Listen to some of the specific situations Paul experienced when he was a leader. Would you know how to handle them? - “These are all things that they don’t teach you…. There’s no book that says…go to page 15 and this is what happens when this happens…. There’s a lot of these things that you just have to kind of learn under fire. Again, that HR advisor is the person you have to go to…. Moving into those roles a lot of times is really difficult. It will follow you. Then it becomes kind of a distant memory….” – Paul Nadeau, on situations one experiences as a manager - Paul says the transition would be equally difficult to go back from individual contributor to manager if enough time had passed since the last management experience. It’s not that someone would forget how to perform the role, but there is a perception shaped by amount of time not in the role one must combat. - The decision points for Paul when it comes to manager / individual contributor come down to passion and what he wants to do in life. * Many people we’ve spoken to who when back to individual contributor roles missed being close to the technology. + Paul tells us people in leadership (like leading a worldwide services organization) don’t have time for building a home lab. You start to feel like you’re getting behind. + Paul mentions it can be difficult to have your resume stand out when applying for a role as a manager or director because every organization has them. + If you’re an individual contributor in sales engineering, for example, the industry is a lot smaller than you think. Many people know each other. Paul shares the example of getting laid off last year and receiving multiple calls from his network very quickly after it happened. In this industry, our reputation precedes us. And this is also the case for leaders. + “If somebody were to call me and say, ‘hey, we want you in this management role….’ Sure, no problem. What’s the organization? Tell me about it. ‘It’s a well-oiled machine….’ Forget it. I don’t want it…. Anybody can just take a well-oiled machine…and maintain it.” – Paul Nadeau + Paul would rather lead an organization that is in disarray and needs fixing than a well-oiled machine. You are much more likely to get more leeway for fixing big problems from your boss than when things are working well. Rather than being given a strategy on which to execute from upper management, Paul would rather build the team and develop the plan to do it. + We should also remember interviews are for the job candidate to ask questions to interview the company (not just the other way around. This is especially important when applying for a management role. + “During an interview process, that’s as good as it’s going to get. Everybody has their best face on at that point. So, if it’s not working at that point, forget it. Just walk….” – Paul Nadeau + Ask upper-level leaders in interviews what they expect out of a leader. Paul says sometimes people cannot answer this question because they aren’t sure or haven’t really thought it through. This is the person who would be your boss. If they can’t tell you how you will be measured, that is a red flag! + “Are they really looking for a partner? Are they looking for somebody that’s going to help them…get through some of these issues and problems and build an organization that’s going to be world class and is going to be top performing? Or do they just want a placeholder? Do they just want somebody there because I have a req and that’s it?” – Paul Nadeau + Watch out for meaningless cliches from leaders that don’t really tell you as an individual contributor what you need to be doing.
23:44 – Specialty Decisions* Paul remained in the networking and telecommunications space after returning to individual contributor. Why did Paul choose to take on different specialties over time within these areas? People listening may be afraid to specialize. + All of the specializations Paul ended up focusing on came from someone telling him that he couldn’t do it or figure it out. + Take ATM (Asynchronous Transfer Mode), for example. It’s a technology used to connect the world together. People thought Paul could never figure it out. But he did anyway. + Gigabit ethernet came out right after the ATM wave. There was also telephony (Voice over IP / VOIP and other traditional telecommunications), and one of the companies where Paul worked helped customers in this area. - Paul found himself needing to learn about 66 Blocks. + “Every part of it, believe it or not, there was an overlap in it. But it boiled down to somebody said you can’t do that. And being the last of 6 kids, I got so tired of hearing that when I was growing up…. And that was a lot of the career, quite honestly, the hard headedness I guess of it and the challenge of it.” – Paul Nadeau + Paul learned about Checkpoint firewalls, and when Fortinet entered the scene, he started to learn that technology as well. + Looking back on the experience, Paul says the opportunities just dovetailed into one another. + “You’re sitting in a room, and they said, ‘hey, we need somebody to do this.’ And everybody looks around…. Yeah, I’ll do it. It’s new. I don’t know anything about it. It’s interesting. Let’s go. What could possibly go wrong? That’s my favorite saying in the world. What could possibly go wrong? …So let’s just go jump in. That’s been my entire career quite honestly…. Sometimes it doesn’t work out so well. Sometimes it works out great. It just kind of depends. Risk taking…as long as it’s a calculated risk, it’s fine. As long as you think it through, you’ll be totally fine with it.” – Paul Nadeau * Was learning something he didn’t know anything about the same as walking into an organization that is a complete mess and cleaning it up? + Yes! Paul says it’s the same thing. + Paul gives the example of leaving a telecommunications company to go and focus on NSX. He knew nothing about NSX at the time, but it had all the elements of his background (networking, security, etc.). Paul didn’t know virtualization, so he decided to build a lab to help himself learn what was missing at the level he needed to learn it (not at an expert level but at a level of competence for his role). + It was very similar when Paul moved to his role at Palo Alto Networks. They have an enormous portfolio of products, and Paul had to put in the time to learn the products at the deep level he needed to (i.e. getting his hands on it). + “If you’re looking to get into management or you’re looking to get promoted in management and you’re not looking for a mess or somebody that’s almost in tears when they interview you…then you’re not applying for the right job. You’ve gotta get out of your comfort zone. You really do. And I’m not saying go do crazy stuff, but you have to keep yourself uncomfortable in order to keep learning, to keep progressing.” – Paul Nadeau
29:15 – Nurturing Your Network and a Focus on Helping Others* Paul does a really good job of nurturing his extended professional network. How does he do it exactly? + Paul is a people person, referring to himself as not really introverted but not really extroverted. He likes to have face-to-face conversations with others over a meal, for coffee, etc. - COVID was difficult for Paul. + Paul isn’t afraid to reach out to people he has not yet met. He will introduce himself to people at industry events, share what he does, and just have a conversation. - “There’s a lot of things you can glean…if you ask somebody about themselves and just sit back and listen, man, you’ll learn so much out of it.” – Paul Nadeau - Paul tells us we can learn so much about new ways of thinking, progression paths in tech, etc. through conversations with others (much like we’ve showcased on the podcast). + It’s ok to reach out to people we haven’t talked to in several years and ask to catch up. Paul sees this as an opportunity to pick up where you previously left off. We tend to fall out of touch with others because of various life events. It just happens. + Paul is a true believer in helping others. He gives the example of the tech downturn / season of layoffs we’re seeing right now. It’s an opportunity to have a different kind of conversation with people impacted. - “If there’s a layoff, I call. And a lot of times that person…day 2 is like, ‘man, I haven’t talked to anybody in the last day. It’s like all of a sudden, I had the plague. Nobody wants to call me.’ It’s not contagious. The person got hit in a layoff. What can I do to legitimately help you? And I will go to my network…but first I need to find out from you – what do you want to do? Do you want to change career paths? Do you want to stay on a career path? …This is an opportunity for you to kind of branch out a little bit and look at it. And you can have really kind of good conversations with people that you wouldn’t have if they were still employed…. It’s a different conversation.” – Paul Nadeau - Once you understand what someone wants to do after being impacted by a layoff, you can then introduce them to someone in your network. Many times, that person will introduce them to someone else because they know about an opening, which creates further momentum. We should not be afraid of making an introduction for someone. - Paul tells us he does not like asking for help. - “But, at the end of the day, people like to help. That’s what they want to do…. You’re giving them a gift by saying, ‘hey, can you help me?’” – Paul Nadeau - If you ask someone to make an introduction for you, it empowers them to take action. - If people are not willing to make an introduction for you, it may be a sign of a bigger problem you have. + Nick says we’re highlighting the importance of telling people the kind of help we need and what we want to do next. - Paul tells a story from early in his career when a teammate of his was laid off. He did all kinds of things to try and help the person find their next opportunity, but what the person wanted was to take some time off before looking for a next role. Paul didn’t understand that when he first dove in to help and advises us to be helpful without being assertive. - Paul remembers getting calls after being laid off from people asking what he wanted to do. Some of them were from managers who had no openings at the time but wanted to have a conversation. - “It’s rewarding on both levels…. I know now what I can do to help them, and I know what part of my network I can introduce them to based on what they want to do next….” – Paul Nadeau - A next step for some people after a layoff may be starting their own business, for example. Paul knows people who became franchise owners after getting laid off from a tech job. * Paul mentioned making strong connections with co-workers as well as special interest groups. Which of these special interest groups has Paul frequented over the course of his career, and what would he encourage people earlier in their career to do? + There are many different groups that meet based on commonalities like technology, veterans or something else. You might hear about these groups on Facebook or LinkedIn, for example. + “If I look at a LinkedIn feed and somebody says, ‘hey we’re having a technology meeting…’ and you have somebody from 5 different companies…I know the companies because they’re in tech. I don’t know any of these people. I’m going. I’m definitely going. Because one, it puts me outside my comfort zone. Second of all, you have some of the most riveting conversations with people you don’t even know, but they’re in the same industry. And now all of a sudden you know them.” – Paul Nadeau + Paul says these types of conversations could result in… - Someone reaching out to you months later asking for help after a layoff – this enables the conversation about what they want to do and creates an opportunity to help - Someone letting you know they will be in your area – this creates an opportunity to get together + Listen to Paul tell the story of a dinner conversation that allowed him to help someone on a personal level based on previous experience. + “So, it’s not just about tech. It’s just about jobs. A lot of people look at it in the wrong respect, or they look at it like, ‘I need to do it because I need to get something out of it.’ And a lot of times you’re doing it because there’s a lot you can give. There’s a lot of insight you can…give out to help other people.” – Paul Nadeau + While having a professional network with strong connections can definitely help you should you lose your job, Paul tells us that’s not the way we should approach building our network. John calls it trying to put good vibes out into the universe. + Paul finds people who work in technology fascinating. It takes a special mindset to get into this industry, and there is a very cool commonality in being part of the industry. - Some people we meet we may only speak to once. Others we might speak with multiple times. - Paul tells the story of someone reaching out to him on LinkedIn, and it turned out the two of them were at a technology conference several years before then. - “It is a small world, small industry. It’s all about just getting out there and just who can you help. And then if you ever need help, hopefully it’s there for you.” – Paul Nadeau * We’re going to feel better when we’re able to help someone else, but you may never know all of the people you end up helping. + Paul recently learned about the impact of a conversation with someone that really helped that person after they lost their job. But Paul didn’t go into that conversation with an agenda. He was just having a good conversation. + “Good people know good people. That’s what it boils down to. So, your network, if you’re a good solid person, good engineer…chances are your network is good solid people. It kind of lays the groundwork for helping everybody out. I agree 100%. It’s all about who you can help.” – Paul Nadeau + This is a parallel to what we heard Don Jones mention in Episode 137 – Something to Offer, Something to Share with Don Jones (1/2) about managers not knowing if today was a good day. - This is very similar to when we help someone with a job search or career advice. We don’t know what the impact is / will be. The intention is to leave a positive trail behind us. + Paul says we need to be able to have confidence in what we do, who we help, how we conduct ourselves. + “Everything has been a learning experience. Everything has been interesting. Have there been bumps in the road? Yes, absolutely…a ton of bumps. But it’s like anything else. If you’re on a cross-country flight in an airplane, you’re going to hit bumps. There’s going to be turbulence. You just fly through it. And then whenever you get there, you feel a little bit better about it, right? Because you made it through the turbulence…. What kind of impact am I going to make on humanity…at the end of the day? That’s the big goal right there…. How are people going to remember you? Are they going to remember you as the helpful person who just went out of their way to help people out? …It doesn’t have anything to do with money. It doesn’t have anything to do with prestige or being in a public eye. That just has to do with…being a good, solid human being. If you live your life like that…you really don’t have much to worry about.” – Paul Nadeau * Connect with Paul on LinkedIn if you would like to follow up on this episode. Any subject goes.
Mentioned in the Outro* As technical people we sometimes jump into solutioning too quickly. When it comes to speaking to those who have been laid off, we need to ask more questions and perform some discovery. What do they want to do next? + This could be an opportunity to brainstorm with that person and point out a role they could be qualified for but didn’t realize it. + What if someone doesn’t know what they want to do next? Outside of encouraging the person to give it some thought, you could suggest they read What to Do Next by Jeff Henderson, which was recommended by former guest Daniel Lemire. * Paul said the job of a people leader is to protect the company first and foremost. By doing that they will protect their people. + This adds another element to the advice Richard Russell shared in Episode 319 – Upward Focus: Manage, Coach, and Create Value in the Space that Fits You with Richard Russell (2/2). Richard said the job of a manager or leader is not to serve their team but to provide value to the business, the organization, and their leadership. Serving the team is the HOW of doing the job and not the what. * Do you know someone else who has suffered from resume damage? Send us an e-mail to recommend new guests. We would love to feature their story on the show.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Imagine transitioning from individual contributor at a company to managing an organization of 155 people. That’s quite the promotion. How would you approach that kind of change?
Before you get too anxious about what’s coming, Paul Nadeau, our guest this week in episode 344, has two pieces of advice: stay calm, and don’t panic.
Paul’s career began as a Radioman in the Navy where he focused on telecommunications, but he later pursued law enforcement. You’ll hear firsthand about the experiences that cemented this mantra of remaining calm in Paul’s mind and follow him through leadership training in the Navy. Listen in to hear how a specific mix of classroom instruction and practical experience forged a leadership philosophy that is widely applicable both in the military and in the corporate world.
Whether you are an individual contributor or a people leader today, you’ll learn how to identify the traits of natural leaders and understand some of the real challenges of stepping into a management role.
Original Recording Date: 08-28-2025
Topics – Meet Paul Nadeau, Birth of a Specialty, The Importance of Staying Calm, Leadership Training and Gaining Experience, Assessing Leadership Talent2:28 – Meet Paul Nadeau* Paul Nadeau is a Solutions Consultant at Palo Alto Networks. * Paul’s early career began with joining the Navy, but his decision to join starts even earlier. + Paul grew up in the Texas Hill Country (areas around Fredericksburg and Kerrville) and attended a private school for most of his young life. + Though the academics were great at private school, Paul talked his father into letting him attend public school for his junior year of high school. + At the public high school, Paul started to get into trouble. At one point his father had a very frank conversation with him. + “You need to do something with your life.” – advice from Paul Nadeau’s father + Paul’s father was a Marine who served in World War II and was awarded a Purple Heart for his service. He suggested Paul consider joining the military. Paul’s father wanted him to have some type of trade to fall back on after military service. + While the Air Force did seem appealing, Paul ended up joining the Navy in 1988. After boot camp, Paul was sent to all kinds of schools before serving on the USS America in Norfolk, Virginia in 1989. + Paul was serving when Desert Storm broke out in 1990. + After serving in the Navy, Paul decided to go into law enforcement (something he had always wanted to do). Though his work in the Navy focused on telecommunications / satellite communications, Paul didn’t want to keep doing it after serving in the Navy. He chose to attend the police academy instead. + Though Paul enjoyed being a police officer, the pay did not support starting a family. + Paul re-enlisted in the Navy in 1995 to once again focus on telecommunications, trading some of the re-enlistment bonus money to use for school. - Paul says he did Cisco training, Novell training, Unix administration, and even Windows administration training. He and co-workers were pioneering running these systems across satellite links (from ship to shore). + When Paul went into the Navy, they were looking for people who had clean backgrounds. He was able to obtain a security clearance after joining.
7:07 – Birth of a Specialty* How did Paul end up in telecommunications after joining the Navy? + At age 17 when he first enlisted in the Navy, Paul wanted to do something in the medical field. He was told no. + Paul’s second choice for occupation was to be a cop. At the time, you had to have at least 4 years of service to do this. + The there was an opening for a job (or ratings as they are called) called Radioman focused on telecommunications. Though the nuclear program was an option at the time, Paul wanted nothing to do with it. + “Whenever we say option, it was pretty much like, ‘this is what you’re going to do. We’re going to send you over here, and you’re going to learn this….’ That’s what got me into telecommunications as a whole and into networking. Yeah, it was a good step.” – Paul Nadeau + The job placements were generally based on ASVAB scores, and it was Paul’s high scores that presented the opportunities for different fields. - Maybe we should have a military recruiter on the show at some point to better understand how this process works? + What drew Paul to law enforcement after getting exposure to telecommunications in the Navy? - When Paul was a kid (even as young as kindergarten), his dad (a disabled veteran) would walk him to school each day. Every day he would ask Paul what he wanted to do when he grew up. Paul always said he wanted to be a cop. * Paul isn’t 100% sure why he wanted to be a cop from such a young age, but there was a state trooper who lived in the same neighborhood. Paul loved his car and thought he was one of the nicest guys in the world. - Six-year-old Paul wanted a career in law enforcement. * John asks about access to schools in the military. The training seems relevant to a field even for the person who has not yet worked in that field. + Paul says his training for Cisco and Novell, for example, was delivered by a civilian instructor who visited the Naval base. It was civilian training paid for and sponsored by the Navy. + After Desert Storm while still stationed in Norfolk, Paul wanted to attend Old Dominion University. - He remembers having to attend in uniform, but the cost of attending was covered by the Navy. Paul wanted to take advantage of the opportunity to get more education. + There was also a Radioman “A” school Paul attended and some “Sea” schools. He learned satellite communication and cryptology, for example. The training courses for Cisco and Novell were mixed into the same curriculum as these Naval schools. + The schools you were eligible to attend were based on your job. Paul tells us the Radioman rating from years ago has changed to IT (according to Naval classification / rating). - He remembers studying morse code and HF (high frequency) communications (ship-to-ship, ship-to-shore, communication over satellite, etc.). - Radio was considered a secure space, and the personnel focused in these areas got exposed to all of the new technologies. Paul liked being able to tinker with it. - In addition to attending school, working on a ship 7 days per week is on-the-job training. Paul worked 7 days per week for 7 months during Desert Storm.
14:34 – The Importance of Staying Calm* How did military training translate to intense / hostile situations in law enforcement? + Paul was assigned to an AMCC (American Mobile Communications Center) unit for Desert Storm, and as a result he went through a lot of training (hand-to-hand combat, logistics training, and other things one might use when forward deployed). + “The number one thing that you actually learn, believe it or not, is the key to success – stay calm. Don’t panic…. Panic is the number one thing that will get you in trouble every time…. It’s kind of been the guiding light in life…that one little bit of information.” – Paul Nadeau - Paul is a private pilot and understands the importance of staying calm while he is in the cockpit of a plane. This translates to so many areas of life (interactions with kids, situations at work, etc.). + Did Paul do anything specific to help himself stay calm? What would he tell people who are not good at this? - Listen to Paul’s story of being a field training officer during his time in law enforcement. - The instinct to stay calm sort of came naturally to him. - When situations begin to escalate, take a second to think about them rationally. It won’t do us any good to let our mind run away with a situation and have it take control of us. - Many people consistently fight anxiety. Paul has been fortunate enough not to struggle with it. + Was what Paul describes (staying calm even in difficult situations) a result of basic training and becoming a little bit desensitized? - Paul tells the story of basic training and getting exposed to tear gas. - “You can panic and pass out because you will. You will stop breathing and just hit the ground. Or you can stay calm and regulate your breathing and kind of center yourself. And when you do, you can…overcome the problem or issue. That was my initial wow. This is a really good thing for life in general…. Whenever you make it out, yeah, you’re coughing. You’re hacking. Your eyes are burning…. But you were still able to actually perform. You were actually able to breathe. You were actually able to say a sentence…. They want you to have that levity to do that….” – Paul Nadeau, on staying calm in basic training - Paul describes a similar type of training for firefighters. You’re in a giant room of 2-3-foot deep water, and someone dumps gasoline on the water to start a fire with it. Then it’s the firefighter’s job to put out the fire. * Despite instructors demonstrating how to put out the fire, people will panic when put in the situation. - Some of this may go back to the training Paul received on how to perform under pressure and stress. + Maybe we can practice responding calmly to high stress situations? - Paul shares the story of being a newly trained police officer. After 2 weeks of training, he was sent out on patrol by the sheriff. The first thing he had to respond to was the scene of a vehicle accident (a head on collision). - Paul remembers how quiet the accident scene was. He could hear the cracking of metal and steam from car engines. - “All of a sudden you hit that moment of levity. Don’t panic. You can’t panic with this. You got called here to do a job. You’re going to be the only person here that can actually do that job…. You have to kind of be that leader so to speak, that calm amongst the storm, and just do your job. And it’s difficult….” – Paul Nadeau, on being the first to the scene of an accident - Even if you are calm during difficult situations like the one above, Paul tells us you have to take time to decompress afterward and work through the situation mentally. - “I felt like maybe there was maybe something wrong because I wasn’t breaking down…I hadn’t lost my cool with it…. I was functioning perfectly fine. Did it affect me? Absolutely. There’s no doubt about it…. If you say that it didn’t affect you, you’re not human…. There’s still that human emotion side of it. But it wasn’t to an incapacitating level.” – Paul Nadeau + John has heard a panic or anxiety response is a lot like a glass of water. If the glass is close to full, it doesn’t take much to overflow. But if you intentionally keep the water level low, it takes a lot more to cause spills. - Paul has seen different people handle stressful situations differently over time. It’s not right or wrong but the way they handle it. + Does Paul not have an adrenaline response? - A pilot needs a healthy dose of fear when flying a plane. - Paul says it’s more of a primal fear response that we’re talking about. Panic in the early days of civilization, for example, might mean you get eaten.
24:26 – Leadership Training and Gaining Experience* Where does leadership play into the story? + In the military, ranks of E-1 through E-3 are usually entry level. Being promoted to the rank of E-4 is normally when leadership responsibility comes into play. + In the area of radio, there were 2 subdivisions. E-4 was more of a leadership role in the message center because it staffed so many more people than the tech control side. Usually there is an E-5 and an E-6 to look over operations as well. - Tech control – setting up circuits - Message center – where all messages came in (could result of hundreds of messages per minute) + Paul says you get leadership training, but it is mixed with a lot of real-world, practical experience. In Paul’s first 4 years, he made it to E-6. - In the military, things are pretty black and white without a lot of ambiguity. - There are situations both in the military and in the civilian world in which leaders are expected to perform conflict resolution. + Listen to the lesson a senior leader in the military taught Paul after his leadership training about the difference between productivity and activity. - “We have to be productive, not just active. So, it doesn’t matter if you go have 15 conversations with customers. Did you have a meaningful interaction with them? That’s more important. The same thing when you’re in leadership…if you’re not having meaningful interactions or conversations with the people that work for you or the people that you work for, then you’re missing out. You’re really missing out…. There’s a lot of things you can talk about, but it has to be meaningful. It has to be directional. That’s what I learned…and it wasn’t actually in the training itself. It was actually from a chief warrant officer.” – Paul Nadeau + The activity vs. productivity idea applies to any technology job. There’s always another ticket to work on. - “Each one of those jobs…yeah, you can do a lot of activity. And you can be…the person that is just burned out at the end of the day…. If you sit back and look at it…, am I truly productive? Have I actually done something that has been great for the customer, good for the company, good for me…?” – Paul Nadeau - If we try to get more productive instead of more active, it could reduce our workload. Everyone around you will value this shift. Paul tells us it has a lot to do with meaningful interactions with others. * Did the leadership training and the lesson Paul learned from the chief warrant officer make him want to pursue more of a leadership role in the future? + “The training itself was fantastic. What I learned was how much I didn’t know. And I learned what level I didn’t know it at.” – Paul Nadeau + Paul says anyone can take a group of people and manage them (i.e. make sure the tasks get completed). That’s management. True leaders can take groups of disparate people together and lead the team. - When Paul was in the military, he would ask other leaders how he could help the people under him evolve in such a score-based environment. + “To me, what was exciting about it was the ability to actually be able to connect and actually be able to help people with their career…. Nothing really dealt with your personal ability, your brand. You didn’t really have a brand, and then you do whenever you get out. And all of a sudden you don’t really know what this brand is because in the military you’re a collective. In the civilian world it’s more of an individual that works in a collective environment…. Taking that and fostering it was a really interesting evolution.” – Paul Nadeau + Paul’s first people management opportunity in the corporate world was at a telecommunications company where he worked as an individual contributor. - Paul’s neighbor worked for a power company and wanted someone to come run their operations. He had known Paul for a few years and knew he had military experience. - The neighbor made Paul an offer, and he decided to resign from his employer. But the story took an unexpected twist when Paul received a call from the CEO of the telecommunications company who would not accept his resignation without a face-to-face conversation. - The CEO told Paul they were about to flatten the company’s management structure the following week and made him an offer to be director of worldwide services. Paul had a good reputation, and the military leadership training made him a great fit for the role in the CEO’s eyes. - “I thought about it all the way home…. I’ve been here. I know these people. I know where the problems are and where the issues are…. One of the things that I didn’t anticipate – I was a colleague. I went from colleague to suddenly I was in charge…. And there’s a big difference whenever you do that.” – Paul Nadeau, on taking a new role within his current company - Paul says taking on the leadership role had a number of trials and tribulations he never expected. But it was a lot of fun and very rewarding. * Paul was an ATM Engineer and then had to lead teams of ATM engineers. ATM stands for Asynchronous Transfer Mode in the telecommunications world. + “I went from managing myself to managing 155 people in 3 different geos around the world.” – Paul Nadeau + Paul had to manage a $35 million profit and loss center that was in disarray, his first task was to systematically understand the problems and prioritize them appropriately. + It was a large, complex organization. Paul needed front-line managers underneath him, and it was important to take time to train and mentor those managers (some of which were first-time managers). - “Not only am I now managing North America along with the rest of the world…now I have to train somebody on how to be a leader. Now you kind of have extra hours built into your day…. You can’t just do your job and then go home….” – Paul Nadeau, on supporting first-time managers + An engineer who once worked for Paul went on to become the COO of a company in Canada. This person thanked Paul for everything he had learned about leadership while working on that team. - Paul cites military leadership principles as providing the foundation of what he needed to succeed. - “Everybody thinks the military is like Full Metal Jacket…. That’s not it at all.” – Paul Nadeau - In his role now at Palo Alto Networks, Paul is part of the Vets Net program. The skills of military veterans are widely applicable outside the military. * Was there a specific NCO leadership training track or course that was especially useful to Paul, or was learning on the job from experienced leaders more useful? + Paul says it was really a mix of both. + There are advancement cycles in the military during which people go up for promotion. This involves taking tests and getting recommendation letters as well as usually going before a board of review. People either get promoted or are classified as PNA (Pass, Not Advanced), but there are only so many openings. + When you get promoted up to E-5 or E-6, this is middle management in the military. Once you are promoted to either E-6 or E-7, Paul says there is a structured, required class. - One part of the class is instructor-led training. - The second class is for reinforcement and absorbing knowledge from other leaders. - Paul tells us this is a really good combination of classroom training and hands-on experiential training. - Also, advancing from E-1 to E-6 in the same area taught Paul a lot about promotion from within, and he was able to apply this to roles outside the military.
38:48 – Assessing Leadership Talent* Paul spoke about hiring new leaders and knowing he would incur an overhead of mentoring a new leader, which sounds like an idea built into the training he received and experienced in the military. + “One of the things that’s really amazing to me, and I see this all the time…. People think that because you’re a great engineer, you’re going to be a great engineering leader. They think because you’re a great salesperson you’re going to be a great sales leader…. It’s a completely different skill set altogether. Just because you can sell like there’s no tomorrow doesn’t mean that you’re going to be a great leader….” – Paul Nadeau + Paul talks about another type of person that is an individual contributor who may be struggling but has a number of really good skills we might consider leadership skills – being structured, being helpful, wanting to help people. - But even if someone has these skills, would they want to be a people leader? They might not. Paul mentions cases where he tried to persuade people to pursue leadership, and they refused because they were happy in their role. + There’s another group of people who want to be in management and continue to try for and chase it (like a dog chasing a car). But once they finally get the management role, they don’t really know what to do with it. - Once this leader begins to struggle, morale on their team goes down. - Sometimes higher-level leaders aren’t training their front line managers or other leaders underneath them. There are multiple negative downstream impacts of this. - Paul thinks being a leader should be embedded within us. Even if it isn’t, people can learn how to do it. - It can be difficult to find someone who has the skill set of being both technical and being a leader, but when you see it, you know that person needs to be in leadership. * If Paul recognized leadership traits in someone, what would he say to the person to encourage them to pursue leadership? + Paul would start by asking whether the person had ever thought about leadership. + If the person did not think they had the skill set, Paul would politely correct them and tell them why they have the skills to do it. It could be transparency, conflict resolution, not avoiding problems, etc. + “The second part of it is…do you know what you’re getting into?” – Paul Nadeau, encouraging someone to become a leader - People might not realize managing upward is something required when you’re a people leader. You have to pick your battles, decide what to filter, and provide feedback to your boss (which might mean voicing concerns about an idea being silly). - Many times, people not in leadership don’t know they are qualified for it. + “You have that person in every organization that when they leave, it’s worse than if their leader left. If that first-level manager left, a lot of times that’s less of an impact than the natural born leaders that you have that are individual contributors on the team. Because that’s who actually rallies the team. That’s who actually gets people to do things.” – Paul Nadeau, on leadership qualities in individual contributors + Overall, it’s a fun conversation to have with someone according to Paul, but does the person really know what they are getting into by pursuing people management?
Mentioned in the Outro* Paul’s move into law enforcement after being trained in telecommunications in the Navy might on the surface look like an odd choice, but he’s modeling going to try something new for the rest of us. + Paul wanted to be in law enforcement from a young age. It was his ambition. + Past guests like Daniel Paluszek and Brad Christian wanted to try working for startups and decided to make job changes, for example. + The decision to go and try something nets us experience we can take to our next role, whatever it may be. We’re confident Paul’s time in law enforcement helped him in his next roles back in the Navy and in civilian life. * Many technology companies are looking for veterans who have transferrable skills from military service to apply in our industry. * For more stories of veterans whose technology careers began in the military, check out our veteran tag and list of episodes. * The comment about the impact of individual contributors leaving a team made Nick think a lot about our conversations on the role of tech lead or team lead. For discussions with guests where we focused on these roles and reasons for taking them, check out these tags on our site: + Team Lead + Tech Lead * Paul’s move to director of worldwide services and the need to focus and prioritize for a large organization reminded us of the conversation about manager priorities from Episode 328 – A Manager’s Preoccupation: 1-1 Meetings and Focused Prioritization with Joseph Griffiths (2/2)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YouTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Remember all the times someone took a moment to help you in your career? This act of support is what Jason Gass calls a “lost art” in the tech industry.
Jason returns this week in episode 343 to share the conclusion of his layoff story. Listen closely to understand why he’s so committed to helping other people in the industry as a result of going through this process and eventually finding closure.
You’ll hear suggestions and practical examples for how to keep in touch with colleagues after a layoff, and we emphasize the importance of staying on top of the job marketplace in terms of trends and skill sets. Jason will also share how managing finances carefully can provide peace of mind when it comes to unexpected job loss.
Even if you haven’t been impacted by a layoff, stay tuned for practical ways of supporting people who have, and learn why keeping a pulse on the job marketplace can boost your career at your current company.
Original Recording Date: 08-07-2025
If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Jason, check out Episode 342 – Planting Seeds: Networking and Maneuvering Unexpected Job Loss with Jason Gass (1/2)
Topics – The Lost Art of Supporting Others, Marketplace Analysis and Skills Gaps, Things That Brought Peace of Mind, Reaching Closure and Openness to New Opportunities, Parting Thoughts and Final Lessons Learned* Jason Gass joined us as a guest host for a series of episodes reviewing the book Finish by Jon Acuff and is back this week as a guest. + The book series on Finish was published in episodes 272 – 275, and you can listen back to them using the link above.
3:16 – The Lost Art of Supporting Others* What other types of support does Jason wish he had been given by others that he did not receive, and how can listeners better support others in a layoff situation? + Jason says when people announce being laid off on LinkedIn, for example, there are a lot of responses from people. Many times, people say something like “I’m so sorry. Let me know how I can help. I’ll keep an ear out for you.” + “They mean well. They absolutely do, but then shortly afterwards, they forget. They have their own lives. They are working their own jobs. They forget that you are on the market looking.” – Jason Gass + Jason tells us there were a handful of friends and colleagues who were on the lookout for opportunities on his behalf. + At the same tech event where Jason met a hiring manager that we discussed in part 1, Jason reconnected with personnel from a partner he had worked with in the past. By the next week, Jason had lunch with a hiring manager from that partner. Though there were no openings at the time, Jason highlights the unique role of partners that work with multiple vendors and customers. - As a result of being in this position, personnel at a partner may know about open roles across many companies. In fact, Jason got a call about a possible job opportunity that originated from a partner contact while he was on vacation. + Jason tells us there is a lost art in our industry. All of us started at a junior level and worked our way up to more senior roles, but it took help from others to get there. - “I can map it out and pinpoint each and every person that helped me along the way in the career…. They saw something in me. They helped me. They mentored me…just taking a moment and helping out. I try to do the same thing now… We all are in the same boat. We’re all going in the same direction. Things change. Things happen. People are going to go through this, and it’s a tough situation. My thought is that…I had help getting where I’m at, especially though this transition. I should give it back to the next person that’s going through it.” – Jason Gass - Jason has been known to reach out to people about job openings in a specific area if he knows about something and feels the person is a strong candidate. * Is there a way to stay in touch with colleagues who stayed without it being weird and awkward? + Some people think co-workers are not friends, but Jason disagrees with this. He’s found there will be a handful of work colleagues with which we stay in contact after leaving a company, but it depends on the relationship we had with that person while we were at a company. - Would certain co-workers be people you would want to hang out with outside of work? This is a good screen for those you would want to keep in touch with long-term. + Jason credits a former manager who created a team atmosphere where co-workers became friends. + Now and then, Jason will text colleagues who remain at his former employers to see how they are doing. Those people always want to know how Jason is doing as well. + “The market will shift. People will end up at different companies. You might start collaborating with each other.” – Jason Gass + Jason shares a story of reaching out to a former colleague to discuss an opportunity for them to collaborate even though they work at different companies. + Someone leaving a company doesn’t end the friendships made while at that company. + John says there is probably a limit to the number of people we can effectively keep in touch with, and we are also at the mercy on platforms like LinkedIn of the algorithm. + “You don’t get to see every first-person contact and their job updates. You just don’t. Somebody else is making that decision for you. So, you have to curate your feed and maybe be a little bit more active, too.” – John White * Jason shares a story of leaving a company to pursue a role in sales engineering. He kept in touch with a core group of colleagues and even had them over for dinner recently. + “A lot of them have moved on to other companies in the area. Once again, we built that synergy up when we were there. We have an ongoing group text message, and every 6 months, we try to get together….” – Jason Gass, on keeping in touch with former colleagues + Jason says we might not be able to stay in touch with 10,000 people at a company, but we can stay in touch with 5. We’re looking for quality over quantity. + Jason was on a webinar recently and noticed a familiar name. It looked like the name of a good friend from a former job. After exchanging some text messages, Jason found out it was the friend he thought, and they went to lunch not long after that to catch up on how each was doing. + When we lose contact with a colleague for a while, it’s not something that happens maliciously. It just happens. Factors like having a family, relocating, and working at another company have an impact. + Nick reiterates the impetus is on us to make the time to do things like this. We often allow the tasks of the day or week to prevent us from it.
10:14 – Marketplace Analysis and Skills Gaps* As Jason looked for a new role, what kinds of skills gaps did he notice, and did he try to fill any of those during his job search process? + Jason says he did spot some gaps. We tend to get comfortable working with a specific focus in a specific space and lose sight of what is happening in the marketplace. + Some of the most desired skills from employers according to Jason were AI and containers / Kubernetes. - “This is a whole other discussion, but what I’ve seen is that AI is going to help companies adopt containers.” – Jason Gass - When cloud became popular years ago, you saw use of the term everywhere, and we wondered if it would stick. Jason says AI is in that same category today. - After going through a number of job descriptions during his search, Jason started to notice specific skill sets being repeated. He ended up making a list of those on his whiteboard to either begin pursuing immediately or once he landed a new role. - “Two things happened. One, it might apply to my current role. It might help me move into the next role or product set or a promotion. Two, it helps me stay relevant in the marketplace for the future.” – Jason Gass, sharing a perspective on skill sets repeated in job applications * Was Jason open to pursuing other types of roles as part of his search, or did he focus only on sales engineering since that’s what he had been doing? + Jason talked to some people about becoming a sales rep and even took some interviews for this type of role. It’s something he has thought about for a while, and it could be a future career avenue. - “It was something totally different. It also meant that I was going to be looking for some mentorship…. There’s going to be some aspects that I haven’t done yet.” – Jason Gass, on considering roles as a sales rep / salesperson + Jason also considered roles outside of the tech industry. With Jason’s love for cooking and barbeque, he thought about doing sales in the barbeque industry. - Jason did reach out to some contacts about pursuing this route, but he would have been forced to relocate to take this kind of role (which was not an option). - As part of this exercise, Jason found out about some expansion projects happening in his area related to this industry and asked to get connected with the local folks. This allows time to build network connections with local representatives well before Jason would want to make a move. - “Can you introduce me to the local folk, the local people, so I can start building up those relationships? So…when I’m ready to maybe transition out of tech, I’ve already made, once again, really good networking connections.” – Jason Gass
13:44 – Things That Brought Peace of Mind* In addition to building strong network connections, what were some of the other things Jason did in advance of the layoff that gave him peace of mind? + Jason and his wife have consistently reduced their debt as much as possible since getting married. + “The hardest part, I think, when someone gets laid off is…how am I going to pay the bills?” – Jason Gass + Jason and his wife had a 6-month emergency fund. - For most people, the largest bill is a mortgage or rent followed by car payments and other expenses like utilities, food, etc. + Jason has been working toward paying off his house. - Many people are totally against paying off your house early, and Jason understands this (i.e. some other investment could yield a higher return than paying off the house early). - In 2008 during the financial crisis, Jason lived in Florida, which was one of the hardest hit areas. He saw many people lose their homes. - “I tell people that gives me options. It lowers my risk because if I got laid off again and my house is paid off, so what? I have a large enough emergency fund to keep the lights on, food on the table, the bills paid…. I don’t have car payments. I don’t have a massive mortgage to pay anymore. It gives me options where I can take a different role in a different industry at less salary, or I can take a risk and change into a sales rep job….” – Jason Gass, on paying off the house + Jason says he and his wife also looked at expenses when they sensed layoffs might be coming. - They started by looking at which expenses they could cut which would not really impact them. - They cut back on streaming services. Jason was spending his time looking for a new job, studying / reading, and attending network events…not watching television. - One other example was gym membership. A new gym opened close to home, and Jason and his wife switched their membership to the new gym to save a significant amount of money. - Jason tells us he and his wife ate out a lot due to time constraints with both of them working, but he started cooking more often because he was home during the job search. - “That worked out really well because you still need to find avenues to break away. You can’t apply for a job 8 hours a day. You literally run out of jobs. So, you still need avenues. I love to cook anyways, so we just went back to doing what I always loved. But it still saved a few bucks.” – Jason Gass + Remember the vacation Jason mentioned earlier? - The vacation was for Jason and his wife’s wedding anniversary, and the tickets had already been purchased and were nonrefundable. - Was it irresponsible to go on vacation after being laid off? Jason struggled with this a little bit. - Jason and his wife decided to go ahead and take the trip, but they switched their hotel away from Disneyland property to minimize costs. - Taking that short trip allowed some decompression time, and as Jason mentioned, he received a call while on his vacation and had an interview the very next week. - John highlights that there were some sunk costs in this scenario, and Jason adjusted what he could to reduce the cost. - When it comes to an emergency fund, we can always wish we had more. John reminds us that having something is better than nothing. We should factor in debts that need to be paid off like our mortgage / rent, auto loans, and anything else into the calculations of monthly expenses which need to be covered by an emergency fund. If you have 6 months of money, for example, you want it to be 6 months of covering everything. * Jason says when he did get laid off, he and his wife were financially prepared. While this did bring some relief, being laid off is still a “gut punch.” + “Let’s face it. The interviewing process is miserable…. You could spend weeks. Some of these places I interviewed with took 6 weeks, 8 weeks….” – Jason Gass + With so many people to speak with during an interview process (a recruiter, a hiring manager, possibly a panel of people, etc.), it takes more time than people might think. Jason says he applied for some jobs on LinkedIn and got a rejection message 6 months later. + The peace of mind from having his finances in order allowed Jason to focus on the job search process. + Jason’s wife was also still working, so that helped. He also did some consulting work to bring in extra money.
20:38 – Reaching Closure and Openness to New Opportunities* How do you know when you’ve reached closure after going through a situation like a layoff? + The first couple of weeks are difficult. Jason says you go through depression, disappointment, and anger. + “I thought I was really prepared…. Then like I said, a few days later it kind of came crashing back on me.” – Jason Gass + Jason thinks closure came when he got a job offer. But there’s more. - “I was so diligent at finding my next job. I had that pipeline. I had those job interviews happening. When I knew I was interviewing constantly…I knew something would pop. I knew…I would land something. I would get an offer.” – Jason Gass - Knowing he had so many activities like interviews lined up helped him forget about what happened to start this entire process. - “And in the end, it was a relief. I wasn’t 100% happy where I was at, so this kind of forced me into another direction…. It pushed me to the next level. It really got me out of my comfort zone. The hardest part was all the new technology that I found that I wasn’t staying on top of.” – Jason Gass + From a lessons learned standpoint, Jason tells us he still needs to focus on all the things he wrote on his whiteboard (the skill sets). Many of those skills apply to his current role, and focusing on them will keep him valuable in the marketplace. - Nick refers to this as the double check mark. + What’s Jason’s take on continually taking interviews when we already have a job? - Jason says this is a double-edged sword. Interviewing for too many jobs is unsustainable. - “This is where your networking comes into play. You’re not going to find your next job, I don’t think, by just going randomly on some company website and filling out a form. It’s who you know.” – Jason Gass - As we network with others, we will hear about openings, and people may even ask us if we’re interested in a role. When someone seeks you out about an open role, even if you are happy where you are now, it’s worth having a conversation. - “Maybe it’s a great opportunity that you didn’t know about, and it might move you outside your comfort zone into the next level, or…what I learned through this whole process is that you make a great connection. And maybe it’s not the right time right now, but who knows what 6, 8, 12 months down the road…something might happen. You might end up getting laid off….‘Hey, I remember us talking about that position. It wasn’t the right time. I’m now looking. Do you have anything open? Have you heard anything?’” – Jason Gass, on considering new opportunities - Jason stresses the importance of knowing our worth in the job marketplace and staying on top of the skill sets in demand. Assuming you do this, you can analyze whether you are happy in your current role or if it’s time to look for opportunities elsewhere. - John says we should consider the opinions of others in those relationships we’ve nurtured and be willing to have a discussion if someone thinks we would be a good fit for a job. - “You should be always open for a phone call. I think it’s worth listening to someone to hear what they have to say. And if they thought enough of you and think…you would be a good fit, I think that’s very valuable. Because they obviously have a good, high opinion of you.” – Jason Gass - John says one way of keeping our eye on the marketplace is looking at these job descriptions to see the skill sets in demand and the compensation range (where it’s listed) to help us make decisions. We can also look at sites like Glassdoor to get an idea of industry compensation. - Jason tells us keeping an eye on the marketplace is relevant to our current role and can help in conversations with our manager. If we see specific skill sets in the marketplace and work to get them, perhaps this could result in higher pay or the opportunity to move into a different role. - “Just because you know what the market is on the outside and the skill sets they are looking for doesn’t mean you can’t take it internally and have a candid conversation and see if you can better yourself within the company.” – Jason Gass
26:00 – Parting Thoughts and Final Lessons Learned* What are some of the final lessons learned or things Jason wishes he had done differently that we did not discuss? + One thing Jason highlighted is taking more time for the situation to land emotionally up front. John suggests giving ourselves a lot of space if we’re going through something like this for emotional reactions. - Jason says this is important for when we hear others have been laid off. Be conscious of this same thing before reaching out to people who have been impacted by a layoff. It might be best to wait a few days before contacting them. - Jason was glad he hit the ground running after being laid off, but he didn’t even take the weekend to pause. He spent it polishing his resume. - “I just went 150% into it, and for what? I could have really taken 3, 4, 5 days and allowed it to sink in.” – Jason Gass - Jason says exercise or some form of release is really important as you work through the emotions of this type of scenario to prevent taking out frustrations on others. Jason doesn’t feel like he took the time to do this in the beginning because of the fast start. + Other things Jason would have done differently include: - Jason realized after being laid off that he had not saved e-mail addresses and phone numbers of colleagues. He had to find this information by contacting people on LinkedIn in some cases, for example. - Part of staying up to date and keeping a pulse on the marketplace is keeping valuable certifications current. That means seeking new certifications that are valuable or renewing those that continue to be valuable. John mentions technology vendors often allow their employees to take certification exams for free (something to keep in mind if you work for one). - Jason keeps his own subscriptions to training platforms like A Cloud Guru (now part of Pluralsight) and KodeKloud. He recently invested in training through Coursera. - “Always keep learning. Always try to better yourself. And you don’t have to go out and get 20-30 certifications a year, but you can go out and knock out 1 or 2 a year. That’s more than feasible with all of our schedules. We can take one here or there.” – Jason Gass - John says this is about career resilience. - “This is something that I need to do for my personal resilience. You get paid for work, but you don’t get paid for career. And you’re career planning when you do that.” – John White - Jason says we can turn our learning into content we can post online. If you are studying for a certification, you can take the content and post it online to share what you learned that day. Consistently posting content keeps you in the algorithm so that you continue to pop up in people’s feeds. Someone may see content you’ve posted and think of you for a job opening. * If you want to follow up on this discussion with Jason, reach out to him on LinkedIn.
Mentioned in the Outro* In this week’s discussion, we spoke to Jason about the types of roles he was considering. This was not something he only thought about once the layoff happened. We need to consider the types of roles we might like to do as part of overall career planning. + Check out the Must Have List from our friends Liz Bronson and Kat Troyer at RealJobTalk to help think through this. * Check out Episode 299 – Chronic Stress: Connecting the Dots between Layoffs and Burnout with Cait Donovan in which Cait highlights getting a handle on your expenses as a first step after being laid off to provide a sense of control. * Here’s a great book recommendation from former guest Daniel Lemire – What to Do Next by Jeff Henderson * Check out the Unicorns in the Breakroom 6-part series of episodes on job search and interviewing starting with Episode 11 – Job Hunting. They also have Episode 17 focused on survivor’s guilt and the impact of layoffs. * Remember to check out following free resources: + Our Layoff Resources Page – a list of the most impactful conversations we’ve had on the show focused on the topic of layoffs. + The Career Uncertainty Action Guide with the 5 pillars of career resilience and AI prompts to help you work through overwhelm, financial planning, and a layoff scenario * Do you know someone who has a layoff story that needs to be told to encourage others in the community? Send us an e-mail to make guest suggestions!
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
“Unfortunately, your role at this company has been eliminated.” These are the words none of us want to hear, but it’s a reality many in tech are facing. What would you do if that unexpected call came tomorrow? This week’s episode is one we all need to hear.
Jason Gass returns (this time as a guest) in episode 342 to share his story of navigating a layoff. You’ll hear about Jason’s initial reaction to the news and what he did next to take action.
Listen closely to hear how Jason treated the job opportunities he was targeting like a sales pipeline to remain focused, where he looked for emotional support, the tools that helped sharpen his resume, and how nurturing and leaning on his professional network made all the difference along the way.
Original Recording Date: 08-07-2025
Topics – Jason Gass Returns, When a Phone Call Changes Everything, Sources of Support and Maintaining Connections, Emotional Balance and Job Opportunities as a Sales Pipeline, Helpful Tools in the Job Search Process, The Network Effect2:20 – Jason Gass Returns* Jason Gass joined us as a guest host for a series of episodes reviewing the book Finish by Jon Acuff and is back this week as a guest. + The book series on Finish was published in episodes 272 – 275, and you can listen back to them using the link above. + The book series idea came from Jason, and so did the idea for the discussion today. * We wanted to take this opportunity to tell Jason’s story through the lens of layoffs across the technology industry. + Many of our friends and colleagues in the industry have been met with unexpected job loss over the last couple of years. Jason says it’s been a journey going through this same process, and he’s here to share what worked and what didn’t work.
3:32 – When a Phone Call Changes Everything* What type of role was Jason in before the layoff happened, and what did he like most about it? + For about the last 5 years, Jason has worked in a sales engineering / technical pre-sales role for different technology vendors. + As part of the role, Jason has greatly enjoyed working with both customers and partners to solve problems and improve the day-to-day lives of technology professionals. The work is dynamic, and each customer has a different problem. * What was the day of the layoff like, and what was Jason’s immediate reaction? + Jason was working at a company that had been previously acquired. There were changes happening, and Jason and his teammates knew they might be impacted by these changes but had no idea of when. + Jason remembers getting a call to let him know his position was being eliminated. It was a very quick call and very formal. + Once Jason’s phone rang that day, he knew exactly what was going to happen. + “I was prepared as much as I could. It’s still a gut punch. Man, I can’t believe I didn’t make the cut. What’s wrong with me? Why was it me vs. somebody else?” – Jason Gass, on what goes through your mind in a layoff situation - There was still negative self-talk despite expecting that layoffs were going to happen. + Jason tells us he was laid off a couple of times during the 2008 financial crisis. - “Looking back, that’s probably a good experience because I’ve gone through it once before. The one thing…I learned from that experience is these things happen, and a lot of good things happen afterwards. But it’s hard to have that lens when it first happens…. Everything emotionally hits you. All of those thoughts start going through your head….” – Jason Gass - People who get laid off are worried about paying the bills, supporting their family, and how long it will take to get their next job. - It’s easier to see the positives that came from a situation like this when you’re looking back on it later. Maybe someone took a different role, got to work for a different company that excited them, or even made more money. - Jason says we can get complacent and lose sight of our value in the marketplace. A layoff situation can force people out of their comfort zone. + John reminds us that we’re not living in the age of having a job for life. Companies can be pretty ruthless when eliminating roles, and this is a fact. - Jason says back in 2008 he started thinking of himself as a line item on a spreadsheet. Though it can be hard for us to think this way, it’s business and the way the world works. - “It reminded me…I’m still a player in this game, and I still have control. It’s what I do with that control.” – Jason Gass - This line of thinking reminded Jason to understand his value in the marketplace and to keep his skill set current to provide options if a layoff happened or if he just wanted to make a change. + Nick thinks we might not be mindful of the control we have or might not exercise it because we’re so focused on our daily work. - This is partially due to craving the structure of routines. - John says if we acknowledge a layoff as a possibility, it means we have to react to it before it happens (even if it doesn’t happen). But a lot of times we don’t want to have to think about it and choose the path of avoidance. + If you get laid off, Jason says it’s ok to take time for yourself (a few days, maybe even a week to let the news sink in). In fact, you should. He did not do this and started making calls within 5-10 minutes of receiving the news. - “It caught up with me about 4 days later. That emotional drain finally came down on me, and it mentally drained me.” – Jason Gass - In giving advice to people who have been in this situation (unexpected job loss), Jason tells people it’s ok to take time to process. But after that, the job is to find a new job. This means keeping a normal, structured routine. If you get up and go to the gym every day, keep doing it. - At work we would be completing a specific task / set of role-specific tasks. The tasks you need to complete after being laid off include things like revising your resume, updating your LinkedIn profile, contacting people in our network, and finding in-person meetup groups to attend. - Jason emphasizes the importance of meeting people in person for professional networking and support. It’s a bit of a lost art after COVID. Listen closely to Jason’s description of one specific local meetup group supporting people looking for employment.
10:34 – Sources of Support and Maintaining Connections* Sometimes when people lose a job at a specific company, they struggle with their identity. Was this a challenge for Jason? + Jason has held jobs he loved, but they were not his only identity. Many people consider their work or their job the entirety of their identity. + “There’s things outside the workplace that I have so much more passion for.” – Jason Gass + Knowing a layoff might happen helped Jason prepare and prevent too much tying of identity to the job. But he also stayed educated on the opportunities available in the job market. + Being in Dallas / Fort Worth, Jason has read about many companies moving their headquarters to this area. But with many others in the market for jobs right now, there is a lot of competition. * Was there a specific process Jason went through to combat the emotional drain of the layoff event we discussed earlier? + Jason says there were good days and bad days. + Some days were filled with many interviews. Others were filled with rejection and news that a specific interview process would not continue. + Some of the things that really helped Jason through this process were… - Talking to his wife - Keeping in touch with colleagues who had been laid off as well as those who remained at the company - One of Jason’s colleagues created a chat group with displaced people across the country who were going through the same thing, and it was great to be connected with others who were going through the same thing. - An account rep Jason worked with had been laid off a number of months prior to Jason but had gotten back on his feet. The account rep told Jason to call him any time, even if it was to vent and let out some of his emotions and frustrations. - “I didn’t realize how important that was when I gave it to him until I needed that same platform.” – Jason Gass, on getting support from a co-worker he had previously supported after a layoff event + John highlights the importance of having different people who can support us through these difficult situations. It’s not just family or a specific peer. It’s many others who can support us. - Jason highlights the group chat as something that worked extremely well. - If Jason saw a job listing that might help a member of the group, he would share it. This included roles that were not suited for him as well as roles that listed openings in multiple locations. Jason would even offer to introduce members of the group to people he met as part of the interview process where applicable. - “One of the nice things is I met a lot of great people. I didn’t get chosen. I might not have been the final candidate through the process, but I made a lot of great connections through the whole process. So even if I didn’t get chosen, I still made connections where I could say, ‘hey, I know someone over here. Do you mind talking to them?’” – Jason Gass * Did Jason ask people he met through interviews to stay in touch as a way to maintain connections over time? + Many of the people Jason interviewed with would connect with him on LinkedIn. In cases where he was not selected for a role, people encouraged Jason to reach out to them in the future. + Jason made a point of letting people know he appreciated them taking the time to interview him and would often send LinkedIn messages of thanks. + Jason tells us that solution engineering / sales engineering is a big field, but there aren’t a lot of players. + “I relate it to people like trading baseball cards. You start seeing the same people. They just rotate from one company to another…. It didn’t work out this time around. That’s understandable. We don’t know where we’re going to be three, four, five years down the road.” – Jason Gass + John tells us hiring managers are always looking to build a bench of talent from which they can pull at a later time. Likely any candidate who made it to the final round of interviews could do the job well and is someone a hiring manager would want to keep in touch with for possible future openings. + Jason tells the story of when he first got into sales engineering. He interviewed with a company and did not get the job at the time. But he stayed in contact with the hiring manager on LinkedIn. - The hiring manager would see Jason posting content on LinkedIn now and then. - Roughly 3 years later, the same hiring manager had an opening on his team. Jason reached out about the role, and the hiring manager both remembered Jason and said he would love to have Jason interview for the opening.
16:52 – Emotional Balance and Job Opportunities as a Sales Pipeline* John brings up the necessity of emotional balance during a job search. The job search process is like sales processing or maintaining a sales pipeline. There seems to be more at stake in selecting your next career move versus making a sale. How did Jason handle the emotional regulation? + Jason thought about applying for and looking for jobs just like a sales pipeline. Looking back, he calls it a marathon. + Until you get an offer letter that you will accept, you keep focused on pursuing opportunities in your pipeline and generating new opportunities. This means continuing with interview processes, networking, and submitting applications. + Jason was laid off at the beginning of November. He interviewed hard for 4 months and says it was even more difficult than working a normal job. + “And I think the hardest part about it is that you always have to be on. You always have to be ready to take a call from a recruiter or a hiring manager…. I remember I interviewed so much in 1 week I talked so much I lost my voice…because you’re always on…. It’s hard. We’re not used to talking that long…. We’re not going out there and talking for 4, 6 hours a day like a professional speaker.” – Jason Gass + At this time of year, some companies were looking to fill roles quickly. Jason recounts being out Christmas shopping and being asked if he could take a call about a job. Other times he had to take 4 calls in a row with only a short break during the entire period. + Nick mentions people like Brendon Burchard work out heavily to be able to speak for 9 hours per day. + Jason says he was mentally exhausted after so much interviewing, but it was good from the standpoint of having so much activity. + “I knew something was going to happen. I knew offer was going to come. I just had to stay diligent.” – Jason Gass * Was there a specific system Jason used to track all of the applications and interviews and follow ups he needed to do? + Jason kept track of where he applied, who he spoke with, and action items. + He would keep track of salary information for the roles as well. Many of the jobs had a large salary range, and it was important to see where he would be in that range. + Jason shares the story of a friend who applied for nearly 1000 jobs last year. This friend had multiple resumes and was tracking which resume got the most responses and focused time on refining it even more. + Many job applicants are taking a shotgun approach to applying for jobs, and it is causing some problems. - A single job posting might get 500 applicants, but how are candidates filtered on the back end? - A friend told Jason the number of applicants for a job on LinkedIn is really how many people clicked the link to apply. But not everyone who clicks the link fills out the application. - For a position with 500 applicants, someone would remove people not in the right geographic area. That might get it down to 300. If you trim down the candidates who don’t have the right skillset, that might narrow the list to 100 people to choose from for interviews. - “It’s caveats on both sides because you might be a great candidate for the role. You might read that description and say, ‘hey, I can do everything in that job. But how do I get my resume noticed if there’s so many other people?’ …There’s a lot of cloudiness in the water. So how do you make yourself stand out?” – Jason Gass
22:57 – Helpful Tools in the Job Search Process* John agrees with the recommendation against playing a numbers game. He advocates qualifying the positions you’re looking for and doing a custom resume for each position. The key words and skills will be different for each job to which you apply. + Job descriptions may even have variations of the same term / terms. He gives the example of MEDDIC and MEDDPICC as qualification tools for selling. + The time and effort for a custom resume are significant. + Jason was given advice to use AI to help with his resume. There are many tools out there. + “I feel like we’re having AI wars. We have AIs writing resumes, and then we have AI analyzing the resumes before a single person even looks at it.” – Jason Gass + Jason mentions LinkedIn’s Premium Career subscription as a helpful tool. There are AI tools built into it. - Jason liked the fact that he could take his resume, compare it to a job description, and the tool would make suggested enhancements to the resume to fit the specific job description. - Jason was able to spot patterns in the key words that would come up again and again, and using the tool helped him tailor a resume to these specific systems for job applications. - “And, of course, AI is not the last step. After AI, you still need to go through and groom it. Is this accurate? Is this true? Does it sound like me? You still have to go and do the finishing touches.” – Jason Gass - With the help of the tool, Jason was able to get his LinkedIn profile up to date, write some cover letters, and write some messages to contact some hiring messages through InMail. It helped make Jason’s writing better on all of these fronts. + “I finally got comfortable enough just reaching out to people that I may not know.” – Jason Gass + Jason made a list of the top companies he wanted to target in his job search. If he knew someone working at a specific target company, he would reach out to that person. - Reaching out to people you know at companies can help you get connected with a recruiter or hiring manager and get a resume in front of them. + In the case of companies where Jason didn’t have any professional connections, he would find the local sales engineering manager and reach out to that person. He calls this “planting seeds.” - Jason would express interest in the company and ask these managers if they know of any openings coming available in the next few months. For context, Jason was reaching out during the 4th quarter of a lot of companies, and some tend to open new roles in their 1st quarter of the following fiscal year. - John emphasizes that hiring managers like to have a bench of talent they can put into their pipeline when a job requisition opens. There is nothing wrong with contacting a hiring manager, stating that you understand there are no current openings, and asking for an informational interview. This allows the manager to get to know you a little bit and might help put you on that bench of talent for future consideration.
27:59 – The Network Effect* Jason says he never turned on the Open to Work indicator on LinkedIn. + “For the first few months, I just targeted my network or LinkedIn, and in the end, that’s what got me 95% of my interviews…working my network, talking to people, connecting with people through several different means and avenues.” – Jason Gass + Jason got the role he has now as a result of leaning on his professional network. * Jason tells us when he was first laid off, he started calling people in his network inside the company first to look for open roles. + Even though his role was eliminated, Jason understood other roles within the company could still be a good fit. * Jason also mentions calling a long-time friend and someone who was his sales engineer from years ago. + This friend had moved on to another company over time. Once Jason relayed the story of what happened, his friend found out who the hiring manager was in Jason’s area. + “He didn’t know the hiring manager. But he found who it was, made an e-mail introduction, and I found that the company was a sponsor at a local tech event coming up in 2 weeks.” – Jason Gass, on leveraging help from a friend + Jason asked the hiring manager if he planned to be at the local tech event, and as it turns out, the manager would be there. After meeting the manager in person at this event, Jason was asked to share his resume with the hiring manager. - Though the hiring manager shared Jason’s resume with others he knew, there were no openings at the time. But Jason’s friend reached out to him months later about something different. - “Nothing came out of it then. We’re talking November time frame…. That seed that I planted in November ended up sprouting in February and then in the end landed me a position.” – Jason Gass * How did Jason know who to call first when the layoff happened? Did he have a mental list in mind already? + The first person Jason called was a manager of his from a previous job who had remained a mentor for many years. + They had talked fairly recently, and Jason had been wondering if the role he was in really was the right one. Jason wanted to understand what else might be available and wanted to reach back out to the former manager to see if he knew of any openings. + “I talked to probably a dozen people the first day. I got the call at like 9 o’clock. I was on the phone until 5 o’clock that afternoon talking to a variety of different people.” – Jason Gass + Jason talked to other colleagues inside the company to see if they were safe from the layoffs or knew about internal openings in other departments. People with longevity at a company often know about job openings quickly. + “I think the first good step is saying…if I don’t have to go out there in the wild, wild west and look for a whole new job…if I’m happy with the company…can I just migrate into another role? Could I cover a different territory? Instead of being pre-sales, maybe I could go to post-sales. Or could I get into consulting or something of that nature?” – Jason Gass + Nick suggests if you think layoffs will happen at your company, consider making that top 5 or top 10 list of who you would call to store where it can be retrieved if you find yourself in the same situation as Jason. + “I think about it, and a lot of times people reach out only when they want something. How long did they maintain the relationship? I’ve learned to try to keep some ongoing relationship with my network.” – Jason Gass + People will post about work anniversaries or achieving certifications. Consider sending them a message to ask how they are doing. Suggest you catch up with them. Jason says it doesn’t have to be as frequent as once per month and could even be once per year. + Jason mentions the importance of publishing content and has posted about his involvement in Toasmasters over time. He tells us this would come up in conversations when he was looking for work. - “People I hadn’t seen in years. ‘Hey, I know we haven’t talked in a while, but I’ve followed you on LinkedIn and saw that you’re in Toastmasters…. I’ve always thought about doing that. Can you tell me more about it?’ That rapport that we may have had years ago just picked right up…. I find it really important to maintain some form of relationships with…my network so that when I did reach out and say, ‘hey, I’m looking for a job’ it wasn’t about what can you do for me.” – Jason Gass + Jason had been maintaining relationships with people in his network independent of whether the layoff was going to happen. He reminds us that the tech space is small but ever changing.
Mentioned in the Outro* Any idea who you would call if this happened to you? + It’s good to have a list of people in mind, and it’s good to start connecting with people in your network more often than you are now. Amidst our busy lives, we need to make time to connect with others both inside and outside our company. * In Episode 317 – Own Your Job Search: Be the Captain, Find a Harbor Pilot, we talked about the concept of a harbor pilot who can help you navigate the hiring process at a company where you would like to work. Jason leveraged his professional network to do this. Plant those seeds now! * Are you attending in-person meetup groups? + If not, Nick suggests going to any meetup group that fits an interest you have, even if it falls outside of technology. You would be surprised at how many people you meet work in tech but look to other interests as well. * Jason mentioned being part of a chat group of other people who also experienced unexpected job loss. Would you be willing to lend a helping hand to others like he has? * Remember to check out following free resources: + Our Layoff Resources Page – a list of the most impactful conversations we’ve had on the show focused on the topic of layoffs. + The Career Uncertainty Action Guide with the 5 pillars of career resilience and AI prompts to help you work through overwhelm, financial planning, and a layoff scenario * Do you know someone who has a layoff story that needs to be told to encourage others in the community? Send us an e-mail to make guest suggestions!
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
What can you do to stand out as an individual contributor on a large team? The first step is seeking absolute clarity on your role, and it begins with an honest conversation between you and your manager.
Al and Leanne Elliott are back with us this week in episode 341 to continue the discussion about life in flatter organizations with larger teams. Come learn why managers need a support network to be more effective with their team, how to gain role clarity while making your manager look good, and what it means for a leader to champion their people. Pay special attention to the list of introspective questions that can help us take control in our work environment during uncertain times. You’ll also get to hear how Truth, Lies and Work has evolved its content focus over time to serve an even wider audience and what Al and Leanne have learned as content creators.
If you’ve never had a reason to watch Ted Lasso, this episode may contain a compelling reason to start. And if you’re looking for a role model for being a stand out on your team, we will introduce you to Bob during this episode.
Original Recording Date: 07-12-2025
If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Al and Leanne last week, check out Episode 340 – Task Cohesion: Managing a Larger Team in a Flatter Organization amidst a Climate of Uncertainty with Al and Leanne Elliott (1/2)
Topics – Go Ahead and Pull the Cord, Hiding the Wires, Gaining Role Clarity and Gracious Managers, Introspection Gives Us Control, Creating Content for the Chaotic World of Work* Both Leanne Elliott and Al Elliott are back to join us for part 2 of a special discussion today. They are the hosts of Truth, Lies & Work and have each been guests on the show in the past (but never at the same time). + To listen to the episodes featuring Al as a guest, check out: - Episode 235 – The Best Bad Option with Al Elliott (1/2) - Episode 236 – Having the Vision, Charting the Path, Removing the Blockers with Al Elliott (2/2) + To listen to the episodes featuring Leanne as a guest, check out: - Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2) - Episode 238 – Managers as Culture Keepers with Leanne Elliott (2/2)
3:05 – Go Ahead and Pull the Cord* Nick says this sounds like the recent solo episode John recorded (Episode 334 – First Time Manager – Your Old Job Description Has Been Deleted) and fighting the urge to answer the question. + John says that was directly from a coaching course he took as part of first-time manager training. + It seems less efficient timewise when someone comes to you with a problem you could solve quickly. It’s more efficient in the long run to guide someone through learning how to solve the problem themselves even if it takes longer in the short term. + Leanne says you’re building a person’s capabilities, confidence, and thinking process. This also creates a safe space for the person to ask any question. This genuine human interaction breeds trust, connection, and psychological safety. + “You’re not only gaining that 30 seconds back for every problem in the future. You’re gaining enormous amounts of trust and connection, which are two vital things that you need as a manager, and generally, in organizational life we really need right now.” – Leanne Elliott + Al references a recent podcast episode he and Leanne did with Andrew Palmer (the host of Boss Class) in which Andrew recounted his trip to a Toyota production facility in the UK. - In the Toyota facility there was a specific cord anyone could pull to completely stop the production line. Someone may stop it to ask a question or if something doesn’t look quite right, for example. The cord is also pulled to celebrate something or to share good news. - How many times do you think the cord gets pulled per day for a facility with 2000 employees? - That cord gets pulled (and the production line is stopped) on average 14,000 times per day (an average of 7 pulls per employee). Al says this is a great testament to psychological safety for employees. - John agrees and says it’s a testament to the organization’s culture. - Al says he and Leanne asked Andrew about new employees. New employees are encouraged to pull it to get that out of the way. + Leanne says good managers can give their employees the opportunity to pull the cord by asking for their feedback in different situations and giving them a voice. + "You’re showing that openness and vulnerability to go, “have your say. Your voice is important here too.’ And that’s probably the first baby step…you’re literally asking them to pull the cord.” – Leanne Elliott
8:03 – Hiding the Wires* In Episode 238 – Managers as Culture Keepers with Leanne Elliott (2/2) we talked about the concept of managers hiding the wires. If an organization is flatter and managers have more employees, is it more difficult for a manager to hide the wires, or is it the same? + “Hide the wires” means you’re making sure as a manager that the emotional blowback or frustration from a situation doesn’t impact one of your employees. + Leanne says it may not be harder or easier based on the size of a manager’s team. It’s more important that a manager has a support network with which they can share some of the emotional load or stressful situations. This could be a senior manager, a peer, a coach, a mentor, or even a therapist. + “It’s finding something beyond your immediate team context and the support you need to offload that…. It’s what psychologists call emotional regulation. It’s understanding, having that self-awareness…. ‘I’m feeling angry, but expressing that anger in this context right now isn’t going to serve me or my team….’ Being mindful and having that self-awareness of how you operate emotionally in terms of your behaviors is going to have a direct impact on the mood and motivation of your team. So, if that’s not going to be positive, then hide the wires.” – Leanne Elliott, on hiding the wires as a manager - Leanne says the anger or frustration mentioned above still needs to be expressed, but it can be done via a manager’s support network. + John tells us it can be very difficult when you’re asked to relay something you do not agree with or have emotional friction with to prevent passing along your reaction. But doing this can cue people in a way you don’t want. Part of a manager’s job is to be an intermediary and get feedback from the people they manage, aggregate it, and send it to upper-level leaders. - Don’t assume your team will have the same reaction to something that you had. Your reaction may be the result of just having a bad morning, for example. The idea may not be that bad. Try to avoid setting a cognitive bias for your team. - “Either way you don’t want to put them in a position where they have to do the work to change your mind before you can explore the idea or the possibility. You want to go to neutral space to understand exactly what their thoughts are. Chances are, they’re probably going to be the same as yours. On the off chance that they’re not, then yeah, it’s worth having some patience in that moment.” – Leanne Elliott - John reminds us that the person who passed an idea to a manager to relay to team members may not have been the originator of the idea either.
12:14 – Gaining Role Clarity and Gracious Managers* What if someone is an individual contributor on a large team of 15-20 people? It might be difficult to stand out as a high performer or to get time and attention even just for help. What ideas and guidance would Al and Leanne offer? + Al tells us it will depend on what the manager of the team is like. The manager could be overwhelmed or feel they are short on time to accomplish anything. Suppose we assume it’s a good manager who is on the lookout for high performing team members. - Sales environments, for example, are very target driven. To stand out in this environment, you have to be good at sales, close decent deals, and be a decent human being. - If you’re a back-end developer, the target may be number of commits or reducing the number of product bugs. - It’s difficult for Al to find something universal that will make your manager appreciate or notice you. Is there something? - Leanne says the example of sales is great because there is role clarity about what the job is and what the measures of success are. - “There’s so much clarity in sales because as an employee you know exactly what it is that you have to do at a transactional level to deliver the outcomes of your role.” – Leanne Elliott, on role clarity in sales - Leanne suggests trying to gain role clarity through an honest conversation with your manager. Many people do not have this. What if we asked our managers what their expectations are of us, the objectives we need to hit, what good looks like in our role, what the manager wants to deliver, and how to make them look great? - “I think ultimately as long as you know exactly what you have to deliver and you’re doing what you can to deliver it…and where you can, above and beyond…and where you can, make your manager look good or make their life easier or the life of your colleagues easier…that’s what exceptional performance looks like to me in a non-sales role. It’s somebody who is very clear on what they need to deliver, very willing to support their colleagues in helping them deliver…for the team, and very much there as a supportive member of staff to the manager….” – Leanne Elliott - This isn’t necessarily easy in practice. For you to get the role clarity we’re talking about, your manager must first have clarity about your role. But this is a great starting point according to Leanne. + Should we seek role clarity from our manager on a regular basis, especially if there has been a change in team or greater organization structure, for example? - Leanne says this is an opportunity to be curious, especially during times of change, and to have an open conversation with your manager. You can ask about the expectations of the team and the organization for example. - This goes back to concepts surrounding the formation of teams. Leanne highlights teams forming, storming, and norming. Part of this process is getting clarity on what the team is trying to achieve and your role in delivery of the mission. If your manager isn’t providing that clarity, it’s ok to be curious and seek it out. * John speaks about some administrative responsibilities of management and needing certain tasks complete by team members based on weekly deadline. There were people he consistently had to remind to complete the tasks and those that never needed to be reminded. Having a much larger team makes it even more important to be clear on required tasks and deadlines which will help the team deliver. + What if we asked our manager whether letting them know something was completed before a deadline would make their job easier? + “If you say you really want to stand out in a team, how many of your teammates…are going to say…‘how do I make your job easier? How do I make you look great to your boss?’ How many people would think to ask that question? So, if you are looking for that one hack…that seems to be it….” – Al Elliott + Leanne would add that managers should be gracious to team members who do miss the deadlines and try to figure out why it happens (seeking to understand the barriers to task completion). Team members may be overloaded or may need to go through the process again to fully understand it. Neurodiverse colleagues can benefit from strategies like body doubling. + Leanne reminds us that very few people seek to do a bad job and are doing it to be annoying. In the cases where they do, it would fall under workplace incivility. When only a handful of team members are not meeting deadlines, it could very well be there is something they do not understand. + John assumes good intentions even when people miss deadlines and likes the idea of grace from the manager seat. These scenarios can be opportunities to coach and to understand what might be underlying specific behavior. + Leanne recounts someone she managed being exceptional in all aspects of their role but the administrative paperwork. This person would miss deadlines, and it caused downstream problems. Listen closely to how she handled it and what happened next. - “My breakthrough moment was when I said, ‘I can’t make you look good if you’re not giving me the outcomes. I know how great you are. But the people above me, they don’t know how great you are. They’re just looking at outcomes on a spreadsheet.’ And that for her was that connection….” – Leanne Elliott, on helping one of her direct reports understand the importance of administrative tasks + Al mentions a French teacher from his school days who knew he was skilled in French but couldn’t grade him that way because he didn’t turn in homework. After the conversation with the teacher, Al changed his behavior and earned a good grade. + In each of these examples (the manager, the teacher) made it clear they wanted someone to do well. + “What a great rule of management. You want to be a great manager? Champion your people. Celebrate them. Show off their achievements, and let them know…that you are on their side and you want to show off their achievements. Because that as a manager makes me look great. If my team is smashing it, then I’m doing a great job too. We’re all on the same side. We’re all going to win together…. Imagine sitting down with your boss, and they said to you, ‘I’m on your side. I want to celebrate everything you do.’” – Leanne Elliott + Al says one might be tempted to think that on a large team others have to lose in order for you to win, but we shouldn’t think that way. It does not have to be a zero-sum game. + This idea of showing a team member you are on their side is a coaching moment. Delivering a message of “help me help you” with compassion and honesty can be very effective. + Al mentions a recent interview with Jeff LeBlanc who did a study on kindness in leadership. In that discussion they talked a lot about the TV show Ted Lasso. Jeff LeBlanc feels Ted Lasso as a character portrays the perfect manager – a blend of kindness, thoughtfulness, humility, and an unwillingness to give up on people. - Nick has never seen the show but will consider watching it now. Check it out and let us know what you think. - John reference’s Ted Lasso’s commitment to a process for improving the team over the outcome of winning.
27:27 – Introspection Gives Us Control* Is there a secondary theme in what we talked about of encouraging individual contributors to be entrepreneurs of their own reputation? Think about wanting to start something, wanting to solve problems, etc. Maybe we could apply this to our own reputation and ensure it’s strong? + Al says in some ways an entrepreneur might not like taking instruction. + “Most people want to do a good job. Most people want to be recognized for doing a good job. Is it not as simple as…well, what does a good job look like? Let me just strive to do that every single day. And then all the hacks and tricks and building your internal brand up through an organization or being entrepreneur, it doesn’t matter…. People just go, ‘Bob…he always delivers a day early, and it’s always exceptional work. And do you know what? If he’s got a problem or someone’s got a problem on a Friday afternoon, he’ll drop what he’s doing and go over and help them and then go back and finish his work. Be more Bob.’” – Al Elliott + Leanne says this thought gives us control in a work environment where we feel we are lacking control. Here are some introspective questions for those feeling unsafe at work, fearful of losing their job, or who have been laid off: - What type of professional do I want to be? - What does meaningful work look like to me? - What do I want to be remembered for? - What do I want to be known for? - What work makes me proud? - Who am I as a person? - What are my values? Examples are things like kindness, a belief in equity, etc. - “It’s such a wonderful moment to actually think about what do I want work to mean to me. And in that will come an intentionality around the behaviors you enact and the way you operate in the world and your workplace…. You will craft that, whatever you want to call it – that brand, that presence, that Bob…. But I think it’s a wonderful time to do that introspection and think about exactly what it is you want to do, how you want to do it, where you want to do it…and that intentionality will trickle over time. In a world of uncertainty, what a wonderful way to feel like we’re gaining / taking some control back.” – Leanne Elliott
31:03 – Creating Content for the Chaotic World of Work* As podcasters, Al and Leanne have to be very intentional about the content they create and put out into the world. The theme of a podcast can change and be refined over time. What have Al and Leanne learned from this process, and what have they learned about what culture is and is not as a result?
+ When Al and Leanne started Truth, Lies, and Work it was about helping business owners and leaders and sharing best practices for environments that did not have the type of support internally from HR professionals or business psychologists. This intention is still at the core of the show.
+ The changes to the show since its inception have been in line with the chaos the world of work has been through over time. They added a second episode per week called This Week in Work to help address issues no one else was addressing.
- There have been poor practices from business leaders such as attacking specific groups of people or in handling mass layoffs that have a much deeper impact on human experience and organizational effectiveness.
- “So, it’s calling out bad practice like that that is being promoted in mainstream news that this is a great thing an organization is doing. It’s not, and this is why.” – Leanne Elliott, on This Week in Work
+ This Week in Work is mainly 3 segments:
- Looking at the new stories of the week – including a recent story about a company called BrewDog and steps taken to try and fix its toxic culture
- Highlighting hot takes or good thoughts from lesser-known industry names (i.e., occupational psychology students, new entrepreneurs, those who want to support a cause, etc.)
- Workplace surgery – questions from listeners sent in via e-mail and social media (many of which are now coming from employees instead of business owners)
+ “We’re doing episodes per week, and every single week we try and make it just 1% better. And some weeks we make it 1% worse…. The core thing we want people to get is that culture isn’t about having the perfect workplace. It’s about just trying to be a decent human being whether you are a manager, whether you are a business owner, whether you’re HR, whether you’re just on the ground pulling the cord. Just be a decent human being and try your very best, and over time, it will get better….” – Al Elliott
+ Leanne says they have also let ideas shared by guests inform the content for the show.
- One recent example is The truth about mental health at work, with Dr Sarah Hughes, CEO at Mind.
- As a result of the above discussion, Leanne and Al were encouraged to discuss how to support mental illness in the workplace on the show. Check out The truth about working with schizophrenia, with Kody Green, The Schizophrenic Hippie and Do you work with a psychopath? With Dr Abigail Marsh to cite some specific examples.
+ “It’s moments like that as well. It’s picking up what we learn from people who are infinitely smarter than we are and figuring out ways and how we as podcasters can expand that conversation for our learning and for our audience as well.” – Leanne Elliott
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Remember to check out Truth, Lies and Work…
- On the Truth, Lies and Work website
- In your favorite podcast app (subscribe here)
- Find This Week in Work also on YouTube
- On LinkedIn
- On Instagram
Mentioned in the Outro* According to Brendon Burchard, the author of High Performance Habits, one of the six habits of high performers is to seek clarity. + Maybe you feel like you should have already gained role clarity and are worried about asking. You don’t have to wait for an organizational change or a change of managers to ask the question if you really don’t have the clarity you need. + We take a job based on a certain job description at the time of hire, and that has likely changed over time. We may just need our manager to refine the definition of success for us. + Maybe there is a skill you have learned that could fill a gap on the current team. Without talking to your manager, you might miss an opportunity to stand out. * The introspective questions Leanne shared were also to help us gain clarity about what we want from our work and what we value. Much like the thesis or focus of a podcast, the answers to these questions can be different over time as we grow and learn. + The answers to these questions may indicate you really want to do something different or need to seek fulfillment outside of your job for the time being. + We can keep asking ourselves these questions and pay attention to whether the answers change. * If you want more resources for dealing with uncertainty, remember to visit these pages: + Our Layoff Resources Page with the most impactful discussions on the topic of layoffs with experts like Leanne Elliott and technologists not so different from you. + Our Career Uncertainty Action Guide with the 5 pillars of career resilience and AI prompts to help you work through overwhelm, financial planning, and a layoff scenario + Remember to subscribe to Truth, Lies and Work + Listen all the way to the end for some fun!
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
How can managers be effective when they are expected to manage larger teams? To strengthen relationships with team members and support team cohesion, start with task cohesion.
Al and Leanne Elliott, former guests and the hosts of Truth, Lies and Work join us to explain how uncertainties in the world have impacted business owners, entrepreneurs, and people managers. In episode 340, we explore the reasons behind industry trends of layoffs, flatter organizations, and larger teams. If you’re a manager in need of help or someone seeking to lead a team, Al and Leanne Elliott have practical tips to manage well in a challenging environment.
Original Recording Date: 07-12-2025
Topics – Welcome Back Al and Leanne Elliott, Uncertainty’s Impact on Current Trends, Keeping the Entrepreneurial Spirit, Organizational Flattening, Challenges to Effective Management of Larger Teams, Management and Coaching2:35 – Welcome Back Al and Leanne Elliott* Both Leanne Elliott and Al Elliott are back to join us for a special discussion today. They are the hosts of Truth, Lies & Work and have each been guests on the show in the past (but never at the same time). + To listen to the episodes featuring Al as a guest, check out: - Episode 235 – The Best Bad Option with Al Elliott (1/2) - Episode 236 – Having the Vision, Charting the Path, Removing the Blockers with Al Elliott (2/2) + To listen to the episodes featuring Leanne as a guest, check out: - Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2) - Episode 238 – Managers as Culture Keepers with Leanne Elliott (2/2)
3:13 – Uncertainty’s Impact on Current Trends* Our discussion with Al and Leanne is to revisit themes of job uncertainty and economic uncertainty and to look at some trends we’re seeing. + A few years ago, the job market was booming. Right now, we’re advising people in times of uncertainty. We knew Al and Leanne would have a unique perspective on this topic. * We tend to have a US-centric view of things and may not have a global picture of economic uncertainty and job uncertainties. What perspective can Al and Leanne share in this regard? + Leanne says in the UK uncertainty is a great way to categorize the situation. Some companies are doing layoffs, but many are taking a pause. This pause could mean lack of growth, lack investment, or a slowing of revenue. People are definitely fearful. + Business owners in the UK are pursuing what’s called a lifestyle business – a business which provides a blend of the specific lifestyle and purpose that owners want. - “Rapid hypergrowth is no longer the number 1 priority.” – Leanne Elliott + Al says in the UK, upwards of 90% of people are employed by small businesses. Many people believe the labor government in the UK is not really doing the things necessary to stabilize commerce. - “There are big businesses who are frightened as in ‘I might lose my job when a new CEO comes in,’ but the smaller businesses with say 50, 60 employees are frightened going, ‘if I don’t get this right, I’m going to lose everything and everyone’s going to lose their jobs.’” – Al Elliott + Is the lifestyle business Leanne mentioned focused more on the business owner, or does it also include the lifestyle of company employees? - Business owners Leanne has talked to or heard of through colleagues are mindful of their employees, deciding not to take unnecessary risks like pursuing growth during times of uncertainty. Business owners are focusing on quality, efficiency, and automation right now. - In the UK specifically, there have been a number of employment laws made under the labor government which sound great but bring risk for businesses in their execution. Leanne shares some examples like rights to flexible working on day 1 and National Living Wage. - While the laws mentioned above do help employees, business owners hesitate when they are unclear on how to embed those laws in their business operations (i.e., lack of guidance, etc.). They might choose to employ more contractors instead of hiring new employees under these laws, for example. - Leanne thinks business owner decisions at present are being driven by uncertainty, ambiguity, and fear.
7:41 – Keeping the Entrepreneurial Spirit* Does the fear Leanne mentioned crush the entrepreneurial spirit? Entrepreneurs may be leading some of these small businesses that they’ve founded. + This calls back to Al’s story in the episodes shared above. + “I think true entrepreneurs…they live for challenges. And when things are going well, that’s when they normally mess it up.” – Al Elliott + Al thinks entrepreneurs react well to challenges in the first 3-4 years of starting a business but may struggle to be effective beyond that. He feels the current climate is just another challenge to the entrepreneur. + Al highlights the UK’s IR35 and its rules for hiring contractors. As a result of legislation like this, entrepreneurs and business owners might find it simpler and less risky to hire contractors over full-time employees. - There was a trend of focusing on hiring full-time employees in the last 10 years, but that may be halted or turned in the other direction because of the current climate and additional governmental rules placed on hiring full-time employees. - Al highlights for us that in certain European countries, firing a full-time employee requires a business to pay the employee 6 months of salary. + In Al’s opinion, entrepreneurs are more optimistic people by nature, but the decision about how quickly to scale a business by hiring more people requires careful consideration due to the current climate we’ve discussed. - “I think it’s remembering that…globally and in the UK as well, it has been relentless for business owners since 2016…. There’s been so much disruption and so much change that I honestly think entrepreneurs, business leaders are exhausted. They’re burning out…. An entrepreneur wants to keep fighting. They want to keep going, but it’s how they invest their energy…. So, during this period where the business may be fairly stable, they’re finding other ways to fill that entrepreneurial need and that meaningful work they are currently lacking in a business that isn’t in a growth stage, which is hard for an entrepreneur.” – Leanne Elliott - Leanne mentions change of government in the UK, the pandemic, and other changes in the context of the impact to business leaders and entrepreneurs. - Business owners in the UK who have chosen the lifestyle business approach are spending more time on side hustles and diversifying what they are doing with their business. This is more about the individual business owner / entrepreneur than the organization as a whole. * John asks Leanne and Al if the laws apply only to businesses of certain sizes? In the US, for example, certain laws might only apply once a business reaches a certain number of employees. + Leanne’s understanding is the size of the business does not matter, so the laws would apply as soon as the first employee is hired. It is a drastic shift and a high risk for small businesses, and they are choosing not to focus on growth right now. + John thinks in the US there is additional risk in growing a business past a certain size. Some owners may want to take lessons learned and start multiple businesses below that threshold to diversify instead of running just a single company. Differences in laws across countries and even states might create microclimates of opportunity for businesses (i.e. venue shopping). + Al says there are conditions that allow businesses to employ and fire people easily without having to pay a large severance upon separation from the company (i.e. contract employment). This can make entrepreneurs feel more at ease about recruiting people because it lowers risk. + Leanne thinks it is a fine balance. In the UK there used to be probationary periods for employees that would provide full benefits and rights at the end of that period, but now employees have the same rights on day 1 as employees with a long tenure at the company. There’s been this weird shift of power and rights between employers and employees over time (before, during, and after the pandemic). + Leanne highlights a conversation with psychologist Rose Soffel from Truth, Lies and Work about the trust crisis. + “We’ve had so much push and pull and power swings over the last year years… I think with the changes in laws, geopolitics…there’s so much conflict in every sense of the word… in society and in our workplaces. People are just lacking trust – trust in their businesses, lacking trust in their leaders, lacking trust in their colleagues. We’re seeing massive increases in what we call workplace incivility at the minute, which isn’t bullying or harassment. It’s a level down from that but equally problematic…. It’s infighting. It’s gossiping. It’s withholding information from a colleague. That’s on the rise because there’s this issue with trust. So, I think having these laws come in are great on paper…. While it’s great on paper and comes from the right place…how does this same law apply to a business that has 10 employees…expected to meet and work to the same expectations and laws and legalities as a business with ten thousand employees? …The idea is in the right place. The execution…they haven’t quite got right.” – Leanne Elliott
16:16 – Organizational Flattening* The trust crisis and scale and workplace incivility at scale falls in line with the layoffs we continue to see in the tech industry (and in others). Why are so many organizations choosing to flatten their management layers and increase the manager to individual contributor ratios? This is a byproduct of a lot of these layoffs. + Leanne mentioned these things are cyclical, and we’re swinging back toward having less hierarchy as a trend. This is perceived as more startup-like and better for innovation and collaboration by some. + In the last 18 months, the lack of sufficient training for people managers has been highly publicized. Many people take on manager roles because it seems like the “next step” in their career. Leanne read a statistic recently that only just over 40% of managers ever had formal training. + “More than half of our managers aren’t equipped with the skills they need to lead our people…. The managers have the single biggest impact on employee performance, motivation, engagement, outcomes, productivity.” – Leanne Elliott + Organizations looking to make cuts might decide to fire managers that are inefficient instead of training them because they are also seen as expensive resources. + “For me, if you have great managers, they are the people that drive the success of your business…. The last time we talked we said that managers are culture keepers…and they really are. I think it’s naïve to think that removing a manager is going to solve all these problems. It’s not.” – Leanne Elliott + We need managers to help bridge the distance between the lowest levels of a company and senior leadership. + Leanne says people also think the flattening is intended to make organizations more agile. + Al says it’s difficult to attribute revenue directly to a manager. It’s much easier to attribute it to a resource on a production line or an individual contributor. + “It’s difficult when you’re looking at a spreadsheet to see the impact of what a manager does…. If you live in spreadsheets and you’re making the decisions based on numbers, it’s a no brainer…. What they don’t understand is that the IC produces ten thousand, a hundred thousand dollars a week in revenue because they’ve got an amazing manager.” – Al Elliott * Nick mentions if you’re one of the managers without training and you stay / are not impacted by a layoff, you may get more people to manage as well. + John is hearing of managers getting teams of 15 and even 20 people at times. As a people manager, John would schedule regular 1-1 meetings with each of the employees on his team. But then there are all the other upstream / lateral meetings a manager has to attend in addition to these. + “I’m sure these managers aren’t given more time to manage with a bigger team. They still have to do everything else they need to do in terms of their administration or their job in general. They just now have more people to manage, so we’re not freeing up time…. We’re setting up our managers yet again for failure.” – Leanne Elliott + Leanne mentions a fundamental misunderstanding of relationships in the workplace and teams in the workplace, citing the work of Daniel Priestley about the 13th hire being a kind of tipping point for small businesses. This blog post cites an example from a startup. We can easily apply that to the size of a team underneath one manager. + Nick mentioned failure as a manager of a large team might make it even more difficult to get back to a manager role someday. - Leanne tells us impostor syndrome comes from an inability to internalize our achievements. Humans are much better at internalizing our failures. - Going through the experience as a manager and the potential failure is what we call a workplace trauma (with a lowercase “t”). It can be devastating to one’s career and self-efficacy. - “It’s psychological harm we are causing potentially to these managers by not giving them the tools and the resources and the support that they need. It’s highly irresponsible from organizations to take this approach.” – Leanne Elliott
22:46 – Challenges to Effective Management of Larger Teams* Even in a challenging environment, is there a way that managers who care about doing a good job and have the willingness can be effective? + Leanne would say to focus on the relationships with the people on your team, but that’s going to be a challenge with such a large team whether you are a new or experienced manager. + “My advice to any manager in that situation is to focus on task cohesion, which is much more transactional and much easier to get right…. What’s the workflow? Who’s doing what? Who does what in what order? How does that contribute to the overall outcomes we’re trying to deliver? …If we can build in the systems and the processes that mean that task cohesion is really strong, then that means that over time we’re going to build team cohesion as a byproduct of that….” – Leanne Elliott + When you work with a colleague who makes your job easier, it’s natural to want to have a conversation with them and get to know them. This kind of thing breeds workplace civility – mutual respect and appreciation (which came about due to task cohesion). + Once task cohesion is in place, a manager can nurture the team cohesion. + Part of the work is building the team charter for what good looks like and the acceptable / unacceptable behaviors. But there is a step beyond this that Leanne calls a “check-in” with team members that can help you spot the issues and things that are bugging people on the team. + “It can be a 5-minute phone call on a Tuesday afternoon saying, ‘how are you doing? Anything making your job harder today? What can I do to make your job easier as a manager? What’s really bugging you?” – Leanne Elliott, on the manager’s check-in + The check-in can be a more time effective way of troubleshooting the fires to put out as a manager. Some managers may do formal 1-1 meetings, and that is great. Leanne encourages taking the approach of genuine care and seeking to make your team members’ jobs easier. + Al mentions the Pareto Principle and thinks maybe it’s more about pointing yourself at where the problems really are within the team using the targeted check-in approach rather than feeling the pressure to do a 1-hour 1-1 meeting with every team member once per week and everything else you need to do. + Leanne says the check-ins should be a phone call. Sending an instant message or e-mail adds one more task to a team member’s plate that they will worry about it. + “Pick up the phone. I know it might not always feel the most comfortable thing to do, but honestly once you get into the habit of it and once your employees get into the habit of…more vocal check-ins, it’s much more time efficient and less emotional load potentially.” – Leanne Elliott + John highlights that a connection task may not make a quality connection, and he likes Leanne’s suggestion to strive for quality. He also mentions every member of a team does not need the same amount of time from you as a manager. That equal spread may not serve everyone effectively. - Leanne says consider placing some intention toward reaching out to team members who are a bit more challenging. If you don’t want to reach out to specific members of your team, it signals that a conversation needs to happen. * If you’ve worked somewhere that has had multiple rounds of layoffs, an unexpected call from your boss creates some anxiety. A manager getting right to the point when they make a call can help ease this trauma people may have. + Al mentions if we get PSTD or an anxiety spike when our manager calls, it may be a sign our manager isn’t talking to us enough. A great manager checks in regularly as part of their role. + Leanne was laid off (or made redundant) in 2015, and it was incredibly difficult to go through. She had a great relationship with her manager leading up to the layoff event. Managers should strive to create relationships where a call to be laid off is the last thing on people’s mind, but our current climate plays a role in affecting people. + Leanne recently saw a LinkedIn post from a manager who remained at a tech company after layoffs happened. He was describing the support he was offering to the people who were leaving the organization (i.e., pointing them toward open roles, etc.) as well as to those who remained. This manager had to navigate survivor’s guilt just like other employes who remained at the company. - “I think it’s managers like that that you’re never going to be afraid to get a phone call from. Because even if it is the worst, they’ve done everything they can to protect you in the lead up to that moment.” – Leanne Elliott + Al mentions in the case of Leanne’s phone call when she was laid off, her boss got right to the point. Because the relationship was there, Leanne knew despite her devastation that her manager would help her figure out how to move forward. - Leanne was told she had to lay off her entire team and would then be laid off as well. + Nick thinks there are 2 sides to the coin. We want to have a great relationship with our manager so that we don’t immediately think the worst when we get a call, but each person has their own level of trauma / PTSD they bring to the situation that they also have to fight. + John thinks this might be a cultural shift. Thirty years ago, telephones were the way people communicated, and getting a phone call was not a traumatic thing. Even today, when John’s family members call him instead of sending a text, he gets a spike in adrenaline and thinks something might be wrong. - Maybe if managers are trying to establish a rhythm of calling people to check in, they can send a quick message ahead of time to let the person know the purpose of the call. - Once the pattern of check-in calls is established as normal process, each call is less of a triggering event. - Leanne agrees and emphasizes the need for absolute clarity. - “Everything’s good. Nothing is wrong. I’m just going to give you a call at this time to check in.” – Leanne Elliott, an example of being very clear about a phone call to a direct report - Leanne says she heard about a manager who told their employees they would be receiving a call regularly from the manager just to check in (i.e. every Tuesday at 2 PM, etc.). - A manager can also let the first 5-10 minutes of a team call be informal conversations. It shows that this is part of the team culture and way of working. + “Why shouldn’t you be the manager who just does things differently?” – Al Elliott - Being the manager who does things differently is ok. You will develop a reputation within the company for operating that way and doing check-ins. It only takes a few phone calls to put people at ease about the process. - Leanne says the calls have to be made with some intention. It’s not just asking people if everything is alright. Consider using more coaching type questions. - “It’s almost digging in a little bit more and finding a specific thing to talk about which every good manager does anyway in terms of giving any type of feedback. It’ll be very specific and rooted context. It’s the same for these causal phone calls. If you’ve got something rooted in context, it’s going to help that conversation flow. It’s going to start to breed that…psychological safety that so people will actually feel they are able authentically open up…. It needs to be, ‘I’m going to phone you. We’re going to have a conversation because I’m generally interested in how you’re doing, what’s going on in your work world, and if appropriate, beyond that.” – Leanne Elliott
36:03 – Management and Coaching* As a result of the above, Nick thinks managers should be good at interviewing people beyond job interviews to begin and continue good conversations. Is this a skill a job candidate should highlight if they want to be a people manager? + Some people have fallen into communicating that they are a manager and therefore very important because they got a promotion at work. It’s partially what they have seen others do. + “They just think that’s what being a manager is because they’ve seen the loud mouths who have been managers before and are really important people who run around with papers in their hand. And they don’t know that being a manager is almost the opposite. It’s being quiet, not loud.” – Al Elliott + Leanne thinks it’s probably less interviewing and more about asking coaching questions. It’s about asking questions that are generally inquisitive or help someone though a thought process / something that is troubling them. + If you want to be a manager, look at skills embedded in coaching like listening skills. A listening skills course or a coaching course could be highly beneficial to anyone. - Coaching courses can be transformative in terms of emotional intelligence, self-awareness, engaging and interacting with other people without agenda or judgement. - “That’s what I’d say is to highlight those skills – your curiosity, your ability to coach, your ability to listen. I would snap up anyone, even if they had no experience at all. I would snap up anyone with those skills into a management role.” – Leanne Elliott, on the skills of a manager
Mentioned in the Outro* If you’re a manager listening to this who is not getting trained, you can find that training outside your company in the form of books, podcasts, seminars, and formal training courses. In fact, Leanne recommends courses on coaching or active listening. + Remember also that it’s ok to be a manager who does things differently to make an impact. * If you want more resources for dealing with uncertainty, remember to visit these pages: + Our Layoff Resources Page with the most impactful discussions on the topic of layoffs with experts like Leanne Elliott and technologists not so different from you. + Our Career Uncertainty Action Guide with the 5 pillars of career resilience and AI prompts to help you work through overwhelm, financial planning, and a layoff scenario + Remember to subscribe to Truth, Lies and Work
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Imagine getting 45 minutes to describe and defend the quantifiable impact of your body of work as an individual contributor accumulated over multiple years. It’s your job to convince a panel that you have what it takes to help solve the company’s biggest problems. Could you do it?
Our guest Daniel Paluszek has done it successfully at 2 different technology companies to become a Global Field Principal. Much of his success in these roles is attributed to a “culmination of exposure” over the course of his career and the support of both family and managers. This week in episode 339, we begin with the story of Daniel’s move to a hypergrowth startup and learn what it was like to run his own business as the company grew and changed. When an unexpected opportunity to join VMware arose, Daniel transferred his learnings to focus on business growth for service provider partners.
We also talk about the reasons Daniel pursued the role of Global Field Principal, the responsibilities of that role, and why he continues to find it interesting. After listening to this episode, we might all think differently about the importance of building a body of work. Have you been building yours? It’s not too late to begin or keep going.
Original Recording Date: 06-11-2025
Daniel Paluszek is a Principal Partner Technology Strategist at ServiceNow. If you missed parts 1 or 2 of our discussion with Daniel, check out Episode 337 – Finding Drive: The Parallels of Mentoring and Technology Partnerships with Daniel Paluszek (1/3) and Episode 338 – Steady Build: Broadening Exposure and the Priceless Perspective of People Management with Daniel Paluszek (2/3)
Topics – Leaping into Hypergrowth, A Culmination of Exposure, Pursuit of Principal and the Responsibility of Execution3:06 – Leaping into Hypergrowth* What did the next job transition over to SimpliVity look like? It seemed like this was a conscious move toward an up-and-coming startup and a new technology wave at the same time. + Daniel says it was a conscious choice to move to Simplivity. + While Cisco was somewhere that felt like home, Daniel was given the opportunity to join Simplivity when it was a startup. - The industry was moving from 3-tier architectures with virtualization to hyperconvergence (a convergence of storage, compute, and networking in a single form factor that scaled out linearly). It was an exciting time for the industry as a whole, especially for virtualization. + Daniel knew some of the people who had joined Simplivity. - “I’ve never done a startup before, a hypergrowth company…. There were about 100-150 people when I joined. In that first year, I think we tripled the company in size…. It was something that was just an incredible experience.” – Daniel Paluszek - Daniel was a pre-sales Solution Architect at SimpliVity working with both customers and partners in the southeast United States (Floride and Alabama). + At Simplivity Daniel learned the skill of building your own business. - He and his sales rep (also a great mentor to him) worked as one logical unit partnered together to build business. They were aligned on the priorities and focus areas. + “Sometimes you have to take that leap of faith and try something that’s completely unknown. I was leaving a tried-and-true company…Cisco Systems is an incredible company…going to a startup that I had no idea where this was going to go…. Why wouldn’t I do this? There’s nothing but upside to try this and get the experience of a startup. And so, that’s what I did.” – Daniel Paluszek - Daniel calls his time at Simplivity some of the most impactful years of his career. It felt like Daniel was able to fit the same amount of learning from Cisco (5 years) into 2 years at Simplivity. - Daniel had to learn many functions we might think of as being outside the role of pre-sales like marketing (running campaigns, planning customer events, etc.). There wasn’t a lot of field awareness of what hyperconvergence was, so part of the job was taking time to educate customers and partners. - “So, every day was about how do we not only simplify the messaging but focus on the business problems, the challenges, and how we’re directly solving those for all industries and customers. And we had to wear all these different hats.” – Daniel Paluszek - “If there was any nugget of wisdom…everybody should do an up and coming fast growth company and just understand all the different roles needed and working together on building something…building a company.” – Daniel Paluszek - Daniel worked on a small team and built incredible, lasting relationships with others along the path of building something extraordinary and special. He really enjoyed the period of time before SimpliVity was acquired by HPE – a great time with great people and great technology. * While a role we take may change over time as a company changes, hypergrowth startups can change quickly. For example, a role may not look the same in 3-6 months. What are some of the other ways Daniel’s role changed as the startup grew that he did not expect? + Daniel says you had to learn adaptability very quickly. + When the company is in hypergrowth mode, you do what it takes to get things accomplished even if it seems outside of your specific role (support, product management, etc.). This requires people who will collaborate well to execute on the overall goal. As a company grows, its internal organizations grow too, and you begin to have dedicated people to perform specific roles / job functions. + “The one thing that wasn’t evident to me coming from a large manufacturer / vendor was you had to do everything under the sun, and you had to wear 27 different hats. I was willing to do that…. In the early stages, my sales rep and I were doing all of that, and as the company grew, we had pre-defined people. We had a marketing person, and we had a sales development representative….” – Daniel Paluszek, describing life inside a hypergrowth startup + Running your own business in this case meant hosting marketing events. That involved getting funding, coordinating with a restaurant / venue to build a menu, track event registrations, coordinating speakers for the event, and tracking follow up conversations with event attendees based on interest in the topic and products. + “Sometimes you’ve just gotta do things that you may not like that are just part of getting the job done right and getting it done successfully in the interest of your company and your end customer. And sometimes you just have to get it done. I think there’s a delicate balance. In large organizations, we have clearly defined roles and responsibilities. Sometimes you’ve just gotta break that glass and figure it out after the fact, but if you’re doing in the best interest of your customers and your organization, I’ve never seen anything negative come out of that because you’re serving and bringing value to your stake holders at the end of the day.” – Daniel Paluszek * From what Nick sees, Daniel has a pattern of trying new things to gain experience and learn when he feels it is something that will make him better, even if he’s not sure how it will make him better at the time. Then that post-processing Daniel has inside him will kick in so he can use the experience later.
12:17 – A Culmination of Exposure* Did Daniel decide to move on from startup life because he was tired of it, or was it because of a new opportunity? + Daniel’s career had been shaped by VMware from a young age to this point in time, and he was given the opportunity to work there. But this was not something he planned. + When HPE (HP Enterprise) announced their intent to acquire SimpliVity, Daniel had intended to stay and see what happened. A friend from Cisco mentioned to Daniel that the VMware partner group was looking for technical pre-sales engineers, and this friend thought Daniel would be a good fit. - “Two weeks later I accepted an offer from VMware in the partner group…. I went with my gut, and I said, ‘I’m going to take this offer…and see where it goes.’” – Daniel Paluszek, after being open to an unexpected opportunity - Daniel was leaving right around the time the HPE acquisition of SimpliVity was closing. Choosing to take the role at VMware was a very difficult decision. The hiring manager at VMware encouraged Daniel to do what was best for him and his family. + To this point, Daniel had accumulated a wide range of experience: - Working with VMware technology as a customer - His professional services background - The focus at Cisco on the datacenter and building cloud architectures - Being a part of SimpliVity and focusing on hyperconvergence + “I just had this culmination of exposure and depth of experience that I was able to utilize in a role core to what I had built in the past.” – Daniel Paluszek * Daniel tells us he worked for VMware for about 5-6 years focusing on service provider partners and eventually became a field principal architect. + Daniel and his team members supported global cloud providers that were providing infrastructure or platform as service to their customers based on VMware architectures. + Daniel worked to make these cloud providers successful with architectures that supported either a shared multi-tenant cloud or dedicated private cloud environment. * During this time Daniel found an appetite for blogging. The VMware technical community was very active in this area, and it was interesting to Daniel. + Once Daniel began writing blogs, he realized it could be used as a medium to answer some of the questions multiple cloud providers were asking. Through blogging, Daniel could break down new complex topics into digestible material. + Daniel was writing for his own personal blog and also for the VMware corporate blog and accumulated 100-150 blog articles across both sites by the time he left VMware. - Daniel eventually took down his blog site because the content was so outdated. + Daniel also recorded lightboard video presentations to explain different concepts cloud providers were seeking out during that time. + “It was another medium where I could articulate a message and really help the community on growing the VMware solutions.” – Daniel Paluszek, on decreasing the friction to growth of VMware solutions through field awareness and education + Daniel worked in a business unit that had technical marketing and product management personnel. Daniel’s creating the content helped the overall business unit make a greater impact, and it created a collaborative, cross-functional team. - “If you can collaborate and work together effectively on a clear and single mission, you can accomplish anything. And I thought we did an incredible job supporting our cloud providers and partners.” – Daniel Paluszek
18:25 – Pursuit of Principal and the Responsibility of Execution* John mentioned the field principal title has come up a couple of different times in previous guest interviews. What does this title really mean, and what led up to Daniel’s decision to pursue that title? + Daniel cites being part of the CTO Ambassador program during his time at VMware. Specific engineers and architects who were part of this program throughout the company would work closely with the Office of the CTO. + This group was a collaborative forum for a couple of things: - Working on special projects and initiatives - Providing feedback to product leaders and the research and development teams around industry trends, value to customers, and much more + At VMware, field principal was one job level above the senior staff level. The field principal title was a designation of global contribution and impact to others both inside and outside the company beyond the normal customers or partners you served. - The path to principal for Daniel was through his value differentiated work at a partner and then supporting partners for many years. He was passionate about supporting partners in a way that had not previously been done and wanted to go through the field principal program. - The principal program had an intake process to submit your accomplishments along with letters of recommendations. This was reviewed by a board who determined if you met the requirements to do a panel defense. - The process is analogous to a VCDX (VMware Certified Design Expert) which was part test and a panel defense. - The field principal defense was about showcasing quantitative and qualitative metrics of your impact, but it was also about how you presented a body of work containing what you have contributed and what you will continue to contribute in the future. - “You had 45 minutes to present in front of a live panel…and it was a hard stop. And if you didn’t complete it, they could not grade you completely, or you would have missed the mark…. Your presentation and everything that you show in your body of work had to be represented in an executive format…. How do you represent everything in less than 45 minutes? …It’s a lot harder than you anticipate.” – Daniel Paluszek - For Daniel, this was also a test of his presentation skills. - Some thought Daniel might not achieve principal because of a short tenure at the company, but that only drove him to succeed. * Are the skills needed for the panel defense similar to those that one would need to speak to an audience of executives and hold their attention? + Though Daniel never got a VCDX, he speaks to the importance for a solution architect to understand the functional and nonfunctional requirements, assumptions, risks, and constraints. The field principal methodology followed the same patterns and system methods as the VCDX. + Daniel says he left the experience with a greater awareness of the formal methodology he had learned through real-world experience. * What would Daniel tell someone they should consider before pursuing a principal role? + “Are you ready to have that responsibility, and are you willing to lead the biggest problems and challenges in the organization, internally and externally? …People are going to seek you out to solve these problems that others could not.” – Daniel Paluszek, on the role of a principal + Danial was not a principal when he joined ServiceNow and had to go through their process to achieve principal. It was somewhat similar to what he experienced at VMware. + If you sign up for the responsibility of being a principal, you have to go execute. Daniel says a principal is setting the tone and narrative for the rest of the organization. It’s about setting an example for others while you execute. + Though the principal is focused on solving the company’s biggest problems, you may be working on this in addition to your daily responsibilities. Are you willing to put in the extra time required to do it?“You have to have the passion and the desire to solve these big problems…beyond your day job to really make that impact on a global scale.” – Daniel Paluszek * How do you decide where to focus your time when juggling extra responsibilities and your day-to-day responsibilities? + Daniel says it often means you are working nights and weekends. + If you have a customer-facing responsibility, your customers should come first. Daniel made sure this was his mindset across both companies where he’s been a principal. + “You have to serve your customers and your organization first, and the other priorities come second. It was all about, for me, time management and time efficiency and managing hour by hour.” – Daniel Paluszek + It’s also important to have a discussion with your family about this being something you want to do. Keep up constant communication on this front. Daniel cites support from his family as a very important part of the equation that has made him successful. - Listen to the schedule Daniel normally works and the intentional focus on having blocks of time for his family. - One could approach this as a short-term deficit for a longer-term benefit. + On the professional side, you need the support of management and leadership to be successful in your normal responsibilities and the additional responsibilities of being a principal. + Daniel considers himself fortunate on both fronts to have support personal and professional. + Nick highlights the fact that leadership has to sign off on / approve members of their team being promoted to principal and spending a set amount of time on projects above and beyond their normal work. * What keeps the role of a principal exciting now that Daniel has done it at multiple companies? + Daniel gets excited about working on the problems others have not yet been able to solve. + “Many times, I don’t have a clear path to execution. I’ve gotta go figure that out, and…I gotta build a cross-functional team. And I have to look at different perspectives and what we’re trying to solve. But building that methodology and working with like-minded individuals that are scrappy, have grit, that desire to build something great just drives me. I like people that are willing to…roll up their sleeves and get stuff done in the interest of our customers and partners. And I think that’s what motivates me on a daily basis. There’s problems anywhere you look or challenges. Let’s go solve them. Let’s go conquer them.” – Daniel Paluszek + Daniel considers every experience a blessing. Every experience is something you can build on to make yourself a better professional.
Mentioned in the Outro* Did you catch the field awareness theme? Daniel had to educate potential customers and partners on SImpliVity’s solutions when he worked for them during the hypergrowth phase. This field awareness took on its next iteration when Daniel moved to VMware. All of the blogs and lightboard videos were creating field awareness for the community of cloud provider partners he served at the time and helped the business unit he worked for scale. + There’s an element of field awareness when we speak about the principal title. Other people have some understanding / awareness of the fact that these people get pulled in to solve some of the largest problems a company has or its customers and partners have. * It’s worth distinguishing the way in which principal is applied to different roles across different customers. + Daniel as well as many others fall into the category of field facing resources (i.e., Global Field Principal). They serve a specific set of customers or partners (entities outside of the company at which they work) as part of their role. It could be someone who is an individual contributor in technical pre-sales, professional services, or even technical support. + For guests like Ken Collins or Max Kanat-Alexander, they were principal engineers, and their focus was software engineering and was likely more of an internal facing role. They still help the organization solve problems but might not be field facing. Check out their episodes for reference: - Episode 241 – A Self-Taught Programmer’s Banyan Tree of Knowledge with Ken Collins (1/2) - Episode 242 – Modalities of the Staff and Principal Engineer with Ken Collins (2/2) - Episode 285 – Contribute Back: Embracing the Open Source Spirit with Max Kanat-Alexander (1/3) - Episode 286 – Succession Planning: Delegation Skills and Technical Ownership with Max Kanat-Alexander (2/3) - Episode 287 – Scope Creep: Evaluating Impact in Career Decisions as a Principal Engineer with Max Kanat-Alexander (3/3) * For some episodes that provide another perspective on the hypergrowth startup, check out these with guest Andrew Miller. We also talk to him about the principal title, and in his case it is field facing like Daniel. + Episode 166 – Management and the Hypergrowth Startup with Andrew Miller (2/3) + Episode 167 – Pause and Step Outside with Andrew Miller (3/3) * If you’re someone who has recently discovered our show or this episode, Nick would love to chat with you 1-1 (how you found us, what you were looking for, and what it made it interesting). We want to ensure our show is discoverable and findable by technology professionals who are looking to learn from the stories we’ve shared on the show. + Send Nick a DM on LinkedIn or e-mail us at the address below to schedule a chat!
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Could a greater understanding of what people managers do make you a better individual contributor? And would it also cause you to treat your manager differently?
For Daniel Paluszek, our guest this week in episode 338, it definitely did. And though this was a short stint in Daniel’s career, he refers to that experience as priceless. This week in part 2 of the story you’ll hear about Daniel’s experience working in professional services both in pre-sales and post-sales and how he built expertise to help increasingly larger customers over time. Daniel will reflect on the lessons learned from his time as a people leader, and pay special attention to the moment when Daniel turns the microphone on John during our discussion!
We also explore the reasons why Daniel eventually chose to move back to the individual contributor side of the house. How do you think your mindset would be different when making a move like this? Listen to the full story from Daniel’s perspective.
Original Recording Date: 06-11-2025
Daniel Paluszek is a Principal Partner Technology Strategist at ServiceNow. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Daniel, check out Episode 337 – Finding Drive: The Parallels of Mentoring and Technology Partnerships with Daniel Paluszek (1/3)
Topics – The Nuances of Professional Services, Getting to Know Service Providers, Becoming a Practice Manager, Difficult Conversations, Returning to Individual Contributor2:46 – The Nuances of Professional Services* It seems like Daniel would have been able to bring some of the government work he had done into conversations to help build credibility and relationships. + Doing federal defense contracting is certainly different but provides a level of expertise that cascades to any government organization. + When Daniel joined the partner, most of the conversations were about getting into virtualization, and the projects focused on consolidating infrastructure. Daniel had direct exposure and expertise in designing and orchestrating these kinds of projects from start to finish (design, build, migration, providing a day 2 runbook). + Daniel had the technical expertise he needed but did not at first have the sales and consultative skills he needed. Daniel had help from mentors (his sales rep, his leadership chain, other colleagues on the professional services team) to improve in this area. * Daniel would later join Cisco Systems doing professional services. This was around the time they launched the UCS computing platform. He had worked in in professional services for DynTek for a couple of years previous to making the move. + Working in professional services granted opportunities to work with many customers across multiple industries. Daniel calls gaining this experience getting “at bats.” + Working within a large professional services organization can also be challenging. - Usually, the person who creates the scope of work for a services engagement is not the same person who will execute the statement of work. - Something could have been scoped incorrectly or improper expectations set, for example. Daniel tells us part of the role was about overcoming these types of challenges and mitigating risks. - “You had to work through these situations and challenges on an ongoing basis…. Not only make your customer happy (do what’s right) but also make your organization healthy from a profit and loss perspective because…companies and PS organizations, their largest cost factor is people….” – Daniel Paluszek, on life working in professional services - Daniel tells us that a professional services organization has to balance executing well for customers with remaining profitable. * Before Daniel joined Cisco, was he 100% pre-sales or doing a mix of pre-sales and post-sales? + Daniel says it was a mix of both and refers to it as a hybrid role. He was brought in at DynTek as a professional services engineer but began getting exposed to the pre-sales side of things. In fact, Daniel wanted to learn more about pre-sales. + Over time, Daniel began scoping professional services engagements and presenting to customers followed by later delivering the work (i.e., "wearing both hats). + Nick stresses the importance of determining whether roles are post-sales, pre-sales, or both to ensure you fully understand. Ask these questions in interviews so everything is clear! Maybe doing both can help one decide which area is more interesting. + “I also think that doing both and then doing professional services delivery for many years also shaped me into the individual I am today because I had to live and go through delivery of projects…. When I scoped it…I knew that this is something to watch out for from a field-level direct exposure perspective. So, I knew the nuances to my area of expertise, my domain, and I was able to scope it in a way that ensured success and mitigated that risk just because I had that direct experience.” – Daniel Paluszek + Processes like the one described above will not scale for large organizations. Sometimes a large organization will give people the chance to move from delivery to pre-sales to round out their experience. Daniel was fortunate to have the chance to do both and gain exposure to different areas. + John mentioned there is usually another level of separation and complexity in these scenarios. He highlights 3 distinct roles – someone selling a solution that includes professional services, someone who scopes the professional services, and someone who executes the professional services. John has seen this divided even further and mentions sometimes there is a special professional services workshop that helps provide the inputs to the person writing the statement of work. + “Again, if we’re talking about roles and educating people about roles, the number of different types of roles that are out there just continues to amaze me. Going to school, I have no idea how you would know any of these roles existed.” – John White + Daniel says for multi-pillar transformations within large enterprises, it can require subject matter experts (SMEs), architects, and engagement managers to make a professional services project successful. + When Daniel began working in consulting / professional services, he started working with smaller companies. It was the move to working for Cisco that helped him gain experience working with large enterprises and service providers. - Daniel speaks to the complexities of delivering engagements for these organizations. He might have to design an engagement that required dozens or hundreds of people over a multi-year period. - Starting off small helped Daniel focus on understanding the fundamentals, and he was able to build upon that through varying experiences with larger customers across different industries over time.
11:20 – Getting to Know Service Providers* What is a service provider? Let’s define that term. + We’re talking about a company that provides a service like a cable provider, for example. They might be considered a traditional service provider. - Cable providers offer telecommunications services to end users / consumers. - But a cable provider can deliver services to a business too. + If we’re talking about the business-to-business market, a service provider (could also be called a managed service provider) is providing a discrete service injected into a customer’s business. That service is a function of a customer’s overall organization. + Daniel gives some examples - Business Process Outsourcing (or BPO). This could include processing accounts payable or accounts receivable transactions. - An MSP (Managed Service Provider) providing service desk operations for an end customer + A service provider can help a customer scale their business. Daniel gives the example of a retail customer. - Retail companies exist to sell products and goods. This is their core business – driving incremental sales of products. Anything else required to operate that business, according to Daniel, is context. - In the retail example, management of back-end IT systems, management of the service desk, or management of finances and supply chain would be considered context. In some cases, companies like this will partner with a service provider (or GSI / Global Systems Integrator) to assist in these areas. - “It ultimately comes down to…what is your core business, and what’s your context? And…is this something we want to staff and skill in-house, or do we want to partner with somebody that’s going to provide this as a service to us?” – Daniel Paluszek + Nick mentions there is usually someone in-house tasked with working closely with service providers to ensure business operations run smoothly. - Daniel says there is always an interface on the customer side, and in very large companies, it’s usually a small team which will manage the line of business in question and work closely with the partner / service provider executing much of this function. The team on the customer side would work closely with business leaders to ensure everything aligns with the business strategy. * Nick liked Daniel’s description of his progression of experience from small customers up to large companies like service providers. There is an increased need for availability and resiliency as we get into talking about service providers who may have systems accessed by end customers and not just internal employees of the service provider. + During Daniel’s tenure at Cisco, service providers spanned telecommunications, media, and technology partners. + Daniel worked with many telecommunications providers and says it was incredible to learn about all the systems required to deliver a cell phone, for example, and the network functions that were part of it. + When Daniel was working with telecommunications providers, Network Function Virtualization or NFV was the next emerging technology which extended the benefits of virtualization to help service providers in the telecommunications space provide better services to their customers.
16:12 – Becoming a Practice Manager* Did Daniel go fully into pre-sales at Cisco even though he was focused on professional services? + Daniel started off as a delivery engineer in the datacenter and cloud group but soon became a practice manager. During this first experience as a people leader, Daniel managed about 14 people. + “It was an interesting and incredible experience…. When you get into people leadership, that’s a totally different approach and perspective.” – Daniel Paluszek + Daniel had to focus on the people he managed as a first priority. That was a mindset shift. It was about supporting his people’s success by ensuring they had the necessary tools to execute. + Another element of the role for Daniel was communicating things like status and current challenges to his own leadership. + Daniel was a practice manager (i.e., people leader) for a little while before moving to pre-sales inside the datacenter and cloud group. * What was it like to go full-time into a more focused pre-sales role and make the transition from people manager back to individual contributor? + “You have to have the right mindset to manage and lead individuals from all different backgrounds and experiences and also realize that everybody operates differently. And I think, at that time, I don’t know if I was fully ready for that position…. But it was something that gave me a different perspective, which was priceless, on managing people and also providing a view into people leadership that I never had before. We will all work for managers, and sometimes we take for granted. It gave me a unique exposure into what our managers deal with and how a corporate hierarchy works within a large organization….” – Daniel Paluszek, on people leadership + Daniel was asked to take the practice manager role while still young in his career. He did well and kept in touch with the people he managed. + Daniel feels he may be self-critical of his time leading people, but he learned a great deal from it. + Daniel really aspired to work in pre-sales as a solution architect and would eventually make the move away from people management to this type of work. + John thinks many people do not realize that the move to people management requires a pretty drastic career change, even if you manage a team on which you once worked. - “Your job is no longer doing the work. It’s managing the people.” – John White - When people aspire to be a manager or higher-level leader of some kind, they are often looking at it only through the lens of the individual contributor and not truly understanding the role of manager is quite different. - “Management and people leadership is a diametric difference, especially for technology professionals. When you get into management, you almost have to let go of the technology reins because that’s not your job anymore. And I think personally at that time, I wasn’t ready to let go of that. I think that was part of my challenge internally that I struggled with…. For you to become a successful people leader, you have to let go of the technology and having that skill because that’s not your job anymore…. I was presented that opportunity, and I took it, did the best to my abilities…and I said it’s ok to say, ‘this isn’t for me right now.’ It’s not saying the door is closed. I just don’t feel like I was ready personally for that role at that time.” – Daniel Paluszek - Daniel’s mindset is quite different now than it was then, having learned much since then. * After being in the management seat, John feels like he understands better now how to be a great individual contributor. Did Daniel’s stint as a manager make him a better individual contributor since he understood what managers were measuring? + Daniel says yes and that he was naïve in the past regarding what his managers experienced. He is extremely grateful for the opportunity to experience the role of manager. + “Putting yourself in that role, you realize very quickly, it’s sink or swim…. I took away from that experience having a level of empathy for every manager I’ve ever worked with since then. You just take it for granted because you’ve never seen it before…. It just gives you a totally different mindset. I just don’t think individual contributors understand that and realize that until they’re in those shoes…. There are things that you’re just not aware of, and until you experience it firsthand, you’re not going to see it.” – Daniel Paluszek + John says often times our managers are on vacation or are on leave, and there is a chance for members of the team to fill in during these times. Even for those who have no aspirations to be a manager and just want to be the best individual contributor possible, filling in for your manager temporarily can make every employee better. + Daniel says becoming a team lead can also help your manager, especially when it comes to developing others on the team. He initially thought his path to career progression was to become a manager and keep moving up. + “I realized you don’t have to be a manager to help others. It doesn’t matter if they’re on your team or not. Mentoring and guidance crosses any logical boundary. It doesn’t matter where you live, what company you work with. Helping others…with their journey and their success…you can do that…. You don’t have to be a manager or a people leader for that. You can just be a good professional that helps others.” – Daniel Paluszek + Daniel reminds us how much he enjoys helping / mentoring others on their personal and professional development journeys. In management, you’re supposed to do this along with all the administrative functions. Providing your objective perspective can be a great help to others. We don’t have to manage people to help people. + John mentions managers might need help with the administrative overhead of the role. It’s hard to send updates on status to your management if members of the team haven’t made updates to specific systems on time, for example.
26:15 – Difficult Conversations* When he was a manager, Daniel had to handle situations where people were not meeting their core job responsibilities. It was a learning experience and required having some very tough conversations with individuals on the team. Daniel asks John for his words of wisdom when handling these difficult conversations. + John says a good way to prepare for this is by working on cross functional teams where you don’t have managerial or role power over someone but need to hold them accountable for completing specific work to help the overall team. - Before becoming a manager, John was an account sales engineer. He would work with partner sales engineers, specialist overlays, technical account managers, and others on a specific campaign / set of activities. It fell to John as the core account sales engineer to be the project manager of these activities. - “I think that it’s really good practice to have those kinds of conversations before you become a manager. I don’t think that it’s good to have that be part of your core job without ever having done it before.” – John White - In the cross functional team example, we might be dependent on someone else doing something in order to complete our own work. You don’t have real power over the person who needs to be held accountable other than the power of persuasion. It’s about cultivating that influence. + Once you are in a people management role, it’s important to establish clarity of job expectations. - Job descriptions being written does NOT mean people have internalized them. Often times these descriptions are very broad and not well maintained. - The manager can reiterate the deadlines for completing essential tasks for a person’s role and the expectations for quality. It will eventually need to be put in writing. - It is essential to build relationships with the people on your team so they know the context in which things are coming to them. + Do people have the tools to accomplish the tasks which are expected of them? If they don’t, just like in the case of lacking clarity, you will not be able to hold them accountable effectively. - John suggests thinking about this from cause to effect. + John references The Talent Code and its mention of John Wooden’s coaching method to focus on the difference between what good looks like and what a person was doing. + Daniel remembers some challenging situations as a manager and needing to have some very uncomfortable conversations. He calls it a raw learning experience. - We as individual contributors do not always understand what our managers go through on a daily basis. Daniel advises us to treat our managers well. + John recommends the book Crucial Conversations to learn how to have the difficult conversations. It isn’t just managers that have difficult conversations. All of us do! - The ability to have difficult conversations is a skill. John says we don’t want to be novices at this skill when it’s an important time to have a conversation.
32:46 – Returning to Individual Contributor* How much of Daniel’s management experience was he asked to discuss in interviews for the individual contributor role in pre-sales? Is it a strike against you when you try to move back to the individual contributor’s path? + The team Daniel managed did professional services delivery. They sat in the same organization as the pre-sales personnel focused on selling professional services, and Daniel had expertise in delivery and pre-sales. + Daniel thinks there was probably a question about why he wanted to move to pre-sales but doesn’t feel like his management experience was looked upon in a negative light. + “I wanted to get closer to the customer and closer to the solutions and technology, and that was my passion at that time…. If you’re a manager for many years going back to IC, I can see just like any other skill it does degrade over time. But, you know, in the industry I’ve seen people move from management to IC, IC back to management. I think if you have the right qualities, the ability to take on those responsibilities, and ensure you have the right frame of mind, especially when you transition from IC to manager…. I think it rounds out an individual and a professional, from my perspective.” – Daniel Paluszek + Looking back, if asked to do it again, Daniel would still have taken the role in people leadership. He gained a level of understanding that one can only get by performing the responsibilities of a manager. It made Daniel a better leader. + The cross functional leader (an individual contributor) has to create a collaborative team and ensure accountability while still needing to have those difficult conversations to hold people accountable. + “Every career journey ebbs and flows, so I think everybody has a varied path on how they experience these things.” – Daniel Paluszek + Nick thinks Daniel’s experience as a people leader was transferrable. - He gained a measure of empathy that was transferred to co-workers and customers. - In pre-sales, we often work with people at different levels within an organization. Daniel has a perspective from his experience as a people leader that helps him better relate to the leaders he works with consistently (in his customers or elsewhere inside the same company).
Mentioned in the Outro* There was a theme of scaling one’s experience in that discussion…a slow build. + Daniel didn’t start out understanding how to work with service providers. It took those “at bats” he described. These were opportunities to work with different customers in organizations of different sizes. Each of them had slightly different challenges and unique needs for specific technology solutions. There were nuances to scoping professional services engagements across many different customer environments. + One way to build expertise even if we want to do the same job is to scale our experience by working across different industries and environments or even supporting different business units inside our own company. * What if we took John’s advice and volunteered to fill in for our manager sometime even if we never want to be a manager one day? + We can approach this with the intent to learn and understand, and it can make us better individual contributors. + It’s a chance to communicate with skip-level leaders and learn how to better communicate with them. + It’s a chance to gain empathy for those in leadership. + Debrief with your manager on how the experience goes if you decide to do it. The full context of those situations might help you learn a lot about your company and management chain. * Daniel learned a lot about empathy as a people manager. One of Nick’s favorite episodes discussing empathy is Episode 278 – Uncovering Empathy: The Greatest Skill of an Inclusive Leader with Marni Coffey (1/3). + How can you be more empathetic?
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
How does one company form an effective technology partnership with another company? Our guest this week might tell you it’s not so different than a successful mentoring relationship. It requires alignment on the outcomes both parties want to achieve.
Daniel Paluszek is a Principal Partner Technology Strategist at ServiceNow, and in episode 337 he helps us set some context on technology partnerships and go-to-market strategies before we discuss his personal journey to working in technology. We’ll follow Daniel through early experience working at a university help desk, learn about how he grew in scope and responsibility working for a defense contractor, understand why he later chose to move into a consulting role, and wrap the entire discussion with advice on mentoring and the importance of effective communication.
Original Recording Date: 06-11-2025
Topics – Meet Daniel Paluszek, What Makes a Technology Partner Best of Breed, Tech Origin Story, Mentorship and Lessons in Developing Others, Communication through Presentations, A Step Toward Consulting2:12 – Meet Daniel Paluszek* Daniel Paluszek is a Principal Partner Technology Strategist at ServiceNow. + He is part of a solution consulting team supporting ServiceNow’s global strategic partners. Daniel and his peers work to optimize the way in which ServiceNow and its global partners go to market together to solve customer business problems and build solutions that drive business transformation. + On a daily basis, Daniel looks at the following: - Where is the industry moving? - What technology is ServiceNow developing that can apply to industry challenges? - What are the customer pain points, and how can a joint strategy be developed to solve these? + Daniel consistently thinks about how to solve problems, and it may not be something technical that solves a problem. - ServiceNow has evolved from an IT ticketing platform to a work platform, and many of the things Daniel works on span beyond IT.
4:21 – What Makes a Technology Partner Best of Breed* What does it mean to be a partner to a technology company like ServiceNow? Many listeners may not understand this. + Daniel believes a partner can look at a customer from an agnostic point of view to help solve specific business or technical challenges. - Partners usually work with and have a joint strategy with several equipment manufacturers (OEMs) or ISVs (independent software vendors). These can be leveraged to provide a best of breed solution that meets a customer’s requirements. + Regardless of a partner’s experience, they should focus on solving the customer’s unique problem(s), and this means ignoring / removing the technology landscape to make sure they understand what problem needs to be solved. - Once the problem(s) are well understood, a plan and solution can be jointly developed. Solution partners can aid companies like ServiceNow in answering customer requirements. * John likes this explanation of the partner ecosystem and expected Daniel to use the word reseller, but he did not mention it. + “Resell for me is a motion, a sales motion. It is not the end all or be all. There’s some great resell partners, but in my mind, in my vision, the strongest partners are the ones that encompass the entire lifecycle…. The partners that are achieving and acquiring the new business look at it from a holistic approach…not just selling a product.” – Daniel Paluszek + Executive leaders like Bill McDermott talk about empowering businesses to increase revenue and productivity while reducing operational expense, and Daniel tells us this effort has to focus on the core problems. + A partner may also have professionals + Nick mentions being a partner may also mean the partner can do professional services for a specific technology stack tied to a hardware or software vendor. - John thinks even consulting services are in service of the greater outcomes a partner is trying to drive for an end customer. The goal would not be to sell services or specific pieces / parts but to “partner” with the customer and vendors to present a best of breed solution. - Daniel agrees and says it is about the outcomes we’re trying to produce with the solution. The best partners can understand what needs to be achieved, set expectations, and develop a plan of execution to get there. * John says we ask people what they do because one of the goals of the podcast is to expose listeners working in technology today (perhaps in IT Operations) to different types of roles in our industry across customers, tech vendors, partners, or even system integrators. In Daniel’s case, we’re talking about a role at a large technology vendor focused on a large partner and the go-to-market partnership. Can we define go-to-market? + Daniel says go-to-market is an execution path based on a channel. + Daniel’s role working with partners is how the partner positions their offerings and solutions to end customers. As part of the ServiceNow team, he would work with the partner to position the overall solution to an end customer. + Many technology vendors have 2 major routes to market, but some may only have 1 of these. - Selling products / services directly to an end customer (called selling “direct”) - Selling products / services through a partner + The DNA or type of solution we’re talking about and the industry to which the solution will be sold (i.e., retail, government, etc.) will dictate what the route to market (or go-to-market) is for a company. + Over the course of his career, Daniel has worked with large enterprises as well as state and local governments. + The direct route to market usually means the company has field selling teams that work with end customers. This can coincide with partners who work hand in hand with these field teams. + John says there are likely different go-to-market plans within a technology vendor for different types of partners but that these plans will need to be customized to a specific partner based on factors like industry expertise, the way they build relationships with customers, etc. - Daniel says when it comes to global systems integrators as an example, there are normally dedicated teams to serve an industry who know the industry well (its nuances, the common themes and solutions, etc.). Daniel gives an example of the retail industry and some of the nuances around point of sale, visibility, onboarding employees and making them productive despite attrition, etc. - Partners with industry expertise can share how they have solved problems within that industry and how they address the common themes and challenges within that industry. - Nick says there is probably a specific way in which company leaders at technology vendors would identify only those partners it makes sense for them to work with based on specific solutions or industry expertise. Partners have to be qualified and identified before a joint go-to-market can be developed. - Companies like ServiceNow have online tools to help end customers find partners with specific experience (i.e. capabilities, outcomes delivered, certifications, industries of focus, regional presence or focus). Check out the ServiceNow Partner Finder as an example. Daniel looks for partner success stories in which a partner accelerated or de-risked an outcome. - Due diligence is required when building a solution for our customer (i.e. the right solution for the right people at the right time), and part of this is ensuring the right partner with the right expertise is involved.
15:59 – Tech Origin Story* Daniel says he grew up in technology. His father was a programmer at Bell Labs and worked at also Sun Microsystems. + Daniel remembers his first exposure to Linux being on a computer running Solaris. + “I was just fascinated and enamored by technology. I started off as just a kid tinkering.” – Daniel Paluszek + Daniel wanted a computer because he loved video games and obsessed over getting optimal performance. He tinkered with overclocking, for example, with a group of friends. + Daniel’s first job was in high school, and he was doing computer repairs. - Even though he might not know how to solve a problem, Daniel was determined to go figure it out, trying to eliminate variables along the path to a solution. + After determining that he wanted to work in the technology field, Daniel signed up for the computer science program and the University of Central Florida (UCF) but would find that programming did not interest him as much as solving hardware and software issues. + Daniel switched to studying Information Technology (IT) after a year in the computer science program and started working in the IT help desk for the university. + While working at the help desk at UCF, Daniel remembers posting his resume for an internship program which was open to all computer science and IT students. He tells the story of getting a call about a defense contractor (Ensco) that needed an intern. They wanted someone who was interested in systems engineering and systems administration, but Daniel would have to start in the help desk. + Daniel initially said he was not interested because of the focus on help desk. The person he spoke to said since this was a defense contractor, they could get him on some projects working with the US government, and that piqued his interest. + After interviewing, Daniel received an offer that he accepted. This began as an internship that morphed into a part-time job while he finished his IT degree. - Daniel remembers working on a defense contract for the Air Force after 1-2 years, and it was focused on Solaris administration. - The experience from Daniel’s childhood on Solaris paid off here. + Daniel also began working with VMware technology during this time (early 2000s) for server virtualization. + The Solaris administration Daniel did was in a SCIF environment. + Daniel feels like saying yes to this opportunity accelerated his exposure to a different type of technology environment and different landscape that helped him progress to where he is now. + “That was really my big…initial opportunity into systems engineering, administration, and really understanding a different purview…especially in federal government contracting.” – Daniel Paluszek * Did Daniel understand the differences in systems administration and systems engineering when he first received the call about the role at the defense contractor? + Daniel says no. He saw administration as day 2 operational patch management applied to a specific technology platform and was doing a little bit of this in the help desk role. + Daniel gained experience designing new datacenters while working for the defense contractor. One of his first projects in this role at age 19 involved designing smart power infrastructure for a datacenter. + “It was anxiety inducing. I’ll just say that, and I had to learn a lot. It was also my first foray into dealing with vendors….” – Daniel Paluszek + Daniel had to test technology from different vendors (hardware and software) as part of this project, and he had to learn about different NEMA plugs used in datacenters. + This experience helped Daniel in future roles because he understood how power and cooling worked and knew how to design a 42-unit rack. + “It wasn’t something I learned at school. That was trial by fire by experience. You were dropped into this situation. You either had to sink or swim, and you had to figure it out…. But it was my first foray into designing a solution…. And I didn’t have awareness at the time of what the methodology was. I just had to figure out how to build this and get some guidance from mentors along the way.” – Daniel Paluszek - Daniel says he had supportive managers he could use to vet ideas and suggested solutions. - In designing a solution, Daniel had to think about things from the conceptual, logical, and physical views of the solution. * If someone listening really likes the idea of being a systems designer, how much systems administration experience do they need, if any? + It’s difficult for Daniel to say someone needs to choose a specific path to be successful. + An administrator of a system is exposed to how the system performs and how it behaves (i.e. real-world experience using the system). This kind of experience and exposure helps one understand some of the constraints and challenges of system design. + “So as a designer if I don’t have the experience of how to manage this from a day 2 perspective, I think you missed part of the equation. I’m not saying a good designer has to have that experience, but I think it adds up to this formula that makes certain individuals unique because they have had that real-world experience. Not the conceptual view of it…they lived it. They breathed it. When something broke and it’s all hands on deck, they know how to actually…figure that out….” – Daniel Paluszek - Daniel reminds us that as humans we usually learn well from the times things break. So, when something does go wrong, Daniel suggests we look at those times through the lens of what we can learn and how it will make us better technologists and professionals as a result.
25:23 – Mentorship and Lessons in Developing Others* Did Daniel learn any lessons in all this about teaching people or overseeing their development? + As someone who had the chance to broaden his horizons at a young age, Daniel is a firm believer in mentoring. + “I think guiding others on their career journey and development is key for our industry because it gives everybody an opportunity to say, ‘how do I get exposed to what’s next?’ …I had somebody for some reason randomly pick me out of thin air when I worked at a help desk to provide me an opportunity, and I’m a firm believer in passing it forward….” – Daniel Paluszek + Daniel considers mentoring the next generation pf people and professionals in this industry as something that is at the heart of his personal and professional development. * How does Daniel spot people who might need some mentoring? + He looks for people who have a desire to learn and challenge themselves. + Daniel shares a story about a product manager who called him seeking to understand the perspective of a field-facing sales engineer. This person wanted to become a better product manager by understanding more about how Daniel and others in his role worked with customers on a day-to-day basis. He and Daniel developed a long-standing deep relationship as a result. + People who want to challenge themselves to be better are often seeking guidance. Daniel mentions the importance of guardrails from a mentor in these situations. + After Daniel recognizes the drive and high-performance potential in someone, he likes to take time to get to know the person and understand what they really want / what they are trying to pursue. + Daniel tells us he challenges himself daily to articulate solutions better every time he talks about them, and it’s about constantly seeking to become a better professional. * What guidance does Daniel have for the person who is asking for mentorship (i.e. the mentee)? + Daniel encourages us to communicate the context. - Be sure to communicate what you want to achieve as well as your short-term and longer-term goals / aspirations. - For those in pre-sales, are you looking to provide differentiated value in a specific industry, for example? - Do you want to become a subject matter expert? + Are you looking to gain exposure to giving presentations? - The secret, according to Daniel, is practice! - When he worked for the defense contractor, Daniel had to present his physical power infrastructure solution to a large group of people (around 100 people). He tells us it was awful despite weeks of practice. - “But I realized very quickly it just comes down to…you have to put in the time, the effort, the discipline to put yourself in a better position. I also had this naïve view that…certifications and certain qualifications were this end all be all…. That’s part of the equation. It’s about how you communicate, how you work through a dialogue, and that comes with experience. That’s priceless. You can’t purchase that. Yeah, you can have classes that teach you to become more of an eloquent speaker and articulate a message…but the proof is in the pudding when you’re in front of the customer, in front of the panel, in front of the event. I always process. What did I do really well here, and what can I improve on? Or what do I need to work on next time? So, I always have this post-processing operation for me that says, ‘these are things I need to improve on’ even to this day.” – Daniel Paluszek + When mentoring others, Daniel wants to know what the person is trying to achieve and the outcome the person wants. He also asks why people came to him specifically and what he can help with.
32:01 – Communication through Presentations* John says people often think having expertise will allow them to eloquently communicate expertise, but there’s a difference between gaining mastery of a skill and teaching someone about that skill. It seemed like Daniel realized the act of presenting was something very different. + “What I realized very quickly is I really enjoyed speaking to others about a technology and also framing it in the reference that they could understand. One of the things I learned very quickly is you need to know your audience. Who are you speaking to? Who are these individuals? …You could be a subject matter expert in this technology. You have to have the context of who you’re speaking to, who you’re trying to articulate a message to.” – Daniel Paluszek + Presenting a solution to an executive compared to someone who is more technical at a lower level in an organization is quite different. You need a different approach and must frame things in a way that the audience understands based on the context of the solution or situation at hand. + Think about why people in the audience are there. What do they want to understand or take away from what you present? Daniel stresses the importance of meeting the audience where they are / meeting them in the middle and putting things in their terms. He learned how to apply the right context within his presentations so it would be impactful to the audience. + Daniel knew after his first speaking experience that he had a lot of room to improve. But he also found it both interesting and enjoyable. + Doing presentations gave Daniel a lot of energy, especially seeing people understand complex solutions or take something away from the discussion they can apply to improve their own work. + “Even today, it’s about providing a level of understanding the audience can just take away. What are the key points that I am trying to drive towards that solve your issues and your business problems?” – Daniel Paluszek * Did Daniel get some pointed feedback after that first presentation that led him to the post-processing exercise, or did that come only through more experience? + Daniel remembers people saying he did a good job but feels they were just trying to be nice. He walked away from that experience knowing he needed to do better but at the same time really enjoyed the challenge and the impact. + This presentation happened before Daniel got into consulting and started working for partners. + “But I saw a spark. This was something that I really enjoyed…presenting and articulating a message. I just didn’t know at that time where that was going to lead me….” – Daniel Paluszek + Around the time of that first presentation, Daniel was focused on learning everything he could and soaking in new experiences. He wanted a broad view of the industry and the market as a whole from which to learn. + When new opportunities came up, Daniel would be the first to volunteer. Things he had never done were opportunities to go and learn something new and then compound past knowledge. + “The words of wisdom I could give to anybody starting off their IT career or in this industry is be the first one to raise your hand. You may not know how the heck to do it, but if you have the drive and desire, you’ll figure it out. I figured it out, and I don’t feel like I’m the smartest person…. But I feel like I have that innate drive and desire to figure it out. And I set my mind to it, and I don’t stop.” – Daniel Paluszek
37:13 – A Step Toward Consulting* Is the drive what led Daniel into consulting? Did someone else recognize it, or did he push into that on his own? + After the defense contractor, Daniel worked for a service provider (a cable provider) for a short time. + Daniel did get to go and engineer solutions that he would then get to deploy. But then he would have to maintain those solutions. The day 2 maintenance and operations became repetitive and kind of boring for Daniel. - “But I just felt like it was this same cycle over and over again….” – Daniel Paluszek, on building systems and then needing to maintain them + Despite this, Daniel did get exposure to new technologies during this time. The company was focused on virtualization and consolidation of workloads using VMware technologies. He felt virtualization as a technology trend was really going to take off and could see this capability was driving good outcomes inside his employer like simplifying the architecture, but Daniel says he didn’t realize the economic impact of using virtualization technology at that time. + Daniel had an interesting opportunity to work at a small partner in Tallahassee, Florida called DynTek Services. The role was a systems engineer for the consulting / professional services arm of the company. - “At the cable provider, I started seeing these partners come in and out and really help us with our technology…. It just seemed so fun to me…. They can come in to a customer and present a solution, work with us on deploying it, ensuring that it’s working for us”, and it really changes our paradigm. So I said, ‘I’d love to do something like that.’ Needless to say, I got this opportunity…and that started my consulting career. No prior experience…I was just an engineer at the time. I didn’t have any pre-sales experience, but I worked with a sales rep who was an incredible mentor to me." – Daniel Paluszek - Daniel says the sales rep was kind enough to “show him the ropes” once he joined DynTek. Their focus together was on state and local government. This sales rep was kind, true to his customers, and developed long-standing relationships with people when it came to solving problems. - The sales rep had built strong relationships, and when the customer needed to solve a new problem, they would seek his advice. - “He treated companies and organizations in state and local departments with respect, with honesty, in an ethical way, and always made their lives better and their organizations better. So, it was a great learning experience for me. Wow, this is incredible. I can learn and really experience the people side of it and how to have the interpersonal skills and work with dynamic situations…but also bring in technology. And it was almost like a switch turned on in my brain that said, ‘this is incredible. This is what I want to do.’ Because I felt every week it was something new. It was something dynamic. It was a new opportunity or a new customer problem came up, and we had to go solve it…. We had to orchestrate and build a solution that was compelling enough for them to say, ‘yeah, we’re going to buy off on this, and you’re going to help us go deploy this.’ …This is exactly what I was looking for that I didn’t have before.” – Daniel Paluszek, on working with a great sales rep
Mentioned in the Outro* Did you hear the parallels between mentorship and technology partnership? + If you’re seeking a mentor, you want someone with expertise in the area where you need help just like a technology company or end customer would seek a partner with the right level of expertise. + It has to be good for both parties. It’s good for the mentee because they get to develop in a specific area, and it’s good for the mentor because their experience is valued and applied in the right place. + Daniel talked about spotting individuals who had high performance potential and a specific amount of drive. This is also analogous to finding the right partner. * Mentorship is something we should all be doing to develop others and to make our industry better. + If you are seeking a mentor, be prepared to communicate why you specifically picked someone to mentor you in an area. + When Daniel mentioned guardrails as key to mentorship, we immediately thought of the discussions with Dale McKay on this topic: - Episode 288 – Guardrails for Growth: A Mentor’s Experience with Dale McKay (1/2) - Episode 289 – Enhance Your Personal Brand: Feedback as a Catalyst for Change with Dale McKay (2/2) * We heard about the importance of effective communication to different audiences in our industry in this episode as well. Many different guests have stressed a similar emphasis on communication. + Former guest Neil Thompson of Teach the Geek wrote some good articles on importance of developing strong communicators: - How Tech Leaders Can Develop Strong Communicators - Why Technical Leaders Need Strong Communicators - Neil joined us in Episode 193 – Communication for Specialists with Neil Thompson (1/2) and Episode 194 – Question Askers and Problem Solvers with Neil Thompson (2/2) if you want to go back and listen. + If you want to get better at doing presentations check out our Presentations Tag with links to episodes that discuss this topic.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Looking back on one’s career, it might be easy to connect the dots between job roles you held in the past, but what can we really do to influence where the dots are placed in the future? Srikanth Bollavaram took an approach that pulled opportunities in his direction. What if you could do the same?
This week in episode 336, we continue the discussion with Srikanth and focus on his consistent openness to taking different roles across various areas, many of which came to him at the suggestion of leaders who knew his reputation, skills, and capabilities. In the cases where a new role pushed Srikanth out of his comfort zone, personal growth and more opportunities always followed. It suited his desire to keep learning. Srikanth found over time that leadership isn’t a specific title or role. It’s a responsibility you have that could be an aspect of many roles. Srikanth also stresses the importance of defining your non-negotiables like self-care and family as a leader to help manage time constraints.
Original Recording Date: 03-30-2025
Srikanth Bollavaram is a product development leader with experience spanning the financial, railroad, and consumer packaged goods industries. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Srikanth, check out Episode 335.
Topics – Gaining Experience along the Path Less Traveled, Connecting the Dots Backwards, Leadership as a Responsibility, Time Constraints and Non-negotiables* Before we begin, did you do the homework we assigned last week? If not, we highly recommend you go back and listen to this episode before listening to part 2 of Srikanth’s story – Episode 325 – Overwhelmed by Ambiguity: DevOps, Innovation, and the Search for Clarity with Daniel Lemire (3/4).
3:18 – Gaining Experience along the Path Less Traveled* Was it normal for people who were brought in for roles like the one Srikanth had to have or be very interested in both business and technology operations and the marrying of the two? We would probably classify this type of role as operational technology today. + When Srikanth first started working for the railroad, he began working on the digitization of the customer interactions. He did not go directly to the operational side. + “First, you have to gain some credibility in whatever you do. It doesn’t matter what that work is.” – Srikanth Bollavaram + In those days, customers might call, fax, or e-mail the railroad. Srikanth’s role was to digitize all customer interactions end-to-end. This included building, tracking, tracing, payments, and more. + After working on the digitization for a couple of years, Srikanth started noticing several other interesting projects. The work on control systems he mentioned earlier was the result of the opportunities given to him over time. + “A lot of times it’s not me seeking. This is actually a very repeated pattern in my career. People identified me as a potential candidate…and then pulled me into those roles, whether it’s an architect role or even a principal engineer role…. The leaders in the company identified me as a potential candidate and just started giving me those opportunities.” – Srikanth Bollavaram + The control systems were part of a project for the railroad’s dispatch center, which orchestrated all switches, signals, and communication to locomotives. At the time Srikanth was selected for this project, it was not going very well, and it was not considered a good move to take on the role. + Srikanth tells us he likes to choose the “path less traveled” to see what happens. + “If it is interesting enough and challenging enough, you just go and try it, give your best, and see what happens. That always, at least to me…worked out well. I gained an experience which I wouldn’t have if I thought what would have been best for me rather than looking at my superiors…. They’re telling me, ‘hey, maybe you should do this.’ I probably would have chosen something in my comfort zone as an extension to my comfort zone. All these things actually pushed me completely out of my comfort zone…. Especially if you have been asked to do it, and if your seniors trust you enough so that you could do it, just do it. You may not like it initially, but that would add a very valuable experience for you.” – Srikanth Bollavaram, on considering opportunities
6:37 – Connecting the Dots Backwards* Did Srikanth’s move into the railroad industry also involve shifting from individual contributor to leader? + Srikanth began as an individual contributor when he was working for the railroad but transitioned quickly into a technical lead role and then into more of an architect role. These were moves up into leadership type roles. + “Instead of seeking for a next level job, you try to do a next level job…in your current position, and then that automatically opens up positions for you. And I think pull is always better than a push in my opinion. Creating those opportunities and making you as an ideal candidate is how I operated…. It all depends on…where you are in your career and what that involves…. How many changes can you adapt at the same time…not only in career but also family wise…? …That’s why when somebody asks it’s always based on the context at which you are taking that decision.” – Srikanth Bollavaram - Srikanth tells us the shifting of roles may involve a relocation or moving to a new company. For those who have children, consider their age and where they are in school to determine how changes you make will impact family stability. - According to Srikanth, we should seek to make ourselves candidates for multiple things and not just one thing through building credibility and gaining critical experience in different areas of a company. + Srikanth once received advice to think of himself like a stock. If you are traded out in the open market, you should always be more valuable in that trade than to the current company. In this way you’re providing more value where you are operating because it’s like they get the stock at a discounted rate. - Instead of focusing too much on a level you want to achieve, improve your skills and capabilities so that you give more value to where you are currently operating. * John mentions patterns we’ve seen related to the idea of growth vs. comfort. + When we are comfortable, we are operating fully within our capabilities, but growth means learning and pushing beyond what is comfortable. It helps to have people pushing us to grow. + Srikanth also mentioned being pulled into specific roles, which speaks to having a strong brand within the organization as someone who can adapt, problem solve, and troubleshoot effectively. It means people recognize you as having the skills and abilities to perform a role when opportunities arise. + Additionally, it can be difficult to move to a new company based solely on having a strong internal reputation at your existing company. * With the above items in mind, let’s talk about Srikanth’s move into leadership and out of the railroad industry. + Srikanth says if you are comfortable in your job, you are likely not growing. + If you have good leaders and mentors as Srikanth mentions he did, they will be able to spot some of your gaps / blind spots and suggest ways to fill those gaps. + Srikanth tells us that moving out of the railroad industry was also a family decision. - The family lived in a small town and wanted to move to a warmer climate. - Srikanth’s kids were in elementary school, and he had extended family in the Dallas area. - Srikanth viewed changing companies as something that was better to do earlier in his career rather than later. + Initially, Srikanth thought he would still be working for the railroad if his family relocated, but that was not the case. Srikanth saw a leadership opportunity at a different company that needed someone to build digital platforms, and he had experience from the railroad industry which would easily transfer. - “I had a very good knowledge in terms of how to build those platforms, so I took that as an opportunity to come and start a new career in the CPG (consumer packaged goods) industry. But what you said is totally true. You just have to start from zero again in terms of your credibility and your relationships. It’s going to be a struggle, not only because you’re trying to build that within the company but you’re adapting to a new environment, new city…. It was a bit stressful to be honest at least in the initial years….” – Srikanth Bollavaram + Srikanth was excited about building a new team culture. - He was energized by the opportunity to build internal products and solutions. The team needed to think about how to build and make the platforms like a product. Srikanth says they were buidling the capabilities in the cloud, and it was very exciting. + “In terms of leadership, first you have to establish yourself as a credible leader. You have to bring along your team. I think that’s something from time to time you have to go through. You have to go through this phase of reinventing yourself….And you can always say this looking back.” – Srikanth Bollavaram - Srikanth reiterates that the change was more for family reasons than for a different position or to move up. + John says being able to tell a story looking back does not mean we know at the inflection point we know what the story is going to be. There is a range of possibilities in any decision. - Srikanth says if you’re very clear and focused about exactly where you want to go, that is a good thing, but he likes to remain more open. - “I am going to trust the process and see where it leads me, and what I learned in the process is establishing the relationships, building credibility. And while you’re working, not only think for your success but how do you make sure you’re always thinking of people who are working, how they are going to be successful? If you…go with that attitude – more of a team culture, your peers and colleagues…how do I make them successful, not just me? …You go through these projects or programs or roles…. It’s beautiful afterwards. The relationships you establish are long lasting if you go with that process, and that to me is more valuable than any roles or positions you held….” – Srikanth Bollavaram + Though we can connect the dots backward, Srikanth encourages us to think about the following when looking forward to increase the likelihood of good things happening because people will remember you. - Are you developing future leaders? - Are you making others successful and not just you? - Are you learning and getting out of your comfort zone?
17:53 – Leadership as a Responsibility* Is what Srikanth shared above what it means to truly progress as a leader once you become one, or are there other aspects we’ve overlooked? + “See, when you are a leader, the most important thing is you have to deliver the results. That is non-negotiable. But then comes how you do it…. I think you could achieve the results in various ways.” – Srikanth Bollavaram + If a leader can deliver the results through empowering people, being open, understanding yourself, and create a positive team culture…that leader can look back and be proud of the results. This part is personal to the leader. + Srikanth mentions reading the book True North: Discover Your Authentic Leadership which talks about leaders operating and delivering results based on their values (values being personal to each leader). + As a leader Srikanth adopts the things which are important to him without compromising the results. + “As you go up in the organization, it’s very hard to execute, deliver the results in the right way. But that’s where the real leadership test comes. Leadership is…to me a responsibility. It’s not a title. It’s more of a responsibility…towards the people you’re working with and toward the mission at hand….” – Srikanth Bollavaram * Each leader has a mission to deliver results which is usually based on the purview of their team and the internal organization in which it operates. When a leader is open to opportunities and is given a new mission to lead a different team, how do you make the transition while maintaining relationships with the former team and building up those with the new team? + First, it is about not only your success but also the success of the people working with you (on your team and beyond). + “Whenever I take up a role, what I see is…you’re there for a reason, to solve a problem. If you do it effectively, within a year or two, that position shouldn’t be there technically…. If you develop appropriate leaders…identify the leaders who are taking more responsibility and you grow them, any of them should be able to take it and run with it.” – Srikanth Bollavaram + Srikanth says when you’re given a leadership position, if you streamline it, you create an opportunity for future leaders who can take that role later on. You can also leave that position in a better state than when you started in it for the benefit of your successor. + “If you do that well, you don’t really spoil any relationships because you’re growing the people. You’re solving the problem…making it…. If you create a system effective enough, it probably can run itself.” – Srikanth Bollavaram + Srikanth takes the above approach in every leadership role he takes – leaving things better than when he initially started in the role and in a state such that someone else on the team can run the team. + Maybe this approach is similar to parents training their children to become adults and to need their parents less over time? - Srikanth reminds us that the aspiration of a leader is to leave the place in a better state than in which you found it. You can do this successfully by developing the next generation of leaders and ensuring the mission is not compromised. + John mentions the theory of constraints and reminds us that we don’t want to engineer a system where the leader is the constraint. - We don’t often think about leaders being a constraint. It’s usually something on the operations side that we think of being a constraint. But if a leader is the constraint, it is likely a leadership issue. - “But if the leader is there catalyzing a change that perpetuates itself beyond the leader’s presence, that’s a successful change.” – John White - Nick says a move to a new position is identifying and exploiting the next constraint. - Srikanth said his team did this very successfully when building digital platforms that were resilient and self-healing. They did things that at first didn’t even seem possible by eliminating one constraint at a time.
25:06 – Time Constraints and Non-negotiables* Nick mentions one big constraint for leaders is time. How can existing leaders and prospective leaders manage their time to focus on the most important things? + “I think about this in…multiple layers. First is take care of yourself…. Have a good fitness regimen…. Because if you can’t take care of yourself, you can’t take care of either your family or the team…. It gets really important to maintain your health, not only health in terms of physical fitness but also mental fitness…. What helps me is learn some kind of meditation…where you kind of take all the noise out and reset your mind from time to time. I think those are very important.” – Srikanth Bollavaram + Right behind taking care of yourself is taking care of your family and fulfilling your responsibilities to the family. A job, for example, can be replaced. You and the role you play in your family cannot. + Srikanth tells us when it comes to work, it is a process of continuous learning. Each day, he is trying to learn how to manage time better through developing new leaders, new processes, and new systems. All of these together allow for an operating mode that helps manage and reduce the number of exceptions to this operating mode over time. + “I think you have to continuously learn too because a lot of stress comes when you’re only seeing problems day to day. You may be solving the problems, but you have to have something else to enrich your mind other than the work and activities outside. I think it’s all about balance. It will go off balance many times, but it’s how quickly you come back to it is the key.” – Srikanth Bollavaram + Srikanth says we put some guardrails in place like planning fitness time and vacation time and working everything else around them. These breaks are needed and allow for rest and rejuvenation so we can come back and operate effectively. + “Work-life balance…I think it’s so intertwined now. It’s very difficult to say what that is…. You just have to within your context create that and what works best for you…. I would say your self-care and family…are non-negotiables.” – Srikanth Bollavaram * If you want to follow up with Srikanth on this conversation, you can contact him on LinkedIn.
Mentioned in the Outro* We heard about it last week and this week. Srikanth was open to new opportunities throughout his career to gain different kinds of experience across different areas. * Family was a big factor in job decisions for Srikanth, and along these lines he cautions us to be careful not to change too many things at once. + How many changes could you handle at once? We might not know until we try it. + The episode we assigned for homework, Episode 325 – Overwhelmed by Ambiguity: DevOps, Innovation, and the Search for Clarity with Daniel Lemire (3/4), was an example of someone taking on more change than they could handle at once. It was, however, a learning experience for Daniel. * Many times Srikanth needed to make a job decision because a leader suggested he take a new role. + Those leaders understood Srikanth’s capabilities and skills because he had built credibility through delivering results. We did not talk about it in the interview, but Srikanth must have been communicating his accomplishments to his leaders in 1-1 meetings. * Srikanth encouraged building our skills and capabilities over seeking a specific job role or title. + It’s skills and capabilities that help us meet job requirements. + Have you taken time to think about the skills and capabilities you need to build for what’s next? + What areas do you need to sharpen, and what are some new areas in which you need to build some skills? + You might need a mentor or someone else to give you advice on these topics. * Srikanth spoke about stepping into people leadership. His path, like that of many other guests traversed through technical lead. He was also an architect and even a principal engineer. It was not an immediate jump from individual contributor to people leader, but at each step, there was an element of leadership in these roles. + Part of the mindset shift in being a people leader was to focus on the success of others – building future leaders, improve processes, and build helpful systems. + Did you notice he’s still building systems even as a people leader? + Here’s a episode on the decision point between individual contributor and people manager that pairs very nicely with this episode – Episode 244 – An Array of Decision Points with Tim Crawford (2/2) .
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How honest should we be in job interview situations when it comes to what we don’t know? Srikanth Bollavaram, our guest in episode 335, would encourage transparency in these situations, but we should also find a way to communicate what our capabilities are and our potential to meet the challenges of a role.
Srikanth is a product development leader with experience spanning the financial, railroad, and consumer packaged goods industries. His story showcases stepping beyond building systems to become a well-rounded leader capable of driving real business impact. Listen closely to the story of an unexpected job assignment in Switzerland that jumpstarted Srikanth’s embrace of industry expertise.
Pay special attention during this interview to learn from Srikanth’s experience:
- Supplementing technical skills with business acumen and continued education
- Embracing the mindset that every challenge is an opportunity, even if it doesn’t seem that way at first
- Explaining complex concepts through the lens of practicality to stand out as a job candidate
Original Recording Date: 03-30-2025
Topics – Meet Srikanth Bollavaram, Practical Approaches to Mechanical Engineering and Computer Science, Relocation and Experience as a Consultant, Execution and Delivery, Continued Education and a Step Beyond Building Systems, End-to-End Solutions in the Railroad Industry2:13 – Meet Srikanth Bollavaram* Srikanth Bollavaram leads a product development organization for a global consumer packaged goods (or CPG) company. His organization is currently focused on building a product for a major business transformation. * Srikanth is originally from India but had the opportunity to relocate a couple of different times beginning early in his career. Srikanth relocated first to Switzerland to work in the financial industry and then later to the US. Today Srikanth and his family reside in Dallas, Texas.
2:54 – Practical Approaches to Mechanical Engineering and Computer Science* Growing up in India, Srikanth wanted to be an engineer. He was curious about how to build things and how things worked. But at that time there was a general expectation to become either a doctor or an engineer. + After being unable to dissect a frog in middle school, Srikanth realized his path was engineering. + When you want to be an engineer in India, you have to pass a test similar to the SAT. Based on overall rank, students in the top 1% get to choose their major. Most pursuing higher education would go to either a government school or a private college. + Srikanth had only a couple of minutes with a counselor to choose between pursuing mechanical engineering at a top state school or attending a private college to focus on computer science. At the time, Srikanth chose mechanical engineering because he had always wanted to go to the school where this program was offered. + While he did like mechanical engineering, Srikanth wanted to be a computer science engineer as well. Many of his courses for mechanical engineering were computer courses, and he focused on the practical uses of computer science for mechanical engineering tasks. * John mentions listeners might not know that the test and ranking Srikanth mentioned in India is nation-wide. Universities might differ on the requirements for entry based on your ranking. + Srikanth mentioned there was a state-level test in addition to the nationwide test, and based on your ranking you get a choice of major. But you don’t know which major you will get into until you go to counseling. + When Srikanth graduated there were not many national or state-wide engineering colleges. Now there is a quite a bit of choice for students in India. * Was engineering as a discipline of study as interesting as Srikanth thought it would be? + Before he began studying engineering, Srikanth says most of his education leading up to high school was heavily theory based. Srikanth tells us this did change but not to the extent he would have liked. + Srikanth tells us engineering designs were basically hand drawn 2-dimensional models. He was studying computer languages and wondered if he could draw a design in real-time on a computer screen, which provided an opportunity to experiment and observe. - Srikanth says he was more comfortable with the hands-on aspects of learning than the theoretical parts. There were lab exercises, but they weren’t representative of real-world scenarios. + Srikanth was also studying thermodynamics. While they did have labs, if he wanted to see how energy transfer worked (i.e. heat energy converting to electrical energy), Srikanth could go to a power plant to see the entire process. The practical aspect was more interesting. + “In engineering what I tried to do is focus less on academics but more on the practical applications of those academics, and that turned out…in my favor…. When I was graduating, all the consulting companies were coming and interviewing, and they were more looking for that broader application or mindset, and it was easier for me to get selected even though my academics were not the top in the class. But I had a broad variety of experience both in computers and engineering, and I could explain things in an easy way.” – Srikanth Bollavaram * Consulting firms partnered with many of the universities and would interview graduating students for jobs. Srikanth mentions a computer-based consultancy that was willing to consider candidates from various majors (including mechanical engineering, for example). + The consulting firms might ask candidates to take a competency test or conduct interviews to determine how candidates solve problems. * Nick says the desire to understand how things work and the practical application of it sets someone up nicely to be able to communicate how things work in a simple way. + Srikanth remembers a specific question from his interview about internal combustion engines. The internal combustion engine had been built based on Western designs, but Srikanth explained an example of how Indian engineers had built a stabilizer for fuel efficiency when vehicles traverse rough terrain. Srikanth’s approach to answering the question from a practical standpoint instead of solely a theoretical one really impressed the interviewer. + John mentions being able to ground complex concepts in reality and explain them in a way people can understand is something solution engineers constantly have to do, but as a skill this is useful in any discipline or field. + Srikanth stresses the importance of taking the time to understand a problem and its practical applications before narrowing to solution. + John says this feels like it falls into a pattern we’ve seen in the past. If you think you understand a concept, can you write down an explanation of it in your own words that you will be able to read and understand at a later time? If you cannot explain a concept to yourself, you might not understand it as well as you thought. + Srikanth remembers working for a leader who shared a similar lesson related to design. Put the design on paper, and try to explain it to yourself. This process would help someone think through all of a design’s implications and remember more about it in future days and even months afterward. * Was this process of explaining things to cement learning something Srikanth found himself doing when he made the move into consulting after graduating from school, or was it later in his career? + Srikanth thinks it was later in his career when he moved to technical leader and architect after some coaching from his leaders. Earlier in his career, Srikanth was a programmer driven to learn new concepts through testing and asking questions.
13:59 – Relocation and Experience as a Consultant* Srikanth tells us that his relocation to Switzerland was somewhat unexpected. At the time, he was a programmer, and he really wanted to go to the US. Srikanth had heard about a project in Switzerland that would last a few months and was eventually told he had to go. + When Srikanth was chosen for the assignment in Switzerland, he did not know what type of work he would be doing. + Srikanth learned he would be acting as a liaison between the customer who had hired his employer (a consulting firm) for the project and the IT team. + “A lot of times people are observing you, what you do…. Your skill set or what you are is determined by what people are observing. And they somehow thought that I was a better fit for this.” – Srikanth Bollavaram + Srikanth remembers his boss on the customer side asking him a lot of business questions the first time they met. In that moment, Srikanth was honest about what he knew and what he did not know but also spoke to the things he could potentially do. + “Talking about relocation…it’s all about context…. A lot of it is built on how you take it. I could have been sent back on the next flight because I was not fit for the job, but I talked to him and explained what I know and what I could do potentially based on if somebody could give a training. So, they sent me back on a business side training for like 3 days to get up to speed quickly. Initially I was supposed to be there 4 months, but they liked my work. So, they extended me for like 2 years…. I was a consultant. You just have to go and look at the job you have been assigned, not necessarily just ‘this is what I am going to do.’ What is the problem at…hand? …Do it well, and if you don’t know, build that trust you don’t know but you will learn and still do it. It was a great experience from that regard. It could have ended up otherwise. But it’s what opportunities come to you, and then how…you take it and run with it…makes the difference.” – Srikanth Bollavaram, on being a consultant + John reiterates the lesson here in being honest about what our capabilities are and are not. It’s not just about what you don’t feel qualified to do. Speak to what you can do and how you would get up to speed to do what a hiring manager / employer would need you to do. + Srikanth tells us it is about building trust and then following it through, even if extra effort is required in the beginning to serve the needs of the problem at hand. Even though Srikanth did not know what the job was initially, he was curious enough to learn and focus on solving the problem. + Nick thinks the manager in question really had 2 choices after understanding Srikanth’s current competencies. There is a lesson here for those in the manager’s seat to consider giving people the chance to learn something if they have the potential rather than dismissing a candidate because they don’t fit exactly what was needed. - Srikanth feels he has had leaders in the past who provided him with a chance to adjust and still execute. Even when we are competent, we still might struggle when initially pursuing something new (i.e. a new assignment / job, a new project, etc.). - As a people leader now, Srikanth tries to keep these things in mind when considering the holistic candidate based on the lessons he has learned and the opportunities previously granted to him.
19:20 – Execution and Delivery* What kind of pressure did Srikanth feel (if any) knowing he wasn’t fully qualified for what he had been asked to do? Though he did take the training, was there something more? + The first days of training helped Srikanth understand how the business ran and what they were asking him to do. This helped him feel more confident. + Srikanth also built relationships with others during the training to contact in the future for guidance if needed. + After about a week, Srikanth was much more confident. He also describes making an intentional mindset shift. - “I knew the programming. I knew all this. But this is something I cannot learn anywhere…. This is once in a lifetime opportunity. If I put in enough efforts, I could learn quite a bit in this area. So, I got more energized by that…. There was some…impostor syndrome, but I believe early in your career you are kind of ignorant to some extent. The excitement to learn and the opportunity overshadowed me, at least initially…. There is so much to learn, so let’s go and learn and do it.” – Srikanth Bollavaram - The company’s business was related to the Swiss stock exchange, clearing, and settlement on a domestic and international level. * Are some of these things we’re discussing inherent in the consultant role? Usually this is someone from outside an organization who is brought in to give some feedback or to solve a problem. + Srikanth tells us there was a specific problem to solve. The company who had hired him was working with a specific 3rd party company to build a solution. There were some gaps between what the business wanted and what was being provided, and they needed someone in the middle to help. - There were not really product-focused roles at this time. Even business analyst as a term was pretty new. - They needed a mix of technical and business knowledge to ensure the appropriate requirements were gathered to design and deliver a solution for what was needed. The company who hired Srikanth’s company wanted an external entity to provide the technical skills they were lacking and to execute the project representing them. - John says we might think about this today as being an external product manager who works with an external contractor that is developing a product. - “In a lot of ways, I was holding my own company people accountable to deliver that sitting on the other side, which was a bit awkward at that point…. But I think that was a very valuable experience because at the end that drives trust and accountability in a way that was not existing before.” – Srikanth Bollavaram - John says a company might do this to not ruin a relationship with another company. It would allow someone else to act as the “bad guy.” + Srikanth says whether you’re a consultant or in any other role, it is about building trust, keeping your promises, and then executing and delivering.
24:51 – Continued Education and a Step Beyond Building Systems* Nick sees elements of leadership in Srikanth’s role. He was in an interesting spot between the business and the extremely technical side, which provided multiple options for a next career step. How did Srikanth decide what to do next once the job in Switzerland came to an end, and how did the previous experience influence his decision? + “That did kind of teach me you just have to be multi-faceted. You need to…gain a well-rounded experience. Work on the business side. Try to understand the business. Do various roles…. Take whatever the role is thrown at you. Don’t ask whether it is specifically this or that. Try multiple areas, and then you can choose which direction you want. And that also enables you to be a well-rounded person.” – Srikanth Bollavaram + Srikanth wanted to come to the United States, and he would end up working for a credit rating agency, which he describes as a completely different challenge. At the time, this was not an extremely intentional choice, but Srikanth would later embrace an intentionality in his career, changing areas every 2 or 3 years to gain more experience. + John highlights the collision of / tension between 2 ideas here. First, there is confidence – determining what an employer needs and figuring out how to deliver it regardless of your current skill set. The second is the lesson Srikanth learned about intentionality as a contributor to career growth. + Srikanth mentioned upon coming to the United States, he also wanted to continue his education in addition to working full-time. He would enroll in a master’s program in MIS (management information systems – which we refer to as a computer science related field). - Even after completing the master’s program, Srikanth would take courses in leadership, program management, and other areas to add another layer to his skill set which he says was very much needed. - John highlights the MIS degree program as one of the few that could have at that time pointed Srikanth toward what we call IT (information technology) today. - Srikanth tells us the MIS degree was a combination of business, information technology, economics, and finance. Srikanth knew programming and how to build systems, but these additional courses provided a more complete picture. - “…I believe 5 years into my career at that point, and I knew the programming. I know how to build the systems. At that point, I felt that it was more appropriate to not only build the systems but also understand the other aspects to be more complete.” – Srikanth Bollavaram
29:24 – End-to-End Solutions in the Railroad Industry* Nick mentions that the studies compliment Srikanth’s desire to build things and understand how they work. One of the best ways to figure out how something works is to build it. + When Srikanth joined the railroad, he discovered there are few industry specific products for the railroad. In fact, most of the technology solutions needed to be engineered and built in-house. They needed employees with both software and hardware expertise. Some of the hardware components on a locomotive were very specific, for example. + Srikanth says working for the railroad really satisfied his desire to build things. + “I was very surprised to see how technically advanced the railroad information technology or engineering were. That’s where I would say I cut my teeth…. And the leaders there were just fantastic, even coaching and…growing us in the way that we could solve those bigger problems.” – Srikanth Bollavaram + During his time working for the railroad industry, Srikanth had the chance to be part of large programs which made a big impact both on the overall railroad industry and the greater US economy. + John highlights that this is an industry specialized enough to be somewhat unfazed by advances in commodity technology. It requires the operations teams to have an end-to-end system where they own all the parts or what John calls “owning things end-to-end.” Commodity items purchased off the shelf might need to be tuned to the specific use case (i.e. ruggedized hardware, for example). This was at a time before internet of things was really a thing. + Srikanth tells us it was about building end-to-end solutions and thinking about how to productize them to sell for other railroads to use. He gained some design experience during this time as well. + “Everything is an opportunity. When there is not a solution, you build it, but you can also productize and market it.” – Srikanth Bollavaram + Srikanth describes the introduction of a safety mandate for autonomous control of trains and needing to build something that could adapt to future technological advances. While autonomous control would stop a train if a human could not, it also introduces other considerations which must be addressed. - Srikanth was fascinated by the process of building real-time control systems. He stresses the importance of having deep engineering talent to support the end-to-end solution from a software and hardware standpoint. - These control systems are also safety critical. - “You need to make sure it not only performs the function…you asked to do but in all cases,…the safety of the system is not compromised. So, you have to think of all those boundary conditions as well.” – Srikanth Bollavaram * Nick feels like this is a great blending of the computer science and engineering background Srikanth had. Did Srikanth seek out the railroad industry specifically, or did the opportunity come to him? + Srikanth says he did not seek it out, but it was a logical decision. He had moved from Switzerland to California and would then move to the midwestern United States for the railroad job mainly for family reasons. Srikanth says his wife was studying at the University of Nebraska at the time. + “It happened to be the best decision…in terms of…combining all of those experiences and really growing myself. It was a very good environment to nurture the talent, experiment, do things, even sometimes fail…but recover and really enjoy the engineering work.” – Srikanth Bollavaram, on relocating to the Midwest for a railroad job
Mentioned in the Outro* Srikanth understood the technology but spotted opportunities to learn about the use and impact of technology within the scope of a certain industry’s business operations. The industry exposure and experience was the opportunity for learning in his mind. + These decisions took Srikanth’s knowledge beyond just building systems. It was a great exercise in truly understanding all the requirements a system must meet (including architectural considerations, design implications, etc.) based on the business need. + If you are looking for other stories of guests who embraced industry expertise to progress in their career, check out these conversations with Amy Arnold about her experience in the public sector: - Episode 281 – Packets Don’t Lie: Quality of Service for Technical Exploration in Network Engineering with Amy Arnold (1/2) - Episode 282 – All the Networking Things: Project Management, Pre-Sales, and Broadening a Technical Specialty with Amy Arnold (2/2) * Building end-to-end solutions required supporting every piece of the solution. This was truly product management and treating the solution like a product. While the railroad productized the solutions to sell to other railroads, not every company may productize things to sell outside the company. They may productize to use internally for different business units with different use cases. The product mindset can still be an effective approach. + Remember, if you are looking to progress into product management, you do not need to limit your search to only technology vendors. Product management roles can exist in many different places. * Your homework before we release part 2 of Srikanth’s story is to listen to this episode featuring Daniel Lemire’s story of taking on too much change in his career at once: + Episode 325 – Overwhelmed by Ambiguity: DevOps, Innovation, and the Search for Clarity with Daniel Lemire (3/4)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Imagine developing a set of skills that enables you to get a management job, only to find you have to throw away the entire toolkit that made you successful. This is the jarring reality for many new managers, a career change that is less of a step up and more of a step over into a completely different profession. This week in episode 334, John White flies solo to share a candid teardown of his first two and a half years as a first-time manager. He unpacks the great “unspoken skill swap” required to transition from a top individual contributor to an effective leader. Drawing from his own journey and advice from past guests, John offers a realistic preview of a manager’s daily reality, covering the jarring shifts in responsibility from doing the work to setting the context, from having the answers to finding the resources, and from individual achievement to enabling the success of others.
Original Recording Date: 06-29-2025
Topics – The IC-to-Manager Skill Swap, From “Do-er” to “Enabler”, Navigating Organizational Dynamics, Proactive Preparation for Management1:01 – Your Job Description Has Been Deleted* Imagine the skills that you had to develop in order to stand out as an individual contributor. * Imagine that the managerial job that you get as a result uses almost none of those skills in your day to day * Join John on a reflective journey on the realities of becoming a first-time manager.
3:25 – The Teardown – Learning the New Job DescriptionTeardown 1 – From “Doing the Work” to “Setting the Context”* The first jarring skill swap is moving from being the best individual doer to someone who communicates strategy and ensures operational smoothness for the team. * John recounts his initial instinct as a new manager to immediately re-engineer his team’s reporting process. * He recognized this as the wrong move, an attempt to act as the head practitioner rather than the manager. * He advises new managers to adopt an “Imitation before Variation before Innovation” framework. * Your first job is not to innovate but to create clarity and stability. You must first crawl by understanding why things are done the current way, then walk by making small tweaks, and only run with a major overhaul once you have a deep understanding of the context and have built trust.
7:20 Teardown 2 – From “Finding the Answer” to “Finding the Resources”* As a manager, your value no longer comes from having all the technical answers yourself, but from ensuring your team has the tools and connections they need. * John shares his experience of becoming a manager at a new company for a product he had never been a sales engineer for. * He knew he would never be the top technical expert on the team. * His instinct was to dive deep into the technology and certifications, but he realized his true job was to unblock his team. * The key shift in mindset is asking “Who knows the answer?” instead of “What’s the answer?” * A new manager must learn to tap into the team’s collective knowledge, relying on tenured members and peers to draw organizational maps that reveal where to go for help and how to solve problems.
11:02 Teardown 3 – From “Individual Contributor” to “Organizational Politician”* A skill that is often celebrated in an individual contributor—fearlessly asking challenging questions to find the best idea—can be detrimental for a manager. * The new job requires managing up and sideways to protect the team and secure resources, which involves navigating a complex political ecosystem. * John learned this lesson the hard way, realizing that asking pointed questions in a leadership meeting could be seen as confrontational or critical rather than constructive. * The new skill is understanding influence, timing, and venue. You must learn to have tough conversations privately, build consensus before a big meeting, and strategically navigate the chain of command to get your questions answered effectively without undercutting others.
15:04 Teardown 4 – From “Did I Have a Good Day?” to “How Can I Help?”* The metric for a “good day” changes entirely. As an IC, satisfaction comes from completing tasks and making tangible progress. * As a manager, you can end a day full of back-to-back meetings feeling like you accomplished nothing. * The new job is to measure your success through the output and growth of others. * John emphasizes that your most powerful tool is the one-on-one meeting, and the most important question you can ask is, “How can I help?” * “A good day is when you leave your team members more clear, capable, and confident than you found them.” * Your job shifts from being a do-er to an un-blocker, and your long-term success is the sum of your team’s successes.
17:01 Teardown 5 – From “Interviewer” to “Owning the Hiring Process”* Transitioning to management often means moving from occasionally helping with interviews to owning the entire, complex hiring process. * This responsibility extends from crafting the job description to ensuring the new hire is successfully onboarded. * A manager must coordinate with recruiters, budget approvers, and a cross-functional interview panel, all while ensuring consistency and fairness for every candidate. * This involves evaluating not just skills, but also understanding a candidate’s weaknesses and gaps, what training would be required, and how they compare to the team’s needs, turning it into a highly complex project management challenge.
20:00 – Synthesis – How to Build Your New Toolkit So, how do you develop these new managerial skills, perhaps even before you have the title? John provides actionable advice for aspiring managers. * Start by observing your current manager like an anthropologist—decode the “why” behind their actions. * Become an interviewer by taking other managers out for coffee to ask about the unseen parts of their job, such as handling performance conversations or advocating for budget. * Finally, find low-stakes opportunities to practice influence without authority by volunteering to lead small cross-functional projects or mentoring junior employees. * Call to action: perform a “micro experiment” in your next team meeting by holding back an answer and instead guiding the team to their own solution with questions. This feeling of guiding, not doing, is the core sensation of being a manager.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. * E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com * DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney * Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman * Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
This week in episode 333 John flies solo in a discussion of using AI to help generate high-quality career documentation.
Original Recording Date: 06-23-2025
Topics – Refresh LinkedIn, Rewrite Your Resume, Outline a Blog Post, with AI as a Career Co-Pilot01:03 – Introduction* This episode provides tactical advice for technology professionals on how to level up their career documents, such as resumes and LinkedIn profiles, by using Generative AI as a “thought partner.” * The goal is to improve career resilience in times of economic uncertainty. * 2:03 The core philosophy presented is that when using AI, you must be the “thought leader,” and the AI should serve as your “thought partner.” This model, first encountered by the host in Geoff Woods’ book The AI Driven Leader, ensures you retain control over your career narrative and authentic voice.
2:35 – Act 1: The Philosophy* 3:00 The roles in this partnership are clearly defined. As the thought leader, your job is to set strategy, own the message, provide the raw material (your experiences), and make final decisions. The AI’s job, as the thought partner, is to help brainstorm, suggest angles, challenge assumptions, structure thoughts, and rephrase sentences. * 4:26 A key warning is that recruiters and hiring managers are becoming adept at spotting low-effort, inauthentic “AI slop.” An imperfect but authentic resume or performance review is considered far more valuable than a generic, AI-generated one. You can’t blame the AI for mistakes; you are ultimately responsible.
4:50 – Act 2: The Playbook To get consistent, high-quality results from AI, John introduces a five-step method detailed in his blog post, Wielding the AI Chainsaw, a Starter Technique Toolkit. This process is designed to move from a simple request to a collaborative and structured session. * Step 1: Persona Prompting: Tell the AI who it should act as (e.g., a career coach, a skeptical engineer). * Step 2: Knowledge Generation: Have the AI pull foundational facts or frameworks relevant to your task before you begin. * Step 3: Task Specificity & Interactive Context Building: Give the AI a specific goal and instruct it to ask you clarifying questions to get the context it needs. * Step 4: Scaffolding: Provide the AI with a precise structure for its output. * Step 5: Reflection*: Ask the AI to critique its own work based on your goals.
7:07 Workflow 1: LinkedIn Profile* The discussion details how to apply the five-step process to improve your LinkedIn “About” section. * Starting with your own messy first draft, you guide the AI by assigning it the persona of a senior technical recruiter (Step 1), * asking it for the critical elements of a great profile (Step 2), * having it ask you questions about your draft (Step 3), * requesting specific outputs like opening hooks and keywords (Step 4), * and having it review its suggestions for tone and authenticity (Step 5).
11:44 Workflow 2: Resume or Self-Assessment This workflow demonstrates using the five steps to refine accomplishment descriptions. * The process involves assigning the AI a career coach persona (Step 1) and * using the STAR (Situation, Task, Action, Result) method as the foundational framework (Step 2). * You provide a project description and a relevant job description, then have the AI ask questions to align your project with the STAR method (Step 3). * The AI is then tasked with restructuring your description into powerful bullet points (Step 4) and finally, * reviewing those points for quantifiable impact and conciseness (Step 5). * This framing is valuable for both resumes and internal performance reviews, but it must be based on your actual experience, never fabrication.
15:02 Workflow 3: Blog Post Outline* The final example combines skill development with the practice of “learning in public.” * To brainstorm a blog post (e.g., “Why Network Engineers Need to Learn Python”), you assign the AI a dual persona of a content strategist and a skeptical senior engineer (Step 1). * The AI then generates potential objections a skeptic would have (Step 2), * helps you brainstorm persuasive arguments by asking questions (Step 3), * creates a structured outline for the post (Step 4), and * reviews that outline for its persuasiveness and suggests a compelling title (Step 5).
17:07 – Act 3: Homework* Listeners are given homework to practice the full methodology. The task is to take one bullet point from their resume, find a relevant job description, and walk through the five-step process with an AI to rewrite it using the STAR method. This exercise is designed to build a repeatable skill for wielding AI with intention.
19:34 Conclusion* The episode concludes by emphasizing that AI is a powerful tool, but its effectiveness depends entirely on the thought leader wielding it—you. The ultimate goal is not to become an AI expert, but to be a proficient user of the tool to cultivate a more resilient and well-documented career.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. * E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com * DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney * Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman * Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
This week in episode 332 we’re joined by guest Erin O’Quinn. In this part 3 of our discussion with Erin we’ll discuss her career journey through leadership, advocacy, and supporting women in tech.
Original Recording Date: 05-14-2025
- Erin O’Quinn is a senior manager of customer advocacy at a sizable tech company. If you missed part one and two of our discussion with Erin detailing her early career, check out Episode 330 and Episode 331.
Topics – Career Progression and Leadership Evolution, The Power of Customer Advocacy, Navigating Workplace Challenges as a Woman in Tech4:05 – The Transition to Senior Manager and Director* The transition to senior manager and then director involved a shift in perspective from being an individual contributor to an enabler for the team. Erin O’Quinn explains that a higher title can help get a “foot in the door” for important conversations. * 04:40 A key lesson in moving to a director role was realizing the job is not about personal delivery, but about empowering the team to deliver. Erin’s success became synonymous with her team’s success. This involved trusting the team and intentionally not being the expert on everything to allow team members to own their areas of expertise. * “I made a point of not knowing everything on purpose when I hit the director level, because I didn’t want to be the expert on everything. I wanted somebody else to go, ‘Oh, Erin, we’re going to you for this.’ [I’d reply], ‘Actually, you wanna go to my team member who is doing this, and that’s their area of expertise. They know this account better than I do,’ and letting them take the ownership. Not everybody above me had always done that. And giving that opportunity for [the team member] to say like, ‘My boss thinks I own this,’ it gives them a space to step up and into where they feel like they have more control of their own trajectory.” — Erin O’Quinn * 05:50 When promotions or title changes aren’t possible, a manager can provide growth by giving team members ownership and opportunities to expand their skills. This includes building career paths and being okay with team members leaving for roles that make them happier, ensuring the manager isn’t a gatekeeper to their career progression. * 07:04 To learn how to have effective career conversations, Erin spoke with other managers, took their advice with a grain of salt, and analyzed different approaches. She adopted a practice of listening without judgment and evaluating new ideas, even uncomfortable ones, to determine if they were better for her team. * 08:04 Having a mentor who was recently in the same role was invaluable. This mentor provided a 360-degree view, sharing perspectives from leadership and helping to avoid potential mistakes. * 09:18 A manager’s role includes identifying and clearing “landmines” for their team to make them more successful. Erin emphasizes making this responsibility explicit to the team, which encourages them to be open about challenges and fosters a learning environment where they were more willing to discuss challenges. This meant that Erin heard about all the challenges, not that it was her role to solve them all. Sometimes it was a challenge the individual needed to handle, but at least Erin heard about more challenges and could sometimes help. * 11:47 Erin distinguishes between project and program management. * Project Manager: Like an event manager, they see a specific task from “birth to death” with a clear finality (e.g., building one car). * Program Manager: They create and maintain a continuous system or cycle (e.g., building and running the factory that manufactures cars). The focus is on iteration and improvement of the system itself. * 12:42 While Erin considers herself more of a project person who enjoys seeing a definitive end to a task, she stays engaged with program management by focusing on how to enhance the “project experience” for new people encountering the program. This reframing keeps the work interesting. John notes that sales engineering has some parallels, where a specific sales campaign might be akin to a project, but the overall process of how sales campaigns are handled over time is akin to a program.
17:16 Customer Advocacy* The discussion turns to customer advocacy, which is a program designed to understand and share customer stories. It’s not about taking credit for a customer’s work but about highlighting how they solved a universal business challenge using a specific technology. * 17:59 Customer advocacy provides mutual benefits. * For the customer: It validates their project, helps secure internal budget and mindshare, and can serve as a recruitment tool by showcasing the cool technologies they use. * For the individual: It elevates their personal brand, positioning them as an expert and giving them a platform to build confidence and public speaking skills. * 22:28 When a customer is hesitant to share their story, the first step is to simply let them talk about their work in a low-pressure environment. By asking sincere questions and helping them see the broader impact of their work (e.g., “you’re taking this pain out of their lives”), they often realize their story is important and worth sharing.
24:28 Women in Tech* For women in tech facing hostile or unsupportive environments, it’s important to first have a direct conversation with a manager about the perceived challenges. Taking on side projects can also provide visibility outside of a difficult team dynamic. * 26:06 A challenge for women in tech can sometimes come from other women who have had to fight to be seen and adopt a competitive, “Highlander” (“there can be only one”) mentality. A frank conversation can help, but the first step is to ask to understand the situation. * 28:27 It’s crucial to avoid a zero-sum game mentality. Lifting up a colleague, especially a junior one through mentorship, can be multiplicative for the whole team rather than a loss for one individual. * 29:07 A subtle challenge for women in tech is being pigeonholed into “office admin” or emotional labor roles, like party planning, simply because they are women. Erin advises saying “no” to these assumed tasks. * 31:03 Micro-aggressions, like being called “dear” in a professional setting, are real and their impact stacks up. While they may not be intentional, they can be infantilizing and add to the emotional baggage of being in a minority position. Allies can help by being aware and addressing these moments. There’s even more emotional labor involved with handling these situations. * 34:49 Working mothers often carry an additional, invisible workload. They are frequently the default parent for school issues and bear the mental load for things like teacher appreciation week, which can lead to exhaustion.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. * E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com * DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney * Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman * Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Looking to improve the performance of your team? Improve the way they communicate, and you just might surprise yourself.
When we take the time to understand how people like to be communicated with and how they like to communicate with others, it changes everything. In episode 331, Erin O’Quinn is back with us to share what it takes to create a safe space for collecting ideas from members of a team so that all voices are heard and the right people get the credit for great work. You’ll hear all this through the backdrop of Erin’s experience as a team lead and people manager, and you won’t want to miss the story of how Erin shifted her personal brand to improve her own job performance in the process.
Original Recording Date: 05-14-2025
- Erin O’Quinn is a senior manager of customer advocacy at a sizable tech company. If you missed part one of our discussion with Erin detailing her early career, check out Episode 330.
Topics – Elements of Leadership and Experience as a Team Lead, Giving Others a Voice and a Space for More Contribution, The Tactics Behind the Strategy of People Management, Promotion and Personal Brand2:49 – Elements of Leadership and Experience as a Team Lead* To this point we’ve talked about a lot of projects with which Erin was successful, and people started to give her more. In all of these cases there were elements of leadership in getting the project accomplished by working with others. Let’s explore how Erin moved into the team lead role. + The team lead guides a specific group of people toward a goal and is usually not the people manager of any member of the team. A team lead could be leading a team of people who report to many different managers, for example. + Erin began leading programs in her twenties, but at first, some of her colleagues with more experience were apprehensive about Erin’s placement in that position. - Erin remembers having great managers who would sense a conflict coming and have a conversation with people before Erin did as a form of blocking and tackling and supporting her in these situations. + “With the team lead piece it’s figuring out how to get a successful delivery of something. You may not always run each of these people’s schedules or timelines, so it’s being that program or project manager. And you have to deliver a successful result. Usually for me, with these marketing pieces, it was to an event or to a point…. It was going to have a final point and stop. There was a put up or shut up moment that will happen for every single thing that I touched, and you will know if you succeeded or your failed because it happened or it didn’t. And if it didn’t, then we have another problem, and that’s another conversation you’ll have with your actual manager.” – Erin O’Quinn + Erin says the team lead role is about learning how other people work, and one of her biggest challenges was figuring out how to best communicate with people. She gives a few examples: - People take criticism and feedback differently. - Some people are very shy in a group setting and don’t feel comfortable speaking up, while others are loud and consistently speak up in a group setting. Erin gives the example of navigating how to take feedback from the person talking the most in a meeting as well as feedback from someone who sent an e-mail or had a 1-1 conversation with you after the meeting because they were not comfortable speaking up in the meeting. + “Being able to hear the different levels of voices as a manager of a program or a project or a team became one of the challenges that I got really excited about because I knew so many people…they were geniuses when you would put them on a stage or get them speaking to people, but they would get in these…quagmires when they were talking to their managers because they didn’t know how to speak to that one individual.” – Erin O’Quinn - Erin saw this kind of thing happening and didn’t want to be in this situation. She also did not want to be the future manager who didn’t let a top performer shine due to not knowing how to make them look better / get seen in the best possible way. - Erin would e-mail the team to communicate decisions in a way that showed the rest of the team how she was going to take in team member feedback. She gives the example of sending a message and adding in an important context point one member of the team brought up to her directly. - “It became a learned process to how to work together…. A lot of times the loudest person in the room is the one that gets heard the most, and that’s the way that you always go. But…they realized that sometimes there was a benefit to the other quieter voices actually having a say or letting them own a piece of something in a different way and letting their creativity shine in a new way that maybe would have been squashed down in a bigger group so that everybody had something that they had ownership of. There was more pride. That allowed the team to do more things better because they were willing to do it that way. And it was a lot of fun.” – Erin O’Quinn, on being a team lead
7:41 – Giving Others a Voice and a Space for More Contribution* Did experience as a team lead get Erin comfortable to start looking for a people manager position? + “I think I was always looking for a people management position, but being a woman in tech…there’s a tendency that if you’re not already qualified to do the job you’re taking on you don’t apply for the job that you’re taking on, that you really want.” – Erin O’Quinn + Erin mentions there is statistical data supporting the stark difference in the likelihood of applying for a job between women and men. Women feel they need to have significantly more of the required skills for a specific job before they are comfortable applying. - It’s been harder for women to get into upper-level management because they are more tentative and don’t push because they think they shouldn’t unless they are perfect for the job. - “I think there’s a little bit more bravado that comes from a lot of guys where they’re like, ‘I want that so I’m going to go for it’ versus women who say, ‘I’m qualified for it so I will go for it.’ One is a lot harder to do than the other.” – Erin O’Quinn + Erin was on a team that was half men and half women with each person having their own communication style. - Erin noticed women on the team would be collaborative with each other and work together well. If put into a larger group with men, they would often not speak up the same way they would if part of a group of all women. - “So, figuring out how to be the voice willing to come over the top and say, ‘such and such has an idea or such and such has this approach…let’s look at all of them together’ became my superpower…. And it didn’t have to be me. If anyone else put a new idea on the table let’s at least look at it because even if it wasn’t the perfect idea, it’s going to spur on ideas from others that maybe leads to that perfect idea or a better idea than just the one that was shouted out the loudest. That’s where I started to learn the team management skills….” – Erin O’Quinn - Erin first had to learn how to lead a group of people, and the people manager skills came only after getting to that position. * Were people initially uncomfortable with their ideas being shared with the entire team if shared with Erin 1-1? + Thinking back to the first time this happened, Erin shared an idea without asking first because the person was not comfortable speaking up in larger groups. After doing this Erin went back and spoke to that person 1-1. Everything turned out ok in this case. + After later becoming a team manager, Erin would have these conversations with people beforehand to ensure it was ok to share their ideas / feedback with the larger team. As part of these discussions, she would help team members understand the value of their idea to the larger group and both the timeliness and urgency of sharing the feedback. + In early management roles, Erin liked to make deicisions, go fast, and consider the right factors and team member input before a decision couldn’t be reversed. * John says in an ideation phase, having more ideas is better than having less. But judging the ideas is a separate phase entirely. + Erin says it should be but may not always happen that way. + “If you go into a room with a lot of people and there’s different levels of role within that room…if I’m not at the bottom, I try not to talk first. There’s a power with having a title or having an experience or what have you where if you say, ‘this is my idea,’ some people who are junior might go, ‘oh, that’s THE idea’ not ‘this is an idea.’” – Erin O’Quinn + Even if a person with a high title says something just to get the conversation going, junior team members may think their opinion will not matter. + Erin stresses the importance of letting more junior people share ideas first. The team can then iterate on those, and junior team members will not be afraid to participate. It puts everyone on equal footing. + Erin tells us there have been a number of times where she asked a question about something a senior leader said in a meeting because she felt like it was a safe enough environment in which to do it. She made sure to ask questions before a decision was made so as not to question the direction set forth by the leader. + “If we’re still trying to figure it out or trying to sus out what the goal is, throw everything up then, and don’t be afraid…. If I was doing this with one of my teams I would always start…asking other individual contributors first…. Where should this go? What is your idea? What problem do you see with this? Give them a space to critique somebody else, or give them a space to critique somebody who is more senior to them, even if they have the same title, because a lot of times…some people put a lot of value and weight to somebody else who has years, age years, on them…. The world is changing all the time, and somebody who is looking at it with fresh eyes may have a better approach. And there’s nothing wrong with listening. Even if you disagree with them, hear it out first, and then decide…is what they said worth it? I think a good manager and a good team lead or a project lead can provide a lot of space for more contribution so you don’t get stuck in a ‘this is how we do things.’ I think that is one of the challenges of being at a bigger company. Because you’re working with a matrixed organization and a big machine, you gotta do all these steps and all these processes, but sometimes if you don’t stop and look at the machine, you can’t figure out how to change it. And you will be left behind by these small, nimble organizations.” – Erin O’Quinn - Erin has seen very experienced colleagues think they are right because of the extent of their experience, but they might not be. - Try listening to fresh ideas and being open to new perspectives. - Ask the newest member of the team how they are looking at or seeing something. This can open up questions and topics of discussion that can lead to better results. Erin reminds us there is no harm in asking for this kind of feedback early on. * Nick loves the idea of providing a safe space in which people can give feedback and share ideas. Did sending out people’s ideas to the team make them more likely to speak up in future discussions? + Erin likes to give credit for concepts. While we do have to be careful about adding ideas after an open discussion concludes to not look like we’re pushing a personal agenda, Erin wanted to let her teams know that people who may have been quiet in the room were indeed participating. Their participation was in a different way than others, and that is ok. + It may feel like a time suck, but Erin tells us it is well worth it to take the time to go through a process to understand how people like to be communicated with and how they like to communicate to others. + “Understanding that process really can make a huge difference in how a team functions. I’ve been on very dysfunctional teams. I’ve been on very, very streamlined teams…. One of the teams that I was on…it was a great team. Everybody loved each other. Working as individuals with each other, everybody got along, but there were some communication challenges. And we went through this process and learned that certain people, even if they were quiet people, they communicated in a different way than you expected them to….” – Erin O’Quinn - The communications exercise Erin mentioned above cleared up a lot of misunderstandings with one particular team and made a massive difference in the way people worked with one another. - Erin shares an example of how understanding communication styles helped junior team members gain confidence, dispel fear, and collaborate more effectively with other teammates faster than they would have without that understanding. - “If you build the team, you know the players on your team. You kind of know what you’re bringing into a group. If…you’re inheriting a team, setting a level playing field for how people talk to each other is very helpful so that everybody understands the communication process.” – Erin O’Quinn
19:04 – The Tactics Behind the Strategy of People Management* When Erin got the manager role, did she feel she was fully qualified before she applied? + Erin says she had no doubt at that point and that she probably should have tried it earlier. + Erin is in customer advocacy / customer references, and it’s a pretty flat organization. + “It’s hard to move up when everything’s pretty flat. Your responsibility changes. Maybe you mentor more or you guide more or you’re seen as an expert by more people. But you’re rarely moved to a different layer of management because it’s usually a fairly flat organization.” – Erin O’Quinn * Did Erin seek out the manager role, or did someone encourage her to do it? + Erin thinks she had been speaking to her manager about it. She was given a promotion but not necessarily to manage people. When asked what other kinds of things she wanted to do, Erin said she wanted to have a team. + “I want to have a team, and it’s not because I need more people, necessarily, to do everything that I’m doing. But, I think that I’ve picked up rapport and skills that I could help others navigate these things in a more meaningful way…. I can help somebody else. That’s why I wanted to be a people manager.” – Erin O’Quinn + Erin cites having excellent managers in the past who were great mentors that walked her through processes even when they were very busy. She was able to observe how those managers did blocking and tackling, learn from their strategic thinking, and understand how decisions were made. She was able to understand “the tactics behind the strategy” to make it easier to move into people management later. + “Not everybody is cut out to be a people manager. I think there’s a lot more people who could be amazing…thought leaders or individual contributors, and there’s no harm in that. And a lot of tech companies have realized some of the people who are genius level individuals are not designed to have a team of 50 report to them because that takes them away from what they are amazing at…. For me, I realized that there’s only so many things that one human being can do at a time, and I think I’ve picked up the skills and the abilities to actually be able to help others even if what they’re doing is not my expertise. I don’t have to train them in my image. I just have to be able to give them the space and the tools so that they can do what they’re going to be good at.” – Erin O’Quinn + Erin has also seen examples of very bad managerial conversations. She mentions one instance of a manager reprimanding an employee who was never told until the reprimand that there was a problem. - “In a space where people don’t want to be the bearer of bad news, sometimes it’s ok to be the bearer of bad news. You have to actually just say it.” – Erin O’Quinn, on giving difficult feedback - Erin shares the story of having a discussion with someone about specific challenges. The person thought everything was fine and working well, but that was very different than how things were being perceived by others. Erin had to give the person some very candid feedback on how what they were doing was being perceived, making sure not to label it as right or wrong. This person needed to communicate their successes and the gaps more effectively to their management. Erin took the time to coach this person in better ways to communicate via the quote shared below and helped develop a plan for improvement. In the end, this person thanked Erin for the feedback and help because they did not know. - “You can’t do that. Until they know that you are the expert, they won’t necessarily believe that saying ‘we’re good’ means anything. So, you gotta prove first that you get it, you understand the metrics the way that they need to see the metrics, and show them repeatedly that you’re delivering these results. And then, after that, if they see the pattern, then you can say ‘we’re good’ and they know that that means that you got all of these metrics down and we’re set…. But until you can articulate it and speak it in the same language, that’s not how it’s being seen.” – Erin O’Quinn, feedback to someone on how to better communicate with leaders + Erin likes to address things early on to avoid “kick in the pants” moments like the one shared earlier. If you see something, you should say something. - Erin might send someone an e-mail with feedback after a meeting, for example. - She encourages team members to take credit for the work they are doing. It is better for a team member to talk about the great work they are doing in front of others so they get the credit. If Erin mentions it, she might get the credit instead of the team member (which she does not want). Erin has even encouraged peers of hers to promote themselves in front of others so that the team overall looks stronger. - “The rest of the people are why I’m a leader – because they’re doing all these amazing things, and these are all the amazing things that they’re doing. Give yourself credit. Don’t just say, ‘this happened.’ Say, ‘I helped this happen’ or ‘this happened because I did this work.’ And show the work…. Being able to help people toot their own horn is one of my favorite parts of being a manager.” – Erin O’Quinn - Erin tells us there’s a misconception about customer advocacy. People think stories being out there make them magically appear. It takes work to identify the story and give someone the space to tell the story that can then be packaged into something amazing. It’s the extra pieces brought to the story that make it work, and people deserve credit for shaping that final product. * Nick likes the way Erin didn’t label anything as good or bad when giving difficult feedback to someone and focused only on how someone’s actions were being perceived. + We need to give people a context to work in. If we tell someone something is wrong, they need to understand what is wrong and what is right. + We have to set a context and tell a person what people are seeing and the mismatch between what others see and what they are trying to do. Erin likes to help the person build a plan to get the person closer to where they intended to go. + “There’s a lot of people who are great at promoting other things, but they’re not great at promoting themselves. For a long time, I was in that boat….” – Erin O’Quinn - At first Erin felt like promoting herself and her work was bragging. She wanted to be humble and stay behind the scenes when it came to event marketing. - Erin says we cannot move forward if we don’t talk a little bit about what we’re doing.
27:25 – Promotion and Personal Brand* John feels like we’ve been talking about personal brands in the last few minutes. What’s Erin’s take on personal branding? + Erin says a brand is the feeling we get when we perceive something. + When we see company logos of brands, there’s an instant emotional reaction of some kind that happens. + “A personal brand is, ‘what does this person mean to you in the context of work?’ Straightforward. Everybody’s got one whether you want one or not.” – Erin O’Quinn + Erin says she re-built her personal brand during COVID but didn’t realize she was doing it at the time. She had a number of personal challenges during the lockdowns in addition to just COVID. + “Being a mom with a kid at home going through personal stuff during COVID, and everything was on display because everybody’s working from home. It takes a lot of effort to have your business persona and your home persona, and I realized that I was putting up a lot of effort to separate them…. I stopped trying to separate that and just be more present, more me…. I realized that what people said was professional was just being in a box, and I kind of threw the box out.” – Erin O’Quinn - Erin had been told earlier in her career what being professional or being approachable looked like. There were some other preconceived notions as well. - “I kind of scrapped it and said, ‘I think I’m good at my job because the people that I work with appreciate my candor. They appreciate my sense of humor or my approachability. Just do that and be that all the time. Why try to be something else if it’s working?’” – Erin O’Quinn - Erin realized she did not need to separate those parts as much and could bring her personality into all parts of her job. It was ok to do it. - After making this change, Erin felt more comfortable, and because she was more comfortable, she was more approachable and able to do her job better. - Being more present as a person allowed Erin to have better conversations with co-workers. She was more candid and open. Erin was able to approach customer conversations very differently than before as well. - “It makes it easier to have the conversation, easier to do the next step, if they are talking to a person as opposed to a role. Once I figured that out and let it go, my job got so much easier, and I got better at it too.” – Erin O’Quinn + Erin has been able to maintain this brand and attitude ever since making the change. Multiple times she has been able to approach something differently or ask in a different way to encourage someone to share their story with the customer advocacy team. It helps eliminate doubt. - “Any time I can do that to help somebody get their story out in the world, I’m in to help that.” – Erin O’Quinn + John refers to this as injecting human and personal relationships into a business process to remove friction. Organizations are ultimately made up of people. - “I think if people realize that they’re working with a person and that person has thoughts, feelings, and emotions you are more beholden to act. If given the opportunity, I’d rather have the conversation in person. I’d rather have it on Zoom than on the phone because I can see your reaction or you can see my reaction, and you know that I’m being genuine. You can’t fake real. You can try. You can be the best actor in the world. You can know how to cry on command or whatever, but there’s a falsehood to it. And I’d rather just be genuine, make an ask or connect with somebody, and it’ll work better. It’s helped me maintain more meaningful work relationships over the years…my whole career, quite honestly.” – Erin O’Quinn
Mentioned in the Outro* While not mentioned in the episode, Erin has used empathy as a skill in effective team management. + This pairs very nicely with Marni Coffey’s use of empathy to build inclusive teams in Episode 278 – Uncovering Empathy: The Greatest Skill of an Inclusive Leader with Marni Coffey (1/3). * Erin’s focus on improved communication even as a team lead was also a focus on developing the people around her. + If you listen to Marni Coffey’s story of becoming a team lead in Episode 279 – Change Management: The Hardest Leap and Developing People with Marni Coffey (2/3), this theme of developing others is reiterated. + We’ve heard multiple guests reiterate the need to develop others to be successful as a team lead. * Even if you’re not a team lead or a manager, you can figure out how to best communicate with your co-workers by just asking them. + Brad Pinkston told us way back in Episode 84 – Management Interviews and Transitions with Brad Pinkston that one of the first questions he asks a new boss is how they like to be communicated with. + We can also blend our personality into our communication with people to strengthen connection. * There were a number of motivations for becoming a people manager in that episode: + Helping other people avoid mistakes + Make sure people receive credit for the work they are doing and that they can communicate their work to management in an understandable way. Some of Erin’s work as a manager is getting employees to advocate for themselves to tell the story of the work they did to achieve an outcome. - Hopefully you’re communicating the work you are doing in 1-1s with your manager, but don’t forget that documenting your accomplishments is a pre-requisite to these conversations! + Erin paid attention to things her managers did well (i.e. how to have difficult conversations) and what some did not do well. + Check out Episode 244 – An Array of Decision Points with Tim Crawford (2/2) as a compliment to this episode with some extra considerations on the decision between individual contributor and manager.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page. * If uncertainty is getting to you, check out or Career Uncertainty Action Guide with a checklist of actions to take control during uncertain periods and AI prompts to help you think through topics like navigating a recent layoff, financial planning, or managing your mindset and being overwhelmed.
Being a utility player in the sports world is one thing, but what does a utility player look like in the tech industry? Erin O’Quinn, our guest this week in episode 330, says it takes a willingness to learn, approaching what you learn as something that can help you later, and a willingness to advocate for yourself.
Erin is currently a senior manager of customer advocacy at a sizable tech company. After studying communications in college, Erin’s first roles were in marketing communications, where she became well versed in the logistics of events like trade shows and developed a distinctive advantage by saying yes to new tasks / projects (even a little IT support for her employer). Throughout this first part of the story, Erin learned what she wanted most from a company’s culture, what it takes to develop a corporate brand, and how to communicate effectively with executives. As you listen to this episode, think about this – what is something you could say yes to today that could help you grow in the future?
Original Recording Date: 05-14-2025
Topics – Communications and the Work of Marketing, Experience with the Cultural Elements of Tech Companies, A Return to the Tech Industry, The Strategic Side of Marketing, Communication with Executives2:15 – Communications and the Work of Marketing* Erin O’Quinn is a senior manager of customer advocacy at a sizable tech company. She has conversations with account teams and end customers to truly understand how customers use specific products, the benefits they have received from those products over time, and how success has impacted careers, teams, and the overall business. Erin tells us it’s a fun job. * From where Erin began, it’s been a long, winding road to get to where she is now. * Upon starting college, Erin planned to be a psychologist and counsel people in a 1-1 staetting. The school she attended (University of California San Diego) had a psychology program more focused on behavioral psychology and less on how people interact. As a result, Erin decided to pivot to studying communications. This ended up being a natural shift. + The communications program focused on mass communications and communications as a social and cultural force. Human information processing concepts brought in some psychology as well. + Erin refers to herself as a media junkie who wanted to understand how it influences people * Some of Erin’s first roles were in MarCom positions, but not all were with technology companies. + MarCom is marketing communications, but with marketing in general, the same terms can mean different things at different companies. + “If you ever look at job descriptions and you see a title, you can’t just go by the name of a job. You actually have to look at what the job description is to figure out if what you think it says is what it is. But marketing communications at that point meant more of the mass communications…creating publications….” – Erin O’Quinn, on MarCom positions + In college Erin became the editor of a newsletter. She learned how to do layouts and graphic design in addition to doing some writing. + Her first job was with the San Jose Real Estate Board, made up of local chapters to help members become realtors. Erin would send out the newsletter, but the company also realized Erin knew how to fix computers. When people had questions and IT was not around, people would ask Erin. She became the IT department and the marketing department. + The company was switching from Novell to Microsoft. They wanted Erin to help with this transition, and when she asked for formal training to fill knowledge and experience gaps, it was denied. She was worried a poor outcome could be career limiting and began looking for other jobs. The transition to Microsoft, however, did go smoothly. * “But I did switch from there into tech because I realized I enjoyed the idea of being a little more hands on with technology, but I like the marketing side. So, I went to a tech company….” – Erin O’Quinn + The company Erin worked for developed a back end for search engines like HotBot and Yahoo. + Erin accepted a job as an executive assistant at this company but told her boss she would only take it with the understanding that she did not want to be an executive assistant in a year. + “I told my boss at the time, ‘I will take this job if you promise me that I won’t be your assistant in a year. ‘I knew that I wasn’t somebody who wanted to be an administrative assistant. I wanted in at the company because it sounded fun and the people were interesting. And I loved not being the smartest person in the room. I was guaranteed to do that at this company. I knew I would be learning all the time.” – Erin O’Quinn + Around 6 weeks into the job, Erin was asked to help support the company at a trade show. She expressed a willingness to learn and said yes to her first trade show. + The next time she was asked to support the company at a trade show, Erin had to run the entire event in New York City to fill in for a colleague. She learned about unions, working with vendors, and how to set up the booth at the trade show. Since it was a small team, Erin needed to know how to demo the company’s products, who to ask if there were in-depth questions she could not answer, and how to talk to anyone who came by the booth whether it was a CIO or any other member of a technical team. + Erin loved the events side. It allowed her to work with many different people at the company. She liked the challenge of either figuring things out or failing. * Were there other reasons Erin didn’t want to be an executive assistant long-term? + Being an executive assistant (or EA) was more about taking care of an individual and less about doing the work of marketing. Erin was more interested in the marketing work than being a support character. + Erin had worked in her own department before and was changing jobs to become someone’s assistant. After developing skills and experience in her previous marketing role, she wanted to keep growing. Many assistants stay in those roles for a long time, and Erin didn’t want to stay in it long because the shift to something else is more difficult if you are an assistant for a long time. + Erin wanted to set the agenda and intention with her boss up front, and it made things easier to shift out of the assistant role later. - “I wasn’t asking for crazy money. I wasn’t asking for a lot of things, but if I was willing to fight for myself that way up front, he knew that I was going to be somebody interesting to work with. And I think that actually helped me get the job…. I love being a generalist whenever possible. It’s more fun.” – Erin O’Quinn - Erin was focused on ambition and optionality. * Had Erin been interested in writing up to the point of doing the newsletter to make her a well-rounded communicator going into marketing? + When in college, Erin assumed communications entailed either being in front of a camera or writing, thinking she needed to build skills in both areas. + Erin tells the story of working with her roommate to resurrect a specific newsletter for the university. Erin used her experience in layouts, and the roommate did the editorial part. Even after Erin and her roommate left the university, the newsletter continued to build momentum thanks to their initial commitment to get it going again. + Erin also did an internship at a phone book company. The phone books were published in English, Tagalog, Chinese, and Vietnamese to serve a large Asian community in San Diego. Erin would take translated ads and do layouts as well as reach out to local politicians to get endorsement letters. + “I started advocacy in college, whether I knew it or not. I just followed the transcript and did it. It kind of got me set up, I guess, to do it later in life.” – Erin O’Quinn
12:28 – Experience with the Cultural Elements of Tech Companies* What did the moves look like once Erin moved on from the executive assistant role? + Erin grew up in the San Francisco Bay area and has been surrounded by tech since birth. Some of her family members worked for HP for their entire career. + Erin’s mother works in the biotech / pharmaceutical industry, and her dad worked as a punch card programmer before he went on to a career in sales. + Tech was booming at this time. There were lots of job opportunities, and it seemed like a good industry to enter. + The web was still pretty new. Erin had learned HTML in college and filled in once when a webmaster (or website administrator) left. + Erin worked on promotional items and ran events. Because she was good at it, Erin was asked to run all the trade shows for the company, and it became her primary job. - This involved things like handling logistics, working with product management and product marketing teams, and sometimes working with development teams. Erin had to ensure the technical specifications for what would be demonstrated in the booth were properly captured and that the booth was set up properly. - Understanding servers and networking was very helpful because Erin helped set up the booth and especially in cases where they had technical issues at the booth. - Erin needed to know other things like how to have people behave, how they should dress, the colors to use, and how to handle marketing for the events. - Erin says she eventually became the promo queen at this company. + “I was always having fun and always getting to learn. I never felt like I was being stuck in a role. If I wanted to know something different, I asked the question. That first tech company I worked at was very happy to get me involved. They had a very open culture.” – Erin O’Quinn - Erin describes some of the cultural elements at this first tech company where she worked (during the .com era) – super soaker fights, barbecue competitions, etc. - “…Different levels of creativity. I loved seeing that it wasn’t just the people who were supposed to be creative. By outside standards everybody assumes that in marketing you’re supposed to be the creative ones because you’re coming up with the visual and the brand and the words. But I loved how creative the development teams were and how creative the IT teams even could be at times…. I gained respect not just for people’s technical knowledge or how they could wordsmith but seeing every person at this organization as wholistic people who have multiple skills. I think that also prepared me for being able to move into different organizations after that in a more meaningful way….It was a blast.” – Erin O’Quinn - The unique nature of Erin’s role allowed her to meet every person at the company that went from 65 people to 1300 people at one point. - Erin worked with events, internal events, and internal communications. She would assist with content creation for company meetings and handle the meeting logistics. * What did Erin take away from this experience in terms of the company culture she wanted for future jobs? + Erin calls out the way people interacted and supported each other as something she really liked. There is a difference between doing an activity because we have to and doing it because we want to spend time with the people involved in the activity. + “To work with people that made me happy to be in the office with every day was something that I decided I needed in a career, and that’s something that stuck with me….” – Erin O’Quinn - Based on the cultural exposure she’d had to that point, Erin was able to look at a new company and contemplate what about it she wanted to be a part of. + Erin took a brief break from working in the tech industry after a time of layoffs at her company and worked as a merchandising coordinator at Technology Credit Union. - The company had a dual focus – expanding their membership and to whom they were allowed to market. + Erin realized quickly into the merchandising coordinator that the work came in spurts. Promotions happened once per quarter and took about 4 weeks to handle effective. Things were quiet the rest of the time, and Erin didn’t like this. - As Erin began looking for other things to occupy her time, she found a couple of different teams inside the company with no support from marketing. The first was the business development team who would reach out to businesses (tech companies) and promote membership. - “And what I rapidly realized was that the people who were doing that were very good at business development at a credit union, but they didn’t know how tech people thought. They didn’t know their audience.” – Erin O’Quinn - Erin felt her experience running tech events could help the business development team communicate more effectively with their audience. She created some marketing packages with branded designs and supported their events. The business development team needed to rethink items they might use for free giveaways because of the tech audience, for example. - There was a mortgage team Erin worked with to build out their first set of marketing materials to be seen as consistent with the organization. - Erin continued to expand her reach in addition to supporting the promotions each quarter. Helping those other groups as well made the job much more interesting to her. + Did the additional work Erin did increase her value to the overall organization? - She believes it did. The job market was tough during this time, but for credit unions it is about growing and maintaining the membership. - Erin was primarily concerned about 2 things – being useful and picking up skills. Previously when she worked at the tech company, Erin was learning on a daily basis. - “How can I make sure that I keep that trajectory? Because otherwise, I will get bored, and I don’t do well in boredom…. So, I wanted to find ways to keep myself entertained, and I did. But it drew me back to tech.” – Erin O’Quinn * Did Erin communicate the additional work she was doing to her leadership in 1-1 meetings, for example? + Erin’s manager knew what she was doing as did the vice president (VP) above her manager. Sometimes the VP would assign her exploratory projects or ideas to test directly. + She would get random tasks. They didn’t always lead somewhere, but each one was an opportunity to learn something, making it interesting for Erin. + John says Erin was a utility player in this role. She agrees and says this is a pattern for her over time. - Erin tells a story from her previous role at Inktomi that involved buying as many matchbox Ferraris she could purchase in San Francisco as a joke for the CEO of the company. - “I always ended up with these very bizarre tasks because I would just be up for whatever was needed.” – Erin O’Quinn - Breaks between event seasons gave her the room to be creative in the work she took on.
23:55 – A Return to the Tech Industry* When Erin transitioned back to working for a tech company after working at the credit union, she returned to a MarCom role and at first wondered what the pace would be like. She worked for a startup-like public company called Opsware. * Erin’s first project after getting the job was focused on the company’s new executive briefing center. She tells the story of needing to have a chairman make some final decisions and then slammed into him by accident in one of the office hallways upon their first meeting. + Despite the collision, she did get the answers needed, and her managers were impressed. * Part of Erin’s work was doing case studies and trying to establish a corporate brand. + The company was also building their sales teams around this time. Erin would work with different groups to make usable tools to serve those teams. + As the company became more event focused, Erin jumped back into trade shows again, and since this was her comfort zone, anything else they did would be easy. + “I was able to bring some of my expertise in the job, but I was also spending a good portion of the time learning about the technology…. I went from a caching and search engine company into a true enterprise software company. I didn’t know what that meant. I didn’t know how the sales teams would operate. I didn’t understand what was needed, but I learned fast because everybody was willing to talk to me and tell me. Being in a company where they want you to learn and they force you to learn, I was all in for drinking from that fire hose.” – Erin O’Quinn + When Erin asked people to show her how to demo products so she could fill in for anyone working the booth as needed, they were a little surprised. Erin was insistent on learning the products, only wanting people to help her understand the pitch for a basic understanding, which opened the door to pass a conversation on to someone else if more depth was needed. As the product portfolio expanded, Erin continued to learn the remainder of the products. * Erin refers to her time at Opsware as fast, furious, and fun. She later would go on to work for VMware but realized she was at the first VMworld event representing Opsware. At that conference she ran into a number of former colleagues from Inktomi. + “That is when I realized I guess how strong of a world technology really was and that who you know sometimes comes in handy.” – Erin O’Quinn * Erin also tells us she stores many different pieces of information in her memory that she will find a use for some time later. + How you packed a suitcase might help give you a creative idea for shipping something to an event, for example. + Candy is expensive to get through customs when going to Europe, for example. + Certain things we learn which we will never forget come in handy in other parts of our job.
28:29 – The Strategic Side of Marketing* In addition to tactical items, did Erin get involved in some of the strategic sides of marketing like cultivating the voice of the brand? + Erin says she worked on a lot of the presentations for the company. + She cannot take credit for the voice of the company but was able to work with a marketing agency her company worked with. They had to figure out how to make something look simple and complicated at the same time or prove the complexity was there without showing it to make the message more accessible to people. + Erin worked on creating the visual identity of the company and not specifically the brand or logo. Part of that work was translating what they wanted (which might be complex words) to someone who was very graphically inclined in a way that was understandable. + “How do these pieces of information get carried through so that it can be explained either very simply, or prove that complexity to show that we’re handling the complexity in a simple way? That process definitely has helped me along the way…. It was learning new skills more around translation and connecting than it was about how to build a strategy for that company until we were acquired, and then I got a chance to do a little bit more hands on with some of the strategic planning.” – Erin O’Quinn, on developing a visual identity for the company + Opsware was acquired by HP and became part of HP Software. Once this happened, Erin was one of the only people from Opsware who was not placed in product marketing. They left Erin in corporate marketing, but she did not really fit into a specific bucket because she is a generalist. - The event team thought Erin worked for them for a long time, but they later realized she was not part of their org chart. Erin still supported some of their events. - Erin was able to work with the brand team, the search engine optimization team, and some others. - “Every skill you pick up at some point in your career is going to help you some place else whether you know it or not. That would be one of the biggest things I could stress in that journey for me.” – Erin O’Quinn - In working with the brand team, Erin also worked with executive communications for different types of events (a user conference, a sales event, etc.). She was more focused on logistics but got to be in the room to hear conversations about how to convey strategy. - “So, I didn’t shape it. I never would take credit for any of those parts, but being there and being in that room where it happens, you learn a lot as to how that works…. You can see the process and then extrapolate that into something else that you can actually build yourself later.” – Erin O’Quinn
32:52 – Communication with Executives* Did Erin apply the thing she was learning from being a part of the executive communications in her own communication with executives? This is very difficult for the individual contributor. + Erin says her first 3 jobs working in small organizations really prepared her for this. She knew the CEO at each of those companies on a first name basis. This experience built a fearlessness when communicating with executives. + Erin tells the story of a developer who came to her at one of these companies and said he wanted to start a cricket team. When Erin encouraged him to go speak to the CFO (whom she knew on a first name basis), he was terrified. Erin offered to introduce this person to the CFO to make it easier. + “By knowing them and them knowing me and becoming more comfortable just remembering that they’re people before they are anything else made it much more comfortable for me to do that. So, I do feel privileged that I had that opportunity, but it stuck with me.” – Erin O’Quinn + When we speak to executives as experts in what we do, we need to remember executives are experts in what they do (running something much bigger). - Understand what an executive’s position is and what matters to them about what you’re going to ask. You might need to give them more context to understand the full details of what you’re asking or understand that you’re asking the wrong person. - If you need an executive’s buy in on something, Erin suggests getting to know the person’s executive assistant. - “They are much more approachable as a rule, and they are the gate keepers to a lot of executives. So never, ever, in any company treat an executive assistant poorly because they are the most helpful people on the planet. Or they can be very difficult if you treat them badly.” – Erin O’Quinn, on treating executive assistants well. - Executive assistants will let you know what your level of access is to an executive. - Never take it personally if an executive assistant provides feedback on a better way to approach something. Take it as information they are giving you to help you. + When someone tries to help us by explaining their expertise, we should listen and not take it as a critique. - “A lot of people can take critique very personally, and the only way to grow, I think, is to be given guidance. If everything that you do is perfect the first time, you don’t get an opportunity to learn because you don’t understand how to fix something. It just means you’re lucky in some situations…or you’re not stretching. If you’re not willing to step out of your comfort zone every once in a while, you’re not going to get that chance to grow…. If somebody offers you an opportunity, unless you know you can’t really put the time into it, say yes. Say yes as often as your schedule will allow because it’s some form of a skill that will help you…. Don’t necessarily go too far backwards, but if something is new, sideways or up…say yes because you never know what skill or what contact or what benefit you’re going to get out of that.” – Erin O’Quinn - John says we’ve boiled down this pattern to “if you’re always comfortable, you are never growing.” - If Erin gets too comfortable, she gets bored. Boredom is her brain’s way of saying she isn’t doing enough and to try something else. + How do we know what we should say no to? - We should not take on more than we can physically do or our time will allow us to do successfully. - If we need to sacrifice quality in our base work for something, it is not something we should do. - For things you really want to do but really don’t have the time, Erin would recommend addressing it with your manager. Communicate the value of what you want to do, and ask if there’s a way to make better use of your time to do it. - Be willing to advocate for yourself with your management in this way. This shows initiative and indicates career growth. It might let your manager know that you’d like to do more or take on more responsibility, and it gives them an opportunity to provide some of that rather than you seeking it elsewhere. - “Don’t be afraid to have the conversation with your manager. If they say no, then you know where they stand, and that’s not a bad thing either because sometimes they are also doing things to protect you. They may know something big is coming, and they don’t want you to take on something you can’t handle because more is coming in short order.” – Erin O’Quinn
Mentioned in the Outro* We can advocate for ourselves or the work we do and its impact / value. + When Erin reached out to local politicians for endorsements, it was about the work and its impact. The story was similar when Erin started helping other teams inside the credit union who did not have support from marketing. She knew her work would be valuable to help them. - When advocating for the work we do, be sure to communicate the work you do and the impact you’re making in 1-1 meetings with your manager. Erin did this, and we think it’s part of the reason she was given more and more responsibilities. + Erin advocated for herself and her career in when taking the role as an executive assistant through the transparent conversation she had with her manager at the time. Erin also advocated for herself when it came to having others show her how to demo products in the booth at a trade show. * We also see an element of how industry expertise can apply to another company not focused on the same industry. + Erin used her knowledge of working at a technology company to help co-workers at the credit union understand technology professionals as an audience to improve the message. + Maybe you have a deep expertise in regulatory compliance or working through audits. Maybe you’ve worked for a service provider or hosting company and can take some of what you have learned to another company to improve their operations. Maybe you worked at a technology vendor or value added reseller and can help improve vendor relationships for the company. + Amy Arnold used her expertise from working in the public sector to be effective in future roles such as pre-sales. Check out these episodes for more of the story. - Episode 281 – Packets Don’t Lie: Quality of Service for Technical Exploration in Network Engineering with Amy Arnold (1/2) - Episode 282 – All the Networking Things: Project Management, Pre-Sales, and Broadening a Technical Specialty with Amy Arnold (2/2)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
How should we be managing our careers during times of uncertainty? News of layoffs and economic uncertainty induces paralyzing fear and anxiety in many of us. What can we really control in the midst of it all, if anything?
This week in episode 329, we’ll talk through a 5-pillar framework with actionable steps you can take now to be more proactive in your career even when it’s a difficult job market. Whether you’re employed and feeling uncertain or recently unemployed, we’ll share prescriptive advice and helpful AI prompts for forward progress so you can work through the challenges and not get frozen in worry. Be sure to check out our free Career Uncertainty Action Guide to access the AI prompts discussed in today’s show.
Original Recording Date: 05-15-2025
Topics – Facing Uncertainty with an Actionable Plan, Pillar 1: Building Financial Resilience, Pillar 2: Maximizing Current Job Performance and Visibility, Pillar 3: Execute Strategic Skill Development, Pillar 4: Effective Networking and Relationship Building, Pillar 5: Managing Your Mindset and Control Your Narrative, AI Prompts and the Call to Action1:30 – Facing Uncertainty with an Actionable Plan* Though not feeling 100% when this was recorded, John and Nick wanted to get this episode on an important topic out in order to help our listeners. * Maybe you’re coming into this episode with a lot of anxiety. + We continue to see news about tech industry layoffs and economic uncertainty. It feels pretty heavy. + We spoke about fear, uncertainty, and how to take control in Episode 70 – Taking Control During Uncertain Times. * Maybe you feel secure but are hearing whispers about layoffs at your company and are beginning to worry. * Maybe you’ve been impacted by a layoff. + We see you. We hear you. * Maybe you’re trying to recession-proof your skills, feel stuck at your current employer, or have become highly specialized and don’t know what to do. * Wherever you happen to be, those feelings are real. The biggest challenge we each have is the risk to job security and financial stability. + Though it may seem wrong, forces outside of our control do affect our careers. + Today our intent is not to sit and dwell on problems like a difficult job market. We’re focusing on a practical plan to help you regain a sense of control with actionable steps you can take to proactively navigate this period. + Our purpose is to provide career advice we wish we’d had earlier in our careers. We want to help listeners accelerate career progression, increase job satisfaction, and be more effective in your existing role. + When things feel unstable and when we see layoffs at our company or in our industry, it’s ok to take more of a defensive approach. + It’s rational to feel anxious when finances and job security are threatened by layoffs or economic uncertainty. It’s ok to feel that way. + We’re here to help channel that energy into proactive career management. * We’ve broken this down into 5 pillars / 5 areas where you can take action starting right now. + Building financial resilience + Maximizing your current job performance and visibility + Executing strategic skill development + Engaging in effective networking and relationship building + Managing your mindset and controlling your narrative
5:01 – Pillar 1: Building Financial Resilience* A buffer against the risk of layoffs and income instability is having a savings account with 3-6 months’ living expenses. + Do you know the real numbers for your household expenses? If you don’t, take time this week to determine what they are. What is that bare bones minimum set of expenses? How long could the savings you have right now actually last based on your expenses? + In Episode 299 – Chronic Stress: Connecting the Dots between Layoffs and Burnout with Cait Donovan Cait Donovan mentioned You Need a Budget or YNAB as one option to help track your expenses. There are certainly other tools to help with this. + Maybe you could decide right now which subscriptions you would cancel or what you would stop spending on if your source of income was suddenly cut (i.e. job loss). + We covered some of these items in Episode 57 – Preparing for Unexpected Opportunities Part 5 – Personal Finance. + Having a liquid savings account that you can easily access and eliminating high interest debt will bring greater peace of mind if something happens to your job. + John is thankful for the jobs and roles he’s had over time enabled him to build an emergency fund. He shares how much peace of mind it brought after being laid off from Google in 2023. Catch the full story on that in Episode 220 – John Got Fired. - “It let me basically wake up, read the termination e-mail, and go back to sleep. I didn’t even wake up my wife to let her know. This is not great news, but we are in a financial position to survive. And it’s not a problem.” – John White, on the peace of mind that comes from having an emergency fund + Nick mentions he’s had success with building up savings by making it automatic. Maybe you could make an automatic draft from each paycheck to consistently save more starting right now. - John mentions he has a separate savings account for his emergency fund that money goes into every time he gets paid. It’s a great psychological barrier to spending any of it. - Having an emergency fund in an account that is separate from everything else is step 1. Once you have started this and are contributing to it, then you can begin shopping for a high yield savings account which could earn you something on an annual basis. * It’s important to know and understand the benefits you’re getting from your employer. + Do you know, for example, what the company policy is on severance packages in the event that they have layoffs? Is that in an employee handbook somewhere? + Consider the cost of things like COBRA in your state (continued health insurance after job loss for a period of time). Expect an increase from what you were paying through your employer. + In the case of a mass layoff, there may be a 60-day WARN period in your state. Do some research on this. John mentions if it’s a small layoff, the company may not be required to do this. + Make sure you understand the vesting schedule for any applicable retirement accounts tied to your employer or RSUs (restricted stock units) that are part of your compensation package. + We’ve created a guide that we will reference again a little bit later in the discussion. - In the guide is an AI prompt focused on finances that you can use with ChatGPT, Claude, or your favorite generative AI tool. This prompt will interview you to help work through assessing the current state of your finances (which is often a high stakes emotional process). It considers things like understanding savings, retirement funds, current cost of living, and what you could cut out in an emergency. The prompt also has some examples of how the conversation might go. We hope you find it helpful! - The link to our uncertainty guide and a link to the above prompt can be found here: nerd-journey.com/uncertaintyguide.
10:50 – Pillar 2: Maximizing Current Job Performance and Visibility* Our best defense against being let go or laid off is demonstrating that we are providing value to the organization. Visibility builds internal leverage and credibility in both uncertain times and in more prosperous times. + Ideally, we want our personal brand and reputation to stand on its own and make people hesitate to cut us because of our importance to the organization. * Action points for this pillar… + We talked about some of this in Episode 70 – Taking Control During Uncertain Times, and it’s worth your time to go back and listen. + Track your accomplishments, and focus on the quantifiable results you have delivered or the impact you’ve made. Quantify whenever possible! + Think about reduced process time, value delivered to a project, etc. + Leverage feedback from others to quantify your impact. + Think about how you can be valuable and adaptable. What is the unique combination of skills you use to bring value to the organization? + Proactively make your impact known by: - Giving your manager updates - Sharing wins in team meetings when appropriate (not in a boastful way) and offering to help others - Documenting your contributions + Documenting our accomplishments / contributions is the required input to be able to tell the story of what you are doing. - Remember that writing is thinking as we discussed with guest Josh Duffney back in Episode 156 – Better Notes, Better You with Josh Duffney (1/2) and helps us formulate the way to say things. - We should be sharing our accomplishments with our manager in 1-1 discussions. That would not be the entire conversation, but if you can share something that worked really well, share it. - Keep a copy of your accomplishments saved somewhere in your personal files so you have access should you be separated from your company. - Documented accomplishments should translate to bullet points on your private resume or LinkedIn describing the quantified results. - John suggests we consider practicing the 30-60 second value statement out loud so we can easily explain it if someone asks. - It’s important to understand whether you are or are not delivering value to the organization. One way to get feedback on this is sharing with your boss. If your boss says something wasn’t valuable, at least you will know. - An episode that pairs nicely with this advice is Episode 284 – Draft Your Narrative: Writing and Building a Technical Portfolio with Jason Belk (2/2). + It’s important to acknowledge that we can follow all the advice given in this episode very well, be valuable to an organization, and still be impacted by a layoff. - The advice we’re sharing is critically important because if you are terminated, the work you have done turns into something that builds your resume with quantifiable value statements that you can demonstrate and speak to effectively. From there you can customize your resume for an application based on what they are looking for in the job description. It’s worth putting in the effort now.
15:31 – Pillar 3: Execute Strategic Skill Development* We want to give ourselves industry longevity in our careers and increase the optionality, regardless of whether we stay at a company or go elsewhere. * Think about the key skills you have today. What will be resilient and valuable in the market? + Maybe it’s knowledge of public cloud technologies, a scripting language or automation framework, cybersecurity concepts and principles, or foundational awareness of AI (artificial intelligence) and machine learning. Don’t overlook the fundamentals! + As you think through the skills you want to build or sharpen, consider the following: - What will help you be better at your job right now and prepare you for a future opportunity? - Is the skill area you’re looking at focused on a technology your company already uses and plans to use long term? Do you need to go deeper in this area or learn more about it to make what you’re doing more valuable? - Does this focus area provide growth for you? Joseph Griffiths told us in Episode 327 – A Passion for Growth: Storytelling and Interpersonal Skills with Joseph Griffiths (1/2) that growth can take different forms throughout our careers. Growth for you may mean technical skills, but it could also be communication skills. - Will the skills you are building be valuable to other companies? Investigate job descriptions to get feedback on the skill(s) to intend to sharpen or build before taking action. Look at job descriptions for roles similar to yours, closely related to yours, or something you aspire to do. Each job description will have required skills that you might not have today. - Nick says you’re looking for a double check mark. + How can you execute on either building a new skill or sharpening an existing one? - Employer training budgets – do you have funds from your employer to use for this purpose? - If paying for training yourself, consider cost-effective options like Pluralsight, Udemy, Coursera, or many others. Consider free options like YouTube as well. - What if you blocked 2-3 hours of your week for learning? Maybe it’s during work hours, but maybe it’s on your own time. Be consistent, and treat it like an important meeting you cannot miss to build skills over time. - John mentioned a resource called Google Cloud Skills Boost that is somewhat neutral in its technology approach which helps you learn transferrable skills even outside Google Cloud technologies. - Many companies have public facing training / lab resources which are free to low cost. + What if you only have limited time for strategic skill building? How does one decide what to learn? - If you had a list of 3-4 things that give you the double check mark as we discussed, you should think about which one is most valuable to both what you do today and what would be next (i.e. longevity in the market). - Nick suggests weighing value to your current employer at 60%. It’s important to be good at what you do to continue doing it for the time being. - John says this also depends on how uncertain you feel about your position. If your company is having consistent layoffs and things in your role feel very uncertain, for example, you may want to prioritize the skills that are more valuable in the job market. It’s important to tailor the selections to your situation. - Also consider your learning style. Do you prefer to start with going as deep as you can in a new area or with a high-level conceptual overview? - Think about technology waves and trends. What is interesting to you? What is real vs. just hype? Consider investigating areas that might be the next technology wave. * These suggestions are great to keep in mind as we proceed to the next pillar.
21:46 – Pillar 4: Effective Networking and Relationship Building* Invest in this now because your network is your safety net, information source, and opportunity, engine. It becomes even more important when things are uncertain. + John references an epidemic of AI-generated resumes and AI screening tools that’s causing a bit of a grid lock. Employee referrals are even more important now. + Remember the people who refer you for a job role are going to get asked about your strengths and if you are a fit for a specific role. + Even an indirect referral such as someone telling you a company is hiring for a specific type of role is helpful. You can investigate this role, see who you might know at the company, and determine if you might be a fit. + We don’t want to start building a network when we begin to feel uncertain, but if that’s you, now is a great time to begin. We want to do it consistently and continuously over time if possible. + We want to nurture network connections but adapt to what is happening right now. John recommends leading with empathy and checking in on people in your network. Ask how they are doing right now. Offer to help or share relevant information before you ask for anything. + Don’t forget to do networking inside your company. Understand the challenges of others outside your team. Who are those leaders within the greater company that you might be interested in working for? - Many times, in an economic-based layoff, people will be given time to find other roles within the organization upon being terminated. + For networking external to your company, LinkedIn is extremely valuable. Consider participating in online / in-person communities related to your job or the technology you use. Stay engaged with these communities! + Actions you can take… - Identify 3 people in your network that you haven’t spoken to recently. Reach out this month just to connect with them and see how they are doing. - Nick suggests combining this with pillar 3 and asking people what they are learning about and why they are learning about it. This is not asking for a job referral but rather a curiosity and opportunity for feedback on what you want to learn / the skills you plan to develop. - John went to LinkedIn and downloaded his connections to a CSV file. He chose a few different people at random to contact based on the strength of connection to that person. This exercise only costs you time. Each person you contact will have a different perspective on the job market, the technology community at large, and the skills that are needed to thrive within it. It provides a diversity of thought that we can learn from. - John would highly encourage a similar process for you. Start with people you can think of inside your network, and don’t forget to choose some people randomly. - For more tips on professional networking, check out this recent episode for advice – Episode 307 – Sales Skills: Professional Networking and Continued Practice with Ramzi Marjaba (1/2).
27:27 – Pillar 5: Managing Your Mindset and Control Your Narrative* The actions we’ve discussed may seem difficult to take. Fear can cause paralysis and lead to poor decisions. * It’s ok to feel fear, but we want to shift our focus to the controllable things we discussed in pillars 1-4. Combat paralysis and inaction by taking action. Consider breaking larger tasks into smaller tasks. + If you need to update your resume, it might seem like a mountainous task. What’s the smallest possible step? Maybe it’s updating a job title. Could you schedule 15 minutes to do that today? + Even small progress is still progress that we can celebrate. It’s about small, incremental gains over time. + See also our discussions on Finish by Jon Acuff with guest host Jason Gass, specifically the one about using data to celebrate progress: - Episode 272 – Book Discussion: Finish, Part 1 – The Day after Perfect and Cut Your Goal in Half - Episode 273 – Book Discussion: Finish, Part 2 – Deliberate Time Investments and Avoiding Distractions - Episode 274 – Book Discussion: Finish, Part 3 – Get Rid of Your Secret Rules and Use Data to Celebrate Your Imperfect Progress - Episode 275 – Book Discussion: Finish, Part 4 – The Day before Done and Perfectionism’s Final Roadblocks + Try reframing your perspective. - Could this time of uncertainty push you to learn something new you had deprioritized? - What if this leads to a role that is a better fit for you? - If nervous or anxious energy keeps you up at night, what if you worked on learning something fun for an hour to make yourself tired? Reading a book is a great way to learn and to wind down in the evening. + John recently took some time to reboot his blog site – vjourneyman.com and made a blog post describing the way he setup the new site. - When John started, he wasn’t even sure his WordPress site was still running. But he broke the task down into smaller pieces, eventually changing to a static site instead of just a WordPress site. - John says it was a fun small project he did on his own time that got him energized to write more content. The energy carried through to his day job, and he’s been energized to write more content moving forward as a result. John mentions an article he’s working on about effective use of AI prompts. Stay tuned for that once it is published! - Nick says when he takes a break to work on podcast stuff he can feel a difference in energy. + John and Nick remind listeners that they are not immune to times of uncertainty. John’s blog project is an example of something he did to energize and empower himself. - John is also modeling a pattern we’ve seen – developing proof of work / learning in public. We talked about learning something new in pillar 3. If you’re learning something new, could you write about it and publish what you learned or put your scripts on GitHub? - Think about what you can generate that is public facing so people can understand what you’re learning and how you think. This is one way to own your story. John’s blog project illustrates adaptability, resilience, and proactivity. He built a new blog site and is planning to write content on topics he’s not previously written about. * When the task list gets long, it’s hard to decide what you should do next. Sometimes we just need to pick something we can finish instead of spending energy picking which thing. + If something is easily classifiable as in the top 5 things we need to do, it’s fine to go ahead and do it. + If someone needs to reclassify your tasks and let you know something is an emergency, you will probably hear from them.
34:17 – AI Prompts and the Call to Action* John created an AI prompt to help with our mindset. + This is another outcome from John’s tinkering with generative AI. He prefers Google Gemini, but the tool doesn’t matter so much for you. + The mindset prompt can be found in the uncertainty guide. Copy and paste it into your generative AI tool of choice. + The prompt will instruct the AI to be a helper and motivator for you and help unfreeze you. It will interact with and brainstorm with you on the most important actions to take a positive step forward and could even create a prioritized checklist for you. The page on our site containing the prompt will have an example output for reference. Your interaction will be unique to you based on the answers you provide. + Remember this does not have to be perfect and that something is better than nothing. + If you do use the prompt, we’d love your feedback! Reach out to John or Nick on LinkedIn or e-mail us – nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com. * Your action challenge is to visit nerd-journey.com/uncertaintyguide to download the free career uncertainty action guide which includes the advice from today’s episode with checklists and AI prompts to help you. + The resources inside the uncertainty guide are divided into two categories – employed but feeling uncertain or recently unemployed. + This is about helping people. If you can help us, help people, we’d really appreciate that. + Remember we also have a Layoff Resources Page that you can utilize. * We believe you can do things to influence your career path even during difficult times. You cannot control everything, but you CAN control what you do. So, what will you do?
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
Your manager has a preoccupation, but do you know what it is? The answer reveals a clue about their focus and the culture this manager will foster.
Join us in episode 328 as Joseph Griffiths shares advice for making 1-1s with your manager and skip-level manager more productive, guidance for the aspiring managers listening, and observations from managing both technical and sales teams. We look at all this through the lens of a manager’s focused prioritization, the difficult part of being consistent, and the reasons we should all use boundaries and limits to improve the quality of our work.
Original Recording Date: 04-17-2025
Joseph Griffiths is a tech industry veteran with experience across technical sales, enterprise architecture, and systems administration. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Joseph, check out Episode 327 – A Passion for Growth: Storytelling and Interpersonal Skills with Joseph Griffiths (1/2).
Topics – Optimizing 1-1 Meetings with Your Manager, Priorities as a Manager, Observations from Managing Different Personas, Manager Preoccupations and Culture Indicators, Advice for Future Managers2:55 – Optimizing 1-1 Meetings with Your Manager* What would Joseph tell the individual contributor who isn’t used to 1-1 meetings with their manager or doesn’t know how to leverage them effectively? + “Everyone appreciates a human perspective…. If I as a manager come to the table and say, ‘here’s my agenda for the 1-1 that I expect you to do every week,’ it’s going to be real hard to come to me and be honest about the things you’re struggling with. It’s really, really hard to talk to someone who’s only business. As a manager it’s a lot easier if I just keep it business because then if issues happen or stuff it’s less emotional entanglement. But I think it’s the wrong way to do it. My job is to serve the people. My goal for 1-1 was to first breed trust and comfort.” – Joseph Griffiths + The secondary goal of Joseph’s 1-1s was to allow the individual to share items that require his help, encouraging honesty about the challenges. + Sometimes, a manager does need to use the 1-1 to deliver specific information that is best shared 1-1 (i.e. compensation changes, policy changes, etc.). + Joseph usually had 1 thing he wanted to cover with the individual per 1-1. The rest of the meeting was for the individual to control the agenda. + Joseph would recommend we take 5 minutes before a 1-1 with our manager to think about the overarching challenge we’re having rather than what is top of mind. + “It’s very easy to walk into there and come out of a bad meeting the hour before and go, ‘I just had a horrible meeting and this is why.’ But is that really the problem, or should we be talking about something that is bigger or wider or more challenging? I think spending 5 minutes preparing with a OneNote sheet or a Notepad or whatever and just writing down…these are the 3 things that I want to talk about…and I need either some guidance for them or I need you to knock down a wall. That’s another one. Ask your manager to knock down a wall.” – Joseph Griffiths, on 1-1s with your manager - Every manager is different, so you will need to feel things out with your manager when it comes to knocking down walls. + Joseph says we can also bring ideas to the 1-1 for things that might improve the health of the business. - If our manager agrees with our ideas, they can support the ideas and give us greater visibility within the organization. - Joseph mentions when we have an idea, it is unique and special. But it’s also something we are likely to spend extra energy and effort doing. Joseph consistently sought to support innovative ideas from his team members and promote them up to his leaders. This kind of thing makes both the manager and more importantly the individual contributor look good. - People often bring only their problems to their manager, but don’t forget to bring ideas too. + Nick says we could all use more practice thinking about those higher-level problems. Even front-line managers need to do this when communicating with their own managers (i.e. think a level higher). - Joseph tells a story about a friend of his who is a CEO. This person goes to lunch with his team each Friday. Afterward, he gets a pencil and a pad of paper, turns off his cell phone, and goes to a nearby park to think about his business for a few hours. Anything that comes to him gets written on the pad of paper. On Monday morning, the CEO begins executing on the things he thought of while at the park. This exercise allows him to be more proactive. - “I think we could all benefit from turning off the notifiers, turning off the noise, and spending an hour just thinking about where we are and actually making some plans. That proactivity is missing…. The notifiers in the world that we live in are very dopamine driven by trying to get you to react…. We get so busy that we’re reacting to everything that we don’t take time to think, and then we don’t prioritize the most important activities….” – Joseph Griffiths, on a CEO friend’s proactivity - It’s easy to be overly busy. Someone once told Joseph, “Busy is the new stupid.” While he did not understand it at the time, he certainly does now. - Take 5-10 minutes before 1-1s to think about what you want to say. These 1-1s are opportunities to expand your influence. Take advantage! * What about 1-1s with a skip level leader? + Joseph encourages us to get a human connection with them just like you would with a customer. This could be the sports team they like or something else. A human connection opens the door to more conversations in the future. + “You don’t want to stand around and complain…not a good move. You want to have a conversation that leaves that person thinking, ‘this is a really smart person. This is a person who is doing really good work.’ So, the best thing you can bring to that are stories of things that are going well with your customers in sales or going well with your job function. Those stories are going to be something that they take away from that and share with other people. You’re going to be giving them value…human connection and value are the 2 things you want to provide in that skip-level.” – Joseph Griffiths + Second-line managers have direct reports who are managers. They have heard about all the problems and know what is going on because they talk about them daily. Joseph says the skip-level 1-1 is not an opportunity to illustrate problems.
9:42 – Priorities as a Manager* How do you optimize your tasks as a manager and focus on the right things? This is something from Nick’s perspective, Joseph did very well as a manager. + “It is really easy to get engaged in lots of things and doing lots of things ok. It’s much harder to be engaged in a few things and do them spectacularly. In any company we work for we will have millions of opportunities to do things. We need to choose to do the things that are, number 1, aligned with the role that we have…what we’re getting paid to do…and secondarily the things that have the highest overall payoff for the effort.” – Joseph Griffiths + As a technical sales manager, Joseph had a key performance metric – the quota. It’s the only measurement that matters in sales. - Joseph also had a team, and he had customers (the company’s customers). - He often had to ask how what he was doing helped him hit the quota. - There is a natural quarterly cadence in sales. There are a number of activities which happen automatically as a part of this cadence. - “It can get very easy to just follow the cadence like you’re riding up and down a hill. And cadence is actually good. What you need to do is understand what you have to insert into the cadence to achieve the results of your KPI.” – Joseph Griffiths - If Joseph knew his team would need 60 days to perform a necessary task in the sales cycle, he would plan for them to start those activities 180 days in advance, so everything is complete before it’s time for deal management. - Sales can be somewhat unpredictable, so you then focus on what’s most important. + “For me, my first job as a manager is the people that report to me. They are the most important thing.” – Joseph Griffiths - Joseph shares the story of a former manager named Josh. Anytime Joseph would call Josh, he would pick up the phone and tell Joseph “I have as much time as you need.” It wasn’t that Josh wasn’t busy. He just made time for the most important things. - We should prioritize things by importance and let other things slide by. Joseph could vacuum his floor every day, but he doesn’t. He puts up with dirt for a couple of days and then vacuums. That is prioritization. - Prioritize by importance within your job function. This principle does not change regardless of your job level (individual contributor, manager, vice president, owner of the company, etc.). Delegate to others if it is their job, and let them fail if needed. * Do we lose sight of what the priorities are because of having too many tasks? + Joseph says it’s negative aversion. We don’t like to say no and are afraid we will be perceived negatively if we do. + We can lose sight of priorities at times, but it’s challenging to say no to things. + Joseph once had a manager named Adam who told him, “You need to learn the great art of no, however…. You need to learn that because everything to you is, ‘yes and I’ll do it myself.’” + Joseph doesn’t suggest we directly say no. We can be helpful without taking on things as a personal challenge. People don’t want to be seen as the one who says no or that they can’t do something. People also don’t want to be seen as someone who is overloaded. Both are triggers to people telling themselves they are unreliable. + “As a society, Americans are people pleasers.” – Joseph Griffiths
15:12 – Observations from Managing Different Personas* At technology vendors, there is normally a team of salespeople managed by a sales leader and a team of sales engineers managed by a technical leader. At times in his career, Joseph as the technical leader has needed to help manage both teams. What were some of the nuances of managing the technical side and the sales side that Joseph learned? + Joseph has needed to do this 4 times as a manager, and in every case, his business partners had incredible sales teams. + “The people I was working with were really good, really mature, and knew what they were doing. For the most part, I don’t know that they needed that much management.” – Joseph Griffiths, on filling in to manage a team of salespeople + Joseph says salespeople are often more willing to express emotion, frustration, and challenge. Contrast this with technical people Joseph worked with who would bottle it up and go take it out some other way. + “It was not unusual for one of the salespeople to call me up and yell at me. I never had that experience with my technical sales team…. They would yell at me and just need to vent the emotion. And after they’d get that venting of emotion out, then we could have a conversation about what the problem is and how we can fix it.” – Joseph Griffiths + Joseph observed that when salespeople came to him, they had already tried a number of avenues to solve a problem with no luck, and they expected immediate action. His technical team, by contrast, would usually give more advance notice of a problem. - What salespeople needed was for Joseph to understand the problem, assure them he would help figure out a solution, and then get them to a solution. + Joseph also noticed salespeople were experts at using manipulation and emotion to get what they need. They approached conversations as a negotiation, which was not something Joseph’s technical team did. It took him a little time to get used to this approach. + “That’s just my limited experience observations. I loved working with sellers. I have so much respect for them because they do some of the hardest jobs. They find 999 noes before they find a yes, yet they get up every morning and go find that yes. And they get up every morning and keep pushing…. I couldn’t be more proud of the people I’ve worked with and how hard that is to do every day because I can’t do it every day, but they did it. They are amazing, amazing people. Probably the most resilient people we’ll meet on this earth are salespeople. I don’t know anybody else who can get beat up that much on a regular basis from both directions, both their management and their customers, and still keep getting up every morning. But they do it.” – Joseph Griffiths * How does this differ from the technical team Joseph managed? + The technical team didn’t normally bring problems in an emotional state. It was more about communicating the logical problem and sharing a potential solution. + “Technical people want to learn skills. Salespeople want to be inspired…. It’s interesting to see the difference in development models. What I really need to do is just inspire people that it’s possible and give them the tools to go inspire their customers. That’s what salespeople need. Technical people…they need to feel confident about the solution. They need to feel confident about the capabilities that we’re offering and how we’re doing it.” – Joseph Griffiths + A salesperson practices their craft most of the time by doing their job. A technical person might practice their craft by tinkering in a lab environment, reading a book, or something else. + Suppose you provide a great sales pitch to a salesperson. They can repeat it and sell it. A technical person will, after hearing a great sales pitch, want to know how the solution works.
20:09 – Manager Preoccupations and Culture Indicators* How has Joseph built a positive team culture during his time as a manager, including when he first started and during times of uncertainty (i.e. a pandemic)? + Joseph mentions a researcher who created a culture indicator and made the claim that “culture is set by the first-level manager and their preoccupation.” There are 3 preoccupations for front-line managers. They reflect how easily information flows within an organization. - Power – gaining more of it - Rules – following the rules - Mission of the company – achieving it + Startups, for example, are mission-based organizations. Communication is wide open from the CEO down, and employees have many different responsibilities. + The US military is a good example of a rules-based organization. There are rules for how much water to drink, what time you eat and sleep, and other things that make up a day’s schedule, etc. Operating on rules brings consistency of operation at a wide scale. - “Every captain of every boat in the sea knows exactly what they’re supposed to do and where their orders are supposed to come from. It’s a very good structure for executing the same everywhere.” – Joseph Griffiths + The one we see most often in corporate America is the manager pre-occupied with power / progressing up to the next level of leader. - “They (companies) have all these things that they do to try to promote their culture. None of that matters if your boss is pre-occupied with getting their next job because that culture does not exist for you under that structure. Yes, the rest of the company had that. You don’t. The interesting challenge is yes, CEOs can set culture, but I wish more companies would spend more time ensuring that they have healthy culture at the first-line manager level because that’s where it really matters. And the problem is the mission, the culture of the company, rarely becomes the mission of the individual managers, especially in larger corporations…. I believed that when I was a first-line manager, that was the best place to establish culture, and that culture existed in my team and couldn’t go wider than that.” – Joseph Griffiths + Managers pre-occupied with power don’t usually want to expand their team culture wider. It is their own desire to advance. - Power-based culture is based on controlling the information (a selfish scenario). - Motivations for being pre-occupied with power could be due to fear, because it’s the only way the person has ever known, or that it’s the best way to gain the next job. - “Individual motivation is individual. It’s about preoccupation. If you have a manager that’s only pre-occupied with making themselves look good, it’s pretty obvious to you pretty quickly. And you’re just going to hope they go away eventually.” – Joseph Griffiths * Was it easy for Joseph during his time as a manager to observe these preoccupations in his peers who were also managers? + Joseph says we can observe it in others this way, but he was fortunate to be surrounded by peers focused mostly on the mission of the company and creating great cultures for their teams. + “A lot of that is because our manager at the time, at that first round of hiring, was incredible at building that culture. So that was the preoccupation of that manager, and it became obvious in the people that she was hiring. This is where it does matter is the preoccupation…as a first-line manager, my boss’s preoccupation also affects my experience. Same thing just one level higher…every level creates its culture. Are we a collaborative culture that we’re working together to try to win together, or are we in competition against each other for who can do best?” – Joseph Griffiths + Joseph defines culture as a preoccupation with something. + “What are you pre-occupied with every day? That’s your real culture. We have lots of things that we profess to be culture, but when you sit down and you don’t have anything else you have to do, what do you do? You’ll figure out what your culture is pretty quick.” – Joseph Griffiths + The question about preoccupation is an interesting one we can ask ourselves. + Joseph says a lot of time is spent worrying about company culture, especially in hiring practices. Some companies have a top-level preoccupation with making money and nothing else, while others may have a top-level preoccupation with selling products and trying to do the right thing for the world in which we live. + “It’s very hard to be a great manager in a terrible top-level culture…. Experiencing in our local area is one thing. What do we have above us that’s creating an overarching pressure on that? It’s very hard if you’re in a highly rules-based organization…trying to build a culture of mission-based focus can be challenging.” – Joseph Griffiths + Joseph recommends 2 books by Mike Abrashoff describing how he revolutionized the Navy (one of the worst performing ships in the Navy) through changing the culture to a mission-based culture while still following the rules: - It’s Our Ship: The No-Nonsense Guide to Leadership - It’s Your Ship + Joseph shares a story from one of the Mike Abrashoff books. On Sundays there would be a meal for the entire crew on the deck of the ship. The officers would cut in front of the lower ranking service people in the food line. Captain Abrashoff went to the front of the line and started handing out plates and was the last person to get his food that first Sunday on the ship. - This was Abrashoff’s initial step toward changing the culture from the top level, changing a rules-based organization into a mission-based organization.
28:57 – Advice for Future Managers* If someone is passionate about changing the culture of a team / organization, should they become a manager? + “How about the inverse? If you’re considering being a manager, you should think about what kind of manager you want to be. And you should probably base it on…an investigation of the managers you’ve most liked working for and the ones you have not liked working for and figure out what those differences are…. For me, it’s do more of the positive. Don’t do any of the negative.” – Joseph Griffiths + Joseph remembers a discussion he had with one of his first managers at VMware. Here’s what Joseph wanted to know. - What did all the good managers you’ve ever had have in common? It was a specific set of behaviors. - What did all the bad managers you’ve ever had have in common? This was also a specific set of behaviors. + Joseph’s daughter works at Taco Bell and is currently getting insights already into what she does and does not like in managers. The assistant managers at the store are also very young and inexperienced. + “Think about the times when you’ve done the most work, when you’ve grown the most. You probably connect that, generally, with a really good manager…. Sometimes it’s just a situation where you’ve been forced to grow by discomfort, which also happens. But I prefer to grow by comfort, feeling trusted. Should you think that you want to change the culture and that’s why you should become a manager, teams have their own culture with them as well. Some teams have a culture of cutthroat let’s win no matter what individually. Some of them want to help each other out…. It’s going to take time to change one culture to the other, and you can’t get too frustrated by that. Mike Abrashoff didn’t fix the boat in 1 week. It took him 9 months.” – Joseph Griffiths * Should people be thinking about the time and effort required to become a manager before taking on the role? Should we assume it will automatically be more than being an individual contributor? + Joseph learned his manager Josh had many things to do but chose to give attention only to the most important things. + Joseph shares a story from his time at IBM working as a consultant for a large, multi-tenant service provider. His wife came to an office lunch event, and it turns out people had a huge misconception about how much work Joseph was forced to bring home as a result of the role he had. Joseph’s wife told his co-workers he didn’t bring work home outside of handling critical outage situations. + “We, especially since COVID, have consistently allowed our lives to blend.” – Joseph Griffiths + Joseph would work past 5 PM as a manager only for customer events (part of working in sales) and for total meltdown problems. There were very few total meltdown problems over the course of 3 years. Most days he was finished by 5 PM. - Joseph would block 4-5 PM each day for administrative catch-up work, only accepting meetings during that time if they were critical. - “I think that we get way more done when we give ourselves limits, when we have balance…. I’m a firm believer that we’ve got to create boundaries so that we allow for the things to happen that need to happen in our lives. And when those boundaries become blurred, we produce far less. We are less sharp. We’re less available. We’re less there. We do not get more done by more hours. We get less done.” – Joseph Griffiths - In our previous discussions with Joseph about VCDX, he shared that 1 extra hour in his day helped him accomplish that goal over a 9-month period. + Much like Josh, Joseph had to spend his time on the things that were priority. Since he worked in sales, customers came first over anything else, and that priority was the same for members of Joseph’s team. * Nick says people seeking leadership / management roles need to learn to set the limits and boundaries as Joseph said, but they should also be modeling this for their team. + Nick shares a story about how Joseph modeled this idea of boundaries and limits for him. You can hear more of this story in Episode 179, but there was a specific year during which Nick had to work during a holiday. Joseph told Nick there was no need for him to work on a company holiday, and if something was an emergency, he should call Joseph and let him take care of it. + “I do think that we will wake up after the 40 years of working and ask ourselves a question of who we’ve become, and I hope we like the answer. My answer is not going to be I’ve become a great sales leader. My answer is going to be the person, the character that I’ve developed. And part of that is learning to balance the priorities…. The challenging thing that we look at in our lives is balancing those things, and it does help when we are the same person at work as we are at home…. I think that there are times where we’re tempted to do things that are outside of our values and character in our employment in order to get ahead, and I think those are very dangerous things. Be true to yourself. I’m a big fan of character…. I encourage people to spend time thinking about the person they want to be at the end of those 40 years because you don’t want to be a 65-year-old retiree who doesn’t like yourself. It’s not a good place.” – Joseph Griffiths * Joseph recommends everyone strongly consider their motivations before becoming a manager. + Being a manager is one of the most thankless jobs someone will have. + It’s easy to measure the impact of individual contributor actions / behaviors like a presentation, a project, etc. As a leader, it is much harder to measure these things. + “I measured my success as a leader in how hard it was to leave that job. If it was hard for me, that means I did it right. If it was easy for me to leave the job, I didn’t do it right. Think about that before you get into management because we need great managers who are dedicated to lifting other people up. We don’t need more managers that are dedicated to their careers.” – Joseph Griffiths + Joseph would love to see more managers who lift others up and celebrate the differences people on the team bring. He appreciates how different the members of his team were and appreciates getting to learn from those differences.
Mentioned in the Outro* Are you having regular 1-1s with your manager? + If you are, how regular are these meetings? Are they in-person or remote? + Consider approaching these meetings mindfully, and put some thought into what you want to discuss during that time beforehand like Joseph recommended…especially if you are part of a large team and have limited time with your manager. + Could you write down 3 things you’d like to talk about with your manager in advance of your next 1-1? Spend time thinking, even if it’s 15 to 20 minutes. + This is also a time to bring ideas. Maybe you have an idea for how to do something differently or a project you’d like to work on. This time with your manager can help you determine the value of your idea to the team or the organization, and even if it is not, at least you know. It may just mean you haven’t clearly articulated the value of what you are proposing. + Consider taking notes during these meetings. * This discussion with Joseph aligns with what we heard from Leanne Elliot in Episode 238 – Managers as Culture Keepers with Leanne Elliott (2/2) about managers being culture keepers. * Are you considering people management? Think about the actions and behaviors of both the good and bad managers you’ve had. Then ask several people you know the same question to get a nice list of what each type of manager looks like. For some examples of the actions and behaviors of good managers, check out these episodes: + Episode 115 – High Flyers, Solid Players, and A Good Manager with Jeff Eberhard (1/2) + Episode 138 – Apprentice, Amplifier, and People Developer with Don Jones (2/2) + E-mail us the actions and behaviors of the best managers you’ve had, and we will read them on the air in a future episode!
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
How well do your personal and professional life align to your passion areas? For returning guest Joseph Griffiths, seeking mentorship helped uncover his core passions (service, honesty, faith, and growth) and fueled the decision to pursue people management.
This week in Episode 327, Joseph details his transition from solutions architect to business solution strategist and why he sought mentorship along the way. You’ll hear about the impact of storytelling in executive conversations and job interviews as well as the concept of a value hypothesis. Joseph shares a perspective on management interviews, leading seasoned teams, and the critical nature of interpersonal skills for career advancement.
Original Recording Date: 04-17-2025
Topics – Joseph Griffiths Returns, Storytelling and Conversations with Executives, Discovering Passion Areas, Management Interviews and Interpersonal Challenges, A Passion for Growth over Technology, Leading a Familiar Team and Progressing as a Manager2:15 – Joseph Griffiths Returns* Joseph Griffiths has worked in technical sales in some form for the last 10 years. Before that, he worked for a multi-tenant service provider and the state of Ohio as a systems administrator and enterprise architect. * Joseph last joined us as a guest in Episode 18a and Episode 18b. At that time, we spoke to Joseph about his experience as a solutions architect. We wanted to learn more about what made Joseph want to pursue people leadership within technical sales. * Full disclosure – Joseph was Nick’s manager up until about 4-5 months before this recording took place. But Joseph and Nick knew each other for many years before Joseph became Nick’s manager. Nick invited him to speak at Spiceworks user group events, for example.
3:55 – Storytelling and Conversations with Executives* Going back to when Joseph was a solutions architect, his role was focused on understanding the pain and gain from a business perspective for customers. + He would often run workshops to understand the current state (pains that exist) and build the future state (the gains a customer could get). + As the company changed over time, Joseph’s role changed to business solution strategist. While the role was similar, it had a greater focus on speaking to C-level executives. + Joseph recalls meeting some wonderful people on this team who taught him how to talk to executives and how to do value management. * What was the biggest lesson Joseph had to learn in order to communicate effectively with executives? + “You have about 30 seconds, and you better be talking about money. That’s the short version of it.” – Joseph Griffiths + A good friend of Joseph’s is an assistant CFO at a large corporation, and Joseph decided to pick his brain on how and why certain IT purchases get approved, and others do not. + “And he said, ‘it’s really simple – story and a spreadsheet…. You had better tell me a story that makes sense to my accounting brain, and you better have a spreadsheet that shows me how we’re going to make money, save money, or reduce risk with the spreadsheet…. Those two things put together…if the numbers make sense on the spreadsheet…I’m going to approve it. You come to me with a story about how you’re going to install some new widget, go find the money in your budget. You come to me with a spreadsheet, but the story doesn’t make sense, go find it in your budget. You want money outside of your budget? They better make sense in the form of dollars.’ And so, for me, the biggest thing to learn was I had 30 seconds with a customer to establish why they should keep listening to me, and it’s always dollars.” – Joseph Griffiths, on learning to speak with executives + The executives Joseph would speak with likely would need to sell their ideas to a CFO or CEO to get new purchases approved. The business case has to be about making money (improving revenue or margin, for example) or saving money. + Joseph had to learn to talk in dollars and understand how the money was being used. + This is good advice even if you don’t work in technical sales. Anyone trying to get a purchase approved within their company needs to understand how to speak the language of the decision makers and make an effective business case. - Listen to the example Joseph shares related to putting gourmet coffee machines in gas stations and why someone thought this was a good idea. - “At the end of the day, businesses speak dollars. It doesn’t matter if you cannot convert what you sell into some sort of dollar metric. You’re going to have a hard time getting approval outside of budget times…. If you really want to accelerate a sales cycle of whatever you’re selling…you need to start to talk about to dollars and the impact to the business of the dollars.” – Joseph Griffiths * Was there discomfort in needing to talk about money? + Joseph says it was uncomfortable for him initially and for the team he managed. + The challenge in these situations is we do not have all of the information. Joseph tells us about the idea of a value hypothesis and sharing this with a customer. - “You have a hypothesis of what you think the value is, and it’s going to be wrong. That’s something that…I had to learn early on and sit in front of a customer with the wrong value hypothesis…. I had to be brave enough to put that number in front of them knowing that it’s wrong and having them correct me.” – Joseph Griffiths - This exercise was difficult for Joseph. He wanted what he was sharing to be correct. - But in sharing the detailed value hypothesis with a customer, Joseph was able to learn the real numbers. It creates a conversation and collaboration with the customer to adjust and correct the hypothesis. * Outside of talking about dollars, Joseph has really embraced storytelling in his discussions. What made him put such an emphasis on this skill? + Joseph tells us he’s in the middle of writing a book at the moment. One of the chapters is focused on storytelling. + “Storytelling is elemental to humans as a race. One of the amazing things about storytelling is it allows you to learn something and be surprised, which are both dopamine hits. That’s really critical in our world where everything is centered around dopamine hits.” – Joseph Griffiths + If someone tells us we are doing something wrong, we could be defensive, submissive, or react in any number of ways. It’s not going to motivate us to change. But, if we were told an engaging story about someone who went through something similar and have a realization while hearing the story, it would motivate us to change. + “The real power of stories is you see yourself as the protagonist, and when you see yourself as the protagonist of my story, and I’m leading the journey along, you can come to some very interesting aha moments that are very powerful and motivating for you…. Instantly you want to take that story and tell other people so they can have that same aha moment because every time we have an aha moment we feel smart. We feel like we’ve discovered something amazing.” – Joseph Griffiths - Most religions in the world and their teachings are based around storytelling. - Joseph also tells us that stories have applications at different times in our lives. Stories allow us to use our intelligence to come to some incredible conclusions. - Analogies (a close sibling to storytelling) are also commonly used by technical sales professionals to explain difficult concepts. They are useful to help with understanding but miss the aha moment that comes from using stories. - Joseph would highly recommend using stories in any kind of selling (even if selling a project or idea inside your own company). * After learning to tell stories with dollars, what kind of feedback did Joseph get on his approach from executives he spoke with? + Joseph remembers one instance during his time as a business solution strategist involving the CIO of a company who was near the end of his career. This CIO became very interested in coaching people. After Joseph did a presentation with a value hypothesis at the front of it, the CIO looked at him and said, “That’s impossible.” This was a challenge, and Joseph had to make a decision on what he would do next. + When Joseph pressed forward a little bit, the CIO stopped him and provided the same response. + When Joseph asked why what he proposed was not possible, the CIO provided some of the most useful financial information about the company anyone on the team had learned to that point. It led to a number of sales. + “We have to be able to stop and say, ‘why?’ His why was totally different than I thought it was.” – Joseph Griffiths + After this specific incident, the CIO in question told Joseph he should have stopped the first time and asked why. This CIO continued to provide feedback to Joseph after future conversations. + “That’s one of the biggest dangers…. We’re afraid of those yellow lights or the red lights that come, and we try to speed through them. Never a good idea…just let them talk.” – Joseph Griffiths, on discussions with executives and being challenged + Joseph says some of his stories have not landed with people, but the only way to get better at storytelling is to practice. + Joseph mentions a friend and co-worker of both his and Nick’s joined Toastmasters and improved his storytelling ability. It’s a great place to get some practice.
13:10 – Discovering Passion Areas* Joseph’s role as solution architect and business solution strategist was more of a technical overlay. What titled him toward management? + The answer lies within the things Joseph is passionate about – growth and change, for example. The business solutions strategist forced a lot of growth for Joseph. + Joseph enjoys being of service to others. In his role as an overlay, he was able to serve account teams inside the company and customers. - “I’ve always really found that I am happiest when I’m helping other people.” – Joseph Griffiths - This same desire to be of service has driven a number of Joseph’s colleagues past just being technical workers to working in sales, customer success, or some other similar role. + When COVID hit, the role Joseph was in as a business solution strategist was becoming less and less utilized (less opportunities, less in-person meetings, etc.). - During this time, Joseph found himself struggling to feel happy. He was employed by a company that was doing well and even getting feedback that he was doing well in his role. But Joseph did not feel like he was really being of service to other people. + As Joseph started to explore other career opportunities, he joined a mentoring program. This program allowed mentees (like Joseph) to connect with leaders in different business units for mentoring. - “I’d had lots of mentoring from my business unit people, but it was somebody totally outside of that. His name is Zac. And the first thing Zach had me do was do this survey that helped me understand myself. One of the things I learned from that was…that I’m passionate about growth and service, honesty and faith. Those are my four things that I’m passionate about.” – Joseph Griffiths - Zac had taken the survey earlier in his career and encouraged Joseph to take the survey and fill out a rubric to see how well he was fulfilling his passion areas at home and at work. - “And I saw a lot of gaps there. And so, he and I started exploring other career opportunities that would scratch those gaps that were being missed. I had always had some interest in being in management, but I wanted to do it for the right reason. I wanted to know why I was doing it, not just because it was a logical next step in my career…. As a manager a lot of your job is promoting growth in others, serving them, and helping them look good…not looking good yourself. I always struggled when I was on stage receiving an award. It felt weird. I didn’t like it. I much prefer to see someone else on my team on stage getting an award. That means I did my job right.” – Joseph Griffiths - Zac created formalized mentoring when he worked with Joseph and would ask a lot of open-ended questions so Joseph could talk through different things. - Joseph did seek mentorship from others who provided specific, prescriptive guidance. He tells us the combination of both approaches is exactly what was needed. + Working with mentors helped Joseph understand he needed to try people management. - “You owe it to yourself to try it once in your career and see if it’s something you like doing or not.” – Joseph Griffiths, quoting a friend’s advice + Nick has heard that in many ways, being a people manager is analogous to being a parent. We cannot fully understand what it is like until we do it. - Joseph says as a parent there is a need for authoritative control and direct teaching. - Joseph tells us the teams he managed were comprised of people who were highly capable. His job was to provide guidance to team members and promote growth in areas that were blind spots. - “I was blessed with a very mature team and a team of people who were very good at their jobs and had been doing it for quite some time. Because of that, my management was very different than a bunch of college graduates…. I guess a lot of that depends on your situation, but I didn’t use a lot of authoritative power with my team. It was not necessary or helpful. I spent a lot more time telling them that I trusted them and just trying to remove roadblocks for them.” – Joseph Griffiths
18:11 – Management Interviews and Interpersonal Challenges* What was the interview for a management role like for Joseph compared to when he interviewed for an individual contributor role? + Joseph had worked with some of the people who would be interviewing him when he was a business solution strategist, and they were kind enough to provide some guidance. + When interviewing for a people manager role, there’s a pretty strong expectation that you will bring a visual or a set of slides to the interview. It should cover areas like your management style, what you want to do in your 30-60-90-day plan, and an overview of who you are. + “They want to see that you came prepared to tell them who you are, why you want the job, and what your plan is once you get it.” – Joseph Griffiths, on management interview expectations + After getting specific guidance from a co-worker, Joseph created a presentation to use in the manager role job interviews. + Joseph would recommend answering questions with stories or examples rather than a simple yes or no. Stories land much better with the interviewer regardless of the job you’re seeking. + Being a manager does not mean you need to be a robot. You can have emotions about things. In one round of interviews for a people manager role, Joseph remembers being asked what he was most scared of. - At this moment, Joseph shared a story about a conversation he’d had the previous day with a co-worker. The co-worker was a woman who was getting harassed at work and needed advice. Joseph listened carefully, provided some suggestions (i.e. that the woman share the situation with her manager for support and help, etc.), and offered to take another call if the person needed to speak further. What scared Joseph the most was having a future employee call him in that same situation. It was an emotional moment during the interview. - “Those are the kind of things you have to think about. What are you going to run into, and do you want to deal with that? The one thing about being a manager is your job moves from dealing with customers to dealing with interpersonal problems. Ninety-five percent of your work, the stuff you have to deal with is interpersonal…and that stuff’s hard.” – Joseph Griffiths * Was Joseph trying to help people with interpersonal problems regularly even before he was a manager? + Yes – Joseph found himself doing this regularly as an extension of his desire to be of service to others. He has helped others in this way for most of his career. + Joseph tells us most any book about advancing your career will have a chapter or section about interpersonal issues. - He remembers reading a book about an executive coach that the board of directors would hire at a company to help work through an interpersonal issue (i.e. a CFO or COO who is a problem). - “The problem is always they have a blind side in understanding how their behavior impacts those around them negatively. So, the higher you get in your career in a company, the more it becomes about interpersonal capabilities and your ability to influence others and less about what you can do. And that’s the reality of the world. We get paid for our ability to deal with interpersonal challenges not our ability to be the smartest person on the earth.” – Joseph Griffiths
23:07 – A Passion for Growth over Technology* Joseph is someone we know who has achieved multiple VCDX certifications in the past. Was there any point at which Joseph was afraid of losing technical chops during the transition to focus on the interpersonal issues that come with being a people manager? + Joseph reminds us that technology continues to change. Around 4 years ago many people were focused on blockchain. Right now, and probably in the near future people are focused on AI. We’re not certain exactly what it will be like in 5 years. + “The reality is that technology changes very fast, and you can’t keep up. No one can. What you can do is have a foundation of understanding how technology works and educate yourself as you’re going along.” – Joseph Griffiths + Joseph says he was the most technical when he was working to configure servers, network, and storage every day. That was 10 years ago. Though Joseph’s technical chops have been going down since that time, his salary has been going up. While there is nothing wrong with being someone who is extremely technical, Joseph believes interpersonal skills will be more valuable from a compensation perspective in the long run. + “At the end of the day, I’ve never been concerned about becoming less technical as long as I’m growing. Because remember, one of my passions is growth…and it doesn’t have to be in technology. It can be interpersonal.” – Joseph Griffiths + In the last few months since leaving a management position, Joseph has spent time learning AI and programming. He’s enjoying doing this, and more importantly, it’s growth for him right now. + Joseph feels if you’ve shown aptitude in learning technical skills, you can do it again in the future. * Nick reiterates that growth can translate into a lot of different things that aren’t necessarily technical things. We may not always understand this when we work in technology. + When Joseph was early in his career as a systems administrator, he did not understand this. + Joseph tells the story of a time during his role as a lead systems administrator when his manager left the company. - The open manager job was posted, and both Joseph and one of his peers applied for it. Both went through the interview process with their director. - After going through the interview process, Joseph’s director stated he was not getting the manager job and gave some very pointed feedback – “you’re not ready for it yet.” - Joseph was gracious at that moment but was devastated to hear this. - “My initial response was the same response we all get – defensive. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I can tell you… 14,15 years later, he was absolutely right because I was focused on being the best technologist. Leading people is a totally different skill set, and I hadn’t shown any of those skills or developed any of those skills. And I was interested in doing things authoritatively…. That’s not a good way to lead people. It’s not a good way to run an organization. And he made the right choice…. He had the courage to give me some very real feedback that I didn’t understand until years later. And I’m thankful to JJ for that. We’re friends to this day…. When I became a manager, I was ready for it. I wasn’t then, and it would have been disaster…. A lot of people get into management because they think it’s the next step in their career because they’re the best technical person they can be. There’s nothing wrong with being the best technical person you can be and staying there.” – Joseph Griffiths - Make sure you understand yourself and why you want to pursue people management. Otherwise, Joseph would advise not pursuing it. We need good managers in companies and want to avoid having poor managers. + If someone wants to stay technical / stay individual contributor and there isn’t a role at your company, it might mean changing companies. There’s nothing wrong with being extremely technical and continuing with that pattern throughout your career. + “My passion is growth, not technology. You might be passionate about technology, and if you’re passionate about technology then there are plenty of places to go and…great careers in being the greatest technologist you can be. The only guidance I would give you is find a specialization, specialize in it, and prove that you’re the best in that specialization. Don’t be a generalist.” – Joseph Griffiths - The growth would come through developing the specialty based on Joseph’s guidance. He tells us that being a generalist can sometimes block your progression path. - If you want to be the best administrator of a specific type of storage array, for example, go do it. You would likely end up working for the vendor who makes the storage array if you have that depth of expertise. + Nick suggests maybe we should choose our specialty strategically for longevity. - Joseph mentioned his brother-in-law’s 23-year career in the Army as an officer. After getting out of the military he struggled to find a civilian career. - Once Joseph asked his brother-in-law about the work he did, they found he managed 10,000 people at an Army base. But he wasn’t wording it that way on his resume. - “You get specialized, and you don’t translate it to other things. You’d be surprised. The people who were doing blockchain 4 years ago…they’ve got a lot of the basis of understanding AI today…. I just suggest that we’re all going to pivot throughout our career. I’m in the middle of a potential career pivot trying to figure out what I want to do next, and maybe it’s management. Maybe it’s not. As I do that pivot right now, all the things that I learned before are benefits.” – Joseph Griffiths
30:35 – Leading a Familiar Team and Progressing as a Manager* What approach should someone take when they are peers with certain people and then become the manager? + This is a pretty common question and something Joseph was asked during interviews for the people manager role he occupied. + If no one else on the team was interviewing for the people manager role in addition to you, Joseph recommends doing some things to build trust: - Meeting with the team to acknowledge team members are good at what they do - Admit you have a lot to learn - Seek feedback and guidance from team members on what is / is not working, where people need help, what individual team member challenges have been - “Ultimately managing people is a game of trust. If they trust you, they will want to do what you ask them to do. If they don’t trust you, they will question every motive and struggle to get those things done. It will be drudgery.” – Joseph Griffiths + If someone else on the team was also interviewing for the manager role but lost because you got it… - Have an honest conversation with this member of the team, and offer them the chance to get feedback from the interviewers on skills gaps. - Give this member of your team the opportunity to develop into that manager role by being the second. Let them fill in while you’re out of the office, for example, to provide some experience and help deciding if people management is really what they want. - If this person becomes very unhappy as a result of not getting the manager role and discussions don’t become more positive, it may mean the person needs to move on to some other role. Find out what the person wants to do, and help them get there. - Earlier in Joseph’s career when he didn’t get the manager role, it was time to move to a different job. It was (at the time) Joseph’s way of finding something that would give him the opportunities he wanted. - “The other thing that I learned from Zac…my mentor in management…sometimes what you want to get done and where you want to go is totally right. But you’re not going to do it in your current organization because sometimes no one sees a prophet in their own land, so sometimes you’ve got to go to a different organization to get what you want. Don’t be afraid to jump and try something totally different because managing people is managing people. If you think that you need to be really good at the job that you’re managing, you’ve missed the boat. The people that you’re managing are really good at the job. That’s why they’re there, and they can help you understand what’s necessary to be successful in the job. I don’t need to be the smartest engineer to manage solutions engineers.” – Joseph Griffiths * What are some of the challenges to progressing in your career once you become a people manager? + “I consider progression growth of myself, not career ladder. So, what are the things stopping me from growing?” – Joseph Griffiths - One thing inhibiting growth could be running into the same situation over and over again and not having opportunities to grow and change. - Joseph will often tell his manager not to let him get bored in his role, which can happen every few years. Without enough change, he will get bored and not grow. + If we’re talking about progressing to second-line manager (or manager of people managers)… - Joseph would recommend determining if this role is aligned with your passions before pursuing it. If it is aligned with your passions, Joseph emphasizes the importance of understanding the greater organization. To a large degree, this is about people and politics. - “Some organizations are focused on execution – getting things done. Some organizations are focused on marketing – looking good, looking like you’re getting things done. You need to understand which kind of organization you’re in and do the appropriate type of activity to the appropriate people. But ultimately, the next step of your career…is going to be managing a large group of people. You’re going to get that because you’re able to manage a large peer network of people and manage up to them. You need more people saying ‘yes, that’s the right person for the job.’ And that only happens because they know you…. The day of being handed a job or being tapped on the shoulder…it’s not the culture of corporations is America anymore. You’ve got to put yourself out there and say, ‘I’m looking for that job’ and convince a wide net of people that you should get that job. And that’s something that especially technology people struggle with.” – Joseph Griffiths
Mentioned in the Outro* If you could interview a former boss on your podcast, what would you ask? * Joseph is more passionate about growth than technology, but he emphasizes that growth can mean different things for each of us at different times in our career. + Growth might mean learning a new skill, sharpening an existing skill, expanding the scope of the problems you need to solve, working in a specific job role, or working at a specific type of company. * Joseph’s suggestion of finding our passions and aligning them to a specific role pairs nicely with Tim Crawford’s advice on the decision between pursuing management and staying an individual contributor from Episode 244 – An Array of Decision Points with Tim Crawford (2/2). * If you’re looking for more on how other guests have used storytelling in their careers, check out these episodes: + Episode 122 – Write, Interview, Tell Your Own Story with Brianna Blacet (2/2) + Episode 301 – Always a Winger: People Person and Unapologetic Marketer with Amy Lewis (1/2) * In Joseph’s story we also see a theme of needing to seek an outside source to learn more about ourselves. In this case it was working with a mentor. + It’s amazing how questions from other people can provide clarity. + You can also listen to our recent episodes with Daniel Lemire on how he sought clarity from different sources: - Episode 325 – Overwhelmed by Ambiguity: DevOps, Innovation, and the Search for Clarity with Daniel Lemire (3/4) - Episode 326 – AI Mistakes: Focused Resilience and a Specialization Bet with Daniel Lemire (4/4)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
If you had something to share, what would you say, and how would you say it? Daniel Lemire asked himself the same question in the process of creating AI Mistakes. As it turns out, AI Mistakes isn’t just a platform for learning in public. It’s something Daniel must be doing. Want to know why?
After completing the vision board and gaining more perspective on the layoff event that would change his direction, Daniel knew where to begin. But it took time to translate what he had written on the post-it note about his needs in a role to a role at a specific company. Through intentional mindset shifts, feedback from others, and additional help from a mentor, Daniel chose to make a bet on generative AI.
Join us for episode 326 and the exciting conclusion of Daniel’s story. We’ll discuss how the specialized pre-sales role at ServiceNow really is a culmination of Daniel’s experience to this point and how he’s filling some of the sales and marketing gaps from back when he was an independent consultant.
Original Recording Date: 03-20-2025
Daniel Lemire is an AI Consultant working for ServiceNow. He’s also the creator of AI Mistakes. If you missed parts 1-3 of our discussion with Daniel, check out Episode 323, Episode 324, and Episode 325.
Topics – The Next Right Thing and the Genesis of AI Mistakes, Gaining AI Expertise, Mindset Shifts and Greater Clarity, A Role in Pre-Sales, Transition to Working for a Technology Vendor3:14 – The Next Right Thing and the Genesis of AI Mistakes* John wants to hear more about the genesis of AI Mistakes. + The timeline starts when Daniel found out that he was in the group of people being laid off. + “So, here I am…I think I’ve got things figured out. I’ve done really well. I think I’m going to get a really great appraisal for having taken care of business and done a good job, but actually, I got nothing…. Even now I still don’t know what anybody actually thought of my performance that year that I figured things out.” – Daniel Lemire, on not getting a performance review + Though Daniel’s role had been eliminated, he and others were asked to stay on at the company until sometime during the following year (required to get a severance). + Daniel recounts having to comfort his team about his departure. They had not learned to regulate themselves as Daniel had. - “You’re going to be fine. You know what you’re doing. We’re putting you into a position to be successful going forward. You don’t need me to be successful. You just need to know that you can do this, and you’re good at what you do…. It just means that my next thing isn’t here, and that’s ok. I would not have been capable of having that conversation even a year prior because I hadn’t done the work that I needed to do to understand.” – Daniel Lemire, on comforting his team when delivering the news of his role being eliminated - Daniel says this moment was a big confidence builder, and he feels he handled it very well with his team. + Many of Daniel’s colleagues who were also part of the layoff did not handle it well. They were very angry. He reminds us these kinds of events are very difficult to go through. - Having a severance package certainly helped provide Daniel time. Daniel mentioned his brother went through this kind of situation and did not receive a severance. - Years early, Daniel had planned to stay as long as the company would let him, believing if the company decided to end his employment that it would likely result in some type of severance. He and a number of colleagues decided to focus on doing a good job and to deal with job loss if and when it came rather than living in fear about it. Daniel cites this mindset shift as an important point in his maturity to prepare for when the layoff eventually impacted him. + “When I got the announcement that that road was going to end, that was like a golden ticket for me.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel ended his consulting business in 2009 after signing an agreement to work at PepsiCo. He was going “all in.” - Once he knew his employment would be ending, Daniel continued to do great work until the very last day nearly 6 months later (something he’s very proud of). + This was the catalyst for starting AI Mistakes. Daniel filed the paperwork and started developing a plan. He had learned a lot over the years since his last stint as an independent consultant and wanted to be ready for a potential return to it. - “Sales and marketing is a thing that matters, and you’re going to have to do it. And I’m ready for this.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel assessed his preparedness for the uncomfortable parts of consulting if he was to return to it after the layoff. It was at least an option. - “But the name AI Mistakes came out of the recognition that that is how we learn the best. Even at a very technical level…you have to learn doing it the wrong way to understand what the right way looks like…. That’s why you don’t become an architect the minute you step out of college. You haven’t had enough opportunity to make big enough mistakes…. Everybody’s made a big mistake. If you talk to anybody in operations, I guarantee you they have a sev 1 story.” Daniel Lemire - Daniel highlights some of his biggest growth moments being when he really broke something. During these times other people had to pitch in to help fix the problems. We want to foster work environments so people can make mistakes that are not career ending or that they cannot recover from.
9:20 – Gaining AI Expertise* Was AI a focus for Daniel when he worked on the innovation team? + Daniel says there were several projects the greater innovation team worked on which were AI heavy. + The exposure to AI for Daniel began by observing other members of the team and learning about it in the background. Someone was building models to improve manufacturing, and Daniel was able to see the progress and the outcome of that work, which sparked an interest in AI. + “The difficulty for me was I couldn’t do any of that work. I just knew that that was the right thing to be doing…. Sometimes my role in innovation more often exactly opposite of what I had been doing previously in my career. Every job I’d had at PepsiCo was being the subject matter expert. I was the big brain. The moment I stepped into innovation, all of that basically went away. The only thing I was really good at that I brought to the team was helping with architecture and mapping out how the systems should interconnect and how we should prosecute the program of dealing with all of the things. I was no longer the expert that knew how to do the specific thing. I was working with the team to make that happen.” – Daniel Lemire + A colleague on the innovation team told Daniel about GPT-3 and how it was actually beginning to work. After this conversation, Daniel got an OpenAI account, but despite thinking it was interesting, he didn’t really know what to do with it. - At least initially, Daniel couldn’t find the value in this tool. - “That is the number one thing I took away from my time in innovation…. What is the value, and how do you succinctly articulate that? …It can be the best technology. You can have the smartest people. But, if they are not willing to put their money to it, it doesn’t matter.” – Daniel Lemire - Especially when communicating with executives, being unable to clearly articulate the value of something means it will not get funded. + When ChatGPT happened, Daniel recognized it was going somewhere and began spending his time using it. + While he initially did not know what to do with GPT-3, Daniel had used Stable Diffusion to generate images for some of the presentations he built during his time on the innovation team. - Daniel had originally bought a couple of desktop computers with NVIDIA graphics cards to mine Ethereum as part of his innovation work. He mentions researching cryptocurrency and blockchain (and specifically NFTs). - The best way Daniel knew to learn about these technologies was to build a lab at home. - Once there was no way to mine Ethereum any longer, Daniels’ lab environment was left idle. He decided to use it for Stable Diffusion and began to learn how the models worked. - “So, I quickly became very familiar with those AI things, and then everything just kind of fell into place…. I’ve learned enough in an enterprise environment that I can actually consult and help people understand what the next thing is that they need to do…. A colleague at work said to me, ‘you know a lot, and you’re not sharing enough.’” – Daniel Lemire + The feedback from his colleague is what prompted Daniel to start a YouTube channel for AI Mistakes. See also the YouTube Feed on the AI Mistakes Website. - “If I really do have something that’s useful to share, who am I going to share it with, and how am I going to do that?” – Daniel Lemire - For many years Daniel would watch YouTube videos in the evenings to keep up with technology trends. Since this helped him learn things, he could provide content for other people to learn in that format. + Daniel was also used to writing newsletters for innovation, and he began his own AI Mistakes newsletter. You can view the newsletter and subscribe to it here. - He also had the previous consulting experience to lean on. - When Daniel was thinking through what would come next for him, he felt AI Mistakes could be that paycheck. He decided to treat it seriously and focus on it. - “I went from one day going into the office at PepsiCo to the next day sitting here working the same amount of time building all of the things around AI Mistakes…. I get excited about something, and I get after it. And that’s what I did…. But, having done that vision board, I also knew that…I’ve gotta focus on all of the things. I can’t just be narrow on one thing. I’ve got to think about the bigger picture.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel reiterates that he did take a trip with his wife at one point to celebrate their anniversary.
15:11 – Mindset Shifts and Greater Clarity* Daniel feels the work for AI Mistakes (preparation, getting better at speaking, building more expertise, etc.) and the repetition put him in the position to be successful in his interviews at ServiceNow. + He knew what to say and how to say it in these discussions, which was backed by proof of work and expertise (his content). Having the public proof of work helped tremendously. + Daniel has been able to monetize his YouTube channel as well (something he is very proud of). + “It was the iteration and the feedback that I got from doing that that helped me get better and put me in a good position for the next thing, and the mindset things that I tackled in the process gave me the confidence I needed to go into that room and have that conversation on the interview…why I was the right guy for that next thing.” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel also mentioned some mindset shifts during all of this such as needing to be working on something even if he could not immediately show the payback on that effort. - Daniel needed to have confidence that he was doing the right work focused in the right area and that if he kept doing it good things would happen. - When the severance check ended, Daniel did not yet have the next thing figured out. That was a very stressful time. Not long after this, Daniel once again gave up and relied on his faith just as he did after learning a career as a pilot in the Air Force was out of the question. The act of giving up and the steps afterward shaped what happened next. - Shortly after giving up, Daniel applied for the role at ServiceNow. + John mentions the post-it note did not mention anything about making a living as an AI influencer and coach. - “I was looking for insights in many different places.” – Daniel Lemire - At the DFW Prayer Breakfast, someone introduced Daniel to a CIO who would end up mentoring him. After a brief phone conversation about mentorship, the CIO sent Daniel a list of questions he needed to answer before they could continue. The questions were to help Daniel determine what he wanted. - “To be fair, my needs were pretty ambiguous as it came to a role, and the questions that he was asking me were very much more focused on ‘what kind of role do you want from a career perspective…what job do you want?’ I couldn’t answer it. I didn’t have that answer.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel tells us the job role didn’t matter compared to what the job would do to fulfill Daniel’s needs as a contributor to an organization. He had applied to jobs as an architect, a product manager, an engineer, a leader, and even some focused on DevOps. None of the interviews for these types of roles worked out. - After answering the questions the CIO / mentor proposed, Daniel clearly understood he was willing to make a bet on AI. It was a trend / area he believed to be bigger than cloud and mobile combined. A new role needed to be something with generative AI within the scope of things which were familiar to Daniel. - The questionnaire from his mentor also helped Daniel sort out the type of company where he wanted to work. Initially, Daniel did not think enterprise was where he needed to be, but it turns out after further reflection, Daniel’s skillset would provide more value to a large enterprise. + If Daniel had insisted on his future being an independent consultant, it might have been driven by ego. - “AI Mistakes is one of the things I must be doing. There is a very clear calling for me to do that. The calling for me in doing that though isn’t that’s where I need to be earning what helps me take care of my family. That doesn’t mean there’s not a future for that to be the case, but that’s not the reason for the existence.” – Daniel Lemire
20:38 – A Role in Pre-Sales* In the last couple of years, Daniel has recognized his lack of deep sales and marketing experience. He is consistently learning new things in his role within the go-to-market organization inside ServiceNow. Daniel says he’s not putting a limit on the number of years he plans to stay in the role. + “It’s creating value. I love having the conversations. I feel like I’m really actually helping people… It is fulfilling the post-it note in ways that I could not have imagined…. I think the reason I needed that job was that I wasn’t going to get all of those things from just doing AI Mistakes. Or perhaps I couldn’t get to those things in the time that I needed that to be the case.” – Daniel Lemire, on his role with ServiceNow * Daniel confirms his current role is a pre-sales role and that back when he knew things were going to change for him at PepsiCo, pre-sales wasn’t even on the consideration list for what might be next. + Daniel loves his current role working in pre-sales and mentions it contains so much of what he needed. + John thinks another role which could have fulfilled the post-it note for Daniel is technical marketing. + “The thing that I didn’t understand about sales from the very beginning was that it’s not about getting somebody to give you their money. That’s what we all think about when we think about sales, right? It’s transactional.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel has read a lot about sales in the last 24-36 months, recognizing that even if AI Mistakes could make money, he would eventually need to make a sale. - “And that’s probably a big part of why I was able to get a role in pre-sales because I didn’t walk into that just being a technician. I walked into that with many volumes of sales learnings in my back pocket. And having done inside sales doing innovation at a corporation meant that I had many conversations trying to convince somebody to give me their money to go and do the innovation thing.” – Daniel Lemire - Nick says Daniel’s role as an architect even contained a sales element, especially when encouraging colleagues to adapt cloud and DevOps. - The role at ServiceNow was a good fit for Daniel because of the time investment he made. - “There’s no reason to buy the technology unless it solves a problem, and you have to get to the heart of the problem. What is the why? Why does this thing matter?” – Daniel Lemire - We need to be able to answer those why questions both for us and for other people. - John mentions taking a value selling course when he first got into pre-sales and the emphasis on understanding the buyer’s metrics for business success. After a decade in IT Operations, John had never once asked for his manager’s metrics for success. - Daniel said he never really had to do this until he was on the innovation team. As an architect, he usually had to convince technical people that something was the right answer, and it never really left the technical domain. Daniel recounts a professor from his graduate program saying, “we have an alignment problem. People that do technology don’t know how to explain to the businesspeople why the technology matters, and until you solve that problem, things are going to go sideways. It really is that simple.” - This alignment problem is the number 1 problem both technologists and businesspeople have to solve. - John says many people don’t know if they are working on something which makes their company money. It is often easier to keep your job when you work on something aligned with revenue as opposed to something viewed as a cost center. Within a cost center, there is always pressure for the cost to go down. When something is generating revenue, the discussions are more about return on investment. - Daniel says it took him reading The Phoenix Project to understand these things even after obtaining his graduate degree. It took the enterprise context as well. - All things considered, Daniel says he would not change a thing.
26:51 – Transition to Working for a Technology Vendor* What other challenges does Daniel see based on his experience moving from being a technologist to working for a technology vendor? + Daniel says he needed to separate himself from needing to have a specific level or title and be willing to put himself in a different position. + Daniel is a higher-level individual contributor at ServiceNow in his pre-sales role, he has no direct reports. He works with sales executives and other solutions consultants to help customers. + “I had to have the experiences in being a manager and being in charge of the technical things and being the architect and driving the programs to be able to sit down with the people that are at our customers to help them negotiate the challenges that they’re in. But that has nothing to do with a title. That was something that I didn’t understand until I got into it. The reason I was able to get the role at ServiceNow…was because I wasn’t overshooting where I could add value.” – Daniel Lemire + John mentions often times an entry level pre-sales position is a mid-career position. There are more junior versions of this role to allow entry for people earlier in their career. In order to generate value in a pre-sales role, it takes many different types of experience and skills. + Overall, Daniel doesn’t think he is missing any of the other challenges of stepping into the role. He gives credit to the team who interviewed and hired him and recognized he could do well in this role. + In his current role, Daniel works with many different sales teams as a technical overlay / specialist. He is not dedicated to a specific set of customers but rather is a dedicated resource to internal sales teams for supporting their customers. - Daniel shares a recent story of getting some very positive feedback on a customer presentation from the account team he was supporting and stresses the importance of feedback for his own improvement. - “I tell the account team…‘when we’re done, I want your feedback. If it’s bad or good I need to know because I’m going to touch a lot of other customers, and if there’s something I can improve, I need to get to work now.’” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel is very mindful of trying to balance being confident with preventing himself from being too confident. - Nick re-iterates what Daniel told us earlier in our discussions – “in the absence of feedback, you can be open to experimentation.” - John likes to label his performance in situations as performing well or performing poorly. Doing well or doing poorly does not make a person good or bad. + Daniel didn’t expect this but views himself as a performer. It’s about how he can serve others in the moment. Nick says it’s the value he can deliver. * If you want to follow up with Daniel on this conversation, you can: + Contact Daniel on LinkedIn + Learn about his work with AI Mistakes, including his YouTube Channel
Mentioned in the Outro* Daniel needed additional clarity from a mentor to gain the clarity necessary to translate what he had written on the post-it note to a role at a specific company. * If you or someone you know has been impacted by a layoff event, check out our Layoff Resources Page for access to the most impactful discussions on the topic of layoffs with industry experts and technologists like you. * Daniel’s statement of “you don’t need me to be successful” and the need to comfort his team about his departure reminds us of Marni Coffey’s story. Go listen to Episode 280 – Life after Layoff: A Leader’s Sense of Duty and A Series of Good Conversations with Marni Coffey (3/3) to hear the parallels. * Daniel made a bet on generative AI. When we make a bet on a technology, we want something with longevity in the market that needs the attention of our skillsets. We want it to still be relevant by the time we have enough expertise in the area to get a new job, for example. Compare the way Daniel decided to that of Brad Christian in Episode 264 – Back to Basics: Technology Bets and Industry Relationships with Brad Christian (2/2). Both are valid sets of reasoning.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
What happens when there is too much change at once after making a job change? Daniel Lemire had learned the principles of DevOps and combined it with his experience as an infrastructure architect to advocate for the adoption of new technologies and processes within a large enterprise. But when Daniel changed roles to focus on innovation and became a senior manager at the same time, there were many challenges for which he was unprepared. In fact, at times it was overwhelming.
In the 3rd installment of Daniel Lemire’s story in episode 325, you’ll hear Daniel’s reasons for focusing on innovation in the first place, why he continued to persevere through challenges, the stress and impact of layoff events, and the unexpected way he found clarity amidst the ambiguity.
Original Recording Date: 03-20-2025
Daniel Lemire is an AI Consultant working for ServiceNow. He’s also the creator of AI Mistakes. If you missed parts 1 or 2 of our discussion with Daniel, check out Episode 323 and Episode 324
Topics – A Personal DevOps Value Story, Planting Seeds of Innovation, The Challenges of Impactful Innovation, Progressing from Overwhelm to Clarity3:33 – A Personal DevOps Value Story* Daniel needed a reset and to determine how he could contribute to the organization where he worked. That’s about the time he discovered DevOps. + After a recommendation from a colleague within the security organization, Daniel read The Phoenix Project, and it has changed his career trajectory for the better. He read the book not long after its release. + Reading the book also changed the way Daniel thinks so he is able to help companies create value. + “…When I read it, I didn’t understand what was so great about it. I just knew there was something there that I needed…. I read it and I got really excited about it. But I didn’t really know what to do with it.” – Daniel Lemire + Not long after reading The Phoenix Project, Daniel recommended the book to a colleague who worked on the security and compliance team. There was a character in the book named John who starts off being very stressed but for whom things improve greatly during the course of the story. - “After he finished the book, he came back to me and he’s like, ‘let’s do something with this….’ I still didn’t know what to do with it.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel’s colleague recommended they start by meeting and having a conversation. - After their initial meeting, Daniel and his colleague started meeting on a weekly basis. They started talking about The Three Ways and how these could be applied to make things better. Daniel and his colleague gave a presentation to a large portion of the IT Operations team to share thoughts on the way people do work and how to improve it. - “It really helped them think through some of their organizational challenges and the things that needed to be done because that was also a difficult time across our technology organization because of the big changes that were being made. But the lightbulb didn’t really all the way come on for me until The DevOps Handbook came out and I got the concrete ‘these are the things that matter to a technology organization.’ So much of what I think about from a technology manager perspective has literally come out of that story. It is The Phoenix Project helping me related to what was going on and then the handbook giving me the tools to do the things that mattered that have enabled me to grow my technical accumen into an organizational behavior mechanism…. Ultimately if you can’t apply the lever in the right place, it doesn’t matter…. You can have the best people. You can have the best technology. But if you don’t solve the right problem, you’ve done nothing. That is a contextualization on many different levels.” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel cites The Goal by Eliyahu Goldratt as another very influential book. He says it helps you understand systems at a bigger level and would recommend it to any technologist, referencing the drum buffer rope concept. - We must be able to do the right things within the right context to create value. - Daniel achieved continued success applying the principles of DevOps which allowed him to continue into a management role at PepsiCo. * Before Daniel was a manager, he needed to work with and influence people to do technical work across the organization. These people didn’t necessarily work with him on a daily basis or have a rapport with him. Learnings from his study of DevOps came together in a meaningful and useful way in these situations. + Daniel cites understanding the metrics needed to get the kind of feedback you need as an example. + Reflecting back on it, Daniel was excited about what The DevOps Handbook promised. The book’s introduction was telling a value story for the application of DevOps, including examples of organizations that had used the principles of DevOps to increase performance. + “You needed everything that was in the rest of the book, but what got me excited was what those things could do. Understanding that promise of improving the system got me thinking more about how to build an effective system.” – Daniel Lemire, describing the introduction of The DevOps Handbook as a value story for DevOps
9:26 – Planting Seeds of Innovation* Daniel was already helping colleagues understand how to make effective technical contributions to building systems. The principles Daniel learned from The Phoenix Project, The Goal, and The DevOps Handbook allowed him to push these conversations beyond just the technical – into the business domain. + “You’re never going to be successful in architecture if you’re not able to encapsulate the business domain.” – Daniel Lemire + It’s important to be able to explain why we do technical things. + “Architects, in my view, are really masters of making tradeoff equations. In the infrastructure space, you can install a single server to do something, and you can get that system in place very quickly. But it’s fragile because if any individual component failure comes into play, you can’t do anything. So, you have to build these failure domains that allow you to maintain the integrity of the system, but that’s more expensive…. When I think about what I learned from DevOps, it is balancing those two equations.” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel distinctly remembers a chart having to do with the number of developers working on a given project. It’s the Mythical Man Month concept. He gives the example of a baby’s development. It takes 9 months. This is a known limitation of the system. - Daniel says architects understand technical limitations in specific areas but also overall system limitations. The limitations are used to make the right decisions in conjunction with the requirements to meet the business need so the overall program can be successful. - “The better you are at putting those pieces together, the more successful you’re going to be in solving the problems that the organization at large has.” – Daniel Lemire + According to Daniel, an architect doesn’t just put technical systems together and stop there because it can limit one’s success. Daniel mentions receiving guidance from people in the DevOps community to extend his skills beyond the technical. + While learning DevOps did afford Daniel the opportunity to do some interesting work as an infrastructure architect, but he eventually reached the point of needing to do something different. + Daniel remembers completing a specific exercise for his personal development plan focused on the kinds of things he wanted to do in his career. Daniel wrote down his desire to be an architect and focus on innovation. + Daniel was a competent infrastructure architect who understood the challenges of the role very well. He experienced successes driving new technologies like DevOps and adoption of cloud technologies and was extremely proud of those efforts. The next architectural project for Daniel was building a very critical business system in the cloud. It was interesting but not interesting enough. - “I knew exactly where I was headed with that program. I thought it was interesting, but I also thought it was boring. And that’s not what I wanted to do next…. I saw the pain that was coming for me by doing this next big thing. I wasn’t excited about it, and I just couldn’t put myself in that position going forward.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel mentioned many corporations across the world have a lot of work to do when it comes to cloud technologies. We are great at adding new technologies but not so got at getting rid of the old ones. The Phoenix Project describes problems and challenges that are applicable to many companies. We can learn from other companies without having to go through the pain.
15:07 – The Challenges of Impactful Innovation* “And, oddly enough, an opportunity opened up for me to get to that next level and be a senior manager and go do innovation. Man, I was so excited about that.” – Daniel Lemire * Reflecting on it, Daniel was very good at introducing critical new things within the company. He points to the beginning of cloud dialogues with colleagues and how their reactions changed from initial confusion and detraction to full support within a couple of years. + “I was one of the guys that said, ‘yeah, we need to go do this.’ I don’t think I was wrong, and DevOps was the same way. Some people were like, ‘I don’t know why this is your thing.’” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel mentions conversation he had with a mentor who disagreed about DevOps being what the organization needed to solve certain problems. At the time, Daniel knew he would not win that battle. - “The challenge I always had with him was – he’d throw me off my game. He’d ask a really intelligent question that I had no way to answer. I liked that about him because every time I got in a conversation with him, he’d point out something I hadn’t thought about…. Any time I showed up with something like, ‘hey, we need to do this’ he would throw a curve ball at me that it would take me weeks to solve or in some cases months…. He wasn’t wrong…it just turned into this wall for me. Even now, looking back on it, I know that I was fundamentally right in saying this is what we need…. You can take the right next step and not be able to explain why it’s the right next step in the moment, but it’s still the right next step.” – Daniel Lemire, on overcoming challenges when presenting new ideas - Trying to answer the questions his mentor asked might keep Daniel from getting things accomplished because he was determined to fill the gaps in his knowledge. + John has empathy when it comes to the constant question of changing systems. - “At least I know the problems of the system that I know, and new systems bring new problems.” – John White, paraphrasing The Systems Bible - John highlights the difficulty involved in knowing whether someone is bringing up an 80% objection or a 20% objection. We generally manage to the 80% because managing to the 20% can cause different issues. See also The Pareto Principle or 80/20 Rule. - Daniel has emphasized this theme more often lately in his consulting role. Many of the objections people raise are part of the 20%. Looking back, he is not sure if the objections his mentor raised would fall into the 20%, but we as technologists today spend way too much time on the 20%. - John says a lot of time will be spent on the 20% regardless of the efficiency of the 80%. Optimizing the 80% provides more time for the 20%. * “I was just really tired of dealing with the 20% all the time, and I really wanted to be able to do a lot of things…. There’s the 80% of the problems that you can solve very, very quickly, and then there’s the 20% of the problems that you just have to spend a ton of time to get there.” The same is true with expertise, right? You can be 80% effective at a brand-new thing in a short period of time, but to get that last 20% it takes much, much iteration. Having spent a decade in infrastructure, I became far too focused on the little bitty things." – Daniel Lemire + When he worked in infrastructure, some of the projects Daniel worked on were measured in years. In infrastructure, one cannot take risks. It’s important to put in a reliable system. + Daniel needed something different. The opportunity to move into innovation solved this problem. It allowed for fast iteration on things. Daniel tells us he did more projects in innovation than his entire career in infrastructure because of the nature of the beast. * Was getting to work on many different projects in innovation something Daniel considered to be a bigger impact? + Daniel says no. + “So much of the things that I worked on in innovation became shelfware. You can drive a lot of excitement about something new, and you can run an effective proof of concept and show that something is valuable or not valuable. But it doesn’t mean that somebody’s going to stand up and say, ‘I’m ready to go try this,’ especially in an enterprise environment because even ROI often times is not enough to satisfy the ‘why are we doing this?’” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel would not say it’s impossible to inject innovations into an enterprise successfully, but he highlights a number of challenges from experience. * When Daniel began the work in innovation, he didn’t actually know what it took to do the work of innovation at an enterprise level. + It took Daniel years to make progress on cloud and DevOps within the organization. - This effort requires addressing multiple dimensions – educating others, building technical accumen, governance, politics, governance, the organization in which you’re operating, and the monetary aspect of it. - These are also true for innovation. + “What I didn’t understand when I started the journey was that I was signing up to do those things in a much shorter period of time than I was really prepared to do. I knew what to do. I had not done enough repetition to be very effective at it. Now the good news is because I was in innovation the repetition happened a lot faster, but it didn’t make my boss happy that I wasn’t very good at it….” – Daniel Lemire + What does not very good mean? - Daniel says he did not understand the practice of innovation well enough. It requires doing some very specific things, and upon taking on the role, he was ignorant of those things. Daniel did a lot of reading to get up to speed on these items. - Daniel refers to a conversation with Jensen Huang and a journalist about Starting NVIDIA. If Jensen had known what he was signing up for when deciding to start NVIDIA, he probably would not have done it. Daniel says this parallels his experience in innovation – not understanding or appreciating what he had signed up to do. * There were some challenges to taking the role in innovation that Daniel needs to share with us.Daniel knew some members of the innovation team and felt he would have fewer interpersonal challenges. He was ready to tackle something new, excited about this opportunity, and understood it would be a difficult task. + “I’m aggressively going after jumping into the deep end because consistently…if I throw myself into the deep end, I’m going to swim.” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel accepted the role of senior manager of the innovation team in February 2020 right before the global pandemic really started in the US. He was not prepared for it. - In some ways Daniel feels like it may have been a mistake, but in other ways he doesn’t have any regrets about taking the role. - “In fact, I can remember very clearly the conversation I had with my manager in completing in completing my objectives review going into my 4th year in innovation…. My manager says to me, ‘Daniel, you’re not good at this.’” – Daniel Lemire - Though it was a tremendous challenge to meet his manager’s expectations, Daniel understood his future success hinged on getting good at the different elements required to perform the role well. + Daniel’s manager eventually took on a different role within the organization. It was challenging for Daniel to have his manager leave knowing he had disappointed his manager with his performance. + “It was basically the next month that things started to click for me. He wasn’t wrong in that I wasn’t performing well for the things he needed me to do well at. It was almost in the next breath that things really locked in, and it all started to make sense for me…. I’m also not going to tell you that I immediately went from being not great at this thing to being the best there is….” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel says things start to make sense after a certain amount of iteration and feedback just like some children need to fall down many times before learning to walk. - Nick gives the example of James Dyson’s relentless drive to iterate and get to a working prototype. See also Invention: A Life by James Dyson. - Maybe Daniel’s manager leaving forced him to step up and do better? Daniel isn’t sure what made the difference, but he knows it was what he needed and has been a major contributor to the work Daniel has done subsequent to the position in innovation.
27:27 – Progressing from Overwhelm to Clarity* Was the point at which everything started to make sense close to the time of Daniel’s exit from PepsiCo? + When Daniel had the tough career conversation with his manager about his performance, he knew he was close to turning a corner. Daniel didn’t plan to seek out a new role just yet. - This scenario destroyed Daniel’s confidence. He didn’t fully realize how much of a problem this was at the time. - When Daniel’s boss left and he asked about applying for the director position, Daniel said he did not want it. - “Somebody had just told me I wasn’t good at doing those things. Why on earth would I sign up for more responsibility when I’m not good at the things I’m already responsible for?” – Daniel Lemire - Looking back, Daniel thinks he should have signed up for the director role, feeling he was capable of doing the job. - The team had no director for a period of time once Daniel’s manager left. Daniel encouraged one of his very capable peers to take on the director role and had no issues working for a different manager in lieu of removing himself from the director role candidate pool. - During this period, Daniel continued to improve his skills as an innovation manager, filling some of those earlier gaps he had. + “Right about the time I’m feeling pretty good about where I am and how I’m seeing things and being able to classify and organize and execute the things that I think need to be done…the earthquake happens.” – Daniel Lemire, describing a pending layoff event - Daniel could clearly see what was happening over time from his learnings getting the graduate degree. He and his peers in the infrastructure space knew there was a larger organizational plan happening. The only real opportunities in the infrastructure space within the company were if you intended to become a director, senior director, or vice president. - "All of us at one point several years ago kind of looked at each other and said, “are you going to hang around until the end, or are you going to jump and go somewhere else?’ I’m a really loyal guy. That’s just part of who I am. It’s really hard for me to pick up and leave because I’m invested. That was what was in play for me. I was just really invested in being a part of the organization….” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel remembers getting the opportunity to move into the innovation group. He was moving into a different area and did not feel he would have an “end-of-the-road” problem like in the infrastructure space. It could potentially be the next 10 years of his career. - “One of the things I also knew moving into innovation was our innovation team directly reported to the CTO, and the reality of that relationship is if you aren’t satisfying the objectives that the CTO has, you don’t have a reason for existence. So, you have to be very good at delivering on what you’re promising. The stark reality was that as a team, holistically we weren’t delivering to all of the objectives that the CTO had. So, something had to give, and in this case, it was me. I was the one that got cut from the team.” – Daniel Lemire - Many were surprised that Daniel was impacted by the layoffs. Daniel doesn’t think performance ratings played into this but isn’t sure.Reflecting back on it, the role in innovation had too much ambiguity for Daniel while he was doing something very different. The time period in which all this happened also made this difficult. - “It was too much at once, and it took me years to figure out how to navigate that well and to get back on the horse well.” – Daniel Lemire, thinking about his role in innovation. * There are some good things that happened during this progression leading up to the layoff event that Daniel wanted to share with us. + A couple of years before Daniel was laid off (and before he moved to the innovation team), one specific round of layoffs of his colleagues created an extraordinary amount of stress on Daniel, and that stress made him sick with gastrointestinal issues. Daniel’s direct boss was impacted at the time, which made it very difficult. + “But I learned a lot from that situation because I had not learned how to regulate my emotions attached to what was going on. I was so invested in my reputation and my title. That was what was really important to me, and I didn’t understand that I needed to focus on everything about what I was doing, not just my career…. I needed that recalibration, and I also needed to focus on my health a little bit more.” – Daniel Lemire + Joining the innovation team took away the immediate stress. Even though Daniel wasn’t performing as well as he needed to within innovation, it did not come with the same amount of stress as when he worked in infrastructure, and it was an entirely new set of challenges. + Daniel was able to recalibrate what it meant to be in a future round of people leaving the organization. + “I was able to contextualize what that meant and recognize that that really didn’t have anything to do with me and that sometimes these thigns happen and that I just needed to get myself in order. No matter what was going to happen, that was on me to do, and nobody else could take responsibility for that. So, in some ways it was accepting that responsibility of ‘I need to be in charge of the whole me.’” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel mentions that his wife made a decision to go and get some coaching to improve herself, and it impacted him in a very positive way. Daniel was in a bad place, and his wife shared some of the learnings from that coaching with him. - At one point Daniel’s wife encouraged him to make a vision board that covered all areas of his life. This was close to the time Daniel had the difficult conversation with his manager in innovation. Daniel’s wife had already made one for herself, and it was extremely helpful. - “I’ve gotta tell you guys, there’s something much bigger at play because it was almost the next moment after finishing that vision board that things started to happen…. I honestly believe that if I hadn’t done the vision board that none of those things would have happened. I really think that was the trigger. It was me getting clarity on what mattered.” – Daniel Lemire - As a result of making the vision board, Daniel had the overwhelming need to get a LinkedIn subscription and to share content with people. Daniel refers to the things that happened next as “a snowball of change.” - “I need to be in a position that I can uniquely fill, to use all of my skills and not just be managing tasks, to apply technical experiences to make the organization better, and to build systems that help people and have my contribution valued.” – Daniel Lemire, sharing what he had written on a post-it note after completing the vision board exercise + Daniel says it was completing the vision board and getting the clarity that launched him into a “next phase.” For the first time in several years, he knew what he wanted. At one point he had been merely going through the motions so he could recover from the overwhelm of too much ambiguity. - While still on the innovation team, Daniel was starting to think about the type of role he wanted next. - “If I had the permission to do something or anything, what would that be? One of the things that I outlined for me was doing things that were outside of my specific role because that was part of how I had been successful in my past, and I knew I needed to get back to that.” – Daniel Lemire + John pointed out that nothing on Daniel’s post-it note said he needed to be working in innovation or that he needed to be a senior manager. It was much more general. When we cut it down to the core, for Daniel, it wasn’t about the title or the area he was working in. Daniel says he needed to get clarity about what was important first before his “what’s next” could begin. - Nick remembers having lunch with Daniel around the time of the layoff that impacted Daniel and hearing his idea. Daniel’s idea and proposed direction seemed extremely clear based on the time at which the lunch occurred. - Daniel says Nick observed the output of Daniel getting the clarity he needed. Daniel also tells us he did not appreciate the importance of getting this clarity and at some point along the way had stopped seeking clarity. - "…There’s no reason that you have to abdicate your responsibility to understand what it is that you should be working on. We should all be working on something at every moment, and we should be intentional about the things that we’re working on. I let go of my initiative because of the ambiguity. I didn’t have a rudder, and I wasn’t doing the things that I needed to do to get that rudder back. And I take responsibility for that. I really do. I think I could have done a better job of navigating that situation if I had thought about what I needed to prioritize and thought about what it was that I needed to be doing. And I also needed that…because it got me asking…‘ok, that’s all done. Now what?’ I can’t go back and change any of that. It doesn’t matter. What am I going to do now? " – Daniel Lemire - Daniel refers to the scene in Frozen 2 where Anna sings about “the next right thing.” - “It’s reflecting on those ideas and those thoughts that was also the genesis of how I wound up falling into this AI Mistakes thing that I started.” – Daniel Lemire
Mentioned in the Outro* This was another story of someone impacted by a layoff event. If that’s you or someone you know, check out our Layoff Resources Page for access to the most impactful discussions on the topic of layoffs with industry experts and technologists like you. * The clarity Daniel gained allowed him to reframe the layoff event, and in seeking the clarity, he figured out what he wanted and needed in a job role. + It was the vision board and going through that exercise that made the difference. Nick suspects there is some parallel or possible overlap in the vision board and the Must Have List that Kat Troyer and Liz Bronson (the hosts of RealJobTalk) shared with us a while back. + We usually don’t take the time to perform these types of exercises because we’re overwhelmed or have too much work to do or get distracted by other things. Maybe you need to spend time seeking clarity. * When Daniel mentioned he wasn’t sure what to do with DevOps after learning about it, Nick thought this sounded like more missing context. It reminded him of the mix of concrete and abstract learning that Erik Gross spoke to us about in Episode 267 – A Theme of Learning with Erik Gross (1/3). * Daniel’s ‘what now’ question reminded Nick of what Cody de Arkland shared in Episode 86 – Emotional Tech Support and Debugging with Verbose Logging with Cody de Arkland – stating lives and careers are like seasons. It’s more about when is next than what is next. * Daniel also shared some book recommendations after this recording that we will mention (both available in audio form): + What to Do Next: Taking Your Best Step When Life Is Uncertain by Jeff Henderson + Imaginable: How to See the Future Coming and Feel Ready for Anything―Even Things That Seem Impossible Today by Jane McGonigal * What did Daniel mean by starting AI Mistakes at the end of that episode? We’ll share the story next week as we conclude with part 4?
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
When you’re missing a specific experience in your career, how do you get it? Daniel Lemire was missing experience in a large enterprise to pair with the things he learned from pursuing a graduate degree. Join us this week in episode 324 to hear the story of what happened when Daniel got that experience that provided the missing context to apply what he learned.
Throughout this discussion, you’ll notice Daniel’s continued openness to new opportunities lead him from a contractor position in a large enterprise all the way to technical lead. There’s also a parallel process of Daniel’s development of expertise and credibility alongside his observations of the enterprise organization as a whole that encourage us not to limit our focus only to the technical work we’re doing. Near the end of our discussion, Daniel shares his perspective on an organizational decision to begin outsourcing and the way it impacted his work. What would you do in that situation?
Original Recording Date: 03-20-2025
Daniel Lemire is an AI Consultant working for ServiceNow. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Daniel, check out Episode 323.
Topics – Missing the Context of Experience, Unexpected Opportunities, Confidence and Feedback, Enterprise Experience Meets Educational Background, Gaining Organizational Perspective, The Cascade of Objectives, Technical Leadership and a Change in Strategy3:03 – Missing the Context of Experience* Daniel said after completing his master’s degree at UNT he did not have the context of experience to pair with his education. + As part of the master’s program, Daniel got an education in marketing, management, and technology. + In class, they might have a discussion about how CIOs make decisions or have a guest speaker to provide additional context from the business world. + “I knew what the right questions were, but I didn’t understand why those were the right questions. And it was a real challenge for me because I couldn’t place what I was learning…. I was learning the right things. They really were the right things, but I didn’t know what to do with it. The curriculum I took in getting the master’s degree was exactly what I needed to be successful in a large enterprise. But because I had only ever done the independent consulting, I had only ever worked with very small companies, companies that had less than 100 employees…. So much of what I was learning about management discipline and program development and project management was for these really big organizations, and I didn’t have the context to understand why all of those things were necessary….” – Daniel Lemire, thinking back on his master’s degree program + Daniel makes a reference to the 150-person relationship limit known as Dunbar’s Number and says this requires very different business management techniques. * Upon finishing the graduate degree, Daniel had learned 3 very critical things: + Daniel discovered through conversations with classmates and through completing specific projects that he had an aptitude for the subject matter. He also realized the program had been the right place for him. + Daniel knew he had a lot to learn but that he was missing enterprise experience. It was something he really needed to get the full value from what he had learned pursuing the graduate degree. + “The third piece of it that I didn’t understand until much later was that journey of taking turns between being overprepared for something and getting into something that you’re overwhelmed by. That’s yet another dichotomy because in some ways by getting the graduate degree I was overprepared for an enterprise environment, but from an interpersonal and from a political and…just being one of many in a corporation, I was totally unprepared for that experience because everything I had ever done up to that point was at a much smaller place.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel was the only IT person when he worked at the Conroe Medical Education Foundation, and there were only about 20 employees. - Through his consulting work building websites, Daniel interacted with several companies across various industries. He mentions one of the largest had about 80 employees.
6:54 – Unexpected Opportunities* Daniel shares a story of crossing paths with an acquaintance who had been the systems administrator at the Texas Women’s University (TWU) Police Department but was moving to a different job. + “Sometimes you find somebody else that’s technically good and you know who they are, and you remember them. This was kind of one of those deals…. I’m doing this grad school thing while I’m kind of just paying the bills doing the consulting thing. So, I was ready to take on another opportunity.” – Daniel Lemire, on a chance meeting with an acquaintance who got him a job + Daniel was asked if he’d be open to doing something different and possibly taking over at the university police department. After saying yes, Daniel spent a year working at TWU while he finished his graduate studies, which provided the opportunity to learn about a completely different type of business (a police business). + Daniel spent time understanding what the police officers did and spent time building systems. One specific example of a system Daniel built (or contributed heavily to building with others) allowed students to buy a campus parking pass on the university’s website. This was his first experience working on an integrated system. + In everything he did, Daniel’s intent was to solve problems. There wasn’t a guidebook or manual to build things like integrated systems. Another example of a project from his time at TWU was building a customized alert system for the university based on programmatic scripts (which acted as a stop gap until a vendor solution for this could later be put in place). + “There’s no guide for this. I just know what the technology can do, and I know what my skillset is. We put the things together and built something that solved an immediate issue…. Even TWU as big as it was…I was just in the police department. That was a big place, but my place inside that big place didn’t take advantage of everything I’d learned in getting the grad degree.” – Daniel Lemire * While Daniel was working at TWU and wrapping up his graduate degree, he received a call from a gaming buddy from his time as an undergraduate who suggested he consider a role at PepsiCo. + The role Daniel’s friend mentioned was a contract role for loading operating systems on servers before they get shipped to specific sites. His friend’s description of the role was a little nebulous. + As a result of their discussion, Daniel got connected with the recruiter for this role. He was intially worried about asking for too much money but found what he asked for was in range per the recruiter. Daniel was really excited about the possibility of a full-time role. + After Daniel was passed along to the hiring manager to interview for this role, the manager asked him how he felt about working weekends during the interview. Daniel was honest and communicated working on Sundays was not something he could do. After the discussion with the hiring manager, the recruiter called Daniel to let him know it wasn’t going to work out and that this was a weekend job (not something that was previously communicated to Daniel as part of the process). - “This isn’t going to work out because this actually is a weekend job. And I didn’t know that. That wasn’t disclosed in the conversations she and I had or in the job description details that were in front of me. I was just answering the questions honestly because that’s what the right thing to do was. That job didn’t work out for me….” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel could not commit to the schedule for this role because it conflicted with his church activities. * A few months later, the same recruiter called Daniel saying there was another open position for which he might be a fit. This role was better pay than the first one he had interviewed for and was more focused on the systems engineering work Daniel had been doing. + This job ended up being a role on the same team as the friend who recommended Daniel apply at PepsiCo. Daniel’s friend removed himself from being part of the interview process to prevent conflicts of interest. + Daniel built a good rapport with one of the decision makers and was hired quickly as a systems engineer. He started with PepsiCo working on Windows Server automation. Daniel was considered analyst level and not a lead engineer. + Daniel says he had been doing more programming and coding than working with hardware coming into this role, and he was able to learn a great deal in this role. + “That then was a huge opportunity for me because I got to get into something that was completely new. The hardware focus was something that I wasn’t used to…. I got to go deep into something I thought was going to advance my career because I didn’t know enough about hardware. I got to work on a team inside of an enterprise, and I really wanted that enterprise experience after I got the grad degree because I had all of this stuff in my head that I couldn’t really quite use yet.” – Daniel Lemire - At TWU, there was no need to decide which server vendor to use. A specific vendor was the established server provider. + The paycheck for this job was a great opportunity for Daniel to provide steady income for his family. They were able to buy a house and discuss starting a family. + There were opportunities all over the place after starting at PepsiCo. Getting in and doing well could set someone up for a career there rather than just a job.
15:14 – Confidence and Feedback* When Daniel was only doing consulting work, he was not around other people doing the same type of work outside of some mentors who provided guidance. Being in the graduate program put Daniel around other people doing similar work and helped him understand he had the ability to do well in this field. It produced a confidence that seems to have catapulted him through the interviews for roles at PepsiCo. + In the last couple of years Daniel has learned how essential confidence is in getting us to what’s next. + Daniel has seen a number of people be overconfident and run into numerous problems as a result. A sensitivity to these kinds of people may have affected the way he thought about confidence in the past. + “Finding the way to get yourself the self-confidence so that you can convey what you know to other people enables you to explain the value that you can create for them, and that’s how we do business together.” – Daniel Lemire * Nick mentions an element of feedback as well throughout Daniel’s story from teachers and friends. His friend recommending the role at PepsiCo is the next iteration of that feedback. + Daniel tells us he was not seeking feedback early in his career, but he was getting it. + “If you asked me about it now, I would expressly tell you that feedback is probably the most important element of being successful. It’s going to give you an early warning sign when you’re on the wrong path, and it’s going to push you in the right direction when you’re on the right path.” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel remembers a book he was reading back when he and his wife were dating that encouraged only dating people you are serious about. Otherwise, it is a waste of time. Daniel says feedback is how you prevent wasting your time. + In Daniel’s case, feedback he received was unsolicited early on. Nick has heard podcasters say that getting no feedback (good or bad) about your podcast is a bad sign. + Daniel works from home and puts post-it notes on his monitor that only he can see. One of the notes says, “what experiments are you doing?” - “In the absence of feedback, you can do experiments and see and evaluate yourself. Is this moving me in the right direction? …The reality is it creates the delta between what you’re doing and what you could be doing…. If you are changing things, generally you are going to get a response. Either somebody’s really going to like it, or they’re really going to hate it. But either way, you’re going to get some feedback.” – Daniel Lemire + John says a corollary to not getting feedback is perhaps no one cares enough. - Even if someone cares negatively and thinks you’re wrong, at least someone cares enough to criticize and maybe set you on the right path. - “Whatever you’re doing, make a ripple.” – Daniel Lemire
20:39 – Enterprise Experience Meets Educational Background* Once Daniel started working in an enterprise environment at PepsiCo, did everything he had learned in his graduate program start to click with his experience immediately, or did it take a while for that to happen? + “I can tell you that basically from the moment I landed, everything started to make sense about that grad degree…immediately. I felt like I was Superman and had X-Ray vision because everywhere I looked the pieces were fitting together…. The part that I didn’t appreciate about knowing all of that was the engineer in me was also immediately frustrated because I could see where things were broken, and I wanted desperately to fix them.” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel was able to understand how upper-level leaders were making deicisions thanks to what he had studied. As someone new to the organization, it was important to execute his job well and build credibility. Credibility was necessary for speaking up later in attempts to impact organizational decision making. + “I’m delighted to say that was the easy part. Being good at the thing that I was responsible for was what allowed me to consistently exceed the objectives that were handed to me. And to a large degree they were handed to me…especially in the early days of making any kind of decision about how things were going to work. It was just ‘this is what we need to accomplish. Go get it done.’” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel enjoyed writing code and working in the server lab to make things work. - He was a contractor in the beginning and was left out of organizational politics. Daniel reminds us that contractors should stay out of organizational politics because it can lead to trouble. - Daniel did well in his role as a contractor and was helpful to the people around him, earning a reputation that would get him to full-time employee status about 1.5 years later. Daniel even did well enough to negotiate a little bit on his full-time employment offer. - “I could that time as a contractor as my time at PepsiCo because, really, the things that I was working on were my responsibility. I owned the thing that I was given.” – Daniel Lemire * Though it no longer removed him from politics of the organization, being a full-time employee meant Daniel got to be part of the progression and accomplishments of a large enterprise. He enjoyed seeing the datacenter and how computing was handled at the scale of the organization’s needs. * Daniel knew the combination of growing himself, doing the technical things that needed to be done, and leveraging his graduate degree would help him progress within the organization. The company made investments in Daniel as an employee in the form of training, for example. * Was this Daniel’s way of answering the question from the person at church from long ago about what he was doing to grow himself? + Yes – it’s about having a vision and intention for where you want to go in the future to avoid standing still. + Daniel brings up the physics concept of entropy. Standing still means you are degrading. + “You’re always in some phase of change, so if you have any control at all, make sure that your phase is going up and not down. Because if you’re not paying attention to it, entropy is playing on the system, and things are going to naturally degrade.” – Daniel Lemire
25:10 – Gaining Organizational Perspective* John mentions Daniel’s first experience in an enterprise was in a very large one. For very large enterprises, it takes a lot of time and effort to move in a direction the organization is not already moving (i.e. the container ship analogy). How did Daniel see this in his experience? + Daniel started in an individual contributor role. He was not responsible for a program or for people. The graduate degree gave him the context to interpret different situations within the company. + “In any sufficiently large environment there are the official things, the things that everybody says because it’s what they have to say or it’s the dialogue they have to carry through. Then there are the things behind the scenes, the real actual games that you’re playing, and there’s a whole different set of rules that are associated to that. And the sooner you can understand the difference between the rules they say they’re using and the rules they’re actually using, the more likely you are to be successful. And to me, that graduate degree gave me to tools I needed to understand not just what was said but what was not said and what that meant for me. So even though I didn’t have that responsibility, I could see the things that were being done from an organizational perspective and translate that into being able to decipher what the bigger next move was.” – Daniel Lemire + In Daniel’s role as an individual contributor, he knew they needed to iterate on a server build or support new equipment with hardware refreshes over time, for example. The technology strategy of the organization and business leader perception of the technology organization were things Daniel could still observe in his role. - “I was able to see both the good and the bad from a position that I could learn a lot without having to carry any of the responsibility about making those decisions. And I think that was really the thing that shot me ahead from my enterprise career perspective…. I was able to gather a lot of information in a very short period of time because I was able to contextualize it with the graduate degree.” – Daniel Lemire - Many of Daniel’s peers who didn’t have the same education had trouble making sense of things the company was doing (i.e. why decisions were being made certain ways), even to the point of frustration at times. Even if Daniel didn’t agree with a decision, he could contextualize it and understand it. + Did Daniel try to explain some of what he knew / understood about the organization from his education to his colleagues, or did that feel too assumptive? - Daniel says he’d be willing to have a 1-1 conversation with people about his observations. - In the audience of an entire team or a senior leader, Daniel held his tongue. Looking back on it now, Daniel thinks he could have provided more value by sharing some of his analysis of the situations with others. - “…I did have some of the right ideas, but what I didn’t have that I now fully comprehend is I didn’t know how to say things in a way that would be received well. In other words…my early days…while I was good at providing critical feedback, it was critical feedback. I didn’t know how to say things in a way that was polite or nondestructive…. I had some critical moments in my career where I had some very critical feedback, and I let it out in a way that was not constructive or useful. And that limited what I could do from a career perspective…. So, it’s kind of one of those double-edged swords. Don’t bite your tongue unnecessarily, but at the same time, be sure that you can say it in a way that is constructive and helpful.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel says the internalization of frustration has come out in his tone at times. Even now, Daniel has to be mindful of not putting himself in a situation that is overly stressful or frustrating because those conversations don’t usually go well. - Daniel might have known the right thing to do but didn’t know how to convince others or use what he knew to persuade them. + Daniel highlights how valuable it was to bounce ideas off his peers within the company. - We can easily recognize who knows their stuff / area really well and might seek these people out for a discussion. - It’s important to be really good at what we do. Daniel says it can lead us to new opportunities because people seek us out as experts. - “That’s why you have to balance the doing the things that you’re not good at and exercising the things that you are good at. If you get too far into the doing things that you’re not good at, it lessens the number of opportunities that you have. So, you have to be really strategic about diving into the deep end too far. You have to continue to do the things that you’re not good at but do it in a way that leverages the things that you are so you don’t get into the red zone. That’s one of the things that I’ve learned, and we’ll touch on that a little bit later…. The very first thing I took away from that experience was find the right people and talk to them on a 1-1 basis…. Finding great people is a huge career builder.” – Daniel Lemire - Talking to the right people 1-1 allows you to test out what you’re seeing and get some feedback. Also, these discussions allow you to identify who you can work well with to take advantage of it later on in your career.
33:42 – The Cascade of Objectives* Does finding the right people mean building champions for your personal brand? + Daniel says yes – this idea of brand building is true everywhere. + “You have to be able to tell someone in a very short period of time what your value is, and that is your brand, no matter what you’re doing, no matter how large or small the organization is. You do have to think about that to some degree and have a plan for that. That’s something I lucked myself into.” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel can look back and see that he was doing the right things to build a strong personal brand early in his career, but he didn’t quite understand what he was doing at the time. * Nick thinks most people do not know how to succinctly articulate the value they bring to situation / job / role without some reflection, writing, etc. We can get some of this from the feedback received from others. + Daniel was having conversations with other people 1-1 but was not consciously thinking of what things he was doing should be put on his resume. + Daniel worked for a company which required employees to write down and track their yearly objectives (including evidence of progress made to reach those objectives). This helped him think through resume-type items. It is a benefit of working for large organizations (mandates to use specific systems to complete these types of exercises). + “I can honestly say with reflection that that’s one of the best things an organization does for their employees because it forces you to do something that will make you better whether you want it to or not…. If you’re in a position today where you’re not given that system, the best thing you can do for yourself is to literally write it down. What are you going to do? And then look at it again multiple times to ask yourself ‘what am I doing about that’ and ‘how did you do so far?’ The most successful people write it down. They think about it. They talk about it, and then they write it down and then evaluate it later. And that is so essential, and I didn’t really appreciate that until just recently.” – Daniel Lemire + John mentions in his most recent role he was asked to go through the OKR (objectives and key results) process. He had done this before at Google. - In a leadership position it can be harder to take OKRs from an upstream leader and then re-contextualize for downstream team members. But it does provide a common understanding of how everyone will be measured. - John agrees writing and tracking objectives can be a great resume builder. It helps someone articulate how they were measured and the steps they took to accomplish the objective(s). - Daniel calls this process a cascade or translation of the objectives down to a manager’s direct reports. This process was one of the most difficult things for Daniel when he was a people manager (the translation process). - “Whether or not you’re great at it, you have to do it because if you are not doing it, the people that you’re responsible for supporting and helping don’t get the context that they need for why it is they’re doing what they are doing…. Just improving yourself in a vacuum is actually one of the biggest roadblocks to organizational success…. That’s what a critical manager does…they make sure that the individual is able to grow and carry through the responsibilities but to do it in a way that it doesn’t jeopardize the rest of the system. So, in some ways you might say that those middle managers are the transmission that connects the engine to the wheels. You can have a great engine, but if it never gets connected to the wheels, you’re not going anywhere.” – Daniel Lemire - When people get really good at building their own thing, it might not interface well with the rest of the organization. - Daniel mentions he sees many people get excited about what they can do with AI. It may be empowering to an individual, but we might want to jump in to make ourselves more effective without considering the larger organizational impacts doing this will have. A senior developer might be able to build great applications with AI (perhaps even using AI for the things they might ask a junior developer to do), but not working with a junior developer means the person is not being fostered to develop into a senior developer. There’s a downstream impact here that comes up later on. - “The other thing that as individual contributors and managers that we should all be thinking about is, ‘how do I optimize for today without putting myself in a difficult situation for tomorrow?’ We have to think about both the short and the long term, and we have to help the rest of the organization do that as well. That’s probably the challenge for the next decade as we get the most advanced technology that man has ever seen and try to put that together with humans.” – Daniel Lemire
41:05 – Technical Leadership and a Change in Strategy* What made Daniel move toward people management in the first place? He shared some insight into this earlier, but we want the full story. + The first step in the process was moving from build engineer to technical lead. Daniel tells us he was not responsible for managing direct reports in this role but focused on making a greater impact on the overall team and the work they were doing. + Daniel says progressing to technical lead was a natural progression. When he looked around, Daniel once again realized he had an aptitude in this area. After observing the systems and the way work was done, it naturally led Daniel to persuade members of the team to take slightly different approaches that were more optimal. It was about influencing the direction of the work people on the team were doing and how they were thinking. + Daniel shares an anecdote from his COBOL class in college. When students were getting caught up in small details, the professor commented that the class “couldn’t see the forest for the trees.” The professor reiterated to the class that they were focusing too much on the small details and not thinking about what they were trying to accomplish. - The above is exactly what kept happening in Daniel’s technical conversations with others. Daniel had to encourage people to look at the larger picture, and it kept happening. - “And that just sort of kept happening. It was just sort of a natural progression to where I was helping them with those individual things that they needed to accomplish but also helping to make things mesh more easily as we had to put things together because I was consistently finding myself in the situation where I had to negotiate the interface between the work that we were doing and the value that it was creating. I didn’t understand that at the time, but that’s actually what I was doing now reflecting back on it.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel might have to tell someone that reprogramming a specific function again and again was not going to deliver the results the team needed (build a server faster). Sometimes an optimization we are making will not improve the system, and value only gets generated when the system is improved. + Daniel says he spent the middle decade of his career in that contextualization area we spoke about earlier. He was at PepsiCo for nearly 16 years. - The first couple of years were getting technically oriented and finding ways to contribute to the team. - The career progression of others gave Daniel the opportunity to move up / progress within thr company. Daniel would ask for specific work / projects, and his manager could see his talent and would in the future look for opportunities to leverage those talents. - “They understood that I was capable and that if they gave it to me, it would get done well. That made things better for them, and that made things better for me.” – Daniel Lemire - In being the technical lead, Daniel appreciated that he did not need to deal with HR things. In this role he was able to accomplish a number of things he is very proud of but also limited his growth from a manager perspective. - “I don’t have any regrets about not moving into that manager space sooner…. I was able to observe all of that without having to be responsible for it. For me, that responsibility is a mantle that I want to put on, but when I do put it on, it is something that weighs me down. There is a cost for me in taking on that. I take it very seriously.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel stayed in the technically focused contributor role for a long time. He did not have to take on being someone’s manager and existed to support others technically and to help them grow. + It was the organizational strategy inside the company that started to affect Daniel’s career trajectory. - There was a lot of outsourcing happening for various reasons (optimization, globalization, etc.), and it impacted Daniel’s colleagues over time and the relationships he had built with them. The changes meant Daniel had to seek out new people to work with on various projects, and instead of working in the same office as Daniel, these people were in a different part of the world and from a different culture. - “You’re building your network. Every person you have a good rapport with that goes somewhere else…that creates totally new avenues of opportunity for you.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel was frustrated that colleagues had to leave the company, but he also had work to do and decided to focus on what needed to be done (the things he could control). This was building Daniel’s frustration in ways he did not understand at the time. - Daniel says he often tries to compartmentalize things and uses the analogy of a waffle to illustrate. - “Don’t think about just work or just family. Sit down and think about all of the elements of your life and how they are going to fit together. Because if they don’t fit together, it will come around to bite you later.” – Daniel Lemire, on compartmentalization - The organization’s decision finally impacted Daniel. The company decided to outsource all infrastructure services. This was a very challenging time for Daniel. He had to hand over systems and processes he had built to someone he had never met. It was a difficult reality but a reality he had to face. - “It was to the point where my management team actually said to me at one point – ‘Daniel, you don’t do that work anymore. That’s not yours. That’s not your job. Your job is to make sure that things get done, not how they get done.’ And I had a really hard time with that…. A big part of my pride was the work that I had produced. Essentially, what that meant to me was that the work that I had done, that I had spent the better part of a decade to be effective at, really was not valued…. There was a time of struggle there for me, and that began the sort of searching mode…going back to the very early experience where I found out…that’s not where I’m going to be now. Now what? And it was because I recognized that what I was doing was no longer the path forward, I kind of had to have a reset.” – Daniel Lemire
Mentioned in the Outro* It sounded like gaining the enterprise was the right place for Daniel. Doing his work well was the groundwork for developing a great reputation, but Daniel was also observing the organization and looking at the way decisions were made. At first, he did not have the influence to change any decisions, but he got at least some influence at the technical lead level. + This began with remaining open to new opportunities just like in his early career (i.e. recommendations based on the feedback from others). As he started to observe the enterprise of PepsiCo, he began looking for new opportunities inside the company. These types of opportunities didn’t exist at the companies where Daniel had worked previously due to their size. * Does your company have you set and track objectives? If so, are you doing it well? + If you don’t have this requirement, you can still document objectives and progress toward them on your own. + Maybe we should document and track our experiments too. Nick thinks we should still track things even if they initially seem unrelated. They might be more relatable to your next role than you think! * Other episodes that pair nicely with this episode: + Episode 284 – Draft Your Narrative: Writing and Building a Technical Portfolio with Jason Belk (2/2) - Jason Belk reminds us of the importance of a career narrative. We need documentation of the work we are doing to generate and practice that narrative! + Episode 267 – A Theme of Learning with Erik Gross (1/3) - Erik talks about a moment when his classroom learning in the Nuclear Engineering program met experience.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
If your career was a product, what would the current release notes say? Just as product managers launch a minimum viable product (MVP) and enhance it based on customer feedback, Daniel Lemire unknowingly began building his career this way starting in high school.
This week in episode 323 you’ll hear about Daniel’s early aspirations to be a pilot in the Air Force and the phone call that forced him to change directions. It was a reliance on his faith, his aptitude for computers, and an openness to feedback from friends and teachers that prompted Daniel to study management information systems in college. Follow along as we explore the timeline over which Daniel decided to become an independent consultant, gained technical expertise and experience through building systems to deliver value, and ultimately decided to pursue an advanced degree. With each decision along the way, Daniel chose to take a step forward very much like a product release adds features and enhancements.
If you thought of where you are now as a MVP, where could you go from here?
Original Recording Date: 03-20-2025
Topics – Meet Daniel Lemire, An Early Deviation from the Plan, Self-Awareness and the Gift of Explanations, A Tinkering Instinct and the Cycle of Confidence, Consulting and a Return to the Familiar, The System Builder, Thoughts on Product Management, Getting an Advanced Degree2:31 – Meet Daniel Lemire* Daniel Lemire is an AI Consultant working for ServiceNow. He gets to speak with senior leaders about the use of artificial intelligence in their organization specific to the ServiceNow platform. It’s a pretty popular topic of conversation these days. + Daniel enjoys driving influence and helping organizations create value, and throughout the course of his career, Daniel has learned to calibrate the use of technology against the creation of value.
3:39 – An Early Deviation from the Plan* How did Daniel get into technology in the first place? + Daniel’s middle school had a computer lab, and he and several others were part of a computer club. In addition to this, Daniel was fortunate to have a computer at home in the early 1990s and play games on it and discuss computers with friends. + Going into high school, Daniel wanted to be a pilot. He wanted to attend the Air Force Academy and eventually become an officer. Daniel was working to do everything he could to hit that goal. - Daniel tells the story of a phone call from an Air Force recruiter during his sophomore year of high school. During the course of that phone call, Daniel learned he was disqualified from serving in the Air Force because of his asthma. + “So immediately I found myself in this position of…if it’s not the Air Force, what are my plans? …Am I just going to go find a school to become a pilot and continue down that path with a different means, or am I going to do something completely different? …Honestly, I kind of threw up my hands, and I said a prayer. I said, ‘God, this is what I wanted to do, and this is not how I thought this was going to go. What should I do?’ And, over the next few weeks, the computer thing became increasingly an area of focus.” – Daniel Lemire + Conversations with friends and some teachers helped Daniel realize he had some talent when it came to computers. They encouraged him to spend time in that area. - From then on, Daniel would find ways to do different things with a computer because it was something he enjoyed. - “Any time you can take something you enjoy and turn that into value is really great.” – Daniel Lemire + As a senior in high school, Daniel took a computer maintenance course and learned all about computer hardware. - Taking this class provided things to Daniel that he did not know he needed. - Daniel was good at using Microsoft Office software and really enjoyed programming after taking a course on it. - Daniel also took a typing course from a typewriting teacher. Students took it as if they were using a typewriter. Making 3 errors meant you failed the typing exercise. Daniel says he was not great at not making mistakes back then but understands he would not type at the speed he does now without the experience of taking this course. + High school courses set Daniel up nicely to choose a computer-related course of study in college – Management Information Systems (MIS) or Computer Science. - When taking tours of potential colleges, Daniel would visit the computer lab on campus and make sure he visited both computer science and business information systems personnel. - Since math was not Daniel’s primary interest, the business side of computing was better suited for Daniel. + Daniel ended up at the University of North Texas (or UNT). Daniel says one of the biggest benefits of their program was learning both new and older technologies. When he entered UNT in 1999 it was one of only a few colleges that allowed students to work on a mainframe.
8:59 – Self-Awareness and the Gift of Explanations* Nick likes the way Daniel handled the setback related to being a pilot and putting his effort into an alternate path. Most people would have had a lot more trouble. * Daniel says he didn’t have enough life experience to dissuade himself from taking the next right action. * Nick points out Daniel had enough information to select a course of study that fit with his strengths and his interests in the best way. + Daniel says self-awareness is not something we talk about enough. + “I’m very much a striver. I will do things that are very hard for myself just because I want to accomplish something really big, and there is absolutely a time for taking on those big things. But you also have to do it from the context of…what am I good at, and what can I get started with right here where I am?” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel says it wasn’t just his interest in computing that drove him to it. It also had to do with other people’s observations of his interest in it. As a result of both, he was open to pursuing computing in his course of study instead of continuing to search. + In high school, students were given some recommendations for future courses of study – something in thr arts, something in science / math / engineering, or some sort of specialization in a different area. - Daniel says he was ok at math but really enjoyed physics because it was very conceptual. He would work on math problems and make simple mistakes. - “…so being able to capitalize on the part that I was good at in getting into that computing career I think was the other piece of it – knowing that I was good at it and being convinced in the shortest time possible that that was the path for me by being open.” – Daniel Lemire * Did someone encourage Daniel to look at both the computer science and management information systems options when he was visiting colleges, or did he naturally investigate both on his own? + Daniel listened to the feedback he was getting from high school teachers, and he specifically mentions his typing teacher. + Daniel took the typing course as a sophomore in high school, and that teacher recognized his aptitude with computers. Daniel would help her from time to time and would later become her teacher’s aide. - In a number of their conversations, the typing teacher would ask about Daniel’s future career plans. - Daniel says it was not a coincidence that he had this teacher in his life at the same time the Air Force said no to him. * John says around this same time many people might have said they were good with computers, but they likely meant they were good at playing computer games. This is very different than using computers to solve problems and seeing them as systems because you’ve taken the time to understand the internal mechanics of the system. + Daniel says having access to computer technology at home what critical in all of this. + Daniel tells the story of trying to tweak configuration files on his computer to get a game to run and breaking everything. Daniel’s mother had a friend from church who was able to come over and fix the computer problem. + “He could have showed up and been like, ‘Daniel, what an idiot. I can’t believe you would do something like this.’ He could have fixed it and just walked away, but he took the time to sit me down and say, ‘ok, I see what you did here. Now let me explain it to you so that you can understand it.’ It was that taking of the time that really made a difference, and I haven’t forgotten that because we get so tied up in ourselves that we forget what it is to give that kind of a gift to somebody else. That’s an invaluable opportunity, and I learned so much through that and was able to convert that into a win time and again because somebody invested those few minutes in me by explaining something I just didn’t understand.” – Daniel Lemire
16:28 – A Tinkering Instinct and the Cycle of Confidence* John says listeners recognize the tinkering instinct, and the experimentation we participate in through it ends up benefitting us. Losing some of the fear of doing irreparable harm to a system allows us to learn even more. + Daniel feels this played a big role in his story and has told people he is addicted to the “undo” button. + “The further up in the career you get the more likely it is you’ll get yourself in trouble by making a bad decision, but if you’re able to identify those areas where you make mistakes less often or you can set things up in a way that you can make those mistakes without them being harmful…I really think that is a key to success.” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel stresses the importance of opportunities for iteration. How often do we put ourselves in situations where we don’t have to get something right the first time so we can take advantage of an opportunity for growth and learning (i.e. a new skill, a new system, etc.)? - “Any time you can setup a scenario where you don’t have to get it right the first time, but you can benefit from it if you do is so essential to the journey…. You can really get ahead when things are going well but avoid yourself getting into an unrecoverable situation from there on out.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel mentions the Agile methodology and cites a quote by Jeff Bezos about making decisions that are easily changeable if they start you in the wrong direction. - “I don’t need to know that this is the right answer right now. I just need to know enough to make the next step. That’s where I was in the early part of that career…. That showed up again and again as I continued my education…. It really became critical when I got out of college.” – Daniel Lemire * Going into college, Daniel didn’t know the world was about to have an internet bubble burst. + He was very excited about working for EDS (a premier IT company many people wanted to work for) and felt he was well-prepared to do that. * Daniel talks about taking an internet computing course in which students had to build a business plan for an internet-based company and then execute on it. There was a competition as part of the final exam involving a mock proposal. Daniel was on one of the 3 teams which had to deliver a presentation at the offices of Sabre. He learned 3 things from that experience: + One doesn’t need to know everything to do something impactful or interesting. It’s about knowing enough to build a business plan and a prototype you can showcase for feedback. + Near the beginning of Daniel’s presentation at Sabre, the computer crashed. He had printed out the speaker slides and notes and knew what points to hit to finish the rest of the presentation. - The very first time Daniel needed to present in front of a group, his hands were shaking. It took many presentations in front of people to get over it. Doing the presentation at that time was a huge deal for Daniel because he was not comfortable as a presenter. Having those notes eased his anxiety. - We should not underestimate the value of preparation when going into an intimidating situation because it can boost our confidence. - “It’s funny how your current experiences can crystalize that looking back on those moments. And I can absolutely tell you from a career perspective, what I didn’t appreciate at the time was how much a difference that confidence made in my success…. I totally understand that now because I had to go through the entire cycle of you’re confident, you’re not confident. How do I get that back to do and tackle the next big challenge?” – Daniel Lemire
23:12 – Consulting and a Return to the Familiar* John points out Daniel’s willingness to attack something he was not comfortable with. We’ve previously seen a pattern John refers to as Smart Kid Syndrome which hinders growth when people do not invest in weak areas so they can be perceived as being good / highly skilled at things (i.e. the opposite of a growth mentality). In Daniel’s case, he found the things that made him feel comfortable in uncomfortable situations and went back to them. + Not long after the presentation at Sabre, Daniel obtained his degree but could not enter the workforce. There were no job openings, and it was a time of many layoffs. Daniel had no choice but to fall back on some of the things he knew to make himself successful. + Daniel had proposed to his wife before that last year of college, and they were married the summer after graduation. His wife got a job as a graphic designer to provide planned family income. + “I fell back on what I knew, which quite candidly, was what I learned in that ecommerce course.” – Daniel Lemire + Before most people really knew what building a web presence for businesses would mean long-term, Daniel knew it was something he could do. He began a journey as an independent consultant. It was something he knew how to do and a place he could create value without a full-time job working for a specific company. - “I kept looking for that opportunity to work for somebody else, but it never materialized. And I made the best of the situation I was in…. I have a marketable skill. I just have to find somebody that wants to pay me to build a website.” – Daniel Lemire, on going into consulting after college - Small jobs here and there helped Daniel improve as a consultant. + Daniel tells the story of moving back home for the summer before his last semester of college. At his father’s medical clinic, the systems manager suddenly quit. - This was 2002, and the clinic adopted an electronic medical record system. It was critical that the systems stayed running to handle the patient load. - Daniel’s father asked him to fill in until they could find someone to take the role of systems manager full-time. - Daniel understood what his father’s business did at a high level, and he chose to take the opportunity, knowing he would learn something from the situation, even if he was only needed for a short time. - “I wound up spending nearly the entire summer there, and while I was there, we kept finding things that I could help out with. I could build a database for tracking the number of patients they were caring for. I built a payroll management database where they could keep track of time off and holidays…. I built a whole bunch of systems, actually. It was well more than just doing the networking and the PCs. And of course, there were things that I was out of my depth at. But you make those mistakes, and you learn. And in an operational environment having the wherewithal to just fight through and not give up on the problem and stay late until you get it working was really the key to the success in doing that…. I carried that into the consulting business…. That had convinced me…that I do know enough about this and that I can do the things that need to be done. Now, I just need to find the right people to do it for.” – Daniel Lemire
28:41 – The System Builder* Was Daniel finding the problems in that environment that he could solve and providing the solutions because he decided to go have conversations with people about what they were doing, or was it based on ideas he got by being put into the environment? + Daniel says it was a combination of both. + For example, he could see a process and the amount of labor it took to complete the process like working with patient records. Daniel cites some early daily conversations with one of the head nurses about the work she was doing. - Daniel could see the head nurse was reinventing a solution for the work she needed to do each day. He knew it was a repeatable process that could be turned into a database system that would make the nurse’s job easier. - “I wasn’t afraid of that because I had done enough in the college courses to know that I could do it and that it was going to be a functional system that would add value.” – Daniel Lemire, on building a database system for one of the head nurses at a medical clinic + The head nurse began to tell other people in the office about what Daniel had built for her. The accountant / payroll specialist asked Daniel if he could build her a system to track nurses and their time off. - Daniel says this was much more technically involved than what he did with the head nurse. - The accountant knew what she wanted and knew enough about how the system should function so that Daniel could ask deeper questions to capture the requirements and how data should be tabulated and calculated. + “Reflecting back on that journey, one of the things that I have a much better appreciation for in my late career is that idea of getting quick success on something that’s going to get you momentum in the right direction.” – Daniel Lemire - We can often get into something that is too much of a challenge or something so valuable that we won’t do it unless someone pays a high price for it. - To Nick, this sounds like perfectionism. - Doing great work without thinking about how to make it perfect seems like a dichotomy on the surface.“But the truth is, no one ever does anything perfect the first time, so the art of perfection isn’t about how you get it right the first time. It’s about how you keep at it until it’s good, and I understand that now in ways that I couldn’t comprehend back then.” – Daniel Lemire
33:12 – Thoughts on Product Management* John says Daniel’s colleague in payroll sounds a lot like what we might call a product manager today. Product managers guide the product vision, help establish a minimum viable product to release and then foster feature enhancements and their priority over time. + The idea of a minimum viable product and adding features over time is to get feedback along the way instead of building something huge and fully featured without any feedback until its release. * Daniel tells us about being a Windows guy from the beginning. When his wife had to use a Mac for graphics, he didn’t understand why someone would want a more expensive computer with less flexibility (i.e. computer games). * The growth of computing has a ton of lore behind it. We can’t really think about the PC without thinking about Bill Gates and the work he did. Daniel mentions what Bill Gates did with the acquisition of DOS. + Gates developed a reputation early on for developing applications (Windows, Office) that worked well enough to do a job despite not being particularly well engineered. + Daniel says Microsoft was likely as successful as it has been from the willingness to put products out there to create value, even if the products were not perfect. + “I want to call out to all of my friends in technology not to underestimate how important that value proposition is for everything that you do. We get so caught up in the technical that we don’t think about that. That’s why that role I think has become so essential…. We know what we want sometimes, and we’re just frustrated if we can’t get it…. You need somebody that can sit between those two positions and sort of negotiate between multiple different parties…. And that’s what they master – that balance between being the best and getting something done.” – Daniel Lemire, on the role of the product manager + A product manager consistently calibrates between being technically great and getting something completed. This takes into consideration the needs of developers and the demands of a business end user. Daniel feels the product manager’s role is becoming more important and not less when it comes to nascent technologies. + Nick thinks a product manager is a personification of the inner struggle with perfectionism. + Daniel says sometimes the product manager acts as a tiebreaker when there is gridlock between 2 sides so action can be taken. + “I think that’s the key. Whatever it is, be taking action.” – Daniel Lemire
37:47 – Getting an Advanced Degree* Daniel had some success with consulting and making money. He built a content management system before WordPress was a thing and expanded it into tracking customers and contacts. Daniel is still very proud of this work. + In a lot of ways Daniel is a contemporary of the ServiceNow founders, but the ServiceNow founders were way better at product market fit. + “Sometimes it’s not how technically talented you are. It is finding the right people to work with that makes the big difference…. When I found a customer that would let me really geek out and build them a big system, we both won…. That’s what I wanted to do. I just wanted to build great systems. I didn’t want to be a sales guy. I didn’t want to be a marketing guy. That was not something that I was prepared for or had a desire to do, and I also recognized that I just wasn’t any good at it. Sometimes you have to cut your losses and go with the things that excite you.” – Daniel Lemire - Daniel learned about moving toward interesting things during his high school experience (i.e. how he got into computers). + Once Daniel got a job doing work for a client, he would get so into it that he would stop doing marketing and sales. After finishing a job is when Daniel would start thinking about his next consulting engagement. He might spend a month or more trying to figure out how to land the next customer. * At this point, Daniel started talking with other people about his path forward from the current state of consulting. + “I wasn’t finding great success at doing the consulting thing, and I knew I had the aptitude to really create value. I just wasn’t…in the right place.” – Daniel Lemire + Daniel recalls someone older (probably from church) asking what he was doing to allow himself to grow while he was in this “middle space.” + Daniel thought about the question and said he would like to get an advanced degree at some point, but he knew that would be expensive and really needed to make money to support him and his wife (who had just enough to make ends meet at the time). + “If you’re thinking about an advanced degree, your life is never going to be less busy because you’re going to add all of these things that you want to do. You’re going to have kids. You’re going to have a career. You’re going to be doing things with your family and your church and your community. If you feel like you have time to take something else on…just go get that advanced degree now while you have the time.” – Daniel Lemire, on advice he was given + Daniel started to look into the advanced degree and learned a program at UNT would let him double dip from undergraduate coursework and reduce the number of hours for a master’s degree significantly. Daniel was able to complete the degree slowly over about 3 years, feeling it was a much better use of his time. + “It gave me a much better appreciation of how businesses worked. The challenge was I didn’t have the context of experience to put with it.” – Daniel Lemire
Mentioned in the Outro* There is an element of humility involved when we realize we cannot solve a problem by ourselves. Daniel said a prayer to ask for wisdom after his plan to go into the Air Force wasn’t going to happen. He was also open to receiving feedback from other people who had ideas about what he should do. + Part of the humble attitude we need to have is this openness to accepting suggestions. In Daniel’s case, it made sense to act on the suggestions. It may not mean that in your case, but be open to the feedback so you can process it before making a decision. * The idea of taking a step forward even if you need to reverse it later sounds like a way to fight against perfectionism. We talked about product maangers doing this. It’s persistence without perfection. Listen to complimentary advice on perfectionism from the following episodes: + Kellyn Gorman spoke to us about – accepting work that is good enough and calibrating the quality of our work based on time constraints in Episode 320 – Becoming DBA Kevlar: Roadblocks, Perfectionism, and Technical Orienteering with Kellyn Gorman (1/3). + We did a 4-part series to review Finish by Jon Acuff full of strategies for fighting against perfectionism: - Episode 272 – Book Discussion: Finish, Part 1 – The Day after Perfect and Cut Your Goal in Half - Episode 273 – Book Discussion: Finish, Part 2 – Deliberate Time Investments and Avoiding Distractions - Episode 274 – Book Discussion: Finish, Part 3 – Get Rid of Your Secret Rules and Use Data to Celebrate Your Imperfect Progress - Episode 275 – Book Discussion: Finish, Part 4 – The Day before Done and Perfectionism’s Final Roadblocks
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
Why do you think women leave careers in technology? Sometimes they are bullied, but sometimes it’s the loneliness.
This week in episode 322, Kellyn Gorman shares the story of what moved her to start Women in Tech programs in the technical community, the lessons she learned from the Microsoft community, and what it was like returning to the Oracle community after an absence. You’ll hear about diversity, equity, and inclusion programs and some of the benefits and drawbacks they can create based on the experience of Kellyn and her husband.
Even advocates and community warriors need support from others and time to recharge. Kellyn shares how she is able to achieve both to continue supporting the community she loves.
Listen closely to learn how can you foster a more inclusive community for women in tech.
Original Recording Date: 02-21-2025
Kellyn Gorman is a database professional who has worked in the technology space for 25 years better known as DBAKevlar. If you missed parts 1 and 2 of our discussion with Kellyn, check out Episode 320 and Episode 321.
Topics – A Lonely Place in Tech, Returning to the Oracle Community, Encouraging the Contributions of Women in Tech, The Backlash of DEI, Being the Messenger and Getting Support3:31 – A Lonely Place in Tech* Did Kellyn’s initial struggles with public speaking and the challenges recalling her presentation topics have something to do with a lack of women attendees at the events, or was it just due to the large social setting in general? + “Being a woman in tech, especially a data infra specialist like I am…I’m not on the analytics side. I’m very large database. It’s a very lonely place.” – Kellyn Gorman + In 2011, someone Kellyn hired a woman she had previously worked with to come work with her again. - “I didn’t realize. We communicated differently between each other, and we had a great interaction. It was so nice to have someone else there that I could go to lunch with, that I didn’t have to worry about…. It sounds sad. I don’t want that. I want to feel the same way about guys that I work with. I love the guys. But it was different…. She was pretty much bullied out of the job, and I was angry…. This is the last woman that leaves. I had looked into the history and of the 8 women I worked with in my career, at that point 5 of them had left tech. I scheduled lunches with them, sat down and talked with them, and found out they had all left for all the same reasons when you got down to it. They had all left because of the sheer loneliness, the isolation, the lack of collaboration…and sometimes bullying. And it was just really sad. And I didn’t realize that I was often bullied, that I was often isolated and everything else. And I said, ‘we’ve got to fix this.’ So, I started doing Women in Tech programs within the Oracle community.” – Kellyn Gorman - Kellyn started the Women in Tech organizations for Kscope (an Oracle Developer and Technology conference) in Europe many years ago. + By the time Kellyn left, the women attending RMOUG went up to 22% from the former 7% because of these programs, and there were more women getting into the Oracle ACE program. - Kellyn would bring in different sponsors to promote women in tech. She would also get allies and other Oracle ACEs to personally promote specific women in the community and people of color. - “I took this stuff on head on. They’d come back and go, ‘she’s not technical.’ The women I’m talking about is now the lead speaker for AI in Oracle…. Absolutely took no prisoners. Did I get shot as the messenger? A lot! Worth it…I am Kevlar. I will be bulletproof as long as I can.” – Kellyn Gorman, on moving a community forward - Kellyn says the Oracle community has grown a lot. Listen to the way she describes how it once was when it came to treatment of women in tech. - “Now they’re more likely to be allies…. That means they’re growing too, and that’s what we want. It always has to be based on education, not on persecution…and we focus on that. And I learned that very much from the Microsoft community. The Microsoft community is much farther ahead than the Oracle community on those situations. They police their own. When somebody gets out of hand, the guys are right there behind the women going, ‘no, you will not do this. This is not good.’ They expect that equality, that inclusivity, and I think that’s really essential that you see that growth. As long as there’s growth, as long as you’re moving forward, that is extremely important. That’s kind of where I take this.” – Kellyn Gorman
7:53 – Returning to the Oracle Community* Kellyn has returned to the Oracle community after having to walk away from it for a little while. She is working to breathe some of the energy into it gained from being part of the Microsoft community but doesn’t feel she is quite there yet. + “Well, I don’t know if I’m there yet…. For women in tech, we call it the death by 1000 pin pricks. It may be death by 1000 cuts, death by 1000 small bullet dings. I am the messenger that got shot a lot…. At a certain point I stepped away from the Oracle community and was like, ‘this is not healthy. You’re taking too many hits for too many people. You need to go where you’re safe and loved. I am very safe and very loved in the Microsoft community. So, I did that…and it really was helpful.” – Kellyn Gorman - On the Microsoft side, Kellyn knew who paved the way for women in tech and understood the challenges involved. + Kellyn shares the story of returning to Oracle Cloud World after a long absence. She had not been there since 2019. - “…People coming up to me and giving me hugs and saying, ‘I couldn’t be where I am without you….’ I thought that no one remembered. I thought that no one cared.” – Kellyn Gorman, on returning to Oracle Cloud World - John mentions that he loves being judged by the people he helps. - Kellyn says it was lovely to know people cared about the efforts she had made during her earlier time in the Oracle community. It was an emotional moment. + Shortly after the conference, Kellyn was approached about speaking at the Oracle Data and Analytics Conference and Kscope. She has been confirmed as the keynote speaker for BOTH events! - Kellyn had submitted talks to both conferences, and they were moved up to keynotes. - “‘We feel that you kind of got a raw deal with Oracle, and we want to fix that.’ Those kind of approaches…you didn’t even realize people noticed the hits you were taking, you know? So that definitely has been really nice. Not only am I coming back into the Oracle community, but I’m coming back in a way that I’ve got keynotes. I have articles that are being published in a number of top magazines. I am able to contribute in a way that is very powerful…. I had this conversation the other day that they were having problems with the haters, and I said, ‘don’t ever even pull yourself down into that level. Always work up. Always stay up. Don’t ever let them pull you down.’ This allows me to go back into the Oracle community and not be pulled down by anybody, to be able to do the best that I can do and focus on that…because I was anxious about coming into the Oracle community again, anxious about the challenges and those feelings….” – Kellyn Gorman + Previous experiences in the Oracle community made Kellyn worry about getting into uncomfortable situations at events. A lot of events for the Oracle community may not have codes conduct or may be serving unlimited alcohol. This type of atmosphere lends itself to uncomfortable situations for women. - “In the Microsoft community, there are very strict code of conducts. There are very high expectations, and there are people looking out for each other. That makes a huge difference. That takes a huge weight off of people when you’re there as a woman in tech, and I would love to see that at all communities. I don’t think people understand how important that is. We’re there to learn.” – Kellyn Gorman - John mentions it is disappointing to hear about events with no code of conduct. - Kellyn mentions how proud she is of the Kscope event organizers. When she expressed the importance of a code of conduct, organizers immediately implemented it as part of the conference. - “We joke about it, but nobody wants the red card…that says you violated the code of conduct. DO not get a red card!” – Kellyn Gorman + Nick says we’re highlighting important considerations when joining a technical community. This can be approached similar to the way Kellyn looked for new jobs – approaching people on the inside to gain perspective. Get perspectives on women in tech from people in that community, ask about codes of conduct for events, etc. - Kellyn is also part of DevOps communities, which we didn’t get a chance to discuss. - Kellyn tells us she is just now getting involved with the Postgres Conference. Many people she knows from the Oracle and Microsoft communities are attending. Kellyn shares the message she had printed on some stickers as a reminder to others in the community. - “Assume that she is technical and capable of breathing fire. This is a saying that’s gone around the Microsoft community for a very long time. But I think we almost need little pins that say that just to keep us safe. It’s really important…. If I walk into a conference and I’m here to interact with my technical community and talk to people about tech and the only questions I receive are ‘how is your husband? Are you still living on the floating home? How are your kids?’ If I just get that over and over and over again, I wonder why I attended an event. This is with me speaking this has happened. So, I know it’s happening to other women, especially women that may be younger than me.” – Kellyn Gorman - Kellyn has given the keynote at an event being only 1 of 3 women at the entire event. She later attended a Girl Develop It event that had all women and only 1 man in attendance. - “It’s really interesting how the events are changed and how the interactions are and everything when you change up how inclusive or how different the attendance is for the people that are there.” – Kellyn Gorman, speaking of her experience at different community events
15:25 – Encouraging the Contributions of Women in Tech* This change up in inclusivity comes from leaders and board members of the community in question. Should someone consider speaking with those people before they join a community? + Even for local events, the board members for specific communities / user groups will often say they wanted more women speakers, but even those women who could have given a talk didn’t submit anything. + Kellyn shares a story of approaching different women to be co-authors on an Oracle Enterprise Manager book. + “I approached a couple different women that I really wanted on the book that really knew their stuff. And they were like, ‘well, let me think on it.’ And then they kept coming back, and they were like, ‘well, I want to make sure that I can do this.’ They wanted to make sure they were 110% sure they could do it; they wanted to make sure they had everything. I had guys who barely knew how to spell Enterprise Manager, and they’re like, ‘I can do it.’ It was insane…. It’s so important for women in tech and anywhere really to stop being so hard on themselves and really jump in. You’ll figure it out later. The women that do that really do as well or better than the guys around them. You gotta stop worrying so much.” – Kellyn Gorman + Kellyn feels her brain is wired more like many of the guys who had the attitude expressed above – jump in and figure things out along the way. Most women are not wired this way. They want to know they can contribute, they can succeed, and that they will not let anyone down in the process. + Kellyn says people don’t often encourage women not to worry so much. People often second guess women, and women are taught to second-guess themselves from very early on. - Take the example of a young boy bothering a young girl and the girl being told he probably likes her and that she misunderstood. Kellyn remembers her daughter coming home describing the same situation. It wasn’t that the little boy liked her daughter. It was bullying. - “To break ourselves out of that mold and just say , ‘I’m going to do this, and I’m not going to care what anybody else thinks’ is very hard…. I just learned really early on that most people are full of it and that I shouldn’t listen to them.” – Kellyn Gorman - John mentions the behavior of bullying is not an acceptable output regardless of what motivations might be behind it. * John likes Kellyn’s call out of differences in personalities such as the hesitance in committing to co-authoring a book due to a feeling of unworthiness. This is similar when men and women apply for jobs. + “A lot of times women will look at a list of skills that are being looked for or responsibilities and say…‘I’m missing two out of the fourteen, so I’m not going to apply….’ Some men will go, ‘well, I have two out of those fourteen. I’m probably the top candidate.’” – John White + Kellyn is proud of men for confidence but wants more women to have that same level of confidence. She has helped other women negotiate severance packages, job level classifications, and other things. + “Women are really good, by the way, at negotiating for other women. They should always bring another woman in because…we will fight to the death for each other…. People say we’re not as good at negotiating for ourselves. We are very good at negotiating for each other, and I do think we just need to talk it through….” – Kellyn Gorman + Kellyn says women are told not to be bossy or brazen, and it hurts them in the real world. + “But I also think a lot of women…they don’t submit talks because they don’t think anybody wants to hear what they’ve got to say. And a lot of women have a lot to contribute.” – Kellyn Gorman
20:23 – The Backlash of DEI* John talks about a book he read by Alison Fragale in which the author speaks to behaviors in the corporate world which are viewed as positive for men but negative for women. While this certainly needs to change, the book covers some ideas for mitigating this in the meantime. * Kellyn and her husband have worked together 4 times in total and have a unique working relationship. At Microsoft, Kellyn and her husband worked in the same role and on the same team. They have even served on the same boards together. + The two of them have even written e-mails for each other to see what would happen. + “…Something that was a little shocking to him was how he could say things, but I couldn’t. There were other times where he would know I was going to do better with some people. There were other times where I would be like, ‘you need Tim. You need to send Tim in. These guys will do better with Tim.’ There was also these challenges of recognizing that DEI made me look a little better than him…. My husband can’t go to his boss and go, ‘I need an ally. I need sponsorship to get my raise.’ I would automatically be given it. There are these challenges, these hard conversations that we have to have….” – Kellyn Gorman + Kellyn left companies making more money than her husband was at times because it might have looked better to give raises or equity to a woman. She reminds us it is important to push to have uncomfortable conversations about these types of situations (even if no one wants to have them). * Based on what we have discussed so far, is Kellyn discounting herself in this scenario? + No. + "The truth was I would be negotiating for myself, and then I would have a boss come in going, “women are bad at negotiating for themselves. I need to back Kellyn up.’ I was a win-win every time.” – Kellyn Gorman + Kellyn shares the story of when HR at a specific company challenged her salary. - “And I hadn’t thought about this beforehand. It just popped out of my head. I said, ‘I feel that if I didn’t stick to my guns, I’d be letting down women in tech everywhere. Best response I could have ever said! Nobody asked about my salary again…. At the same time, my upcoming boss came back and said, ‘Kellyn earned that salary. She should be getting that salary, and no one should be asking her about that salary.’ He was there to be my ally.” – Kellyn Gorman, in response to HR questioning her salary and an example of her boss as an ally + Kellyn shares a different scenario related to promotions when her spouse was given a new title at a higher job level but she was not. She had been doing the job for 1.5 years but was not given a promotion despite being promised it. - A mentor suggested Kellyn hold her boss accountable for this, and Kellyn told her boss she earned it and needed to see the promotion within a year’s time. She got it, and her boss was an ally. Kellyn and her spouse were then back to a level playing field. + Stock awards are a little bit different according to Kellyn. - “It happened most of the time with nobody in the room, and it just looked cooler to give it to the girl. That’s when the inequality came out. If you didn’t have those DEI programs though, I think it would have been the opposite way…. That’s my partner down there and my equal, and he’s actually been in tech longer than me. If I had won it one year and then he won it the next, that would have been one thing. But after 5 years that they kept giving it to me… nope. I felt that was unfair.” – Kellyn Gorman, on stock grants - John says in the case of stock grants even our advocates may not been in the room when awards are discussed and given. - “They’re not small awards. But you recognize the pattern, and again…AuDHD…we see patterns. You saw who was being awarded what and you recognized it was a great achievement of understanding DEI, but there’s also that backlash of DEI. If you don’t have honest conversations with yourself saying, ‘did I award this because DEI looks cool? Or did I award this because I have somebody who deserved this?’ That’s extremely important to still follow through and keep yourself accountable.” – Kellyn Gorman
26:44 – Being the Messenger and Getting Support* We heard earlier that Kellyn lost the fear of putting herself into scenarios no one ever wanted. Did she also lose the fear of uncomfortable conversations at some point? Was it a progression like the improvement in her public speaking? + Kellyn says this is part of her personality. Her mother used to say, “Kellyn tells me things I don’t want to know.” + “Even those in the Microsoft community are aware that I’m brought into difficult conversations. I am the messenger…. I was the messenger in the Oracle community that they didn’t want. In the Microsoft community I’m the one people bring in…. I am the equalizer. It’s weird.” – Kellyn Gorman + John points out an element of self-awareness in Kellyn. She knows when she needs to care for herself and cannot be the advocate all the time. - “Sometimes the Kevlar needs to be repaired.” – John White - Having hard conversations and facing anxiety / fear is a skill. Those people who are surer of themselves and have confidence (like what Kellyn described as being willing to figure things out) are better suited to step into the line of fire and advocate for others. + Kellyn says she has received tremendous community support in the role of equalizer / warrior. + Kellyn also receives support from her mentees, often becoming close friends with them. Kellyn gets up early On Thursdays to mentor someone in another country, for example. - “Those people are also often my roommates at different events. We’re friends as well.” – Kellyn Gorman, on support from her mentees + Kellyn remembers forming “pods” with other women in the Oracle community across the country because there were so few of them. They could communicate and share with each other. - “This was a bad day. I just need somebody to hear me. Those are important friendships to have. Those are important support structures to have. And I think that’s what women in tech more than anything will have. So, when I say that I need support…I have that. I have a lot of friends. I have a lot of allies. I have a lot of support people. And that gives me strength. I’m also naturally kind of a loaner too.” – Kellyn Gorman - When Kellyn is overstimulated by too much noise, she can put on her Apple AirPods to block out all noise. When she needs time to recharge, most people know it. - While attending events, Kellyn takes time for self-care. She might need to do that instead of attending an evening event. - “I have no guilt about taking care of myself and doing what I need, and when other people need me, I make sure I have those reserves that I can be there. I don’t think there’s ever been a time where I haven’t been able to give of myself what other people need because I am very big about making sure I do the self-care that I need, that I have the reserves that I need, and do step back. I would not have signed on to go back into the Oracle community if I didn’t feel that I was capable of it and it was going to disturb my peace.” – Kellyn Gorman * By thinking through situations from someone else’s perspective, Kellyn also has to help her friends set boundaries to care for themselves. + “I was taught very on to think with my head, feel with my heart, say what I mean…don’t get any of them confused. Keep them compartmentalized, especially when you’re trying to make decisions…. If you’re angry at somebody there’s a reason you’re angry. Really think it through and figure out why you feel what you feel. I think that’s extremely essential. Don’t get them all meshed up together and say things that really aren’t the reason for that. You have to take some time and figure it out. I’m not one to say something that I don’t mean. It just doesn’t happen with me. I will step back and work through things. I have to. But it has served me well so far.” – Kellyn Gorman + Kellyn thinks about what she wants to achieve, what the other person wants to achieve, and how they can move forward together. This strategy has worked very well over the years. * Parting thoughts + Kellyn says it’s been incredible to fall into a technologist role accidentally. Today, these kinds of opportunities are rare. - We have people coming out of school with Data Science degrees who cannot get data analyst roles. - Kellyn was doing desktop support, and someone suggested they make her a DBA. She would later work for Oracle and Microsoft. - The opportunities Kellyn has received are thanks to support and allyship from others. - “Even though I give myself credit for self-care and working hard and doing all these things, there’s been people behind me the entire way. I could not have done it by myself. It absolutely takes a village, and I try to give that to other people. I want other people to have the things that I have had. I think that’s essential for us to continue technology in a path that’s healthy.” – Kellyn Gorman - Kellyn wants to make sure we use AI the right way. She sees entry-level technologists and wonders how they will gain the level of experience that she has. - Kellyn has to address the University of Washington in support of tech careers, and sometimes she isn’t sure what her approach will be or the recommendations she will make to those looking to get into the field at this moment in time. + If you want to follow up on this conversation with Kellyn, check out: - Kellyn’s Blog – DBAKevlar - Contact Kellyn on LinkedIn
Mentioned in the Outro* Special thanks to former guest David Klee for recommending we have Kellyn on the show! * Nominate a woman in technology that you know needs to have her story told to be a guest on our show by sending us an e-mail – nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com. If you nominate someone who is a guest on the show, we will send you Nerd Journey stickers as a thank you for supporting women in technology. * Listen to the following recommended episodes for more perspectives from women in tech: + Caitlyn Bryan was mistaken for an assistant but was the salesperson supporting a customer - Episode 111 – A Career in Technical Sales with Caitlyn Bryan Part 1/2 + Kate Emshoff shares the challenges of remote job interviews for women and some tips for the career minded mothers out there. - Episode 117 – Bold Moves and Blind Spots with Kate Emshoff (1/2) - Episode 118 – The Career-Minded, Curious Mother with Kate Emshoff (2/2) + Dr. Sirisha Kuchimanchi talks about STEM careers and how we can encourage young ladies to go into these fields. It has to start early. - Episode 245 – Technical Careers and Championing Women in STEM with Dr. Sirisha Kuchimanchi (1/3) + Amy Arnold speaks about mentoring other women in network engineering and mentions the Women in Cybersecurity community. - Episode 281 – Packets Don’t Lie: Quality of Service for Technical Exploration in Network Engineering with Amy Arnold (1/2) + Ashley Connell speaks about the gender imbalances within the Spiceworks community and some of the discomfort it caused. She also talks about supporting women returning to the workforce through her business, The Prowess Project. - Episode 96 – Sponsorship, Dreams, and the Path to Entrepreneurship with Ashley Connell - Episode 97 – Building Your Own Business From Idea to Operations with Ashley Connell * We don’t always know the impact our efforts or the example we set will make on others just as Kellyn learned when she returned to the Oracle community. + Tom Hollingsworth had a great quote about burnout happening when you think no one else cares. Check out Episode 127 – Countdown to Burnout with Tom Hollingsworth (3/3). * We hope you find a technical community that can support you and all other members.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
How do we determine if a manager is the right fit based on our personality, values, and the way our brain works? Kellyn Gorman diligently investigates a potential manager before taking a job. As someone with autism and ADHD, having a supportive boss is critical to her success.
This week in episode 321 we’ll explore how Kellyn got into both the Oracle and Microsoft communities and the reasons she is adamant about developing public proof of work (like blogs and public-facing presentations) that showcases mistakes on the path to learning.
Listen closely to follow Kellyn’s transition from Oracle community group participant to leader, from public speaking novice to keynote presenter, and the differences she observed when participating in the Microsoft community.
Original Recording Date: 02-21-2025
Kellyn Gorman is a database professional who has worked in the technology space for 25 years better known as DBAKevlar. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Kellyn, check out Episode 320.
Topics – Interviewing and Qualifying Managers, The Importance of Proof of Work, A Tale of Two Technical Communities3:00 – Interviewing and Qualifying Managers* Kellyn had mentioned not wanting to spend time on things which are not valuable, but she has developed a way to determine if sources of information are valuable over the course of her experience. In some cases, she is creating valuable resources that do not yet exist for the benefit of others. Kellyn has also learned how to determine if a manager will be valuable to her and fit in with the way she likes to work. How can listeners ask the right questions to determine if a manager is the right fit for the way they like to work? + Kellyn says often times when we interview, getting the job is the main focus, which is understandable. If it is not the right job, it can put you in a very bad situation. + With Kellyn being AuDHD, having a good boss is essential for her to be successful. + Many times, when Kellyn is being interviewed, the people who are interviewing her have read her blogs, the books she has written, or have seen her speak. - “They know me. It’s very normal for them to go, ‘I don’t have to give you a technical interview. I already know what you know.’ Ok, well then I get to ask questions.” – Kellyn Gorman + In a job interview situation, Kellyn likes to ask questions about how a manager assigns work and the regularity of updates they need (i.e. regular check-ins vs. clear communication of the deadline and nothing more). She does not work well with micromanagers and needs autonomy and trust from her manager. - “Go ahead and run the race. I don’t need to know how. That’s important to me. I am a professional. I am going to do the best job and really take care of that company and be extremely loyal. I need them to trust me to do that.” – Kellyn Gorman + When Kellyn worked for Microsoft, a mentor encouraged her to take the Clifton Assessment, and it has been extremely valuable. - Kellyn says one’s assessment can change over time and will re-take it now and then. The assessment tells someone what you will be like as an employee (skillset, potential, weaknesses). - Kellyn likes to give the assessment results to her boss as “an employee manual.” Not all of them, however, take the time to read it. - “The ones that read through that…I know I’ve got a good chance of having a good boss. If they just throw it aside…they don’t even take the time to read it…may have problems. They’re not even curious enough about me to read that assessment. And it’s not a long one. The top-level assessment is like 5 pages.” – Kellyn Gorman - Kellyn’s Clifton Assessment says she is a strategic thinker, a go getter, and that she does not need a lot of management. People can tell her what they need, and she can figure it out from there. - Kellyn is looking for a manager who is flexible and trusts her to go and do her job. They need to understand the deep expertise she brings to the table (Oracle expertise, for example). Kellyn wants to make sure a manager understands the challenges of being in an older technology space but operating across a broad set of communities. - “I have what’s called…a Lego brain. If you want to know how your technology fits into every other technology, I can tell you. You want to build out a solution and market it to any different provider no matter if it’s Google or Microsoft? I can architect it for you…. That’s all I do for one company right now. I build them solutions. I architect them, and they take them and market them. And it’s awesome, but I needed a boss that understood that…. I need Kellyn’s Lego brain for this.” – Kellyn Gorman - A good manager for Kellyn won’t try to control or stifle her talents but will enable her to leverage them to build the solutions she delivers to the company. * How does Kellyn prioritize what to address about the way she likes to work during the interview process and what is ok to save for after she gets hired? + Kellyn addresses a lot during the interview process, and she interviews for long periods of time. + Kellyn spoke to her current manager for a period of 4 months before she was hired. It was a similar time period when she went to work for both Microsoft and Silk. + Speaking with other individuals inside a company who can answer specific questions is very important to Kellyn as part of the overall process of seeking a new job. Our contacts are extremely important. - Kellyn tells the story of taking a role at Oracle and making good decisions with the help received from Mary Melgaard in navigating the job offer process. - When Kellyn went to Microsoft, she contacted Bruno Borges for help. - When seeking a job with Silk, it was Tom O’Neal and Chris Buckle who helped Kellyn navigate the process. - Upon coming to Redgate, Kellyn had help from Louise Domeisen. + “I want to feel secure. I need that secure feeling that I’m making strong choices and understanding.” – Kellyn Gorman + Kellyn has also negotiated other opportunities outside her job responsibilities with potential managers. That negotiation process / those types of conversations can give you insight into what someone will be like as a manager.
11:18 – The Importance of Proof of Work* John highlights Kellyn’s emphasis on having proof of work that people can learn from and even discover her by as well as a strong professional network. + Kellyn advises every mentee she has to blog and do public speaking. + “I am out there. People already know what I know, and it’s a way for people to comprehend and to get a jump in. I have not had to go look for a job in over a decade. We’re talking a good 15 years. People have come to find me and said, ‘we want you….’ It’s really important to be out there. Be present. Just be the best that you can be and show what you can do…. People will come find you, and they will offer you jobs.” – Kellyn Gorman - Kellyn’s job at Redgate as an Oracle Advocate began with an ask that she work for them as an engineer 10 hours per week. The Redgate advocacy team would later decide they wanted Kellyn to join them but initially did not realize she was already working for Redgate part time. They offered her the Oracle Advocate role without needing to interview for it. - When Kellyn went to join Silk, she had reached out to Silk and 2 other companies stating her readiness to leave Microsoft and requested they create a role for her. Silk provided exactly what she asked for (a role that would put her skills to work). - Kellyn also tells the story of someone asking her to take their role at Delphix. * John references themes of learning in public and documenting your thought process (as a beginner or otherwise). We have discussed these with previous guests, aligning with advice from the book Show Your Work by Austin Kleon. + Documenting our successes and failures makes our writing more approachable to those who are beginners or less knowledgeable in an area. + John asks Kellyn to contrast how this strategy can help those who are entry level or early career in a specific area compared to those who may be more experienced or subject matter experts. - Kellyn has been blogging on DBAKevlar since 2008 and regularly models documenting her mistakes for people to see. Kellyn calls out one mistake she documented related to an Oracle upgrade. - Publishing our mistakes showcases our humanity to others. We make mistakes just like everyone one else. Kellyn uses the example of her son thinking she was perfect and helping him understand she makes plenty of mistakes. - Kellyn used to see posts from people in the industry detailing the incredible things they were doing. As a result, she thought those people never made mistakes. Kellyn stresses the importance of showing when we mess up and how we cover from it. - Kellyn’s husband was her first mentor and worked with her when she was a junior DBA (database administrator). Kellyn’s husband shared a story with her about a mistake he made related to removing a large database index. Her husband’s boss didn’t get upset but rather was focused on moving forward after the mistake. - “And that was it…. It happened. Let’s take care of it. And when you hear that from somebody as prolific as my husband was in my view at that time, you start to understand it’s important to share those mistakes. It’s important to talk about your journey.” – Kellyn Gorman - If you read Kellyn’s blog, she started off as a DBA learning things the hard way. While Kellyn was documenting things for herself, she also thought others might find her writings interesting if they were published in a blog. From there, Kellyn continued to grow and do more. - “This is my path in tech. This is what I’m doing. If you find it interesting, go ahead and read it. If you don’t, I’m alright with that too. It’s alright. I may need this next week when I forget what I did in 10g, so we’re good.” – Kellyn Gorman, on blogging + John says Kellyn is demonstrating that she does good work while documenting the outcome as well as the process. Part of Kellyn’s personality is a desire to make others better and to help the community. - Kellyn says this is part of the reason she adores the Microsoft community. - “I ended up blogging a lot more on the tech community for Microsoft than I did on DBA Kevlar for…recent years.” – Kellyn Gorman, on how her blogging changed after she went to Microsoft - Kellyn had been blogging weekly on her own site for years but wasn’t able to keep up the same pace after joining Microsoft. After Kellyn left Microsoft, she added the content to DBA Kevlar so it would be retained. - Kellyn emphasizes the importance of keeping track of the public-facing content we’ve created over time so people know it exists. * In mentoring conversations with others about blogging or speaking, what does Kellyn think is the biggest hurdle people have to overcome to actually start? + “They think they don’t have anything important to say, and I will remind them that some of my most popular blogs are things that I thought was stupid. Nobody’s going to read this. Nobody’s going to think it’s good. And those are the most popular blogs. I…documented using a Windows Oracle Enterprise Manager and monitoring HP UX targets. I thought, ‘nobody is going to read this. This is only there for me because I’m going to have to support this customer long term….’ That thing gets hit constantly, every single day…. It’s not the things you think will be popular. It’s not the things that everybody else is doing. It’s the stuff that nobody else knows. So just start writing and see what happens. Don’t overthink it.” – Kellyn Gorman, on blogging + Kellyn documented building a VM image of a Raspberry Pi to use for STEM classes. People loved it and were downloading it for STEM education. + John says we don’t know the purpose for which others will use our problem solving. If we document something for public consumption, people will use it in ways we just can’t know. + Kellyn says as people in your community retire, they may take down their blogs. It’s a consideration point. - She has some of the only deep command line interface content for Oracle Enterprise Manager, for example, and is committed to preserving it for others. - “I can’t ever take that down because if I do, it’s gone. It’s gone forever.” – Kellyn Gorman, on technical knowledge that can be lost when subject matter experts / community contributors
21:11 – A Tale of Two Technical Communities* Kellyn does public speaking, has written blogs and books, and has been part of technical communities. What was the order in which Kellyn started doing these things? What came first? + Kellyn had attended RMOUG (Rocky Mountain Oracle Users Group). It was the largest regional user group in the country and was closed to where Kellyn lived. + “I wanted to start speaking, and the reason that I wanted to start public speaking was I found that my ADHD made it very difficult for me when I was in a public space. People would ask me questions, and I absolutely had the answers. But I would lose access to my brain, and I wouldn’t be able to come up with it at that moment…. Even if I knew the information, it wasn’t accessible for me…. I remember my first talk when I went to RMOUG. I went and did the talk, and I was going to do it on temporary table spaces with parallel processing…. The door closed, and my talk went out the door with it…just was gone…. It was horrible. It was the worst talk ever, but it got better. Again…didn’t give up…be persistent…continue to talk. And now I can talk on anything. I’ve got it down.” – Kellyn Gorman - Kellyn would encourage people with questions to talk to her 1-1 at a later time to hide the fact that it was very difficult to come up with answers in the moment. - In that first presentation for RMOUG, Kellyn spoke for about 35 minutes trying to go through her slides, but it was a struggle. + Kellyn is doing a number of keynote presentations as the Oracle Analytics and Data Summit 2025, Kscope, Scenic City Summit, and SQL Saturday Oregon. - Kellyn loves doing keynote presentations on topics that interest her, but it took her beginning the public speaking journey in 2011 to get where she is now in 2025 (14 years). + Kellyn went from attending the Rocky Mountain Oracle User Group (RMOUG) to speaking at events. At one point she approached the board members of RMOUG and expressed her interest in volunteering to give back to the community. - Other board members of RMOUG immediately suggested Kellyn run for a term as board member, and she did. + Once Kellyn was a member of the RMOUG board, she started running the RMOUG Training Days conference. At the time, there were around 1000 attendees. - Kellyn recently attended RMOUG Training Days and reports there were only 80 attendees. - “It’s heartbreaking to see where the Oracle community is now. Because of so much content that is out there, it’s hard to get people to go in person to events like this. There’s cloud events. There’s everything. It’s very challenging.” – Kellyn Gorman + In 2011 Kellyn was made an Oracle ACE. This is a community recognized award. One year later, Kellyn was named an Oracle ACE Director (the highest award from Oracle). + In 2014 Kellyn won Women of Tech of the Year for the state of Colorado. + Also in 2014, Kellyn and her future husband Tim Gorman were doing keynotes across the world. Being a part of the same community ended up eventually bringing the two of them together. + Kellyn stayed in the Oracle community through 2018 / 2019. + In 2012, Kellyn attended her first SQL Saturday, which is focused on Microsoft technologies. - Kellyn immediately wanted to know how this community was able to get so many women attendees (40% were women at SQL Saturday compared to 7% at Oracle community events). - A couple of the speakers at the SQL Saturday event explained the DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) and Women in Tech initiatives that Microsoft had. - “It made total sense to me. It was what I was trying to bring over to the Oracle side. They just weren’t ready. They just weren’t ready on the Oracle side. And I was just utterly amazed. So, I started going to SQL Saturdays.” – Kellyn Gorman, on discovering the Microsoft community - Kellyn worked with SQL Server technologies and had built some expertise in that area. + In 2016, Kellyn attended her first PASS Data Community Summit. - “I just loved the energy. I loved the inclusivity…everything that they were doing. I just was so impressed…. This is the way user communities are supposed to be. It’s all about you do you and I’m alright with what you do. It was just incredible. That was pretty much my love affair starting with the Microsoft community….” – Kellyn Gorman, on her love for the Microsoft community
Mentioned in the Outro* Special thanks to former guest David Klee for recommending we have Kellyn on the show! * Nick had not heard of the Clifton Assessment before speaking to Kellyn. It’s a great idea to do something like this to help identify strengths that perhaps others do not point out to you. Knowing our strengths can be leveraged when we interview for jobs (part of the career narrative we need to tell in interviews). * Kellyn asked people inside the companies she was targeting for her next role for help during the job seeking and interview process. She found a harbor pilot just like we discussed in Episode 317 – Own Your Job Search: Be the Captain, Find a Harbor Pilot. * Kellyn’s attitude toward blogging is much like that of Duncan Epping as discussed in Episode 304 – Next Level: Shifting Specialties and Broadening Your Outcome Goal with Duncan Epping (2/2). The purpose is documenting a learning journey that showcases mistakes. * It’s ok to be part of multiple technical communities. It doesn’t have to be just one! Kellyn has been part of the Oracle and the Microsoft communities.
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What if your strategy at work was to take on the problems no one else will? For Kellyn Gorman, this is a strategy that suits the way she works and learns best. Kellyn is a multi-platform database professional with 25 years of experience in our industry, and she’s also known as DBAKevlar.
This week in episode 320 you’ll hear what it was like to grow up in a perfectionist home as a child with autism and ADHD, the health challenge that forced Kellyn to start over professionally after losing 9 years of memories, and how she went from working at a shoe store to becoming a database administrator. We talk through ways to mitigate perfectionist tendencies by accepting work quality that’s good enough, being kind to yourself, and time calibration.
Original Recording Date: 02-21-2025
Topics – Meet Kellyn Gorman, A Perfectionist Environment, Hitting a Roadblock, Pursuing Unexplored Areas to Remove Barriers, Reaching Good Enough by Tuning for Time, Strengths and Weaknesses in Neurodiversity, No Fear in Asking for Help or Giving Help to Others2:17 – Meet Kellyn Gorman* Kellyn Gorman is a database professional who has worked in the technology space for 25 years. Kellyn’s focus has been heavily on Oracle, but she also has experience with SQL Server, MySQL, Sybase, PostgreSQL, and much more. To sum it up, Kellyn excels in multi-platform database administration. + Should we have written our questions for this episode as database queries?
3:25 – A Perfectionist Environment* Kellyn is the oldest of 3 children and has perfectionist parents. * Kellyn is autistic and has ADHD. This is often called AuDHD. See Kellyn’s blog post on the strengths of ADHD/AuDHD. + Listen to some of the challenges from Kellyn’s childhood. + “So, this perfectionism was always placed upon me to do so much more because I was an intelligent child. But you would get me into most school environments that have a lot of structure…and my brain was like 25 McDonald’s drive-throughs all taking orders at the same time…. And that can perpetuate this idea that you are really failure instead of innovative and kind of doing things very differently than what is that structured expectation of what is fitting inside the box. I did not fit inside the box.” – Kellyn Gorman + Kellyn started to get the feeling of not living up to expectations. + Kellyn speaks to having an extreme awareness and being able to recognize patterns. She saw the need to structure her own box, which made a huge difference in what being a perfectionist meant. + At around age 15, Kellyn told her parents she planned to move far away (and she eventually did to escape what was expected of her). + Kellyn’s mother had specific plans and ideas for what success looked like for Kellyn as well as her younger sister. + “You comprehend that idea of what your parents may have and their ideas for you and what they think is successful is very different than what you might have decided. By the time I hit about 21 / 22, I was on my own idea and learning how to be good to myself, learning how to do things differently.” – Kellyn Gorman, on the mismatch between her parents’ definition of success and her own definition of it
7:32 – Hitting a Roadblock* “I ended up coming to I guess you’d say a complete roadblock in life because that perfectionism was constantly weighing on me even though I was very aware that it wasn’t the right thing for me. I ended up having a medical crisis where I ended up having 5 strokes between 21 and 26. I had to re-learn how to do everything…. I lost nine years of memories. I lost 50% of my visual field. I had to re-learn how to balance a checkbook, how to drive…it was huge.” – Kellyn Gorman + Kellyn mentioned she was lucky to have so many others around her for support during this time. * Circuit City opened up in Kellyn’s town, and they were looking for people to work in the computer department. + Two of the guys working with Kellyn at a shoe store suggested Circuit City hire her. They had nicknamed Kellyn “Kevlar” because they thought she was bullet proof. + At the time Circuit City hired her, Kellyn had never worked on a computer (zero experience). She still had a small speech impediment from her strokes then but performed well even on her first day in the role. + “And that was my journey into tech. They found out I had a knack for software. I had learned how to fix computers. As my brain healed, this was all coming about.” – Kellyn Gorman * Kellyn’s husband was doing desktop support at the time and suggested she give it a try as a next step and kept progressing from there. * “What you find out is that a lot of people talk about what they’re going to do. Not many people do…. I remember working in the shoe store and not being able to arrange shoes in size order…. It took me 3 days to do that when I first started. When you come from that place, everything else seems easier. You’re not so overcome by the idea of perfectionism…. It’s just it’s a new challenge and you’re going to take it on, and you’re not scared…you just do. And so, I would take on the things that nobody else would touch.” – Kellyn Gorman * Kellyn worked with 14 other people (all men), all of which wanted nothing to do with database software like Sybase or Oracle. Kellyn figured out how to do it. * Kellyn tells the story of people from Oracle wanting to know how she was running more than one 16-bit Oracle application on a Windows 95 computer. Those folks later told the company CIO that he needed to make Kellyn a DBA (database administrator) and encouraged sending her to certification training. * Kellyn’s first official DBA role was at Duke Energy. She inherited a massive SQL Server cluster that no one else wanted to touch and had no experience working with it at the time. Kellyn had to learn about it without Microsoft’s help, but she figured it out. * “So, I just kept doing that wherever I went because I found that people remembered your successes. They didn’t remember your failures…. The whole idea that you were Kevlar or you were bullet proof or that you were perfect had more to do with that you were doing and just did one more time past the failure…fall down 7 times, get up 8 kind of thing…. You could fail all you want as long as you were trying.” – Kellyn Gorman
12:04 – Pursuing Unexplored Areas to Remove Barriers* Did Kellyn’s learning process as she recovered become something she learned to apply to anything? + Kellyn thinks yes and says she was no longer afraid. + What we see on television about amnesia is not like what it really is. Kellyn remembers her brain “unfogging” around 5 months after her last stroke. Doctors realized after extensive testing she was missing 9 years of memories. + All of Kellyn’s adult memories, including her college education, were gone. She could not perform her duties as an accountant and needed to start completely over. + “My mindset was this is where we’re at. Wipe off the dirt. Pick yourself up. Start moving…. I just stopped being afraid of falling on my face because I was already down there.” – Kellyn Gorman + Kellyn has never been afraid of making progress in a new area little by little as a result of everything that happened. She’s never been afraid of taking on difficult tasks (which might be an ADHD thing). + “I think that I figured out what was the trick of me getting from the starting line to the finish line and continued to kind of build on that and doing that every time when I was going somewhere and perfecting it…. It’s served me very well.” – Kellyn Gorman + This reminds John of a pattern he’s seen in his own life and in the lives of others called Smart Kid Syndrome. When people start to say you’re talented in certain areas, one might get focused on being perceived as being really good at certain things and shy away from things that are difficult or that are new. Because of Kellyn’s situation and the loss of memories, she didn’t have any choice but to take a beginner’s mindset and a growth mindset. + “You don’t miss what you don’t remember…. And it may be a little bit ADHD again in me that they joke about out of sight, out of mind with us. For me, it’s very much like that. I don’t remember those 9 years, so I don’t really miss them.” – Kellyn Gorman + Kellyn says she has some memories of memories and reinforces that amnesia is not the way it is portrayed on television. Listen to her describe what it was like. + Part of what motivated Kellyn to pursue the areas others didn’t want to touch was that it allowed her to learn things in her own way without any barriers. Kellyn sees herself doing this even today for 2 reasons: - When other people know a great deal already, Kellyn doesn’t feel she can contribute as much. - In these areas, Kellyn can learn at her own pace and do things the way she wants to do them without being bothered. + Through experience, Kellyn knows the ways of working that suit her best. She doesn’t do well being micromanaged, for example. - “…I know that I’ll be able to be my best me there, that I’ll be able to do things, and no one will be interested in any part of it…not until I’ve turned it into something really, really big and special. Then everybody gravitates to it.” – Kellyn Gorman - Kellyn is also preparing herself to do something / build something special and then lose it. She cites this as the biggest hurdle for which she has to prepare. * Nick thinks focusing on the doing and the areas that other people aren’t interested in or don’t care about removes the shame of messing up. + Kellyn says the hard things come easy to her. It’s the silly details she ends up missing. + Kellyn tells the story of a conversation with her son when he was a teenager. He said something about Kellyn being perfect and never messing up. + “I always mess up. I don’t give up.” – Kellyn Gorman, speaking to her son + Kellyn realized her kids only saw the end product, and most people see her that way too. + “I didn’t realize that what people see, even though I talk about the stupid things I’ve done and talk about the challenges that I’ve had, nobody seems to remember that. All they seem to remember is ‘you wrote all these books and you’re doing this, and you designed these systems, and you did Oracle on Azure….’ I don’t think we see ourselves like other people see us. I think we’re much harder on ourselves.” – Kellyn Gorman * John says people see the output and don’t see the process, which may be a cognitive bias in humans. We can’t always control the output or the outcome but often want to judge based on these. We can control the process. Maybe when we say we’re trying to control perfectionism what we’re really talking about is an obsession with progress and not giving up. + Kelly says it’s also about being satisfied with your output. - She recalls walking away from situations that didn’t go as planned but knew she tried her best. In these situations, Kellyn is kind to herself. - “If I didn’t do the best that I could have, that’s probably when I’m going to be more persistent and say, ‘you need to try again.’ But there have been situations where I’ve done that, where I’ve just said, ‘you did the best that you could. The output isn’t what you hoped, and you’re going to have to let this one go….’” – Kellyn Gorman - Kellyn has seen people she’s mentored and many she admires be very hard on themselves in certain situations despite doing the best they could in the situation. - “That’s when perfectionism I think really comes back and bites a person. It really hurts them and harms them…when they don’t understand, ‘you do not control the entirety of this world. You can only control yourself.’” – Kellyn Gorman + John thinks when Kellyn is kind to herself or critical of herself, it’s about the process and not about the outcome. For those who are not kind to themselves, the thing they can control and improve is their process. - Preparation and interaction with other people are part of process, but we don’t control everything, including how much time we had to do something.
23:05 – Reaching Good Enough by Tuning for Time* How do we start to design our processes to accept a quality of output that is good enough? Or does perfectionism force us to think our work must be of the utmost quality regardless of other constraints? + Kellyn likes to break things into bite size pieces and determines the level of quality she can produce based on the time she has for that piece. If there is more time, she can revisit and increase the level of quality. + Kellyn shares a story of getting asked to do a presentation at a conference the evening before the presentation was to take place. - Kellyn wrote the abstract and then worked on the slides that evening for 2 hours and was able to say they were good enough. - The next morning Kellyn worked on the slides again to the point where she was totally satisfied with the quality.“But if I didn’t have that time because I was not awake…I would have let them go. I would have been satisfied either way, but I was saying, ‘if I have more time, I will allocate to that. But I would have been happy either way because understanding there were time constraints…this was a last-minute request from somebody. I’m going to knock it out of the park no matter what because I know the topic, but my slides may not be of the pristine level that I like. So that’s kind of how I approach it.” – Kellyn Gorman - Kellyn says in this case she did a great job with the presentation and was very happy with it. She focused her topic to fill a gap in content that wasn’t discussed at the event. * Kellyn’s story made Nick think that in any given situation there are layers in which we might need to make good enough. Kellyn knew the topic well. That part was of the upmost quality. It was the slides that might have turned out to be good enough based on time constraints. This mirrors decisions Nick has to make when producing the podcast. + Kellyn says this comes down to priority also. + “What are the things that must be done? What are the things that could be done, and if I have time I’ll allocate more? What are the things that just don’t matter? …I am very much about time management for thigns that are valuable.” – Kellyn Gorman + Kellyn does not like having her time wasted and likes to allocate time to only things that are useful or valuable. * How did Kellyn learn to delineate efficient uses of time to help herself prioritize? + Kellyn feels she’s always been this way. + When she works on optimizing database environments, nothing is off the table – the application, the database, the network, or the hardware. + “There are reports that you can pull from Oracle that tell you all about what’s using CPU, what’s using I/O, what’s using memory…. I’m always looking at elapsed time…because you tune for time, or you’re wasting time. It’s all about time. What is consuming the time? That to me is efficiency. I think that’s extremely important when you look at all aspects of life. What can I do that is efficient use of time that can provide valuable output, and if it doesn’t provide valuable output, it is a waste of time…. I have to have proof that shows what I allocate time to makes sense.” – Kellyn Gorman - Kellyn thinks this is part of AuDHD. People who are autistic understand social cues well but do not accept social cues that don’t make logical sense. The autistic brain also has an insane sense of justice, and these qualities apply to all areas of life. - “If it doesn’t make logical sense…if we cannot put order to it, we’re not going to be able to be supportive of it…. Because I see patterns and I see output, I should be able to track it and say, ‘this is an efficient use of my time. There will be productive output of this at the end, and yes, I will do it this way.’” – Kellyn Gorman, on the AuDHD brain - Kellyn shares a scenario of co-workers pointing at something specific causing a performance problem in a database environment, but they had no data to back up their claim. + John says this sounds like following the scientific method. When we as human beings have a hypothesis, there’s a cognitive bias toward searching for anything that supports what we think might be true. Maybe fighting this bias is a skill? - Kellyn does a pretty good job at fighting the bias. - “I would not be doing my job if I didn’t request that we have some data behind this before I spend time on it.” – Kellyn Gorman, as a response to colleagues without data backed assumptions of what might be causing a problem - John suggests this is coaching and trying to help people get better at their jobs, encouraging them to gather data on their hypotheses. - Listen to the story Kellyn shares of being in a meeting where someone just wanted her to agree with them without data.
32:22 – Strengths and Weaknesses in Neurodiversity* John highlights Kellyn’s attribution of some of these things to AuDHD. He shares being diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and wishes it had been earlier. + John loved spending time on things that were interesting and hated spending time on things he perceived to be unimportant, a waste of time, or just not interesting…regardless of whether the task or tasks would help him make progress on a project. + John says he does not feel it is an aspect of his ADHD to hate wasting time. + Kellyn says when she is trying to address something tedious, the activity level in her temporal lobe decreases, making it harder to focus. The way Kellyn would compensate for this was to pair up with someone neurotypical. + “I could handle this monstrous 95% workload, but he’d come in the last 5% and clean it all up. And then he could go back in the corner and code like he loved to. That’s how I work best…. Little tiny things, tedious little silly things could get away from me. Understanding that and accepting that and accepting those weak points but understanding that I had these massive amount of strengths…this is alright. These weaknesses are alright. How do I find people who can help me to make sure they don’t become an issue? And that’s how I address my ADHD as an adult.” – Kellyn Gorman, on finding people to support her weaknesses + John mentions compensating behaviors like staying organized also help him. + Kellyn likes to switch between tasks constantly to keep activity up in her temporal lobe so nothing becomes boring. - Kellyn asks managers to load up her task list and clearly communicate the deadline for different items. Then she can start working through the tasks in her own way (and finishing all of them). - “It’s the way that I work. Because I know that way it can’t become tedious if I’m constantly task switching and moving about different things. It works wonderful for me. It’s not for everyone, but it does work with my ADHD.” – Kellyn Gorman - John has a little bit more hyperfocus, and he mentions there is one label of ADHD that applies to many executive functioning issues.
36:08 – No Fear in Asking for Help or Giving Help to Others* John asks about being self-taught. When we’re teaching ourselves something and just starting, it can seem overwhelming with so much material to learn. Did Kellyn combat perfectionism when learning new things through time calibration or using some other tool? + Kellyn says it’s partly that she’s not afraid to ask for help. Going back to that first SQL Server she inherited (which we referenced earlier), the database team was not on speaking terms with the application and user support team. + “So, for 3 weeks, I banged my head against a wall trying to figure out SQL Server, trying to figure out how to do this; and I was incredibly overwhelmed. I finally said, ‘that’s it. I’m not doing this. This is not a smart idea.’ So, I walked into the manager of that entire team (development as well as users), and I said, ‘so I hear that the DBA team and the…team are not on speaking terms…. I’d like to change that right now, right here.’ I was a brand-new DBA. I had nothing to lose…. I could not have done that job without them….learning from the application developers, learning from the people who used this application every day, understanding the data…. I had to go them, show weakness…and I learned a lot. They knew I was willing to put in the time to understand and learn SQL Server.” – Kellyn Gorman - This database contained all pipeline data for the western US for Duke Energy. Kellyn had never worked on SQL, never managed databases, and was suddenly responsible for managing all of the hourly and daily data. - To learn SQL Server scoured documentation. She also learned how to calculate lock escalation for database tables (which impressed Microsoft). * Kellyn is giving back to the people on her team now, recommending O’Reilly books by specific trustworthy authors. + Kellyn has followed these authors and their content for years. She knows whether what they write is valuable, and this is a critical skill in a world where some of the content out there is written by people who don’t truly understand the subject matter. + Kellyn shares a discussion she had with someone else in the Oracle community about being part of the last generation that will understand Oracle. - Things in the cloud are black boxes, and no one is talking about the internals (architecture, diagrams, etc.). - “For my folks that I’m working with right now teaching them Oracle I have written in 4 months 250 pages, and I told them I’m going to turn it into a book. And I’m going to call it ‘All the Documentation Oracle Forgot to Write….’ This is why they can’t get the answers. There are no answers out there. It’s really interesting that we are saying everything is a black box. Nobody needs to know how it works. And the truth is if you don’t understand how it works, it’s really difficult to develop for it. It’s really difficult to troubleshoot it…. It’s really challenging as folks are trying to learn, trying to become more, and some of the old ways…it always returns to us as being the most valuable…. The way we taught ourselves, we had to really work with it…. We were building out real application clusters manually across networks that couldn’t handle it, and it was amazing. It was amazing what we were able to comprehend from that where now you can just go out to the cloud, and it does it all for you with a couple clicks.” – Kellyn Gorman, discussing that being self-taught today is different than it once was
Mentioned in the Outro* Special shout out to former guest David Klee for recommending we have Kellyn as a guest on the show! * Through this interview Kellyn is modeling that we should be sharing our mistakes and challenges so that people don’t think we’re perfect or that everything we do succeeds. * Going where no one else will go looks like bravery on the surface, and it is very brave. But at a deeper level, this is a strategy that works for Kellyn because she knows herself and how she works best (the type of environment to be in to succeed, desired level of autonomy, etc.). Learning and the building of expertise are natural byproducts of executing on the strategy of going where no one else will go. * Getting to good enough in the output of our work requires being intentional about which aspects are good enough and which are of a higher quality based on how much time we have. + This advice is very much in line with advice from Finish by Jon Acuff. Acuff talks about choosing what to bomb or what you will be bad at to save time. We did a 4-part book review with guest host Jason Gass which you can find in the following episodes: - Episode 272 – Book Discussion: Finish, Part 1 – The Day after Perfect and Cut Your Goal in Half - Episode 273 – Book Discussion: Finish, Part 2 – Deliberate Time Investments and Avoiding Distractions – this episode discusses the concept of choosing what to bomb - Episode 274 – Book Discussion: Finish, Part 3 – Get Rid of Your Secret Rules and Use Data to Celebrate Your Imperfect Progress - Episode 275 – Book Discussion: Finish, Part 4 – The Day before Done and Perfectionism’s Final Roadblocks * We ended this week’s discussion on the topic of our industry and the difficulties of learning how everything in the cloud works at a deep level. Good documentation and good sources of information (which Kellen is both recommending to others and building herself) are essential in becoming a good troubleshooter. David Klee spoke to this in Episode 315 -A Love for Troubleshooting: Skill Development through Documentation with David Klee (1/2). * Remember to check out Kellyn’s blog – DBAKevlar.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ + Leave a Comment on Your Favorite Episode on YoutTube * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
If you think the job of a manager is to serve their team, think again. This week in episode 319 Richard Russell returns to make the distinction between how to manage well and the specific job of a people manager. As part of our discussion, Richard shares his transition into people management and how he later determined it wasn’t the right fit, his decision to pursue consulting, and the way he landed on coaching. We also highlight the importance of determining the definition of success in your work and finding the space that fits you.
Listen closely for tips on how to find the right coach who understands your world.
Original Recording Date: 02-17-2025
Richard Russell spends most of his time coaching leaders who work in scale-ups, big tech, and other corporate environments. If you missed part 1 of the discussion with Richard, check out Episode 318.
Topics – Pursuing People Management, The Job of a Manager is Upward, A Transition to Coaching, Comparing Coaches and People Managers, The Space That Fits You, Finding the Right Coach, The Greater Context3:02 – Pursuing People Management* Once you become a team lead you can go to maangement, stay team lead, or just be an individual contributor again. What made Richard want to move into people management? + Richard’s biggest realization was that people who were really good at specific technologies were better than him and getting even better at it faster than he was. + “Relatively speaking to people in my peers, I’m going to continue to fall behind, and the reason for it is because I’m not actually that interested enough to get really good at it…whereas they are…. I followed things that I was interested in, which was people.” – Richard Russell + In his early days, Richard was quite interested in Linux and programming ang got very good at it very fast. But then he lost interest in it because he got interested in other areas like business strategy, how people think, what management is, etc. + Richard remembers a teacher in high school commenting that he was a natural leader people would follow. Richard didn’t see himself in that light at the time because he was “the nerdy one.” Over time, as Richard was able to influence people (even before his role as a people manager), he began to recognize it was the result of an interest and care for people. + Richard shares a story of what motivates him using the example of a colleague he was able to help improve. - “These things stick in his mind – that care, that coaching, that attention that he got…the explanations that he got that were patient…and the trust that I had in him then moved him…. That interaction, that fundamental interaction with a human is the thing that continues to motivate me.” – Richard Russell, describing his impact on a colleague + Richard is always interested in technological bits and pieces, but eventually he will lose interest and move on to something else. When it comes to people, he’s never lost that interest. - Richard went into people management because he felt the topics related to it were and would be deeply interesting long-term. These interests might include topics such as people and how they think, how to influence people, how to solve communication challenges between people, aligning people with a business strategy, how to create value, what a good product is, etc. * How did people look at Richard’s experience as a mentor and team lead when he was trying to move into people management? Were those experiences as relatable as we think they are? + Richard was a team lead at Deutsche Bank. He then became an individual contributor at Google with roles as a Technical Account Manager and Sales Engineer. The first people manager role came 4-5 years after he began working at Google. + “In various situations you express leadership in formal or informal roles,” – Richard Russell + At Google Richard did a number of things that were acts of leadership, such as: - Running an event called TGIF and doing some public speaking / discussion moderation - Working closely with a team of engineers in India to develop software to get public transport data into Google Maps (not formally responsible for the effort but providing leadership and guiding people) + If Richard were interviewing someone now for a manager position, he might ask the following: - Tell me about a time when you got results from people, got them aligned on a problem, or solved an interpersonal problem with people - Examples of mentoring and growing junior employees - Tell me about a time when you got a group of people headed in the wrong direction to go in the right direction. + “A lot of this work is about people influencing and connecting the people to needs of the business and management. To answer it, yes, all of that work as a technical lead or a team lead or whatever it was in various situations…it’s all massively relevant.” – Richard Russell
8:07 – The Job of a Manager is Upward* How can listeners decide if people management is the right choice? + There is a debate about whether leaders are made or born. Richard thinks anyone can learn the skills of people management, but it’s important to consider your interests and motivations when thinking through it. + Richard made an error when going into people management that he sees a lot of people going into people management make now. + “The error that I made…in fact, I alluded to this earlier…the error that I see a lot of people making is they see people management as being going to bat for my team. My job as a people manager is to look after my team and to defend my team and to be a servant leader. But often we look at our managers and think they’re not quite defending us enough or they’re not representing us well enough…or all the problems come downwards and so on…. So, I’ll do it differently. And I’ll get up there, and I’ll make it better for my team. And that’s a good thing in many, many ways. However, the job of manager is not to serve the team. That’s the how. That’s how you do it. That’s how you do the job. That’s the best way to do the job. But the job is to provide value for your business, your organization, and your management. The job is upwards….” – Richard Russell + Technical people especially who go into management may disregard the fact that the job is upwardly facing. + At one time Google questioned whether managers were even needed, and when they tried operating without very many and it failed miserably, they started to look at what was really needed from managers and overhauled some of their management theory. - Servant leadership, mentorship, and guidance are certainly part of it. - Managers need to understand what the business really needs so they can help their team understand what the business needs and get the results.“This is the big thing which I think is the misunderstanding I think a lot of first-level managers, especially in technology have – what the job is.” – Richard Russell, on the job of a manager * What is the difference between a first-level manager and a second level manager’s job in terms of providing business value? + First-level managers can make the mistake Richard highlighted, but in most companies, this will not get you to second level maanger. + The second level manager is responsible for providing value but also for developing first-level managers. Some of this development is helping the first-level managers re-orient from previous experience as an individual contributor to focus upward. + In addition to helping first-level managers learn to be upwardly focused, second level managers need to be even more upwardly focused. + “Management is primarily an upwards focused job. This may be counterintuitive, and it may be controversial among some people. But the job is not to serve your team. The job is to deliver the value, and the how is to serve your team…because you don’t get results unless you do that. That statement is the reason. It’s not because it’s a good thing to do. It is a good thing to do. It’s not because it’s the right thing to do. It is the right thing to do. But it’s not because of that. It’s because as a business, what businesses do is they make money, and they provide value to customers. And they sell things, and that’s what defines a business. You’re hiring people in order to eventually make more money and sell more things to businesses and have your teams create more value. And, if I want to do that with knowledge workers, I’ve gotta have managers who serve them well and do well. But it’s so that we can make more money so that we can run a business.” – Richard Russell + Richard says in the past, people managers didn’t really understand the “how” of the job and didn’t care about teams. There has been a big movement toward servant leadership over time. * Nick says it sounds like there is a difference in the overall goal and mission of a role and how someone performs the duties to fit that. + Richard says this is not a subtle point. The manager’s job is managing situations to get the best results and not necessarily to make the team happy. It’s a tradeoff that can at times be difficult to navigate. - Sometimes a manager will need to be unpopular, even if trying to serve their team. Richard gives the example of putting a poor performer on the team on a performance improvement plan or getting them off the team.
13:29 – A Transition to Coaching* Did Richard want to keep going to higher levels of management after his experience as a first-level manager? + Richard had ambitions of being a founder, a CEO, or some kind of executive after stepping into management. + At the time, his definition of success was actually what other people expected of him or what he thought other people expected. It took a long time for Richard to realize these were not the things he wanted to do or where his energy came from. + We said management is about providing business value to the company, and this is something which is very important to Richard. There are 2 things Richard struggles with as a manager: - The first is putting the value delivery ahead of the people. Richard is very motivated by and cares about people, and it makes him a soft manager. He would rather primarily be developing people. - Secondly, Richard finds some aspects of delivering results very difficult such as delivering projects, plans, or documents. - “What I found is that when I was a people manager, when that pressure comes down on me or the team…I am not a good people manager in that I can’t care for my people. I can’t do that well. I can’t be the servant leader when I’m under pressure. I did not have that capability…. My shift first of all from being a people manager and wanting to be an executive to realizing I’m not sure I’m motivated to do that. I’m not sure I’m capable of doing that – deliver results through people and put the results first and still care for people…. I think the best way of delivering results is to care for people. That’s one of the best mechanisms to do, but when I’m under pressure, my way of dealing with pressure in those situations…I don’t have the capability to do the caring for people that’s going to get the results to deliver them. And that’s a characteristic about myself that I’ve learned that I’ve found very difficult to deal with because I fundamentally deeply do care about people. And when I’m under pressure in that management role and I’m pushing that pressure onto my team or doing whatever I’m doing, I’m not getting the results. And I’m not making them better. And I’m not happy. And I’m stressed. It’s not a good place for me.” – Richard Russell - When Richard realized management was not the right place for him, he went down the path of doing consulting. It was a lot of teaching, helping people solve problems, and doing some delivery work. Based on his characteristics, Richard found consulting was still too far down the path of delivering results. - “That’s why I’ve moved to being a coach because actually my job is to care about people…. I can do tough love when my job is to care about you and to help you grow, and I can do that really well in those situations because I don’t have the stress of making sure you’re delivering a result that I need for my success.” – Richard Russell * Richard’s success as a coach is aligned with the things he actually cares about. He cares about his clients and helps to develop them into better managers and leaders (i.e. clients get better results, are more capable as managers, have happier teams, etc.). + Richard gets a great deal of energy from these conversations, whereas being tasked with delivering a strategy or a plan makes him stressed. + “I’m quite passionate about this for people who are listening. Where you get energy from and what motivates you, if that’s really lined up with what success in your job is, that’s a wonderful place to be. And if when you’re doing these things you are the person you want to be, that’s great. If it’s not, maybe look at what change needs to happen. Quite a lot of people I know are just deeply motivated by operating and by building things and by creating things and solving technical problems. And that’s their motivation. …That’s fantastic. And if you can do that and you can care for people and you have those skills of managing and leading people and influencing people and understanding the business…then you’re capable of being an executive. You can get to any level, really. And that might be great for you. That might be the right thing. If you’re the kind of person who doesn’t care about people, you can still get there. You’re just going to cause a lot of pain along the way for other people, and it’s not going to be good. But you can get there…. I wouldn’t recommend it.” – Richard Russell
18:39 – Comparing Coaches and People Managers* We’ve spoken with others about coaching and being a people manager and some of the similarities and differences. What does Richard think the comparison looks like based on his experience? + Richard believes each person who wants to be successful as a people manager needs to be a great coach. This is non-negotiable. There are 2 main differences between coach and manager according to Richard. + The first is relationship – people managers coach their teams in certain situations and during 1-1 meetings, but there is a manager employee relationship still in place. The same manager who is coaching you is assessing you and doing reviews of your performance. A manager can support a promotion, a transfer to another team internally, and make the call to end your employment if that needs to happen. - “There’s a whole lot of perceived agenda. A good manager…can coach in those contexts without agenda. It’s about the person and developing the person, and I have had great managers who’ve been able to coach me and help me figure out what’s going on / find the right place while also not holding that as a threat or having that affect their assessment of me. It’s hard to do, but it’s possible. Being a great manager, you need to be able to do that, and it’s really, really important.” – Richard Russell + The second difference is that a manager’s job is to deliver results. - Part of delivering results is developing a competent team. - If a manager has a team member who would like to transfer to a different team, it creates a conflicting agenda. The manager still wants to deliver results and may be losing top talent, but they also want to support what is best for that team member. Richard says good managers should support what is best for a team member, even if that means leaving the team. - “If you’re really good as a manager, one of the things you do is you develop a reputation for identifying, hiring, attracting good people and developing them and seeing them move on to greatness. And then people will really want to come to you as a manager. Then you get the best people…. When you have these great managers in big companies and they move around, the first thing that happens is they bring along 4 or 5 or 10 of their best people from around the company and gather them together…. There’s a massive talent in that, and that’s partly about coaching and how you invest in your team and how you invest in their skills…so coaching is super important as a manager. And it is in many ways the same set of skills except that it’s in a context which is different.” – Richard Russell - Developing a good reputation for fostering talent as a manager can be helpful in companies of various sizes. This is partly about how you coach and develop your people and invest in their skills. + As a coach, Richard’s only loyalty is to his client and their interests. - The only real conflict that could come up is if Richard as the coach had a moral or ethical qualm with something the client is doing. - Richard works with his clients to improve what they are doing, which can mean the person wants to get promoted, for example. Richard is there to help the person do that and thrive as a person. - “Everyone I come across…it’s never just I want to get a promotion, or I want to get more money. There’s a deeper why…. Figuring out how to get people in touch with that and what’s going to make them happy in their careers is really important.” – Richard Russell - Listen to Richard tell the story of a fisherman who gets an unsolicited suggestion for creating a fishing business from a banker visiting the area. But creating and selling a business (what the banker thought success would be) wasn’t the definition of success the fisherman really had for his life. - Richard once defined success as being a successful executive. At one point he had a team of 100 people reporting into him. When Richard told a friend of his from Google about having a team of this size, his friend said, “wow, you’ve really made it.” Richard would later come to realize the role was not for him, and it was not who he wanted to be. - “Can you not create something that’s more like that now? Can you get more control over your life now about your work life balance? You’re traveling 4 days a week. Is that what you want to do?” – Richard Russell, on uncovering the deeper why behind what his clients want to do - Richard uses the example of his wife. For her, is a promotion really the right thing? A promotion involves more travel, more pressure, and more stress. - “I think most people, myself included, adopt definitions of success and failure from our context and our environment and from other people, and we internalize them. They’re not always beliefs that serve us. The people I’ve seen who are the happiest in their life, most fulfilled, and most successful in ways that matter are people who’ve managed to figure out what success means to them.” – Richard Russell - Some define success as the ability to tinker with hardware and software without the need to have direct reports or manage a team. Richard gives the example of an extremely talented individual at Amazon in this category. While we might say the person could be way more successful, the life this person has is the one he wants / chose. It goes back to how this individual defines success. * Does the coach have the ability to be more transparent with someone than a manager can be without feeling conflicted about the level of transparency? + Richard says yes because there is usually only one agenda. It might seem like a conflict of interest if Richard wants a case study or referral or testimonial, but it’s fundamentally aligned with what a client wants. + Managers have things which can pull them in other directions like HR rules, employment laws, corporate risk, etc. A manager’s need to deliver results and the desire to retain someone on their team (even if the person wants to leave the team) creates a conflicting agenda. Richard says it is possible to not be conflicted about these things, but it is difficult. It requires courage, confidence, and experience as a manager.
28:11 – The Space That Fits You* What are some of the interesting conflicts or interesting differences between being the owner / entrepreneur of a coaching business and actively coaching clients? + Conversations with coaching clients are very personal and confidential. If these could be shared, they would make great marketing materials. Any kind of marketing materials must be sanitized / obfuscated so as not to be personally identifiable. This seems like a conflict of interest, but one can simply learn to develop marketing materials without violating client confidentiality or trust. + Doing marketing, administrative work, and content creation is a different kind of work. Richard made a shift in his business over the last few months (which is how he and Nick connected originally). He was spending a lot of time on LinkedIn producing content for brand awareness of his business and at the same time doing consulting work, and he found it to be consistently difficult. + “Let’s try and move my own marketing to things that I feel are more natural for me and more energy productive, so I spend more time on longer form content on Substack. I’m creating something that I think is valuable for people, so I’m motivated to do that…. Now sharing it becomes not such a piece of hard work.” – Richard Russell + Richard also likes to be a guest on podcasts like Nerd Journey. He feels engaged in these kinds of conversations and does not feel the need to produce a sound byte. It’s about providing value and making the audience think. - Richard is also interviewing people for his own podcast. He finds it interesting to learn from the stories of others and share them with other people. + The realignment of Richard’s efforts makes the work easy because they are aligned with who he is and what he wants to do. - “When I’m doing good marketing, I’m kind of doing the stuff that I’m doing when I’m doing good coaching. It’s the same stuff with a slightly different context…. That’s really deeply aligned with what I believe in as a coach and what I want to do for my clients and how I want to help them.” – Richard Russell * Nick likes the process of continued iterative alignment with Richard’s interests and the things that give him energy. The ADHD brain can drop things once they become uninteresting. But once Richard got interested in people, he never found it boring. The focus remained. + Richard has always been interested in people as well as business, strategy, and marketing. A topic can be very interesting (business, strategy, marketing), but the work of producing the value in that area can be quite difficult. + Richard will continue to find these topical areas interesting, but he realized the need to ensure the production of value is in way that gives him energy. + Producing a book, a training course, a project plan, or some other thing that requires very long periods of intense focus can be difficult for Richard. He loses interest in the thing he’s working on but not the topical area in which it resides. + Richard tells us some of the realizations he has shared came from working with his own coach. When originally asked about what gave him energy, Richard wasn’t sure how to answer. He needed to think deeply on it and iterate a little bit. - “I was quite convinced that being a consultant was the right path, and solving strategy problems was the right thing to do. But I realized after a while that what gets me going there is those conversations, especially helping them get a breakthrough themselves…not producing a piece of strategy or teaching them how to do strategy or creating content that helps them do that. Maybe consulting is not for me because if I do that…the more successful I am the less energy I have. And I’ll get down about it.” – Richard Russell, on why consulting isn’t the right path - Listen to Richard describe the process of obtaining and helping a consulting client and which things gave him energy compared to those that drained his energy (writing proposals, setting up meetings, producing an artifact as a takeaway, etc.). + Richard talks about his original move into systems engineering and how getting trouble tickets gave him energy. They were problems he would get to solve. * Nick says it sounds like Richard is encouraging us to break things down to a task level to analyze what gives us energy, but we should keep in mind the topical areas that get us excited. For Richard, it seemed like it was the intersection of people, business, and technology. + “You can’t always be 100% on I only do things that energize me. There’s always washing to do…. There’s always some of this. I do think that figuring out where your fit is is partially about…you’ve got to be realistic about what people want and what demand there is…. Figuring out what demand is and figuring out what I’m good at and where I get my energy from…that’s the whole Ikigai thing, right? What people want, what the world needs, what I am good at, and what I enjoy doing – in the middle of that is…your sweet spot.” – Richard Russell + Richard remembers going through school and choosing his degree / looking at the careers guide. It seemed like making a selection was putting himself in a box that would define who he was for the rest of his life. It took Richard a long time to realize it’s about his ability to relate to people and how he makes people feel which is in the intersection of all the areas we discussed. - Richard came to realize that what he does with people is valuable. - “It’s not everyone who does this. And not everyone has this motivation. And not everyone is interested like that…. I find it interesting, and I find it motivating…. I get value from it. Just getting comfortable with who I am and where value really is, and it’s no longer defined by phrase on a paper or degrees or doing things that people think are clever. It’s a really big change. For different people it’s different…what fits you but finding that space is really important.” – Richard Russell + Nick believes it takes some sampling and iteration to understand where you need to be. What Richard has found is similar to the concept of area of destiny. - Richard felt like early on he was in a technical box, and he was proud of it. He encourages us to be proud if that is the box where we fit. - Over time, Richard met people whose background might be different than what they were doing. He cites examples like a systems administrator colleague with an arts and music degree, a doctor who became an agile and scrum trainer, etc. Seeing people make these changes and shifts helped Richard understand he no longer needed to define himself the way he had been (in a specific box). - “I don’t need to define myself by that box anymore…. You can move boxes, and it’s fine. And there’s lots of value in lots of different boxes or spaces or whatever you want to call them.” – Richard Russell
39:26 – Finding the Right Coach* How would someone recognize they have found a coach who can help them? + Richard says see if they help you. For context, his sales calls are coaching calls. + Part of this is determining if you and a potential coach can speak the same language and understand each other. Richard remembers meeting some coaches who didn’t have the right background to help him. - “I can’t feel like I connect with you because I don’t feel like you’ve been where I have been or anywhere like I’ve been. I don’t think you understand my world. I’ve had other coaches who haven’t had those lists on their CVs. But at least they speak the language, and I understand that they’ve had the exposure to other people to figure it out.” – Richard Russell, sharing thoughts on coaches who were not right for him + Richard’s background helps him connect with product and technical people. He has been in big tech companies and in startups and can speak the same language as others in them now. No one needs to explain what a sprint is to him, for example. - When you know the person coaching you understands where you are coming from it creates trust. It fosters a conversation about a problem so a coach can help you work through it. - Richard says there is a blurry line between coaching, advising, teaching, and consulting. The coach has to caution against giving too many answers. Coaches can give some answers, but part of the work is understanding the person and what they are trying to do. - “Did I get value from this, and would I want more of that? Do I trust this person? Do I feel like they understand me in a way that matters to what I need to do? And, are they helping me? …Did they help me come up with answers? Did I get the change that I want? Do I feel like I’m making progress on these things? If it’s literally just they told me things and they answered questions, it’s probably not going to be deeper change for the long term. But at the same time if there’s none of that, do they even know my world? Do I trust them? You have to have a bit of both of these things.” – Richard Russell, on how to determine if a coach is the right fit for you * This brings us full circle back to building trust. Some of the things Richard shared in finding the right coach could also be things we use to determine if working for a specific people manager is right for us. + Richard feels like technical managers need at least some context, even if it’s not the same degree of experience as the people they manage. - Richard shares the story of a manager he had who came from marketing and law. This person asked all sorts of questions when he onboarded and wanted to understand what systems did and how they interact. Knowledge of the systems and their function empowered this manager to have conversations about them in an effective way.
43:41 – The Greater Context* Nick feels there is a nuance to communicating with executives that technical people do not always understand. + Richard says this happens with people who are functionally skilled in whatever function it is (technology or some other area). + “Your manager may not know the same level of details that you do about things, and that’s normal and that’s ok…. Some of their judgements might not make sense to you…. The real thing is to spend the time to learn how they think or why they’re making decisions…how they’re thinking about something, how they’re prioritizing…. Largely this is about understanding the broader context that they have because by nature of the position in the organization they have broader context. They have much more connection with up – with managers above and across as well…. They should be able to help you understand at least the pieces of that broader context that you need to know. When you’re relating to them, whatever level you’re relating to…first of all spend time to understand their needs and what’s going on and what they need from you. I made this mistake early on in my career with my own manager of basically not having interest in what he wanted and having my own opinions on everything.” – Richard Russell + Richard says it’s important to understand the metrics and how your manager prioritizes things. Be open to learning the greater context. It is extremely important to be coachable and open to learning. + Richard shares the story of a CTO who would ignore non-technical topics in executive meetings. Richard then encouraged this person to pay attention and ask questions when other executives were speaking about their own functional area (i.e. when the Marketing person was presenting their plans, etc.). As it turns out, the CTO knew about an upcoming software release that could help a marketing initiative, and because he was engaged in the conversation and willing to understand the greater context, both executives built trust and benefited from sharing their respective knowledge. - Richard encourages us all to take the time to understand the context from areas outside our own. + “This is the big difference between executive and junior, and this is the thing that executives notice about juniors. You’re paying attention. You actually care about the context in which you’re working. The thing that defines the value of what you do…you’re caring about it. You’re someone I can teach.” – Richard Russell + Much of the job of an executive is getting the context and figuring out how to communicate it downward in a meaningful way. - A CTO, for example, has to build a competent technical team and then has to give their team enough context to be able to make deicisions that are useful. The CTO would be the main communication conduit for this team. - “Somehow through the mechanisms that you use to communicate with people in this larger organization, you have to give them enough context such that they can then be empowered to make decisions without then having to come back to you…. So, this is all about empowering people, and this relates back to that whole topic of servant leadership and doing it well by serving teams…giving them enough context so they can make a decision and then coaching them to make better decisions. And, then understanding what misconceptions or errors are they making and where and why and then figuring out…how do I influence that? What other context do I need to get, and how do the decisions they’re making actually fit into the rest of the organization? And where else do I need to influence? …This is about empowerment. You can’t be empowered unless you have the context. And in fact, the context in some ways constrains you, so you have to give the constraints. And that empowers people.” – Richard Russell - Managers must learn how to communicate context. + Nick loves the fact that Richard’s illustrations show that we all have gaps and need to get better. * If you want to follow up with Richard… + Visit his website + Visit his YouTube Channel – @richardarussell + Visit the Scale Up Leaders Substack + If you need a coach, Richard is currently taking clients! Contact him, and tell him you listened to this episode.
Mentioned in the Outro* This episode pairs nicely with the following past episodes: + Episode 308 – Probe and Discover: Coaching for Impact with Ramzi Marjaba (2/2) + Episode 228 – The Displacement of Joy with Scott Egbert (2/2) + [Episode 269 – Monetize Yourself: Leveraging Your Most Valuable Knowledge with Erik Gross (3/3)](https://nerd-journey.com/monetize-yourself-leveraging-your-most-valuable-knowledge-with-erik-gross-3-3/ * There was a mention of Ikigai in this episode, which is a state of wellbeing that arises from devotion to activities one enjoys, which also brings a sense of fulfillment. It can be simply translated as a reason to get up in the morning. This idea seems similar to our discussion of area of destiny.
Have you ever felt a work task was boring or a waste of time? It might be because you didn’t understand why you were asked to do it in the first place. Richard Russell, our guest this week in episode 318, struggled with this in his early role as a programmer. All he wanted was to understand more about the business problem his work was intended to solve. In that role, however, Richard never got those answers, and he would later move into systems administration.
Richard has developed a pattern of pursuing the things which he finds interesting – a pattern that began in college and has continued over the course of his career as a programmer, a systems administrator, and as a consultant. Each of these roles combined with his interest in the business prepared Richard for the role of team lead in the banking industry. Join us as we explore the team lead role and why Richard progressed to it, how he built trust as a consultant and as a sales engineer, and his genuine interest in people. Listen closely to learn strategies that will increase your ability to influence others, ask the right questions, and build strong working relationships with colleagues and customers.
Original Recording Date: 02-17-2025
Topics – Meet Richard Russell, An Interest in Mathematics and Computer Science, Moving from Programming to Systems Administration, Consulting and an Interest in the Business, Combatting Ego and Building Trust, Sharing Your Priorities, Progressing to Team Lead2:43 – Meet Richard Russell* Richard Russell spends most of his time coaching leaders who work in scale-ups, big tech, and other corporate environments. + Most of Richard’s clients have some executive responsibilities and come from a product or technology background. Many times, these clients are transitioning into product / tech leadership roles or CEO / founder roles. + Richard made the relatively recent transition from doing consulting work to focusing on coaching. + Richard resides in Luxembourg with his family.
3:29 – An Interest in Mathematics and Computer Science* What prompted Richard to study math and computer science in school? + Richard’s father was an electrical engineer and was very enthusiastic about that career path. + Richard had a Commodore 64 as his first computer and tinkered with various others over time, even getting into programming. + In high school, Richard did very well in the hard sciences – math, physics, and chemistry. When forced to choose a non-science course during his senior year, he chose economics because it seemed the most mathematical. + Though he did start out studying engineering in college, Richard made some changes to focus on the things he found most interesting – mathematics, computer science, philosophy, cognitive science, theology, etc. + Richard found applied mathematics quite boring at first (just solving differential equations, for example). It was more interesting to him when physics and engineering teachers taught mathematics because there was a need to solve a problem. - Richard later went into pure mathematics and found it the most interesting of all. - Richard says computer science was something he got into primarily because of his talent in mathematics. + Nick remembers hearing physics majors in college echo the same sentiment as Richard. They learned more mathematics in physics courses than in their respective calculus courses. - To Richard, initial learnings in calculus seemed to be solving complicated problems that were not applied to anything, and it was a sharp contrast to the way problems were presented in physics or engineering. - In the sciences, Richard had an interest in the practical need. In pure mathematics, he had the interest in learning anything within that discipline. * Richard started wanting to learn more about the applications of mathematics and became really interested in the abstract concepts of mathematics. Was it a similar pattern when Richard learned programming? + Richard says he gets interested in topics, and he wasn’t interested in the complications of applied mathematics (i.e. doing integrals, for example). + When it came to computer science, Richard was interested in how things worked and some of the theory behind it. He also liked the ability to express creativity and control what appeared on the screen through programming (which required no artistic talent). + Richard later became interested in businesses and how products are built. He had no background in product management and wanted to build games. - “The mathematics behind, especially graphics, was very complex, and it was exactly the stuff I didn’t like doing. Whereas the business games and business side of applications or programs or websites and so on…they are quite simple in many ways. The complexity is really about…what do I actually want to achieve as opposed to how do I achieve it. And so that became much more interesting to me. A lot of that is related to my interest in product management as I went on further and in business generally. I have this habit of obsessing over topics, whatever they are, whatever I’m interested in…so I got deep in whatever topic it is.” – Richard Russell
9:40 – Moving from Programming to Systems Administration* Was Richard still obsessed with programming once it became his job? + Richard tells us within the last year he was diagnosed with ADHD. + “I tend to just find things interesting and obsess over them. When it’s work it’s not necessarily interesting inherently. It could be. It might not be. The decision on whether it’s interesting or not is independent of whether it’s work.” – Richard Russell + In his first job, Richard was doing software development but worked on a product that was very boring to him. The product was internally facing administration tool that did asset tracking for national parks. The product had only 6 users. + Richard would be given a user story and have to build something from it (a web page, etc.). + “I remember thinking…why are we doing this, and what problem are we actually trying to solve? Why haven’t I met any of these people who are using this thing? Why do I not understand what they’re trying to do? Is this even a good way of doing it? It’s just like we’re taking an old database system and turning it into a web application because that’s the thing you do. The whole thing…it was fundamentally…on a deep level boring because I wasn’t talking to the people who were having the problem. I didn’t know what we were solving. I didn’t know why we were doing it. I was just producing web pages.” – Richard Russell * Richard then shifted from programming to systems administration. The goal was solving problems, and there was a person who had a problem, which made it interesting. + Sometimes Richard would need to go and talk to someone to solve a problem. But if a system was down or not performing well, Richard understood the impact to the user base. He was motivated to solve the problems because they impacted people who would then appreciate that the problems were fixed. + Richard also worked on patching for Solaris servers (again, a problem to solve). + Richard contrasts the work in systems administration to his work programming and building web pages. It would take a long time to create a release, and once the release was live, he would never find out if what he did was of any value to anyone. There was no feedback or ability to see the impact of work completed. + In his role as a programmer, did Richard express his feelings to his manager that the work was not making an impact? - Richard says he kept his feelings to himself but also does not believe he was aware of what was specifically frustrating him. - In that environment, developers were basically handed something to build and told to go build it. It was not obvious that developers would have an interest in the business. This has changed over the last 25-30 years, however. * What were some of the challenges of moving from development to the systems administration side? + Richard thinks his advice for someone looking to do that now would be well dated. + But at the time, Richard had worked with Linux quite a bit and even ran a Linux Install Fest. + He also tried to start a startup based on systematic remote administration and patching hundreds of Debian Linux servers. - Richard mentions he had played around with Linux in his spare time because it was interesting. It became a hobby. + Richard feels that today software development is more connected to the business, while systems administration is somewhat removed from it. - Richard built a lot of computers earlier in his career and mentions people have moved up the stack. Doing this same thing now is an increasingly niche area (i.e. the hardware portion). - “From my own personal interests, I found it much more motivating to be with people and businesses influencing people and understanding how and why people buy things and what kind of things people buy. That’s much more interesting to me now…. Sysadmin type work is very much a service. If you look at any business, sysadmin or anyone doing IT infrastructure…it is a cost center. It will always be a cost center…unless you’re in a business where it is a business where it is the profit center, which is very rare. In most cases it’s a cost center. When you’re in a cost center you’re always one of the people who gets secondary importance in the organization…at best.” – Richard Russell - Nick clarifies that systems administration could mean hardware, software, the hypervisor layer, the virtual machine layer, the operating systems, administration of the pipelining tools that development teams use, etc. - Richard mentioned he’s not hands on with most of these things any longer but that levels of abstraction continue to rise. Ideally people would want to be in an area that has some demand for the specific type of work (i.e. a growth area). Think about businesses who make money from doing what you are doing as opposed to businesses where what you do would be a cost center.
19:15 – Consulting and an Interest in the Business* How did Richard’s early consulting experience fit into the story? + After moving from developer to systems administration, Richard chose to go independent. He provided systems administration services to a number of small businesses in his hometown. Richard refers to it as freelancing. + Did Richard like working with multiple customers instead of just working in systems administration full-time for a single customer? - One characteristic of ADHD minds is the desire to have variety. Richard likes having variety in his work and the ability to learn something new. - Richard knows not everyone feels this way, and he’s had numerous colleagues who would rather go deep into something, own it, and build it over the long term. - When consulting with small businesses, you work as a peer or expert along with the people who have the business need, and in Richard’s opinion, the conversations are more interesting. Richard was able to discuss the business problems with his consulting customers and make a recommendation for a solution only after he understood what they were trying to achieve. When working inside a large organization on a team of systems administrators, he was removed from those decisions and focused more on task completion to solve problems, but the systems administration work was still more interesting than his work as a developer when given a spec to build. - The human relationship aspect was also very interesting to Richard. It wasn’t just working with colleagues but meeting people who were not experts in the same area and translating their need into the right technology recommendation. * Nick feels like Richard’s move into consulting is a mirror of his move from the application of mathematics in the sciences to focusing more on the abstract concepts of pure mathematics. Solving a system problem could be thought of as the application part, and the business problems and challenges and translating back to a solution could be thought of as the more abstract part. Nick feels many people don’t naturally know how to ask the right questions to discover business problems and map them to technology solutions. Did Richard know how to do this or have to learn how to do it? + Richard says he’s always had an innate interest in these types of things, and this is the reason for his decision to study philosophy and psychology while in college. + It takes time to develop deep expertise in mathematics and engineering topics to be able to have an intelligent conversation about it. + Richard also had an interest in marketing and business but felt they were magical areas he didn’t understand well, usually feeling he was the one who knew the least about them in any room. But the interest in these areas drove him to keep asking questions about them. + “So over time I kept asking questions and learning stuff and eventually figured out that actually, it’s not that complicated. It’s not that hard…. I have a voracious appetite for reading books…and I read books about marketing and strategy and influence and psychology and management…. So, I’d read a lot of things and pick things up there…. It took me a long time to realize that…actually I do know quite a lot about this stuff now, and I don’t need to have the degree in that topic to be something of an expert in some of these topics. But I certainly learned from these books and from other people how better to go about certain types of questions….” – Richard Russell + Richard cites reading The Mom Test as extremely helpful in learning how to understand what types of problems people really have as opposed to the problems we might want to solve. * When someone says they have a need or a problem, Nick says we often go to solutioning / presenting a solution before truly asking enough questions. Are people bothered less when asked more questions than we might think they will be in these cases? + Richard shares a story from his time at Deutsche Bank. He had moved from Australia to London to take the job and worked with a team who was developing software for trading foreign exchange (traders in banks would use it). At the time, he had little understanding of foreign exchange, banking, or finance and sought help from co-workers to understand the terminology. + “I did a little bit of analysis…. Looking at this…that means that every week we trade 2 Australian GDPs. That’s a lot of money…. So, I talked to my business analyst on the team…just asked him, ‘can you teach me about this stuff?’ …He just sat down and explained to me who is doing this, why they’re doing it, and so on. I remember looking at these things and thinking, ‘why does anyone want to buy that thing, this credit default swap?’ …It’s really interesting the way these things work. So, I learned all that from this guy who was a business analyst. He had been in banking for 30 years…. When I asked him, he was like, ‘cool – I get to explain my area. I get to explain what I know.’ …Most of the time…people are willing to explain to someone interested.” – Richard Russell, on learning the banking industry from an analyst colleague - The analyst above helped Richard understand the need for liquidity, why certain types of products and systems existed, why some customers wanted to buy specific products (i.e. balancing risk and reward, etc.), and why other companies might not be building the same thing as the bank. We should not be afraid of asking questions within our own company to better understand the business. - Richard says this was the exact opposite of his work building software. He remembers going to the trading floor to ask people what they do each day and why there were 9 different screens displaying information, for example. - Nick recently heard a personal development teacher talking about learning who recommended telling people we don’t have enough information to understand something yet when asking for clarification / explanation. - Richard says one of the worst things we can do is be shy about asking the seemingly dumb questions. Ask why something is being done or why people want a certain thing. These types of questions have an interesting nuance. - “Often, people are too shy about asking questions that sound like that. You never learn, and then you never have any idea…. The person on the other end can kind of figure out if you really don’t understand it, and what they want is for you to ask the dumb question so that they can go, ‘cool – now I get to explain the basics to you so you’ll understand. And now that I’ve explained it to you, I now trust that you understand it. Now I trust you more because you’ve asked the question.’ I often find in most of my work these days asking that question really helps.” – Richard Russell - Richard will sometimes ask questions he knows the answer to in order to get people to explain something to him in a way that they believe he understands. It’s a little counterintuitive, but then the person will trust him.
31:11 – Combatting Ego and Building Trust* Do most people have to get past their own ego when asking these questions? + Richard says yes, especially if you come from an intellectual / academic kind of background. He came from an environment where it was important to be right. + This comes out in two specific ways for Richard – 1) when someone asks him a question and he doesn’t know the answer and 2) asking seemingly silly questions to get more information on certain topics. - In the early days when asked something for which Richard did not know the answer he might try to improvise or make something up (which did not add value). - Richard tells the story of getting some coaching from his manager when he was a sales engineer at Google. The advice was to admit he did not know but commit to finding the right answer for the customer. Also, Richard would share with the customer that his company has solved the problem for organizations with similar setups in the past. - “What I was doing in that situation as a sales engineer…is first of all acknowledging that I don’t know…but then also building their trust in our organization and my ability to navigate our organization and our ability as an organization to serve people like them…that they will get the result that they want…. I realized my job in that role is not necessarily to even answer the questions. It’s not to give information. It’s to create trust. That was my role. Some of it was about influencing and getting data and changing things…but most of it was about creating trust. Part of that was about learning that I have to create trust in my client…when I don’t know the answer…. There’s a great deal of pride in not knowing and saying you don’t know…very hard to come to terms with ‘I don’t know but trust me.’ But in a sense that actually does make a difference and it does help people, and it’s not misleading because we will figure it out and we have done it.” – Richard Russell - Richard recalls a different scenario not so long ago when he was speaking to a group of business and marketing leaders. At that speaking session, someone introduced Richard as one of Europe’s leading marketers just as he walked up on stage. He initially did not consider himself an expert and had to get over the impostor syndrome in that moment. Much of the knowledge gained for that talk came from asking those questions that seemed silly at first. - “When you do ask the dumb questions about whatever they are, you’re just getting people to talk about stuff that’s their expertise…. I don’t have much fear of asking silly questions anymore at all. I used to have a massive fear of it. I think just these various experiences of realizing that most of the things that are going on are not about whether I know or not. It’s about can I figure out the answer or can we find the answer or can someone find the answer…what do we need to move forward in whatever we’re doing? And how do we get that thing?” – Richard Russell
34:44 – Sharing Your Priorities* Nick says when you tell someone you will find the answer and you go find it, you are developing a reputation that others can count on you to find answers. + “Funny enough also…a lot of these questions…they don’t actually need the answer…. Sometimes the question is a mechanism to find out ‘can I trust you?’ Sometimes they’re worried about something that they don’t actually need to worry about, and they learn something else along the way – they don’t need to worry about it. This is especially the case with e-mails. You have these e-mail requests that come in, and sometimes some of them come in and they’re urgent…. And sometimes, you ignore them, and they go away, and it doesn’t matter. Judging which ones are the right ones to do that with can be hard…. There’s a lot of things that come in that aren’t actually important.” – Richard Russell + Another aspect of getting back to someone with an answer is understanding why they need the answer. + Richard likes to share the list of things he’s been working on to get answers for with someone and then ask if the person still needs them. Sometimes the answer is no because trust has been developed. - This can be applied to e-mails by responding to ask if something is still needed (usually after a decent amount of time has passed since the request came in). It might save you time spent on something which is not necessary any longer. + By asking if someone still needs something we are showing that we care, that we remembered, and that we were listening to what the person had to say. + When something is deemed as still important, you can let the requestor know where it ranks on your priority list and then ask again how important it is / whether it is more important than other items. - “Having that active conversation about ‘how important is this’ is a really useful tool to figure out what the most important thing actually is.” – Richard Russell - This can work with managers, directors, customers, or other stakeholders. These individuals may have many requests but actually only care about a few of them. - We can do the prioritization and bring it back to them to help us decide if something should take prioritization. * Nick says we need input on priorities from others and that we should not be ashamed when we ask for guidance. + “What I recommend doing, especially as you get more senior, is literally just maintain your own priority list…whatever you think is right. Use your own judgement on that. You might be wrong. And then share it with your managers or your stakeholders and say ‘here’s my priority list, and here’s my capacity. I’ll draw a line under what I think I can get done this week….’ And, have a conversation about it. It’s an opportunity for at least a good manager to educate you on how to make priority decisions…or for your stakeholders to explain ‘this is way more important than that because of…’” – Richard Russell + Sometimes the conversations about priorities and how long something will take can be very helpful. - Richard tells the story of a project he felt would take him 2 weeks just to develop a plan. Someone coached Richard that 2 weeks might be enough to finish the entire project and coached him on the way in which he was approaching the project. Richard said it helped him realize the project was not as challenging as originally expected. - Something similar happened on a large project when Richard worked at Amazon. Something that was expected to take 6 months only needed 2 weeks of time to complete, but the team only came to the realization after truly understanding what they needed to accomplish without letting the scope creep too much. - “But having that conversation and clarifying what the real need is, why it’s important, how you’re going about doing it…it was a bit of coaching, a bit of context setting, a bit of…just brainstorming together, a bit of collaboration…and presto – 6 months of work turned into 2 weeks…of a team of 4 or 5 engineers.” – Richard Russell
39:48 – Progressing to Team Lead* One step between an individual contributor and manager can be team lead or technical lead. What would Richard say the team lead role really is and is not based on his experience as team lead for the bank early in his career? + The team Richard was on was somewhat like a DevOps type of team today, but at that time it was a mix of DevOps, 3rd level support, and systems administration. + There was a team of 6-7 people with variable levels of skill. Richard was among the most skilled on the team but in his opinion not the best. + “The reason why I got that role was because the people who were more skilled than me or better than me were number 1 not interested in it, number 2 quite difficult to deal with…and demanding and critical of other people when they didn’t get it right. And then thirdly, they weren’t that interested in the business, the customer. …My counterpart at the bank would say…the reason why they wanted me to be the team lead was because I’m the only one in the group that really cared about the business and asked questions about their business…. Everyone else was just doing work, whereas I was interested in understanding it.” – Richard Russell + Being a team lead isn’t just about rallying other employees, helping them focus, or coaching them. This is only a part of it. All of this is for one purpose – delivering value to the business or the customer. + “To me the difference between a team lead and a manager is probably more about the formal responsibility of performance reviews and the administrative kind of people stuff. The team lead is kind of like that person who is…doing the leading part and getting people in the right direction without necessarily assessing individuals’ performance or hiring and firing and doing performance reviews and so on. That was what my role was anyway.” – Richard Russell, on being a team lead + Richard was the person they felt they could trust for the business. His manager and others felt like the team respected him. Richard would coach the junior people and get the senior people working in the right direction. He calls the job “an influencing thing.” + Richard thinks being placed in this role kind of happened naturally. A specific dynamic formed, and then there were conversations about formalizing the role at some stage. Richard calls it more of a practical role more so than a formal role. - It was about caring for the client’s needs (the business) and being able to influence / coach people. - “It had nothing to do with me having the best technical skills. I was good, and I was able to teach people…able to coach people…. It had nothing to do with me being the best technical decision maker.” – Richard Russell - Richard mentions a member of the team who was extremely technical (more so than Richard) and was developing an architecture to solve a problem. Richard would help him understand the need for simplicity and getting things completed faster rather than engineering the perfect solution. It was about delivering short-term value. + What was Richard’s interaction with his manager like when he was a team lead? - Their conversations were more about how well the team was working, how individuals were doing, and if they were the right kind of people to put in a client-facing role. Richard had input on hiring / firing decisions as well. - Richard also acted as the main point of contact with the client to stay aligned on what the team was trying to achieve and why, communicating this in both directions (to / from client and to / from the team). - “The conversations in that role became much more interesting because I’m interested in the business and the people.” – Richard Russell
Mentioned in the Outro* We talked about Richard’s progression to team lead in this episode. As a late celebration of International Women’s Day, go back and listen to advice from some of the ladies of Nerd Journey to get different perspectives on the role of team lead. + Episode 279 – Change Management: The Hardest Leap and Developing People with Marni Coffey (2/3) + Episode 246 – Learning to Lead and a Culture of Excellence with Dr. Sirisha Kuchimanchi (2/3) * Admitting we don’t know is something we can learn to do. It’s learning humility, just like when you ask those seemingly dumb questions about things you don’t understand. * Do you still need this? + This can certainly be great to help manage priorities. It could be a way to get someone to say they don’t need something as Richard mentioned. Asking this question could also be a way to discuss urgency and deadline if those have changed or just were not communicated. * To learn more about what Richard does in his coaching business: + Visit his website + Visit his YouTube Channel – @richardarussell
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
Cruise ship captains rely on the expertise of a local harbor pilot to safely dock the ship at a port. What if we as the captains of our careers sought the expertise of a harbor pilot to help us navigate a potential employer and their processes? Not sure how to find one?
This week in episode 317 we explore this analogy of the captain, the harbor pilot, and how the collaboration between them makes for a safe docking event. We’ll talk through what a harbor pilot might look like, how you can be a harbor pilot for others, and how you can find one for yourself.
Original Recording Date: 02-20-2025
Topics – A Topic Idea from Taking a Cruise, Common Mistakes of the Captain, Understanding the Harbor Pilot, Finding a Harbor Pilot, Wrapping Up1:01 – A Topic Idea from Taking a Cruise* Today’s episode is just John and Nick. We’re taking a break this week from having guests and want to share a topic based on a personal experience Nick had recently. * Nick and his wife like to take cruises, and on a recent cruise he attended a special panel discussion with the captain and other senior officers. After some discussion about the jobs and careers of the captain and his senior officers, someone asked a very interesting question, and the answer to it gave Nick the idea for this topic. Here’s the question: + What is the role of the harbor pilot that boards the cruise ship before we dock in every point? + The collaboration between the captain of the ship and the harbor pilot is what allows safe docking of the ship at a port. This concept gave Nick an idea of how this can apply to searching for jobs. + The captain in this analogy is the job seeker. The harbor pilot is a person with expert knowledge of a company who can guide you (someone who knows where you’re headed). + What is the split in responsibility of the captain and the harbor pilot? - The captain knows everything about the ship / vessel and is in charge of all operations. They know the capabilities of the ship. The captain knows the ship’s planned course of sailing and the approach planned for docking at a specific port. There is an entire bridge team working to operate the ship, and all are accountable to the captain. - The harbor pilot has expert knowledge of the port. They know the weather patterns. They have worked with many different ships and are there to help the captain dock the ship at a specific port. - Regardless of what the harbor pilot says or brings to the equation, the captain makes the final decision on what will be done. Even though their collaboration is a partnership, the captain has to be the one to give the orders. A captain has to take in the guidance from the harbor pilot through the lens of what the ship can do. The captain may choose to follow the harbor pilot’s advice or go against it in some cases. + John sees many implications here: - Am emphasis on collaboration between the 2 roles - The captain has ultimate responsibility for the outcome of the ship regardless of who they collaborate with. The captain has to own the decisions. - “You’re the captain. You’re ultimately responsible…just like if we are job seekers or managing our own careers, we are ultimately responsible for the outcome of that career.” – John White
4:55 – Common Mistakes of the Captain* What are some common mistakes that a captain (or job seeker) might make? + John thinks of not taking responsibility or just handing over responsibility for docking the boat to the harbor pilot (i.e. becoming a passenger and just doing what you’re told rather than being the captain). What does that look like in greater detail in a job seeker? - Nick says maybe it is going wherever the wind blows you or only considering opportunities that come to you. - This could also mean you didn’t do any planning. The captain has to chart the course for the entire voyage including the selection of routes to take and the order in which the ship will visit ports. - Have you researched the company to learn as much about the culture as possible? - Are you prepared to answer technical or other kinds of questions? - Have you thought about the questions you want to ask in an interview, and do you know how to ask questions that suit the way you like to work as discussed in Episode 314 – Make Goals Inevitable with ADHD: Stressors and Entrepreneurship with Skye Waterson (2/2)? - “Here’s the part of the sea that I’m in. These are the potential ports, and I need to know if my ship is appropriate for that port. That’s some of the deep research, And then, once we decide as captains of our careers that we actually want to do some much, much deeper investigation of a specific port, of a specific career branch or an organization to go to…we need to actually navigate how to dock….” – John White - Other examples would be blindly applying to a company without doing any research or relying too much on a recruiter to help you navigate the opportunity (i.e. being too passive and not following up when a recruiter doesn’t respond in a timely manner). + At some point, the captain has to make a decision whether to take advice as it’s given by the harbor pilot or to adjust it / go against it because the captain knows the ship better than anyone just as you know yourself better than anyone. - Maybe a harbor pilot is used to more container ships, and a lot of the advice you get is geared more toward other types of ships. You as the captain have to know your unique capabilities and take customized action based on the advice. - Listen to Nick’s example of this scenario from a recent cruise. The captain knew the ship had a particular type of propeller that could be rotated to hold the ship close enough to the dock / pier so passengers could safely enter / exit after someone had parked a small boat in the path of the cruise ship. - “As the captain…the outcome that you need is not just docking, but you need…a way to get your passengers on and off…. It’s not just landing at the company. It’s landing with the right role with the right team.” – John White - Nick says an obstacle in your way at the pier may require a different approach like we discussed to dock safely, but in a different scenario it could also be a red flag indicating you (the job seeker) don’t visit the port at all. John gives the example of very non-standard job roles being a red flag at a company. + The other end of the spectrum would be ignoring all the advice about the port (a company) or not seeking advice in the first place. This assumes you are the expert but have also ignored local knowledge and local context. - How many times has the captain even visited that port compared to their overall time on the ship? Nick argues that we can’t be experts at the port where we’re trying to dock the ship. The harbor pilot helps ships dock at this port on a daily basis. - John feels like he has made this mistake before. About once per half, if a recruiter reaches out, he has a conversation with them to understand a specific role and practice interviewing skills. John stresses the importance of our need to maintain interviewing skills. At times John has approached these conversations without the same level of preparation as when he is seriously interviewing (i.e. not even looking for a harbor pilot). - Nick has made a similar mistake. Sometimes recruiters have reached out with an interesting role, and he was just too busy to dig deeper other than saying thank you. That’s kind of like disregarding the port as a possibility.
13:35 – Understanding the Harbor Pilot* We said the harbor pilot has expertise on the port itself. What might the harbor pilot look like at any given company? + This could be anyone who currently works at a company or who has worked there in the past. This person would understand how the company runs internally and details of what a role is truly like. + Nick says connecting with a harbor pilot can help us set the right expectations when considering a job at a specific company. It sets expectations about docking the ship at this specific port and how you might do it safely. + John says the person acting as a harbor pilot may understand internal priorities and how to navigate those. It could even be someone who has gone through the interview process at the specific company for a similar role, even if they don’t work for the company currently. People who have gone through the interview process at this company in the last 6-12 months will be more helpful than those who went through it 5 years ago, for example. + John thinks the harbor pilot could be people at the company who interact with the specific role you’re targeting. - If you’re looking for a role in sales engineering, maybe you seek out someone in professional services or technical account management. - If you’re looking for a role as a cloud engineer, consider people in IT Operations, architecture, networking, or perhaps even cybersecurity. + If the company provides goods and services, what about finding someone who is a customer of that organization? - Ask the customer how their interactions have been with that company just in general. - If the customer works with representatives of a company on a regular basis (i.e. like working with representatives of a technology reseller), it provides insight into the responsibilities of different roles at the company. - Customers who are part of a formal advocacy group for a vendor’s technology solution may have even greater context to share on the roles and responsibilities of people at that vendor and the overall company culture of the vendor. Advocacy program members may also have good relationships with employees at the vendor and could be willing to connect you with someone to have a deeper discussion. - Loving the technology being used at a company (regardless of the role you are seeking) is one sign it might be a nice place to dock your boat (but not the only sign, of course). + Nick thinks we would turn to our immediate professional network first. Hopefully we have kept professional connections warm over time. Ramzi Marjaba had some great suggestions in Episode 307 – Sales Skills: Professional Networking and Continued Practice with Ramzi Marjaba (1/2) even if you haven’t. - If you reach out to someone, be honest about what you’re trying to do and the help you need. All they can say is no. + John realizes he has acted as a harbor pilot to others who have reached out to him in the past. Nick re-iterates that John was his harbor pilot for a particular job in the past. - Several years ago, when John was a harbor pilot for Nick…he referred him, explained the process, shared some of the expectations of the role, etc. But, in this case, Nick was still the captain. - More recently, when people have reached out to John, he has offered to have a conversation with them. John will provide context to the person on the organization, even if the open role is in a different group from where John works. - A harbor pilot might be able to give insight into the skills required for a specific role and how it has changed over time as a result of the company’s direction. Nick refers to this as some of the stuff that might not be in the job description. - John says the words on a job description may mean a very specific thing within the context of a specific organization. When he was at Google, one of the interviews was to determine how “Googly” a person is. It meant something very specific. - To take another example…if a company says it is looking for people who can embrace change, what does that mean for that organization? Does it mean job responsibilities might shift every 6 months, you have a different manager each year, that you might have to relocate, etc.? You need a harbor pilot to tell you. - The harbor pilot has more context on where you’re going. + Nick thinks a great recruiter could be your harbor pilot. He remembers in times past working with excellent recruiters who helped and guided him through every stage of the interview process. + Nick says some of it is going to be determined with how much rapport you have built with the person you want to be your harbor pilot. With good rapport established, people may be willing to introduce you to others they know perhaps without you needing to ask them to introduce you. + John gives the example of having systems engineer in your title. Sometimes you might be contacted by a recruiter for a role with the same name but in an industry that uses the term differently. - In manufacturing, for example, a systems engineer may be responsible for integrating the hardware manufactured with the software. - John will usually take the time to politely explain to a recruiter what his experience has been as a systems engineer (in this case working inside a sales organization) so the person understands the nuance in the role across different industries. Even this exercise builds rapport and could lead to future opportunities down the road from the same recruiter. - Recruiters in California are not allowed to ask candidates about their current salary. In addition to sharing that he is not interested in a role or that its pay range would not be enough to want to change jobs, John can make the recruiter’s life easier by sharing his salary requirements. - “The more vested a recruiter is in landing you, the better…harbor pilot they are going to be…. When they feel like now they’re a little bit more invested in you, that’s when they’ll be way more communicative.” – John White - John has also had recruiters give him additional context about why they reached out to him over others (i.e. a need for specific skills / experience, etc.) which might step beyond what the job description says. The key recommendations from John on this are building rapport, being open and transparent, and continuing with a conversation. + Nick reiterates that we shouldn’t discount our own ability to be the harbor pilot for someone else. - “Wherever you work, whatever you do, whomever you know…you could be this for someone else seeking a job. And perhaps, if you have done that for somebody else and they get the job or they have a good experience…you’ll understand the flip side of that coin.” – Nick Korte, on being the harbor pilot for someone else - John says we might reflect more on it if someone for whom we have been the harbor pilot gives us feedback on their experience and the value we provided along the way.
26:31 – Finding a Harbor Pilot* There are many people who could be a harbor pilot for you, but how do you find them, engage them, and get them to help you? + The harbor pilot has a vested interest in your success. Crashing the ship can also be a poor reflection on them. + We mentioned it earlier, but immediate LinkedIn connections are one option. + Try looking through job descriptions for the top technologies listed as required competencies. - Look for community groups centered on these technologies (on LinkedIn or otherwise) in your area (or even outside your area). Finding and connecting with these community group leaders might be helpful to gain insight as to what types of companies use specific technologies. Community group leaders may even know someone at the company that has the job opening or help you make a connection that could help in some way. - John doesn’t recall looking for a Nutanix User Group or even a virtualization user group when he was interviewing for his role at Nutanix. He could have tapped the community to get their point of view on Nutanix as technology vendor, etc. + If you’re in a role at any company and deal with vendors or technology resellers, try asking them if they have worked with a specific company to get a perspective. Don’t do this using your work e-mail account, of course! - Resellers of a specific technology can speak to interactions they have had with employees of different vendors. - Perhaps the vendor you work with could introduce you to someone they know at a specific company who could help (i.e. someone who would be willing to do an informational interview). We discussed informational interviews with Mike Wood in Episode 169 – A Thoughtful Personal Sabbatical with Mike Wood (2/2). - John has both given and asked for informational interviews in the past. The purpose of them is to gain more information on the company and not an expectation of it being a formal interview with the hiring manager. John tells the story of having a good conversation with a friend of a friend at Nutanix before he joined that was extremely helpful. + Try to think through who to reach out to through the lens of what is most important to you in a job / employer. - Is it company culture, being paid well, great benefits, what managers are like, etc.? Your priorities might help you choose who you know that could speak to these points. GO back to the Must Have List created by the hosts of Real Job Talk. - If you are actively managing your network and genuinely listening to people over time, you will understand what different people in your network care about. If they care about the area you want to know more about, ask them if they know anything about the specific company where you’re interviewing (or even its competitors) that can help you. + John finds the analogy exciting and is starting to view some things we have discussed in the past through a different lens. - We’ve been discussing actively managing your network, reaching out to people, and the importance of getting people to help us navigate situations and organizations. + We spoke about being a harbor pilot for someone else. What if we reverse engineer that situation where we are a harbor pilot to someone else? - Think about the connection the person who reached out had to you. Understanding the connection might help you identify ways to find your own harbor pilot through similar connections. Maybe that’s another outside the box way to help yourself find a harbor pilot. - Be curious as to how people found you and why they reached out if you’re giving an informational interview. - You might have a blog, a podcast, or something in your LinkedIn or social media profile that makes you more approachable because your work is in the public eye. This applies to others you could reach out to for help. - Asking some questions of the people who reach out to you for help will make you a better interviewer and sharpen questioning skills for when you are in a job interview situation. By asking you for help, the person asking is interviewing you. Taking the time to have a conversation allows both them and you to practice interviewing. - One of the best books Nick has read in the last year is called Talk to Me by Dean Nelson. Nelson is a journalist who wrote this book about asking better questions and being a better interviewer. Nelson breaks down popular interviews and the questions asked, and it is fascinating. The concepts discussed in this book apply broadly across many fields. Reading this and internalizing the lessons will make you a better job candidate and a better job interviewer.
36:30 – Wrapping Up* You are the captain. You make the final call, and you have to own the decisions. You should know everything about your ship (as much as can be known) and have a willingness to take advice from the harbor pilot. * Seek expert guidance from a harbor pilot, and have a true collaboration with them. Accept that they are experts at something you can’t be an expert at (your ship at their harbor). * We discussed what the harbor pilot might look like and how to find them. Maybe acting as a harbor pilot for others will help you find a harbor pilot in the future. * In the maritime world, the harbor pilot has to come help the captain of the cruise ship. It’s mandated by law. + In the case of the job seeker, it is going to take some work to get the harbor pilot onboard. It likely will not be given to you. The responsibility and planning have to be there if you truly want a harbor pilot to help you dock.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
How prepared are you for a career emergency like losing a job? Disaster recovery plans for your career, just like troubleshooting, start with good documentation of technical and business accomplishments.
David Klee returns in episode 316 to share the prep work required for building and testing a disaster recovery plan for our careers. You’ll learn how to use David’s technique of looking in the mirror (inside yourself) and out the window (out into the world / greater technical community) to quiet the fear and document and identify transferable skills that can be listed on a resume, on LinkedIn, or shared in a job interview. As we talk through each topic or recommendation, David shares concrete examples from his experience to illustrate how they apply.
Original Recording Date: 01-20-2025
David Klee is a returning guest and the owner and chief architect at Heraflux Technologies. If you missed part 1 of this discussion series with David, check out Episode 315.
Topics – Keep Your Eyes Open with the Mirror and the Window, Accomplishments as Repeatable Processes, Transparent Outcomes and the Hero’s Journey, Avoiding the Cold Start with Prep Work, Testing a Career DR Plan3:28 – Keep Your Eyes Open with the Mirror and the Window* We all have intentions of keeping disaster recovery plans for our careers and lives up to date, but we fall short. + “The tech side is arguably the easier part. DR for the career, especially in this day and age…if you get cut today…what are you going to do? What’s the next step? Are you ready to take an unplanned detour in life? Who do you know? What do you know? What have you done that you can talk about or reference to help you get the next leg up? What have you done that’s so proprietary that you can’t mention a spec of it or it’s so proprietary that it doesn’t transfer out of that job?” – David Klee, on disaster recovery for your career + David talks about his first job in college working for a market research firm. The firm had a platform with its own scripting language that could be used to build websites or surveys. David acted as an intermediary between the team that built the platform and the team that used it. - “I spent three years there. What did I learn? I learned how to script in a language that does not leave that company borders. That’s not a good career builder unless you intend to stay with that company for your entire career, and this is the 2020s. Good luck with that.” – David Klee - John says this could be something we could ask about in an interview. A company is basically asking for an employee to be a captive of that group because of the proprietary nature of the language. David says in most cases like this an employee will not know it until they are in the situation. - "It takes keeping your eyes open…no matter how much you enjoy your job…is the captivity of this job worth it? Is there job security? Do I enjoy what I’m doing? Am I growing, or am I just moving laterally? What’s worth it? " – David Klee - In this job at the market research firm, they found out David was a good troubleshooter, and they wanted him to fix bugs on the platform others had built. Even when David proposed that it would be faster to rebuild the platform on newer versions of software, they insisted he focus on patching the existing platform. * What does David mean by keeping your eyes open? + “Keeping your eyes open involves looking at yourself in a mirror. And then, look out the window.” – David Klee + David says to look in the mirror we should think about what we want to do, what we enjoy doing, and what we do and don’t like about our current job. + Early in his career, he wanted to break out of just being an IT worker. He wanted to be a business driver rather than part of a cost center. - “Look at your value to the business. Am I there just keeping the lights on? And what about that do you enjoy?” – David Kleep + Looking out the window involves thinking about what you’re doing, what you’re getting paid, and how much you’re appreciated by the business. What are you doing that can be transferred to another business of any size, and how much satisfaction of doing your current job would be retained in making a move? - “You don’t have a lot of answers when you’re just starting out, but that’s where you start talking to people. Find people in that area of any specialty, be it IT or whatever, that you enjoy, and there’s probably a community around it. I got lucky. I found the SQL Server community in 2008…. Here’s a room of 50 other people that enjoy the same exact thing. This is cool, and I can talk about it with them.” – David Klee - Someone David knew well started a SQL Server user group in Omaha, Nebraska. David found out about the group and was there for the very first meeting. - David got to know the community around a specific technology. He would ask people where they work, what they did each day, what they did and did not like about their job, what they wished they could do more of, etc. - “You’re getting paid twice as much…interesting. So, there’s less that I don’t like in that role. There’s more of the stuff that I like, and your company gives you time to focus on the stuff that you like to do. Ok, let’s talk. Who do you know, and do you have an opening in your company? …or, I’m not there yet qualification-wise to be able to get that job, but hey, you do this stuff day in and day out. What can I do to learn more? What can I do to push myself? If the company that I’m at is just focused on keeping the lights on, what can I do on the side to grow? …it’s that want to grow and do more that not everybody has…. How can I learn everything that I need to know to go beyond an IT Operations lightkeeper kind of role? What can I do to help the company see the value in IT to invest further in it?” – David Klee, giving examples of what we might talk to others about at a community meeting - David considers himself a lifelong learn who wants to know as much about everything as he possibly can.
9:41 – Accomplishments as Repeatable Processes* David talked about being a cost center compared to being a business driver. John says at the individual contributor level, the delineation may come down to what you’re working on. + Are the systems for the company or a specific product that is customer facing? + David says think about how much money the business makes per day because you kept a system up and running. - When David worked for a performing arts center, he saw the business need for improvement in volunteer management for each show. David also wanted to learn how to program in .NET and took it upon himself to build a volunteer management system. He knew nothing about .NET and worked on this project outside of his normal work week to beat the deadline for the next season opening. - “I built a volunteer management system. It integrated with the ticketing system. The house managers could hit a button, open a show directly from the ticketing system. It pre-filled and populated everything. They had templates for all the positions they needed…. The first week it went live it saved 55 staff hours between 2 people. That was cool…. That’s the resume builder right there, and that actually enabled me to get my next job…. That’s the resume builder because not only did you learn a tech skill…but it showed that you can think about the business and not just a tech feature.” – David Klee, describing the outcome of his work building a new volunteer management system - John emphasizes the need for quantification so the next person looking to hire you can understand your value to the organization. Saving that many staff hours per performance translates to dollars. David says this allowed 2 people working 80-hour weeks to work only 50 hours per week. * Nick highlights an irony. Many companies do not have enough systems documentation to troubleshoot effectively when there is a problem. When we are applying for a job, we need documentation that indicates our expertise level to be deemed competent enough to go and work on a system which a company may not have documented well. But, if we do not document our own experience well, we have a problem! + We have to be able to prove our competence and experience to another company. We might be able to succeed in a technical interview by answering questions, but we need proof of our expertise. + Companies may want us to do and not document, but around performance review time documentation becomes critically important. This is at odds with the overall culture as it relates to documentation. + “And the documentation onus is on you. They’ll never give you the time to document your successes because they don’t want you to jump ship and bring that list of successes with you. So it’s on you. How much time do you have nights and weekends to keep up on this stuff? You have to make the time.” – David Klee, on documenting our accomplishments / successes + How detailed should the list of our own successes / accomplishments be? - David says it should be detailed enough to make it repeatable, keeping in mind we cannot take proprietary information from a company. - David says the knowledge of building a volunteer management system has stuck with him over time. He has built web applications ever since. - “The framework has changed. The foundation has changed. But the knowledge of how to take a business challenge, justify and quantify the impact of solving it technically, implementing it, and then measuring the outcome…if you can document that, that’s what you need for the proof…. What did you do and why did you do it? Give me 3 sentences on how you did it and then tell me the outcome.” – David Klee, on documenting accomplishments + According to Nick, getting the refined outcome statement for your resume for an interview takes writing down your accomplishments a couple of different times. Document everything in a brain dump format, refine it a time or too, and pull out those impact statements that are most relevant for a specific role. - David says we have to make the time to do it so we can stand out. He also shares the kinds of questions he asks a current mentee. - The guy David is mentoring mentioned he had built a web application to help track household finances. It was a PHP front end with a SQL Server back end that ran in his home test lab. QuickBooks may have been easier, but David’s mentee wanted the experience of building the application himself. - When asked how much time it took, David’s mentee said it took him longer than it probably should have, but he wanted to learn how everything worked. David will often give his mentee new ideas for things to explore, and the mentee will spend his weekends tinkering. - “The tech side of this is easy. Even just a lateral move in the business…how do you justify that you’re going to actually solidify a business need to fill a role? If it’s a promotion, how do you justify that? You have to keep track of those.” – David Klee - David gives examples of the outcomes of some of his consulting work – saving an airline over 30 million dollars in database licensing, added 500 million dollars to the valuation of an electric vehicle startup, worked with 4 of the 10 largest hedge funds in the world, migrated 140 terabyte SQL Server database across the country in 18 seconds, etc. - To go back one step, David has multiple sets of documents – business accomplishments and technical accomplishments, stressing that these are two different things. He spends one Saturday morning per month making notes on his accomplishments. - “And to be able to just rattle that off and say…we did that, and we can do it again. Not only did we have a good outcome with it, but we documented the process. It’s a repeatable process…. Anybody at that company could follow that process and not call me again to do that. And I’m happy for that.” – David Klee, speaking to the success of migrating a very large SQL Server database which came from not only doing it but training people at the company to do it next time - The above migration / process or recipe can easily be applied in a quick, useful way to help another company.
18:37 – Transparent Outcomes and the Hero’s Journey* David shares the story of one of the most successful troubleshooting experiences that came from a SQL Server migration project with a 2-week timeline to get it onto new hardware after the SQL Server had been running for 8 years. There was no documentation of the environment, and no one at that company who had tried the migration previously could figure it out. + “We got this running 3 hours and 10 minutes into a 4-hour maintenance window. I didn’t sleep for a day after that because I was so jacked from nerves. But it worked. And the next morning, because I couldn’t sleep…I’m on a laptop on the couch documenting every single thing that I did and took all the screenshots that I’d been taking through the entire time, stitched them together, and built them a how-to document. They didn’t ask me to do it…but they now have the how-to for how to do this again down the road…. Nobody there had bothered to look into why the system stayed up and running those 8 years.” – David Klee, recounting a very difficult troubleshooting exercise + Because David knew infrastructure and coding, he was able to dig into all the right areas to make the project a success. + David documented the technical outcome and the business outcome from the troubleshooting session. He also did a post-mortem to explain why the business should have invested time and resources to understand that system before they attempted a migration. He also recommended they re-write a specific application because they no longer had the source code. + Nick says the technical and business outcomes David generated from his brain dump are evidence that he’s a good troubleshooter. + “The hilarious thing is that at the end of the day, for the business, nothing changed. That platform that they used thousands of times a second was still up and running, so literally sometimes the business outcome is transparent. To be able to tout that to the right people, they get it. But to the non-seasoned recruiter, they don’t know. So, you have to be able to spin that…. You don’t have to embellish anything, but you have to know what to bring to the surface to get them to actually understand the significance of what you’re talking about.” – David Klee * John wonders if the right outcome for the business is that nothing went wrong? + David says this is how he got into virtualization. Nothing went wrong when he moved systems for the performing arts center from physical to virtual during a time when tickets were on sale. Not crashing was the success. + In other cases, database migrations for large companies have been minimizing downtime and disruption of the business (i.e. fitting into a tight maintenance window). Technical outcomes in these situations were things like completing a database upgrade, moving to newer hardware, successful patching, reducing future problems, etc. The business cares about uptime alone. * A business might not understand a system is critical because of underinvestment, and they may not see the value of the system’s uptime as a result. When someone puts forth a ton of effort to reduce downtime for a specific system, people might not care because they don’t know. + David doesn’t have it in him to let problems / systems crash and burn. Not everyone operates at this level of moral standard. + John says a business demonstrates what is and is not important based on budget, time, and attention. It’s difficult as an employee to go on a hero’s journey and fix a problem (potentially sacrificing mental and physical wellbeing) for no recognition. - “I’m with you to a point. But at the same time, if the hero’s journey to fix something for no recognition means I’ve grown as a technologist with a transferable and portable set of skills that will elevate my next step, is it worth it? And in some cases no and in some cases yeah. That volunteer management system at the performing arts center…that was 600 hours of work in 4 months outside of an 80 hour a week job. That was a lot. But that skill showed that I can build tools to solve business problems. It gave me a more modern framework to implement that skill, and it gave me an industry standard means to demonstrate it. Maybe I’m a glutton for punishment and a workaholic, so I come at this from a rather jaded perspective. But if your home situation and family situation allows you to do it for bursts, I claim it’s worth it. You don’t have to do it all day every day for 25 years, but to do it in bursts to hit a marker that you give to yourself…you’re not running an ultra-marathon by training for 20 minutes a week. There’s work that comes along with it, and there is sacrifice in a lot of this stuff because the knowledge isn’t just going to pop into your head. And work’s not going to give you the time to learn this stuff. They’re just not…not unless you have a truly special organization…. You’ve got to push yourself. It pushes your career. It pushes your ability to prepare.” – David Klee
27:25 – Avoiding the Cold Start with Prep Work* What if the business you work for goes under / goes out of business? What will you do tomorrow? David says this has to be in our minds. From a business and technology perspective what do we do? How can we make the next step easier? + Nick thinks we would need to know - Where all documented accomplishments are (if that’s been completed) - Who to call and network with about job prospects - Understand / have a tight handle on our finances + “It’s a hard one, and that goes back to the loop of personal troubleshooting and documentation. Say you do a job for 5 years. Your last day on the job…are you going to remember all the accomplishments that you had during that 5-year tenure? No. Are you going to remember that monthly? Sure. Take a Saturday morning. Sit there with a good cup of coffee or something, and just write. Throw it in a Word document. Throw it in Dropbox or OneDrive or wherever…. It doesn’t have to be pretty…. What did you enjoy? What wins did you have? What problems did you solve? What did you learn? What did you do for the business? What did the business do for you? If the business did something cool for you and you liked it, maybe that’s a pre-requisite for hiring at your next job. A couple of the companies I worked for…they were nice enough to send me to some conferences. I learned a ton. Document it. Take the time. Yeah, it’s time out of your week. It’s not fun. It’s not enjoyable. But at the same time, it gives you a foundation to say, ‘I did this.’ And if you’re looking for another role, and if it’s a role dissimilar to what you’re doing today, how can you adapt what you’ve done to the new industry or the new role or the new vertical? And that’s a hard one for people to wrap their brain around. All this stuff applies. You just have to spin it the right way.” – David Klee - David shares that his brother finished a career as a music teacher at a high school and became a police officer. Transferable skills were things like working with crowds, training and educating, getting people to work together, etc. - David mentions a friend who worked for a database monitoring company and built software and tooling for that company. This friend later moved to the financial sector. Though the database being monitored might be different, the framework and the foundation for documentation / monitoring / quality assurance testing / user acceptance testing all still applies. * John says the typical scenario is someone losing their job and needing to come from a cold start. The person has done no disaster recovery planning and needs to run their disaster recovery plan. + “Clear your mind, and start thinking. Give me the top 5 things about the current job that you really enjoyed, and then make a beeline and run…. If you like infrastructure, look to see who’s hiring in your town. Look for those user groups…. It doesn’t take more than a meeting or two if you’re comfortable around people to actually get to know some of these folks…. Dig in your heels. Get yourself out of your comfort zone and go to these things and start talking to people.” – David Klee + David mentions meetup.com and the Azure Data Community as great places to find technical user groups. Don’t rule out business user groups as well because it doesn’t have to be tech focused. + David says we don’t have to be way out of our comfort zone to say hello to someone at a user group, tell them what you do, and ask what they do. + Nick says we can even ask people if there is someone they know that we should meet. + “The worst thing you can do is nothing. Nothing will not move you forward. Even a basic conversation, if nothing else comes from it, you’ve still talked to somebody. You’ve still got a connection now.” – David Klee * John says many of us have critiqued an employer for a lack of disaster recovery planning or business continuity planning, but at the same time, we haven’t done that same kind of planning for our own careers. We have to take accountability for that in our own lives. + “Nobody is going to hand you a new career or a job promotion on a silver platter…. It just doesn’t happen. And for all of the folks that sit around waiting and they just think that better things are around the corner…the odds are, if you don’t push, better things are not around the corner. It may not be any worse, but it’s probably not going to be any better Career paths in IT with a company that’s willing to invest in you are rare these days. They want you to do a job, and that’s what you’re there to do. There’s not a track for promotion or advancement. So, the convention in the US is to quit your job and find a better one to get that promotion. I hate to say it. I’d love to have career paths. It just doesn’t really exist all over the place, so it’s on you. What are you doing?” – David Klee + For David, his action was going independent and working for himself. It gives him the freedom to select technologies that have business value and learn them to the depth of being able to tell other people how to use them. This choice (business ownership) allows him to be flexible and change direction when needed. + If the world changes or shifts, we can pivot our careers. David was an infrastructure admin who became a software developer, a database administrator, a consultant, and a consulting firm owner / nerd of all trades. + “You can pivot, and it all just builds. And that list of accomplishments, that prep that you’ve done to build the foundation to make essentially disaster recovery for your career easier. Failing over a database to a different site that’s already been replicated is a right-click go kind of operation. If you’ve pigeon-holed 20 years of your life on a system that is totally proprietary and non-transferable, what are you going to do?” – David Klee + David tells the story of a friend from one of his first jobs who was laid off after 25 years of working on proprietary systems. The friend had not done the prep for career disaster recovery. It took 7 months to figure out what to do after that for a job with half the pay. - “The prep wasn’t there. It drives me nuts because the prep needed to be there.” – David Klee, commenting on the lack of preparedness of a friend who was laid off
35:47 – Testing a Career DR Plan* Even for those of us who agree we need a DR plan for our career or have some form of one, what elements might we not be thinking about? What are some of the unknown unknowns? + David says if we were to take our company’s IT systems and fail to DR right now, something will not work because of an undocumented change, a software update, etc. + “No DR strategy is perfect unless you test it, and who wants to test a career DR strategy? …It goes back to…can you troubleshoot? Can you identify the things that are missing now that you’ve failed over and what isn’t working? …Go through the feedback loop. Can you improve and clean up and fix? And, arguably, don’t make it equal to where you came from. Make it better. Because then, the bar has now risen, and it’s just an uphill climb after that. There’s no downhill slide.” – David Klee + The only way Nick can think of to test a career DR plan is to follow the documented plan you have to see how fast you could get an interview and into the final round. - David says even if you’re content where you are, go look for another job. If you get an offer, that’s a pretty good DR plan if the job you looked for is something you want. If you try this and can’t make it past sending in a resume, you have a safety net because you do not have to leave your current job. - “You can start to look at the mirror. What am I not doing that’s making me less marketable to these folks? And that’s a hard pill to swallow…. If you’re not intent on leaving your current job, there’s really no harm in it….” – David Klee - Nick cautions about burning bridges. If you are going to interview for a role, really consider it. Be kind and courteous to recruiters and the people you speak to during the process, especially if you have to turn down an offer. - David says if you have a job and you’re looking for a new one, there is nothing wrong with taking a job that will better your situation. - “There’s a certain number of hoops you have to jump through to get a job. Have you even written a resume recently? Have you written a cover letter if you think that’s necessary? Have you submitted a job application and gotten a recruiter to call you back? …And, have you been able to get past that…recruiter screen to get to talk to whatever the next level is…? And if you are consistently getting to hurdle 5, maybe you don’t need to worry…. The vast majority of people don’t even start because they think about that last hurdle – what if they offer me somehting and then I need to make a decision about whether to leave or not? Well, that’s not the situation that you’re facing yet.” – John White - John mentions chats with hiring managers, skip level leaders, vice president level personnel, and even technical presentations as hurdles and levels in the interview process / road to getting a new job. Not taking that first step in the process is the mistake everyone is making. + As a consultant, David does consistent job interviews (5-10 times per week probably). He’s had a lot of practice. - “It takes some experience, so start the process. Because if you are just jittery, nervous, can’t speak a sentence to these folks…how are you going to make it to that next level? How are you going to get to the point where they’re extending you an offer? It’s hard. It takes time. It takes experience. It takes a feedback loop of improvement in yourself to understand how to approach those things. And I’m not saying just interview to waste somebody’s time, but if you are seriously looking, interview for things that may be tangential to what you’re interested in in the hopes that they may actually be better, a better fit, a better path…because the more experience you have with it the better.” – David Klee, on interviewing - David got a job as a database administrator (DBA) because he knew a lot about infrastructure and had some SQL Server experience. They made him a DBA, and David really enjoyed it. + A business doesn’t refuse to investigate disaster recovery because the disaster recovery target might be better than the existing infrastructure and present a difficult decision. John reminds us that people make similar statements about their career disaster recovery every day. - “If the poop hits the fan, what would you do today? What would you do tomorrow? What would you do next week? What professional network have you built up? What proof do you have in the industry of what you’ve actually accomplished? Who can you call to vouch for you? They always ask for references. What can you do? What can you reference? What can’t you reference? What can you make veiled allusions to? …I hate the phrase ‘brand awareness…’ but to have visibility and verifiable proof that you’ve actually done something – that’s powerful. You need to have that, and it goes back to the prep. Push the fear aside. That’s the hardest part. A lot of folks are afraid of the end result. A lot of folks are afraid of the process. A lot of folks are afraid of the act of change…because it puts you out of your comfort zone.” – David Klee - John thinks all of these fears are stand-ins that prevent us from facing the fear that losing our position is a very real possibility. Facing this fear of the possibility of losing your job could produce crippling indecision too, so people decide not to think about it (the worst thing you can do for disaster recovery). + David takes us back to that SQL Server User Group meeting in 2008 and says back then he did not like speaking in front of a crowd. He would help coordinate things from time to time but was always the guy in the back. - People at the user group knew the kind of work David did each day, but he didn’t think much about it as something to share in a presentation. In 2010, they decided to hold a SQL Saturday event in Omaha. - When a speaker backed out at the last minute, one of the leaders asked David to speak on SQL Server virtualization instead. David agreed to do the presentation and really enjoyed it. - There was someone sitting in the back of lthe room during David’s presentation that day, and it just so happened to be the author of SQL in a Nutshell Kevin Kline. Kevin e-mailed David 6 months later to ask him to co-present on the same topic at a very large conference. - In November 2011, David delivered his first big technical presentation at the conference. - “I figured there’d be 30, 40 people in the room. No. They closed the doors 30 minutes before the presentation because they hit the 500-person fire marshal limit. And we give an hour-and-a-half presentation in front of a packed room, and it turns out his role in the presentation was to be comic relief between sections and he wanted me to give 95% of the presentation. That was, right there, what let me get into consulting for myself…. That was the thing that showed that this thing that I leaned how to do on my own is something that not everybody could do, and it gave me te confidence to be able to run with it – both from a tech presentation perspective and a career perspective and literally make it work…. It was a topic that I knew. It was the unknown knowns. And from telling people about it I had the experience of being able to share it in a way that they could understand even though the topic was foreign to them back then. And it worked. It clicked. I would say that was the career disaster recovery to a better infrastructure. Things just skyrocketed after that. I spoke at 118 SQL Saturdays after that. It set the awareness in the community of what I could do so that in 2013 when I went independent as a consultant…we got our first customer day 3 all from somebody seeing me at a SQL Saturday event talking about this topic…. So unbelievably cool…it’s everything that accidentally came together in the whole career DR except I would say this was a proactive career failover for disaster preparedness…. We’ve been in business now 11.5 years…. I look at tomorrow. Where do I need to add stuff to the career? Where do I need to add more awareness to any of this stuff? Where do I need to be so that if the world shifts in a year, I’m ready? Every day I look at the mirror. You have to…because if you don’t, you’re going to be caught off guard. It’s the last spot you want to be in both for you and your family.” – David Klee - David still has the photo from that conference that someone took looking from the stage to the audience during his session. - David put himself in a position to be lucky by going deep in multiple areas, sharing his work, and learning in public. - “That one presentation in 2011 was 12 years in the works.” – David Klee, on all the events that led to the presentation that changed everything…or as John says, David became an overnight success 12 years later - David’s business is still running strong despite the pandemic, and he doesn’t have to market. The work comes to him because of the brand awareness he developed. For this, he is very thankful. And the accomplishments are documented in the public eye. * To follow up on this conversation with David: + Visit davidklee.net or heraflux.com (the home site of David’s consultancy, Heraflux Technologies). + You can also contact David on LinkedIn.
Mentioned in the Outro* Can you see the loop of personal troubleshooting and documentation now? After listening back to this discussion with David, Nick was reminded of Episode 284 – Draft Your Narrative: Writing and Building a Technical Portfolio with Jason Belk (2/2). We never used the word narrative in this discussion, but that’s what we’re building by doing the documentation. Documentation is an input to having a narrative in the first place. + We have to take the time to do the documentation of our accomplishments to avoid the cold start situation of needing a job having done no prep work. + There were so many questions David suggested we think through as we document. + David says we’re documenting repeatable processes. But it turns out the documentation process itself is a repeatable process that we can use for our work solving a problem and for our accomplishments. * After listening to this, is the documentation of your technical and business accomplishments up to date so you can share them in interview discussions, promotion discussions, and even in conversation in community groups? + Look in the mirror and out the window, and find the communities that can help you learn! * Special thanks to David on suggesting the topic and collaborating with us to create a create a great discussion. If you have an idea, please e-mail us or contact us on LinkedIn. Let’s collaborate and create a great show!
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
Can writing documentation beef up your troubleshooting skills?
This week in episode 315 David Klee returns to explore the connection between effective troubleshooting and documentation. We’ll discuss appropriate levels of detail for documentation and explore it as a skill building exercise. Listen closely to hear why good documentation can make all the difference in a regulatory compliance audit as well as in emergency situations. Also, we’ll talk through some interview questions you can ask to determine the value of good documentation within an organization.
Original Recording Date: 01-20-2025
Topics – An Exploration of Troubleshooting, Pre-requisites for Effective Troubleshooting, What Should Be Documented, Forms of Documentation and Emergency Preparedness, Interview Questions and Employer Perceptions2:32 – An Exploration of Troubleshooting* David Klee is a returning guest and the owner and chief architect at Heraflux Technologies. If you missed the previous discussions with David, you can find them below: + Episode 119 – Tinkering into Specialty with David Klee (1/2) + Episode 120 – A Time to Build with David Klee (2/2) + Episode 309 – The Consulting Life: Managing Travel and Becoming a Better Communicator with David Klee (1/2) + Episode 310 – Finding a Better Way: Contracting, Independence, and a Consultant’s Reputation with David Klee (2/2) * David approached us about an idea for another topic to explore. After many years in the industry (11 of them as a business owner), David began to think about patterns he has seen and what has made him and many others successful. + “What has actually made this work? And it’s the art and the science and the luck of troubleshooting…. What makes some of the best technologists arguably some of the best troubleshooters in the world, and then how do you apply that to life? …There’s a lot more than just knowing a technical feature or two or being able to Google faster than the person next to you. I have a lot of fun with this topic.” – David Klee, framing our discussion * Philosophically, David believes troubleshooting is as much an art as it is a science. There is a foundation one needs to be a good troubleshooter, and David tells us this stems from our childhood curiosity about why things do what they do. + David tells the story of learning to use a screwdriver at age 5, taking the family’s VCR apart, and successfully putting it back together again (which may or may not have landed him in trouble). + Over time some people have a constant need to know why something is what is / why it works the way it does. David sees this present in some people but not all people. + “When you look at those that are truly great at an industry…they want to know why, and they don’t stop until they know why.” – David Klee + David mentions the Dunning-Kruger Effect, which speaks to breaking up the things we know and don’t know into 4 quadrants: - Unknown unknowns are the things that get people into trouble because they think they know these but do not - Known unknowns – David considers this area enlightenment in IT and a way to know where the boundaries are - “Unknown knowns are the things that I consider you a master at a technology or a topic of anything because what you know becomes so integrated into your frame of reference and your being that you don’t know that you know it. You just do it. And, when you hit that point of a mastery of something…you may not be able to explain how you do it or you may not be able to tell somebody the steps to do it. But it’s just muscle memory. It’s just go. You do, and it works…. The truly good educators are the ones that can actually take what they know and dial it to the level of the people that they’re talking to. Some experts cannot do that, but they are so good at what they do. Others can. It’s fascinating…. It’s the unknown unknowns that gets people into trouble. It’s the unknown knowns that really separates people.” – David Klee - We did not mention known knowns, but it would be the final quadrant. + John says it’s the idea that you can master a skill or process but not have mastery of teaching or explaining that skill or process. Doing ang teaching could overlap, but they do not always overlap. - David comes from a family of teachers, actually. His parents were traveling road musicians who fell into education, but they have always continued some sort of musical pursuit on their own. - “It’s neat…to be able to explain to somebody how something works and why. I love it.” – David Klee + When Nick thinks about troubleshooting, he thinks about both high pressure and low-pressure situations when we’re trying to figure out why something is not doing what it’s supposed to do. - David says we’re trying to determine why there is an unexpected outcome and what we need to do to get to the expected outcome. - “It’s a formal methodology or informal methodology for understanding why something does not have an expected outcome and working through the process that is an iterative process – either elimination or identification. And you end up with essentially identification, review, remediate, rinse and repeat until you get the desired outcome. That’s about as formal of a definition as I can give you.” – David Klee - John thinks this may disguise the art in the troubleshooting process of knowing what issues may be more likely than others. - People might discover something is not working and change 10 things. If something then starts working again, how do we know which change (or combination of changes) actually resolved the problem? We are far less likely to undo the changes once something begins working again. + John mentions being good at troubleshooting in areas in which he has lost the fear of something going wrong. - While John feels comfortable troubleshooting computer systems and software, he’s not good at troubleshooting car problems due to limited knowledge and a feeling of high stakes. Someone with a better knowledge of cars may perceive the stakes to be far lower when making a recommendation for fixing problems. - David says it depends on what you are troubleshooting. There is a risk qualification element that needs to be considered with the process used in troubleshooting. - David shares the example of troubleshooting a payment processing system with a group of folks who didn’t know what they didn’t know. The process they had developed to troubleshooting ran the risk of preventing payment processing for the entire company. David describes determining the need to speak to the group of people who built the system in order to troubleshoot the system safely.
11:43 – Pre-requisites for Effective Troubleshooting* Nick mentions we highlighted a pre-requisite for troubleshooting being knowledge of the systems we’re troubleshooting. What is the correlation between how good a troubleshooter one can be and how well one knows the systems involved in troubleshooting? + If we know our systems well, we know what is / is not possible within a given set of constraints. One example is knowing the ramifications of changing different database settings. + “You know what’s going to happen because you know the platform and you know your environment, and you know how they come together. If you know this stuff you can resolve these issues a whole lot quicker.” – David Klee + Knowledge of the platform and environment would mean we know the systems which interact with the one we are troubleshooting, the impact of the outage, the right person to call for help, and the questions you need to ask them. + It can be much harder when you inherit a system someone else built and no documentation on why it was set up the way it was or how other systems communicate with it. Likely you also don’t know what types of changes have been made to it over time (whether they were band aid type fixes or some other kind). + John mentions we’re highlighting domain knowledge of a system and its specific failure modes combined with what has happened in the past to diagnose and fix those things. A resilient system should have these things documented. - David says the flip side of this is being someone coming in from the outside who has never seen this machine before. Think about the scenario in which you are asked to troubleshoot a system which people with all the domain knowledge can’t fix. As a consultant he runs into this pretty regularly. It can be challenging, but David says it keeps him sharp. - Someone troubleshooting a system like this has to keep track of what’s already been done, what should have been done, and what questions need to be asked to extract domain knowledge from others when information hasn’t been documented. - One must also know the platform well enough to successfully understand a system’s current state (which might be different than what people tell you). - “Perception of a system’s state might be entirely different than the reality of the system’s state. That’s a hard, hard art to master right there.” – David Klee + John says someone who doesn’t know a system may have a better chance of doing effective diagnosis. The person who knows a system well is going to make assumptions someone who doesn’t know a system would likely not make (i.e. the database is running great, etc.). - David stresses the importance of quantifying performance when we’re troubleshooting. Preconceived notions about an environment might lead to subjective explanations. - When he walks into an environment to troubleshoot a problem, David wants to look at the raw data. This data can help provide the true nature of a system’s state and perhaps prevent finger pointing between teams. - “Show me the data. Show me why you think this. And most of the time, people cannot produce that data.” – David Klee - Even trend information on how past issues of a specific kind were resolved counts as data and may provide a nice starting point for troubleshooting. - David tells the story of a database administrator and a storage administrator getting into a shouting match over a specific problem. Each of them wanted to be right, but neither had data to back up their claims. In the end, both were right – the problem was somewhere in between the database and the storage in the network and operation system layers. Listen as David describes it in detail. - “But it’s ‘I’m right. You’re wrong.’ There was no ‘I understand that my telemetry is showing me this, but your telemetry is showing you something different.’ Put the data together, and draw a line between them. It’s the why is this showing 2 different things.” – David Klee on troubleshooting telemetry data from different systems
18:29 – What Should Be Documented* What type of documentation would be helpful to have in situations like the one David described (the network and database administrators getting into an argument)? + David says it would have been ideal to have a diagram of the entire environment that highlights the data communication flow between systems. + “If we were able to literally have every single hop there, then you essentially start at both ends, and you start collecting the data until you meet in the middle. If you know the pieces involved, you can collect the system state and the telemetry behind it. That’s the easy part. You just have to know how to draw that line.” – David Klee + Should each hop in the flow of data be instrumented from the beginning or only when there is a problem? - David says you need data to baseline for good performance, and when there is a problem, you have to compare the telemetry for each part of the path to that of the baseline. - David feels like he spends 25% of his week benchmarking and baselining things for people and has developed methodologies for different types of systems across technology stacks. - “How can you tell me it’s running slow if we don’t know how it was running when everything is fine? You have no objectivity to gauge it’s slow.” – David Klee + John highlights the challenges of diagramming these types of systems or applications. We need to represent physical connections, virtual connections, and even API calls for example. There are many layers involved, each of which can change. - David thinks of a system he might be troubleshooting as an ecosystem rather than something static. He gives the example of a desktop computer and how a single software update can change everything. - “To me it’s document what’s in your domain. Document it the best you can. Imagine you get hit by the beer truck, and somebody else has to come along and follow you…. I want you to know everything there is to know about why this machine was setup the way it was, what it took to get this thing running stable including custom tweaks, the raw architecture behind it, the configuration, everything I can possibly think of…mostly because I’m probably going to be the one to upgrade this thing in 4 or 5 or 6 years. I want to know – what did I do to stabilize this thing? Why is it setup the way it’s setup? And if somebody else needs to come along and support this…” – David Klee, on the purpose of good documentation - David gets calls from customers during problem situations asking why certain configurations were made, and when this happens, he will send them the same, extremely thorough set of documents he produced and shared with them when the system was originally built. - David has high expectations for what good looks like when it comes to documentation. The output from a SQL Server and infrastructure health check provided to customers will be around 250 pages on average. The spirit behind this is so customers have the what and the why. * David highlights some big successes from producing thorough documentation for customers. + David’s company saved a customer over $30 million in SQL Server licensing because of effective tuning, and due to this work, the firm later won a massive SQL Server migration project as a result. - “They liked the documentation. They liked the why and not just the what.” – David Klee, on thorough systems documentation as a differentiator of his business * John says people often don’t want to document things for the next person, but many times the next person who comes along is you 6 months later. + These things need to be documented well or perhaps put into a knowledge management system. + David documents things so he isn’t forced to recall them from memory months or years in the future. He could be documenting a quick change or something that took 40 hours to find in the process of solving a problem. When making a change to something weird or nuanced, David will document it and make sure he and his customers have multiple copies of it. + “There are things all over the place with the kind of tuning that I do. If you didn’t know it was there, you’d have no clue. You’d just have weird symptoms here or there, but these things are so nuanced.” – David Klee * How can we balance thorough documentation with the need to make progress and not impede it? + An organization has to be on board and allow technologists the time to document properly. If this doesn’t happen, the entire IT organization suffers. The technologists who made changes to solve a problem will forget what they did very quickly when forced to move on to the next fire immediately. + “I think that’s why I run into a lot of the states that I do out there…. Something broke. Nobody’s had the time to think about it or look at it or document it or review it…. Here, you figure it out.” – David Klee
25:25 – Forms of Documentation and Emergency Preparedness* Is the documentation we’re talking about something kept in a change control system, a wiki, and asset management system, or just some large document somewhere? + If enough history is provided, David tells us the format doesn’t matter. + Some places use a formalized change control process with tickets and platforms like ServiceNow. It’s a process that works for those organizations. + Some organizations treat infrastructure as code and leverage JIRA tickets for tracking changes. + “As long as I have a list of what has changed and when and why and a reference document that shows why the system is configured the way it I, any nonstandard change, any reason why the system is in use, anything. What’s it talking to? What’s placed on it? What firewall exclusions, routes…? If I have that, I know 90% of what I need. It’s that last 10% that’s always…specific to a given machine. But if I know the why, the what, and the where…you can figure out the how.” – David Klee * Make sure your documentation is retrievable even if a system or platform or datacenter is offline! David has one customer who prints out the documentation once per month and puts it into a fireproof safe to take one example. + There are many ways to ensure the documentation is retrievable in a critical situation. We need to make sure it’s available offsite somewhere (digital or printed copy). + Who should have access to the documentation? - David says more than one person for sure. Things can happen to people like getting hit by a beer truck or being in a natural disaster. - “If you have one copy…single point of failure; I don’t believe in that. Two, three, four copies – park it on a USB drive at a bank deposit box. Park it in a public cloud that key members of IT can get into. The odds that that goes down…slim.” – David Klee - Nick mentions the access to documentation (i.e. the run books) would need to be part of onboarding and offboarding new team members. + David tells the story of helping a trucking company build a DR plan several years ago. The company was in tornado alley and had around 800 virtual machines. Due to regulations in the trucking industry, there is a requirement for constant telemetry feeding back to corporate systems from the trucks themselves. - “I don’t believe in just testing a handful of pieces of DR every once in a while. We fail over and run from DR for 1 week out of every month…. They fail over the first Friday night of the month. They fail back on the second Friday of the month. Half of IT gets off the 3rd Friday of the month, and the other half gets off the last Friday of the month. I think it’s great. They love it…. Anybody in the room can fail over the entire company with the run books that are provided and maintained by every member of IT.” – David Klee, speaking to a DR plan for a company he helped architect - In this scenario, the company’s CIO chooses 4 random members of IT staff who cannot be part of the DR exercise (i.e. simulating that they died). If any member of the team has to call one of those 4 team members during the fail over or fail back, the DR exercise fails. - The company we’re talking about not only says they have DR. They demonstrate it to insurance companies and auditors, and their insurance is much less as a result. The full failover to / from DR takes about 43 minutes. The process took about a year to get right because of so many moving parts, but it works very well. * How detailed should a company’s disaster recovery or business continuity plan be for the purpose of audits? + David says there are varying degrees of detail. Some auditors may be checking a box, only looking for backups and offsite copies of data. + Good auditors would ask to see the detailed process of how things failed over and how long it took. + Some companies do disaster recovery and only fail over one system (maybe even without all the dependencies). + “The good auditors are the ones that ask how long, when, not just what. Those are the auditors that most people in IT hate.” – David Klee + David shares the story of a database administrator friend of his who was, in an audit, asked about the disaster recovery process and if he could demonstrate it. - The auditor then noticed a 400-page book about SQL Server backup and recovery that David’s friend had written. - David’s friend mentioned the book was the genericized process, but he then produced a specific document of the process at that specific company. It answered the auditor’s questions in 5 minutes.
33:12 – Interview Questions and Employer Perceptions* John is wondering if we may have uncovered some good screening questions for job applicants to use in interviews related to this topic. + We could ask about the company’s knowledge management strategy, the way they document how systems work, or the level of importance placed on documenting disaster recovery / failover processes. + David says the employer should have an immediate answer for this. If they don’t, it’s a red flag and may mean you are the one who has to do whatever it takes to get stuff up and running again. + Different parts of the business might document things in different ways (all of which could be effective), and processes might have different levels of importance when it comes to business resilience. John gives the example of documenting an employee onboarding process and where that ranks in overall priority compared to other things. + David shares the story of a company whose disaster recovery plan includes helping the families of the IT professionals who need to engage because of an emergency situation. This includes transportation, housing, and much more. * What types of questions might David ask a prospective job candidate on this topic? + David would ask how someone documents why something works. + David also asks for a 5-minute technical presentation covering a facet of what they are working on and why they enjoy it. + “It’s an interesting twist because it tells me…can you talk to somebody who knows something about what you’re doing? Can you convey it in a way that people can understand? And it helps me get into their brain. Why do you like doing this?” – David Klee - These types of questions help David understand how much someone enjoys working in the technology field or they are in it solely for the money. * Do most employers see value in a prospective employee having the experience in writing detailed documentation or disaster recovery plans, or is it a mixed bag? + “The company should love it. I can’t say they always do.” – David Klee + Some employers may think you are too deep in the weeds or that you spend too much time on paperwork and process to effectively get things done. - Companies could be solely focused on getting things done, which can be a problem. - Companies too focused on process may be very inefficient. - David says it’s an interesting balancing act and sees this play out differently inside different organizations. The approach may depend on the type of business and what they are trying to do. - “If a person’s process behind this stuff doesn’t line up with the company, you may not be a good fit.” – David Klee + John mentioned the good and the bad of systems being designed to prevent change. - “Database technologies are very evolutionary. I see people that can’t embrace positive change to be as big of a detriment as people that embrace negative change too haphazardly.” – David Klee - David highlights an example. This company needed a more highly available database environment but was too reluctant to migrate to one. The change was too much for them to embrace even though it would provide a great benefit. - This isn’t about a poor value statement for the change. No one wants to put their job on the line if something doesn’t work. David mentions a mandate from the top of a company for availability, but no one at lower levels is willing to make changes to achieve it. This is a case of a mandate not being enforced. - “It’s we’re willing to sacrifice what we know to move into unknown territory carefully, cautiously, one piece at a time…and they can’t start the process.” – David Klee - John says this may be due to cultural or political undercurrents not visible to someone on the outside of the system. - David references a previous conversation we had on the show about consulting and the level of exposure to politics. David reiterates one of the reasons he loves consulting – because he does not do well with politics. - Are consultants brought in because of company politics? The fun part of consulting according to David is when a company brings you in to tell them what they need to do. When a company brings you in and tells you what to do as a consultant, you have the ability to say no if asked to take an improper or incorrect approach (another reason David loves consulting). * In environments where detailed documentation is seen as valuable, can this get someone a promotion or perhaps even save their job? + The answer is 100% yes. + David gives the example of a company which had a security incident last year. The database administrator was seen as someone who always said no to things, wanting to look at code before it was released to production or have changes happen during normal working hours, etc. - After the company was hit by a ransomware incident, the database administrator (or DBA), recovered the machines in 7 hours. It took 2 weeks for all other systems that used the database to get back up and running again. - The database servers had proper change control, use of service accounts, firewalling, etc. and were the most resilient because of that. - “Data was up all because…questioned everything, didn’t trust a bit. I trust you, and I trust your intentions. But prove it.” – David Klee, on the mindset needed for resilient systems
Mentioned in the Outro* When creating system or change documentation, remember that one person you could be writing the documentation for is you in the future. You can also take the attitude of providing the right level of depth in documentation so that others can fix the problem without needing to call you. + Having appropriate levels of documentation in a place where everyone can find it can make it easier for team members to rotate in and out of certain areas and support taking uninterrupted vacations. + If your company or team isn’t documenting systems or changes at a deep level, maybe you can be the one to start the trend or help operationalize it for your team. Try speaking with your manager or team lead about the value of better documentation and ideas for getting there (maybe differently than it has been done in the past). Even making small improvements is progress, and it could be the kind of progress that helps you progress to team lead someday. * For additional interview question ideas related to documentation and knowledge management, check out Episode 293 – Enterprise Knowledge Management: A Consultative Approach to Solving the Right Problems with Abby Clobridge (2/2). * Troubleshooting is about drawing a line between two points and checking telemetry at every point in between, but when we are troubleshooting with others, it is an opportunity to show empathy, to collaborate effectively to solve a problem, and to learn from colleagues. + Maybe you can learn from the way colleagues on other teams document their changes and see how it compares to the way your team is doing it. * Documentation lends itself well to ensure we are prepared for a business emergency
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
Does the ADHD brain experience stress differently in situations like being laid off, for example? According to Skye Waterson, ADHD coach and our guest in episode 314, stress actually has the potential to hit you harder after a crisis.
In this discussion, Skye shares practical tips for setting achievable goals as a job seeker or an entrepreneur and the importance of taking a long-term view throughout the process. We talk about the strengths of the ADHD brain in the tech field and how to determine if a work environment is the right fit when you’re interviewing. Skye also shares the reasons she decided to walk away from academia to start a business and some of the lessons learned along the way.
Original Recording Date: 12-29-2024
Skye Waterson a former academic turned entrepreneur and ADHD coach. If you missed the first part of our discussion with Skye for a slightly different perspective on the ADHD brain, check out Episode 313.
Topics – Stress and the ADHD Brain, ADHD Strengths in Tech, Setting Goals and Maintaining Accountability, Walking away from Academia, Reflecting on Entrepreneurship, Job Interviews and Finding an Environmental Fit2:34 – Stress and the ADHD Brain* Nick suggests we talk about stress in the context of the current job market. We’re seeing layoffs across tech and other industries continue. How do these stressful and traumatic situations affect the ADHD brain differently than perhaps those who do not have ADHD? + “There’s no conclusive thing that I can think of in the research that I’ve done that we experience stress in a different way…. What I would come back to with ADHD is that we have impulsivity struggles and we have executive functioning struggles. And so, it comes back to this idea that you’re ADHD all the time. When something stressful happens to you when you have ADHD…you have to deal with all of the emotional regulation, all of the thinking…all those things can mean it hits harder.” – Skye Waterson - People with ADHD can struggle with rejection sensitivity and self-criticism. Self-criticism could be partially due to receiving a lot of criticism when younger (positive or negative). - Stressful events can hit harder as well if you have PTSD or other mental health struggles. + Skye gives the example of getting into a car wreck. After it happens, you have to call the insurance company, figure out what to do with your car, and do many other things. - “And especially once the dopamine is gone…you might be good in the crisis, but post-crisis, you now have to pick up all of this executive functioning task work and do emotions. So, you might be struggling way longer than somebody else might be struggling…because now you have to deal with all this actual admin work as well.” – Skye Waterson, on experiencing stressful situations with ADHD * If we put that same set of challenges in the context of someone losing a job, someone would need to figure out how to spend the time they have left at a company (could be some or none), update their resume, update LinkedIn, and decide what to do next. + “I’ve worked with a lot of people in that job space…. Essentially what you’re doing is you’re starting a small business called finding another job. It’s really complicated…. Really it does have to be a system that you break down…. What is my goal? My goal is to get this job. What are the steps that make this goal inevitable in a day? …Make it an achievable goal for you to hit those things and focus on that and give yourself dopamine for that rather than…my goal is to wake up every morning and try and get a job. That’s very, very difficult and not very fun from an emotional point of view.” – Skye Waterson - Some of the people Skye has worked with chose to begin a small business on the side after being impacted by a layoff. It’s certainly one option for people but not the only one. - Part of the system might include a specific number of people to message per day, a specific number of resumes to send per day, and a specific number of jobs to check in on. These goals should be achievable for you. + Would the amount of dopamine required to work toward getting another job each day be even higher because of the compelling event that put you into a stressed state? - Skye says yes but you also do not have to start immediately. We can sometimes go into crisis mode and use the dopamine of stressful events to push us forward. It can seem like a crazy burst of energy that propels you until you crash. - “In the moment when it happens…and if you knew that this might happen it can be good to prepare this in advance…you want to go ahead and do something grounding. Things you liked as a kid are very helpful. Give yourself Chinese food, watch a movie with a friend…things like that could be really good. But have a time in your calendar that you’ve blocked out that is ‘plan to find another job.’ Give yourself a 2-hour window. Put it in your calendar like you’d put a doctor’s appointment. Take yourself to a coffee shop if that’s going to help you stay motivated to do it, especially if you’ve been used to a working environment, and once you’re there, give yourself a really nice cup of coffee (maybe a chocolate biscuit with this one) and then go ahead and plan it out.” – Skye Waterson - Skye recommends an AI-powered app called Goblin Tools to help with planning / breaking down things into steps. This app is free and is designed to help people with ADHD. You could search for “find a job in X industry in X country” for example, and the tool will break it down into steps that you can convert into a daily rhythm (focusing on the input and not the output) and overall system for finding another job. - With ADHD one of the struggles with executive function is working memory. It can be hard to break things down into subtasks once you have a high-level task or goal. Skye likes to use the example of buying a new rug to show all the subtasks required (measuring, finding a new one, going to get it, deciding what to do with the old one, carrying it upstairs, etc.). - Nick has seen the challenge of breaking things down into steps firsthand through working with his daughter. It’s like there are dependencies that are missed. But once Nick’s daughter has the list, it’s easy to move forward and make progress. - “A list, a daily routine, a reward,…making it a realistic thing….” – Skye Waterson, on the elements of a good system for a job search - Goblin Tools can also provide a rough time estimate for tasks. They probably are not really accurate, but it can help you understand everything will not happen tomorrow and that it will take time. * Is it easier for the ADHD brain to find closure after a stressful event (loss of a job, death in the family, etc.)? + Skye has not seen any evidence to suggest this is the case. + “It’s more the case that the admin of all of these things can tend to linger for a lot longer for people who are neurodiverse. So, they might still have boxes of things that they haven’t organized, for example, for years after other people would have organized them.” – Skye Waterson + Part of the reason Skye recommends using the prioritization filer we discussed last week was to account for things which might be lingering in someone’s mind for a long time (like things that have gone unorganized). + Some of the strengths of ADHD are creative problem solving, original thinking, etc.
11:53 – ADHD Strengths in Tech* How might the strengths of the ADHD brain play out in the world of technology? + Nick mentions a great discussion from the ADHD Skills Lab podcast with guest Lisa Ballard about working in technology sales with ADHD. + “There are a ton of strengths. When I work with people who have ADHD it’s really about how do we mitigate the struggles so we can focus on the strengths. We’re not living a life of just mitigating the struggles, and sometimes people think that…. We know from the research that we’re original thinkers. If you give a person with ADHD a task and an example of the task, people who are neurotypical will tend to iterate around that example. People who are ADHD be fully left field…and completely originally redesign this thing…. You can sort of see how that would work well if you were in a workplace and you were solving a problem. One of the best things about ADHD in the technology space is that we are out of the box thinkers. We love pulling a solution to a complex problem out that no one else has seen before. And we’ll usually have an original perspective on why it exists, what we should do about it…. They’re great people to have in the room when you are ideating, when you are problem solving, when you are bug fixing even…all of those spaces.” – Skye Waterson, on ADHD strengths and how they play out in tech * Would this support the theory that many entrepreneurs have ADHD? + Skye says ADHD is so common in entrepreneurs that people just assume entrepreneurs have it instead of the other way around. + Skye mentions two types of entrepreneurs: - The first type would be someone who has ADHD, never really worked on it, managed to focus without burning out completely, and became a very successful business owner with multiple employees. This person has not sorted out their own ADHD. - The second type is the entrepreneur with ADHD who is struggling (and maybe burning out) who seeks out strategies and support. + “Sometimes people will say ‘I have ADHD, but it doesn’t affect me….’ You should talk to the people in your office. It might.” – Skye Waterson
14:43 – Setting Goals and Maintaining Accountability* How can the entrepreneur stick to the business they have chosen and focus on it without getting distracted or losing interest in it completely? One of the ADHD traits is losing interest in things after a time and abandoning them. + Skye says it’s very hard, and she’s spoken to other entrepreneurs with ADHD about this. + One way to combat this is to only do things that add to what you’re already doing. If you only help people in the technology space, you should only decide to do things that help people in the technology space. + Another way is to set a very long-term goal for your business (possibly a 25-year goal) and then smaller, shorter term goals or targets you’re working toward along the way (i.e. where you might want to be in 5 years or even 1 year, etc.).Ng + Having an EA or executive assistant can also be very helpful to hold you accountable and to be honest when you have added too much to your plate. External accountability can be very helpful. * Can we have people hold us accountable in a way that we don’t feel the shame of not accomplishing a goal or abandoning a goal? With the challenges in emotional regulation that come with ADHD, does the sense of shame become greater? + Skye says yes it can be greater. But the problem may lie with the goal you have set. + In business, we often talk about the idea of a BHAG or big, hairy, audacious goal. It can be easier to not feel shame if the goal doesn’t have a strict timeline. + When working with an executive assistant, ask them about their goals to ensure their goal fits within yours. + Skye gives the example of having a goal to create a business that eventually becomes a media empire but at the same time is sustainable and will support balance with family life. + “If you said to somebody, ‘that’s my goal,’ and maybe part of that, because we do want some kind of measure, is ‘I want my business to hit 6 figures by the end of the year. That’s my goal.’ If you don’t hit 6 figures by the end of the year because something happened, it doesn’t super matter because you’re working toward a 25-year goal…a media empire 25-year goal. This was just a bit of a valley year. And so, you’re still going toward the goal but you’re just adjusting the goal posts when you get there. Don’t adjust them prematurely….” – Skye Waterson + Skye is advising us to take a longer-term view of our goals and to remind ourselves of the progress we have made, even if the progress was not as much as we wanted. + Don’t think about missing pre-defined targets as failures but rather as puzzles to solve while you make progress. + “This is a lot easier to do when you get out of the ‘I need to make enough money to survive’ part of business. But usually, when you’re in the ‘I need to make enough money to survive’ part of business, you have enough dopamine. It’s that middle piece that can sometimes be the problem when you’re scaling, you don’t yet have the finances to bring other people on to support yourself…to be able to get out of the things that you don’t love. You’re starting to do that, but you’re in that…complicated middle space.” – Skye Waterson, speaking to the dilemma of the solo entrepreneur + Nick says at this point effort has to go up because you are not quite big enough as a business. + “There’s that bit where…there’s no one, there’s no money, and it doesn’t super matter what the goals are because you’re just starting. No one will really notice. You can sort of play around in that space and figure it out. And I did this for years…. The middle piece is often where people find themselves stuck. They’ve got something. It’s making money, but they don’t know how to hand off those tasks and in what order and how to focus to do the thing.” – Skye Waterson + When you reach the point of being able to hire someone to help you, that can come with its own set of unique challenges according to Skye. + Before starting Unconventional Organisation, Skye helped her husband run a frozen foods business during which she learned a lot.
21:43 – Walking away from Academia* Why did Skye become an entrepreneur, and how has she seen the challenges and strengths of ADHD play out during that experience? + Skye originally wanted to be an academic. Being part of that world involved a lot of short-term contracts and grant writing. It did not seem as stable or as free as she would have liked. + “I didn’t really know what to do about that, but I did start looking at entrepreneurship at that time.” – Skye Waterson + Skye loved art and tried to sell a few paintings, but that didn’t really work well. She continued experimenting. + Skye’s then boyfriend (and now husband) who also has ADHD was starting a business selling frozen food in New Zealand. Skye helped him with the business and gained some experience, but the business fell victim to COVID shutdowns. + “It taught me a lot…. The thing I love about business is no one tells you no…and this kind of goes back to the idea of getting let go…. When you’re in a workplace, you can do your absolute…best, and you can still get fired, or you can still not get the promotion. There can be politics. There can be other things. When you are running your own business it’s sort of like a big giant puzzle. Yes, someone can say no to this thing, but maybe you just need to rethink what you’re doing, or maybe you need to talk to a different audience…. There’s often a solution. There’s something to do. And that for me was very good.” – Skye Waterson + When Skye started as an ADHD coach, she did not anticipate it becoming a large business, but she did hire a business coach. Skye knew from her previous experience how important this would be, and she also hired an executive assistant for a few hours per week. Skye highlights these two decisions as helping her grow and develop tremendously. + Skye would eventually decide to leave her PhD program and tells us it was one of the most difficult decisions she’s ever had to make after spending so much time pursuing that path. Skye found that her PhD supervisors / advisors were supportive of her decision to start a business and leave the program. + Skye is still involved in research and has a researcher on staff. Skye’s podcast, The ADHD Skills Lab, is a platform to discuss the current research which she can then turn into helpful teaching tools. + “In that way, it’s been great because businesses are like this little interesting engine that you can craft to however you want to work…. I still do the things I want to do. I just do them in a slightly different way.” – Skye Waterson + Nick thinks Skye has taken the things she enjoyed from academia and put them into a slightly different context. + Skye was at the dissertation stage when she left her PhD program, having already done the research that just needed to be written up. She also had a small baby at the time. + Skye said she was going to pursue a PhD and then didn’t finish it, but it’s ok that she didn’t finish. There is no shame in it because that was a small step in a much longer-term journey or goal. Skye is modeling for us that her own focus is on longer-term goals.
26:56 – Reflecting on Entrepreneurship* What are some of the things Skye wishes she had asked about being an entrepreneur that she had to learn only after becoming one? + Skye wishes she had asked how to make money. That was definitely harder than it looked. + It wasn’t until after building a 6-figure business that someone told Skye how to do sales properly. She mentions she had been order taking rather than making sales. + “At the end of the day the number 1 thing you want to do is sell. Sales is super important, and I’ve had amazing business mentors throughout my career. That’s been the thing that has been most helpful. Do you know how to sell something to someone? …I knew how to do academia. I could talk for ages, but I didn’t know to sell something. That was big.” – Skye Waterson, on learning how to sell + Skye would highly recommend the book Spin Selling. + Skye has also found putting on her psychologist hat really helpful within the context of selling. People have a problem, and you may have the solution to that problem. But you need to understand the problem before proposing a solution. + “So, if somebody has this problem and you have the solution to this problem, then it’s…your job to make sure you understand all the objections to the problem…. I did clinical psychology in my undergrad, so if you think about it from that perspective, I find that much better than sales.” – Skye Waterson * When selling a product or service, in many ways it’s like a bi-directional job interview. The entrepreneur can say no to the wrong kind of client / customer. + Skye tells us she has said no to potential clients before and that there is a qualification process one has to go through before working with her. - Often times saying no to someone is because the person may need more intensive mental health support. - Skye only supports clients (business owners) who do high ticket, high value products. + Skye mentions most of her work being centered on helpful content creation and development. Some people who have found the content helpful are potential customers and can then be taken through the qualification process to determine if they are a good fit for the product or service. - Skye says in this way, it feels less like what we expect traditional sales to be, but in reality, this process is what high-level salespeople are actually doing. + One of the patterns we’ve seen in the careers of previous guests is using content creation / public proof of work to stand out in the job market. Just as it helps entrepreneurs like Skye sell a product or service, it can help individuals land a new job opportunity (even if it’s unexpected).
31:41 – Job Interviews and Finding an Environmental Fit* Within the context of a job interview situation, what are some of the things the neurodiverse individual can ask to pinpoint any red flags in a potential work environment? + The number one thing for Skye is to understand the options for flexibility in the workplace. When you are given the chance to ask questions, consider asking: - What are your different workplace options? - What are the different ways that people in your office work? + “Often times with ADHD the thing we’re looking for is an environmental fit…. What we want to know is are you going to get dirty looks every time you put your headphones on? …If you just said, ‘I’m really curious about the different ways people in your office work. Is everybody at their desk? Do people have their own offices? Do people work from home? What are the different options?” – Skye Waterson, on environmental fit in interviews - Some environments may have flexible working hours as well. - If the options for working sound like a fit, Skye would also recommend (if you can) speaking to someone else who works for the company (in the office or remotely) to get the inside scoop on what it’s really like. + Ask about whether the work is project based or repetitive. Will there be clear deadlines, or will new tasks come from multiple different departments every day? Either can be fine, but it depends on what you as the job seeker with ADHD want. * Should someone share their neurodiversity openly during the interview process? + Skye says this is a very personal decision and that many people choose not to share it in an interview scenario unless it will have a big impact on the workplace. + It is more likely for people to share their neurodiversity once others get to know them as a person. This helps avoid stereotyping from others. + “Instead of saying, ‘I have ADHD,’ you might say, ‘by the way, I work best in these environments.’ So, you’re giving them the context, the information about what ADHD is without saying, ‘I have ADHD….’ You might say, ‘I have these characteristics,’ whatever it is that is important to you about expressing from the ADHD.” – Skye Waterson - You could say that you like strict deadlines, for example. - Nick suggests expressing what you want to express to multiple people throughout the interview process (recruiter, hiring manager, others on the team, etc.) to gauge responses. - Even though a company may not advertise the flexibilities an individual with ADHD might be looking for, the right manager and the right team could be the fit needed. - Skye says one challenge of the workplace is that it is team based, and different department managers may have different rules. * To reach out to Skye or learn more about her work… + Visit the Unconventional Organisation website, and be sure to check out the blog section. + Contact Skye directly on Instagram @UnconventionalOrganisation + Be sure to check out The ADHD Skills Lab Podcast where Skye and others interview amazing people with ADHD like Lisa Ballard and share research recaps to educate the greater community. + Skye is currently working on a book called Focused, Balanced Days with ADHD that you can read on Substack.
Mentioned in the Outro* Nick loves the idea of making your goal inevitable within a day or setting yourself up so it is a given that you will hit your goal. It does involve breaking things down into smaller steps and chunks that are parts of systems and processes, but it sounds a lot like we need to develop a routine we can use to work toward our goals (like finding a new job) during the time slot we have! + Have you tried Goblin Tools yet? If so we would love to hear how you use it! Send us an e-mail. + This development of a routine can translate to preparing for the interview process. For example, we can develop the go-to questions about the type of work environment that best suits our brain or working style. * We’ve had a number of discussions with guests about deciding to stop doing something that once took a great deal of time and effort. Skye decided to walk away from her PhD, but taking the longer-term view helped her gain perspective on that single step in the journey toward something else. + Nick feels like he heard an episode of the Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture Podcast that discussed the idea of no experience ever being a waste. That experience in academia wasn’t wasted for Skye. She uses many of those same skills and more as an entrepreneur and business owner. + Seth Godin as said deciding to stop doing something is a gift from our past self to our future self.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
Are push notifications directing your day? While useful in some ways, push notifications can also become a huge distraction, especially for the ADHD brain. This week in episode 313 we’re joined by Skye Waterson, a former academic turned business owner and ADHD coach, to discuss practical strategies for staying focused in your work.
Since dopamine levels affect our motivation, we might need to make adjustments to our dopamine levels to help increase our focus whether we work in an office or from home. Skye will explore some of the unique challenges of working from home with ADHD, thoughts on the ADHD brain’s struggle with procrastination, and the importance of clarifying our daily priorities. We also discuss the purpose of developing daily routines that will decrease stress and support working memory.
Original Recording Date: 12-29-2024
Topics – A Different Perspective on ADHD in Our Careers, Baselining ADHD and Work Environments, Motivation and Dopamine at Work, Working from Home and Managing Distractions, Developing Purposeful Routines, Communication Preferences and Managing Push Notifications, Procrastination and Prioritization2:11 – A Different Perspective on ADHD in Our Careers* Skye Waterson is a former academic who found out she had ADHD at the beginning of pursuing a PhD. As a result, Skye decided to focus on ADHD research. After doing a bunch of research on ADHD, Skye posted her findings on the internet. Once the pandemic hit, Skye began coaching and loved it. She has grown her coaching practice into a 6-figure business and recently transitioned to working with business owners who have ADHD. * We’ve discussed ADHD on the show previously with guests Jon Towles and Kristen Carder, but this time we’re going to approach it from a different angle. Here are the links if you would like to go back and hear those discussions: + Episode 129 – The Challenges of a Superpower with Jon Towles (1/2) + Episode 130 – The Excellent Advocate with Jon Towles (2/2) + Episode 216 – Experiencing a Neurodivergent Diagnosis with Kristen Carder (1/2) + Episode 217 – The Vulnerable Parts of ADHD with Kristen Carder (2/2)
3:15 – Baselining ADHD and Work Environments* How would Skye define what ADHD is and is not? + ADHD is a persistent and pervasive struggle with executive functioning (an area where Skye is heavily focused), impulsivity, and emotional dysregulation. This comes from shifts in the brain as seen in the neuroscience. + Skye tells us the DSM-5 is most commonly used for diagnosing ADHD. The DSM-5 is a set of criteria and questions one would get asked by a professional (usually as psychiatrist but could be other professionals depending on your country) to diagnose ADHD. There are slightly different criteria to diagnose ADHD depending on whether you’re a child or an adult. + When diagnosing adults, professionals are looking for whether your struggles have been pervasive over time. + There are two primary types of ADHD: - Primarily Inattentive – it may not show up, but this usually means you are distracted - Primarily Hyperactive – driven by a motor internally / difficulty sitting still - There is also a combined type (which happens to be Skye’s diagnosis type). * These types are going to play out in our careers. What might ADHD look like for someone who works in technology? + Skye says this can look like many different things. Work environments can look like Google, a place where there is a lot of flexibility and freedom. Environments like this also force you to manage your own time. Doing technology work for the government, for example, may not allow flexibility in the applications you get to use. In some cases, Skye has worked with clients who were employed by a government and were not allowed to use their phones at work. + Overall, it depends on the level of flexibility your work environment will allow. + “Mostly we’re thinking about how do you focus on the work you have to do? How do you prioritize that work when new things are coming in all the time? And how do you stay motivated to keep doing it consistently?” – Skye Waterson
6:17 – Motivation and Dopamine at Work* Motivation is something we all need. What are some of the motivation challenges for the ADHD brain when hit with something that is not very exciting? + Skye tells us neuroscience and ADHD are areas of current active research. + The neurotypical individual, when starting a task, usually has some type of spike in the brain’s reward center for starting a task (i.e. a spike in dopamine). In the ADHD brain, however, this spike doesn’t really happen and might need some help. - Skye says people with ADHD will say they feel lazy as a result of this. In reality it is the brain doing different things in different ways. - People with ADHD need to add some dopamine to get to the same place. Skye equates this scenario to being underpaid in rewards. * Adding dopamine certainly can help the ADHD brain with motivation, but it can be helpful on a wider scale as well. But how? + Skye worked with the New Zealand Intelligence Services and the District Health Board. After providing some strategies to help personnel with ADHD, these organizations recognized the strategies could be helpful on a much wider scale internally. + “Everyone has a down day like you said, but we struggle with it the most.” – Skye Waterson, on the ADHD brain and motivation + Skye took all of the research she’s studied and turned it into a program called Focused Balanced Days. The intent is to help people move from inconsistent to consistent. + Skye says at a high level we can add sensory things and stack them. It’s not about just rewarding ourselves with something to eat because taste is 1 of the 5 senses. We can often be understimulated across the 5 senses rather than overstimulated as many might think. + “If you’re talking about a workplace, for example, you might say, ‘ok, what can I bring to work that I can touch, that I can taste, that I can smell, that I can see that’s going to help…raise the level of stimulation to help me stay focused at work?” – Skye Waterson + If we take working in an office as an example, does strategically planning to get coffee from the break room help? - This is a start, but Skye would encourage us to think about what we can have at our desk in an office. This can be a little tricky. - Could you bring a fidget that looks like a key ring or even a Rubik’s cube? - Note taking can allow fidgeting also because it allows switching between doodling and taking notes. - If there’s a blank wall around you at the office, can anything be added to the wall? - Likely we cannot do much about smell in an office. - Can you use / wear headphones at the office? They can be used for noise reduction, adding in some type of different noise / sound, or for listening to something. You could also consider using earbuds and putting in only one of them. This works well when the earbud is Bluetooth connected to your phone. It allows one tap to turn on / off so you can have a conversation with anyone who walks up to your desk. - Skye mentions she has leveraged the single earbud strategy at times to provide a distraction from unpleasant things like going to the doctor. She will listen to music or a podcast. * What about asking to sit in a different area because the area where you are now is too distracting? + Skye says this is definitely worth asking about but can get political at times. It will depend on how willing your management are to accommodate this kind of request. This is something to think about when seeking the right type of work environment for you. + Skye would encourage us to align what we want with the goals of the company in order to improve the chances of getting what we want. Sitting somewhere else would help you contribute to the company goals / mission better or faster, etc. because you are less distracted. + “You could be in a busy traffic area and just chat to everybody all day and get super distracted. It’s not going to be great for the workplace, so that’s kind of the key.” – Skye Waterson, on moving your desk to prevent distractions
13:48 – Working from Home and Managing Distractions* How can we minimize distractions while working from home but also increase dopamine levels / number of sensations available? + “This is a tricky one because when you’re talking about the workplace, often you’re talking about external distractions. When you’re talking about the home, we can still be talking about external distractions, but we’re more talking about internal motivation…because everything can feel more important than the work.” – Skye Waterson + Skye hears people talk about various tasks that keep them from accomplishing anything when working from home. Examples we discuss are cleaning a room, doing the dishes, etc. + At home, we are more susceptible to procrastivity, which is doing something that feels productive to procrastinate on doing something we don’t want to do. + Send Skye a message on Instagram with the words “Nerd Journey Focus” in the message body to get a document explaining some of the things we are about to discuss. + We have to step into focus at home. Part of this is working through the resistance we feel. At work, there are opportunities for “body doubling,” which can be very helpful to the ADHD brain. But at home, you likely will work by yourself and might have people in other rooms of the house doing other things. + Skye recommends having a dedicated space for work. You want to prevent the pull of needing to organize something. You don’t want too much clutter. Skye is not saying you need to organize a bunch of things before you can get work accomplished. Just keep it out of your sight and away from distracting you. + Stepping into focus means you’re moving yourself from being distracted and unmotivated to working and focused. - Especially when you’re at home, reward yourself for starting (some kind of dopamine reward). Maybe it’s reading an article, listening to music, and having a cup of tea. When people question giving themselves a reward, Skye might remind the person how much less time this will take than doomscrolling social media. + Should the music be instrumental only, with lyrics, or does it matter when it comes to stepping into focus? - Skye mentions there are a lot of discussions about the idea of a dopamine detox - With ADHD, Skye recommends dialing down your dopamine but not turning it off completely. It’s difficult for the ADHD brain to dial down dopamine from 100 to 0. - If we start stepping into focus by reading an article, Skye recommends switching to either a podcast or to music with lyrics next. At this point you would turn off any distractions and write down the task you want to complete during this time period (which supports working memory and is a very important step). Maybe then you feel less distracted than when you were reading the article but decide to switch to music without lyrics to prevent distractions while you open an application and start to use it. - “I like to imagine it as turning down the dial. You have a big dial, one of those old school dials that clicks, and you’re adjusting the dial…. This is my level of distraction, so I’m not going to suddenly try and sit in silence. That’s never going to work. I’m going to instead try listening to a podcast because I would probably do that. Once I’m more focused I might turn off that and switch to music with lyrics, etc.” – Skye Waterson + Check out this menu of ideas to increase dopamine, also called a dopamenu. * What about number of monitors / screens? Is having 2 monitors too distracting? + Skye likes 2 monitors because of working memory. + People with ADHD really struggle with working memory. Switching between tabs can be a challenge (i.e. forgetting what was on the first as you switch to the second). Having 2 screens allows you to have multiple tabs open at the same time and supports working memory. * Is changing your environment by going to a coffee shop a reward or too distracting for the ADHD brain? + “Some people find that over stimulating. The thing about ADHD I will say is that different scenarios are different levels of stimulation for different people. With ADHD it also depends on the task. My recommendation is have a toolbox of different environments you want to work in and adjust it based on you. But for a lot of people, working in a coffee shop can be really helpful. It can be the difference between getting something written and not getting something written. I know for me, I do all my writing in coffee shops because it’s too distracting to do it at home. But if I’m in a coffee shop and I have a coffee in front of me, I have the stimulation I need to step into focus.” – Skye Waterson + This is going to be different for everyone, but if going to a coffee shop helps you focus, Skye would encourage you to keep doing it. The price of the coffee is worth it! * Maybe we should approach this with the mindset of experimentation. Would Skye encourage us to journal on how focused we feel when we experiment? + When people work with Skye, she asks them to commit to experimentation. The commitment is to try and then adjust once you know what is and is not working. This process is like untangling a ball of yarn / string. + It is challenging to experiment when you do not have the strategies and the systems in place to know and understand what went wrong.
21:44 – Developing Purposeful Routines* A travel-heavy role certainly may require some experimentation. Travel could be local, regional, or otherwise. What can we do to help ourselves stay structured if we have to travel? + Traveling can be tricky with ADHD according to Skye. She suggests keeping your routine and adjusting it when you travel. + “I recommend people have routines they can stretch and squish down, so they can sort of stretch it out or squish it down.” – Skye Waterson + Skye gives the example routine of waking up, doing some journaling, having coffee, having breakfast, and then getting in some movement. - Movement is a great way to support working memory. + In a travel situation, Skye might shorten the example routine above to journal only a few words, getting breakfast, and then doing ten jumping jacks. - “…so that’s kind of a very squished down version, but you’re keeping the routine. You’re not breaking the routine. This is also really helpful for the holidays.” – Skye Waterson + There’s also a planning element needed to avoid being late for things when you travel. - “Sometimes when people travel, they…decide to give up all of the ADHD strategies that they’ve learned that work. We’re always ADHD all the time. So, you want to be using those strategies whether you’re at work, whether you’re on holiday…it’s the same thing. You want to go ahead and schedule what you’re going to do in your calendar. And schedule transition times as well because with ADHD we really struggle with transitions. And we love to think we can teleport, but we can’t.” – Skye Waterson + Skye recommends planning your prep time as well as your leave time (put time for each on your calendar). This can help prevent being consistently late or consistently too early, decrease stress, and make effective use of transition times. - Even if you are never late, feeling like you’re almost late can increase your stress level. * Nick likes the idea of having routines each morning or even before certain activities. It seems to be very stoic. What is the purpose of the routine according to Skye? + The routine supports emotional regulation, addressing physical needs (like eating / fueling your body), and working memory. It also gives an opportunity to get some dopamine (a dose of fun in the morning). + We know from research that movement supports working memory, and this is especially important for those with ADHD. * Does journaling increase dopamine as well if it’s part of a routine? + There’s a growing understanding of ADHD and emotional dysregulation. Things like relaxing, reducing, grounding, and calming all become important. + Skye personally likes journaling, but her podcast producer actually finds journaling stressful and would prefer to mindfully do something else. Skye recommends listeners pursue some form of mindfulness that allows a release or reduction of thoughts in our heads to bring a sense of calm. She would recommend everyone do something for themselves in this way. + Personal development guru and high-performance coach Brendon Burchard has spoken about the benefits of consistent journaling for stress reduction. + Is there a specific type of journaling the ADHD brain should focus on, like just writing your thoughts (more like morning pages) or perhaps choosing a specific topic? + On Skye’s podcast, The ADHD Skills Lab, they frequently discuss research topics, and as of right now, there does not seem to be a specific type of journaling that suits the ADHD brain best. + On a personal level, Skye likes using the morning pages system. - It’s all just about getting to a place where you have a little bit more distance between your thoughts and your actions. Because when you have ADHD, we are more impulsive…. And so, we just want to take a minute in the morning if we can and just remind ourselves about that separation. And that’s really what the purpose is." – Skye Waterson
28:07 – Communication Preferences and Managing Push Notifications* In communication, is there a medium that a working person with ADHD might prefer over others? Is it e-mail, text, phone call, instant message / chat, etc.? + Skye says there is no one medium that is particularly good for everyone with ADHD, but most people with ADHD will have a strongly held preference for one particular communication medium. + There are other learning difficulties that can be connected to having ADHD like dyscalculia, dyslexia, or something else. This could be part of the reason people with ADHD have a strong preference. - Some people will need to write things down, some will need to say it out loud, some will need to hear it, etc. - Usually, people will have 1 or 2 communication mediums they really appreciate, but it will come down to the person. + Skye often works with people supporting entrepreneurs. If she were coaching someone on how to communicate to a team, consider the following… - Slack, for example, allows audio messages to be sent and will include a transcript of the audio messages. Platforms with a transcript option can be very helpful if people who need to receive the message are not auditory receivers. - Platforms are making it easier to communicate with different types of people like transcribing uploaded videos as well. * Should we expect colleagues with ADHD to tell us their preference of communication medium, or should we get better at asking them what they need? + People with ADHD may not be able to pinpoint what works the best for them. Skye says it’s about understanding people and paying attention. For example, does someone never respond to your written messages? + We might have to share some observations with a colleague and make a suggestion based on our observations. * What about handling push notifications from the applications we use? How can the ADHD brain prevent these from being too distracting? + Skye says push notifications are terrible for the ADHD brain, and they should be removed immediately. + Overall, Skye encourages people to have a rhythm to their day. The reason Skye concentrates on focused balanced days and focused balanced business growth is to make it easier to remember when things need to be done. + “Decide your rhythm for checking things, and then turn off all other notifications except for the emergency contact…. That would be my recommendation when it comes to push notifications…just aggressively remove them from every single app you get.” – Skye Waterson - The above applies to checking e-mail (which you might do at specific times of day, etc.) and all other notifications. + Even with notifications turned off, you might find you reflexively open a specific app on your phone or computer. To stop yourself from checking it as much, try putting the shortcut to the app in a different place on your phone / computer (i.e. not on the home screen or bookmarks bar). + How does the shift to no push notifications look to other people you work with? Maybe some people manage this transition better than others? - If you’re planning to do this at work, you may need to have a conversation similar to the one about moving desks. Skye says this is the digital version of moving desks. + When Skye works with clients, detailed advice in this area is also about what their job role requires from a communication standpoint. If the person needs to respond to e-mails within 10 minutes, that is going to look different than needing to respond within 24 hours might. - For example, being unreachable for 2 hours to focus on a specific task or set of tasks unless someone calls you is probably going to be fine. - “The biggest problem you’re actually going to have is that now, the source of dopamine that you were using and justifying, which was checking your e-mail, is now gone. So, you might have to dial down your dopamine. The most stimulating thing you might be doing all day is checking your e-mails.” – Skye Waterson - Perhaps you could listen to more podcasts in the background while you work. Once you start checking e-mail less, as Skye and many others have learned, you might realize that checking e-mail or other analytics was your way of procrastivity (avoiding other things). - If you spend all your time looking for the perfect app for something, it might be procrastinating!
36:06 – Procrastination and Prioritization* “You could almost call ADHD struggles with procrastination. That could almost be an alternative title for ADHD. Because when…you’re talking about the general idea of working memory and time blindness and all of those things…one of the reasons we procrastinate is…the thing is too boring, the thing is too emotionally salient…or it’s too confusing. So sometimes rather than addressing or understanding the reasons I’m not doing this project, we will just go off on a million different side quests and never come back to the project.” – Skye Waterson + Skye tells us there’s no formally agreed upon definition of executive functioning. + All the side quests mentioned in the quote above make us feel like we’ve accomplished something. * Send Skye a message on Instagram with the words “Nerd Journey Prioritization,” and she will send you a doc on this topic. + There is a prioritization filter which can be optimized when Skye works with clients as a way to keep them from procrastinating. + “I’ve done this prioritization filter so many times with people…. If you have more than 5 things to do today and more than 10 things to do this week, you’re probably not prioritizing correctly. Most of us only have that number. We could have some subtasks maybe, but for most of us that should be the number we’re working at. Ninety percent of people I haven’t seen go over that number once they do the filtering.” – Skye Waterson + If your task list seems too full, Skye would advise you to consider the following: - What can be delegated? - Can something you took on from someone else be given back to that person (i.e. a catch and release)? - “What needs to be done today or there will be a significant external negative consequence? And if that’s not the case, it doesn’t have to be done today. It could be done today. It might be that it’s important and you want to do it today. We can bring it back in. But we don’t have to run around with this, ‘it has to be done today or everything’s gonna fall apart’ because it doesn’t have a significant external negative consequence.” – Skye Waterson + Skye struggled in this area quite a bit, especially when she was in academia. She tells the story of telling people she would complete things by Friday and then work late into the night on them. When her husband asked who the work was for, Skye began to realize she was trying to complete too many things by Friday that had manufactured deadlines (the ones she made for herself). - Nick says some of this could be because we said we would do something by a certain date, and we want to be seen as reliable. - “And it’s a real trap with ADHD because we have time blindness, so often the deadlines we’re creating were unrealistic to start with.” – Skye Waterson - One of the most effective things we can do in the workplace is put a clock in a visible place so that people in meetings or at their desks can see time passing and be less susceptible to time blindness.
Mentioned in the Outro* Did you turn off your push notifications after listening to that episode? + Skye is encouraging us to manage notifications and distractions so we can have more periods of focus throughout our days. + Getting more periods of focus each day aligns with the principles of Deep Work that Cal Newport write about and that we reviewed in Episode 141 through Episode 147. + Dopamine hits from checking e-mail and other notifications sound like the hiding places Jon Acuff mentioned in his book Finish. We discussed hiding places in detail in Episode 273 as part of a 4-part book review series of Finish. + Remember also the managing of notifications and prioritization filter will depend on the responsibilities of your job. If you need help refining these 1-1, consider getting a coach. * The Unconventional Organisation site has a number of fantastic blog articles you can find here. + Getting Help With ADHD and Routines + Email Management Tips for ADHD Brains + Three Tips for Better Communication with ADHD * Remember to check out Skye’s podcast, The ADHD Skills Lab.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
How should we use our influence as technologists? For Julia Furst Morgado, it’s not about increasing followers on social media or hitting some kind of metric. It’s a focus on educating and helping others…being a bridge into a technical community for someone else.
This week in episode 312 you’ll hear more about Julia’s role as a global technologist for Veeam. We discuss the realities of traveling heavily for work and attending events while continuing to learn and build community. We’ll explore Julia’s involvement in the open-source community as a CNCF Ambassador and how she overcame impostor syndrome as a public speaker. Part of being an ambassador and a bridge to technical communities is also acting as a technical translator, making complex topics easier to understand. Listen closely to hear the full story.
Original Recording Date: 12-19-2024
Julia Furst Morgado is a global technologist at Veeam. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Julia, you can find it here.
Topics – Public Speaking and Acting as a Bridge, CNCF and Open Source, Finding Balance and Focusing on Helping Others, Work Travel and Community Building, Global Technologist and Translator, Parting Thoughts2:28 – Public Speaking and Acting as a Bridge* Did Julia know there would be a large component of her work in the role at Veeam that was public speaking? + Julia did not realize this would be a big part of her role at Veeam. She was excited to be offered the job even before finishing the boot camp but had also heard one’s first job in tech can be hard when you are changing careers / coming from a non-technical background. + While Julia had a strong professional network already, she knew the role would be an exciting challenge. + “I said ‘yes, count me in.’ And I love what I do. I love what I do. My team is amazing. I couldn’t dream to do something different. It was perfect. I couldn’t have asked for something different.” – Julia Furst Morgado * How did Julia prepare to give public presentations? + Julia tells us she used to be more introverted but learned to get out of her shell and not fear judgement from others. It was the same with public speaking. + She tells us being prepared helps us be confident to deliver a public presentation. + “The problem for me was impostor syndrome. The problem wasn’t getting on stage and presenting and not stumbling or…forgetting the slides. For me it was impostor syndrome because I never worked in production. Even to this day I never worked in production…. And I’m up there talking to engineers, senior engineers, even CTOs, CISOs…. Who am I to be up there without experience? That’s what really bothered me for a long period, but it doesn’t bother me anymore.” – Julia Furst Morgado, on impostor syndrome + Julia says it took some self-talk to shift her mindset going into these presentations. She told herself it was ok to be up there speaking. She may not know everything about a topic but can still present confidently on the topic. If someone asks a question Julia does not know how to answer, she can find the right resource to get the person’s question answered. + “But I’m just that bridge. I’m a very good bridge from the technical to the external audience…so communities at conferences and events.” – Julia Furst Morgado + John highlights the feeling that people expect a presenter to be an authority. He calls what Julia has done being a gateway to other resources like product management or solution architects. To do this, you have to be honest with yourself about what you know and what you don’t and at the same time be willing to direct someone to the right person to get an answer. - “I can tell you about this technology, but if you want to go deeper, I can tell you who you can talk to.” – Julia Furst Morgado - Julia isn’t ashamed of saying she may not be the right person to answer specific questions that pop up during a session. + Julia considers herself a generalist and tells us she doesn’t want to be “just technical.” Her desire is to bring business value into the technical discussion to become a gateway to CTOs and other C-level executives.
7:09 – CNCF and Open Source* A lot of what Julia does is organizing events. Julia organizes both the Kubernetes Community Day (or the KCD) and the AWS Community Day in New York. She also organizes the CNCF meetup in New York. * Julia is involved in the CNCF community and AWS community. She is a CNCF Ambassador, and an AWS Container Hero. * Julia also mentions being an ambassador for Google’s Women TechMaker Program, an ambassador for GirlCode, and also an ambassador for Civo. All of these achievements came over a span of 2 years. * Many people want to know how Julia achieved so much without having the previous technical background. She is trying to show people they don’t have to be only technical and that they can add value with other skills. Becoming a CNCF Ambassador doesn’t require someone to be a senior staff engineer, for example. * What is a CNCF Ambassador expected to do and be? + A CNCF Ambassador is a spokesperson for the CNCF and may give talks about some of the open-source projects (a presentation at a conference, a YouTube video, etc.). Julia says it’s like being a subject matter expert on the CNCF. People can come to her and other ambassadors if they have questions about open-source projects. + There are certain perks to being a CNCF Ambassador like discounts on certifications, a discount and special room / lounge at KubeCon, etc. + An AWS Hero is similar to a CNCF Ambassador. They are experts and thought leaders who create content and try to build community around a specific topic. + The CNCF Ambassador program requires people to apply for it. This would be similar to the Veeam Vanguard program. John describes it as being recognized for creating a portfolio of work that you need to keep working on to stay in the program. + The AWS Hero is not something you can apply for but rather something you must be nominated for by others. Julia says you can apply for the AWS Community Builder program, for example, but being a “Hero” is a higher status because you cannot apply for it. * Where can people begin if they want to get involved in open source in some way? + If you’re not sure, you could reach out to Julia or another ambassador for guidance. She says the answer of where to start depends on a few things. + Think about how you would want to contribute to open source and how much technical experience you have. - What type of technology are you using? Passion for a technology you’re using can be channeled via contributions to an open-source project. - Contributing to code may not be something you have the techncial experience to do yet. Try contributing to documentation or translation / localization. - Other ways to contribute could include triage or fixing bugs. + After thinking about how you would like to contribute and the technology you want to target, you can filter the list of potential projects. Take a look at their documentation. The majority of projects have documentation that tells you how to get started as a contributor. - If there is no documentation on how to contribute, reach out to the project maintainers. - Often times open-source projects will have their own community within Slack or Discord. + Don’t be afraid to express your interest in contributing. Julia tells us all these projects need contributors. - “If you’re curious, and you know a project, go for it.” – Julia Furst Morgado, on contributing to open-source projects + Julia also has a blog about contributing to open source that can help if you don’t know where to start. She also has posts about how to get started in cloud or just in tech and continues to act as that bridge.
13:22 – Finding Balance and Focusing on Helping Others* How does Julia keep herself from getting overwhelmed or taking on too much? + Julia isn’t sure she has a good answer to this one. It’s been 2 years, and she has been putting in tremendous effort at a fast pace. + Julia is scared of burning out and tries to slow down when possible. + At the time of this recording, Julia already has a number of events booked for 2025, including being invited to do keynote speaking engagements and to be on other podcasts. + “It’s just really hard because I’m trying to surf that wave, you know? …I can say no, but I don’t want to. I love what I’m doing, and the opportunities are coming my way. So, it’s really hard, that balance…work-life balance.” – Julia Furst Morgado + Right now, Julia says things are going well. She is trying to learn how to say no. Will it help? + Instead of answering 10 messages about how people can get into tech, Julia wrote a blog post and will send people the link. + Maybe in a year or more we can talk to Julia again and see if she has a different answer. + What about community interactions and balancing participation in several of them? - Julia has friends who are learning serverless technologies and want her to do the same. - She tells the story of giving a talk at AWS re:Invent about running containers on AWS. Julia is now working to learn Lambda and serverless. - Sometimes Julia wonders if she should keep going or if she is going too deep in an area. - “I’m still learning. I don’t know if what I am doing is right, and I tend to try to do a lot, put a lot of my plate, and want to learn everything.” – Julia Furst Morgado - Julia also mentions she has ADHD and has lists of many things to learn. + John highlights the difficult balance between following everything you are interested in, developing a passion, and burning yourself out trying to do too much. + Nick says there are many positive indicators about what Julia has shared. She’s still excited about what she is doing. She is learning the things which are interesting. None of this feels like a chore from the way she described them. + Part of Julia’s job is traveling to attend events, and that might be for half of each month. She loves meeting new people and talking about different technologies but also works to prepare demos or write blog posts. The majority of what Julia has to do from a responsibility standpoint is fun, so she has no complaints. * John mentions one of the things he noticed about Julia’s social media profile before we conducted this interview was the way she posts on social media at conferences. She often goes to different vendor booths at the conference and interview people. + At the last KubeCon, Julia did an interview with people from every booth for an open source project within the project pavilion. Conference attendees can take a tour of the project pavilion (led by a CNCF Ambassador) to learn about the different projects. + Many people cannot afford to attend KubeCon, and Julia wanted to record with each project maintainer to educate more people and encourage participation. + Julia would like to do more of these interviews at other conferences perhaps related to challenges people are facing or some other topic. Short videos are quite popular right now. It’s a good style, and she will need to select a good topic for the discussions. * Julia isn’t concerned about followers or the metrics on views of a social media post. She is focused on educating and helping other people, and maybe this focus is the reason she has not burned out. + Many people are only focused on gaining more followers, and they keep posting only for this purpose. + Julia knows people are getting something out of her content. They write messages to her with their appreciation. + Julia keeps a brag folder (much like Ramzi Marjaba’s mention of a brag file in Episode 308) with screenshots of the feedback people have sent to her on the usefulness of her content. The feedback fuels her to keep going. * It seems like Julia has found a community in which she feels like she belongs in the technology industry. Even though she was not exposed to strong communities in law or marketing, was she exposed to community during other times in her life? + Julia says no. + There are probably marketing meetups, but it’s unlikely they will share a repository to work on a project together as people in tech might. + The tech community is very different. + John mentions The Cathedral and the Bazaar paper by Eric Raymond about the structure of open-source software (the bazaar) and how it contrasted with the previous methods of developing software (represented by the cathedral). + On the surface it may seem like the makeup of the bazaar is many people with competing interests, but the uniqueness comes from the openness and sharing. + Law and marketing may not have anything akin to the open-source community because open source is more idea driven than profit or goal driven. + Maybe other professions or even multiple professions can organize communities around ideas in a similar manner. But on the surface, the legal and marketing professions don’t seem to have anything like what you see from an open-source community.
22:41 – Work Travel and Community Building* How does Julia manage this aspect of the job? Traveling for work is not as glamorous as people might think. + Julia does not fly first class. She has layovers and wait times at airports. + Arriving early somewhere requires her to wait to check in. + Julia is grateful to have the opportunity to travel and doesn’t focus on the hardships of that travel. Other people working in developer relations may complain about the need to travel, for example. * John mentioned the goal of teaching the people following behind you as a mitigating factor against the travel required for a job. + Many people think a role in tech marketing or developer relations is glamorous because you become “nerd famous.” + John says people might aspire to obtain the “nerd famous” part of this not understanding some of the things that can get you there – the drive to teach, the drive to educate, the desire to give back to a community (all part of investing in other people’s success). + “I totally agree with you. It’s about helping others, lifting others up because by lifting others up they are going to come with better ideas and then they’re going to share them with you…. If you’re selfish and you just focus on you, you can definitely build something. But if you share your ideas with others, they are gonna definitely improve that with you. I’m all for uplifting others, helping others, and not just keeping to myself. That’s why I think I’m so good at building communities and engaging with communities.” – Julia Furst Morgado + Julia’s intention is also to have interesting conversations and to help fix problems. It’s not about showing up and taking selfies with people. + The fame part that may come in this type of role from the type of exposure you get is not the fulfilling part. + Julia has people who follow her, see her in person, and may want to take a selfie with her. John mentions likely these are the people who are getting value from the content Julia has created and shared. + People can see that Julia is genuine and authentic. She feels like this is the reason people come to ask her for help. When people ask for help, Julia helps them. Other people can tell when you’re doing something just for the numbers to gain influence. + “I’m just another human like you. I write that on my blog posts. I struggled as well. If you want to reach out, I’ve been in your shoes.” – Julia Furst Morgado
27:26 – Global Technologist and Translator* Julia’s role is truly global in scope. * Remember Julia speaks 4 languages fluently (including English). + Julia’s mother’s family is French, and she studied in a French school in high school in Brazil. She also spoke French at home. + Julia speaks Portuguese because she was born in Brazil and Spanish after living in Spain for over a year. + Julia lives in New York but attends events all over North America and Canada. She also supports Latina America (the LATAM region) in her role. + Julia’s family now resides in Portugal. She visits them frequently and helps with the local AWS User Group when in town. + One of Julia’s proudest achievements is giving a presentation in Monaco in French. + Julia has not yet delivered a presentation in the APJ region, but maybe she can do it in 2025. * Does the desire to bring more business value into presentations align well with being a part of a product strategy team? + As part of the product strategy team, Julia and her colleagues talk frequently about product roadmaps, receive feedback on the functionalities they should add to the products in the near term and longer term, and discuss the business value of the solution. + Julia and her colleagues attend meetings with customers as thought leaders. In those discussions, someone like Julia would speak to the business value of Veeam’s solutions (i.e. value of backup, using deduplication and compression, having a disaster recovery plan, etc.). + Technical people may not be thinking about the big picture, but Julia and her colleagues bring a perspective on the big picture to customer meetings. * Do most members of the community not really know how to communicate with product teams in an effective way? + “Technical people, they know how to talk technical things. You have to translate it so product managers can understand and so other teams can understand as well…. Technical people…they don’t even realize that what they write, the way they speak, is too technical for other people…. I think some of my value is translating that into less technical terms.” – Julia Furst Morgado + Julia knows people who write very technical content. She shares the story of finding a blog post and not being able to follow some of it because it was too technical. Julia wrote a version of the same blog post breaking down the steps into more detail. + Communicating something in less technical terms is about explaining it in a way so that you meet the audience where they are. We can do this for customers, product managers, a beginner in a community trying to learn something new, etc. This is part of the reason Julia calls herself a bridge. * Does Julia have a blog post on CNCF projects and the order in which she might recommend people learn and understand them? + No, but Julia says it’s a great idea and is something she can work on in the future. + Julia loves feedback and ideas from her audience. John provides more context on what led him to ask the above question. Someone had asked John about Falco and Knative, and these projects probably are not where someone should start when thinking about cloud native. - Julia’s guidance is to start learning containers, maybe Docker, and then work up to Kubernetes. Tools like Falco and Knative are built on top of Kubernetes. - Getting to Kubernetes might make someone think twice about choosing to continue on this path because it is conceptually difficult.
33:21 – Parting Thoughts* The best way to follow up with Julia on this conversation is on LinkedIn. But if you connect with Julia on LinkedIn, be sure to send her a message and not just a random connection request. + Julia learned this from her boot camp. When you add someone on LinkedIn, you should send a message. It helps you remember where you met that person. + Julia is also on Twitter, Blue Sky, and others, but LinkedIn is the best way. You can find Julia’s blog here. * And if people are hesitant to jump in and join a community, what advice would Julia give them? + “Start with one person. Try to find one person that is in that community…. Got to them and say…‘I want to join. I’m new. What can I do? I’m a little overwhelmed.’ Be honest. Don’t be afraid of being vulnerable…. Try to find one person, and that person will probably help you, guide you, or put you in touch with the right person to get involved in a community.” – Julia Furst Morgado + Julia recently re-read a book by Brené Brown on vulnerability, and being new to a community requires a little vulnerability. + Find that bridge into a new community!
Mentioned in the Outro* Special shout out to Al Rasheed for recommending Julia be a guest! I hope you could hear the enthusiasm in that story like we could. * When Julia writes a blog post to help answer some frequently asked questions and shares it with people who reach out to her, it aligns with the idea of becoming hard to reach from our discussion of Deep Work in Episode 147. Having a document with the answers to common questions allows Julia to help more people. * If you’re looking for more stories of guests being involved in the open source community, check out these episodes: + Tom Hatch was the creator of Salt. - Episode 154 – Find a Balanced Life with Tom Hatch (1/2) - Episode 155 – An Open Source Career with Tom Hatch (2/2) + Max Kanat-Alexander did bug triage for the Bugzilla project before later working on it as a contributor and eventual maintainer. - Episode 285 – Contribute Back: Embracing the Open Source Spirit with Max Kanat-Alexander (1/3) - Episode 286 – Succession Planning: Delegation Skills and Technical Ownership with Max Kanat-Alexander (2/3) + Ken Collins is a self-taught programmer who eventually got into the open source community to boost his career. - Episode 241 – A Self-Taught Programmer’s Banyan Tree of Knowledge with Ken Collins (1/2) - Episode 242 – Modalities of the Staff and Principal Engineer with Ken Collins (2/2)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
What would you do with a free pass to a tech conference? Julia Furst Morgado had to decide whether to attend KubeCon without ever having been to a tech conference. After deciding to attend, she came back from the conference with a new perspective and a job offer. While this looks easy on the surface, there’s much more to the story.
In episode 311 we’re joined by global technologist Julia Furst Morgado. We’re going to explore Julia’s early career in law, the shift to marketing, and how that ultimately led her to the tech industry. Julia will tell us her reasons for attending a boot camp and how informational coffee chats and “hallway track” networking at tech conferences were instrumental in building her professional network. If you’ve heard the phrase “learning in public” but have never done it yourself, get ready for some inspiration from Julia’s story and tips on how you can get started helping the greater technical community.
Original Recording Date: 12-19-2024
Topics – Meet Julia Furst Morgado, Life before Tech, Learn in Public, Pursuing a Boot Camp and Building a Professional Network, Tech Conferences and the Hallway Track, Details on 100Devs2:37 – Meet Julia Furst Morgado* Julia Furst Morgado is a global technologist at Veeam. + Julia’s role is as a community-facing technical evangelist. She is heavily involved in the technical community and shares feedback with product managers to improve future product functionalities. + When new product releases happen, Julia also gives presentations, hosts webinars, and writes blogs to educate the technical community. + Though not directly part of her job, Julia organizes a number of events that benefit the greater technical community. + Would Julia’s role be classified as technical marketing? - A more appropriate classification would be developer advocacy or developer relations. - Julia works within the Office of the CTO, but many times these roles can sit within a marketing organization or even inside a sales organization (which ultimately depends on the company).
4:35 – Life before Tech* How did Julia get interested in technology in the first place? + Julia transitioned into the technology field about 2 years ago and has achieved a great deal in a short time. + Julia is from Brazil and was born in Sao Palo and went to law school there. Julia had a sister studying law, and not knowing what she wanted to do after high school, Julia pursued law as well. + Julia later moved to the US after getting a student visa and studied business at the University of California at Berkeley. She went on to work in marketing as a marketing manager at an MSP (managed service provider). + Before working for the MSP, Julia never would have considered a transition into technology. - Working with the engineers at the MSP taught Julia quite a bit. As the only marketing person at the MSP, she had to do a number of things. - “It sparked that want to be more technical. And during the pandemic I got laid off, and I did a coding boot camp. And that’s how I transitioned into tech.” – Julia Furst Morgado, on working for an MSP as the spark that got her interested in tech * What did Julia not like about law? + Julia describes the law field as a different world. People wear jeans and t-shirts at technology conferences, but you won’t find that in the legal field. People wear suits and are very formal just like we see on Netflix and other television shows. + “I worked at an office that was very toxic, and I just decided that’s not what I want. And to begin with, I wasn’t even sure…that I liked law.” – Julia Furst Morgado, on pursuing a career in law + Julia then moved to the US to study business, feeling it would open up a number of possibilities for her. * What specifically drew Julia to marketing? + Julia is a very creative person and recently heard from someone she might have giftedness. + During her business studies in school, the marketing classes challenged Julia to find alternative ways to solve problems, and she really liked that aspect. Julia pursued a job in marketing right after finishing her business studies. + After starting the marketing role at the MSP, Julia worked with software engineers, IT support, and people in DevOps focused roles. + Julia was tasked with rebuilding the MSP’s website, creating white papers, and writing corporate blogs. She also worked with SEO (search engine optimization) and analytics. - All of this ended up being relatable experience for what Julia does now as a global technologist. - “I had to be in contact with engineers to make sure what I was writing was correct…. Because I’m so curious I would always go to them and ask more questions and research on Google and go down the rabbit hole on something…. My job was…write that blog post. Don’t learn about that technology. Just write the blog post. But I did indeed….” – Julia Furst Morgado, on spending extra time to learn technology even when she was a marketer - The extra time Julia spent learning was not wasted. It provided her with a background of knowledge. Learning at a deeper level prevented the content Julia was creating from being superficial.
11:16 – Learn in Public* Julia’s job as a marketer was heavily focused on writing and creating content. + We’ve advocated on the show for people to blog about the things they are learning. It sounded like Julia was able to do that as a job. + When Julia started the boot camp, she learned the term “learn in public” or “learning in public.” She cites a blog post that details the idea. + “Whatever you’re learning…share it with others because it builds credibility. One, you’re teaching others. You learn it even better. So I applied this concept, and I would share it on social media. I created a blog, and I also created not one, not two, not three, but four YouTube channels because I speak four languages and wanted to do one YouTube in each language.” – Julia Furst Morgado + Julia stresses the importance of being consistent in creating content and sharing it. + “I started creating a lot of content, since the beginning, without being afraid of showing…my weaknesses. I think this is important…. Everyone should write or do a live stream or YouTube. It doesn’t necessarily have to be written content. There are other alternatives.” – Julia Furst Morgado + People are fearful of showing that they are not an expert in a specific topic area. Regardless of your level of expertise, the content you create can help others who are learning and are not at the same level as you. + John references Show Your Work by Austin Kleon. Many times people want to learn from someone who has not mastered a topic but someone who is documenting the journey of gaining expertise over time (starting from novice, for example, to competence and beyond). - Documenting the journey can give someone an authentic voice because you are writing for an audience, even if that audience is only you. Perhaps you can also find a community of others from which to learn along the way. * Did Julia like to write when part of her job as a marketer was writing blogs for the MSP? + She did not like it. The content was marketing and very salesy. Julia did not feel it was authentic. + “Nowadays I write a different type of content…more authentic – what I think about the tool, the challenges I’m facing…. Now I write the real deal, the real thing.” – Julia Furst Morgado + Julia likes to write about the things she’s passionate about, and it allows her to be more authentic. + People may not know what their authentic voice is or the way in which they prefer to write until they are in the midst of the writing process. - This is an indirect reference to the phrase “writing is thinking” from Episode 156 with guest Josh Duffney. + “You can only find out by doing it. People get stuck in that planning phase, and they never execute. And I’ve been there…. We will only find our voice. We will only find the topics that we want to create content or to write about if we start.” – Julia Furst Morgado, on creating content + Julia wants to start a podcast and right now is in the planning phase for it. + Julia encourages people to start creating some kind of content, even if it isn’t perfect. * When Julia began writing blogs and sharing her content, was there a pressure to keep doing it because it was done “in public?” + Julia feels like there is pressure once you start sharing content on social media, especially if people find it valuable. When someone re-shares something you wrote or sends you a message telling you it is helpful, it can make you feel like you should do more. + Julia encourages us to be consistent with our content. If you are releasing something once per week and for some reason miss a week, people may decide to place their attention elsewhere. + The consistency in creating content needs to be something that is sustainable for you. You don’t need a blog post every day. Julia suggests starting off with a target of once per month. * How did Julia’s skills in digital marketing shape the way she approached sharing content on social media? + Julia writes with her audience in mind. Her intention is to solve a problem for the audience. + She always includes a call to action (or CTA) at the end. This may encourage people to comment, like the content, or attend an event for example. + Julia structures her post in a way that people will want to read it. Writing in a single block isn’t as easy on the eyes. People might not read your post based solely on this format choice. + Blog posts should start with a “hook” to get the reader’s attention. You should follow this same guidance for social media posts. On LinkedIn, for example, only a couple of sentences show up with a link for people to “read more.” Will your first 2 sentences be powerful enough to make people want to know more?
20:56 – Pursuing a Boot Camp and Building a Professional Network* While working for the MSP, Julia was already looking at boot camps in New York City. A boot camp can cost $10,000 or more, which Julia was willing to pay. * Julia wanted to learn technical skills and software development. At around this same time she was laid off from her role at the MSP. * Julia saw a post on Reddit about someone starting a boot camp in January 2022. It would be live streamed and focused on web development (JavaScript, Node.js, React, etc.). + She attended the live stream twice per week for 3 hours. The instructor had office hours and required homework. + “The thing is the boot camp wasn’t just a coding boot camp. He said his goal was to get us a job in tech, our first job in tech.” – Julia Furst Morgado, on the uniqueness of the boot camp she joined and the instructor’s goal + As part of the homework for the boot camp, Julia and other attendees were required to do coffee chats with others in the industry. They were to reach out to people already working in the tech industry to ask for a 15-minute coffee chat. + Julia conducted over 100 coffee chats during this time, and she built a professional network. She kept a spreadsheet to track the people she spoke with and notes on the conversation for future reference. + “And I built my network very easily. Because when you’re starting out, and you show people you’re putting in the effort, they will help you. They won’t help you if you just say, ‘I want a job. Can you give me a referral?’ …If they show you that they’re putting in the work, yes, I’ll give you 15 minutes of my day to tell you about how I got here where I am and give you some advice. And that’s what I did, more than 100 times.” – Julia Furst Morgado, on doing coffee chats with other technologists as part of a boot camp assignment + How many of the coffee chats ended after 15 minutes? - Most of the conversations ended up being longer than 15 minutes. Julia says she was able to find mentors through these coffee chats. Most people were very open to speaking with her. - Three of the coffee chats became recurring coffee chats. - Most of the coffee chats were with men. Julia advocates for helping and supporting more women in tech, just as she had supporters and many people who encouraged her during this process. - “It was great. It was amazing. And I hadn’t seen that in marketing or law. This I think is more particular to tech. Because of open source people want to collaborate and help each other to achieve the same goal. They don’t mind telling you what they did, their path to success…. It’s one more that is going to help the cause or collaborate together. That’s one of the things I love about tech.” – Julia Furst Morgado * Did anyone give Julia advice on career options in tech before she attended the boot camp? + “No…. I went to the boot camp thinking mostly that tech was software engineering.” – Julia Furst Morgado + Even though she had worked with IT Support and DevOps folks at the MSP, Julia thought to say you worked in tech meant you were a software engineer. She learned there is so much more than that under the tech umbrella. + In the coffee chats Julia spoke to software engineers, program managers, DevOps engineers, platform engineers, data analysts, etc. from an array of different companies of various sizes (including large companies and startups). + During this process, Julia was learning about different job roles and what those entailed. But until she worked with some of the tools needed to do these types of jobs, Julia did not know which one might be best suited for her. + Julia tried building websites and decided she did not like front-end work. After working with APIs, she found she did not like back-end work or even full stack work. Julia enjoyed working with cloud technologies from AWS and eventually gravitated toward Kubernetes. It was her network that took her there. * Julia shares the story of someone she met on social media in the greater tech community. This person gave her a lot of guidance and advice and then a free ticket to KubeCon. + Julia was presented with the free ticket while she was still doing the boot camp. + “And by the way, I wasn’t sure if I should go because I thought it would distract me from software development. My other mentors…they said, ‘Julia, go for it. The homework you have for the boot camp…you can do it after or before. But go. This is a great opportunity.’ I went, and I met a lot of people. I saw there is a different world besides software development – DevOps and platform engineering and infrastructure…all of that. The community is amazing there.” – Julia Furst Morgado + At the conference, Julia met Michael Cade (a now colleague at Veeam who she knew only from Twitter then) in person. Michael said he wanted Julia to come work on his team. + Veeam had a booth and a number of events at the conference. Julia spent a day going to all the Veeam events and talking to a lot of people. Michael wanted Julia to come work at Veeam and put her in touch with the hiring manager. + “I had two interviews. They weren’t technical. It was more like a chat. He wanted to get to know me. And I got the job.” – Julia Furst Morgado
29:44 – Tech Conferences and the Hallway Track* While getting the job at Veeam might have looked easy, Julia had put in the work to develop a background in advance. + Julia’s social media presence and the willingness to learn in public is part of what made others want to invest in her (i.e. the free conference pass). * During the second interview, Julia told the hiring manager she had never worked with backup, servers, infrastructure, or hardware. + “It’s ok. We can teach you that. But we can’t teach someone this hunger to learn and adaptability. You take initiative. We don’t need to hold your hand to teach you something.” – hiring manager to Julia Furst Morgado + Julia calls the above the soft skills. While technical skills are important, soft skills are very important as well. * John says learning in public can often be individual and solo. Learning at a conference is learning in a group or learning from someone broadcasting information in a session. What thoughts does Julia have about the contrast in learning styles? + “When I go to conferences, I don’t learn a lot. I learn after I get home from conferences because at conferences, I focus on networking…. It’s basically just meeting people and building those relationships.” – Julia Furst Morgado + When at home…Julia will study, work on personal projects, read books, or watch YouTube videos. When she is at a conference, Julia will talk about what she is learning and ask people for help if needed. + Julia has a lot of friends in the tech industry now. She’s seen them multiple times at events and will comment on their posts. + After coming back from a conference, Julia will watch announcements and recorded sessions from the conference to catch up, learn, and put things into practice. + At conferences, Julia would advise listeners to focus on networking (or the “hallway track”). You can go to sessions if you would like to meet the speaker in person or ask specific questions. + John says some people may have trouble with the hallway track due to introversion, but he has seen a number of people attack the hallway track with some vigor. + Julia says this is part of developing soft skills like effective communication. + Many people in tech may be shy or introverted. You have to learn to talk to other people by doing it. Julia says we can practice at the grocery store by talking to the cashier. It’s a small step toward meeting new people at a conference. * After getting the free conference pass, did someone give Julia advice on how to approach the conference? + No. Julia came up with what she did at the conference on her own. + “I didn’t know what to expect. I was shocked at the beginning. It was so big. I think there were…around 10,000 people. I didn’t know anyone.” – Julia Furst Morgado + Julia went to the booths and conference events. Someone she knew introduced her to someone else, and it went on from there. + Julia enjoys talking with people, and it was easy for her to meet a lot of people. + By the second day Julia felt pretty comfortable. + “I didn’t know what Kubernetes was yet. I was trying to understand, but Kubernetes is very hard. But I knew people and they were willing to help me…. That’s what I love about tech.” – Julia Furst Morgado
36:29 – Details on 100Devs* Is the boot camp someone can do on their own time, or does it depend? + The free boot camp Julia did was put on by Leon Noel is called 100Devs. See also the main 100Devs site. + Check out Julia’s videos on 100Devs below. Her advice after being asked by many people is get started, and keep going. Do not stop when things get hard! - Free Coding Bootcamp – 100Devs - Everything you need to know about 100Devs.
Mentioned in the Outro* Special shout out to former guest Al Rasheed for recommending we have Julia on the show! * The coffee chats were a great idea for professional networking. In in these 15-minute discussions (many of which went longer than that), you are interviewing the person about their experience, the tools they use, what they are learning, and what their job is like. + This goes well with Ramzi Marjaba’s advice on professional networking in Episode 307 – Sales Skills: Professional Networking and Continued Practice with Ramzi Marjaba (1/2). + Tracking the coffee chats was a great idea to remember who Julia spoke with and their area of specialty. * Talking to many people and getting advice from all of them might make one wonder which path to take in the tech industry. Julia had to do some tinkering with different tools before uncovering an interest in cloud technologies and Kubernetes. Julia decided to learn these in public. Is there something new you want to learn? + Maybe it’s something in your area, outside your area, or just something that is interesting. It could be a certification you want to get. + Suppose you book a certification test and take a course to help you study (with plenty of time to complete it). But as you work through it, consider documenting the following items in blog form to share as evidence of learning in public: - Why you chose this area / what interested you in the first place - The notes you took on hard concepts or some of the items you learned in the process - Whether your preparation was adequate for the exam / if you would have prepared differently if you did it all over again - If pursuing the certification made you want to go deeper in the area or revealed it wasn’t as interesting as you thought + Maybe you publish 1, 2, or 3 posts. It’s a small start to learning in public that can help others and help you at the same time. And it’s not a huge commitment to create content. It’s worth thinking about! - This is proof of work and proof of learning. It also shows your thinking process.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
Does a successful consulting career mean you should only work for yourself? David Klee insists you first need to become a skilled consultant with the right kind of reputation. In episode 310, part two of our focused discussion on the nuances of consulting, we dive into the realities—and the pros and cons—of contracting, working full-time for a consulting firm, and the independence of running your own business. These represent 3 of the 4 ways someone could work as a consultant. Building on last week’s conversation about what makes a great consultant, we discuss the importance of developing a reputation and some tips for how to do it. David also shares his approach to assessing consulting talent, highlighting the key traits that make a consultant stand out. And we’ll also hear why, after 11 years owning a consulting firm, David can’t see himself doing anything else.
Original Recording Date: 12-18-2024
David Klee is the founder of a niche consulting company called Heraflux Technologies. If you missed part 1 of this discussion with David, check out Episode 309.
Topics – Contract Work as a Consultant, Working for a Consulting Only Firm, Starting a Consulting Firm / Doing Your Own Thing, Keeping Consulting Enjoyable2:25 – Contract Work as a Consultant* Another way to do consulting work is to be a contractor. How does this work differently than full-time employment? + Full-time employment could be 1 project for 40 hours per week, but it is unlikely. It will more often be a certain number of hours per day working on a few (or even several) different projects. - “Things just kind of float to where you’re juggling anywhere from 3 or 4 to 20 projects at the same time. A contract is going to be a tightly defined scope for a block of time for either per day, per week, whatever. And it’s going to run a duration such as 2 months, 6 months, a year…something like that where you’re able to refine what you do. It’s generally speaking going to be a task or a set of tasks, and that’s what you do.” – David Klee, contrasting being a consultant working full-time for an employer that does more than just consulting with being a contractor + A project you work on as a contractor is controlled. You know when it starts, what to expect, and when it ends. - A contractor has to line up the next project once one ends. Knowing the endpoint can help you understand when it’s time to begin looking for the next project. - Contracting might allow focusing or going deeper on the work you are tasked to do instead of getting too broad. David gives the example of needing to build a data warehouse for a specific ERP system within 6 months. - David says contract work is safe and sustainable. In fact, one of the first projects after David started Heraflux was a contract engagement which required travel to Connecticut and working 5 days per week at a customer location for 6 months. * Where can people find contract job openings? Are these on company websites, on LinkedIn, only available through headhunters, etc.? + David says it works best if you can go through a headhunting entity. Companies may post contract positions on LinkedIn or popular job sites, but a headhunter can evaluate someone’s skill set and share a set of projects that align to that skill set. The candidate can then select which projects they would like to interview for, and the interview may be with the headhunter, with the end customer, or possibly both. + “It’s a way where instead of you looking (and there may be phantom jobs or people just fishing for who is out there) the headhunter is usually going to be a lot more serious. If it’s through a headhunter, the right might be a little lower than if you would go direct; however, the headhunter might also be able to provide you healthcare…and that goes a long, long way…. There are some benefits like that that really do help.” – David Klee, on contract work through headhunters - A headhunting firm could potentially provide the healthcare benefits for 6 months or 12 months while you are working on a project so you don’t have to look for it yourself. - The headhunting firm may also be able to handle tax withholdings from your paycheck so you don’t have to handle it after the fact. Contract workers would likely be paid via a 1099 form in the United States. + What type of headhunters should people who want to do contract work seek out? Are there big names to be aware of? - There are national chains that do this as well as regional and local. Each one will have benefits. - A national chain may be more likely to offer you interviews for projects that require air travel to a customer location each week. - Regional headhunting firms may have some travel, but you can easily get a feel for their reputation. You can speak to people who have worked with them as contractors as well as companies who have worked with them. This can help you get an idea as to whether the firm is a fit for what you want to do as well as a cultural and a people fit. - “The national chains will almost certainly have more opportunities. You may have to travel for it. The regional stuff you’ll be able to get to know them a little bit better, and after enough time they may actually know to call you if they have a project of a certain type…. And there’s no reason to say you only have to work with one headhunter.” – David Klee, on contracting and working with headhunting firms * David mentions he has gotten to know a number of good firms in the Omaha and Lincoln, Nebraska area. * When a project ends and the headhunting firm you have been working with doesn’t have more projects that fit you, nothing is stopping you from working with a different firm. * Working with the headhunting firm can help spread your reputation to multiple end customers because of the reach of the firm. * Would a headhunting firm or end customer pay for travel if you are working on a contract basis, or would the contractor need to pay for it themselves? + David says it should be that someone else pays for the travel, but this can work in many different ways. - Sometimes the headhunting firm may book all your travel arrangements as part of any travel you do. If this happens, beware of getting placed in very inexpensive accommodations. - Sometimes you may be given a travel budget, and it’s up to you to figure out how to use it. Exceeding that budget would come out of your own pocket, but if you come in under budget you may get to keep the difference. * Some people may do contract work as a side gig in addition to their full-time job in the form of moonlighting. + David says you have to ensure your contract for your full-time job does not prohibit you from doing this kind of thing. + For some full-time employers, doing extra work on the side is not a problem as long as there’s no conflict of interest. + “…The side stuff should never get in the way of the full-time job…. Some companies out there, including some big ones, they’ll let you moonlight as long as you disclose it and as long as there’s no chance that it could ever conflict and hurt the mission of the full-time job.” – David Klee, on doing part-time contract work in addition to your full-time job + David says moonlighting is a great way to gain experience consulting, but you need to make sure no one expects you to be available during normal business hours. This can be challenging as many companies might want things fixed during the day. - David gives the examples of database index tuning and custom programming that should be fine to work on after hours. But you should always make sure the company you’re moonlighting is ok with your hours of availability. * What about the stability and volume of contract work during difficult economic times? + Contract work according to David will ebb and flow usually with what the economy is doing. + In difficult times, companies will pause projects that involve outside contractors or maybe just slow them down / decrease the hours. + David cites a customer he worked with who leveraged contractors and consultants for 75% of the IT workforce. During tough times this company would pause or suspend the projects, making sure they never had to lay off full-time employees. + Being on a time-bound project as a contractor does not protect you from difficult economic times. Companies can still pause the project or end it. + “A lot of people I knew were on contracts during 9/11. And boom. A lot changed, and these projects were just done. Within a couple of days a whole bunch of stuff changed, and a lot of people were out of work. Now it didn’t last that long for them thankfully. But, there’s always a clause in there that says these contracts can be terminated at will.” – David Klee, on contract work + David shares the story of leading some SQL Server migration projects for a large airline and the changes that happened when the pandemic hit in 2020. - “I get an e-mail at 10 o’clock in the morning saying, ‘stop what you’re doing. Document everything you can through the end of the day. That’s it.’ …Because the airlines shutdown, it was cost savings panic mode, and every external project with external people suspended immediately.” – David Klee * How do hiring managers for full-time roles look at candidates who have done a lot of contracting? + David doesn’t see someone doing contract work as a bad thing, but it depends. + He would want to know why the person was choosing to go back to full-time work somewhere. Did the person get a poor reputation from doing contract work, or do they just want benefits like healthcare, paid time off, a 401K, etc.? - “Those are a lot of reasons why a lot of folks get out of consulting and go back to being an FTE. There’s stability. There’s job security. There’s benefits. If you’re tired of the constant churn of different projects, you now have a controlled environment, and you know what you’re working with there. And there is nothing wrong with that.” – David Klee * How is the interview process for contract work different from full-time employment? Is it shorter? + David says usually it is shorter, but it also depends. + Interviewing for a full-time role might be 5 or 6 interviews because the company wants to make sure you’re a cultural fit in addition to just being a technical fit. + When interviewing contractors, people might be more concerned about the ability to get the job done rather than the cultural fit. When interviewing for a contract role proof of competency and ability to get the job done are going to be the most important things. - David says the contractor may have 2 interviews as opposed to 3, 4, or 5. + Thanks to his reputation for doing good work in the industry, David’s average interview / pre-sales call is 30 to 60 minutes. After that it’s either a fit or it isn’t (on both sides). - “People know what we do, and by the time it gets to us, they know we’re qualified for what they’re going to ask us to do. The question is…how long is it going to take? When are we going to start? Thankfully, after being in business 11 years, we’ve finally gotten to that point where we can say…we can do this, and you know we can because you know us.” – David Klee, on developing a reputation
17:14 – Working for a Consulting Only Firm* Another option for people who want to do consulting is to work for an established consulting firm (i.e. a company whose sole business is to do consulting). Are there things to look for in a consulting firm to work for? + Talk to people in your professional network about the firm’s reputation in the industry. + David would also recommend speaking with consultants who work there already (i.e. future teammates). + David would advise considering the following questions. Some may be the same as what we have previously discussed, but some are very different. - Are current employees of the firm happy? - Are projects a “bait and switch” approach or are they completed to meet and exceed expectations of everyone involved (customers, consulting firm employees, etc.)? - What is the caliber of the firm’s customers? What size companies are they, and can the client hold up their end of any project? - What kind of travel is required? - Will you need to serve as part of an on-call rotation? - What’s the breadth of customers you should expect to work with, and how many projects should you expect to work on in a given week? If this firm does remotely managed services, for example, you could be working with 20 different customers in a single day. Are you ok with context switching like this? - Are you responsible in any way for pre-sales as well as delivery / post-sales? What does the split look like? - What will you be expected to do? * Is working for a consulting firm in one specific niche ideal, or should someone target a consulting firm servicing many areas? + “If a consulting company has a super tight niche, are they changing with the times? It gets really interesting. If the company has enough business to do XYZ and that is all they do and then some revolutionary technology comes out of the woodwork…guess what? They’re done.” – David Klee - David shares the story of someone he knew in college who was a talented Adobe Flash programmer and didn’t want to learn anything else. + David mentions being on-call 24/7/365 for most of his employers (including holidays). - Ask a consulting firm where you might want to work how hard they push this and what constitutes an after hours call. - If you take a vacation, will they call you while you’re on vacation? Are you expected to check e-mail on vacation? + What will the firm do to help keep your technical skills current? - Do they want you to get certifications? - Will they send you to conferences? - Will you be given time each week for professional development? - Some firms might just expect you to keep up with the technology on your own but may not encourage it or support it, while others may be very good in this area. - David knows many people in the SQL Server community who would support someone attending a conference or a SQL Saturday and ensuring that person can be present to learn and network with people (i.e. the workload would be covered by others at the firm). - “They benefit. You benefit. You’re happier. You’re not going to jump ship to somebody else that’s going to do this.” – David Klee, on training and professional development + Could training employees / allowing them to get certifications be looked at as just making them more expensive? - David says the firm can justify billing more for a person because the person has increased capabilities. * Do consultants have insight into how much the consulting firm is charging compared to how much the consultant makes? + David says this is rare. + “When I was consulting for somebody else, I would always see the technical details of the paperwork. I would never see the money side. You knew what companies were capable of charging. You never knew what they were actually doing.” – David Klee + There is another layer. The company you work for may be a subcontractor to another company. The markup to the end customer of your company’s services can be considerable. * Is it a safer choice to work for a company whose main business is consulting (i.e. it’s not just something they do in addition to selling technology)? + David says it depends. + “If you’re working for a company whose sole mission is consulting, that’s their revenue stream. If you’re working for a company who sells software and then consults on the software, if things slow down, they still have the revenue stream from selling the software…. So that’s the safer route. However, if a company is solely purposes with selling you and they’re good and the rates are reasonable and they know how to market, you shouldn’t be concerned…because they should have enough…to say, ‘if we don’t have a project for you for a couple weeks, it’s ok. We’ve got the money banked, and we’ve got another one coming soon.’” – David Klee * Is there a natural progression for the consultant through the options we’ve discussed so far? + David doesn’t see people move away from roles at companies that do more than just consulting very often. + Usually, those folks who do contract work tend to enjoy it and consistently move on to the next contract without too much trouble. + If you are a consultant working for a company that only does consulting, there are a couple of paths forward: - Progress through the ranks and outgrowing consulting - Those who get tired of the grind will likely go to contracting, to a full-time employer somewhere, or choose to do their own thing / start their own business.
25:14 – Starting a Consulting Firm / Doing Your Own Thing* When should you seek to go out on your own? Is it only if some of the other options aren’t possible? + “I would say you should do one of the other 3 to prepare you to be a consultant for yourself.” – David Klee + Owning your own consulting firm juggling multiple projects means you are responsible for everything – pre-sales, delivery, marketing, paperwork, and much more. + Projects may not last as long as if you were doing contract work. You need to be ready for this as a consulting firm owner. + David says you have to know how to talk, how to sell, how to deliver, and how to upsell. - “You need to know where your next project is coming from.” – David Klee - David tells us upselling is not to be taken in the used car salesman sense. It’s about spotting legitimate problems within the realm of your expertise and pointing them out to your customer. - “It’s other problems that you can solve that you know how to do, and you have to know how to say, ‘I’m better than the other people at being able to solve this problem. And I already know you. I already know your environment. I’m better suited to solve this because I’m already here.” – David Klee, on upselling + When people like the work David’s firm has done, they call them back for return projects. Because he trains people to solve their own problems internally, a customer generally does not call him back for the same problem. - This goes back to reputation. - “But the hard part is…how do you get the reputation? Consult for somebody else. Get the contracts, and get to know people. And put yourself out there…. The biggest fallacy is that you might be good at something technically. And a lot of people…I don’t know where they get it from, but they seem to think that they can just hang a sign on their front door that says ‘I’m good and I’m open for business’ and that people will just come flooding in…. It unfortunately doesn’t work like that…. That’s what a lot of folks think, and then they go 6 months and they’re barely making minimum wage or less. People run into trouble with that, and it’s tough…. I’m good. I know what I’m doing. Why can’t I get the projects? People don’t know that you’re there.” – David Klee, on going into business when you don’t have an established reputation + Doing presentations and going to user groups is good marketing just as we discussed earlier. Nick encourages people who have been laid off to attend user groups to build connections with new people. - David mentions he recently won a project because someone remembered a presentation he gave several years ago at a SQL Saturday event. This was about word-of-mouth reputation. * If I’m a consulting firm owner who has developed a reputation and needs to expand the firm by hiring more people, is it more attractive to hire contractors or full-time employees? + David says it varies. You need to consider your project flow and revenue first. Do you have enough to support bringing someone on board and to train them to do the project work needed? + Can you find someone with the skills you need, and can you charge enough to afford the person? Will you have enough to pay for the person if at any point you do not have enough work to keep them busy? - “Take whatever you think you make. The employer is paying about 40% more between healthcare and taxes and all that stuff. They’ve got to be able to cover that bill, and some people are not cheap.” – David Klee + David has developed a ring of contractors and consultants he works with now (meaning the paperwork is in place to do so as schedules allow). Though the cost is more per hour for these people, he does not have to pay to keep them on the bench as full-time employees if there are no projects for them. - David did try the full-time employee approach at first, but people were recruited away. - The other side of this is David cannot dictate a contractor’s time like he could a full-time employee. - If the projects that you work on are flexible, David tells us there are a lot of independent subcontractors who are really good. But it also goes back to who you know that does the type of work fitting the help you need. * What is David looking for in contractors and consultants who work for / with him? + “I look for people that genuinely love what they do. It shows in the work.” – David Klee + David likes to ask people things like: - How much of your free time is spent keeping up with technology? - What was the last new technology you picked up and learned, and how long did it take you? And why did you do it? - What kind of a home test lab do you have? - Name people in the industry who publicize how-tos and training videos and blog posts. - “Tell me the last time you did a technical presentation. What was the topic? How many people were there? Did you enjoy it? What did you learn from doing the presentation? What could you have done better on the presentation? And when are you giving it again so I can watch you do it?” – David Klee - A video link of you doing a technical presentation is a great thing to have ready to share with someone! - How long have you been working in this? - Why are you in this industry? Is it something you enjoy? + “It’s that want to know, the want to fix, the drive to do better and learn and grow and contribute. That’s what I look for.” – David Klee, on what to look for in consultants he would hire or work with + Has David spoken to anyone who struggled to articulate why they enjoy working in this industry or why they work as a consultant? - David says yes. - “If they can’t tell me why they want to be or stay as a consultant, it tells me they may not be really invested into it. So, they are just there on a 9 to 5 basis. For some jobs, that’s perfectly fine. It really is. If I need an operations person to keep the lights on, keep stuff running, that’s fine. But if I need somebody to say, ‘we’ve always done it this way, but here’s a new way. And it’s a better way. And I figured out how to do this.’ That’s what I want…. Do you enjoy finding a better way? I think that’s the one succinct statement I can say right there that makes a great consultant instead of a good consultant.” – David Klee
35:47 – Keeping Consulting Enjoyable* After all of his experience in consulting and now after owning a business for many years, how does David keep the enjoyment despite the stress and all the obligations? + David likes doing new things and gets bored easily. + “As a consultant, you can choose to spend non-billable time that’s business oriented.” – David Klee - When there is an emerging trend or technology, David can spend time learning to deepen his expertise. - David gives the example of clearing his calendar for 2 weeks to go deeper in some specific technologies. A full-time employee is unlikely to get this type of opportunity. The consultant can use the learning to widen his reach and to provide more value to customers. - “To be able to say here’s a new technology; I think it could compliment what I do and adapt and grow and broaden what I do and sharpen what I do…. The more you know, the more you know the failings and the positive things about the stuff that you already do. Database technologies, infrastructure, cloud…they are more tools for the toolbox. It makes you a better consultant….” – David Klee + David can also say no as the owner of his consulting firm. He can avoid accepting projects which are not a good fit or are destined to fail. - “The consultant…you can say no. The contractor…you may have to work out the remainder of the contract, but you know it will end at some point. Being an FTE or a consultant for somebody else…you may be kind of stuck…which, that’s difficult.” – David Klee - “If you’re willing to put in the effort and work it and it works, you’re doing this for you. You’re not doing it for somebody else…. It’s a massive shift, and it’s not why you want do it. But at the same time, if it works, that is a good motivator…. You’re the one building the reputation for you. You’re the one building the professional contacts that stick with you through thick and thin. It’s for you. And you and enjoy it. And you can’t trade that for anything.” – David Klee - Working for yourself means you don’t bring on the wrong person, don’t bring on the wrong project, and you don’t keep customers who are not a good fit for you. - “The biggest power you have is you can say no. It’s empowering. It builds confidence. It strengthens your convictions on why you continue to do this. Because after being in business for 11 years and being in consulting for 14, will I ever go back to working for anybody else? No way. I’m having too much fun.” – David Klee - David recounts the story of recently saying no to a customer. It can be unexpected and hard to hear. * If David could go back and do it all over again, would he still go into business for himself? + David says yes – without hesitation. + He also might have done it a couple of years earlier. + “I’m having too much fun. I know it sounds cliché, but most of my day is solving problems for folks…. Call me weird. I know we’re unsung heroes in IT, all of us. I get a personal thrill out of being able to make that kind of a difference. Even if it’s saving somebody ten grand on database licensing or making this report that they have to run every single day over lunch…to be able to make that run quick…they curse the machine less and they can do more of the job that they enjoy. And that’s fun. I thoroughly enjoy that.” – David Klee - David shares some examples of the ways he has made a difference in the lives of his customers -fixing a recent SQL Server performance problem, helping a customer save millions on licensing, making improvements that added to the valuation of a company, etc. * If you want to follow up with David on this conversation, you can + Visit Heraflux.com. + Visit DavidKlee.net. + Connect with / contact David on LinkedIn – davidaklee.
Mentioned in the Outro* The way David assesses consulting talent, especially those he might work with as contractors, was extremely interesting. + Asking about why someone does what they do and how much they enjoy the work gives you insight into whether this person is likely to remain valuable in our industry over time. The consulting firm owner wants to work with people who will continue to be valuable over time. + Try asking some of these questions of a co-worker. What are they learning, and why are they in this industry? * David talked a little bit about upselling. This is not something exclusive to selling a product or service. Full-time employees of any company do this all the time. + Think about the last time you added to the scope of a project because it was interesting or you spotted something that needed to be fixed. + We might do this to provide more value to the company, to show we’re taking initiative, or something to help you gain expertise in a new area. We might need to sell the idea of spending more time or resources on something to our management, especially if we’re not usually in control of our workload. - Remember to provide details on what will be done and the value something will provide (i.e. decrease risk, increase revenue, etc.). * If you’re looking for more stories of those who have pursued consulting, check out our website’s consultant tag, or listen to some of these recommended episodes: + Tad Reeves had a lot of experience doing contract work and spoke to us about the things he liked as well as how there came a time in which it no longer fit with his life circumstances. Check out [Episode 297 – Consulting and Content Management: Blinking Lights and Big Impacts with Tad Reeves (2/3)(https://nerd-journey.com/consulting-and-content-management-blinking-lights-and-big-impacts-with-tad-reeves-2-3/). + Marni Coffey shared her experience as a consultant, spoke to the glamour of consulting, and shared why she didn’t like it. But we also found that this made her a better leader later in her career. Check out Episode 278 – Uncovering Empathy: The Greatest Skill of an Inclusive Leader with Marni Coffey (1/3). + Both Dale McKay and Erik Gross shared their respective thoughts on the role of a consultant and how to be successful. Check out these episodes: - Episode 289 – Enhance Your Personal Brand: Feedback as a Catalyst for Change with Dale McKay (2/2) - Episode 295 – AI and Automation: Repeatable Patterns for Learning, Consulting, and Growth with Erik Gross (2/2) + Justin Kelly has experience doing contract work, moonlighting, and is a business owner like David. - Episode 271 -Moonlight Business Ownership: Inside and Outside the Hurt Locker with Justin Kelly (2/2) + Abby Clobridge was another recent guest who owns a consulting firm. She has some great thoughts on what it means to take a consultative approach in these episodes. - Episode 292 – Library Science: Information Architecture and the Synthesis of Details with Abby Clobridge (1/2) - Episode 293 – Enterprise Knowledge Management: A Consultative Approach to Solving the Right Problems with Abby Clobridge (2/2)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
What does it mean to be a consultant? We’ve explored the consultant role as part of the career path of previous guests, but this episode kicks off a focused two-part discussion on the nuances of consulting. In this first part of the discussion, episode 309, returning guest David Klee shares practical insights for managing business travel, enhancing communication skills, and excelling in the consulting profession. He explains how great consultants adjust the information they communicate (and the level of detail) to resonate with people in different roles within an organization. Whether you’re considering consulting, already in the field, or collaborating with consultants, this conversation has actionable advice that can help.
Original Recording Date: 12-18-2024
Topics – David Klee Returns, Focusing on the Consultant Role, Consulting as a Career Path, Job Descriptions and Interview Advice, Travel Expectations and Being Productive, Working for a Company with a Consulting Arm, Presentations and Communication Skills2:23 – David Klee Returns* David Klee is the founder of a niche consulting company called Heraflux Technologies. They do performance tuning and availability architectures for SQL Server and everything underneath. This spans on-premises, in the cloud, virtual, and physical instances. David has worked on some of the biggest SQL Servers in the world. * This discussion series is meant to be focused on the life of a consultant. If you missed the previous episodes, we recorded with David that include his origin story in technology, check out these discussions: + Episode 119 – Tinkering into Specialty with David Klee (1/2) + Episode 120 – A Time to Build with David Klee (2/2)
3:22 – Focusing on the Consultant Role* We’ve heard the term consultant used in many different interviews and contexts. How would David define what a consultant is? + “I have a whimsical definition of it. A contractor is somebody you tell what to do. A consultant is somebody that tells you what to do.” – David Klee, on the definition of a consultant + Hire a consultant to solve a problem you do not know how to fix, engineer something you’re uncertain of, or to handle tasks you may not have the skills in-house to do. Some of these tasks might be routine health checks, platform assessments, etc. + We may have worked in an environment daily for many years, but a consultant brings the unique background experience of working across many environments over time. * With the right background knowledge and experience, why do consultants get a bad reputation? + “There are a lot of really, really good consultants out there, and there’s a lot of really bad consultants out there. And there are a lot of really good consultants out there that charge a ridiculous amount of money for what they do, and there’s a lot of bad ones that do as well.” – David Klee + People remember the bad consultants they have worked with more vividly than the good, and this shapes their perception of what a consultant is. - People might develop their own persona of a consultant as someone who charges too much, doesn’t do a good job, and then leaves. David tells us this spans across industries and is not unique to technology consultants. * When people seek to hire a consultant, they might not know what to ask to vet that consultant’s experience before hiring them. Are references a nice way to do this? + David says he gets asked for references pretty often, but speaking to references can be a challenge as well. You might talk to a reference and find out they are related in some way to the consultant, for example. + “You just have to be careful when you talk to these folks on the other side of the table…. It’s not that all consultants are bad. It’s just there’s a lot of average consultants. There’s a few bad ones. There’s a few really good ones…same thing with normal hires.” – David Klee * A consultant could be brought in to help for a short time, for a medium term, or for a long-term project. + David mentions a friend of his who has worked on a block of hours that has renewed for 12 years. + In this specific case, the person is basically part of the company and treated like family. This long-term nature of the engagement makes it easy to take time off when needed. * How can listeners work better with consultants during the hiring phase and in collaboration with them after hiring? + David says it is important to understand and convey what you want a consultant to do or the direction you want them to steer you. We should convey what we want from a consultant in as much detail as possible. + Suppose you told someone to build a car for you. The skillset to build a semi-truck is totally different from that needed to build a Formula One car. + “If you tell somebody something and their background is building racecars and what you really need is somebody to tow a trailer…if you just say go build me a car, guess what? Out comes some really cool high performance sports car that’s not what you needed. And you’re disappointed. They’re unhappy. Nobody wins.” – David Klee + David says plan to give the consultant as much of the detail up front as we have. If you don’t have all the detail, communicate there is some ambiguity, that you need help choosing a direction and filling in gaps. This helps a consultant scope the product and understand what you really want instead of what you say you need (which could be 2 different things). + A scope of work defines what a consultant does and whether they perform hands on keyboard work or not. Can people just purchase a number of consulting hours without a clear deliverable? - “There should always be some kind of deliverable…. If somebody walks in the door and you say do task X and then they go do task X and then they disappear…if you don’t have a record, do you know what they actually did? And if they get hit by the beer truck, can somebody repeat what they did tomorrow? …The scoping is one of the hardest pieces.” – David Klee - Scoping can be challenging and varies by project. David gives an example of a SQL Server migration project. In this case he would provide reference material to help build a new machine. David could build the new machine and show someone how or let them build it while he walks them through it. - There are a number of elements of scope in addition to performing the tasks. Scripts might need to be run or problems fixed before a migration can happen to continue the example above. Once the work is complete, David will provide a document describing the new machine, how it was set up, why it was set up that way, and any fine tuning needed to run a specific application.
9:55 – Consulting as a Career Path* Why do people pursue a career as a consultant? What makes it attractive? + For some people it is not the right choice, but for others it is the clear choice. + Consulting might be a good choice for you if… - You are bored with the tasks of your normal job - You want to do something different - There isn’t any training - You like dynamic work environments + David tells us if you’re pursuing a role as a consultant, be prepared to learn! + David likes consulting because every day is totally different. This can also be a downfall sometimes. + Full-time employees of a company can end up working in an environment with a boss they don’t like or a co-worker with which they clash. David mentions working a short consulting engagement in a less-than-ideal environment is more tolerable knowing he will move on to something else once it’s complete. + Consulting can keep things fresh, allow you to see new types of problems or environments, or give you the chance to do something new. + Being a consultant can remove you from some of the politics within companies. David, for example, doesn’t deal with corporate politics very well. - If politics get in the way of getting something accomplished it can be frustrating because the roadblock is not technical. The consultant would prefer to just be able to do their job. + David, as the owner of a consulting firm, can say no to taking on a project. - What can a full-time employee do if they are told to do something that is the wrong approach? David feels the employee cannot realistically say no. - David shares an example from one of his first jobs out of college. He worked on a specific application’s programming language and was asked to fix all the bugs. After presenting the people in charge a choice between rebuilding on the latest software version (3 months) or patching the existing version (9 months), they chose the 9 months. It was not the right approach because of all the new bugs that were found which took longer to fix based on that decision. - A consultant may have to present options and make a recommendation, but it is the customer who makes the decision on what is to be done. If a consultant feels like it is the wrong approach or not in their best interest and they are empowered to do so, they can decline the project. * Does a consultant need to bring a deep expertise in one or more areas into the role, or are there other qualities one might possess that can make up for this? + It’s ok to not be as deep, but you must be willing to ramp up to meet or exceed the expectations of the employer. + “A lot of people can do the technical work. Can you talk to the people in the business in a way that represents their role in the organization? Talking to a CFO is totally different than talking to an application owner and totally different than talking to an infrastructure engineer or software engineer. That’s one of the biggest things…understanding how to take what you know and interpret it to what you need out of that individual role and convey it in a way that matters to them and a way that they can digest and actually comprehend. It’s a hard art…and I’ve been working on that for a very, very, very long time. It took being placed in a number of quite frankly uncomfortable situations to really understand how to talk to those people easily, naturally.” – David Klee + Consultants can learn communication skills over time. David says a good consultant is ok at this, but for a great consultant, it’s natural.
14:46 – Job Descriptions and Interview Advice* What types of roles do consultants have before they become consultants? + There are many possibilities here – generalist systems administrator, network engineer, storage engineer, etc. + David knows people who consult in areas such as: - Project management - Social media marketing - Offering a fractional or virtual CISO (Chief Information Security Officer) - Virtualization / infrastructure + You don’t have to be the master of all things to get a project, but you do have to be able to deliver. * Do job descriptions for consultant roles read similarly to those for full-time employees inside a big company? + David says sometimes they do. But sometimes you see job descriptions asking for experience that isn’t possible. + David shares the example of a company wanting 5 years’ experience with SQL Server 2016 in the year 2016. David told the company SQL Server 2016 had only been out for a month and that he had worked with SQL Server since 1995. That wasn’t good enough. The person doing the interviewing also was not the most technical. - This kind of thing is a red flag in the interview process and a sign that you probably don’t want to work there. * How can the consultant better understand what they are about to sign up for before taking the job? + Pre-sales discussions around consulting are as much you interviewing them as it is them interviewing you. + David likes to ask questions that give him information about how a company or team operates. He might ask about emergency protocols, documentation for their virtual machines, change control processes and records, and scheduled maintenance windows. + Can a consultant stay out of pre-sales conversations and stay post-sales exclusively? - David feels you should be part of the pre-sales process to validate the project is a good fit. Even when working through a headhunter, it is likely you will get to speak to the end client customer to determine project fit. - “You shouldn’t be expected to just walk into a project blind.” – David Klee, on being a consultant - If you’re working as a consultant for some kind of consulting firm and have projects passed to you, there should be some kind of a project acceptance process to brief you about what you’re about to walk into. - If a consultant comes in and asks a lot of questions that have already been answered by the end customer, it sets the entire project off in a bad direction. + Are consultants afraid of being involved in pre-sales conversations? - “Think of it like a job interview you do 12 times a week. That’s hard…. You’ve gotta get real comfortable thinking about everything that you know and understanding how to answer what they’re asking you in a way that is not arrogant but confident. And if you don’t know something, it takes a certain level of experience to say, ‘I don’t know, but I’m going to find out… I’m going to get you the right answer.’” – David Klee - David said it takes practice to figure out how to answer the questions in these types of discussions. - David shares the story of interviewing for a 6-month contract at one of the largest hedge funds in the world. When they asked a specific technical question, David admitted he did not know. David knew where to find the answer and said he would get back to them once he found it. After doing that, David got the job. - We should not claim to know more than we do. People with experience can easily detect it when you are trying to fool them. + Why is it hard for people to admit it when they don’t know something? - David mentions the Dunning-Kruger Effect as one reason. - Ego may be another reason. People do not want to be perceived as not understanding. - “When you hit a certain point in any mastery of a certain topic, I call it enlightenment because at that point you know what you don’t know. And you’re not afraid to admit it. But because you know what you don’t know and you know enough about the platform, you know how to go learn what they need pretty fast. And that’s the fun part.” – David Klee - David has won a number of projects that were similar to other things he has done but not exactly the same. In these cases, he has asked for one week to create the scenario in his lab. After that time, David shares with the potential customer what he did and confirms it is what they are looking for / that this will meet their needs. - Listen to David’s story about solving a problem related to SQL Server Integration Studios for a customer by tinkering in his lab. It was a situation where he explored a product he did not know well and ended up solving a problem.
22:12 – Travel Expectations and Being Productive* In our previous discussions with David, he mentioned travelling 150 to 250 days per year for 11 years straight. How much travel should someone new to consulting be expected to take on? + David has cut back to no travel ever since the pandemic. Sometimes he misses the travel, but he really likes sleeping in his own bed each night. + The amount of travel is going to depend on the nature of the work. - If you are consulting for someone else and the expectation is that you will travel, someone else is likely paying for that travel. The amount of travel depends on the contract and type of project. - If you are working for yourself (like David), it also depends. You might need to be physically on site to meet or get to know people, especially if a customer expects it. You might need to do it to build trust first and transition to more remote work later on once the customer knows your reputation. - David says before 2020, everyone wanted him to come on site, and over time it got old. He tells the story of being flown across the country only to sit in a conference room on a Zoom call and logging into a server located across the country to perform a migration. The company wanted him there as an insurance policy. - “The means of doing this stuff remotely have been demonstrated and confirmed. It goes back to the company culture at that point. If the culture wants you on site because they want to physically see you, it is what it is, but some companies are a lot more open to letting people work remotely than they ever used to be…. My days are quite busy. Every bit of it’s remote.” – David Klee * Should you expect to get paid more if your role requires travel? + It will depend on the company, the type of project, and it will depend on whether you work for someone else or are independent. Being independent might get you more money or higher per diem / travel reimbursement. + If working for a consulting firm, hopefully your salary takes the travel into consideration. If you were expected to be on site working 40 hours per week, you might be traveling on Sunday night or very early Monday morning. The travel to and from the customer site is not part of the 40 hours. - David doesn’t live in a hub city, for example. Because of this it might take him between 5 and 16 hours to get to a specific destination traveling by plane. That would not count transit time to and from airports (time to rent a car or catch a ride share, etc.) or any extra time due to flight delays. - After 1400 nights on the road over the course of 11.5 years, David tells us there have been plenty of travel delays. + Hopefully the amount of travel required is clearly stated in the job description, but it can always change at any company based on the needs of the role. - David mentions a previous role that started as 25% travel but became closer to 75% travel by the time he left. David says the job dictated the amount of travel. - “You have to make sure that if you sign up for travel…for just that rate of travel, is your family ready for it? That means potentially missing family events and late nights and early mornings. It’s not just you that has to be prepared for it. It’s them. If you take any kind of a consulting role that requires even a small amount of travel, be prepared for that, and have that discussion with your family just to make sure. Even if they say they’re ok with it, really press hard. This is real. I’m not going to be here for a while.” – David Klee, on preparing your family for travel - Your family might not understand that you are going to come home exhausted every week, need recovery time, and then have to do it all over again. - David remembers many times when he would get home late Friday night and then be back on a plane Sunday afternoon. - “I enjoyed being at the destination. I hated the journey of getting to the destination.” – David Klee * How can people use their travel time to be more productive? + David says we should understand how we work and if there are things we can do offline (with no internet connection). + It’s important to learn how to work on a plane or in an airport and focus on what you’re doing. Can you block out the world / all distractions? + David bought an 8" Ultrabook in his travel days to be able to work on PowerPoint presentations on a plane with room for a mouse. It was small enough to fit in his pocket. A Microsoft Surface was too big and would slip off the back of the tray table. + “I figured out I could get a lot of quality time working on presentations or catching up on tech material all on this little tiny thing, so I splurged…. And it actually worked well…. If you don’t work well with distractions…if you can’t sleep on a plane…you have to understand those limits before you even try. Just don’t lie to yourself.” – David Klee, on getting the right device to be productive on an airplane. * Is the travel involved in being a consultant something that attracts people to the role? + David says yes and that this was one of the reasons he started doing it. He had not traveled to a lot of places before getting into consulting. After over 11 years on the road, he has visited 47 states and 13 countries. + Through this experience David developed confidence in his ability to get up, pack quickly, travel to a foreign country, get transportation, and go to a restaurant and order food. - David learned to do the planning in advance for his travels after a lot of trial and error. There was no executive assistant to do it for him.
30:51 – Working for a Company with a Consulting Arm* We’re going to pivot to discussing the different environments someone could work in as a consultant because they are not all the same. Let’s start with being a full-time employee of a company that does more than just consulting. Maybe it’s working for a technology company or a value-added reseller. + This was the entry point into consulting for David, joining a company that was doing Oracle consulting. David provided SQL Server consulting services to the same group of customers. + David had a lot of fun with this and got to see a number of different environments. He even got to help the company expand into new markets and bring in a lot of new customers. + Is this type of environment the optimal entry point for most people? - David says it depends on what you really want to do. - “If you’re the kind of person where you need to do 1 thing and 1 thing well…where this is your system or your database or your application, I would say that kind of role might not be the best fit…. You may not be tasked with doing one thing well. You may be tasked with doing a bunch of things at more of a higher level or not as deep.” – David Klee, on working as a consultant full-time for a company whose business model is not just consulting - For those who like to do just 1 thing very well, you have the option to look at contract work through a headhunter (i.e. almost being a full-time employee through them). + If someone is part of the consulting group or branch of a company that does more than just consulting, how much control would someone get over the work they are given? - David says most of the time you don’t have a lot of control. It is often based on customer need, the available people, and the skill sets of those people. Someone would be assigning the projects to you as a consultant. + If a consultant brings a specialty to the role, should they expect to change it over time based on customer needs? - David says yes, and this concept should apply to everyone in IT. He gives the example of people who began as COBOL programmers (which we don’t see much of today). - “In IT you should be expected to evolve with the technologies and your own interests. Let’s say AI is just now magically everywhere. What if that’s one of your interests? Take your foundational skills that you enjoy, and bolt on this new technology and explore it. But don’t get rid of your passions…. It’s a logical progression and extension, but you have to go out of your comfort zone to learn something new…. You’re not discarding anything from the past. You’re just building on top of it. But if you don’t do this, you’ll be considered a dinosaur. And you may have a decent job for today, but if that technology evolves to the point where you’re no longer useful and the company is moving past that technology, you’re in trouble.” – David Klee - David was an infrastructure administrator who dabbled with databases. He became the database administrator and introduced virtualization when his company did not have enough physical servers to run the systems they needed to run. * David expanded his knowledge base from virtualization to cloud technologies (virtualization in someone else’s datacenter with really good automation). * David named his company Heraflux technologies because Heraclitus coined the phrase about the only constant being change. - “As a consultant of any kind, if you’re working for somebody else, they may pay to give you some training. You still have to keep up. If you’re doing it for yourself, the keeping up is only on you and you have to keep doing it.” – David Klee * What can someone ask in interviews to sort out whether this is a good environment for them? David provides some suggestions: + Are you expected to be in an on-call rotation? + How many people are in the on-call rotation? + What’s the amount of travel required? + Am I compensated for part of the travel time? + What are the policies for the travel itself? - For example, do I have to fly standby to keep costs low? - Do I have to stay in cheap motels, or can it be at least a Hilton of some kind? - David shares the story about some consultants who were given a $20 allowance for dinner in New York City. The rest came out of their own pocket. + Am I expected to be on call for products I am not skilled at or don’t want to work on? - When David worked for the Oracle consulting shop, he and others were expected to help with Oracle support calls after hours. David did not know Oracle well and needed to know who he could call for help. + What are the hours? - Is it expected that you be in an office every day? - Do you have the ability to take off early if things are slower? Is there some flexibility in the schedule? + What are the benefits? + How much PTO (paid time off) and sick leave are personnel given? - What are the holidays the company takes off? + What kind of training opportunities are there?
38:29 – Presentations and Communication Skills* Before David became a consultant, David only got to go to a conference because a vendor wanted him to present a session based on a problem he had solved that made their CRM solution easier to use. His first technical presentation was in front of 2200 people! * Does being a consultant lend itself well to presenting at a technical conference or user group? + David says yes. + “As a consultant, the easy part most of the time is the tech. The hard part – showing people around you what you did and talking upwards and laterally to say ‘here’s the value of what I just did.’ So, you have to understand how to present something in a nontechnical manner…at which that person would best receive it. And if you can learn the art of talking to people at the level they are at, be it nontechnical or ultra technical / absolute guru…if you can figure that out, you can do a technical presentation in front of 10,000 people and you’ll be perfectly fine…. And be it a 5-person user group or 2000 people at a conference, the only thing that’s different is can you see the back of the room and are you blinded by spotlights.” – David Klee + David has given presentations to audiences of various sizes over time. He says if we know our content and how to speak to an audience in a way that “clicks” with most people, it can be a lot of fun. + David says the presentation to a very small group compared to a large group is not that different. You likely will get more nervous speaking to the large group but are talking about the same topic. + The visual aids / slides might be more polished for a larger audience. + “But the core flow of the presentation doesn’t have to change just based on the size of the audience. You still want to do a good job even presenting to 2 or 3 people.” – David Klee + In part, a presentation will sell the value of what the consultant has done on a project or sell the solution that best fits a problem. - “If you’re confident in that, they won’t question the fact that you know what you’re doing. They won’t question the what and why. They’ll just question the how.” – David Klee + Nick thinks the biggest difference in being on a conference call compared to being at a technical conference is that the conference talk can make it more difficult to be interactive. - Nick likes to get feedback from the audience during a presentation when possible because it helps calm his nerves. - David says you can still make it personal for the audience and make eye contact with them. - David shares the story of arriving an hour early for a presentation and answering questions. It might not make more people ask questions during a presentation, but it could encourage people to continue the conversation with you after your presentation. + For the consultant listening to this, consider doing a presentation at a user group or conference. - David suggests doing a 5-15 minute “lightning talk” on a topic of interest. It does not have to be unique and can be something you put your own spin on when you give the presentation. - “You can enjoy it. You can have fun. People will benefit from it. And if you can learn presentations like that, it makes you a better communicator…because the tech side of consulting is arguably the easy part. It’s the people skills, it’s the communication that’s arguably one of the biggest things you need to be comfortable with. You don’t have to be good at it. You don’t have to be perfect at it. But if you can be comfortable with it, it makes you a better consultant.” – David Klee * How do we tell how comfortable someone is with communication skills during an interview? + Pay attention to a person’s body language and whether they look you in the eyes. + David would encourage us to watch their face as they think through the answer to a question. + If the person is sure-footed in their answers and overall communication, it can help the interviewer understand the job candidate’s level of experience.
Mentioned in the Outro* Learning new things to add onto our body of knowledge is a great thought David proposed. Looking at what we are interested in keeps us engaged motivated to continue learning. * Great consultants are also great communicators. A lot of this comes through interviewing – customers interviewing a consultant before hiring them, consultants interviewing customers to get more detail about a problem and the customer’s environment, etc. When you are interviewing someone or they are interviewing you, someone is doing discovery like Ramzi Marjaba spoke about in Episode 308 – Probe and Discover: Coaching for Impact with Ramzi Marjaba (2/2). + Maybe great consultants are really just great interviewers! * If you want to hear more episodes about consulting, try searching for episodes based on the consultant tag on our website * If you’ve been a consultant, what do you love about being a consultant? Send us an e-mail or share this post and tag us on LinkedIn.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
What does it mean to coach someone? Is that the same or different from being a people manager? Ramzi Marjaba is back to delve deep into the process of coaching. This week in episode 308, we discuss the roles of mentors, managers, coaches, and how their skills might overlap. Ramzi will share the reasons he is passionate about coaching others and the qualities of an effective coach. We also talk about how making tasks look easy can mask the hard work behind them.
Original Recording Date: 12-07-2024
Ramzi Marjaba is a returning guest and the man behind We the Sales Engineers. If you missed the first part of this interview with Ramzi, check out Episode 307.
Topics – Making Things Look Easy and Keeping a Brag File, Defining Coaching through What Coaches Do, The Skills of a Coach, Managers as Coaches, Parting Thoughts and the Future of We the SEs2:51 – Making Things Look Easy and Keeping a Brag File* A software developer would practice building software every day. A sales engineer, on the other hand, is not practicing doing demos every day. They might do a dry run before a customer meeting to prepare, but that is likely it. * Ramzi shares a story of preparing a customer demo to illustrate how salespeople and sales engineers might not truly understand each other’s roles and the work each requires. + A salesperson scheduled Ramzi to do a “quick and easy” demo to show interoperability with other solutions a customer was using. + Ramzi met with the customer before the demo happened to make sure he understood the customer’s expectation. + “I went in. None of their products worked. So, if we’re doing an interop, and their product doesn’t work in the middle of a demo, whose fault is it? The sales team, more specifically, the SE.” – Ramzi Marjaba + Ramzi did some interoperability testing with the customer, and they decided Ramzi would do a demo just to show how the product works and ignore the interoperability part. + Ramzi prepared a demo based on the prep done with the customer, and it went great. + On the way out of the meeting where Ramzi did the demo, the salesperson asked Ramzi why it took so much preparation to do a demo that was just a few clicks. * Nick references David Zweig’s book Invisibles about highly skilled people who, if they are doing their job, you might not know even exist. Likely this is how workers in IT feel when they’ve put forth large amounts of effort to accomplish a task that seems simple. + “That’s the big thing. If you’re good at your job, you make things look easy. And one of the things engineers or technical folks in general struggle with is letting people know about the work that they’ve done.” – Ramzi Marjaba + Ramzi provides the contrast between former colleagues who would work on the hardest problems that came to the team and someone who would close the most tickets due to finding known issues. The person who closed the most tickets would send out e-mails to let people know how many tickets were closed and would also get all the praise. + Ramzi was speaking with an SE manager recently who suggested keeping a brag file in which you document your accomplishments and the impact they’ve made on your company. This can easily be shared with your manager to demonstrate the work you have done and make a business case for a raise or promotion. + John likes the emphasis on practice and quantifying the level of effort we put in to make something look simple. - We can quantify the level of effort in retrospect for a career advancement file. It’s important to document how the work we’ve done impacted more than just us (our team, a customer, the greater organization, etc.). How did what we did help the team accomplish something? + Ramzi says if we have trouble keeping the brag file or sense our manager might not value our work, we can CC our manager on communications about the work we’re doing. The CC is not to escalate to your manager but to keep them informed. - “You can do both. You can make sure your manager is in the loop while at the same time figuring out how to say how great you are without coming off as an arrogant person.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on communicating our accomplishments to our leaders in multiple ways - John calls this calibrating your self-promotion. You want to be informative enough to let your manager know what you’re doing so they can evaluate your performance without being someone who is looked upon as an arrogant self-promoter. Open communication with your manager and asking for feedback can also help. - By keeping your manager informed, Ramzi says you are doing them a favor. A manager of sales engineers may be managing 12 people at the high end. Ramzi has seen support teams with 20-30 people under a single manager. - “Support teams…we had 20 people, 30 people on the team. They are not going to know what everyone is doing. They are going to have feelings about what everyone is doing unless you show them exactly what you’re doing. If you make it easier for them to understand what you’re going through, they don’t have to feel about things. They don’t have to worry. They don’t have to wonder.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on keeping your manager informed of the work you do
10:27 – Defining Coaching through What Coaches Do* How much of a manager’s work is performance management, and how much is coaching? + Ramzi says he’s not really had a manager who has coached him. One manager did try but ended up being more of a mentor than a coach. + Nick and John have both had managers who coached them. + “I think managers should coach. The problem is there’s a power structure…. How do you differentiate between ‘John is saying this because he cares about me’ versus ‘John is saying this because he’s my manager at this company, and he has to tow the company line?’ So, there is that struggle, and lots of great managers can figure it out.” – Ramzi Marjaba + From what Ramzi has seen, most managers don’t coach. - A manager might use a 1-1 more to figure out if an SE is doing their job rather and for checking in on key performance indicators (KPIs) than making the 1-1 a time for the individual to own the agenda. - “A coaching session the individual should set the agenda, not the manager or the coach. What is it that you want to achieve? What is it that you want to talk about today?” – Ramzi Marjaba, on coaching sessions - Some individuals may not feel comfortable being vulnerable with their manager, thinking the manager may use it against them in a performance review. It does not mean managers will do this, but people will have that fear. - Ramzi feels SE managers (and any managers) should try to coach employees, but there could be a limit to the effectiveness of a manager’s coaching. Employees may choose to keep certain things to themselves. * John suggests we define coaching and shares the definition he was given from new manager training. + When someone asks for help with something, coaching means you would talk the person through the process of learning how to do it rather than giving the answer. + John gives the example of submitting an expense report and talking through what isn’t clear, what the person tried, etc. + “The way I see coaching is…a form of guiding people to come up with their own methodology or their own conclusion or their own way of doing things or their own next steps based on the goals they provided to you.” – Ramzi Marjaba + Does coaching have an overlap with mentoring? - A mentor has specific experience to share who can provide guidance on going through the same / a similar experience. - Coaching is more about helping someone envision the next steps they should take to get closer to a goal. - Suppose someone wants to become a salesperson in the next 2 years. Ramzi would want to know why the person wants that in the first place. - “Let’s come up with the steps. What are the steps that you need to take? And these are not things that I’m telling that person. They need to come up with the steps. If I think that they’re wrong, I can guide them or nudge them or ask them clarifying questions so that they can see what the right path is versus me telling them.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on the role of a coach compared to that of a mentor - Ramzi feels mentors might not be trained to mentor or have an obligation to do it. Senior members of a team might be assigned by the manager to mentor less experienced members of the team. + Does a coach need to have the same experience as a mentor and take a slightly different approach, does the coach not need the experience? - Ramzi says the coach doesn’t need to have the same experience as the person is trying to get. - “A mentor is someone who is right in front of me who can grab me and pull me up, and most of them just reach back and try to grab me. And if they can’t, they just walk away…because there is no obligation. The coach is standing next to you trying to ask you questions so you can pick the right path. And usually, it’s more of a formal relationship. If it’s not a manager, in external coaching there is usually money involved…. My success as a coach is related to your success as an individual. I don’t see mentors thinking that way.” – Ramzi Marjaba - Ramzi says coaching is more formal between two individuals, and mentor is a best effort kind of relationship. - “A mentor can tell the person exactly what to do to get to where they are. A coach’s job is to help the individual build the plan, their own plan, for success.” – Rami Marjaba - Ramzi shares a common scenario of someone coming to him wanting to get a job as a sales engineer. He might let that person know one of the most common ways to get a job is through referrals and that they can connect to people on LinkedIn to build the relationships to ask for the referrals. But Ramzi would guide the person he is coaching through setting a target for how many people to connect with on LinkedIn per day. This allows the person to be more successful than setting the target number for them. - According to Ramzi a coach can help someone build a plan of action, while a mentor might only tell someone what they should do. + Does a coach also hold someone accountable for the goals they set? - Ramzi tells us it’s more than that. If someone doesn’t accomplish a goal they set, a coach will try to figure out the symptom or the reason why. Maybe the goal needs to be adjusted or the way in which the person is trying to achieve their goal needs to be adjusted. If the goal was reaching out to people on LinkedIn, maybe the person was spending too much time typing out the message to send people and needs to use a template they can copy and paste. * Ramzi reminds us that if we help someone by providing a valuable service it is ok to accept payment for that help. + Ramzi offers paid coaching services and meets with some clients on a monthly basis. He really enjoys coaching and has been doing it for a number of years. + Being a successful coach allows Ramzi to coach more people over time. + We wouldn’t ask a business like Cisco if they provide routers merely for the love of routers. It is for a business. - Ramzi mentions people often have a different perception of someone posting a paid service they offer on LinkedIn versus a business like Cisco.
21:14 – The Skills of a Coach* What are some of the skills a coach needs to be successful as a coach? + Ramzi says they need a lot of life experience, and they need to be good listeners who can probe deeply into what people really mean when they answer a question (which is not always what they say). - Asking good questions is important to help people to get to the bottom of a problem and to help them build a vision. + A coach also needs to be able to convince people of something through asking questions. - Ramzi says this is the same as what sales engineers do. This is doing a discovery. - “You’re doing a discovery, and you’re helping…the individual build a solution in his or her own brain so that they can commit to doing whatever it is they need to do to achieve their goals.” – Ramzi Marjaba + Ramzi coaches mainly SEs but also coached some salespeople. If he’s coaching a salesperson, for example, he might be trying to help them figure out what they are missing as a result of losing a number of deals in a row. - As a coach, Ramzi would focus on helping his clients become better sales engineers or better salespeople. + Ramzi says many times, improving as an SE or a salesperson has nothing to do with working with customers but rather is about internal relationships. Here are some of the patterns Ramzi has noticed: - When people tell Ramzi they want to work with him to get better at doing demos for customers, the coaching conversations usually aren’t actually about demos. They are about doing better discovery. Poor discovery leads to poor demos. Have you ever watched someone do a demo for you but not cover anything you cared about as a customer? It probably means no one did any discovery in advance of the demo. - Some SEs run into problems interacting with salespeople (an account manager or multiple account managers). In a tough market, an SE might get blamed by an account manager for losing a deal because of a demo or some other reason. - Ramzi mentions the SE lifecycle of recruitment, onboarding, and continuous learning. Sometimes an SE can hit a point of stagnation, feeling they are bored with performing the same activities and wondering what to do next. In these cases, Ramzi works with people to find ways to make the job more fun while becoming an even better SE. These clients are usually SEs who have reached the point of boredom and don’t want to go into sales (as a salesperson) or SE management. - Nick says this last scenario of fighting against boredom isn’t so different from what Ramzi did with the podcast to keep learning.
24:28 – Managers as Coaches* Nick thinks the right manager can be a good or even a great coach because the goals can be aligned to make the manager successful in doing it. Would Ramzi consider a role as a people leader and how that might be the same or different than being a coach? + Ramzi would agree an SE leader can be a great coach, but it does not mean they are. + He has thought about going into SE management but also mentions being in a small market in Ottawa, Canada. + John may be an exception to this rule, but Ramzi feels in general it is easier to get promoted inside an organization into a people management role than applying from outside the company. - John highlights the previous reference of crossover skills in SE roles between companies. + Ramzi mentions there have been no opportunities to become an SE manager within his organization. His goal going into the role at his current company was to become an SE manager, but it did not happen. - The company is not in a hypergrowth mode with new teams popping up, so the opportunities have not been there for Ramzi. + As an external coach, Ramzi is beholden to no one except his clients. They are the stakeholders, and this makes life easier. - This is different from a people manager at a company who has their employees (members of the team the manager wants to make happy) and their own maangement chain as stakeholders. That situation is more complex. - If a people manager gets a decree from leadership that is likely to make members of the team unhappy or frustrated, a lot of the time the people manager has to go through with it because of the mandate from above. - John says part of the role of the people manager is filtering and choosing the important battles to fight. A manager may choose to fight something that is a 10% increase in work / effort for the team that has minimal return, for example. - “When you are paying a coach, one of the things that you are paying for is their direct honesty and the fact that you are the stakeholder. You can be more honest with a paid coach than maybe with a manager.” – John White - As we discussed, people might feel being vulnerable with a manager could be used against them. This is especially true when you do not have a strong relationship with your manager. - Ramzi is a pretty blunt person and is honest with his manager 95% of the time. Most people may not be honest with their manager that much of the time. The remaining 5% might be reserved for looking for job opportunities outside the company. If Ramzi was interested in another role inside the same company, he would communicate that to his manager and ask that person to help him get it. Ramzi feels his manager would in fact help him get a different role inside the company, but not every manager is going to be willing to do this. The level of honesty and transparency you decide on with your manager will depend on the manager. - “He’s not just serving the engineers. He needs to serve the business. And he’s going to have to balance the benefit to the business versus the benefit to his people…. I’m not balancing anything. My main priority is the people.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on the role of a manager vs. that of a coach
30:27 – Parting Thoughts and the Future of We the SEs* Why should Ramzi keep doing with the SEs, and what is his vision for the future? + Selling something to a customer helps solve a problem, but it doesn’t change the person’s life. + When Ramzi helps an SE learn how to do better discovery or to build a better relationship with their salespeople co-workers, it significantly improves the person’s life. + “I have a bigger impact on a person’s life by being their coach than by being a salesperson, which is why I still do We the SEs and why I coach.” – Ramzi Marjaba + Ramzi doesn’t want to put himself in a position of needing to sell a coaching service to financially support his family. He can lose clients now due to the fact that he has a full-time job to avoid having to work with clients who aren’t very nice or aren’t a good fit. + There are many potential paths forward with We the SEs. - Ramzi gives an example of some consulting work on how both salespeople and sales engineers can work together in a more streamlined sales process. - Ramzi plans to continue coaching and looking at ways to take on more clients. * What is Ramzi’s advice for effectively having a side hustle and making sure you give time to both it and your full-time job? + You don’t want to create a conflict of interest, but doing something that is related to the work you do for your job makes it easier to justify the time commitment. + Something that makes you better at your job can get you raises at your current job or opportunities to work elsewhere. + Having a side hustle / side gig is also for branding purposes so people know who you are. This could lead to more people wanting to connect with you. + If your side hustle is completely unrelated to your work, focus it on something you enjoy. If you then try and turn it into a business, your hobby might disappear. - Ramzi heard a story about someone who loved skiing but then decided to start a clothing brand, which they started to hate because it kept them from skiing. Pick something you would enjoy doing as your side project. + Ramzi does like having multiple income streams but does not want to sacrifice health or mental wellbeing in the process. + “I went through a period where I almost burned out and almost quit We the SEs altogether, which was part of the reason I stopped doing the podcast.” – Ramzi Marjaba * Since Ramzi almost burned out, what are some of the warning signs that a person might be close to burning out? + When Ramzi saw he had podcasts scheduled, he had a negative reaction to it (mentally and physically). + Listen to your body’s reactions. * To follow up with Ramzi on this discussion… + Connect with him on LinkedIn – Ramzi Marjaba. + Visit the We the Sales Engineers site + Subscribe to the [We the Sales Engineers Podcast].(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/we-the-sales-engineers-a-resource-for-sales/id1378292171). + Check out @WeTheSalesEngineers on YouTube.
Mentioned in the Outro* Doing discovery is something that applies widely across our personal and professional lives to prevent misunderstandings. Discovery is about giving you more context about a request someone has made. + We can do this in 1-1 discussions with our boss to better understand their motivations and the things that are important. + Someone working the help desk needs to discover the real problem for which someone submitted a ticket. Asking good questions to get more context about what someone is trying to do may lead you to a totally different solution. + This can help in our personal lives as well to get clarity in a conversation and to ensure we understand what someone is saying. * Nick enjoyed hearing about the coach being untethered from any company when that person is not the manager. It could be difficult for the manager in the scenario when a manager knows a member of their team is looking for a role outside the company. The good / great managers we’ve spoken to on the show have spoken about their intention to support peoples’ careers even if that means the person leaves the company or the team. For more on this topic, check out: + Episode 138 – Apprentice, Amplifier, and People Developer with Don Jones (2/2) + Episode 137 – Something to Offer, Something to Share with Don Jones (1/2) * We talked about coaching and mentoring to some extent, but if you want a masterclass on mentoring and what it means to be a mentor, check out our episodes with Dale McKay: + Episode 288 – Guardrails for Growth: A Mentor’s Experience with Dale McKay (1/2) + Episode 289 – Enhance Your Personal Brand: Feedback as a Catalyst for Change with Dale McKay (2/2)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
Is professional networking the same thing as sales? Does the thought of that make you cringe a little?
Ramzi Marjaba, our guest in episode 307, says sales skills are some of the most important skills we as technology professions need that no one talks about. Whether you are building professional connections or searching for a job, you are running a sales cycle.
Ramzi helps us understand the role of the sales engineer and the trend in job openings over the last several years. We’ll hear about the genesis of We the Sales Engineers, how it has changed over time, and what Ramzi has learned from hosting a podcast after 300+ episodes.
Original Recording Date: 12-07-2024
Topics – Genesis of We the Sales Engineers, The Sales Engineer Role and Job Market Trends, Sales Skills and Professional Networking, Transformation of We the Sales Engineers, An Emphasis on Practice2:21 – Genesis of We the Sales Engineers* Ramzi Marjaba is a returning guest and currently works as a solution specialist for a technology company. + In addition to this, Ramzi runs We the Sales Engineers, which began as a podcast. Over time Ramzi started creating blogs and YouTube videos – @WeTheSalesEngineers related to sales engineering. He has been coaching others who work as SEs / want to become SEs for a few years now. + Ramzi tells us that coaching is one of his favorite things to do, more so than being a salesperson or a sales engineer at a company. * An SE is a sales engineer, which may also be known as a systems engineer, solution engineer, solution consultant, etc. at other companies. There are many different names for this role in our industry, but it’s a technical pre-sales role. * We last spoke to Ramzi way back in Episode 27, which Nick missed due to sickness. + In that discussion Ramzi mentioned starting the We the Sales Engineers podcast because he didn’t really have a place to go to get educated on what it was like to be a sales engineer. Ramzi wanted to create resources for people getting into sales engineering profession and to build a community. + Ramzi tells the story of a specific customer meeting 2 years into his career as a sales engineer. - “Halfway through the meeting, my customer…he basically stopped me and said, ‘Ramzi, I don’t care about anything you’re showing me right now.’ And my VP was sitting there…. That was the best thing that ever happened to me because he took me aside after the call… He said, ‘Ramzi, you didn’t do any discovery.’ My immediate response to that was ‘what is discovery?’ Two years into the job and no one has ever explained to me what a discovery was. So, I went down a rabbit hole….” – Ramzi Marjaba - Ramzi ended up reading a number of sales books, but he wasn’t able to find many SE focused books. Demonstrating to Win had some helpful tips on discovery. + When speaking with other SEs inside his company, Ramzi found they were making the same mistakes. - Ramzi wanted to talk with SEs outside his company and learn from them, and he thought (at the time) that the one way to get them to talk to him was to say he had a podcast. So, he started a podcast. - “Knowing now what I didn’t know back then, I would have been able to talk to anybody without a podcast. SEs is the best community in the world from what I’ve seen. They are willing to talk to anybody to help.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on the SE community - Ramzi contrasts the SE (who talks to others because they want to help) and the salesperson (who may expect something in return).
6:42 – The Sales Engineer Role and Job Market Trends* How would Ramzi define what a sales engineer is and is not? + Sales engineering is the process of solving a business problem with technology. + Sales engineers are not sales support or customer support. - They are partners to salespeople and to customers to understand a business problem, come up with a solution, and help the salesperson provide the best proposal for that customer. - Sales engineers come up with a solution and then try to show the customer why they have the best solution. - Ramzi says many sales engineers don’t understand that their comments through continued interactions with a customer during the sales process can add value to or take value from a deal. * Do sales engineers have a role in the price negotiation process? + Ramzi says yet, but it is more indirect. + Sales engineers help justify the specific bill of materials as the solution and why it is uniquely differentiated from competitor or commodity solutions. They also help account managers handle objections from customers. - Though we might have dedicated teams for value engineering at a company, Ramzi believes part of an SE’s role is to highlight the value of a solution to a customer. * What does Ramzi see as common entry points to sales engineering or the roles people often have before they become SEs? + Ramzi has seen people from post-sales support or professional services become SEs. Many come from post-sales. + Some people move into an SE role from the customer side and have hands on experience in specific vendor technologies. Nick and John both followed this path (IT Operations). Coming from the customer side allows you to understand what customers need and want and may be an easier transition. + Software developers might also transition into an SE role, but it might depend on the target market / target industry for a product. + “Generally speaking, if you’re a customer for an industry, you can become a vendor of that industry.” – Ramzi Marjaba + In 2021 / 2022, Ramzi tells us people with seemingly unrelated jobs were becoming SEs. At the time of this recording (late 2024), hiring managers are being more selective when it comes to job candidates and their experience coming into an SE role. * John wants to dig deeper into Ramzi’s comment about the 2021 / 2022 time frame. + In the 2021 / 2022 time frame money was cheap, and interest rates were very low. Many companies wanted to scale during this period, and there was a shortage of SEs. Ramzi feels like the range of people considered for sales engineering roles widened considerably. - Companies were more willing to take chances to hire people as sales engineers. Some of these choices paid off, while others did not. + If we fast forward to the more recent pass, money is more expensive, and many experienced SEs have been laid off over time. Ramzi feels like companies are being more selective about the level of experience they want, and it’s an employer market rather than an employee market. * Is Ramzi seeing an overall increase, decrease, or steadiness in terms of the number of sales engineering jobs open taking into context all the layoff events we’ve seen? + Ramzi says right now he sees a steady, slow increase in the number of openings for sales engineering roles. That is improved since last year at this time (almost no openings). + While the number of openings may be increasing, Ramzi says it is still very tough and competitive in the job market. + Ramzi says a couple of years ago recruiters were not able to get all the required elements in a job description and had to settle in certain areas. Now, there isn’t a need to settle for less than what a company wants / requires from a role. + Ramzi gives the example of being an SE focused on networking. Applying for a role focused on network security would be an easy transition, but you might not have the security experience. Someone with the same soft skills and security experience might be looked at as a stronger candidate. + “It’s just harder to move jobs right now. If you’re in a job and you’re secure, be thankful.” – Ramzi Marjaba + Jon emphasizes the number of people out of work in specific areas due to layoffs making the job market more competitive right now. + “It’s not just the people who are out of a job who are looking for a job. If someone’s at Palo Alto, and Fortinet really wants them, they will go after them. So, you’re not just competing against…other people who were laid off. You’re competing against people with a job. And it’s always easier to get a job when you already have one…. Just because it’s not a good time doesn’t mean you don’t apply or you don’t try.” – Ramzi Marjaba + Is the current job market not a good environment for those adjacent to the SE role to try and move to it? - Ramzi says there’s not a specific good time to make a move into an SE role. If it is what you want, you still try it. + Ramzi landed his role as an SE in a not-so-great market because a vendor wanted to gain a relationship with a specific company. Ramzi had the network of professional connections this vendor wanted at the time and got the job.
14:49 – Sales Skills and Professional Networking* “Resumes don’t get you jobs. People do. So, if you’re interested in becoming an SE or interested in changing jobs, whatever job it is, start networking. Dig your well now before you need it. Reach out to your network, other people who are in the same industry.” – Ramzi Marjaba + If you want to break into sales engineering, reach out to sales engineers, salespeople, or people who work in customer success to have conversations. * “I really hate to admit this from the bottom of my heart. Sales is one of the most important skills that people need and no one ever talks about…. The sales skill is something you use in every day of your life, and the process of getting a job is a sales cycle. It’s a sales job. You’re the product. You’re the salesperson. You’re trying to sell yourself to the customers. How do you sell yourself to the customers? Well, the first thing you need to do is find the lead.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on job search as a sales cycle + Leads are other people who can refer you for a job. + Throughout the interview process you need to showcase your value (i.e. the value of the product – you) and not just restate your job description. - For example, what was the impact of closing tickets for your company? Did you close them faster or develop a process for your team to close them faster? - Think about how you can speak to your experience in a way that differentiates you from the competition. - “Sales is the thing that you have to do to actually get the job.” – Ramzi Marjaba * Nick mentions networking with people can take many forms – reaching out to someone on LinkedIn, reaching out to people who have a podcast or YouTube channel on social media to speak to them 1-1, going to a meetup group (in-person or remote). Is networking me selling me or just me building connections? + Ramzi doesn’t see a real difference between the two. + Nick says professional networking is about connecting with others to get to learn from them and help them if you can. + John mentions there is a selfish motivation that can come across in all of this – showing up so someone can help you vs. showing up to build a relationship. + Ramzi says this is what sales in its truest form is supposed to be. + “I’m not meeting with you to sell you something. I’m meeting with you to see if I can help you with anything. If I can help you with anything, then I’m happy to sell you something, and…I’m happy to get paid for the services I have helped you with.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on sales in its truest form + Ramzi gives the example of wanting to get a job as an SE. Suppose you see John posting helpful content about it and decide to reach out to him. You could send him a message, mention you find his content interesting, and ask for a few minutes to learn from him 1-1. - Ramzi says you can ask someone for a 15-minute conversation, and if they say no, they say no. - If you can offer the person help, that is a great thing too. You can easily offer to introduce them to people who might be interesting. - “If you reach out to people with the expectation that they owe you something generally speaking it’s going to show in the message.” – Ramzi Marjaba - Ramzi gives the example of SDRs (sales development representatives) who send 10,000 e-mails per day in some cases. When these people send e-mails asking for things from people they are often ignored. E-mails that show some helpfulness might not be ignored. - Even when you’re trying to network with people, not everyone is going to respond. Make sure you DO NOT SPAM people. - Ramzi likes to coach people and loves finding leads. But he also knows not everyone is going to respond. + John mentions the parallel between networking and selling and the need to not make someone on the other end feel obligated to do something or buy a specific product. It’s ok to ask for a favor when you reach out to someone. - “That message, if the product is a connection with me…in the networking context is not that desirable…. It’s kind of like…I put no thought into what it is that you do or what you need, but would you like to talk to me and help me?” – John White, on sending the wrong message when selling or networking + Ramzi says in his experience, SEs are willing to help if you reach out to them as long as you’re not asking for something like a blind job referral when they don’t even know you. - “Here’s an example message. Hey John, I see you’re working at company Y, and I know you’re not hiring right now. But your profile seemed interesting, and I feel like I can learn a lot from you. I realize you’re busy, but if you have 5 minutes to spare, I would appreciate being able to ask you a few questions.” – Ramzi Marjaba, an example message to someone you would like to meet or network with - John could say no to something like that but may feel bad about it. He says it is much more likely to get a yes. - Ramzi says we don’t often understand that other people are busy. If someone says no to talking with you, it might be that they are busy and not that they didn’t want to help you. In the case of no response, Ramzi suggests following up and encouraging the person to let you know if they are too busy. - Ramzi says we should not be rude to people we want to help us because no one owes us anything. + John says this might feel like common sense after you’ve heard it. But it’s good practice in building the skill of gaining new acquaintances as an adult. - Ramzi says this is also personal. When reaching out to people because you want to get a job, getting a job is your biggest concern and sole focus. But that won’t be the sole focus and priority of other people. - Other people’s lives do not revolve around answering us. This is the similar to sales engineering when a customer might not be answering us. - “Their life doesn’t revolve around you. Your life revolves around them the customer. So, when we get angry at them, we’re not thinking about them. We’re thinking about us. If you put yourself in their shoes, you will understand a little bit better, and your e-mails will be a little bit more empathetic.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on the parallels of sales engineering and professional networking / job hunting - Ramzi mentions he has changed his mentality when people are unresponsive to messages, and it has improved the relationship with his customers. He checks in with people to see if they are ok and gives them the option to say whether they are too busy right now. This has made Ramzi’s life and the lives of his customers easier. - Nick mentions a book he read called Talk to Me by Dean Nelson about interviewing people and the author’s advice to put ego aside so you can focus on the person you are interviewing. Nelson would say we have to make the interview about them just like what Ramzi recommended. * To Ramzi’s earlier point, if Nick is networking with someone and feels they have a story to share on the podcast, he is 100% selling them on the idea of being a guest. + “Everything’s a sales pitch. A promotion is a sales pitch…. I studied engineering so I don’t have to talk to people. Since I’ve been in sales, I’ve realized that if I didn’t have any sales skills, I would have failed at my job miserably….even as an engineer.” – Ramzi Marjaba + John felt like his lack of sales skills impeded his career in IT Operations. Because John didn’t know what was important to his boss, he could not pitch his ideas for IT projects in the context of what was important to his boss. + It’s a similar scenario if you don’t know what is important to a customer. You need to understand what is important to them and how they measure success. + In the context of networking, some people view a successful life lived as having a certain percentage of their time spent helping people. Knowing this about someone allows you to present that person with an opportunity to succeed. John didn’t understand this until he was taught sales skills.
28:22 – Transformation of We the Sales Engineers* How has Ramzi’s podcast and We the Sales Engineers as an entity evolved over time? + Ramzi says the podcast has been great. He has over 350 episodes now. + “For the first 200 episodes, I felt like…I was learning a lot. And then it started to dwindle. The last 150 episodes were tough for me…. I got to a point where after like 350 episodes I got bored.” – Ramzi Marjaba + Ramzi kept going with the podcast for the last 150 episodes because he was getting messages from people saying the content was helpful. + At some point the podcast didn’t feel authentic for Ramzi. It was hard to show any enthusiasm. Ramzi is a pretty expressive person and doesn’t want to fake things. + After 350 episodes Ramzi decided to take a break. + “For the last 150 episodes I did it for the audience so they can learn. From now on, I want to do it for me as well. So I’m reaching out to people I never would have talked to before, and they are a little bit outside my domain.” – Ramzi Marjaba + Ramzi gives the example of reaching out to someone in procurement to have as a guest on the podcast. Note that Ramzi had to help this person understand why their perspective would be relevant to the sales engineer audience. In doing this, Ramzi learned a lot. + Ramzi is interested in talking to SE leaders about advanced topics like whether sales engineers should be part of the services department or the sales department. + The discussions Ramzi has are for learning but also for debating (a method which also helps Ramzi learn). + Ramzi plans to do 12 episodes per year and move to a season-based show. + Sometimes the medium makes it hard to understand a concept. For example, Ramzi has advice to share on whiteboarding, and it’s easier to do that in video form on YouTube. Be sure to check out the We the Sales Engineers YouTube channel. + “I’m doing both. I’m doing the podcast where I get to talk to leaders, and I’m doing the YouTube channel where I share my expertise and my knowledge.” – Ramzi Marjaba + Ramzi tries to publish videos every other Friday. It’s a consistent schedule he can stick to that is easier to maintain than a weekly publishing schedule. + John has enjoyed watching Ramzi’s videos on whiteboarding. - Describing a process often requires a visual component, so switching to video makes a lot of sense here. - John also appreciates the fact that Ramzi did not complicate this process by trying to invest in a lot of gear / equipment up front (like building a lightboard). Nick mentions this kind of thing can be a noble obstacle as discussed in our book review of Finish by Jon Acuff in Episode 273. - Ramzi actually thought about making a lightboard, but he did not think it was practical to use this with a customer and didn’t want to spend a lot of money. It was instead better to use Miro for whiteboarding and collaboration with customers. Miro has a free plan anyone can use.
33:57 – An Emphasis on Practice* How have Ramzi’s communication interactions with customers and with others changed as a result of doing the podcast? + Ramzi says his knowledge has expanded at a minimum. + Learning about negotiation through the podcast taught Ramzi quite a bit about how to communicate, for example. + The improvement is hard to quantify because it’s been gradual, but it has definitely changed the way he interacts with customers. - Ramzi says he used to think customers were always right, but sometimes that just isn’t the case. Neglecting to tell a customer they are wrong is actually hurting them. - Engineers do not like to have tough conversations with people, and Ramzi has learned how to do this. For example, he’s had people he disagreed with on the podcast, but they had to disagree respectfully and come to some sort of conclusion. - Ramzi also feels the improved communication skills from the podcast helped him get his current job. * Nick highlights things like committing to content creation (podcasting, blogging, etc.), participating in a technical community, or contributing to GitHub as helpful behavior patterns to stand out in the job market. + Ramzi says this consistency is also about practice. The sales engineer might end up getting their practice only in a live customer meeting. + Ramzi says he listened back to the first episode we recorded together, and he couldn’t finish it. He feels like he is speaking a lot better this time with fewer filler words. + Nick feels like we all probably speak better now than when we first started podcasting. This also applies to interacting with others at work more effectively than we did when we first started working or we first began a job role. * Ramzi says the practice of communicating on the podcast has helped him think about things a lot more (the why and the how of his actions as an SE). Earlier in his career this was not the case. For example: + Why do a demo one way vs. another + How to do a proof of concept + How to do a proof of value * Nick says in any conversation there’s going to be something that comes back at you for which you were not prepared. Ramzi encourages us to think about why we are doing things, and it can help us adapt in the moment. * John likes the idea of practice and review. We might not record and review the core things we do for our job to promote improvement. + We can get feedback from others who are in meetings with us. We can ask what went well and what did not go well to help ourselves improve. + Ramzi says we forget to tell the people we are going to be with that we want their feedback after a meeting, so others may only be paying attention to what they are doing. + Ramzi thinks of sales and sales engineering as a sport like basketball. + “Sales engineers…we were doing something completely different, and then we get plucked out, put in as a sales engineer…. Go play basketball against Lebron James who has been doing it for 20 years…no practice, nothing. Most SEs do not perform well, especially early on…. You were talking about watching tape, which is what they do in sports. But something else that they do in sports is practice all the time. When do we practice?” – Ramzi Marjaba + An SE might practice in front of a customer. They might practice a demo in advance, but it still ends up being a dry run in front of the customer. + Ramzi feels we as SEs often don’t practice (at all or enough) for things like: - Discovery calls - Objection handling - Dealing with angry customers - Answering tough questions - Working in harmony with an account manager / salesperson (especially when an SE has to work with many salespeople as part of a pooled model) + Ramzi mentions that many challenges of being a sales engineer could be overcome through more practice. + Nick feels like the mantra of more practice applies to any person that’s part of a team in corporate America. - At that point you’re going to share an idea to change a process or something else, and there could be a member of your team who doesn’t think it’s a good idea. You might then need to influence the team to do it the way you suggested because you feel it’s the best solution. - “Engineers don’t generally work on soft skills…. If we want to improve our career, we’re going to have to learn to do the soft skills.” – Ramzi Marjaba
Mentioned in the Outro* Have you been building your professional network? Even if you haven’t, we heard some great examples for reaching out to others on LinkedIn. + Remember that people might not respond to us at all. It’s ok to follow up and give people an out, a chance to say they are too busy. Ramzi models this with his customers. It’s ok for others to say no. * We talked about practice and the areas / types of tasks a sales engineer might need to practice. This can apply to tasks and activities for anyone in any role. + We need to practice what to do in a disaster recovery scenario or in responding a cybersecurity incident so we will perform better when these events happen. + We also need to practice professional networking, and though we did discuss excellent tips for doing this online, consider attending an in-person meetup group to meet new people. Check out meetup.com for any groups of interest in your area (even if not related to your work). - Ask people what they do for work, what they like about it, and what they are learning. - During the conversation you will likely get a chance to share what you do and what you would like to do in the future as well as what you would like to learn. We never know when someone we meet may offer helpful advice or introduce us to someone else who can help. - Network with people through the lens of trying to learn and help others. * Did you pick up on why Ramzi did the podcast and why he will continue it in a slightly different form? + It’s ok for our motivations to change over time compared to when we started. Ramzi wants to keep learning, release his podcast in seasons, and talk about more interesting topics. + This is similar to what Amy Lewis mentioned in Episode 302 – Ending with Intention: Once a Geek Whisperer with Amy Lewis (2/2) about putting something down to pick something else up. Ramzi is focusing on his YouTube content. * What was most interesting to you about this conversation with Ramzi? Consider rating us 5 stars and putting your answer in a review on Apple Podcasts. We would love to hear from you!
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
Are layoffs top of mind for you right now? Brad Pinkston is a returning guest and someone who has experienced multiple layoff events in the tech industry from different seats.
In episode 306, Brad shares the story of getting laid off from a small startup. We’ll dissect how he processed that news and eventually returned to big company life. Then, looking at layoffs from a different lens, we talk about feeling survivor’s guilt. Have you ever felt it? Is it wrong to feel it when you didn’t lose your job?
After deciding to continue as an individual contributor, Brad would later become a member of the team he had once managed. Listen closely to hear about the hardest part of that transition and whether Brad sees himself returning to people management someday.
Original Recording Date: 11-21-2024
Brad Pinkston works in technical pre-sales and is a returning guest. If you missed part 1 of this discussion with Brad, check out Episode 305.
Topics – Once Impacted by a Layoff, Examining Survivor’s Guilt, Staying Individual Contributor, Parting Thoughts2:29 – Once Impacted by a Layoff* How did Brad process being laid off from the 2nd startup he joined? + Looking back, Brad can logically see that his position really did need to be eliminated. + Brad likes to stay on the analytical side of his mind because emotions can easily snowball in situations like these. + “The startup was taking a chance on trying to create something. After months of trying to create it, it didn’t work. Maybe a bigger company could have taken me and put me in a different place, but this is startup world…. If we’re abandoning the strategy, we’re abandoning people who were hired to execute the strategy, so that’s the way that I analyzed it mentally.” – Brad Pinkston + The emotional processing of this event was not easy. Brad says he was worried about finances and taking care of his family among other things. + Brad mentions one of the worst things a manager or leader can say in a layoff situation such as this is how great someone is and that they won’t have any trouble finding a job. - “If I’m so great, why did you need to eliminate me as opposed to repurposing me or something like that? …That was the biggest emotional reaction I had to the entire thing…. I think that managers or people that have to deliver that news…they say that thinking that it’s going to help you be more confident, but it is not helpful at all. It is a shot to the gut emotionally, so if you’re ever in a place where you have to deliver that news, don’t say that.” – Brad Pinkston, on telling someone being laid off they won’t have trouble finding a job + John highlights the fact that we as humans don’t react emotionally the same way we intellectually think we should. - “Our emotional reactions…they just are. Whether or not it makes sense intellectually, it is what happens…. You can do all of the intellectualization that you want. That doesn’t change what the emotional reaction was.” – John White, on how reactions to situations might not make sense - We might feel that we have failed again or feel worse by having an emotional reaction that intellectually doesn’t make sense. A person can spiral downward quickly this way. - John has learned to try and give himself grace in these situations (when the emotional reaction does not make logical sense). + This is the only time Brad has been laid off, and he feels lucky that it’s only happened once. - Telling people they are going to be fine might cause an emotional reaction. - Looking at this differently, Brad thinks he would have been upset if the layoff had been completely impersonal and fact based. He would have been upset that they didn’t care. - “There’s no way to receive or deliver that news in a way that’s going to be positive. You can only control levels of bad in that scenario in my opinion.” – Brad Pinkston + John references the movie Up in the Air and George Clooney’s character flying around the county to fire people. - The way in which Clooney’s character conducted the firing seemed a little bit like emotional manipulation. + Brad says there is an emotional reaction to being laid off that you’re “not good enough.” - If you have been laid off, let your professional network know what happened. Cast a wide net, and don’t be afraid of telling people. - If you haven’t built a strong set of professional connections, start doing it right now. Your network is there to help if they can in times of need. Hopefully you are also giving to your network consistently. - “Don’t be ashamed of being laid off. It is what it is. If you haven’t been laid off or fired, just wait a few years.” – Brad Pinkston + John was laid off from Google as part of a reduction in force of over 11,000 people. It was a very humbling situation. - John tried to cope with the situation intellectually by telling himself it wasn’t personal and that it didn’t mean John was bad. But it still does not feel good to lose your job. - You can hear more details of what happened and how John reacted in Episode 220 – John Got Fired.
10:12 – Examining Survivor’s Guilt* Sometimes the organization you work for has a round of layoffs, and you are not impacted. * From where John is sitting, he sees friends working at other organizations getting laid off and feels some survivor’s guilt. + “I’m sitting where I’m sitting not because of how amazing I am but because of a roll of the dice, literally a roll of the dice. And that’s a difficult thing to deal with.” – John White * Brad is very analytical and an engineer at heart. He shares the story of being someone who survived a layoff event. + It’s helpful if those who remain at a company after a layoff can understand the reasoning behind an organization’s decision to reduce the workforce (i.e. where the organization was going and why). * John is seeing really good people being let go in these layoffs we’re seeing in the industry. + “We’re all going through seeing good friends who are really good at their jobs that are really valuable being let go from organizations…into a job market where other companies are doing the same thing….” – John White * Brad tells us the team he was on before a restructuring event was an amazing group of engineers. + It’s difficult to figure out why you remain but other talented people were laid off. + There’s a lot of survivor’s guilt (the only term we have for it) associated with still being at a company after one of these events. We can be thankful for still having a job but still feel a sense of guilt. + Nick highlights how this can create an awkward feeling. What business would someone still employed have to feel bad? - We want to maintain relationships with people who have been impacted but might not know what to say to encourage. * Executives have to make hard decisions for the good of the company. We’re also not saying every one of these deicisions by executives are made in the right way either. + Brad knows it isn’t easy for the managers and leaders who have to deliver tough news to people about being laid off. + When layoff events start to happen, Brad says people are in limbo, uncertain if they are getting a good call or a bad call. There is a lot of uncertainty. + “Even the good call…good for me…that’s not a good or a bad call for the manager calling to deliver that. It’s just another call that they’ve got to deliver, and I feel for the folks that have to deliver that message because a lot of times they’re not even part of the decision on who is going to get a good call or a bad call…. That is in a nutshell more of middle management than people realize. Even at good companies you gotta deliver bad news.” – Brad Pinkston, on not always being able to set the strategy as a middle manager but having to execute it + John shares the story of a manager he saw deliver tough news to an employee. In this case it was not in the middle of a layoff. The manager realized the person did not fit within what the team needed but still saw value in the person and reached out to contacts who were willing to give them a serious interview for a job better suited for the person. + John mentions the issue with layoffs is not enough slack in people’s networks to account for 1000 people hitting the job market in a specific geography on the same day, for example. There may not 1000 job openings right then. - John has tried to give to his network to the degree that he can, being open to talking with people if they need a listening ear. - “The is not the end of your career. This is a comma in your career. Your career is a long book, and this is…maybe not even the end of a chapter. It might be in the middle.” – John White, on guidance he would give to others right now - The job market is tough right now with so many tech layoffs. John heard someone make an off-handed comment about there being a lot of startups 5 years from now founded by people who were laid off. That doesn’t help anyone looking for a job right now and is yet another thing not to say to someone who has been impacted. * Do the managers or leaders who have to execute mass layoffs also feel survivor’s guilt? + Brad has been lucky in that he’s never had to deliver the layoff news to someone. + He’s managed people out of the business and managed people into better roles. + Brad thinks the front and second-line managers he’s worked with have definitely felt the survivor’s guilt. - If Brad were in the position of needing to deliver the bad news, he feels he would be more heartbroken over having to execute something he doesn’t really want to do. This would be more painful than the eventual survivor’s guilt. - An individual contributor on a team that was reduced may be feeling survivor’s guilt, but they didn’t get cussed out like a manager might have after delivering bad news to someone, for example. Likely managers will first need to deal with the execution of laying people off and whatever fallout comes from different people’s reactions to that situation. - John says it can’t feel good to tell people you know are good at their jobs that the organization no longer needs them. - “That’s what’s happen right now, unfortunately…. And that’s why we’re all talking about survivor’s guilt. These are people that are significantly skilled individuals that are impacted by a decision made that was totally out of their control regardless of how they performed…. We keep going back to the same terminology because there’s nothing any easier…. That feeling…it’s hard to get past.” – Brad Pinkston + John doesn’t know that we have an answer for this. - John says when he sees announcements on LinkedIn with news of layoffs, he offers a listening ear if that’s what people need. * While Brad was laid off from the startup, he was fortunate to not be unemployed for a long period of time. Here’s some advice Brad would offer to anyone impacted by a layoff, someone feeling survivor’s guilt, or others feeling bad about what is happening within our industry: + Reach out to others, and offer to be a reference if you can. Let people know you respect them and that you know they are talented individuals. + It is confidence building when someone reaches out and offers to be a reference / sends you some encouragement. It helps motivate people to keep going and to marshal their resources (their network, etc.). + Let people know you’re there to help however you can. + Nick says we can send people helpful resources and communicate our intent to help with the caveat that they are free to use them or lose them. * John mentions our industry goes through swings from it being near impossible to find a job to having extreme difficulty finding people to hire, but those periods could be 2 years apart or more. + After being laid off from Google Cloud a couple of years ago, John saw there were many openings for sales engineers across the country. + It’s different being laid off at the time of this recording because there are multiple companies doing reductions in force, making it tougher for job candidates.
27:19 – Staying Individual Contributor* Would Brad go back to people management, or is he enjoying individual contributor life too much after returning to it a few years ago? + Brad really enjoys what he is doing and is currently a member of the team he managed 5 years ago. + When Brad returned as an individual contributor to the team he had once managed, Brad would be working for someone who had once indirectly reported to him. + “That was the hardest thing about the transitioning back…. How do I have these conversations and be helpful with my experience but make sure that he knows that I know that it’s his team and that I respect his leadership and will follow him? That was the hardest thing that I’ve dealt with with the manager to individual contributor transition. When I joined back on the team, I had hired or recruited probably 80% of that team to come on board. So I wanted to make sure that everybody knew I’m here to be one of the team members, and I am not going to step on anybody’s toes.” – Brad Pinkston, on being an individual contributor on a team you once managed - Even though it was a challenge to join the same team he had once managed, Brad tells us everything went very well. + While Brad is enjoying being an individual contributor, he would definitely go back to people management. - Brad feels lucky to be working with a talented team of salespeople and technical SE peers. - “I would say that I’m not in a rush by any means, but I do want to go back into people management. I did enjoy it. I think I’ll be much more picky with the role than I was when I transitioned to the startup. I’ll ask a lot more of those inciteful questions, John…. But I do think that the story will come full circle back to that for me…because there’s too many aspects of it that I miss.” – Brad Pinkston, on someday going back to people management * We’ve heard from other guests that going from manager to individual contributor was about getting closer to the technology. Did Brad find himself missing that aspect of the job too? + For Brad, it was more about getting closer to working with customers. + Brad enjoyed getting back in front of customers and building customer relationships again. - Managers might attend customer meetings with members of their team, but it isn’t the same as when you are the front-line SE supporting the customer and own the relationship. - “I do believe that if you’re a good leader and you’re a good manager that you contribute more than just being another sport coat in a meeting.” – Brad Pinkston - Brad has loved building customer relationships and influencing customer strategies. - Brad can only stand behind technology he wholeheartedly believes will make a customer’s life better. + “That’s the thing that kind of holds me back from going into people management because you get away from that. Instead, what you’re doing is you’re investing in the people on your team and making them better. And then you see it pay off. But a lot of times when it pays off, they go on to another team. So, you don’t get to see the long-term engagement there like I’m getting to see now that I’ve been back in the role for 2 years.” – Brad Pinkston, on being an individual contributor - John mentions he just had his first person promoted off his team (i.e. a growth opportunity this person wanted that John helped foster). Judging success by the number of people promoted off your team is a badge John will proudly wear. He agrees you don’t get to participate in that person’s success in the long term but rather just be an observer of it. - Brad shares the story of someone on his team years ago whose family was relocating. This person took a promotion outside the company rather than a new role internally. It was a bigger and better role for the person career wise, and Brad sees it as a bittersweet moment since the company lost top talent in the process. - John’s hope is that we are giving advice that is affecting people positively on this podcast.
34:37 – Parting Thoughts* Nick tries to sum up the theme of the episode to see if that matches what John would say. What do you think? + Brad likes to build things and wants to make an impact. Not being able to make an impact leads to job dissatisfaction. The impact for Brad can be on the customers he serves or the team he serves as a people manager. Brad has worked for a big company, multiple startups, and is now back at a big company. He has demonstrated that someone can be successful regardless of whether they are a people manager or individual contributor at multiple companies. + John says even if you’re not a people manager you can still affect people’s careers in a positive way. We can mentor and experience the success of others even if it’s not as their direct manager. * If Brad, John, and Nick didn’t enjoy the people side of what they do, likely they would not have pursued sales engineering. + Satisfaction can come from multiple places like… - Being an individual contributor working with customers - Mentoring others on your team - Impacting the people in your professional network + “I used to tell my team we need to impact process, pipeline, and people. Hit all 3 every day, and you’ve had a successful day.” – Brad Pinkston - Pipeline can mean merely generating some new interesting conversations. - Process means we want to be efficient in what we do. - “The people was always the biggest piece to me – whether my team was impacting each other, impacting a customer, or whatever it is…I think at the end of the day that’s the most important piece to me. But I’m impacting it in so many different ways…big companies, small companies, through layoffs (being part of them or being the one being laid off). The people impact is always the most important piece of it to me.” – Brad Pinkston * If you want to follow up with Brad, you can find him on LinkedIn + Right now stay focused on your network. Reach out to your peers. And feel free to reach out to Brad.
Mentioned in the Outro* If you’re looking for more support on the topic of layoffs, whether you’ve been impacted or it happens to be top of mind, check out our Layoff Resources Page. This is a curated set of our most impactful discussions on the topic of layoffs, each with practical tips for listeners like you. + What are we missing on the topic of layoffs that you would like to hear more about? Send us an e-mail with your feedback – nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com. We would love to hear from you! * For Brad it was about impacting the people in whatever role he was in. What is it that you like to impact the most? + Brad’s story is a great example of how we can make an impact in an area that’s important to us in multiple different job roles. + Maybe you want to impact technology architecture, clean up technical debt, impact strategy, impact a product’s long-term roadmap, or you want to impact people but never want to become a people manager.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
What exactly is a technical alliance? Technology companies create alliance relationships to support product integration and to increase revenue by creating multiple avenues for selling a product. But as Brad Pinkston knows, alliance relationships between different companies can become quite complex.
This week in episode 305 we’re rejoined by Brad Pinkston to hear his story of pursuing a role at a startup while at the same time making the move from people manager to individual contributor. We’ll define go-to-market strategy and how that related to Brad’s role at the startup, discuss what happens when a new job turns out to be different than what we expected, highlight some thoughts on evaluating startups from a different lens before joining, and listen to Brad reflect on his experience interviewing for a second-line manager.
Original Recording Date: 11-21-2024
Topics – Brad Pinkston Returns, The Allure of Startup Life, Go-to-Market and an Expectations Mismatch, Technical Alliance Relationships, Returning to Individual Contributor, Managers and Interview Expertise, Running Away from Something2:!7 – Brad Pinkston Returns* We last spoke with Brad Pinkston back in 2020. What has he been up to since? You can find our previous discussions with Brad here:
+ Episode 83 – The Path to People Management and Early Lessons Learned
+ Episode 84 – Management Interviews and Transitions with Brad Pinkston
- Brad decided to leave a big company and try out life working for a startup while at the same time making a move from people manager to individual contributor. Eventually Brad transitioned out of startup life and has returned to a big company in a technical presales role.
3:21 – The Allure of Startup Life What attracted Brad to startup life, and what makes it alluring when you work for a big company? + One reason to join a startup is the potential for a very large future payday from stocks. + “Fundamentally what I really like to do is I like to build things from the ground up.” – Brad Pinkston - Before moving to the startup, Brad was in a first line manager role at a big company. At the time, Brad did not feel he had the amount of control he would have liked over what he was building. + Moving to the startup was a chance to go and build an organization. Brad’s role was going to be leading the relationship between his past company (the big company) and the new company (the startup). The startup planned to have an OEM relationship with the company he was leaving. + More specifically, Brad was going to… - Help the two companies work together - Develop sales strategies - Teach salespeople at the startup how to work with sellers at the former company - Teach sellers at his former company about the startup’s new technology – something much more security and networking focused and out of the area of expertise of his former company * Nick sees Brad’s move as an adjacency with some good relatable experience.Brad was a people manager who had built and led teams. He would be building an organizational structure in terms of processes and ways of working together. And he also knew the technology from his former employer. With solutions from the former company being integrated into the startup’s technology, Brad wasn’t starting from nothing. His base of knowledge was very relevant to what he would be doing. + “Any time I transition between roles…I’m always up for a new challenge, and that’s why any of us take on new roles. But, I try to make sure that there’s a cornerstone of my skillset that’s going to be translatable…. My thought process was that I understood the tech…and I understood the relationships and go-to-market and the way that this was going to work. And I will say that I was 1 for 2 on the 2 things that I thought were going to be the cornerstones there. I did understand the tech really well, but the way that the relationships were going to work and what my role was really going to be, I was completely wrong about.” – Brad Pinkston, on moving to the startup
7:08 – Go-to-Market and an Expectations Mismatch* How would Brad define go-to-market? + Brad learned from his experience that go-to-market means different things across different companies. Another thing to consider in all of this is the OEM relationship mentioned previously and the natural requirement for two companies to collaborate (the big company / Brad’s former employer and the startup). + To Brad, go-to-market at the startup was going to be something like the following. And he admits to being very wrong about what it actually was. - Interfacing with sales teams - Creating sales strategy - Be at the forefront of selling and meeting with at least some customers - Developing the target persona to sell to / spend time with - Developing the value proposition of the solution + “What I actually ended up getting is kind of what I felt I was in before.” – Brad Pinkston, on the experience at a startup not being what he expected + Brad did not get to develop the go-to-market strategy at the startup as he had hoped. He was told to execute a strategy someone else had already developed. + Brad also thought the startup would have a more collaborative culture than it did. Despite conversations about what he thought the go-to-market should be with many people, his ideas for further developing the strategy were not really considered. - Brad spent a lot of time trying to clear up misunderstandings between the two companies (the startup and the big company), but it ultimately was not fruitful. + Overall, Brad was not able to make the impact he originally desired. - “When you’re kind of a builder / engineer mindset like I think we all are…you want to see that impact. Whether it’s a check or big deal or happy customers or you just feel…a sense of success you’ve gotta have some kind of payoff of impact…and I didn’t feel like I had any at the end of the day.” – Brad Pinkston, on the importance of making an impact * Nick highlights Brad also lost the ability to do creative solutioning in his work. * Brad shares some lessons learned on startup life. + Thinking of startups brings to mind characteristics like collaborative culture, flat organizational structure, being a jack of all trades / the ability to do a variety of different types of work. You normally hear about a lot of hard work but also a willingness of people to pitch in and help wherever needed. + “Not all startups are created equal.” – Brad Pinkston + One thing Brad didn’t hear about going into this was the different inflection points of a startup’s life. - Brad joined the startup in question from a timing perspective during an inflection point that was somewhat detrimental. - When an organization is very small, employees are willing to help out in all kinds of areas even if outside their normal purview to help the company or team achieve its goal. People often work across many areas with an “all hands on deck” mentality. - As an organization grows, a good leader will recognize the inefficiencies and transition to having clearly defined job roles and responsibilities for each employee. We might even call this a growing pain of an organization. Brad tells us the startup was in the midst of this transition when he joined, and employees were encouraged to work within their own roles and responsibilities. This stage of the startup was not something Brad expected to encounter and inhibited his ability to impact and execute on a strategy the way he was hoping to. - “I thought that was the startup I was joining. But it had hit this inflection point with size and revenue and all that they needed much more definition of roles, and they were still building that when I came on board.” – Brad Pinkston + Just like go-to-market can mean many things to many different people, startups can go from 3 people working in a garage or home office to multi-million dollar organizations with hundreds of people on staff. John mentions we’re talking about understanding a startup’s stage of growth before joining and making sure our expectations of impact in a role match what the company expects based on the culture they are building. - Brad does not recommend the mess around and find out mentality to learn what he ultimately ended up learning. But he respects the fact that the startup needed clearly defined roles for its employees. - Brad thinks perhaps he could have had different expectations going into the role or selected another startup as his employer. - Large company can also mean different things to different people. * John thinks it would have been hard to discover the startup was in this phase of growth during the interview process. Asking someone a very pointed question about this in an interview gives you one person’s honest perspective at a point in time, and it may not reflect the reality you experience when you start working in a particular role because something changed. + Brad thinks maybe he didn’t ask as many questions as he should have during the interview process because he really wanted the job. Deeper questions about go-to-market to check for alignment might have been helpful. + “Looking back on it I’m going to blame myself more than I’m going to blame them…or anything like that. I’m the one who made the deicision to leave the big company and go to the startup…. To be fair, I don’t think my role ended up the way that my manager expected it to either. And that’s just the turn on a dime of a startup.” – Brad Pinkston * With Brad’s knowledge of and experience at his previous employer, did taking this to a new employer play out the way he expected or differently? + This goes back to the difference between crafting a strategy and executing one made by someone else. In the strategy Brad wanted to build, his relationships from the previous company were going to be extremely valuable because sales teams from each company would be in active collaboration. + Brad’s role at the startup ended up being more focused on business development in the background – a mix of engineering, product development, and even product management. While Brad felt he was effective in doing the job, he wasn’t as passionate about it as he would have been if the role had been more of what he was expecting. + The relationships Brad was bringing to the startup were not valuable in the end because… - It was not his strategy. - The relationships he had did not bring value to the strategy he was given by others to execute.
20:11 – Technical Alliance Relationships* John mentions this sounds like it could have been an ISV (Independent Software Vendor relationship), OEM, or even an alliance partnership between the startup and the big company (Brad’s former employer). How did Brad build up his relationships with these teams at his former employer? + The definitions of things like ISV, OEM, and alliances can differ slightly. + Some ISVs have a technology that is marketed and sold together hand in hand by different companies. There are also ISVs where we may not realize there is an ISV relationship (i.e. something you can buy through Amazon Marketplace that is software developed by a different software vendor). + Brad learned that the nature of ISV relationship and which company is involved in selling a product can vary. + Brad was expecting an ISV relationship between the startup and his former employer that made for a better together kind of solution. The startup was selling a version of their own product that was part of a different company’s product. - One possible future state was having a solution (part of an ISV relationship) that could be purchased based on a customer’s relationship with either company. This unraveled quickly. - Brad thought it would be an ISV relationships where both company’s sales teams would be engaging with customers together / going to market together (making his relationships very valuable). - The ISV relationship which ended up happening was merely Brad’s company delivering technology for another company to use as part of their own solution. This did not require engagement of sales teams at the startup. - John gives an example of an ISV relationship he encountered while working at Google Cloud. - “It gets real complicated and sticky in alliances when you’re talking about OEM or ISV or…how all that happens. I respect the people that have been in alliances their entire career because it can be a spaghetti of things you’re having to deal with….” – Brad Pinkston, on the nature of technology alliances * This presents another job and category of job that most people don’t understand or know is an area for an entire career. + We’re talking about managing relationships between companies that sell complimentary products, co-sell their solutions, or have one company use another company’s technology in their products. + John did not know this type of role existed before he started working for a big company. + How products are sold, where you can buy them, how products will be marketed, what teams will be involved, etc. are far more complex than we might realize (and not a topic we plan to dig deeper on today).
26:30 – Returning to Individual Contributor* What made Brad want to go back to being an individual contributor after being a people manager? + Brad still misses leading a team and helping people progress their careers, and he felt taking the role was only putting this on pause. + Brad thought things would be very successful at the startup, and he would eventually build a team of his own there. + We can be leaders without needing to be people managers, and Brad highlights the chance he was given to influence people within the startup even though he did not have direct reports. + “I’m going to get to build something. I’ll build relationships, sales strategy, and at some point in time I’ll build a team. So it was just a pause on managing people. That’s what I thought was going to happen….” – Brad Pinkston, on the decision to become an individual contributor + When Brad interviewed with the startup, was Brad’s decision to pursue an individual contributor role after previously being a people leader something that came up? - Brad says he doesn’t feel it came up this tiem because everyone was focused on the future of what things were going to be. - Brad has a lot of respect for the manager he had at the startup. Brad would be someone on the bench of talent who could take a people manager role if something changed. - After things started to be less successful than people had expected, Brad had conversations with people to discuss what leading a team of SEs might look like at the startup. It really did not go anywhere. Brad says he might have pursued management at the startup if he had decided to stay. * Is it hard to get used to being an individual contributor again after having been a people manager? + Brad says the transition from manager to individual contributor at a new company was pretty easy. + Part of Brad’s role at the startup was to educate account SEs at the company on what the solution being brought to market was. + Brad was able to leverage some of the skills he had learned from managing people in the past as an individual contributor at the startup like the ability to make connections inside the organization. + At first it was strange to not have 1-1s or career progression conversations. Brad missed the ability to help someone along in their career in the way managers who care can do that. + Brad does not miss the “adult babysitting” side of being a manager. - Brad built the team he was leading before joining the startup as an individual contributor, so there wasn’t much of this.
31:37 – Managers and Interview Expertise* John had an interesting thought. After sitting through performance reviews and interviewing incoming job candidates as a hiring manager, he should be a lot better at interviewing for jobs. John would know what the interview questions actually mean. This also allows him to make performance reviews easier for leaders. * Brad feels like his experiences interviewing people and going through performance reviews have helped him be very direct and drive conversations with his managers over time. + “Whether you’re selling to a customer or you’re selling to your manager that you should get a raise or a promotion, you’re always selling.” – Brad Pinkston * Brad also felt his experience interviewing people would help him interview for other jobs. It did in some cases, but Brad says interviewing for a second-line manager humbled him significantly. + “But interviewing for a second-line manager humbled me…significantly. It’s a great example of what got you here won’t get you there…. The thought process and the things that I was asked and how well prepared I was…was not in line with I think what the expectations were.” – Brad Pinkston + When Brad interviewed for a second-line manager role, he did not get the promotion. But one of his peers did. There are some universal things Brad learned in this process. - Sometimes a first line manager can get a feel for what the greater organization needs, but they might not get a true picture of it at their level. - “You kind of have to figure out what your strategy would be and deliver it very confidently. And you might be completely wrong….because you just don’t know what the organization is going through.” – Brad Pinkston, on interviewing for a second-line manager role - Brad’s strategy as a second-line manager was focused on sales strategy, expectations of the team and how he would run it, etc. - The person who got the job was more focused on how to bring the team together, personal development, etc. It was really important to bring the people together as the organization grew and changed. This person knew bringing people together was the first priority. Brad had this item as a lesser priority. - At a second-line manager level you have to present a strategy and share how the front-line managers under you will help carry it out. At a front-line manager level, the tactical things are also very important. - “You kind of have to set the strategy at a second-line and hope that your leaders under you are adopting and bought in and part of it as much as you want them to be…that kind of thing.” – Brad Pinkston + About a year into his role as a front-line manager, John’s manager left. People at that time encouraged him to apply for the open spot. - At first, John thought it was kind of crazy to consider interviewing for the next level of management. But, looking back, he feels like the experience interviewing (even if you don’t get it) might be a nice stepping stone to getting a second-line manager role eventually. - Part of this might be understanding the relationships you need to have at a second-line manager level, going in with a plan, and having it picked apart. Someone could go interview for the second-line manager role and come to understand they didn’t really know what the job is. - “If I don’t know what that job is, then maybe I shouldn’t be applying for it.” – John White, talking about the role of a second-line people manager - Brad says the second-line manager job he referenced and the needs of it would be different than it would have been for the same role on the other side of the US, for example. - “That’s why it’s always good to be interviewing. It’s a skill you that need to continue to hone just like your technical chops. I learned so much during that process that will help me the next time that I interview for a second-line manager role….if that’s in my future.” – Brad Pinkston
38:40 – Running Away from Something* Brad eventually left that startup and went to another startup. He felt burned out, and the reorganization did not work out the way he wanted. * “And so I went to another startup, which…it was the thing that nobody should ever do. I was running away from something as opposed to running to something.” – Brad Pinkston, on leaving one startup and moving to another * Brad says this was a much smaller startup, and he was eventually laid off. It was definitely a lowmoment.
Mentioned in the Outro* We can’t talk about being a builder without talking about Episode 148 – The Magic of Building with Chris Wahl (1/2). It’s a great episode to go back and reference. * People who like to build things like creative control over what they are building. + In Episode 244 – An Array of Decision Points with Tim Crawford (2/2) we heard about the decision between people leadership and individual contributor being a choice between building people and buidling technology. + At the startup Brad was trying to build something related to technology and not necessarily developing people as a manager would, so it aligns with what Tim Crawford shared with us. * Technical alliances could have a career option for you. We’ve not highlighted these roles on the show before now. Every technology company has these types of roles that work on things like integration, OEM relationships, or ISV relationships. * If you’re thinking of joining a startup, it makes sense to ask each person in the interview process how clearly defined roles and responsibilities are at the company and how clear each person is on their roles and responsibilities.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
Are you trying to reach that next level in your career? Why do you want to get to the next level, and what is most important to you in doing that? If next level means next job level in your case, at some point there is no next level. What then?
Duncan Epping would encourage you not to set a goal based on an endpoint. This week in episode 304 we share Duncan’s career progression over time to Chief Technologist, discussing his motivations and goals along the way. You’ll hear about the qualities top level individual contributors in our industry possess. We also talk through the willingness to shift our technical specialty over time and the humility of approaching everything with the intent to learn something regardless of the outcome.
Original Recording Date: 10-29-2024
Duncan Epping is Chief Technologist, a published author, a blogger, and someone who loves to learn. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Duncan, check out Episode 303.
Topics – A Job Role is not the Goal, Reputation and Reliability, Shifting Your Area of Specialization2:47 – A Job Role is not the Goal* We’ve discussed not needing to go into management to progress in our careers and continuing to progress as individual contributors with some of our guests. Sometimes this means moving to another company whose clearly defined job leveling supports this choice (staff level, principal level, distinguished level, and perhaps all the way to Chief Technologist). What does it take to progress along this path? + Duncan tells us this is something that is quite difficult to discuss because the way someone can progress can differ greatly across companies. Things which may be important for progression at one company may not be important at others. + Though Duncan is a Chief Technologist today, repeating the same steps he took does not guarantee someone will reach the same level or end up in the same situation. Some of this has to do with being in the right place at the right time or being properly positioned to reach the next level. + “Even for myself, at some point there is no career progression anymore…. There’s not always a next level. The same applies for the CEO of the company. There is no higher level…. That is also something to consider.” – Duncan Epping + We might hear of people wanting to get to the next level and then to the next, but at some point, the progression will stop. + “You also need to ask yourself, ‘why do you want to get to that next level? What is most important to you?’ …One of the things that was extremely important to me when I started out in the virtualization space…it wasn’t becoming a Chief Technologist or a CTO or anything like that…. The one thing that was really important to me was to learn as much as I possibly could about this new, cool technology that appeared on the market. That is the one thing that I wanted to do. And that is what set me up for success. I wasn’t constantly chasing new job roles. Those job roles were more or less chasing me…which I know sounds very funny, but that’s the way things really went….” – Duncan Epping + Several months after Duncan started blogging, both VMware and EMC reached out to him about job openings (because he had written a lot of content). But Duncan did not write the articles to get a new job. He wrote them to learn something about a technology he was passionate about. + After starting in professional services at VMware, Duncan consistently tried to stay on top of the latest technical innovations inside the company, expanding his professional network through discussions with product managers and engineering team members. He was asked to move over to the cloud team that did some of the earliest deployments of vCloud Director. + Once the VCDX certification was created, Duncan wanted to figure out how to get it. Through the process of obtaining his VCDX, Duncan further expanded his professional network and was asked to become a Technical Marketing Architect. + “It was all a more or less natural evolution in terms of my passion and my interests more than me chasing a particular job.” – Duncan Epping + In Duncan’s opinion, a principal or a Chief Technologist does not mean you’re the person who has been working at a company the longest. Someone could be a senior engineer for many years while others could progress to higher job levels in a very short time. + “It’s also not always the most technical person that gets to the next level. It’s typically that person that knows how to communicate well both internally and externally but on top of that is also extremely interested in learning new things. And that could be anything. I wanted to say learning new technology, but it isn’t necessarily new technology. It could be anything. And I think being able to convey that passion and helping other people moving forward as well…that is what essentially then sets you up for a job role like a Chief Technologist….” – Duncan Epping + Being a Chief Technologist isn’t just about understanding technology. Duncan mentions this is about understanding people, processes, customers, and much more. + Duncan highlights being a part of mentoring programs in the past as both a mentor and a mentee. In mentoring conversations people often want to know how to get from one point to another or how to replicate what someone else did in a short amount of time. Duncan says when he takes them through the process, they might say they don’t have the time to put in the work. - Duncan chose to continue learning over time because it was a part of his job but also because he loves learning about new technology as well. He didn’t think about the process in terms of time he did or didn’t have. - Duncan loves writing about and reading about new technology, watching videos about it, and answering questions about it on community forums / Twitter / Facebook / LinkedIn. - Duncan feels it is all of the above things combined that present a person as someone who could take on a role of an internal champion and an external facing technologist for a company (a role like Chief Technologist). * John restates this as the role is more of an outcome of many actions, and the goal was staying curious, continuing to learn, and building a professional network along the way. The recognition and getting new opportunities seem like a byproduct of the underlying curiosity. + “A lot of people when they talk about their career progression and then they start thinking about goals, they tend to talk about that endpoint where they want to get. They tend to set that goal and say ‘I want to become a CTO of X, Y, and Z.’” – Duncan Epping, reflecting back on a career progression talk he gave a couple of years ago + When Duncan started working for VMware, the role of Chief Technologist did not even exist, so it certainly was not a goal for him. There was one CTO of the company at that time, and that was it. + “My goal was always to learn more about the technology that I wanted to learn more about and help other people to understand the technology better. That was what I was working toward.” – Duncan Epping - Notice Duncan’s goal was not a sole focus on pay raises or promotions. Those were byproducts of the work he was doing toward a larger goal. + People tend to set huge goals and get disappointed when they do not reach them. Duncan mentions even within huge companies, there are a relatively small number of CTO or Chief Technologist roles. - In Duncan’s opinion we should not set a goal to land one of these specific roles because the chances of disappointment are quite high when we don’t get one.
12:58 – Reputation and Reliability* John speaks to his own philosophy of dreaming in bands and not being laser focused on a single job role or company. Think about the types of people you want to work with, the projects you want to work on, and the things you want to learn (i.e. things that can create more opportunities for you in the future – sometimes in the form of a new role). + When Duncan became a Chief Technologist, there was no process for becoming one. The process was created internally because people wanted to promote Duncan to that level. + “They knew my skill set. They knew I was passionate about something. They didn’t really have a head count for it, but they ended up creating a head count. And they ended up creating that role because they felt there was a need to have someone like myself to be part of that organization.” – Duncan Epping, on getting chosen for a specific role + In most cases, Duncan was asked to take certain roles rather than chasing them. + “I think that is something that a lot of people don’t tend to understand…. I didn’t wake up on Monday morning and all of a sudden I was a Chief Technologist. I also started out as a consultant at VMware. I was just a consultant, and then I became a senior consultant. And then after a couple of years I became a principal consultant. And then I went from consultancy into technical marketing. And then, within technical marketing I became a principal. And then I moved between different teams…. It all happened organically, and it isn’t something that I planned for. It is just something that occurred over time.” – Duncan Epping, on progressing through different roles within a company + There were many things Duncan had achieved even before he came to VMware. + Things we can learn from Duncan’s story and apply to our own career progression are things like emphasizing curiosity, knowledge creation / knowledge publishing (learning in public), building professional networks, and developing a reputation inside and outside your company. It sounds to John like when you’ve built a good reputation both inside and outside your company, the learning and publishing of that knowledge is the important thing and over time has a tendency to bring opportunities your way (almost like becoming a center of mass). + Duncan says we also need to be open to new opportunities, even if it means stepping into an unknown area. He would encourage us not to be afraid of new opportunities. + “I’ve been part of groups that would create a new product which we didn’t know if it was going to be successful or not. And some people don’t take those opportunities because they may think if it isn’t successful I may end up without a role. But in my opinion if you’ve created a big enough network….” – Duncan Epping + We don’t have to be the center of mass / center of attention, but developing a reputation of knowing how to find answers is very helpful. Duncan may not know the answer to every question, but he generally knows where to find the answer when someone asks. - Duncan mentions colleagues like William Lam, Frank Denneman, Joe Baguley, Alan Renouf, and others who operate in a similar way – they know how to find answers when something is outside their base of knowledge. They can be relied upon to go and find an answer. Duncan has featured these people and the traits they possess in presentations he’s delivered on career to various audiences. - “That is what is most important – that people can rely on you. And they know if I ask him or her a question, something is going to come back. And it may take 5 minutes. It may take an hour. It may take a day. But I know something is going to get back. That is also where the power of that network comes into play because if you don’t have a huge network, then you won’t be able to find the answer.” – Duncan Epping, on being a reliable source for helping others find answers to questions
19:49 – Shifting Your Area of Specialization* When doing something you love to do (for Duncan, writing to learn) becomes part of your job, do you still love it? + At the moment, writing blog posts is not part of Duncan’s role (nor is writing books). He could go months without writing anything if he wanted. + When Duncan was in technical marketing, he enjoyed the writing aspect of the role. But what may not be so interesting is writing about the same thing many times. This can lead to getting bored. Duncan has written many articles about vSphere HA admission control and vSAN stretched clusters, for example. + “The one thing I’ve always forced myself to do is try to figure out what I can write about something which hasn’t been written before…so try to come up with something new. And that could even be for the same feature, for the exact same functionality but just written differently based on a question that a customer asked. Or, it could be a completely different topic. That’s why in my career you’ve seen me move from being a generalist in terms of virtualization then focusing on vSphere HA, then being responsible for availability and storage within technical marketing. After that I became responsible for the SDDC…. Then I became part of the vSAN team. Now I am also part of the VCF business unit but focused on storage and availability in a broader sense. So I’ve always more or less moved around, which made it a bit more interesting to write about things.” – Duncan Epping, on shifting writing topics over time + Lately, Duncan has been writing about running (in Dutch). Because Duncan loves writing so much, he is open to writing about anything. Duncan finds writing about new things interesting, and as a result we may see him shifting topics regularly. * Duncan touched on being a generalist and becoming more specialized at times. What advice does Duncan have for others as it relates to staying a generalist or becoming more specialized? + He’s never been too worried about falling into either category. + Duncan started out very broad and was a systems administrator in the 1990s, focusing on Novell, Lotus Domino, Windows, and Linux systems. + When Duncan became a virtualization consultant, that was still quite broad since it involved a focus on the servers, the storage, and the virtualization layers. As technology grew and Duncan started working for VMware, more and more systems needed to integrate / hook into the virtualization platform. + Duncan has never had an issue diving deep into an area to become a specialist, and he’s willing to swap to a new area when needed to become a specialist there too. He has demonstrated specialty in VMware’s vSphere HA, Site Recovery Manager, and vSAN to take a few examples. + A Chief Technologist may need to speak to storage and availability in general and then go deep in vSAN stretched clusters for a customer discussion, for example. + “In my opinion, you don’t necessarily pigeonhole yourself. If you have the capability to dive deep into something…while you were a generalist before, I’m pretty sure after you dove into something specific, you can go back up if needed. You’re setting those boundaries yourself. No one else is doing that.” – Duncan Epping + Duncan understands why people might be worried about making shifts between generalist and specialist, but he’s seen people make some very big jumps. - Duncan shares the example of Cormac Hogan. He was a support engineer for EMC 20 years ago and then started working as a support engineer for VMware. When there were openings in technical marketing, Duncan remembered working with Cormac and suggested they bring Cormac onto the technical marketing team. Cormac was very storage focused for many years, but he would later focus on Kubernetes and is currently focused Data Services Manager. - “So he’s been going left to right, up and down, whenever someone asks. And the reason he’s capable of doing that is not because he’s thinking about being a generalist or being a specialist. He just has a passion for technology, and if someone asks him tomorrow, ‘hey, you need to focus on x, y, and z’ he’s going to dive into that and try to figure out what it is, how it works, and how he can help customers moving forward using a solution like that. And that solution could be a tiny little feature that is part of this bigger platform, or it could be that whole platform itself…. People are too worried about those things. If you understand the process of learning new technology, you can apply that to anything.” – Duncan Epping, commenting on Cormac Hogan’s career - Right now, Duncan is writing about running just for fun. He even puts a disclaimer on his blog about it. - “I’m not a coach. I’m not an influencer in any shape or form. I’m not a specialist even. I’ve been running for 25 years, and I’ve got experience in running. I’m just trying to learn more myself, and the way that I learn things is by writing things down. So that’s why I’m sharing it. And hopefully it’s useful to others, and if it’s not, at least I got to learn something. But if you apply that mindset, it doesn’t really matter if you’re pigeonholed into that particular section and that section of the world all of a sudden stops existing. Because you can learn about some other type of technology next week or the week after. I think it’s just that process that you need to focus on and not the particular thing that you need to learn.” – Duncan Epping - John re-emphasizes the title not being the goal but rather the process of curiosity, learning, and building relationships being the goal. * Duncan leaves us with an important disclaimer. + Duncan can write about running as much as he wants, but he’s never going to run a marathon in 2:10. + “The role and those promotions may never come…. There’s no guarantee whatsoever. And that’s why I think the focus should be in terms of following your passion and having fun and enjoying it. Because if you’re not enjoying it, it’s for sure not going to happen.” – Duncan Epping - Remember, even if those roles never come, we can always keep learning! * If you want to follow up with Duncan on this discussion, you can find him: + On Twitter / X – @DuncanYB + On LinkedIn – Duncan Epping + On his blog Yellow Bricks
Mentioned in the Outro* Check out Duncan’s VMUG Keynote – Six Fundamentals for Advancing Your Career and the accompanying blog article. + Nick loves that Duncan sets goals based on learning. + In this presentation Duncan discusses the idea of having an outcome goal that isn’t focused on a job role or endpoint and a process goal with some quantifiable steps toward the outcome. Setting outcome goals in this way makes them independent of job roles and can help set us up for future opportunities. * The idea of shifting your specialty was very interesting. + This is a willingness to go deep in a new area of technology and changing your focus. + To do this well you have to understand how you learn best and continue learning, knowing for a time you will be completely focused on learning the new area while being open to changing that focus in the future. - Building deep expertise in an area can help prevent distractions in an industry that changes constantly. - Developing expertise in multiple areas makes one very broad in technology. * One of the qualities of people who have reached some of the highest job levels for individual contributors like a principal engineer or Chief Technologist was being reliable – being someone others knew could and would go find an answer. + Are you developing a reputation of being reliable? * Duncan continued to follow his interests just like Stephanie Wong. Listen to these episodes for more of her story. + Episode 177 – Follow the Excitement, Follow the Challenge with Stephanie Wong (1/2) + Episode 178 – Being a Great Generalist and Finding Your Voice with Stephanie Wong (2/2) * There’s a great deal of humility in the way Duncan approaches his writing. Even if no one likes what he wrote, at least he got to learn something. + This is a great attitude that we can use for approaching so many situations in life. What can we learn from the situation even if it does not turn out the way we want? * If you’re looking for more help related to public speaking / presentations, check out + Neil Thompson’s Teach the Geek podcast + Episode 193 – Communication for Specialists with Neil Thompson (1/2) + Episode 194 – Question Askers and Problem Solvers with Neil Thompson (2/2)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
What would you do if your co-presenter for a breakout session at a large technology conference had to back out a couple of weeks before the event? One option is deliver the presentation yourself. That’s exactly what Duncan Epping did in this situation despite his crippling fear of public speaking at the time.
Duncan Epping is a Chief Technologist, a published author, a blogger, and someone who has given many presentations in different settings throughout his career. In episode 303, we have a focused conversation with Duncan on presentations and public speaking. You’ll hear the story of Duncan’s first public presentation at VMworld and why he decided to continue doing presentations. Duncan shares his learning process, how writing has helped him develop deep technical expertise, and how he’s been able to translate this into presentation slides. We talk through different settings for presentations like customer meetings, small groups, and very large groups and stress the importance of focusing on what the audience wants to know.
Original Recording Date: 10-29-2024
Topics – Meet Duncan Epping, A Focus on Presentations and Public Speaking, Lessons Learned Then and Later, Writing and Distilling Concepts to the Core, Think about the Audience, An Outline for Presentation Building, High and Low Stakes Presentations2:37 – Meet Duncan Epping* Duncan Epping is presently a Chief Technologist in the VCF Business Unit at Broadcom. In the past, Duncan worked for VMware and has been part of the storage and availability team, the vSAN team, technical marketing, and even professional services. + Duncan lives in the south of The Netherlands in an area called Helmond. This is near the city of Eindhoven, which is known for its association with technology companies like Philips and ASML. + In the early days of his exposure to virtualization, Duncan was mainly focused on implementations with vSphere. He later would learn about and focus on Site Recovery Manager (SRM) and vCloud Director (VCD). + Duncan is also a blogger and the sole maintainer of Yellow Bricks.
4:17 – A Focus on Presentations and Public Speaking* Nick mentioned the diversity of Duncan’s experience comes out in his writing and especially in his presentations. Duncan has done a number of public presentations at conferences and user groups. He’s even been the keynote speaker a number of times. We wanted to have a focused conversation with Duncan on presentations through the lens of career progression. * Nick feels like he heard a story on an older episode of The Geek Whisperers about Duncan’s first public presentation being at a large technology conference with hundreds of people in attendance. + This is something Duncan would not recommend others do or repeat. Looking back, it was pretty scary and daunting. + Duncan had been blogging about vSphere High Availability (or vSphere HA) and developed a deep expertise in this area. In parallel, he got to know and built relationships with the product management and engineering teams for vSphere HA. + A member of the HA team at one point asked Duncan if he would help them create slides or possibly help deliver a presentation on the topic. Duncan agreed to help create slides but refused to do any public speaking. + “It’s an interesting thing because when they asked me, I had presented before, but it was probably for a group of like 5 or 6 people, more like a group discussion than a presentation. And it usually was with peers as well. Now, just to paint the picture, even when I needed to do that, I would always get extremely terrified. I had a pretty big fear of public speaking in general….” – Duncan Epping - Many times in high school if Duncan had to deliver a presentation on a specific day, he would call in sick that morning. Duncan would get so nervous about the presentation it would make him physically sick. + Duncan worked together with one of the lead engineers for HA at the time and contributed slides highlighting best practices. They split the work roughly 50/50. - Once the slides were created, the two of them went through and highlighted the talking points. Duncan shared the things he would highlight if he were discussing the topic with a customer. - The engineer told Duncan it made more sense for him to deliver the slides he had created on stage during the presentation because he knew them so well. The two of them could be co-presenters. - Duncan agreed to think about it but wanted to know how many people would be coming to the session. The engineer estimated about 100 people. - “I’ve never done more than 5 people. I wouldn’t even get in front of a classroom with people that I know extremely well, so 100 people for me is insane.” – Duncan Epping, thinking through the chance to present at a conference + Somehow Duncan was able to convince himself to co-present with the HA engineer at the VMworld conference in San Francisco. + A few weeks before the presentation was scheduled to take place, Duncan’s co-presenter had to back out of coming to the conference. No one else from the HA team could attend the conference, so the only option would be for Duncan to deliver the presentation on his own. - At this point, conference attendees had already registered to attend the session. Duncan agreed to go forward as the sole presenter. + “I logged in, and I expected to see 100 people, 120 people. But it wasn’t 100 or 120. It ended up being 600+ people that had already signed up. And it got worse because on the day itself the room was actually completely packed. So it was like 750 or 760 people or something like that. You can imagine that if you’re terrified of public speaking and your very first session is at VMworld…and you’re actually in one of the bigger rooms and the room is completely packed that it’s going to be a crazy, crazy experience. So that’s why I said it’s something that I probably would never recommend anyone to do. This is not the order in which you should be doing public speaking in any shape or form, so don’t repeat what I did.” – Duncan Epping + Thinking back, Duncan feels like the session was probably below average. Attendees rated it ok. They may have come because they read a blog by Duncan or a book he had written. + Duncan says walking off that stage after the presentation felt horrible, but it taught him something. + “It was horrible, and I also knew then that if I wanted to do this again, I needed to have first of all a completely different approach. And then secondly, I also knew I would probably need to do this extremely often to get more comfortable at presenting…. It’s not a skill you acquire overnight. That’s for sure.” – Duncan Epping, reflecting on his first public presentation at a conference * How did Duncan prepare for the presentation once he agreed to do it? + One thing that stands out for Duncan is not wanting to make any mistakes during the presentation. When people do this, they tend to over-rehearse. - “I literally knew every single dot, comma, period on every single slide. I was so overprepared. It’s not like I learned a full script, but it could have been a full script that I learned. So every single slide I knew what to say, when to say every single sentence, when to pause, when to go to the next part, etc.” – Duncan Epping - Duncan’s level of preparedness made him even more terrified while presenting. He was afraid he might start forgetting things. + “Of course you need to rehearse things, but you don’t need to do it 26 times. I would encourage you to rehearse it because if you don’t rehearse it, that first session is going to be a rehearsal for sure, and it’s going to come across as a rehearsal. But don’t do it 26 or 27 times because you’re going to drive yourself completely nuts, and you’re going to get extremely scared that you’ll send up forgetting things. And in the end, people don’t know what you’re going to say anyway, so if you forget something, you can always come back to that point if you want to get that point across. And if it doesn’t really matter for the story, you just skip it.” – Duncan Epping, giving advice on preparing for a presentation + Duncan put a lot of pressure on himself for this presentation too, feeling it could impact his career positively or negatively based on how it turned out, which only increased the level of anxiety he felt. - Many of us might treat presenting at a big conference as a possible career inflection point even while we prepare for it. - Duncan shared that around the time of his presentation (12-13 years ago), there were close to 20,000 attendees at the VMworld conference. Being a presenter was a huge deal, and he was invited to present as a subject matter expert. - Duncan had been writing a lot of content about HA leading up the event. Material from Duncan’s first book on vSphere HA and some of his blogs on the topic were used to create whitepapers on best practice. - “But for me, yeah, it very much felt like if I nail this, if I kill this…and they’re already using my content, for sure they will hire me…. So for me…it felt like that…could be a giant moment for my career. If I nail this and everyone talks about it, I for sure will easily move up the ranks.” – Duncan Epping, on the career impact of delivering a presentation
15:45 – Lessons Learned Then and Later* How many of the lessons learned were immediately incorporated after the conference, and how many came years later reflecting back on it for Duncan? + Duncan likes to reflect back pretty quickly after things happen. He gives the example of running and waiting a couple days after the run to think through what happened. + After the conference presentation, Duncan tried to determine what he did (what worked), what he did not do (what did not work), and how he could improve (why did something work / not work). Much of the advice Duncan will give others is a number of things he learned after his first few presentations. + When looking back on an event like a presentation, Duncan likes to create something like a best practices guide for refining certain skills moving forward. + “For me it was fairly straightforward. I knew I wasn’t good at public speaking. I didn’t like public speaking. I didn’t even like speaking in public, and with speaking in public I don’t mean in front of a group of 700 people. Even during a meeting when you’re in a room with 10 or 12 or 15 people, I normally would not be the person raising my hand and then saying something in front of a group. Even if someone would ask a question, and in the group no one would have the answer, I typically wouldn’t even raise my hand and provide the answer if I knew the answer to that particular question. So I was never really comfortable in terms of doing that. And that was also one of the main reasons I forced myself to get comfortable with it.” – Duncan Epping + Working for a larger company often times affords you the chance to answer a question in front of one or more of your leaders. Being able to answer in those moments (when you know the answer) can raise your profile across the organization. - Duncan highlights the importance for each of us in being ready to do this to grow both personally and professionally. - Duncan says forcing himself to speak up in meetings and also speaking in public helped him tremendously over time. * John highlights Duncan’s linkage of fear of speaking to large groups to the fear of speaking up in a group setting / business meeting. Facing one of those fears is closely linked to facing the other fear. + Duncan had to get used to sharing his ideas in front of a group or audience he didn’t completely know. + Duncan mentions he would usually be ok speaking up in a small group of other professional services consultants during his time in that role. He knew the people in the group were all at mostly the same level. + “If you’re in front of a group, you have no idea who is in the audience. So you don’t know what they know, and you also don’t know what they don’t know. Those are two different things. And the same applies in a meeting.” – Duncan Epping - Duncan gives an example of being in a meeting with an engineer with deep technical knowledge as well as a CTO or CEO. These kinds of settings made it more challenging for him to speak up. + The fear in the smaller group was not the same as the fear of public speaking in front of a large group. The latter was about 10 times worse and caused a lot more anxiety according to Duncan. - “I just had to force myself to get over the fact that there could be someone in the audience that knows more than you do. And that’s fine. You need to be ok with that. And the other thing that you have to be comfortable with is sometimes saying ‘I don’t know. I’ll get back to you…. I don’t have the answer in this particular scenario, so I’ll get back to you.’” – Duncan Epping - This was hard for Duncan to do at the start of his career, but he has no problem with it now. When Duncan does not know, he will be the first one to admit it and is willing to go find the answer to the question someone asked. + Nick mentions we often feel like it makes us somehow lesser to admit we don’t know something. But admitting it and going to find the answer helps us learn and also helps the person who asked the question learn. - Duncan says admitting we don’t know is much better than trying to make something up in the moment that is not correct. - Having served on a number of VCDX panels for prospective candidates, Duncan has seen people try to cover up for not knowing the reasons behind their design decisions. It actually made the situation worse. In these moments it is far better to admit you do not know or forgot to document the reason rather than making up a story that is incorrect. - “You may as well say that you don’t know, and that’s fine. And most people are ok with that. I’ve never had a situation when someone said, ‘I don’t accept that answer.’ If you don’t know, you don’t know.” – Duncan Epping
22:49 – Writing and Distilling Concepts to the Core* John says maybe we skipped a step. The first step is to become a subject matter expert. Once you become a subject matter expert, you have to determine how to present that information effectively. Duncan has been a blogger, podcaster, written books, and given a number of presentations. What process does Duncan use to learn content, write about it, and then write about it authoritatively? + The way Duncan learns is by writing things out. He learns how something really works in depth by taking a really long article and trying to condense it into a couple of paragraphs. + Duncan says this can be the complete opposite of how other people might learn. Frank Denneman might write 60+ pages about NUMA, for example. Duncan likes to distill things down to the core, while Frank likes to get deep into the weeds because it helps with an understanding of the way things work end to end. Duncan’s learning process is the opposite. + Duncan has written books that take technical topics into a very deep level of detail. But for blog articles, he will try to condense things as much as possible. + When learning about a new topic, Duncan will try to break things down into smaller parts. A storage system or hypervisor will have multiple components. Duncan would then write down each component and what it does, continuing to break down each component into subcomponents where applicable from there. Once he has all the components, Duncan then tries to put them all together again to describe how the larger system works. + Duncan says for a long time he assumed this process was the same in other people’s brains but learned that is not the case. His daughter, for example, needed help through the process of breaking down a big concept into smaller components to make an outline for a school assignment. + Duncan likes to follow the same process in his presentations – starting with an introduction, breaking that into smaller chunks, and at the end bring everything back together. + “I always feel that especially for a presentation (but the same applies to an article or to a book), you typically have to repeat yourself at least 3 or 4 times before you get the point across. And it has nothing to do with the way you communicate. It’s just the way people process information. That’s what I tend to do in my head anyway, so I may as well use the same outline for a blog post, for a book, or for a presentation.” – Duncan Epping + John says this matches the pattern we’ve seen of turning information into knowledge. - First, writing is thinking. Information we consume is ephemeral unless we process it by writing it down. - John mentions this pattern of learning Duncan has shared seems to match the Zettelkasten method of note taking discussed in How to Take Smart Notes. - We originally discussed this concept of “writing is thinking” with Josh Duffney in Episode 156 if you want to learn more.
28:42 – Think about the Audience* Nick feels like the process of going deep and working to condense a very long article as Duncan does almost writes the presentation for him. Once Duncan has written the couple of paragraphs for a finished article, the content is down to the key points that could be part of a presentation. Did this process naturally happen as a byproduct of the way Duncan writes? + Duncan feels it happened naturally, and he had done a lot of writing before he started presenting. The writing helped Duncan craft presentations and to convey a particular story. + In fact, Duncan started writing even before he began his blog, Yellow Bricks. He had a community forum / website all revolving around hard core punk music that contained album reviews, interviews with bands, etc. + “That writing has always been something that was part of me, and that definitely helps processing information in some shape or form…or think about things in a particular way…and also think about ‘what do people actually want to know about this particular thing?’ Whether that’s a CD / an album or whether that’s a product or a feature doesn’t really matter. You really need to understand what people would like to know….” – Duncan Epping, on writing + Duncan approaches content creation by putting himself in the shoes of his audience. + “If I would read this myself, what are the 5 things I would like to get out of it? What should I learn at the end of this conversation? And that applies to both writing a blog article but also when you do a presentation.” – Duncan Epping + When Duncan is asked to present at an event, the first thing he asks is about the audience for the presentation. It is challenging to present something useful if you do not know the audience. - Duncan consistently wants to bring value to an audience if he is presenting, and it’s similar when he is writing. - We need to know who our audience is and what we think the audience would be interested in learning. + “When you write blogs…and it doesn’t matter what the subject is…you’ll quickly find out if it’s interesting or not because people will be reading it or they will not be reading it. And the same applies to a presentation. You can quickly see if people are interested or not. You see it in their faces. You will notice it after the session as well. People will thank you for the content that you delivered, or if it goes completely silent and no one says anything, it probably wasn’t as good as you thought it would be. So you have that fairly quick feedback loop regardless, I think. I think those things are really important. Try to figure out what customers, readers, or listeners would want to consume.” – Duncan Epping
32:34 – An Outline for Presentation Building* Does Duncan document and then translate into a presentation or start with slides and filling them out? + The first thing Duncan likes to do and would recommend others do is figure out a topic or focus area for the presentation. + Then, within the focus area Duncan will try to come up with 5-7 things to discuss the presentation (i.e. subtopics). The exact number of things matters less than having a list of things to cover within your focus area. + There will be an overarching theme to the discussion. Duncan gives the example of focusing on vSAN stretched cluster configurations as the broad topic. Within that topic, what would customers be interested in? Some examples might be… - The configuration of a stretched cluster - Best practices - Failure scenarios and how they are handled + Once Duncan has done the above (selected a topic and some subtopics), he will create an empty slide deck, give it a title, and create sections that align to the items / subtopics he wrote down. - For each item (or subtopic), Duncan will create slides to see if it actually makes sense. + Duncan usually does 4-5 rehearsals once he has finished building a new set of slides. During that first rehearsal, one would notice how well some slides or sections of work or don’t work. This is the chance to rearrange and change the flow if needed. - When you work for a technology company like VMware / Broadcom, there are many slides made by product team members to chose from when building a presentation. Duncan will use some slides that others have made but also has to create his own slides. + Duncan gets asked to do presentations on various topics. It can range from things he’s written about to those he hasn’t. - As a Chief Technologist, Duncan is responsible for understanding and shaping the product strategy and roadmap (set of features and functionality)p. Sometimes he needs to create slides for things that don’t yet exist. - Duncan mentions creating a slide for a product manager last week based on a feature he requested. In addition to this, Duncan will write the user story for the product teams to better understand how they might implement this feature. + “Of course it’s 10 times easier to create a slide deck when you’ve already written an article about it because you exactly know what you want to talk about. If you don’t know what you’re going to talk about it’s slightly more complex. But, when you do this on almost a daily basis, it gets a bit easier…. When it’s a presentation in front of a large audience, you need to make sure that slide deck works end to end. Every single bullet point needs to be spot on. But when it’s a meeting with a customer, then I can grab 20 slides, talk through the slides, and then you get to certain areas where you may not have any content but you still get that discussion going. And as a result, it still works.” – Duncan Epping - Duncan has learned to be very flexible in what and how he presents in customer meetings. But what enables this flexibility is having a well-prepared deck and focusing on covering the content he is supposed to be covering during the meeting.
37:42 – High and Low Stakes Presentations* What if Duncan needs to deliver a presentation to people in different roles or at different technical levels? Does he change the content on the slides, change the way he discusses things and the level of depth, or both? + Duncan says it depends on how deep the slide deck is. Sometimes the material is really best suited for an administrator, consultant, or architect. Advanced settings, log files, and deep configuration details are near impossible to discuss at an extremely high level. + Some of the content these days is built so one could use it to speak to administrators, consultants, architects but also to people at a manager level or slightly higher. - “In that particular case I may remove one or two slides that are too geeky, but I’ll just keep the higher-level slides which then allow me to talk through the story….” – Duncan Epping, on adjusting the content for the audience * Duncan mentioned customer meetings as a form of presentation. These atmospheres could be very conversational with the audience. Does Duncan feel more comfortable when a presentation has more interaction with the audience / is more conversational? + If Duncan is in front of a group of customers and not on a stage, it is much easier. You can sit down, have some coffee, go through a set of slides, and have a conversation. Questions throughout allow you to talk about different areas. + “But it’s also because of the setting. It’s much more relaxed, right? It’s much different when you’re up on stage and you’ve got 500 people or 2000 people staring at you…. When you do a keynote, and there’s 500 people sitting there, well, you still need to make sure you know your story end to end. And if you mess up, there’s 500 people stating at you. When you’re in a group of 20 people you can always say, ‘let’s take 5 steps back,’ and then it’s not an issue.” – Duncan Epping + Duncan tells us public speaking is not scary any longer, but he still gets nervous from time to time. + In having so many discussions over the past 10 years, Duncan is confident he could have a discussion with a customer and feel fully comfortable. This is different than presenting in front of a group. + John says this is about the stakes of different situations and how bad figuratively or literally falling on your face would be.
Mentioned in the Outro* The way Duncan learns by taking a high level concept, breaking it down, and putting it back together isn’t so different than people who decided to take a computer apart to learn how it works as a system. * Condensing a long article into just a couple of paragraphs can be challenging. It requires summarization and brevity, and it’s really a skill to be able to do this. It is a skill we can use to communicate with people at higher levels within an organization (i.e. our managers and above). + We can practice this summarization and brevity in our writing, and it will help us in our verbal communication. + If you are someone who does not feel comfortable speaking up in meetings when leadership is present, try changing the way you communicate by using summarization and brevity. * If writing is thinking, that is a 100% transferrable skill across different areas. + You don’t have to write about technology. You can write about anything you are learning. But we can make our writing publicly accessible for recruiters and hiring managers and thus show them how we think. * If you want to hear more stories about public speaking, check out: + Episode 73 – Journey to Presenting at Conventions with Al Rasheed + Episode 74 – Feedback and Career Impacts of Convention Presentations with Al Rasheed + Consider presenting at a user group or join Toastmasters - Check out Episode 230 – A Steward of the Community with Chris Williams (2/3) to get a perspective from a user group leader who encourages people to present. - Toastmasters is also an option to become better at public speaking. Check out Episode 254 – Train and Teach: A Mixture of Techniques and Concepts with Larry Roberts (1/3). - If you’re a STEM professional looking for help with public speaking, be sure to check out Neil Thompson’s Teach the Geek program.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
How do you know when to stop doing something you love? Amy Lewis would say decisions like these require us to be intentional about putting something down so we can pick up something else.
Amy is an unapologetic marketer working in the tech industry, and she was once a Geek Whisperer. This week in episode 302 we explore the genesis of Amy’s involvement in The Geek Whisperers podcast. You’ll hear how it all began, how it changed over time, the overarching purpose, and why the show eventually ended. Amy speaks to the need for intention in our decision making, shares advice for those in our industry impacted by layoffs, and we learn how Amy progressed into people management. For the prospective or current people leaders out there, listen closely for some great tips.
Original Recording Date: 09-19-2024
Amy Lewis is the director of enterprise marketing at GitHub. If you missed part 1 of our discussion about Amy, check out Episode 301.
Topics – Whispering with Intention, Advice for Those Impacted by a Layoff, Pursuing People Leadership, Parting Thoughts with a Geek Whisperers Twist2:31 – Whispering with Intention* As big fans of The Geek Whisperers podcast, Nick and John ask Amy how it all began. Nick remembers finding this podcast in 2016 / 2017 and how he couldn’t stop listening. + The hosts of The Geek Whisperers were Amy Lewis, John Mark Troyer, and Matt Broberg. + Amy likes to make her own luck and will jump in when she sees certain circumstances. Inthe case of The Geek Whisperers, Amy feels there was a lot of good fortune. + John, Matt, and Amy knew of each other and were running similar programs at different companies. + Amy thinks John and Matt had been talking about a podcast idea and knew each other a little better. Amy remembers first meeting Matt at a VMworld conference. + The original purpose of Amy, Matt, and John getting together was to talk shop. John had a great editorial vision for what could be a podcast. + “Everything just kind of disappeared into a group effort. It was magical…. It was just this amazing synergy. And when we first started we really did talk shop. It was a lot of influence marketing. It was about programs we were running. It was a time where influence marketing in a B2B setting was unheard of…. And then there was a moment where we realized so many people were hungry for hearing stories of career, and we decided to pivot. It’s a passion for all of us, and we started to tell the stories that people kind of couldn’t get another way, ask questions that other people might not be able to ask, share stories that we’d overheard or connections that we’d had…. We did what we hoped to do – create a body of work that we hoped would serve a community we really loved and were proud to be part of.” – Amy Lewis + Nick remembers Amy’s mention of listening back to past episodes of The Geek Whisperers to help herself fall asleep. * How do you decide to lay something down that you really enjoy and is very successful (i.e. The Geek Whisperers)? + Amy says they found a natural stopping point in terms of number of episodes and in what year. + My re-iterates how difficult it can be to produce weekly content. She remembers heavy travel and doing food blogging while still being part of the podcast. + Amy would help on the editorial side of the show, while Matt and John would often do editing and write show notes. Looking back she wonders how the 3 of them kept it going when they were all so busy. + “We didn’t want to fade away. We wanted to end strong, and we wanted to do it with intention…. That was a shared agreement with the 3 of us. So we stayed in while we were in, and we all agreed when we were out. And it just kind of speaks I think to the synergy of the group…. We didn’t know what was going to happen day to day. We just really enjoyed talking to each other, and it made sense to record it. Then suddenly it became a thing. And there is some pressure. It was hard. We had hard days and we had days where we were tired and really had to gut it out. And we really kind of found our groove. I don’t know. It just had a natural lifecycle. It would be hard even with retrospect to know. So no, we didn’t know where we were going to end when we started, but we knew when it was time. And I think all of us feel really good about that.” – Amy Lewis, on being part of The Geek Whisperers - Amy says they did not know where it would end when they got started, but it is amazing to think about how many people the podcast mattered to. + John mentions this idea of retiring something while it’s still good. - “It’s ok to put something down because it means you get to pick something up…. I think until you make that commitment to symbolically put something down you don’t make space to pick something else up.” – Amy Lewis - Amy highlights mentoring a number of women related to maternity leave and how to bring family into their career lives. Going on maternity leave forces hard decisions because life is different before compared to after. This example works well to help people understand they have to choose to put something down to pick something else up. - Intention means laying something down and being ok with it. Amy highlights the importance of being intentional when we think through choices. * Amy says we often feel things happen to us. And right now our industry is being obliterated with layoffs and career choices being made for people. + Amy mentions she has been part of workforce reductions and understands what it is like. + “We have to where we can bring intention into our career and life and direction…. It’s important to figure out what you’re going to stop doing so you can start doing something else.” – Amy Lewis + Part of intention is setting boundaries and understanding our preferences (likes and dislikes). And intention is needed to put something down to allow for picking something up. + We can’t learn a new skill if we’re too exhausted, for example. * John says doing things that are valuable probably aren’t easy. To increase your value likely means picking up something else that is difficult. It is almost laughable that we can maintain everything in our lives that is also difficult when we try to pick up something new that is difficult. + If someone other than you said they were going to do this, you would caution them to reconsider and help that person understand what they are trying to do is not sustainable. + Amy gives the analogy of a weight lifter at their max and then adding more weight. It’s going to be an injury. * Amy highlights the finite nature of publishing. After each book, there was a delineated stopping point. After being in online marketing, she feels more like Sisyphus pushing a rock up a hill + “Even if it’s fake, we have to create moments of celebrations and endpoints, and this is the same concept, which…makes tons of sense to us in all other aspects of our lives. But somehow we burn ourselves out in career, particularly in technology…. The joy is there’s always something new, but we’re the ultimate push the rock up the hill. What’s our endpoint? The pixels don’t end. Where is the edge of the internet?” – Amy Lewis - Working from home can make it hard to have a defined stopping point. + Don’t worry – Amy can feel your pushback as you listen to this. - “You have to choose for yourself. I strongly recommend it. It’s good for mental health. It’s good for longevity. It’s good for all the things. Decide where some of your parameters are. Decide what wins look like. Decide what the outside edge looks like. And decide very firmly. Be brave. Be bold. Put something down to pick something up.” – Amy Lewis + John has a team member who speaks about only having a finite number of tokens to spend each day on work and other parts of life. - “If you’re not making a choice, a choice will be made for you. Sometimes it’s your body that will make the choice for you.” – John White
14:57 – Advice for Those Impacted by a Layoff* “Our best work doesn’t come under duress. It comes in those quiet moments.” – Amy Lewis + The reason we get ideas in the shower is because we stopped thinking about it. This applies to careers too. This definitely applies to those listening who may be in transition and are thinking about what they plan to do next. + When a choice is made for you, all you can focus on is what your next choice will be. It could be you want to gain or learn a new skill. Perhaps you want to intentionally take a break. - Amy found it very hard to take this advice. - In one of her last transitions between roles, Amy negotiated her new job offer so that she had a small gap of intentional time before starting work. - You can give something up to get a short break between jobs as part of the negotiation. - Amy encourages us to think of things we can control in these types of situations. * If someone listening has been laid off or lost a job, what are some ways Amy has found to get past the hurt, angst, and shame of such an event? + “If you think that other people don’t hurt and that you’re broken because you do hurt, just hear me say, ‘it stinks. It always stinks. It is painful grief.’ Don’t try to power through that. Write it down. Say it out loud. Talk to people. But sometimes just the very act of acknowledging and saying, ‘that is terrible and I feel terrible and that makes me feel terrible’ is one of the first things to kind of get through it.” – Amy Lewis + Amy tells the story of being part of a division that was laid off. Even though they knew it was coming, that event happening was terrible. So many people in our industry are going through this. + “Know you’re not alone. And know that you’re not weak, bad, or failed. And this is not the end…. Like with any grief process, don’t try to make it be better immediately…. It is going to knock your confidence. It’s going to feel bad. It does feel bad…because at its root, a choice was made that you didn’t get to participate in. And that is terrible.” – Amy Lewis, on advice for those processing a layoff + For every story of hurt and awful things like layoffs, Amy sees turnaround stories. She appreciates people telling the stories of life after working at a certain company. + John mentions we often discount the effect of our human emotions as technical people, often expecting ourselves to react to facts instead of giving the grace to ourselves to react emotionally. We can think the emotion reaction doesn’t make sense and spiral out of control. - We don’t often realize our bodies have to go through the emotional processing of what’s happened. The facts don’t just win out over everything. - Amy mentions the fear people have about the rise of AI or generative AI tools. Code may be deterministic, but human language is non-deterministic. We gravitate toward what is safe and predictable (i.e. the beauty of technology is its deterministic nature). It’s very unsettling to have an illogical thing happen. - Amy believes our human ability to make rational choices in irrational spaces implies we will be able to use tools like generative AI without being mastered by them. - “The thing that makes us more able to compete is also the thing that’s going to make us hurt.” – Amy Lewis, on being human - Amy had a friend who once said, “sometimes you just can’t square it.” - When we are people who work and live in worlds of logic, we have to admit things do not make sense. It can be freeing to admit something makes no sense, allowing you to do what makes sense for you. - Amy sees people re-skilling and applying for jobs differently. She feels like our industry will rebound. - New jobs will likely appear in different ways. How work is going to be will change, and the jobs available will change. - “I am an optimist, and I don’t think it’s over. I think we have to decide what’s next.” – Amy Lewis, on the golden age of tech and how our industry looks moving forward - John reiterates that there is going to be immediate short term pain when you’ve gone through job loss. It can destabilize one’s identity or hurt your self-confidence. John doesn’t think there is an easy way to look at the macro view in that situation. - “Sometimes when you’re in a hole, it just takes somebody else to go, ‘the hole is not bottomless. There’s nobody who is making the hole deeper, and here let me help you understand how to get out of the hole.’ Sometimes you just need to lean on an outside perspective…. I need somebody to tell me everything’s going to be ok so I can just trust that. And that will help me keep on going.” – John White - Amy hopes the above can be an outcome of this podcast. If you are employed, reach out to someone who needs that encouragement right now. Amy says she had the benefit of someone reaching out to her with encouragement during a difficult time. - “So if you’re somebody who’s feeling ok right now, I would just challenge all of us to reach out to someone who you think may not be. Check in on them, and give them that encouragement. Give away something because you’re going to need it someday…. Nobody rides this ride without hitting the whammies at some point.” – Amy Lewis, on encouraging others - Amy is Geek Whispering to us during this podcast.
24:34 – Pursuing People Leadership* What made Amy want to pursue people management, and how has she helped others determine what they want to do next? + Amy tells us it feels like people management was inevitable in her career. When we was in publishing, Amy invented an unpaid internship that she later convinced leadership to fund as a role. + In total, Amy ended up with 7 or 8 interns, and most of them went into publishing as a career after the internship. She was willing to teach them and help move their career forward. Amy tells us she has stayed connected with these folks over time. + “I think that’s where I first got a taste for connecting people with opportunity. These were incredibly bright people, so I in no way, shape, or form get full credit. But I knew how to open a door, and I really always believe in opening a door where I can.” – Amy Lewis + Amy became a people manager and a director at the same time and developed a habit of inheriting teams due to various circumstances. - She likes managing people and can often see connective tissue where others don’t. - Amy shares an anecdote from her time at Solidfire. After coming back from vacation, Amy had been placed in charge of field marketing and was told that her CMO had hired someone new. Though surprising at the time, Amy says it turned out really well. + People management is hard and is very different from being an individual contributor. - “Quickly, whoever reports to you will be better at their job than you, and that is the way it should be. You should help them be better at their job, but that does not mean necessarily on point expertise. They are going to be better experts because they are putting in 8 hours a day. Their seat time will always exceed yours. So you have to genuinely enjoy the HR side, and the HR side is really hard…. It is a hard job. You have to be ready to support people. You have to be ready to do hard things…. If you do not enjoy people, do not do it.” – Amy Lewis, on people management - Managers have to deal with people’s personal trauma. This could mean an employee has a family member with cancer, wants to quit, or needs to be fired. Someone once told Amy one of these things is almost always true when you’re a manager. - Amy emphasizes the need for managers to take courses, read books, listen to podcasts, and do HR training to gain greater managerial skills. It’s part of the job. - If the hard things don’t sound fun for you, people management is likely not for you. We also do not have to manage people to progress in our career. + As a first time people manager, Amy’s comments resonated with John. - It might be more difficult for a high achieving individual contributor to step into the role of people manager because of the temptation to encourage people to do what they did. - Amy says sometimes people managers end up competing with the people reporting to them! The people manager has to accept that they will no longer be the expert like their people will. - John shares a story of being at a sales kickoff and being required to attend a session on becoming a better technical manager rather instead of a session focused on a new innovation. + “It is truly putting something down to pick something up.” – Amy Lewis, on people management - Amy has had player / coach roles, and these are more like a job and a half with a large team. - These kinds of positions require you to make strategic choices about what you will and won’t do. There is no way to do it all. - Every company is different, but Amy likes the fact that John’s leadership redirected technical managers to get better at their craft. - “We had several of these conversations during the Geek Whisperer days. I applaud folks who tried management and decided they genuinely got more joy in their life from not managing people, and I think that’s ok too. I know plenty of people with successful career trajectories on every single combination of that – people who manage people, people who managed people and stepped out of it, people who never want to manage people and are very open about it. I applaud a world we live in where all those ways of being can be celebrated.” – Amy Lewis + When Amy first became a manager she was terrified, admitted it, and went to get help immediately. - Amy is thankful people were willing to save her from what she did not know. - New managers should seek help in the form of a mentor, reading books, etc. Do many things to get help. - The new people manager / leader is going to make mistakes and will have to learn how to forgive themselves for it. - “I’ve had the fortune of running a few just incredible teams. Teams that give you grace to fail and grow with them is such a gift. So the number 1 thing you can do is build trust. And say what you know and say what you don’t know.” – Amy Lewis - When Amy inherited the team at Solidfire, she had never run field marketing, the people knew more than she did, and she had no budget. Amy showed up to the first meeting with that team and was open and honest about what she had and what she didn’t have. She would elevate their work, remove barriers, and established herself as someone the team could be honest with. - “From the flip side, if you decide you do this and you get all in…build trust and tell the truth with that team, and encourage them to trust each other. And if people aren’t ready to be in that boat rowing along with you, then help them find the next opportunity.” – Amy Lewis, to those thinking about becoming people managers * Did Amy have to learn how to do 1-1 meetings with her employees after becoming a manager, or did it come naturally because of Amy’s previous experience? + Amy says she wanted to hide from it, and she has seen new managers ignore the power of the 1-1. Now, Amy is adamant about having 1-1s with her people. + Some of the episodes Amy, John, and Matt get asked about the most are the ones with Dom Delfino. Dom is a mentor of Amy’s. + “One thing about getting a mentor like Dom or any good mentor…they are going to tell you things you don’t want to hear probably immediately…. I knew I didn’t know field marketing, but I thought that somehow being a good human and having good sense was going to save me…. If you prioritize your 1-1s with your people, other things with take care of themselves. You’ll figure the rest out…. I am a story of what not to do. Do not run from your 1-1s. They will catch you.” – Amy Lewis + Dom Delfino told Amy the most important thing a manager can be doing is having regular 1-1 calls with their employees. + Amy highly recommends checking out the Manager Tools podcast series for those just getting started. - This podcast covers much of the basics and is a great refresher for anyone, regardless of skill level. John says Manager Tools has been extremely valuable to him as well. - The same group also runs a show called Career Tools, which has a lot of great content on writing your resume, doing a job search, etc. - John mentions one of his teachers encouraging him to do the basics better to really progress. It wasn’t about advanced techniques. It was about doing the basics better. + If you are someone who is between things, you can train for the job you want next. - “You don’t have to have a team to train for the team you want to manage. Go in there and listen to it and get yourself ready so that when the opportunity finds you, you’re ready.” – Amy Lewis, on the Manager Tools podcast
37:45 – Parting Thoughts with a Geek Whisperers Twist* It was Amy’s idea to have a little fun and ask her the familiar closing question from The Geek Whisperers. What’s one thing in career Amy would never do again in her career? + “I’m such a positive person, but I learn through negative space.” – Amy Lewis + Amy says don’t move for the title, whether that means relocate, change companies, or both. Avoid letting the appeal of a title lure you somewhere. - Being able to make a move does not mean you should make it. - Looking back, Amy feels there were a couple of times where she didn’t look carefully enough before making a change. In other instances, Amy took a necessary pause to truly examine if something sounded too good to be true. - “One of the things that’s a cheap and easy sell, particularly in this time where things are so chaotic, can be the lure of a high flying title. And I would say the corollary is probably don’t ignore what may sound like a title that’s ‘beneath you.’ Set that aside and really look at the work you’re doing every day and the people you’re doing it with and the people you’re reporting to. So, if you get glamoured, the title is the easiest thing in the world to change…. You will not be made whole by that title…. Don’t ignore or overlook something that you think is beneath you, and don’t get lured by the glamour of something that sounds amazing.” – Amy Lewis - Listen to Amy’s analogy about the Moody Café and how it relates to jobs and job titles. + John says this sounds a lot like career progression isn’t the only thing in the world. We should assess if a particular job is something we should do and if we’ve already spent all our tokens. - “Progression can mean what you would like it to mean…. You said it beautifully in terms of consider how many tokens you’ve got, and consider what makes you happy and really fulfills you. Look at the work. Look at the people. Look at the management chain. The title is the most fluid thing of all of it.” – Amy Lewis - And remember. you may have to lay something down to progress. * If you want to follow up on this conversation with Amy, you can contact her: + On LinkedIn + On Threads – @amylewi
Mentioned in the Outro* Nick thinks “once a Geek Whisperer” might not be an accurate description of Amy Lewis. Maybe it should be more like “still a Geek Whisperer?” + Nick recently realized while editing this episode that he still had episodes of The Geek Whisperers downloaded to his phone and was able to listen to them again. Amy, John, and Matt had an amazing chemistry that welcomed you as a listener, making you feel like you were in the discussions with them and learning with them. They were also welcoming to Nick when he was a new member of the same technical community. * The Geek Whisperers as a body of work led to new opportunities for the hosts (Amy, Matt, and John). What the your body of work that makes you stand out? + Maybe it isn’t a podcast, blog, or video series. How are you making an impact inside your company or outside it whether paid to do it or not? How are you serving others in the same way Adam Grant describes in Give and Take (the idea of otherish giving)? + Keep documenting your accomplishments, community service, your hobbies, community service, etc. All of these things can help us build a body of work. If at least the documentation of your body of work is publicly accessible it allows people to see a little bit of who you are before they talk to you. * When working on a project, remember things have an endpoint. Being intentional means you might have to make the choice to put something down due to circumstances in your life so you an pick something else up. Don’t be ashamed or afraid to keep re-evaluating over time. + In Episode 286 – Succession Planning: Delegation Skills and Technical Ownership with Max Kanat-Alexander (2/3), Max tells us he thinks about how he will hand off a project before he starts it. Maybe you don’t think about it at the beginning, but you can regularly re-evaluate your involvement as part of being intentional. + For another discussion of being intentional, check out Episode 165 – Excel by Being Intentional with Andrew Miller (1/3). * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page for an aggregated list of our most impactful conversations on the topic. * Amy has also recently launched the Unicorns in the Breakroom podcast with Sarah Vela – a podcast to help you figure out corporate life. + Unicorns in the Breakroom on Apple Podcasts + Unicorns in the Breakroom on Spotify
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman * Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Who knew leaving publishing might result in a career as a marketer in the tech industry? Amy Lewis was encouraged to pursue a role at Cisco by a career counselor who recognized her unique strengths. Now Amy refers to herself as an unapologetic marketer and a people person. On the soccer field and in her career, she is always a winger. She is focused more on the assist than scoring the goal.
In episode 301, Amy shares her early career transition from publishing to marketing for Cisco. We’ll discuss what storytelling is and how it can be used with individuals or large groups of people and how product marketing is about finding connective tissue. Amy also weighs in on online marketing, why she enjoys it, and how she learned to communicate with executives. Listen closely to learn about the impact of having good mentors throughout a career.
Original Recording Date: 09-19-2024
Topics – An Intentional Career Change, People Person and Unapologetic Marketer, Social Aspects of Marketing and Storytelling, Skills and Personas, Product Marketing as Connective Tissue, Candid Headlines and Communicating with Executives, Becoming the Interviewer2:03 – An Intentional Career Change* Amy Lewis is the director of enterprise marketing at GitHub. + She is also known as @CommsNinja. * Amy tells us she majored in English and Political Science in school. After a 10-year career in publishing, she wanted to try a new career and landed in technology. + “Greatly oversimplified, it started with a Commodore 64, and then we wound up here.” – Amy Lewis * Has the background in English and Political Science been an advantage since Amy got into the tech industry (i.e. experience in multiple different types of marketing roles)? + Amy says yes and went to a career counselor at the time she wanted to make a career change out of publishing. + “You have a really interesting skill set. You’re a storyteller, but you understand technology. You see where the world is going…. Cisco needs people like you. Technology needs people like you, people who can tell stories…. Go get a job there.” – Amy Lewis, feedback she received from a career counselor right before she joined Cisco + Amy tells us no one in her family worked in technology, and she had no contacts in technology. But after blind applying, she landed a role at Cisco. + Amy leaned into storytelling and making complex things simpler and understandable for others. + She did not know certain skills would be so applicable in this kind of career change, but she made the pivot at the suggestion of the career counselor. + Thinking back, Amy doesn’t remember how she found the career counselor originally. * What made Amy want to leave publishing as a career? + Amy has been thinking a lot lately about return to office (or RTO as we might call it) because she has been working remotely for many years. She worked in New York at the company headquarters and then would later move away to start a family and work remotely. - Amy cites some advice from her mentor Brian Gracely about career limitations when you do not work in the same location as a company’s headquarters. - While working remotely for the publishing company, Amy saw a number of people get promoted. She felt at the publisher she would not be able to climb or grow any longer and that a new challenge was needed. It seems like she in many ways was out of new things to learn. - During the time Amy worked for the publisher, AWS was still Amazon. + At the remote office where Amy worked for the publisher, she was in charge of the server closet. In addition to this, Amy had digitized a number of properties for the publisher. * Did leveling up mean becoming a manager, increasing salary, becoming a team lead, or just taking on new responsibilities? + Amy tells us it was all of these things. She is a competitive person. + Amy already had children, knew she did not want to have any more, and felt she could take more chances. - Amy needed to be with a stable company that would not fire her while on maternity leave. This is important for any working woman out there, even if left unstated. - Amy knew she could get paid more. She also had a director title but could not manage people because she worked remotely. - “I was ready to try something new, so I kind of restarted everything…. I’m ten years in. I’ve got a lot of contacts, connections, comfort. I had and raised my kids kind of in that environment, and I chucked it all away and…took a temp to perm contractor role at Cisco to get my foot in the door and try something new.” – Amy Lewis
8:39 – People Person and Unapologetic Marketer* How was Amy’s previous experience looked at coming into the temp role at Cisco? + Amy started working as part of a content syndication program, which was focused on storytelling. At the time she hit all the right keywords for the role and was going to outpace most everyone else because of her experience. + After building websites and digital properties at the publishing company, Amy knew the disciplines of content syndication and online marketing well. These areas became her initial focus as part of the role at Cisco. + Amy describes herself then as someone “not afraid of the server closet and familiar with content.” + John highlights that Amy was the exact combination of things her employer was looking for at the time (what we might call a unicorn). + “This is the story of me, but everybody is a unicorn. Everybody’s got a superpower. Everybody’s got something that makes them unique. People say this, and when you forget it, let us all be reminded. Figure out who you are, what you’re good at, what drives you, and best of all, if what drives you is also good for business…and then be unapologetic about it and do it over and over and over again. Because I can either be half as good as somebody else if I’m trying to pretend to be them. Or I can be the very best Amy Lewis in the world.” – Amy Lewis - Amy embraced her unique skill set to excel in all of her previous roles and continued to embrace it when she landed at Cisco. + “I’m a people person. I call myself an unapologetic marketer…. In a traditional publishing company, it was weird to be a marketer there. And in tech, it can feel weird to be a marketer…” – Amy Lewis + In the publishing industry, Amy built the online marketing department and helped with the website. She worked for a small company and had easy access to the business owner. - As a storyteller, Amy finds connection in things that on the surface do not seem connected. - Even before Twitter, Amy would connect with people using online bulletin boards like phpBB. + Amy knows she is uniquely good at watching, listening to people, understanding personas / specific groups of people (i.e. the audience), and turning it into something using her creativity. - Amy continues to focus on what she is good at, what she likes, and how it serves the business – the connective tissue. - Amy mentioned her company once sold page-a-day calendars to the cat buying audience. - “Honestly, a cat lady is as passionate as somebody is about the type of phone they have in their pocket is as passionate about the type of networking gear that they use is as passionate about the software stack they’re engaged with. People are passionate, and it’s about people. I’m a people person.” – Amy Lewis * Was marketing something Amy learned in school or picked up on the job? + Many people who are now in marketing had early interests in cults, serial killers, and other dark things. Amy’s field of study required reading all kinds of books on political movements, etc. (which is really marketing). + Amy mentioned marketers naturally seem to want to know what makes people tick. For her, it’s a combination of technology, how the world works, and natural curiosity. + John cites recent political cycles that are a merging of political movement and online audience building. Even before the internet, building a social movement was a form of marketing. It was about going to meet people, networking with them, connecting around an idea, and building community. - Amy’s example is one of reading about these types of movements and then applying that knowledge in a new area. + Amy’s mother was an English teacher
17:02 – Social Aspects of Marketing and Storytelling* Was Amy interested in conversations with other people from a young age or ensuring she could collaborate with others in her work? What about that social aspect of working in marketing? + Amy started as a Chemistry major but realized she didn’t want to be stuck in a lab. + “I don’t want that. I want to be front of the house. And I don’t know that I wanted to be on a stage per se, but I knew I didn’t want to be in a lab…just doing lab things.” – Amy Lewis, on the decision to not keep pursuing Chemistry + Amy even thought about being a lawyer, especially since she had experience as a debater in high school and college, but that did not seem right. + “The other kind of spoiler alert is I’m an introvert. I may seem extraverted, but I think I shine a lot brighter online…. I can decompress. I can be behind my keyboard. I can go read a book afterward….I think there’s a lot of us like that too.” – Amy Lewis + Amy remembers a study that claimed more marketers were introverts as opposed to extroverts. Marketers like to observe their surroundings and do pattern recognition from there. * We may have jumped to the conclusion that storytelling and people a people person necessitates being a 1-1 type of person. Is storytelling more of a broadcast or one to many type of communication? + Amy thinks people in sales might do better in the 1-1 communication or extraverted world as she calls it. + Marketers need to be able to make you feel like it’s 1-to-1, 1-to-few, and then 1-to-many or 1-to-masses. Amy has operated at each level without realizing it. + “I understand how to take people’s interest and passion and connect them with each other into that passion. And that I can apply to a lot of different things.” – Amy Lewis - Amy has done this with cake mixes and barbecue to bacon and datacenters. + Amy likes to take a lot of 1-to-1 observations and consider how much of it is true for 1-to-many and 1-to-masses. Is it connective tissue on a topic? + Amy says the best thing about working in technology is the constant new set of ideas, connecting people to these ideas, and then connecting them to each other. * Nick says in this way the eyes are on Amy’s content or her ideas and not necessarily on her like she’s on stage. + Amy is a late-in-life football player (i.e. soccer), and one of her kids is the goalkeeper. You might think Amy would naturally gravitate to being a striker, but she enjoys being a winger. + “But the longer I play, the more I enjoy being a winger. And it’s so much less about how many goals I score than my assists. That’s the count that I keep in my head on the field. And I think that speaks a lot to my personality. To your point, I like the stories to shine. And I talk a lot about the invisible hand and how do you connect people to things? I don’t have to stand in front of it all the time, and I have found the longer I’m in career the more I really enjoy leading teams, setting people up for success, and…setting the idea up for success.” – Amy Lewis
22:49 – Skills and Personas* Nick thinks we can see some of our own skills but will also need help seeing some of them, just like when Amy went to see the career counselor. + “I’ve often said, if you want to know what you’re good at or what your reputation is, turn and ask the person next to you. It is unbelievable how quick it will be. They will know. Just say, ‘what’s one word that you think when you think about me?’ Other people know what we’re known for before we do.” – Amy Lewis + Amy has done mentoring throughout her career. She spent 5 years as part of The Geek Whisperers and thinking about careers and has done a lot of mentoring in addition to that. - Amy likes to observe people in a setting and offer feedback on their strengths and qualities. She reminds us that this kind of feedback is a gift, and we often forget to ask for it. - Going back to the soccer analogy, Amy doesn’t know if the goals will always come, but she can always provide someone else a pass. + Does it seem narcissistic to ask someone for this kind of feedback? - “I like to catch people being great at something. Because they often don’t know, or if they do, it sure feels good to have somebody see it.” – Amy Lewis + Amy describes a project she did with the team at Dick’s Sporting Goods. Amy took this role at Dick’s Sporting Goods during a time when she was trying to choose between going back to working for a company she really loved and trying something completely different. - A mentor of Amy’s encouraged her to take the role at Dick’s, and she followed the advice, eventually building out a team. - Amy’s team worked within the Office of the CTO, which previously did not exist. - After observing and working with her team for a while, Amy built a slide deck and gave everyone a superpower and a superhero name. The gift Amy’s team gave her back was dubbing her the analogizer. This fits Amy’s method of storytelling – using analogies to “feel” the story and make it relatable. - John describes one of the best teachers he had in school and that teacher’s ability to restate the lesson he wanted to teach in the language of the hobby or sport based on a person’s interest. John has tried to emulate this style over the course of his career. * Amy has been thinking a great deal about personas lately. + We live in a world where we know social media can feed our confirmation biases. + When marketers do their job well, they do it to serve a persona. + “It’s treating people with respect. It’s hearing them. It’s seeing them. It’s asking the question…all those tactics to either by observation or by direct question to get to know somebody and then to land what you’re trying to say. And then, to meet them halfway.” – Amy Lewis, on the marketer’s role serving personas + We talk about the difference between poor and excellent communicators with excellent communicators coming as far or as close to someone to help close the gap. - When communicating with someone and having a disagreement, consider whether you want to be right or you want to stay married. Either choice is a choice. - Amy highlights the importance of communication to close gaps and truly understand a persona. * John highlights internet marketing as being focused on 1-to-masses and can lead to recency bias. Audience categorization can be difficult. + Amy says this really takes work, and we need to remember what we see in our social media feeds are likely not the same as what others see. + “If we don’t actively seek a difference of opinion, you’ll never figure out how to close the gap. You’ll only know how to close the gap with someone who thinks and looks and sounds just like you. And I think we all have to work at finding many voices and listening and thinking about our own to offset that recency.” – Amy Lewis + Amy mentions the emphasis in schools on citation and original content. The education we got is very different than what children are getting now. + Amy suggests we are raising a generation that is more critical, a group who is aware they are getting recency bias from being inside “the system.” That makes for an interesting group to market to and with. + John shares a story about the perception of typing as a necessary skill and compares it to the necessity presently to be able to use presentation software (PowerPoint, Google Slides) or understand sentiment from groups through social media.
33:15 – Product Marketing as Connective Tissue* Amy likes to understand where groups can align and the connective tissue between them. + “Product marketing in some ways is no more than figuring that out…what your value props are and how they connect…to people’s beliefs and needs. That’s what it is. It’s messaging a positioning and then timing.” – Amy Lewis * John wonders if product marketing is intentionally filled with jargon to foster the feeling of an in crowd who understands the jargon? + Amy says yes and calls it a tool often used. We discuss “othering” and “inning” in relation to this. + This likely becomes clearer when looking at commercial marketing where things like toothpaste say something about a personality. + A product marketer has a bag of tricks. They want to ensure they use product truth and build the messaging in a way that makes people feel they are smarter, ahead of the curve, etc. + “It can be true and work at the same time.” – Amy Lewis, on product marketing * Does product marketing fit within a product team or in its own marketing funnel within an organization? + Amy mentions attending ad speaking at a Product Marketing Alliance conference recently. + Someone did a presentation sharing the various titles you can find in product marketing, and it made Amy think about how product marketing can take so many forms. Here’s how she thinks about it: - Within technology specifically, there is a broad group that is corporate marketing and a broad group that is product marketing. - Product marketing is like a slider bar starting with the product and its specifics and then getting more technical. From there corporate marketing would be more generalized information for the masses such as things that demonstrate thought leadership. - Someone passionate about the product and the details may gravitate more toward technical marketing or technical product marketing over general product marketing. - Many companies organize based on this principle, and it’s important to have both skill sets. On one end you have deep technical details of a product and working with product management and on the other more thought leadership (and a lot in between). - Events marketing, for example, would probably be filed under corporate marketing usually. - Corporate marketing has to be somewhat neutral, whereas product marketing will sit inside a business unit or division. Usually field marketing, communications, event marketing, etc. fit within the broader corporate marketing area. - In companies with a CMO (Chief Marketing Officer), communications usually will be for both internal and external, which includes public relations. - There are probably slight variations on all of the above (i.e. field marketing may be field embedded, etc.). + At the conference Amy met so many people across so many industries, and they all had the same complaints and problems. - For Amy, it was amazing to meet these people and listen to their stories. This helped to combat some of the confirmation biases we discussed earlier.
40:21 – Candid Headlines and Communicating with Executives Our discussion returns back to Amy’s temp to hire role at Cisco. * Amy talks about this as being a moment in her career. Someone helped turn her badge from red to blue (i.e. full-time). + As a contractor, Amy was running a specific program and needed to present at a MBR (monthly business review). This is similar to a QBR (quarterly business review). + At the time, Amy was running a program but wasn’t getting the resources needed despite her attempts. Things were not going well. + “Either we get resourced and we change this, this, and this…or you should just cu the program. This is not a good use of resources.” – Amy Lewis, reporting the status of a program she was running to stakeholders in an honest and direct way + This was Amy’s program and had her name attached to it. She was hired almost on the spot. + Some of the other presenters were not sharing the true story of how their programs were going. Amy calls it a bold move, especially since we often want to protect ourselves. She often tells this story when coaching other people. + Amy knew at the time this program was not good for the business and wanted to ensure her name was synonymous with understanding what was good and what was not good for the business.“That’s what a business review should be – whether it’s working, whether it’s…. It showed that I knew what was true and I was unafraid to say what needed to be said.” – Amy Lewis + Amy likes to emphasize the right kind of metrics and prevent others from focusing on vanity metrics. - “Telling those stories and telling people what to demand out of their metrics is part of my personal brand. People know if I show up with metrics, I’m going to know them. They are going to be true, and I’m going to tell you what it means and not just what’s on the paper.” – Amy Lewis * Nick calls this the other side of the coin. If we’re going to tell someone what they are good at, why not be honest and tell them what they aren’t good at with an assessment of the situation? + Looking back, being honest in that business review and telling the truth when it was very uncomfortable was a form of storytelling. + Amy had the business acumen, was curious, could do the work, and proved she could lead a program. This put her back on the path to product marketing. + John says this is building a personal brand of telling others when someone is not working. + Amy mentions she is a headline person and has made a career on some catchy phrases that stuck. We can speak truth in a way that softens the blow but also in a way that makes it harder for people to ignore. + This is marketing at a feedback mechanism. Would you rather be around people who will tell you there’s a problem while you are in the room or talk about it when you are not in the room? * Amy has mentees that often ask her how to work with executives. + She gained access to executives from being on social media in the early days when the playing field was more level. Consistently showing up on social media allows us to engage with anyone. + Amy has interviewed a number of executives over the course of her career based on the nature of her role (i.e. she had a lot of access to them). + These two things made it very normal for Amy to engage with executives. + The person who hired Amy full-time at Cisco gave her a business book that discussed the concept of executive inoculation. - One simple example of this is when a president doesn’t know the cost of a gallon of milk because they have lost touch with the people. - If a business leader has nothing but “yes” people around them, it can lead to executive inoculation. - “When you become disconnected…from your persona, from your audience, your business…that’s a danger. There are always going to be executives that wish to stay inside that bubble….” – Amy Lewis - The majority of executives Amy has worked with appreciated honesty. We should be thoughtful in our choice of language, stay true, and “bring the receipts” (or the proof) as Amy says. - “You can say hard things if you say them nicely, if you’ve built trust, and if you bring the receipts with you.” – Amy Lewis
48:42 – Becoming the Interviewer* Was the interviewing something Amy had done previously and something she needed to apply to an executive audience, or did she have to learn interviewing on the job? + Amy is thankful for mentors like the person who hired her at Cisco as well as Brian Gracely of TheCloudCast. + “Though the story sounds good now, what I didn’t know could fill an ocean.” – Amy Lewis + Amy worked a few cubes down from Brian, and he was willing to help her learn many things. + Amy came up with the idea of Engineers Unplugged, and it was almost like a gameshow / competition with 2 engineers and a whiteboard. - “Once more I come up with a headline, and I write the story around it…. I had zero percent experience on camera before Brian Gracely challenged me to get started. And then I just took natural curiosity / extreme nosiness and put it to work. I thought if I’ve got the microphone, how can I serve the audience? How can I ask the questions that everybody wants to know?” – Amy Lewis - Through this exercise, Amy had to get comfortable with being on camera. + To this point Amy had not interviewed people but had plenty of practice public speaking. She did debate in high school and college and has given speeches to small audiences and those up to 3000 people. - “In some ways it almost felt like interviewing easier because I’m trying to make them successful…. And I’m always a winger on the soccer field…. I’m there holding the microphone to make them look good and feel comfortable.” – Amy Lewis
Mentioned in the Outro* Being a winger in our careers doesn’t sound so different than being a mentor. Amy talked about seeking mentorship during different times in her career and now mentors others. If you’ve never worked with a mentor and don’t know what to expect or how that relationship should work, go back and listen to these episodes with Dale McKay: + Episode 288 – Guardrails for Growth: A Mentor’s Experience with Dale McKay (1/2) + Episode 289 – Enhance Your Personal Brand: Feedback as a Catalyst for Change with Dale McKay (2/2) + May you be blessed with at least one great mentor in your life! * Amy has recently launched the Unicorns in the Breakroom podcast with Sarah Vela. You can find a discussion with thoughts on return to office mandates in episode 1 of the show. + Unicorns in the Breakroom on Apple Podcasts + Unicorns in the Breakroom on Spotify
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_ * If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.
What can you learn from 300 episodes focused on career progression in technology? This week we’ll remind listeners of our show’s mission and share the origin story of the podcast. Listen closely for the lessons we’ve learned, the patterns we have seen in our discussions and guests, the feedback we want to hear from listeners like you, and some recommended episodes if you want to dive deeper in specific areas.
As part of episode 300 we’re also announcing the recent creation of our layoff resources page that you can find at nerd-journey.com/layoffresources. This is a curated list of our most impactful discussions on layoffs with HR professionals, career coaches, burnout experts, entrepreneurs, and technologists like you. It’s been put together in a specific order to help you process layoff events, get practical tips on moving forward, and learn from the experiences of others.
Original Recording Date: 10-26-2024
Topics – Restating Our Thesis, The Origin Story and Motivations, Lessons Learned, Trends and Patterns, Key Ideas and Books, Progressing as an Individual Contributor, Management as a Career, Looking at the Future1:01 – Restating Our Thesis* Welcome to episode 300! * We wanted to start by restating our thesis for the show, especially for anyone who might be a new listener to the show. + We (John and Nick) are focused on serving the technology professional with the goal of bringing to light information on career progression and expansion that we did not know when we worked in IT Operations. We’re looking to answer questions like: - How do I find a new job if I’ve just been laid off? - How do I get better at my job? - How do I change job functions within the organization I’m in? - How can I change organizations / companies? - How do I gain recognition? - How do I progress in general in my career? - What are the different roles that exist under the technology umbrella that I might be qualified to do? + We’re extracting the patterns from stories of technologists not so different than you. Our guests have either worked in technology or have a unique perspective on the industry or trends within it. Releasing our discussions in multiple parts allows us to go deep into details and extract those patterns of the different ways one could go about accomplishing some of the aforementioned goals. - We also want to educate listeners on how many roles are possible under the technology umbrella as a whole and how you might be qualified for more jobs than you thought. You’ll hear us discuss relatable experience quite a bit on the show.
3:46 – The Origin Story and Motivations* Right before Nick started a new job in late 2017 (that John had referred him for), John suggested the two of them start a podcast. + At first, Nick wasn’t sure what he would say on a podcast, but he said yes. + John says in the beginning neither of them was clear on what the podcast was about yet. - Based on his experience at a distributor and a technology vendor after being in IT Operations, John felt there were paths and roles that people did not know about that could result in greater pay. He thought they should publicize it and talk about different ways to accomplish it. - They also had other ideas like sharing details of the solutions their employer (a technology vendor) was releasing. John remembers recording several episodes on these topics that were never published. Nick recalls some of their first intros using the words “IT news and opinions based on our points of view.” - John and Nick didn’t think they could make an impact by just talking about the technology and promoting it. Many others were doing it. - “I think a lot of the career stuff just bubbled up to the forefront. We found the reason later on. It just got to be more and more clear that that part of it was the only thing that we should really focus on.” – John White - Nick says we have to talk about technology a little bit, but it wasn’t about the nerdy parts of the tech itself. It was more about how working in technology and focusing on it changed someone’s career, how they progressed, etc. * Nick had no idea there were so many different roles one could have when they started the podcast. - It seemed important to not only educate people on different technology focused roles but also talk about the process of applying for those types of jobs. + Nick and John worked together earlier this year to revise the podcast description. It was kind of right, but over time the theme had crystalized even more so than what was previously written in the description. - This is also part of the reason you see “Career Advice for the Technology Professional” in the show’s title now. - While we are not paid to give career advice, we sure do love continuing to learn on this topic! * If you hear ads when you listen to our show, they are NOT from us! We’ve never used ads. * Our costs for the podcast center more on time spent than money. Hosting costs and other subscriptions isn’t a huge expense. It did not seem realistic to monetize in a way that would offset the cost of our time, so we didn’t do it. * What is it we hope to get out of the podcast if it isn’t money? + For John, the payback is more about exposure to guests, hearing their interesting stories, and knowing listeners are finding the models our guests are presenting valuable. One model is coming from a nontraditional background to work in technology. We’ve figured out that there is no “traditional” background. + Nick highlights the fantastic people we’ve met as we’ve heard their stories. For Nick, the podcast helps him in addition to helping other people. - We talk to people before and after we interview them and try to keep up with how they are doing. - Nick says when you edit the show, you get to listen to the advice given in episodes multiple times. - “Selfishly, I like doing it for me…. If it helps me, my hope is that it helps other people too.” – Nick Korte
11:43 – Lessons Learned* Nick has found that you will make time for the things you like and enjoy. In fact, he and John recorded episodes while he was on vacation in Galveston right before the show launched. + Nick recounts editing the podcast on cruise ships, in the passenger seat of a car while on a road trip, in hotel rooms, and of course, at home…all out of an unwillingness to miss a release. + John had some major life events happen at different points like buying his first home and having a child which required him to step away from the show. The first time this happened, Nick had to learn how to edit. + Nick’s wife and daughter know how much he loves doing the podcast and support him in it. They know that weekends are for podcasting and editing. He is only able to do this because of their support. + If you plan to do something like this (start and maintain a podcast), make sure you have the support to do it. + A podcast takes time, and when you begin you will not be fast at any of it. Nick feels like he and John have improved in the questions they ask, their prep, and hope the quality of the show has improved over time. + Hopefully the findability of the show has improved over time with iterative improvements on the show’s description and metadata. Nick wishes they had done this better as the theme became more crystalized. - John thinks maybe we would have been better at this part if either of us had marketing backgrounds. + With the experiences being part of technical communities in the past and being in pre-sales for a while, Nick is not shy about asking people to be on the show if they have a great story. Neither is John. - It has not been hard to get people to say yes once we do the prep work and share what we’re trying to do. - “You don’t know when and where, but somebody’s going to be helped by hearing your story. I think people want to be able to help, so it’s finding people that have that compelling lesson that’s embedded in their story.” – John White
16:02 – Trends and Patterns* Some things we have seen have changed over time, while some have been timeless. * The strength of the job market has varied over time. + Right now, in late 2024, the job market is difficult, and we are seeing many layoffs in the tech industry. There are many reasons behind this – consolidation, interest rates, etc. There are still jobs open, but it’s a challenge when thousands of people have lost their jobs so close together because it might mean high competition amongst a large candidate pool. + In 2021, it was a very hot job market with tons of hiring, making finding candidates difficult. + As time goes by, the place we are in the job cycle changes quite a bit. John says it’s been interesting to hear our discussions during both a hot job market and a difficult job market. + If you are worried about layoffs or have been impacted, Nick mentions the recent creation of a layoff resources page you can visit at nerd-journey.com/layoffresources. You will see the title of “What Can I Do in Response to a Layoff Event?” This is a curated list of some of our most impactful conversations on the show about layoffs given to you in a specific order to help process the event and understand what you can control. - You’ll hear from business psychologists, burnout experts, career coaches, entrepreneurs, and technologists. * John mentions some discussions we’ve done on the best practices in searching for a job. One example is accepting interviews even when you’re not actively seeking a new role to gain practice. Specifically, this is practice when the stakes are very low. + Taking an interview may help you learn about a really interesting opportunity. + John encourages listeners to know why they are staying at a particular employer. Staying at your current employer has to be better than making a move for you to stay. + We’ve talked about considering the type of company to work for and the role you would like to have, keeping them in generalities instead of specifics. - Consider the type of work you would like to be doing, the environment in which you would want to work, the types of co-workers you would want, how all of this might make you feel, etc. - The above goes back to concepts we discussed in Episode 19 – Process over Outcomes and Dreaming in Bands * We have also done past episodes on resume construction. While we do not council people on resume writing for a living, we have written several of our own. Here are some recommended episodes from our foundations series that might help you (each contains links in the show notes to other helpful resources): + Episode 203 – Revisiting the Foundations of Resumes + Episode 204 – Revisiting the Foundations of the Job Search + Episode 205 – Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 1 + Episode 206 – Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 2 * We’ve discussed interviews and explained the goal of an interview, which John mentions is not always obvious. + When John worked for Google he conducted many interviews even though he was an individual contributor. Much of it was to evoke how people think and solve problems. + We have also done episodes covering the different types of interviews like those with a recruiter or hiring manager, a technical screen, a vibe interview with a leader, etc. + There are also many great interview stories people have shared throughout the years. In the interview, we want to be able to tell our career narrative. This is something Jason Belk shared with us in Episode 284 – Draft Your Narrative: Writing and Building a Technical Portfolio with Jason Belk (2/2). One of the days we build a narrative is documenting our work and showing our work so we can speak about it with others. - Telling your narrative is not something a person can do if they haven’t thought about it! - How did your experiences change the way you think and solve problems? - “You need to think about it ahead of time and then construct it and then practice telling that story. And then revisit that because you’ll change. And then your perspective on the past will change also.” – John White, on career narratives
24:09 – Key Ideas and Books* We’ve compiled a list of ideas listeners need to consider / think about as they start to focus on career progression (i.e. getting better at your current job, becoming a higher performer, etc.). + Proof of Work - This goes along with the book Show Your Work by Austin Kleon. This is a short and very digestible read containing stories about the power of documenting your learning, being a beginner, sharing your experience, and how it can help your career. - One practical implementation of this is blogging about learning a specific topic. - Kleon’s book makes a compelling case for learning in public, which means documenting the learning in some way so you can tell that career narrative we spoke about earlier. + Turn Information into Knowledge - This came to us via a book recommendation from previous guest Josh Duffney. Josh spoke about what he had learned after reading How to Take Smart Notes by Sonke Ahrens, which is often called Zettelkasten (a knowledge management system). - Be sure to check out our full discussion with Josh in Episode 156 – Better Notes, Better You with Josh Duffney (1/2) where you will find links to a book Josh wrote called How to Take Smart Notes in Obsidian. - John says this methodology has revolutionized how he works. It’s part of showing your work but also a way to keep track of things you know. We can take notes on what we are learning and then formalize our thoughts into our own words, putting them into a system that allows you to create connections between concepts you have learned. It becomes knowledge once it is in a system that allows retrieving it, taking action on it, and then publishing it. - Nick feels he could improve in note taking to make it more like the smart notes methodology. - John mentions this is less about full adoption and more about being exposed to the idea and trying to implement it in some way. There is no perfect way to do it! + Improve Your Ability to Do Complicated Knowledge Work - This point is based on Deep Work by Cal Newport. We recorded a 7-part discussion series on this book starting with Episode 141 – Book Discussion: Deep Work, Part 1 – The Why and ending with Episode 147 – Book Discussion: Deep Work, Part 7 – Become Hard to Reach. Episode 147 contains links in the show notes to all discussions in the series. - John feels the series of episodes we did stand out as an example of how to take smart notes as applied to the deep work concept. Even just listening to our first episode in the series will give you an idea of what the book is about and an overview of the concept of deep work. - This book is an example of why it’s important to be able to do complicated knowledge work and the things you need to do to be good at it. There are other books Cal Newport has written that Nick and John have also read. Cal Newport also has a podcast that is quite good. + Incremental Improvements - One of the first books we came across here was Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard by Chip and Dan Heath. Another book many people have recommended in this space is Atomic Habits by James Clear. - The idea is making small improvements and building upon those improvements, which includes shaping your environment so you can do it well. - These overlap a little with the concepts Cal Newport spoke about in Deep Work. + Making Big Bets on Technology Waves - While there is no specific book here, it is a corollary to the above ideas. We’ve seen this pattern happen with a number of guests. - When Nick thinks of guests who have talked about technology waves he thinks of several episodes – Episode 80 – Certification and Mentoring with Manny Sidhu,Episode 188 – The Surfer of Technology Waves with Joe Houghes (2/3), and Episode 184 – Dive Deeper and Enjoy the Process with Michael Levan (2/2). Also check out Episode 264 – Back to Basics: Technology Bets and Industry Relationships with Brad Christian (2/2) to get Brad Christian’s take on making technology bets. - Manny Sidhu was the first one to bring up this idea. He came across virtualization in the early days and decided to go all in. The foresight to do that early on can be powerful in your career, but there may be ways to do it which are not as large of a risk. - If someone made a bet on blockchain a few years ago, it hasn’t played out just yet. Think about containerization and generative AI and how they will continue to change over time. Will you place a bet and position yourself within one of these trends? - Should we talk to more people about how to evaluate technology waves and the smart way to make a bet on a wave? - People often want to know where to place their focus to gain new skills and be valuable in the market. It’s a difficult problem to solve. - Making a completely safe bet on a technology wave might mean you are late to place your bet.
34:40 – Progressing as an Individual Contributor* Another trend we’ve seen is progressing to a high level individual contributor, which we might refer to as becoming a principal engineer. The principal level is one of the highest job levels for individual contributors with things like distinguished one step higher. We’ve spoken to guests about what it takes to achieve the principal title and what it means to have the title in our industry. + A typical progression for an individual contributor might be systems engineer to senior systems engineer to staff systems engineer to senior staff systems engineer to principal systems engineer, etc. But this progression may look different inside the organization where you work! + This is a leadership track but not a management track. High level individual contributors like principal engineers often work on problems with a broad scope within an organization and sometimes outside the organization. It’s about technical depth and breadth but also developing other people too. + John highlights the principal as someone who can bring their knowledge to a project and then hand it off to someone. + The discussions about the principal title are some of Nick’s favorite. Recommended episodes for learning more about the principal engineer would be: - Episode 286 – Succession Planning: Delegation Skills and Technical Ownership with Max Kanat-Alexander (2/3) - Episode 287 – Scope Creep: Evaluating Impact in Career Decisions as a Principal Engineer with Max Kanat-Alexander (3/3) - Episode 242 – Modalities of the Staff and Principal Engineer with Ken Collins (2/2) - Episode 167 – Pause and Step Outside with Andrew Miller (3/3) - Episode 152 – The Theme of Your Career with Scott Lowe (1/2) - Episode 153 – Creating a Full Stack Career with Scott Lowe (2/2) - Episode 170 – Signal What You Want with Joe Chenevey (1/2) - Episode 171 – Coaches as Mindset Curators with Joe Chenevey (2/2) - Episode 185 – Make Accommodations for Success with Phil Monk (1/2) - Episode 186 – The Unassuming Architect with Phil Monk (2/2)
37:45 – Management as a Career* This has been a trend we’ve seen. If you want to be a manager, what do you need to prepare yourself for, and what is the job of a manager? + We’ve had discussions about the differences between managers and the technical lead of a team. + There’s also the concept of the player coach where someone might be partially a people manager and still have individual contributor responsibilities. + John has made the transition to people manager from individual contributor. He shares that there is a 30% or so crossover of skills. - “Being a manager just is a whole new set of…very technical skills that don’t have anything to do with being that individual contributor.” – John White - John says there are companies who have developed philosophies that management can be a skill applied to any team, even if the skills of the team are different than your skills when you were an individual contributor. + We have also seen people move from manager back to individual contributor. It’s not necessarily a step down and might be right for you based on specific timing in your life. John says it’s just a different job. + If you’re listening to this and are thinking about becoming a people manager, check out these episodes: - Episode 244 – An Array of Decision Points with Tim Crawford (2/2) - Episode 252 – Management is War with Russell Swinney (1/2) - Episode 253 – Building Trust as an Interim Leader with Russell Swinney (2/2) - Episode 238 – Managers as Culture Keepers with Leanne Elliott (2/2) - Episode 278 – Uncovering Empathy: The Greatest Skill of an Inclusive Leader with Marni Coffey (1/3) - Episode 279 – Change Management: The Hardest Leap and Developing People with Marni Coffey (2/3) - Episode 280 – Life after Layoff: A Leader’s Sense of Duty and A Series of Good Conversations with Marni Coffey (3/3) + For more on the player coach role, check out Episode 231 – It Comes Back Tenfold with Chris Williams (3/3).
41:52 – Looking at the Future* We would like your feedback on this we should be doing more of and less of. Please send any comments to nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com. * Who should we be interviewing? + More practitioners / people who don’t work for tech vendors, resellers, or distributors? + Are there roles we haven’t covered that we should be like venture capitalist, procurement personnel, or platform engineer? + Do you have a recommendation for someone who should be on the show? We will take that and run with it. + Do we need to interview people in new, interesting verticals? + Are there specific types of companies you want to hear about? * If you’ve heard one episode that has been valuable to you at any point, please take the time to rate the show 5 stars. + What did you find helpful about a show you listened to? Please share that and tag us on social media.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Recent episodes and tech industry layoff trends made us wonder – is there a connection between layoff events and burnout? And if there is, are there differences in how burnout shows up in people impacted by layoffs, in those who remain, and in leaders?
In episode 299 burnout expert, coach, keynote speaker, and podcaster Cait Donovan returns to help us connect the dots. We start by defining burnout and building up from there. You’ll hear thoughts on chronic stress, emotional processing, burnout risk factors, and burnout protection factors. Cait also reminds us that there is a distinct line between managers and employees that has become very blurry in the workplace.
Original Recording Date: 09-28-2024
Topics – Defining Burnout, Connecting Dots between Layoffs and Burnout, Emotional Toil and Processing, Chronic Stress and Capacity Noticers, Taking Stock of Burnout Risks and Protections, Burnout in Leadership, Boundaries and Closing Thoughts2:08 – Defining Burnout* Cait Donovan is a burnout expert, a coach, and a keynote speaker. She is also the host of FRIED: The Burnout Podcast. + Cait was a practicing acupuncturist for 15 years and then burned out. She would later pursue a degree in biobehavioral health to understand what stress does to our bodies. + Cait spends her days podcasting, keynote speaking, and doing corporate training. She’s also working on a second book. Be sure to check out Cait’s first book, [The Bouncebackability Factor: End Burnout, Gain Resilience, and Change the World].(https://www.amazon.com/Bouncebackability-Factor-Burnout-Resilience-Change/dp/1735194905). + If you missed the previous episodes we recorded with Cait, check out: - Episode 214 – Across the Patterns of Burnout with Cait Donovan (1/2) - Episode 215 – The Beautiful Right Turns with Cait Donovan (2/2) * What is the definition of burnout? + Cait likes to start with the World Health Organization (WHO) definition of burnout. Burnout by their definition is an occupational hazard / phenomenon (neither a mental nor a physical health diagnosis). According to WHO, there are 3 components to burnout that must all be present: - Physical and emotional exhaustion - Cynicism and detachment - Feeling a lack of productivity or lack of impact related to your work - The above is a little generic and only deals with the workplace. Cait has found chronic stress is more pervasive than just the workplace and has much to do with how we were taught to interact with the world, which may impact many areas of our lives. + Cait’s definition of burnout is “chronic stress that has led to a decline in functioning of your body, mind, soul, spirit…over an extended period of time so slow that you didn’t notice it happening until it was like, ‘where did I get here? What am I doing? What is this life, and why am I so miserable?”
5:00 – Connecting Dots between Layoffs and Burnout* Many people are looking at the tech industry right now, see the layoffs happening, and they get worried / anxious / scared. After recording other layoff focused episodes with Kat Troyer and Liz Bronson from RealJobTalk, we thought it would be interesting to explore this topic with Cait through the lens of how this trends up or down with burnout. + Be sure to check out Episode 290 – Reduction in Force: Navigating Layoff Trends in Tech with Real Job Talk (1/2) and Episode 291 – Layoffs and Job Market Impacts: Experience with RIFs Preferred with Real Job Talk (2/2). * Think about the person seeing the layoffs from afar (reading about it, knowing people who have been impacted). Can anxiety from seeing this kind of thing be enough to start you down the burnout path? + Cait says not on its own, and she highlights Burnout Risk Factors (BRFs) and Burnout Protection Factors (BPFs). + Many of the burnout risk factors (BRFs) have nothing to do with a person’s current situation. They can be genetic or epigenetic, from culture, from propaganda, or other things happening to us for large portions of life. - We often have very little control over how we might interact with these things unless we have been intentional in our awareness of such risk factors. - Genetics represent a more stable risk because they aren’t going to change. Epigenetics is a different story. + If someone has a large number of risk factors (BRFs) and a small number of protective factors, a layoff could throw them over the edge. Because burnout is the result of a long period of chronic stress, a layoff event may not be chronic enough at the moment to be a cause of burnout (perhaps a low contributor). * Consider people who have been impacted by a layoff. Since Cait does a lot of coaching, what does she see happen in this situation? Do people often find a layoff is a realization of being burned out and feel relieved, or can it be the event that triggers burnout in someone? + Cait says both of the above are possibilities based on perception and a number of other factors. + "…If people already know that they’re burnt out, a layoff is like the best thing that ever happened to you. You’re…so grateful because you were never going to make that choice by yourself…. There are so many reasons we stay in jobs that no longer suit us. But if you are in a job that no longer suits you and you get laid off and you don’t have to be the one to end the relationship, it’s a relief…. Probably for the first time since a free summer when you were like 12 you’ve got 2, 3, maybe even 6 months of paid time off…. So for some people this is a really big relief. " – Cait Donovan - In a layoff situation there is normally some kind of compensation or severance package associated with it. + Some people might not be aware of being on the edge of burnout. If the layoff happens at the same time as several other stressful events (a family member gets a discouraging health diagnosis, etc.), it can eliminate any sense of stability even with the money one would get in a severance package. - “This eliminates a sense of stability that they don’t have enough of right now anyway and can really cause people to stumble.” – Cait Donovan + Cait says we need to remember people are holistic systems as we talk through this. * Nick thinks if we add in a tough job market, maybe the scales tilt toward burnout being a result of the sudden layoff event. + Cait has a number of clients who work in technology, and several of them have lost their jobs. + Statistics seem clear that long term artificial intelligence will create more jobs than it replaces. If we know this is coming and are given time (because of a layoff), we should consider using that time to make ourselves more attractive to the needs of employers. + While there are no guarantees, Cait has seen people approach this in a couple of ways: - Learn what is coming next so make yourself more marketable moving forward. - Some people lose interest in working in the field entirely. Cait gives the example of one client seeking to become an artist. Perhaps there are other ways to use your skills and your hobbies and continue learning. - “So, if you are not already in this crazy situation where the layoff makes you sort of break down, there’s actually a huge amount of possibility for tech workers moving forward…. Tech work over…especially the last 5ish years has been so intense…. It had to pop at some point. So here we are. It’s popping. We knew this was going to happen. It’s now here. And the question is what do you want to do moving forward? …I do believe that there’s a huge amount of opportunity in this world. It’s just different than what it has been.” – Cait Donovan - Cait also says if you need to take the time you are given to sit on the couch and rest, take the time. It’s ok. There’s no mandate that says you have to decide what to do right away.
13:14 – Emotional Toil and Processing* Nick thinks there’s a step before the above to process the emotional toil of a layoff event. How is Cait helping her clients with this? + Cait says some people are relieved. Actually, most people are relieved. + If someone had this happen and was not relieved, Cait would help them focus on what is under their control. - Start with writing a new resume / cv based on what you know. Consider using ChatGPT to help you write a version for a non-technical world / role because it can open your eyes to possibilities you do not immediately see. - Take a look at your money and where it’s going to determine if it is serving the life you want. Pull back from spending in areas that are not serving the life you want to remove added pressures. This is a great time to figure out what your actual needs are. - Looking at the money you need to live the life you truly desire ends up being less than people think according to Cait. - Do the math, and set yourself up on some kind of budget. Cait has used YNAB (You Need a Budget) for her business and finds it really helpful. The tool suggests, for example, that you set aside money monthly to be able to pay for yearly expenses when they arise. - “A lot of times that’s a fear and a safety area that we can add some sense of safety in by giving people a little more control. Let’s just look at it.” – Cait Donovan, on taking inventory of your money and where you spend it - “You’re emotionally processing while you’re doing this because…when you do a cv you’re starting to see…what are the possibilities? What things are available to me? Instead of thinking, there’s nothing left. I’m never going to be able to do anything…. We’re processing that by flipping the script. We’re processing your sense of safety by letting you know where it is or where it isn’t and what needs to really happen….” – Cait Donovan, on processing the layoff - Cait shares the story of having two clients who were spouses do the money map exercise after being really concerned about job loss. Both of them lost their jobs, and both of them were fine as a result of doing the exercise (bills were covered). - Starting with practical things can be what shifts our emotional state rather than working through an emotion while the stressor is still there. Cait’s suggestion here is to shift the stressor to work through the emotion. - Looking through finances is a great exercise for anyone listening. Do it regularly. Cait suggests doing it quarterly. You don’t need a full day if you’re using budgeting software. It takes a glance at where things are. Looking at how much we’re spending across all areas can help us see, for example, that we have too many subscription services and some could be eliminated. - Cait loves to read and pays for Kindle Unlimited. While she could use a library system like Libby, she loves the convenience of Kindle. It would be one of the first things to go if she needed to trim down subscription spend.
19:32 – Chronic Stress and Capacity Noticers* Perhaps there is a similar impact when we take a baseline of stressors. If we don’t have a baseline, we might not know. + In both group and individual coaching, Cait works with clients on something she calls capacity noticers. - “They are really different from person to person…really different. But most people have no idea what their mental, emotional, or energetic capacity is…. So we have to figure out, financially and not – what is my capacity? And where am I overriding it regularly?” – Cait Donovan, on capacity noticers - It takes time for people to uncover capacity noticers. + Cait gives the example of working on a computer and needing to put in eye drops at 11:30 and 3:30. - People might think it is just their eyes because they forgot to think of themselves as a holistic system. - The above is your body’s cue to rest your eyes a little and take a break. It means your capacity has been crossed. * Chronic stress impacts you slowly over time, and we make adjustments for it. + Cait describes a problem that could start with a sore hamstring. + Suppose someone then leans to their other side for a few days to take the pressure off the hurt hamstring. Maybe this leads to right hip pain and back soreness followed by neck pain and migraines over a span of a couple of months. - The root cause was not addressing the overworked hamstring, but it might seem to the person like a migraine, for example, came out of nowhere. + Cait does not expect people to recognize the small shifts over time, especially for people who burn out. - Our bodies are designed to make modifications / work around the small agitations like the pain described above. - Cait mentions something called interoception, which is our body’s ability to feel a need a respond to it appropriately. These needs can be conscious and subconscious (eating when we are hungry, using the restroom when we need to, etc. would be the more conscious forms). When emotions show up the body also responds to them. - “In those that experience chronic stress…we tend to have lower interoceptive skill and awareness than other people. So not only does your body modify naturally. But if you are someone who, for whatever reason,…it’s been taught out of you to listen to your body (i.e. your brain didn’t develop in a way that allows you to listen), then you won’t hear any of those things until you’re being knocked over.” – Cait Donovan, on interoception and chronic stress - Cait says people who are burnt out should cut themselves some slack because it isn’t their fault that they did not notice.
24:34 – Taking Stock of Burnout Risks and Protections* For those who may be in an environment where layoffs have happened, what can they be paying attention to from a stressor standpoint in order to do something about it faster? + “So here’s another thing that we need to talk about. If you are in a situation that for some reason is toxic or sort of impossible to ignore, you can’t meditate your way out of it…. You can meditate all day and all night, but if you are swimming in chemicals they are going to affect your body. If you are in a toxic situation in a workplace where everyone is feeling fear, that is going to enter your body too. So the question here for me is how mindful can you be of what emotions you are bringing with you to the communal work soup? Are you adding to the flavor of the broth, or are you making it impossible to eat? …You can’t totally protect yourself if there’s a pervasive fear in the office. So what you have to know is whether or not there’s a pervasive fear in the office. And if there is a pervasive fear and it’s not going away and leadership is not stepping up to increase trust and to increase psychological safety and to calm this fear…you have got to get moving. You can’t stay in a situation like that…. Sometimes the only answer is to get out…. People don’t want to hear that. People want to hear that they can do enough to take care of themselves to manage the situation. But you are not the situation. The situation is bigger than you. And you can’t manage everybody else’s emotions. And you can’t manage the level of safety. And you can’t manage what your work is going to require and what the stakeholders want. You can’t manage any of that. You have no control over it.” – Cait Donovan - Cait says we can measure heart waves up to 8-10 feet outside the body. - Cait mentioned her husband was near Chernobyl when it happened and had to take iodine for a while as a result. - We can exercise and sleep well and do other things to become more resilient. But that resiliency will only last so long based on the environment you’re in. * Nick thinks this is hard for people to hear, especially when they see a tough job market. + “You have to know that the choice that you’re making is to accept that your body is in a state of chronic stress, which means you need to build up as many burnout protection factors as you possibly can…. You are going to bed and waking up at the same time every day. You are spending time outside during dusk or dawn so that your hormonal cascade is working properly. You are focused on getting the right amount of water and electrolytes and all of those things into your body. You are eating well. You are managing your emotional health…. If you are going to stay in that situation you have got to do ALL of the things to last as long as you can…. If that’s your only option, you have got to up everything else.” – Cait Donovan - People need different levels of burnout protection factors to begin with. - Cait is going to get sunburned without sunscreen. It’s not a judgement but how she is built. Burnout protection factors are called BPFs for a reason because some of us need more of them than others. - If you need a higher level of protection factors already, it’s going to be harder to increase the level of protection by very much. And people also have to reduce risk factors. - There are many possible burnout protection factors and burnout risk factors, and it might be challenging to identify all of them without outside help. You need to understand what your needs are for standard, average health to see if you have room to add protection factors. And you also would need to remove / reduce the risk factors. + If the biggest risk factor is being in a specific environment, then you would land on getting out. But it might not be the biggest burnout risk factor. - Cait gives an example scenario of a stress inducing home situation which might need to be addressed so you can stay at your job. - This goes back to addressing the holistic life of a person and thinking of them as a system. We need to take a 360-degree look. + "We need to up our burnout protection factors and reduce our burnout risk factors as much as we can if we’re going to stay some place. In order to do that, you’ve got to be aware of what they are. So you have to do inventory. What really fuels me? What really drains me? Those are the basic questions… Draw a line down the middle of a paper. Start making a list…. It’s a phenomenal place to start, and most people, again, just like with finances, never stop to take stock of this. " – Cait Donovan
32:25 – Burnout in Leadership* Is it more difficult for people managers / people leaders to keep burnout protection factors higher than the stressors and risks because of the nature of their position? + Cait says yes and that leaders are having a hard time right now. + “Mid-managers have long been known to have the highest stress levels in most companies…every time. Because they are getting slammed from both sides. Their leadership is slamming them, and the employees are slamming them. Everything is their fault. It’s either them or HR…. There’s no getting around that. One of those two groups of people is at fault for everything in an office, which of course is not true. But this is how it’s often displayed.” – Cait Donovan + Cait feels mid-level managers should have outside support at almost all times in their role. This support could be therapy, coaching, mentorship, or something else. - “I honestly don’t believe that you can make it in that position well, be successful at it, and support people the way that you really want to if you don’t have support yourself…. Get somebody. Get something…. Do anything to have a space that is supportive for you. You absolutely need it.” – Cait Donovan, advice for mid-level managers + Nick suggests managers could certainly use support if they have to be the ones to execute a layoff event, especially if they were not prepared to do it. - Cait says this is part of the job and that the leader should prepare for it as best they can. + Going back to a broader view of leadership in general… - Over the last 20 years, leadership has drastically changed, but leaders haven’t changed so much over that period. Some leaders at the top do not mesh well with our current world, and they are getting criticized for it. - Some of our current business leaders learned specific management and leadership styles in school that might have been hierarchical and authoritative (methods considered successful at the time). - “The demand right now is for leaders to show up more authentically, to have more vulnerability, to show more empathy. I think…we are in the midst of this major shift for leaders, and I think it’s been incredibly hard for them…. If you want to stay in a leadership position, then you need to learn how to shift out of this hierarchical system…. For a lot of corporate America, this is not working anymore.” – Cait Donovan * Is the mismatch in the needs of employees from their leaders the largest contributor to burnout culture? + Cait says it is a big contributor and says one of the top 6 contributors to burnout in the workplace is a values mismatch, which can happen on 3 different levels: - A mismatch between a company’s spoken or written values and their values in action is one level. Are they (the company) espousing the values they claim to? When this is off, there is a lack of trust within the company. A lack of trust leads to a lack of safety which leads to stress. - The next is a mismatch between a manager / leader and an employee. Having differing values than your immediate boss makes it really hard to feel productive and impactful at your job. Feeling lack of impact and productivity at your job are major burnout factors. - There can also be a values mismatch between a person and the company where they work. If you feel the things your company is doing are in opposition to / against how you believe the world should function, that will be a massive burnout factor for you. The other two factors will be factors for the culture of the job, and this one specifically will be an individual burnout factor. * Can the mid-level manager, with support, prevent their team from burning out if there is a mismatch from mid-level management upward? + Cait says no. + Cait gives a frequent keynote called “Dismantling Burnout: How Leaders and Teams Can Work Together to Overcome Burnout.” - This keynote speaks to the lines of responsibility for both leadership and employees. For example, what is leadership responsible for, and what are they not responsible for? - “While it’s important for leadership now to have more vulnerability and empathy and the soft skills are becoming more and more and more important…it’s not your leader’s job to be your therapist. It’s not your leader’s job to understand every single thing that’s going on in your life. It’s not your leader’s job to be the person you cry on their shoulder. It’s not your leader’s job to be your best friend in the workplace. That’s not your leader’s job. Your leader’s job is to create a sense of psychological safety for you as best as they can, and then the rest of the stuff that you bring with you to the workplace is up to you…. A leader can only do so much about your stuff. That’s not a leader’s job. A leader’s job is the workplace not the worker.” – Cait Donovan - Cait highlights a podcast episode called The Workplace is a Trauma Recycling Center. Each day we go into work and bring things from the rest of our lives with us. - We get triggered by things or annoyed by things that may not affect other people. We bring the rules we were taught over the course of our lives. All of this is creating conflict. - It’s hard for first time managers out there, especially right now. + Nick references an episode of Cait’s podcast with guest Daisy Auger-Dominguez called Burnt Out Leaders Lead Burnt Out Teams. - Cait says it isn’t that leaders should not care about their people. We should understand that leaders are not there to act as therapists. - Our leaders can absolutely show us empathy and make accommodations for us. - “I have seen the power of leadership when you know that a leader has your back. But what a leader can’t do is go in and solve your problems. They can give you space. They can give understanding. They can create accommodations (as much as they can within the system they work in)…but then you’ve still got to work out your stuff. If you’re granted the time and the space, then your job is to work out the stuff. It’s not their job.” – Cait Donovan - Right now, the expectations of workers are changing and demanding much more empathy and emotional intelligence from leaders. Cait feels there will be a time when the pendulum swings back closer toward the middle. - Often times people who do their jobs well are promoted to leadership, but doing your job well doesn’t mean you can be an effective leader. - Managers and leaders definitely need more training. They need more emotional intelligence just like the rest of us. Cait feels being a leader right now is harder because some of the lines have blurred / are blurrier. - “We need to figure out where the lines are, and I think leaders don’t know that right now. I think employees don’t know that right now, and I think everybody wants everybody else to be doing more.” – Cait Donovan
42:29 – Boundaries and Closing Thoughts* How can we set boundaries in a world where we are being asked to do more? + “You can’t make boundaries for things that you don’t have control over. If you decide you’re not going to do something, then you’re also deciding that you’ll deal with the consequences of not doing something. That’s the boundary. You don’t get to decide what the outcome is.” – Cait Donovan + Cait mentions internal boundaries are me against me boundaries. An example would be not doing a certain thing or crossing a certain line. + “If you’re setting an external boundary, then you can make whatever request you like, which is not the boundary. Please don’t call me after 6 PM is not a boundary. That’s a request. The boundary is what you will do in response to people breaking or respecting your boundary.” – Cait Donovan + External boundaries are things we told someone in advance would happen in a specific scenario. + If we tell someone we will not answer the phone after 6 PM and then don’t answer when that person calls after 6 PM, that is an external boundary. + “You have to understand that once you create those lines in the sand, they sometimes have consequences.” – Cait Donovan * If you want to hear more from Cait and what she is doing to end burnout culture, check out FRIED: The Burnout Podcast. + “I think that it’s wise to remember how much power and autonomy you do have in your life. When you are under chronic stress, we tend to end up under this illusion that we don’t have any control and that we don’t have enough autonomy. And if you’re feeling that way right now, I would challenge you to challenge that. Take some time to figure out what you can influence, where you can influence it, and then start making the shifts that you need to make to increase your own feelings of safety, to increase your own feelings of security so that no matter what happens you’re in a better space.” – Cait Donovan
Mentioned in the Outro* Cait mentioned mapping out your money as well as writing a new resume as things you can control and a way to process emotions from a difficult situation like a layoff.
+ If you’re looking to uncover more things you can control but may have overlooked, check out Episode 90 – Book Discussion: The Inner Game of Stress by Gallwey, Hanzelik, and Horton.
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Helpful links based on this discussion from Cait:
- Burnout Protection Factors or BPFs
- Burnout Protection Factors are Smaller Than You Think
- Burnout Risk Factors or BRFs
- Download Cait’s Core Values Worksheet
- For the leaders listening who want to improve empathy, check out Episode 278 – Uncovering Empathy: The Greatest Skill of an Inclusive Leader with Marni Coffey (1/3).
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Recommending listening for stories of burnout:
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Episode 127 – Countdown to Burnout with Tom Hollingsworth (3/3)
- Episode 132 – Riding the Burnout Wave with Jonathan F
- Episode 166 – Management and the Hypergrowth Startup with Andrew Miller (2/3)
- Episode 167 – Pause and Step Outside with Andrew Miller (3/3)
- Episode 181 – Crossing the Burnout Fault Line with Bill Kindle (2/3)
- Episode 47 – You, Your Health, and the Datacenter with Keiran Shelden
- Episode 58 – The Path to Management and Hard Resume Lessons with Kelly Schroeder
- Other episodes can be found on Nick’s blog Burned Out for the Holidays.
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If you need support because you’ve been impacted by a layoff situation, we recommend listening to the following episodes:
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Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2)
- Episode 280 – Life after Layoff: A Leader’s Sense of Duty and A Series of Good Conversations with Marni Coffey (3/3)
- Episode 290 – Reduction in Force: Navigating Layoff Trends in Tech with Real Job Talk (1/2)
- Episode 291 – Layoffs and Job Market Impacts: Experience with RIFs Preferred with Real Job Talk (2/2)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
How many questions should you ask before offering your opinion? If you’re working as a consultant in tech, Erik Gross would advise not offering your opinion until you have the full context of the problem to be solved and the organization you’re trying to help. Erik’s recommendations for being successful as a consultant follow a repeatable pattern. And just as the consultant needs context to be effective, the learner needs context like an understanding of terminology when learning a new technology.
In episode 295, guest Erik Gross shares his latest entrepreneurial endeavor and why he’s considering moving to full-time entrepreneurship. Erik will explain the AI and automation space, share some of the interesting tools in that space and their value in the business world, and make some recommendations for further education.
Original Recording Date: 09-07-2024
Erik Gross is a developer, an architect, and an entrepreneur who has been very active in the tech space over the last 10-15 years. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Erik this time, check out Episode 294.
Topics – Identity Crisis, A Pattern for Learning and The Expert’s Curse, Success as a Consultant, Entrepreneurial Growth and Pressure, Landing in the AI and Automation Space* This is a return visit for Erik to our show. You can find our previous discussions with him in the following episodes: + Episode 267 – A Theme of Learning with Erik Gross (1/3) + Episode 268 – Ownership through Failures: An Entrepreneur’s Take on Difficult Decisions with Erik Gross (2/3) + Episode 269 – Monetize Yourself: Leveraging Your Most Valuable Knowledge with Erik Gross (3/3)
2:49 – Identity Crisis* If someone builds a business around something (creating training content, for example) and that is no longer their main focus as a business owner, do they start to wonder what the job really is now (almost like a small identity crisis)? + Erik says this absolutely happens and shares some examples from his experience with The Tech Academy. - Erik says he wasn’t the one who really knew how grow and run a team, feeling for a while it was a failure of his. Jack was the one who knew how to do these things. But, Erik accepted this was a skill that needed work and started thinking about ways to improve. Even if we achieve success in one or multiple areas, there will be other areas in which we can improve. - Nothing is going to be perfect. Erik shares how proud he is of the curriculum The Tech Academy has to offer, but he also knows it could be even better. Right now Erik is working a project to review all courses one step at a time and capture what needs to be improved (over 1300 hours of content to review). - “How much more could it serve our students? How much better could the product be? It’s already really good. That kind of iterative improvement thing…that gets me excited.” – Erik Gross
5:22 – A Pattern for Learning and The Expert’s Curse* Erik had to build expertise in a new area to get his newest entrepreneurial endeavor started. How can people build expertise in the emerging AI (artificial intelligence)? Or is changing your focus to this area merely chasing something new and shiny? + Erik has developed a workable pattern for learning new things that he’s refined over time. But it first took making mistakes and then making adjustments to his approach. + Erik used to learn things the way we’re about to describe and no longer recommends it. - Erik gives the example of learning React. - He used to approach this by finding a current real-world project to build with React. This would only make him frustrated. + Here’s the pattern of learning Erik recommends for himself, his students, and his coaching clients. - When learning about a new area, Erik identifies the terms in that area he does not know, and before building anything, Erik will define those terms to ensure he understands what they mean. - The term “state” is used frequently when working with React, for example. It was important to clear up the meaning of this term in the context of React due to its overuse in other areas. Do this for all other terms unknown to you. - Find a simple tutorial that ONLY teaches that subject. If we continue the React example, Erik points out most tutorials he found to learn React included other technologies such as JSX, Babel, and TypeScript at a minimum. - “At a minimum, they were teaching all 4 of those subjects in one tutorial, but they rarely clarified that they were teaching you 4 things. I finally found one that taught the simplicity. You know what React is? It’s 2 JavaScript libraries…. So, all this React library is really doing as one of its core functions is that I can use some text to create HTML, and it makes parts of that easier. And I have a reusable chunk of element on my page. Cool.” – Erik Gross, on the shortcoming of tutorials to learn React - Listen to Erik describe what happens and what the learner misses when trying to understand how React works and other tools like JSX are added into the mix. + To re-state this learning process in general: - Find and clear up your understanding of specific unique terms. - Find a simple tutorial focused on only the technology you want to learn about. - Then, try to build something of your own devising, but keep it simple! + Erik says if you can do the above 3 things, you will usually be able to approach a production problem with that specific technology. + Nick likes the foundational, focused approach because it allows you to add more components and other technologies. + “I’ve done this more times that I can count, and it’s the curse of the technology educator. We assume too much prior knowledge on the part of the student…. It’s really hard as an expert to genuinely remember what it was like to be a beginner. It’s really difficult. You have to consciously try to do that. But when you do, you produce curriculum that is accessible to anybody….” – Erik Gross - Listen to Erik describe this happening with some of the curriculum he built for a JavaScript course. - Erik has a passion for the STEM fields and reminds us that too many educators often make this mistake without knowing we’ve made it.
12:25 – Success as a Consultant* Nick references the discussion with Erik from Episode 267 focused on what is happening in the learner’s mind and meeting the person where they are. The technology instructor has to do this, but Erik has also been a consultant. Nick feels the consultant can use their role to educate as well. How are the roles of the educator and the consultant both similar and different from each other? + We spoke to Dale McKay about being a consultant in Episode 288 and Episode 289. Erik would highly encourage listeners to go back and listen to these! + Erik says there is a difference in approach to consulting vs. teaching something as an instructor, but it starts with your audience and what is happening with them. - Erik was a contract technologist for many years, including work as a cloud transformation consultant. He tells us people may resent consultants brought in to help a company. In Erik’s experience, sometimes he was welcomed, and other times was not. - A consultant can run into challenges when dealing with SMEs (subject matter experts). + Erik would sum up the successful pattern for being a consultant as “listen more than you talk.” - “Most engineers…in fact, probably all of us, are hard wired to solve problems. When you’re early in your consultant career, the moment a problem comes out of a client’s mouth you instantly mentally start solving it. And sometimes you even start solving it out loud, which is a big mistake. For me it has everything to do with the fact that you actually don’t have all the context yet. You’re making a fundamental engineering mistake, which we all do from time to time….” – Erik Gross - Context can be things like the ramification of making a specific change to a system, other systems a specific system may be integrated with, etc. - A consultant has expertise and usually knowledge of a business domain, but they don’t know the context of the company they are working with in full when they begin. The job at first is to be quiet and listen. - Most people want to talk about themselves and the problems they have. Erik says the consultant needs to ask enough questions so that once they give advice, it is valuable to the audience you are trying to help (an engineering leader, a subject matter expert, etc.). - The consultant is not stuck in the problem a team of engineers at a company is trying to solve. Hopefully the consultant has gathered information from a number of perspectives within an organization before deciding to give an opinion. - Avoid giving advice and opinions early on in an engagement. You do not know enough yet to fully understand what the problem is. - “If you take that approach as a consultant, there will be a moment where they trust you. And when they trust you, now when you go to teach them something, they will listen. If you do it a moment before that shift, they are going to be resistant to you trying to teach them anything. That’s been my expeirence at least. …A lot of fundamental differences between that training and consulting thing, but make no mistake about it – there is a point as a consultant where you genuinely do have to teach them things. Just don’t make the mistake of doing it before you have their trust that you’re genuinely an authority. The fact that they hired you or your company for a whole bunch of money does not make you an authority at all. That’s got to be earned. And you earn it by asking questions and understanding.” – Erik Gross, on a consultant’s role - As we ask more questions, our questions get better. The continued questions also indicate a genuine interest in what the customer is struggling with. Erik has given opinions in the past before asking enough questions, and it was a mistake. + Do people ever get tired of answering that next question? - Erik says if the person asking is genuinely interested / finds something fascinating, people do not mind answering more questions. - “You can’t fake genuine interest with someone. They’ll know immediately. But you can create your own interest. You’re in control of that…. I’ve never experienced it that people get tired of answering the next question when they know you genuinely want to know or you’re genuinely acknowledging something that you actually really find admirable or cool about what they’re doing or that you’re fascinated by.” – Erik Gross - Erik demonstrates this by asking about an Albert Einstein picture in Nick’s background. - Finding interesting things about other people or the situation they are in is a skill we can develop. - Erik says you can ask some personal or private questions if the person knows you really care. + Nick thinks this is a great approach to take if you’re the newest member of any team. - One of Erik’s favorite places to visit on the internet is Not Always Right. It shows you all the wrong ways to interact with people. Many of us have met someone new to a team or organization who tries to tell us how awesome they are. Erik would encourage us to not be that person and to ask questions of others based on a genuine interest in learning about them and what they do.
21:50 – Entrepreneurial Growth and Pressure* Let’s go back to Erik’s desire to possibly pursue entrepreneurship full time. It’s an interesting take in a job market where we are seeing a lot of layoffs. Is that pattern part of the reasoning behind Erik’s thinking? + Erik says he feels a little insecure when there’s only one source of income. If there is an expense to be paid, he finds it helpful to ensure that exact amount comes from 3 different sources. + Erik gives the example of bringing on a new team member as an entrepreneur / startup founder. - It’s a critical decision to bring on another person, and Erik tells us he makes the decision right before he really needs the person but doesn’t wait until things are super urgent. Waiting too long to hire a new team member can result in a poor onboarding experience and cause other problems. - To hire someone new, Erik needs to secure in advance at least 3 times the amount he will need to pay an employee. - Erik describes meeting a candidate who had valuable skills but who he could not yet hire full-time. This person had valuable skills building custom software in the AI and automation space. Erik was honest about his situation with the candidate, and the candidate expressed her desire for full-time work. Erik shares that he later closed another client engagement that allowed him to hire this specific candidate. - Erik feels it was the pressure he put on himself to close more business based that made things happen. He was pursuing something he wanted (to scale the business and hire the right talent). - “I’ve had a lot of failures in life and a lot of successes, and I’ve learned the successes usually come from throwing myself into a situation where I have to perform…. The fact is…you can always choose to give up. But when I put myself in a situation where I’m like, ‘you have to do this,’ you grow. And you start to demonstrate to yourself…we are capable of so much more than we give ourselves credit for, but sometimes you can’t learn that until you just literally jump in the ring.” – Erik Gross - In our society we might hear messages about pressure being bad or putting us under stress. But we grow when we’re under pressure. Big business targets require us to exert pressure to achieve them. The pressure begins internally, so we have to determine how much of it we can tolerate. - “If you can put a tremendous amount of pressure on yourself and perform, you start to build a culture of people around you that thrive on that. And the kind of people that really don’t like it leave. Now, I am not advocating in that being a jerk. That’s got nothing to do with pressure at all. But yeah, that’s what I’ve found to be real for me at least.” – Erik Gross + How do we increase the pressure on ourselves without crippling our performance? How can we find the right amount? - For Erik, if something is a big jump but doesn’t seem completely silly, he will do it. If the risk is too great to the people around him, Erik won’t pursue something / he will say no. - “It isn’t just about you. For any one of us, especially entrepreneurs…every moment you have during a day when you apply your energy and creativity to something is precious, and no matter what kind of a life situation you have, those moments that you’re putting into that entrepreneurial journey are moments you’re not spending somewhere else. It has to be worth it. And if you take that entrepreneurial journey or whatever activity it is you’re putting all that energy into and put that other unbelievably aspect of your life (your friends, your loved ones) at too much risk, that’s not ok.” – Erik Gross - Erik will do some risk but not too much. When we last spoke, Erik mentioned he knew he was not going to be the executive who could build The Tech Academy. He was the educator and trainer and put the pressure on himself to allow the business to scale, bringing Jack on as co-founder. - We can find out our own tolerances for risk by experimenting in lower stakes situations, for example. - Erik mentions The Power Offer as a way to de-risk decisions. Building something only to watch it fail months later in the market can be risky. - “If you can find a way to corral that risk, then do so. But you can’t let fear hold you back…. Have a positive enough opinion of yourself…to know that you’ll never truly stay down. I think that your confidence and certainty in your own abilities is the most valuable asset you have. I’ve got a lot of really cool assets in terms of technology skill and writing and teaching. Great. They are not the most valuable thing I have. The most valuable thing I have is an unkillable certainty in myself. I didn’t always have it. Went through fire to achieve it. But you have to be willing to jump into the fire sometimes.” – Erik Gross
30:17 – Landing in the AI and Automation Space* How can the technologist add value and knowledge as it relates to AI (artificial intelligence) without shifting all focus there? + What the media does not do a great job of is defining terms. + We should remember that AI is many things – ComputerVision, robotics, etc. There are categories. The popular thing we’re calling AI right now is usually generative AI centered around natural language processing. + Many automation tools that are low code or no code type solutions get lumped into the AI category, but they really aren’t AI. When we refer to the AI and automation space, they are separate things. + If you’re not building expertise using generative AI tools like ChatGPT or Claude, you are doing yourself a disservice. You can at least use these to improve your own personal efficiency. + Erik shares the genesis moment of the business he’s working on now. - In the 2010s, his development work centered around .NET and its MVC framework - Erik got exposed to JavaScript and Node.js. Node is a great training tool that can be used to quickly create an API project for someone to learn how to work with APIs. Erik started to want the same kind of thing for C# (a low effort, easy way to create a nice training environment), but he could not find anything. - Last May he decided to see what ChatGPT could do to solve this problem. This was a really smart decision because what Erik wanted to solve was very precise, unique, had defined context and constraints…all the things needed for a good prompt. - Within 45 seconds, Erik got a perfect answer. - “Generative AI changes everything. It changes everything.” – Erik Gross + More enterprises are increasing their willingness to let power users leverage low code or no code solutions for buidling in-house automations. - “You can deliver value more rapidly in certain contexts, but you need to know how to use these tools first. Thankfully for an engineer the learning curve is really, really small. When we talk about non-engineers, there is a bit more of a hurdle.” – Erik Gross - Even if you work in the enterprise space where these tools might not be allowed or used, you can build expertise using these tools and use it as a career leverage point. This will allow you to identify a need (i.e. automating a business process or processes) that can be served by low code or no code applications that others will not see. - These tools also integrate with generative AI tools and could allow insertion of natural language processing. - Use of these tools can help the engineer and of course also the entrepreneur. * If someone wants to become a software developer, can they start with low code tools and make a shift? + Erik says this depends on what your end goal is. - If you want to be a working technologist (software developer, engineer, architect, quality assurance, etc.) of some kind, likely low code / no code is not your entry point because you need to understand the fundamentals. Fundamentals in this context would be how computers work, web technologies, how software is made, algorithms, etc. - Algorithms might be the most transferrable fundamental to / from low code and no code solutions. - Erik also says someone may do so well at focusing on low code and no code solutions they may not want to become an engineer. + If we look at this through the lens of Most Valuable Knowledge… - Any time we are buidling a product or service, we should think about who it will help. - Being good at something and very interested in it is a great start, but the third piece of the Most Valuable Knowledge Framework is considering where this will intersect with the marketplace demand. - Erik feels like large enterprises haven’t adopted low code / no code solutions very much and sees them leaning more toward customized software development, which has its own specific requirements (scalability, availability, infrastructure, etc.). - For the small business, low code and no code can really make an impact. These shops may not be able to pay for highly customized software solutions. - “We’ll abstract away as much as we can. We’re going to abstract away all that infrastructure stuff. Can I just write a function and drop it into Azure Functions or AWS Lambda? That’s the fun part. Look at this algorithm I built. Boom – it drops in and it works. So, we’re getting more and more towards that, but we’re still absolutely not accessible to a small to medium size business with what we deliver…. Now, with low code / no code tools and leveraging natural language processing (ChatGPT or another generative AI), you can accomplish things for them internally that we couldn’t even 18 months ago.” – Erik Gross - Smaller businesses also don’t generally know how software is made and might not be great at gathering requirements. - Erik gives an example of a client that services crawl spaces. Listen to his description of the challenge of understanding which of this client’s customers is eligible for payment collections on any given day. It takes hours to gather the information from different systems, and the data changes quickly over time. People were using Google Sheets and their internal CRM system to generate the data needed. - Erik talks about a tool called AirTable (basically a highly performant online database) that allows building a 2-way data synchronization between sources and can show the right view of the data needed to understand and forecast payment collections. All of this can be done without needing to write code! The automation tools have been gaining popularity, but we’ve only made it here because of generative AI according to Erik. These kinds of solutions provide small businesses with something valuable which was previously outside their reach. + If you want to learn more about low code / no code tools… - Erik would recommend checking out content by Liam Ottley and joining his Skool Community to network with others. - Erik also loves to help people in this area. You can visit the Mad Wizard Marketing Website if you just want to talk or find content on YouTube. * If you have other questions or want to follow up with Erik on today’s discussion… + E-mail Erik at erikg@madwizardmarketing.com, and feel free to ask him about anything. He is willing to spend 30 minutes talking to almost anyone. + Erik loves the technology field and has found it to be filled with some incredible people.
Mentioned in the Outro* Nick really liked the pattern of learning Erik mentioned and the singular focus. Finding a tutorial that only includes one specific technology is the hard part but may be a way to guard against that expert’s curse. * We can apply the idea of defining terms we don’t know to consulting by making sure we understand what people mean when they use specific terms like “cloud,” for example. It’s a way to prevent making false assumptions and to get the full context. * Knowledge of tools we may not use at work today (i.e. like low code and no code solutions) can help us be ready to solve problems in interesting ways should the need arise. This is why it’s important to stay on top of technological trends. + Nick would also caution listeners to use generative AI tools only within their company’s policy for it and be mindful of data privacy / confidentiality. * There were some undertones of an identity crisis in becoming an entrepreneuer after starting as a technologist, especially when you had off things you used to do. + Erik had to focus on the marketing, sales, and business growth and understood he needed to hire people to do development.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Entrepreneurs have no shortage of ideas. But how do they know if a new business idea is actually a good idea? Our guest this week would advise seeking fast feedback during the ideation process to save time, preserve energy, and remain focused on delivering value to your intended audience.
This week in episode 294 we’re rejoined by Erik Gross to discuss some of the lessons learned from his recent entrepreneurial pursuits. We’ll talk through how the entrepreneur can go from ideation to taking action. This includes generating ideas, capturing ideas, scrutinizing or testing ideas, and deciding to abandon certain ideas. We also discuss how the entrepreneur, business owner, or manager can invest in employees even before they start work by making roles occupiable. And it starts with putting all the pre-requisites in place to write good job descriptions.
Original Recording Date: 09-07-2024
Topics – Entrepreneurs and Ideas, Focus and Subjecting Ideas to Scrutiny, Sources of Feedback, Scaling Business Opportunities with Automation, Entrepreneurial Succession Planning and Attitudes, Investing in People and Making Roles Occupiable, Thoughts on Employee Onboarding, Transferring Duties to Others2:29 – Entrepreneurs and Ideas* Erik Gross is a developer, an architect, and an entrepreneur who has been very active in the tech space over the last 10-15 years. + This is a return visit for Erik to our show. You can find our previous discussions with him in the following episodes: - Episode 267 – A Theme of Learning with Erik Gross (1/3) - Episode 268 – Ownership through Failures: An Entrepreneur’s Take on Difficult Decisions with Erik Gross (2/3) - Episode 269 – Monetize Yourself: Leveraging Your Most Valuable Knowledge with Erik Gross (3/3) * Though we did talk about entrepreneurship a little in episode 268, does the entrepreneur naturally get a bunch of ideas to chase, or is there more science behind it? + Erik knows many entrepreneurs and says in general the entrepreneur has a plethora of new ideas, and this can be both good and bad. + Erik learned the idea itself is less valuable than executing on an idea, but he still gets excited when he gets what seems like a great idea. + “If you’re paying attention, if you’re interested in helping people, if you’re interested in starting and growing things…you’ll have lots of ideas. Is it going to withstand a scrutiny from the marketplace? Will people pay for it? Is it something that has legs? There are a lot of other questions. But yeah, the ideas…most entrepreneurs…they are full of something, but generally ideas are what they are full of.” – Erik Gross * Do most entrepreneurs keep a list of ideas they will go back and reference? + Erik, like many technologists, is a nerd for tools. He uses Obsidian to capture ideas. + When an idea hits, Erik has been known to pull over if driving to capture the idea and get it out of his head. Otherwise the idea might be lost, which is a terrible feeling. + Even if people make lists of ideas, it does not mean they are going to execute on any of them. Periodic review of your ideas is a good practice because something you jotted down a while back may be related to what you are currently doing. + Nick says keeping a list of ideas makes sense whether we are an entrepreneur or just a technologist, a people leader, etc. These ideas can be for things we want to study, blog about, research, etc. Where Nick fails is going back to review past ideas. + Erik does go back and review past ideas he’s captured (could be for product design, offer design, etc.)…usually about once per month. - Often times something will trigger him to go back and look through past ideas. - He may have captured a specific tool which could come in handy later, for example. - “I’m just deeply curious and interested in a lot of things, and especially in the entrepreneurial space, I have a hard time not thinking about it.” – Erik Gross - Erik would tell you he is rarely not working. He might be thinking about how to solve a specific problem or physically doing work.
7:17 – Focus and Subjecting Ideas to Scrutiny* How does the entrepreneur focus their attention in the right area when they have multiple ideas? + “I learned a while ago that when you get that urge to look at a new shiny object…generally, it’s because you think that shiny object is going to fix a problem you’re having executing. But almost always, the plan you put in motion to execute in that area was based on some earlier guidance that at one point you really agreed with. It made sense to you…. Most of the time, its failure to actually get the performance or the results that you wanted is due to your applying it incorrectly.” – Erik Gross - Erik says we can go back and look at what we were trying to make work in the first place, review the source material now that we have more experience, and be honest about where we failed to execute. - This process usually prevents looking at the shiny object and enables us to apply an engineering mindset to the recipe for success we were trying to follow. How can you go back and correct any mistakes? + For those in any creative or engineering space, Erik recommends reading A Technique for Producing Ideas by James Webb Young and says it lays out a mental model for generating ideas that is as reliable as engineering. - When Erik discovered the book, it was the first time he had seen that mental model laid out as a process. Erik also realized that he had been using the same mental model for years. Listen to how he describes his own “mental machine.” + After generating what seems like a great idea, an entrepreneur has to willingly subject the idea to scrutiny. Putting your idea into the marketplace of ideas or the marketplace of services and products takes some courage and humility. - “Be willing to be wrong. Be willing to take sometimes harsh feedback or criticism. It’s so much better to find out very quickly…. That feedback loop, especially in the early processes of an entrepreneurial launch of a product or service, that feedback loop should be hours or days.” – Erik Gross, on how entrepreneurs can think like engineers and use feedback loops - Fast feedback may come in the form of being advised not to do something. It would be better to get horrible feedback quickly instead of after months of effort spent building something. * Does becoming ok with failing fast remove attachment of ego to the idea? + Erik says yes and shares the story of working for a company that did 3D modeling around 2010. + While working there, Erik got what he thought was a great idea for a pocketbook for devices that could also hold other things. + Erik remembers sharing the idea with his management at the software company, and they told him it was not a good idea. While it was demoralizing to Erik, he knows they were right, especially with the change in form factor of mobile devices over time. + The experience of subjecting ideas to scrutiny can be humbling, but Erik stresses the importance of doing this very early on. + “When you get knocked down, the only person who can pick you up is you. And you have to agree to stay down. You have to agree to it…. It’s fine to get knocked down. Of course, it’s going to happen. It’s fine to feel bad for a little while. What are you going to do a little while later? Are you going to stand back up and jump back in, or are you not? That’s personal responsibility and integrity, and it’s a choice.” – Erik Gross
13:57 – Sources of Feedback* Where should the entrepreneur seek the fast feedback on an idea? + Erik would encourage listeners to check out Joel Erway, creator of The Power Offer. + In the online marketing space, we see consistent launches of new products and services. + The Power Offer as a framework says you should call out your specific audience, which requires you think deeply about who you want to sell to (i.e. an identity or persona). - Erik reminds us that we cannot sell a new product or service to everyone. + You’re asking a simple question to your intended audience about their interest in getting a specific benefit without certain obstacles or pain points. - Erik says it’s been extremely valuable to ask this type of question and that he’s done it probably 8 different times in the last couple of years. - Start with your warm market, which Erik defines as anyone you have the ability to contact right now. This might include social media followers, e-mail subscribers, etc. - “Business owners – if I could help you make more money and improve efficiency by leveraging cutting edge AI and automation tools without having to pay for expensive, time-consuming custom applications, would you be interested? …That’s one of the ones that worked. The ones that didn’t work are legion, but thank goodness I found out super fast.” – Erik Gross, an example of how he leveraged the Power Offer + Erik reminds us that people do not pay for your product or service. They pay for the benefit it provides. - It’s important to specify the audience so people can understand if what you’re offering can benefit them. And if it does, they will pay for it. - "It’s just a rapid feedback loop. That’s all it really is. It’s your chance to find out really quickly whether it’s got any legs. And in general, the people in your warm network are often very similar to the kind of people that you want to be working with anyway…. I have tremendous admiration for an entrepreneur, for a business owner who is willing to put themselves out there and try to grow and build something. I speak to them because I am them. " – Erik Gross, on leveraging your warm network to vet ideas - Erik is able to identify with the group that a product or service could help. Nick thinks that is important as part of this. + If no one expresses interest in your idea, it’s ok because you won’t spend time going and making the thing. - Erik says no one will remember that we didn’t make something. He’s tried out several ideas, and only a few of them were met with a lot of interest. + “It’s real easy when you come up with what you think is a really good idea to only look at that thing from your viewpoint. To get honestly really emotional about it or attached to it, it’s really really easy. An entrepreneur shouldn’t be concerned with their own viewpoint very much…. They need to consider the viewpoint of their ideal audience their ideal customer…. You are there to serve them. You are there to provide more value than they paid you for, and that’s really hard to figure out how to do if the only point of view about your product or service that you look at is yours….” – Erik Gross - In addition to feedback from the intended audience, we need people in our lives who are willing to give us critical feedback without fear of hurt feelings.
20:32 – Scaling Business Opportunities with Automation* How did the Most Valuable Knowledge Framework as we discussed in Episode 269 come into play as part of Erik’s ideation processes? + Erik says this is the earlier stage of ideation and something to help you think through what you could do. You might use Most Valuable Knowledge or some other mechanism to generate ideas. + If you’ve generated multiple ideas that you like, then it is time to go and get feedback on them as we’ve discussed. * How did Erik’s business idea end up landing in the automation space? + Erik says this one took longer than some of the other ideas he’s tried to test out in the marketplace. + About a year ago he was thinking about the opportunities in the online marketing and coaching space, and Erik stumbled upon Make.com. - He bought a lifetime membership, tinkered with it a little for social media content creation, thought it was cool, and then didn’t think about it much. + A couple of months ago Erik was working to find business opportunities with more scalability than what he had been doing. - Erik kept coming back to the automation space, but it seemed mechanical and kind of boring because the problem he was trying to solve was a little boring. - After remembering Erik had signed up for the Make.com platform, he decided to go research how other people were using it. He also found content produced by Liam Ottley on building a business in the AI and automation agency space. - “Wasn’t there something I was using or looked at a year ago…that might fit this new sort of area I’m interested in?” – Erik Gross * Did landing back on the same tool again have anything to do with not executing plans the way Erik wanted? + Erik gives the example of his coaching business. He loves the 1-1 interaction with clients but could not figure out how to scale it to a larger operation. + Part of the reason Erik is looking at entrepreneurial activities is to find something that can safely replace his 9 to 5 job. + If Erik were to become a full-time entrepreneur, in addition to financial stability, the work would need to satisfy his internal purpose to help people (something he loves doing). + “I want to see the person that I’m helping and look at them before, during, and after and just watch them expand and grow and do great. Whether that’s career coaching, whether that’s a business owner whose employees suddenly have 30% more of their time for highly valuable skilled knowledge work because of the automation solutions we build for them…I want to see that help. That’s my gratification. And yes, I want to get paid well for it.” – Erik Gross + Nick says getting the gratification one is seeking makes us more likely to iterate on an idea to improve it and make it more valuable to the people you’re trying to help – and execute the plan more efficiently. + Erik believes we should be working, should be of service to others, and that we should be busy. Erik also works very hard so he can enjoy leisure time.
26:36 – Entrepreneurial Succession Planning and Attitudes* How can the entrepreneur learn to notice it’s time to take a vacation and allow themselves to do it? + Erik has heard about the idea that an entrepreneur cannot take a vacation. - “If you have a business that requires you to be in the business, you don’t actually have a business.” – Erik Gross, sharing a strongly worded viewpoint he has heard from other successful people - Erik’s take is that each person has a unique level of sustained effort to put toward something. - “I’ve worked through that before, and I’ve learned that you actually harm yourself when you do it, and you harm the activity you’re trying to grow. The reason it’s growing is because of your drive, purpose, creative energy. And we can fool ourselves when we’re getting…burnt out, but it isn’t the same as it was when you’re not burned out.” – Erik Gross - Erik shares an example with us from his own life. He’s been working very hard for a number of weeks but shares a specific instance where he intentionally chose to take a morning to relax. + Suppose you’re an entrepreneur who accepts they are going to reach the point of burnout. - Erik stresses the importance of having a strategy for finding the right people you can trust to take on some of your responsibilities. - “And if that isn’t part of your initial process of planning this business, then you are really planning to have a much higher pressure second job.” – Erik Gross - Maybe you accept that at first a company will be just you, but you need to identify at what point you will bring on more staff, how you will find them, and how to know what they should be allowed to work on. - This is also helping to set up the eventual future sale of your company if that’s an outcome you want to consider. * Nick labels the above as succession planning. Entrepreneurs need to do this as do people managers. Many people want to hoard knowledge and struggle to want to train others or offload responsibilities. What is Erik’s take? + Erik has seen attitude this far too often, especially in service-based businesses. - It starts when an individual becomes extremely talented in an area like masonry, plumbing, etc. and then wants to grow their business. + Erik has observed 2 things that can harm growth. - The first is being unable to let go of delivery of the actual product or service, unable to completely trust that someone else will do it. The business owner / expert may truly believe no one else can do as good of a job as they can (due to the pride they find in their work). - Some are of the opinion training their people well means the people will leave and become competition. This is the same to Erik as “ideas are worthless. Execution is everything.” Building a person’s experience in service delivery does not mean they automatically know how to run a business. They do not see the pressure to make payroll or understand how to handle the marketing, the referrals, and other administrative tasks. It’s better for the business owner to invest in the people, even if they leave and go into business for themselves.
33:48 – Investing in People and Making Roles Occupiable* How do you figure out who to invest in whether you’re a business owner, a mentor, or a hiring manager? What are the qualities we should be looking for (keeping in mind our backgrounds are in technology)? + This is something Erik and his co-founder Jack really had to work through for The Tech Academy. In the beginning, they did everything. Early on they defined a strategy to help in this area that’s been successful. + “Periodically, we would list out…all the things still on our plate. At the beginning it was everything…. We’d list out all the different roles we were fulfilling. And then we would figure out which one of those roles is keeping us from selling and delivering, the pillars of the organization. Because those are things we had strong expertise in and that guaranteed the survival of the company. So we’d look at…what are those things on that list that we’re doing that aren’t actually selling or actually delivering? And there would be a lot of them. Ok, which one would free us up the most?” – Erik Gross, on what he and his co-founder at The Tech Academy would do as part of a strategy + At this point people usually go out and start hiring, but Erik suggests there are more steps to do this well. - "You have to define the role you want them to do and make that role occupiable…. - Making a role occupiable means listing out everything that role does, the tools someone in that role would need, and the process used to get tasks completed. The process may be almost habit for you, but you need to be thinking of people who are new to the company / team and would not know this by default. They immediately would have some background and understanding of what to do. - Erik says consider any basic orientation outside the person’s role that is needed. If that doesn’t exist, you will need to prepare it. - All of the above takes time, and it’s time away from selling and delivering and doing the role in question. - “But it’s worth the time to organize it because what will happen is as you define that role, you will start to get a very clear picture of who could actually occupy that role. And so when you actually go out and promote it you can describe the exact kind of person you’re looking for, the exact ideal skillset, the exact attitude because you laid it all out, very clearly, on paper.” – Erik Gross - Doing this up front is a service to anyone walking into the role. That person then walks into a role that is well-defined. - Erik shares a story from his time at IBM as a client / server developer. There was no explanation of what the role meant or what he would really be doing day to day. The onboarding document was outdated, and it took 3 weeks for him to gain access to the proper systems to make meaningful contributions.
37:53 – Thoughts on Employee Onboarding* What are some of the questions Erik wishes he had asked in interviews based on the idea of writing a really good job description for someone? + What does onboarding look like? Erik loves to ask this question. - If the company doesn’t place emphasis on onboarding, it’s not a good sign. - In technology roles specifically, Erik values a set of onboarding documents with some knowledge of how to access credentials to required systems. Someone should be able to follow these without needing to bother existing team members. - “I never want to be that guy or girl that arrives on the team and is constantly asking people for information that they know should already be written down somewhere. Them answering is keeping them from their much more valuable work.” – Erik Gross + Is there an architecture overview of the systems in use? + Does an onboarding document include the tools one would need to install, where to get credentials, location of code libraries, etc.? + Employee onboarding is more than just HR stuff like payroll and tax information. * If we look at this from the other side, how quickly can the entrepreneur impart context to new employees? + Relevant context would be things like: - Why the company was formed (i.e. purpose) - Who the company serves - The benefit people get when they interact with the company - The products and services offered to provide the benefit - How the products and services are delivered - Who new employees would work with to make a contribution to the above + A web developer needs more context than just being told to build an application to deliver actual value. + Erik says impart the context to the new employee, and then show them how to do the processes of their job. + All that context comes from doing the prep work of clearly defining the role (which Erik would classify as making the role occupiable). - Erik mentions doing all of the work up front somehow enables you to find the right person. It’s happened to him a number of times. - “I hire a lot of overseas developers and technical talent of all sorts…. I’ve found that every time I do a really good job of fully describing…the exact bounds of their role and what my plans are for onboarding them and how I’m going to pay them and how I’m going to do continuing education for them…which parts of my service or product will I have them do initially and then what will I have them do as they get up to speed. When I’ve defined all of that, now I can craft a really well-optimized job posting. And I get the kind of people that I want to be talking to to respond. And I can quickly in 2, 3, 4, 5 days filter through that…have 3 people I interview, and hire one of them.” – Erik Gross - When Erik does not do things like the above, he doesn’t get the right people as quickly, and he might not know the right questions to ask in interviews. Not doing the pre-work can make someone look unprofessional. * Sometimes we put effort into building expertise in areas because it can bring us pleasure, and other times we build expertise to avoid pain. The pre-work we are talking about for the job descriptions and making the role occupiable is more of the latter. + Bringing on people means you are asking them to join you in a mission. + Certainly you need a viable, sustainable company that can pay you and your employees. But it was built for a reason. + “You can treat them just like they’re interchangeable, just like gears in a machine, or you can go ‘no, they’re not.’ When you treat them as individuals and care about the kind of people you bring in, it’s unbelievable how much extra they bring to the table that you never found out even during those initial interviews.” – Erik Gross, on treating people well by being prepared + Erik has consistently found the people he’s hired know about other things that surprised him in a good way. And it led to deeper collaboration. But it was due to getting clarity up front to make the role accessible and occupiable.
43:57 – Transferring Duties to Others* Does writing the job description allow you to accept or let go of the fact that duties will be offloaded to someone else? + Erik says it does but not always. + At The Tech Academy, the hardest duty to let go of and offload for Erik and Jack was content creation. + Erik is very good at making curriculum and teaching. So is Jack. They had written nearly 50 job descriptions for the company before finally handling the curriculum / content creation role (including sales and delivery). + Part of their challenge was clarifying the thought processes, the background data, and the methodology behind imparting technical knowledge effectively. + “I can look at it right away and know, but it’s that expert’s curse. How do I articulate what went on in my evaluation of that piece of data?” – Erik Gross, on clarifying curriculum creation methodologies + Erik and Jack created an apprenticeship program in which participants would iteratively try to create a piece of content with feedback on each iteration. Upon each iteration, Erik and Jack would correct the person but also go back to the training materials they had created to determine what might be missing. + “You asked this question in the context of being unwilling to let go. There is nothing that you bring to the table as the business owner, entrepreneur, or creator of the thing…there is nothing you can’t transfer, even if it seems like it’s so intrinsic to who and what you are. But that was not an easy lesson for us to learn. We both had to learn that one.” – Erik Gross, on learning how to transfer their knowledge to someone else
Mentioned in the Outro* The Power Offer sounds like something that could be used to propose new projects within your company and possibly to expand our scope influence within the company. Nick gives the example of a small problem with a marketing system indicating a deeper root cause that needs fixing. + Our warm network is our co-workers. + Another way to test our ideas is to share them with members of our technical community (in-person or online). * Erik shared a good process the entrepreneur, business owner, or hiring manager could follow before creating a job requisition. + Identify the work someone in this role would need to do at a high level. It could be like Erik described, work that is getting in the way of more valuable work or a specific set of work that needs a dedicated person. Then get more specific: - What are the processes someone in this role would need to follow? - What are the tools the person in this role would use? - What systems would someone need to access in this role? - What knowledge do they require upon hire vs. what you will teach them? - Who will the person in this role collaborate with? - How will the work done in this role change over time? - What salary is appropriate for someone in the role? + Being very specific forces good documentation of processes and tools and the work being done, and it forces you to keep updating that documentation. - This also eases the transfer of responsibilities to someone else. + We discussed the necessity of giving a new employee context about the company, the purpose, and where the employee’s role fits. You can give them purposeful work and an understanding of that purpose as soon as they start! * For more episodes on entrepreneurship, check out: + Episode 235 – The Best Bad Option with Al Elliott (1/2) + Episode 236 – Having the Vision, Charting the Path, Removing the Blockers with Al Elliott (2/2) + Episode 96 – Building Your Own Business From Idea to Operations with Ashley Connell
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Are you solving the right problem? To get a specific outcome, the problem we need to solve is not always what we think it is. Abby Clobridge, the founder and lead consultant at FireOak Strategies, and her team perform detailed discovery with clients to ensure everyone is aligned to solve the right problem(s).
This week in episode 293 we discuss Abby’s transition to becoming a consultant and her reasons for starting a business. We get educated on what knowledge management involves, some of the challenges related to achieving effective organizational knowledge management, and how we can each do our part to promote a culture of knowledge sharing. Listen closely for when Abby learned she didn’t want to spend her time just managing people.
Original Recording Date: 08-23-2024
Abby Clobridge is the founder and lead consultant at FireOak Strategies. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Abby, check out Episode 292.
Topics – Relatable Experience for Consulting and Starting a Business, Organizational Challenges in Knowledge Management, Uncovering the Context and the Problem, Centralized Governance vs. Crowdsourcing, Organizational Profiles and Evaluation Criteria, Knowledge Management Roles in the Enterprise2:37 – Relatable Experience for Consulting and Starting a Business* Was living in the in between space the relatable experience Abby needed to take to consulting? + Abby thinks it was. She understood navigating this space, knew how to communicate with other stakeholders and co-workers, and enabled them to make informed decisions based on their knowledge of the organization. + Abby also likes to solve problems. Once she helps solve a problem, she is ready to move on to something else. Abby says leaving a company every couple of years because the problems are solved is not very sustainable, but she gets to do this all the time as a consultant. - This perspective has influenced the work she does now at FireOak Strategies. - “I always tell our clients…and I truly mean this…when they don’t need us anymore, I think that’s a win. That means that you’ve graduated. We solved the problem that we set out to solve, and I feel really good about that.” – Abby Clobridge * What made Abby want to start a business? + “I did kind of have an unusual background. I was working in technology, but I was not coming at this from a programming perspective or an engineering perspective at all. I think my ability to do that translation piece and think about process and think about governance and think about compliance and intellectual property…it was unusual 15 years ago. And I was able to leverage that.” – Abby Clobridge, on deciding to start her own consulting business + Abby says it was about the problems that could be solved and how that could help organizations. + Abby began as a solo consultant in 2010 and founded FireOak Strategies with the intention to keep the company small. For 5 years it was just her. + Being a solo consultant and business owner allows you to do only so many things at once like taking on certain projects of certain scopes / natures. + Abby recounts a specific project as being the catalyst for initially adding addiitonal staff to the company. - “I don’t want to get to the point where I’m spending most of my time managing other people and I’m not doing the consulting work because I really enjoy the consulting work.” – Abby Clobridge, on the conscious decision to keep her company small to grow one project or experience at a time + Going out on your own is challenging, and most people who do it likely do not know what they are getting themselves into. - “I was a good consultant, but I didn’t necessarily know anything about running a business. So you have to learn that really quickly and learn how to manage your own time and figure out what are your going to do and what are you going to outsource.” – Abby Clobridge - Outsourcing might mean deciding what to give to an accountant, who will call the insurance company or a lawyer, etc. You have to do this while trying to get new clients and complete existing client projects. - Reflecting back on the experience, Abby says her background did not prepare her for this initial experience as a business owner. + Going into business for herself was something Abby wanted to try, and she had no idea if it would work out successfully. - She did not want to keep relocating every time she wanted a new job or quitting and looking for a new job after solving the problem(s). - The variety of getting to solve different problems was very appealing to Abby. - Abby decided to try consulting for a year or two and go from there. She tells us it was not well thought out any more than the above. - Abby had good connections from previous jobs but did not have a series of projects lined up once she started her business. For those looking to start a business, it’s a good idea to have projects lined up which can be started right away. - Abby considered failure as a possible outcome to going into business for herself, but she felt that even if she did fail, it would not be so devastating that she could not do something else. - Abby had been on a number of job interviews, but none seemed exciting. - “Yeah, I could go in, and I could do this job in my sleep. I’m positive I can because it’s a job I’ve done before. I’ve solved this problem already. This environment is really similar, but I don’t really want to do it. I’m not going to be happy doing it. And I think I had that realization of…I don’t really know exactly what I want to do next. I had been working in university libraries for probably about 10 years at that point, and I knew I didn’t want to be a library director…. And I have all this experience that’s kind of all over the place but all connected to information management, architecture, technology…so what do I do with this? I felt like there were a ton of different things that I could do but none of them were what was supposed to be on paper at the next step, and it was just time to figure out something totally different…. I really wanted to try to do something that I thought I could enjoy and wasn’t going to be bored doing….” – Abby Clobridge, on starting her own business - If Abby failed as a consultant, she would be able to go back and get one of the jobs similar to something she had previously done. But she also considered that it might work. - Abby wanted to be able to take advantage of technology as it changed in whatever she did. - She also did not want to spend 60% of a week managing people and feels figuring this out was an inflection point in her career. Not everyone comes to this realization as fast as they might like. - Abby had needed to manage in the job she had right before going into business for herself. In higher education, it is assumed you will have a 1-hour 1-1 meeting with your direct reports. This also does not include time spent on team meetings, skip-level meetings, performance reviews, and new hires. - My feeling was, ‘how do I get back to the work?’ And someone said, ‘well, this is the work.’ Oh…this isn’t the work I want to do. And that was a moment for me." – Abby Clobridge, on realizing she did not like management tasks - John says when people decide to become managers, they might not know that is the job. The higher someone gets in an organization, the more meetings which are involved. - It was a challenge in the library world to find any type of balance between being close to the work and doing people management work. More options may be available in the tech world, for example. - For those who enjoy focused blocks of time to write scripts, reports, or work on projects…stopping to take a meeting can be frustrating. Abby learned this about herself. - “How can I take what I like to do and create my own job instead of shopping around to try to find one that’s perfect?” – Abby Clobridge - This is great insight for those considering people management. - John recently faced this same struggle at an internal work conference recently. There was a session about new products scheduled at the same time as a session on being a better technical manager. - “I know that I want to go to the new product sessions, but that’s not actually my job any more…. My technical session is how to advance my skills on being a technical manager.” – John White, commenting on the difference between knowing this fact intellectually and feeling it emotionally - Abby says you can learn a lot about yourself when you have to give people who report to you the projects you would like to be working on.
14:46 – Organizational Challenges in Knowledge Management* Is providing consulting in knowledge management about educating customers on current toolsets, the cultural and organizational changes that might be needed, more about process changes, or something else? + Abby says it is different for every organization. Most of the time her company gets a call when an organization knows they could improve in an area but isn’t sure how they can improve. - One example is a team at a company saying they need a new intranet but the finance team not wanting them to purchase a tool to rebuild the current intranet. - Abby says a new platform doesn’t always solve the problem, but it does sometimes. + In these scenarios it is important to diagnose the problems. - Is it a problem of poor linking, information not being present, inability to access necessary information, or an actual platform problem? - Maybe it’s an internal cultural issue like employees not wanting to share information with each other. - The customer may not know what is possible, it could be a metadata problem, or it could be a governance problem. - “Making sure that we’re solving the right problem is the really key thing. We spend a lot of time in that kind of diagnosis / discovery phase trying to make sure that we’re solving the right problems.” – Abby Clobridge - Abby shares a story from her early consulting career where a customer wanted a new taxonomy, but she knew early on it would not solve their problem. She likes to focus on solving the right problem to prevent wasting time or delivering something that won’t fix an issue. - Some customers are more willing to address their problems and actually make changes than others. Over the last 15 years, Abby and her team have worked with a lot of clients who have very different approaches to everything. It often comes down to organizational culture. - If the answer is not write a check and buy something, some customers are very exited at this, while others do not want to hear it. * John says we often see trends in the few companies we have worked with over time. Some companies see the amount of information people share as an indicator of employee value to the organization. He mentions only working for 1 company which had this baked into their culture. How common is it to see organizations value knowledge sharing? + This really varies across companies. An organization can say they mean it but not have the right incentives in place for their employees to execute well. + Abby recommends understanding how people are measured against knowledge sharing, where performance evaluations and human resources fit into that, and where organizational culture fits. A picture of the holistic current state is important to see if an organization is encouraging the behavior it wants. If not, then the culture will need to change over time to align incentives with behavior. + During times of economic change or organizational change (new CEO, etc.), knowledge sharing or a focus on good documentation may get lost or de-prioritized. Some may not perceive the efforts as being as valuable as they really could be for an organization. + Some customers may want to address a specific pain point like lengthy employee onboarding. Abby shares a scenario where a company took 3 years to get from new hire to effective employee. Shortening the time to effectiveness of an employee translates to dollars and can be very powerful. - Doing this takes documentation and regular knowledge sharing within teams. + Part of knowledge management is taking time to review the lessons learned, understanding that failures will happen, looking for ways to improve, and trying to avoid repeating the same mistakes. Abby says it is sometimes as simple as changing a mindset to more of a knowledge sharing mindset. * John reached out to Abby about being a guest after reading her blog titled 8 Ways to Incorporate Knowledge Capture into Everyday Operations. + One important point from the blog was incorporating knowledge management into performance reviews. John finds this kind of mind blowing in a good way and likes the idea of someone being more valuable to a company based on how much knowledge / information they have provided back to help others. + If a company really values a specific behavior and wants to encourage it, aligning with performance reviews is one way to do that. + When it comes to knowledge sharing, anyone within the organization can do it, both the individual contributor and the manager. It shows that everyone can contribute value. - Abby gives the example of a new hire writing a process document that didn’t exist and sharing with peers. That is extremely valuable, but we need the company and its leaders to not consider that effort a waste of time but rather to reward the behavior. - John highlights the value of people pointing out blind spots within an organization through not being able to find something and then helping to fill the gaps like in Abby’s example. + Abby and her team are knowledge management platform agnostic. She is not a fan of standalone knowledge management systems. - There is a way to do knowledge management within the bounds of just about any platform (Microsoft, Google Workspace, Salesforce, etc.). - Many people are using Obsidian and Notion for personal knowledge management (a category of its own), and Abby supports that. These tools work well to get information into your second brain in a way that makes sense, but these tools do not scale for use across an enterprise. - “For work-related things, having knowledge captured and therefore searchable and findable and reusable within the places where people are going to do that…that’s where it needs to live, even if it’s ugly.” – Abby Clobridge - The goal of organizational knowledge management is for someone to find something and make sense out of it so it can help them quickly. - John says personal knowledge management tools have highlighted the value of the back link. Knowing what documents link to another document or refer to it is something that seems to be missing from the metadata in most data platforms. - Abby says existing platforms for knowledge management have room for improvement in various areas (backlinks, better metadata, etc.) from a capability and ease of use standpoint. AI will drive some of that improvement. - Abby was playing with Microsoft Loop recently. She appreciates the direction the product is going, but there is much more improvement needed. Perhaps in 5 years these platforms and tools will be much better and different than they are today. - John points out certain AI tools are great for summarizing data but may cause loss of the original source and document author in the process and could potentially take something out of context.
29:05 – Uncovering the Context and the Problem* Do people take knowledge management and what it means out of context? Does knowledge management apply to internal-facing content, external-facing content, or perhaps both? + “I personally think knowledge management can mean whatever it needs to mean for any company.” – Abby Clobridge + If the goal is for an organization to have a knowledge management strategy and an implementation strategy that goes along with it, goes back to the problems that need to be solved. Sometimes it is internal, sometimes it is external, and sometimes it is both. - One example Abby shares is a company that wants to focus on knowledge base articles available to customers and perhaps how to improve access to information or onboarding within the call center. - Another example is an organization that has not been incorporating lessons learned wanting to use these as part of continuous improvement to avoid future mistakes. + Before beginning, the problem an organization is trying to solve should be specified as clearly as possible so everyone is on the same page. - The above often falls into creating new knowledge, using existing knowledge, properly managing and securing the knowledge, who the knowledge should be shared with, and even integrating with AI tools. Lengthy retention policies and never cleaning up old data can cause AI to provide bad data. + Abby highlights the issues above as a segue between her prior focus on open access to that of internal / external knowledge management. - Think about who the audience is and what you are trying to accomplish. * After doing a lot of discovery, how does it generally go when Abby and team have to tell a customer they are solving the wrong problem? + Abby stresses the importance of doing discovery to ensure focus is placed on the right problems. + All of the discovery comes before deciding to invest in a new platform, etc. + “That’s the value of discovery. Are we sure we’re solving the right problems? Because there might be a very simple solution…. Organizational culture and governance have the potential to be really simple. At least, there’s not a direct price tag associated with them. But often it’s the most complicated to solve. Sometimes it’s just re-organizing things. Sometimes it’s tweaking what’s already there.” – Abby Clobridge + Many times for knowledge base and intranet projects there is a lack of process / procedure for governance issues like: - How often should a piece of content be updated? - Who will own the update / maintenance for specific items? - Are subject matter experts looking over any updates? - Can a user easily see the last time a piece of content was updated to determine if it can be trusted? - How do we report something is out of date, and whose job is it to do something about it?
35:01 – Centralized Governance vs. Crowdsourcing* What about central governance vs. crowdsourcing information within an organization? + This depends on the organization, the space in which they are working, and the level of precision needed. - Consider situations like FDA regulations, material or machine tolerance levels, etc. where precision is required. In these cases, crowdsourcing is not the way to go in Abby’s opinion. - Crowdsourcing is quite valuable in the development of organizational best practices. * Non-profits could potentially find value in crowdsourcing. * The answer does not have to be all central governance or all crowdsourcing for a specific organization. - In circumstances where precision is required and greater accountability for the information is required, central governance will be the better choice. * Abby gives the example of the need for precision in the nuclear energy space. - “The other issue with crowdsourcing is nobody is responsible because everybody is responsible. Therefore, whose responsibility is it that we get things updated and that we have it maintained and that…somebody has signed off in saying ‘this is still the way that we’re doing things?’” – Abby Clobridge - If crowdsourcing a really large organization, consider things like: * How do you balance this with other work so employees can spend time contributing? * How does your manager feel about it? * Is it consistent within the organization? * Are roles and responsibilities and expectations clear that crowdsourcing will be part of the job? This is where HR comes into play.
37:33 – Organizational Profiles and Evaluation Criteria How could we use inquiries about knowledge management to evaluate a company during the interview process? + Abby says knowledge management might mean something different to different people, but we can ask about knowledge sharing (which most people understand). As what a new staff member should expect in terms of knowledge sharing. - If the interviewer cannot answer or really struggles to answer, it could be a red flag. - If the company values knowledge sharing, the interviewer should be able to describe programs and priorities around knowledge sharing or provide examples of how it is done at the company. + Ask whether knowledge sharing is a performance review metric. - Abby says this is not the norm, but she feels it can really accelerate culture change like nothing else. * The profile of organizations that Abby and her teams work with generally fall into 2 buckets: Small to mid-size organizations (usually around 50 – 200 employees) or organizations who have grown quickly but have not scaled up their knowledge management processes and technology stack Fortune 500 / Fortune 1000 companies that may want to focus on a specific division and its operations Organizations like this usually have a technology stack and technical skills internally. They may not have the time or people to focus on improving organization and searchability of data, but the organization recognizes the importance of getting people the proper set of useful information as quickly as possible. Other organizations of this size may be looking at externally facing elements like a public knowledge base or a call center. People inside these organizations may be too close to the content and unable to look at it from the perspective of someone external to the company. In a lot of these cases, the content may exist, but the system used to access it doesn’t work well or isn’t easy to use. An organization may know something could be better but may not be sure what to do about it or feel overwhelmed by the task. Abby says it takes reaching a certain tipping point before someone is willing to take action (even if that involves re-organizing what is in SharePoint, etc.). Structured and organized internal knowledge allow you to use AI tools like Glean and others to produce greater efficiencies. Many organizations know they are not there yet but are trying to be proactive.
44:26 – Knowledge Management Roles in the Enterprise* Is there a need within organizations to have something like a librarian role? + Abby says she has been seeing knowledge manager roles and even departments, but she advises her customers not to view people in these roles as a dumping ground for stuff. + In an operations division, for example, the knowledge management team would not be responsible for updating individual pages in the knowledge base. They would be responsible for things like building automations based on content update frequency, making sure the right people are notified to provide content updates, etc. Abby refers to the role of someone in knowledge management as “serving as that catalyst to make sure that things are happening.” + There must also be accountability for people to actually update content pages. It’s a governance issue and can be where things fall apart. * In a company that may not holistically value knowledge management / knowledge sharing, what can the front line leader do to create a culture of knowledge sharing for their team? + The front line leader can look at things like turnover or increase in staff. What could the team be doing to help onboard new members quickly? + “You’re probably hiring people who are coming in with a set of skills, so we’re not going to teach somebody Python scripting if that’s what’s needed for this job. We’re going to assume that they can either figure it out or they have that skill already. But we want it documented in this certain way or we want it done in this certain way, and here’s our company or our department’s special way of doing things. And that’s the part to focus on.” – Abby Clobridge, on a culture of knowledge sharing + Consider writing a manual for the department that the group collectively puts together so it doesn’t fall on any single individual. + Listen to Abby describe a non-profit former client in which each department had no standard operating procedures that were documented. - There was a specific department who wrote up their own operation procedures even though the organization had not mandated that any department do it. - The department which had done the documentation had someone leave and was able to quantify the time and effort saved in getting a new member up to speed. Sharing quantifiable success stories with other departments can influence their decision to take a grass roots approach rather than a top-down approach. + Sometimes it just takes a few people to start something inside an organization. + Even the new hire who sees a gap and puts together something to share with others (a process, a systematic approach, etc.) can contribute to organizational knowledge management. * To follow up on this discussion, you can contact Abby on LinkedIn.
Mentioned in the Outro* Abby referred to the things she enjoyed doing as “the work” – solving problems, solving the right problems for her customers. She did not want to get too far from that work. Being a consultant allows her to continue to do the work she enjoys even as her business has grown. + For business owners listening, hopefully you can structure your job to allow focus on the work you love for at least some of your day / week. + If you are a manager or individual contributor, can you find ways to do more of the things you enjoy in your work? - Could you do more of a certain type of projects, get deeper in a specific technology, or collaborate with a certain group of people more often? - If not, perhaps you can look for job descriptions with the first few requirements containing areas of work where you have expertise and that you enjoy. - Think about these things as you work through your Must Have List shared with us by Kat and Liz from Real Job Talk a few episodes ago. * Abby’s story reminded Nick of a couple of previous guests: + Chris Williams took a role as a consultant to avoid boredom, which sounds a lot like Abby’s reasons for becoming a consultant. - Check out Episode 229 – A Depth and a Breadth with Chris Williams (1/3) to hear the full story. + David Klee wants to help his customers solve a specific problem once so that next time they can bring him in to fix a different problem since he already taught them how to fix the first problem. - Check out Episode 119 – Tinkering into Specialty with David Klee (1/2) to hear the full story as well as [Episode 120 – A Time to Build with David Klee (2/2)(https://nerd-journey.com/a-time-to-build-with-david-klee-2-2/). - This is also further surfacing of this theme of consultants as educators. * Though we did not call it knowledge sharing or knowledge management at the time, Chris Wahl spoke about people inside his company blogging to build connections with co-workers. + Check out Episode 149 – Find Your Gratitude, Find Your Joy with Chris Wahl (2/2) near the end to read Chris’ blog article on this topic. + If people are sharing lessons learned inside their company in blog form, it would not only build connections but make people better communicators. This supports a culture of knowledge sharing and could lend itself to keeping content more up to date.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
What do you think the following jobs have in common? The answer will give you a hint about our guest this week!
- Doing statistical work for a market research firm
- Conducting research for a popular news network
- Architecting information flow and query optimization for websites
- Leading digitization initiatives for a university
- Becoming a consultant
- Owning a business
Abby Clobridge, our guest in episode 292, held all of the above jobs as a result of pursuing a degree in library science. Listen closely for the parallels between learning how to architect information flow / retrieval for websites and learning how to architect communication flow so that people needing information get just enough at the right time and with the appropriate level of detail. This includes learning how to exercise brevity in communication while being assertive. You’ll also hear how Abby worked on natural language processing and sentiment analysis years before we had mature tools to do it.
Original Recording Date: 08-23-2024
Topics – Falling into Library Science, The Technical Nature of Library Science, The Architect of Information, Just Enough Information, Exercising Assertive Brevity, Leading Digital Initiatives and Walled Gardens2:49 – Falling into Library Science* Abby Clobridge is the founder and lead consultant at FireOak Strategies. + FireOak Strategies is a boutique consulting firm specializing in information management, knowledge management, and everything related to how information, data, and knowledge are managed, secured, and shared. * In college, Abby studied history at Tufts University and wasn’t quite sure what she might do after graduation. + Tufts had an experimental college that allowed undergraduate students to teach a class to first year students, but it required a faculty mentor / sponsor. Abby was teaching a class, and her mentor was the head of information technology and human resources at the undergraduate library. + Abby kept in touch with this mentor as she got closer to graduating, and she had also done internships focused on research for producing a documentary and other things adjacent to history. + Abby’s mentor kept suggesting she attend grad school and look at library science as an option. + The library science program aligned with Abby’s interests(using technology, looking at information, doing research) and combined them with the use of analytical skills. * John jokes that library science is the original information technology and highlights the pattern we are seeing that there is no traditional background to get into technology fields.
5:43 – The Technical Nature of Library Science* People might not know how technical library can be. * For reference, Abby was studying as an undergraduate in the mid 1990s and was getting into library science in the late 1990s. During this time, doing research was not doing a Google search on a computer or phone. It was very different than today. This was before all the tools we can now use for free. + Most of Abby’s initial work had to do with online searches and paid databases like LexisNexis, Avid, WestLaw, Dialogue, etc. + Doing a search with one of the above tools wasn’t just typing in a search term / phrase like it is today. People needed to learn query languages that were specific to each database provider. When crafting a query, it was important to refine your query to get all of the necessary information needed because of the cost of doing searches using these tools. + “It’s not that different from writing a script to do a thing using Python. It’s the same general conceptual work but in a very different way. So I think having those skills and spending time in that space early on in my career was really helpful.” – Abby Clobridge, on doing paid database searches before the time of Google search + While in grad school, Abby worked for a market research firm doing data and statistical analysis using SPSS, which is similar to doing programming and scripting (same kinds of skills). * Were the computer skills Abby needed for the jobs she held while in grad school taught to her as part of the program or something she had to pick up on her own? + Abby says it was a combination of both and cites learning basic HTML as part of the program. * What made Abby decide to give library science a try after her mentor suggested it? + Abby’s mother was a librarian, and as a result she was familiar with what a graduate degree in the space might look like. From Abby’s perspective, many who pursue library science end up having unusual career paths. + She talked to other people and did research on other options before saying yes to library science. + “I knew that pretty much anything I was going to do was going to have some aspect of technology and information science and information organization connected to it, so it seemed like a good, very open ended option that wasn’t necessarily going to mean I was going to end up working at a library.” – Abby Clobridge, on choosing library science + Nick says if someone recommends we look at a particular field of study or type of job we should give it thoughtful consideration because it means the person sees something in us we might not have seen in ourselves. John calls it a package of aptitude and skills. Abby would add interests as well to this. - Abby can think of 2 different internships she was part of while studying history that contributed to her decision to pursue library science. - “Experiences led me to spending a lot of time in libraries and a lot of time looking for a needle in a haystack, and the satisfaction that I got when finding it is something that I really enjoy. So I think that’s something that you either really like doing or you don’t, and there’s not much of a middle ground maybe. It kind of made sense then when somebody said, ‘these things that you like doing and that you’re good at, there is a career here. You’re just not sure exactly what it would look like, and it doesn’t have to be the person behind the circulation desk who is checking out books or helping somebody teach a class on how to do research. There’s more administrative work involved. There’s technical work involved.’ There’s a whole bunch of other options here that I hadn’t necessarily thought about.” – Abby Clobridge * What did Abby see as potential careers once she went through the program? + Abby thinks doing the statistical work as part of the job she held while in the program was the most surprising. She really enjoyed it and the analysis of large amounts of data in different ways. - While an undergraduate Abby was analyzing words and patterns to specifically answer a question. - While she was in grad school the statistical work at the market research firm was more about analyzing numbers and being able to tell a story around the data. * There was a lot of data representing customer satisfaction with a specific company or product, and Abby was involved in writing reports that went along with this data. * “How does the data answer the questions that you’re trying to answer? And it’s not just ‘let’s put together a table’ but really craft an entire story around it. And I thought that was really interesting. And it kind of all made sense and started to fit together in a weird sort of way with information and data and the knowledge that you can glean from these things….” – Abby Clobridge * Abby understood the work she did was an example of how companies could use this type of data. It answered the question of why companies should do market research or some type of data-driven analysis. - John says it sounds like Abby was doing natural language processing (an early precursor to it as we know it today). * Abby says as more tools have developed in these areas over the last 20-25 years it has allowed us to take advantage of these new tools quickly and rethink how we do things for improved efficiency. * John points out Abby was (in the 1990s) basically working on the number 1 use case for natural language processing today – sentiment analysis. * But Abby tells us she was not doing it in a cutting edge way. Today’s tools could scrape sentiment from social media. At this time at the market research firm people were making phone calls and going to malls to get people to take surveys (with hand written responses).
15:36 – The Architect of Information* Did the statistical work land Abby her first job after graduate school? + No. After grad school, Abby worked for a company selling engineering standards (ASTM standards for building things). Many of the standards were paper books at that time and not digital copies. + Abby was in charge of creating the information architecture and taxonomy for the company’s website so people could locate a standard and place and order for it (i.e. early ecommerce). + At that time, Abby was focused on organizing the information on the website, its navigation, and making searches on the site efficient. + Nick thought maybe Abby was architecting databases and the flows of information in and out of the databases and how to visualize the data on the company website. - Abby says in some ways yes, but she was not a database administrator or programmer. - “Being the go between, the translator between, ok, this is what people are searching for. We have data that is telling us that. How do we construct the database? And then kind of bridging the gap between the two. And that is still a skill that is incredibly useful today, that translation piece.” – Abby Clobridge - This is the metadata we store in databases about the data, or what we might call information taxonomy. - Abby says this is completely relevant today, but it goes well beyond websites due to the volume of data that exists. - You might see this metadata / taxonomy applied across many SharePoint sites, for example, to highlight the most important data or data that needs to be kept vs. that which needs to be archived. We would need to think about where version control comes in and what data is feed to AI tools to produce good results. - Maybe we’re just solving the same problem today but using different tools that are making things easier while at the same time having so much more data to examine. - Storage is cheaper these days, and many of us just hold on to digital data indefinitely. Abby highlights the need to ensure AI tools are only looking at good data and not junk data. We have to figure out how to help those tools tell the difference so that we can get meaningful answers to our search queries quickly. * Did information architecture experience make Abby a better researcher? + She tells us the two are very closely connected almost in a chicken and egg type relationship. + Abby thinks the information architecture work may have made her better at coming up with alternative ways to search for the data she needed (i.e. thinking from different angles or perspectives).
20:09 – Just Enough Information* Abby worked at the CNN News Library in the late 1990s / early 2000s. She would often need to find a needle in a haystack from the video library, for example. The job was news research. It could be hard to imagine if you didn’t live through it. + New employees like Abby would get weekend shifts on Saturdays or Sundays. Hers was Saturday mornings. There was a running joke that things always happened on Saturday mornings when the newest person was around. It felt very much like that was the case to Abby. + Abby recounts the story of one of the first Saturdays she was by herself. It happened to be when John F. Kennedy, Junior’s plane went missing. She received a call from a news anchor during the commercial break who needed information about Kennedy by the time the commercial was over. She had to get correct information very quickly at a time when Wikipedia did not exist. + Fielding requests for information and understanding that many of them were very urgent was part of the job. + “I learned really quickly that people were not looking for an exhaustive set of research about everything. They were in the car on the way to interview somebody. They need a couple of paragraphs that they can digest quickly or a couple of really great articles that summarize what they need in a short sort of way because you’re not going to have time to sift through 100 pages. Learning how to do that synthesis and pick the best articles and decide what they need to know and what you trust and what you don’t trust really quickly became really important.” – Abby Clobridge, on working as a researcher for CNN + Nick thinks this is similar to working the help desk fielding severity 1 calls. On the spot you have to do troubleshooting and get the right solution to the problem as quickly as possible. + “Within the information space, how do you get people what they need as easily as possible so it’s the right level of details so that they can do whatever it is that they need to do with it? That is still something that as the amount of information, the quantities just keep increasing, in some ways it becomes harder and harder, not easier to do.” – Abby Clobridge + Nick says this is the same problem people have communication with their manager or a senior level leader. We often give them (our leaders) way too much information without summarizing it or putting it into the form that is needed. - Abby says this is a frequent topic among team members at FireOak Strategies. - Anyone at a relatively high level is going to read the e-mails they receive from their phone. If what you need to say isn’t in the top of the message body, it might be too much information that someone else won’t read. - Abby suggests if we need to give background info or more context, put a summary at the top of your e-mail with further details / context below it. - This is an even bigger problem now with many people reading messages on a smart watch (less words people see upon first glance and more potential for something to get lost). Keep the message simple and brief. - Abby suggests when we need an answer, ask your questions in a way that gets you a yes, a no, or a “let’s discuss it later.” Structure your questions to enable a quick answer from others. + Do most people who become people managers understand they will need to train their teams to do the above? - Abby thinks most people don’t necessarily know they will eventually become a people manager. People also might not have training on how to become a manager. New managers might have to learn by doing or learn from the examples of good managers they’ve had over time. + Did Abby practice the summarization technique we discussed (or the idea of just enough information) in communicating with her management? - CNN was a little bit different. If a news anchor, a producer, or a reporter called the turnaround was so fast that there wasn’t time to wait for or interject approval from a manager. - "You had to learn how to do it yourself really quickly. And if you couldn’t you weren’t going to last very long because there just isn’t time to go get somebody else… The feedback was more direct because of the nature of the work that I was doing and the people who I was working with. They would call back – ‘no, I don’t want 20 pages. I’m literally in the car, and I’m going to be there in 10 minutes. I need something shorter.’ " – Abby Clobridge - The immediate nature of the feedback Abby got in the role at CNN helped her refine her communication skills and to determine the level of depth needed based on the request. - Though Abby runs her company, she still works with clients and considers each of them managers she reports to at the end of the day. Making it as easy as possible to get an answer is more of a consulting skill than working for a specific manager.
28:33 – Exercising Assertive Brevity* Were the information summary and synthesis skills something Abby began to implement intentionally in her work, or did they naturally become part of her communication workflow? + Abby thinks this may be a byproduct of her personality and situations she has been in over the years. + She has been in a number of situations where it was important to be assertive but brief. + “Learning how to condense your thoughts and articulate what’s most important I think is a really important skill.” – Abby Clobridge + In the news world 20 years ago, Abby was often one of the youngest people in the room. Listen to her describe the atmosphere in the daily news meetings and the importance of being assertive. + “So you couldn’t talk for an extended period of time, and you needed to learn how to jump in, say something, and then let other people react to it or move on. I think I was just watching that and absorbing that around me…. You had to be assertive and you had to say something and you had to get your point across quickly.” – Abby Clobridge, describing the need to speak up but be brief while working in the news industry + It was similar to the above during school when she attended classes and worked in small groups (the need to speak up). + Abby has been the only woman in various situations over the course of her career but says the gender imbalance is not as bad as it once was. + Being assertive means not waiting to be asked about your opinion, and if you have something to contribute to a conversation, take the initiative to speak your mind and share our opinion / thoughts. + “Frequently the loudest voice in the room is what wins out, so learning how to inject your point of view quickly…I think that’s important.” – Abby Clobridge + John uses the analogy of having someone in the room who is in charge of cooking the meal. You are in charge of making the ingredients you have available to that person. - “It’s their choice whether they incorporate your ingredients or not, but if you withhold your ingredients, then you’re not serving the greater good.” – John White - If we further the analogy, the chef doesn’t know certain ingredients are out there unless you tell them. + What’s Abby’s advice for women to be more assertive despite the gender imbalances? - Abby says you need to get comfortable with it. - The tech industry has changed in the last few years. Abby cites fewer times during a given week or month when she is the only woman in a conversation, but there are still times when it happens. - Abby feels it is important to develop a thick skin. You can learn how to be that person on the call with a different background from others. - “Have confidence in yourself, and be comfortable that what you’re bringing to the conversation is valuable. And if you have something to add, you should add it.” – Abby Clobridge, advice for other women to be more assertive + John says this is also a leadership lesson for the chef in the room. - Make sure to get opinions from everyone who can offer them on a topic. Just because certain people are more likely to speak up in conversations, it does not mean they don’t have valuable opinions to add. - It’s good to have people with different perspectives, opinions, and ideas. - “It’s important to ask. As a leader, I completely agree with that. You have to be asking for other people’s opinions and not just encouraging the loudest voice in the room to speak. And you Need to make sure that people are invited to the conversation…. It’s a skill, and it takes time. And it takes getting comfortable in your own skin sometimes to do.” – Abby Clobridge, on advice for leaders - The above extends beyond an organization’s boundaries. There are conferences that take place without diversity of panelists. We’re missing opportunities. - It’s been statistically proven how important diversity of thought, background, and opinion can help an organization thrive. John says a lack of diversity could result in poor strategy because everyone has the same blind spots. - Abby suggests asking as a leader how things could be done differently or what we might be missing when trying to make a decision. Different opinions about optimization of processes and procedures is extremely valuable.
36:21 – Leading Digital Initiatives and Walled Gardens* Around the time Abby was getting married, she decided to look for a different job. She wanted to get into academia and took a role at Bucknell University. + “All of the jobs I had most of my career really were pretty far outside of traditional library work.” – Abby Clobridge + Abby was charged with building a new digital initiatives program from scratch. - As an example she worked with the art department (which had a museum on campus) to determine the best way to create a digital version of artwork. - Aby found herself once again between the people who were developing the database to store information, the people who wanted to present the art collection to the public, and other stakeholders who wanted to use the collection for teaching purposes. - Abby had to think through the metadata needed for all of these requests and create an interoperable metadata schema. The schema would need to be used internally but also with other systems externally. - Abby worked on projects in this space for 5-7 years and covered many areas – art, history, and even civil engineering. She loved the variety in the kinds of work she was doing. + Did being in the middle mean Abby owned the deliverables, or was it more co-owned with stakeholders and technology personnel? - The team selected a platform for many of the collections. The art collection had some internally built enhancements on top of the platform. - “I didn’t feel responsible for the end product that was being built, but I felt responsible for making sure that the outcome was something that was going to be useful, usable, met everybody’s needs, met the requirements we had articulated, met the requirements we hadn’t quite thought of, and that there was something at the end of the day that was completely useful in a meaningful kind of way for everybody and could be sustainable and scalable. That was my responsibility…figuring out what was that path to get there and making sure that there was going to be something in place that 5 years later would still be functional.” – Abby Clobridge * John says Abby started her career at a time when things were all walled gardens. In the academia position she was trying to share the information with the world (breaking down the walled garden). + Initially, Abby and team had to figure out sharing what needed to be shared inside the university. Then they looked at the value of sharing it more broadly, and there was not value in sharing everything more broadly. + Part of this was getting everyone comfortable with sharing this data. Not everyone was. + They had to think about the licensing and copyright implications of buying slide libraries compared to buying the same images (or renting them). This came into play in discussions on sharing things internally compared to also sharing externally. + They considered making searches interoperable with collections from other universities. + Abby spent a lot of time walking the line between open access and closed access. + Parts of the art gallery collection were designed to be publicly accessible, but there was metadata that did not need to be accessible to the public like insurance values, appraisal information, etc. + Open access and making the results of research publicly accessible (free to access / read / download) was new in the early 2000s. This was one of the big projects Abby worked on when she became a consultant. - Open access is something Abby is very interested in and remains passionate about. It’s not as much of a concentrated focus for her right now in her work, but it is interesting to see how much has changed in the last 10-20 years. * It feels like Abby took the experience as an information architect and layered on things like compliance, data governance and privacy, and even cybersecurity. Did she feel like this was a specialization? + Abby does not think she has a specialization, feeling she knows a little bit about a lot of things that go together. + The communication piece is a critical part of this. Abby gives the example of being in the same room with lawyers concerned about copyright, those who built a product’s functionality, risk management…and even executives (who need to understand benefits and risk involved). + “It’s being able to serve as the middle person in a conversation…it’s all really closely connected, but you have to be thinking about that when you’re designing something and you’re trying to disseminate information and data and knowledge and how is this going to be used…and trying to strike a balance…. It can be an interesting space because it’s not the same for two organizations….” – Abby Clobridge + Abby gives the examples of 3 different organizations her company has worked with, each looking at things from a different viewpoint. - “What is it that we’re trying to protect, and what is it that we’re trying to disseminate? And how are people going to use what we’re sharing and what we’re producing, and how do we figure out what’s the right way to do this for that organization? And yeah, risk absolutely comes up, and governance comes up. And trying to manage all of this is really interesting.” – Abby Clobridge
Mentioned in the Outro* The idea of telling stories with data sounds a lot like what a security engineer has to do. It reminded Nick of Episode 240 – Nurturing Cybersecurity Talent Development with Kenneth Ellington (2/2) with and the mention of the capstone presentation students had to complete as part of a cybersecurity training program. * Maybe you’ve heard about the concept of just in time, just enough access (or JITJEA). Abby had to deliver just in time, just enough information to people calling her at the news station. * Brevity in communication is very important when communicating with leaders. Sean Tolram learned that a few meaningful sentences could make more of an impact than hundreds of pages of reports. Check out these episodes for more details on that: + Episode 265 – Interview and Collaborate: Fostering Human Connection with Sean Tolram (1/2) – start near the end of the episode in the section on communicating results + Episode 266 – Stress Response: The Business Impact of Mindfulness with Sean Tolram (2/2) * Evan Oldford spoke about sending a brief daily report to his management to help them understand what was happening but that was short enough to read in the Starbucks coffee line. + Check out Episode 172 – Ease the Mind through Daily Reporting with Evan Oldford (1/2)
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
For job seekers out there, are you getting ghosted by potential employers even after asking for a status update? Is it possible that the impact of tech industry layoffs on the current job market might explain some of this, or are we observing a lack of leadership and communication?
This week in episode 291, we continue a focused discussion on layoffs with Liz Bronson and Kat Nelson Troyer from Real Job Talk. Liz and Kat will share perspectives on the current job market, thoughts on the connection between employee experience and job candidate experience, how we can all be better stewards of the collective community, and advice for leaders during challenging times like reductions in force (RIFs) / layoffs. Check out the show notes for a number of resources to help you navigate.
And if you missed part 1 of our discussion with Liz and Kat, check out Episode 290.
Original Recording Date: 08-13-2024
Topics – Current State of the Job Market, Employee Experience and Responsiveness, Advice for Executive Leaders, Encouragement for Leaders Executing Layoffs, Closing Thoughts and Real Job Talk Resources2:59 – Current State of the Job Market* Do we think the job market will calm itself even if the rightsizing exercises continue? + Liz is consistently speaking with a lot of job seekers, recruiters, and many others. + There are many disgruntled employees and a lot of people looking for jobs. + Jobs are being opened across different platforms and getting thousands of applicants. Many of the applicants are not qualified. + If there were 3000 applicants for a job, no one has time to go through them. There is a lot of ghosting happening right now. - Liz spoke to someone who had done 3 rounds of interviews. One of the rounds was in-person, 7 hours, and they never heard back. - This kind of thing is not an anomaly and seems to be happening all over the place. + In Liz’s opinion in times of recession / leading up to them you start to see recruiters get cut because hiring has stopped. - When many recruiters are out of work, it floods the market. If companies are hiring, the teams doing it are very lean and short staffed. - Different tools popped up that post jobs in many different places, and openings are circulated amongst networking groups as well. - With thousands of applicants, recruiters end up overworked and unable to get back to people. - There might be AI tools in use, but they may not be tuned / refined to actually be effective. - In recruiting programs that are well run, Liz says a recruiter would not have more than about 10 jobs on their plate. Liz is hearing about recruiters who have 50 jobs on their plate, which they cannot do well. Recruiters are doing the best they can right now. - Hiring managers are also overwhelmed and may be unable to get back to candidates, especially those who might only get one new job requisition for an already short-staffed team. They might not have time to hire effectively. - “We’re just in this weird spot…. The process has just gotten out of control, and job seekers are feeling it and getting more frustrated. Our tools and our people and our processes haven’t kept up with the times.” – Liz Bronson, on the job market and hiring processes - There were a lot of openings for recruiters at the end of 2023, which is usually a good sign that the economy is coming back. Any recruiter who was hired near the end of 2023 is still ramping up as of this recording. + Right now the best way to get a job is through a referral. + Liz shares a story about someone who contacted a hiring manager who said there were 3000 applicants for an open position and 600 direct messages to the hiring manager on LinkedIn about the role. - The hiring manager shared there was no way to get back to everyone. - “Think about that. When I’m sitting there…e-mailing CEOs or Chief People Officers…they’re probably getting 400, 500 e-mails just like mine. So I have to figure out another way. That’s just a little glimpse into what is going on, at least for people I’ve been talking to. Most applications you don’t even get a rejection these days.” – Liz Bronson, on the current job market * All of this is linked to company reputation. John doesn’t feel like we as a society hold organizations accountable enough for the applicant experience. + Many times applicant experience is something we are expected to judge differently than employee experience instead of looking at applicant experience as the beginning of employee experience. + Not getting back to people and employees being overworked is an indicator of what life at an organization could be like for a potential employee. + “In my view…employee experience starts at the application, and it ends when you’re in the alumni network. And you have to think it through. And when times are good and money’s flowing, you see investment in the employee experience. When it’s hard to get good people, all of a sudden you see an investment in the application, in the recruiting process. When it’s not as hard, all that goes away because you’re trying to do more with less and all the things.” – Liz Bronson + We might see some posts on Glassdoor or Reddit about poor candidate experience. + A recruiter could have anywhere between 50 and 100 candidates on their plate at a time, and we do have to be mindful of this. But when recruiters stop responding after a candidate has followed up multiple times, Liz says this is when it starts to impact employee experience. - Even if the answer is no (i.e. the candidate will not move forward), it is better than no response. - Liz hears stories from people daily about getting no response / being completely ignored as a job candidate. + The process becomes really challenging for candidates when the communication we would expect to be there isn’t there, especially if you’ve had an in-person interview and get no response. - Kat says as much as possible try not to take this personally because it is likely you are not the only one getting ghosted.
10:10 – Employee Experience and Responsiveness* John says the applicant experience is the beginning of employee experience. It’s not necessarily a front-line manager problem but a global leadership issue for companies that can present reputational risk if not handled properly. What are some of those lessons leaders need to learn in this area? + Kat says people really are bogged down with work right now and might have more on their plate than they can handle. But, there are also people who tend to ghost others regardless of how busy they are. + One of Kat’s values is good communication. Knowing someone tends to ghost people would likely make her not want to pursue an opportunity with that person. + “Uncomfortable conversations are never fun, but I sure respect people who are willing to have them…as opposed to just ghosting.” – Kat Nelson Troyer + John mentions we have Glassdoor but that it lacks granularity down to the recruiter or hiring manager level (i.e. this person never responded after polite follow-ups). + Just as we need worry time on our calendar, Liz says we need to schedule time to be good community citizens and communicate. Even for the overburdened hiring manager or recruiter, it could be as simple as copying and pasting the same update to candidates. + All of us will be job seekers at some point. Liz suggests we can make the world a better place by being responsive to others in our professional network who ask for help in their job search or might have applied at the company where we work. It takes very little time to do this for others. + “And then if we all do that for each other and we all put an hour a week on our calendar to be a good community member, that will feel a lot better I think than ignoring folks that want some help. And it will give us the good energy when we need it next time. At least that’s the hope.” – Liz Bronson
13:32 – Advice for Executive Leaders* How can the executive leader who had to make the decision to make cuts instill hope for the new company after a rightsizing exercise? How can they make cuts without demoralizing staff? + Kat says hopefully the leader in question has a god strategy and has done as deep a cut as is necessary. It’s very hard on teams to see multiple instances of layoffs over short periods of time. + Kat advises leaders to do a deep cut so they only have to manage the process once. + “It’s all about communication – expressing gratitude for the team members that left, and also this is the new team and you’re here for a reason…and acknowledging that it’s going to be different…. I think that good leaders are good communicators and are able to communicate what they need to communicate with empathy. Those are the ones that I see people be loyal with.” – Kat Nelson Troyer + Liz suggests planning for a mourning period and says, “part of planning a RIF is planning the repair.” - Leaders should plan their communications and should have an action plan for moving forward. This includes highlighting priority areas, being transparent, and not shying away from difficult conversations. - “It will be an elephant in the room unless you show the elephant the door. And the door is the path moving forward.” – Liz Bronson, on advice for executive leaders after a layoff + Kat emphasizes transparency as well, and unless there is some kind of liability, leaders should share the reasoning behind their strategy. - When we understand the reasoning behind a strategy it is easier to support it. - When we feel like someone is being transparent with us, it builds trust. - “It’s hard for leaders in this kind of situation…. It’s never fun to have to navigate reduction in forces.” – Kat Nelson Troyer
17:05 – Encouragement for Leaders Executing Layoffs* For the leaders who have had to execute layoffs once or more than once, what advice do we have for them to continue on being a leader? + Leaders have to take care of themselves because at the end of the day, we’re all people. These are hard situations. + “As a leader the day of a RIF, it’s hard. And you can’t be in your feelings because you’ve got to be there for your team and for others. But you also go home, and you have to take care of yourself. Because you have to show up as that transparent, open, honest, focused person who is positive and not Pollyanna positive…. Own it. It’s hard, but you have to be that person that we’re talking about. And then you have to make sure you’re taking care of yourself so you’re not burning yourself out so you can be strong enough to do the work.” – Liz Bronson, on advice for leaders + John says it’s difficult to have empathy for top level leaders in an organization. It might feel like they are not being held accountable. For those of us who operate at the individual contributor level or close to the bottom of an organization, our empathy is probably more for the individuals who have to carry out the execution of actions like layoffs (i.e. front-line managers, HR personnel, etc.). + “Each of us can think of that great leader that handled it well…. There are ways to do it, and we can all thing of leaders who have led well through hard times and change. And we can also think of the ones who closed their office door and hid.” – Liz Bronson, on leadership through difficult times + Liz mentions a 2022 letter written by the CEO of Stripe as an example of what good leadership in these situations looks like. - Stripe treated their people well despite the difficult situation, and Liz mentioned there were many people who were full of gratitude for how they were treated. + Kat suggests if you are a leader who has to deal with something like this, it would be a great time to reach out to your personal board of advisors. Think through the strategy before executing. + John says when you’re involved in a RIF, you suddenly realize all the steps you haven’t taken to build your network, to keep in touch with people, etc. - The people leader who has to execute a reduction in force or RIF may come to the realization that they don’t have a board of advisors setup to help them navigate this situation and the path forward in the most humane way possible. - Liz says leaders who need help and take on the personal responsibility of doing this right can reach out to HR personnel for guidance, get a coach like Kat, or invest time in learning from anyone around them who can help. - “Leaders have to take ownership at their level, and that makes sense. And part of that is owning the fact that maybe you weren’t ready to do this and don’t know exactly how to handle it. It’s not every first or second line manager that’s had to manage through a RIF.” – John White - Liz says managers should reach out to HR as soon as they find out they will be involved in layoffs / RIFs. HR teams should be able to provide coaching. Make sure you have the training you need.
22:39 – Closing Thoughts and Real Job Talk Resources* “If a RIF happens to you, it may feel like the end of the world at that moment, but you are going to get through it. And so, take time to process your emotions, and then get started on figuring out what your next step is going to be.” – Kat Nelson Troyer + Be sure to check out the Resources Page of the Real Job Talk website. + The Must Have List is one of the top items listed on this page, and it’s a great process to go through to help us get some clarity. + Kat says the Must Have List is really the 2nd step in the envisioning process. She asks her clients to think big and to write their ideal job description (part of something called the ideal job process). The output from this is used to build the Must Have List. + There are several episodes about navigating interviews, job offers, and other challenging situations at work on the Real Job Talk website. + Be sure to subscribe to Real Job Talk! * Liz has learned we can only control ourselves. + “The best hedge against a RIF is doing your best. After that, it’s not in your hands…. Think about and focus on the things you can control…. You cannot control your company’s future single handedly. So try not to sit there and worry and focus on moving yourself, your group, your team forward. That’s the best thing you can do.” – Liz Bronson + Things you can control: - Have a plan. - Have a resume that is up to date. - Ask people for recommendations on LinkedIn.
Mentioned in the Outro* If you want to become a people leader someday, be mindful of the fact that you may have to execute a layoff as part of your role. * More resources from Real Job Talk:
+ Surviving a Layoff
+ Starting Your New Job Search
+ Resources page with Must Have List template
+ Subscribe to Real Job Talk
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If you’re looking for more advice related to layoffs, check out:
- Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2)
- Episode 268 – Ownership through Failures: An Entrepreneur’s Take on Difficult Decisions with Erik Gross (2/3)
- Episode 280 – Life after Layoff: A Leader’s Sense of Duty and A Series of Good Conversations with Marni Coffey (3/3)
- Also check out the discussion of the most valuable knowledge framework with Erik Gross.
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If you’re searching for a job right now, check out these episodes:
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Revisiting the Foundations of Resumes
- Revisiting the Foundations of the Job Search
- Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 1
- Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 2
- Episode 164 – Secrets of a LinkedIn Expert with Louise Bunyan
- For more episodes with the layoff tag on our site, check out this list.
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If you’ve been impacted by a layoff, reach out to Al and Leanne Elliott, hosts of the Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture Podcast for a coaching session.
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Book a call with Al and Leanne here.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Are layoffs in the tech industry a trend that will continue? What can IT workers do about it? Whether you’ve been impacted by a layoff event, lost colleagues in a layoff, or have just been watching from afar…this episode is part of a focused discussion on layoffs meant to encourage and advise all of us.
This week in episode 290 we’re joined by Kat Nelson Troyer and Liz Bronson, the hosts of Real Job Talk, who bring a perspective on this topic from Human Resources, Recruitment, and Career Coaching. You’ll get to hear their take on the layoff trend with advice for those who have been impacted by a layoff and those who have lost colleagues in a layoff with some leadership advice sprinkled in along the way.
Original Recording Date: 08-13-2024
Topics – Introducing the Hosts of Real Job Talk, A Focused Discussion on Layoffs, Thoughts on Layoff Trends in Tech, Losing Colleagues, If You’ve Been Laid Off, Must Haves vs. Preferences2:24 – Introducing the Hosts of Real Job Talk* This week we have two guests who happen to be the co-hosts of Real Job Talk, a podcast sharing practical advice for mid-career professionals. * Liz Bronson is an HR Leader currently in transition, looking for her next opportunity. + Liz has spent a number of years in HR (Human Resources) and recruiting roles. Her experience spans different startups, working at VMware for around 9 years, and running her own consulting firm. + Liz likes to focus on employee experience and making places a great place to work. + Her most recent roles were VP of People at SupportLogic and working at ThriveCart. * Kat Nelson Troyer is an HR Consultant, leadership coach, and career coach. + Kat started years ago as a recruiter and worked her way through HR (Human Resources). She first met Liz 20 years ago. They worked together as part of a recruiting team and have stayed friends ever since. * About 6 years ago, Liz and Kat started the Real Job Talk Podcast. Kat says it was Liz’s idea but a very good one. + On Real Job Talk, Kat and Liz discuss topics like recruiting, job searching, navigating work transitions / work challenges, and have the occasional live coaching session. These topics are all to serve the mid-career professional.
4:35 – A Focused Discussion on Layoffs* We wanted to have a focused discussion on this trend of layoffs we’re seeing in the tech industry. John and Nick have their own perspectives on the topic, but this week we want to get perspective from Kat and Liz and their collective experience. * Our overall structure is to have a discussion about how layoffs are impacting different personas: + Initial thoughts on the layoff trend in our industry + Advice for those who are seeing layoffs at other companies + Advice for those who have lost colleagues in a layoff + Advice for people impacted by a layoff + Advice for leaders who make decisions to do a layoff at their company + Advice for leaders who have to execute the layoff events
6:18 – Thoughts on Layoff Trends in Tech* Kat + Kat is seeing layoffs more so in the tech industry but also across other industries. She is most experienced navigating layoffs in tech. + When layoffs are deemed necessary by executive leaders at a company, it creates challenges for Human Resources and to company culture. - How do you do this with empathy, and how do you make the decisions around who will be impacted? - How do you navigate employee morale after a layoff event? + Kat has seen companies do the above really well and others stumble with it. She tries to look at those stumbles as opportunities for learning. * Liz + There are many different pieces to consider when running the project of a layoff (which Liz has had to do over the course of her career). Liz has had to lay off friends, colleagues, and even people she hired. + “Does this ever get easier? …No. And it shouldn’t. And if it does check yourself before you wreck yourself. As HR people, we hate letting people go, especially as part of a RIF because we know it’s a surprise…. The best thing we can do as the company is to try to treat people with dignity and respect and try to help them as much as humanly possible.” – Liz Bronson, on the difficulty in executing layoffs - Note that RIF stands for Reduction in Force (another term used for a layoff event). + HR departments might help personnel impacted by a layoff with some type of placement service, resume review, coaching, making sure people have the necessary paperwork, etc. Liz tells us HR personnel must also understand the legality of the situation. All of this takes an emotional toll on people. + “From a leadership perspective, empathy is huge. Transparency is huger…. Leadership is hard. Hard decisions are hard, and you have to own them and get in the trenches and show some real gratitude for the people that have been with you on your journey and do everything you can to help them on their way.” – Liz Bronson + Line managers and people who remain have to pull up the culture and be realistic. Focus on how to move the company forward. While the forward-facing view is important, don’t pretend the layoffs didn’t happen. * John says people are concerned and unsure if this is only a trend, just a reassignment of labor, or something that will never end. + Liz says there are cycles, and those who have been in industry for a while have seen these. There are cutbacks and then there is a push to hire. + Things end up changing in our industry. Public cloud changed the landscape, and now AI is changing things as well. There has been a scaling back of investments. + Liz shares a story from the time of the dot-com bubble as an illustration. - She was a teacher and in her early 20s at that time and had peers with VP titles. When Liz asked how her friends made money, they said it was through advertising. When she asked if there was enough advertising for everyone to make money, they didn’t have a comment. - It turns out there was not enough advertising to go around, and thus the bubble burst. - This was a time of big change in the industry. Things got huge and expanded, and then there was a rightsizing exercise. This cycle has happened time and time again. + None of us know exactly what will happen with our company, and the days of working for 30 years at a company, for example, are over. As employees we can: - Pay attention to the company’s financial health / overall organizational health. Ask questions. - Understand if the company you work for is hitting its sales and marketing goals. - Is the company built on a single product? Where is the technology for it going? - “We’ve got to be taking care of ourselves while working hard and taking care of our company. We don’t have entitlement, and we have to be aware of what’s around us.” – Liz Bronson - Liz thinks 2022 to present has been a rightsizing based on market shifts. But, this has happened before. * Kat says in the technology industry, you have to take control of your professional development. + It is extremely important to keep up in a fast-moving industry and to specialize. + Stay in touch with people you have strong relationships with, including those you have worked with in the past. + Your professional network is so important. Kat would advise those new to the tech industry to stay in touch with the people they admire and have a good connection with. It’s about more than just connecting on LinkedIn, but the connection on LinkedIn can be a starting point. + Kat mentions she and Liz know people who use spreadsheets to keep in contact with important people, and it works really well. We can all have a system that helps us stay in touch with people in our professional network, whatever that looks like. + "I think it’s all about knowing what you want and making sure you stay in touch with the people you want to stay in touch with and growing with the people who have values that are aligned with you. Those are going to be people that are going to be a good fit to work with you in the future. " – Kat Nelson Troyer + Kat stresses the importance of knowing yourself throughout your career process, keeping your skills up to date, and keeping relationships strong. - Be clear on what your value proposition is and what you bring to the table. + This is a cyclical pattern in tech. When companies like startups get a new round of funding or try to launch a new product, for example, often times they will over hire and later have to readjust. Kat feels this readjustment is what has been happening recently in our industry. + It’s challenging to be laid off for sure. It can also be challenging to be someone who was not laid off and is left with 1/2 or 1/3 of the team. This increases workload for employees who stayed and can impact morale. Strong leadership is necessary as part of moving forward. + Liz talks to a lot of people with survivor’s guilt, and she has felt it as well. - This is where leadership, empathy, and transparency come into play. + When COVID happened, a lot of people had to figure out work from home and whether it worked for them / their company. There was a lot of over hiring that happened due to the uncertainty and businesses booming. Liz tells us there’s a bit of a rightsizing exercise for some companies as a result of the above. + When we see the rightsizing across the industry, whether it’s from afar or up close, we might be impacted or worry that it will eventually impact us. Much of it is out of our control, but we can be proactive in the things we do that are within our control (skilling up, making sure things are up to date, knowing our values, etc.). - Liz would add this is in the spirit of making sure your company needs you / what you have to offer. + When we are in a position where we stayed and had colleagues impacted by a layoff, we can help by elevating their profile on LinkedIn, for example, while they navigate a job search.
16:59 – Losing Colleagues* If you are someone working at a company that has done layoffs, you may have lost a colleague (a teammate, a boss, etc.). How is the psychological impact different based on whether you’ve lost a teammate compared to losing your boss, for example? + One big challenge is when you’re in the know before a layoff happens (i.e. when managers / HR / other leaders know in advance what is coming and who will be impacted). Confidential information has to be kept that way throughout the process. + Liz says there is usually a cross functional team involved in executing a layoff, and it stinks being on that team. + “The most challenging days of my career are days when I’ve been part of a layoff team.” – Kat Nelson Troyer + There have been instances in our industry where managers did not know layoffs were happening and someone made decisions at the executive level. + “I go back to what we were saying before though. It’s about transparency. It’s about moving forward. It’s about working together. It’s about repair. And you just have to be aware of what you’re doing to repair your team or your part of the company or your entire organization if you’re at the top. It’s about repair and moving forward…. And you can feel the feelings. Anyone who doesn’t let people acknowledge that it stinks, and anyone who doesn’t make a plan for their team for moving the work forward with half the people and figuring out together what stays, what goes, what can we push off…” – Liz Bronson + If your team was cut down from 5 people to 3, the reality is some projects will need to be lowered in priority or taken off the team’s plate. + One way to stand out as an individual contributor during these times is to be part of the solution. Be willing to take on / pick up some of the projects in flight so the team can move forward and be successful. + The psychological impact of losing a specific colleague may depend on your relationship with the colleague. - There is likely more uncertainty if you lose your boss compared to a teammate. - Kat has seen losing a boss go different ways. Some folks are devastated and will be inclined to follow their former boss to a new company if there are opportunities. Getting a new manager even through a situation like this could also end up being a better fit for the team who lost their manager. - Kat would encourage us to try (even though it is very hard) to wrangle our mindsets to see the positives in the situation. It’s so much easier said than done.
21:42 – If You’ve Been Laid Off* What can the person who was impacted by a layoff do? What advice do we have for them to move forward? + Kat - Take time to gather yourself, and update your resume. - On Real Job Talk, Kat and Liz talk about the importance of having a personal board of advisors made up of * People who know you very well * People you respect * People you would turn to in times of career transition or times of navigating a challenging time at work - Make sure your personal board of advisors know what happened. Ask them for advice and to make introductions for you. - When looking for work, it really is a full-time job. Make sure you approach it that way! - Kat mentions they also talk about creating a Must Have List before you update your resume. Get clear on what you must have in order to either make a move from your current role or accept a new role. The list will be what you need to make a move that is a good fit. * Think beyond just salary and compensation package. Go back through your career and make some notes. * What kind of environment will I be working in? * What type of manager do I need / want? Think back on the good managers you’ve had and what made them great. * Values go into this as well. * Download the Must Have List Template from Real Job Talk here. - There’s a mindset piece and the tactical steps you need to take to get the new role. * I always say every e-mail, every interview, every conversation makes you one step closer to the offer." – Kat Nelson Troyer * Sometimes jobs come to us quickly, and sometimes it takes longer. The challenge is staying patient and firm in what you know you need to make the move. * “Of course, it’s a lot more comfortable when we’re employed, when we have a role, to be looking for another job. But when we’re all of a sudden out of work unexpectedly, that’s where we need to push ourselves even more to take the steps that we need to take and to have the conversations…” – Kat Nelson Troyer * John asks about the mindset piece here and reflects on being caught in the 12,000 person Google Cloud layoff in 2023. Maybe there’s a certain process we need to allow ourselves to go through? + You can hear the full story from John’s perspective in Episode 202: John Got Fired. + “It’s not personal except it is personal to you because you all the sudden are doing a job search. So it’s 100% personal even though the decision may not be personal.” – Liz Bronson + Liz had not really done a job search until last year and is now doing her 2nd job search within a year. When people ask Liz what she does, she tells them “I scream vulnerably into the wind all day.” + Liz says searching for a job is hard after you’ve been impacted by a layoff. She encourages others to take breaks as needed. + Right now the job market is a little weird. Liz talks to a lot of job seekers. + Each day the job seeker should do their best while being outside their comfort zone. + “I’ve learned more in this last year of hard than I’ve learned in any other year of my career. I’m grateful for my learning, and I can’t wait to see what’s next.” – Liz Bronson, reflecting on a job she took despite some red flags + Liz has had 2 jobs eliminated. After one of these she was angry (especially after not being treated well), and she had a right to feel that way. + Liz came to realize being angry wasn’t helping her and that she needed to get past it. But in order to do that, she had to be mad for a few weeks. + With the job market being pretty tough right now, we need to remain open to doing different things. Remain open with a critical eye based on your must have list. + Do things that bring you joy, and find your gratitude. Liz gets to exercise at times other than early morning without disrupting a set schedule, and she volunteers at Dress for Success. Liz has been able to spend more time with her kids this summer and is studying for a certification. + Liz loves to help people and will talk to anyone. She participates in HR leader communities and startup expert communities and would encourage listeners to find communities to join and meet others in the industry. + “I’ve built such a better network this year and had great conversations and helped people get unstuck, which is what I love to do, so it brings me the joy that I get in my job. And you just have to make sure that you’re doing things in your day besides screaming vulnerably into the wind because that part’s rough.” – Liz Bronson + John says this sounds like experiencing your feelings is fine, but you can’t let them be a barrier to moving forward. - Liz would agree. When people stay angry and bitter, that is how they are showing up in an interview, even if they don’t realize it. - We’re speaking from a place of privilege, and it can be very scary when your bank account gets low. - Liz’s advice for people in this situation is figure out what you have to do to (drive for Uber / Lyft or something else part time if needed) to show up positively for jobs you want to get. Leading with fear and anger won’t land us our next job. - John says if you’re feeling those feelings 90% of your day, it would be hard to do an interview and not have those feelings show up. Liz says this might mean examples come across in the negative when you’re interviewed. - We can’t stuff the feelings down and not address them. We can talk to friends / our board of advisors or work them out at the gym. We have to work through the feelings and get past them to move forward. + Kat heard someone suggest scheduling time to worry into your calendar. Maybe you give yourself 20 minutes every other day, and when you want to worry you know when it’s supposed to happen. - If we spend too much / all of our time ruminating on all the things we are worried about it will also show up in job interviews. The rumination can turn into stress and will come out in conversation with others. - John has scheduled time for working on specific projects and makes notes so he knows what to work on during that time. If we schedule time to worry, we can add intrusive thoughts to the worry list when they happen. Maybe we can use this to worry less during the times we’re not supposed to worry. - If it’s a public calendar you’re using, you might not want to label it as worry time. Choose a different label for the block of time in that case. - Maybe if we schedule time to worry it will end up cutting down overall worry time? - Nick references Why Smart Kids Worry and the concept of clearing your brain plate. Scheduling time to worry seems like a way to do this. Journaling could be a way to get your thoughts out as well.
32:49 – Must Haves vs. Preferences* If I really need a job, does my must have list naturally change? + Liz says there is must have right now and must have long term. There are also must haves and nice to haves. + For example, Liz needs to worry remotely or somewhere in office. She cannot relocate for a job. That’s a must have. - She could work in an office 3 days per week or maybe even 5 as long as it’s in Austin, but Liz would prefer a hybrid or work from home situation. - Five days per week in an office could work if other things aligned with the must have list. - Liz could also travel if needed maybe 25% of the time but not 90% of the time. + Preferences and nice to haves are different than the must haves. Look at what you absolutely need. + Liz shares the story of a past career coaching client as an illustration. This person had taken what she thought was the dream job but had a new baby and a 2-hour commute each way. This person realized part of the must have list was being closer to home. + “The musts are the things that you can’t compromise on, and then other things can ebb and flow as needs arise or don’t.” – Liz Bronson, on the must have list + John says there is some prioritization that we need to do as finances dwindle. Maybe we decide what to cut based on how urgent / dire our situation becomes. - John says certain things may be must haves except for a certain amount of money (which may be way more than you think anyone would ever pay you). - Kat says if you are considering any kind of relocation (even if not ideal), consider what you need to relocate.
Mentioned in the Outro* If you’re looking for more advice related to layoffs, check out:
+ Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2)
+ Episode 268 – Ownership through Failures: An Entrepreneur’s Take on Difficult Decisions with Erik Gross (2/3)
+ [Episode 280 – Life after Layoff: A Leader’s Sense of Duty and A Series of Good Conversations with Marni Coffey (3/3)](https://nerd-journey.com/life-after-layoff-a-leaders-sense-of-duty-and-a-series-of-good-conversations-with-marni-coffey-3-3/
+ Revisiting the Foundations of Resumes
+ Revisiting the Foundations of the Job Search
+ Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 1
+ Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 2
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More resources from Real Job Talk:
- Surviving a Layoff
- Starting Your New Job Search
- Resources page with Must Have List template
- Subscribe to Real Job Talk
-
If you’ve been impacted by a layoff, reach out to Al and Leanne Elliott, hosts of the Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture Podcast for a coaching session.
-
Book a call with Al and Leanne here.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
How often do you ask other people for feedback? Why are you asking for feedback in the first place, and what will you do with the feedback you receive? Dale McKay, our guest this week in episode 289, would remind us that the purpose of feedback is to make ourselves better, and we can articulate that purpose to other people when we ask them for honest feedback.
This week we talk through Dale’s experience as a technical instructor and consultant with undertones of mentorship sprinkled in along the way. You’ll hear Dale emphasize the importance of enhancing your personal brand and the importance of creating positive feedback loops in that process.
Original Recording Date: 07-10-2024
Dale McKay is currently a VMware consultant working with federal customers. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Dale, check out Episode 288.
Topics – An Interest in Mentorship, The Consultant’s Role, Personal Brand, Asking for and Processing Feedback, Feedback through Role Transitions, Closing Thoughts2:25 – An Interest in Mentorship* John highlights very few organizations have formal training or specific schools for different disciplines like the military does. Could that gap be where Dale’s interest in mentorship came from? + Dale says yes. + He worked for ATT back when they had a corporate training campus. They would send employees there for different trainings on both technical and soft skills. It was conducted by trainers who were ATT employees who were very effective instructors. - Dale doesn’t know of many other companies today who have that same concept where employees get weeks off to go and build skills in this way. + John remembers hearing stories about management training for GE personnel being almost like going to graduate school. We have replaced a lot of in-person training with computer-based training, and there seems to be a gap. + Dale was at one point a corporate trainer for Dell, and most of the courses he taught were 1 week in length. - “There’s an interaction that takes place inside the classroom in a face-to-face setting that you’re never going to be able to replicate with computer training.” – Dale McKay - The social aspects of what happen in and around the classroom setting can’t be replicated virtually. Dale highlights the side conversations we might have with folks in person or things like going to lunch or dinner with someone. * John refers to the above as the creation of a cohort, a unit that learns and works together. Maybe this is true for remote work vs. in office work too? * Dale would agree with this and mentions he has worked remotely for a lot of his career. But too much remote work can make you feel like you miss out on some of the camaraderie. * Dale gives the example of a particular team of people he worked with who planned to go to dinner and to see a movie premier together. * “We don’t have to necessarily like everybody that we work with, but we do have to work with them, so if you can do something with them that pulls both of you together, I think those are all good things. And that’s what we used to have in the classroom.” – Dale McKay * Reflecting back on week long training courses in the past, Dale feels attendees would walk out of that experience respecting one another and feeling it was a week well spent.
7:37 – The Consultant’s Role* Does a mentor have something to teach not so different from a classroom instructor? Nick thinks so, and Dale agrees. + John mentioned earlier that we cannot go to school and get a degree in consulting, for example. Dale has held a number of consulting roles during his career, including being a TAM (still a consulting type role). + “Consulting is what you make of it, and if you want to be that consultant that teaches as part of that consulting role, then I think most customers embrace that.” – Dale McKay + Dale gives an example of a teaching conversation he had with one of his customers about NSX and just how much the customer appreciated it. + Dale says we can forget that these teachable moments exist when we get into too much of a transactional nature. The time Dale spent with this customer was what that person needed at the time to fill gaps in understanding so they could work together to accomplish something. Dale shares this as an example of working within the guardrails a mentor provides. * It seems like a consultant is a gap filler who meets the person they are working with where they are, much like the instructor and the mentor would do. + Dale says that is a consistent theme throughout his career and something on which he prides himself. + “In every consulting case, people are paying money for you to help them with a problem. If you go in there and make it a very transactional thing…you’ve missed an opportunity for your company and for yourself to further both your company brand and your own brand. Stop for a minute, and don’t make it so transactional. Have a conversation…. Let them educate you for a little bit so that you in turn can take that knowledge and help them be better. At the end of the day, that’s what I think every consultant should have on their mind….leave the situation you came into better if it’s at all possible.” – Dale McKay - A consultant should take the time to learn about what the person they are helping wants to accomplish. + John thinks Dale is interpreting the role of a consultant as someone who can be a catalyst for change within the organization, which could be a small change or perhaps a large change. Maybe being a catalyst for change should be in the job description for a consultant? + Dale would lump being a Technical Account Manager into the consultant category. - Many people call themselves consultants. Some are very good, and some are just mediocre. - Exceling in consulting is really about a willingness to go the extra mile and a focus on having the customer feel like you’ve made them better. + Does being a consulting mean you have to do a ton of traveling? - Dale says we should expect some travel to be involved when working as a consultant. - Listen to the story Dale shares about finding a common interest with his customer because they had a conversation over lunch. That kind of thing is not written in a statement of work. - “If you allow yourself to play that role of a consultant, play that role of that gap filler, play that role of someone who is here just to make things better…then you’re going to have some of that interaction that’s going to further your brand.” – Dale McKay
13:26 – Personal Brand* The phrase personal brand should not be new to us. + If it is, check out other episodes from our catalogue discussing personal brand. + “That’s what a career journey is all about…establishing and enhancing your own personal brand.” – Dale McKay + If we leave places better than we found them, our personal brand goes up (kind of like a stock). + Dale thinks most companies are aware of people’s personal brand. + “Your personal brand might be great. It doesn’t always mean that you’re going to get the promotion. That also is not reason for you to give up on enhancing your personal brand…. Your personal brand is yours. You take that with you wherever you go.” – Dale McKay, on the nature of work in corporate America + When we choose to leave a company, we leave some sort of legacy behind. Was what was left behind a good legacy or a bad legacy? That’s the kind of question we need to consider when working to enhance our personal brand. + Dale says if personal brand is not important to us, then likely our career is not important to us. - John says these are connected (personal brand and career), and it is important for us to think about and understand that connection if we want to have a career. - We often have a me-centric view of the world and do not stop to think about how others might be perceiving us or the messages we could be giving off with our actions. For example, if you are extremely effective, are you perceived as extremely effective? Those are different things. - It may be as simple as whether you have a positive mindset or a negative mindset. + Nick says usually it is the people we work with who know what our personal brand is (co-workers, boss, etc.), and that is how the company knows what our brand is. - “Does your boss know your personal brand? Does your boss know what your ethos, what your foundation is?” – Dale McKay, on perceptions from others - Dale would encourage us to put ourselves in our boss’s shoes and think about how they perceive us. - Dale feels he would be perceived as responsive, factual, and always willing by his boss. These would be the foundational elements of his personal brand. + John says we can ask each other to articulate what we’re trying to put out as our personal brand. Then we can ask if other people are perceiving us as those things. If there is a gap, think about what can be done to bridge the gap.
24:54 – Asking for and Processing Feedback* While he worked for VMware, Dale had the chance to work with a coach through BetterUp for 3 consecutive years. + Each year when coaching sessions would begin, Dale’s coach (who was the same for all 3 years) would ask him to do a 360 evaluation. This involved sending a feedback form to his boss, people on his team, and even to customers he supported. + The most important thing during this process is for people who are giving the feedback to be honest. + This method is one of the best ways to understand how people perceive you, especially if you are trying to change how you’re perceived in certain areas. + Dale wonders if more organizations might benefit from implementing 360 degree evaluations. With annual reviews maybe becoming less common, there may be a gap in how we want to be perceived and how others perceive us. + “I think that’s where there’s a gap in how I want to be perceived and then how you perceive me because if we never have that conversation, I don’t know what the answer is.” – Dale McKay, on feedback + Nick says we don’t think to have those conversations very often because we make an assumption that others are perceiving us in a certain way. + The feedback in a 360 assessment could be anonymous. Dale says people would say things in that feedback that they would not or could not say to your face. But each time he went through one of these there would be a new piece of insight he would gain. + “You can’t fix what you don’t know is wrong. If you know something is wrong and you don’t fix it, that’s on you. If you don’t know that it’s wrong, then maybe that’s on someone else that they need to tell you. I’ve had mentors through my career that didn’t hesitate to tell me when I did something wrong. And while that may be perceived as harsh or any other word that we would want to assign…the reality is I was probably better off for that criticism or that correction.” – Dale McKay + Nick says there is ego involved, especially when you receive feedback that you are not doing something as well as you thought you were. + “You’re asking for somebody to evaluate your work, and it’s very difficult for us in our society to distinguish between evaluating our work and evaluating our person.” – John White, on the difficulty of removing ego when receiving feedback - We might hear a criticism of our work to say “you’re not a great person.” - Being able to take criticism without getting an attitude about it is something Dale feels he struggled with earlier in his career. - “Once I got past that and saw that most of the time the criticism I was receiving was not intended to be tearing down criticism but it was intended to be constructive criticism, then I could take that and use it to make myself better.” – Dale McKay, on accepting criticism - We should also consider the source of criticism because there is constructive criticism and destructive criticism. It is ok to reject destructive criticism, but it’s a big problem to reject constructive criticism. - Constructive criticism may provide us something we really need to work through, but the end goal is that it will make us better. We have to understand and interpret it, and then take action on it. + People managers like John get engagement surveys submitted anonymously by employees. John says it is an interesting process to get the results of that feedback and make a plan to get improvement. He is early into his career as a people manager and ok with having several areas in which to improve. + Dale emphasizes the criticality of asking others for feedback. We might think we are doing great, but it’s only our perception until we solicit feedback from others. * How should those of us not used to asking people to provide feedback approach the conversation? + If Dale was giving advice to a mentee, he would encourage them to go and solicit feedback. + “And that conversation may be as simple as…‘there’s a few areas I’m trying to improve on. I would really appreciate if you could just give me some feedback on this.’” – Dale McKay, on a suggested way to ask for feedback + We can use e-mail, a face-to-face conversation, or a phone call as mediums to ask others for feedback. + Dale suggests we be specific about what we want feedback on, emphasize the need for honesty, and give the person time to think about it (i.e. don’t make them answer on the spot). + We are going to feel vulnerable asking others for feedback, and there’s really no way around that part. + “You have to evaluate that feedback with a very unbiased view of yourself.” – Dale McKay
26:59 – Feedback through Role Transitions* Did Dale have to ask for feedback during functional and job role changes in his career like the one he made moving from Technical Account Manager (TAM) to working in Technical Marketing? These roles are functionally quite different but have some similarities. + The technical marketing role would require more 1-to-many interactions, requiring more public speaking and content creation (videos, presentation slides, blog articles, etc.). + Dale says it was a little bit of a natural shift to move into technical marketing, and he got plenty of feedback along the way. Not all of it felt great when it came at him, but after looking at it as unbiased as he could, Dale believes it made him better. - Nick suggests just as we would give someone time to formulate feedback for us, we should give ourselves time to process once we receive feedback. - Dale gives the example of creating a video and sending a request for feedback to his boss and greater team. Upon initial examination we might think others are being nitpicky if they suggest changing the color of a line or decreasing use of filler words, but Dale tells us to remember each bit of feedback is likely going to make what you are trying to produce better (whether it be a presentation or something else). + John says the things we want to improve might seem perfect if we are the only audience. We need to find out what other people see as needing to improve, especially when the audience for something we are creating will not be just us. - Dale was a bit surprised at getting so much feedback on some of the presentations or videos he created and thought were very good. He encourages us to step back from our work and let go of the emotion as we digest the feedback. - “It makes it more appealing to people other than you, which was the whole goal anyway.” – Dale McKay, on the value of receiving and incorporating feedback to make our work better - John says we have plenty of opportunities to create content that only we will see like a knowledge note about a process. Maybe we can learn to be more honest with ourselves when we revisit something we previously created. For example, can we still follow it? If not, maybe we needed feedback from others. + Dale says our understanding of a problem may not be accurate because we are not infallible. Validating our understanding is the same as getting feedback. + Annual reviews are just another way to provide feedback from sources outside ourselves.
32:14 – Closing Thoughts* The thing John is taking away from this conversation is positive feedback loops. There are so many ways we can get them – mentorship, coaching, peer reviews, etc. + “It’s uncomfortable to engage and solicit and uncomfortable to listen to, but it is really the only way that we improve.” – John White, on feedback * “Hopefully there are people out there who will listen to this and will take it to heart because at the end of the day, your personal brand, your career is all up to you…. This is yours. You’re the one that’s driving. Find that mentor that’s going to help you establish that set of guardrails, but you’re still the one that’s driving your own career. And you have to take responsibility for it no matter what point you are in your career. Even if you’re laid off…you have to take responsibility for keeping yourself on track, moving in the direction that you need to move.” – Dale McKay * To follow up with Dale on this conversation, contact him on LinkedIn here.
Mentioned in the Outro* John mentioned a consultant as being a catalyst for change within an organization. The consultant can be a catalyst for change in a specific person or even multiple people. It’s a result of the teachable moments. + You can do this kind of thing in a lot of roles and be a catalyst for change in other people. But we need to be mindful and look for these opportunities. Think more about the people you work with and what they need to get better. + This sounds a lot like what a technical lead should seek to do. For more on that topic, check out these episodes: - Episode 279 – Change Management: The Hardest Leap and Developing People with Marni Coffey (2/3) - Episode 286 – Succession Planning: Delegation Skills and Technical Ownership with Max Kanat-Alexander (2/3) * If the only feedback you’re getting is you are doing great / fine, Nick feels this is a red flag. It could mean… + The people you’re asking may not feel comfortable being completely honest with you. Perhaps you haven’t built enough rapport with them or they have not seen enough of your work to be able to give a good piece of feedback to you. Maybe we should seek to build better relationships with others before asking for feedback. + You haven’t been specific enough on the feedback you want. Are you seeking feedback on a behavior, an attitude, or on your work? - If it’s your work, do you want to know about your presentation contents / the slides you made, your energy level during a presentation’s delivery, how well you explained something, etc.? - Emphasize the intention of the feedback is to make you better through their honesty, and give people time to provide the feedback. + You may need to ask some different people who can give a different perspective / viewpoint. Maybe you’ve been asking the same people for feedback too often. + It would be so much better to receive some constructive criticism now compared to a year from now or 6 months from now so we can take action.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
What would the job description for a mentor look like? For Dale McKay, our guest this week in episode 288, mentoring is a passion area. In fact, Nick has been blessed to have Dale as his mentor for several years.
Today, Dale McKay is a VMware consultant working with federal customers. In this discussion Dale shares his Naval experience and tech industry origins, the transition to civilian life, and a number of thoughts on the mentor / mentee relationship.
Original Recording Date: 07-10-2024
Topics – Naval Service and Tech Beginnings, Adapting to Civilian Life, Structure of the Trades and Sharing Your Industry Experience, A Mentor’s Job Description, Advice for the Mentee2:08 – Naval Service and Tech Beginnings* Dale McKay is currently a VMware consultant working through a company called Kforce. This is a fairly new opportunity for Dale, and his security clearance aligns well to working with federal customers. + Dale mentioned the role has been great so far, and he really enjoys interacting with customers face to face. + In addition to a background and experience with VMware technologies (like NSX and others), Dale has a background in networking. * Dale grew up in Memphis, and his only path to college was through scholarship. He was a member of ROTC in high school, and since he did not get a scholarship, he enlisted in the Navy. * In the Navy, Dale was part of the advanced electronics program, and his entry into the service came before the personal computer (PC). + Dale went through around 15 months of training in advanced electronics which later became something he could lean on later in his career. + During the 5 years Dale was in the Navy, he was part of a submarine crew (what we might call the silent service). Dale built relationships during his Naval service that last even to this day (including mention of an upcoming reunion). + Reflecting on his time in the Navy, Dale feels it was a great place to start and afforded him more opportunity than he would have had if he had stayed in his hometown. * Upon enlisting in the Navy, did Dale get to choose his area of focus, or was it automatically assigned to him? + After signing up for the advanced electronics program intentionally, Dale did get to choose what he wanted to do after that but was told the Navy needed missile technicians. - Part of his studies while in the advanced electronics program would include the missile technician discipline based on the above. + Dale was able to get into the advanced electronics program after enlisting based on his ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) test cores. * After 5 years in the Navy, Dale feels like he struggled for the next couple of years much like many other veterans. But, he was given some opportunities based on the skills he gained during Naval service. * Dale’s first civilian job was a biomedical equipment field engineer. + He would go to hospitals and work on EKG equipment. + At that time, it was still acceptable to repair equipment in the field. Dale and others in the role needed to know how to repair and work with the electronic components of these devices n the field. + The industry later decided it was more efficient and cost optimal to send replacement EKG units to hospitals instead of trying to repair them in the field. + Dale feels the base understanding of electricity and electronics and has helped him grasp other technology concepts throughout his career. * Was the interest in electronics there before Dale enlisted in the Navy? Were there any other influences to the choice to focus on electronics? + Dale didn’t get a chance to work on personal computers before going into the Navy because they did not yet exist, but he did work on car stereos and thinks perhaps that is the source of the interest in electronics. + “I didn’t even know the word career at that point. I just knew that the Navy was going to pay me money and they were going to give me a skill, and that sounded pretty cool. And I got to travel.” – Dale McKay
10:55 – Adapting to Civilian Life* What are some of the challenges people don’t see when it comes to adapting to civilian life after military service? + “In the service, you are never your own master, and when you get out of the service you are your own master. So what kind of master are you going to be?” – Dale McKay + Dale feels like he struggled with the above a little bit after leaving the Navy, mentioning that he grew his hair and beard out as one example as a result of the freedom. + Dale mentions in our careers we hit a point where we wonder if the path we are on will serve us long term. - In this light, he says we can start to wonder if we should do things differently or have a different attitude. + Many people, after stepping out of the discipline of the Navy, decided they never wanted to be controlled again, for example. - Dale says he had his time of rebellion but recognized it was not going to be helpful to stay in that state long term, making changes to course correct. * This reminds John of conversations he’s had in other contexts where people have left a culture and then spending time defining themselves later in opposition of that culture. + John says people can exit a culture and decide to take lessons learned and relationships with them, moving forward without defining themselves in relation to what they left. + Dale says there’s another aspect here where people can decide not to move forward and would rather regress a little bit. This is where people can get into trouble. - There were not the number of programs to help veterans like there are today when Dale left the Navy. People had to figure out the transition on their own. - Dale cites being a part of numerous programs for veterans while working for VMware such as Skillbridge. This program would provide internship opportunities for veterans at different businesses, for example.
15:15 – Structure of the Trades and Sharing Your Industry Experience* John wonders what we’re doing for the youth of our country to help them develop the skills to work in roles at technology vendors (consultants, tech marketing, solution engineers, and other roles that are a bit more nuanced). There’s not a clear path into these roles through college, and it is somewhat hazy. + Maybe things like mentoring or some type of apprenticeship are options to get there, they are less structured than what we might see in the trades (the apprentice / journeyman / master model). + Dale recently read that many college age folks are choosing to pursue the trades instead of college. + Dale feels a lot of our youth’s way forward is to return to the trades. - The trades teach what we Dale might call hard skills. Someone with an electrician’s license or a good plumber can get work just about anywhere, for example. As long as someone has the demonstrated hard trade skill they are very employable. - A college diploma doesn’t necessarily guarantee someone a job like perhaps it once did. + Dale shares a mentoring story to illustrate about someone we will call Joe. - When Dale met Joe, it was after Joe had posted on LinkedIn about passing his first Cisco exam. - Dale reached out to Joe to congratulate him and established a mentoring relationship with Joe (who was 14 at the time). Previous to mentoring Joe, Dale met Joe’s parents and expressed his desire to help Joe further his Cisco expertise. - Dale and Joe would meet together on Saturdays to go over networking exam concepts and leverage Dale’s extensive Cisco home lab as needed. - Joe passed his CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Associate) around age 15 after working with Dale followed by his CCNP (Cisco Certified Network Professional) a year or so later. - When Joe turned 18, he sat for his first CCIE (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) lab despite not passing the first attempt. - Joe now works as part of the Apple network engineering team, and his first job at Apple was over 6 figures (plus stock grants). Joe did not need to graduate from college to get the job, but Dale tells us Joe has taken some college courses to further his expertise since then. - Dale thinks the youth of our nation need to focus on developing hard, demonstrable skills that can get you good jobs. + If those with experience in the technology industry are not reaching back to help others coming into the industry through mentoring or some other avenue, new / potential industry entrants will be left to figure it out on their own (much like veterans had to do in the past when exiting the military). - “I think it’s incumbent upon us to do it. Because if we don’t, they are left to develop that on their own. And I think that that’s almost a very selfish move on our part because we have this knowledge. We have this experience that is invaluable to people like that. You can go and lay that at their feet, let them pick up and use whatever it is that they want. But at least you’ve made that effort to try and help them better themselves by utilizing your knowledge and your experience.” – Dale McKay, on a call to action for those experienced in the tech industry to help others succeed in this industry
19:09 – A Mentor’s Job Description* What is a mentor, and what is a mentee? + “In my mind, a mentor does 2 things – he erects a set of guardrails for your career, but he will not let you fly over that guardrail. You may hit it. You may hit it hard, but he’s not going to let you fly over that guardrail. That’s the first thing he does. The second thing he does…that mentor is the one who shoves that mentee out so that he volunteers for something that he didn’t think he could do or he didn’t think he would be good at…and just needs that little extra shove that says, ‘yeah, that’s you. Go ahead. You can do this.’” – Dale McKay - Nick has been the victim of some of those shoves thanks to Dale. And they worked out great every single time. + When a mentor erects the guardrails for a mentee, they will in the process share a great deal of experience and knowledge. + The shove from behind from the mentor helps us answer those ‘what if’ questions and do things that we won’t later regret. - “That could have been an inflection point in your own career or in your own life. And why didn’t you do it? Because you hesitated, and if you had not hesitated, things could have been different. I’m not excluding myself from this group. I’ve had those moments. I didn’t always have someone to shove me through that open door.” – Dale McKay, on the mentor’s role in helping a mentee avoid hesitation + Listen to Dale’s illustration about looking through a doorway but drawing back and not going in and then what happens sometimes when you get shoved in by someone else (a mentor). + John summarizes the mentor’s role as providing structure and ensuring the mentee is consistently challenged. + Dale has worked with some of his mentees on goal setting. - He tells us a mentor should never set the goal for a mentee. The mentee must set the goals. - A mentor can help you achieve a goal by holding you accountable, but it will be up to the mentee to figure the “how” of achieving the goal. - If a mentee is studying for a certification and not making progress, for example, the mentor would then take action to hold the mentee accountable. Dale describes adjusting a guardrail for the mentee after investigating what the real issue is. - “…Adjust that guardrail based on where that issue is. Maybe it’s a family commitment. Ok, I get it. Maybe it’s hard material. Ok, I get that too. But let’s adjust that guardrail so that we still keep moving forward towards that ultimate goal of getting that cert pass.” – Dale McKay, on the mentor’s role in adjusting guardrails * What made Dale want to mentor people in the first place? + Dale isn’t sure why he enjoys mentoring so much. + A mentor might help a mentee with something fairly general (overall career) or something very specific (i.e. based on a certain task). + Dale says when a mentee takes working with him seriously and he gets to see them succeed because of their hard work, it is a great feeling. + “I like to see people succeed, but when I know they have succeeded because of maybe that set of guardrails that I put in place and helped them steer down that path, I walk away with a good feeling knowing that I have helped them to realize something that maybe they wouldn’t have been able to realize by themselves…maybe” – Dale McKay + Dale emphasizes that when he mentors people, the mentees do the work. He just provides the focus guardrails to help the mentee get to where they want to go. * What about determining whether there is a fit between mentor and mentee? + Dale has had mentee / mentor relationships that did not work. + Dale says there is a very important rule for those seeking to become a mentor – none of this applies to your immediate family. + Dale mentions the work of Tony Robbins and Brendon Burchard highlighting that it is extremely hard to mentor the people closest to you because they can see your flaws. + John says there can be emotional overtones that come along with structural conversations and holding others accountable. It’s nice to have someone at an emotional distance so it does not ruin an existing relationship. + “That’s one piece of advice I give all those aspiring mentors. Don’t practice this at home because your results will probably not be indicative of how good of a mentor you could actually be.” – Dale McKay
27:17 – Advice for the Mentee* For the person needing mentorship, how can we determine if we have found a mentor who can help? + As a mentee, Dale says you need to ask how a specific mentor can help you. It may sound selfish, but it’s really important to consider. + You need an area or a focus for mentorship when looking for a mentor. + If looking for mentorship on career growth, seeking out someone at the same level as you doesn’t make sense. Neither does seeking out the CEO of your company. - “What you want to find is someone who’s already been down that journey and can show you where the pitfalls are, where the rocks are, where the easy path is. That’s what you want to get as a mentee out of that mentor…. I think it’s up to the mentee to determine what he wants out of this relationship, and he needs to communicate that to the mentor. And if the mentor is not on board with that, then you need to move on until you find one that is on board. It’s just going to be a waste of your time if the two of you aren’t going in the same direction.” – Dale McKay * Asking yourself what you want from a mentor should in a way point you in a direction to find one. Nick hypothesizes that we don’t require a mentor who works in the same industry or discipline as we do. + For example, if we need advice on people management, there are lessons we can learn about being a leader regardless of whether someone is a manager in technology or outside of it. They may be specific nuances to being a manager in technology that we need to understand from a different mentor, however. + Dale says we need to understand the background of anyone we want to mentor us. If a possible mentor does not have experience in an area where you need help, they won’t be able to effectively guide you as a mentee. + “I can’t learn people management by reading books or attending seminars. I have to roll my sleeves up and do it.” – Dale McKay, on the need for a mentor with experience + The mentee should decide first what they want out of the relationship with a mentor. If it’s career growth, what does that mean to you? Be specific. - Does career growth mean getting a promotion? - Does career growth mean expanded knowledge? - Does career growth mean industry recognition? - Does career growth mean you want to deliver a presentation at a technology conference? + “As a mentor, it’s about me sharing my experience with the mentee. If I don’t have that experience, then I don’t have what that mentee needs.” – Dale McKay - Dale says he has had instances where he did not have the experience needed to help a mentee. In that situation, be honest, and consider pointing the mentee to someone else who could help. + Dale says the mentor / mentee relationship can’t just be transactional. There needs to be some kind of personal relationship between mentee and mentor.
Mentioned in the Outro* Nick says if the mentor and mentee can develop a personal relationship and get to know one another, mentors have a way of delivering the right advice just when you need it. Dale has done this so many times for Nick! * The match between mentor and mentee is really important. If a mentor does not have the experience you as a mentee need, they are not the right mentor! + Nick was paired up with Dale as part of a formal mentoring program after becoming a CTO Ambassador at VMware. Before agreeing to work together, Dale had Nick first go and speak with other mentees of Dale’s to understand what to expect and determine if it would be valuable to move forward together. Nick didn’t expect a mentor to be so focused on providing value to the mentee.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman * Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Can we progress to the highest levels of the technical career ladder like senior staff or principal without destroying our lives? Max Kanat-Alexander would say it comes down to getting very clear about what your job is and is not. Those seeking to become principal engineers must relentlessly focus on the work they are uniquely suited to deliver within a specified scope.
This week in episode 287 you’ll hear Max recount how he became one of the technical leads for the developer productivity and happiness team at LinkedIn. Max shares a series of questions for evaluating what could be next in our careers and how we might decide between people management and remaining at the individual contributor level.
Original Recording Date: 06-30-2024
Max Kanat-Alexander is a Principal Staff Software Engineer at LinkedIn and is one of the technical leads for the developer productivity and happiness team. He is also the author of technical books such as Code Simplicity: The Fundamentals of Software. If you missed part 1 or part 2 of our discussion with Max, check out Episode 285 and Episode 286.
Topics – The Principal Engineer and Deciding Where to Focus, Boundaries, Individual Contributors and Managers, Developer Productivity, Evaluating What’s Next3:09 – The Principal Engineer and Deciding Where to Focus* With so many problems you could solve once at the staff or principal engineer level, how do you decide what you will focus on next, and how do you do it without destroying your life? + “You need to decide on a set of strategic initiatives that you own. You cannot just be the ‘I do everything and help everybody generalist.’ You can’t just be constantly running around putting out all the fires because you know better.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, advice for the senior staff engineer + Strategic ownership of a project means you are responsible for that project’s outcomes and that you have agreed upon it with your manager. + “Any piece of work, if you can do it the instant you get it, do it the instant you get it… And the more you do that the less you will build up an overwhelming backlog of things that you now just can’t ever handle.” – Max Kanat-Alexander - Max would include Slack messages in the above. Even if you are not entirely certain of an answer, you can answer the message immediately and qualify your answer. - If something can be done in the next 5 minutes, do it in the next 5 minutes and send it out. + “You need to know specifically what’s your job and what only you can do. And you need to only do the things that only you can do. And anything that anybody else can do, you need to either assign it to them or help them learn how to do it… You have to be ruthless with yourself on this by the way.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on the importance of delegation - Max tells us it is tempting to try and do all the work yourself and that sometimes even he fails in this area. Listen to his example of responding to a question in a Slack thread that someone else should have answered. - It’s important to be very clear with yourself on what is and is not your job. - At Max’s level, he and his manager agree about the things Max will work on, but the way in which Max achieves the work he has set out to do is up to him (not really a concern of his manager’s). Max makes decisions based on the impact he has promised to deliver and rarely needs to work outside of normal working hours. + “I am always on the lookout for problems that are critical to the business in the scope that I’ve been assigned.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on making decisions about where to focus his time and effort - Max doesn’t really get assigned tasks but rather scopes. One example scope he shares is solving engineering metrics for the company (starting with the developer productivity and happiness team and moving beyond that). - Within the scope described above, Max would need to decide which metrics to work on first, which teams to work with, etc. This requires Max have a framework for making decisions and that he get the required data to help him make each decision. - “And if I ever can’t make the decision it’s either because I don’t have a principle about how to make it or that I don’t have the data that I need. And so one of the most key skills is figuring out what data you don’t have.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + To Nick, the above sounds like an exercise in dependency mapping. Does this come from project management skills gained while working on these large problems? - This skill, which Max says every engineer should develop, is the same as requirements gathering. - “One of my observations that I have of engineers is that every single time you cannot solve a problem is because there is something about the problem you do not understand, not because there’s something about the solution you don’t understand… Getting this through to engineers is one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. People absolutely want to solve the problem way, way more than they want to understand the problem.” – Max Kanat-Alexander - Nick mentions continuing to ask questions to ensure we understand the problem can sometimes annoy people, and in these cases we may have to explain that we are seeking only to understand better. - Max says we can know we have all the necessary data when a solution is obvious and we are confident about it. And if we are not completely confident in our solutions, it means we have never gathered enough information about the problem.
9:20 – Boundaries* How can we set the type of boundaries needed without appearing like we’re being mean or jerkish? + Max says our social skills really matter in this area. + Not everyone else inherently knows what our job is and is not, and we have to learn to redirect them helpfully. + This also requires we make some judgment calls. Max mentions sometimes it would be a detriment for him to answer on behalf of others (i.e. especially if it’s about timelines owned by the manager of a specific team), so he may choose to redirect to the proper resource in these cases. + Nick says in a way you’re asking yourself how to get rid of each request to focus on the work you are uniquely suited to handle. * People who decrease their scope and become more specialized may be fearful of not being able to return to a more generalized role. + Max says try to find someone to eventually take over your specialty to allow yourself to go and do something else. + If you are feeling too specialized, Max would suggest not staying in the role for too long. + Max gives the example of COBOL programmers who decided not to learn anything else. There are some programming jobs focused on COBOL today but not many. And this path certainly does not have a career ladder associated with it. - Perhaps a better path would have been seeing continued work in this area as an eventual dead end. Max would encourage pushing your manager to help you find a different or more expansive role, and if the manager cannot help, you can certainly seek out something on your own that expands your technical breadth.
12:38 – Individual Contributors and Managers* Upon reaching the top levels of individual contributor in a company, does make see most people become people leaders? What does Max think about moving into people leadership? + Max would prefer to stay an individual contributor despite having been a manager in some of his past experience (like when he ran the consulting firm). + Being an individual contributor and being a manager are very different roles according to Max. + As a manager, Max is very meticulous about the operational details of a team. He might be focused on spreadsheets, logs, or some type of bug tracking system. - Max would work closely with project managers and know the details of the work being done by his team. He would work to get to know his people and understand anything in their personal lives which might impact their work. - Though Max would be obsessed with delivering outcomes, he would think even more about his employees and ensuring they are not sacrificing overall wellbeing in favor of outcomes. + As an individual contributor, Max needs focus time. - He may be designing something, reviewing something writing code, or in a long technical conversation about a specific topic. - Max could be switching back and forth between 4 different things, for example. He would be paying more attention to specific sets of technologies and results than to specific people. - Though Max is good at being a manager, it does not make him feel fulfilled. + “Would you rather make people or technology?..What are you building? What would you rather build? Would you rather build other people, or would you rather build technology? And if you’d rather build technology your answer is an IC. And if you prefer building other people your answer is manager.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on the decision between individual contributor and manager - The answer to the above can change and can even change multiple times. Max has seen people at his level and above switch back and forth between individual contributor and manager and vice versa. - “There’s a whole craft of being a manager, especially being an engineering manager. There’s a whole craft of being a great engineering manager… To be truly stellar at it is actually rare. So you can build up your skills just in that area…and it can be just as rewarding to see the people and the teams that you’ve created create something amazing as it is to create something amazing directly.” – Max Kanat-Alexander * Would a logical lateral move for a principal role be something in product management? + Max says this depends on where you are in the organization. + In developer infrastructure where Max works, usually there are no product managers. In fact, Max might steer the potential product manager away from infrastructure. - Engineers who work on infrastructure and build tools for it generally only want to listen to other engineers. + If you’re working on a product specifically, you as a product manager are working tightly with the engineering manager to deliver a product together.
17:19 – Developer Productivity* Max says it is very common for an organization to not have defined productivity at all even after building an organization around it. + At LinkedIn productivity is defined as engineers being efficient and effective. Happiness is added at the end to get developer productivity and happiness. + Efficient could mean doing something in the least amount of time possible or as frequently as possible (i.e. remove the friction). Effective means getting the results desired. * What made Max want to focus in this area? + “The thing that I care about as a software engineer is helping other software engineers be better software engineers.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max was the technical lead at Google of YouTube for the Xbox 360 (one of the first ways to watch YouTube on a television). The product was very successful, and there were a number of cool technical things done on that project. + While the product was wildly successful, after a year or so Max became very bored. + Some people are product engineers and some are infrastructure engineers. It depends on whether you want to help users or other software engineers. + Max’s passions and interests keep drawing him toward helping other software engineers (and thus the infrastructure focus). + At Google, when Max was bored he told his manager that he wanted a different job. Max’s manager connected him with the head of developer productivity for YouTube. This person needed someone to help sort out certain problems, and Max jumped all over it. + “I say just do the thing you’re going to do. What happens is if you do this thing, eventually an opportunity will show up. And when you’re like, ‘I can do that opportunity,’ people will believe you because you’ll have a pedigree of having done the thing.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Nick calls this out as relatable experience (experience that prepares you for a job you don’t have yet) and that it is something we don’t often know how to leverage properly when updating LinkedIn profiles, in writing resumes, or in interviews. - Max says he just tells stories in interviews, not claiming to be an expert in relatable experience. - Nick says you get the story by doing something and then documenting your work and accomplishments. - Max says he tends to struggle with documenting his work and usually has to go back to look at his calendar and read through a number of e-mails to get the necessary information for a performance review.
21:25 – Evaluating What’s Next* To decide what we might do next, Max says we should first decide if we want to keep doing what we are doing. + “It’s very easy to get caught up in something comfortable.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on deciding what to do next + Max would encourage us to continually evaluate our answers to the questions below. - Is the work I’m doing still making an impact? - Does the work I am doing require that I do it, or could it be handed off to someone else? - If I stop the work I am doing, would anything bad happen to the company? + “Even if you’re comfortable. Even if you think your job is totally secure, eventually, somebody else will figure out the same answers that you have about your work.” – Max Kanat-Alexander - Max has seen people who were in roles that seemed safe but produced very little impact get bad performance reviews and then get fired. - If your boss tells you the work you are doing doesn’t make any sense or doesn’t seem valuable, ask for their help to correct the problem. If you continue to focus on work that isn’t perceived as valuable, that is a very good way to lose your job. - We need to be honest with ourselves about the importance of the work we are doing in present time and be constantly evaluating this. * Max would also consider the following questions to gauge interest and capability for a new endeavor. + Do I think the problem is important to solve? + Am I interested in solving the problem? Am I interested enough in it to do a good job? + Will I have the resources I need to accomplish this? - Max says you should never take a project that is not funded. He has seen many individual contributors destroy their career by taking unfunded projects without the proper resources to deliver any results. - Resources include people to help (engineers, project managers), hardware / software needed, and possibly agreement from other teams to do the work. Do your research on the resources at your disposal before taking a job! + Do I think I’m capable of doing the job? * “When all those things are true and I have to compare them, the question is ‘which one has the most important long term impact for the company?’ Sometimes there are things that have more short term impact… I really want to do the thing that has the best long-term outcome.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + If Max had to choose between delivering something really cool in a few months and changing the company in 3 years, he would prefer to change the company over the longer term. + Taking a project that has a big impact in 3 months might mean you only maintain the project for the foreseeable future with very little additional impact and no clear exit plan to work on something else. * Nick feels like this is a demonstration of the ability to understand the scope and time horizon of value delivery before taking on a project. + As you think about moving up the engineering career ladder, ask yourself “how many people would I be comfortable leading toward a goal over how long?” - Max’s answer, for example, is thousands to tens of thousands over several years. - “Every person needs to think about that answer for themselves because as much as you might want that promotion, if you get there and you can’t do it, it’s going to be a miserable experience.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Being a number 2 or right hand of someone at Max’s level would still give someone a very large scope. Most of the people Max relies on directly to lead significant parts of a project are senior staff level engineers. - “Because even parts of that problem have such a significant scope that they require somebody who understands how to handle that problem, or they still affect the same number of people over the same time horizon but they are only one piece of technology as an example.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, explaining the concept of scope as it relates to a project - Max gives the example of leading a project to update all dependencies across all code repositories at LinkedIn. One piece of this is the dependency infrastructure, and Max mentions a senior staff engineer is in charge of this. But that is only one piece of the greater project as there are elements in addition to just the infrastructure that need handling. - The scope differences described above are analogous to the difference in a plumber or electrician for a house and a general contractor. * To follow up with Max on this discussion… + Send him a message on LinkedIn + E-mail him using the contact form on his blog Code Simplicity + Follow Max on Twitter @mkanat
Mentioned in the Outro* Remember you are not locked into a career as an individual contributor or a people leader forever. Your preference can change. If you need more advice on how to make that decision, check out these episodes as a small sampling of our back catalog: + Episode 244 – An Array of Decision Points with Tim Crawford (2/2) + Episode 202 – Having Some Career Zigzags with Yvette Edwards (2/2) * To the people managers listening, please let your people know if the work they are doing is not valuable, and individual contributors should ask for guidance if they aren’t sure if the work they are doing is valuable. * Being part of something successful does not mean it will be the most interesting thing we’ve ever worked on. We should keep track of our interest level over time and do what we can within our control to keep the work interesting. Don’t let yourself get to the point of performing poorly or no longer caring to take action! * If you would like a free copy of Max’s book, Code Simplicity, you can get one here.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman * Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
What should we consider before taking on a new work-related or personal project? Max Kanat-Alexander, our guest this week in episode 286, thinks about the end of his involvement in a project as a first step. The only way to focus on bigger things that could make a larger impact is to offload what you’re working on now. Succession planning is about offloading a responsibility or specific work to another person in a way that helps them grow and simultaneously gives us the chance to work on something new.
In part 2 of our discussion with Max, you’ll hear more about the role and responsibilities of a technical lead in software engineering. Max will share the story behind his move away from consulting and the decrease in focus on Bugzilla, how he became the technical owner of engineering documentation at Google, and the decision to author a technical book.
Original Recording Date: 06-30-2024
Max Kanat-Alexander is a Principal Staff Software Engineer at LinkedIn and is one of the technical leads for the developer productivity and happiness team. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Max, check out Episode 285.
Topics – More on the Tech Lead Role, Tech Lead and Communication Skills, Interactions in Software Engineering, Delegation and Assessing Growth Potential in Others, Leaving Consulting and Passing the Bugzilla Torch, Technical Ownership and Succession Planning, Becoming a Published Author2:35 – More on the Tech Lead Role* So to progress up to technical lead, it’s about technical depth, a willingness to coordinate resources to solve a problem, and a desire to make others better? + Many of the senior most engineers care deeply about what they work on and are experienced technologists. Max has written professionally in 10 different programming languages, for example. It’s important for the technical lead and other experienced engineers to remember not everyone will have the same technical background as you, and they will have skills that you don’t. + “It’s really important not just to be able to coordinate resources but to figure out and understand how best to utilize and employ all of the different engineers that you have available to you to cause work to be done effectively and to recognize that people have strengths and weaknesses. Don’t be surprised if you assign a task to somebody who is not strong in that task and they don’t do a good job. Or, be aware that they have that weakness and either you’re going to mentor them through it or you’re going to find someone else to mentor them through it. Because it’s not just your job to deliver a product at that point. It’s also to cause a team to exist that can deliver the product.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Managers create and sustain teams by performing their essential job activities – hiring, firing, and performance reviews. These are not tech lead duties! + Remember – you may be more technical than the managers you work with. + “The only person who’s going to judge the quality of the work and to describe how people are going to up level their craft of engineering is you. And you have to really care about the people who you lead.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on the responsibility of the tech lead + Max has seen technical leads get frustrated at the team members around them and their skill level, and he reminds those tech leads it is their job to help others get better. + Nick says a tech lead is a stakeholder in performance review discussions even though managers own that process overall. Input from the tech lead on someone’s work and performance will be through a different lens than the manager.
5:46 – Tech Lead and Communication Skills* Nick says it seems like communication skills are very important if you want to be a tech lead. We’re talking about communicating well with other people who do the same type of work as you as well as people from other teams. Did Max’s role as community lead for Bugzilla help him build the necessary communication skills for being an effective technical lead later in his career, or was it something else? + “It is extremely hard to rise up the technical ladder without excellent communication skills.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max has always loved writing, and he feels like this really helped develop his communication skills. He would write short stories in elementary school. Max viewed writing essays in college as just writing practice and would turn in rough drafts. + “In real life, you’re going to be sending out first drafts of a thing you wrote every day, and they are called e-mails.” – Max Kanat-Alexander * Can someone improve communication skills by writing code? + Max says writing code is a very different discipline. + “Writing code is like a computational meditation with yourself. It is…for me one of the most beautiful and fulfilling experiences that I have in my life, and I love doing it. But it is something I am doing with myself…the actual process of writing code. However, the reality is, software engineering is much more of a human discipline than it is a technical discipline.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max says working on a software engineering project involves spending just as much or more time interacting with people than writing code.
8:38 – Interactions in Software Engineering* Do most people get surprised by the amount of interactions required to work in software development / software engineering? + Max says yes and that it is shocking to most all who enter the industry. Many people got into programming because they did not feel socially competent or didn’t want a lot of social interaction. + “There is a tremendous amount of social interaction involved in team software development.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Rather than the social interaction weeding people out, Max sees people grow into it most of the time. + “There will be a point where your career cannot grow past a certain point until you become a great communicator.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on being a great technologist but not progressing as a communicator + An extremely talented engineer without good communication skills would need to have a champion internally defend them in performance reviews. Listen to the way Max describes this happening in his experience. * How can software engineers learn to develop the communication skills they need in addition to learning from interactions at work? Many of the other guests we’ve spoken with highlighted the importance of communication skills in their career progression. + Max says there a number of training programs that can help people improve their communication skills. He mentions Effective Training Solutions by name as having one of the most effective programs to teach people how to communicate in corporate environments. + “You’ve got to find some training or information that works…You can’t just be like, ‘well, a smart person wrote this. So it must be true. You have to decide for yourself.’” – Max Kanat-Alexander - Max mentions we need to try things and see if they actually work because there are many in the industry selling programs based on pseudo-science that don’t work. - Reading Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People may not be what you need. Max says using the techniques inside will eventually cause you to run into barriers.
12:25 – Delegation and Assessing Growth Potential in Others* Following the theme of technical ownership from Bugzilla, into consulting, and then when Max worked for Google… + Did Max and his co-workers own both the scoping and delivery of any consulting work at the consulting firm he started? - Max refers to consulting work as freelance work. - Max did all the scoping at his consulting firm focused on Bugzilla as well as all design work for customer projects. He would handle implementation of small projects on his own and leverage contractors when needed for larger projects. + Was it hard for Max to learn to delegate after having done so much with the Bugzilla project? - The Bugzilla experience made Max thankful when people showed up to do work because it was way more work than he could do on his own, and he had become skilled in delegation as a result. - “You also learn to detect people who are bad but will get better and people who are bad and will never get better, which is really an important skill to have as both a tech lead and I think a manager…. You can see if an engineer is improving or not, and that’s a really important skill as far as delegation goes…. You’re going to delegate something, and somebody’s going to do it wrong. And so there has to be a review process.” – Max Kanat-Alexander - Any time someone did work for the firm’s customers, Max would code review the work before it was released on behalf of his company to be used by customers. - Part of this is deciding what contractors you will hire. Do you know them and if you can trust them? Do the contractors you are working with have potential to improve and a mindset that will support them improving, or do they have a fixed mindset about everything? - “You are in a position where you can delegate because you are competent, and you are probably more competent than the people you are delegating to. And you have to know this person’s going to get better, so as a result, I will help this person. This other person, I’ve helped them enough. And they are never going to get better, and I am going to fire them.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on delegation and competence * Is there a way to determine if someone has the potential for improvement in an interview? How can an interviewer determine this? + Max encourages interviewers to give candidates something similar to what they would be doing. + “You don’t just want to be sure that they solve it correctly. You want to watch how they do it and especially how they do it when given some independence. So don’t give them every answer along the way. Act a little bit like you aren’t there and you just want to see how they do work when nobody is watching.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max conducts interviews differently depending on the level of the person he’s interviewing and the open position. Max mentions giving someone a piece of paper with requirements and allowing them to ask him anything they want, answering only what the candidate asks. + Nick suggests the honing of the interview based on the job role and level is a skill both the technical lead and manager would need to master over time even if they had not done so upon taking a role. + Should the technical lead be sitting in on job interviews? - Max says the tech lead should be directly interviewing people. They should be conducting interviews by themselves. - “If you don’t know how to do interviews, you should sit in with other sand follow them for a little while and figure out what the company process is for doing interviews. But you absolutely need to be involved in interviewing people.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on the tech lead’s responsibility in the interview process
17:27 – Leaving Consulting and Passing the Bugzilla Torch* Max and his mother were the only full time employees of his consulting firm. His mother had experience running multiple companies and doing organizational administration. + Max’s mother spent a huge amount of time working to get other companies to pay Max’s firm for services delivered. * “The hardest part of being a consultant is getting people to pay you…. I wanted to get off of that roller coaster. When you are a freelancing consultant, I like to say you have infinite vacation days, and none of those days are paid…. If you don’t work, you don’t get paid. And sometimes you do work, and you don’t get paid…. I wanted to get out of that world.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max enjoyed the independence and being able to work from home. + Max had no issues staying motivated because he loved Bugzilla and the work that focused on it (which was the majority of his company’s focus). He also loved coding. * Max eventually had to hand over Bugzilla to someone else (the baby he had looked after for so long). + When Max joined Google, there was something called 20% time. As long as it benefitted the company in some way, an employee could work on whatever they wanted. Max had negotiated to spend that time working on Bugzilla and did so for about the first year he was with the company. + “But eventually the things that I was working on at Google became so interesting to me that I just really wanted to work on those.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + There were around 10,000 companies using Bugzilla at this time. + There was a bigger impact to be made through involvement with the products at Google (i.e. working on a product that would have 50 million users upon release), and that was more fun for Max. He liked the technical challenges, the work he was doing, the company, and the people. + Anticipating he would eventually lose focus on Bugzilla, Max made sure Mozilla hired 2 developers for Bugzilla so that the project could survive. * How can we be ok with laying something down that we’ve worked on for so long? + Matt mentions two ways out – the good way and the bad way. He has tried to take the good way out of scenarios like this in his career. + “The good way out is I feel confident that others will take the flag and run with it and it’ll be beautiful. And I love the thing that I work on now. I’m really excited about this thing that I work on now, and everybody else is going to take it.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + The bad way out is thinking no one can replace you in a specific role / project and then hitting a point where you can no longer work on it (i.e. life situation, etc.). + “As a result, every time I take on a project…the first thing I think about, the very first thing I think about for every project I ever take on is, ‘how am I going to get rid of it?’” – Max Kanat-Alexander * How did Max learn to think this way and ask himself how to get rid of a project before starting? + Max likely learned this during his time on the Bugzilla project when he had more work than one person could possibly do. + Max feels he learned some of this at Kerio while working as 2nd level technical lead for the 3-person technical support group. - Max knew he could not work every ticket and learned to delegate them to other team members. - He later got an idea for writing a document outlining the tech support processes for the company but knew he would have to stop working tickets to write that document. There was also the Bugzilla work Max was doing that needed to be factored into how he spent his time. + “I think you see over time unless I can at some point get rid of the thing that I work on I will never be able to move to bigger things.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Maybe this is a good exercise to keep our identity from getting tied up in a thing we do? Having our identity tied to our work is a problem, especially if you have worked on something for a long time.
23:00 – Technical Ownership and Succession Planning* What did technical ownership at Google look like when it came to ownership of the engineering practice documentation? + Max had written a document with tips for doing code reviews from his time working on Bugzilla and his brief time doing code reviews at Google. The document became very popular. + Max also participated in a weekly code health group, and the leaders of the group (who had deep connections within the company) recommended Max make his document the official code review guide for Google. They encouraged him to contact one of the senior technical fellows at Google to gain approval. + Once Max got approval to use his document as the official guide for code reviews, he wanted to put it in a centralized location. But in doing this he also noticed other standardized documents like his code review document. These were documents for things like testing and style guides that needed more visibility and in some cases better ownership. + “I think we worked in many ways by popular acclaim. And I never tried to…force a standard on the company that it didn’t agree with. I would always try to have conversations in advance with as many engineers as I possibly could….” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max tells us no one was doing what he ended up doing (making pull requests more visible and collaborative, etc.), and it was very well received. + “It’s amazing that sometimes you can just get a responsibility by finding a thing that’s really important but that nobody else wants to own and then be granted it, and then it is legitimately yours.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on becoming the owner of documentation + When the leaders of the code health group Max participated in left the company, they asked him to be the group lead. Max had successfully owned the documentation and rolled it out to the entire company at that point and was a published author. + “If I had to have a core piece of advice for people’s career, it would be just do the thing you want to do. Whatever the thing is that you want to do, find any way you possibly can to do it. And if you just do it enough, eventually it will be your job.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max wasn’t asking someone else to create a standard like back in the days of the Fedora FAQ. He had merely written a very popular document because he cared about code reviews and felt others could benefit from his experience. As it turns out, many people benefitted from it. + The ownership of the documentation was something Max did because he wanted to do it and not because it was part of his formal job responsibilities. + Following the mantra of thinking about how to get rid of something before you commit to working on it long term, eventually Max handed off the documentation ownership to a colleague (Adam Bender). + “I remember the moment that Adam Bender showed up in the code health group and he started posting and we started having conversations. Immediately I was like ‘if I ever leave this person is my successor.’ It took me maybe 2 weeks of interacting with him to be like, ‘oh, it’s definitely going too be Adam.’” – Max Kanat-Alexander * Nick suggests succession planning extends beyond being something organizations and managers need to do and can apply to many different things (like technical projects / things that require owners). The technical owner almost needs to be a talent scout and keep watch for people who would make good contributors and future owners. + “As life goes on and you work at a company and you’re trying to succession plan things, it often still works just like it works for volunteer projects and open source projects. You’re actually looking for the person who is the most passionate and wants to be the most involved. You’re not looking for a manager to appoint somebody your successor. You ideally want to convince a manager that somebody should be your successor.” – Max Kanat-Alexander * Should someone seeking a technical lead role have mastered the skill of succession planning? + Max says in the long it is important to master succession planning. + “The people who succeed you become really important connective tissue for you in your career.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max mentions he continues to stay in touch with Adam, for example. They continue to have a great relationship and help one another. Though Max has fallen out of touch a little bit with people from his time working on the Bugzilla project, he is confident the relationships would continue if he were to work with them again. + “In the short term, you don’t need to be a master of this. It depends on how much you want to leave the world better than you found it. If you want to build a sandcastle that gets knocked down when you leave, you don’t need to master this skill. If you want to build a cathedral that everybody can walk in and admire and enjoy and love long after you’re gone, you need to master this skill.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on mastering succession planning + Nick says the above is legacy building.
30:45 – Becoming a Published Author* Writing a book seems like a form of legacy building. What was Max’s motivation to become a published author? + Max isn’t interested in work that he feels does not affect the world in some way. Even if it was part of the world or the impact would be made / felt in the future, that is the type of work he would rather be doing. + When Max came into programming, he had 10 years of previous IT experience and had seen many different ways in which a computer could break. He did not like it and did not want other people to keep experiencing these problems. + Max felt the problems he had seen boiled down to complexity, and once he worked as a programmer this was confirmed. + With Bugzilla they took a code base that was challenging to write in a well structured way and transformed it into a code base on which people enjoyed working. Max wanted to share that with the world. + Max developed a habit of interviewing programmers and had interviewed probably 100 by the time he wrote his book Code Simplicity. + The work Max and others had done with Bugzilla was something almost no one else had done. Maybe there was something there he knew about that he could write about and share with others. + Max had a background in epistemology and enjoyed breaking things down into fundamental principles (i.e. enjoyed it so much it was almost like a hobby). + “I can take this experience, and I can use it to reduce it down to a set of principles that caused this work to succeed. And I can publish those, and if other people can benefit from those, that would be great.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + O’Reilly had been wanting to launch a number of programming books like the one Max had written. They accepted his proposal, and Max says they were wonderful to work with. * How long does a book proposal have to be? + Max says publishers have a template they use for book proposals that authors can follow. * Does the book have to be written when you submit the proposal, or can it be thought of like a conference talk (i.e. just write the abstract)? + You do not need to have a book written to submit a proposal to a publisher, but Max had already written the book by the time he wrote and submitted the proposal. + Max’s mother was already a published author and helped him with the publishing process. * For those thinking about writing a book, what would Max recommend be taken into consideration before starting a project like this? + “Any professional author will tell you that the only way that you’re ever going to get through the process of writing a book is if you love writing books.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max recommends writing a book because you want to do it. And in the technical field you should not expect to make a significant amount of money with a book. + Max tells us having written a book for O’Reilly is a nice calling card that can be used to establish technical credibility in his case. + One way to make money is through paid speaking engagements after writing the book. You would also need to figure out how to market your book since publishers usually don’t do much to help. + “If you have a message that you really want to get out to the world, technical or nontechnical, a book is a great way to do it.” – Max Kanat-Alexander * Does writing a technical book immediately create pressure to publish a revision because of our changing technology industry? Or should an author try to create something with content that is more evergreen? + Max mentions this is a constant problem for technical books. Books are often pushed aside for more up to date websites and reference materials. + Max mentions books are a much better teaching mechanism in technology and can be presented in a cohesive story to the reader. We can “learn it through a system somebody has spent hundreds of hours refining.” The book is a better experience than just reading through online documentation in Max’s opinion. + Max mentions publishers have consistently tried to make it easier for authors to update books after the initial publishing, adding print on demand options for example to prevent ordering too many physical copies at once. + “My book was evergreen by its nature. I as a person care much more about writing and creating things that are timeless and will help everybody. It just doesn’t interest me as much to write something very narrow about a specific technology even if I was able to.” – Max Kanat-Alexander * Nick feels like the evergreen focus and desire to make an impact for the good of the world aligns with the heart of the principal engineer.
Mentioned in the Outro* The pre-mortem exercise reminds us we can work on something for a time and then be open to working on other interesting problems. * Succession planning is delegation that gives someone else an opportunity for growth just like participating in a specific project was a growth opportunity for us. Handing off a project is building others up.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman * Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Do you know anything about Bugzilla? Sometimes the answer to a simple, unexpected question like this can change our direction. Max Kanat-Alexander, our guest this week in episode 285, once answered this question with a resounding yes because of something he’d done earlier.
Max spent time triaging bugs for the Mozilla project while in college and had learned how to use Bugzilla. He would later deploy and administer the software for his employer, make the decision to write code that added support for PostgreSQL to Bugzilla, become the release manager for the project, and eventually become the chief architect and community lead.
This week you’ll hear how a young Max Kanat-Alexander decided to study computer science and what drew him to embrace the open source spirit through deeper commitment to the Bugzilla project over the course of his career. Max shares some great tips for those looking to contribute to an open source project and thoughts on where the technical lead sits in software engineering. Listen closely to understand the scope of problems people at each software engineering job level are tasked with solving.
Original Recording Date: 06-30-2024
Topics – Meet Max Kanat-Alexander, Experience with FileMaker, The Open Source Spirit, Upgrading Bugzilla and a Decision Point, Becoming a Release Manager, The Role of a Community Lead, Software Engineering Job Levels and the Technical Lead2:10 – Meet Max Kanat-Alexander* Max Kanat-Alexander is a Principal Staff Software Engineer at LinkedIn and is one of the technical leads for the developer productivity and happiness team. * Max has been interested in computers since he was very young. + One of the schools Max attended had an old Tandy computer and a 286 computer. + When he found out one of these machines didn’t work. Max took it as a personal challenge to get it working again. Max tells us he learned a lot in the process. + Max’s family eventually got a computer, which he later broke. + Both before and during high school Max worked in IT technician roles. * Max planned to major in theater, physics, or computer science in college. + When he began attending UC Santa Cruz, Max majored in theater. + “I quickly discovered that, at least at UC Santa Cruz, the theater major was very theater heavy, and I did not want to study the theory of theater. I wanted to act and direct and produce shows. And so I changed to my next equal interest… And the only computer related major that they had was computer science.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on pursuing computer science + The computer science program was focused on learning to write code and programming languages. + In math class in high school, Max would write prime solver programs on his TI-83 calculator instead of paying attention. * Max was in college from 1999 to 2003 and mentions there wasn’t a lot of mentorship out there to guide hopeful software engineers on career choices. + Max tells the story of a classmate in college who was hired to work for Sun Microsystems before finishing school, but that wasn’t something that happened often. + Max pursued comp science because he liked computers. Many of his classmates were either pushed to do computer science because it looked like math or science or they really had a passion for computers.
6:37 – Experience with FileMaker* Max had been building FileMaker databases for people since his early teens. That first project was creating a database of stunt actors for theme park stunt shows. + Multiple FileMaker projects followed this, and Max created a FileMaker database for the university housing department, where he worked until the end of his college tenure. + FileMaker gives you a scripting language to work with and is what Max calls a nice introduction to the concepts of programming. * “When I left school I still had more IT experience than I had programming experience, and really all these jobs that I’d had had been IT jobs where I just had coincidentally been making a FileMaker database or one time I programmed in Cold Fusion.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max eventually learned how to build basic webpages, but most of his experience was in IT jobs. + Max got really into Linux in college and installed Red Hat version 9 on a computer. + “The way that I am is I decided that I wanted to live on the edge and that I wanted to just constantly update to whatever the next development version of Red Hat was. And it turned out that the difference between Red Hat 9 and Red Hat 10 was there was no Red Hat 10. There was Fedora 1, and as a result I was one of the only people in the world who had been using Fedora effectively for months before it came out. And so I wrote the very first support web page ever for Fedora…. I was getting 120,00 unique visitors a month to a one page website.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max was hired as the lead technician for tech support in the Americas at Kerio, a company most famous for making a Windows Firewall back when Windows did not have a good built in firewall. This company made a mail server and a software router that ran on Windows. - Max answered phone calls and worked with a couple of other technicians to solve all kinds of interesting problems.
10:10 – The Open Source Spirit* One day Max was asked if he knew anything about Bugzilla. The answer was a resounding yes. + “One of the ways I had spent my free time in college was triaging bugs for the Mozilla project. I just found this very interesting.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Triage means someone has reported a bug, but no one knows if it is valid, if it can be reproduced, if it has sufficient information, or if it might be a duplicate of an existing bug. + At the time, all the triage work for Mozilla project bugs was done by volunteers, including Max. He had used Bugzilla extensively because it was the bug tracking system for the Mozilla project. * Max’s company wanted him to install Bugzilla. + Bugzilla ran on MySQL as its database technology, but Max was much more familiar with PostgreSQL. + Max mentions for the programmer who really likes SQL, likes standards, and wants all possible features, PostgreSQL is a great option. * Max used a fork of Bugzilla that Red Hat had made running on PostgreSQL, which was great until Red Hat stopped maintaining the fork, and there was not a way to upgrade the version as a result. + Max saw two ways to make the upgrade happen – copy the data from PostgreSQL to MySQL or make upstream Bugzilla support PostgreSQL. The latter was the choice Max made. + “I was very much keen on the open source spirit. And I felt like that spirit was ‘contribute back to the world rather than just back to yourself.’” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on his decision to make upstream Bugzilla support PostgreSQL * Did someone model this idea of giving back for the greater good for Max earlier in his life? + Max triaged bugs because he was not a programmer. But he did it because he loved working with the technology and wanted to work more with it (bug triage being the only option). He loved computers, appreciated Mozilla, and he wanted it to succeed. It was an inherent motivation. + With the Fedora FAQ site, Max had encouraged others to write it multiple times before taking it upon himself to do so. He had participated in the IRC support channel and continued to answer the same questions over and over again. - “Anybody in that channel could have just done it, and it would have been wildly successful. After I while I started to get this impression that if I didn’t do something, nobody else was going to do it. That was very true on the Bugzilla project as well.” – Max Kanat-Alexander - If Max had not decided to write the support for PostgreSQL into Bugzilla, he is not sure anyone else would have added multi-database support. * Can someone report bugs on GitHub today as a way to slide closer to development if they are not a programmer today? + Max would encourage anyone who wants to become a better programmer to work on open source. It is an environment where most of the time people really want your contributions. One of the hardest things in open source is getting others to do work for you. + Some non-programming skills may be even more valuable than programming skills in open source. If you have design skills, for example, open source projects would love to have you. + “There are no open source user interface designers. They do not exist.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max highlights contributions to open source as referenceable artifacts for your resume. + Max did over 10,000 code reviews for Bugzilla! * How did Max find out about bug triage for Mozilla in the first place? + Max thinks he tried to file a bug and had to search for duplicates first. Once he noticed things were pretty messy he wanted to help clean them up. * When Max decided to enhance the fork of Bugzilla, did he have an idea of how to do it or just confidence he could figure it out? + Max had enough programming experience to formulate opinions on the structure of software. He had written applications in Java and Cold Fusion but had to learn Perl to work on Bugzilla. Perl is easy to learn but one of the hardest languages to master according to Max. * What advice does Max have for someone who wants to contribute to open source but is not sure what project to pick? + Max would advise finding something you use, something that matters to you, or something similar to what interests you because it will likely lead to being more involved. Go and see if you can contribute to a community in one of those areas. + Before contributing to an open source project, we can look at how frequently the commits are, how many issues are filed, and how responsive others are to the issues filed. + Look at the pull requests (or PRs) and see if there is a healthy discussion that happens as a result of them. + “You also will get a sense from looking at the PRs of the tone and the nature of the culture of the community and whether or not you want to be part of that. Some communities might be a little more aggressive and direct, and some communities might be a little more polite and reserved. And you have to decide which one more suits your style of work.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Many times there is a link to a Discord or Slack channel that someone could check out. How alive is it?
20:03 – Upgrading Bugzilla and a Decision Point* Max’s company wanted to upgrade Bugzilla to get new features, and he said he would make it happen, revealing later that he would be building multi-database support into the product. Others were a little skeptical of what Max intended to do, but as long as he finished all of his other work it was not a problem. + “At that time I actually worked more. I was at the office more than I had been in the past. I was spending a few hours a day working on Bugzilla in one way or another…. I would work on it…all the time because I just was so interested in the problem that I was solving.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Nick says the choice to write code to upgrade Bugzilla aligns with Max’s desire to continue to work on the things that interested him, and this decision likely only strengthened his enjoyment of the project. - Max says “you feel like it’s your baby.” * How was Max able to stay involved for so long? + Max made all of his changes in Bugzilla version 2.19 (which would become version 2.20 once released). The first number is the major version, and the second number is the minor version with even numbers being a stable version and odd numbers being a development version. - “You only want to be using the development release if you really want to live on the edge and you don’t want things to work. You’re fine with things breaking.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Once Max made all the changes to version 2.19, his changes could not yet be released because version 2.18 would need to be released first. - Version 2.16 of Bugzilla had not been great, and a number of competitors showed up on the scene (like JIRA). - Max needed to be able to upgrade to version 2.20 to demonstrate that he had done work. - Just like back when he was using Fedora, he asked numerous people to get Bugzilla 2.18 released. But it wasn’t that simple as there were a number of bugs from 2.17 that needed to be resolved so 2.18 could be released. The release process involved other work too like packaging up the new version, sending out announcements, etc. - “So I was like, ‘fine. I’ll do it. I’ll just do it. I’ll just release 2.18.’ So, as one discovers as one goes through one’s history in life as a technician or any kind of technologist, if you accept responsibility for anything unpopular, it will become your job. Or if you express an opinion about anything that anybody else doesn’t want to work on, it will be come your job. This has happened consistently for the rest of my career…. So I became the release manager of the Bugzilla project.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Max helped drive the release of 2.18, and once bugs were resolved in 2.19, 2.20 was released. - Through this process Max got more involved in the community and began to do code reviews for anyone wanting to commit changes to the project. - Max also had to ensure the test infrastructure was working for upcoming release testing. + Max really enjoys refactoring code and led the Bugzilla project through a number of refactoring efforts. - With Bugzilla, when a new feature was going to be released, it would get refactored. The refactoring process makes code easier to read. - When contributors built and submitted a patch, the Bugzilla team (including Max) would not accept the patch until it was refactored. But they would not stop there and would teach people how to properly refactor their code. Most of the time contributors appreciated the simplicity of refactoring and would eliminate even more bugs in their code in the process. + Max eventually became the chief architect and one of the co-leads of the Bugzilla project. - There was a lead named Dave Miller above Max and his co-lead of the project who would resolve any disputes between project leads when needed. + Max also became the community lead for the project and was in charge of recruiting new contributors, making the documentation better to onboard new contributors, improving the experience of existing contributors, encouraging people to get more involved, and making the community an overall more welcoming place. + Max went on to leave Kerio and start his own consulting company called Everything Solved (which primarily did Bugzilla consulting).
27:10 – Becoming a Release Manager* It sounds like Max was perfect for the chief architect after seeing so many different aspects and elements of the project from bug triage to releases to writing and reviewing code to fix bugs. He knew the system as a whole very well as a result of that experience. + For purposes of defining terms, refactoring means cleaning up code to make it more readable, to make it simpler, and even more efficient – without changing the behavior that users experience. + When Max became a co-lead, that is what we might call a maintainer in the GitHub world. * In taking on the role of release manager, Max knew nothing about the process. Dave Miller, one of Mozilla’s only systems administrators, helped him understand it. + This was around the time the Mozilla foundation started. Max learned entirely by asking Dave questions and eventually wrote down the release procedure he had learned. + Could someone learn release management without knowing how to code well or being a programmer? Could they sharpen their programming skills after starting to work in release management? - Max says it depends on the complexity of the release pipelines and systems. - Much of the role of release manager is project management – gathering the list of bugs that need to be resolved for a release to happen and checking in on timelines. The project management aspect can be done without having programming experience, but in most open source projects, you likely need to be a programmer to handle release management. - Max says the type of coding you have to do as a release manager is not that difficult. Mostly this would involve writing scripts to automate things that are normally done manually (but those things could still be done manually if needed). You do need to be competent with computers and handling people to do work at a minimum. The programming parts are quite learnable. Thinking about it again, Max says this is a pretty good entry point into programming. + Is release management a role or a function someone in another job takes on within most organizations today? - Max does not see it much as a dedicated role these days. The trend is to make software engineers do the release management themselves to understand the process and pain they have potential to cause in that process. - In cases of very complicated release systems, a dedicated release manager is needed. But in Max’s experience this is becoming more rare.
31:20 – The Role of a Community Lead* How was the role of the community lead different from what Max had done previously? + This requires a broader level of responsibility. People start as being merely members of the community. If there’s something going on that you don’t like in the community or the documentation is not clear, it isn’t really your problem. That’s the community lead’s problem. You as a contributor / member of the community can go speak with other more involved members of the community for help or to get clarity. + The most important thing a community manager oversees is the onramp process for the project. This would be things like understanding where contributions are accepted, how to submit changes and the overall change process, expectations, specifying an easy entry point for newcomers, etc. - For example, Max came up with a system for Bugzilla to put issues into a specific queue for contributions by newcomers to the project. He as the community lead had to put in the work to create this system. These were relatively straightforward issues maintainers would never be able to handle but that could easily be handled by others who cared. + As soon as someone shows up to help, you must be very appreciative if you want to keep them as a contributor. - “People in open source show up because they love programming and they care about your project and they want to work with you. And they may have day jobs as programmers that they don’t like. And there’s various reasons that they don’t like them. One of them is they might feel like the thing that they work on is something that they don’t care about and that nobody appreciates. Very often, the pay that you get for work on open source is appreciation. In your life…the value that you get is both the sense of having delivered impact to the world and owning something really important for the world and then also appreciation. And then on the flip side, any negativity that you get, you don’t have to put up with that. Nobody’s paying you. You just leave.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on the mindset of open source contributors * Should open source contributors look for a project written in a language they are familiar with or one in a language they would like to learn? + Early in your career as a programmer, pick a project in a language you know well. Remember you will also have to learn a lot about the project and its code. Learning that and a new programming language at the same time is not something Max recommends.
35:02 – Software Engineering Job Levels and the Technical Lead* What is a chief architect in software development, and what does that function do? + This role presents itself in different ways across different sizes of organizations. + Max’s job as chief architect in the Bugzilla project was to decide on the code architecture of the system. He would say it’s more like a technical lead role in many other companies today. - Someone in this role makes the final systems design decisions. This person is in charge of maintaining consistency, simplicity, and clarity as the system grows. - They should also be open to discussions with others who have a technical point to make. * We’ve spoken to other guests who were technical leads in IT operations, for example. Are technical leads in the software development world usually individual contributors? + There are different types of tech leads according to Max. We will use the names Max has heard them called most frequently in the industry. + At the bottom of the technical hierarchy, we have software engineers and senior software engineers as common entry points. Think of the software engineer as someone who can write code but without enough experience to do it completely on their own, often times lacking an understanding of the best practices of systems and programming languages. + A senior software engineer (the next level up) can be trusted to write changes on their own. We might call this owning a feature from end to end and delivering it. You can give them work and not be as concerned about them doing it wrong. + The next level is staff and the lowest level that would really be considered a tech lead. - Tech leads have different duties depending on the team and the nature of the team and how many reports the manager of the team has. If the team is large, you would have some managerial type duties. - Tech leads set the architecture of the system and ensuring its quality, decide on the overall design, and make major technical decisions about datastores and languages and frameworks. - “They are helping guide the team towards improving their craft of software engineering, and they are also a connective tissue between their teams and other teams at the company. They are the technical connective tissue.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on the responsibilities of a tech lead - A staff engineer may be acting as tech lead for more than one team (could be 1 -3 teams). + The next level is senior staff, and someone in this role owns multiple staff level projects. The nature of the role starts to change at this level. - They usually still write code and review it but are doing a lot more strategic work. A senior staff engineer may be leading 20-30 engineers or a project of immense scope and complexity. They could be coordinating with many teams across the company. - This person may own an entire problem like internal search for the entire company. The senior staff engineer would be responsible for writing the entire project plan for work that is going to take 6 months to 2 years. It would include how they will coordinate multiple teams to complete the work. This person would also be the central reviewer and approver of all technical decisions surrounding a particular system. + The next level up is principal, and someone in this role is getting farther away from coding on a daily basis. - Some principals still write code, but it is less common to be coding frequently. - At this level you work strategically and can be thought of owning a problem for the whole company. - Max is a principal at LinkedIn, and in the past he has owned problems like engineering metrics for the company. His only instruction for that project was “go make engineering more data driven.” It was up to Max to coordinate the work of 30-100 engineers to solve that problem. He would work on the strategy, the plan, and still be a technical reviewer for many things. - “It’s still my job to cause software to be built…. My job is…we have a technical vision. We need to get that technical vision delivered. And my job is to do literally anything required at the company to get that technical vision delivered. At my level there is no excuse that I cannot do something. I must be able to do anything that is required, any role that is required in order to accomplish whatever goal has been set for me.” – Max Kanat-Alexander + Above principal is the distinguished engineer. - This person essentially owns a sizable portion of the company. They may set a vision for hundreds of engineers within an organization across the entire company or sets a vision the entire company works toward. * Nick says it seems like as your job level goes up, the scope is wider and the problem is more ambiguous when given to you. But you have more control over how the problem is solved and how the problem statement gets refined. + Max is involved in promoting people from staff to senior staff. While technical acumen and feedback from others are considered, the first thing discussed is scope and ambiguity. + For promotion purposes, do companies want you to have a wide impact both inside and outside the company / in the greater industry? - This depends on the level you’re at and the company’s expectations, but Max says you’re usually not expected to have a broad impact on the world until you reach principal or above. - “At least as an engineer, what does matter is impact of the work that you’ve done.” – Max Kanat-Alexander - If you work on the product your company makes, you do need to have an impact on the world outside your company. - At a lower level you have this impact by writing the code that fixes a product bug or produces a new feature, etc. The impact is felt upon product release.
Mentioned in the Outro* Remember that an open source project is a technical community. Max shared some great ways we can evaluate one the same way we would an online forum or other community group. * Can we describe the increase in the scope of problems we’re trying to solve in our careers? It’s a great story to share in interviews! + The idea of an increase in problem scope extends to any technical career (not just software engineering). + The scope of the problems you’re solving is not increasing, maybe you need to learn a new skill to make that happen. - If you have administered a system but never designed and deployed it, moving into a consulting role focused on this system’s use across many customer environments can get you more experience as an option. - Get to know your technical leads, and figure out how you can help them. Maybe part of what they need to do can be delegated to you. - Could you shadow the technical lead or ask to be part of some of the planning sessions they have to lead? Learning from the technical lead can help you build relatable skills to take on that role someday. * Here are a couple of recommendations for more detail on the technical lead / tech lead role: + Episode 278 – Uncovering Empathy: The Greatest Skill of an Inclusive Leader with Marni Coffey (1/3) – Marni Coffey spoke about progressing into a technical lead role in IT Operations + Episode 246 – Learning to Lead and a Culture of Excellence with Dr. Sirisha Kuchimanchi (2/3) – Sirisha discusses being a technical lead / team lead in this episode
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Have you developed a personal narrative covering the important accomplishments in your career? Contrary to what many people think, our work does not speak for itself. We have to speak for our work. Jason Belk, our guest in episode 284, used writing to prepare his own narrative before sharing it verbally the first time, and he has continued to iterate on that narrative over time.
In this episode you’ll hear reasons technologists should build a portfolio of work much like an artist. We’ll hear how Jason built his own portfolio of work through the lens of his time working at Cisco and Network to Code. Jason will discuss how each job change has been a chance to focus more of his time on something he enjoys and what he likes about working in developer relations. You will also hear tips for detecting stress and advice on preparing for layoff situations.
Original Recording Date: 06-28-2024
Jason Belk is a Senior Technical Advocate at Cisco and someone who tries to be a constant learner. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Jason, check out Episode 283.
Topics – Demonstrating Experience with a Portfolio of Work, Building a Public Profile and Developing a Narrative, Network to Code, A Course Builder, Noticing Stress, The Return to Cisco, The Constant Iteration, Thoughts on Layoffs2:56 – Demonstrating Experience with a Portfolio of Work* Nick has spoken with a number of people who ran into issues not having experience at the scale a company wants or not having any experience in a production environment. + “I think just like artists have a portfolio of their work online, you as a technical person, if you want to be directing your own career, should have a portfolio of your work. And that looks different for different roles.” – Jason Belk + For example, Jason wrote a course in markdown and put it on his GitHub, which led to a job opportunity outside of Cisco. + There are many free and low cost options that can allow us to gain experience with a technology like containers, public cloud (AWS), etc. - Cisco has built in lab environments for their courses. - Cisco DevNet has reservable sandbox environments to play around with network automation technologies as an example. - If we take one of these demo environments and try to extend the scenario given as a learning opportunity, it could add to our portfolio. - “…Finding ways of taking the existing task that you’re familiar with and then expanding on that and then documenting that into your portfolio…. That’s a huge part for me – finding ways of taking these concepts and then continuing to incrementally extend them in ways that other people can reproduce.” – Jason Belk - For example, we can include things like scripts to automate tasks and specific configurations of containers we used to accomplish tasks in our portfolio. Documenting these items as well are part of portfolio building. - Production will look different depending on the environment you’re in. When Jason worked as part of Cisco IT’s network operations team, they had 10,000 network devices (across routers, switches, and access points), which doesn’t include any devices connected to each of those network devices. These devices were spread across 600 sites. There’s no way Jason could have reproduced this kind of environment on his own outside of working in that environment. - The size of a network would determine how many employees are required to manage it. Jason suggests looking at job descriptions to understand the size of an environment a network engineer would be responsible for managing and the specific skills needed (i.e. understanding of specific routing protocols etc.). This information can be used to help us focus our efforts to build or grow a portfolio of work. - “What are people expecting right now, and how many of those things do I know? And if you’re seeing trends among those, start building scenarios that allow you to do that at scale for yourself at a scale that makes sense. You don’t need to have 10,000 devices, but you probably want more than 5.” – Jason Belk * We should ask about scale in interviews if things are not clear to determine if we are in over our heads from a scale perspective. * How can we communicate the scale of our experience in an honest way and still hope to get the job? + If asked specifically about scale of experience, be honest. But it might not make sense to volunteer weakness pre-emptively unless you have specific concerns. + It is likely you will be able to figure things out and will get some help from others on the team to understand scaling issues that might be outside your experience. + Reflecting once more on his time in network operations for Cisco, Jason spoke to the challenge of needing to update software on network devices all over the world. It was the nature of the connections that presented a challenge and not just the sheer number of network devices. - When updating devices on unreliable connections (i.e. intermittent connectivity, low bandwidth / throughput), software transfer would start over if interrupted, and product managers only working in test labs did not take this into consideration. Jason ended up giving product teams feedback based on the challenges he and others on the team encountered. - “I think there are just certain things that you will learn once you’re on the job, but you need to be aware and keen and looking out for those problems.” – Jason Belk - Jason mentioned having someone from Cisco’s technical support on the team who had been troubleshooting various problems for years and knew what to look for to build a more resilient solution. - A number of certification exams have troubleshooting scenarios, and these scenarios should cover issues that could actually happen in a production environment.
9:43 – Building a Public Profile and Developing a Narrative* At what point in his career did Jason start building a public profile / public body of work? + About 5 years after Jason started at Cisco, he started building a public profile (after 3 years as an analyst and 2 years as a network engineer). + Jason wanted to be open to other opportunities, and he had a lot of good mentors in his life at the time. He doesn’t specifically remember someone recommending he build a public profile. + Jason says this is not as common as it should be on the technical side because people tend to assume their work will speak for itself. This is a poor assumption! - Jason emphasizes the importance of communicating our accomplishments to our managers because they will forget. We cannot expect to be promoted if we don’t share the work we are doing with our manager. + If you want to protect yourself from layoffs and continue to get pay raises as you add more value… - “If you’re a constant learner, listening to a podcast like this, listening to someone like us talk about career development, you’re already in a fraction of the percent that is caring about their job more than most people. If you’re listening to this podcast you’re probably somebody who should be building some type of public profile. It doesn’t have to be a GitHub profile like I was talking about…. You can just blog. You can say ‘this is what I’ve learned from project management, this is what I’ve learned from leadership, this is what I’ve learned from conflict resolution. There’s so many different directions even apart from the technical side that you could be sharing your learnings, and then that gives you an artifact then you then can share with other people regardless of their background. And also, it gives you confidence that you can see over time how you’ve grown.” – Jason Belk + We’ve talked about taking notes and regularly documenting our work on the show. Jason highlights that this a is good exercise to prepare for things like yearly performance reviews and evaluations. It will also be easier to submit an updated resume when we see a job that looks appealing. - “But the meaty stuff, the technical stuff, the stuff that’s going to actually get you the job and get people excited to talk to you…it’s going to be better while you’re freshly working on it. If I tried to retroactively go back and redo all the work that I’ve done over the past ten years on that profile, it would be a Herculean effort and probably would never happen…. Take the time to find a way to document your learnings. It doesn’t have to be eloquent. It doesn’t have to be perfect. And you can always go back and edit it. Nothing is set in stone.” – Jason Belk, on the importance of consistently documenting accomplishments - Writing something on LinkedIn or anywhere else can be changed later. It’s a draft that can be written and rewritten. We can describe an accomplishment differently if that is better suited to showcase experience for a role. Do we at least have our first draft documented somewhere? + Jason says for a platform like LinkedIn, it’s ok to not post whatever you might be thinking. - LinkedIn has become a place for longer form content with more of a shelf life. Jason may post on Twitter to share an initial thought and then build a better draft for LinkedIn later. He likes to use Apple notes to capture ideas from random moments of inspiration before later posting on Twitter. - Jason likes the Software Defined Talk podcast where they talk about living the default lifestyle and the benefits of technology ecosystems. - There are benefits of note taking software on your mobile device to capture and formulate thoughts. - Jason likes to use voice to text as well to get thoughts out of his head. - Nick feels Jason is encouraging us to share refined, complete thoughts on platforms like LinkedIn. We can track these over time to see our own progress, which can spur us to take on new challenges. * “One of the reasons I’m able to come on this podcast and have these great conversations about my career is that this isn’t the first time I’ve had this conversation…. I’ve talked about my career so many times over the years, and I have my own internal narrative…. You kind of fit into a groove after you start explaining things a number of times where it makes it easier then to communicate your value…. You have this narrative in your head that…will help you in those job interview situations, your management conversations when you’re talking promotions, and even just for your own mental health and knowing that what you’re doing is making a difference in whatever area of the world that you’re working in.” – Jason Belk + Situations like the interview or performance review are like presentations we might not be prepared for with a narrative we can tell. Would we prepare just as much for one of these situations as we would for a presentation at a conference? + Jason remembers the first time he shared part of his career story on a podcast. He had a bunch of notes and his resume open to help him deliver the narrative. + “I found a way to write into words what that narrative was, and then that’s the narrative that I’ve been continuing…when I go on and I share with other people the different things that I’ve worked on.” – Jason Belk
17:57 – Network to Code* Jason first worked as an analyst in Cisco IT who moved to network engineering as part of the campus and branch team. He began to do more work with Python and automation and developed the skill of helping other network engineers learn to code. * “I find the most interesting jobs, the most interesting things I get to do in my work, are the ones that I self-direct and suggest to my managers. So I would say if you ever feel like you’re struggling to find interesting work, you should be more proactive in suggesting things that you could be doing.” – Jason Belk + Jason’s manager wanted someone on the team to do automation (which signaled a management priority). He already liked making things more efficient and had a computer science background. + More of Jason’s value was demonstrated through acting as a project manager, a scrum master, a leader, a mentor, and a teacher more so than as a front line network engineer * Jason knew Network to Code was a thought leader in vendor neutral network automation and that they made contributions to the open source community. He was also a member of their Slack community + Jason felt the people at the company were there to do the right thing and solve problems for the tech industry as a whole (not just their customers). + Network to Code did consulting work, but there were no official job openings. Jason had been following them on Twitter. Jason had also read Network to Code founder Jason Edelman’s book on network automation. + When Edelman posted about needing to hire people, Jason sent him a link expressing his interest in teaching and information on his background (including a link to the NSO course on GitHub he had built using markdown). + The process happened quickly, and within a week Jason had interviews and then suddenly left Cisco. * At this point Jason had been at Cisco 7 years and wanted to see if grass was greener outside that bubble. + Leading up to this, management was beginning to focus on areas outside of where Jason was building expertise. A co-worker of Jason’s had recently left Cisco too, and it seemed like the right time to make a move. + “It was a big leap of faith because this was the first job I’d ever taken where I didn’t know anybody in the company. I knew the vibes of the company from being involved in their online Slack community.” – Jason Belk + Jason would move from a 60,000 person company to a company with only 11 people. + This was also a move to working remotely. Jason had been going to an office to work for Cisco in San Jose, but he would be the first west coast hire for Network to Code. + Jason worked remotely and traveled often. He would visit customer sites, building and delivering course curriculum. - Jason mentions this really helped build his presentation skills. In many ways it was sink or swim. + Joining Network to Code was a big risk for Jason. He was leaving people and a culture he knew for a much smaller company that was still in the startup phase. Despite this, Jason built a number of great relationships at Network to Code. * After working for Network to Code for a couple of years, Jason was starting to get burned out. + He noticed marital problems and that he was gaining weight. + Jason was also working constantly. A consulting company commits to specific deliverables for their customers, and in many ways this creates a culture of excellence that can make it hard to achieve the balance one might want between work and personal life. + Jason and his wife also wanted to have children, and when an opportunity to return to Cisco presented itself, it made sense to pursue going back to the big company.
22:38 – A Course Builder* The NSO course began as a way to document learnings for Jason’s local team in San Jose. Jason had a co-worker who knew GitHub and markdown really well, allowing Jason to learn it along with him. Once the course was built and presented to Jason’s manager, the manager wanted to use it to train people in Cisco IT from other locations. + They were given 3-6 months to build the training and had setup a lab to go along with it. The plan was to dedicate 3 days each to train co-workers in London and Bangalore, India. They delivered the training successfully in both locations with Jason and his two co-workers taking turns presenting. The trainings went well and were extremely relevant to those who attended. The content was built by network engineers like Jason from scenarios in tickets they had received. + Jason stresses the importance of building relevance into what you’re teaching, especially if you’re teaching your own team. + Jason asked to publish the course online after all trainings were delivered. His co-workers who helped develop the course had lost interest and moved on to other things, being less focused on teaching than he was. Jason ended up putting it on his GitHub profile. The course gained so much popularity that it was later used to influence the way Cisco looked at future NSO courses. Jason mentions people reached out to him for years about the course, even asking that its content be updated. + The key was supportive management behind this work who were willing to pay for travel. Jason and his co-workers were willing to travel internationally to deliver the training. It was a great experience to go visit international co-workers in person in places like India, where Jason had never previously been. + It can be hard to build connections with co-workers in such different time zones. The time difference between the US and India creates minimal overlap in working hours. * Nick can see how the role at Network to Code with a greater focus on instruction and teaching was a logical progression path for Jason. + Jason says he was able to grow and learn so much while working at Network to Code, but it was not sustainable based on the way Jason operates his life and how much stress he wants to have at work. + Network to Code also grew in its employees from 11 people to around 50 or 60 during the period Jason worked there. + Jason might have stayed there longer if a perfect opportunity had not come his way. + Working for a smaller company allows you to sometimes have more autonomy or take something and run with it (less rigidity of silos compared to a large company)
27:09 – Noticing Stress* How did Jason notice that he was overstressed and near burnout? + The first signs were physical. Jason was gaining weight even before Network to Code in his role as part of the network operations team. - One way we can pinpoint stress is to think about whether we are seeking comfort in unhealthy foods or substances as an outlet for our situational stress. - Jason also tells us it was stressful to serve in an on-call rotation as a network engineer. While some people really enjoy this type of work, it was not for him. - Our physical health is a good measure of whether we may be under stress. Pay attention to whether it has changed. + Jason describes the blank check exercise for family / friends. Ask them to give you candid 1-1 feedback on how they think you are doing based on everything you talk about. + “Look at your text conversations with your family, friends. Are you treating people in a way that is respectful and calm and collected, or are you always jumping from one thing to the next, putting out fires? I mean, we all have situations where we have crunch time, but day after day, week after week, month after month…is the house always burning? And is it always top of mind for you?” – Jason Belk - If work is always tough, it may be a systemic issue that needs to be addressed in a conversation with your manager. Or, maybe it’s time to make some kind of career change. + Nick suggests maybe we should look at the sentiment of our social media posts as well similar to what Jason said about our text messages. - “One of the beliefs I have from my own personal studies is…your words are a reflection of your inner thoughts. It’s an outflow of whatever your heart is filled with.” – Jason Belk - We should also consider outside influences and how they can affect the way we act and what we might post on a social media platform.
30:21 – The Return to Cisco* We spoken with others who have left and returned to a company. What did Jason hope might be different when he returned to Cisco? + Jason took comfort in returning to known a positive company culture. + Cisco leadership have been consistent over time in a message of empathy for customers and employees alike. Jason had already worked with so many great people during his previous role at Cisco. + Jason was able to find a company where the rhetoric from leadership aligned with Jason’s values and how he wanted to live his life. + This was also a good work / life balance opportunity for Jason. He had relocated while at Network to Code from San Jose, CA to Reno, NV and could easily re-enter Cisco as an employee working in Nevada. - Relocating while working for the same company could prove challenging and take a lot of time. + Sometimes leaving a company will accelerate compensation raises more than staying will. Jason was able to increase his salary by leaving and then returning at a faster rate than yearly raises would have done. + Upon returning to Cisco, Jason brought more relevant skills after working with many customers in the industry at Network to Code. + Jason and his wife wanted to start a family, and he wanted to work remotely. + Jason wanted more of a strategic role focused on the work he enjoyed. + To follow the story, Jason had been in network operations at Cisco and was doing teaching. He moved out of network operations to focus on teaching and did some consulting for Network to Code. While Jason loved the teaching part of his role at Network to Code, he did not like the traveling and being in the classroom 5 days per week. He did not want to be an instructor when he came back to Cisco - Jason had seen other people working in developer relations roles to help network engineers get started with automation and was looking for something similar. - “That seemed so cool. It seemed like you get to teach, but you don’t have to be…in a classroom and you don’t have to be traveling all the time. You can just be doing the teaching part and influencing people without having to commit to all the other baggage that made it stressful for me. Finding what worked, what I enjoyed about my job, and then honing in on the parts that sparked the most joy, that gave me the most satisfaction, that decreased my stress the most… Each job I got, I got a little bit closer to doing what I really love doing.” – Jason Belk - After starting as an IT analyst Jason wanted to be more technical and became a network engineer. After not enjoying an on-call role in network operations, he wanted to focus on teaching. Part of developer relations were things like community building and content creation, which Jason was already doing on the side. + Though he wasn’t really looking for a job, Jason saw a posting for a NSO BU developer advocate, and he felt like the job description was written for him. After contacting a friend for validation, Jason applied. + Jason came back to Cisco multiple pay grades higher than when he had left and was able to work out of his home in Reno, NV. + “Whenever I move I always try to ensure that I’m making more money, and sometimes that requires some push back.” – Jason Belk + Jason shares the story of having to push back on artificial boundaries when changing roles. We can be confident in our skills when negotiating an offer, especially if we don’t need to make a change because we are happy.
35:52 – The Constant Iteration* The constant iteration of Jason’s jobs reminded Nick of our conversation about taking something and extending to just outside your reach – how does he determine what the most interesting thing is and if it has changed? + Jason says this happens more in hindsight and not by looking for it in the moment. + We can set a directional goal and know it will take some time to get there. But we should take the time to enjoy all the little steps on the way to getting there. - For Jason, he wanted to be in developer relations but knew he would need to build the skills to get there like teaching, documentation, and getting more technical. - Spending too long in the same role (i.e. 7-10 years) might not challenge you to learn new skills. - Jason has switched jobs roughly every 3 years. It takes him about a year to feel like he has his bearings within an organization. Jason would use the 2nd year to understand how to add value and where his unique skillset can be used to fill gaps. The next step is bring in insights and value from outside the organization. - Jason has been in the training and certification role for almost 3 years and recently attended a Splunk conference. He shares the story of meeting someone who created a lot of helpful Splunk content and suggested they stay in contact to continue momentum with Splunk content. - Jason tells us to pay attention to those special connections like the one described above and that we should make sure to follow up. - Jason uses his outlook calendar for a time tracker and an aspirational action item list. - “Just like I would schedule a meeting with somebody to solve a problem, I schedule a meeting with myself to accomplish something.” – Jason Belk - At the end of the day Jason might put tasks on his calendar to highlight what he completed during the course of a day. The tasks and appointments can be easily exported to show progress and accomplishments over time. It’s great as a way to document work and aggregate it over a quarter or even longer periods. And, it helps us build that narrative we spoke about earlier.
41:52 – Thoughts on Layoffs* Jason joined Cisco right after the housing crisis of 2008 / 2009. There was a significant layoff right after his joining the team. + Jason saw great people with good skills get laid off, and he learned that people can be laid off even if they are doing a good job. Entire divisions may be laid off for business reasons, for example. + “I don’t want to be in a position where I’m getting impacted by a layoff and I’m scrambling.” – Jason Belk + Seeing the layoffs made Jason first seek to always keep his skills technically relevant to the industry. - This is part of the reason Jason went for his CCNA (happened not long after seeing that layoff). + Jason also developed a willingness to take on new challenges that are improving the business and a willingness to make changes for teams and companies when it makes sense. + As a way to force himself to be open to other jobs ever few years, Jason has a mental mantra of laying himself off every 3 years. In periods of developing expertise from intermediate to advanced or advanced to expert, it’s more like 5 years. + “My advice to anyone in a large corporation is be building a plan for yourself both financially with a savings and then from a skills and career and relationship perspective (so) that you’re not surprised if you get the boot and you’re not scrambling on LinkedIn.” – Jason Belk, on layoffs + Maintain relationships with people you have worked with over the years. Don’t just come to them when you need something! - “Our relationship meant more than just that one job.” – Jason Belk, on maintaining relationships with former co-workers * Maybe a focus on preparing for these situations can take our mind off thinking about being in those situations + Jason recommends we change the narrative from something negative to something positive. - Negative narrative – “I might get laid off and lose my job, and that’s frightening.” - Positive narrative – “I might get laid off, so I should enjoy it while it lasts and do all I can to continueto grow myself in my career so that if that happens to me, I’m ready to go. I’m not just scrambling because I didn’t know this could possibly happen…I’m learning new skills. I’m connecting with people. I’m adding value to the business. So if they for one reason or another push me out the door I’m hot off the press and ready to rumble.” * To follow up with Jason on this conversation, you can find him: + On LinkedIn + On Twitter – @renobelk + Jason’s Linktree has links to his GitHub profile, his Cisco U tutorials, videos he has done on YouTube, and information on how to get access to free tutorials.
Mentioned in the Outro* Jason wrote down his narrative before sharing it verbally. Writing is a thinking process to get us to a more complete thought. + Jason used writing to build courses and prepare for presentations. + We can build our narrative by communicating our accomplishments in written and verbal form. * If you find your text messages and social media posts are negative or focused on struggle, maybe it’s time to start journaling with an exercise like morning pages to get those thoughts out for processing in a more private way.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
How could the skills learned as a video game tester be applied to different roles in technology? Understanding and documenting the steps needed to reproduce an error in a video game aren’t so different from understanding the steps to perform a specific task like removing malware from a laptop or replacing a hard drive. Jason Belk, our gest this week in episode 283, has consistently utilized the skill of building checklists over the course of his career, using them to develop and deliver instructional technology courses and to prepare for presentations at a conference.
In this discussion you’ll hear how Jason’s internship at Electronic Arts shaped what he wants from an employer, the experience he gained working in IT Student Services, how he landed a job at Cisco, and why he wanted to become a network engineer. Jason will give us advice on how to choose a technical certification and how we can each play a part to build talent in the tech industry.
Original Recording Date: 06-28-2024
Topics – Meet Jason Belk, Computer Science and Experience as a Video Game Tester, Working in IT Student Services, Learning to Give Presentations, Working on the Cisco on Cisco Team, Pursuing the CCNA, Technical Certifications in a Shifting Industry, Building Talent in Technology2:23 – Meet Jason Belk* Jason Belk is a Senior Technical Advocate at Cisco and someone who tries to be a constant learner. + In this role, Jason is tasked to be a voice of customers and learners and gives feedback to teams at Cisco who are building platforms and content for training and certifications. Jason also builds content like videos, blogs, and tutorials to get people interested in Cisco’s training and certification offerings. - See also Introducing the Tech Advocate Team. + Jason is also tasked with community building like you would see in a developer relations role, and this is his second stint in developer relations. + “Developer relations is a newer iteration of what people have traditionally seen as a technical marketing engineer type role.” – Jason - Jason feels there has been an industry need to step beyond just a technical marketing engineer (or TME) and be more relevant to customers by bringing their perspectives and feedback to product teams. This can be achieved through activities like content creation, community building, ownership and improvement of documentation, and creating a better overall user experience. + In the past Jason worked in developer relations for Cisco’s NSO or Network Services Orchestrator. - Jason worked under the product manager for NSO at that time and sat in the team meetings. After being charged with improving the user experience, Jason worked with a group of contractors to transform the documentation for NSO to make it more relevant for users. They built a developer center for NSO so that it was geared less toward software engineers and more toward network engineers who needed to use the product. + In Jason’s current role working with Cisco learning and certifications, he is no longer focused on one specific product but the entire portfolio. - Jason knows he cannot be an expert in everything, but he has experience in network operations and achieved the CCNA earlier in his career also. - Jason is working to turn Cisco’s public-facing presence into “an empathetic learning experience for everybody who’s either already in a Cisco related career or looking to get into it.”
6:54 – Computer Science and Experience as a Video Game Tester* Jason studied computer science because he wanted to be in the video game industry and wanted to play video games for a living. * During his freshman year, Jason did an internship at Electronic Arts. + “My freshman year summer I got a huge amount of experience in terms of what it means to work in corporate life.” – Jason Belk, on his internship at Electronic Arts + When you are trying to figure out what to do for an occupation as a young person, Jason tells us you do not think about companies and their cultures. + “The culture for the team I joined was not maintaining healthy work life boundaries and mental health boundaries that I wanted to have for the rest of my life…. I want to be in tech, but I don’t want to burn myself out.” – Jason Belk + Jason would work nights and weekends 12-14 hours per day all summer, executing and doing a good job but knowing deep down this kind of schedule was not for him long term. - Some people have such a passion for the gaming industry that they want to put in all of the extra hours and make work their number 1 priority. - Jason makes his first priority followed by his surrounding community (friends, church), and then his job third. - Jason wanted to find work at a company that did something he was passionate about but that encourages / supports mental health and work-life balance. * What was involved in video game testing specifically? + When Jason first applied at Electronic Arts, it was for a software engineering internship to align with his field of study. After hearing nothing for 2 months, he applied for the game tester position. + Game testers required critical thinking and documentation skills. Testers were tasked with using a bug tracking software to categorize errors in game play. + Each day testers would be assigned a specific part of a game to test for bugs (usually a section that would be impacted by an upcoming software release), but it would be delegated by a manager / supervisor. If there was no directive given by software engineering teams, testers would be playing through the entire game and trying to break things. * Any slow downs in game play, crashes, or visual glitches would need to be reported. Testers would need to share the steps needed to reproduce the issue and determine how often the issue could be reproduced. * The most challenging issues to find were those that only presented themselves when you played through an entire game. * Working in this environment gave Jason a mindset focused on critical thinking and reproducing errors. Jason feels like this set him up for success in future opportunities. + Jason tells the story of walking around the Santa Clara Library with his father when they were approached by a gentleman who, after a brief conversation, offered Jason the chance to work in IT Student Services. Jason said yes. + “Whenever I see an opportunity come to me, if it’s reasonable and I have the time for it, whether that’s coffee with somebody or a potential job opportunity, I never shoot them down outright. I just say ‘let’s hear how it goes.’ That actually helped setup one of the things for the rest of my career.” – Jason Belk, on new opportunities * Did Jason have to learn to communicate differently as a result of the need for heavy documentation in his role at Electronic Arts? + Jason says he was a strong writer going into the role – articulate and precise. Poor writing skills could be a barrier to entry for some people. + In any job where we work with other people, communication needs to take place. Jason has worked remotely since 2017 and is used to communicating expectations, deliverables, the things he is struggling with, and what he needs to complete. + The game testing job didn’t give Jason the writing skills but rather an opportunity to use those skills and sharpen them in a corporate environment. * The environment at Electronic Arts wasn’t a toxic culture, but the vision was executed such that one could easily see the expectation to put in as many extra hours as is possible (at least from the perspective of game testers). * “People want to make work the number 1 in their life permanently, and then you just go from project to project to project…and then suddenly you retire…. For some people that’s a cost they are willing to make because they love their work so much. But I think for me, knowing myself, I love my work, but it’s definitely not 100% of what I do.” – Jason Belk, reflecting back on the culture at Electronic Arts
15:04 – Working in IT Student Services What were some of the things Jason did as part of the role in IT Student Services that he really enjoyed? + The manager of this team (Michael) wasn’t a student and was a military veteran. Contrary to what we might think for someone managing a team of students who would be replaced with new students within a few years, Jason tells us his manager was concerned about the development and happiness of all team members, wanting each person to grow in technical skills and presentation skills. + Jason says having a manager who really cared about him as a person and modeled good leadership skills made a big impact. Each team member was given the opportunity and the support to try things just outside their technical reach. + Coming into this team, Jason had built his own computer for gaming but not much more than that. He had never removed viruses or formatted hard drives, for example. + The manager would have senior members of the team mentor the more junior members to teach new skills. + If a customer was treating a member of the IT Student Services team unprofessionally or had unreasonable expectations, Jason’s manager would step in to help de-escalate or reset expectations. * How well aligned to computer science was the work Jason was doing in IT Student Services? + “I actually felt like my time in IT Student Services was more useful than most of the classes…. I think just the curriculum and the way it’s structured is supposed to give you a little bit of everything. Especially at an undergraduate level, you walk in with no experience, and you walk out with enough experience to hopefully start a job somewhere.” – Jason Belk + Jason mentions there were a number of programming courses in different languages required for his computer science course of study, but he didn’t necessarily know which would be the most useful or applicable with no other experience in the field. + In IT Student Services, it was very clear what worked and did not work, what was useful and not useful, because Jason could see the impact on experience of the end user. + “I have a skill that every time this comes up I can now apply that skill to that situation.” – Jason Belk, on building repeatable skills while in IT Student Services * Nick says the development of checklists or processes (a series of steps) for different tasks is sort of like the next iteration of reproducing the steps needed to hit a video game bug. Being able to develop these checklists is a skill that can be leveraged when we venture into a new area. Did Jason continue this later in his career? + “I think the way in which those checklists happen has become less and less formal over the years as I’ve kind of internalized my own checklist for how I operate, but it gives me a sense of comfort….” – Jason Belk + Jason gives the example of not having done a conference talk until a few years ago. His experience as an instructor for Network to Code gave him the skills to build a class curriculum. Jason developed a checklist for building and executing course curriculum. - One part of the checklist was the flow of the material in the course. As long as he knew the material well enough he could speak off the cuff when needed as certain topics came up. - Another aspect of courses were technical demos. Jason liked to demonstrate what he was working on step by step and explain any assumptions. - The skill of understanding presentation flow and understanding demo flow from teaching courses had to be used together to re-contextualize the material for a 45-minute conference talk.“That helped me a lot because before I taught a lot of classes, I didn’t really have the confidence to know the vibes I would need and the mental checklists I would need to just walk up on stage and start talking.” – Jason Belk
21:21 – Learning to Give Presentations* In IT Student Services, the manager had formal team trainings. During these meetings, senior members of the team would present to junior team members for educational purposes and as an exercise in presentation skills. + Usually the presentations would focus on different scenarios one might encounter as an employee working in IT Student Services (i.e. removing malware from a laptop, etc.). + The manager would coach team members before a presentation to understand the flow of the presentation and so that they knew his expectations for what needed to be communicated. * The first time Jason was asked to do a presentation, he felt utter fear. + Any time Jason does a presentation, he is excited to share the content, but Jason also points out gaining expertise required building some habits and confidence over time. Jason refers to himself as an introvert. + Early in his career when first asked to present, Jason did not have habits built or confidence. In those early days, he felt less comfortable just speaking about the topic and relied heavily on flash cards / notes. + There’s an irrational fear that can hit you as a presenter (especially when everyone is looking at you). Jason says we want to deliver an experience that will meet an audience’s expectation. + “I think one of the big things that shifted my mindset for that was realizing that the people in the audience want you to succeed…. They don’t come to the presentation because they want to see you fail. They don’t come to the presentation because they want to see someone who’s nervous and confused and stuttering. Those things can happen. We all have bad days. But, they come to a presentation because they’re eager to learn something new. They’re eager to be entertained. They’re eager to have an experience where it can’t be replicated…. If we’re doing anything live and in person, there is something special about that still that we can’t replicate with technology…. I think for me understanding the specialness if being in person with somebody…and taking that responsibility as a joy and saying ‘I’m here. They want to hear what I’m saying. They want me to succeed….’” – Jason Belk + In presentations, Jason likes to focus on one person at a time as if he were just speaking to them instead of focusing on a large crowd all at once. - We should also understand that some people might not appear happy in an audience for whatever reason (a bad day, natural facial expression that doesn’t appear happy, etc.). They may be having a bad day, and the presenter cannot be psyched out or rattled if this happens. * If someone listening is hesitant to do any kind of presentation, where should they start? + Jason says choose an area that has a small splash radius for damage. Make sure messing up won’t be career limiting. + Consider presenting to your teammates on something you’re learning or an expertise you have. Jason liked to do this kind of thing with his teammates (sharing ideas in a verbal form). - We can build confidence to present by preparing using our writing skills. Jason feels he is stronger in his writing skills. - “A lot of times the things I am comfortable in speaking on, I’ve already spent a lot of time thinking about because I had a written version of that same presentation where I’ve solidified my thoughts in such a way that they have a coherence to them. The process of me synthesizing all those thoughts into a written form to communicate to someone else in a teaching manner gives me the tool to then communicate that to other people.” – Jason Belk + Local meetups are another great chance to present. Even if there is not a meetup for your niche, there is likely a meetup in your area just for technical people or business people. - Jason shares his recent experience at a local meetup. He did not give a talk, but local meetings often have people giving presentations. Find a meetup in your area on meetup.com.
27:34 – Working on the Cisco on Cisco Team* Jason had never heard of Cisco until a friend in the computer engineering program told him about it. This friend had done 2 internships at Cisco, planned to go and work there after graduation, and was doing University recruitment for Cisco. + Jason’s friend seemed very happy with the culture at Cisco. After the experience at Electronic Arts, Jason wanted to work somewhere that valued people. * There were two internship options open at Cisco – one as an IT Analyst and one in Engineering. + Jason was not confident in coding skills and knew he didn’t want to sit in a room and code all day. But, he did want to do something in tech. + When asked if he considered himself a strong coder during an interview, Jason said the following: - “I understand what’s going on but feel like I’m better in positions where I’m explaining the technology and having to translate it between people that are technical and not technical.” - He knew he wasn’t going to be the one to build the next hot iPhone app. + Jason answered honestly and was placed under the manager who had interviewed him. He was an IT Analyst and became part of the Cisco on Cisco team. - The Cisco on Cisco team were IT operations team members who would speak to customers about how Cisco’s technology organization used its own products across datacenter, networking, collaboration, etc. - Jason had a chance to shadow some of the presentations to customers. - “I knew enough to be dangerous from my undergrad, but there’s so much to IT technology that is not covered in the course curriculum as products continually come out and as technology evolves. I was just trying to absorb it all up.” – Jason Belk, on shadowing other members of the Cisco on Cisco team - The types of conversations with customers were not product demonstrations but more focused on the outcomes and results of using Cisco technologies. - Jason remembers getting to travel to other countries and attend conferences as part of the role with the Cisco on Cisco team. - Jason worked the booth at conferences and could have introductory conversations with people about the impact the team was making. Nick sees working the booth as public speaking experience even though it’s a dialogue. Jason points out this kind of experience as another low risk form of public speaking. * Jason’s experience as an IT Analyst gave him enough context to know he wanted to pursue a career focused on networking. He had enjoyed the networking courses as part of his undergraduate work, and working for Cisco post-internship made sense. + A friend of Jason’s was a network engineer inside Cisco, and Jason told his manager he wanted to become more technical and eventually work as a network engineer. + Jason also decided to pursue a CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Associate) certification.
32:52 – Pursuing the CCNA* Since Jason was at Cisco, it was easier to choose the right certification. + He had teammates who held associate and professional level certifications, and they recommended Jason pursue the CCNA as a next step for his career. + Jason remembers one member of the team, Cyrus, would go out of his way to mentor others. Cyrus would take the time to explain concepts on a whiteboard and then have people like Jason teach it back to him for practice. + Jason mentioned he would go and sit in the network team area a couple of times per week to watch them troubleshoot and to absorb what was happening. Even though he didn’t have access to any systems, it was helpful to be there. * How did Jason’s tendency to build checklists translate into learning material for the CCNA? + Jason had a book to guide his studies, but it was hard to find useful resources outside of it. He had never worked on a network device and barely knew how to use a console at this point. + “For me the checklist was finding material that was hands on and demo heavy.” – Jason Belk + The book would give high level concepts but not the practical application of them. + Jason found an online course taught by Chris Bryant that was demo heavy and was a great help. + Jason highlights Cisco U. as a resource listeners can use to find courses that help prepare you for different Cisco certifications (see this link for the full list). + “Having someone who’s able to demonstrate the skills and explain every step of the process was really critical for me because I felt like it wasn’t really clicking when I was just reading the book.” – Jason Belk, on the value of an instructor in his CCNA journey + Getting hands on with the software was a critical step for Jason because he needed to build the muscle memory with the technology before taking the exam. You do not want to be trying to find the right command or syntax in an exam situation. + Jason mentions Cisco Modeling Labs (CML) as a low cost option for hands on self-study. It allows building a virtual networking lab on a laptop without needing a bunch of physical hardware.
38:18 – Technical Certifications in a Shifting Industry* How can the person who wants to get certified decide what area to pursue? + “If you have no preference, pick ones that are relevant to the career you want to be in, even if you’re not there right now.” – Jason Belk, on certifications - When Jason was working on spreadsheets as an IT Analyst, he thought networking was cool and felt it allowed him to understand computers at a deeper level. Jason also knew people who worked in the networking field, and they acted as his mentors. If he had known people in other fields, his career may have turned out differently. + Jason would encourage us to evaluate the relationships with others in fields we might want to pursue and the opportunity to further build relationships with people in an industry of interest. + We can look at current job descriptions and see what certifications are expected for different roles of interest. + Pick the right certification based on your experience. If you are new to tech or have no experience in an area, start small with a course Coursera or Udemy to gauge your interest. + If a course doesn’t quite click or help you understand the concepts, try different instructors before moving in a different direction. + “Do you have the passion? Do you have the interest? Do you have the relationships? And are you going to make money with it?” – Jason Belk, on deciding an area for certification + Jason would also encourage we do some research on technology trends. What is becoming more popular, and what is dying off, for example? Python and Go Lang continue to gain popularity. + “IT organizations don’t change that quickly, and they don’t change that much…. Realize that not every career is going to be doing the latest and greatest technology, but you want to be building skills, getting certified on technologies that are relevant to where the direction is going. Also, networking itself is foundational to so many other areas. If you understand networking it helps you understand security. It helps you definitely understand cloud much better than a lot of people.” – Jason Belk * How are certifications / certification programs reviewed over time? + Part of Jason’s role within the certification group is being the voice of the customer and understanding industry trends well enough to weigh in on changes to programs. + Earlier in 2024, Cisco updated the list of topics on the CCNA blueprint. - Jason was a part of the team having the discussions about what needed to change. - For example, the team wanted to ask something about generative AI but needed to determine what that should look like. + It’s also important to understand what products customers are actually using. Jason mentions the team has established open lines of communication with Cisco product teams in a regular cadence to align on and understand product roadmaps. - Cisco certifications get a minor update each year and then can have a major update every 2 years. Check out the CCNA Minor Update v 1.1 summary of changes. - Puppet and Chef were highly emphasized on the CCNA exam in previous years, but this year it’s been changed to focus on Ansible and Terraform based on customer relevance and mindshare.
42:21 – Building Talent in Technology* How can we each do our part to bring fresh talent into network engineering? + “…The social avenues you have, if you understand how those industries work, it’s partially your responsibility to educate people on how cool it is to work in our industry.” – Jason Belk + Jason tells us people might not see the enterprise side of technology jobs if they don’t work in tech. They may only see the consumer facing technologies and think that is all there is. + “I feel like people have taken for granted so much of the transformation that’s happened on the consumer side, they don’t realize what’s happening behind the scenes on the business side. So it’s our job for people who are in these fields to let them know all the stuff that’s happening behind the scenes and the job opportunities that are there.” – Jason Belk + When people think about changing careers, they think in terms of what they know, which might only be consumer facing technologies. Technology and our reliance on data has changed so much over time. People do not realize the variety of roles available within IT, and we can do our part to educate. + If you don’t live near a large city, remote work presents an opportunity to work in technology. + Jason tells we can view our jobs as way to provide for our families by doing something in which we find value. + Part of the mission of our show is to educate others on just how many other jobs they might be qualified for based on previous experience. + Jason was at a meetup group recently, and a young woman shared her excitement for coding with him. She had been working as a medical assistant, was taking JavaScript courses on the side, and needed some advice. Jason emphasized the importance of - A willingness to learn - A willingness to try new things - A willingness to figure out what does and does not work - Understanding what skills are marketable + While JavaScript is popular in a lot of consumer facing websites, Jason encouraged the young lady to consider learning Python first. He found Python less confusing than JavaScript. And, there are so many tools built on Python that make business processes more efficient (i.e. ways to manipulate spreadsheets, reading e-mails, scraping websites, etc.). - One of Jason’s first Python projects was something he built to download inspiring messages from some of his favorite speakers. - “You need to find something that’s related to your hobbies and interests that is just outside of your reach. And I think that’s a really hard place when you’re first beginning to know where that point is.” – Jason Belk, recommendation to a meetup group attendee on finding a good project - Jason shares how one of his small projects with Python expanded from initially pulling specific inspirational quotes to randomizing them. He recommended the young woman at the meetup use Python to build a small project to interact with a web resource and extract some information from it. - Jason also mentions knowing someone who likes to extract data from NASA APIs
Mentioned in the Outro* Nick wonders if exposure to the value of teaching like Jason had in IT Student Services and when he was working to become a network engineer had an impact on Jason’s selection of roles with a teaching element. * Preparing for presentations can be a checklist for us just like it is for Jason. We can start by writing an abstract for the presentation (a few sentences) and making an outline to add high level points / concepts to cover. This provides more structure when we start to which we can add detail over time to help us prepare and deliver. * You might need to take multiple passes at a subject to determine if it really interests you. This could be taking multiple courses or seeking out only the mediums through which you learn best. * We can leverage industry relationships to help us make decisions about technical projects in addition to guidance for selecting certifications. + If you are someone in technology looking to make a shift into a different role, maybe your technical project should be partially focused in a new area you want to learn but have a component of an area you know well. This can make it easier to branch into a new area without getting overwhelmed and might be a way to keep yourself motivated and interested. * We are all responsible for educating others on working in technology. It’s important that we talk to others about what we do and why we chose to work in this industry as a way of getting more talent into our industry.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
When should we adjust from focusing in a specialized area to something more broad? Amy Arnold left technical consulting because she missed working on “all the networking things.” The former network engineer who worked in public sector would boomerang back for a time before taking a role at Fortinet in pre-sales. The theme of technical exploration in Amy’s career story continues this week.
In episode 282 you’ll hear how project management skills have helped Amy Arnold progress as a technical consultant, in her role as a network engineer in the public sector, and in her current role as a pre-sales engineer at Fortinet. Also, we have some good discussions on effective communication through writing and the value of participating in technical communities.
Original Recording Date: 05-30-2024
Amy Arnold is a Pre-Sales Systems Engineer at Fortinet. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Amy on her early career getting into networking, check out Episode 281
Topics – Applying the Skills of Project Management, Shifting from Troubleshooter to Architect, Picking Pre-Sales vs. Post-Sales, Moving to Fortinet and Working for a Tech Vendor, Writing and Communication, Technical Community Involvement2:47 – Applying the Skills of Project Management* How did project management training help Amy in the role as a consultant? + It definitely helped. Even though Amy did not enjoy a formal role as a project manager, she tells us using project methodologies and managing your own projects is essential for the network engineer and especially for the consultant. + Because a consultant is “working on someone else’s stuff,” they need to understand and communicate timelines, deliverables, expectations, resource constraints (i.e. people), and dependencies (i.e. network readiness). Project planning skills are extremely helpful. + In Amy’s role as a consultant, she acted in both a pre-sales and post-sales capacity, participating in both the sales process and post-sales implementation. - It is important to understand the role of a consultant could mean both or it could mean only one of pre-sales / post-sales. Read job descriptions carefully! - Amy worked for a medium-sized reseller in this consulting role. In the smaller or medium companies, you may perform both functions (pre-sales and post-sales). In larger companies a person may be dedicated to either pre-sales or post-sales. * Was this Amy’s first exposure to pre-sales? + Yes – the closest experience Amy had before this was selling her projects to city management and to different departments to get them approved for funding. Her input into any quotes or statements of work from vendors or resellers was slightly different than working for the vendor or reseller to generate those same deliverables to a customer. + Amy says she had done project requirement gathering and meeting with her internal customers on a smaller scale for the city, but in being a consultant she did this for many different customers. * Would Amy have appreciated a manager managing her with project management methodologies? + Amy tells us it depends. She mentions project managers would get assigned to large projects. + Some people just want to be responsible for the technology and get told to “show up,” preferring to be managed more closely within the overall project (possibly due to a lack of overall skillset). Amy has the project management skills and prefers to have more control of how things go from a project standpoint. + No matter what, if something came across as micromanagement, Amy would not care for it. + John says this sounds like the way an account manager for a customer might manage someone who is part of a pool of pre-sales engineers, using project management techniques to keep consistent engagement with a customer and making sure timelines are met. + Amy says this may also depend on a person’s workload. If you are overwhelmed by all the technical aspects of working with a customer (i.e. doing both pre-sales and post-sales), it is very welcoming to have someone else handle the “other stuff.” + Amy found a dedicated project manager resource most helpful when there was a need to coordinate with several different people and making sure the right personnel show up at the right time. She would rather build a project plan for an implementation, for example, and let someone else handle the resource coordination. + In Amy’s role as a pre-sales engineer currently, her project plans might not need to be as detailed as someone in a professional services / implementation role would need to be. + Effective project managers according to Amy are most useful when you as a technical resource get overwhelmed and need help re-prioritizing or deciding what can be dropped off the to-do list. - John restates this as having a project manager solely focused on the people and the process (i.e. status of timeline, meetings and activities that need to happen, etc.) rather than being focused on the technology. Amy would prefer someone else deal with these specific items. * John had wondered which skills from obtaining the PMP certification would help a technologist in their career. Even if someone did not work toward and get a certification, there are ways to gain project management knowledge and skills. + We highlight the PMBOK or Project Management Body of Knowledge as a possible resource. + John says there are likely skills from project management someone might highlight as the most valuable to the technologist, even if their primary job skill is not managing projects. + Amy tells us there are a number of things in the project management certification which someone would not have to do very often. She gives the example of calculating critical path and says what is more important is to ensure we have enough time to complete everything when there are dependencies on other people. + The project management certification goes into detail understanding risk of failure or a timeline slipping. + The terminology isn’t as important as understanding the concepts such as the drop dead date for a project and the risk of any steps or tasks within the projects not being completed according to Amy.
12:10 – Shifting from Troubleshooter to Architect* Amy made the move from someone making a case to decision makers for a project within a local municipality to helping someone put together a project plan, helping understand scope, and maybe building an architecture. What was the progression like going from the troubleshooter of things and systems to building architectures for things and systems, and how can people make the shift to thinking more about the architectural system implications of a new project? + “I think there is a reason that solution architect roles are usually at the top of the advancement in career…because it takes some time, and you need to see some things before you really understand why this is best practice or why things are designed this way…. But to really design a solution that meets people’s needs, that’s addressing the problems that they have or the things that they are going to encounter takes more than just ‘I understand how VRRP works and failover.’ You’re really going to have to understand what they want to fail over, under what circumstances will failure happen…. And designing for those particular problems I think takes time and practice. I don’t know that I could ever mark a place in my career where I was just like ‘today I got it. Today I’m an architect.’” – Amy Arnold - Some of the above is book knowledge and understanding technical requirements of implementing a solution. - Amy feels like it can take a couple of years to know what you’re going to find out and how a solution should be designed. She highlights the importance of asking good questions in situations you don’t know well to think through how it needs to be designed. This thinking and questioning is you relying on previous practice and experience. - Doing a lot of reading is a way to help us gain knowledge. Amy mentions there are many networking textbooks, blog posts, and videos that helped her make the shift faster.
15:15 – Picking Pre-Sales vs. Post-Sales* Nick mentions this is building muscle and knowledge based on exposure to different areas. As a consultant, Amy was on the pre-sales side and the post-sales side. What made her want to go from doing both to needing to pick one? + “I actually really liked both sides of the equation – designing it and implementing it. But one of the reasons I went back to the city I had worked for was because I was missing doing all of the networking things.” – Amy Arnold, on being a consultant and moving out of that role to an eventual pre-sales role + Amy had developed skills and deep expertise in voice technologies (VOIP), but she missed being able to work on the entire network like routing, switching, voice, and building cohesive solutions. + In her role at Fortinet in pre-sales, Amy doesn’t have a production environment like before, but she has a lab in which she can tinker, test theories, and break things. + “I’ve always been a ‘I still want to tinker’ kind of person, even in a solutions architect type role.” – Amy Arnold - Amy mentions some people move into the architecture role and want to avoid any hands on keyboard work. That is not the case for her. - One of the reasons people can design solutions well is the experience doing the implementation and seeing what doesn’t work. There are reasons behind the way things are designed. - It’s important to test theories to see if they work the way you expect so that you don’t become “all theory and no practice” as Amy refers to it. * John points out the interesting parallel to Amy’s previous comment about the most well-rounded network engineers starting off in help desk. Working the help desk means you have seen things go wrong in multiple different ways. Being someone in post-sales and implementation allows you to see many ways in which a pre-sales architecture can go wrong.
19:26 – Moving to Fortinet and Working for a Tech Vendor* After a long stint back in public sector, Amy had seen many things and felt like it was time to do something different. * Amy heard about an opening in DFW (Dallas / Fort Worth) in the SLED vertical at Fortinet. She had many years of experience working with Fortinet’s Fortigate technologies. In addition to that, Amy loved the public sector mission (which aligns to the SLED customer focus). + Amy decided to apply for the role, and as of this recording, she has been at Fortinet for 4 years. + “I love it because…they have all the Forti-things. And so I’m still doing wireless, route / switch, security…there’s even some voice in there…. So I’m still getting to do the things I love, but nobody is calling me at 3 AM because I can’t wreck production. It’s a really nice balance of being able to do solution architecture, still be hands on, still get into that holistic view, and it’s security first…. It feels like a nice culmination of the things I’ve done in my career to have this role.” – Amy Arnold, on making the move from public sector network operations to pre-sales at Fortinet + The fact that security is no longer an afterthought is very refreshing to Amy. Throughout a large part of her time as a network engineer, security was an afterthought. + Amy mentions she has done her share of on-call type work. Now the only things she breaks are in her own lab. * Are there nuances to working for a consulting firm compared to now working for a technology vendor? + Amy was used to being on the consulting side and working with many vendors. Now she is on the vendor side and works with many partners (or resellers). - A reseller or partner can sell many different vendor technologies, so a specific vendor may not be top of mind for them. - Despite Amy’s work in having her end customer as the primary focus, it requires maintaining a relationship with the customer and the partners / resellers who service that customer as well. - Amy has worked on the partner side, so she understands how it works and what life is like for people who work for technology partners / resellers. + Amy says her experience both on the customer side and the partner side help her understand motivations and where to focus her energy. + In this discussion we are defining a partner as a company that can resell vendor technologies and provide services to deploy / manage a solution that contains that technology. - These could be referred to as channel partner, consulting firm, reseller, or VAR (value added reseller). - John mentions there are systems integrators that fit into this designation. - Amy tells us most of the partners she works with are resellers. Some but not all can do professional services. - Technology vendors usually have resources dedicated to enabling partners on the technology, but Amy mentions pre-sales engineers like her work with technical counterparts at partners to provide enablement. - When we say PS, we mean professional services, implementation work, and staff augmentations for customers (what we might call a residency). The PS umbrella would include architectural services as well. * How have the PMP skills helped Amy (if at all) in her work as a pre-sales engineer? + “I should never be surprised at how skills you pick up along the way…it’s amazing to me how they get used later in your career. And PMP is one of those….” – Amy Arnold + Amy tells us there is very little micromanaging when you’re in technical pre-sales. - She is paired 1-1 with an account manager that she works with daily. - It’s up to Amy to figure out how to manage things like completing required training, customer appointments, appointments with partners / resellers, etc. - In many ways, it is an unstructured kind of job. Some weeks Amy focuses more on training, and some weeks there may be lots of meetings and no training. - There is a lot of follow up needed in the role. Amy emphasizes the need to check in on customers to see how they are doing, especially if they’ve just purchased something. - “It’s a lot of people management. It’s a lot of project management and study plan management. And nobody’s telling you how to do it and when or how much time you need to spend on anything…. And you really have to be a good planner to do it.” – Amy Arnold + Amy does not work for the account manager but rather with that person. The account manager also has a separate leadership chain from Amy’s leadership chain. - Amy has regular check-ins with her manager and her account manager. There are also check-ins with her team of peers. + Amy tells us communication skills are an important aspect of the role (and not just a PMP skill). Her bachelors degree was in arts and humanities (which contributed to written and verbal communication skills). - “But it is one of those things where when I had an arts and humanities degree and was a law school drop out, it was like, ‘what am I going to do with this?’ And now, through all of the different jobs I’ve had, I realize how important it is to be able to communicate, speak, gather requirements, put things into an orderly thing that people can understand…absolutely vital.” – Amy Arnold, on the importance of communication skills
31:00 – Writing and Communication* John has heard that writing it really effective thought. + “If you just have a thought, and it’s not recorded and never refined and never examined then that’s not really effective thinking.” – John White + Amy would agree with the above. She started blogging at the suggestion of a community member with the intent to get thoughts down in a clear way which would help her remember them. - “One of the lies I tell myself is ‘I’ll remember this later’ and then realize ‘no I didn’t remember it later.’” – Amy Arnold, on writing to help herself remember things - Even if you’re just writing something down for yourself, you have to understand it to write it. And if we write something down that doesn’t make sense, we can rewrite it and refine it until it’s something we understand. - Amy likes to take written notes to help herself study. - Even if we never share them with someone, writing notes in a note app is helpful for remembering and also to help understand concepts. * Did Amy leverage her blog as evidence of effective communication when applying for jobs? + Amy did not write it for this purpose, but when she applied at Fortinet the hiring manager had read her blog, Amy Engineer. It made the hiring process pretty smooth. + “I’d definitely encourage people getting started…not everyone wants to have a social media presence. Not everyone wants to write a blog. And maybe not everyone should. But, I do encourage them to try…even if it’s just to write their own notes in their own format.” – Amy Arnold + Amy thinks people should blog or find some other way of giving back to the greater technical community. So many of us have benefitted from the knowledge shared by others. Consider being more than just an information consumer but rather a producer of information to share with others. + “Start figuring out ways to be coherent in your thinking. If you really think you want to do pre-sales, you have to be able to be put in front of a customer. And I have known so many network engineers who are brilliant, but they can’t hold a conversation. They can’ talk to the customer. They are uncomfortable. They look down. They can’t ask questions…. And maybe this podcast doesn’t show it. I’m completely introverted…completely. I do so many extroverted things it’s insane, but you have to do that in this field. I think you should do that in this field. I think that you will find that the community is worth it.” – Amy Arnold * What is Amy’s advice to those who want to blog? + We should write what we find interesting. It could be something we’re learning or a story we have to tell. + “I haven’t blogged in a while, but when I did blog more consistently, it was still maybe only once a month. That’s all I had time for. But I would have these really interesting stories I’d run into, and those made for great blog posts to bring up different concepts…. I got thrown into the deep end of voice as a network engineer, and I figured I probably wasn’t the only one.” – Amy Arnold - Amy felt what she was writing as a blogger would be helpful to someone. + People don’t just have to blog. They can get involved in a networking user group, post in community forums or a Slack / Discord group to help others, etc. - Posting questions and answering questions in a community forum is still writing. It’s still communication. It’s still formulating thoughts. - Nick feels like every time he writes a post for LinkedIn or an episode summary it brings a new observation on what was discussed that wasn’t in his head during the actual interview. + “I do think you should find that thing that gets you into a community that you are doing something to pay it forward, being able to leverage that knowledge that you’re getting. Maybe it’s mentoring people…. Even if you’re just getting started there are still ways that you can engage with the material and with the people so that you’re really propelling yourself forward and bringing people along with you.” – Amy Arnold - Amy mentions two of the women she is mentoring are now helping each other study and learn. + John says even if you keep what you write completely private, it can become a personal knowledge store. Amy agrees in the value of doing it even if you keep it private like this. - John also has maintained a blog over time and would now and then search for something and end up remembering he had blogged about it. - “And if people feel really nervous about putting themselves out there they should know that everyone feels really nervous about putting themselves out there…. By and large the networking community is super supportive…. If you show any true intent of ‘I just want to understand this,’ people are always reaching out and helping.” – Amy Arnold
39:57 – Technical Community Involvement* What lit the flame for Amy on being involved in a technical community in the first place, and where did she find them? + “I have had a lot of success in my career that I would love to say was ‘I planned it that way completely.’ And that’s just not entirely true.” – Amy Arnold + When Amy was working in public sector as a network engineer, she was looking for ways to connect with others she could learn from who knew networking. She started following people like Tom Hollingsworth and Ethan Banks on Twitter and later got to meet them at the Cisco Live conference. + “I learned so many things that would have taken me so many more years to have gotten on my own.” – Amy Arnold + Amy would encourage us to participate in the community, even if it’s uncomfortable. Many in this industry are introverts. - “You’re really just kind of in the room with a bunch of people that are nervous about being in the room too…. You get so much information from listening, and if you’re contributing too, it’s just a really good way to be in this industry, even if it is a little against our introverted nature.” – Amy Arnold, on participating in communities - Amy recounts introducing herself to people she followed on Twitter and how awkward it was. She encourages people to do it anyway. * What’s the proper avenue to seek out mentors? + Amy says it depends on what you are seeking from a mentorship standpoint. - Many people seek or give advice in Slack or Discord channels. Amy cites the Art of Network Engineering Discord (link to join the Discord is here). - Amy sometimes has people reach out to her on LinkedIn and takes the time to answer questions. - The people Amy mentors are local. This is a different level of mentoring because she likes to meet with them over lunch and talk face to face. - Amy recommends against finding someone randomly on Twitter and asking them to mentor you. It is best to build some kind of relationship or rapport with someone before asking for mentorship. - If you’re just looking for advice, many people on social media channels like Twitter, Mastadon, Blue Sky, Threads, etc. are usually happy to provide general advice. LinkedIn has become a common place to ask for advice as well. * To contact Amy, you can find her: + On LinkedIn – Amy Arnold + On Twitter / X – @amyengineer + Amy’s blog can be found here.
Mentioned in the Outro* The spirit of technical exploration is still present in Amy’s decision to specialize in VOIP and then later come back to a more networking generalist role. + After a time, Amy understood it would be more interesting to take a broader focus in networking and that she would enjoy it more than the specialization (i.e. focus on more than just voice). + Pursuing a specialty doesn’t have to be forever. While you’re working in a more specialized area, you can make the determination that something broader / more general would be better for you and make a shift. * When John was asking the questions about project management skills for the technologist, it’s a bit like our discussion with Josh Duffney back in Episode 234. After reading multiple books, Josh was thinking about writing a book on Go that someone could read and build something useful in that language. + What skills of project management, if focused on intently, could help the technologist deliver more value with these skills in their role quickly? That’s the idea behind John’s line of questions. * The importance of spoken and especially written communication keeps coming up with guests. Amy encourages us to write what we find interesting. + We can do this in a blog or in an online forum (even Reddit) to show evidence of a well-formed thought. Something publicly accessible counts as public proof of work and proof of producing effective thoughts. * Special shout out to listeners in Finland, Poland, Germany, and Singapore for putting us on the Apple podcast charts. Please rate us 5 stars and write a review with what you found valuable from this episode!
When something related to your current job or a job you think you want isn’t for you, how do you know? And how quickly can you make that decision? Much like quality of service is applied to enterprise network traffic, we can apply the same sort of prioritization to our technology careers through the process of technical exploration and curiosity.
Amy Arnold, our guest this week in episode 281, had originally planned to be an attorney but ended up dropping out of a pre-Law program after 5 days. From there, she decided to take networking courses, and though it was a new subject to Amy, something “just clicked” when it came to networking. A future network engineer was born.
Amy Arnold is currently a Pre-Sales Systems Engineer at Fortinet. In this discussion you’ll hear Amy’s technology origin story, how she progressed to become a network engineer, what working in the public sector is like, thoughts on mentoring and technical communities, and reasons for pursuing a role as a consultant while choosing a specialty in VOIP.
Original Recording Date: 05-30-2024
Topics – Networking Just Clicked, Program Advisor and Mentor, Technical Communities, The Path to a Networking Focused Tech Job, Embracing Exploration, Hitting a Stride and Progressing as a Network Engineer, The Nuances of Public Sector, A Move to Consulting2:39 – Networking Just Clicked* Today Amy Arnold is a Pre-Sales Systems Engineer at Fortinet. + In this, role, Amy architects Fortinet solutions to solve problems for customers in the public sector. We often refer to this sector as SLED (state and local education as well as local government). + To contact Amy, you can find her: - On LinkedIn – Amy Arnold - On Twitter / X – @amyengineer - Amy’s blog can be found here. * Amy tells us she originally planned to be an attorney. After attending law school for a week, Amy dropped out, feeling it was not the right path for her. + Upon dropping out of law school and not having much of a plan, Amy decided to take some courses at local colleges – a coding class and a programming class. + “The coding class was…fine. But the networking class…it was amazing. I still remember my instructor when she told me what a router was for the first time. I was like, ‘tell more about that. I really want to know.’ And so, I was hooked. I took all the classes they had to offer in networking and ended up with a certificate in networking. And then I took certifications as well.” – Amy Arnold + Amy had grown up with a father who worked in technology, specifically in coding / programming. Amy didn’t feel compelled to pursue technology and didn’t see herself in that type of role just because she had some familiarity with it. After leaving law school and taking some courses, she gave technology another look. + Amy tells us she can do coding, but something about networking “just clicked” for her. + “Why not give it a try and see what area of technology might be a good fit? And that’s what I did. Honestly, like I said I didn’t even know what an ip address was until I took this first class…and the rest is kind of history from that point.” – Amy Arnold, on the decision to dive deep into networking + John points out how a few days in networking classes were enough to let Amy know she had an interest in the area, and she then decided to see if it was a passion. - While Amy enjoyed pre-law classes, there was something about the practice of law that just wasn’t for her. In fact, she didn’t even want to give it a year to see if things changed, feeling that would have been time wasted. - People may feel the same way in any job they have, being unable to pinpoint a specific reason but deep down knowing what they are doing is not for them. - With the networking courses, she decided at the end of each one to take the next one. Though Amy feels it was taking a chance, it worked out well in the end. * Nick likes the fail fast or gain value fast mentality. Once we land on something that really peaks an interest, how do we determine what to do from there and if something will translate into a different job / career? + Amy says she was pretty clueless at first and was a novice in networking. + The networking program Amy had entered was a flexible program. She had a young child at the time, which meant she could tend to her child during the day and take classes and do lab work in the evenings. + The program had a ton of hands on learning and many instructors with experience in the networking field. The program’s guided path focus was to produce capable network engineers, which worked to Amy’s advantage. * Being the mom of a young child while going to school at the same time seems like a very heavy load. + Amy’s husband (a software engineer) was consistently home in the evenings to support her work in the networking program. + Amy could also study while her baby took naps. + Having the support and dedicated time to study allowed Amy to work at her own pace, which was quicker than she originally expected. + The program was structured to allow students to progress to the next course once they complete a course (no requirement to wait until the next semester). It took Amy about 1 – 1.5 years to complete the program, and then she focused on obtaining certifications.
10:27 – Program Advisor and Mentor* Did the program Amy was part of connect students in it with potential employers, or was the guidance more from expertise of instructors? + There was a little of both. Amy tells us what she learned in the program helped her land her first technology job. + Amy currently serves on the advisory board for this program. She helps with curriculum development so participants in the program can develop practical skills from it. + The program currently has internships with which to align students and has for a number of years. + This particular program has a technical focus and has an industry advisory board. The goal of the program is to produce candidates with useful, entry level skills upon existing the program. - Amy and other members of the advisory board meet with the program faculty a couple of times per year to discuss courses, their current relevance, and any gaps in curriculum which will better serve participants. - The program has been adjusted over time to account for industry trends like the rise of public cloud, emphasis on automation and scripting, etc. * Amy says it’s very rewarding to have gone through the program and now see the success of program candidates. Amy now serves as a mentor to multiple people who have gone through the program. + Even outside the program, Amy is mentoring a number of women in network engineering. She is passionate about increasing the talent pipeline for network engineering as a discipline and enjoys helping women engineers get started. + Amy enjoys mentoring others because she didn’t have a mentor when she began in network engineering. + Amy highlights finding unofficial mentors to learn from on Twitter, through Packet Pushers, and via Tech Field Day. - “If I can help women getting started that maybe don’t have those same connections get started, I feel really strongly about that…. A lot of network engineering positions, especially getting started are…you’re a part of one potentially…. You might wear several different hats. That’s tough to do when you’re on your own. So getting the right resources, helping people, giving them the support that they need…I think that’s important in the industry, and I think that’s something network engineering community does really well.” – Amy Arnold
14:42 – Technical Communities* Since Nick and John were systems administrators who got into virtualization, they are curious about communities specifically for network engineers. + Amy mentions the Packet Pushers Slack Group as one example and cites the usefulness of Twitter and LinkedIn. + Amy is the co-leader of the Dallas / Fort Worth (DFW) Networking User Group (or NUG) and calls this out as her favorite community group. - Amy tells us these are great opportunities to nerd out with other network engineers in your area. - All of the networking user groups (or NUGs) roll up to the (US)NUA, an organization that helps find venues to make group administration easier. - Any talks given at an event are vendor neutral. Attendees are a mix of network engineers across customers, vendors, and partners / resellers / consulting firms. - Visit this page to learn about other Networking User Groups and see upcoming events. + Amy is a member of Women in Cybersecurity (or WiCyS and attended their conference in Nashville earlier this year.
17:18 – The Path to a Networking Focused Tech Job* Amy’s first tech job had very little networking focus, and that was disappointing. + Her title at this company was something related to special projects. The company wanted to hire her but wasn’t certain what to do with her skills. + At his job, Amy learned about servers and obtained a MCSE. She also learned about desktops. + Though the role was not largely focused on networking, Amy pursued networking certifications and continued to build skills in her area of interest, often spending her personal time to do it. * An opportunity came up to do project management, which was something she had been curious about, and Amy went for it. + The role was focused on technical project integration and enabled Amy to get a PMP (Project Management Professional) certification. + Amy spent about 8 months in this role. While she loved making project plans and rollback plans for herself, there were aspects of the role as a project manager she did not like, such as “herding cats.” - “That’s one thing as we kind of talk through career choices…I think sometimes you have to try things. And maybe they’re not your favorite thing, and you learn that about yourself.” – Amy Arnold, on trying project management and being thankful she did + As soon as a pure network engineer role came up Amy applied for it and got it. + “My first probably 2 years in tech was not a ton of networking…a ton of technology but not a ton of pure networking.” – Amy Arnold * How was Amy’s networking experience looked upon when applying for some of the roles that were not 100% networking focused? Did hiring managers think as a result she could figure out other areas of technology as a result? + Amy believes they did. In fact, each role has allowed her to learn a lot. + She learned about servers, for example, which helped Amy realized she liked networking better than servers. Learning about general systems administration and endpoints was also helpful. + Project management was something interesting to Amy but once again not where she wanted to focus.
20:38 – Embracing Exploration* Nick feels like Amy has a fast filter that helps her determine what is both an interesting topic to learn and something enjoyable to do as part of a job. It’s almost like she is doing per packet forwarding for SD-WAN and sending the packets down the strongest link or dropping them based on these criteria. What is the decision making process behind this which others can learn from? + Networking has so many areas within it, and Amy tells us it is very difficult (especially when getting started) to know what you will like and where you will focus. + Landing a job and gaining exposure to different areas can help you determine what may be a better fit. - It is important to separate areas in which you’re unskilled and have the potential to improve because it interests you from those you classify as “not for me.” - In project management, Amy got better at and was good at it before deciding it was not for her. - In networking, Amy knew she was a complete novice and was initially stressed at all the things she did not know. But as she learned more, things got better, and her enjoyment of it perpetuated. - “Sometimes you have to stay in a position longer than you want to. But what I’ve found and what I love about networking is that if you really know your stuff and you can show people you really know your stuff, you can transition between a lot of different things. So it’s really hard to get bored, and it’s a lot easier than some fields to move into something you enjoy more.”- Amy Arnold * John says it sounds like Amy is encouraging us to do more exploration in our careers, especially in the beginning. + Amy tells us people who started in help desk are some of the best network engineers she knows because of the variety of things they have seen. - In addition to the above, translating what an end user is asking / saying is a skill in and of itself. - A variety of scenarios and technologies may help you determine what is most interesting. Amy gives the example of deploying an access point as some of the experience needed to understand if a person likes working with wireless or radio frequencies. - “I think that one thing folks try to skip though is those fundamentals. I don’t think you can skip those. I think you have to understand basic networking before you start branching out….” – Amy Arnold - Amy says we can try things we think we’re interested but don’t have to feel like it’s the only option and our decision is final.
25:41 – Hitting a Stride and Progressing as a Network Engineer* When did Amy hit her stride after doing some exploring? + At her first network engineering job, Amy was excited to be able to apply all of the information she had gathered through self-study and certification. - Amy was translating some of the networking theory into practice outside a lab environment. + Around this time Amy started seeking out other network engineers. She was the only one who specialized in networking. + Getting a job as an actual network engineer was validating. It confirmed Amy’s hypothesis that she would really like doing the job. + Amy highlights public sector as a great opportunity for potential job candidates and the need for talented people. - While public sector may not pay the most in the market, working within it can offer job candidates the chance to do many different things. - Public sector needs smart people who can adapt. Amy says it’s a way to gain a lot of experience very quickly. * Taking a role in the public sector gave Amy the chance to learn many areas of networking. + Domain controllers and the Citrix deployment also fell under the network team’s purview for some reason. + “I was able to really get that holistic picture of how everything works together, which is one of the things I really like about my job – being able to see how things go together, the dependencies, how you can solve problems or create problems within the network with applications and servers and end users and all that together.” – Amy Arnold + Amy mentions that in her experience network engineers might get roped into solving all kinds of mysteries because people just don’t know who else to ask. After verifying and proving the issue was not with the network, Amy would seek to help end users solve the problem they had brought to her. + Amy mentions learning virtualization through her job in public sector. Overall it was a great opportunity to upskill. * A role as a network engineer doesn’t mean you just work on networking equipment all day long and stay in a bubble. Networking technologies connect other technologies that a network engineer will need to understand to be effective. Be sure to read job roles and responsibilities carefully! + According to Amy, sometimes you act as a “network janitor” and have to clean up all sorts of messes. + Working on problems that seem outside your area to find the underlying cause (or culprit) of the problem can really sharpen troubleshooting skills. - “That’s one of the reasons I love packet captures…. Packets don’t lie. This is your issue right here.” – Amy Arnold
31:42 – The Nuances of Public Sector* Generally when people say public sector this refers to anything which is publicly funded / funded by public dollars. + Though privately funded universities would not be public sector according to the definition, we might hear the classification SLED in the vendor and partner world, which include them. - The SLED classification of customer accounts refers to state and local governments and education. Education includes IDSs (independent school districts and higher education institutions). * What sort of technology nuances exist in the public sector that wouldn’t in the private sector? + Amy has spent most of her time working in local government, specifically working for a city. + Cities have a wide variety of services to deal with like parks, animal shelters, public safety, fire, police, dispatchers, permits, building inspectors, public works (streets, utilities, sewers, etc.). Each has its own set of applications. + “You’re dealing with a lot of different priorities, different sectors, different applications, and you also deal with different compliance, especially in public safety….” – Amy Arnold, on working in public sector - Criminal background checks require a connection to state systems to look up drivers licenses. All of this has to be secured and requires certain types of encryption in transit, for example. - Schools (independent school districts / lower education institutions) have to deal with CIPA compliance related to web filtering for children. - People forget that both schools and local government deal with credit cards. Though they try not to store the payment card data, there is security hygiene required for taking payments. + There is so much technology in public section which people may not realize. - Local governments have SCADA systems that run water plants, irrigation, and sewage plants. Amy gained a great deal of SCADA experience in her work for the city. - Schools have things like smart boards and IoT devices. + “They don’t necessarily pay enterprise rates for your service, but you can get a wide variety of experience doing it.” – Amy Arnold * Does experience in public sector make you a more attractive candidate for a different role within public sector compared to a candidate with experience outside public sector? + Amy can’t speak for all hiring managers, but hiring someone with public sector experience means that person understands what the environment is like. * Everything in the public sector is funded by projects, tax money, and grants. + “There’s never enough time, there’s never enough money, and there’s never enough people. And one of the reasons that I really actually like working in SLED is because those are problems and challenges that I like solving. How are we going to get the quality and the service that they need…given these constraints?” – Amy Arnold + Sometimes the constraints are substantial, but the solution has to work within the budget. Amy and her co-workers for the city were well aware of these types of scenarios. + Within municipalities and school districts, a review board or council determines if technology (or any other type of) projects will be funded. Different solutions have to be prioritized appropriately as a result because it isn’t just IT asking for things. - “Everyone’s asking for money, and you’re not going to get all of the money. So it’s dividing up that pie.” – Amy Arnold + Public sector also has certain purchasing regulations to follow which ensure entities are being responsible with money. + Amy learned how to align technology with business goals while working on the job in public sector, and it is part of the reason she’s been able to progress into her current role at Fortinet. It was the experience being a part of those conversations and knowing what was likely or not likely to get approved.
38:40 – A Move to Consulting* Amy’s husband was thinking about teaching high school, and she didn’t think it was wise for them to both work for the government. * Amy had wanted to try consulting and made the move. It was a “mentors” kind of setup where she would have more senior folks to ask for help. * She didn’t just choose consulting but chose to focus on a specific technology within networking – VOIP (voice-over-ip). * “I wanted to see what it would be like to know something really deeply…. Consulting is a whole different animal…. People are constantly setting their own environments on fire, and they are calling you to fix it.” – Amy Arnold + Amy was a consultant for several years and became very good at it. + Though many of her customers were public sector customers, consulting was “a different world” that was fast-paced. * “It’s a lot of fun. It’s also got some high stress to it. I definitely recommend folks who think they might want to do it give it a try. Ultimately I decided I liked being the demanding customer.” – Amy Arnold, on consulting and why she left it + Amy liked having more input in projects, which was part of the reason behind her decision to move back to the customer side. + Consulting was a great experience for Amy. It can teach you how to talk to customers and expose you to many different environments. - Amy also tells us you get to meet many different people and do a variety of different things.
Mentioned in the Outro* Amy might be the only guest who has shared details on the depth and breadth of technologies inside the public sector (as well as compliance requirements). Did you know cities had all that technology within their operations? + Public sector seems like an option to gain experience in areas outside your current focus if you’re working in the private sector today. * Amy highlights focusing on the fundamentals of networking as a way to determine what we find interesting and where we may want to place more focus in the future. + This in line with Brad Christian’s emphasis on technology fundamentals which he uses to place technology bets and determine areas in which to pursue technical certification. The episodes with Brad referenced here are: - Episode 263 – Follow and Commit: A Player Coach Discovers FinOps with Brad Christian (1/2) - Episode 264 – Back to Basics: Technology Bets and Industry Relationships with Brad Christian (2/2) * Amy chose to specialize in VOIP because she wanted to be deeply skilled at something. + This came only after learning the fundamentals of networking. + It’s important to understand Amy was a consultant for only a certain amount of time. The specialization was not forever, and she hints at moving back to working for the city again after being a consultant. + Pursuing a specialty for a time can make us a better generalist later just like taking a broader focus could make us a better specialist later. We need to understand one decision to specialize does not lock you into it forever. * We emphasized technical communities specifically for network engineers like: + The (US)NUA or US Networking User Association is the organization that helps local Networking User Groups like the one Amy co-leads in Dallas / Fort Worth, and its mission for community groups is to be “a vendor neutral environment to talk networks.” - Maybe these groups are a way to find some mentors who can help you progress as a network engineer. + Packet Pushers also has a community you can join here and a job board that is free for technologists to use. - To learn more about the Packet Pushers job board, check out our discussion in Episode 277 with Ethan Banks. * We never used the words quality of service in the discussion. Similar to quality of service for network traffic, Amy has been able to apply quality of service at a whole new level, prioritizing topics and areas that were both interesting to learn and seemed interesting to be part of her job. + Amy’s technical exploration phase allowed her to consistently reprioritize. * As you progress in your career, it’s important that we have support from others (friends, family, etc.). Amy had this as she progressed as a network engineer.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
When a people leader is laid off, they have a choice – stop everything, or continue to lead, even as you exit. Marni Coffey continued to model strong character and supportive leadership for her team until the end of her last day with PepsiCo. This is the mark of a great leader…a leader whose greatest skill is empathy.
After taking time to recharge and reset, Marni needed some help to move forward. This week in episode 280 Marni Coffey will share how she processed the layoff event’s impact on her and the former members of he team, the support she received during her job search, reflections on stress, and the series of good conversations that led her to McKesson.
Original Recording Date: 05-19-2024
Marni Coffey is the Senior Manager for Business Systems and Indirect Sourcing and Procurement at McKesson. If you missed our previous discussions with Marni, check out part 1 in Episode 278 and part 2 in Episode 279.
Topics – A Forced Job Search, Addressing the Layoff in Interviews, Noticing Stress3:14 – A Forced Job Search* When asked about joining McKesson, Marni tells us it’s about the way things “just happened” to get her there. + “I knew who I was. At Pepsi, I finally knew who I was in that people manager role. I knew what was important to me, what I wanted to do. And I knew I wanted to elevate people. That’s what I wanted to do. I wanted to make them successful and get them where they were going. I wanted to be the one to work on that employee experience and navigate across a global company to get those things done for our employees, not just my employees…all of the employees…I want them all to have a good experience. And I know that sounds like some utopian wish, but that’s what I mean by continuous improvement. You’re never there. You just keep doing the next thing to make it better for them.” – Marni Coffey + Marni knew what she wanted when working for PepsiCo. But the company went through a global transformation, and Marni was laid off. Her husband, who also worked at PepsiCo, was laid off as well. - When Nick heard about what was happening at PepsiCo, he reached out to Marni to see if she was impacted. It turned out Marni was impacted, and her plan was to take the severance package and figure out her next move. - “I had not been hunting for a job in so long I didn’t even know where to start…. I had really thought I was going to retire with Pepsi, so I thought I was just done with this job hunting stuff.” – Marni Coffey - Marni mentioned Nick and others helped her get her resume into a format accepted today. She also took time to update her LinkedIn profile. Once both were updated, Marni began her job search. + Marni took every interview she was able to get and went in with the mindset that many were just practice. Taking this approach made her feel more relaxed. - For some companies, Marni knew after the first interview it was not the right place for her. If Marni was not passionate about what the company did or didn’t like the culture, it wasn’t a company for her. - The style of an interview can turn off potential candidates. Marni shares the story of an interview style that made her not want to continue with the process. * “It was unpleasant. They didn’t take the time to find out who I am and what I’m looking for, which I think is an important part of interviewing. You need to know who you’re interviewing. Are they a motivational fit for you? …Are they going to be happy with you? Are they going to fit in with you? Are you going to be happy with them? And those are things you size up in an interview, and it’s a small space of time to try to get to that.” – Marni Coffey, speaking to an interview experience + Before McKesson, Marni interviewed with Progressive Insurance and was extremely excited. - Marni recounts getting to the 5th round of interviews for a role at Progressive. It came down to her and one other person. - Talent acquisition called Marni to let her know the company had chosen to go with the other candidate. It was not personal. The candidate offered the role had more recent experience with developers whereas Marni’s most recent experience was with operations. The talent acquisition person said they wanted to keep Marni in mind for another role in the future and felt she would be a great fit at the company. - It was difficult to accept not getting the role after coming so close, but Marni feels it happened for a reason. Marni tried to keep herself from getting as excited about the next interview processes, feeling she was able to relax a little after the experience with Progressive. + Marni’s husband suggested they take a trip to Hawaii since she didn’t get the job at Progressive, feeling Marni could use it. Around this same time, McKesson got back to her. - Marni had applied for a role at McKesson 3 months before receiving the call from their talent acquisition group. They had called to ask about her experience working with managed service providers. She had experience working with 3 of them concurrently while at PepsiCo. But her responses to questions about previous experience were not overly enthusiastic. Not getting the role at Progressive was still impacting her. - A couple of weeks later Marni was asked to interview with a senior director. - “…Really liked her. More than anything, it was just a good conversation. That’s kind of how I handled all those interviews with McKesson. It was a good conversation.” – Marni Coffey, recounting her first interview with a director from McKesson - At this point Marni was still thinking about the conversations as practice, which allowed her to remain calm. - Next Marni interviewed with 2 directors that worked with the team she would be managing at McKesson. The conversations were candid and very good, covering her experience and general feelings about things. - Next in the process Marni spoke to a senior vice president. She had to take this conversation from a hotel with poor wifi, which caused some technical glitches. The conversation was light and still a good one. Her interviewer was understanding of the situation with wifi. - Marni then interviewed with the CIO and VP of Operations for Transformation. It was a familiar conversation since Marni had come from operations. - Marni mentioned the people who interviewed her were very different and each brought something unique to the conversations. She liked that aspect of the process. - The last interview was with a VP between the senior director and senior vice president she had spoken with already. During that interview, Marni made a comment about continuous improvement that her interviewer decided to write down. - “I thought it was so cool that this vice president who had it all together was writing down something I said. And so if nothing else I felt really good about myself after those interviews…. If the only purpose was that I have my confidence built back up and I feel good about my abilities and my skills and talents, this was worth it.” – Marni Coffey - Marni had not gone out to research McKesson because she did not feel they would offer her the job. It was also in finance, an area where she had no previous experience. - Marni felt surprised when McKesson called to offer her the job. That morning before the call is when she found the McKesson socks in her drawer and started reading up on them, cementing in her mind how awesome the company was. - “It was great experience overall. I mean, it was ups and downs interviewing when I hadn’t interviewed in so long. But having so many people willing to step in an help me, people I’d built relationships with…see, even after you’re no longer at your company, all those relationships that you build pay off…. I was very humbled by home many people wanted to be part of my journey, to elevate me on my journey, to develop me and my skills while I really needed it.” – Marni Coffey, reflecting on the power of relationships she had built and her gratitude for it * Marni cites getting help with her resume, LinkedIn, and even interview tips from others in her network from the time of being laid off throughout her job search process.
15:06 – Addressing the Layoff in Interviews* Was Marni asked about being laid off during her interview processes? How should others handle this scenario? + Marni would advise we be honest but gracious. + “I know it’s really hard not to take it personally when you get laid off, but most of the time when you get laid off that decision has absolutely nothing to do with your value, your contribution to the company.” – Marni Coffey, on layoffs + Marni’s senior director was the one who had to deliver the news to her about being laid off. It was a business decision and had nothing to do with her. This is hard to hear and really believe in the moment, and should this happen to us, we should remind ourselves it has nothing to do with our value as a person. + If the company vision no longer includes you, it’s an opportunity to go and do something better or different. Marni tells us we should understand there is a better fit for us out there. + By the time the decision was made, Marni felt like she wasn’t really able to contribute as much as she would have liked, a bit like her ideas were not elevated as much as she had hoped. But that directional change in the business is not a reflection of her ideas. + “It was just time. Time to move on to the next thing, time to find something better to do, time to grow again. If you haven’t looked for a job in a long time…find people that will help you navigate that process….” – Marni Coffey - People can help us navigate a job search by giving resume feedback, sharing what to expect during interviews, help with LinkedIn, etc. - While filling out LinkedIn, we can reflect back on time spent at a company and toot our own horn a little. We can reflect back on what we achieved together with others and document our skills and accomplishments. - Even if there is not room for something on our resume we should write it down anyway in a place that is easy to find. Marni reminds us we need things to talk about in interviews. We need to know our stories. - Marni is grateful for her time at Pepsi. - Marni felt like she had worked through a number of challenges and with many different people at Pepsi. She tells us the ramp up into her job at McKesson was much easier than her day to day job in operations at Pepsi. - Marni’s time at PepsiCo stretched her, built her skills, taught her patience, taught her the value of partnerships, etc. Because of that experience, Marni feels like she is worthy to support her team at McKesson in the way they need to be supported. - We need change to avoid getting stale.
20:30 – Noticing Stress* Nick remembers talking to Marni about the decrease in stress she experienced after the layoff. + During those last few days at PepsiCo, Marni was very stressed. The offshore team remained in place. But she was able to remain positive for her team. + Marni remembers her support lead taking a day off to deal with the news due to being so upset at her departure. Marni got on a call with this person and his wife and learned just how big of an impact she had made as a manager. Marni continues to maintain the relationship with that support lead and his wife to this day. They are friends who keep in touch. + Members of Marni’s team reached out to her as soon as they heard what had happened. Every one of them connected with her on LinkedIn. + Members of the team have told Marni if the opportunity every arose, they would be very excited to work for her again. + “When you’re gone and they no longer have to care what you think about them, for them to say things like that, or for them to call you and say ‘hey, I’m in charge of that area that you used to be in charge of. And I always ask myself…what would Marni do?’” – Marni Coffey, reflecting on her team and their growth even after she had left the company - Marni was humbled and touched that so many people thought so highly of her. - “It made me feel like I did it right, you know, to the end. I did it right. I didn’t bad mouth the company. Even though I was hurting and I was feeling rejected, I didn’t do that. I was still there for them in the way I always wanted to be.” – Marni Coffey, on leaving the company and supporting her team on the way out + The first Monday after she was officially gone from PepsiCo, Marni felt a weight lifted off her shoulders. - Marni realized she used to get up each day and wonder what she might have to resolve that day. - “And I was already ready for the day. I was like suited up with armor the minute I got out of bed every morning. And this was the first day I didn’t have to do that.” – Marni Coffey, on the first day she didn’t have to get up and go to work - Marni tells us she by nature isn’t someone who can sit around and do nothing. - “I took the time to re-energize and to do things for myself so I started to feel like myself again…. I did not realize how stressful it was until I wasn’t doing it anymore.” – Marni Coffey - If you get laid off, Marni would encourage you to take some time to notice things. Take the time to notice the stress you were under in your previous role. Take the time to recover a little. - “Take time to say, ‘wow, I was really stressed. Maybe that wasn’t the right place for me, and the next place I go, it’s going to be different.’ For me it was.” – Marni Coffey, on noticing the stress of her previous role * Was the mismatch between what Marni wanted or felt was needed and how things went before the layoff causes of the stress she was under? + Marni thinks it was. She didn’t know she was going to be impacted but was trying to make things better in her work environment. Not being empowered as an individual to make things better was stressful. - But you don’t realize how stressful things are when you’re in the middle of it. - Being in operations, things are constantly moving. - Marni says her team was not the typical IT Operations team. When someone came to them needing help, instead of saying something was not their responsibility, they would try to connect the person who needed help with someone they knew could help. Marni’s team knew different people inside the organization and would direct traffic or make a connection based on the nature of the request. - “We didn’t drop people. We were at the center…. I worked with exceptional, smart people and they went above and beyond for that customer experience and that employee experience. And they really wanted to make it better. We cared. We cared. It was our company…not the company…our company. And we had accomplished all these things together. We were family…and we weren’t anymore after that.” – Marni Coffey, on her role as part of an operations team leading up to the layoff - Marni mentioned she recently spoke to her former boss at Pepsi and has spoken with many others she worked with while at Pepsi since leaving. Marni thought the bond with her coworkers would be lost after the layoff, but she says it has become even stronger. + Marni felt like she wasn’t getting the go ahead to do things that could improve the environment for her employees and other employees, and that was part of the stress near the end of her tenure at PepsiCo. - “While I still worried about the people who were still there and I still wanted it to be better for them, I knew it wasn’t my responsibility anymore. So I didn’t have to suit up to go in there and find a way to make it better.” – Marni Coffey - For the people managers out there, Marni would encourage you to take the time you need in the event of a layoff and not feel guilty about not being there for the team or having to move on to the next place. The decision made was out of your control. It’s ok to do what is right for yourself. - Marni could tell breaking the news of layoffs impacted her senior director. In that final meeting, Marni’s director encouraged her to take time for herself, emphasizing she did not have to do anything for the last few days of her employment. - “I still did. Up until the time that I couldn’t login to the system anymore, I still did.” – Marni Coffey, on giving full effort until the end of her tenure at an employer - If anyone ever called Marni after the fact, she would help them. It was no longer her responsibility. But she felt a release in all of this.
Mentioned in the Outro* There is a clear sense of duty from a people leader perspective in Marni’s story. + Once Marni knew her job was ending she was under tremendous stress but still wanted to be there for her team (all the way until the point her systems access was deactivated). This is an extension of “you work for them” as a people leader rather than “they work for you.” - Good managers continue to care for their team even when it is hard. + This sense of duty creates a weight on the people leader. - When the duty to lead has been removed, it’s ok to care for yourself. - We need to keep in mind those leaders who care for us and our peers need time to recharge and care for themselves because they are human just like all of us. * Have you ever thought of interviews as a way to have a good conversation with someone else so each side can learn? + Marni thought of her interviews as good conversations and used them to build confidence. * We need to have stories to tell in interviews. Marni emphasizes we can only know our stories by documenting our accomplishments (and that means documenting beyond what will fit on a resume)! * If you’re looking for additional perspectives on the interview process, check out these episodes: + Episode 265 – Interview and Collaborate: Fostering Human Connection with Sean Tolram (1/2) - Using interviews to build connections + Episode 192 – Begin a Mindfulness Practice with Brett Hill (2/2) - Good discussion of using mindfulness in interviews + Episode 81 – The Joy of Interviewing with Manny Sidhu - Manny Sidhu recounts why he loves interviewing and what he has learned by being interviewed and from the perspective of the interviewer + Some of the recent foundational episodes on interviewing: - Episode 205 – Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 1 - Episode 206 – Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 2
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Why is moving from individual contributor to technical lead or team lead such a hard leap? For Marni Coffey, it was about learning to develop the people around her. Developing others is something Marni chose to do as a team lead, and as a people leader she continues to do it. In Episode 279, you will hear how Marni approached the first set of one-on-one career conversations with members of her team after joining McKesson. We will also discuss change management and considerations for doing it within global organizations. Should good managers be doing a form of change management for the careers of their employees? See if you can formulate your own answer after listening to the episode.
Original Recording Date: 05-19-2024
Marni Coffey is the Senior Manager for Business Systems and Indirect Sourcing and Procurement at McKesson. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Marni, check out Episode 278.
Topics – The Technical Lead as a People Developer, Change Management, Improving Employee Experience and Career Development3:21 – The Technical Lead as a People Developer* Marni mentioned being a technical lead. What should someone expect if they are an individual contributor seeking to take on a technical lead (or tech lead) role? + “It’s a leap. Moving from individual contributor to technical lead is the hardest leap, the hardest leap I ever took.” – Marni Coffey + As an individual contributor, Marni would learn how to do things and not stop until they are complete, delivering excellent solutions to internal customers and stakeholders. + “Becoming a lead…you now have a team, and they all have individual tasks that they are going to contribute to. And you will have some of your own tasks, but mostly, you’re kind of going around and making sure everybody can do what they do…. You are supposed to enable them to do the job…. You don’t just take the task and do it. And too many technical leads do it…. That is not what the people on your team want you to do. They don’t want you to take their tasks. You may think that you’re doing them a favor. You are not. You should be developing them.” – Marni Coffey, on the role of the technical lead + Others on a team may not be able to perform tasks as quickly as the technical lead, and the technical lead should understand this. - The tech lead can peer review a team member’s work and provide feedback and coaching on how to make it better without doing the task for the team member. - If a team member needs help, help them. Help does not mean taking the task and doing it yourself! - The technical lead’s job is to develop the people on the team and ensure they can complete their work. + Deadlines are also an important consideration in all of this because they must be met. - Marni tells us sometimes people are working in the wrong role. Maybe a person is working in the data layer and needs to be working in the presentation layer. - The tech lead needs to understand when people are in the wrong role and help get them in the right role. Someone on the team may be struggling or not enjoying the work they are doing, for example. + “As a technical lead that was the hardest thing. The hardest thing is not doing it for them. It is teaching them to do it.” – Marni Coffey * Does the technical lead essentially manage the team’s task workload to ensure deadlines are hit? + Marni says yes, but the job of the technical lead (or team lead), it’s your responsibility to go and speak with stakeholders. + If you are someone who is afraid to talk to other people who may be leaders within your company, the technical lead may not be right for you just yet. Start by participating in presentations to stakeholders as an individual contributor to prepare for this role. + A team lead can develop others on the team by involving them in presentations to stakeholders. This allows participation without ownership of the entire presentation. + In her current role Marni likes to bring her team members to and involve them in presentations. She can set the stage as the manager but then allows the subject matter experts on her team to cover their respective areas. + “If you’re a team lead and you’ve got people on your team who are aspiring for that same role, and you want to help them get to that next step, that’s one of the things you can do. When you are giving your presentations to stakeholders and senior leaders and you’re making sure the deadlines are met with the project managers, bring them in there with you. Let them speak a little bit. Let them start to sharpen those skills.” – Marni Coffey * Not everyone may think a key output for the team lead is team member development. + When in the technical or team lead role, Marni felt it was her job to develop others on the team. + Some people feel the role of the team lead is to… - Ensure work is being completed by the people on the team - Assign people to perform specific tasks - Report task completion and progress to leaders - Give presentations + Marni took on a little extra to develop others when she was in this role. She believes we need other people to accomplish things for the greater company, and it will be easier to work with others if we develop them. Marni says this development effort creates future partnerships. + John suggests maybe a primary metric for a team lead is project delivery. - Marni agrees, but for those who want to move on to more than just a team lead (going into people leadership), developing people will be something you need to know how to do. And no matter what, the team will be more successful if you spend time developing the people on it. - “I’ve done it both ways. It was more successful when I let them do it and helped develop them.” – Marni Coffey, on being a team lead and developing people + Marni tells us there are times when a team lead may need to step in to help expedite a task to avoid missing a deadline. Marni would work together with the member of the team on a specific task, and though she may have done some of the work, she was there with the team member so the other person could speak to the changes that were made. - “I’ll tell you what I didn’t do. I didn’t just take it and leave them out of it. I was in the room with them.” – Marni Coffey, on stepping in as a team lead * Marni defines stakeholders as people who have a stake in a specific system or who have a stake in what you are delivering. Examples could be end users of a system or people who are going to be in charge of managing / maintaining the system. + Nick suggests we might be so focused on fixing technical problems that we have not sharpened our communication skills by truly understanding what the requirements of our stakeholders are. Having discussions with stakeholders may uncover they really needed something different than they originally thought. + It’s important to ask others what they are trying to accomplish before we recommend solutions. Even if someone comes to you with a different question, understanding what they are trying to accomplish is key and may reveal a very different solution is needed. This is called “solving for the latent need.” * Is the team lead or technical lead always an individual contributor? + Marni says it depends. You can be an individual contributor in the role. + Are there enough people on the team to accomplish all of the work, or do you as the team lead or technical lead need to take some of the tasks? + “You want to make sure as the team lead that you do leave yourself enough time to be able to represent the team, to be able to give those updates. Sometimes you’re working with a project manager, and sometimes you don’t have a project manager.” – Marni Coffey + Marni says it can be more time intensive when we work with a project manager than in the case when there is not a project manager. She sites this as another way she grew in her career. - Marni took a project management course to better understand some of the reasoning behind the actions and questions that came from project managers. - “It feels like nitpicking when you don’t understand why somebody wants something, so I think you should always seek out that why…. Never stop asking why. Be a 5-year-old your whole life. There are business principles built on asking why over and over and over again.” – Marni Coffey * This idea of asking why gets us right back to empathy. One of the keys to successfully delivering a solution is understanding what people really need and why it is needed. + For a people leader to be successful in delivering projects and solutions, the leader must make sure their people have what is needed to be successful. + “You’ve got to make sure that you’re giving your people what they need to be successful. That’s what I mean by you work for them. They don’t work for you.” – Marni Coffey, on people leadership * John feels not every people manager would feel they should start with employee experience. * Marni says she’s worked on teams who had some really hard problems to solve, but she had really good people. + “We’ve had a lot of real problems to solve, but I had really good people. And they knew if there were on the phone at 2 in the morning, I was going to be on the phone at 2 in the morning with them. They knew that when we got off that call we were going to have a little lessons learned session, and we were not going to have that problem again. They knew that I didn’t want them to have to be on the phone at 2 in the morning.” – Marni Coffey + Marni would not stand for anyone treating any member of her team in a disrespectful way, regardless of the person’s working location. + The people leader cannot look at their team as “minions.” Team members are the ones doing the work. The people leader’s job is to make their employees successful.
14:54 – Change Management* Some of the examples given earlier were really about change management. When you work for a global company like PepsiCo, what are some of the considerations that go into change management of systems designed to support a global workforce that others may no realize? + At global companies, every system change makes an impact. The system gets used by someone 24 hours per day, and you cannot avoid impacting at least someone when making a change. + It is important to communicate when a system will have downtime, what the change will be, when the change will happen, and what the system behavior might be during the change. + A change may impact a specific region like North America or even just one specific team that is using a system capability. + Marni stresses the importance of leveraging a change management process even for small changes at global organizations like PepsiCo. If a small change brings the entire system down, it can impact production business operations and become a priority 1 or priority 2 incident. Technology operations teams are on the hook to get these resolved quickly. + Change management is extremely important for global organizations, but even at smaller companies, you are likely talking with other team members about changes that will be made to different systems. - If you worked in an office of 10 people and were about to make a change that would only impact the people in that office, you would let the people in that office know about the change in advance. - At global companies like PepsiCo it’s a little more complex. You need the required documentation like an implementation plan, a pre-production and user acceptance testing plan, risk documents (if applicable), estimated downtime, a documented escalation path for system support, and a documented rollback plan. - The documentation needed is one thing, and then there is an approval flow for the change itself. - Marni would advise several days be allocated for getting a global change approved. It will take time to communicate with others who work in different countries and time zones. Change approvers may have questions or need further clarity of the change being made. - If your change is rejected, you have to start over. - “You will spend possibly four times as long on your change request as you do on your implementation.” – Marni Coffey, on change management + When we talk about downtime, this means a feature or function of a system or the entire system is unavailable for use. * John says people often complain about change management, but we have highlighted even small organizations have change management, even if it’s less formal. As an organization gets larger, the less we can rely on those informal lines of communication. + “The other thing that I always point out to people is the change management process and the requirement that you’re filling out is a response to a failure in the past that cost money.” – John White, on change management - For example, a risk analysis document was likely added to your change management process because previous changes did not have this and resulted in loss of money. + Marni says when the change process evolves or has new requirements, it affects all teams whose systems are governed by change management. And it might not even be your area that was the reason for the adjustment to the change management process. + John thinks a good change management process leads people through the process of thinking through things they should have but maybe didn’t or would not think of without the process in place. + “Did you tell people you were going to do this? Did you send out an e-mail letting them know you were going to do this and after this is done this is going to be different? There’s a lot there. You don’t think about those things.” – Marni Coffey, reflecting on how change management gives you a checklist for thinking through system changes + Marni mentioned when she was a developer, she would just make changes. Then people would come to her and point out specific issues which were caused by the change that was made. + “The end user always does something you never think anyone would do. So that’s why you have change management. That’s why you have user acceptance testing. Because they are going to find the holes in your program, in your system that you did not know were there, that you wouldn’t even think to check for….” – Marni Coffey + John tells the story of an end user who kept important e-mails in the trash folder. This person was impacted when John and his company implemented automatic e-mail trash emptying. * John points out a dynamic tension between the change management process we’re talking about (strict change management) and companies like Netflix and Amazon who are constantly changing their products (a more agile form of change management). + Marni mentions being agile does not mean you skip change management altogether. + “Agile is for development. It’s for quick development. It’s not so you can skip change management. It just means you need to plan a little better to include it.” – Marni Coffey, on change management and agile + Marni describes the tension with development teams and change management. She would have to tell development teams they were not following agile development because they had not included a change manager in their process (someone dedicated to submitting change requests and ensuring they get approved). - Change management operates on a schedule. Approved changes have dates and times they will be applied. Marni had to tell people in her past roles that the change someone wanted (which didn’t go through change management) could not be placed ahead of previously approved changes. - Marni says it can help other teams when you explain the why behind the change management process, the need to follow it, and documentation / templates to help teams get started in following the proper processes. This helped ease the burden of going through agile development and change management. - “We developed templates, little change management scripts, templates for what the change approval board is going to look for…. We did a lot of helping people and getting them up to speed on it as long as we could…. Anything we could do to relieve the pain of the change management process encouraged them to follow it.” – Marni Coffey, on helping other teams follow the appropriate change management process as part of agile development - Marni’s operations team was able to empathize with the work needed to do proper change management. They understood what other teams felt when they were new to following the proper processes for change management and sought to provide guidance and help. This came in the form of templates or even directing others to people with more expertise on the process when needed.
25:04 – Improving Employee Experience and Career Development* How does someone improve the employee experience through career development discussions? + One of the first things Marni did with her current team was suggest each member work with her to create a career development plan. + In order to do this Marni would… - Learn about each person - Ask what they would like to be doing - Understand strengths - Ask about areas of development / improvement - Gauge perceived struggles and roadblocks to progression - Consider ways to make connections for her employees to meet the right people – one example was using presentations to other groups to build relationships - Help the person gain visibility through participation in certain projects + Career development is a huge part of Marni’s job. She is constantly thinking about what will happen to her people when they are ready to move on. + Marni has a great team and understands it is not reasonable to keep team members forever. Keeping someone in the same position for too long creates an unmotivated, unhappy person. + “I am constantly looking for that next opportunity for my people, even though it means I’m going to have to fill a position. It’s going to be hard. I am going to have a partner at the end of it because I helped them. I supported them in any way they needed to get them to that next step.” – Marni Coffey - In developing a partner in this way, Marni would have shared some of her experiences and suggested some development for the person, for example. - Also, McKesson has a networking / mentoring program to help employees develop. - Marni mentioned the people in her leadership chain really care about the career paths of everyone within the organization. She does not have to try to develop her people without sponsorship. + According to Marni, the people leader should always be developing their people. + Marni cites a member of her team she feels has the potential to be her boss one day. She sees the potential and truly wants to be a positive part of that journey for employees on her team. * What was it like to have career conversations with people for the first time on Marni’s new team? + Marni said she had different reactions from every team member despite asking them the same questions. + Some people knew what they wanted to do next. Some had not really thought about what they wanted to do next and acted a little guarded. + Marni prepared for the meetings and laid out the strong points of each person during the conversation. Some team members were surprised at the things Marni pointed out as strengths. - Marni pointed out strengths she saw as someone who had experienced the team member without knowing them extremely well. - Marni shares the story of someone who believed herself to be the quiet one on the team. Marni pointed out this person was very good at presentations and encouraged her to present to some senior leaders (which went extremely well). + A member of the team thought at first it might not be very productive to have a career conversation with Marni. + “But I think over time they realized that I am the person I said I was. I really am that person. I really do care about them. And I do care about their careers. And I do care if they’re doing ok day to day, getting their jobs done. I do care if they are successful, and I do care if people know they’re successful…. And over time…and I’ll admit I thought it would take longer…I have developed a bond with my new team. I haven’t even been there a year, but I feel like we are a team. We are a really good, strong, cohesive team. And now, they are all actively engaged in their development plans. They see that there are people in their corner that want to help them get there. They take those steps. They are engaging. And it’s exciting to see someone wake up like that…. They were just heads down doing their jobs not thinking about themselves, and it’s important to think about yourself. It’s important to think about your career development. No company gets better if you stay exactly where you are. You have to move on and be successful and do great things and keep doing better things and getting better than that for the company to be successful.” – Marni Coffey, on career conversations with her team (a mic drop moment) * Should a career conversation result in homework for both the employee and the manager? + Yes! Marni says this is a partnership and not a hierarchy. + Marni has things to do for her team, and they have things they need to do for themselves. + Deliverables still need to be completed. That doesn’t go away. But doing a great job is how you get the recognition, which allows your manager to “talk you up” and for others to see the great things you have done. + Most people probably meet their deliverables. It’s more about how someone did it than anything. + At McKesson, the organization wants all employees to exhibit leadership. It’s about taking charge, facilitating change, and having an enterprise mindset (all part of winning mindsets to incorporate on a daily basis). + “I think it’s important also that they understand it’s up to them. I empower to lead and lead by example, but they have to seize that empowerment. They have to take control and do what they’re going to do. And they can all do it. You just have to empower them to do it. They have to believe it, and then they have to go act on it.” – Marni Coffey + If John gave Marni feedback, he would say she exhibits not only empathy but also authenticity. The joining of these is extremely powerful.
Mentioned in the Outro* Is technical lead or team lead something you want to pursue, and if so, will you decide to develop people? Could you already be developing people even without being in that role? + We know the tech lead is going to have to communicate with many stakeholders throughout the organization. Hopefully that makes you a more effective communicator. + There is another benefit for the team lead / tech lead that falls in line with career development. Being in the role could allow you to learn about other groups and different roles within those groups that you might want to pursue later in your career. It also helps you make connections and meet more people. * Meeting deliverables is more about the how. Marni is modeling for us that we can meet our deliverables in a way that shows others who we are and that we will do the things we say we will do. We can show authenticity like Marni does. * The discussion of change management made Nick think of career change management. + People leaders consistently have to do this (or the good ones do it, at least) – change management for the careers of the people on the team. + The individual development plans are like collaborating with the people you lead on the documentation needed for them to submit a future career change. The person whose career could change gets to submit the change request when they are ready.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
If asked about your greatest skill, how would you answer? Could you even answer the question? Our guest this week was asked to name her greatest skill in a job interview, and the answer is one of the most important skills of effective people managers.
Marni Coffey is a Senior Manager for Business Systems and Indirect Sourcing and Procurement at McKesson, and her greatest skill is empathy. In this discussion Marni will share her early career as a web developer, why she didn’t like being a consultant, thoughts on creating an inclusive team culture, and the importance of connecting with the company where she works.
Original Recording Date: 05-19-2024
Topics – Meet Marni Coffey, Building Websites and an Internship, The Glamour of Consulting, Part of Something, Uncovering Empathy as a Skill, Relocation and Connecting with a Company2:18 – Meet Marni Coffey* Marni Coffey is the Senior Manager for Business Systems and Indirect Sourcing and Procurement at McKesson. + McKesson is a healthcare company. They do pharmaceutical distribution, medical supplies and equipment, etc. Before Marni started working for McKesson she didn’t quite realize how much McKesson does. + Nick remembers ordering from McKesson years ago when he worked at Wal-Mart Pharmacy. + John mentioned McKesson is the brand of tissues he sees at his physician’s office. + During the time Marni has been at McKesson she has been able to learn about all the things McKesson does. Marni has been able to hear stories of patients impacted by the work McKesson does, feeling it is inspiring to work for the company.
4:20 – Building Websites and an Internship* Marni originally thought she was going to be a high school English teacher. After working as a substitute teacher at a private school while still in college, Marni realized teaching was not for her. This prompted a change of major to focus on Management Information Services or MIS (sometimes called Management Information Systems). + Marni loved building websites and wanted to do something like it. + While still working toward the English degree, Marni had taken on a project to bring a Chicano literature site into copyright compliance. She also took a job in the computer lab at her college to support an online class at one point. + Marni considered majoring in computer science, but she felt there was too much mathematics required for it. That prompted the selection of MIS as her major. * Marni’s interest in building websites came from deciding to build a Wonder Woman fan site, and she really enjoyed the process of building. + She was also working for the school newspaper, and some of it was done online. Marni enjoyed the writing process and thought it would be fun to build her own website where she could do the same thing on her own. That site was never finished. + As Marni built websites, she enjoyed playing around with all kinds of functionalities like theming. Then she learned about databases to have data-driven sites and loved that too. - “And I just immediately turned into this giant programming nerd…. Most of what I learned I learned from just digging in and learning because by the time you get through your classes, what you learned there is already obsolete. It’s moving fast.” – Marni Coffey * Marni had an internship with Logix Communications through her college focused on solving real-world problems like building an intranet site for Logix employees. She and one of her classmates were chosen to participate. + Upon bringing some problems and situations from the internship back to her classes, no one seemed to be able to help Marni. + Marni and her classmate were offered jobs with Logix in Oklahoma City after their internships. There was a great deal of freedom to learn, but the pay wasn’t great.
8:51 – The Glamour of Consulting* After about 9 months, Marni was offered a position as a consultant in Colorado, a place she had always wanted to live. The pay was also triple what she was being paid at Logix. Being a consultant seemed like a glamorous role. + The consulting role was initially with an online college, and Marni and others were building an eLibrary. + This experience taught Marni that being a consultant wasn’t as glamorous as she thought it might be. She also realized sometimes people can use software in ways it was never intended, and though these people may get praise for it, these scenarios could cause future problems. * When she left consulting after not really enjoying it, Marni went to work for a printing company next. + “I realized I’m much happier being part of a team in a company because you don’t just build something and go away…. You are invested in it. If you are working there and you build it you are invested in it. You want to build something that you can support and that is going to be valuable to the company.” – Marni Coffey + Nick says many people may like consulting because of the ability to work with many companies and their respective technology stacks for a time. + Marni realized she could branch out more within a company. She would encourage us to find somewhere we can have a career – a place where we can try new things over time. It might be a little slower than working in consulting, however. + “I felt like you got to do a little bit of everything as a consultant…. I think I was more attracted to building an actual solution with a process and making it all work. And seeing that happen and being able to partner across that enterprise and that organization with other people and make it work as this big machine was really fascinating to me. That was where it was at to me…. I wanted to build something and grow it.” – Marni Coffey + Marni also had a young child during this time, did not enjoy the travel, and didn’t like hopping around to different assignments. Building relationships within an organization was also important. - What was attractive to Marni (working within a company instead of consulting) might not be attractive to everyone. She mentions we can work in consulting without needing to do heavy travel. There are options. - Marni also likes the continuous improvement aspect of things once a solution is built (i.e. the maintaining of systems). She knows the importance of not letting things get stale in technology.
13:25 – Part of Something* How did working as a consultant and not really enjoying it affect the way Marni worked with consultants after that experience? + Marni tells us it can be harder to manage consultants and work with them. It takes a partnership and requires an investment from the consultants in what they are building. + “To do that you have to include them. You have to make them feel like they are part of that team. They are part of something. They’re part your group. They are not just some consultant that comes in and does the work and goes home. They’re part of something. It’s almost like a family.” – Marni Coffey, on working with consultants + We should make the consultants feel like there’s part of them in what they are doing, and it will urge them to make it as good as it can be. + Marni has worked with a number of consultants who didn’t want to leave for that next assignment. + “But once they got where we were, working with me, they wanted to stay. That’s because I recognized early that you had to invest them somehow, and the easiest way to do that is to make them feel like they are part of that team… You value their input, and you all work together to build something really amazing…. It’s what I always wanted to feel as a consultant.” – Marni Coffey + Marni didn’t feel like she was part of a team when she was a consultant. Her job was to build something and then move on to the next thing. - Marni wanted consultants she worked with later in her career to feel included in a way she wished she had been. - She wanted them to have real ownership of the projects on which they worked. - Marni doesn’t recall any consultant she has worked with having an adverse reaction to being included. + Nick points out Marni is being inclusive in a way people do not expect, especially if you know someone is only going to be working with you for a short time. - “Yeah, I think they don’t expect it. But I think it gives them something they didn’t know they needed.” – Marni Coffey, on the need to feel included * We talked about being inclusive and making consultants feel like part of the team, but how did Marni do it? What were the tactics of inclusion? + Marni learned the value of being on teams when she worked as a waitress in college. The people she worked with were more like a family who did things together outside of work and knew about one another’s lives. + If planning to go to a happy hour, a dinner, a movie, etc. invite everyone on the team and not just your best work friends. You will likely find you have more in common with teammates than you realize once you’re out in a personal setting. - Once you have the familiarity with people outside work in a personal setting, it’s easier to make them feel like they are part of something at work because they are part of a group. - The pandemic made this challenging, but people thought up creative ways to do Zoom events like costume parties, etc. + “I always try to bring a little something personal into my meetings so that people see you as a human being…. Tell them something embarrassing that happened, or tell them something fun you did.” – Marni Coffey - If you do things like the above and give others the chance to share things about themselves, it can lead to a tighter knit team. + This reminds John of “the freedom to bring your whole self to work.” It is a skill to promote a workplace where this is encouraged. - Making people feel comfortable enough to bring their whole selves to work is part of the skill. * Should we expect that no matter how much we try to include others some will still consistently say no to our invitations and attempts to include them? + Marni says people could say no for many reasons (family, other personal reasons), and she never takes it personally. + Even if someone declines an invite to some sort of team event, Marni continues to invite them and shares the experiences with them (which includes sharing photos). + “You were missed is a powerful message to send to somebody. I really like that.” – John White, on the topic of including others + When Marni tells someone they were missed, she means it. She often thinks about what someone would have liked about an event they missed. * Was the skill of inclusion something Marni learned at some point in her career? + “If I were acting this way, if I were this detached, why would I be that way, and what would make me feel more included? I start there. I try to put myself in that person’s shoes.” – Marni Coffey + When interviewing for her current position, Marni was asked about her greatest skill. She said it is empathy. - Empathy is about putting yourself in the shoes of others and thinking about what might be happening, why the person could be feeling a certain way, what might make things better, how to get them more engaged, etc. - This is Marni’s go to strategy when all else fails.
22:03 – Uncovering Empathy as a Skill* How did Marni know empathy was her greatest skill to answer that interview question? Nick isn’t sure he would have been able to come up with an answer to that if put on the spot. + Marni knew empathy was her greatest skill when she was at PepsiCo (the place she worked right before McKesson). + Marni grew a great deal at PepsiCo and began as a developer there. + “Over time, I started to get more leadership roles. It was more that there was a void. Nobody was doing it. I just did it. No one asked me to do it. I just did it, and no one told me to stop. So I continued to do it. Every time I would work on a project I would end up as the lead because no one else was really doing it, and they needed one…. Reluctantly, every single big step in my career has been volunteering to do something that no one else wanted to do.” – Marni Coffey, reflecting on her time at PepsiCo - Over time Marni eventually became a people manager. + No one wanted to manage the Mac machines, and Marni volunteered. This allowed her to hone some skills with a smaller group. + When asked to manage the mobile devices at PepsiCo at a global scale (something no one wanted to do), Marni agreed to do it. She saw something that needed to be done and did it. + At first, Marni was the mobile device team lead. She had a conversation with the manager of the team about the challenges she was facing in working with the team. In that conversation she asked to be the manager of the team so she could start to build it. The manager at that time transferred the role to her on the spot. + “So that’s how I got to be a people manager. I just stepped in where no one was managing the people and started to manage them.” – Marni Coffey + Marni started off asking the people on her team about pain points of their job with the goal of improving the employee experience. She knew that would improve employee performance and the service end users received. + “It’s a domino effect, but it starts, I think, with employee experience. You can’t have customer satisfaction without employee experience I don’t think…. I just kind of fell into people management. I won’t say I fell into it. I bull rushed it. I went in and just took over and just did it because no one else was doing it… And then they gave me the title of people manager, and I realized how much I loved it.” – Marni Coffey + It was in this people management role where Marni realized her greatest skill was empathy – being able to put herself in the shoes of another person and think about what she would want if in the same situation. + “I think if you can find out what people want, what they want for themselves, and there’s a way that you can give them that or at least some of that, that’s how you start to begin to build those relationships and those partnerships and you help each other.” – Marni Coffey * John wonders if this feeds back into Marni needing to figure things out for herself like when she was building websites. + Part of it was watching groups of people have no leadership to help them or clear a path for them. + “So, people leadership for me, if you think that you’re going to step into it and be the big boss, you don’t know what people leadership is. They don’t work for you. You work for them. It is your job to make it possible for them to be successful. Get things out of their way. Make it a little easier for them to be successful, to be able to do their jobs and excel even.” – Marni Coffey + Marni seeks to ensure people understand her goal is to support people in the way that is needed for them to get the recognition they deserve. If people understand you are genuine and authentic about this they will work hard for you. - Marni mentions she’s had people work 24 hours straight with no break to solve a problem because they knew she would be right there with them the entire time. The people knew Marni wasn’t going to take the recognition but would make sure they were recognized for the work done. - Marni had seen people suffer through not having this. - “It was the empathy that made me feel like someone needs to do something here. Someone needs to help them. And no one was, so I did.” – Marni Coffey
28:30 – Relocation and Connecting with a Company* Marni relocated from Colorado to Texas to take the developer job at PepsiCo originally. There were some personal reasons behind the move as well. + Most of Marni’s family lived in Texas, but her father was living with her in Colorado and in poor health. Her mother was also in poor health. + Marni moved to Texas and had intended to continue working for the same company based in Colorado. But in the process of moving she took a couple of interviews – one at Raytheon and one at PepsiCo. - Raytheon offered her a full-time position, and PepsiCo offered her a contract to hire position. - “On paper, the Raytheon offer looked better, but I kind of need to connect with my company. I need to really believe in what they’re doing. And it’s not that I didn’t really believe in what Raytheon was doing. It was more that I didn’t really relate to it as much as I related to working for Pepsi because I had been consuming their products forever…my whole life…. I knew who they were. I loved their products. It was just a light, bright atmosphere. I liked the people. I really liked the people that I interviewed with.” – Marni Coffey, on choosing to work for PepsiCo + Marni was happy in Colorado, but it felt like Texas was where she was supposed to be and that the job at PepsiCo was the right one. - Marni was replacing a developer at PepsiCo who had left the company, and she had to deconstruct the system to figure out how things worked. No one knew if she was right about how things worked, and she put in the effort to make sure she was. + Nick mentions not everyone needs to connect with their employer, but if it’s important to you to connect to a company’s mission and purpose, it should be on your priority list when you look for a job.
Mentioned in the Outro* The life of a consultant may not be for everyone, and it was not for Marni. She needed to be part of something. + We can contrast this with Chris Williams and his desire to pursue consulting as a way to prevent boredom from Episode 229. + Marni loves to build things like systems, but she isn’t just a builder. She is a builder, a grower, and a maintainer. She wants to see systems cared for and continuously improved. - Pay attention to which of those aspects you like to do as it may guide you to the opportunity you should pursue next in your career. * The pattern of tinkering with technology is present in Marni’s story just like with many of our other guests. + Tinkering can be a way to learn how systems work. + Marni tinkered with websites, going deep in certain areas and even working with databases to form an integrated system. * Though not stated in the interview directly, the idea of inclusion is really an aspect of team culture. + We discussed a number of inclusion tactics people leaders can leverage to great a great team culture. + We learned in Episode 238 that managers are culture keepers. A specific team in a company may have a great culture, but that does not mean every team inside the company does. It is going to depend on the leader of that team. + The inclusivity we discussed applies to contractors, part-time employees, full-time employees, and even interns. People who work with a specific group or team in any capacity, regardless of the amount of time spent, can be contributors and take some ownership. * It wasn’t like Marni had set her sights on people leadership necessarily. She saw gaps and decided to fill them and turned out to be great at managing people. The empathy has served her well. + It seems like Marni seeks to be the type of leader she wishes she worked for at some point.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Have you checked out the Packet Pushers Job Board? According to trends Ethan Banks of Packet Pushers is seeing, companies need experienced senior technical people who are comfortable working with a complex IT stack. If you are one of those people, you are in demand, even during times of industry layoffs.
It’s challenging for the business owner to continue doing the work they love because administrative tasks can get in the way. Ethan Banks, co-founder of Packet Pushers Podcast Network and our guest this week in Episode 277, has arranged his company so he can focus on the work he is uniquely suited to deliver – creating content. Ethan will share thoughts on industry talent shortages and how his role as a business owner has changed since we last spoke with him.
Original Recording Date: 04-19-2024
Ethan Banks is a network engineer, business owner, and one of the founders of Packet Pushers. If you missed part 1 of this discussion, check out Episode 276.
Topics – A Network Effect and the Need for Senior Personnel, The Changing Nature of Ethan’s Role as a Business Owner, Appreciating What’s NowA Returning Guest* It’s been 5 years since we shared Ethan’s career story on the show. You can find our earlier discussions here: + Episode 42 – Ethan Banks and the Journey to Career Self-Awareness + Episode 43 – Ethan Banks on Podcasting and Turning a Hobby into the Packet Pushers
2:58 – A Network Effect and the Need for Senior Personnel* John asks Ethan what it has been like to create a business that has a network effect as opposed to a broadcast business. + Ethan says the jobs board will work best once there are thousands of listings. But there are some challenges to this because it’s new, much like starting a new podcast or any new endeavor. It takes time to grow. + The Packet Pushers team has started by letting people know the jobs board exists by listing it on their websites, using ads within existing shows, and putting it in their newsletter. + “But over time it’s going to grow. We’re already seeing evidence of that. It’s not even been 6 months yet, and we’re already seeing substantial growth and some interesting jobs being listed.” – Ethan Banks * What kind of gaps does Ethan see as a result of layoffs in our industry? + “I can tell you this. Looking at the kinds of jobs we’re seeing listed on the job board, companies need seniors. Companies need people that have experience. Companies need people that have a lot of skills. Those are tough positions to fill.” – Ethan Banks + For those with 10 or more years of experience and expert / professional level certifications who are used to working with a complex technology stack… - “Companies are looking for you. You are hard to come by. You are rare and increasingly rare as the IT tech stack continues to grow in complexity.” – Ethan Banks, a message to senior technology professionals + Many highly skilled former network practitioners have gone on to and work for technology vendors (like Cisco and Juniper to give a couple of examples). That takes them “off the board” as a practitioner. - This trend can keep companies short staffed with network engineers, including consulting firms. - “There’s lots of work out there, and it’s hard to find the people to get that work done. The people who are the seniors tend to be overworked. So if you’re someone with those skills, you’re in demand…. Even with layoffs, if you’ve got the right skills, there’s a place for you. That’s the struggle that I think companies are having.” – Ethan Banks + Ethan isn’t seeing junior level positions advertised as much these days and not a lot of mid-tier positions either. - “But the senior ones especially – tech lead, senior network engineer, network architect, cybersecurity architect…those sorts of titles seem to be in demand.”- Ethan Banks + John mentions to be senior and working on relevant technology you need to have been in the industry for a time through a couple of technology cycles. - “In networking it’s additive. It’s not enough to know how to build VLANs and routing. Now, that’s just your foundational network. You need to have a stable underlay, and now we’re going to stick an overlay on top of it…. And so you’ve got these other sets of skills that you’re expected to have.” – Ethan Banks - In networking you might need to dig into security and applying profiles to the network or learn network automation tooling. This might include things like learning GitOps, writing unit tests, using Ansible playbooks, and dealing with code pipelines (CI / CD pipelines). * Maybe you as a network engineer never login to a device to manage it but rather push a configuration to it from elsewhere. It requires a different set of skills to manage the network this way. - Ethan tells us these additional skills a network engineer is expected to have are related to the complexities and what it takes to deliver IT infrastructure.
8:52 – The Changing Nature of Ethan’s Role as a Business Owner* Nick feels like this idea of being additive has to be analogous to the life of a business owner as the business changes and grows over time. How has Ethan’s role changed since we last spoke? + “The challenge of a small business that has a lot going on in the engine room if you will, on the operational side of things (which is where I’ve spent most of my time), is it gets to be difficult to do the thing you started out doing, the reason you went into business, which for me was to make content. I want to make content for people. I want to deliver podcasts. I want to write. I want to write newsletters. I want to write articles. I want to do research. I want to talk to vendors and figure out what it is that they’re selling and what their new technology is and what it does…and so on. All of that takes a lot of time.” – Ethan Banks + In addition to the above, Ethan might have to give someone at the company permissions to access a file or perform a certain task, fix a problem with spam e-mails, etc. These things can be technical things or more administrative like needing to meet with a tax accountant. + “There’s only so many hours in the week…. There’s only so much your brain can multi-task on. There’s only so much you can think about effectively without exhausting yourself…. Over time…we kind of burned ourselves into the ground honestly running the business. I tended to focus more on operations stuff. Greg is very good at sales. He was doing a lot of the sales work. And we were both, of course, content creators with multiple podcasts, building our YouTube channel, and all that kind of work too.” – Ethan Banks + Ethan and Greg eventually had to hire people. - In 2023 they brought on a CEO who will handle administrative tasks like payroll, setting up podcast feeds for new shows Packet Pushers might launch, and other back office type tasks. - They also hired a VP of Sales. That person’s job is to make sure proper conversations are happening with sponsors, understand sponsor needs and fit, and share how Packet Pushers can help sponsors. - Ethan says having extra people on staff is helpful, but he’s still learning how to delegate (a struggle for Ethan over the course of his career). His hand is being somewhat forced because if he does not delegate, Ethan won’t have time to do everything else he needs to do. - “It’s been a good learning process for me…now that I’m being a manager again…to actually figure out how to enable the people that we’ve hired to do their jobs effectively and not get in their way so that I can focus on the things that I am uniquely suited to deliver. Not everyone…has my background and way of thinking and looking at something so that I can deliver a podcast on a particular topic. I can do that. My CEO can’t. My VP of Sales can’t. They can do these other things, so why get in their way? And that’s a thing that I’ve been having to learn over the last few months…” – Ethan Banks - Ethan says he’s been doing pretty well lately in this area (delegation) and not getting in the way of other employees. Ethan feels he has been happier lately because he’s been able to do the research and content development work that is most enjoyable to him. + Nick thinks this goes back to our discussion of choosing to stop doing something so we can put our time and effort into a new area. It can be hard when you have been doing something for a long time and decide to stop. - Ethan agrees it can be very hard to hand over something you’ve been doing for a long time to someone else. He gives the example of doing taxes for so long and then not needing to handle it this year. His job was to share what he had been doing with someone else in hopes they could find a better way to do it moving forward. * Was the separation with Greg handling more of the sales side and Ethan handling more operations that way from the beginning? + Greg and Ethan each did some operations and some sales in the beginning, but the split was pretty natural. + Greg had a sales background from earlier in his career. Greg had done sales training earlier in his career and understood how the process works. + Ethan had been a pre-sales engineer and remembers having to keep salespeople in check. + Ethan says Greg is naturally more gregarious, while he is more introverted. Ethan doesn’t mind selling and isn’t ashamed of speaking about what his company does and how they help other companies and individuals. + “I’m not a salesperson by the way my brain works. My brain is an engineer brain. I build things. I troubleshoot things. I think about how things fit together. That’s how my mind goes. So to me a sales proposition’s like ‘so this is what we do. Do you want to buy it?’ That’s kind of…it….That’s not what sales is all about. Sales is more like…it’s building a relationship with another human so that there’s trust and an understanding of what’s going on, and eventually money gets exchanged. That’s part of it, but that’s not the core of it. The core of sales is actually the human relationship. And I am so engineering minded that I forget that and I have to really work at that. Even though I like people…I don’t have the natural sales knack I don’t think.” – Ethan Banks
16:50 – Appreciating What’s Now* What is Ethan’s favorite part of things now that maybe he did not expect? + Packet Pushers’ original incarnation was a single podcast, but Ethan’s favorite thing now is seeing Packet Pushers grow beyond that. - They have created additional podcasts with a similar mission and have enabled other people to have a voice that can share knowledge with their audience. - “It’s not just Ethan or Greg or Drew or the regulars who work for Packet Pushers talking. It’s all these other people in the community that now have their shows on our platform that are talking.” – Ethan Banks + Packet Pushers is putting out more information in the same format as they intended originally – deeply technical and engineering focused. It has scaled beyond just Ethan and Greg. + “That means, in theory, someday I don’t have to have a podcast. But the original idea, the thing that we wanted to do is still there. We can still have these conversations happening in the community…for the betterment of the industry.” – Ethan Banks - Many of the conversations in the community are bringing vendors and practitioners together. - Ethan says vendors can sometimes live in their own bubble, thinking they know what practitioners need. But they might not know. In fact, many vendors are seeking feedback from Packet Pushers and from the greater community of practitioners. - “The podcast conversations that we have, since it does involve vendors and it does involve practitioners, mean it’s an opportunity for the industry to figure each other out.” – Ethan Banks - Bringing vendors and practitioners together is a chance for both sides to give and get feedback. Vendors need to know if they are building the right thing or what might need improvement in what they have already built. - Ethan tells us they have received feedback from listeners many times that by just listening someone felt like the smartest person in a room and had an insight to share that made them look great at work. - “Yes! That’s it! That’s the point. You listen to the shows and you can keep up with everything that’s going on without having to go to courses and endlessly troll the internet looking through feeds. Just listen to the show. We’re going to keep you up on the latest on what’s going on. And you’ll understand the use cases and how it works and whether it fits into your company or not…. That’s the point. There’s wins there when that happens.” – Ethan Banks
Mentioned in the Outro* Congratulations to Ethan Banks and Greg Farrow of Packet Pushers on 14 years of producing content! * As Ethan said, if you are a senior level technologist, you are needed in the industry, even during times of layoff.
+ Check out the Packet Pushers Job Board to see if your resume / LinkedIn accurately reflects the experience you have. It’s also a great way to think about what could be next for your career.
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One of Ethan’s favorite things was what Nick feels was a manager’s answer.
- Packet Pushers growing beyond its original idea means it’s no longer just Ethan and Greg. The impact they have made by giving other people voices has widened (multiple shows now with different hosts). It is making a difference in the overall technical community of practitioners and vendors. This community that they have nurtured continues to grow, and we know they are proud of this.
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Nick asked Ethan a bonus question after the interview was recorded about what aspects made Greg and Ethan well suited to become business partners. How did they end up working so well together? What can listeners learn to look for in a good business partner?
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"To have a successful business relationship, each partner has to have well-aligned goals for the business as well a similar business ethic. Greg and I are both for the practitioner first in our content. We want to give practitioners a voice, to share practitioners stories and perspectives, and to tell vendor stories in a way a practitioner wants to hear them.
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Ethically, we were also well-aligned. We have never traded on our audience identities, for example. We don’t sell our mailing lists. We deliver on our commitments in a timely fashion. We pay our bills on time. Employees get paid before we get paid. Be financially cautious and conservative. Etc. We’ve never had any tension about business finances, as we both think about money in the same way.
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That said, we’re not identical people. Have we disagreed on things over the years? Of course. In a business, there’s any number of small details that come up, whether it’s the font you’re going to use on the website to what kind of promo materials to make. In those cases where there’s disagreement, there’s got to be enough flexibility on the part of one of both partners to let the little stuff go as long as the important things are aligned.
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Greg and I have always been good at that. Lots of give and take over the years.
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I suppose the final key component is trust. Do you trust your business partner to behave on behalf of the business the way you want? Do you trust your business partner to be ethical with clients, employees, and you? If there’s a lack of trust, there’s tension, and tension leads to a breakdown in the partner relationship. Greg and I built trust early in our relationship, and even had thoughtful conversations about how we’d conduct ourselves in different settings.
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For example, we agreed at one point that at conferences where we were in a setting where people knew us, we’d limit alcohol consumption. Too much alcohol is a bad thing for people like us who are often subject to NDAs or privy to embargoed information. Plus, we didn’t want to create a reputation as party guys. We took the job of Packet Pushers seriously, and trusted each other to represent the brand in public appropriately." – Ethan Banks
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman * Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
We often talk about lifecycle management in technology, but every job and personal or professional project has a lifecycle that needs managing from beginning to end. When we start a job or a career, we don’t know when the end of that lifecycle will come.
This week in episode 276 we’re joined by Packet Pushers co-founder Ethan Banks. As we talk through the lifecycle and evolution of podcasts on the Packet Pushers Podcast Network, we relate that to technology projects and personal experiences. Ethan will also share details on the new Packet Pushers Job Board and how it can be a helpful resource that pairs up the job seeker with companies needing specific technical talent.
Original Recording Date: 04-19-2024
Topics – Ethan Banks Returns, Pandemic Impact on Packet Pushers, Staying Broad and Going Deep, Longevity and the Lifecycle of Everything, The Packet Pushers Job Board2:35 – Ethan Banks Returns* Ethan Banks is a network engineer, business owner, and one of the founders of Packet Pushers. It’s been 5 years since we shared Ethan’s career story on the show. You can find our earlier discussions here: + Episode 42 – Ethan Banks and the Journey to Career Self-Awareness + Episode 43 – Ethan Banks on Podcasting and Turning a Hobby into the Packet Pushers
3:25 – Pandemic Impact on Packet Pushers* In the past couple of years, John’s podcast listening has been pretty sparse. But how has Packet Pushers changed before and after the pandemic? + The business model at Packet Pushers is monetization through sponsorships. Packet Pushers creates and provides podcasts for technical people, and often times technology vendors will want to sponsor a discussion or an ad to air on one of the shows on Packet Pushers. + During the pandemic, technology vendors could not longer attend Cisco Live or VMware Explore because these kinds of events were cancelled, removing a major marketing channel for vendors. Packet Pushers became one of the outlets used for marketing during this time, and there was an influx of incoming sponsorships for probably a solid 2 years. - “We went through a two-and-a-half year period of just absolute insanity trying to keep up with demand.” – Ethan Banks, on the influx of Packet Pushers sponsors during the pandemic - As the pandemic died down, Packet Pushers went back to a more normal state, acting as one of many different marketing channels a technology vendor might use. + As a result of this, Ethan and team realized there wasn’t enough inventory (in terms of different podcasts airing) on Packet Pushers Network. - For example, if a podcast releases weekly, that is one show released per week that could be sponsored (i.e. one episode per week considered inventory). - Some shows were being booked for sponsorship weeks, months, and close to years in advance during the pandemic. It did not make sense to increase the release cadence of any existing show, so they worked to add new shows to provide more sponsorship opportunities. - “We’ve been trying to grow by adding more shows to the network so that there is availability for sponsors that want to work with us.” – Ethan Banks * Did the flood of potential sponsors change the vetting process for sponsors in any way? + Ethan says the vetting process for sponsors has been pretty standard since the very beginning. Packet Pushers works with sponsors in different ways: - Is the topic something the audience will care about because of a technology they work with, something they might be buying, or something they might be interested in? Would the audience care? The focus of the shows is enterprise technology, service provider technology, infrastructure, etc. - If the company who wants to sponsor a show is someone Ethan and team have never heard of, they might want to do a briefing to understand more detail on who the vendor is, what they are selling, and who the target audience / target market is. Based on these details, can Packet Pushers actually help the sponsor based on the audience of shows on their network? - Ethan gives the example of companies who make tooling for software developers. That isn’t really the audience of Packet Pushers shows and may not be a wise investment from the vendor whose target market is software developers. - The vetting process actually got even easier. The business was healthy financially even before the influx of sponsorships during the pandemic. - “We had so many companies that we were very familiar with and very comfortable working with that it was even easier, if anything.” – Ethan Banks, on vetting vendor sponsors during a time of high demand
9:11 – Staying Broad and Going Deep* How did they decide which shows to develop next based on some that have run for hundreds as episodes? How did they decide whether to pick a more focused channel within a topic they might already cover on a show in some form, and are there concerns about dilution? * Heavy Wireless and Network Automation Nerds are two shows from the Packet Pushers Network, but some of the topics from these shows could have been discussed on Heavy Networking. + Ethan tells us there is never a lack of content or topics to discuss. + Heavy Networking is the original show that started Packet Pushers (despite a change of name over time from Packet Pushers to the Weekly Show and then to Heavy Networking). It was the one that back in the day Ethan and Greg Farrow started, but its name needed to change as other shows were added. - Heavy Networking is a little bit of a catch all and allows for discussing anything network technology. They can discuss HTTP/3 and QUIC, for example, or go all the way to discussions of optical networking and DWDM. Anything in between is far game too. - “So what happens when there’s a show like Heavy Wireless? Do we never talk about wireless anymore just because Keith Parsons is over there, and he’s this globally renowned expert on wifi stuff? …Even though Keith…covers all of those topics thoroughly there’s still room on Heavy Networking to talk at some point this year in 2024 about Wi-Fi 7 because it’s coming to market and it’s going to have a bearing on network architectures…. We could run that show on Heavy Networking…. Now, what they might get into on Heavy Wireless, they might get deep into radio theory. They might get deep into the nuances of how client authentication works. And maybe we’re not doing that on Heavy Networking because we’re going to do the broader shows, something like that….” – Ethan Banks - There’s a show called Packet Protector that focuses on security, but it doesn’t mean they can never talk about security on Heavy Networking. - “There’s no lack of content topics to talk about. There’s different depths you can go into depending on your audience and what your focus is. There’s different people that come up, and there’s not room on every show for everybody. But if you have enough shows you can kind of make room for everybody who’s got a voice and something to share.” – Ethan Banks
13:12 – Longevity and the Lifecycle of Everything* Nick likes the broad overview and the chance to go deeper if the listener wants and speaks to where we should place our effort. With all these shows, how does Ethan decide when to end a show and stop putting effort toward it but into a new area? + Nick feels the technologist can learn from the reasoning here as we work on and put our efforts toward different projects. Ultimately we will have to decide when it might be time to stop something. + “Everything’s got a lifecycle. Technology has a lifecycle. Podcasts have a lifecycle. Our jobs and time with a company has a lifecycle – there’s a beginning and an end to it. And it’s not bad that something ends if it’s time has come…” – Ethan Banks + Ethan mentions the genesis of the Datanauts podcast that he once co-hosted with former guest Chris Wahl for 3 or 4 years. - Chris and Ethan met at a conference, had a great conversation, and immediately hit it off. They decided to start a podcast together, which became Datanauts. - At some point during the time of Datanauts airing, Packet Pushers became Ethan’s full-time profession. Chris was working for Rubrik at the time, which was a startup in hypergrowth mode. It was a very demanding job. - “It kind of got to the point where Datanauts was too big a rock to push uphill for us…. Sometimes the hill is too steep or the rock’s too heavy to keep pushing it.” – Ethan Banks, on deciding to end Datanauts - Even after slowing the release cadence a little, Ethan and Chris were unable to keep it going. - Ethan looks back on so many great conversations had on this show. The idea was to bring two technologists from different areas of expertise together. Ethan specialized in networking and security while Chris had expertise in virtualization and cloud technologies. - “Podcasting is not something you have to do for the rest of your life just because you start something….” – Ethan Banks * At Packet Pushers, they try to create shows that will have longevity. It takes time to build an audience. Longevity gives you the ability to cover a lot of topics with depth. + One thing Ethan and team are looking at as an option in the future is creating shows that are limited run series. These are not design to run forever but might be 20 episodes from beginning to end. + “…Kind of the same idea. It’s got a lifecycle, but we know from the beginning what that lifecycle is going to be. It’s more like delivering a course…but in podcast format.” – Ethan Banks, on the idea of limited series shows - Ethan says limiting the run of a series relieves the pressure to release something every week that a normal show brings. + Nick mentions when you have worked on something for a long time, it can become part of your identity. It could be a podcast, a blog, a project at work, a focus on a specific technology, etc. - Ethan built datacenter and campus networks for the better part of 20 years, and as he went from job to job, he stopped working on certain technologies. He gives the example of working on F5 at one company, getting very good at it but not working with that technology at his next employer. - Ethan mentions a Cisco AS5301, a router that was a bank of modems. It was a piece of technology he had to learn how to use quite well in the dial up days of internet service. With the advancements made with broadband internet, the technology became obsolete. - “Why do we need this any more? We don’t. And you shut it down, and you’re a little sad because…I was really good at that. Lifecyle again.” – Ethan Banks * John mentions as content producers we often get influenced by other content. We see limited run television shows, for example. But these usually come on a platform that allows informing people of the upcoming limited run series. Likely Packet Pushers can leverage their network in a similar way for limited run shows. + Ethan says there are many ways to amplify these series exist. Packet Pushers could publish them as part of the normal catalog, do promotional adds for the series on other shows, and even share in newsletters or on the website. + Nick thinks no matter what, doing a limited run series allows for learning because it’s different from a normal show. - Ethan says some of the shows they have the room to do a limited run series if needed. We discuss the example of some very long episodes that were released on a specific topic which in hindsight maybe should have been released in multiple parts. In a sense, a multi-part episode is a limited run series. - Right now the limited run series is in the ideation phase, so Ethan is excited at the potential for new learnings if they decide to do it. * What’s Ethan’s all-time favorite Packet Pushers show? + To this point Ethan has recorded well over 1000 shows, so it’s hard to pick a specific one. + Ethan does have a favorite type of show. Because of his networking engineering background, he loves the shows that involve one or multiple expert guests going deep into how technology works…but in a practical way. + “A conversation where you can get into the why of it all and then go deep on what’s actually happening under the hood that’s making it all happen and fulfilling that why, giving you the answers to that how you’re actually going to get it done are my favorite sorts of shows. And not every show that I record is like that. It all depends on what the topic is…. The really hard core nerdy engineering stuff is where I’m happiest….” – Ethan Banks - Some shows are more survey type shows. Others are a roundtable format, which can also be fun. Some shows are about career and career opportunity shows. + Ethan mentions people often use the type of shows he likes to produce (the ones that go deep on a technical topic) as references. - People use the shows to learn something new and often times to learn something they can’t get from a product manual. The deep technical discussions give them consideration points for using and operating technologies.
25:19 – The Packet Pushers Job Board* You can find the Packet Pushers Job Board at jobs.packetpushers.net. How did the board come to be, and how can it be a resource for people impacted by tech industry layoffs? + The job board was launched in January 2024, and Ethan feels it an extension of what they were doing in their Slack group (which you can join for free). There was a jobs Slack channel that encouraged job seekers and employers to find one another through posting about their needs. + Ethan mentions network engineers, especially those who are more senior, seem to be harder and harder to find. - Many older network engineers are starting to retire, and there are not many junior network engineers coming into the industry focused on networking. - The network stack is increasing in complexity, and it’s hard for companies to find talent to fill the job vacancies. - If you’re a network engineer who has been laid off, it can be difficult to find a role. Job seekers will consider options such as working fully remote, hybrid (some work from home some work from office), and full-time in office. Companies have differenct policies + “The jobs board was just an evolution of all of that. The idea is let’s give the community a place to find people with very particular skills because that’s the thing. If you’re a network engineer, if you’re a cybersecurity professional, if you’re a cloud guru…you got a very particular set of skills. How do you find a job that’s looking for your skills? If you’re looking for those people, do you just go to a recruiter and hope…or do you talk to the community that’s doing this stuff for a living and has those skills?” – Ethan Banks - If job descriptions and requirements are written well, the qualified people will read them and understand exactly what hiring managers are wanting. - The jobs board is an alternative to scraping LinkedIn or going to Indeed or some other similar site that allows posting job openings. + The jobs board is free for anyone who is looking for and wants to apply for a job. There is a low cost to post a job opening on the site. + The idea is to grow the job board into “a resource that helps people with very specific needs find people with very specific skills.”
Mentioned in the Outro* Nick really enjoyed the discussion of podcast lifecycle and the mention of Datanauts. He would like to give a HUGE shout out to Ethan Banks and Chris Wahl for creating that podcast which was so valuable to many of us (especially for Nick). * When something does end or reaches the end of its lifecycle, it doesn’t have to be the end of the world. It could be the chance to do something new and different that you have wanted to do for a while. It could be an opportunity in disguise. * Ethan’s statement about the lifecycle of something being unknown when we begin is very profound. We don’t know when our job at a company will end when we start it (not usually anyway) or when a project we’re working on personally or professionally might end due to life circumstances. + This is part of the reason we encourage people to document their accomplishments and use it to update LinkedIn, their resume, and create publicly accessible proof of work to stand out in the industry. * Nick says Ethan is right about podcasts like Packet Pushers provides providing a referenceable point for people to come back and learn something. + One way to become a top tier individual contributor and stand out is to educate yourself on what is happening in the industry by listening to podcasts, reading blogs, and being involved in a technical community in some way. You never know when something you learned in one of these areas could help you stand out in having an answer to an important problem. It doesn’t mean you have to spend a lot of time educating yourself, but you should spend time doing at least some. + This also goes back to lifecycle. There is a lifecycle to communities. We may participate in different communities over time based on our job and our focus. We might even participate in a different way after developing expertise (i.e. moving to a contributor in addition to just a question asker).
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
What if deep down you are afraid of achieving a goal? Could the fear of success be the very thing that motivates you to abandon your goal? What could you be getting by not finishing?
With the finish line in sight, perfectionism throws up its final roadblocks. To reach the end, we must address the fears of what’s next, what now, and the fear of things not being perfect once we achieve the goal. We can also architect a work environment and choose a data collection method to support positive progress based on previous successes and failures.
In episode 275, we’re joined by guest host Jason Gass to discuss the following chapters from Finish by Jon Acuff and provide some final thoughts as this series comes to a close:
- Chapter 7: Use Data to Celebrate Your Imperfect Progress
- Chapter 8: The Day before Done
Original Recording Date: 04-07-2024
Topics – A Book Discussion Series, How You Work Best and Some is Better than Perfect, Chapter 8: The Day before Done, Final ThoughtsA Book Discussion Series* This is part 3 of a book discussion series centered on Finish: Give Yourself the Gift of Done by Jon Acuff. + If you missed part 1 of our discussion, check out Episode 272.In that first episode we discussed the following topics: - Reasons Jason Gass (our special guest host in this series) recommended the book - Chapter 1 – The Day after Perfect - Chapter 2 – Cut Your Goal in Half + If you missed part 2 of our discussion, check out Episode 273. In that second episode in the series we discussed: - Chapter 3 – Choose What to Bomb - Chapter 4 – Make It Fun if You Want It Done - Chapter 5 – Leave Your Hiding Places and Ignore Noble Obstacles + If you missed part 3 of our discussion, check out Episode 274. In that third episode in the series we discussed: - Chapter 6 – Get Rid of Your Secret Rules - Chapter 7 – Use Data to Celebrate Your Imperfect Progress
3:34 – How You Work Best and Some is Better than Perfect* The next section discussed the idea of learning how you work best. John says this is more of a focused example of answering questions about the last time you tried a goal and whether you were successful or not. + Acuff gives the example of people working well on planes. It may not be that for all of us. What specifically about the environment of being on a plane led to success? We can brainstorm on that for a second. - Maybe it was the set start and end time, a poor internet connection, white noise, ease of focusing on work instead of socialization, etc. + For Nick it was helpful to work at a Starbucks. What was it about the coffee shop that led to more progress toward a goal than perhaps working at home did? - Maybe it was the ground coffee smell, the white noise of background chatter, no television in walking distance to act as a distraction, the unlikelihood of running into someone Nick knows, working from a single screen, etc. - Maybe Nick could re-create part of that environment from Starbucks at home or when working from somewhere else (the sounds, the smells, etc.). + Jason mentions the day before a vacation and our ability to complete an incredible amount of work during the week before the vacation. When we have that time bound accomplishment with deadline like an upcoming vacation, we will prioritize a lot differently. Jason encourages us to notice how this happens. - As the deadline approaches, we might have to deflect some things. - John emphasizes the need to use data to make adjustments, giving the example of how a runner can do this. If we know our progress and our deadline it helps us make decisions about where to spend our time (i.e. choosing not to engage in small talk, etc.). - Nick says capturing data doesn’t mean you built a spreadsheet. Everyone will do some sort of data analysis when they need to prioritize tasks. + Nick thinks there is a misconception that in order to capture and take action on data it has to be hard. In fact, that might just be his own secret rule! Nick also admits long term tracking of data is what he struggles with the most. - Jason mentions smart watches and Garmin devices that will track data and upload it for you automatically. He suggests Nick find a way to track the data that is both easy and as automated as possible. - John would state Nick’s secret rule as “in order for data collection to be valid it has to be difficult.” Nick agrees that this sounds accurate. Maybe he just needs to collect data from a Starbucks! - Jason mentions it is easy for him to see how many meals he got from Green Chef this week or this month. It’s already tracked for him just like he could easily track how much he spent going to a restaurant or a McDonald’s by looking at checking account transactions. - We should consider the easiest way to collect the data we want. Jason gives the example of collecting data on step counts in an automated way. You can collect that data from merely having your cell phone in your pocket. It would not even require buying a smart watch to track this. While the data collected this way may not be perfectly accurate, it is better than collecting no data. It will be pretty close and can still be used to show progress. - John says we should get rid of the attitude that collecting data isn’t worth doing if it cannot be perfect. - Does Nick have double secret rules that data collection has to be thorough (or difficult) and that it has to be perfect? - “Don’t wait until the squirrels come home. Data kills denial, which prevents disaster. Perfection will tell you that your data must be complicated. If you dare to gather some, it will have you tracking every ounce of water, second of time, vowels used in a book you’re writing. Don’t.” – Jon Acuff - Acuff emphasizes keeping the data simple so it does not become a distraction that prevents you from accomplishing your goal. Nick agrees he has some work to do there.
10:26 – Chapter 8: The Day before Done* John says Nick brought this up earlier. As you get near the finish, things will crop up that once again distract you from your goal. * Why do starters have a hard time with the day before done? The day before done is terrifying." – Jon Acuff * Perfectionism can cause fear of accomplishing the goal as a final effort to keep us from achieving what we want. + Jason says we can let our goals define us. When you are working toward a goal or a project or a task, it might be something you talk about and socialize to others. Once that goal / project / task is complete, what will you talk about? Upon finishing, you are no longer defined by the work you were doing or the job you had, for example. + Take the example of reaching retirement. People struggle with how to define themselves once they retire. If you were a successful business person before retirement, are you someone who drinks coffee and plays golf now? * The book speaks to 3 explicit fears. Those who quit a goal shortly after starting (i.e. in the first few days) may not realize they will face these fears when very close to finishing a goal. + The fear of what happens next + The fear that it won’t be perfect when you accomplish the goal + The fear of what now * John talked about Nick getting ideas for new episodes as the editing process for a an episode is nearly finished. + Nick mentioned the fears of what next / what now align very well to our dreaming in bands episode (Episode 19). It can happen when you work hard to achieve your dream job but do not know what to target once you achieve it. + “You have to understand what’s the next step, and just because you accomplished this one thing doesn’t mean that there isn’t a next step.” – John White + This applies to the person who retires as well. It doesn’t mean the person who reaches retirement cannot have a new goal because they made it there. It just might be a different kind of goal. - Jason has known people who have retired and spent their extra time volunteering at specific organizations, for example. Now those people own their time rather than an employer owning it, and they can engage in additional meaningful pursuits. + Jason emphasizes the importance of writing down the ideas we get at the last minute before finishing a goal and putting them off to the side temporarily. It’s a way to keep ourselves from getting distracted but keep the excitement. We now have a list of ideas to refer back to later. - The human mind isn’t great at retaining things long term. Writing things down in in a place you can reference later is extremely important. Jason gives the example of forgetting a restaurant he would like to visit by the next time he and his wife are ready to go out to eat. - Jason emphasizes writing things down on a physical medium to help us remember things. He likes to use a journal, for example. There we go back to tracking data again! - John suggests we can store the data close to where we need to make a decision. Years ago this would be like keeping copies of take out menus from different restaurants in a drawer. John likes to use Google Maps to track restaurants he would like to visit, and in the notes section he will write down who told him about it and when. This system makes it easy to look up a place when someone wants to meet him for lunch, for example. - Regardless of what system we use, we record the information in a place and in a way in which we can use the data. * How do you get past the 3 final fears of perfectionism? + A crisis cannot be scheduled (health crisis or other). One of these will happen to you. + An accountability point, however, is much easier to control. That point of accountability should be someone else with whom you share your goal. - Acuff also recommends avoiding having someone we refer to as a guru (sort of like Morgan Freeman’s role in the movie Shawshank Redemption). - There’s an example in the book about an artist who was shredding their art after creating it until a friend told them to stop. * Having a friend who can help us objectively break the habit of abandoning our goals is extremely helpful. * Jason stresses the importance of friends being able to provide an outside perspective and give honest feedback on what we might need to change. + What could you be getting out of not finishing? - Jason found this one interesting, pointing out the opportunity cost. This goes back to self-reflection and the emphasis on why we are working on the goal. We can think about why we might be self-sabotaging and preventing those last few steps across the finish line. - There were 3 possibilities posited in the book of what we could be getting out of not finishing (not meant to be exhaustive): * Control of the outcome – certainty of failure compared to uncertainty of what happens when you finish * Praise for being a martyr * Lowered expectations from other people – what if you succeed and now people expect you to do stuff? - John references this quote from the book as a rather interesting attitude -“I’d rather occasionally surprise people with what I can do rather than build up a reputation of success.” - Maybe you’re getting something else out of not finishing not in the above list like the ability to binge watch TV shows or a lack of accountability, for example.
22:22 – Final Thoughts* Each chapter has clear thesis statements, a number of anecdotes throughout, and a list of actions at the end. + “Each chapter has a nice little bow wrapped around it for you to go forth and do better.” – John White * Overall, John had a positive reaction to reading the book and believed the points being made within it. + The book did not claim to be exhaustive or to have every part backed by a major study. + John will be incorporating a number of the practices and frameworks into his own life. * Jason says he’s addicted to buying books at Half Price Books and bought the book for 3 dollars. + “It’s definitely one of the most impactful books that I’ve ever read because…I was awful at starting things but never finishing them. And when I read this book…it really did speak to me, so much that I started talking to everyone else about it. I started buying books for people…because I recognized that it could help them.” – Jason Gass + Jason likes the simple format of the book. He now implements a lot of the recommendations in the book. In the past year he has accomplished a noticeable amount of goals, even mentioning some goals people he knew thought he might never finish. + The book helped Jason realize that some of the faults he thought were his alone are in fact common to many of us. The advice in the book really does help you accomplish more of your goals. * Nick really enjoyed reading the book and loves Acuff’s writing style. It was an easy listen on Audible. + He can identify with so many of the things in the book and will be much more mindful of them now. Identifying these things as issues allows us to take action on them. + Nick says there were a number of tasks he completed after reading the book, many of which were on his whiteboard as to-do items for what he feels was way too long before achieving completion. * John adds that the concepts are presented in a way which is very easy to digest. But each topic has depth and allows one to get more granular if you would like. + Choosing what to bomb for example is all about prioritizing and gives you some ideas on how to do that. But you can spend the rest of your life trying to improve prioritization methodologies. We should not pretend that the book is exhaustive, and the other does not pretend it is either. + John sees the book as a great kickstart for accomplishing goals and tasks. It opens up a whole new genre for us to explore. * “You’re never going to finish getting better at finishing.” – Nick Korte * Should we do more book review shows? Please let us know what you think! * Jason has given conference talks on his experiences being part of Toastmasters. He is now considering doing some presentations based on the principles discussed in Finish.
Mentioned in the Outro* Could fear of success prevent us from applying for a job that sounds exciting or keep us from performing well in interviews because we’re afraid of getting the job? + If you’re worried about what to do if you get a new job offer because you know it will create a difficult decision, that fear of succeeding could cause performance anxiety almost like fear of bombing an interview. + In the interview process at least we can focus on the current step in process and rely on our preparation to keep us present / from worrying as much about the outcome. * For other book discussions we’ve done, check out: + Episode 87 – The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni + Episode 90 – The Inner Game of Stress by Tim Gallwey, Ed Hanzelik, and John Horton + Book discussion series on Deep Work by Cal Newport: - Episode 141 – Deep Work, Part 1 – The Why - Episode 142 – Deep Work, Part 2 – The Structure - Episode 143 – Deep Work, Part 3 – The Execution - Episode 144 – Deep Work, Part 4 – Embracing Boredom - Episode 145 – Deep Work, Part 5 – Quit Social Media - Episode 146 – Deep Work, Part 6 – Drain the Shallows - Episode 147 – Deep Work, Part 7 – Become Hard to Reach
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman * Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Could you be making false assumptions which only serve to keep you from achieving your goals? Secret rules take self-reflection to discover, destroy, and replace with rules based on the truth. In addition to getting rid of secret rules, we can collect data to measure progress toward a goal. Even though our efforts working toward a goal won’t be perfect, data allows us to better understand that we are moving in the right direction.
In episode 274, we’re joined by guest host Jason Gass to discuss the following chapters from Finish by Jon Acuff:
- Chapter 6: Get Rid of Your Secret Rules
- Chapter 7: Use Data to Celebrate Your Imperfect Progress
Original Recording Date: 04-07-2024
Topics – A Book Discussion Series, Chapter 6: Get Rid of Your Secret Rules, Chapter 7: Use Data to Celebrate Your Imperfect ProgressA Book Discussion Series* This is part 3 of a book discussion series centered on Finish: Give Yourself the Gift of Done by Jon Acuff. + If you missed part 1 of our discussion, check out Episode 272.In that first episode we discussed the following topics: - Reasons Jason Gass (our special guest host in this series) recommended the book - Chapter 1 – The Day after Perfect - Chapter 2 – Cut Your Goal in Half + If you missed part 2 of our discussion, check out Episode 273. In that second episode in the series we discussed: - Chapter 3 – Choose What to Bomb - Chapter 4 – Make It Fun if You Want It Done - Chapter 5 – Leave Your Hiding Places and Ignore Noble Obstacles
2:56 – Chapter 6: Get Rid of Your Secret Rules* “Perfectionism is a desperate attempt to live up to impossible standards. We wouldn’t play if the game was impossible, so perfectionism promises us that we just need follow some secret rules. As long as we do that, perfect is possible. So over the years, as you chase goals, perfectionism quietly adds some secret rules to your life.” – Jon Acuff * One of the secret rules Acuff discusses is that a goal must be difficult in order for it to count (i.e. can’t be easy). + John mentions the goal to read books from an earlier chapter and the secret rules we impose on ourselves. When we think of reading books we might say that means the books must be paper books and a certain level of complexity. - This might make us think a book can’t be children’s books, an anthology of short stories, poems, an audiobook, a book of art, etc. + Nick mentions a secret rule related to technical conferences. People think they need to have a presentation written when they submit an abstract to speak. That’s not true at all. You just need a good abstract, and you can worry about writing the presentation if you are selected to speak. * Acuff tells us to deal with secret rules we have to: + Identify them + Destroy them + Replace them * According to the book, ask yourself these questions to identify secret rules: + Do I even like …? + What’s my real goal? + Does the method I’m using match who I am? + Is it time to quit? * Jason mentions people don’t often reassess goals to see if those goals are still things they want to accomplish. It may very well be time to quit. + If we’re studying a specific industry or for a technical certification in one area and things change (i.e. job change, etc.), the goal may no longer apply to our situation. + It’s ok to look at a goal and decide it needs to be replaced by something else. + The secret rule here is “winners never quit.” * John likes the question about the method being used matching who the person is. + He remembers hearing a stand up comedy routine from Nate Bargatze about the P90x in which Nate said he had ordered P90x after never having worked out in the past. + For the person who decides they want to run a marathon, do you even want to run? And furthermore, can you run? - Jason mentioned before he will run in short races for the experience but has no desire to run a marathon. * Maybe we should think back to why we’re doing what we are doing, if it’s actually enjoyable, and if there might be another way to accomplish the goal. * Playing a sport can provide some good exercise. Jason gives the example of his father-in-law playing golf and walking the course instead of renting a cart. It’s more fun than walking around a track, for example. - John says there seems to be a secret rule out there which states running marathons is a good goal. Consider whether marathon runners are healthy in the way you want to be healthy. * And why stop at just a marathon? What about ultramarathons? What determines the number of miles to run that gets you to “healthy?” * People have this idea that something difficult must be better. * Nick says deciding to quit is a hard one because of the potential shame, but we need to be careful. Quitting goal after goal may be a sign that you’re picking the wrong goal. + It’s not bad to quit, but pay attention to what you quit and why you quit to inform future goal setting. + John says it’s ok to refactor a goal. Maybe you want to be well rounded in your technical knowledge based on the technical position you hold today. - “So if you switch technical roles and it’s covering different technology, abandoning one set of certifications and replacing them with another set of certifications or even just general background knowledge isn’t quitting. It’s just reorienting around the new position and what it is that you’re doing.” – John White, on refactoring a goal - Changing positions a lot may be a different thing and a different goal. * Jason likes Acuff’s concept of borrowing someone else’s diploma. + At work Jason has his own technical specialties from studying, personal experiences, or previous jobs. + Take the example of Jason having a customer who wants to talk about networking. Though Jason has a strong networking background, he’s not a networking professional. - Should Jason set a goal to learn the company’s network product inside and out so he can go and speak to customers about it? Or, should he pull in a peer of his who loves networking to talk to the customer? The fastest path to achieving the goal of helping a customer would be for Jason to pull in his peer to help. - The section we’re discussing may mention borrowing someone else’s diploma, but it’s attacking the secret rule that we have to do it all on our own. John mentions it’s worth stating the secret rule here and how we can accomplish the true goal in Jason’s example (informing a customer). + “It’s the secret unstated addendum that is the problem. Sometimes these rules are secrets even to ourselves.” – John White - Jason feels it is about knowing your limitations and when to outsource. He gives the example of someone building a house who knows how to do the framing but decides to hire an electrician and a plumber instead of trying to develop the depth of expertise in those areas. * Once we have identified a secret rule we should state it explicitly and then the implications of the secret rule. Ask yourself “what does that mean?” + If the secret rule is I have to do everything myself, the implication is I need to go and learn everything needed / be an expert in all areas needed to inform a customer. + In the book Acuff gives the example that success is bad which must mean failure is good. * Jason reminds us that the last step after identifying and destroying a secret rule is to replace that rule. + If the secret rule is I must do everything on my own, it can be replaced with I need to know when to bring in outside expertise / when to ask for help. Or, more people in the boat is better and more helpful. + We want a new, flexible, reasonable rule based on the truth. + When Jason used to build things earlier in his life he wanted them to be perfect with no blemishes. He remembers his dad telling him no one would notice any imperfections in the finished work. This is another example of a secret rule. Jason thought he could never make a mistake in the process of building something.
14:27 – Chapter 7: Use Data to Celebrate Your Imperfect Progress* In this chapter Acuff brings up the idea of trying to achieve a goal you were not successful in achieving previously. Why were you not successful? + Jason reminds us that our memories are not as reliable as we think they are. This is easy to confirm by getting conflicting eyewitness accounts of an accident, for example. + Having the data keeps us directionally accurate. Jason gives the example of having data that shows 3 gym visits per week on average for a time and then only being able to make 2 gym visits one week. Maybe you did miss a day, but you might be doing way better than the previous 6 months. Your average is still quite good, and you may not remember your progress accurate in the absence of data. - Maybe you’re tracking waist size, shirt size, weight, bags of potato chips eaten in a month, etc. There could be any number of data points to collect. * "The funny thing about failure. It’s loud. Progress, on the other hand, is quiet. It whispers. Perfectionism screams failure and hides progress. That’s the reason a little data can make a big difference. It helps you see through perfectionism’s claims that you’re not getting anywhere and helps you celebrate your achievements. " – John White, on the thesis of this chapter, using some words from Jon Acuff * Jason says there’s not any guidance or warning in the book about how often we should check our data. Data can both encourage us and discourage us. We should collect the data, but consider how often you look at it. + Looking too often at data on your weight (like daily for example) may not show progress because our daily weight can fluctuate. Maybe checking every Friday would be better to show progress. + Were you looking at your weight daily before you started working out? Would it be better to think more carefully about what data you’re tracking and consider things like how many times you worked out in a week instead of weight lost? - “Maybe I didn’t lose any weight, but I lifted more weights. I walked farther. I went to the gym 3 times, which is more than I did the week before…. Having those…data points I think has a better rounded picture of what your progress is.” – Jason Gass, on taking multiple data points when measuring progress + There are many examples of possible points of data collection discussed in the book like: - How many items were donated, or how many trash bags were filled with things to donate? - A room can still subjectively look messy, but an objective measure is how many bags of stuff removed. Capturing the data moves us from subjective to objective. + Acuff would encourage us to start by choosing 1 to 3 data points to collect and no more. The intent is to start small and keep doing it. We might have to think carefully about what to track. + For Nick, tracking the data points is where the wheels fall off. Outside of financial things, he just doesn’t do this well. - Jason says find an easy way to track the data. He has a gym membership and has to scan an app on every visit. It’s easy for him to pull a report of gym visits over time. - Find something that does automated data tracking to decrease the required effort. Audible can easily show you how many books you have read over the course of a month, a year, etc. Amazon.com can also show you how much you have spent to date. - How much money did you save this year? We can setup rules at our back to automatically save specific amounts of money each month. Jason has a goal to max out his IRA and has a rule created to contribute to it automatically. At the end of the year or at any point he can pull a report to see how close he came to hitting the goal. - John mentions data collection might not be fun for some of us, but there are ways we can make it that way or gamify it. Fitness watches have done this by allowing us to track data against that of friends and others we know. The data collected from a fitness watch can be a point of accountability too (i.e. you remind yourself to wear the watch to track all activity so you “get credit for it”). - Jason mentions he has seen people print off a coloring book page that looks like a house as a visual reminder of progress toward paying off home debt. The idea is color in a small space each time you make a house payment. This creates excitement as people work toward their goal. * Other suggested data points in the book were things like meals made in a week, number of dates with a spouse, and many more. Jason points out the element of creativity present in how we collect data. We create the rules as to what will be collected. + This section we’re referencing is called “23 ways to measure your goal,” and it is not meant to be an exhaustive list but rather a reference to generate some ideas. Different types of goals may require different data. + Acuff encourages picking 3 data points at most when we start. There is nothing wrong with choosing only 1 or 2 data points. * Nick liked the encouragement to deconstruct goals we accomplished and pull some data points. This idea of reflection goes back to being intentional (something we don’t do enough). + How long did it take? + How much did it cost? + Was there a deadline? + What worked last time? + “If you don’t have the data from the previous time that you accomplished a goal, then you probably don’t remember how hard or easy it was. So maybe it’s not a good way to calibrate what it is that you’re doing this time and whether you’re making similar progress…. If you didn’t collect the data, then you don’t have anything to compare to.” – John White + Jason says the book also encourages us to reflect upon the goals we didn’t (something that many pf us probably do not do). Do we have data on progressing toward any unfinished goals? What went wrong? What would we change if we tried that goal again? - Jason recalls hearing personal development teacher Jim Rohn suggest attending a conference put on by someone who failed. The sole purpose would be for people to learn from that person’s mistakes. We can apply a similar idea to ourselves by analyzing where we failed and identifying what we need to change to ensure success the next time. - John references win notes about sales companies successfully make, but you don’t see a lot of loss notes about why a sales motion failed. These are probably even more important than the win notes. - “I feel like there’s so much information that we can learn from our failures so that we’re successful in the future.” – Jason Gass
Mentioned in the Outro* Just as noble obstacles are manufactured dependencies, secret rules are similar in that they are false assumptions we’ve been living by (even if we never knew that). + Maybe you thought only tier 1 applications at your company need a disaster recovery plan. But think about what happens if a tier 2 application goes offline. It likely also needs a disaster recovery plan. + A rule to replace the secret rule could be that every application needs a disaster recovery plan, regardless of categorized tier, and those plans can be different based on the tier and recovery time objectives. * We have the creative control of what to measure to track progress toward a goal and how to measure it, but we should keep it simple and keep motivations in mind so we continue to collect data. + If your goal is to build a better resume or LinkedIn profile, it will require improving documentation of accomplishments. Maybe you document 1 thing you learned at the end of each week that helped you deepen existing expertise in one area and 1 thing you learned in an area where you have very little expertise. + Another idea is document tasks completed that are related to milestones of big projects. + Notice there’s no guidance in the above examples on how detailed to get in the documentation, but having a documented list that is updated weekly (and backed up off the corporate network) will help us update a resume or LinkedIn profile much easier than having no data and trying to do it from memory. + We should also consider motivation in doing something like this. Does collecting the data and being able to update your LinkedIn or resume act as a reward, or are you motivated by the fear of not having the data? * For other book discussions we’ve done, check out: + Episode 87 – The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni + Episode 90 – The Inner Game of Stress by Tim Gallwey, Ed Hanzelik, and John Horton + Book discussion series on Deep Work by Cal Newport: - Episode 141 – Deep Work, Part 1 – The Why - Episode 142 – Deep Work, Part 2 – The Structure - Episode 143 – Deep Work, Part 3 – The Execution - Episode 144 – Deep Work, Part 4 – Embracing Boredom - Episode 145 – Deep Work, Part 5 – Quit Social Media - Episode 146 – Deep Work, Part 6 – Drain the Shallows - Episode 147 – Deep Work, Part 7 – Become Hard to Reach
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
In order to finish the goals we begin, author Jon Acuff says we need more time to work toward each goal, the motivation to keep going, and to maintain focus amidst any possible distractions perfectionism may throw at us along the way.
Based on that, what will you intentionally decide to bomb so you have more time? How will you stay motivated to accomplish your goal? And how can you avoid distractions?
In episode 273, we’re joined by guest host Jason Gass to help answer these questions based on our discussion of the following chapters from Finish by Jon Acuff:
- Chapter 3: Choose What to Bomb
- Chapter 4: Make It Fun if You Want It Done
- Chapter 5: Leave Your Hiding Places and Ignore Noble Obstacles.
Original Recording Date: 04-07-2024
Topics – A Book Discussion Series, Chapter 3: Choose What to Bomb, Chapter 4: Make It Fun, Chapter 5: Leave Your Hiding Places and Ignore Noble ObstaclesA Book Discussion Series* This is part 2 of a book discussion series centered on Finish: Give Yourself the Gift of Done by Jon Acuff. If you missed part 1 of our discussion, check out Episode 272. * In that first episode we discussed the following topics: + Reasons Jason Gass (our special guest host in this series) recommended the book + Chapter 1 – The Day after Perfect + Chapter 2 – Cut Your Goal in Half
2:59 – Chapter 3: Choose What to Bomb* The only way to accomplish a new goal is to feed it your most valuable resource – time. We have to take time from one thing and give it to something else. Being good at one thing means being bad at something else. We choose what to be bad at to prioritize something we’d like to be better at. + Jason liked the examples Acuff uses from his own life and the lives of real people. + Acuff gives the example of using a specific block of time on Mondays to finish a book he was writing. His wife encouraged him to use that time. + For those listening who may be working toward a specific goal (taking a class or a degree, pursuing a certification, etc.), you might need to work on it while your kids are awake, and it may take time away from them. But it is intended to be temporary. - Jason used to enjoy mowing his yard, for example, but got tired of the time it was taking, especially in the heat of a Texas summer. He is able to pay for a mowing service and can now apply the 2 hours per week toward other goals. + Nick says the decision to be bad at something is really putting your time in the right place to accomplish your goal. But it also prevents you from having a mental conflict later or needing to make further decisions. It saves mental cycles. - Nick, for example, is choosing to bomb communicating with people a lot on weekends because he is podcasting. That’s just what he does. - Jason’s wife hated grocery shopping. Now they’ve invested in a meal service and only shop for the basics. This relieved a task they just didn’t want to do. - “There’s always something I feel in our lives that we just don’t want to do, and if we can trade or outsource so we can work on something that’s a little more energetic or more fulfilling, it’s a good handoff.” – Jason Gass - John stresses that these things are planned and intentional. If grocery shopping takes 90 minutes out of your week that you really don’t like spending, and a delivery service can eliminate some of that or most of it for a fixed rate, it could be a win. If grocery shopping did not get accomplished and we were forced to get unhealthy takeout that is unhealthy and goes beyond our budget, it may be the wrong tradeoff. - Every once in a while John will invest in fluff and fold laundry service. The tradeoff isn’t for the time spent doing the laundry but rather to avoid the time spent folding the laundry to put it away. - Jason would dry clean his shirts to avoid having to iron since he and his wife do not iron. He at some point moved to wrinkle free shirts. + Nick says the idea of choosing what to bomb is about where you will and won’t focus your time and energy. When trying to build expertise in a new area, it will require more time because you do not have the expertise (i.e. you accept you will be bad at doing the thing). So you may need to bomb something (or get rid of it) to give you the extra time. - John says things like television are mentioned in the book as well as other slack time in our lives. Cal Newport’s work has spoken about excessive social media usage and how it can give the dopamine hit or seem like you’re accomplishing something. - Jason mentioned he used to watch Breaking Bad but thought about how much time it takes to “binge watch” TV series for multiple seasons at 45 minutes per episode and has decided it’s no longer that important to him. He thinks about what else could be accomplished during that time and only watches a very small amount of tv now. - Jason has friends who are deep in their knowledge of music, live TV shows, or sports and spend a great deal of time in those areas. Jason has decided it’s not important to have that kind of knowledge depth. - Nick’s wife and daughter know he’s choosing to bomb watching television. They know just as he does that he is mesmerized by television. - Early in his career, Jason was not much into gaming but owned a PlayStation. He hasn’t finished many games. After realizing how much time he was spending playing, at one point he decided to spend the time working toward a certification to progress his career. Jason never finished the game he started after that. - “You know what…maybe this isn’t the proper use of my free time. And not to say that we can’t take for entertainment…but it gets into the point of how much time to do put toward that extracurricular activity versus one of the other goals that we really want to accomplish.” – Jason Gass - “Is it one of your stated goals? Because if it’s not one of your stated goals, then you are accomplishing something that is not a stated goal at the cost of something that is a stated goal….” – John White - If binge watching a show or finishing a video game is that important, then we should be conscious and intentional about spending the time there and let go of the shame.
13:39 – Chapter 4: Make It Fun* Jason started taking some entertainment activities like a tv show or movie and making it a reward. He gives the example of studying for a certification during the day and then rewarding himself with watching 1 or 2 episodes of an interesting television show. + “That was my reward of getting through those chapters or…doing that lab time. That became the reward or the fun side of the goal.” – Jason Gass, on rewarding himself with watching television for working on a goal + John feels like using rewards as suggested in this chapter definitely hit him in a positive way. Some people are reward motivated, but others are motivated by fear (i.e. fear of something happening if the goal is not accomplished). It is valid to harness what is going to help you. + “If you say you’re going to do this thing that’s a reward and then you have to abandon the reward, then sometimes you’re going to abandon the task. And that’s not a good thing either.” – John White + These categories of reward and fear motivation exist in financial planning as an example. We hear about the type of customer who wants to save money because they are looking forward to things like travel or spending time with family. We hear about others who are afraid of not having enough saved for retirement to cover medical costs, etc. - Both are valid drivers of you accomplishing your goal. Are you fearful of not having enough money, or are you more interested in having enough money to do fun things in retirement? * Nick thinks most people are not as intentional as they could be when making decisions. Many don’t think about whether fear or reward motivates them. We busy ourselves with many things and just are not that intentional. + John tells us his comments on intention come from cognitive behavioral therapy. + For example, if you’re going to watch television instead of exercising, make that decision up front. You could even say out loud that you’ve decided to watch television instead of exercising and see how you feel about it before sitting down to watch. If you feel ok about it, then let go of any shame as a result. + John agrees people are not intentional about setting up rewards or finding out if they are reward or fear motivated. For any given individual, they may have a mix of both fear and reward motivation. - An example of fear motivation is working on certain tasks because you do not want to be fired. - An example of reward motivation is performing tasks you don’t like first so you can then work on the things you do enjoy. - Nick shares a personal example of combining fear and reward motivation on accident. For a series of task deadlines, Nick had completed the tasks on the day they were due but worked into the evening to do it. When another deadline was given he felt there was no reason he could not finish by close of business on the due date. On the day before the deadline, Nick was sitting in a Starbucks and made the decision to stay 2 hours longer instead of going home to avoid any distractions when he arrived at home. That, and he loves sitting in Starbucks and drinking coffee. He hit the deadline by close of business the next day, and it made him feel great. Nick mentions this was not anything intentional until the very last minute realization. He could have been thinking about it days before when he knew he would be close to a Starbucks in the late afternoon on the day before the deadline. * Jason says this chapter looks at goals through the lens of fun in general. + Exercise is a great example. Many people think they need to go running if they want to exercise or lose weight. But if running isn’t fun, the person would likely stop running. What if we did something fun that can still help us accomplish our goals? + Perfectionism tells us a goal cannot be fun. That’s wrong. If playing pickleball is fun to you, for example, that’s a form of exercise that you could do instead of running. + Jason’s wife is a big runner and has run marathons. Jason has realized he’s not a marathon runner, but he will run a 10K. He and his wife have run 10K races at Disney World and trained together for it. But Jason’s wife wants to run half and full marathons too. Jason understands his goals don’t have to be the same as hers. + When we create goals, there needs to be a fun element to it. * Jason mentions most goal books suggest creating SMART goals. + This stands for specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, and time bound. + Jon Acuff jokes that we could use those same words to describe broccoli or cauliflower. + Tony Robbins adds to these and would advise we need to be reminded of the reason for the goal (or the why behind it) and the emotion tied to it. + Eating healthy isn’t fun. Tony Robbins would encourage us to ask “why are you doing it?” - Maybe someone wants to be healthy so they can travel, to remain healthy and active so they can spend time with future grandchildren, etc. - Jason was never someone who enjoyed going to the gym. But last year Jason began to have back problems from working a desk job and could not even put on his socks without pain. He called a friend who is a personal trainer to develop a workout program for him. Jason says it was painful at first, but the training has helped him stay healthy so he can achieve more of the things he wants in life like the ability to travel (i.e. the why behind the goal). + John mentions this is another example of mixing fear and reward. Jason wants to avoid the pain but also wants to be around to travel and accomplish various other things. + John also suggests that perhaps to make goals achievable (the A in SMART) we need to think about making our goals fun. Part of a training plan for exercise might be running, it might be playing pickleball, lifting weights, or perhaps some of all of these. - John references Acuff’s story of reading 100 books in a year during which he redefined what counted as a book. Audiobooks counted, graphic novels counted, etc. It doesn’t have to be that only 500 page books read by candlelight count. - Jason says goal setting is like a game. If we define the rules that go along with the goal, we have a better chance of completing the goal. And it makes things more fun as well.
25:16 – Chapter 5: Leave Your Hiding Places and Ignore Noble Obstacles* Jason gives the example of it being April and people being focused on their taxes. + If your desk is messy, you might decide to clean it before you work on your taxes. But it’s really just a hiding place in disguise. + We might be fearful of working on a goal or a task toward a goal, and we can end up hiding in another activity that feels like an accomplishment. It only delays your goal. * According to the book, a hiding place is “the safe place you go to hide from your fear of messing up. It’s a task that lets you get your perfectionism fix by making you feel successful even as you avoid your goal.” + Cleaning up your office might be important, but what you’re really doing might be avoiding your taxes. + Nick can definitely identify with the distraction of hiding places. They often come to him in the form of new ideas that pop into his head once he is close to finishing production and publishing of an episode. He should consider writing these down and doing them later instead of acting upon the ideas exactly when they come. + Jason mentions once we get close to finishing our goal, it’s amazing how many ideas our brains come up with, and every one of them could distract us. When we get ideas we feel like we need to start them right then, and it can be very easy to walk away from your original goal as a result. - Goals will get us into creative mode and end up leading to ideas for other goals. - “But we have to be in the mindset of…I don’t want to forget this. This is something that I want to do. I need to write it down so that I can plan for maybe after I finish this goal…and not just forget.” – Jason Gass, on what to do to avoid being distracted by new ideas * A noble obstacle is the “very good reason” you cannot pursue your goal. It’s an attempt to make your goal harder than it has to be so you don’t have to finish but can still look respectable. + This might be phrases like I can’t do X until Y. + “I can’t eat healthy until I finish eating all the unhealthy stuff in my pantry.” + “I can’t work out because I’ll get too big. Then I’ll need a new wardrobe, and I can’t afford a new wardrobe.” + Jason has seen this happen a lot when working on home projects sort of like a domino effect. He feels like people get caught up because these statements happen in our heads. It could be worse than it really is. - Writing the steps we need to take down on paper allows organization and for us to see any true dependencies. It might also lead to smaller microgoals before accomplishing the overall goal. - This can also solve the problem of having a bunch of steps to complete a project and not knowing where to start. + John had an initial negative reaction to this section but after thinking about it again agrees with it overall. - He intentionally makes a reverse timeline for projects to map out dependencies and put the tasks in the right order to understand where to start. This approach doesn’t create a barrier. It’s a definition of what is needed to accomplish the goal. - “And I think that intentionality and the planning…and then actually starting is the difference between a barrier and a plan.” – John White, on noble obstacles vs. planning - Perhaps you have dirty dishes in your sink and say you cannot cook because you have a sink of dishes. That could cause you to stop completely. But if you plan to clean the dishes early enough to cook the meal on time, that is different. - Jason felt the chapter may have been lacking by not emphasizing planning / getting things out of your head. * Jason thinks this chapter in a way hinted at impostor syndrome though it was never mentioned in the book. + Jason gives the example building concrete countertops. He has in the past stopped himself from continuing and questioning whether he was talented enough to do it. It creates a noble obstacle of “until I’m a master, I can’t do this….I can’t even start because I don’t know all of the skill sets.” - It’s hinted on that this is where impostor syndrome starts. * John thinks his negative reaction warranted only a light critique. + He would have liked to hear some emphasis on the difference between throwing up a reason not to start and creating a project plan to start execution. * Nick feels he will be more mindful of calling people out for throwing up noble obstacles, especially himself. * The book tells us perfectionism says it can’t be easy to finish a goal. + “Instead of making things complicated and difficult, instead of giving in to noble obstacles, finishers stack the odds before they even start. Perfectionism always makes things harder and more complicated. Finishers make things easier and simpler. The next time you work on a goal…ask the following questions during the middle of the project: Could things be easier? Could things be simpler?” – Jon Acuff + For some reason we feel like if something is easy it is like cheating. Jason isn’t sure where this stems from. Getting to our goal is the most important thing. + John mentions we often calibrate accomplishment with level of difficulty. We know this is the case with judging Olympic gymnastics vaulting and in diving. Doing a simple dive perfectly, for example, is not necessarily as good as achieving less than 100% at a higher complexity dive. - “So level of difficulty somehow creeps in to our judgment of accomplishment as opposed to what’s important about actually accomplishing the final goal as simply and easily as possible.” – John White
Mentioned in the Outro* The phrase “choosing what to bomb” is a little abrasive. It’s like asking yourself “what will I fail at? What will I not be perfect at?” It’s an admission you cannot do it all, and you have to make a choice on where to focus your time by giving something up. * Could understanding our motivations (reward or fear) help us procrastinate less? * Hiding places hit Nick pretty hard. E-mail is definitely a hiding place since so many of us leave it open all day at work, and Nick admits it is a hiding place for him.
+ Maybe this means we need to close e-mail more often to focus or set some guardrails around making access a bit more difficult.
- A noble obstacle feels like a manufactured dependency that can delay your goal. Making the project plan or a reverse timeline likely could show you if there really are dependencies in what you need to complete or if you are manufacturing a dependency.
- The book discussion format is a little different from our interview format. Send us one specific thing you liked or did not like about the book discussion format and why (e-mail and social links below).
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For other book discussions we’ve done, check out:
- Episode 87 – The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni
- Episode 90 – The Inner Game of Stress by Tim Gallwey, Ed Hanzelik, and John Horton
- Book discussion series on Deep Work by Cal Newport:
- Episode 141 – Deep Work, Part 1 – The Why
- Episode 142 – Deep Work, Part 2 – The Structure
- Episode 143 – Deep Work, Part 3 – The Execution
- Episode 144 – Deep Work, Part 4 – Embracing Boredom
- Episode 145 – Deep Work, Part 5 – Quit Social Media
- Episode 146 – Deep Work, Part 6 – Drain the Shallows
- Episode 147 – Deep Work, Part 7 – Become Hard to Reach
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman * Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
What if the reason you aren’t completing the goals you start working toward is really a symptom of being a perfectionist? Maybe you don’t think you have a problem with perfectionism. Think again, friend.
According Jon Acuff, author of Finish: Give Yourself the Gift of Done, perfectionism is the villain we each have to overcome on our quest to complete more of the goals we start. In episode 272, we’re joined by guest host Jason Gass for the first in a series of collaborative discussions centered on Jon Acuff’s book and the practical tips within. In this first discussion, we’ll talk through the thesis of Finish by Jon Acuff and reactions to its first two chapters – The Day after Perfect and Cut Your Goal in Half.
Original Recording Date: 04-07-2024
Topics – A Guest Host and Our Episode Format, Overall Thesis of Finish by Jon Acuff, Chapter 1: The Day after Perfect, Chapter 2: Cut Your Goal in Half2:14 – A Guest Host and Our Episode Format* Jason Gass joins us this week as a guest host. He is a Solution Architect at VMware by Broadcom and colleague of Nick’s who recommended Nick read Finish by Jon Acuff. + Nick admits he is a perfectionist and struggles with perfectionism. + Interestingly enough, it took Nick 6 months or more to actually buy the book and read it after Jason recommended it. He read it on Audible (his preferred consumption medium for books) and loved it. * Our episode format will be a boot review of Finish by Jon Acuff which has 3 specific framing questions throughout: + Do I believe this? + How did this affect me? + What am I going to do about it, or what have I done about it? * We will start with overall reactions to the book and then look at specific chapters.
4:01 – Overall Thesis of Finish by Jon Acuff* Jason says the main thesis of the book is centered on actually completing the goals we start. We get a number of ideas, set a goal, and tend to never finish / see them through to fruition. + John feels this could be on a macro scale or micro scale and span from changing your life drastically this year to what you might want to achieve over the course of a weekend. + Jason has micro level goals like taking his vitamins every day and still sometimes fails. - You’re not alone, Jason! + Making goals something we can achieve is extremely powerful, and part of getting there is conquering perfectionism. * Overall reactions: + John had a very positive reaction to the book and found it to be both consumable and believable. The advice within seemed to be something one could implement and achieve. Furthermore, John feels the book and its contents will help people accomplish more goals. + Jason reads this book every year now, finishing his second reading for the year a few weeks before we recorded this episode, and felt like the author was writing the book specifically for him. Jason recommended it to Nick and gave another friend a copy of the book as a gift. + Nick loves Acuff’s writing style, personal touch, and use of humor throughout. And Acuff narrates the book if you get on Audible! Nick really enjoys it when authors narrate their books on Audible. + Nick admits to consistently getting tons of ideas that he can never finish. Nick and John have never had a shortage of ideas for the podcast, and there have been so many times they have said something was a good idea only to leave it there and never take action to complete it. + Jason read the paper book but noticed some of Acuff’s other books on Audible had bonus content in their audio forms. Nick mentioned there is no bonus content on Audible specifically for Finish, but Audible did recommend Nick read some of Acuff’s other books (especially if Acuff narrates). + Nick feels like the theme of the book is frameworks we need and can use to shape the path to finishing, somewhat like molding the clay to shape the ideal environment to enable completing the tasks on the way to finishing. + Jason says the book is easy reading. He remembers reading it on a plane and being excited to read the next chapter. When Jason tells people about the book, the first thing he is usually asked is whether he finished it. + John listened to the book on Audible 5-6 times at 1.6x speed to do highlighting and note taking of relevant points. It was easy reading and easy listening. Though John would agree Acuff does well narrating the book, he does not think every author has the same skills as a narrator. Acuff’s performance did make John want to go explore other titles Acuff has written. + Structurally, John felt each chapter had a main point which was clearly stated. Sometimes the reveal of the main point was delayed longer than he would prefer. Each chapter had a series of points backed up by anecdotes and sometimes referencing data-backed studies. + Jason liked the way Acuff spoke about perfectionism as a villain in the first chapter and then each chapter shares how we can fight that villain. Jason thinks some points were repeated at times to make sure listeners really understand by the end of the book. - John agrees he liked the externalizing of the character of perfectionism as a 3rd party who wants to keep us from our goals. This framing is a lot like the way our self-talk works. + Jason never thought about perfectionism being the reason he doesn’t complete goals, especially since he feels a bit disorganized at times. After some reflection, Jason does like to “color inside the lines” and struggles when he feels he has gone outside them (a little obsessive compulsive at times too). - John thinks perfectionism with obsessive compulsion feels more like two different things. Obsessive compulsive might just be what we go to automatically when we think of perfectionism. John thinks you can be a perfectionist without being neat and without being tidy, but one thing may lead to the other (i.e. not being able to find a place for your stuff might keep you from cleaning up entirely). + Nick likes Acuff’s own stories of personal struggle with perfectionism. It makes you as the reader a bit more self-aware of how these struggles might manifest themselves in your own life. Nick hadn’t thought about some of the things covered in the book until he heard it presented in the book, which made Nick realize he definitely has the same struggle.
13:38 – Chapter 1: The Day after Perfect* This chapter’s thesis: + People tend to stop pursuing their goals once they can no longer perfectly accomplish what they set out to do. + We focus on the streak or unbroken chain, and when it is broken, we do not often restart. John mentions it is partially do to focusing on the wrong thing. The unbroken chain was a means to an end of the final goal. - If you’re trying to read the newspaper every day, it’s not that doing that task daily is the goal, but it becomes our focus. Being more well informed is the real goal. The daily reading is a means to an end. + Jason says it was a strong point right up front. We hear stories of people running or going to the gym consistently, and then something happens. - “The day after perfection is really the day that you choose to continue on or just quit, and that bar is unattainable. Let’s face it…. Ok, I couldn’t make it to the gym yesterday. What do I do? What’s more important? Well, what about tomorrow? If I get up and go tomorrow, then I beat that mindset that my track record is now ruined.” – Jason Gass - Any number of life circumstances could keep us from doing something like going to the gym (sickness, busy schedule, etc.). - Nick says the unbeaten sports team who finally loses a game in a season doesn’t just quit the league. They have more games to play. * When we create a goal, who are we promising? Jason reminds us that a goal is a promise to ourselves according to Acuff. We tend to remember the goals we failed to complete and forget about the ones we did complete. + Nick thinks of it as a loop that is not closed. It reminds him of the burnout discussion with Tom Hollingsworth from Episode 127. In that episode we talk about having things on your task list for months and not being able to complete them. It can eat away at you to have so many unfinished tasks. + These things take up head space according to John. Abandoning a goal means abandoning a promise to yourself, and this can create self-talk on the abandonment rather than the things you’ve completed. + “Moving forward imperfectly” is what John reacted to most strongly and plans to internalize. - “It’s not the streak. It’s not the perfection. It’s the overall goal…the metagoal of doing this that is the main point, the why of why I even started this…not the streak itself…not the perfection.” – John White - If we take the example of having one great work conversation per day, John might ask why to remind himself of the reason he set out to do it. Missing one day does not invalidate the goal. * Jason liked the story Acuff shared in the book on how we relate not finishing our goals to a train wreck (which in reality is an awful event that is expensive and may cause loss of life). + It was interesting how we relate not accomplishing a goal to a huge disaster. Nothing that horrible will happen if we miss going to the gym one day, for example. Tomorrow is another chance. * Developing a tolerance for imperfection is what can turn people into consistent finishers according to Acuff. + John says achieving the goal has to be more important than the perfect streak. + Jason mentions even starting in grade school, we want to get an A. This continues throughout school. But each person who completes their education (even if they didn’t make all As or any As) has accomplished the same goal of getting the diploma / degree. We can have the occasional B or C. + Nick says perhaps it’s submission of control. When we are focused on being perfect we may be trying to control the outcome. Once we become imperfect, it makes us feel like we have lost control of the outcome. + “I think we have to abandon the idea that we can be perfect period.” – Jason Gass + Acuff tells us in the book our goals will be imperfect at some point (whether quickly after we start or otherwise). Jason says we need to understand something is going to happen, and it’s more about what we decide to do when something does happen. + “It’s…regaining the control over the outcome and your ability to achieve it as opposed to measuring it by every little intermediate step that you might think that you need to do along the way.” – John White + “The day after perfect is what separates the finishers from the starters. The day after is the make it or break it for every goal.” – Jon Acuff (quote Jason wrote down) + We should also reject the idea that we’ve failed when the day after perfect comes. John may print out the sequence of quotes and hang it on the wall to help remind himself. * Jason says he’s read a lot of books on goal setting, and this book is different. + Many people think we have problems starting goals, but Jason does not believe we have problems starting the goal but rather the continuation of the goal. + We have to figure out how to keep up the hype and momentum to continue.
22:41 – Chapter 2: Cut Your Goal in Half* Acuff starts this chapter by essentially telling us we’re stating our goals incorrectly and that we’re a little overambitious. Maybe we should seek to make our goals consistently achievable. + The Planning Fallacy can be self-defeating. If someone wanted to run a marathon and didn’t run, maybe that person should start with working to run 1 kilometer and then set a higher distance goal. + Nick says cutting your goal in half is like immediately being told and having to accept you were wrong. It can be hard to accept this. * An alternative point here is to double the time to achieve your goal if you cannot cut your goal in half. + If you need to pay off debts, for example, you wouldn’t pay off only half of them. But you can give yourself more time to do it. Despite the potential for paying more in interest, giving yourself more time to pay off debts increases your chances of actually doing it. * Mention of the Planning Fallacy resonated with Jason. Sometimes he will go into even a weekend with a long list of tasks to accomplish, and once Sunday comes around, he may be nowhere close to finishing everything on the list. + Not accomplishing everything we set out to do makes us feel bad. + Now Jason makes his list for the weekend knowing he will only achieve so much and being ok with some tasks waiting until the following weekend. + John says we shouldn’t have a negative opinion of ourselves for not realizing the complexity of a task and incorrectly estimating the time something really takes. + Jason feels we are awful at estimating and gives the example of some home projects taking far longer than he imagined. He also references a study Acuff shares in the book about a group of college students underestimating the time it would take to complete their thesis for both a best case and worst case time estimate. + This idea of cutting the goal in half or doubling the time really helps narrow down what is reasonable to accomplish. + And if we do have success when cutting a goal in half or doubling the time, we get a feeling of success. Those successes can stack on top of one another, and you become someone who more consistently completes goals instead of just starting and abandoning. + Jason mentions the snowball effect of accomplishing even the smallest goals. He follows Dave Ramsey and references The Debt Snowball. This video is a great explanation of the debt snowball concept, which is the idea of starting with the smallest debt first and focus all effort there until it is paid. Then focus on the next highest debt. + Nick remembers reading Why Smart Kids Worry and the importance of helping children remember their wins to decrease anxiety. * John plans to incorporate these ideas into all of his goals. * Jason mentions we have work goals that don’t allow for doubling the time or cutting them in half (like the salesperson who has a specific quota). + When Jason was in IT Operations, he remembers migration or upgrade projects whose deadlines couldn’t be moved, and in those cases, they had to get creative and add more resources / personnel to help meet the deadline. That’s another idea on how to get creative to hit a goal. + We have to prioritize and might even have to put another goal on hold if something has an immovable deadline.
Mentioned in the Outro* For other book discussions we’ve done, check out: + Episode 87 – The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni + Episode 90 – The Inner Game of Stress by Tim Gallwey, Ed Hanzelik, and John Horton + Book discussion series on Deep Work by Cal Newport: - Episode 141 – Deep Work, Part 1 – The Why - Episode 142 – Deep Work, Part 2 – The Structure - Episode 143 – Deep Work, Part 3 – The Execution - Episode 144 – Deep Work, Part 4 – Embracing Boredom - Episode 145 – Deep Work, Part 5 – Quit Social Media - Episode 146 – Deep Work, Part 6 – Drain the Shallows - Episode 147 – Deep Work, Part 7 – Become Hard to Reach
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Why would someone return to a company referred to as “the hurt locker” after a stressful first experience? After moving on from “the hurt locker” to decrease his stress level, Justin Kelly, our guest in episode 271, received a unique opportunity to work inside the special operations division of his former employer as an automation developer. In contrast to his first stint at this employer, the special operations role gave Justin the flexibility to begin what would later become Secure Bearing, LLC. And it began by first deciding to moonlight. We’ll share the story of his journey into entrepreneurship and the perspective he’s gained from working in technology operations and becoming a business owner.
Original Recording Date: 03-30-2024
Justin Kelly is the co-founder and CEO of Secure Bearing, LLC, an IT services provider. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Justin, check out Episode 270.
Topics – Fond Memories of a Stressful Time, A Very Different Transition, Learning Systems Design, Back to the Hurt Locker and the Opportunity to Moonlight, Perspectives and Zooming Out, Leaning into Business Ownership3:59 – Fond Memories of a Stressful Time* Nick loves that someone helped Justin realize the impact of being inside his work environment (“the hurt locker”) despite the enjoyment of learning. It seems to be a pattern when people are in this scenario that they cannot see it by themselves. + This reminds Nick of Erik Gross’ reference to being that friend for someone else from Episode 268. + Justin tells us he worked shifts that were 24 hours sometimes. He would work 10-12 hour days and might need to get on a troubleshooting call at 2 AM. It really was the hurt locker. - The role was very taxing, but Justin looks back on it fondly. * Was it the growth Justin looked back fondly on or the stress and pace? + It was definitely the growth (not stress and pace). + The camaraderie at the MSP is something Justin wanted to recreate ever since he left. The people he worked with were a very tight knit group of people in the hurt locker together. + There were no cubicles in the NOC (network operations center) where Justin and his colleagues worked. + It was a military like culture. The regional manager was ex-military, and many other employees were also. Justin was somewhat of an outsider having not served in the military.
6:20 – A Very Different Transition* What type of company did Justin want to work for after the MSP? Did the exposure to many environments make him prefer any one specifically? + Justin began to notice the companies he worked with at the MSP and the way they treated their managed service provider and its employees. A few companies stood out as attractive (one of which was a software company he would go on to work for years later) because of how well employees and leaders at the company treated their managed service provider staff. + From Justin’s observation at the MSP, healthcare and retail workers were operating with a higher level of stress, and he didn’t want to work in those verticals as a result. + One very exciting part of working for the MSP was managing the enterprise network environment for Cisco as a customer. - “It was just a massive inventory. And just about everyone that we interacted with within Cisco was very knowledgeable, very professional. It’s always nice talked to someone who, whether they are genuine or not, they are putting off the vibe that they are enjoying what they’re doing or where they are working.” – Justin Kelly * Someone from a staffing agency reached out to Justin about an opportunity while he was still working at the MSP. + It was advertised as a “gem of a role” which seemed to align with Justin’s skillset at a company that had minimal turnover. He decided to take the time to learn more about the role. + “It was a very different transition compared to my previous transition where the school I worked for and the co-workers I worked with were supportive and kind and happy. The manager I had at this job when I left was not any of those things. For me that just helped me close the door with almost zero regret…. I netted all the benefits that I feel like I could while I was there, and I didn’t burn any bridges when I left.” – Justin Kelly - Justin was able to maintain relationships with colleagues and friends from the MSP all the way to present day. - As it turns out, the role Justin took was indeed a gem of a role. + Justin recounts meeting that same manager from the MSP again later. Looking back, Justin realizes the way he was treated upon exiting the MSP had little to do with him personally. * While at the MSP, Justin feels he probably was not the preferred choice for a technical lead or technical executive type of role. + The technical lead (TL) would support a customer account. A technical executive (TE) would be the throat to choke when things do not go well for a customer account (i.e. ultimate responsibility for the account). + Justin had done neither of those roles previously but recounts the story of being moved to 2nd shift and working closely on a specific customer with his manager at the time. - “Everything went really well, and he just started handing me TL and TE roles. The main TE role that took most of my time was with the software company that I eventually went to work for. So it was someone who took a chance on me, who was not playing any of the politics within my regional office, and it just paid dividends.” – Justin Kelly, on crediting this manager for giving him chances to grow
12:09 – Learning Systems Design* The role Justin took after working for the MSP was with an agrilender (a very large federal bank). + At the MSP he was supporting existing customer environments. + The role Justin took involved systems design and working with vendors and partners to procure and implement technology solutions. + The culture was fantastic, a night and day difference from the hurt locker. Many of the people who worked for this company had been there for many years. Justin recounts a network administrator retiring after 30+ years of service at the company. * What were some of the elements of design that were gaps Justin needed to fill quickly? + It was a big adjustment. Justin shares a story of needing to replace some aging Cisco 6509 and 6513 network switches, working with a vendor on a pre-sales design, and then the post-sales work he and his co-workers had to do in order to work out small differences in the IOS and its newer, less mature variant NXOS (both Cisco networking infrastructure software packages for switches, routers, etc.). This was a learning experience for Justin and involved a number of mistakes. + Justin was also involved in a project to implement Cisco DMVPN (Dynamic Multipoint VPN) in place of some Cisco ASA devices which were doing traditional policy-based VPNs for site-to-site connectivity. + “It was a really great learning experience and a laid back environment but also my first exposure to…measure ten times, and sharpen the axe, and then swing it.” – Justin Kelly + What drove the transition from point-to-point VPN to multi-point VPN? Did it have to do with organizational structure and its communication in any way? - Justin’s opinion based on his experience is that policy-based VPNs are not extremely reliable, and these tunnels can go down frequently. There are also some constraints when it comes to routing. A DMVPN establishes tunnels from spoke-to-spoke to create a full mesh network dynamically so all tunnels are not backhauled through a central hub. - One of the project drivers was bandwidth consumption at the head end. Moving to DVMP so that sites could communicate with one another took traffic out of the company’s datacenter and eliminated the need to increase spending on additional bandwidth. - Justin says it has been a while since he worked with DMVPN now that SD-WAN is quite popular. - But overall, the transition between VPN technologies was quite positive.
17:15 – Back to the Hurt Locker and the Opportunity to Moonlight* What’s the origin story behind Secure Bearing? + Justin passed the CCIE exam in July 2015. + At the time, Justin and his family lived in Chicago and found out Justin’s father-in-law was ill. He took the first job he could to help the family relocate to Austin to allow the kids to be close to their grandfather. + Not long after moving back to Austin, a former colleague of Justin’s from the company we’re calling the hurt locker reached out to him. This person was in the SpecOps division (special operations within the organization). - Justin mentions he had nothing but respect for the person who contacted him. The role was nothing like what Justin had previously done for this company in the past, but his former colleague encouraged him to strongly consider coming back. - “I had the call with, honestly, my favorite boss of all time. He just laid out all of the responsibilities and expectations for the role which were nothing like I had done in the past.” – Justin Kelly, learning about a new opportunity at a former employer - The focus of this role was automation development for a large private wealth management company. His first project was to help automate a specific vendor technology for a very large services contract. Justin would also need to work with systems, databases, networking, and many other areas in a technology environment from the perspective of automation. - Justin tells us he was excited about the role and ended up asking for a lot of money. He was still offered the job. - “And that was it. I had made a transition from networking and security and doing my own thing with network and security automation to being an automation developer.” – Justin Kelly + Before the relocation happened someone had reached out to Justin about doing some subcontracting for companies in the San Francisco bay area. He had declined at the time but later decided the timing was right to revisit this. - In order to revisit the subcontracting jobs he needed form an LLC (Secure Bearing, LLC). Secure Bearing has no special meaning other than being a nautical term for a secure direction. - “I didn’t really give it much thought. My partner and I formed it for $50 each, and the purpose of founding the company was to keep my skills sharp….” – Justin Kelly, on his reasons for founding an LLC + In his new role at the hurt locker as part of special operations, Justin was working with some of the largest global brands. - Justin mentions this was an opportunity to work with some of the smartest people he’s ever known and brainstorm with them to solve very complex problems. Justin’s boss worked directly for the CEO of the MSP, and the special operations team was referred to as the “tip of the CEO’s spear.” - The role was very unique and crossed into fields like data science, software development, foundational networking components…all with an automation layer on top. - Getting experience with technology in large environments (i.e. using technology at scale) is incredible to have on a resume. Many in our industry lack this kind of experience (which large companies may want incoming employees to have). It sounds like Justin was part of a think tank group in a lot of ways. - Justin describes “data refinement” projects that took unstructured data from ticketing systems or other places to analyze projected savings with automation. He says this type of work was a lot of fun. - “One of the key components of an organization’s success with network automation is buy-in, not just from the people turning the screws who did or do the technical work or even their managers but executive management…who are allocating cost centers and budgets specifically for automation.” – Justin Kelly, reflecting on his work with large customers both then and now * Justin tells the story of a specific customer who transformed their operations by adding in automation over a period of a few years across database, networking, security, and systems. + The moonlighting work was networking / network security specific. One benefit of working in the special operations group was the level of autonomy people on that team had. - “I had plenty of time on evenings and weekends to moonlight, to work with customers and to make new connections and relationships with customers. So I guess I went back to doing too much. Or maybe I never stopped.” – Justin Kelly
26:30 – Perspectives and Zooming Out* John and Nick have backgrounds in virtualization, and their bias is likely to look from the virtual machine or the application perspective outward. Is Justin’s perspective into an organization mostly focused the network? + “I’ve always said that whatever your background is, that is your perspective into an organization.” – John White + Before Justin became a full-time business owner, his perspective was very much network centric. Over time, his approach when working with new or existing customers is from the perspective of business. - “What are the business objectives of the organization as it relates to technology? How does technology empower customer X to ship more widgets or whatever it is that is at the core of their business?” – Justin Kelly - Justin tells us it’s about how different teams and departments can leverage their own goals, objectives, and roadmaps to support those of the greater business. This is in addition to the fires a team may be putting out on a daily basis. Teams might need guidance to get to these realizations. + John mentioned the encouragement from his employers has been to focus on the business problem to solve and think about a customer’s business just like they do. This forces one to abandon a specific point of view (whether database, virtualization, etc.). - At the core, it’s about how organizations create value and focusing on that rather than the perspective from different parts and pieces. - Justin has been emphasizing to his team the importance of zooming out from one’s expertise and “to focus on what’s relevant as opposed to what’s true.” - “But turning the question to yourself, ‘is it relevant to this conversation that this business can’t function without a database?’ Nine times out of ten it’s not….” – Justin Kelly - John gives the example of a school system. The point of a school system is to educate students. Having buses to transport students to and from school was important, and the database for the learning management system was important. But it was really about maintaining a terrific learning environment for the students, supporting the teachers, and how the administration supported that learning environment. Not understanding this would have been missing the point. People making decisions would have been focused on improving learning operations. Being unable to speak to that perspective would make your talking points irrelevant. - Maybe we should all learn to think like business owners to be more relevant and take the proper perspective?
32:35 – Leaning into Business Ownership* In the spirit of trying to think like a business owner, we know Justin learned how to do this after forming his LLC. But how did Justin decide when it was the right time to go into pursuing Secure Bearing full-time? + In 2019, around 3 years after the company was founded, Justin went full-time into running Secure Bearing. + Justin says the turning point was when he needed to hire some contractors to help with the work of Secure Bearing and change from being only a 1-man shop. + At the time, Justin knew little about hiring, but he hired 2 contractors who were referred by a trusted source. + “When it became more than just me is when I started to think about it more like a business than just a solo effort that would fill my weekends or evenings.” – Justin Kelly, on leaning into Secure Bearing + How does what Justin is doing now compare to the enterprise automation work he did in a previous role? - Right now Justin wears many hats and is involved in many things across areas like datacenter, network security (not the same as cybersecurity), and enterprise automation. - “Enterprise automation…really is my passion because it allows me to marry my operational and technical experience and my, I wanted to say, love for software development, but that’s not the right term. I’m enamored by it.” – Justin Kelly - Justin is thankful he works with brilliant programmers, which goes back to surrounding yourself with people who are smarter. * What advice does Justin have for those looking to start a business? + “After a certain point, being a business owner is being ok with being upset, being embarrassed, being frustrated, failing, and juggling the requirements of a business functioning. You live and die by cash flow or working capital management in order to pay yourself and the families that rely on you.” – Justin Kelly + The CEO of NVIDIA made a statement about naivety being sort of like a superpower. Knowing what one knows after becoming a business owner might keep you from starting one in the first place. Justin equates it to standing at the base of a mountain and seeing a summit that once reached, reveals many other summits beyond it you never realized existed. + “It’s been a really fun, challenging, difficult journey. And I hope to keep doing it.” – Justin Kelly, on being a business owner + Justin would advise others not to get discouraged. - “Don’t get discouraged when you fail. Don’t get discouraged when your back is up against the wall. Persevere and keep going. And if it doesn’t work out, just like if you fail a certification or any other challenge that life throws you, do a brain dump. Debrief. Reassess, and go back at it…. And take aim at what makes sense now.” – Justin Kelly - One very important list for Justin is the list of things not to do, which we can learn from as we make mistakes. * To follow up on this discussion with Justin: + You can find Justin’s company at securebearing.com + You can send Justin a message on LinkedIn here.
Mentioned in the Outro* There was a good discussion of moonlighting in this episode. Justin was only able to do that extra work on weekends and in evenings because his schedule would allow it. His first tour of duty at the hurt locker would never have allowed this. + While moonlighting could be something that helps us stand out in the job market and enables learning new skills (through self-study or paid work), there may be times in our lives when our life circumstances just won’t allow adding anything extra to our schedule. + It doesn’t make you a bad person if you don’t have the time to add extra things to your schedule but can certainly be a differentiator when you want to learn something completely outside your focus area at work. * The discussion of the technology project to change VPN technologies may have at first seemed out of place, but it was an important example of perspective. + There were technical reasons for the change and enabled learning new technologies. But it was really about improving end user experience and reliability of a service being provided to the business. As a result of providing this new service, the bandwidth cost and overall operating expense of the business decreased. + Describing the project in terms of what it did for the business in terms of outcomes it produced is important and not something we always think about when pursuing a new project. + It was a learning experience with mistakes made, but Justin could articulate the positive business impact as a result of the project. * Increasing the scale of Secure Bearing was what prompted Justin to move into it full time. There was more work than one person could do – “more than just me.” + Increased scale could be a decision point for a business unit whose workload increases. Does it make sense to increase the people need and capture more market share, or is it better to take the learnings and apply it to a new area? + The scaling event created the decision point. + This goes back to the way entrepreneurs make decisions on whether to keep going or decide to stop doing something. Check out the great discussion on this topic with Erik Gross in Episode 268. It makes a nice compliment to this episode.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
What do drumming in a heavy metal band, achieving Cisco networking certifications, being part of a supportive technical community and family, and going back to school to study Windows and Active Directory have in common? All of these elements contributed to Justin Kelly landing his first role in tech. Justin, our guest this week in episode 270, is a CEO, a co-founder, and an advocate of continuous learning for his employees. This week we share the story of perseverance in Justin’s own learning journey to gain the expertise needed to work in IT.
Original Recording Date: 03-30-2024
Topics – Meet Justin Kelly, Motivated to Learn, Thoughts on Technical Certifications and Job Candidates, That First IT Job, Leaving a Good Culture and Exposure to New Things, Noticing Stress2:29 – Meet Justin Kelly* Justin Kelly is the co-founder and CEO of Secure Bearing, LLC, an IT services provider. + Secure Bearing helps its customers (mostly Fortune 500 companies) with the full project lifecycle (architecture and design, implementation, migration, etc.) in the following areas – datacenter, campus networks, and network security. In addition to this, they help customers automate the operations of networking and networking security. * Justin has worked in technology for about 14 years but has had an interest in computers since he was very young. + Justin says his family was gifted a computer when he was young that ran IBM DOS and had 5.25" disks. + One weekend Justin took the computer apart, and it never worked again. But this created a spark of interest in technology even then. + One of Justin’s closest friends always had computers, and Justin was able to spend time tinkering with and learning about computers. + Justin knew at that time he wanted to do something later in life revolving around computers. It was only later in life Justin would learn just how many niches existed when it came to working in technology. + John mentions the pattern of the tinkerer that we’ve seen in other guests who would take electronics apart without a fear of breaking something. Justin feels he takes a tinkerer’s approach to many situations even today.
5:14 – Motivated to Learn* In his early 20s Justin was a heavy metal drummer. At that time, he met someone who encouraged him to try Cisco networking. This person let Justin borrow some networking equipment and an old CCNA book. CCNA stands for Cisco Certified Network Associate. + “It just changed my whole perspective, and I was hooked.” – Justin Kelly, on first discovering Cisco and then seeking to get into IT + Justin shares the catch 22 of our industry. We need experience to get a job but need the job to get the experience. John says we’re really not great about giving entry level opportunities (i.e. no previous experience required) in this industry. * Being a heavy metal band drummer might be seemingly one of the farthest away compared to what many think is a “typical” path into IT. + See also Episode 174 on Dominique Top’s origin story at the Dutch Pop Academy. + Being a drummer was not Justin’s day job. He had been working at various warehouses to support himself. The band was just something he and other bandmates did for fun. + The genesis of Justin’s desire to be a drummer in this band was to connect with his brother (a guitarist in the band) since the two did not have a close relationship growing up. + Justin credits becoming a drummer as teaching him perseverance through pain (in this case a lot of practicing) or what he calls to the ability “sweat it out.” + Justin had bought a book on drumming and practiced on the drum kit his brother’s band had stored in their garage. One day while they were playing he started playing the drums along with them. Listen to Justin’s retelling of the story. * John says teaching himself how to be a drummer sounds similar to Justin teaching himself Cisco networking via the CCNA book we mentioned earlier. + Justin says the motivation to learn Cisco networking was a little different than being a drummer. He had wanted to work in IT but was not close enough to break into it, and at the same time, desired to pull himself out of poverty. + Justin mentions going to LAN parties for video gaming at different times in his life, but he didn’t know anything about networking then. + “I knew nothing about networking. It was compelling to crack that book and see the possibility of learning something new.” – Justin Kelly * Did Justin tell someone he wanted to break into IT? We wanted to know if that’s how he ended up getting the CCNA book. + Justin worked for a technology equipment warehouse doing “data security.” Companies would ship hardware to this warehouse that would either need to be destroyed or have data that needed to be wiped out before being destroyed (i.e. hard drives erased). + Justin could wipe out hard drives on any computers sent to this warehouse as part of his job, but that was the extent of what he could do. + The friend who gave Justin the Cisco gear and book had heard Justin talking about it and encouraged studying to take the exam. It was a gentle push of encouragement. - John has experienced a similar encouragement when people suggested he get different jobs in the past. + Justin says the unsolicited vote of confidence from a friend was a big motivator. This same friend also invited Justin to attend a meetup group for people working toward a CCIE (or Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert). - “Just being in awe of people who have mastered a craft was another source of motivation.” – Justin Kelly, on attending a meetup group of CCIEs - Being a part of this community of people was a fantastic experience for Justin. Everyone in the group was extremely welcoming and supportive despite him joining as a beginner compared to many others. - One member of the group in particular stayed in touch with Justin and held him accountable to finish the lab portion of the exam after he had completed and passed the written portion. - “Even to this day I liked to be around people smarter than me. There’s just absolutely no room for my own personal growth…when I am ‘the smartest person in the room.’ It’s not what I’m about.” – Justin Kelly - John has mentioned in previous discussions his desire to work with smart people who are smart in ways different than him. That way not everyone has the same weaknesses and blind spots. - As the owner of a company now, Justin likes to give back by mentoring others, motivating them, providing feedback, and watching others grow. - John says we don’t all give back the same way. There is not just one way be supportive of others just like there are multiple ways to learn something new.
16:53 – Thoughts on Technical Certifications and Job Candidates* What are Justin’s thoughts on the certification path? + There are pros and cons to any certification program whether it be Cisco, Juniper, Palo Alto, or something else. + Justin admits to failing a number of exams the first time he attempted them. + “I’m so glad I failed because I learned so much more, and if I had passed the first time on any of those exams, especially the CCIE…. For me personally at the time it just had so much weight in my own identity and my own investment in myself. If I had passed I would have been a much worse engineer…. The failures were bigger wins than the pass.” – Justin Kelly, on failing certification exams + Justin walked away from many certifications with a lot of pedantic knowledge or book knowledge. + Justin’s take on the certification landscape of Cisco vs, Juniper from 2015: - Looking back on the CCIE, there’s around 20% usable knowledge and around 80% disappears. While Justin never took it, the JNCIA or Juniper Certification seemed to be something that provided 80% usable knowledge and only 20% that would be lost. + Justin holds numerous certifications today and feels people will learn usable things from any certification, but there may be some scenarios you need to prepare for that are not as applicable to the real world. * What motivated Justin to keep going back after failing a certification exam? + Once you take an exam, whether you pass or fail, take a few minutes to write down what you remember. + Failing is a possibility and should be considered ok. Certification feedback might not give you enough to determine where you made mistakes and where the gaps are. We should do our best and not give up. + “Don’t quit. If it matters to you, don’t quit. You’re not doing yourself a disservice to keep studying and going through the motions, building those chops. You’ll be better, at least in the field you’re studying, if you keep going back.” – Justin Kelly, perseverance when taking certification exams * When assessing a candidate for their skills through his current lens as a business owner, how does Justin weight certifications? + Justin says he does not care about certifications when assessing a person’s skills. + There are 2 reasons people who work for Justin now take certifications. Both of these are well supported at Secure Bearing. - The company has vendor requirements to maintain compliance - The person has a personal goal to accomplish more certifications + When hiring, Justin and team try to create a group discussion or conversation with the candidate to understand - How the person works / what makes them tick - How they approach things in a business setting - Fresh perspectives the candidate has - Any viewpoints the candidate has which might challenge the way the rest of the team looks at things (seeking diversity) * How were the interviews Justin went through to get his first job the same or different than how he might interview someone today? + Justin had to face a lot of “stump the chump” style interviews as a candidate. Justin was able to use his knowledge from pursuing certifications to answer some of the questions that came his way. + Secure Bearing does not take this approach to hiring. They do ask candidates about certifications as well as continuous learning. + Continuous learning is extremely important in our industry, and a lack of it can cause loss of competitive edge for the company as a whole or for an individual. + One form of continuous learning is building a lab. + “If you don’t have an enterprise network to work on and you don’t know how to build one just build something…. I believe a part of certification preparation ought to just be supplementing with labs and going through the paces of standing up what you’re learning and tinkering with it, turning the screws on it until it breaks; and that’s really where the aha moments are.” – Justin Kelly + When Justin was studying for his first few certifications, it was mostly just Packet Tracer and physical hardware. Justin references other tools like EVE-NG, GNS3, and CML or Cisco Modeling Labs. + “The sky really is the limit to how much hands on people can get hands on even if they don’t have access to a production network.” – Justin Kelly * Nick mentions the value of moving to service provider or MSP as a valuable career step because companies like Justin’s have a mandate to get certifications. Is it a risk for a service provider to take on an employee who doesn’t have certifications? + There are weights to determine a cost effective hire. + They know the cost to train someone from no experience to certified status and a general timeline, which means it’s easy to determine the savings from hiring someone who already holds the certification(s). + It normally depends on the need for the role at the time, cash flow, timeline for delivery of projects for the business, and of course on the individual candidate. + Justin admits hiring mistakes have been made in the past (people who were impressive in the interview process but didn’t work out, etc.). + John just passed the 1 year mark as a hiring manager. Interviewing and hiring has been one of the more difficult things. - It depends on many different factors (geography and candidate availability, expectation of salary in the area, the hiring process used, etc.). - Panel interviews, for example, can make for slow hiring processes. - It is hard to find a potential mismatch post hire during the hiring process.
29:49 – That First IT Job* Before Justin broke into his first IT job, it was a lot of interviews with no callbacks. He had to persevere through disappointment. * In 2008 he passed the CCNA and had obtained some CompTia certifications before that. + The warehouse incentivized getting the A+ for example, but he also had the Network+ and Security+ from CompTia. * It was 2011 when Justin landed his first real IT job working for a private school. At the same time he was going back to college, which was also a big contributor to landing the job. + Justin mentioned he had limited Windows and Active Directory knowledge at the time. + Justin had grown up in Reno, NV, and attended community college right out of high school for a short time (less than a full semester) in 2004. He was taking a networking course, hated it, and then dropped out. + In 2011 Justin started an undergraduate program through WGU (Western Governors University) because it was affordable and involved a number of Windows certifications. - Most positions Justin had seen open around the time were more generalist or jack of all trades roles. Windows was just part of that. - During the job search Justin understood the job market in which he had to operate, and it’s a valuable lesson. + The private school that hired Justin was the kind of place that valued education above everything else. He specifically remembers the headmaster who interviewed him asking about continuing education. Being in college at the time helped get Justin in the door. - Despite having gone to school during this time to fill a gap in Windows knowledge, Justin tells us his current company Secure Bearing does not do any Windows work today. - The role Justin took at the private school was a generalist role spanning systems, networking, Windows, laptop support, etc. Justin’s role involved supporting both teachers and students at the school. - Though he supported end users of different ages, Justin approached the role the same way – with patience and compassion. The private school had a small student body and faculty who were well educated. - “I was fortunate to work in a place where respect was table stakes.” – Justin Kelly, reflecting on his first IT job at a private school * How did that culture at the private school affect what Justin looked for in future employers and what he sought to create later at his own company? + Justin describes the culture at the private school as fun. He remembers playing drums in school assemblies with his boss and other co-workers who played instruments. + “It was a short experience. I was only there for about a year, maybe less…a very enjoyable break into IT. It was my next job where I got to see the other side of the house, which was more of a hurt locker.” – Justin Kelly
36:12 – Leaving a Good Culture and Exposure to New Things* When someone works in a culture they enjoy for a boss they like, why move to a different company? + Justin mentions things rarely turn out the way he thinks they will. + Justin says his wife would describe him as somewhat “insatiable” in pursuit of the next thing. + “I moved on and up in my career with a little bit of reckless abandon…probably didn’t give it enough thoughtful consideration until much later in my career.” – Justin Kelly + The next role was working for a Cisco Master Managed Services Partner (MSP), and Justin calls this a dream come true. He was determined to make the move, and nothing could stop him. + Everyone at the private school was very supportive and happy for Justin. It was a positive experience to leave that employer, which Justin finds refreshing. - John says perhaps hiring managers should realize people on their own continuing education path will eventually leave the company as a result. * Justin describes the interview process to work at this Cisco MSP as the worst in his career. But nothing would stop him from taking the job. + The job was in Austin, Texas where Justin’s then girlfriend (and now wife) lived. He wanted to move there. + Working as a red badge for Cisco and being able to touch many different technologies was “intoxicating.” - A red badge is Cisco terminology for someone who is a contractor / 3rd party but acts as Cisco support when they take calls. - A blue badge is a Cisco employee. + Nick mentions the excitement of exposure that can come from working for a MSP (much more than working for a single company like a school). - Justin says there was no comparison from the school to the MSP in terms of technology exposure. He moved from refurbished equipment and no Cisco gear to an entirely new environment. * How was the overall working environment at the MSP after the challenging interview process? + The interview was not difficult from a technical perspective. It was unpleasant in culture and communication styles. + “The job, like I mentioned before, was the hurt locker. It was just more work than anyone could accomplish…. You’re thrown into the ocean and a little tiny raft to hold on to and told to sink or swim. I thrived in that environment and learned more in 13 months than I thought was possible…. Nervous system fry, level 11 volume…I won’t say you get used to it. Major issues don’t phase you as much after sustained trauma.” – Justin Kelly + Justin got exposed to many different vendor technologies, company politics and cultures, outages, and differences in operating procedures. + Justin doesn’t feel there was anything he was exposed to at the MSP which he did not like. + This company was his first exposure to automation, and Justin has taken those principles into consideration when designing ang building systems at every job he’s had since then. Things like putting together a run book for a technician, turning unstructured data into structured data, etc. fell into this category. + The pay at the MSP was poor. When he left the company, it was a considerable bump in pay. But another reason for leaving was to decrease stress.
44:36 – Noticing Stress* Did Justin notice the environment he was in was causing stress, or did he notice it? + Having the support of his then girlfriend and now wife has been a foundational component of Justin’s success. She has supported him like no other in his life, and a support system is invaluable. + Listen to how Justin’s wife would describe the way he approaches things. + “I had absolutely no idea that I was burning the candle at both ends and in the middle. And it took gentle nudging and maybe not so gentle nudging to help me realize that.” – Justin Kelly
Mentioned in the Outro* Any resources mentioned in a show will have links in the show notes. Check out the networking utilities Justin mentioned earlier if you’re someone looking to sharpen your networking skills. * Read job descriptions carefully about whether certifications are required or expected after taking a role. It costs companies a certain amount of company to train and certify people as Justin shared in the discussion. + If certifications are something we want when interviewing for a job we should ask how the company views certifications and whether they have training budgets for people to get them. + Maybe asking for a training budget is something we can get as a concession if a company won’t increase the salary of a job offer. * There was a powerful theme of getting support from others to do difficult things and its criticality to our success. Justin had that in a friend who gave him a nudge to get the certification and introduced him to a community of others working toward Cisco certifications. + Holding someone accountable is a form of support.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
What if you could increase your earnings potential based on the things you know and the things that interest you? Erik Gross, our guest this week in episode 269, shares the Most Valuable Knowledge Framework to help anyone identify the combinations of skills and interests which would be most valuable on the open market. Erik will share examples of using this framework when deciding to start The Tech Academy and the value of boot camps as a route into the tech industry for those with little work experience as well as for the career changer.
Original Recording Date: 02-17-2024
Erik Gross is a technologist, a consultant, an entrepreneur and founder, and a career coach. If you missed the earlier parts of Erik’s story, check out Episode 267 and Episode 268.
Topics – Finding Your Most Valuable Knowledge, Birth of a Coding School, Boot Camps as a Route into Tech3:26 – Finding Your Most Valuable Knowledge* Eric ultimately found the thing he could monetize. He had a foundation from which to work and some idea of how he learned, but Erik needed someone else’s perspective to tell him what he knew was something valuable. Maybe we aren’t highlighting the right things on our resumes. If someone doesn’t know what they should monetize, how do they find it? + There were a number of skills Erik had such as sales, writing, managing people, electrical assembly, etc. He calls them “pockets of knowledge.” We each accumulate them throughout life through various experiences. - “I had this huge collection of…things I was either really knowledgeable and / or good at, had been paid to do…. What I didn’t know was the relative value of each of those pieces of information…. Back in 2011 I had no idea engineers made the kind of money we make. I literally didn’t know that this thing I’d been sitting on for at that point decades was so valuable.” – Erik Gross, reflecting back on his accumulation of knowledge + Erik remembers the feeling of elation after being hired for his first job in technology. Then for a brief period he was frustrated about not pushing himself to pursue a technology career earlier. Erik realized beating himself up was not helpful and put a stop to it. - “…I had all these things that were passions or areas of knowledge. What was lacking was what are they worth on the market.” – Erik Gross + Now as part of his work as a career coach, Erik helps technology workers / knowledge workers find out what their most valuable knowledge is. Anyone can go through the exercise, and the basic pattern works like this: - Sit in a quiet place and document all the things you know about (areas that you have studied or in which you have skill, deep knowledge, or experience) - Separately, list everything you are passionate and interested in, even if completely unrelated to the list of things you know about - Put the list of passions and the things you know about side by side to identify relationships you haven’t previously seen - Erik gives the example of having a passion for telling stories together with a skill of audio recording and editing as well as a passion for children and being a good parent. This combination resulted in a client of Erik’s realizing they could start a podcast focused on telling kids stories, do all the audio production, handle the creative work of crafting the stories themselves, and combine that with a number of monetization strategies. - “But ultimately all you’re trying to find out is, ‘this intersection of passion and knowledge that I just found…is anyone paying for that in any form out on the market?’ And when you find, and it can be really surprising what you find, that people are, you’ve got a handful of what could be your most valuable knowledge.” – Erik Gross, on your most valuable knowledge - After finding multiple intersections between passion and skill that can be monetized, Erik also mentions doing a sorting process based on long-term potential, the resources you have to start immediately, etc. + The process we just described is what happened for Erik (an intersection of skills and passion). He had a passion for technology and really enjoyed it, and he had deep, existing skill in computers, programming, and technology. - Erik did not know that in the early 2000s engineers (software developers) were making very good money. When he found out, Erik felt he should have pursued it many years earlier and was willing to do whatever he needed to do to get into that field. - Erik says is it really fun to watch others go through this exercise. - For the entrepreneur, knowing your intersection(s) of skill and passion is worth money on the open market helps you validate that the idea is worth investing time and energy to pursue. + The exercise we’re talking about here can work for anyone in any job and does not require you be an entrepreneur. Erik gives us a practical example to illustrate. - Erik tells the story of working with a talented co-worker who had earned the name “Optimizer Prime” from the work he had done to rewrite and significantly shorten the execution time of SQL database queries for health and financial record batch processes (from 6-7 hours to just over 30 minutes). - Erik found out the above co-worker had pigeonholed himself as “the SQL guy,” and this person later learned these skills alone were not worth as much as he thought on the open market. - “This sort of point of view, this idea of your most valuable knowledge is just a useful thing for anyone to do, even if they’re just looking to continue direct contribution as an individual contributor working their regular job…. Yes, be really good at your individual job, and make a lot of money doing it.” – Erik Gross, on the applicability of the most valuable knowledge to anyone - The most valuable knowledge exercise would have been really good for Erik’s co-worker to leverage to look for other areas in which he was both interested in and skilled in to lead with during a job search. Erik’s co-worker was not leading with something that was as valuable as he thought. - “When it comes to figuring out if you’re entrepreneurially minded…having the confidence and certainty that the idea that you have has legs before you spend a dime gives you a lot more confidence as an entrepreneur. I see people that do it backwards all the time. They pull in a bunch of investment and they design what they think is going to be worth something on the market. And then they launch it, and it’s a giant dud…. Don’t do that. Figure it out ahead of time before you spend any money.” – Erik Gross, on the most valuable knowledge exercise for the entrepreneur + After doing this exercise over and over with people, Erik refined the process and wrote a book called The Most Valuable Knowledge Workbook. - Erik tells us this works well as a self-guided exercise. He will often have his clients work on the exercise on their own for a while and then work through it with them. - Erik has shared this resource for free because he truly wants to help people. You can follow the link above to get your copy, and if you want, you can also sign up to work with Erik as a career coach. - “It is a proven, workable framework for how to sus out what combination of passion and skill is actually worth enough on the open market that it justifies you moving forward and how do you gain certainty on that before you embark on that journey.” – Erik Gross + If we do the most valuable knowledge exercise, how do we build evidence of expertise based on a skill we have? And what should that look like? - Erik says sometimes this stops the would be entrepreneur. - It’s an interesting challenge to determine how to get credibility when you have never done something for pay. - If you’re deciding to start an endeavor, it is quite possible you may have already been doing it for many years but not for pay. Erik shares his realization that he had been coaching friends and family with their careers for around 10 years. Every time something came up and someone needed help, he had a pattern of activities he would do with that person. In his case, he asked the people he had helped for a testimonial. - Erik tells us it is worth it to do the first few deliveries of a product or service for free. Many people might disagree with this approach and insist on charging, but Erik tells us it’s really not for free but more about what you are getting in exchange for your work (validation and feedback that your approach is working and testimonials and referrals once something does work). The testimonials and referrals help establish credibility outside the circle of people you’ve already helped / impacted.
16:57 – Birth of a Coding School* Erik recounts the story of his son coming home from school in early 2013 and saying he wanted to do a developer boot camp (something he had heard about in his computing class in school). + Erik says the very first boot camp took place in 2012 in the San Francisco Bay area and was called Dev Bootcamp. Now the boot camp industry has grown to become a big part of our technology industry. + The boot camp Erik’s son wanted to attend was a brand new idea and advertised things like: - Intensive full-time training in all practical skills needed to be a web developer - Being connected with employers + “Wait a minute. I’ve been teaching technology for years. I’ve developed over the years an ability to break down complex technical concepts in a way that anyone can easily understand. I’m already trying to hire junior developers on the side for a lot of my contracts that I do for people and finding them really hard to get. I could do this! And so I did…. There’s a whole story there.” – Erik Gross, on the genesis of The Tech Academy - On the day we recorded this interview, it was The Tech Academy’s 10-year anniversary. + Before taking any action, Erik started to apply what he knew about most valuable knowledge and spoke with other technologists and recruiting firms about the idea. Some were skeptical of it, but many people were open to the idea of hiring someone who went through a boot camp. Erik then knew his idea had legs / had been validated as valuable in the market. + After validating the idea, Erik mentions making a mistake that almost stopped him from starting the school. It’s a great lesson for the entrepreneur. - Erik did some research as to whether anyone was doing the same thing in his area (Portland, Oregon). - He found a code school that had been around for 3 months already, and it destroyed him. He was afraid the town could not support 2 coding schools and nearly abandoned his idea altogether. But then Erik remembered something important that he goes through with all of his coaching clients. - “If no one is paying for the expertise that you have already, that’s a bad sign. If there’s no competition in the area you’re going into that’s usually a bad sign.” – Erik Gross, on almost giving up before starting The Tech Academy - The presence of another coding school in the area was confirmation people were paying for the services / outcomes a boot camp could offer. There have been up to 5 code schools in Portland in the 10 year period of The Tech Academy’s existence, and the only one that has survived has been Erik’s. - To date The Tech Academy has helped thousands of people get into tech. And it never would have happened it Erik had been beaten down by fear and anxiety. + Once Erik had the business plan sketched out for the curriculum and how to give people hands on experience, how encourage team collaboration for students, and how to partner with other organizations he recognized some problems. - Erik was trying to do this by working full time. - Erik knew he was not skilled at building policies and procedures for the business and sorting out the hiring process. After realizing his gaps, Erik found a business partner who had all those skills – his friend Jack (the one who had made the connection to someone in tech for Erik). - Erik and Jack created a “self-paced, instructor supported methodology for breaking into tech as a well-rounded, entry level full stack developer.” - The Tech Academy has added many different programs since it began spanning areas like AI, game development, UI / UX, Python, JavaScript, etc. The school’s mandate was to provide exposure and skills in new technology in addition to providing a solid enough foundation to allow graduates of the school to navigate tech industry shifts. - To get involved with The Tech Academy, visit learncodinganywhere.com.
23:02 – Boot Camps as a Route into Tech* Some boot camps have ties into a local community, while others may not. This can vary across the board. * There are 3 routes into a tech career – self-study, college or university, or boot camp + Self-study can be difficult and has some risk of not studying the right things. But it can absolutely be done. + Looking at a boot camp compared to college… - One pro of college is having enough time to go deep in the area of study. There isn’t time for this in a boot camp. - Some of the cons of college are how current the technologies you’re taught and how much practical experience you get on how software is developed in the modern world. It can take 18 to 48 months for a curriculum change to happen at a university, and they cannot keep up with the technology field. Colleges and universities also may not have mechanisms to simulate a real world work environment. - “Having done it for years now, it’s not easy to put in place a live project that is on real world software that helps people experience what it is actually like to go through a sprint, to be assigned a user story, to actually do the work on their own machine, to submit their code for review, to make any fixes, and to do a push through the various stages and get it out into production…. That’s not easy to setup, and colleges were never built up around that model. And so they don’t have it. And that’s not to knock colleges. Because what they can do a boot camp could never do. We cannot do a deep, deep, deep dive into data structures and algorithms…and how compilers actually work and how operating systems work. We can’t do that. But the flip side is, in a boot camp you can get the practical skills that are needed on the ground right now in 3-6 months and get a job paying $60,000 per year and then keep learning.” – Erik Gross - The speed of boot camp is faster, but they cannot go as deep. If you’re looking at a boot camp, Erik would encourage you to look carefully at the emphasis placed on the long term success of the student. Erik tells the story of seeing a competitor do really well for a time by focusing only on a single programming language (Ruby on Rails). Once the wave of popularity died down for Ruby on Rails, students who had gone through that program had difficulty finding jobs. - Erik cites his experience in the Navy and the intense fundamental focus to prepare people for what recruits might encounter in the field. This focus allowed people to learn and fix what they encountered rapidly to prevent people from dying. Erik took all of this into consideration when designing curriculum for his coding school. - At The Tech Academy, people don’t begin coding until they have had around 80 hours of instructions on fundamentals so that students have some understanding of what is happening under the hood when they do start coding. - “They know all that minute one. And all that anxiety and worry about ‘can I really make it as an engineer? Can I learn coding? That’s gone by the time they’re done with the first course.’” – Erik Gross, on the fundamental knowledge students of The Tech Academy have when they begin coding * Are boot camps also for career changers? + Erik says they initially thought the clientele would be young people with little to no professional experience. + “A huge portion of our enrollments started to come from people over 40 who were looking for that career change.” – Erik Gross, on the target market for boot camps being slightly different from what he thought + Erik recounts the first time this happened. For context, he and Jack did everything at the beginning and would interview every incoming student of the school. - A plumber going into tech was worried he might be taking a step backward in earnings potential. - “For a lot of careers, technology is so well paying that you’re not going to have to take a pay cut to make that shift. And that isn’t true for a lot of areas. So in 3-6 months you can shift over to a new career, and you’re not necessarily going to have to take a pay cut. But what really shocked us was that those folks were getting higher initial offers than the young folks not because of age but because they had time out in the business world. They knew what it was to operate in that environment and to be part of a collaborative team…and so they did really well on their interviews and they were getting higher offers. So absolutely a boot camp, whether it’s ours or anyone else’s…perfect for a career change.” – Erik Gross * To follow up with Erik on this conversation: + If you’re looking at monetizing your valuable knowledge, taking your expertise as a knowledge worker / technologist and figuring out how to build it into a scalable business - Go to yourcareerarchitect.com. + If you’re looking at the boot camp arena - Go to learncodinganywhere.com.
Mentioned in the Outro* A huge congrats to Erik and Jack on 10 successful years of The Tech Academy getting people into technology! + It was not a surprise that the curriculum focuses on fundamentals. Nick loves the approach to balance abstract and concrete learning like we spoke about in Episode 267 so things make more sense during the learning process. * Nick had not heard of The Most Valuable Knowledge Framework before this discussion with Erik. But it is an exercise any of us can do to gain insight and validate whether taking action is a good idea. + This sounds like a much more refined version of Area of Destiny from Episode 20. + Nick likes the idea of quantifying the value of these combinations of skills and interests and then putting them in order / having a way to sort them. This way we know what might be best to lead with when looking for a job or trying to break into a new area. + It would be interesting to marry this advice with that of John Nicholson from Episode 225. Nicholson shared his perspective as a former hiring manager and which skills are perceived as both expensive and irrelevant to a specific job that a candidate should remove from their resume to be considered for a role. + Use job descriptions and requirements for deciding which of your most valuable knowledge should go on a resume. * The discussion of building expertise reminded Nick of Episode 163 with Louise Bunyan and her story of bartering digital marketing services for horseback riding lessons. + Anything you do for free or for something other than money is referenceable on a resume! Consider having people recommend you on LinkedIn for the work as a testimonial. In our industry, there is no shame doing something to gain the experience. + As we build expertise we’re going to notice gaps that we might be able to fill by gaining or sharpening skills. For the hiring managers out there, sometimes hiring people solves the skills gap problem. That was the case when seeking his co-founder Jack who knew how to establish the structure of the organization they founded.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
The entrepreneur, business owner, and people manager are faced with difficult decisions as a part of leadership whether it be deciding to abandon a goal or eliminate jobs through a layoff. Erik Gross, our guest this week in episode 268, highlights the importance of learning from our failures while also owning the decisions that led to those failures. Listen closely to the way Erik owned his decision to become a software developer after some very pointed feedback from a friend.
Original Recording Date: 02-17-2024
Erik Gross is a technologist, a consultant, an entrepreneur and founder, and a career coach. If you missed part 1 of Erik’s story, check out Episode 267.
Topics – Advice for the Technology Entrepreneur, Resilience or Blind Optimism, Three Perspectives on Layoffs, Managing People and A Good Manager, Paid to Work in Technology3:07 – Advice for the Technology Entrepreneur* Would Erik’s advice for technology entrepreneurs be the same? He thinks back to former guest Al Elliott’s description of an entrepreneur from Episode 235, emphasizing that the entrepreneur’s initial idea of the solution to a problem may look different than the ultimate solution. + Erik says as an entrepreneur he’s had both successes and failures. The form something was in when it became successful or failed was quite different than what Erik had thought in every case. + “There’s this thing I learned…over the years…moments when you find out that you’re wrong about something are golden. They are some of the most important moments you can ever have in your life. You find out a few really important things about yourself in that moment.” – Erik Gross + In those moments… - Do you have the self-respect to admit and realize you were wrong? - Identifying what you were wrong about, which could have been affecting your performance for years, presents an opportunity to never do that thing wrong again. + The above took Erik years to learn and handle and is how he generally reacts once he gets past the emotion of being wrong about something. In his entrepreneurial work and in his work with people trying to break into tech (via The Tech Academy), Erik coaches others to process these situations in the same way. + We know that no one can be right all the time. It’s the way we respond in those situations that helps us grow! Erik calls these moments “growing moments.” + Nick would point out two hurdles in these situations: - Getting past your ego and questioning your self-worth - Motivating yourself to keep going and change what you’re doing or decide to quit + Erik would agree and say there are 2 factors at play: - “What you say to yourself sticks. When you say positive, self-validating things about you, they have a tendency to stick. But when you say negative things about yourself…maybe you never voiced them out loud but they are inside…those unfortunately stick really, really well. I’ve found it really helpful to recognize that most of those things, they come from outside influences. They come from others’ criticism, others’ attempt to belittle you or cause invalidation or cause uncertainty or worry in your life. And you can grab on to them and hold them, and they start to feel like that’s actually you. But they originally came from outside of you. When you’re a kid, man, the world is your oyster and life is full of brightness and gold and goodness and joy. External influences can beat that out of you, but it never truly goes away.” – Erik Gross, on negative self-talk and its origination - When you have been knocked down, it is up to you to choose to stand back up and keep going. Others can help build us up, but the choice and decision to keep going is ours. - Erik tells us he’s been knocked down many times and gone through situations of both tremendous challenge and pain. Though he did not always get it right, he did get it right enough to learn something about himself that he says can be a lesson for all of us. We are each tougher and more resilient than the credit we give ourselves for those qualities. - We get to choose whether to stand back up when we are knocked down (no matter how badly or to what extent we were knocked down), but do we remember that in the moment? Exercising the choice to stand up more frequently can help us recognize how tough we really are. The toughness is a recognition that we will inevitably fail in different areas, but we can be joyful in having a choice to stand up and the ability to make tomorrow a new day. Erik tells us this is true for him, and he has seen it be true for many others.
7:55 – Resilience or Blind Optimism* How can we determine the difference between being resilient and having a blind optimism about pressing forward? + Erik says this is a question any of us could ask ourselves, but it is particularly applicable to the entrepreneurial minded individual. Knowing when to pull the plug on something because it is unwise to continue with it is a challenge, and our ego can often get in the way. + “Ultimately all you can do is attempt to be as objective as possible in the moment and look at the situation and analyze the two decisions you have in front of you – continue to plow down this road that so far has been kicking my behind or let go of it, abandon that purpose, that goal, and pivot…. Only you can tell and judge what’s going to do the greatest good over the longest period of time. It’s a very personal decision.” – Erik Gross + In looking at the above, there are several areas of your life which will be affected regardless of the decision: - Personal - Family - Groups / work - To some extent, the impact could be all people in the above categories + Erik is suggesting a mental framework here in which we try to strip out the emotion and be honest with ourselves about which of the two options produces the greatest good long term for you, your family, and the groups in which you are involved. + This is a decision no one else can make for you and that you must own. + Once you make the decision, don’t look back and get stuck in regret. It will destroy you. + Erik is not perfect by any means but has had to make decisions like we’re discussing here.
10:10 – Three Perspectives on Layoffs* Erik recounts a story from his time running and trying to scale The Tech Academy when he and his co-founder had to execute a layoff impacting several people. That was a very rough decision. + “These people that joined you in your mission, leaned into it like you are…and you have to tell like a third of them that you didn’t make it go right to build the business strong enough to be able to afford them and you have to let them go…that is rough. But you’ve got to analyze it objectively. And you pull the band aid off, but you can’t look back in regret on it. Otherwise it was for not, and you will still dwindle afterward because you’re stuck in the loss of what you had to do.” – Erik Gross, a founder’s perspective on executing layoffs + Nick says this sounds incredibly hard. There is the decision to reduce your workforce but also deciding by how much and furthermore who will be cut. Most people impacted want to know “why me?” * Suppose you’re a manager who is told they must execute a layoff and has no choice in the matter. What is the advice for this person? + In this situation Erik would encourage the manager to start inside themselves for clarity on the situation. Handle yourself first. + Moving into executing layoffs and exit interviews without assessing your own internal disagreement with the situation will make the situation even worse. + “If there’s still any part of you that’s like…‘why are we doing this’…any frustration on it…you’ve got to have your own conversation with your leader and fully resolve that before you just jump into…actually embarking on it or you’ll be doing it insincerely. You’ll be doing it with your own doubts and reservations about the action.” – Erik Gross + As for selecting who will be impacted when it comes to layoffs, there are many factors we could discus. Erik would say the front-line manager or leader should know the business need, the projects the team under you are working on, and some idea of what the next 12 – 36 months might look like in your area. From there look at the group of employees and decide which of them will produce the biggest impact in that future time period using a ranking system (even though most of us do not want to judge or be judged). Erik suggests the ranking is something that must be done even if we don’t like it. + “You have certain rights as a manager, but you have a responsibility. And that balancing of ultimately the company has to survive, and that’s your responsibility. You can’t get away from that. That’s why you took the job. You didn’t take it to be popular.” – Erik Gross, on the responsibility of the manager + Managers should still seek to be kind in what they are doing. + After ranking the members of your team based on the metric above, the people who stay should be fairly clear. + When it comes to having conversations with people impacted by a layoff, it goes back to understanding the viewpoint of others. Erik mentioned he’s been fired in the past, and it stinks! - Erik mentions a couple of instances where the person delivering the message to him about being fired or laid off was kind and gracious. The kind approach helped Erik deal with the unpleasantness of the situation quickly and move on. - Other times in his experience Erik has seen these situations handled crassly or cause invalidation. They were not handled with kindness. - “You can never go wrong by being kind and nice to other people.” – Erik Gross * Suppose you’re the person receiving the news of being laid off… + Something applicable related to interview processes and getting job offers came up recently when Erik was giving a talk for students of The Tech Academy and recent graduates. + “You have to prepare to be rejected in the interview process.” – Erik Gross + When interviewing for jobs, people will likely get more “no” than “yes” answers. + “Even in the most ideal work situation, there is always a possibility that something will happen and they’re going to have to let you go.” – Erik Gross, on the reality of layoff always being a possible outcome + If you have done a good job at the company you’re forced to leave and can leave proud of the work you did while employed there, it can be of some help. + Erik has no advice that would be worth anything if it were trite like “just get over it.” The situation stinks, and there is no denying it. + But, Erik feels a caring and compassion for the tech industry - Knowledge workers are very valuable according to Erik. We can apply soulless machines and tools (i.e. digital computers) to real human needs and problems to make an impact for good. That impact ends up being greater than the time spent getting to the solution. - It takes a special type of mind to be a knowledge worker. It takes someone who is hard working, persevering, and a willing to be wrong to solve difficult problems. - We should not lose sight of our value as knowledge workers, especially if we’re let go. + It’s ok to be upset, feel bad for a day or two, go take a walk, etc. - “But don’t for a moment think that that is you that’s invalid, that you somehow are lesser than…. Surround yourself with really awesome people who see what you really are and demand that you live up to it.” – Erik Gross, on receiving news you have been laid off - Erik uses the example of his wife not allowing him to wallow or be in a “funk” for too long after being laid off. She knows his strengths, weaknesses, and how capable he is. If at any point Erik begins to lose belief in his abilities, she will kindly remind him of his capabilities, the expectation that he live up them, and that the current attitude cannot stand. We can all be a friend like this for someone else. - Nick would put his wife in the same category. She has always believed. * What about the business owner who has to come to terms with the need to execute a layoff? + The owner may not be executing the layoffs at the lowest levels, but that person has to start the chain of events to head in that direction. + “Here’s the thing. When you decide to start an activity, when you decide to start a group. Whether you’re stating it out loud, or internally, or you’re not even looking at it, the fact is that you’ve made a contract with yourself and with anyone else who chooses to join you on that mission. That contract includes, for me at least, one overriding principle – you as the creator of that activity are 100% responsible for its success or failure…period…end of story…. At the end of the day you own that thing, good or bad.” – Erik Gross + Erik says we can ask others to be responsible for the activity’s survival, and the right people might lean in and commit. + A business owner must help people understand the decision to execute layoffs belonged solely to them as part of being responsible for the success or failure of the company. This is ownership. There is no abdicating the decision to someone else, blaming someone else, or dodging the responsibility placed on the owner. - Even if the economic climate is not good, the business owner is still responsible for the company’s lack of performance or inability to weather that environment. + Sometimes reducing the workforce has to be done for the company to survive. - Though this is a brutal message to accept, someone had an idea for a business and was brave enough to create it. Without that happening there would not be jobs for people at the company. - “I don’t like a management worker divide at all, but having done a lot of entrepreneurial work, it’s the truth. You put yourself out there to build this thing. You’re owning it fully. That means you’re responsible and have the right to cut off parts of it if it isn’t working.” – Erik Gross + There are so many things to think about if you’re a would be entrepreneur, business owner, or manager listening! - A manager’s department is a microcosm of the same concept we’re talking about with the business owner.
21:12 – Managing People and A Good Manager* What made Erik want to gain experience as a people manager? + Some of this is the impulse to teach others well. Erik says in reality he has a mixed rate of success as a people manager. + Erik has done extremely well as an entrepreneur. But, he knows his strengths and weaknesses and chooses business partners that will compliment him well. - As an example, Erik’s business partner Jack is very good at making businesses scalable and implementing policies and procedures. + Erik managed people when he was in sunglasses sales and when he was a store manager for a flooring company - “At the end of the day what drew me to that is that I get tremendous personal joy from watching someone become more of who they are. I can see a possibility there. I can see this tremendous ability that could be unleashed whether it’s as a salesperson or as an engineer or as a project manager or someone who can achieve consensus in a real divided group…. When someone doesn’t believe that about themselves, but I know it’s true from close interaction with them, it is tremendously gratifying to help them push through that and start to recognize how awesome they really are. And when you do that, as long as you operate within the confines of how the policies and procedures of that company work, then you’re a good manager of people” – Erik Gross, on being a people manager - The belief and self-confidence of the people on a manager’s team is what produces forward motion for the goals and objectives of the team (and the overall company). + Nick sees this as a form of but not quite the same as being that friend to someone which we discussed earlier. The manager can see capabilities of the people they manage and can help their employees grow and learn to unleash these capabilities. + Erik has an odd mix of things he does right now as the co-founder of a school (The Tech Academy) and helps with marketing and curriculum development for it, he works full time for a technology training company, and he spends time doing career coaching and entrepreneurial coaching for technologists. - In Erik’s regular full time job he has an amazing manager who is skilled at managing the needs of the business and the long-term career needs of the people under her. Because of this, Erik’s manager makes a big positive difference in his life. The people leader has the opportunity to meet the needs of the business but at the same time help people grow personally and professionally. This creates very loyal employees. - Erik has had other types of bosses in his career who were not so great and is very thankful to have a good one. We hope our listeners can work for a great manager for as much of their career possible.
24:48 – Paid to Work in Technology* Right now Erik’s public persona is made up of being a technologist, a cloud transformation consultant, technology entrepreneur, and founder of a coding school. * Erik was not professionally paid as a software developer until 2011.
+ Since Erik was 11 years old, he has been writing code and working with technology.
+ As a teenager, Erik would write code on Texas Instruments calculators (specifically the TI-84 model) to create games and for school exercises.
- Erik would write programs independently of this to use for character development in the game Dungeons and Dragons.
+ In the Navy, Erik was not specifically programming, but he gained some very helpful experience.
- The Navy had to equip people like Erik to go out into a fleet of ships which could have an array of technologies onboard. And no one knew which flavor or combination of technology they would encounter because the ships were built at different times. Ships could range from being deployed in the last 6 months to being as much as 40 years old.
- The Navy had to prepare people for anything. This meant a deep dive into digital circuitry, components that make up CPUs and computer memory, how digital storage works, how to build logic gates, details of silicon, how to build an instruction set on a chip, binary numbers, etc. It was extremely deep.
- Erik ended up on a ship commissioned in 1956, which had no computer stuff on it.
+ After the Navy Erik went into sales, but with 1996 came demand for eCommerce.
- Erik’s business partners at the sunglasses company suggested the company needed a website.
- Erik recounts visiting a large tent outside a shopping mall with books that had not sold when they were in retail stores. He bought 8-10 technology books for extremely cheap and learned HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and Visual Basic. Erik built the company’s first eCommerce site.
- Erik loved working with and learning the technologies but was off selling sunglasses.
+ In the early 2000s Erik was a salesman for a flooring company, and there was a very complex software used to manage the company’s financial operations (booking jobs, doing flooring installs, billing customers, etc.).
- The company was the 20th largest flooring company in the country at the time and had specific software needs.
- The company needed to upgrade to the latest version of the software they were going to use, and Erik recognized how complex and difficult it would be. At this point he made it know that he knew about technology.
- Erik got looped into the implementation and customization of the updated systems, and he loved it.
- “I really do love this. But I’m in sales. I’m in sales.” – Erik Gross, on his thoughts after being involved with a large software upgrade at the flooring company
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“At each sort of job or chapter in my life, technology would come creeping in, but the actual shift happened at a very low point in my life.” – Erik Gross, recounting the years 2008 – 2010 when he was not doing well financially
- In addition to not doing well financially, Erik was also not doing well at home. It was causing a great deal of stress.
- It finally came to the point where a friend of Erik’s confronted him about the situation in a private setting. This friend said it was not ok that Erik was not making a lot of money and was very firm in the tone and delivery of this message.
- Erik understood this friend was right, knowing he was letting people around him down as well as himself. In fact, thinking about this consumed Erik for several days. He continued to think about it.
- Erik recalls being in the car with his friend Jack (who would later co-found The Tech Academy with Erik). Jack asked about his background and if Erik knew things that had potential to make a lot of money.
- Erik started talking about technology and computers when recounting his background.
- “Wait a minute. You’ve been programming since you were 11. You did all this computer nerdy stuff in the Navy. Why aren’t you doing this?” – Jack, Erik’s friend who would later become a co-founder and business partner
- Jack told Erik he was going to connect him with a friend who worked in technology.
- Erik got on the phone with the friend of Jack’s and was asked all sorts of questions about what he knew.
- “Erik, you don’t need to go do a degree. You just need to learn how software is being made now. What are the current technologies? That’s all…. I can give you the kind of things you need to learn. I can write it down for you. And if you’re willing to burn the midnight oil and just rip through this and get up to speed on how software’s being made right now, I can try to get you in on a contract I have with the state…. It’s going to be really rough, but if you’ll do that, I’ll go to bat for you.” – Advice for Erik from friend of Jack’s who worked in tech
- Erik went home and told his wife about the conversation and how much work it would take him to get up to speed, seeking her support if he chose to do it. He told her about the earning potential of putting in the work and how much he loved the discipline of computers.
- Erik’s wife agreed she would support him.
- Erik bought a cheap computer on CraigsList and a number of technology books from Goodwill.
- He would stay up until the early morning day after day to learn the fundamentals of object-oriented programming, understanding databases, revisiting languages he had used and how they had changed, and learning about new programming languages like C#.
- “Two and a half weeks into this that moment happens like it happened on the submarine, and it all clicks…. And I wrote up a resume and sent it out, and one week later I had a job for $84,000 a year. I had been making $38,000 a year or less. My life changed on a dime. It was that come to Jesus moment of a friend sitting down and saying ‘this is not ok.’” – Erik Gross, on technology becoming a professional activity
- The tools Erik needed were there the whole time. He just had to realize it for himself.
- Erik loves the tech industry and has done very well in it to this point.
- Nick loves the fact that Erik decided to take action based on a friend’s feedback. It’s never a bad idea to share your background and skillset in a specific area with someone else and getting some guidance from others in the same industry on how to improve or fully pivot into a new area.
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If you would like to follow up with Erik on this discussion, you can contact him using one of the following links:
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Career Architect – helping technology entrepreneurs launch and scale knowledge-based businesses without risky investments and years of trial and error, using an engineering-based approach to design, testing, launch and growth.
- The Tech Academy – a licensed trade school which helps people transition to careers in technology through delivery of online and in-person coding boot camps
Mentioned in the Outro* Nick was particularly struck by the mention of “being that friend” to others in this interview. + Being that friend involves holding someone else accountable for living up to their potential in a kind way. It’s making the other person own the action to do something about the situation. + People did this for Erik because they cared about him enough to do it. + Though not stated in the episode, Nick would classify this as mentorship. A mentor can hold us accountable in a kind way, make us own our actions, not let us off the hook, and not let us make excuses. A coach can do this too, but Nick immediately thought of a mentor’s role. * We discussed decisions and the analysis of the impact of those decisions. + This is especially important for an entrepreneur. It could mean abandoning a goal or shutting down a business. + A consistent pattern in former guests looking at job changes or other major life changes was the importance of getting input from their families before making a decision. This is a way of seeking support for a decision we want to make which could / will impact the rest of our family. * Kindness really does matter. + This immediately reminds Nick of former guest Al Rasheed, who consistently sends positivity into the community. - Al was our guest for Episode 73 – Journey to Presenting at Conventions and Episode 74 – Feedback and Career Impacts of Convention Presentations. + Kindness matters in difficult situations like layoffs and how we treat people who have been impacted by tough situations. + Kindness also matters in how we treat ourselves. Can we be kind to ourselves and forgive ourselves for making mistakes and failing at things?
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman * Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
As a boy learning about computers, as a Nuclear Engineering student and instructor, and as a franchise owner and successful salesperson…the early career experiences of Erik Gross, a senior technologist and our guest this week in episode 267, contain a theme of learning. Erik learned resilience, adaptability, mental toughness, business operations, empathy for the beginner, how to teach others effectively, and when it makes sense to leave a job.
Original Recording Date: 02-17-2024
Topics – Meet Erik Gross, Pursuing Naval Service, Perception and Reality of the Nuclear Engineering Program, Abstract and Concrete Learning, Selected as an Instructor, An Unexpected Career in Sales, Deciding to Make a Change2:32 – Meet Erik Gross* Erik Gross is a senior technologist with 3 principal activities: + Erik is a Cloud Transformation Consultant, he helps run a software developer boot camp, and he consults technology entrepreneurs on building scalable businesses. + If you would like to follow up with Erik on this discussion, you can contact him using one of the following links: - Career Architect – helping technology entrepreneurs launch and scale knowledge-based businesses without risky investments and years of trial and error, using an engineering-based approach to design, testing, launch and growth. - The Tech Academy – a licensed trade school which helps people transition to careers in technology through delivery of online and in-person coding boot camps
3:13 – Pursuing Naval Service* Right out of high school Erik went into the Navy’s Nuclear Engineering Program. It seemed an odd choice to others after growing up in Northern California. * Erik says the Navy is where his formal technology education began, but it isn’t where his love for technology originated. + Erik remembers the day his dad brought home a VIC-20 vividly. He was 11 years old at the time. + Erik’s father had programmed IBM mainframes in the 1960s, and at that time people wondered what it might be like one day to have a computer small enough to sit at your desk. When home computers came out, Erik’s dad got one right away. + “And he did something that changed my life…. He unplugged it, turned it over, pulled out a screwdriver, and popped off the back. And then over the next hour or so he proceeded to teach me EVERYTHING about the fundamentals of the internals of a computer…. Every bit of mystery about computers was removed from me in like an afternoon. My dad is a very patient, phenomenal teacher. And that’s where the journey really began.” – Erik Gross, on the first time his father taught him about computers * Erik’s choice to go into the Navy is really due to an overeager Navy recruiter, which he appreciates to this day. + Erik would tell you his grades in high school were not great and did not reflect his intelligence. They are also not necessarily a reflection of one’s future career trajectory. + Erik scored well on the ASVAB test for military service. Based on Erik’s scores on this test, the Naval recruiter gave Erik a second test covering math and science. Though Erik is not 100% certain how he really performed on it, he did get accepted into the Nuclear Engineering program. + “And it changed my life. So no, it was not originally what I was intending, but the things I learned in that program, I use them every day now…decades later.” – Erik Gross, on the influence of the Nuclear Engineering Program + A normal enlistment was 4 years, and it was 6 years to go into the nuclear program (2 years of school and 4 years of service in the fleet). Erik did not believe he was college material but was excited for training in electronics, physics, nuclear engineering, heat transfer and fluid flow, chemistry, higher math, etc. + The focus on technology was really what convinced Erik to agree to participating in the program. - Erik remembers his father getting kits from Heathkit like their ham radio to build together component by component. Erik’s dad was able to communicate with people in Eastern Europe in the early 1980s as an example. - “From a very early age, anything technology related, anything logic problem related…I would eat it up.” – Erik Gross
8:10 – Perception and Reality of the Nuclear Engineering Program* Was the Naval program what Erik thought it would be when he originally enlisted? + Erik’s father had served in the Navy (in Vietnam and other places), and his grandfather also served in the Navy as a pharmacist. Based on this, Erik had at least some idea of what the culture might be like. + The technology aspect that was laid out to Erik at the beginning was exactly what was covered, but getting used to the culture was an adjustment. + “The level of professionalism, discipline, communication required to operate successfully in that environment…that I did not know was coming, and I found very helpful. And it was quite the adjustment when I got out of the service to be in the civilian world.” – Erik Gross + Boot camp lasted 2 months, and Erik then went to 6 months of electronics school. - Six months of education on “Navy hours” (60 – 70 hours per week) is about 1.5 years of education anywhere else. + After electronics school came nuclear power school, and after a month or so they got into higher mathematics. Erik did not do well in math in high school. - The Naval Nuclear Propulsion school is rated the most difficult to go through in the military, holding the highest dropout rate and a nonzero suicide rate. - If you did not make it through the school you still had to serve your 6 years, but it would have a great impact on the job you were given. - The pressure was intense, and at times Erik wondered if he could actually succeed. - “I had to really look inside myself and decide, ‘what do you do when you get knocked down? How tough are you?’ Again, I’m an 18-year-old kid, and I decided there was no way I was giving up. And I push through and mastered that and now actually love math. But that was a rough, rough moment for me….” – Erik Gross - Instructors wanted people to succeed but also knew the students must have their own internal drive. Erik said they would keep you in the material and force you to spend more time on it if you were not doing well. In Erik’s class there was a low dropout rate. + After electronics school and nuclear propulsion school you get sent to something called Nuclear Prototype (a number of working nuclear reactors stationed across the country) for a period of 6 months. - These were operating nuclear reactors but were not at sea. Some of the “at sea” aspects were simulated. - Erik tells the story of being stationed at one of these in Idaho (an actual submarine) and being given the chance to do practical drills based on the theoretical knowledge he had learned.
14:00 – Abstract and Concrete Learning* Erik mentions two things came out of this which influenced the fact that he teaches people now as well as how he tries to help people when he teaches. + Students were given a book of over 400 items which composed a checklist of things they needed to practice and know. + Students would have to learn different systems by drawing them and then going to trace them throughout the nuclear prototype facility. There were 70-80 systems. requiring study. Each of the systems were things Erik had essentially learned in isolation from seeing them in a submarine. + “I remember looking at what I’m studying and all these things right next to it going through the wall. And all of a sudden this mental shift happens where I realized that not only did I know what almost all of those other things penetrating the wall were related to, what systems they were part of, but I saw how all of the systems I had studied so far were actually interrelated, where they actually met, and how one could affect the other. And all of a sudden my mind snapped open, and I got a grasp of the whole system…. And from that point forward every system I would study would…just add to the understanding of an already cohesive model of everything going on on that boat.” – Erik Gross + At different times in his life Erik has been in charge of teaching others. One example is his work to develop a well rounded software developer boot camp, which can be extremely difficult when there are so many different technologies to learn. + Nick mentions this is a lot like zooming in on a specific technology or system and zooming out to see the larger picture of how they are connected, much like we might do concrete example problems in math to help lead us to an understanding of the higher level abstract idea. + Erik says as engineers / technologists we should strike a balance between abstract principles behind something and concrete implementations of concepts. This balance between the theory of something and the practical application of the theory is something Erik and those he works with at The Tech Academy have needed to keep in mind when helping people get into the tech industry through avenues like software developer boot camps. + Nick feels it’s harder to go from the abstract to the concrete than in the opposite direction. + Erik mentions having spoken to friends who teach computer sciences and the challenges they have striking this balance. + Nick mentions technical certifications that may require one to study and take a test without forcing a practical application component as part of the test. Not that we would not learn some practical application while studying, but there could be a mismatch in theory vs. practical application. - “With certain rare exceptions when we’re teaching people technology, copy and paste is not your friend at the beginning. Type it out. Get your hands dirty. There’s no better way to really get that understanding…. Although, actually there is one better way…teach it to someone.” – Erik Gross
20:15 – Selected as an Instructor* Upon entering the Navy, Erik was not sure if he would stay in beyond his 6 year commitment. He imagined spending 2 years in school and then 4 years on a boat, but it turned out differently than he thought. + Erik had done well in electronics school and to his surprise was in the top 10% of his class at nuclear power school. The nuclear prototype (practical training) was when everything came together, and Erik did extremely well there too. + After graduating from the program, Erik was selected to be a classroom teacher for the very same program. He was scared at the proposition of teaching a class of people who were roughly 4-6 months behind him. + “Something happened about an hour into that first class. I don’t get to talk about this a lot. I’d found my home. I didn’t know that I had a gift for patience, for breaking down complex subjects, for paying attention to what’s going on in the learner’s mind, trying to grasp their point of view…and it just clicked and it came together.” – Erik Gross + During our discussion, Erik has a realization that this comes from his dad, a patient and effective teacher like none other. + Erik fell in love with teaching and even worked as part of a team to improve the overall program curriculum. * To graduate from the nuclear program, students were subjected to a panel interview. + The panel interview was 1.5-2 hours long. + The interview’s outcome would determine if they passed or failed the entire program. + The interview was with 3 experienced nuclear reactor operators who had been in the program 20 years or longer, and they can ask you anything from the last 18 months of your education in the program. + “I’ve experienced pressure at various points in my life, and sometimes that pressure has exceeded that hour and a half. But very few things come close.” – Erik Gross, on the panel interview to exit the nuclear program * Erik coaches people today on how to get into the tech industry, and when it comes to going through interviews, he has tremendous compassion and understanding for them. + It’s very easy to lose sight of what things were like at the beginning of our journey into technology, especially if we’ve been a technologist for many years. + In his coaching Erik tries to help people - Calm themselves for job interviews - Answer questions they do not immediately know the answer to - Showcase how they think to an interviewer + Nick says we were all learners once and continue to be learners. Remembering what it was like to be interviewed could motivate the interviewer to work harder to set the person being interviewed at ease and calm nerves. + “Any work you can do in any aspect of your life to be able to be willing to see something from another person’s viewpoint is time well spent.” – Erik Gross
26:17 – An Unexpected Career in Sales* Erik served as an instructor in the Navy’s nuclear program for 2 years and then as part of a group called the reactor controls division, he served on a nuclear powered cruiser for his final 2 years of service. * Erik left the Navy after getting tired of working with machines. + “Ultimately I wanted to move into something where I had more people interaction, and I didn’t see that as part of the career trajectory.” – Erik Gross, on leaving the military + Erik says as a way to foreshadow that technology kept creeping back into his life as his career as a civilian progressed. * After leaving the Navy, Erik went into sales for about 7 years. After first thinking he had no sales experience before this, Erik reflects on his time in Boy Scouts many years ago. + Many Boy Scout troops hold a yearly event called Scout-O-Rama, which is also a big fundraiser. + Erik and his troopmates were encouraged to sell tickets to Scout-O-Rama, and whoever sold the most tickets would get a new 10-speed bike. + “I found out that for the right motivation, I’m fearless. That’s not true. The fear is there, but I don’t care.” – Erik Gross, on being motivated to win a fundraising contest in Boy Scouts + Erik would knock doors near his Northern California home, and he even stood in front of the local Safeway for hours sometimes after school or on a weekend. + Erik sold 888 tickets and won the 10-speed. + When reflecting on what he wanted to do after the Navy, Erik thought back on that experience with Boy Scouts. - He believed in what he was selling and was passionate about scouts at the time. Because of that previous experience he knew he could pursue a sales role and succeed. * How was the job interview for the role in sales compared to what he went through in the Navy? + Erik had settled in Portland, Oregon after his Naval service. + Erik worked for a company that would work with manufacturers of home improvement products, create infomercials for them, put them on a looped video tape, and then ship a tv and vcr out to the different retailers (Home Depot, Lowe’s, etc.) to display on an end cap with the products in question. - Erik was hired to work for this company specifically to sell vcr tape duplication services. - Erik was not excited about the job and did not perform well in it. + One day, a lady who had helped get Erik the job asked if he would like to make some extra money on the weekend working for her husband’s sunglasses business. The job was manning a roadside booth selling sunglasses to customers. - Erik agreed. He drove up to a tent at a busy intersection in Portland and would there meet one of his future best friends. This person showed Erik what to do and turned him loose to sell to customers. - “Within a half an hour I realized the entire course of my life changed. I fell in love with that activity. Never saw this coming…at all. You get to meet person after person after person from all walks of life. You have a 2 to 5 minute sales cycle. You learn wonderful, new things about people. They walk away super happy. And, I was making bank! And so that’s how it started, and for the next 7 years, that’s what I did.” – Erik Gross, on selling sunglasses on the roadside - Selling sunglasses enabled Erik to travel across the Unites States and even to Australia at one point. * How did this activity of selling compare to how Erik felt when teaching for the Navy? + Erik eventually became a partner in the business and had to train people they would send to him in the field. It was very similar to when he was an instructor, requiring patience and an understanding of what it was like to be new. + Erik says the business was somewhat unusual and that they would refer to themselves as “roadside warriors.” Erik and others would be in a town for 7-10 days at a time, sell as much product as possible, and then move to another town. - Erik said those who worked this type of job would have to handle all logistics such as finding a new location to sell product, speaking to the property owner, securing permits and licensure to operate, and performing all setup. - He had a lot of compassion for new employees who suddenly relocated to a strange area to start this type of work. - “Teaching is teaching. You’re adding value to the person. You’re helping them accomplish their goals. And if you make it about them, you succeed.” – Erik Gross + Nick says this sounds like Erik was learning a new system when he had this role (all the logistics, interacting with people, etc.).
34:16 – Deciding to Make a Change* When does someone decide they want to stop doing this kind of work? + Erik got married young and had kids young. Two of Erik’s children were born during his time in the Navy, and one more was born during his time as a traveling salesman. + “I would leave March 1st to go on the road and come back around October, and I might fly home once or twice or three times during that period. It was brutal…. You’re making a good amount of money, but it’s brutal on home life.” – Erik Gross + Each year for a while Erik and his wife would tell themselves it was going to be the last one in the sunglasses sales role. While he had tried a few other things several times during the off season, once February came he would prepare to go back out on the road again. + Erik worked in this role from 1994 until 2000. After that he transitioned into flooring sales (an entirely different chapter). + Erik shares a story about finishing up his work in Hawaii and being told he would go to Australia next. Within a couple of days he had an operation up and running. These types of situations taught Erik a lot about himself. + The role was very much like being a franchisee in that there was a lot of freedom to run the business as long as they conformed to certain guidelines. This allowed for keeping the lion’s share of the money. * Nick feels the dynamic of knowing something needs to change or that continuing to do something is not a good idea can play out with any job. Maybe a listener out there doesn’t think what they are doing is wise to continue, but the motivation is not quite there yet to make the change. What did it really take for Erik to decide to leave and do something else? + Erik reflects back on the summer of 2000 when he and his wife told each other this was to be the last year in the sunglasses business. + Despite there not being a single moment of clarity, Erik started to look at what he was doing and wondered where it would end. He remembers seeing people working for the companies still doing the job in their sixties. + “As much as I enjoyed it…there were so many wonderful… moments of meeting great people and getting incredibly comfortable with sales. I couldn’t see myself doing that. It was this gradual shifting of that scale…and it just gradually shifted over.” – Erik Gross, on realizing he didn’t want to continue in his role as a traveling salesperson + Erik points to an internal struggle he had been having. Each winter when he wasn’t selling, he would try to start something new or make a change, but nothing seemed to succeed. He tried appliance repair, different sales endeavors, and even one idea related to DSL. + Erik works a lot with technology entrepreneurs and mentions it can be very difficult when we try to start something several times and fail. - “When you set out to start something and fail, especially if it’s a side activity or whatever…you do that two, three, four times…it can really hit you.” – Erik Gross, on failure - Erik lacked some confidence to make a change and rely entirely on himself to make it be successful, but despite that he decided to leave the sales role and trusted he had the toughness to transition into something else.
Mentioned in the Outro* Special shout out to listeners in Poland and Singapore for putting us inside the top 200 on the Apple Podcast charts in the business and careers categories! * People leave jobs for many reasons such as + Toxic culture / stressful environment + Poor management + Not getting pay raises + A mismatch in what the job expectations are compared to what you signed up for + Being on call all the time * It was a mixture of knowing the situation as a sunglasses salesperson was not sustainable for Erik’s family and looking at the end state with the understanding he did not want to be doing it for the rest of his career. + If you know you want to make a change but do not know how, you may need to talk to a trusted friend, a mentor, an industry peer, or a coach to get some clarity and some help building a plan to move forward. * We can all be mindful of people who are new to a situation or experience and have empathy for them. Let’s remember that in our interactions with others!
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Sean Tolram, our guest this week in episode 266, became a people manager because he truly enjoys helping others. In this episode, Sean will describe the gaps he needed to fill after taking on the role of managing technical people, the mindset shifts he adopted, and the impact of mindfulness principles on his team’s performance which eventually led to becoming head of mindfulness. We will also discuss the human stress response, business cases for wellbeing programs, and practical tips for using mindfulness to lower stress levels.
Original Recording Date: 02-10-2024
Sean Tolram is Head of Mindfulness at HSBC. If you missed the first part of our discussion with Sean, check out Episode 265.
Topics – Transition to People Management, Mindset Shifts and Becoming Less Technical, Defining Mindfulness, Shifting to Full-Time Work on Mindfulness and Wellbeing, A Business Case for Wellbeing, Stress Reduction Tips2:38 – Transition to People Management* Nick suggests the act of clarifying and simplifying your message is part of working with higher level leaders. * People management isn’t something Sean went looking for. He left IBM after no longer enjoying it there. * Sean started working for British Home Stores as a developer focused on building an e-commerce site. + “I wasn’t looking to be a manager or to manage a team. I was just looking to do my job. But then, as time went on, I found that I was really enjoying helping other people…. And it was from doing that that I then became known as somebody who is able to make other people better.” – Sean Tolram, on transitioning to people management + Sean spent time with some of the younger people on the team who were struggling. As a result those people were able to perform better, and their managers noticed. The people Sean had helped had told their managers he helped them. + For example, Sean taught one member of the team HTML after work in multiple short sessions. Putting him into a team became associated with people becoming better at certain things. + “When I think back now I realize that that was the point where I stopped chasing the money and chasing the promotions and I just stopped thinking about it. Prior to that when I was at IBM it was all about how to do I get rich…. At that point when I stopped thinking about that and I just started enjoying my work and enjoying the people that I was with, I realized that I enjoyed helping other people. That then led me into management roles…. I didn’t really go after it, but it was through the behaviors that I was showing that I put myself in that position.” – Sean Tolram - As the organization grew and restructured, people knew Sean was able to do the work of a people manager and put him in that role. + Are helping others to build technical as well as not technical skills looked upon equally as relatable experience or evidence that we are capable of being people leaders? - Sean would say yes and feels he was not good in his earlier career at managing up but good at working with his team. In fact managing up is still something he finds difficult to do well. Sean sought improvement in this area by forcing himself into areas of discomfort. - Sean eventually became a bridge between his team and senior management and would relay messages from senior management to his team. - “So it was all those little things that added up where it was kind of management type behaviors even though I wasn’t called a manager that then led to me being given that role.” – Sean Tolram + How is the way you manage up different for a front-line people manager compared to an individual contributor? - Part of this was learning what senior management do and do not care about. Sean was making the mistake of providing too much information. - Earlier in his career, Sean needed to provide a lot of specifics to his front line manager. He might provide, for example, details on what was done and the problems and challenges along the way. - “Managing upwards to senior management…it’s all about cutting out the fluff and getting straight to the point because that’s all they want.” – Sean Tolram - Sean suggests we need to work out the big impactful statements or headlines to share with senior management. For example, providing a slide deck full of information might be something they (senior management) decide not to read or do not remember. - Instead of communicating with everyone the same way, Sean had to change the way he communicated with his leaders to make it more effective and to achieve what he wanted to achieve. - At the time Sean was not seeking feedback from peers on how to better communicate with management (though he wishes he had been). Sean applied the concepts of testing and learning on the job to the social environment at work much like he did in his scientific study days and later when he was writing code. It took some time using this method, but Sean learned.
10:00 – Mindset Shifts and Becoming Less Technical* Sean tells us the teams he was managing were getting larger, and he went through a significant shift of mindset as a result. + “And it became less about me. So it became less about the work that I could deliver and more about the people because it was the performance of those people that was reflecting on me. So if the team were not performing well, even if I was, it doesn’t matter. It’s my team. If the team make a mistake, if there’s an error that goes live on the website, it’s not the fault of the person who made the error, it’s my responsibility because I’m heading up the team.” – Sean Tolram + Sean had to then start to think about supporting people to perform well / to the best of their ability. He knew there were talented people on his team but did not feel they were performing as well as they could be. Many errors were making it to the company’s production website during his time at HSBC. * Sean started reading books on people management and trying different things, but nothing seemed to work. + Then Sean began implementing principles of mindfulness to help people understand the impact of stress and how to deal with it. + Sean found that his team and many others he looked at were operating in a constant state of stress. At the time teams were measured on the number of daily updates they could make to the company website, and due to this choice of metric updates to the website were getting made that maybe should not have been. + Sean was in a position to change this. He slowed things down, allowed people to take breaks if they needed them, and enabled team members to think about whether they should push out their updates. This reduced the error rate by about 50%, and all they had done was introduce principles of mindfulness. + “So it wasn’t that we were all going off and meditating for hours. It was more around understanding how our brains worked and creating an environment where our brains could be at their best.” – Sean Tolram * Sean tells us he was surprised at enjoying people management so much and ended up leaving his technical skills behind. + He didn’t want to go back to being a designer or developer. Rather than be a specialist, Sean was more interested in helping others develop specialties in certain areas. + Sean enjoyed bringing teams together and getting them to collectively work toward a goal. Additionally, he enjoyed seeing people improve and enjoy the careers they wanted to achieve. + Sean had that same feeling as when he discovered HTML and it felt both easy and natural. Managing people and helping them with the challenges we have discussed felt like what he was supposed to be doing the whole time. * Was Sean concerned at all about becoming less technical? + Sean did struggle with that a bit. Our skills can get outdated quickly, and returning to individual contributor after a couple of years as a manager would require some learning and training to sharpen skills. + Sean thought about what he wanted to do for the rest of his career, and he found it to be an easy decision about what he enjoyed most (the work in management). But he acknowledges it won’t be an easy decision for everyone. - For those technical aspects of interest and that brought Sean enjoyment, he has been able to keep up with them over time. - Sean mentions doing freelance web development on his own time as a way to keep up with the technical side. It’s turned into more of a hobby he says. - Nick mentions the podcast being a hobby that allows him to meet and learn from new people. * Nick appreciates Sean’s emphasis on giving his team permission to care for themselves by taking a break when needed. + Nick recounts a situation where he encouraged a people leader to take time off because they were sick and emphasized the need to model that behavior for the people on their team. Nick says until he worked for a manager who modeled this behavior and communicated to the team it was ok to operate that way he felt far more pressure to work despite being sick. + Sean tells us the attitude and personality of the front line manager can impact the entire team. The manager being in states of panic or calm will affect the team accordingly. + “And I do see people management as a skill like learning a language or learning a musical instrument. There’s all these elements that have to be learned…. So I think it’s really important to treat it as a skill. Read the books. Do as much as you can to become an amazing people manager because at the end of the day you’re there to serve your people in the best possible way. And you need to continue developing that ability so that you can do the best for them.” – Sean Tolram - Sean says we might not find ourselves in a management position because we’re good at managing people.
17:40 – Defining Mindfulness* “Mindfulness is about having awareness of what’s going on so that you can make decisions about how you live your life. It’s that awareness.” – Sean Tolram * We often live each day on autopilot and let things happen to us without control of our attention. In a typical work day we might get contacted via e-mail, instant message, a phone call, or by other communication channels. + Sean references a study done that highlighted workers in the 1970s might get 3 inputs per day (a phone call or other interruption). For us today it’s more like 300! + This creates information overload for our brains and an inability to get to everything. + Mindfulness can help us notice when we are being distracted and bring focus back to where we want it to be. * Sean has used mindfulness to help with public speaking, for example. It helps him recognize symptoms of stress like faster heartbeat and rise in body temperature. He stresses the importance of practicing so we can notice these things are happening earlier (maybe before standing up to speak / being put on queue to speak). + Noticing allows us to apply tools to calm ourselves or put us in the right state of mind to do a presentation or have a conversation with someone. * Suppose you’re in a meeting and someone says something that triggers you. This engages what Sean calls the primitive brain, and we go into fight or flight mode. We might snap back verbally at someone and regret it later. + With mindfulness we can develop an ability to create a gap before we respond to situations that will allow us to pause, take a breath, think logically and respond rather than react. + Sean gives the example of receiving an e-mail from someone who is critical of you with other people copied. + There are many more applications in the workplace for mindfulness. * Mindfulness is not a new concept and has origins in the Buddhist religion. + In the 1970s mindfulness was brought to the West and made more accessible to others. + Today mindfulness is being used by different companies, by Navy Seals, and elite athletes. Sean mentions even his kids use mindfulness in school today and that it is becoming more mainstream once people see the benefits. + Along these same lines we have to be careful. Mindfulness cannot make all of our problems disappear. + “It may make you more aware of your problems and how they’re affecting you. But what I always says is that then gives you information that you can use to make decisions to make decisions about what you do next.” – Sean Tolram, on mindfulness as an information source * What do we mean by mindfulness practice? Are mindfulness and meditation the same thing? + Sean says mindfulness is something we can do in the moment when we need it. For example if we’re getting upset in traffic or because someone jumped in front of us in line somewhere, we can do a breathing practice or a body scan right then and there to notice tight or tense muscles. We can even practice mindfulness while doing the dishes. + As one progresses in mindfulness, meditation is a part of it. We might dedicate 10, 20, or 30 minutes even to meditate. What this really means is taking time to sit and focus on your breath, and when you get distracted, notice and make a decision to redirect attention back the breath. This is a mindfulness practice. - The dedicated practice for a period of time is meditation, while mindfulness can be done in the moment. + "We say mindfulness is a gym for the brain, and that’s like doing reps in the gym for the brain…noticing you’ve been distracted and then bringing your attention back…… The more you practice that, the easier and more automatic it becomes so you can then apply it in those tough situations when you need it the most. " – Sean Tolram, on a mindfulness practice + The above aligns with some of the books Nick has read, such as: - The Way of the SEAL by Mark Divine Allyson Machate talks about having a mind gym that we visit to practice - Peak Mind by Amishi Jha discusses the result of studies which found that 12 minutes of meditation per day is the sweet spot of dedicated time that can improve your decision making in any walk of life + Nick feels like there may be a misconception out there about what meditation is and means. Apps like Calm have made it more accessible. + Sean shares that he was doing mindfulness during our interview since it started. In the moments when Nick was talking. - “In the moments when you’re talking, I’m noticing signs of stress in myself. Because this is an unusual situation for me…but being on a podcast, unusual situation, my brain is saying potential danger, potential danger. So I’m noticing my shoulders are raised slightly. I can kind of feel like every now and again I’m starting to talk a little bit faster than I normally would do…. So when you’re speaking, I’m doing a very kind of discrete mindfulness exercise just to kind of bring myself back down and maintain a certain level so that I can speak to in a clear and coherent way.” – Sean Tolram, on the live practice of mindfulness - Sean tells us it is difficult to switch on mindfulness in the moment, but he’s able to do it because he has put in the practice.
26:40 – Shifting to Full-Time Work on Mindfulness and Wellbeing* In Sean’s previous role at HSBC, he managed the teams who put out content across HSBC websites. It was high pressure, and Sean saw a number of people who would burn out or get sick due to work. + These people would take time off work, get treatment, and then end up in the same situation again. + Despite Sean giving his teams the chance to take better care of themselves, they often would chose not to do so. When he would notice people not taking lunch breaks Sean would speak to people and try to make them comfortable taking those breaks. But there were team members who just couldn’t do it or were not comfortable taking the lunch breaks because of their experiences with the cultures of previous teams. + Sean realized we often go through our education and learn almost nothing about how our brains work. Once we are put into the world of work which isn’t necessarily optimized for our brains (i.e. might put our brains in a state of threat), we might not have the tools or skills to function well in that environment. + Sean became a manager because he enjoyed helping people. He found after teaching people about the way their brain works and how to create a brain friendly environment, it was helping people more than anything else. * Sean then got further into mindfulness because it helped him do the thing he enjoyed – helping other people. Sean tells us it was more luck becoming Head of Mindfulness than any one thing he did. + He became known eventually as the mindfulness guy. People knew it was something Sean was passionate about practicing because he let senior management know he was using mindfulness to help others and the results it was producing. + When the pandemic hit, many organizations wanted a way to support employee wellbeing. HBSC decided at the time to create a permanent mindfulness team after seeing the positive results Sean had communicated to senior management. Sean was asked to head up the mindfulness team. - Thinking back he feels this was a lot of being at the right place at the right time and a little bit of luck. It was also because others knew about the work he had been doing. + Where would a mindfulness department fall from an organizational structure standpoint? - Sean says right now his department is separate from HR because of the source of their funding, and this allows his team to operate across all areas of the company (HSBC) without limitations. - Nick sees a similarity here to when Sean was in HTML design and decided to work with other people in development, testing, etc. Th external organization to other groups allows looking at benefits of mindfulness to people across the company while examining challenges which may be specific to someone’s role, location, or job function. - In other organizations concerned about employee wellbeing (a big focus in the corporate world at the time of this recording), this function may reside within HR. Lately Sean is hearing discussions of why wellbeing should reside outside HR so it can have a greater organizational impact.
32:58 – A Business Case for Wellbeing* What if a listener does not have a wellbeing program at their company? + Sean says in his case they were doing mindfulness already and reporting on the results. There’s nothing to prevent people from doing it if they have the time and interest, but be sure to report on the results of the work you’re doing to prove the worth. + More and more studies highlight the link between health and wellbeing, performance at work, and organizational results. Check out actual studies on the internet to help create a compelling case that can impact a company’s bottom line. + “If you just look at the stats for stress, stress is one of the biggest causes of long-term absence from work. When you’re stressed, lots of things happen…. It has an impact on your health, and you can become ill. When you become ill, you need to take time off work. That then leads to absenteeism. Also it leads to staff turnover…. When you plug some numbers in you can see the cost of stress to an organization on average, and the numbers are massive.” – Sean Tolram - Sean also mentions presenteeism. This is when people are at work but not able to perform to the best of their ability. * Nick thinks creating a business case is the next iteration of managing up for Sean. + Proposing new ideas to leaders can be scary, and it is something we have to overcome. + People in leadership positions want passionate individuals to suggest new ideas. We need to remember this can be a way to make a senior leader’s job easier because they can’t get to everything. You can prove you have thought something through with your business case. + Sean gives an example of getting an instant message from his direct line manager about chatting for 5 minutes and the stress response this can trigger. - The stress response often has to do with social hierarchy and fear of being kicked out of the troop. There are primitive reasons for this, and they are not easy to overcome. - We’re trying to go against our natural human instincts, and it will be different for every person. As we have discussed, it’s noticing when these things happen and deciding to do something about it. + We also have to navigate organizational constructs like management chains and whether our direct line manager would support us communicating with a skip level manager.
37:29 – Stress Reduction Tips* It helps to understand at a biological level what happens when we’re stressed. + Your brain has sensed danger and reacted as if you are faced with a wild animal. But it likely is not a wild animal. It could be a manager or a colleague. + The stress response is not in and of itself a bad thing. When in a state of stress, our blood rushes to muscles in our arms and legs and our bodies flood with adrenaline and cortisol. Our pupils dilate, we breathe faster, and we start pumping more blood throughout the body. + “It’s almost like a superpower where you’re being primed to fight or run away.” – Sean Tolram, on the stress response - When you hear stories of someone picking up a car to save someone else, for example, that’s the stress response in action. + We can start to recognize stress symptoms as they appear. In fact, Sean did this right before dialing in for the podcast recording. He did a 2 minute mindfulness practice to help calm himself. - When we are stressed our breathing is more likely to speed up because we are tying to get more oxygen. - “Just the act of breathing is a really simple way to reduce the levels of stress….but there’s science behind it….By consciously slowing down your breath you’re signaling to the brain ‘I’m ok. I’m not in danger….’ That then creates a cascade that can calm down your nervous system and move you into a more relaxed state… If we’re looking for just one really quick, simple thing that we can do reduce stress, it would e to focus on your breathing and just to notice what’s happening with your breath.” – Sean Tolram - We can make our exhale longer than our inhale to help relax ourselves and slow down our breathing as well. Some people like to count, perhaps counting to 3 while they inhale and 4 while they exhale. - Another technique is a quick body scan. Sean gives the example of focusing his attention on his shoulders and easing the tension in them during our recording. We can use body scans to understand how parts of our body react during times of stress and then relax those areas if we want to. It’s the awareness that is key. * Book recommendations from Sean: + Your Brain at Work by David Rock - Sean tells us this is very practical and shows how mindfulness can be applied in the working environment. + How to Be a Productivity Ninja by Graham Allcott - This is not a mindfulness book and discusses how to value your time, manage your inbox, and manage your calendar. To Sean it’s a book about mindful working. * The best way to follow up with Sean is to contact him on LinkedIn – Sean Tolram. + Sean gets contacted by organizations who want to start a mindfulness program but are unsure where to begin, and individuals sometimes contact him for personal coaching or mentoring.
Mentioned in the Outro* We want to say a special shout out and thank you to former guest Leanne Elliott for suggesting Sean be a guest on our show. Leanne is the co-host of the Truth, Lies, Workplace Culture Podcast along with Al Elliott. We highly recommend checking it out! + If you want to listen to the episodes we recorded with Leanne, check out Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2) and Episode 238 – Managers as Culture Keepers with Leanne Elliott (2/2). * Sean became a people manager because he liked helping others. The people he helped were communicating his impact for him to their managers, and he developed a reputation of helping others. Without that reputation, perhaps he would not have been considered for a people manager role. + It was a similar story when Sean got into mindfulness. Using the techniques made him more effective as a manager. He was passionate about the topic of mindfulness, he shared the techniques with his team, and he communicated the impact on his team to his leaders. That developed a reputation for Sean as “the mindfulness guy.” * For more discussions on mindfulness and stress, check out: + Episode 192 – Begin a Mindfulness Practice with Brett Hill (2/2) - This episode contains a number of great tips on mindfulness in interviews and details Brett Hill’s transition out of tech and into mindfulness + Episode 90 – Book Discussion: The Inner Game of Stress by Gallwey, Hanzelik, and Horton – a good book discussion covering all things stress and some tools to help + Episode 91 – Career Stress and the Healthy Mind Platter + Episode 214 – Across the Patterns of Burnout with Cait Donovan (1/2) - Burnout expert and coach Cait Donovan discusses the connection between stress and burnout - Be sure to check out Cait’s podcast FRIED: The Burnout Podcast * The impact of a poor culture / poor environment has an impact on us even after we’re out of that environment. Remember, managers, you are the culture keepers of your team!
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
This week in episode 265 we’re joined by Sean Tolram (a part 1 of 2). We’ll hear about Sean’s experiences studying biotechnology and his discovery of HTML, how he got into web design, interview tips and how we can connect with others during interviews, ways to collaborate with people from other teams through curiosity, and thoughts on communicating the results of our work.
Original Recording Date: 02-10-2024
Topics – Meet Sean Tolram, A Scientific Researcher Discovers HTML and Web Design, Feeling Unprepared for Presentations, Elements of Interviewing, A Grad Scheme at IBM, Something More Creative, Learning from Others, Communicating Results2:11 – Meet Sean Tolram* Sean Tolram is Head of Mindfulness at HSBC. + There is a mindfulness team at HSBC focused on trying to embed mindful ways of working across the organization.
2:40 – A Scientific Researcher Discovers HTML and Web Design* Sean studied science in school. Around this time they had started to work with DNA and began talking about cloning. Sean mentions Dolly the Sheep, the first animal to be cloned. * With biotechnology seemingly taking off, Sean decided to go and study it. + “I then realized working in scientific research was not as glamorous as I thought it would be.” – Sean Tolram, on his work not being what he originally expected + Sean remembers starting out spending hours studying bacteria in a hot research lab. He realized continuing in that field would require him to live like a student for much of his life (getting research grants, etc.), which was not what he wanted. + Sean eventually wanted a job that paid more money and decided to leave biotech. * Sean applied to any company whose name he recognized, not caring too much about the specifics of the job. + Sean ended up getting a job at IBM as part of what he calls a “grad scheme.” This was around the year 2000. * As for the experience in biotech, Sean tells us every day was a real struggle because he had no desire to be there. + He worked through it to pass to be able to go on and do something else. + It’s difficult for young people to be able to pick a career they want to do for the rest of their lives. Sean would tell us most will go through several career changes throughout their lives. + Sean remembers one of the modules in his biotech course that covered web design. This is when he wrote his first few lines of HTML. + “I think it was just maybe a couple of days worth of work, and I found that far more interesting than anything else in my 3 year degree that I did…. Really at that point I knew that web design was the one thing that I’d sort of tried, and I was intrigued and interested to do a little bit more. I just didn’t know how.” – Sean Tolram + Sean mentions he reached out to technology companies and pharmaceutical companies after completing the biotech course of study. * After discovering web design and HTML, Sean started to tinker with it in his own time. The initial task he was given was to put an image on a web page (nothing more than that), and he explored headers, tables, and bulleted lists next. + “I just started to build up the page and add more and more. And it just felt very natural. It felt more natural than anything else I was doing in my degree. And I was finding that I was remembering things very easily.” – Sean Tolram, on learning HTML + Once Sean built something using HTML, he could easily remember how to replicate it. He would also think of different ways to do it. + Nick can see the transfer of problem solving skills from doing scientific research to building websites with HTML and changing your approach based on the observation of output on the page. + Sean eventually moved into user experience where they did a lot of testing. He recalls that his degree was really about running a lot of experiment , testing different things, and learning what works. + Sean’s thesis for his degree was a study on the effectiveness of popular types of mouthwash under different conditions. Changing the conditions and testing the results parallels the way Sean’s career ended up progressing.
9:21 – Feeling Unprepared for Presentations* It is likely researchers require a lot of documenting of their work. How did that experience improve Sean’s writing skills throughout his career? + In the scientific field it’s about documenting the hypothesis, results, method, and conclusion. + Sean finds himself using that same principles today. Now that he’s in senior management, a proposal for something he wants to do follows a very similar structure. * Nick asks if as part of the program Sean was in they had to give presentations sharing their results to others? + It reminded Nick of the challenge Neil Thompson had before starting Teach the Geek. If you would like to listen to the episodes we did with Neil, check out Episode 193 – Communication for Specialists with Neil Thompson (1/2) and Episode 194 – Question Askers and Problem Solvers with Neil Thompson (2/2). + Sean says when he was an undergraduate they had to present to a room full of PhD students and senior lecturers. - “At that point, none of us had ever had any training around how to speak in public. We’d never even thought about it. Then all of a sudden we have to get up in front of this room where everyone looks miserable. They don’t look like they really want to be there. You’re talking about something they’re probably not interested in, but they have to be there to observe you…. It’s a very intimidating atmosphere…. So most of my presentations at that time were a total car crash…. At the time I just thought wow, I’m really bad at public speaking. I’m never going to be able to get up in front of a room and speak.” – Sean Tolram - The atmosphere was quite stressful. caused impostor syndrome and a state of stress, and it was almost a feeling like one was wasting the audience’s time. - Sean didn’t understand at this time how stress can impact how we think and behave, but he remembers his heart beating rapidly, talking fast, and feeling sweaty during these presentations. + Nick mentions his eighth grader’s hesitance to give presentations and his encouragement to her to keep doing it. The exposure to doing this is a good thing. + When we say public speaking, it doesn’t mean giving some keynote at a conference. It starts with a room of your peers or people who have more experience than you (like presenting for a grade in school). It can be intimidating. + Sean says his kids (7 and 11) are excited at the chance to speak in front of a room of people and how interesting it will be to watch as they continue their education.
13:37 – Elements of Interviewing* Sean tells us the interview process for the role at IBM was not really technical and that it was assumed the company would teach you the skills needed. It was more about personality and culture fit. * As part of this “grad scheme” as Sean calls it candidates would rotate and learn various skills like coding, graphic design, testing, and project management. * Nick suggests when we are in interviews it is a good thing to ask about training opportunities to increase our depth in a specific area. For example, maybe you know something at a 200 level of depth and the company you’re interviewing with wants more like 400 level. Will they train or let you take training to get there? * In his current role at HSBC, Sean conducts interviews. He realizes he likely would not have hired his younger self, feeling that his interactions in those past interviews were not genuine or authentic but rather a bit exaggerated. + “For me it’s really impressive if somebody knows what they don’t know and they’re already thinking about how they can get there.” – Sean Tolram, on the importance of showing self-awareness of our skill sets in interviews - Sean feels this candidate self-awareness gives them an advantage. + Many people might feel showing your vulnerability in this way might prevent them from being hired. - If you go into interviews and exaggerate what you know, it “might” work in your favor. But interviews can figure this out by asking the right questions. Sean prefers speaking with people who take an honest approach. - Do you have the core of what you need to do the role, and are you showing it to an interview? - Sean likes it when candidates he speaks to have researched and understand the HSBC strategy (for being net 0 by 2030, for example). - “This is where the business wants to be. This is how I feel like I can develop myself to contribute to that…. Right now, this is there I am. This is what I can do. I feel like I can come in here and I can do a job right now, and I can do it well. In addition to that, I’m aware of those areas where I’d like to improve and I’d like to push myself so that I can continue to grow with this organization.” – Sean Tolram, sharing an example of tying current skill set and professional development to a company direction in an interview - Nick would agree honesty with our skill sets and experience is always the best policy in interviews. - Researching a company before interviews is always a wise thing to do, but understanding the company goals and thinking about how we can contribute to them by making ourselves better is a great suggestion! + Sean did not have LinkedIn years ago after his experience studying biotech. He would encourage us to connect with people at the company where we would like to work. - There was a time when Sean was considering leaving HSBC. He connected with people from other banks to find out what they do and even ask for advice. Doing this kind of prep work can help us learn more about a company and what is happening there to stand out as a candidate. - Consider also looking at the news about the company, whether good or bad. You can be aware of it and provide your take on it in an interview. Sean calls this out as a great thing we could do in an interview. - Nick says putting in the time to research like this shows a level of interest as well. People might find out through research the values of a company clash with their own personal values and would then need to make a decision on working there. + Knowledge of the business and organization is one side of interviews. The other side is human connection. - We will connect with some people more than others, but being nervous can prevent us from making connections with others. - Sean consistently encourages young people to practice interview situations. - “The more you practice, the more comfortable it becomes, even if it’s to yourself in front of the mirror…. You do the training so that you perform better in the game. The interview is the big game, so you don’t want to just turn up there with no practice.” – Sean Tolram - This preparation and practice allows us to be as comfortable as possible in an interview and allows us to make a connection with the interviewer. * Nick suggests connecting with and reaching out to others for advice is a form of interviewing, even though we are the ones asking questions. We should be making sure we ask questions during interviews as a best practice. + Sean mentioned it’s been fascinating to learn how the brain works in different situations (part of the reason he got into mindfulness). + When we are in an interview situation we are usually in fight or flight mode, and since stress responses are firing up, access to higher brain function may be cut off. We cannot operate at our best in these cases, but being aware that it’s happening gives us the chance to calm ourselves and enable being the best version of ourselves. - This is why people’s minds go blank in an interview or in a team meeting, for example. Sean says people can say crazy things when this happens. + Sean recounts an interview experience from years ago where the interviewer described the culture of the team and how they liked to go out drinking. Sean was nervous and wasn’t thinking clearly. When asked if he enjoyed doing the same, Sean said “yeah, I drink quite heavily.” - The truth is Sean rarely drinks (which has always been the case). - “And I said that in an interview because my mind was all over the place, and I wasn’t consciously thinking about the words that were coming out of my mouth.” – Sean Tolram
25:13 – A Grad Scheme at IBM* The role at IBM as part of the grad scheme did not match what Sean thought it would be during interviews. He tells us it was a little bit like being back at a university. + The incoming graduates (including Sean) were sent around doing all types of training, even getting to do some travel as part of the experience. + Once all the training was complete, things ended up being different than what Sean expected. He was sent on a rotation or a “placement” through different jobs for a couple of months each. - Some of the roles were roles Sean had never done or had no interest in doing. - One example of a job Sean did was software tester for Tesco. He didn’t have an interest in doing it or know if he would be good at it. - “But I sat there, I followed the instructions, and I did it. If you do that enough times, it becomes soul destroying because this amazing career that you dreamed of kind of seems like it’s been taken out of your control and you’re just being moved around onto these different projects.” – Sean Tolram - Sean says he felt much the same as at the university. He was doing it just to get through it and did not feel it was motivating him or giving him energy. He was getting paid, could support himself, and could live comfortably. It’s a fine balance. * What is meant by grad scheme? Is that a special program for college graduates? + Each year IBM would bring in a group of 30 or 40 percent graduates and train them / immerse them in the IBM experience. The company had hopes that those folks would eventually become future senior leaders within IBM. + IBM was making a big investment, and a number of people did the training and then left the company. + “When we did the interviews we didn’t realize fully that that’s what a grad scheme consisted of, so that was a bit of a surprise.” – Sean Tolram + Before Nick started working for a technology company 6 years ago he did not know companies had these types of programs for recent college graduates (academy programs, grad schemes, etc.). - If you’re in school now or fresh out consider these programs as an avenue to get into tech! * Sean now mentors and coaches graduates at HSBC. Young people in school aren’t thinking as much about their future career. They are more focused on getting through school. + In the UK, university students can take a year to do an internship at a company and then go back and finish their degree. + Doing an internship with companies who offer it can make it easier to get into a company’s grad scheme and end up helping your long term career. + Researching companies who offer these types of programs and how to get into them is a very beneficial thing to do. + Nick likes the idea of taking a year to do the internship without needing to do school at the same time. It can give you full exposure into the working world. + HSBC has global internships as do other large financial institutions and technology companies. They also have grad scheme type programs. + Sean tells us he is involved in helping the people who come through these programs get adjusted to the world of work. + “That’s the sort of support that I didn’t have back in the day when I was starting. And I think that’s one of the reasons that I didn’t enjoy it because you’re kind of dumped into this environment which is very strange, very unfamiliar. You kind of feel like you don’t belong there.” – Sean Tolram, on supporting people through internships and grad schemes + A grad scheme can be competitive to enter. Sean compares it to The Apprentice and mentions it’s a high stress, high pressure environment. + Making connections in these programs can be awkward. People want to be friends and make connections but at the same time want to be seen as a standout compared to everyone else to get the best roles. Sean says this can mess with your head and is not really a normal way of being.
32:11 – Something More Creative* During the rotation at IBM, Sean realized he wanted to go into something more creative. He had been working with HTML to build web pages that were both functional and looked nice / provided a good user experience. + There were not any roles that fit what Sean wanted to do despite communicating what he wanted to his management. + Sean was moved around to different roles and would do some HTML work here and there. Some roles allowed for graphic design work in Paint Shop Pro, for example. + Sean would do design work and present it to the development teams to apply it to websites. + "It was all about building functional websites that worked. Nobody cared how they looked…. The devs just wanted to get it through functional testing so that they could move on to something else. It kind of felt like I was on my own and nobody really cared about the same things. " – Sean Tolram, on the disparities he saw between functionality and design + Sean would make suggestions for button placement on websites, suggest a standardized look and feel, customized branding, etc. * Nick has seen instances where a company would hire one firm to design the website and a different one to build the functionality based on the design. Are design and build commonly separated like this? + Sean has seen examples even in recent years where the priority is on the build. Design would be after this and then content (the words on the page). + Having the content team, the dev team, and the design team pulled together working on requirements from the beginning and then building something that does the job works really well. - “Throughout most of my career that’s not really how it’s worked. You’ve had separate teams, often managed by different people with different objectives, not really collaborating as well as they could.” Sean Tolram - Nick mentions this sounds like the structure of a product team with a product manager, engineers / developers, and designers all part of the same working group or team even if they may have different managers. Sean says this is how he’s seen it working best. - At HSBC they have been moving toward job descriptions and roles that are not quite so fixed but rather focused on identifying an organizational need and pulling in the people with the right skill set to help. It’s about managing resources. Sean is seeing this work very well at present. - In the past Sean has consistently seen instances where the content team would be left without enough space for the text needed to go on a website because the website was not designed with the content in mind. This has to go back to the dev team, back through testing, and makes the process take longer. - Nick sees the design, the content, and the development as analogous to knobs on a sound board we need to set properly to achieve the ideal sound. * “As my career progressed, the one thing that I think really worked well for me was learning a bit about all of those different areas…. I was seeing a lot of specialists – someone who only does dev, someone who only does design. I started to gain experience in all of those areas, even SEO, user experience, analytics, A/B testing. I ended up not becoming an expert in any particular area, but I knew enough about those areas. I could work with a team. I could bring people together. I could manage a team of experts. It was when I decided to go in that direction that I started to be put into more kind of management type positions….” – Sean Tolram
38:27 – Learning from Others* Did the lack of people caring about the design cause Sean to seek to learn about the other areas? + Yes! Sean felt like no one understood him. But he realized he had been doing the same thing as everyone else – thinking his viewpoint or focus (design) was the most important element of a website. - Websites had to function properly in addition to looking pretty to be valuable. - Sean realized his designs would be better if he understood limitations the dev team had, so he went and learned more. - Testing teams were sometimes looked at negatively, but in reality they can save a company money and reputation by ensuring quality. - Sean made a conscious decision to learn more about how testers test and what they need to be more efficient to better inform his own work. + Sean would spend his own time working with and seeking to understand the roles of other teams. This was in addition to the work he was already doing. - Sean would ask members of other teams like the test team if he could shadow them to learn more about the work they were doing. It might be 30 minutes or for a shorter period like 10 minutes. - “I consciously spent additional time with those people so that I could understand what they were doing, and what happened was quite quickly I was able to link that to the work that I was doing.” – Sean Tolram - The dev team had limitations on button sizes, for example, so there was no point designing a button which did not fit that limitation. Everything was being built using tables, so too much complexity in design based on that would take longer for a developer to build. - “And it helped me to build relationships with those teams, and that was the most important thing. And once we had those relationships going they would then come to me and say, ‘Sean, we’re building this thing. Where do you think we should put this button?’ And that’s when it really started to come together.” – Sean Tolram - These principles can apply to other departments and groups adjacent to where we work. * How open were people when Sean asked to learn about what they did? Were people hesitant? + Most took the curiosity as a compliment, while others wanted to get on with their work and did not see value in spending time with Sean. + We have to brush it off when people don’t want to talk with us and not waste energy. + “It was finding those people who were willing to be helpful, and what I realized was the majority of people…want a sense of community. They want to feel like they’re part of a team. They want nice relationships nice conversations.” – Sean Tolram + It helps to compliment others when seeking to learn from them. We should always be polite and respectful when approaching others. + Sean would provide positive feedback to a team’s front line manager on something they accomplished, and that was very helpful. + “Making time to build those relationships rather than just focusing on my job, that was what made the difference.” – Sean Tolram
43:44 – Communicating Results* Nick likes the idea of keeping management in the loop and suggests they would see a benefit from the collaboration described here even if not quantified well. * Sean mentions people he’s had managers who became managers due to their technical expertise. Those people were not going to encourage a collaborative team culture because it was not part of their skill set. They were happy to let Sean do that part, however. + Sean had to learn how to sell the work he was doing in a way his managers would understand. + “I wish I did more of this in my earlier career…. It’s awkward to sell yourself and to try and show people how well you’re doing, but it’s the only way that people are going to know.” – Sean Tolram + Sean realized the things he was doing to increase collaboration within the company were important and that he was able to produce good results. He suggests sharing the end result with others (a product that delighted a customer) and letting them know it was possible because of the collaboration amongst those involved. * Nick says the persuasion, selling, and pointing out of bright spots to advertise internally we discussed is the on the job training for the next interview someone needs to be in. It’s transferrable to interviews. + Sean has started to think more about this throughout his career. When he began his career he was focused more on his own work and doing it well. + “I could complete 100 tasks really well, and to me I’d have a sense of personal satisfaction. But it would mean nothing to anybody because it hadn’t got out there. But if I can create a story around those 100 tasks in a simple, succinct way that outlines the value that those 100 tasks have provided, then suddenly you have the attention of the right people.” – Sean Tolram + Last year Sean wanted to show how his team is saving HSBC money. The team were simplifying processes and then recording the time savings. At the end of the year, Sean provided not a massive report but a single statement: - “We’ve invested 30 hours this year in simplification activity. That will now save us 400 hours of effort every year from now on. And that was it. One statement, and I got more of a reaction from that than any of those massive reports that I’d created in the past.” – Sean Tolram + Sean wishes he had known these things earlier. Only from experience and understanding how the world works was he able to figure this out.
Mentioned in the Outro* We want to say a special shout out and thank you to former guest Leanne Elliott for suggesting Sean be a guest on our show. Leanne is the co-host of the Truth, Lies, Workplace Culture Podcast along with Al Elliott. We highly recommend checking it out! + If you want to listen to the episodes we recorded with Leanne, check out Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2) and Episode 238 – Managers as Culture Keepers with Leanne Elliott (2/2). * For more episodes on interviewing, we recommend checking out: + Episode 205 – Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 1 + Episode 206 – Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 2 + Episode 81 – The Joy of Interviewing with Manny Sidhu * Being honest about our current skill set and thinking about where our company is going can help us get a promotion to the next job level. The sane types of responses we might give in interviews can help us think on how to level up where we are. + Consider what skills need to be refined or added to get to that next job level and how they contribute to company strategy. How does your impact level inside and outside the organization need to change? Also, think about the technology landscape and trends so as to make professional development choices to help in your current role and beyond (even if you leave the company). * Being honest with ourselves may tell us we’re not as good as we would like to be in communicating the impact and value of our work and its impact to the organization. + Human connections with our manager or management chain can help us understand how to communicate in a way leaders understand.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman * Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
This week in episode 264 we’re joined by returning guest Brad Christian. In this discussion Brad shares how he selected the technologies on which to focus certification efforts, the story of getting laid off, how he determined working for a VAR (Value Added Reseller) was the right next move, and how we should be intentional in connecting with others in our industry.
Original Recording Date: 01-15-2024
Brad Christian is a returning guest and is currently a Solutions Specialist at Computacenter. If you missed part 1 of this discussion with Brad or are looking for links to previous discussions with him, check out Episode 263.
Topics – Making a Bet on Technologies for Certification and Focus, Decision to Work for a VAR, Getting Laid Off, Making Connections, Discussing Money, Leaving Leadership3:01 – Making a Bet on Technologies for Certification and Focus* We’ve spoken to previous guests about making a bet on technology, and it has to be timed appropriately with technology waves. How did Brad know where to place his bet, and what was the decision process he used? + Brad says right now in our industry is weird. The largest security company in the world is Microsoft. It’s going to be difficult for anyone to see the future clearly from here. + Not every bet you make to train on a specific technology pays off. + “When I haven’t known what to do…one thing is clear. Doubling down on fundamentals is not going to hurt you.” – Brad Christian, on where to place your emphasis + Brad thinks the demand for cloud native tools in on-premises environments will only increase. - With the rise of AI, Brad would advise people not to put intellectual property on a cloud, especially leaders. Security would dictate that data come back on-premises, but some of the hardware requirements are pretty crazy. Preparing for this is smart. - Security will be come more important, and the number of breaches will increase. Brad also thinks GDPR will come to the US. - Brad prefers the distributed system approach as opposed to complete centralization. Many workloads will be right for cloud, but there will be those that have to live on-premises. - There will be more storage companies that rise like WEKA. - Brad also says baking FinOps into all of this is an important bet. - Brad foresees more workload variability and continued growth in the edge space. - Brad’s advice for younger listeners or those relatively new to tech is to go and learn networking (get certified there). * The future will be more about things moving around. Storage will be easier to learn when you need it. - Learn about the different workloads which exist and how that is changing. - There are a lot of missing tools and processes when it comes to Kubernetes. - There is a lot of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt). - Brad also believes Red Hat isn’t going anywhere. + Brad shares the story of attending a Red Hat user group recently and being the youngest person there. - It would be wise for younger folks to get out and attend user groups like this. - VMUG attendance dwindled as a result of COVID and hasn’t bounced back to take one example. - Going to meetups is going to get more important moving forward! - If you only know cloud services like AWS today, Brad would encourage you to go and learn the on-premises technologies. - “Learn the hard things. If you’ve been taught to do everything the easy way at scale, learn why we built all that stuff in the first place.” – Brad Christian + John says making a bet on Red Hat isn’t so much a bet on a vendor but more of a bet on foundational Linux (even if some distributions have differences). - This is a solid choice but also something not a lot of people have in their toolbox (as evidenced by attending meetups and Brad being the youngest attendee). It’s also not a bleeding edge choice either. - Linux is used both in the cloud and in many mission critical systems on-premises too (think storage arrays that want a more lightweight operating system than Windows, for example). - Nick likes the back to basics approach. It’s back to basics but branching out into an area where Bad maybe hasn’t gone as deep previously. It’s in line with deepening breadth. - John mentioned Linux is the basis for Kubernetes as well. From there, Kubernetes is often the basis for AI workloads and tooling too. Making a technology choice like Brad’s takes into account where the industry is headed, the decisions organizations are making around these technologies, and also there is a lack of people who have the expertise. * Brad mentioned speaking to a startup that developed an appliance that delivered virtualization and Kubernetes to make it easier to operate and more secure to prevent developers from getting into the hardware layer. + Brad considered working for this startup, but after speaking to this company for several weeks, working for a VAR made more sense because it was more broad. That and there was a bad taste left in his mouth from the experience at the startup. + Kubernetes as a technology also isn’t that old, but if there’s something to come after it, it will be built on Linux!
12:59 – Decision to Work for a VAR* Brad worked at the startup for a little over a year (1 year, 3 months or so) before his team was let go. About a year of that was working as a cloud economist. + “So I didn’t even really get the masterclass in marketing that I had wanted. You know, I was heavily involved with it for a while, but I spent way more time learning finances.” – Brad Christian + When looking for his next choice after leaving the startup, Brad’s wife asked him where he was happiest. She pointed out that he loved working for a VAR. + At first that suggestion seemed like a step back to Brad, especially after working so hard to get the VCDX and later work for VMware. In his previous work at a VAR (Sigma Solutions, which later became Pivot), Brad was part of the delivery team that would stand up VMware environments for customers. - “I really worked hard to get my VCDX so I could move to what I thought was the next step, which was going to work for a big OEM.” – Brad Christian - All the effort paid off. Brad even wrote a book after joining VMware and had reached a comfortable financial level for his family. + Brad’s wife suggested he speak to some of the people he used to work with at VARs. Many of them Brad is still friends with today. + “There’s so much disruption and change going on. Who’s going to capitalize on all this disruption and change? The VARs are. Where are companies turning to for advice on designing solutions for what’s going on? They’re turning to VARs.” – Brad Christian + Brad started speaking to some of the VARs in the Dallas / Fort Worth metroplex and received a call from a former co-worker at Pivot. When asked if he had considered Computacenter, Brad had never heard of the company. + The company Brad worked for a while back, Pivot, was acquired by Fusion Storm and later bought by Computacenter in an effort to expand their reach into the Americas. - Computacenter was well versed in supply chain management, end-to-end capability management, and an international reach and scope that fascinated Brad. - They also had unobtanium levels of vendor certifications. Brad mentions VARs need to have a certain number of people on staff certified in a technology (hardware / software) to sell that technology solution. Computacenter had reached the highest levels of certifications in every category. - “What really sold it for me was…all the people that I had worked with 8 years before, 9 years before were still there…. That right there was what convinced me that this was the right company…finding out how many people had stayed with that organization through that many buyouts…hearing that people had stayed and being able to work with people I knew. So I walked in the door, and it felt like I was coming home…. It felt like I left my small town, went off to the big city, and now I’m back.” – Brad Christian, on the decision to move to Computacenter
17:34 – Getting Laid Off* Nick loves the clarity Brad’s wife provided in making the suggestion he consider moving to a VAR again. * Though Brad hinted at it earlier in the discussion, we clarify that he was indeed laid off from the startup before moving to Computacenter. + Brad was on a team of architects, and after a couple of them were let go, the rest of the team were let go, including him. + It was a random invite that showed up on Brad’s calendar that tipped him off it was coming. + Brad felt he had learned all he could from the startup but did learn a leadership lesson there. - Brad had only been in 2 meetings with his manager over the course of about a year. - For anyone who thinks this rare contact with your manager sounds like a good thing, it is not. Brad calls it out as extremely stressful. All he could do was try to make an impact in each meeting he attended, but he was not tied into the leadership chain. - “I cannot think of a meaner thing to do to somebody than be their manager and not meet with them at least once a month, once a quarter, something!” – Brad Christian, on interactions with your manager - When he was let go, Brad was not surprised a bit relieved in many ways upon being let go. * How can people pick themselves up after a layoff? + It’s a blow to the ego, and we cannot let it keep us down. + Americans often allow their job to define them. + “You’re not going to get a gold watch. That just doesn’t happen any more. What gives you longevity is your relationships in the industry.” – Brad Christian, quoting advice a leader once gave him + We have to get out and meet people outside our company, and Brad would advise we need to make sure we’re on LinkedIn. Try going to lunch with people you know in the industry once per month. + “Hang on to those relationships. And think about who you haven’t reached out to in a long time. Don’t call because you need something. Call to keep those relationships alive.” – Brad Christian + Upon being laid off, Brad put a post on LinkedIn about what had happened. He tells us every lead on a new job he received came from that post. + Brad applied online with Microsoft as a VCDX to work on their networking and security solutions but couldn’t get through any automated filters. It was a similar story trying to apply at other big companies like NVIDIA. He would recommend we not try to apply online with companies without knowing someone. + “It’s gonna be people that will help you get your next role. So don’t feel beat up by the situation. Just reach out and talk to folks. Take some time. Take a deep breath.” – Brad Christian + Brad thought he might retire from VMware, but that wasn’t the case. It’s critically important for us to stay in touch with others. + John loves the advice of not just calling when you need something. If given the opportunity to provide advice or a recommendation to others, we should do it. People will remember it. You’re putting positivity out there. + Two or three times per week, Brad likes to look on LinkedIn and see what is happening with people in his network. If someone was laid off that you know, reach out to them! - “The hardest thing about a layoff is not getting the new job…. It’s how psychologically torn up we get by it. You get really beat up.” – Brad Christian, on layoffs + Brad mentions many people have had a rough time through COVID-19 up to now. Our industry was impacted heavily by it. It’s up to us to help each other through the hard times. - Brad mentions he’s lost friends in the last several years. Some people just sort of disappeared. + We need to remind people of how smart they are if they have been impacted by a layoff. - Brad has received numerous calls from people he’s worked with or hired who have lost their self-confidence. - “And I think a lot of people just need to hear that…that, you know, they are good.” – Brad Christian - Pre-sales engineers for example require a level of confidence to go and do their job. - “I’m one of the people that loses energy from talking to folks, so the most precious thing I have to give people is my time and energy. So reach out to folks who need it, and give it to them.” – Brad Christian, on being an introvert yet investing in relationships with others
24:28 – Making Connections* “The more you give the more there is. The more positivity you put out there the more there is…and that’s how there’s a dividend.” – John White, on investing in people * There are herds of people who move between companies together. Since Brad isn’t really a joiner and finds it hard to join a group like this, he chooses to put out good karma. + “Every good thing that’s happened to me in my career came from just putting out good karma…. Just keep putting out good karma, and good things will come back to you.” – Brad Christian + Brad mentions taking over as leader of a VMware User Group was one of the smartest things he has done to date and has helped his career and earnings potential tremendously. Brad would tell you it was like another full time job, but he met so many great people that he still runs into in Dallas / Fort Worth. * Nick likes the idea of scheduling time to open up LinkedIn and check in on people based on this discussion. John feels inspired to create a systematic way to reach out to the connections he hasn’t connected with as frequently on LinkedIn. + Nick suggests John should write a script in NeoVim that he can run on a RedHat server to call the LinkedIn API to do what he wants. * Nick mentioned being asked by his wife at one point who he would call first if something happened and he lost his job. Though Nick had several names floating around in his head, he didn’t have the list prioritized and wasn’t sure who would be the first call. And yes, John was on that list! + This is a good thought exercise for anyone at any company. + Maybe we can also keep tabs on our company by staying close to the money and paying attention to how well the company is doing from a fiscal perspective. + Brad tells us the segmentation of the customers you serve matters as well. He would tell anyone in pre-sales to stay away from working with a single large corporation. One of the best ways to spread the risk is to work in a commercial segment with a number of smaller customers. + “That’s the other big thing when it comes to jobs and roles and all that…our egos get in the way.” – Brad Christian + Nick mentions there’s an unspoken caste system in pre-sales where people seem to believe working with big customers makes you the best of the best somehow. That is not true. There are talented people everywhere and at every company regardless of its size and what their role in tech is
29:51 – Discussing Money* Brad mentions talking about money is something we do not do in the United States. He’s spoken about this at VMUG meetings in the past. + “The only people that don’t want you talking about how much you make is leadership. We have this weird cultural thing in the US where we don’t want to talk about how much we make. It’s stupid.” – Brad Christian + Brad mentioned being shocked at the startup about how little people in pre-sales made, and the salary range discrepancies were significant between colleagues in the same role. It was because people didn’t talk to each other and didn’t know. + “When you talk to friends, talk about how much you’re making.” – Brad Christian, on sharing salary information with others + In our country (the US), we don’t seem to want to talk about how much we make. + It’s against the law for a manager to tell someone not to discuss how much they make. Reference the National Labor Relations Act. + “So before you go work somewhere, you should be able to walk into that conversation and know what to ask for.” – Brad Christian, on discussing salary information with others + John mentions there are a number of new laws requiring companies to post salaries / salary bands on job listings. Some states have even made it illegal to ask what you have made in the past because it’s a bias or anchor point. + “Just remember, good managers want to pay you what you’re worth.” – Brad Christian + A manager’s hands may be tied by HR when it comes to making the final decisions on salary. + Brad says it is really hard to justify a salary increase for someone not getting paid as much as everyone else on the team after they are hired (i.e. get them “caught up” to everyone else). + If your direct manager doesn’t want to pay you more, that person is the problem. In fact, Brad says a good manager should make suggestions and bring up some ways you can help justify pay grade increases. + Remember there are also pay bands based on your job level. Good managers don’t want to hire someone at the top of a pay band because there is no way to give you a raise. - Keeping someone at 10% below the top of their pay band is ideal. - It may be that you need to ask for lower pay in the next pay band up to have room for raises. - John mentioned in his role there is no personal benefit to pay someone less, and if there was, he would find a new place to work. Ideally you want everyone on your team being top performers and making a ton of money.
33:30 – Leaving Leadership* Brad mentions some advice on leaving leadership. He suggests debunking the myth that we need to climb a ladder to advance our career. + “You do not have to stop being an individual to advance your career…. There are ways to get promoted and to stay in your technical role and not become a leader. You don’t have to do it. Not everybody is comfortable doing leadership. And even if you do leadership, it is a skill of its own.” – Brad Christian + Brad mentions when he achieved staff engineer he was at the same level as a senior manager. We can stay technical without needing to become a people leader. + People leadership is a skill to be learned, and it is not for everyone. Brad tells us it is definitely political, whether you like it or not. + “So don’t feel like you’ve got to climb the ladder because no matter how high you go up the ladder, there’s more ladder. Even CEOs have a boss…shareholders.” – Brad Christian * Brad tells us if you become a manager it is not a big deal to go back to individual contributor. If anything, Brad feels like he is more skilled as a pre-sales engineer now after having been a manager. + Brad understands more about what is happening within the organization and the stress his boss has. + Brad mentions also having held a team lead role in the past. He now understands what his own team lead is going through. + “That makes me better at my job. If I make their life easier, they make my life easier, and we all have each others’ back. So don’t be afraid to go back down to individual contributor.” + While Brad may pursue management again someday, for now he is under less stress and having fun learning.
Mentioned in the Outro* If you’re looking for more resources on layoffs for yourself or someone else, check out Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with guest Leanne Elliott. It is the ultimate layoff resource and episode jumping off point. * Though our discussion of risk and proximity to money was titled toward pre-sales, think about it like this for technology operations: + Check out the mention of the Business Unit Information Security Officer or BISO in Episode 253 – Building Trust as an Interim Leader with Russell Swinney (2/2). Though you may not be a BISO, working in technology operations for a business unit likely means your salary is paid by the operating expense budget of the business unit in question. - The scope and focus of your impact is likely limited to this business unit, and if the business unit is not doing well financially, it could put you at risk. - Maybe it’s less risky to work for a centralized technology team that services many business units. Does this centralization have potential to take you further away from money? Maybe. But, regardless of your situation, look at each project to determine whether it helps one or more business units bring in more top line revenue, increase potential customers, decrease risk, or decrease cost. + Hiring managers have to take risks when hiring someone. What if the candidate is experienced in the right technologies but does not have experience at the scale needed to service the organization? - It could be a perceived risk from the hiring manager’s perspective. The risk is less if everyone else on the team has the experience at scale and can help the person onboard / learn the principles of scale. On a very small team it might be much more risky not to have someone with experience at scale. * The idea of decreasing risk can apply to certifications as well. + Brad took into account market conditions in our industry and where he believes things are going (trends he sees happening). It wasn’t just about something Brad liked but also what he felt would be relevant for years to come. + Try looking at job descriptions for the type of job you want in different areas, and speak to industry peers about what they are studying / learning and why? Understand their reasons for the decision.
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
This week in episode 263 we’re joined by returning guest Brad Christian. In this part 1 of our discussion with Brad you will hear why he chose to purse a role at a startup, what it was like learning FinOps as a cloud economist, thoughts on managers as both players and coaches, and Brad’s views on the benefits of technical certifications.
Original Recording Date: 01-15-2024
Topics – Welcoming Back Brad Christian, The Attraction of Startup Life, The Player Coach and Staying Technical, Becoming a Cloud Economist, Certifications Provide Structure2:47 – Welcoming Back Brad Christian* Brad Christian now works for Computacenter. + Brad is a repeat guest and was featured in the following episodes: - Episode 113 – A Series of Humbling Experiences with Brad Christian (1/2) - Episode 114 – Career Insight from the Manager Lens with Brad Christian (2/2) + Computacenter is one of the largest VARs (value added resellers) you may not have heard of. They started in EMEA and have grown into the US markets due to a large reach in supply chain. + Brad is located in Frisco, Texas and services customers in the TOLA (Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana) region. * Brad’s career revolved around the VMware ecosystem for a long time. He was the Dallas / Fort Worth VMware User Group leader for a long time and achieved the VCDX (VMware Certified Design Expert) certification at one point, which led him to working at VMware. + Most of Brad’s work at VMware was in the Networking and Security business unit. + Brad was promoted to front line manager at one point and did that for a while, being what he calls a player coach. + Brad started to feel technically stale and that it was time to move on. He tells us he will always have found memories of his time working at VMware. * Brad mentioned he has loved Linux his entire career, and at one point he was given the opportunity to work on Apache software at a startup. He had never done a startup and felt he needed to go for it.
5:10 – The Attraction of Startup Life* Brad felt like working for a startup was a gap in his resume to this point, but he was still nervous about it. Brad had worked for large customers in the past, for a VAR, and then at VMware up to the point of joining the startup. + Brad was going from a large, process driven organization into a startup. + “But it’s something I felt like I needed to do to just understand the way the world works.” – Brad Christian, on joining a startup * What does Brad wish he had asked about startup life before taking the role? + Many processes we might find in a larger organization do not exist. If you complain about a gap, be aware you may be asked to fill the gap you’ve just vocalized (i.e. a new task on your plate). + “The reason I went to this particular company…it wasn’t technical. It had to do with people.” – Brad Christian, on making the move to a startup + From a leadership perspective, Brad has experience as a front line manager / front line leader. He has never been interested in moving up to the director level (managing managers) or higher. + Brad shares a pattern he has seen where “herds” of people move from company to company normally centered around a specific leader. You may have seen this at a company that has a leadership change. A new leader brings in their people. - “I think it’s just a perfectly natural part of life that you want to work with people that you know and trust, that are going to have your back, so you can build out organizations. And when somebody’s built a dream team, you know, they like to keep the team together….” – Brad Christian - Brad has observed this pattern at multiple levels in different organizations. + Brad was invited to join one of these “herds” going to an Apache software company that was a startup with some proven leadership. + A leader at VMware asked Brad to come along with 7 others to go and build out the leadership organization for a marketing department at this startup. + Brad was invited based on his experience in field facing roles. He had built field teams and hired a number of SEs (solution engineers / sales engineers). + This role seemed like a next iteration for Brad. It was leadership, but it was about field enablement. + Brad suggests if you’ve been an SE or someone in sales, the natural career progression is going into leadership or into technical marketing. - “You’re crafting what the pitch is. You’re creating the decks. You’re doing the art of pre-sales, which is taking complicated subjects and breaking them down and making them simpler.” – Brad Christian, on the role of tech marketing + Brad was brought in to help with the employee onboarding process because at the startup, it was not great. - From here, Brad tells us things didn’t go very well. + The idea of going to the startup was pitched to Brad as being able to work with people he knew and trusted and who he knew were competent. - “It wasn’t just that I felt flattered or anything. It’s that I knew the people I’d be working with were smart…. I like to be around other smart people. Knowing around you’re going to be around top folks is awesome…and I knew that I would learn.” – Brad Christian + Brad did not have a marketing background (only what he learned from his field experience). Others going to the startup were well versed in marketing fundamentals like doing marketing research, creating marketing qualified leads, etc. - “There was a whole black art to that that I got really exposed to and really learned, which was very cool….stuff you couldn’t learn in school.” – Brad Christian, on learning marketing from his peers * John says we’ve spoken to people about various reasons they joined a company, but this might be the first time someone has knowing and trusting the people one would get to work with trumped everything else. According to Brad, there were too major things: + The religious disposition around Linux – Brad wanted to be involved in something surrounding an open source project a least once + The other thing was the people Brad would get to work with and learn from * We’ve spoken to other guests who have pointed out working for a larger company provides a perception of stability compared to a startup. But with the layoffs and happenings in the last few years in tech (including John being part of a 12,000 reduction in force at Google in early 2023 – listen to Episode 220 – John Got Fired for the full story), it is only a perception. + “There’s no certainty around working at an established company. There’s the illusion of that certainty though. And maybe that’s important for some people as long as they realize that’s all it is.” – John White + As a manager, Brad has been involved in layoffs. He mentions there is often very little careful planning, managers and directors have little to no control of who is impacted, and it is usually done on a spreadsheet. + John remembers his front line manager contacting him 2 months after being impacted (the manager mentioning they had just found out John was impacted). + There seems to be less differentiation in stability at a startup compared to a well established company than people might think. * On the flip side of the stability topic, startups may need processes and collateral to be built because it doesn’t exist like it might at a large company. + There were many things Brad already knew how to do (use Salesforce to build and align accounts to territories, hire and recruit new employees, train new employees, etc.) going into the startup, but he had not built all that from scratch. + “Being able to go into a place that maybe did not have things built out like they needed to be, knowing that I could come in there and I had a playbook and I that could quickly build the procedures and the structures…absolutely that was attractive and something I knew I could do quickly and be successful.” – Brad Christian, on the attractiveness of startup life
14:41 – The Player Coach and Staying Technical* Nick cites the above as architectural principles applied in a new area. + In Brad’s career he’s never wanted to stay in one area too long. It was his experience as an architect and a pre-sales leader that positioned him well for tech marketing. - Brad mentions being a manager / leader is absolutely a skill. + “Being in tech marketing meant that I could take all these things I knew how to do as a pre-sales leader and create stuff from the next level up.” – Brad Christian, on relatable experience * Brad was a manager at VMware for about 7 years, and in that role it is challenging to stay technical. + The number of meetings you’re involved in as a manager can make it difficult to spend time doing hands-on-labs, for example. + Managers are pulled in many directions and often times putting out fires. + Brad says managers look good because of what their people are doing. + “I considered it my job to make my folks look really good, to promote what they were doing.” – Brad Christian, on being a manager + Brad has managed teams of about 13 direct reports consistently during his time as a manager. He feels it was a high compliment that none of his former team were laid off when VMware was acquired. - Brad built teams around products such as Cloud Foundation, vSAN, and focused on networking and security while serving as a manager at VMware. All - Part of Brad’s skill as a leader was “picking the right folks and enabling them to succeed.” + Brad mentioned the servant leader (what he considers his management style / disposition) doesn’t have the time a leader who is tooting their own horn would have. * In Brad’s time as a manager he was a player coach. + It’s less about metrics and more about attitude. Brad gives the example of early football teams where the quarterback would also serve as the coach. + “Having somebody who is in there as the quarterback who hands off the ball…to me that’s what a player coach is. You are watching what’s happening in the field. You are watching, and you’re seeing where the holes are. You are seeing where the gaps are, and you’re filling them.” – Brad Christian + The player coach is also a player. In pre-sales, that means going to meet with customers. - Brad really enjoys whiteboarding and discovering customer business problems, especially when a customer realizes the solution to their problem will save time or improve what they are doing. - A player coach can be active in engaging with customers in this way, but once you reach a certain number of direct reports, it prevents you from going into the field. Brad says then you’re no longer a player coach because you are no longer a player. + “It’s not about responsibilities on paper. It’s the fact that you’re actually out there participating in the activity that the organization is busy doing.” – Brad Christian, on being a player coach - When Brad’s responsibilities become so much that he can no longer be a player, in his mind it’s time to change roles. + John says this really rings true along with his experience as a first time pre-sales manager and asks about what Brad meant about staying technical. Was that about product level knowledge or technical skills involved in managing people? - Staying technical in the product you’re focused on isn’t too hard. You can understand the roadmap and really have no choice but to know it well. - When Brad says technical, he means things happening in real businesses and the concerns which need to be addressed. * Brad was a customer for many years before moving into pre-sales, and he feels this experience made him better positioned to succeed in pre-sales. * This experience as customer allows a level of relatability with customers which people who went into sales out of college likely will not have. * “When I say technical, that’s what I mean…keeping your finger on the pulse of what’s happening in the industry.” – Brad Christian - John mentions if you didn’t experience logging into individual consoles to manage things and do everything now with Ansible or Terraform, you may have lost a level of technical relatability. That’s one example that goes along with our discussion. * Brad mentions cloud as crippling a generation of engineers in not experiencing earlier days of building it. He’s seen numerous folks who don’t know networking as well as they should, for example. * Being technical isn’t only about a depth in one area. It’s about technical breadth according to Brad.
23:39 – Becoming a Cloud Economist* There were a number of things Brad already knew how to do for field enablement purposes going into the startup. * A couple of months into working for the startup, the leader who encouraged Brad to join the startup left the company. + Brad has kids and remained committed to doing the best he could at the startup despite that leader’s departure. + Over the next several months almost all the others who had followed the above leader to the startup also left the company. + “If I ever do go join a group of people that I respect, I’m going to make sure that they have kids. The attitude is a lot different when you’ve got mouths to feed.” – Brad Christian, on a lesson learned from joining the startup + John mentions it’s important to think about the constraints other people have (family and age of kids, financial constraints, etc.). * In the aftermath of all of the above people leaving, the company changed Brad’s role and made him a cloud economist. + COGS = cost of goods sold + Any company providing a SaaS service has costs they incur as a result of offering that service (cloud infrastructure, HR costs, other product costs, etc.). The company would then add margin to this cost and sell the product. Brad says understanding COGS is extremely difficult. + If you’re running a service in AWS, for example, the rates can change and effect the rate you then charge your customers. It can also cause the SaaS provider to lose money on providing their own service to customers! + Brad needed to understand the economics of all this and started working with some accountants on staff at his company. + “I knew at a technical level how clouds worked back in the day. It wasn’t until I got the cloud economics hat on and started understanding the money involved with it.” – Brad Christian, on understanding how cloud works in his new role in cloud economics - Brad had to learn the nuances of import and export control, whether US companies could actually offer a SaaS service in specific companies (like Brazil, as one example), etc. + At first Brad didn’t want to have to talk about money all the time, but he decided to dig deep and discovered FinOps. - Brad got certified in the discipline of FinOps from the FinOps Foundation and read the book Cloud FinOps - “I have a feeling FinOps will be more and more important in our industry as time goes by.” – Brad Christian - Brad says the lift to learn FinOps is not hard for those who have worked in IT. The difficulty comes in most of us not wanting to talk about money or budgets. - Getting certified in FinOps can be valuable to anyone in IT. You do not need to work in sales or SaaS for a tech vendor to gain value from it. Note that there are several flavors of the FinOps certifications available. - Brad highly recommends reading the Cloud FinOps book and reading the FinOps Foundation website. You can take courses or just take the exam. - Brad learned from the book that Target was one of the first companies who really got FinOps working well. - The US federal government’s OPM (Office of Personnel Management) has a system in place to evaluate any SaaS offerings before they are purchased. This ensures the provider of the SaaS service is adhering top FinOps principles and can provide cost transparency to engineering teams. If the federal government can do this as the largest company in the world, likely your organization can do it too. - Nick mentions there are technical aspects to learning FinOps and that we should not be fearful of not being technical if we go and learn it. - Brad says it has long been a challenge for developers to really understand how making a change will impact the bottom line at a company. It’s very hard to show that certain activities moved the needle. Brad says getting FinOps in place for cloud cost containment or other cost containment is a powerful tool which can help justify salaries and head count. - “I think if you’re a manager and you’re worried about keeping your team fully staffed and not losing head count, you should be doing FinOps.” – Brad Christian - John references the Technology-as-a-Service Playbook: How to Grow a Profitable Subscription by Thomas Lah as another helpful resource. - John says FinOps could be another tool in the toolbox to justify projects / a team’s existence and show increases in productivity. * Brad has received numerous calls from people he’s managed or mentored asking for advice. + The term unicorn is something we apply to people who are technical and have people skills. People Brad hired for pre-sales roles are those he considers unicorns. + Brad would ask people how close they were to money. + “If you are tied to profit, the closer you are to that dollar symbol the better off you are when it comes to surviving cuts.” – Brad Christian + Brad tells the story of one of the most talented pre-sales engineers he’s worked with who was let go because the person was not tied to any future company revenue. + John says it’s a fascinating idea to measure your career using the metrics that will be important in the future. It’s about potential to do something important in the future perhaps more than what you have already accomplished (like the incoming pipeline or lack thereof for someone in sales). - John gives the example of being tied to a greenfield sales territory during his time at Google. The work was challenging, but the pipeline present in new customer accounts might not be a representation of how good someone is (if that’s the only metric).
35:56 – Certifications Provide Structure* After his time pursuing FinOps, everyone else on Brad’s team at the startup was let go, and he was the last man standing before also getting laid off. After taking the role at the VAR where he is now, Brad needed some goals stepping into it besides just sales goals. + As a starting point, Brad wanted to look at what would be most useful over the next few years for him to study and learn. + “Why are certifications good? They are good for me because I need structure.” – Brad Christian + Brad says he is obsessed withNeovim. This comes from roots in Vim, a text editor often used in many UNIX / Linux systems. - Brad follows Takuya Masumaya, also knows as devaslife and his YouTube Channel. This person uses Neovim to create and build software. - Brad has always wanted to be expert level using vim. He was decent at it from the Linux command line, but now Brad uses Neovim to write code, take notes, and do all kinds of things. - Brad also follows another YouTuber called ThePrimeagen who is a developer at Netflix. - Brad suggests we don’t need to use VSCode to write code but should instead adopt Neovim. The goal is to never need to touch the mouse and to save unneeded wrist motions. + After adopting Neovim, Brad found he would get obsessed with his setup and configuration to the point where he would lose focus. Certifications help him hold that focus. - Having a certification blueprint helps give you a syllabus or course of study. - Brad says the Red Hat certification probably isn’t a requirement for his job, but he has always wanted to achieve the Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE). - The exam for RHCE is a live lab exam, and Brad has always enjoyed those types of exams. - “It’ll force me to stretch myself out of my comfort zone, do some things I probably wouldn’t, and just have more breadth.” – Brad Christian, on pursuing a Red Hat certification - There isn’t a VCDX level certification equivalent on the Red Hat side, but there is an architect level. Brad plans to pursue this also. - Brad also wants to work on the Certified Kubernetes Administrator (CKA) line of exams as well. - “But the very first thing I did when I started the new job was ask for a Pluralsight subscription.” – Brad Christian * How do you link certifications back to revenue? + Brad says you can’t link it to revenue because it is a cost center and one of the prices of doing business.
Mentioned in the Outro* Following someone to another company does not protect you if they leave the company. What will do you when they leave, and do you have a plan for when that happens? It’s worth considering before making a job decision. * It’s always possible that our roles and responsibilities could shift, regardless of where we work. It’s not just for startups. + For more stories on leaning into these kinds of changes, check out Episode 210 – A Collection of Ambiguous Experiments with Shailvi Wakhlu (1/2). + A shift like these could be an opportunity we never saw coming. * The description of the player coach here is really interesting. Being the coach and the player is about being involved in what individual contributors are doing in more of a collaborative way. + Make sure as a player coach that you give your team members a chance to shine. Check out Episode 51 and Episode 52 for more about learning this lesson the hard way. * Brad’s certification choices involved knowledge of how he worked best and what motivated him, the kind of exams he did well on, and a willingness to lean in and learn new things to sharpen technical skills. + More on the decision process
Contact the Hosts* The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. + E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com + DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney + Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman + Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
Welcome to episode 240 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_) – two technology professionals with backgrounds in IT Operations and Sales Engineering on a mission to help others accelerate career progression and increase job satisfaction by bringing listeners the advice we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of a discussion with Kenneth Ellington, detailing his work as a mentor and coach to students at Ellington Cyber Academy (ECA). We’ll discuss different specializations in cybersecurity and some popular stereotypes, get some perspective on what Kenneth has learned as a business owner, and hear his future vision for ECA.
Original Recording Date: 07-03-2023
Kenneth Ellington is a Senior Cybersecurity Consultant specializing in SIEM and SOAR technologies. He is also the owner and founder of Ellington Cyber Academy (ECA). If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Kenneth, you can find it in Episode 239.
Topics – Coach and Mentor, Cybersecurity Certifications and Specific Roles, The Business Owner’s Blind Spots, What’s Next and Parting Thoughts3:14 – Coach and Mentor* Was the mentoring and coaching part of Kenneth’s business something that was surprising given his experience as an instructor or expected? + Kenneth says the two play hand in hand with one another. + Normally if people want 1-1 coaching after the program ends, there is a cost. + When you’re part of the program, Kenneth is there to help you with any questions or concerns because he knows it’s challenging do the work. + Kenneth says it can be difficult when you’re getting rejected for jobs over and over again. He’s been there and wants to help his students get through the tough times. + Kenneth tells the story of spending all his money to buy a suit for an interview that was cancelled the day before it happened. + “It’s hard to see the light, when you’re crawling through the mud, when you’re down in the trenches. So it’s my job to tell them, ‘keep going. It does end. Trust me….I can see it. I’m not in the mud anymore.’ That’s one of the biggest things to get across to my students.” – Kenneth Ellington + John mentions there is a difference between knowing intellectually that you can / will break through and feeling it emotionally. + Kenneth agrees and says people have to trust in the process. There will be times when no one calls you back after an interview and times when you don’t get interviews. - This kind of experience can lead to self-doubt. - “If you do these steps over and over again, and you keep tweaking it until the desired result, it will work. That’s what I’m there for.” – Kenneth Ellington, on trusting in the process to eventually produce outcomes - The time it takes for people to get a job who go through a program can vary based on experience coming into the program and how well they understand the concepts (i.e. might take more time and work to refine skills and cement concepts). - People may need help in areas like interview skills / improving their resume to help get a job, or it could be getting a promotion that someone wants. It depends on what the person going through the program wants. + Nick asks if Kenneth sees any kind of peaks and valleys with people going through the program (i.e. getting a job / promotion and then hitting impostor syndrome)? - Kenneth says he doesn’t see this with his students after finishing the program. ECA partners with managers from different companies like AWS and Accenture and partners his students up with those managers. This usually helps students understand what they are going through is a process that takes time. - It’s the beginning of the program when the impostor syndrome sets in because people didn’t expect going through the program would be difficult. Even though people are told the program will be hard they cannot actually experience the difficulty until they go through it. - People will get into the capstone presentation and say things like they haven’t previously done a presentation that difficult. It creates nervousness and anxiety because the presentation is being made to managers who work in cybersecurity. - The first capstone presentation can be a low point when people begin to doubt. And generally they gain confidence after that. - When students continue to not do well on a capstone presentation it is likely they did not properly prepare. If students do not do well on a capstone, Kenneth will sit down with the person to provide some feedback on where their presentation fell short, and he helps them understand what they can do to improve (creating a “roadmap”). - Kenneth shares that he is a coach and not a player. - “I’ve given you all the tools to be successful. We’ve repped it out over and over again in practice, but when it’s game time, it’s actually on you to produce and execute. That’s how I’ve always seen it.” – Kenneth Ellington, on his role as a coach for students. - Kenneth tells students to treat the capstone presentations like a job interview (because it definitely is) and prepare accordingly. - Kenneth has presented to Fortune 20 companies and can tell when people are not taking the capstone presentation seriously (as can the managers listening). There have been times when people did not prepare, and it was embarrassing and frustrating. - “You give them all the tools to be successful, and they don’t always do it.” – Kenneth Ellington - Kenneth is there to help students succeed, but they have to do the work. When they don’t prepare or take things seriously it reflects poorly on him as the owner of ECA. Kenneth takes pride in his name and expects people in the program to take pride in theirs.
10:38 – Cybersecurity Certifications and Specific Roles* When students come out of the program and are ready to get a job, what other things should they consider when progressing in a cybersecurity career? + John references certifications as one way and cites the CISSP – Certified Information Systems Security Professional. Kenneth does not have this certification but has heard this is a hard one to obtain. + Kenneth tends to focus on Microsoft and Splunk certifications since they are the ones most needed for the technology stacks he works with as part of his day job. + As part of the ECA program students are given the material for and able to sit for the Splunk Core Certified User and Splunk Core Certified Power User exams. These are some of the front line certifications for those who seek to pursue a security analyst position. * Do security and compliance mandates within organizations come from under a CISO (Chief Information Security Officer)? + Organizations may do this differently from what Kenneth has seen (depends on organizational structure). + Kenneth feels the CISO should report directly to the CEO of the company, but he’s seen CISOs report to a CIO or CTO for example. + Kenneth sees many organizations with silo environments where information gets stuck in one area. It may not be clear what everyone on a team does, and people may not have the time or knowledge to document things to account for people leaving. - This creates a lot of knowledge gaps and can prove difficult when trying to replace senior engineers who leave the company. Kenneth has seen this lead to expensive problems – large backlog for the team, existing members burning out, and someone in a high position getting the blame. + John stresses the idea of having good people and not being totally reliant on those people. - There is the idea of 20% art in a job role that requires experience, and others might be able to get 80% up to speed by reading all the documentation. But if an organization doesn’t have the documentation to allow people getting up to at least 80% ready, it’s a bad place to be. * Even though cybersecurity is one part of technology, the discipline of cybersecurity is still quite broad. How do people determine their specialty or area of focus based on skills and interests? + Kenneth says many people who come to him about getting into cybersecurity are interested in being an ethical hacker. + John has seen this behavior quite a bit. Kenneth tells us people often times do not know what it takes to become an ethical hacker. + Kenneth tells us if you want to be a penetration tester (or part of a red team), you should be prepared to write a book each time you perform a test / exploit. - “You have to document step-by-step every action you did over the past month thoroughly…word for word…step-by-step. And it takes 200 pages sometime to write that down.” – Kenneth Ellington, on the documentation required for penetration testers - Kenneth doesn’t think writing a book every time he does his job sounds fun. He has no desire to teach red teaming or to do it. - We see this role glorified on television, and it’s become somewhat of a stereotype. Kenneth gets asked all the time if he’s a hacker because he’s in cybersecurity. - “They think I sit with my hoodie up in my basement (even though I live in an apartment) and just type away on my keyboard, eat pizza, and drink Mt. Dew (even though Mt. Dev is disgusting). They think that’s what I do, and I don’t do any of that at all.” – Kenneth Ellington, on the stereotypes put on people in cybersecurity - Kenneth says many people may not have the temperament for this kind of work (penetration testing / red teaming) or don’t want to write that much. + Kenneth encourages people to research what they think they might want to do in cybersecurity, play around with it (and some of the technologies used in it), and then come back and talk to him. - After some research, people often come back saying they don’t want to do ethical hacking and that they would rather be a security engineer or SOC (security operations center) analyst or a GRC (governance, risk, and compliance) analyst. Kenneth can help people with those types of roles. - A SOC analyst is like the first line of defense in security operations (tier 1 / tier 2). Once an alert fires in an environment, it would be your responsibility to respond to that alert (i.e. a user clicks a phishing link and gets credentials compromised). * There are different tools one could use here like Carbon Black, Splunk / Splunk ES, Microsoft Defender, Microsoft Cloud, etc. (depends on your company and what tools they use). - A security engineer will often times build some of these toolsets or possibly design and engineer them. * Maybe you manage the Splunk platform and handle back end processes for it for example. XSOAR (Cybersecurity Orchestration, Automation, and Response) may also fall under your purview. - A GRC analyst stands for governance, risk, and compliance. * These personnel would put many of the policies in place within an organization. They would need to be aware of regulatory practices that are related to NIST, FedRAMP, MITRE. - None of the above that Kenneth mentioned require you to eat pizza, wear a hoodie, and drink Mt. Dew.
18:52- The Business Owner’s Blind Spots* In addition to what Kenneth mentioned about getting a sales and marketing coach for his business, were there any blind spots he didn’t see coming when he began as a business owner? + Kenneth says owning a business is a lot of work. He knew it was going to be a lot. + “Someone can tell you, ‘hey, climb this mountain.’ You know it’s hard, but until you actually do it you don’t really understand how hard it is.” – Kenneth Ellington on knowing what he was getting into as a business owner + Kenneth says the first month was completely insane, and he wondered to himself how people do it who are business owners. Since that time, many processes have been simplified so the company can scale and make things repeatable. + Kenneth thinks the business coach (Valencia) is the biggest thing he wishes he would have brought on earlier. + Kenneth feels the company has done well for being in business for 13-14 months at the time of this recording, helping at about 9 people get new jobs during this time. * How can people start a business and keep it from conflicting with their day job? + Kenneth would advise checking with your company’s HR department and ensuring they are ok with it. + If the company doesn’t have an issue with it, start small (minimal money investment) to test your idea and prove the concept. You can get a free landing page on Carrd. - You may have to give out advice for free to start. If people like it ask them for testimonials. Then you can look at starting to charge. - If charging for advice / services works, you could do some coaching sessions, but continue to build and scale from there. - If the above works, begin to automate processes and maybe hire a virtual assistant if you need it. - The steps here can take years, not just weeks and months! + “The biggest way to be successful is just to be consistent People will give up pretty quickly, so if you’re serious about continually improving processes and techniques over years, again not months or days, then you’ll outlast most other people.” – Kenneth Ellington, on success of a business over time - In some ways it’s a time game. + Frequent professional networking and going to events is important to build trust and connection with others. When people see you consistently over time they become more comfortable investing in you and what you’re doing. * How has Kenneth found ways to balance the work he does during the day with his training business? Is there a way to balance it all? + Prioritization is extremely important. Kenneth has determine the things he does and does not care about as a business owner. If he doesn’t care as much about it, he will pay someone to do it or automate it away. + Kenneth does boxing and kickboxing to keep himself mentally sane and in good shape. He can kick a bag as hard as he wants and practice his technique. + “Your physical and mental health is everything. If you don’t have that you will not be successful in business….If you can’t take care of yourself, you can’t take care of anyone else.” – Kenneth Ellington + Meditation, prayer, eating right, going outside, exercising, and getting enough sleep are all important. + Kenneth also likes to travel when he gets the chance to do so. He also watches anime and likes to cook in addition to working out 5 times per week. - Nick mentions he needs to get back to working out regularly. - Kenneth has been kickboxing for 20 months now and finds it to be second nature to just go and do it. At first he was scared and a little afraid of looking silly, and it was a task to get himself ready. But over time it’s become a part of his life. - Kenneth is modelling good behavior for all of us in making the time to stay healthy mentally and physically!
24:26 – What’s Next and Parting Thoughts* How does Kenneth decide what’s next in his career?
+ Kenneth has a number of goals. One of them is to get ECA to the point where it can be a full time job.
- In this future state, Kenneth would like to travel to different conferences and events for different companies. He would like to do trainings for different companies as well.
- The ultimate goal for ECA is to be a better alternative to a master’s degree in cybersecurity.
* Kenneth has seen people spend a ton of money for a degree but get no practical experience out of a master’s like this (which shows during interviews in a negative way with potential employers).
* Ideally Kenneth and team would bring in expert instructors from different niche areas like threat intelligence / vulnerability management to teach for 1-2 months of a year long program and provide hands-on experience to students.
* Kenneth plans to include a way to gain experience doing professional networking in this program as well to help bridge the gap in what colleges provide people.
- Kenneth would also like to expand into Africa. His family is from Jamaica, and it would be extremely meaningful to bring back technology there based on his heritage.
* Many countries in Africa don’t have the right infrastructure, so Kenneth is working through various partnerships to help in this area.
+ John has had an open task to connect with BLKMEN IN TECH for several years now, and the discussion with Kenneth has inspired him to get involved in a local chapter.
- John also says he needs to work on building a habit to get back on his spin bike at home consistently.
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If you want to follow up on this conversation with Kenneth…
- You can follow Ellington Cyber Academy or follow Kenneth and send him a message on LinkedIn.
- Follow Kenneth on Twitter @KennethElling31 or YouTube @EllingtonCyberAcademy.
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Mentioned in the outro
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We don’t do a great job expecting things to be hard, and often times we do not understand the way in which it will be hard until we experience it. Don’t be afraid to ask for help! And we have to decide whether we will actually accept the help.
- If you want to learn more about cybersecurity job requirements, look on LinkedIn to get an idea of the requirements hiring managers want. You might need to talk to someone like Kenneth or do an informational discussion with a hiring manager like Mike Wood did in Episode 169.
- For more stories of people who went into cybersecurity, go back and listen to
- Episode 133 – Forensics and the Boredom of Peacetime with Donovan Farrow (1/2)
- Episode 134 – Pass down Your Legacy with Donovan Farrow (2/2)
- Episode 180 – Hired on the Spot with Bill Kindle (1/3)
- Episode 181 – Crossing the Burnout Fault Line with Bill Kindle (2/3)
- Episode 182 – Security from the System Administrator’s Lens with Bill Kindle (3/3)
- Business owners have control of ways to give back or make an impact to their customer base and the greater world.
- Do you know how the company you work for is making an impact? Do some research to make sure you understand, or ask someone (your manager or others). Make suggestions on how the company can make greater impacts.
- If no one has ever helped connect the dots on how you’re contributing to the way your company makes an impact, talk with your manager.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 239 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_) – two technology professionals with backgrounds in IT Operations and Sales Engineering on a mission to help others accelerate career progression and increase job satisfaction by bringing listeners the advice we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of a discussion with Kenneth Ellington, detailing how he got into cybersecurity, what prompted him to become an instructor, some of the gaps in professional networking skills for college students and what can be done about it, and how Kenneth encourages people to invest in themselves as a business owner of Ellington Cyber Academy.
Original Recording Date: 07-03-2023
Topics – Meet Kenneth Ellington, A Step into Cybersecurity, Tell People What You Want, Internships and Community Involvement, Building Courses and Learning to Network, The Life of an Instructor, Overcoming Objections to Self-Investment, A Mindset Coach2:43 – Meet Kenneth Ellington* By day, Kenneth Ellington is a Senior Cybersecurity Consultant specializing in SIEM and SOAR technologies such as Splunk, QRadar, Microsoft Sentinel, or other solutions in the blue team realm. Kenneth designs solutions for various clients based on their needs. * When he was younger, Kenneth had no interest in technology. He enjoyed cooking during his high school years. + Kenneth’s father has been a software engineer for many years and pushed Kenneth and his brother to get into technology as a career. + Kenneth’s father made him do a code academy course over the summer during his middle school years, and Kenneth didn’t like it at all. Kenneth knew at that time that software engineering was NOT something he wanted to do. * After graduating high school, Kenneth began college coursework focused in business administration which later became business management at the University of South Florida (USF). + Around the time of his junior year, Kenneth focused on IT (information technology) for greater job prospects after some advice from his father.
4:31 – A Step into Cybersecurity* Kenneth worked in the deli at Publix Supermarket throughout his time at USF. + Today, Kenneth tells his students at Ellington Cyber Academy (more on how he got there later) to “make sure people know what you want to do so they’re able to speak on your behalf when you’re not inside the room.” + Kenneth told all of his managers at Publix that he wanted to focus on IT as a career. - In one particular instance, the Publix store manager asked Kenneth if he wanted to meet the director of cybersecurity for Publix as part of this director’s visit to the store. Kenneth said yes! - Kenneth got to have a 1-1 meeting with Rick (the cybersecurity director who visited). Before this meeting Kenneth had no idea what cybersecurity was or that Publix even did it. - During this meeting, Rick encouraged Kenneth to apply for an internship in cybersecurity the following year. Rick also gave Kenneth a list of things to study to give him the best chance of getting into the internship, including…courses to take, some conferences to attend, and the chance to shadow members of the cybersecurity team for a couple of days. - After doing everything on the list from Rick, Kenneth interviewed with the cybersecurity team at Publix in March and ended up getting the job. * Back then Kenneth had no idea what he was doing (around 2018). He had heard about cybersecurity in the news but didn’t really understand what the job was. The way a career in cybersecurity was described by Rick sounded really cool to Kenneth. In addition to that Kenneth had wanted to work at Publix corporate for some time. + Kenneth thinks Rick saw his passion and his drive early on. + Kenneth also tells us that Rick was the type of person who wanted what was best long term for Kenneth, even if it would not be at Publix. + The internship in which Kenneth participated was 3-4 months. + Nick loves the fact that Kenneth was given a training plan to prepare him for getting into the internship. It reminds him of something similar our guest Chris Williams did for a person wanting to be a cloud engineer (mentioned in Episode 231). + “I literally started the minute I got off work. I was very excited.” – Kenneth Ellington, on working through the list of recommendations a cybersecurity leader encouraged him to take to get into the industry * Some of the specific recommendations for Kenneth were… + In Tampa, where Kenneth grew up, there are two major cybersecurity conferences. Kenneth was encouraged to attend both, which he did. - BSides Tampa – you can also follow the page on LinkedIn - The Florida Center for Cybersecurity is in Tampa, and they also host a conference. + Kenneth was also encouraged to study for and obtain the Splunk Core Certified User certification or at least do a fundamentals training. + Study for and obtain a Security+ certification + “The last part was for me to shadow his team. That was when it really clicked for me. I shadowed his team like 4 months after we met, and after that day, I’m like ‘ok, I’m going to work here. I’m going to make it happen.’ That’s what really kind of sold me.” – Kenneth Ellington, on shadowing a cybersecurity team and making a conscious choice to pursue it as a career * Nick likes the fact that Kenneth’s boss from the deli made that connection for him. Kenneth thinks there is no way he would have otherwise met Rick (the cybersecurity leader who encouraged him to pursue the internship). + “All of the opportunities I’ve gotten in my life, in my career, have been because of that. I’ve always let people know what I’m doing and what I’m interested in.” – Kenneth Ellington
9:28 – Tell People What You Want* John tells us Kenneth’s story holds the important lesson that people have to know what you want to do with your career. Kenneth’s manager apart from the mention of Kenneth’s desire to pursue technology likely saw an otherwise good / excellent deli employee. His manager may have encouraged him to pursue some other form of advancement. + Kenneth did not want to be a deli clerk forever and took every opportunity he could to level up. + Kenneth worked 2 jobs while in college. He was sometimes so tired he would sleep in his car (i.e. not safe to drive back home). Listen to Kenneth describe the average day’s schedule. + Kenneth’s parents would worry that he was working too hard. Kenneth says looking back that he would not change a thing in his experiences (i.e. the sacrifice was worth it). + Now, Kenneth can afford to get his car fixed when someone advises it. Five years ago he could not. * On the day Kenneth met Rick, Rick was shadowing the store to work a few hours in each department so see what they did. Kenneth appreciates that Rick made the choice to take time to talk to him on that fateful day. + Rick had been with the company about 4 years at this point. Working the front lines like this (as Rick did) on a rotation is a great way not to lose touch with what happens on the front lines.
12:41 – Internships and Community Involvement* Are internships only for those early in a career, or are they for anyone of any age who might want to gain experience and skills? + When Kenneth did the internship at Publix, most interns were in their early twenties. To his knowledge they (Publix) were looking for people in college. + Internships across different companies vary in terms of the requirements to get in. Some companies, for example, have apprenticeships. * Kenneth tells us when he decided to get into cybersecurity he was completely focused on making it happen, letting nothing get in his way. + During the first two years of college, Kenneth wasn’t quite sure what he wanted to do. He took college seriously but didn’t have a real passion for the subject matter until he found cybersecurity. + Kenneth tells us it was challenging during the years of complete focus. Not everyone understood what he was doing or why, and some were not there to support him through it. + Kenneth made a lot of new friends with a growth mindset that he’s still friends with to this day. His advice for his students and for listeners is the importance of building relationships with people who care about you and want to see you succeed beyond just being in a specific fieldp. + Every decision Kenneth made revolved around cybersecurity once he made his mind up about pursuing it. This includes other internships he pursued in the discipline, how he spent his time outside of school, etc. + After the internship, Kenneth eventually left Publix. * Not wanting to lose what he had learned from the cybersecurity internship, Kenneth joined Blacks in Cybersecurity, a minority-owned firm that helps people of color get into cybersecurity through conferences, networking, and career development. He also acted as a campus ambassador for the group. + This experience allowed Kenneth to make a number of professional connections in cybersecurity. It was an extremely positive community, which was very important to Kenneth, who still does training for the organization to this day. + “There’s not a lot of people who look like me in cybersecurity.” – Kenneth Ellington, on the value of joining Blacks in Cybersecurity and its mission
15:39 – Building Courses and Learning to Network* Kenneth developed the Splunk course work for Blacks in Cybersecurity. * When recounting his college graduation experience in 2020, Kenneth tells us it was pretty awful (all classes virtual for his last semester, didn’t get to walk across the stage at a ceremony or see classmates and teachers for 1.5 years, etc.). * During the pandemic when everything was remote (in July 2020), Kenneth got a job offer from DTCC (Depository Trust and Clearing Corporation). There was a 2-month waiting period between graduation and getting the job during which Kenneth was stuck at home. + During this time between graduation and starting his new job, the founder of Blacks in Cybersecurity, Michaela Barnett, called Kenneth to ask him to develop a Splunk training for the organization. + Kenneth had to develop all the coursework from scratch including training modules, labs, and articles for further study. He did this for free because someone asked him to do it. + Even though Kenneth didn’t think the course was that good, everyone loved it. He received great feedback and was told he was a good teacher. + Kenneth continued to teach courses for Blacks in Cybersecurity for about 1.5 years, repeating the class every 4-6 months and continuing to get good feedback. + During this time, someone told Kenneth they would pay him for this course if he were to start charging for it. This is where the idea for ECA (Ellington Cyber Academy, the business Kenneth owns, began. * In joining the Blacks in Cybersecurity community, Kenneth was constantly mindful of how he could help others. + Many people think of relationships as transactional. Kenneth gives the example of someone reaching out on LinkedIn asking for you to help them get a job without even building a relationship with you first. + “People don’t know how to network right. We’re not buying a Happy Meal from McDonald’s. We’re trying to build a relationship. So treat it as such. I don’t think college always does a proper job of that.” – Kenneth Ellington, on professional networking - Kenneth mentions the emphasis placed on networking with students of ECA. + Kenneth mentions he was that young college student who didn’t know how to network. He would often ask people for jobs, and they would say no because they didn’t know anything about him (his work, his work ethic, etc.). It’s something he had to learn. - Once he became part of Blacks in Cybersecurity, Kenneth tried to impart some of this knowledge into younger students and encourage them to practice – how to properly network, how to run an event, how to build connections, how to talk to someone, etc. There will be trial and error at first. - Kenneth mentions there was a lot of rejection, and there was a conflict between people wanting candidates with some experience and candidates like Kenneth who needed an opportunity to gain experience. + John mentions meeting Nick at a community group. In these settings you start to interact with people who have more experience than you and eventually become the person who can share some of the patterns you’ve seen when people ask the same question. + John agrees college doesn’t do a great job of teaching people how to network. There are many things to learn in college, and the social aspect may not be a focus. - Networking is a skill and is critical to your career trajectory. There’s no real coursework on how to do it. John isn’t sure what the solution is other than talking with people 1-1 about it or people writing blogs / making videos / developing courses on it. - “We would have events, but they never taught us how to actually talk to people. So people walk in a room, and we’re like ‘what are we supposed to do?’ And we’re standing around really awkward.” – Kenneth Ellington, on trying to learn how to network with others while in college - John mentions he was once given the advice to bring 50 copies of his resume and that he should hand it to people he meets. + Nick suggests we should bring up with others we meet the things we’re working on as well as our interests. People may offer to help us as a result of sharing this without even being asked. - Kenneth says people have a fear of possibly being laughed at, and he tells people “the worst thing that’s going to happen is you won’t get a response.” - “Being ok with rejection takes a lot, certainly a lot of time and a lot of maturity to get over.” – Kenneth Ellington, on being rejected on LinkedIn / not getting a response - We see people being negative on social media platforms such as LinkedIn, but Kenneth would encourage us all to stay positive on social media. People don’t want to work with folks who are consistently negative. - “There’s already enough negativity in the world. I try to be as positive as possible.” – Kenneth Ellington + Maybe we should be curious about what others are working on first (and ask them about it) before sharing what we’re working on when it comes to networking. * Kenneth has a business coach and advisor for his work at ECA who helped re-create the company page and the LinkedIn page. Anyone visiting these pages can understand what Kenneth does and how he can help them. + There is a large amount of free resources available. When someone reaches out to Kenneth with a question he will share some of the free resources (articles, podcasts, videos etc.) in that topic area and encourages the person to reach out if they have questions. + Around 95% of the time, people never ask additional questions. + To save yourself time, develop a resource you can share with other people that can answer a lot of common questions. + For Kenneth the questions are usually about how to get into cybersecurity or how to level yourself up. Those questions are fine, but we need to dig deeper. If you can answer the questions below and then come to speak to Kenneth, it’s much easier to give personalized advice. - What specific area do you want to pursue within cybersecurity? - What do you want out of your career? - What type of company do you want to work for? - What is your current skill set? - Are you doing hands on training? - Do you want to be a leader, or do you just want to be an engineer? + John mentions people will stand out by consuming the free resources Kenneth shares based on an initial question and then following up with some additional questions. - Kenneth says if we do even the bare minimum, we will be ahead of many others.
26:16 – The Life of an Instructor* What made Kenneth enjoy being an instructor? + Kenneth’s father enjoys teaching others and was definitely an influence. + Teaching those first few courses helped Kenneth see how much he enjoyed being an instructor and helped him develop it. + Kenneth has also volunteered to teach elementary students cybersecurity. He shares how challenging it was to help kids that age understand core concepts and keep their attention. + There was a natural progression to Kenneth’s foray into becoming an instructor. - He taught kids, adults, volunteered, was an instructor at the University of Houston, and now owns his own company, instructing businesses and professionals. - “I just got better and better at it. I tried to improve my processes slowly but surely.” – Kenneth Ellington, on becoming an instructor + Sometimes people tell Kenneth they want to teach or be an instructor but do not want to re-invent the wheel. Sometimes they feel their content is not unique. - Our unique experiences and values get showcased when we teach. Learners may not resonate as well with other programs even if you’re teaching the same or similar content to a company like Hack the Box. - Your personality, attitude, or the way you carry yourself may fit well with the needs of a learner. - Remember you do not have to appeal to everyone as an instructor. Bring your unique experiences and values to it, and develop a unique voice. The market is large, and even by winning 1% of it you can do well. - If you need help, get a business coach and advisor. * What about being an instructor in a classroom vs. doing it remotely? + Virtual delivery seems harder. + It’s hard to ignore someone who is in your face in a physical classroom compared to an online (remote delivered) course where someone might have their camera off. + It’s easier to see facial expressions, emotions, and mannerisms in person. But on the other hand it is easier to get people on a remote session than in a classroom (i.e. easier to extend your reach virtually). Kenneth tells us it is a give and take. + At the time of this recording most events for Ellington Cyber Academy are virtual. * Developing the course work for Splunk and other topics deepened Kenneth’s knowledge. + When you’re the instructor, people are going to test your knowledge and ask questions. You want to ensure you know what things mean to provide answers. Understanding this pushed Kenneth to achieve greater depth of knowledge in areas on which he was / is teaching (i.e. Splunk as one example). + At the time of this recording, Kenneth was working on a Sentinel course and had to do extra research and labs. He likes to document steps so they only need to be performed once. + “Here’s what you click. Here’s why you click it. Here’s what you download. Here’s where you install it…. To the point where if I gave this document to my grandma she could do it. That’s how simple I want it to be.” – Kenneth Ellington, on documenting things step by step + Technical documentation can often times have gaps. Many of us have fallen victim to this. * John mentions having fallen victim to trying to teach someone something and realizing he’s unsure about the why or has a gap in understanding. + John references the television show ER and the mantra of “watch one, do one, teach one.” It’s a good idea to get hands on with a technology and then try to explain it to someone. It will help you identify your own lack of understanding in certain areas. + “I specifically make my stuff insanely hard because when you get on the job I don’t want you to be shocked by anything that you see….People will find out where the gaps in their knowledge are.” – Kenneth Ellington, on the reasoning for constructing coursework at Ellington Cyber Academy to be challenging
32:28 – Overcoming Objections to Self-Investment* In his work at ECA, Kenneth gets to teach people and is able to change people’s lives (i.e. help them achieve a better, higher paying job to take care of their families). Kenneth cannot get this same sense of satisfaction and fulfillment only from his day job. * Sometimes Kenneth wonders why he works so hard to run ECA. And when people let him know they got a new job making more money as a result of his help, it keeps him going. + John says because what he is doing is hard, it makes total sense for Kenneth to be paid for the work he does. + The feedback from people is evidence of the impact Kenneth is making. * Kenneth mentions at times trying to help people who may not want help. * In Kenneth’s day job as a cybersecurity consultant, a customer may not fully understand what they want to do or what they need. + When Kenneth’s company tries to help their customers, Kenneth says sometimes people get upset and don’t trust him or other consultants from his company. + John mentions there is usually a reason companies hire consultants. It’s to bring in a level of experience / expertise that a company doesn’t have to solve a problem. But the people consultants have to work with do not always want the advice. * From Kenneth’s experience owning and operating ECA, getting people to invest in themselves can be quite difficult. * Someone may spend $100K on a new car without any reservations but be hesitant to spend $10K on something that could change their life for the better (a course that could get them a new job, for example). + People might say they can do something on Udemy for cheaper than one of Kenneth’s courses, but after Kenneth checks in with those people again over time, most have taken no action. + When people start to get hesitant to invest in a course, often times they see value in making the investment (i.e. cost is not a roadblock). * Kenneth is not naturally good at sales and marketing and has a business coach and team to help him in these areas. + Working to craft offers that can overcome the psychological hurdles in people is the hardest part for Kenneth. + The teaching part is the easiest part of Kenneth’s business. + “Convincing people to trust in themselves because they came to me in the first place is the biggest thing.” – Kenneth Ellington + John mentions sales and closing a deal can be tough. There are people who might do nothing even if they paid the price for the course. * Kenneth’s courses were free initially. + When he would tell people to sign up and that it would take a month of commitment, they would balk at the time commitment. They would tell him it wasn’t about money but rather time. + Then when Kenneth started charging $85 for his courses, people would balk at the price. When prices went up for the course, people would point to other platforms like Udemy as being cheaper. + “If I make this free, you won’t do it. And I don’t like to make a product people won’t use….That’s why I charge for our services and products because they work and they change peoples’ lives.” – Kenneth Ellington, on handling objections as a business owner + Charging for services enables Kenneth to bring in recruiters, partners, and hiring managers to help those going through the program. + When people tell Kenneth they can get the same training on Udemy he asks why they haven’t done it. - John says the idea is that ECA is providing value above and beyond the baseline of Udemy, and if people do not realize this they are self-selecting not to do business with Kenneth. - When people say they hate their job and want to do something different, they may not hate it enough or want to do something different enough to take an action. + Nick says a lack of action is more than just knowing what you should do. There is an emotional and psychological piece that has to move in some direction. - John says there is a lot of inertia to overcome. The job in selling a product or service like this is to provide the option so that when someone gets motivated to move forward you are one of the options they could choose to move forward with. - Even fine tuning your sales processes by working with a coach does not fully overcome the psychological barriers. People might need to work out their own issues of inaction.
41:36 – A Mindset Coach* Kenneth has to be a bit of a mindset coach as well, helping students get through their pains and self doubt.
+ Students may not have had anyone who really believed in them.
+ A student could have previously trusted the wrong person or bootcamp in the industry.
+ “I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. They always can’t, so I tell them ‘you have to trust me, and you paid me a lot of money to trust me. So trust me’” – Kenneth Ellington, on motivating his students to shift their mindset
+ Kenneth says it’s always rewarding to see students grow both personally and professionally as a result of working with him.
+ For some people even references are not enough to help handle objections.
+ Kenneth shares the success story of Hazel, a college graduate from University of Texas at Arlington who struggled to find a job for 6 months after graduation. Her biggest struggle was confidence, but she showed tremendous growth in a short period of time.
- After the program ended Kenneth and team helped Hazel look for a job, and she got one in a few weeks.
- Kenneth has started to take Hazel to more local Dallas area meetups.
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Mentioned in the outro
- We should tell our managers what we’re interested in and what we want to do with our careers (assuming we’re having career conversations with them). If you aren’t having those, check out Episode 45 on career conversations with your manager.
- Hopefully this story echoes the lesson for managers to help their team members make connections that can further their career.
- When people give us advice, we may choose to take it or not take it. In Kenneth’s case, he got started right away pursuing the advice from Rick (the cybersecurity director).
- The discussion we had with Kenneth about being contacted on LinkedIn made Nick think of our discussion in Episode 147 of becoming hard to reach as one of the tenants of deep work.
- Someone from the Blacks in Cybersecurity organization asked Kenneth to create course work for the organization. This took on multiple iterations and became something Kenneth wanted to ensure was accessible to beginners.
- It’s difficult to invest in ourselves long term compared to doing something that is instantly gratifying.
- Brendon Burchard consistently recommends looking at your goals every day. Maybe we need a longer term focus and to take some time each day for ourselves, even if we’re taking time to analyze what we like and do not like about what we do.
- We should tell our managers what we’re interested in and what we want to do with our careers (assuming we’re having career conversations with them). If you aren’t having those, check out Episode 45 on career conversations with your manager.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 226 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_) – two technology professionals with backgrounds in IT Operations and Sales Engineering on a mission to help others accelerate career progression and increase job satisfaction by bringing listeners the advice we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 3 of an interview with John Nicholson with a focus on ways to negotiate offers, some food for thought on different company benefits, levels of risk as it relates to startups, and numerous tips on personal finance.
Original Recording Date: 02-02-2023
John Nicholson is a Staff Technical Marketing Architect at VMware and co-host of the Virtually Speaking Podcast. If you missed the first parts of our discussion with John, check out Episode 224 and Episode 225.
Topics – Negotiating Offers, The Purple Squirrel and more Company Benefits, Personal Finance3:00 – Negotiating Offers* When negotiating an offer and health insurance for example is more expensive than your current company, can you ask for the company to pay more for your insurance instead of offering more salary pay? In other words, does it come from a different bucket on the back end? + John N feels like health insurance options have to be pretty flat across the board (i.e. standardized for everyone). + 401K matches have to be flat as well. The company / companies will get into trouble if only the executives or "highly compensated individuals" are using the full match. - Additionally, the IRS has strict rules on fringe benefits. + John’s blog post even talks about hotels. What kind of hotels would the company put you up in if you need to travel? Is it Motel 6 only, or would a nicer Marriott be ok? + Consider any and all differences when you’re in the negotiation phase, and come into it by stating you’re taking the position of really wanting things to work out. Is the percentage of variable compensation negotiable (i.e. bonus or commission)? - If not, is there room in there to raise the base salary? You may or may not be coming in at the top of a salary band (which could be good or bad). - John N mentions raises are generally distributed heavier for people at the bottom of a pay band and lighter for those at the top. - If you’re at the top of the salary band and cannot adjust bonus / commission percentages advantageously, ask about the RSU bucket and if it can be increased (i.e. you want to enjoy the risk with the company). - John N has seen some startups allow designing your own compensation package to a certain extent. John provides the example of a married couple he knows in the San Francisco Bay area with one spouse seeking to always work for a well-known established company (being able to live within their means off the base salary) and the other spouse working at different startups structuring the base salary is low and the number of stock options is high (i.e. once the startup hits a successful exit the person can retire). This is a strategy. - Each person has a different risk tolerance level. Some take risks that seem crazy. John N tells us startup founders may turn down an offer to buy the company because they have had success in the past and are "swinging from the fences." - When working for a startup, your risk tolerance and your founder’s risk tolerance could be completely different. In the case where founders are trying to gain all they can from the startup, it can potentially end in tears for all parties. Listen to John N’s illustration. - There’s also something called secondary offerings. John N encourages us to go look at Crunchbase. In this situation the company executives might instead of taking an exit of the startup and putting money back in the company sell their shares for personal gain (i.e. lowering their ownership stake and making sure they have a way to retire but not doing it for the benefit of the company. * Nick mentioned wellness benefits that we might need to take into consideration when working for our current / future employer. + John N mentions a 2-day intensive speaker training in which he participated. They would record each person as they delivered some kind of presentation, and John says it was surprising how much this experience improved everyone’s speaking abilities. + Spending a chunk of money on 5 members of a team for a 2-day training to make them better is not something companies casually do. This is why John encourages us to ask about training. + It’s possible people may not want to make more money by making a move. They may just want to not work on Fridays, for example, or work from home all the time. Others may want to go to the office because working from home isn’t an option or something they want to get away from, for example. + Working from home sounds great until you realize you have to provide an office space for yourself and place to work (including furniture, etc.) that is not necessarily funded by the company. John White tells us this may require raising your standard of living to get a bigger house or apartment for a dedicated room. - John N shares an illustration about the difference in cost of an extra bedroom in Houston, TX (around $40,000 extra on your mortgage) and one in Palo Alto, California (around $2,000 extra per month in mortgage / rent). - Maye you enjoy working remotely and are willing to go live somewhere cheaper. Some companies have an offset for this and may or may not be transparent about it. - John N feels the more senior someone is the more they will push back on what they get paid regardless of where they live. Junior candidates may not be able to push as hard and may see the company pushing back.
11:13 – The Purple Squirrel and more Company Benefits* John N tells us a purple squirrel is a term recruiters use to describe an impossible list of skills needed to fill a specific role. In other words, someone is looking for something that doesn’t exist (which can happen a lot with internal IT). Realistically a company might need to change what they are looking for or split it between multiple roles. Listen to John N’s illustration. + John N isn’t sure why HR and recruiters refer to folks as purple squirrels but says HR folks have some of the best stories. John N would encourage us to ask HR personnel who don’t work for our company some fun questions about interesting situations. + This gets back to the suggestion of always having questions to ask people. If John N is in a cab in a foreign country or meets somoene who works a 24-hour job, he will ask about the weirdest things those people have ever seen. You can learn all kinds of things by doing this. + "If they have listed a bunch of random stuff and you’re the one guy who has it, stare down the recruiter and be like, ‘I am the purple squirrel, and you’re not going to find anyone else. Show me the money!’" – John Nicholson + John N tells us to be likable, lively, and fun. But also think about randomly switching to being completely serious about execution. * John N says some companies will let you do a mega back door Roth or other longer term tax avoidance tactics. + The more senior you are and the more research you do, think about what the company does at anniversaries. VMware, for example, will 100% match charitable donations to non-profits in the US up to a certain amount per year. Many companies like to do non-profit matching since they can write off the match for tax purposes. * Look for benefits like companies contributing some annual amount a Health Saving Account (or HSA) for employees. + If you have a Health Savings Account John N recommends investing it and not letting it sit in cash. + There are some interesting ways to put in money tax free, let it grow tax free by investing it, and in some cases, remove it tax free.
14:55 – Personal Finance* There are a number of hyper-optimizations you can do with these benefits, which are things you’re not going to do when fresh out of school. * As you become more senior there is a lot you can do to help work backward toward leaving the industry on your own terms, for example. John N says we should try to set a target date for retirement, a date you would like to work past but one at which you could retire if you wanted.
+ "I don’t want to be that guy who is burned out, making half what he used to, is having to work, and angry. I’ve met that guy. I don’t want to be that guy." – John Nicholson
- John White says when it comes to personal finance it is wise to get yourself healthy in that area before uncertainties come your way.
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John N says the lower you are paid the easier it is to find a job. He once did a stint as a bartender / bar / manager / waiter and mentions it was pretty easy to find a new job quickly.
- As you gain experience and begin to target more senior roles, the funnel is smaller. It’s important to understand this.
- Some say for every $10,000 you make over $80,000 add another week to expected time to find a new job (which may not be true in the tech industry).
- John N gives the example of a sales engineer being able to land something else fairly quickly even if they did not like it.
- John White’s story of getting laid off and needing to find a new job is something to reference. Check out Episode 220 for the first of a 4-part series showcasing that story.
- If you are a niche specialist and have some unique skill that not many might be looking for, you may decide you need some reserves ready for this.
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The advice of many people is to keep a 6-month or more emergency fund for tough times. The longer you work, the more you should have in reserve.
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Should you leave all reserve that sitting in cash? You might if you’re a bundle of nerves or extremely worried about it, but there are alternatives.
- If you keep $100K in cash only, you are potentially burning 8-9% per year because of inflation (so $9K annually).
- If you want some kind of yield over time for the money, maybe you look at TreasuryDirect and look at i-series bonds. You can buy $10,000 per year per social security number in your house, and if inflation goes up, the value goes up. John N is laddering by buying $10K per year in these so he can shift his emergency fund to i-series bonds (which will auto-adjust to inflation).
- This type of bond can be cashed in after 1 year of being purchased but not before. If you sell before the end of 5 years, some of the interest earned gets taken away (the previous 90 days). But if you lose your job, that’s fine because you would need the money.
- Perhaps you keep some reserves in cash and some in i-series bonds.
- Maybe you decide to keep your reserves in blue chip stocks since these do not shift up and down as much as others. The largest bad stock event with these kinds of stocks are generally no more than 20%. So if you wanted to have $100K in reserves you could invest $120K and still have your target even if the market is down.
- Perhaps you take a blended approach and have some cash, some i-series bonds, some treasuries, and some blue chip stock you can sell if needed.
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We also need to find tools to look at where our money is going.
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There are a number of products out there. John N likes to do a 1-month review of the top expenses on credit cards and categorize them. He uses Personal Capital (which seems to have moved to Empower). Many people use tools like Mint or YNAB which are spending management tools and can really help if you need to get on a budget. The tool John N mentioned is more of a finance tool.
- It can be very helpful to sit down with other family members monthly to go through spending.
- John N looks at top spends and likes to look at it from a cash flow basis (cash going out, cash going in, and where he and his family are). Some people do envelopes and specialized savings accounts.
- Be sure to factor in extra overheads of yearly expenses like property taxes and ensure you are saving enough monthly to account for it.
- John N likes the aggregation of all financial assets. It helps to see everything in one place across your brokerage, retirement accounts, etc.
- Be sure to roll over any 401(K) funds and do not leave with the old company (roll into existing 401(K) or some kind of Roth IRA).
- If all this sounds painful, go hire a financial advisor who will take 1% of your assets per year to manage it. John N likes to read the Wall Street Journal and is kind of a finance nerd (likes to do it himself).
- Also look into r/personalfinance on Reddit – there is a good wiki there.
- Many people have too much cash on hand and do not invest enough.
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If you’re saving up for college, you could look at a 529 plan and work backward from what projected tuition will be.
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If you have extra money in their your kids could roll it over into a Roth IRA as part of the SECURE Act.
- John N tells us not to copy him and that he does not use 529s. He’s heavily investing in Roth 401(K) using he mega backdoor conversion plan as well as Roth IRA. Roth accounts seasoned for 5 years will allow you to withdraw the contributions and then spend on anything (since it was post-tax anyway) but cannot withdraw the gains.
- Crazy rich people might start looking at family limited partnerships for example to hide money in assets. If colleges know you have a ton of money they expect you to pay more.
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If you’re severely in debt, consider the Dave Ramsey Debt Snowball approach.
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You might need to go with envelopes for budgeting.
- Nick says The Automatic Millionaire is good too.
- John N says he likes Dave Ramsey for people who have a spending problem but isn’t a fan of Ramsey’s investment and finance advice.
- Many of the investments we have discussed are going to be much more fun to do once you’re no longer in debt or broke (which John N experienced in his 20s).
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People often look to others as examples. Many will say they have done a specific thing and encourage others to follow the same path.
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"The road behind you is always changing. The specifics of your situation is always different….How we got to here, that path or the most efficient path to it is probably not what we did." – John Nicholson, on following the same path as others.
- Personal finance is deeply personal and deeply specific, and there are easy mode solutions like…
- Max out your 401(K) match, put at least 10% in, and use a target date fund
- John N wants us to know he’s qualifying why he does what he does and is not going to sit and tell everyone to do exactly what he does / did.
- Part of the podcast thesis is to help people get ahead faster than we did, and there is no one path.
- Some book recommendations and other resources if you want to gain knowledge
- A Random Walk Down Wall Street by Burton G. Malkiel will teach you why you’re likely not going to beat the market guessing stocks
- Freakonomics – it makes statistics fun
- Against the Gods by Peter L. Bernstein – if you want to get into risk and assessment of it / why humanity is poor at it
- If you like podcasts, check out Planet Money
- Reading these books and reading the Wall Street Journal for a couple of years could provide a fantastic background which may be comparable to someone who went to school for business administration.
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Parting thoughts
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Remember to check out John Nicholson’s podcast Virtually Speaking Podcast.
- He also has a blog, which is where you can find the article that prompted much of our discussions.
- You can find John Nicholson on Twitter at @Lost_Signal.
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Mentioned in the outro
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Don’t forget to do your homework in advance on pay bands using online tools like levels.fyi, in conversations with the recruiter, in reading job descriptions, etc.
- At small enough startups maybe it makes sense to ask the founders what their exit strategy is and how much risk they are accepting (if they are willing to share) or at least get their perspective. You could also try to get perspective from the people interviewing you on the exit strategy.
- We would want to ask this of people in a respectful way. It cannot be the most important topic of conversation or your only question, but it’s part of your total compensation.
- Benefits like insurance can be wildly different from company to company. Understand what your healthcare costs would be when evaluating an offer.
- Retirement benefits are also important to understand as there could be huge advantages to one company over another (matching employee retirement benefits like 401K and the mega back door IRA options).
- Needing to add an extra room because you’re working from home (and the cost of doing it) is not something Nick had considered before this interview.
- Check out other episodes in which we discussed personal finance:
- Episode 57 – Preparing for Unexpected Opportunities Part 5 – Personal Finance
- Bonus 07 – Influence of Family on Career and Career on Family
- Episode 169 – A Thoughtful Personal Sabbatical with Mike Wood (2/2)
- Episode 218 – Explaining Hard Concepts in Simple Terms with Jason Langer (1/2)
- Episode 189 – Capture the Intangibles with Joe Houghes (3/3)
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 225 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_) – two technology professionals with backgrounds in IT Operations and Sales Engineering on a mission to help others accelerate career progression and increase job satisfaction by bringing listeners the advice we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of an interview with John Nicholson with a focus on compensation. We’ll talk through stocks as compensation, how resumes might highlight expensive skills in a manager’s eyes, and how good managers look at employee compensation.
Original Recording Date: 02-02-2023
John Nicholson is a Staff Technical Marketing Architect at VMware and co-host of the Virtually Speaking Podcast. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with John, check out Episode 224.
Topics – Compensation, Org Charts as Tools, Stocks as Compensation3:35 – Compensation* This blog John Nicholson wrote about points of consideration before taking a job offer was a jumping off point for much of our discussions. * It’s probably best not to start with talk of numbers unless a recruiter asks you. + Listen to John N’s strategy for dealing with random recruitment direct messages on LinkedIn. He mentions this has helped him avoid a lot of conversations but also that this blunt approach sometimes gets a recruiter to keep you in mind for something down the road (i.e. level sets on what you want). + If you’re interviewing with a hiring manager / other members of a hiring team (not the recruiter), John N recommends not leading with numbers. * If you’re working for a large technology company, you can do your own homework and get an idea for what the salary range might be. + Check out levels.fyi – it’s a bunch of compensation specialists and former HR personnel who have experience with FAANG companies that have done salary surveys and reverse engineered pay bands. + They (levels.fyi) also have details on stock benefits like RSUs (restricted stock units) and how vesting works for this type of compensation. If you get $250K in stocks but won’t see it until year 3, that’s a big deal! + The above is different than Glassdoor, which usually only talks about base and variable components of compensation. + Much of the above is covered in John N’s blog post if you want to learn more, but the idea is to consider all elements of overall compensation for a position. + What is the bonus structure for the company, by how much are people usually hitting their bonus targets, and how often do bonuses get paid? It’s helpful to have people in your network who work for the company in question and will be able to tell you. If people tell you they haven’t hit the bonus in a number of cycles, it would likely not be contributing to compensation by much (if any). + Start with the bigger numbers, but don’t overlook smaller things like ESPP (employee stock purchase plans). It’s a little bit of a roulette game, but you can earn some extra money by participating. * Should we ask a recruiter how the benefits have changed over the last 6-12 months because of the economy? + Some survey data John N has seen shows offers are going down slightly. Even with that said, the growth of offers over the past 10 years has probably been pretty crazy. + If you look at the levels.fyi site, you can actually look at a specific pay band and see when the offers were made (i.e. recently or years ago). + The site also allows you to compare multiple companies to one another. + Knowing whether the salary you want exists in the job level being offered in an open position is helpful. You may be able to advocate for raising the job level based on your experience during the interview process. This may not work, but the right person advocating for raising the level inside the company may be able to make it happen. + This could go the other way as well. If you seem like a good fit but perhaps do not have all the experience for the level of an open role, a hiring manager may lower the level to hire you. - John N did this now and then as a manager when he spotted someone who could grow into becoming a senior consultant in a couple of years with mentorship. John recognizes a hiring manager can get an employee for a good price and also help the person looking for work get a raise. - When John N looked at resumes as a hiring manager and saw skills that were expensive but that he didn’t need, he might not even interview that person (knowing they would be looking for high compensation as a result of the skills in question). - This goes back to tailoring your resume to the job you want. If you keep being contacted about positions that are different than what you want, it may mean your resume does not reflect the proper skills and experience. This includes leaving out expensive, unrelated skills that may get you filtered out of the hiring process completely. Listen to the examples John N provides. - Neither John White nor Nick had considered leaving out expensive, unrelated skills from the resume. - John N tells us if he had an A+ certification he would remove it from his resume or from LinkedIn if he didn’t want to do doing entry level printer repair, for example. - If you have a CCNA but have not touched a network for several years or don’t want to work on networking, John N would recommend removing it from your resume. - Ideally you want a hiring manager to look at your resume and say "these skills all look like they are relevant, and I can afford them." - John White says this is the idea that looking at a resume could (without needing a cover letter) convey to someone else the job the candidate is looking for. * When John N looked at resumes he was essentially seeing dollar signs for every line item (much like a scene he saw in a movie). * Do hiring managers get some type of incentive / extra budget if they get the company a good deal on an employee hire (i.e. come in under expected budget)? + It never bothered John N that his people were making good money (during his time as a manager). + Many younger IT folks believe their managers get incentivized to not give raises or pay their people better. There might be someone in recruitment who is incentivized to come in under budget (which is why they are likely part of the negotiation phase). + Most managers are concerned with getting a hire approved and do not want to feel like they were burned or slighted somehow in the process. + John N tells us most managers are not trying to keep people down in pay. Another consideration point is that if managers are paying people too little, they will leave. + A nice thing about the people under John N in the consulting world is they were each billable. John could create a profit and loss statement to see how much his people were making the company (after taking into account certain overhead items). + John N would compare what he was making for an employee compared to his cost of having the employee, and if the gap was too high (i.e. profit more than 2x employee cost), he needed to consider closing it so as to not lose the employee to another company. + Sometimes a manager may need a person with a very specific and unique skillset for a role. Are you looking for a purple squirrel, hiring manager? - When specific people leave they might have to be replaced with two people, teams may be shuffled around, or other personnel may need a lot of training to fill the gap. + "Good managers just don’t want people to leave. It’s expensive. It’s time consuming." – John Nicholson + A manager may have to help fill gaps when an employee leaves or explain why the team is missing SLAs. + "A good manager should not begrudge anyone getting paid what they want or they are worth." – John Nicholson + An employee moving to a different area of the company is not quite as damaging because you can get a little bit of overlap from them or at least ask them questions easily. - It is much more challenging if someone left the company. You can only ask them questions about how internal systems worked and other tribal knowledge for a very short period of time. Even then it might be awkward. + Good managers will encourage lateral movement within the company. Good managers John N has had in the past have encouraged an open dialogue about career aspirations and offered to help him work on things he wanted to pursue as a next step (i.e. "let’s work on that"). - Not everyone wants to be honest with their manager about career aspirations and would rather sneak out like a thief in the night. - If a manager thinks you’re not going to be around very long and they have budget for raises, they may choose to give a raise to someone else they know is going to stay. - "There is a perverse incentive to not reward your best employee if you know you can’t keep up with his skills and his pay." – John Nicholson - John N has seen people sabotage their career by moving around too much. He shares the story of someone who despite their brilliance never got a raise or promotion because the person was never seen as loyal to the team they had joined. - John White says people likely do not realize that giving raises or more stock rewards (whatever shape the compensation might take) have a political cost to a manager. - John N says it’s not just your manager asking to get you or other members of the team a raise. It’s about multiple managers / directors making a case to higher level leaders for who gets part of the "pile of golden coins" they have to spend on raises. - John N says he did not understand the above process until a director sat down and explained it to him. It’s not just about your manager liking you and wanting to get you a raise. It’s about other managers and other teams within your greater organization liking you and advocating for you too. - In tech marketing, for example, John N would need directors and senior directors of product management to be advocating for him (i.e. agree that John has made an impact for them) for one thing. Listen to his description of who else might need to agree he’s made an impact. - You may be great at making your team look good. But if you’re not helping the other teams within your organization look good, when up against others for a limited number of promotions available within the organization, it may not happen for you. You need the other managers / other people at the table to agree "it’s his time." - We should be willing to help others even if it does not directly help drive our own KPIs (key performance indicators) or MBOs (manage by objective). It can hurt us in ways we might not realize. - John N tells us if your manager’s peer asks you for something and you are busy, it is your manager’s job to block the request. But, if you can spare the time to help with these kinds of things now and then it can really help you build relationships that will help down the road. - John White says we can also follow up with those peers of our manager to ask their opinion on what you need to do for promotion. - There’s something to looking for feedback on how we are perceived. Some managers will give you blunt truth. Others are going to tell you everything is fine and then say (in meetings about raises) you meet goals but may not overachieve. John N prefers the blunt ones but reminds us there is a spectrum containing both. Spending time working with your manager’s lateral peers can provide some subtle hints as to how your manager actually views you.
20:38 – Org Charts as Tools* John White says perhaps we should learn to use company organization charts as tools if we’re not already using them. + John N says it’s one thing to know the organizational structure from an org chart, but what should you be talking to people at each level of the organization about? The org chart tool on its own may not tell you. + John N has been able to learn the org chart of companies for which he has consulted even better than the people who work there. + It’s helpful to go to lunch with or meet others who work in your company (even if done at random). Working at a campus gives you an opportunity for happy interactions. John N tells us he found out about a team working on Arm years before the project was released because he asked what some other people do. + This is harder if you work remotely because you don’t have the happy interactions. John N tells us to be guided by our curiosity. Ask people to have a brief discussion about what they are working on. + Making lateral connections is advantageous from the standpoint that these other teams could be landing spots should you need a job, lose your job, or be in danger of needing one. + John N tells us that at very large companies you can lose your job, reapply for another position internally, and get a new job. This may sound odd if you have never worked for a large organization like this, but it does happen.
22:48 – Stocks as Compensation* What about compensation in the form of stocks? This could be from being granted RSUs (restricted stock units) or participating in some kind of employee stock purchase program (ESPP).
+ John N says we should not look at the company stock each week and freak out. He’s been through turbulent times after being awarded a stock grant and shares the story of stock value splitting in half after he was awarded some stock shares.
+ Stock can be a golden handcuff because it is on a time delayed plan. Let’s define some terms.
+ Cliff – if you get a stock grant, when do you get the first part of that money? A 4-year stock grant with a 1-year cliff means you would see the first part of that money 1 year after the grant took place.
+ Nick shares that RSUs can be part of an offer letter. Not everyone might know this.
- John N agrees. You would need to ask for these up front as part of an offer and not after the fact.
+ The cliffs we mentioned may not be an exact year of time. It could be a certain number of months for a specific percentage of the stocks in the grant to vest (i.e. you can sell them if you want).
+ The stock grant could be back-loaded where you might not see the majority of the grant vest until toward the end of the vesting period. John N feels Amazon might have done this at one point.
+ John N has heard of one specific software company that has a cliff period of 1 month (i.e. a certain percentage vests every single month that you can treat like consistent variable compensation tied to the stock price).
+ John N recommends finding out what the cliff is (how long), what the releases are (i.e. if they are evenly distributed), etc.
- There is the initial stock grant, and then there will be what are called refreshers, which could be less than the original grant (but may not be).
- Keep in mind the company is aware of the stock price. John N knows of one person who was promoted and thought they would get a raise, but when the stock price went through the roof that person was told congratulations and that they were already paid for the great work (because of the stock).
+ A release of stocks that were granted means they have become vested (i.e. you hit the cliff period) and can be sold.
- John N says we should sell released RSUs immediately upon vesting unless you’re extremely wealthy.
- Your RSUs are taxed as regular income at vesting time (i.e. they show up on your 2). The company may have held / sold some shares for you to help offset taxes (which may show up as stock offset or RSU offset on a payroll form). Be mindful of your tax bracket.
- Suppose you have a lot of stocks that vested in your ETrade account and the company goes bankrupt tomorrow. You still owe taxes on those stocks! Reporting a capital gains loss is not going to offset regular income.
- John White tells us it could be extremely ugly if you work for a company that both does stack ranking (i.e. 10-20% of people are going to get fired in a given year) and they back load the restricted stock. It might look like you got a great offer, but there is a big chance you will not be around to get all the money. So it’s all funny money.
+ Zynga was highlighted in the news for looking at stock options (generally given out at private companies but could be given at public companies).
- The options are usually tied to a strike price and heavily back-loaded for periods of up to 5 years even (i.e. something to keep you at the company).
- John N shares the story of someone working for Zynga who had options that were about to vest after the Zynga IPO who was approached by finance and asked to surrender options under threat of being fired before the vest date (because the person was about to cash in millions). The company got sued over this.
+ The above (stock options) is not something a person with RSUs working for a public company really needs to be concerned with.
+ With private companies, stock options are like negotiating the right to, in 5 years, lease a car of unknown value in an unknown currency.
- John N shares that we should check out tldroptions.io. Based on the series of funding your company is in, it will help give you an idea of how you should value the stock options (based on likelihood of company IPO, how well it will exit, etc.).
- If you have stock options after having been with the company for 5 years and then need to leave, you essentially have to execute the options and pay taxes on them. The company could still fail or delay in its IPO, leaving you with worthless lottery tickets.
- "People commonly refer to options for private companies as lottery tickets for good a reason." – John Nicholson on stock options
- We emphasize the vast difference between RSUs granted by a public company that can be sold upon vest for immediate cash and stock options.
- John N cautions us to watch out for promises of private shares / stock options as they are often greatly talked up when offered to you. What are they actually worth, and how many were given out to others? What were those folks promised?
- Sometimes things like ratchet clauses come into play in late stage startup funding rounds when a startup hits IPO lower than what was promised. These are used by investors to take back equity for investors before anyone else can benefit from the transaction.
+ When it comes to being offered stock options, consider…
- How many shares are outstanding?
- How many more funding rounds will there be?
- There’s no real SEC involvement in private companies. Someone could posture they are going for big IPO and then sell a week later with your options being worth nothing.
- One of the startup trends John N is seeing as a result of regulatory overhead is startups going public much later than used to be the case. You may only have the chance to work for a startup once or twice in a 5 to 10 year period to try and see it through exit to public offering, and we only have so many working years.
+ Pay attention to stock performance of a company over time. If you’re applying for a job there and the stock is trading significantly lower than it was, why is that? Try and find out as this is a sign something unhealthy may be happening.
+ Employee stock purchase programs (or ESPP) allow you to purchase company stock at a discounted rate over time by withdrawing post-tax funds from your paycheck.
- There are IRS maximums per calendar year in which you contribute, but this can be limited by the company allowing ESPP as a benefit to employees. See this article for more detail. The stock can be offered at up to a 15% discount to employees and is essentially a 6-month guaranteed return of 15%.
- Even if the stock goes up during the 6 month period, your share purchase through ESPP is based on the price when the period began (i.e. could be more than a 15% return). There are variations to how this could be done at a specific company within the bounds of IRS limitations.
- Some companies may require you to hold the shares 1 year before selling, but if they are given to you immediately after the period of investment, that is free money on the table. The amount of return above 15% is dependent on being in the right place at the right time according to John N.
- Remember we’re talking about investing post-tax funds to then buy stocks at a discounted rate as part of ESPP. If you invested $10,000 and made $1,500 as a result of selling the stocks you owe taxes on the $1,500 (the gains). Selling the stocks immediately means it is a short term capital gain and is taxed the same as your normal tax bracket percentage. If you hold the stock for a year after it gets purchased and released to you through ESPP, it would cost less in taxes and be a long-term capital gain for the $1,500 for example.
- John N tells us there is risk involved in waiting the year. He prefers to sell the stocks once they are released as part of the program. We are risking the original investment to save tax money on the gains. Unless you’re in some odd situation where the stock has doubled in value over the ESPP period and you need to hold the stock to optimize taxes, it is more advisable to sell the stocks immediately.
- John N would caution us about holding our own company’s stock. If something bad happened the stock would go down, we might lose our job at the company, and by holding stock we’re risking the savings we would need to rely on if we lost a job. We need to make sure we have contingencies.
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Mentioned in the outro
- Stock options as it relates to startups are not something previous guests have shared with us in detail, and we’ve covered restricted stock units in detail here too.
- The discussion about removing seemingly expensive skills from your resume was fascinating. The perception of expensive comes from the hiring team and not from the candidate applying. Maybe you should leave skills off that aren’t relevant to the job for which you are applying?
- Maybe we should bring this up with other guests who are hiring managers in future episodes!
- The discussion of John Nicholson’s filter for unsolicited recruiter messages is proof that we shouldn’t expect a recruiter to always tailor their contact to us in the same way we would tailor a resume for a job description.
- But, interacting with a recruiter and letting them know what you’re looking for can make them a potential advocate for you. Check out Episode 213 with guest Leah White for more detail.
- The idea that there is no incentive for managers to hold down employee compensation strongly aligns with John White’s experience with his tenure as a manager thus far (i.e. pay people well to promote longevity and retention).
- Remember John Nicholson is a co-host of the Virtually Speaking Podcast with Pete Fletcha. In addition to good Vmware and virtualization ecosystem content there are some good episodes that focus on career. Be sure to browse their catalog!
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 224 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_) – two technology professionals with backgrounds in IT Operations and Sales Engineering on a mission to help others accelerate career progression and increase job satisfaction by bringing listeners the advice we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of an interview with John Nicholson, talking through the role of a tech marketer and how to progress into that role. We also discuss some of the points in John’s blog on considerations before accepting a job offer (which includes considerations during the interview process).
Original Recording Date: 02-02-2023
Topics – The Tech Marketing Role, Consideration Points before Accepting a Job Offer, Interview Questions and the Vibe Check3:06 – The Tech Marketing Role* John Nicholson is a Staff Technical Marketing Architect at Vmware and co-host of the Virtually Speaking Podcast. + Technical marketers can work with customers, product managers (PMs), and product marketing. + In John’s role, technical marketing sits within a business unit (or product team). A lot of what technical marketers do is produce content and then get the content out there. + Some organizations put this group within an office of the CTO, within a special evangelist group, or elsewhere. + Often you see tech marketing personnel on stage at conferences or producing videos, for example. John tells us roughly 80% of the work is behind the scenes working to support the next product launch – collecting information, training sales engineers, building enablement for partners, conducting workshops, etc. There is a lot that is very visible but much that is hidden. + Nick says John N is part of the team who creates all kinds of pretty pictures and diagrams people love, right? - John says yes. They create PowerPoint slide decks for consumption and even things like interactive infographics (one example being the vSAN infographic). - The team is constantly evaluating what people click on and what closes deals, speaking with sales engineers, customers, etc. - The vSAN Design Guide, for example, can be a challenge to maintain due to its length. But when you look at the traffic statistics, many people look at it. - John tells us there are long form content options that they team maintain as well as shorter, byte size content like 2-minute videos / demos or even a quick GIF. + You have to like writing to do tech marketing. Perhaps you like blogging and communicating. You don’t have to be the world’s most gifted speaker but cannot be afraid / paralyzed to go and present to audiences of 150 people or more. + John likes to say people get into tech marketing because they are already doing it. This role recruits heavily from solution engineers or customers who were already presenting at conferences and blogging. + John N mentions he knows John White from a presentation they did together probably 10 years ago at Spiceworld on storage virtualization. - Nick was in the audience for that presentation and says it was excellent! He remembers each John sharing a couple of slides and speaking for probably 5-10 minutes on each slide. + If you’re interested in pursuing this path, go speak at a VMware User Group (VMUG) or a local BSides. The idea is to speak at local area user group events to practice and work your way up. - John N. tells us Duncan Epping has a great 2-part blog (part 1, part 2) on working his way up to where he is today. John says he and Duncan have presented to a room of 750 people before, and at his core Duncan is terrified of public speaking. - The recruiting for technical marketing comes from pools of people who are already doing the speaking and writing. That shows you have experience before you take the job. Managers in tech marketing want to see that experience in people they hire. + This is a pattern. If you want a position, you should develop a history of doing the different parts of the job that are in that position (as much as you know) which builds a referenceable body of work and relatable experience. - John N says he didn’t actually apply for the role until somoene recommend he do so. Duncan Epping sent him a message about it. - When John N started interviewing for a tech marketing role he had been speaking, had been on podcasts, had already written technical notes for vSAN (which happened to be the product team he was going to join), and he had been involved in giving product teams feedback through mechanisms like CTAB (customer technical advisory board). + Coming into this field or moving between tech companies can be challenging due to the amount of tribal language and acronyms. It’s not welcoming, and we can each do our part to help people understand what we mean and ensure people new to it really understand the terminology being used (all part of removing jargon). + In tech marketing John N presents to many people whose primary language is not English. - Knowing your audience is important. Things like idiomatic expressions may not translate well and could be offensive to some audiences. Be sure to clean up the language you use in presentations so it is clear to your audience and represents what you really want to say.
11:11 – Consideration Points before Accepting a Job Offer* John Nicholson wrote a great blog article we’ve referenced previously on the things you need to know before taking a job offer. + John thinks it started as a Spiceworks post and eventually became too large to copy to a Reddit thread, so he decided to move it to a blog and let it live as a document. + The blog is written in two parts. The top part it is when you as a candidate are interviewing a potential employer. - When John N interviewed at VMware it was different for him. He felt happy in the job he had at the time managing a team and felt he was making good money. As a result John decided there were certain questions he needed to ask to "interview them." - Being in consulting gave John a view of what healthy functioning companies looked like. He would often have to meet with CFOs (Chief Financial Officers) to understand some of the reasoning behind IT project funding. - John N learned the signs of a healthy company, signs of a healthy team, and signs of things to avoid (i.e. evidence of red flags). - For example, if you do not meet your future manager in the interview process or just meet the manager and not a member of the team on which you would be working, those are both red flags. - The article was originally written for the IT practitioner (with discussion of budgets, services you might need to manage / administer if you get the job). - The blog also gets a lot into how to look at a company when applying for a role there. - John has seen people in the tech industry move from a safe, healthy job that pays well to a startup that isn’t nearly as safe. He would encourage us all to bookmark crunchbase.com and look at things like the cap table and funding rounds. One could look at that and see how easy / challenging it might be for a company to reach an IPO. John has seen senior directors move from well established tech companies to startups that die 6 months later, for example. - Understanding business finance can help you make decisions about companies. + The second part of the blog is more about compensation and questions related to it. - "What the base salary is not the full story. There’s a lot of detail there." – John Nicholson on total compensation for a job * The first question the blog encourages us to ask is the company’s view on training. + John White says this can in some ways speak to how fast the company is moving and how much they want people to develop skills. + John N tells us we need to determine if on day 1 we would be managing something with which we have no experience or if there is a gentle ramp up. Or maybe you enjoy the chaos? + Another good question to ask is "why is this position open?" - John White had not thought about asking this one before speaking with John Nicholson. - This can make people feel a bit awkward, but we should pay attention to whether people say positive or negative things about the person who last occupied the role. John Nicholson has also seen someone completely destroy a datacenter on their way out of the company (which also could be a sign of a toxic culture). - Having a strong network can help here also (knowing people who have worked for the company at some point or people who work there currently). If you were going to work for a large organization like Amazon for example, likely there are great teams and some not so great teams to join. It would be wise to learn about the team you’re joining from people who interact with that team or perhaps work on that team so you know (at least somewhat) what you are getting into by joining the company as a member of that team. - John N says we need to get out there and meet people. We can stay in touch with former co-workers on LinkedIn, for example. - John White mentions he had a calendar reminder every other month to follow up with someone on LinkedIn. He would export his LinkedIn connections and leverage a random number generator to select the person. - If you go have coffee with someone you’ll find out about opportunities. People will make connections for you / keep you in mind for opportunities (even if you’re not looking for a job). It’s like having a parachute packed and allows you to have a pulse on the market in a way.
17:57 – Interview Questions and the Vibe Check* Nick doesn’t feel like the average interviewee develops a list of questions to ask their interviewers throughout the process.
+ John N says he’s been in too many interviews where the candidate has no questions. Do not be that person! Make sure you have questions.
+ There are certainly tricky mind game type questions, but asking a few questions (even if you borrow them from John N’s blog) helps the people interviewing you see you have thought about the role and are interested. It also helps you make a decision.
+ Not understanding what the job is going to be and not understanding what the compensation is going to be is like trying to buy a car without knowing the color it will be, what the trim package is like, and trying to negotiate without knowing the currency being used.
+ It’s important to establish some kind of ground truth, or you may not be getting what you think you’re getting.
+ John N shares the story of someone he worked with who was excited about another company offering him a 15% raise. It turned out there was no bonus structure at the new company, and insurance was more expensive. This person actually ended up taking a pay cut to make the move even though it didn’t seem that way on the surface.
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Another question from the blog John White hadn’t thought about asking (especially when moving into a role you’re not familiar with) – how is success measured?
- Is the measure of success a stack rank on the team?
- What are the outcomes or OKRs (objectives and key results)? Are these measured on a short sprint, a couple of times per year, continuously, etc.?
- Do you do 360 assessments where peers judge each other?
- There can be environments where the measurements are nonexistent or solely based on the discretion of the manager, and those can work.
- "Managers to me are binary. Can I work for this person? Do I respect them? Are they going to help me with my career?….People don’t quit jobs. They quit managers more often than they quit jobs." – John Nicholson on determining if someone is a good manager
- Signs of a poor manager could be…
- Are they someone I’m going to want to avoid meetings with, that I know is never going to have the ball in my court?
- Are they someone I will have to work around to advance / get basic resources / accomplish my day job?
- In the interview process you’re interviewing potential managers who could (depending on the company) fire you but could also annoy you enough to encourage you to leave the company.
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What are some of the top questions John Nicholson would ask a potential manager in the interview process?
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What is the expected time for productivity, or what does that look like? What is the ramp up period for the job you are about to take?
- If you are moving from being a SRE (site reliability engineer) at Google to a role at Amazon, it will take time to learn new things.
- One example John shares is a manager telling him for the first 6 months he probably would not be terribly productive due to a large number of unique systems and different types of activities than John had previously done.
- This was very different than John’s experience in the MSP (managed service provider) space where someone’s first day on the job might be to lead a project.
- If it’s a support role, how long will it be until you’re expected to take customer calls?
- If it’s a sales role, how long will someone be shadowing you before you can take calls on your own?
- Will there be specialists who support me?
- Who do I reach out to when I’m stuck? The hope is your manager would assign someone in the short term and for a longer term. Another reason to meet the team is to see if there are others who will be invested in your success.
- You don’t want to walk into a system that incentivizes people not helping each other (i.e. the stack rank option mentioned previously).
- Stack ranking puts people into a tiered structure based on how they perform (or an executive leader’s perception of their performance / value to the company) with the top tier containing the top performers and the highest rewards. Lower tiers may contain some rewards but perhaps not as many. Listen to the way John Nicholson describes it.
- The lowest tier of people in a stack rank system may be on performance improvement plans or get unknowingly volunteered for the next reduction in force. John N knows of at least one tech company where if you’re in that bottom tier (i.e. bottom 10-20%) your bonus will be zero. If bonus or some variable component makes up a lot of your compensation, this can have a big impact on your pay.
- As part of the interview process, try to meet the skip-level manager (the person 1 level above the hiring manager).
- When John N interviewed at VMware he interviewed all the way up to the VP of the (then) small business unit he would be entering. Having that conversation helped John understand even the VP wanted him to be successful, which helped sell him on the role overall.
- When John N worked at an 18-person company he interviewed with one of the owners. If you’re at a company that small there’s no reason not to meet an owner. Make sure there is a success alignment.
- Nick suggests it is more nerve racking the higher the title of someone you meet with in the interview process. John N says it can be but that people tend to treat executives like wild bears.
- John N worked for a class C zoo at one point in his career that had bears. The training they took taught you to stare down a charging bear.
- John also spent time as a hiking guide. That training for bears advises you to make yourself big and to make lots of noise.
- "Those execs, maybe they are like bears, but they are more like the bears in the wild…People who are VPs are not all out to get you or eat you….They have kids. They are normal people." – John Nicholson, on interacting with executives and facing our perception of them
- If a new executive comes in, learn about their career and how they got to where they are today. Try to make a connection with that person, and give them a chance to do some mentoring. It may open them up a bit.
- "Flip the script a little bit. You’re not a good vice president or you’re not a good senior director if you haven’t been a good mentor." – John Nicholson speaking to executives and leveraging them for mentorship
- If an executive barks at you like a bear, you know you don’t want to work at that company.
- John N has worked for companies where he could go ask the CEO why the company ran the way it did and get good feedback. He tells us that during the hiring process we may have access to more people like this than we might after becoming an employee (i.e. executive leaders wanting you to follow a chain of command with lower levels of management first).
- John White suggests if we are speaking with a senior director or VP it’s really a vibe check point in the process and not to override the hiring manager’s decision.
- John N says they will be the person who makes your manager fire you if they decide they need to save budget in the future. In large companies it’s generally somewhere up the management chain where a directive is given to trim budget by a certain amount (usually at the VP level, possibly senior director). It is rare that your manager ever actually wants to fire you.
- "I like to say culture comes from the top." – John Nicholson, speaking about executives of companies and their influence on the overall company culture
- Listen to John N’s comparison of two different CEOs, their lifestyles, the type of books they might write, and how it might affect your decision to join a company.
- John White reiterates the vibe check is two-way. The high level manager / executive who is interviewing you is looking for red flags, and we should also be checking to see if we would be ok working for the person one level removed from our direct manager.
- We don’t need to share our life story in these types of conversations or share everything we were frustrated about from previous employers. Restraint is needed in these situations, but we also don’t want to interview as one person and show up as someone entirely different. Show the person interviewing you some of who you are, and always be working on yourself.
- "Be yourself, but be a good person." – John Nicholson on the person we should be when interviewing
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Mentioned in the outro
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Nick says the advice on interacting with executives sounds similar to what Anudeep Parhar shared in Episode 209 on bringing a point of view and something to ask.
- For more ideas on questions to ask in interviews, check out some of the questions John White wanted to ask and did ask when he interviewed for his current role at Nutanix:
- Episode 221 – John Got Hired
- Episode 222 – A Closer Look at John’s Recent Interview Process
- Other episodes to check out on the tech marketing career path:
- Andy Syrewicze
- Episode 158 – The Ever-Expanding Blast Radius
- Episode 159 – In Pursuit of a New Path
- Episode 160 – Anxious Living, Worry, and Hope
- Jon Hildebrand
- Episode 37 – The Journey to Architectural Thinking
- Episode 38 – Recovering from a Layoff
- Andy Syrewicze
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 223 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_) – two technology professionals with backgrounds in IT Operations and Sales Engineering on a mission to help others accelerate career progression and increase job satisfaction by bringing listeners the advice we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we discuss John’s initial observations of the first 8-9 weeks as a first time sales engineering manager.
Original Recording Date: 05-04-2023
Topics – Episode Context, A Manager’s Onboarding, Overhead for Meetings, Attachment to the Team, One Step Removed, Tactical Differences, Closing Thoughts1:11 – Episode Context* In Episode 220 we talked about John losing his job as part of the Google Cloud reduction in force in early 2023. * In Episode 221, John shared the story of deciding what his next move would be and getting hired as a Sales Engineering Manager at Nutanix. * In Episode 222 we took a deeper look into John’s interview process and how he approached conversations with people at different organizational levels. * This week John will share his impressions of being a first time manager. It’s like an audio log of the first several weeks on the job that he can go back and reference / reflect upon later. * As of this recording John is in the middle of week 9 as a sales engineering manager at Nutanix. John says it’s been a whirlwind, very exciting, and filled with a lot of information.
2:14 – A Manager’s Onboarding* Onboarding as a manager was essentially no different than onboarding as an individual contributor. * Nutanix had a first day / first week schedule for John with training. + John was in the sales engineering training with a number of individual contributor sales engineers. This consisted of learning about the Nutanix software stack and gaining hands on experience in tinkering with the technology inside lab environments. + Previous to this John understood the products conceptually but had not been able to use them. John could, as a first time user, see that product teams had worked really hard on making the technology easy to use. * John said there was also a pilot of a new multi-week manager program that started around week 5. + Members of the program meet once per week with homework in between sessions. There is a great deal of coaching on the job of being a manager and how it is different than being a technical lead, for example. - John confirmed he’s been doing the homework, so don’t worry, listeners. + John said there was a conversation in this class that mimicked almost exactly the one about an operating manual for the self from Episode 217 with guest Kristen Carder. - The tool shared in John’s classes was very similar to the tool shared in the above episode. The idea is to share what you’re good at, how you communicate effectively, when you run into challenges, etc. John and his classmates were encouraged to fill it out and share it with their teams. Then, he encouraged them to have team members do that for themselves. + John is still in the middle of going through this program with a cohort of other first time managers. It is a remote program today. John hopes those going through the program can come together as a community to support one another moving forward. This seems to be with other employees in the US only at this time. * John’s onboarding has not been extremely different from that of an individual contributor joining a technology company. One in a similar situation would onboard, learn the company’s products, and then meet teammates. + An extra step for managers specifically is meeting the team that reports to you. John says all of this got jammed into the first week of his employment. + Managerial onboarding started a little bit later. * A first observation in the onboarding process was good support in teaching John the kinds of things he would need for his role. + All of it could not be jammed into the first week (with the exception of manager training as we mentioned), but John had access to the resources nonetheless and continues to learn about new tools via the manager training program. * John had not met his team during the hiring process (not normally something that happens to have a potential manager meet team members during the interview process) and only met them during his onboarding. In his personal experience, John does not recall meeting a potential new manager before they got the job.
7:39 – Overhead for Meetings* John’s second observation is the overhead of having a lot of meetings. * John started out with 30 minute 1-1 meetings with his direct reports and has had to extend them to 45 minutes. This required some additional calendar management. + John has 9 direct reports. At 45 minutes each, that is 6.75 hours total. * John also has a weekly meeting with his team of direct reports. * John is covering 2 different sales managers and attends their weekly team meetings with the extended sales teams (salespeople, field marketing, channel sales managers, etc.). * John’s direct manager has a meeting every other week. And there is also a sales leadership meeting John attends plus forecast calls each week. * John also has a 1-1 with his boss each week. * This totals to about 20 hours or more of meetings in a week. * John also has 1-1 meetings with each of the sales directors with which he partners. * There are people who offered to mentor John, and he has not put weekly 30 minute meetings with them on his calendar just yet but feels he should. These are experienced managers (not necessarily in the same time zone) whose calendars are also quite full much like John’s has become. * The time John spends in meetings makes it challenging to spend time on the outputs and deliverables for which he is responsible (as a result of being in the meetings described earlier) while also learning new things. This was not something John anticipated. + John feels this will get better with time. He may become more skilled at 1-1 meetings and be able to fit those into 30 minutes instead of 45, for example.
11:41 – Attachment to the Team* John had a very quick ramp up to an emotional investment in the success of the team and the individuals on the team. + As a manager of these people he expected to be invested in their success, expecting it to be true intellectually but not realizing / anticipating how quickly he would become emotionally invested in their successes as individuals and as a team. + John says he needs to own the team culture or at least act as the guardian and director of it. + The individuals on the team contribute to execution of the culture just as much as John if not moreso because there are more of them. + It’s the individual relationships that normally 9 weeks into getting to know someone John might not have expected to be as attached to the success and career of team members as he’s become to this point. Their success has become extremely important to John. + John has a strong sense of purpose about all this. His primary job function is the success of the individuals and the success of the team. + John isn’t sure if he’s embarrassed or shocked by the fast emotional attachment but feels a little vulnerable saying it out loud. - The team members are extremely competent, hard working people who have a difficult and ambiguous task to do. It can be both infuriating and thrilling to be in the sales engineer role. John wants his team to do really well and know that he as the manager has their backs (which will take time to prove to them). - "Anybody can say words. It’s the actions to back that up that matters." – John White on having his team members’ backs * It will be interesting to see how this evolves over time and how it affects John over time.
15:37 – One Step Removed* The next observation was the reality of being one step removed from the business of helping to sell product. + John’s job as a sales engineer was already one step removed from the actual sales process. He wasn’t negotiating discounts, pricing tiers for products the company sold, or understanding the way a company procures products. John was focused at the technical level (technical validation). + It was already technical validation of solutions, making solutions, building technical relationships. * Now, instead of doing the work he was doing as a sales engineer, John is helping a team of people who are doing the work that is sales engineering. + It is rare that John will be called in to build or maintain a relationship as described earlier. Intellectually, John knew this would happen, but the experience of it happening is different than he expected. + John misses the very specific kind of interaction you have with customers as a sales engineer. And John has a new set of customers which are his reports (and to some degree the upstream sales organization). + John still attends events and gets to meet customers, but his team owns the relationship with the customer while he takes a back seat. John’s team members know what customers need from him as the manager and they know their customer’s needs much better than John would. They direct how they want him to interact with customers and help him understand what the customer needs to hear / understand from someone at his level. - John feels it should be rare that he is the most important one in a meeting with a customer. It’s important for him to have as much context as possible from the team who owns the relationship with the customer. * John isn’t just covering a single territory / set of customers like he was as a sales engineer. The customer base he covers is spread across two sales regions and many team members. + There is no one customer he will be close with immediately. In these situations John is one step removed and is there to maybe own a relationship for a time and hand it back to the team he supports who formally owns the relationship with the customer. + "It’s an interesting thing to know that is going to happy and a different thing to experience it." – John White, on being one step removed from customer interaction + Nick says this is The Matrix effect and that no one can be told what The Matrix is. You have to see it (or in John’s case experience it) for yourself much like being a parent. + John thinks back to what Don Jones said about not knowing if today was a good day for a while as a manager because your success is dependent upon others. This was advice shared in Episode 137 and Episode 138 on a manager’s measure of success. - Don said it, and now John is living it, which is a different experience than John has had previously.
21:36 – Tactical Differences* John is responsible for owning a team meeting agenda. That means having productive and meaningful meetings which add value to people’s week and encourage fruitful discussion, something that isn’t just another meeting people have to attend. + Being able to run an effective meeting is a skill, and the process of owning it is different than just showing up and wondering what you will talk about. You need a plan and some effort before the meeting to make it effective. * Performance reviews began recently. John had written performance reviews in the past but feels it is an entirely different thing to have a team’s performance reviews be your responsibility. It’s pretty daunting to have this responsibility. + Going into the process John did not know the criteria by which his team was being evaluated. There should be some sort of objective criteria in any process that indicate someone is doing well at their job. John knew what the job his people did was, of course, but not the criteria. + John knew the Google methodology to explain performance of individuals to leadership but had to go and research the Nutanix methodology for evaluating sales engineers. + This process was a journey, and it took time for John to find out the proper criteria. It probably happened a week or so before this recording. - Nick suggests it would also be good to know how these criteria map to different job levels. John says you would need to know what each of the criteria look like at a particular level (sales engineer, senior sales engineer, staff sales engineer, etc.). - If someone wanted to be promoted and knew the criteria at each level they could show how they are currently performing skills desired at the next level for their job role. + John says the difficulty finding the criteria may have been due to the process changing a little bit. + John trained on the evaluation criteria and is working to incorporate the criteria into 1-1 sessions once per month to enable discussions about skills for promotion with team members. For those who are not looking to chase a promotion right now, it’s an open discussion on ways John can help. + John reiterates that some people may need to tread water for a while, and that’s ok. Maybe your life situation dictates that training on new products and serving your customers is all you can do right now. This is where John was when his daughter was born last year, so he understands. + Finding out where each person is (i.e. getting a baseline), documenting it for a shared understanding, and then consistently checking in with each person can help both John and his employees decide on next actions. If someone wants to get promoted to the next level John can then help that person create an actionable plan. + Nick is happy to hear John is having career conversations with his team members and would encourage listeners to go back and revisit Episode 45 on career conversations with your manager. John says he’s not sure if this process of career conversations was formalized before but added these as something he does with his team immediately after getting into the role. * John has also had a person resign and move to a different company. It turned out to be a really good thing for the person in question, but it put John into hiring mode. + Though this was unexpected, John was fully supportive of the person’s career and asked what he could do to help. + It is part of the job for John to hire people. He needed to start a cycle of getting approval to hire someone, recruit for the position, do interviews (initial screening interviews, informational interviews, and the formal interview process). + There was a little pressure to hire someone quickly because the company was about to pass a financial quarter boundary. When you pass a financial quarter boundary usually budgets are re-examined, and it can create more difficulty than if an offer has already been extended. + It was about a 30 day gap between when John received approval to hire someone and they wanted all open positions to have an offer sent. John could not meet that boundary in this case. But overall the situation added some pressure John had not anticipated. + The process of hiring when John knows he is the one responsible for the output and performance of the person is a little different from being emotionally separate from their performance if the person is hired. - At Google John did a lot of interviews for prospective sales engineers (or customer engineers at Google). He was evaluating them on whether they could do the job at a specific seniority level, but he remained professionally detached in a way. - That scenario was different than hiring someone who reports to you (as the case would be now), whose progress you oversee, and the decision around which you as the manager are ultimately responsible for if things do not work out. It could be devastating for an individual to join a company and find out later it was not a good fit. + Nick asked John how much control over hiring process steps managers have. - John says usually there is a template for the process given, and the manager could then say they may want to bypass a specific step because the role or the people involved don’t justify having it. + John feels the hiring process can be a bit slow. He did way more informational interviews than he thought. Check out Episode 169 with guest Mike Wood in which he details what informationals with Microsoft were like. - The sales engineering role is a role people don’t know about often times. They may see the word engineer or systems engineer and be a little confused on what the job actually is / what the role does. Reading the job description is different from having someone tell you what you’re responsible for and why the role exists. - John also spend time sharing the profile of the person he was looking for to fill the role – experience with the Nutanix products / something like them in the market or experience as a sales engineer. - Nick loves this and says John gave applicants the relatable experience requirements in the process! It doesn’t make sense to keep it a secret. Every sales engineer took their first job as a sales engineer at some point, and John tells us you want to be open to people who do not have experience as a sales engineer. - John says this is an interesting position to be in and remembers the people who first hired him and gave him a chance as a sales engineer (after he had worked in IT operations for a while). Now John has the opportunity to give someone a chance as a hiring manager to dive into sales engineering. The potential impact on someone’s life is daunting to John. John knows he would become emotionally invested in a person’s success after having been through the transition from IT operations to sales engineering himself. + John has learned that in this process he must rely on multiple points of view on potential candidates. - John cannot be the one evaluating people on everything but rather needs to put candidates through a process. This process can involve multiple people with different backgrounds and points of few who will ask different questions than John would, and it is needed before John can make a final hiring decision.
36:11 – Closing Thoughts* Should Nick become a manager some day? + Nick is currently undecided. But when John talked about tinkering around with technology it got Nick’s attention in a positive way. + Nick’s wife keep telling him he’s destined to be a manager someday. Should he go back to teaching math? + Nick says there is going to have to be an element of education in whatever he does. He also loves to learn and feels the teaching and learning feed one another. - John says it is supporting people in their learning journey. People are growing and have things they need to do to support the growth, and they need help from others to support that growth. That is a state we are all in in, and ideally we have a manager supporting us there. * John wants to get to a point where he defines the growth he should be looking for but isn’t sure yet. That’s all the more reason to invest in those mentoring sessions with peers! Feedback from the team has also been a big help for John. + Maybe we can check in periodically on John’s progress over time (perhaps every 6 months)? + John isn’t sure how long it will take for him to have a different opinion on things or how long it will take for him to be in a different place of growth cycle in his current position. + For those interested in checking back in on John’s progress, let us know via Tweet or in the episode comments how often you would like to do so! John is also open to mentorship if you’re willing.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 222 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_) – two technology professionals with backgrounds in IT Operations and Sales Engineering on a mission to help others accelerate career progression and increase job satisfaction by bringing listeners the advice we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we probe deeper into the hiring process John went through at Nutanix, discussing the end-to-end process, how John prepared, what he experienced, and the advice he would give to others going through a similar situation.
Original Recording Date: 04-29-2023
Topics – Discussion Context and the Hiring Process, Working for a Former Manager, Compensation and Offer, Taking Notes in Interviews, Meeting the Team, Interviews with Upper Management, Plan for Success, Advice for Others on Manager Interviews, A Good Process1:12 – Discussion Context and the Hiring Process* In Episode 220 we talked about John losing his job as part of the Google Cloud reduction in force in early 2023. In Episode 221, John shared the story of deciding what his next move would be and getting hired as a Sales Engineering Manager at Nutanix. The intent of this week is to dive deeper on the interview process John went through at Nutanix and see how it lines up with the advice from our career foundation series recently and the episodes on interviewing: + Episode 205 – Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 1 + Episode 206 – Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 2 * John tells us the structure of the hiring process was well established from the first informational call. + For more on what an informational is, check out Episode 169 with guest Mike Wood in which he details what informationals with Microsoft were like. + The hiring manager (a sales engineering director at Nutanix, and former manager of John’s at a different company) had reached out to John. When they had a discussion, it covered what the open position for sales engineering manager would look like and what the interview process would be like if John was interested. + Once John understood the interview process, he felt pretty good about it. + John says it’s important to try and figure out in these early conversations if you’re walking into a disaster or if you’re walking into something for which you are not qualified. - This would be a first time manager position for John, and he was sensitive to the latter situation. - John generally trusts the people in his network not to bring him into a bad situation. - People in your network usually reach out to you because they have a problem to solve, and that’s not something they generally want to do if they are on their way out / in the process of leaving. - One should always ask questions about the opportunity to ensure the situation is a good one. * There were two things going on in that first call. + John wanted to know what the opportunity was and if it was a good fit for him. + The hiring manager was trying to figure out if John was interested and if it would be a good fit. A hiring manager may reach out to someone who has worked for them before, and it might not be a good fit.
5:09 – Working for a Former Manager* Are there nuances / important points of consideration in working for the same manager again at a different company? + John says yes. He has no idea what went on after he left a previous company to go in a different direction. + Maybe the level of trust he and the former manager had needed to be revisited, re-examined, or rebuilt as a result. This is all part of due diligence to think about in a general sense for anyone in a similar situation. + Going into the process John had a level of trust that what he knew of his former manager was probably still true. + "When we worked together we worked together well, and we would probably still work together well." – John White, on considering working for a former manager at a different company + There are always questions to ask in these types of situations. - How would the hiring manager picture John succeeding knowing that he would be walking into a first time manager role? - Would John be setup with some mentors to help guide him in addition to his manager? + John would recommend asking these same questions (or forms of them) if changing companies or changing roles within the company where you work today. - If you haven’t worked with this specific technology before, what are the ideas a potential manager has so you can succeed? Bring some of your own ideas to the conversation as well. + Part of the questioning is a presumptive close. Notice John used phrases like "when I come, what would that look like?" If you start talking to people as if you are coming, they begin to think of it that way as well. - Nick says this sounds like what Bret Hill had to say regarding mindfulness in interviews in Episode 192. - John says the people he spoke with during this process operated within a sales organization, so it is not like they had not seen this tactic from interviewees. And they may have used the same tactic on John.
8:27 – Compensation and Offer* The recruiter was in charge of scheduling and facilitating the next set of calls John would have with people within the interview process defined by the hiring manager. * Discussing compensation was part of John’s vetting the situation. John shared what he was making at Google Cloud (including base and variable compensation components). This did not raise any red flags on the Nutanix side, so John moved forward in the process. * John asked about other benefits that are part of a compensation package also such as insurance, wellbeing allowances, 401K, etc. Much of this information was publicly available. + Many public companies will speak to these as part of their recruiting package to entice candidates to find a position at the company. * In John’s hiring process he was not getting real-time feedback on interview performance specifically, but people did make suggestions on what others he would speak to later in the interview process would care about as it related to his experience in certain areas. * After interviewing with the hiring manager, the first round for John consisted of… + Discussions with two regional directors of sales he would be paired with if he were to get the job + A sales engineering manager who would be a peer under the hiring manager * After raising no red flags during the first round of interviews, the next round of interviews for John consisted of… + The VP of sales to which the two regional directors mentioned previously reported + The VP of sales engineering to which the hiring manager reported + John perceived these discussions as a final vibe check and the leaders getting a feel for what he was about as a person. * John tells us the process described here is fairly typical (talking to the managers of the people you would be working with) and parallels what a sales engineer might go through but at one level up since John was applying for a sales engineering manager role. + For sales engineers specifically, often times one will have a technical interview with a member of the team and then possibly an interview with the sales manager of the salesperson you would potentially be partnering with. + You might even have an interview with the person you would be paired with directly (if that person is known in advance). + The final check might be an interview with the manager of the hiring sales engineering manager and then maybe a sales leader one level up from the sales manger mentioned previously. * Nick has seen instances where a verbal job offer was made by a hiring manager with compensation package that someone can agree to take or discuss further. Or, this news may be delivered by a recruiter. + Usually once the candidate agrees to the verbal offer, a written offer is issued. + John says the verbal offer came through the hiring manager in this case. The numbers made sense, and John remembers it being smooth sailing from there. + John was up front about his expectation early on in the hiring process for it to make sense to move forward. This paid off. + John wants to acknowledge that he feels like he was in a privileged position. John came from a company that paid top of market, and he was earning top of market. + John wanted to find the right position…not just the first position or any position. Becoming a first time manager was enough to encourage John to take a deep breath before saying yes (making sure that the compensation and the opportunity were right). + To a certain degree there are a limited number of people who can apply for and be qualified to fill these roles (i.e. a supply and demand issue). John didn’t approach this as holding out for the maximum compensation he could get right now as this puts the hiring manager in an awkward position to have someone be an immediate top performer - John knew he was not a seasoned manager and kept that in mind. - John believed in his abilities and was joining near the end of a fiscal year with a promotion likely not to come before being there at least through an entire fiscal year cycle (likely 1.5 years away). That would give him enough time to execute on being successful in the role.
16:27 – Taking Notes in Interviews* All of John’s interviews were remote. Not everyone involved in the process lives in the same place (especially since John would map to people leading multiple regions), and conducting interviews remotely made more sense. * The interviews were Zoom meetings rather than direct phone calls. John feels he has become a camera on kind of guy from his time at Google Cloud. * John took meticulous notes during each of the interviews in the process, feeling he may have learned this at Google Cloud because of the need to take them while conducting interviews. + At Google Cloud, John had to evaluate candidates based on what was said during the interviews he conducted. + John wanted the notes from interviews during the Nutanix process to see if he could extract patterns to learn from, to understand what interviewers might be probing for, and to remember what was discussed t a later time. + Did John use the smart notes methodology for note taking? - See Episode 156 for more on the smart notes methodology. - John is not sure how first person notes of this nature would be recorded with the smart notes methodology, but John did record his notes in Obsidian, creating structure and links to and from each set of meeting notes to a centralized table of contents. - Applying the smart notes methodology here would be something like going back to extract additional lessons from the interview notes by learning from the structure and the way questions were asked. Maybe John should go back and do this? + Nick loves to take notes in interviews as well (but might not do it the same as John). He likes to have video on one screen and notes on a second screen, usually communicating to people he will be taking notes during the conversation. + Nick advises if taking notes at an in-person interview it may be less distracting to write them on paper on or a tablet. It could get distracting if you open up a computer in that meeting. + John would not normally ask for permission to take notes but rather believes in an interview it may be implied that both parties are taking notes. + John tends to not look at the notes while he types them (which is how he learned to touch type) and focuses on trying to speak into the camera. He’s not concerned what the notes look like during the meeting and knows he can review them afterward to clean up misspellings, formatting, etc. - Nick says there will be enough to help you remember what the conversation was about this way and is much better than not taking notes at all.
22:15 – Meeting the Team* Is it appropriate to ask to speak with a member of the team you would be leading / managing in a process like this? + John says this might not work. It depends on the organization, but the question is more about what you might hope to get out of that discussion. + If John had not known the hiring manager and had noticed some red flags during the interview process, he might have asked to speak to a member of the team or asked for a follow up with the hiring manager to ask more questions addressing his concerns. + John definitely wanted to understand views of the people on the team needing a new leader (in aggregate and not individually) from the hiring manager and regional directors. - John was told the team was made up of pretty seasoned professionals who did not need a lot of performance management but may need help, coaching, and brainstorming assistance. - John knew he was not walking into a situation with an immediate need to manage someone out of the company. * Nick says he likes that John got a feel for team strengths and weaknesses, and he could combine that with his own strengths and weaknesses. + John went into each interview with what he felt he could bring to the team if they chose to hire him for the role. - John felt he could bring a sense of structure (something he has had to bring to his own process during time spent as an individual contributor). He would not need people to use his structure but could showcase some of how he would structure things so team members could develop their own structure. - Managers need a certain level of insight into the team’s projects. It helps if there is a mutual understanding of how team members keep records so John as a manager can get an update without having to call or instant message a team member.
25:50 – Interviews with Upper Management* Speaking to people with higher level titles in an interview process can cause nervousness. Did John approach these conversations differently than the conversations with the hiring manager and peer sales engineering manager? + Johns says he doesn’t think it made him nervous to speak with people having higher titles. In the sales engineering line of work interaction with people at these levels happens pretty often whether it be a VP at a customer or inside your company. - A VP inside a software company may have information on the strategic direction of a product that they deliver to an account team or to the customer, for example. - "A VP is just a person with a title who has an increased level of scope and coverage." John White + Generally the higher up you go in an organization the less tactical and more strategic things get. John assumed this would be the case in his discussions during the interview process and that these people where trying to determine if having John be a sales engineering manager would meet their strategic needs. - John needed to be open and honest on what he’s about as a person and tailored this to what he felt the strategic needs of the organization looked like. - John was also not shy about asking questions related to the strategic vision. Would their strategic vision be at odds with what he could provide as a new sales engineering manager? The answer to this question might have made John decide this was not a good fit for him. Listen to the examples he gives. - Fortunately, John found this was a very good fit. The executives he spoke with were very strategic individuals who knew the talent in their organization well, valued it, and did not feel like they needed to micromanage the tactical details at the front line level from the VP seat. + Every time John spoke with someone he reiterated his interest in the role and that he would be a first time manager if he gets the role to make sure everyone understood. The more John learned about the opportunity, the culture, and the strategic direction of products the more he was interested. + For John the goal of these discussions was to get questions answered on the company’s strategic direction, the strategic opportunity, the vision from leaders for the success of front line managers like John would be, etc. John felt all this needed to be out in the open up front. + Nick feels like this goes back to what Neil Thompson shared with us about individual contributors not being well prepared to have a conversation with somoene at the executive level. John had a little bit of experience here from interactions with customers and internal discussions at previous employers. Check out these episodes for more detail: - Episode 193 – Communication for Specialists with Neil Thompson (1/2) - Episode 194 – Question Askers and Problem Solvers with Neil Thompson (2/2) * What about overcoming nerves when speaking with someone in these higher levels of management? + John says start with having empathy with that person (the executive with whom you are speaking). + In doing this, we want to try to understand what that person provably cares about hearing from you. - Suppose a front line salesperson is covering 5 customers. This is representative of the person’s reach. - A sales manager could have 10 people on their team, for example, and covers up to 50 customers. - When this happens you lose track quickly on the fine grained detail except maybe the top 5 deals. - Then go up one level to a sales director or VP. They can probably only keep track of the details of say 5 deals out of that entire scope. They cannot afford to be tactically involved in everything. There is not enough time. - These folks need to steer a much larger ship, keeping an eye on the strategic direction of the business so the lower level tactical items can take care of themselves. - The scope of these people could be region of a country (i.e. south region), a specific customer segment across a country, or even multiple geographies / continents. - As someone’s scope increases the ability to get down to fine grained details gets untenable. - If you go up another level you may have leaders from multiple customer segments (each segment being a fairly large sales business on its own) reporting into an executive leader to discuss challenges and actions being taken to stay in line with current strategic direction. - In the interview process one could be speaking to a leader of a business unit at a non-technology company (or an organizational leader as we might call them). So the advice above certainly applies in a general sense.
35:51 – Plan for Success* John referenced getting guidance on a 30/60/90 day plan for success from Manager Tools. How much detail did John put into this as he wrote it out and as he communicated it to people in the interview process? + This type of plan generally will have the same structure, and it follows a similar pattern to skill acquisition. + The first step is imitation (30 days). The second step is when you get to small variations (60 days). The third step is when you try to inject your innovations (90 days). - It’s possible the time periods for each step could be longer than a 30-day window. - Hopefully nothing big needs to happen in the first 30 days. In everything that John has read, managers need to push back against getting hired and then needing to fire people almost immediately. It is an awful situation and does not make a great deal of sense. And it’s a giant red flag and may be a sign not to take the job! If firing a bunch of people is something the company wants to do, they should do it before you show up. - Ideally you want the breathing space when you begin as a manager to allow the business to operate as it has been to this point for the first 30 days. Learn some of the context behind the way things are during this time. Maybe you could make small tweaks during that next 30-day period or make larger changes in that 60-90 day window. + At the time of this recording, John is in his 9th week on the job, and he is still in the small changes phase. - John knows he may not have enough context on everything that went into creating a certain policy, etc. - Some things John assumed needed to be instituted right away like weekly 1-1 meetings. He found these needed to be extended to 45 minutes instead of 30 because of time constraints.
39:14 – Advice for Others on Manager Interviews* What would John tell someone else interviewing for a first time manager role? + John isn’t sure if he’s in a position to offer advice yet. + John has some reflections on what the job is like, and these feed directly into advice we have previously given, such as… - Listen to Don Jones reiterate that managing people is a different job! The manager does a different job than that of the team(s) they manage. + A big chunk of John’s time on a weekly basis is spent in meetings with the individuals he manages (1-1s and the team meeting), meetings with his peers, leadership meetings, and then meetings with his peers and both his and his peer’s reports. - Individual contributors might have a team meeting they attend and then some calls about active project work. p John’s meetings are at a larger scale than his reports. - The number of meetings doesn’t give John time to do any sales engineering, but he also did not expect to do be a sales engineer as a sales engineering manager. What John can do is ensure his responsibilities up the chain of command as a sales engineering manager. + Keep in mind the job you are interviewing for as a new manager is not the job that you have been doing. Everything you do as preparation should be about the job you want to take as a result of the managerial interview process. - Preparation should be things like building relationships with upstream managers, understanding what those managers care about, explaining what value you would bring to managing a team (thinking of any team you could manage and not just one), etc. - John’s strengths are empathy and organizational structure. He can bring those to managing a team anywhere to add value.
42:47 – A Good Process* How can we take away some of the pressure we’re putting on ourselves in the interview process / when looking for a job? + John has empathy for anyone going through the interview process or who has been laid off (each of which can be traumatic). Even just the decision to make a change from what you’re doing today can feel traumatic. + Telling someone to take the pressure off themselves doesn’t really help. John would like to share his viewpoint of why putting pressure on yourself does not actually help you. A certain level of detachment will actually help. + "You have to be attached to having a good process. You can have a great interview process and not get the job. And you should be ok with that." – John White - What else can you do except have a really good process of preparation that involves researching the people you will be speaking with, following up with them and thanking them, and answering questions you’ve been asked. - You can control things like the above in the interview process. The company may have a better candidate. You cannot control their decision. - "All you can control is your process. So have a good process, and then repeat that process. Document that process. Make sure that is a process you can execute over and over again. And learn to detach yourself from the company’s decision to hire you or not hire you…because that is not where your success is. Your success is ‘did you have a good process?’" – John White, on the importance of a good preparation and execution process when it comes to interviews - A decision not to hire someone may feel personal, but it really is not. - Nick says it’s very hard to do, but if you focus on the preparation, it gives you less time to mentally spin out of control on the "what ifs" and helps channel the effort into what you can control. + You may have to go after a job you really want multiple times. Neither Nick nor John were hired as solution engineers the first time they applied. - If you make it to the final round of interviews for a job, you are one of at least two the hiring team think can do the job really well. It may come down to specific expertise or background needed, etc. * Check out Episode 83 to hear Brad Pinkston’s viewpoint on candidates who make it deep into the hiring process. - Making it to a final round of interviews and don’t make it, you still had a really good process. Maybe you can iterate that process and even improve it a little for the next time. * "Independent of the outcome, maybe you can still be better." – John White on process over outcomes * Be sure to listen to our episode on process over outcomes as a compliment to this episode! - Try to make a connection with people during the process. Even if you don’t get this job, a hiring team member may advocate for you to get another position down the road or provide valuable feedback on what you can do better. * You can also maintain a relationship with someone you meet during the hiring process without an expectation that they will give you anything in the future.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 221 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_) – two technology professionals with backgrounds in IT Operations and Sales Engineering on a mission to help others accelerate career progression and increase job satisfaction by bringing listeners the advice we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we walk through John’s hiring process after being laid off, the options he considered, the questions he asked in interviews, his mindset, and the end result of the offer he accepted.
Original Recording Date: 04-22-2023
Topics – Focusing on What’s Next, An Unexpected Call, Points of Consideration, Attitude of Openness, Reflections on the Interview Process1:11 – Focusing on What’s Next* If you missed Episode 220, go back and give it a listen. John discussed what it was like to get fired and how he processed the event. This week John is going to tell us about getting hired and things he did to land the job. * When you’re coming off the shock of being fired there is a great deal of processing to do. + One advantage John had was being fairly emotionally even. He didn’t have an existential crisis over the whole thing. He was able to process the question of what’s next fairly quickly and easily. + John had options. After being a sales engineer for several years, he considered sales engineering management (managing a team of sales engineers) as one option and felt he could be good at it. - And let’s not forget that John needed to learn about saying smart manager things as part of this. + Another option was to expand into being a sales engineer in a different area of technology that would push John’s knowledge boundaries. Possible areas of expansion could be analytics, business intelligence, machine learning, or artificial intelligence. + John could also look for sales engineering roles that focus on a different industry or type of customer such as healthcare solutions or ERP solutions. + Should John have considered starting a media company called Nerd Journey? - John certainly had some relatable experience but discarded this idea pretty quickly since he and Nick didn’t get into doing the show to make it a business. - Monetizing the show through paid coaching or something like it was not really what John had set himself up to do. + John could have moved to another hyperscaler like Amazon or Microsoft.
5:33 – An Unexpected Call* Before the layoff happened, one of John’s former managers reached out to him about a sales engineering manager role in the bay area, so in many ways it was top of mind and heated up even more after the layoffs happened. + John says he would always take a call from this specific former manager (highlighting a previous very good experience). + John had let this manager know while still working for her that he would be interested in pursuing sales engineering leadership roles. There were no in-depth career discussions about it, but it was something John brought up in conversation. + And when a slot opened up, this manager remembered the conversation and reached out to John. + This is the position (sales engineering manager) at Nutanix that John applied for (and landed). He’s about 7-8 weeks into the role at the time of this recording.
7:13 – Points of Consideration* There were some things John had to consider when coming to a company like Nutanix. + Nutanix competes with VMware, a former employer of John’s. John still has great relationships with VMware personnel in his area and needed to consider where he might overlap those people, if it would cause competition with them, and whether it would cause friction in personal relationships. - John keeps in touch with former co-workers and has good relationships with them. Once he knew the direction he was going to go he reached out to let those people know. - It might have been different if John was to be the one directly involved in competition with former co-workers, but in this case he would be slightly removed from direct involvement and only assisting people in that competition as a sales engineering manager. + Making the move to a different company was potentially a cut to the high end of what he was making. - John was working for a company that was paying at the higher end of the pay band for individual contributors at Google Cloud, and almost any other company where he could work was a potential pay cut. - Nick mentions Don Jones shared in Episode 137 that managers at lower levels may make the same or more than individual contributors at higher job levels. See also Episode 138 for the rest of the interview with Don Jones. - John says a manager may make a higher base salary than an individual contributor but likely would have a variable part of their compensation that isn’t going to go as high as in the case of an individual contributor. - Sales engineers are incentivized to help their sales counterparts sell more but are not the primary commissioned people on any account. Sales engineers normally have a small percentage that is variable compensation (could be 70% base salary with 30% variable compensation, 75% base salary with 25% variable, or even 80% base salary with 20% variable). If you have a high enough base salary, you will be comfortable no matter what happens. - It’s very possible in this scenario for the individual contributor to out-earn the manager unless everyone under the manager was over achieving. John as a sales engineering manager is mapped to two sales managers’ pool of quota. - This is very much like what Don Jones said about the success of the manager being determined by the success of the team. You might not know if any given day is a good day for perhaps weeks / months. - Nick says you could look at the compensation through the lens of companies who have bonus structures that are MBO (management by objective) with the individual contributor and manager each having specific targets that affect their bonus. If each individual contributor has to complete 2 trainings to hit a specific target with more than that being overachievement, the manager has the target for the entire team added together (i.e. a team of 10 people would need 20 trainings completed to be on target). + Another aspect was the mixture of maturity on the team itself. - John was not walking into a gimme situation where everyone around him that he would be supporting and working with was tenured and high performing. - "Opportunity comes with a little bit of uncertainty." – John White - here is a flip side here in helping a team mature and helping with strategy and execution. It was a chance to grow something. - The sales engineers that would be reporting to John in this situation were mostly tenured and performed well. - John says he could see opportunities to grow but did not find anything that would rule out the opportunity. + John has had some relatable experience in the primary solution area for Nutanix (hyperconverged infrastructure). - John worked with solutions in this area from VMware as well as compute and storage abstractions at Google Cloud. - John felt he could enable himself fairly quickly on the Nutanix technical solutions, keeping in mind the job of the sales engineering manager is not to be the best technical person on the team. He was relying on his team to be technically excellent and would be in a role to support them. - Nick says the manager of a team like this isn’t supposed to be by default the most technical person on the team. John says a team may have a technical lead who is in charge of being the ultimate technical escalation point. That’s different job than the manager’s role.
16:07 – Attitude of Openness* John knew there was no single perfect opportunity for him and was open to any number of positions at any number of companies (keeping an open mind). He applied for sales engineering manager positions and sales engineer positions and felt those roles would be the ones in which he could succeed. + Nutanix happened to move the fastest for the most part. John disqualified opportunities in areas of technology where he was not passionate. + John feels like the breakdown of applications for job was about 75% individual contributor in sales engineering and 25% sales engineering management. + John got aggressive and went to LinkedIn, reaching out to people at interesting companies who did not have open positions and inquiring if they were looking for sales engineering leadership or high level sales engineers who could progress into leadership as the company grew. There was nothing really to lose by doing this. John got some responses from companies with no open positions but who thought it sounded interesting. These folks suggested having an informal conversation. * Did John communicate the intent to progress into management when he interviewed for individual contributor sales engineer roles? + John says no. He wanted to be "all in" on a specific role because it was interesting on its own. John would not apply for a sales engineer position and then tell them up front what he really wanted was a sales engineering manager position. He would apply for a sales engineering management position if that is what he wanted. + John approached this from a place of having the opportunity to do many interesting things and not just trying to get something to leverage it as a step up toward management. + As John mentioned last week, there were 3500 open roles with a title of sales engineer or systems engineer. There was no perfect opportunity but rather a spectrum of opportunity across a number of different roles. Some folks in an early stage startup might need a sales engineer that also does tech marketing and maybe also pure sales (i.e. some sort of hybrid). + Nick thinks John was channeling Jason Langer’s attitude from Episode 219 in the openness to either a management role or an individual contributor role. + John didn’t feel like management was a requirement. He just felt it was interesting. And he accepted that it might mean making less money.
22:26 – Reflections on the Interview Process* Nutanix moved the fastest, moving John through the interview process quickly and expressing strong interest. * The team shared the potential match for John and why they liked him, the challenges of the role, and the potential upside…all in very candid terms. * Before any of the other opportunities John was looking at progressed he had an offer in hand from Nutanix. It looked like a good fit in John’s eyes, and he chose to accept the position. * The interview process + John borrowed heavily from our guests who shared what it was like to interview for a manager position. + John thought a lot about adjacencies and relatable experience. - John had done between 20 and 50 interviews of candidates at Google Cloud during his time there. And he’s interviewed a few people on the air for the podcast to understand and learn about their stories. - John tells us when you are the lead sales engineer you are sometimes in charge of holding technical professionals accountable on an opportunity with only relationship power and not role power. This could be product managers, technical marketing, or specialist sales engineers and takes a lot of coordination and accountability. - At Google Cloud John had done peer reviews (assessing peers in an open and honest way to address growth areas for these folks and point out strengths). - John also acted as front line manager for a time for an individual straight out of college who was to be a sales engineer. He had to do a performance review of this person and help her grow into a more experienced sales engineer. - John also had a lot of mentorship activity during which he would help people grow through giving advice. + When applying to other positions John had other adjacencies. - In cases where John had not used or helped sell a specific company’s product he would talk about things he had focused on which were similar. Google Cloud had a data warehouse product called BigQuery, and he leveraged this adjacent / relatable experience when applying for a sales engineering management role at SnowFlake. + John also looked at weakness areas / places where he would need to grow. - Lack of experience actually doing the job of firing somoene, managing someone out of the company - John had interviewed people but had not been a hiring manager. There is a difference between being on the interviewing team and being the person who is ultimately responsible on making the call on which candidate gets hired. - At Google Cloud John participated in interviewing an extended pool of people who might be qualified to fill a title and which level they would be placed (junior, senior, staff, etc.). The goal was to evaluate if there was a good fit between the person and the position. Generally Google had high standards, and they had a continuous process running to find qualified candidates to fill the openings. - John evaluated weaknesses for any given position to which he planned to apply. And they were different in each case. + How would he succeed? - This was more focused on the sales engineering manager position at Nutanix because he was in the advanced stages of the interview process for it. - John borrowed the Manager Tools guidance of a 30-60-90 day plan. - He would need to watch and learn for 30 days and gain context. Likely he should not change anything until the 60 or 90 day point. It is important to understand why things are the way they are and why things need to change. - The 30-60-90 can be thought of similarly from the individual contributor standpoint as well. + All of these topics came up (strengths, weaknesses, experience, places to grow) talking to the hiring manager and beyond. John talked to the sales managers he would be working with, a VP of sales, a sales engineering manager who would be his peer, and a VP of sales engineering during the process. - When you talk about adjacent experience, you can share what you have done and state that it shares some overlap with what somoene is talking about. "I’ve done this thing that is like it." - As an example, a help desk person has to sell the end user on the solution to a problem which may produce a better result. That is not the same as selling a product for money, but there is a lot of overlap with this and the technical sales process (understanding the root problem and whether the portfolio of solutions can solve the problem, etc.). - The hiring team knew John would be a first time manager. John asked when it makes sense for a company to hire a first time manager and when it is a challenge, wanting to know if he was stepping into the situation where the company would hire a first time manager. - Nick had not thought about this specific question. John restates it as "here’s the profile that I fit into and where I am in my career. What situations do you think would disqualify that profile?" This helps you understand the situation you’re stepping into. + Some of John’s questions in the interview process… - What is the culture? He was looking to work with really smart people who were smart in different ways from him, having different experiences and backgrounds to cover for his blind spots. And he could help cover for their blind spots. - John wanted a culture where growth is emphasized mistakes are tolerated because there will always be mistakes. - What is the team like? What are their personalities like? - Talking to the sales managers was important to see if there was a personality clash. - What is the path to success in the role? What is the baseline, where is it starting, and what are the actions that need to happen in order to get success broadly speaking? - Specific to Nutanix, John wanted to know how the business becomes a more strategic vendor and goes up the stack from infrastructure or what the plan was to do so. He answered it for himself ahead of time but wanted to hear about things not on the website from leaders. + Nick loves the fact that John is modeling for us all to bring questions to determine if something is the right opportunity for us. * John wants to acknowledge he had a privileged position in all of this. He was financially secure in this case and could have paid his bills for up to a year if needed (all based on prior planning). + John could make sure the position in which he would be a first time manager was something in which he could execute and be successful. + John says it was his job to figure out if this was true or not. + When the offer was on the table, compensation and benefits were discussed. John came to the conclusion that the role would be a good for him. * John felt the questions he asked were pretty direct and down the middle, but he asked them in multiple ways to ensure he was getting an answer that made sense. * Nick would love to hear John’s impressions of being a first time manager at some point.
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Welcome to episode 220 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_) – two technology professionals with backgrounds in IT Operations and Sales Engineering on a mission to help others accelerate career progression and increase job satisfaction by bringing listeners the advice we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we discuss John’s experience being laid off in January 2023 and how he managed to get through it.
Original Recording Date: 04-02-2023
Topics – Context for This Episode, Financial Preparation, Professional Skills, Processing Emotions, Thinking of Options, Resume Updates, Leverage Your Professional Network1:12 – Context for This Episode* Did you notice we changed the intro a little? * John was part of the 12,000 person layoff at Google back on January 20, 2023. We’re going to talk about this. + This was the first time something like this had happened to John. While it certainly caused some anxiety, John feels he got through it pretty successfully. + Whether part of a layoff or fired for a specific situation, we’re never going to come out of something like that feeling great. + John wanted to take the time to lay out (objectively) why he got through it relatively unscathed for the benefit of others. + Some of the things we will discuss were done in the moment. Others were done in advance, and the way it is presented may not necessarily be the exact order in which things were done. + If you’ve been part of a downsizing or in a tough situation, we would love to hear feedback on what is helpful and what is not from what we share.
3:57 – Financial Preparation* The first thing that was really helpful to John in de-stressing was the financial preparedness. + We shared Episode 57 on unexpected opportunities and spoke to personal finance. John wrote some of the advice in that episode and had taken it. + John and his wife had built up an emergency fund to cover their bills and expenses for 9-12 months or more. The severance package from Google extended it even further. - John felt like they had a good buffer despite paying for health insurance out of pocket (which they were able to do no problem). - Despite this John feels like there are some things they could have done better. For example, in households where both spouses work, one might have the option to get healthcare through the other spouse’s employer in this kind of situation. John and his wife were not in a position to do this.
5:44 – Professional Skills* John was prepared with professional skills. + From late 2022 to 2023 when we’re recording this there have been a lot of software engineers on the market, for example. + The sales engineering role is always pretty difficult to fill because hiring managers are looking for a specific mix of skills in which people have experience. It can be a struggle to fill these roles even in the best of times, and because of these things, John felt he was going to be ok. + John received the e-mail from Google at 2 AM Pacific time (which woke him up), and the first thing he did was search LinkedIn for sales engineering / sales engineer roles. In the US there was somewhere between 2500 and 3500 open positions. - Obviously not all of these roles were going to be directly applicable to John, but that was enough to help him stop thinking about it (the situation). - John logged into his work laptop, said goodbye to some people, gave out his contact information, and went back to sleep. - John didn’t wake his wife up to tell her about the layoff. He waited until the next day. - It could have been ego or denial, but John felt secure in his ability to find another job. There were not 2500 people seeking sales engineering roles. It’s just not that easy to hire sales engineers, and that role suffers from talent shortages. + Nick had not thought as much about the sales engineering talent shortage but can appreciate keeping your skills sharp and your connections hot / at least warm, and using LinkedIn to your advantage. Nick calls out the Louise Bunyan episode series: - Episode 162 – A Love for Digital Marketing with Louise Bunyan (1/3) - Episode 163 – Horseback Lessons, Keywords, and Business Growth with Louise Bunyan (2/3) - Episode 164 – Secrets of a LinkedIn Expert with Louise Bunyan (3/3) + Nick would also highly endorse the emergency fund and its ability to de-stress many situations. - When John mentors people he always councils them to live within their means and even below. He suggests cutting out major spending in your life if you can until you have built up the emergency fund or until you are tracking toward it. - There is a constant urge when you get a promotion or some extra money to spend it on things you’ve always wanted (taking a special trip or making a big purchase, for example) rather than saving it. - John wants to do all those things too but prioritized the financial safety net first. John and his wife took a vacation to Hawaii a few years ago but didn’t spend safety net money to go on that vacation. - Any kind of lifestyle inflation will affect the safety net you need. When John and his family bought a new car they needed to increase the safety net to be able to pay off the car or at least have a year of car payments in the safety net. - When moving from renting a house to purchasing one the monthly cost increased, which meant they needed to increase the safety net to account for it. - The things you add to your life also have to be added to the safety net to account for it. John cites having a child as another reason he and his wife needed to consider when planning to have a safety net covering 9 months to a year of income.
10:22 – Processing Emotions* It really helped John to try and move forward instead of looking backward. * There were times where he felt low, anxious, and angry at times. But there were some things he found were not helpful. + The question of why this happened was irrelevant. It happened, and answering the why behind it would not help John move forward. Any time spent thinking about that would not help him in his goal of getting a new position. + The question "why did this happen to me" seems more relevant but really isn’t in a mass layoff situation. John’s name was on a list based on a metric somewhere, and figuring out that metric would not help with the next position (i.e. no help in the short term). - John was intentional about not spending time on this. It was not denial or that he did not care. It did not help to put effort in to figure it out. + John had been with the company for nearly 4 years / a little over 3.5 years and feels that probably wasn’t long enough to say his identity was tied to being a Google employee (as may have been the case for others in this situation who had worked at Google for many years). + John looked at what he did at Google as a position, a job, a part of his career that he was super passionate about doing. If they did not want him there he could be super passionate about helping a different organization. - And he was fine with this fact. He could move on to the next exciting thing. + None of this was easy. It was just something he found himself being a little more even keeled about. - Things like "what did I do wrong" did not make sense to think about. It does not mean he didn’t think about it, but it was not a major focus on John’s time and efforts. * Nick imagines feeling angry is quite common in these situations and mentioned Brendon Burchard (author of High Performance Habits and founder of GrowthDay) recently did a podcast on anger for people who subscribe to GrowthDay. + Burchard highlights that anger is an emotion that is also very physical. + He recommends taking a break to do some kind of exercise to help get the anger out physically before we react. + Then think about what you really want from the situation. Design a request for what you want, and try to step into your best self when you do it (having the intention of doing no harm). + John has a document he wrote that details why he was upset at what happened, why it was an unjust situation, etc. + When John was upset he would open the document and check to see if he had written down the things he was upset about, and 95% of the time they already existed in the document. Thing like… - This was a stock price move from the Google side, but it didn’t affect stock price enough. - There was a bobble with Google’s artificial intelligence demo day that negatively impacted the stock price more than laying off 12,000 people positively impacted it. + Once all those things went into a document, and then it was about 80% cleansed from John’s system. - If someone asked why the layoffs happened, John could open the document and read from it. But he didn’t have to think about those things any longer. + John didn’t feel angry enough to seek out help from other people. If something like this was consuming you, get help. - Seek out a spiritual leader, a professional therapist, a friend or family member, etc. (many options). - Get some exercise to help with the stress. + You do not want to get to the point where the anger at the organization who let you go is dominating your life because it will not help you. - Do no harm to yourself. - Focus on the things that will help you like what your next position is going to be.
17:41 – Thinking of Options* John consciously set aside time to think about what he wanted to do next. He had several options. + Going into sales engineering for another company would require determining the company where that would be. John thought about interesting competition he’s had over the years, interesting news and press, etc. - John also did a brainstorming session on the types of pain companies are experiencing and the solutions in the marketplace that address these, etc. - John feels he could have done better over time by leveraging a living document to record companies and people he might be interested in working for some day. + Another option was being a manager on a sales engineering team. - John has been considering this since before he event went to Google Cloud (for a period of about 5 years). - While at Google Cloud, John started acquiring some of the skills necessary to become a manager (but not necessarily at Google Cloud). - It seemed overwhelming what front line managers were doing at Google. It seemed difficult with a lot of split attention. - John wanted to acquire the skills of helping someone to get better, how to onboard someone effectively, how to interview people to best understand whether they could do the job expected for the company. - These were all skills John could work on that made him a valuable employee at Google and that were portable, tying back to the tenant of adding professional skills. + John looked at tech marketing and developer relations and pretty quickly discarded them (but not because he didn’t find them interesting). - These are very front line roles and you represent the company more and more and could become the face for a product or an entire suite of products, for example. - We’ve talked to many people where that is the job. - John says he just hadn’t prepared for that job. He had not put in the time and effort to be front of mind for a role like this. - John didn’t have his finger in those kinds of activates so he could easily point to them and say he’s had one foot into tech marketing for a while (the proof of work that would show someone he had been doing it). - This was part of the reason for discarding this option as a strong one. Recruiters were not reaching out to him to discuss tech marketing roles and his interest in them. They were reaching out to discuss interest in sales engineering roles. - "If that was something that I wanted to do in the future, then I would need to change how I prepared in the present." – John White, on not being prepared for a shift into tech marketing - Nick says John would have needed to gain expertise for this area while he was working on something else just like the people interviewing.
22:20 – Resume Updates* John says updating his resume was fairly easy because he had been keeping it up to date. As he accomplished things with metrics (activities that he could point to, sales campaigns he had had a technical role in or that even originated from having a technical idea, etc.) he could showcase the major job skill these led to over time. + John had been keeping his eye on SE roles and the requirements people wanted in this type of role. He looked at more of the senior positions open out there as part of this research. + On LinkedIn John didn’t make a big post about being laid off, but he did flip the setting saying he is open to work and actively looking (to increase chances of being found by recruiters). * John wrote a resume that was specific to each job type he was targeting (sales engineering and sales engineering management). + In order to do this John needed to make sure all of the experience at each of the roles he’s had were up to date. + Then he made a job skills area like we talk about in Episode 203 on his different resume versions for a sales engineer on one and a sales engineering manager position on the other. * Some people may wonder why John considered both an individual contributor and a manager position. + The natural progression of someone who is a sales engineering role is not sales engineering manager. It’s a senior version of the sales engineering role. + John says there’s roughly 40% overlap between sales engineer and sales engineering manager (knowing the technology, knowing the skills, etc.) - You have to know (as a sales engineering manager) the skills needed to be a sales engineer and what good looks like in the role. But that’s not all there is to the position. + John also looked at what a major sales engineering role would look like, which branched out to things like maybe an early sales engineering hire at a startup or a high level sales engineer at a company out of the startup phase and into the growth phase with a possible transition into an upper level manager in line with organizational growth. * For the sales engineering manager resume, John added performance management. + John had a person report to him for a quarter who was just out of Google’s recent college graduate academy. + Large organizations who recognize talent shortages in sales engineering try to grow their own sales engineering talent by hiring new college graduates and training them in the discipline. + Part of that program at Google was rotating through field assignments. - John was basically the manager who was overseeing day to day work for the person in question. + John said it was an extremely positive experience that really helped cement some of the advice he had been given about being a manager like not doing the person’s job for them, not holding their hand for longer than a couple weeks, etc. - You can help the person begin to see different ways of doing things and start to pattern match across their experiences. + These kinds of things were very much on John’s mind when he wrote the sales engineering manager resume. * For the sales engineering resume, John emphasized coming up with a whitespace campaign. + The majority of John’s customers at Google Cloud were not Google Cloud customers. + John kept track of how he matched (from a technical standpoint) solutions from Google to the industry vertical / horizontal pain point the organization that was his customer might have. He helped find the people at those organizations who might be interested in learning more about how the solutions from Google address those pain points. - John tracked the statistics of these activities over time and adjustments made to campaigns. + John was adding the new activities and their statistics since working with this type of customer (new to Google) was not something he had previously done before his time at Google. * When John applied for jobs, he customized his resume even further to address specific requirements and skills from job descriptions for a specific company. + This involved sometimes adjusting words to use the same terminology or say something in the same way the job description he saw would say it.
30:19 – Leverage Your Professional Network* John went to his professional network. This means he first took the time to create that network. * John uses LinkedIn quite frequently to connect with people. + It’s helpful to keep up with people at his employer, especially after they move on to other roles. + John also makes it a point to keep up with people in the channel partner community as well. * John also thought about where the people in his network have worked and where they are now. That gave him an idea of the variety of organizations to which he might be able to get a recommendation. * Every time a recruiter had reached out to John in the past and the person had done their research, he tracked them in a list. + In the initial interaction he had told these people the position was interesting but that he was not on the market at present and happy where he was. + John reached back out to those recruiters and let them know his situation had changed and what he was targeting in a next job. - This ended up producing a number of interesting interactions and interviews. * John took the list of companies from his brainstorming session and reached out to people he knows who work for those companies to see what it’s like there. And if it sounded interesting he would ask that person for a referral. + This avenue also produced a number of interesting interviews. * You have to create that network ahead of time, and you have to keep it active over the years. + Reach out to people you know who switch jobs. Ask if you can help them in some way and to learn about what they are doing and how it is going. + You may be able to introduce that person to someone who can help them down the road. + Growing and maintaining your professional network may seem challenging, but it’s important, especially if you need to call on it to get help in an unexpected employment situation. * John feels maybe he should have made a LinkedIn announcement post but never felt stressed enough to need people’s sympathy at the time. He was looking for active help. + He was getting a little bit overwhelmed with active help in some ways. + There were a number of people reaching out to John who noticed he changed his profile to turn on the open to work flag, offering to help. + John considered making an announcement post but was too overwhelmed by already getting help. + Apart from this, people who knew John was at Google reached out to him about news of the layoff. * Many people were notified about the layoff at 2 AM. By 6 AM, everyone was frozen out of their accounts (no access to contact list, calendars, e-mail). + John managed to get into some teams group chats after seeing the notification between 2 and 2:30 AM about the layoff to say goodbye. + He doesn’t remember if he put his personal contact info in there for people to get in touch with him later. + It wasn’t like he had put in his two weeks notice and could send everyone his contact info on the last day. John found out unexpectedly, and it was too late to think of everything. + This event impacted people negatively in different ways. John still thinks of himself as fairly fortunate. * John did find a new position and was about 4-5 weeks into it as of this recording. You’ll have to wait for a future episode to hear the remainder of the story.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 219 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of a discussion with Jason Langer, exploring his various stints as a people leader and the reasons for doing it, his move into product marketing and what that means, being technical in the tech industry, and how a leaving a job that made him unhappy and taking a break helped him bounce back even stronger.
Original Recording Date: 01-12-2023
Jason Langer is a Solutions Marketing Manager at Pure Storage who focuses on Pure Storage products as they relate to both VMware and cloud solutions. You can also catch up with Jason on Twitter – @thejasonlanger. If you missed the first part of our conversation with Jason, check out Episode 218.
Topics – Reflecting on Multiple Experiences as a Manager, Another Type of Management, A Move to Product Marketing, Marketing is Like Cloud, Being Technical In Technology, A Break in the Action, Boundaries and Going Back to Work3:24 – Reflecting on Multiple Experiences as a Manager* Jason was managing those business relationships with technology partners for the VAR at the same time he was managing the SE team (sales engineers / solution engineers). * Jason has managed people a few times in his career and is something he’s never aspired to do. Some people want to be in leadership and want to climb that ladder. It is not something Jason has ever felt compelled to do. * The times when Jason has managed people, it was sort of asked of him. * When Jason was director of the SEs within the datacenter space for the VAR, it was a mixture of him being asked to do it and him basically asking for it. + He had spent so much time trying to build the practice for end user computing. Now instead of focusing there Jason was focused on anything that landed in the datacenter. + The goal was to try and replicate some of the same processes, type and format of documents, etc. they had created for the end user computing practice in this new area. + Being a people leader too was more of a meeting in the middle that just made sense. * Another time in his career Jason was asked to manage people, and he agreed to do it. + Jason says he enjoys doing it and is happy to do it, but he does not feel like he must do it. * "Right now I am an individual contributor in my current role, and which is totally fine. It’s great." – Jason Langer, on people leadership as a career path + Jason shared that when he went to interview for his current role (an individual contributor at the time of this recording), he was asked about being a manager and had to help the recruiter and others understand he was completely fine with taking an individual contributor role. * Jason feels like he did ok at people management (but is also a pretty humble guy). * When he became a people leader, Jason reached out to his own mentors (people he trusted and looked up to), leaning on his professional network, for advice and some recommended books to read. + Jason kept thinking about what he did and did not want from his previous managers. - Jason didn’t want a micromanager, but he also did not want a manager that was not engaged. - Jason wanted a manager who would support him, someone who will defend him but also let him know when he has done something wrong. + After thinking about these things they sort of became Jason’s core systems / guiding principles of managing people. - Jason tried to be as open and honest with people as he possibly could, giving people straight answers and not tapdancing around important concerns. - Jason never tried to micromanage people. He would often give people a task / something the company wanted complete and then share the due date, not minding so much how people got there. He also understood life happens and that team members need flexibility in their schedules (i.e. the illustration of needing to go pick up your kids, etc.). - "I get it. Life happens. Especially managing a team during the pandemic…whoa. That was tough. That was mentally tough." – Jason Langer - In addition to being empathetic to not making the assumption people would be working every second of 8-5 every day, Jason did communicate the expectation of hitting due dates for task completion (flexibility with some accountability). - Jason also made himself available for questions or help if people needed it. Some might need extra assistance or a midweek check in. + Jason always did 1-1 meetings with people who reported to him, scheduling for every 2 weeks but making himself available if people needed them more frequently. - One thing Jason never liked (and still does not like) was managers consistently cancelling or moving 1-1 meetings. It made Jason feel like he was not a priority. Managers and employees know the agreed upon time for these meetings. - Jason is sure he had to cancel a few 1-1s when he was managing people, but he never tried to cancel them. He kept them when he and the employee said they were going to do them at the agreed upon frequency. - The 1-1 meeting was not meant to be a status report (keeping track with other tools). People could talk to Jason about whatever they wanted. It was their time. They owned the agenda. - "Let’s have a conversation….It’s their time (the employee). It’s not my time to dictate the conversation to them. I want them to come to me with whatever they want to talk about." – Jason Langer, on the purpose of 1-1s - Jason also tried to protect team meetings. He considered it his 1-many platform to communicate priorities for the team. The 1-1 was more about what people wanted / needed from him and how he could help remove obstacles for the person. + Nick suggests a manager could come to a 1-1 and have a couple of things they need to address, but there should be more time for the employee to go through their list. - "Don’t suck the air out of the room as a manager. You have enough opportunities to usually do that." – Jason Langer, in context of 1-1 meetings - There are cases where it’s a performance issue (i.e. people not completing work as expected). - Jason has always had really good teams and has always really liked his teams. Hopefully they have liked him as well. - Jason says he tried to promote having fun now and then and does not feel you must be serious all the time as a leader.
11:33 – Another Type of Management* Was it easier to make the move to a manager role (something less technical) because Jason had an interest in business and wasn’t concerned as much with deep details on the technology? Nick’s hypothesis is that when you’ve been extremely technical, it can challenging to take what is perceived to be a "less technical" role. + Jason isn’t quite sure. Maybe he did subconsciously. + If you recall, Jason likes writing documentation (which his 14-year-old self would balk at) and structure. At the VAR, he was driving the need to follow standards and processes, and to ensure those were followed it made sense to slide certain people under Jason’s management. * When Jason became a manager at VMware, he thinks it was different. This is what Jason calls act 3 of his career where he switched over to marketing. + Jason says he had a great boss at the time who he still keeps in touch with to this day. + When Jason joined this marketing team at first there were 5 people, and it grew to 15. No manager can have 15 direct reports. + Jason’s boss and the VP above her approached him about managing people. He was grateful to be presented with an opportunity and agreed to do it because they asked. + At the same time he agreed to make the move to manage people, he asked for things. - Jason asked for his manager’s full support. He also asked that they meet to determine success criteria. - "Managing marketers is probably completely different than managing SEs. It’s not really because it’s still just people management, but I didn’t know that until I got into it." – Jason Langer on managing a team of marketers
14:05 – A Move to Product Marketing* We’ve talked to a number of guests who went into technical marketing, but that’s not the kind of marketing Jason pursued. * When Jason shares with other folks in the industry that he is in marketing, they often assume he means technical marketing. It does not, however, mean Jason is not technical. There is a difference. * Putting in 8 years at the VAR, Jason had built his career around VMware and the surrounding ecosystem. He wanted to go work at VMware specifically (or the mother ship as some call it, where he and Nick eventually met). * Through working at GCSIT (the VAR) and attending VMware PTAB (Partner Technical Advisory Board), Jason developed a lot of relationships with people who worked for VMware. + Once again Jason used that network of connections to reach out to people and make it known that he wanted to come work at VMware. + A friend of Jason’s was a vSAN solution engineer (or SE) who was about to move to a new role. This friend told his boss they should hire Jason as his backfill. + After going through the interview process Jason got the job as a vSAN SE and did it for about 18 months. * Jason wanted to work at the mother ship but didn’t want to work within a sales organization the entire time. + At the time this was the easiest path to get into the company to later try to get into a business unit. + Many times it is easier to get an optimal role within a company after getting in first (then moving around). + Jason truly believes any good SE (solution engineer) is a good marketer and feels it is part of the job (knowing how to market yourself and the company’s products). + Jason wanted to take this to the next level. He wanted to get into a business unit to focus on the positioning of products and the messaging around them as well as the personas that buy software and outcomes they are looking to gain from the software. - These are all things Jason was already doing at the VAR and as a solution engineer at VMware. Ultimately you are trying to help someone get to a business outcome. + Jason went to the VP of the business unit in which he worked and a woman named Ishen. He told them if there was an opening he would be really interested in speaking to them about what it would take to get into a product marketing role. + After a few months they reached out to Jason and mentioned there was an opening. The specific role was directed around sales enablement for products like SRM (Site Recovery Manager), vSAN, and other products in the storage and availability category. + Jason had so much experience in these areas already it was an easy transition for a first product marketing role. + Jason knew the VP (Lee Caswell) and would take him on customer visits when he was in town. Jason had a comfort level with the VP before he reached out to "take his shot" to try and get into the marketing world. + Jason refers to this as the start of act 3 of his career.
18:20 – Marketing is Like Cloud* Jason says every company does product marketing a little different. He has exposure to how it was done at both VMware and Pure (each one slightly different from the other). * In product marketing (if done correctly in Jason’s opinion) you’re kind of in the middle of sales and product management. You work with different business units also when you’re crossing the portfolio or solution boundaries. You also work with different product marketing managers as well as with technical marketing. + You need to know where the messaging is coming from (product marketing teams). + You need to know things like product features and the roadmap on what is coming from product managers. + Then you put these things together and work with sales to come up with enablement plans. You also need to decide the mediums for these enablement plans (i.e. recordings,, webinars, tests, etc.). + It’s similar to the scenario of having many masters like when Jason managed the business relationship with partners. + You’re sort of in the middle because you get to work with these different teams. You get different pieces from each. Remember that Jason likes to build things. - Jason might talk to product teams to see what the market is driving and what the feature set is. - Then he would work with product marketing to work on messaging and positioning. + What about making pretty slides? Doesn’t Jason have to make pretty slides? - Jason does create a lot of slides (presentations), and he likes making diagrams. - It makes Jason smile when he sees a slide he created used by someone else. + Being in product marketing and having all of these interactions gives you a feel for how all the different layers of the cake are being made. * To Jason, marketing is like the word cloud. It can mean many things and reminds him of the cartoon The Smurfs and their use of the term "smurfing" for so many things. + The marketing Jason did at Vmware was all internal marketing. The things he and his team produced was for the audience of internal sellers or sales engineers (SEs). + There are marketing teams that do outbound marketing as well. This would be things such as coordinating webinars, blog posts, promoting conferences / participation in them, etc. + Marketing doesn’t mean any specific thing to anyone. It’s about how the company or organization within that company implements this function. + Technical marketing teams at VMware, for example, do internal work but also do a lot of external things too. + In Jason’s role at Pure in Solutions Marketing, it’s still marketing, but he is focused on solutions (VMware and Pure Storage in this case). He does things like webinars, makes blog posts, creates the content for infographics (which someone else will make look prettier), etc. - Some of Jason’s content is also used for internal enablement at Pure. Knowing VMware technologies is helpful to Pure employees, but it is not their main discipline. - For example, Jason might share content on how VMware SRM (or Site Recovery Manger) works with Pure Storage solutions both from an outcomes standpoint and also some technical stuff. + Marketing can mean cloud depending on how different organizations treat different things. - You could have true outbound marketing consisting of people who are creating content for the company’s website. This still comes from a marketing team. - Marketing might also create campaigns. They might use data from a CRM (or Customer Relationship Management) tool and use it to create 3 different e-mail templates that target decision makers, technology practitioners, and one other type of persona. There’s a lot that goes into this. + Sometimes people will tell Jason "oh, you’re in marketing. You’re not technical." Jason says he is still technical, but he doesn’t have to do the practitioner level of technical any longer. - "I still need to know how the solutions work. I still need to know the problem that it’s solving…kind of like an architect would, which would be viewed as technical. But now I’ve got to communicate it in a different way." – Jason Langer, on being in marketing and still being technical - Jason tells us going into marketing does not mean you have to give up your technical hat to focus on things like website impressions and Twitter statistics.
24:44 – Being Technical In Technology* What would someone who is quite technical as a practitioner right now but applies for this kind of role (i.e. product / solutions marketing) need to communicate to the hiring team to demonstrate the person can do the job? Or maybe there is some step in between? + Jason says he feels like the person would have already made steps in that direction without realizing it. + For example, early on in his career when Jason was working on all the certifications, he started writing blog posts. Marketing people write blog posts. At the time he was writing these posts, they were usually how-to articles that were quite technical. + Jason was already making steps toward where he is now in certain ways. His job description said one thing, but activities like blogging were a bit of a side hustle. + If a practitioner who was a systems engineer applied for a job that wanted 4 years of experience in marketing, that resume might not reach a hiring manager’s desk. + But, if you have been doing things on the side that which are really interesting and might represent some of the experience they are looking for in a marketing type role, you have to start making those connections for people. + Jason feels that is the route he took to get into his current role. For example, Jason had done blogging. He had been on some podcasts and had spoken at conferences such as VMworld. This shows he was more of an outgoing / outbound personality who wasn’t just focused on only knowing how to tweak certain technologies. - Nick says things like speaking at a conference session shows you know how to communicate something in a set amount of time based on a specific topic. - Submitting an abstract for a conference session is someone’s marketing attempt targeted at the people who pick what gets selected to happen at the conference. - It’s not just the abstract but the title as well. You can’t just toss something out that says "best way to do X." The title needs to be carefully thought out and catchy. Jason submitted a session, for example, called "Any which Way with Tanzu," which is a play on an old Clint Eastwood movie. - Jason says sometimes we take ourselves too seriously and encourages us to market ourselves the same way we might market a conference session. + Jason has seen more people who are technology practitioners slide into marketing via the Technical Marketing role, feeling it might be an easier change. - If you are a systems administrator or engineer today, there are technology user groups for VMware, Cisco, AWS, Microsoft, and many others who are always looking for presenters and content. You can submit a session to present in one of these places. - If you start doing that, people start to recognize you. And you can send abstracts to speak at different conferences. - "You’re doing that leg work. You’re doing that homework. You’re doing that extra side work to show that’s where you want to go…because if you want to go there you’re going to probably do that anyway." – Jason Langer on doing leg work to get into a marketing role - You’re likely not going to convince yourself that you can go into technical marketing if you’ve never written a blog post or developed technical architectures. You need some evidence of technical writing skills. - Many people Jason knows who went into technical marketing led user groups like VMUG first. These people gained speaking and presenting experience from it and later presented at conferences because they were a known name / entity. - "Just like anything else, there’s extra work that has to be put into it if that’s where you want to go." – Jason Langer + Nick says maybe the extra stop in technical marketing is what allows someone to learn more of the marketing specialty before they move into more of a product marketing type role. - Jason has a friend who was once his solution engineer (or SE) for Veeam. This person was a SE at VMware who came to work for came to work for Jason as a Product Marketing Manager. - This person was a "deep product guy," wanting to know what the features were, what the roadmap was, and why those things were selected to get prioritized as part of the product roadmap. - These are the types of things a product manager does, and this person is now a product manager at VMware. Now this person is dictating the roadmap and feature set for a product he was passionate about. - There are some interesting steps here. When Jason hired this person as a product marketing manager, he had a feeling the person would do it for a couple of years and then go do something else. That’s exactly what happened. + This is similar to when Jason used to hire SEs at the VAR. - "If you’re good at this job, I only expect you to be here for 2 years, maybe 3. And the reason for that is the vendors are going to find out that you’re good. And they’re going to come poach you." – Jason Langer, speaking to SE applicants at the VAR - Jason lost employees to HPE, Veeam, and other vendors. But he sees it as a good thing because he knew the people were growing and going on to the next thing. + Jason tells us marketing doesn’t have to be the end game for him or anyone. Once you get into a business unit a whole new world of possibilities opens up. - "Having technical chops accelerates your ability to quickly impact and deliver on different things within a product group." – Jason Langer, on getting into a business unit * Nick thinks with Jason’s technical chops he could easily slide into technical marketing if he wanted or back to being a practitioner. + Jason says he still reads technical things and that we don’t have to shut off the technical part of our brain. + If you’re working at Nick, Inc. as a systems administrator, you can go become the enterprise architect. But, there are new skills you’re going to need to hone and work on. - You need to know how to write, how to create diagrams, and how to communicate. - "Now you’re selling to your internal CIO and CTOs on why you need to do something." – Jason Langer on being an enterprise architect + Being in tech doesn’t mean you have to be technical. Jason’s wife works in IT at Starbucks but does not feel she is technical. But she’s still in technology. + "You don’t have to be the speeds and feeds person. You don’t have to be the ‘I know how to configure this person.’ You can do a lot of different things in technology and still be involved in technology…and probably scratch a lot of the itches you’re looking for." – Jason Langer on technology career options.
33:29 – A Break in the Action* Jason’s 4-year anniversary at VMware was his last day there. He went to go work for a smaller company where a former manager of his was working. * This is another example of where relationships were important in Jason’s career. Jason is a very loyal person and really trusted his former manager. * Jason’s former manager had gone to another company (a smaller company) to build a product marketing management team at a company focusing on the database market and wanted Jason to come as well. + Jason had focused previous to this on servers and storage but had not focused in the database market. And he made the move. + "If you’ve been doing your career long enough, sometimes you zig when you should have zagged, and this was a scenario where I should have zagged." – Jason Langer reflecting on a career decision + Jason tells us it did not work out with some of it being him and some of it being them (this other company). + At this point Jason was starting to feel a little burned out. He had been working since age 20. The pandemic did not help matters. + Jason knew it wasn’t working out and was not happy. He had a conversation with his wife, who has always supported his career. - "This isn’t working out for me. I’m not very happy. I just need a break. I just need to collect myself a little bit." – Jason Langer on being unhappy after a career move and the next step - Jason’s wife supported this decision. * Jason took 3 months off, and it was great. + He started taking time for himself, got outside, and started going to the gym again. + Jason did all the things people say they want to do when they are working from 7 AM to 6 PM and too tired and unmotivated to do. + Jason is grateful to his wife for letting him do it. His parents are retired, lived close by, and he would pick them up and take them on road trips for a day. + One thing Jason would not let himself do was sit at home and watch TV all day. He wanted to make something of the time. This was summer time in Seattle (no excuse not to be outside). + "It was really good, and it put me into the right mindset for when I came back into the workforce." – Jason Langer on his experience taking a break from working + When Jason took the break, he did not know what he wanted to do next, knowing only that he did not want to stay employed where he was. + Similar to when he was laid off earlier in his career, Jason felt he would find something when he needed to get back to work. + If Jason was set on managing people, it makes his options automatically narrower. + "I just want to go work somewhere where I’ve got a good culture of people and I think the work is going to be enjoyable…but I’m not going to work myself to death." – Jason Langer on his mindset in approaching getting that next job - There are factors we don’t discuss here that could come into play for people like a specific salary they want or title they may be after, etc. + The only thing Jason really did think is that he would end up at VMware, a company that has been so good to him in its products that helped build his career. And he really enjoyed his time there as an employee. - But it didn’t work out this time. - Jason feels like he landed in a great spot with a great boss. And he’s in a culture he really enjoys. - "I feel very fortunate that I was able to do that break and then land somewhere that’s a really good fit…for me…hopefully for them too, but for me." – Jason Langer on finding a great job after taking a break
38:31 – Boundaries and Going Back to Work* Jason knew going into the break what was important to him. Early in his career the technology was in the top 1 or 2 spot of importance for him (something to learn, build expertise in, talk about, etc.). * This time around the technology was less important in his list (around item 5 in priority)
+ If the technology really excites you but you’re miserable at work, it isn’t worth it. Think about where the technology needs to rank to keep yourself satisfied in some other areas.
+ Jason didn’t want to be on a phone call or Zoom from 7:30 AM until 6 PM in the evening. He wanted pieces of his personal life back.
+ Nick references Brendon Burchard‘s advice to add things to your day that replenish energy if you have many things that suck it away to avoid a complete drain by the end of the day.
+ If it’s the right audience, Jason might take a conference call while on a walk (assuming he does not have to present something). He encourages us to know the audience if we are going to do this (i.e. not if there is a VP on the call, for example).
+ It’s nice to get out of the 4 walls we’re inside and go touch some grass.
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How did Jason know it was time to go back to work?
- When Jason first spoke to his wife about this, he assured her that he would go back to work at some point. They did not set a specific timeline, however.
- People had sent Jason job postings for various companies they thought he should investigate further. One of the companies was Pure Storage, and there were a few others.
- Reading the description of the job he eventually ended up in at Pure, Jason thought it would be an excellent fit.
- Jason was doing interviewing for some jobs that sounded really fun and interesting, but through his past experience in working for the VAR, he knew enough about the culture of the companies to feel they would be good places to go (based on everything he had heard).
- Once he got the offer from Pure, he asked them to delay the start date just slightly so he could round out a full 3 months off. They were fine with it.
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After coming back to the workforce, Jason has structured his schedule a bit differently. Keep in mind this might not work for everyone everywhere but is worth considering.
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The first thing Jason did was set the boundaries. He blocked his calendar to prevent taking / scheduling meetings before 8:30 AM. In fact, those get auto-declined.
- Jason tries to go to the gym every morning. That is the intention (to get some workout time in before the workday begins). He knows he won’t go at lunch or after work. Structuring this for mornings brings a greater success rate.
- Jason set this boundary day one and communicated it to his teammates. After sharing his intention to go to the gym and be ready to go by 8:30 AM, the boss and teammates were super supportive.
- Jason also tried to make sure he ended his day around 5:30 or 6 PM. It may not always happen due to the nature of work (i.e. we sometimes have to work late), but Jason tries to follow this schedule to allow himself to go touch grass.
- Jason works 100% remotely and has for almost 10 years now. He tries to allow himself opportunity to go outside or for a walk around the block.
- Working remotely like this you have to do things that will keep you from losing your mind (i.e. must keep sane since you’re not going to an office).
- Jason tells us to set the boundaries if we can up front and to know our management and greater audience.
- Now when Jason takes a vacation he turns off e-mail on his phone.
- Try to disconnect, and don’t check work messages (e-mail / Slack, etc.). If he’s off for 4 days, Jason is off for 4 days.
- "If you want me to be at 100% of what you want me to do when I’m here, I need this time to be disconnected." – Jason Langer on disconnected vacations
- Nick says if you’ve never done this (taken a disconnected vacation), you should do it!
- The above is a conversation with your manager to set those expectations.
- Jason feels like most managers are good (despite having some not so good ones in his time) and has never had one say no to this request.
- Tell them (your manager) what your plan is, and it can make those conversations about boundaries with vacation (or something else) a lot easier. It shows you at least thought it through.
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Reach out to Jason on Twitter Jason Langer if you have questions or want to follow up on this episode.
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Jason has had many people help him in his own career and is happy to pay it forward for others.
- It only took Nick bumping into Jason while he was eating lunch to get Jason on the show. Watch out for the ask to be a guest if you have an interesting story to share!
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Mentioned in the outro
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Jason adopted a similar attitude to Don Jones in regard to wanting what was best for people under them, even if it meant they needed to move on to another company or job. Check out Episode 137 and Episode 138 for more detail.
- Should we be communicating the intent behind our boundaries when we discuss them?
- Go back and listen to Episode 140 with guest Eric Brooker regarding disconnected vacations. You can also hear part 1 of Eric’s story for context in Episode 139.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 218 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of a discussion with Jason Langer, detailing his early career in phone support, learning and gaining experience in various technologies, surviving a layoff, working for a VAR (Value Added Reseller), a move to architecture, and his time spent managing the EUC practice for the VAR.
Original Recording Date: 01-12-2023
Topics – Meet Jason Langer, Hard Concepts in Simple Terms, Working for the Mouse, Asking for More Opportunities, Dealing with a Layoff, Architecture and Optimization, Manage the Practice and the People, Attractiveness of VAR Life2:45 – Meet Jason Langer* Jason Langer is a Solutions Marketing Manager at Pure Storage who focuses on Pure Storage products as they relate to both VMware and cloud solutions. You can also catch up with Jason on Twitter – @thejasonlanger. * Jason’s first tech job was doing phone technical support for a company called Sierra Online (a video game company) back in 1999 (making $6 per hour). His job was helping people make bootable DOS disks to play classic video games like Red Barron or Leisure Suit Larry. + Jason was a gamer in his youth (had an Atari 2600), and his first computer was a Commodore 64. + Jason built his first computer in the early 90s because he could not afford to buy an off the shelf model. He’s currently looking at a water cooled PC for his gaming these days. + Jason thanks his parents for getting that first computer (on which he and his brother would constantly play games). + When Jason bought that first PC, his parents co-signed on a loan for it in order to teach him how credit worked. And Jason has always been thankful for that. - Is this foreshadowing something we cover later?
6:05 – Hard Concepts in Simple Terms* In the phone support job at Sierra Online, Jason was working with end users who were game players. + Jason says it was phone support, but people were encouraged to e-mail support personnel. He would often be sharing specific DOS commands that were easier to understand if someone could see them. + Doing phone support like this made you very good at describing things. - Jason went on from here to do phone support for Starbucks. + At the time Jason worked for the video game company technologies like screen sharing and even USB did not yet exist. He was dealing with things like parallel ports in the Windows 95 / 98 days to interoperate with flight simulator games his company made. * Jason says he learned a ton from this first position, and it led to doing technical support for Starbucks stores. + In the role at Starbucks, if there was a problem with a terminal, Jason might need to walk someone through how to reboot a modem that controlled the store’s connection back to the corporate headquarters. He would have to walk the person (usually someone without a technical background) through troubleshooting processes like this using only verbal descriptions. + Other users might call because they needed help with Microsoft Office, for example. * It was about a two year period across both companies doing phone support and a great experience according to Jason. + One lesson Jason has carried throughout his career is that people who have worked in a technical support role have probably been called some of the worst things by frustrated people. He can usually spot people who have had this experience. Technical support personnel have a lot of scars from trying to help people. * Nick thinks as you solve more and more problems for people over the phone like this it becomes easier to quickly detect the level of technical savviness of the person on the other end of the line and cater your explanation to the level of detail needed. + "You have to explain hard concepts in very simple terms. And you start digging through your bag of analogies or things that are going to cross a lot of gaps for folks. " – Jason Langer on catering your technical explanation to your audience + People also may not mean the same thing when they use a word that you do. It’s good to check that.
10:56 – Working for the Mouse* Jason tells us we’re going to hear a pattern of relationships throughout his career. * "Doing phone support jobs usually only leads to potentially only more phone support jobs unless you find a way to break out of that." – Jason Langer * Being at Starbucks, Jason got into more "actual IT" or corporate IT type role. + Windows Active Directory did not exist at this time. Jason started to learn more about Netware and file shares and permissions, thinking it was kind of cool. + Jason was working graveyard shifts (or the overnight shifts) in his time at Starbucks. He bought a Windows NT 4 book pertaining to a professional certification, the Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer or MCSE. When the phone was not ringing at night, he would be studying and learning. * Jason’s brother had a friend who was a systems administrator for Disney Internet Group (which at the time was called go.com). This company (located in Seattle where Jason resides) hosted the web properties for the Walt Disney Company. + The company needed a backup jockey (someone in charge of running server data backups), and Jason applied for it and got the job. + Jason officially became the backup guy for Disney back in 2000. The servers were all physical (no virtualization in use). Jason was in charge of backing up around 2000 servers to tape , sending the data offsite, and doing recovery operations. It was here Jason started gaining experience in Windows system administration. + Jason’s pay by taking this job went from roughly $12 per hour at Starbucks to around $20 per hour here (again…in the year 2000). Often times career moves are for exposure to new interesting work but at the same time also bring more compensation. + For Jason, this time period was about learning new skills. + He worked with technologies like BackupExec and Networker to take backups, a HPE virtual storage array, and others. + "Hey, you’re the backup guy. That’s kind of data related, so why don’t you learn a little more about storage?" – Jason Langer, on being able to learn adjacent areas to backup technologies + Jason kept being presented with opportunities to learn about new technologies in this role. When asked if he could go and do it, he kept saying yes to the opportunities. - This started him down a path of a number of different certifications. - Jason remembers when the HPE SAN (storage area network arrived). The user manual was printed and sitting on his desk. His immediate thought was "I guess I’m learning this."
17:02 – Asking for More Opportunities* Though presented with many opportunities to learn new things in the early days, Jason doesn’t feel he really began to ask for those opportunities until he got a little further along and more comfortable in his career (or got his "sea legs" so to speak – possibly after he went to Microsoft). * There was a large layoff at Disney of around 40% of operating staff when the .com bubble burst (right before Christmas one year). He remembers being escorted to a large conference room one day after arriving at work to receive the news. * Jason was then unemployed and ended up getting a job at Microsoft. They were building out datacenters for Xbox Live at the time (a technology which had not yet launched), and they were looking for someone to work on the back end storage systems (SANs) to support this effort. + Feeling more comfortable after getting the job at Microsoft, Jason would ask how he could help with / get involved in certain projects. He had experience in the area and didn’t feel so much like "the new guy." - There was so much work to do. The first year it was about building out the datacenters for the Xbox live launch in the following year. + Jason was working at Microsoft as a vendor and not a fully badged employee. Since he was not a badged employee, certain projects and activities were restricted to only being worked on by in-house Microsoft employees. And Jason understood this. He has always tried to understand what is happening around him (and not assume things are there as a slight). + If you’re asking for specific opportunities and being told no, Jason says we should keep in mind management may have someone specific in mind for the project. Jason suggests asking your manager what you could to do be better positioned for the next opportunity, what you might need to learn, or what gaps you might need to fill. + "You have to take control of your career sometimes, but you also have to know when to do that." – Jason Langer, on asking for additional opportunities / work - If you’re not in good standing or something with the boss, it may not be the right time. - If it was something you really wanted to do / was important to you and you want to know, ask for those questions. This applies to promotion situations as well, for example. - There are many ways to stay active in asking for what you want. You could even offer to shadow the person who is going to be doing specific work or offer to sit in meetings and only listen. - Nick says if you do not ask for what you want, it is very possible your boss or the person leading the project does not know you wanted it. If you ask you are going to at least get an answer (which may not be what you wanted). And if the "best" option is not possible maybe some option at least is. - Jason says we should not always take it as a definitive no. Follow up and ask some questions. Each situation is different, and it may require that we accept the no / do not press to hard and move on.
23:05 – Dealing with a Layoff* Of course you take a layoff situation somewhat personally according to Jason. * In his scenario, he made it to the 3rd wave of layoffs. + At first, Jason told himself he was the only guy that did the SAN work and the backup work, wondering who was going to do that if he was impacted. That line of thinking only lasted until the 3rd round of layoffs. + Jason tells us to keep in mind that usually layoffs are not personal (unless maybe you’ve done something wrong at work). If you’re a good worker, it may just come down to number crunching in Finance. Don’t take it personally. + Jason had confidence in his skillset and knew he would find a job. + Jason was laid off in November. He and his wife had a huge Thanksgiving coming up and a huge Christmas holiday trip with family planned. + Jason knew he likely would not get any job interviews for at least a month because of the holidays. The goal in his mind was a February timeline for a new job. + Jason and his wife were careful about their spending habits, and he worked on additional certifications to stay busy. + Jason leaned on his professional relationships and would talk to others. This was before things like LinkedIn and Twitter. He ended up starting at Microsoft in January (out of work a total of 2 months). + At the time Jason wasn’t extremely mindful of the economic situation and whether many companies were laying people off. He trusted himself, feeling he was better than average in the industry, and felt he would find something. + "It’s business. It’s not a reflection on you." – Jason Langer, on layoffs + Being laid off doesn’t mean you’re a poor worker or that someone had it out for you. + Nick has not been through it but has known people who have, and there a lot of emotions that come up. He feels it has to be super hard not to question whether there is something wrong with you. * Getting laid off was one of the best financial things that ever happened to Jason and his wife. + They had a house payment, 2 car payments, call phones, the most expensive internet package, and the biggest cable tv package. To this point they had been "keeping up with the Jones’." + Jason took the severance check and paid off his wife’s car, and they turned off their cable. Jason has not had cable tv since about 2002. They have also never had 2 car payments at the same time after this instance. + Jason reiterates not to take the layoff personally, reiterating the sun will come up again and that people will find other (and potentially better) jobs. We should definitely lean on personal connections in these cases. * When Jason started at Microsoft, he brought along two of his colleagues who had also been laid off from Disney. + After being hired Jason found they needed 2 more people. Jason told them he knew the exact people they needed (his friends Steve and Mike). + They worked a lot and on many a fun project, and working with friends made it a good time. + If you have questions or want to talk more, contact Jason on Twitter @thejasonlanger.
28:14 – Architecture and Optimization* Jason is a big movie buff and calls the move to more of an architect role more of an act 2 of his career. + Act 1 would contain the work he did in phone support, the work on Xbox Live for Microsoft, and maybe a couple of other experiences sprinkled in there. In the latter part of act 1 he was doing the work of what we would call a systems administrator. - There was project work certainly, but Jason feels the work of a systems administrator (or sysadmin) is mostly break fix work. A lot of times you are focused on helping someone fix a problem (i.e. a server is not working, etc. + When Jason moved into act 2 of his career and got into more of an architect role, he moved to working for a VAR (Value Added Reseller) and worked as a consultant. - Jason ended up switching jobs a lot around this time. And he figured out that he liked to build things (perhaps not surprising with him liking Legos as a kid and later building PCs). - Jason doesn’t really like maintaining things (sitting there and waiting for something to break or waiting for the latest updates, for example). - This got him into VAR life. It was a progression from doing (generally) break fix work to having business outcome conversations or getting into problem solving on a larger scale for customers. - Sometimes there were smaller problems to fix, of course, but it could be meeting with banking executives who needed help developing a business continuity and disaster recovery plan and didn’t care as much about the technical details of what was inside it. The focus was more on meeting the requirements. - The conversations where very much business outcome-focused and how to achieve them. This is where the architecture piece came in…understanding and knowing how a given technology solution (a set of hardware / software products, for example) could be used to deliver the outcomes people who were paying the bills cared about. * This is the type of work Jason was doing at GCSIT. He started out as a "deployment guy" and later moved to architecture work. + You get the technical "chops" through speeds and feeds conversations certainly. But you start thinking about how to engage with managers, directors and vice presidents (VPs) though trying to build up the conversationalism. + Certainly we tease that architects make pretty diagrams. They certainly do that, but that is only part of it. + To do the work of an architect and have meaningful conversations with leaders, Jason says the passion has to be there. - "If you’re not into it, you’re not into it. You’re not going to go there. That’s not your path or your career arc." – Jason Langer, on the desire to become an architect + Jason also got more involved on the business side of thing for the VAR also. This helped him think more about how businesses are working. + Jason still had the passion for the technology, but he didn’t need (or want) to know every checkbox and setting for a given technology. He had also been in tech for about 15 years at this point. + Jason started thinking about how he might advance and have more meaningful conversations. + He also really enjoys writing documentation, which is an element of an architect’s job. It’s not just making diagrams but a lot of documenting and writing. - Jason says he never would have guessed that he would enjoy writing the documentation as much as he did. + Jason was focused more on business value and business cases and less on having the "stump the chump" conversations. * When Jason was doing deployments at the VAR, at first he was not given a deployment plan by someone in an architect role. + It was not for lack of trying but rather that everyone was moving so fast. + Over time at the consulting firm Jason progressed to architect, became a practice manager, and then eventually became the head of the systems team. + With exposure to larger opportunities / projects and larger customers, Jason came to understand technical documentation was an expected deliverable. Go back to Jason’s example of the banking customer that wanted implementation guides as part of an engagement. + The team Jason was on became more process oriented, and he helped develop some of the improvements the firm made. - By this time, implementation engineers had some guidelines and diagrams to help them understand the expectations and not need to start from scratch. This was especially important because the person who sells the solution, the person who designs the solution, and the one who implements the solution are not usually the same within a given organization. They would often have handoff / turnover meetings to make sure everyone was on the same page since no one would own something beginning to end. + Jason began to develop relationships with others who worked for technology partners inside the VMware ecosystem. Even though many were competitors in some way, learning about processes other companies used causes you to reflect on your own processes and likely was a contributing factor to the process optimization we heard Jason describe.
35:44 – Manage the Practice and the People* We talked about the delineation between types of technology partners in Episode 165 with guest Andrew Miller. * Since Jason held the title of practice manager, what exactly did that entail? + Fun fact – Andrew Miller worked with Jason Nash, who eventually became a mentor to Jason (Langer). This hits on the theme of relationships that Jason mentioned earlier in the discussion. + Jason has seen the practice manager role implemented in different ways. At first he was a practice manager for end user computing as it related to VMware technologies (Horizon, Workspace ONE, etc.). + Jason had to consider how to - Get the right training for the engineers that worked at the VAR to be competent in pre-sales, post-sales, design, and architecture - Come up with a standardized bill of materials - Determine which pieces of software and hardware would be in the company’s solution portfolio + Jason was focused on running the practice like its own business unit or entity that would bring in end user computing revenue through the various offerings (consulting, deployment, sell the solution to a company who will deploy on their own, etc.). - Jason would meet with representatives from different technology companies that made up the VAR’s portfolio (VMware, Dell, NVIDIA, etc.). - "In the VAR world you have many masters because everybody wants you to sell their thing." – Jason Langer, on life as a practice manager at a VAR + Partners exist to help technology companies achieve greater reach (help with deployments of the technology but also scale the sales force to reach more customers). The partner ecosystem is important for technology vendors that use the channel for sales. + As practice manager, Jason had to come up with business plans and figure out how to position the VAR’s solution portfolio. He would need to consider how the company would do assessments, what statements of work would look like for services, etc. - It was a little bit of the architecture he had done in his previous experience and some business elements like how the company would make money on services and solutions they sold. * At the time he was a practice manager the engineers (or SEs) did not report to Jason. It was more like a dotted line. + Jason might help with pre-sales conversations or ensure training was conducted / completed for the team, but he was not their manager. He didn’t approve time cards, encourage people to take time off, or any of those types of things. + Jason was also ensuring the AEs (account executives / account managers / salespeople) were trained on use cases for the portfolio of solutions inside the EUC practice Jason managed. * After serving as end user computing practice manager for a while, Jason ended up running the SE organization for the systems side of the VAR. + There were networking personnel who worked on routing and switching, and there were systems personnel who worked on servers and storage. * Jason ended up managing the business relationships with the technology partners that his VAR would resell (i.e. those technologies inside the solution portfolio like Veeam, Pure, Dell EMC, VMware, etc.). + These technology companies would want Jason and the VAR where he worked to do a certain amount of activity to promote their products (webinars, conferences, etc.). Trying to keep everyone happy made for strange bedfellows. + Jason says it was fun and feels the VAR was successful at it. They even won an award for their VMware practice at one point. + Despite the working with technology partners being fun, it could also be a headache. Sometimes Jason would have to have some uncomfortable conversations with people (keeping in mind it s not personal but just business). He tried to be up front, honest, and kept his word. + The technology partners would want to have a specific number of SEs at the VAR certified on their platform to help the VAR stand out as having a services competency, for example.
41:57 – Attractiveness of VAR Life* For listeners out there looking to gain certifications, working for a VAR as a consultant or SE could be a viable next steps. Those VARs need the certifications to help with relationships with other technology partners. + Jason says there are financial reasons for a lot of this that make it nice. + When Jason made the move to the VAR originally, he had been working on certifications. At the time he wanted to make VMware technologies more of his career. + It was very attractive that Jason came to the VAR with the certifications already (such as the VCP or VMware Certified Professional). They did not need to pay to send him to training or pay for testing. Many technology certifications require classroom training as part of the certification. + Jason tells us it is a good career arc to move from working as a customer (as a system administrator or sysadmin) to a VAR and that he learned a ton. There were many things he had no idea he was getting into when he made the change. + Jason got the opportunity to interview with some VARs through a relationship he made while working at Microsoft. Someone Jason worked with at Microsoft introduced Jason to a woman who managed the Seattle area VARs for VMware. - Jason sent her his resume, and she did the work of getting his resume out to VARs in the area. - Though Jason considers himself above average, he feels fortunate to have made relationships like this one which have done so much for his career. Being a people person is important, and it’s become a lot easier in the last 10 years to build those bridges.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 217 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of a discussion with Kristen Carder, talking through ADHD from a leader’s perspective, behavioral trends in people with ADHD, the start of Kristen’s coaching career, and how she became a podcaster.
Original Recording Date: 02-06-2023
Kristen Carder is a complete ADHD nerd and says she is obsessed with ADHD and how it affects adults. Kristen has been studying ADHD for about 10 years and has worked exclusively with adults with ADHD for the last 4 years. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Kristen, be sure to check out Episode 216.
Topics – The Leader’s Strengths and Weaknesses, Giving Time and Attention and Presence, Operating Manual for the Self, ADHD in Tech and the Challenge of Getting Help, Becoming a Coach, Developing Expertise, Curriculum Builder, Hosting a Podcast4:36 – The Leader’s Strengths and Weaknesses* Kristen says being in a leadership role with ADHD is going to take a hefty amount of self-awareness and self-acceptance if you intend to do it well and without burning yourself out. + Leaders with ADHD may want to hide it and ensure no one finds out about the ADHD individual’s struggles with details, time management, and deadlines. What can often happen is a sense of guilt and shame in who the leader really is underneath everything. + One of the ways Kristen combats this and encourages clients to combat it is make piece with who you are. While it sounds simple to say, Kristen believes this is the work of our lives. This starts with really understanding what your strengths and weaknesses are. + If you can understand that you’re in the leadership role for a reason, it gives you perspective. Kristen uses herself as an example. - It probably isn’t that she is amazing at managing her time. - It’s probably that she’s very creative, she solves problems quickly, and she can do many things at one time. - Knowing all your strengths helps you understand why a company is really paying you. + Your weaknesses could be supported by someone in a different position, some kind of assistant, or some other form of accountability. + Kristen recommends being willing to share your weaknesses even if you don’t want to share your ADHD diagnosis. - Sharing your ADHD diagnosis is a different animal altogether. There is no obligation that you share that with anyone. - If you are going to share the diagnosis, Kristen recommends understanding who you’re talking to – whether they are a safe person, whether they have a track record of being understanding or critical p/ dismissive, etc. - Kristen has heard people say things like "everyone has ADHD now / everyone is on medication." Beware of people who make statements as it really shows you who you can and cannot share information with. + There is a way to share your weaknesses and the things with which you struggle without revealing you have an ADHD diagnosis. + Kristen is open about ADHD because it’s her life’s work. - She recommends thinking about why you want to share the fact that you have ADHD with someone. - In the United States you are covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act if your ADHD is severe enough, which may be a reason to disclose it to an employer. - The decision to share your diagnosis is individual and very personal. + Once your strengths and weaknesses are known, find the people who can work with you to support the weaknesses. Kristen uses herself as an example. - Kristen tells us she has a team of people managing her and that her company would not exist otherwise. - There are 2 people who work very closely with Kristen on tasks like managing her calendar, ensuring e-mails are responded to, and even sit with Kristen while she does the things she hates to do. - Kristen shares the story of having a contractor who had to be paid by paper check only. When it is time to do this, Felicia on her team has to make her do it. - "I’m running a 7-figure company. Why can’t I just write a check? Because I don’t want to. That’s not what I actually get paid for. That’s not what I’m actually growing my business for….I need support with the easy things so I can get the hard things done. And every ADHD leader is going to resonate with that." – Kristen Carder - People with ADHD are able to achieve amazing things that people wonder…"how are you able to do that?" But they may not be able to get their dishes done or get to a meeting on time. They are going to need support with the little details.
11:12 – Giving Time and Attention and Presence* John likes the idea of sharing weaknesses with the people you work with and putting some structures in place. It’s the life’s work that is embracing that part of yourself. * Kristen says this can be extremely difficult. Those with ADHD have been shamed since they were toddlers for the fact that they are unable to do the easy stuff (putting a backpack away, turning in a paper, transitioning from video games to homework, etc.). "Why can’t you just (insert comment here)?" + Because of this shame being carried over the years, Kristen tells us it is hard for the ADHDer to advocate for themselves and to communicate their needs to others. + There is a fear of being told you’re stupid or that some judgement will come from others for asking for help on something so simple. Think back to Kristen’s example of needing support / accountability to write the check. + When clients get down on themselves about not being able to do something they believe they should be able to do, she has to remind them to think again. It is the basics, the things we might consider very simple, with which the ADHDer struggles (despite their ability to do incredibly complex things with ease). + John says we don’t understand how much effort something takes someone else (even if we might categorize it as "easy"). + John was thinking about how hard it can be for anyone to ask for accommodations. People with physical disabilities might find it hard to say they can’t walk the same speed as others and that the pace needs to be slowed. + We need to be more thoughtful about the hidden things. If it’s in your brain that isn’t externalized like someone sitting in a wheelchair is. People don’t wear an ADHD flag on their back to let everyone else know or to serve as a reminder that they need help. * Kristen says the most vulnerable part of the disorder is being willing to ask for what you need. You recognize what you need, make peace with what you need, and then you have to externalize it (and ask for help). * "We’ve started creating actual meetings for the tasks that I just hate to do. My team just gathers, and they just sit there. And I do the thing, and they are there with me." – Kristen Carder, on getting support from her team + This is called body doubling. Kristen sees her team there in the meeting, and it helps her stay on task. + Kristen wants to do the hard stuff on her own (walk around, take notes, etc.). But for the "easy stuff," she needs to do it in a group. + "I need to write these 4 e-mails. I don’t want to do it. Please, somebody sit with me while I do this." – Kristen Carder, on having a body double to hold space for her + Kristen only hires people who are empathetic and understanding and who are willing to help with the smaller things so she can get the hard stuff accomplished. + Not everyone has this luxury, of course. You won’t always work on a team of empathetic people. It may be time to find some new people or a different place to work. + Nick feels like he has seen a part of the body doubling happen and mostly been on the support side. He feels like supporting someone in that way helps them to de-escalate situations. + Kristen says you don’t even need to be a participant. You can (for kids with ADHD, for example) just sit with them and do your own thing. And you might need to get onto the person if they pick up their phone, and tell them to get back to work. + For the parents of children with ADHD out there, offering to sit with your child who struggles to complete homework can be very helpful (even if you pretend to do something / work on something as you sit there). - "While you do your work, I’m going to do my work….And when you get really frustrated, I’m just going to breathe with you. We’ll take 5 deep breaths together, and then we’ll get back to work. It’s an amazing tool." – Kristen Carder - Nick says this is the gift of your presence (as a parent in this case). - "Hey, I’m with you. I know you’ve got to do the work. I can’t do the work for you, but I’m with you in it. I’m here." – Kristen Carder describing a beautiful picture of humanity and the gift of being present with someone else + Nick remembers as a kid his mom would sit up with him while he finished his homework. She would just be there and be present to support him, and he’s never forgotten it. - Nick shares that now his daughter often needs the same thing from him, even when he’s tired. "Tough it up, man" is what he has to tell himself in those moments because she needs him. + John says time and attention are two of the most powerful gifts we can give.
19:28 – Operating Manual for the Self* John asked if Kristen has come across the idea of publishing an operating manual for your team which describes how you work, the strengths you have and how you can support them, and the areas where you need support from the team. + Kristen has not come across it formally but loves the idea of it. + To be able to write something like that down you have to know something about yourself. And it might be worth going through this exercise even if you never publish the manual. Think about… - How do I work best? - What do I actually need? - What supports would work best for me? + If we’re going to share such a manual with others, Kristen advises that we should know who we are giving it to in advance. + There are two types of people in the world, safe people and unsafe people. - A safe person is going to read this and appreciate the opportunity to learn more about you. They are going to make an effort to refer to the manual, trying to work with you in the most effective way. - An unsafe person is going to think it’s strange. They are going to treat it more like a "thanks but no thanks" kind of thing. + Kristen tells us that knowing the audience is key because we cannot control how others will respond. + John says he heard about this from Jim Hogan at Google (someone with the principal title, also on the spectrum). John remembers hearing a talk Jim gave about this concept of the self-manual which detailed how Jim preferred to be scheduled for meetings, best communication methods for reaching him and working with him effectively, etc. - For example, John knows he tends to go on and on with his stories, and if he was managing a team, he would tell them to feel free and interrupt him with "hey, I get it." + Thinking about this again, Kristen thinks handing something like this to people who work for you is awesome. She was picturing handing it to colleagues at first. - Leaders could hand this to people and tell them it’s a way for others to make the most of the relationship with that leader, and it also sets the standard for a culture that allows expression of needs and boundaries right away. - Kristen says a leader could even have their team members do a similar exercise. For example, develop a half-pager of the most important items to communicate to your colleagues how you work in the best way. + John even thinks about it from a sales engineering perspective. Many times we need to bring in more specialized colleagues to help our customers, but those specialists have requirements / things they want to know ahead of time before meeting with a customer. - Doing the work ahead of time allows the specialist to be more effective in helping to solve a problem, and it parallels the operating manual idea. - Nick calls it a preferred engagement model that fits the operating manual and procedures within it.
25:53 – ADHD in Tech and the Challenge of Getting Help* Nick asked Kristen if she’s seeing any specific trends with ADHD in the tech industry. + Kristen sees trends in a behavioral way. + Kristen says many of her clients work in the technology space and that she is seeing brilliant minds who can hyperfocus in amazing ways. - Kristen tells us that hyperfocus is the ability to sit and be extremely persistent with one task for so much time you’re ignoring basic needs to do it (i.e. not going to the rest room, not eating, not sleeping, focused on solving a problem / whatever the task is, etc.). + She sees a lot of perfectionism in these clients (people wanting to make something perfect / do something perfect) and even some spiraling when things are not perfect. + There’s also a lot of overwhelm (sort of thriving in the hyperfocus but being overwhelmed by it at the same time). + Meeting deadlines can also be very difficult and stressful for these folks. - "The ADHD brain is just an amazing thing; however, sometimes it just does not cooperate." – Kristen Carder speaking on the ADHD brain and deadlines + John mentioned if you had thousands of people on which to do a research study to capture industry, you would be biasing toward the population who had thought to get a diagnosis. * John mentioned people who need help might seek a diagnosis and realize it’s not pure medication to solve all the problems. The next step could be behavioral coaching. + And kudos to people out there with ADHD who got past all these hurdles to get the help needed. + Kristen agrees wholeheartedly, especially since ADHD can be so debilitating and so many people are walking around undiagnosed. + If you’re listening and believe ADHD is over diagnosed, it is very likely you are misinformed. + Kristen says so many people out there just think they are lazy, who just think they are a bad person who cannot manage their time, who just think they are selfish because they cannot seem to show up places on time, who just think they are bad with money, who just think they make bad decisions, etc. + So many people are walking around with shame and don’t realize the things they hate about themselves are symptoms of ADHD. + Even getting access to healthcare can be a challenge. It could be a year wait or more to get a diagnosis even (outside the US and sometimes inside the US). + Think about all the executive function needed to keep track of medications and various appointments. Kristen has 2 kids who are on medication for ADHD, and she keeps track of all this for them plus herself. - It is hard for people with ADHD to get the medication they need. + Getting to that next level (hiring a coach, seeing a therapist, doing trauma informed therapy, mindset coaching, etc.) is so admirable. It’s nice to see people taking advantage of those things.
31:17 – Becoming a Coach* Kristen was listening to a podcast about business back in the days when she was running BeyondTutoring. She wanted to learn more about how to grow and scale the company. + This podcast happened to have a life coach as a guest on the show who said something that changed Kristen’s life – "B- work can change the world, but work that never gets done doesn’t help anybody." + Kristen did not really know what a life coach was at this time. + After this Kristen went straight to this lady’s podcast and started hearing other things like "you can make more money than you’re making" and "your thoughts impact how you feel." - These were things Kristen hadn’t really heard. - "I was a 37-year-old woman just trying to live her life, not knowing that the way that I think actually impacts how I feel. That was news to me." – Kristen Carder, on listening to advice from a lie coach + Kristen joined this coach’s program soon after, and it was extremely helpful. - Joining the program was the extra push Kristen needed. She had been medically treated for ADHD and was at the same time deepening her understanding of what it means to have ADHD, and she was also bringing in the life coaching tools learned from being a part of the group coaching program. - The combination above according to Kristen was life changing and was exactly what she needed at the time. - Kristen modeled her coaching program after the one she had joined (Brooke Castillo was the coach, a pioneer in the life coaching field, Self-Coaching Scholars was the program), but Kristen is no longer values aligned with this coach. + Kristen got certified as a life coach and built the FOCUSED program, bringing in her knowledge of ADHD and the coaching tools. + "It’s just explosive what the ADHD brain can do once there’s more understanding of who you and why you are acting the way you’re acting….And then, how does the human brain work, and how can you sort of hack it to get yourself to do the things you don’t want to do." – Kristen Carder
34:32 – Developing Expertise* Kristen’s ADHD expertise journey began when she was supporting students through her tutoring business. + So many of the students Kristen worked with had ADHD. Kristen knew she had ADHD, but other than being medically treated for it she did not know much about it. + Kristen started researching ADHD to help her students. This led her to understand that things like time blindness, an inability to remember things in the moment, and being emotionally explosive were all symptoms of ADHD. - "And so I just ferociously began devouring all kinds of ADHD material." – Kristen Carder, speaking to the realization of understanding so many things she was experiencing were ADHD related + Kristen cites Dr. Russell Barkley’s work as well as the work of Dr. Ned Hallowell, Dr. Ari Tuckman, and Sari Solden as sources for her research (big contributors of research and writing for the ADHD brain). + Kristen realized once she started doing this that reading information like this (research, etc.) and synthesizing it for an audience like her podcast audience and clients (i.e. pulling out the parts the ADHDer really cares about) is her superpower. + Nick thinks Kristen and John share a superpower with that consumption and synthesis aspect. Sometimes Nick will find himself saying something and then John will say it so much better. - John says part of this is listening and echoing back. If you’re actively listening / have those skills and are focused on what the other person is saying (maybe even hyperfocused), you’re paying attention to context and what the person is going through in the moment as well as the future state. - Echoing back what someone said with their context and their future state seems very profound to the person who was originally speaking. - Kristen agrees John should give himself a bit more credit in this area. The things that are complex come quite easily to the ADHD brain, while the things that are easier do not. + Not everyone can do these complex things. Kristen can read a book and know very quickly the things her audience cares about (i.e. what to highlight for them). + From all the books Kristen has read and conversations with ADHD giants, Kristen is able to create classes for her coaching program. At the time of this recording she mentions one about money. Doing this kind of thing is a joy for Kristen.
38:38 – Curriculum Builder* John sees a lot of parallels between us and our audience with Nerd Journey and Kristen and her audience. + We’re trying to help people understand they could be making more money, they shouldn’t limit themselves, etc. We like to discuss books that we’ve read with some important takeaways for listeners (giving them the option to go and read the book if they want). + John wonders if he and Nick should look at putting in the time and effort to create a class? * Getting to the point of creating classes relates back to Kristen knowing herself. + She’s never going to record something in advance for her students to digest later. Kristen is always going to record it in real-time. She likes the feel of community and the adrenaline rush from having so many people at once on a call. + All calls are hosted webinar style. Kristen comes prepared with some bullet points but likes to keep things conversational. + Kristen doesn’t really understand how people create courses for others to consume later. + For example, in FOUCSED they are studying money for the entire month. Kristen is doing 4 strategy classes (what she considers the teaching element), 4 coaching calls on money, and then 4 body double type budgeting sessions. These will be recorded and stored somewhere (i.e. a money course section) for people to consume later. + Kristen knows she is not going to develop a curriculum and just record it in front of her camera (i.e. without the live element). She’s not that person. + It’s fun for Kristen to do these live. It allows people to ask questions in the moment. And it makes people feel like they are not alone. Kristen can read feedback people share in the webinar shat back to the group to help here. It’s the community element. + When Kristen first started she was creating a new course each month. She did 11 courses her first year and was pretty tired. + Kristen tells us she would write the entire workbook for the class (the part she can do on her own). She is a good writer and writes the way she talks, leading people through a self-coaching practice in her writing. + Kristen would use the workbook (which could be 50 pages or so) as a guide to teach the class. In her mind, once the workbook was done, the work was done.
42:58 – Hosting a Podcast* Kristen created the I Have ADHD podcast out of necessity.
+ In the 2015 – 2017 range Kristen kept looking for a podcast on ADHD (and would look every few months). But she didn’t like any of the ones out there.
+ Kristen would listen to those she could find and think "this is not what I want" or "this is not what I need." She remembers having conversations about it with her husband.
+ "When is somebody going to create a podcast that is concise and fun but also full of really useful info? When is somebody going to create a podcast that has coaching tools and ADHD resources combined? And I just kept waiting around for someone to do it, and I got really frustrated. And then that little voice came that was like ‘excuse me, why aren’t you doing it?’ But you never think that you can do it." – Kristen Carder, speaking to why she created her podcast
+ Kristen told herself she wasn’t an expert and that the was still learning and that "grown ups needed to do it" (create the podcast she wanted).
+ Kristen realized if she were looking for this others were too. And maybe it would be a gap she could fill.
+ It was around the end of 2018 when Kristen dropped her first episode.
- "I just kind of threw it out into the darkness of the night and hoped that nobody ever listened to it…and it is THE most downloaded episode I have…." – Kristen Carder on releasing the first episode of her show
+ But Kristen was right! People were looking for a resource like this. The I Have ADHD podcast is now one of the top rated podcasts with over 4 million downloads.
+ Looking back, Kristen says it’s (still) really fun.
+ "I feel very grateful that there were other people out there just like me who appreciated a straightforward but fun vibe…and who were looking for real ADHD resources combined with some mindset tools." – Kristen Carder
+ Kristen says podcasting is the hardest thing she does. It’s hard for her to sit in her own office by herself to record.
- "I like having a podcast, but I hate podcasting. I love interviews like this…but if it’s a solo episode, there’s a lot of drama." – Kristen Carder
- Kristen tells us she often thinks about other things she needs to do or procrastinates and that it’s very hard to pull a solo episode out.
- Kristen knows the work is important and that her solo episodes are some of the best episodes she has. Reminding herself of how much she loves having a podcast helps her do the hard work.
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If you want to follow up on this episode, you can find Kristen on…
- Onher website
- On Instagram
- And check out the I Have ADHD podcast!
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Mentioned in the outro
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Being open about an ADHD diagnosis can be really hard.
- John has built an operating manual for himself but hasn’t yet shared with his team. Stay tuned to hear how that goes when he does share it!
- Are John and Nick on the verge of working to build classes? Or should they?
- Nick mentions Kristen’s discussion of "what I get paid for" reminds him of Don Jones’ discussion of knowing the problem you solve mentioned in Episode 137.
- Would you be able to say you know the things you get paid for? It’s something to ponder.
- We talk about the idea of ignition from Dan Coyle’s The Talent Code.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 216 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of a discussion with Kristen Carder, talking through her early life and education, her ADHD diagnosis and impact, and lessons learned in starting and stopping a successful business as a person with ADHD.
Original Recording Date: 01-16-2023
Topics – Meet Kristen Carder, The Early Years, ADHD in the Family, Detecting and Diagnosing ADHD, More than Just Personality Traits, Something to Prove, Accountable for Maintaining the Culture, Transition to CEO4:21 – Meet Kristen Carder* Kristen Carder is a complete ADHD nerd and says she is obsessed with ADHD and how it affects adults. Kristen has been studying ADHD for about 10 years and has worked exclusively with adults with ADHD for the last 4 years. + Kristen hosts a weekly podcast (called the I Have ADHD Podcast) and also has a coaching program through which she supports adults with ADHD around the world. Both of these bring Kristen a great deal of joy.
5:12 – The Early Years* School was challenging for Kristen as a kid who never could seem to live up to her potential (often a hallmark trait of those folks with ADHD). * Kristen also had a hard time thinking about the future and picturing what it might be like. It was hard for her to create a picture of what she wanted to do. + This is something ADHDers struggle with across the board due to challenges with nonverbal working memory (the "mind’s eye"), a very deficient executive function for this population of individuals. + As a result, Kristen went to the same college her father and grandmother attended (thinking that was something she should do). She studied music because she was good at it, beginning with music education. - She never pictured herself teaching in a classroom, nor did she visit a classroom outside of the one she attended. + She struggled to see herself doing anything but knew she was good at music and that generations of family members had attended this college. Kristen ended her time in college with a vocal performance degree. + Rather than build her self esteem by focusing the study in an area of strength, Kristen thinks having to perform in front of critical people constantly may have wrecked her self-esteem in a lot of ways. Kristen says you’re always getting negative feedback on what to improve. + Unless you’re the star of the music program (which Kristen was not, claiming to be merely a competent singer), it became a constant need for Kristen to prove herself. * The college experience did help Kristen start her entrepreneurial journey. She knew coming out of college that she wanted to teach voice and piano lessons. + This laid the foundation of entrepreneurship and helping people one on one (including teaching them how to get from point A to point B). + It was important for Kristen to start with something she was good at and layer in things she didn’t know she was good at like teaching, communicating, encouraging, and helping people to realize who they wanted to be. + In college Kristen had been working 1-1 with students in a tutoring capacity. She knew she was good at that. Then she built up the music skills, so she knew she was good at that too. Kristen then put the two together and created her own business in that way. + Looking back, Kristen says she is not sure how the 23-year-old version of herself was able to do that. At the time she was very low functioning. + Kristen came out of college depressed, a little bit traumatized from the program, and had just planned a wedding. As a person with ADHD herself and parents with ADHD, she came out of college very low functioning and started watching a lot of daytime television. - She was still able to get a couple of students on her own. She is very good at teaching, encouraging, and also good at music. Her students loved her. - Organically this grew into a music studio and Kristen seeing 25 students per week within a year or two.
10:06 – ADHD in the Family* Kristen’s dad was diagnosed with ADHD in his 40s (when she was in high school). Her dad began to nag her and say that he saw this present in her as well. + Kristen was 16 years old around this time and didn’t put a lot of stock in what her dad said. + It was not until Kristen was in college getting As and Fs (nothing in between), struggling with binge eating, struggling with depression, struggling with anxiety, struggling with maintaining life…that she finally called her mom stating she was ready to see if ADHD was a thing for her. + Kristen was diagnosed right away and medicated right away. + This was extremely helpful, and her grades immediately jumped to As and Bs exclusively. Previous to this Kristen was used to always having that one class in which she struggled or that she didn’t care about, feeling that the gap was now starting to be closed. This experience was validating and a confidence boost.
12:03 – Detecting and Diagnosing ADHD* When people experience something similar to Kristen’s situation, what do they do? + Kristen tells us it depends on the family and their own level of cognitive functioning. + As a parent, if you have a child with ADHD it is very likely that you or your partner have ADHD. It can be a challenge as a parent to know what to do if you also have undiagnosed ADHD. + ADHD impacts executive functioning, and there is a great deal of executive functioning in just figuring out what to do. - You’ll have to do some Google searches and make some phone calls (which is very difficult for the person with ADHD). - Luckily there is a great deal of information out there right now. It’s very trendy at present (as of this recording). - Being trendy on one hand is a good thing (i.e. many people who never knew they had ADHD are looking at TikTok videos and thinking "this sounds like me"). On the other hand it may also be a little detrimental that ADHD is trendy. In general the availability of so much information is a good thing. + For parents who suspect your child has ADHD, a great place to start is with your child’s pediatrician. + If your child’s pediatrician dismisses it another place to go to is your child’s teacher. + If both dismiss it, stick to your gut instinct because as the parent you know your kiddo the best. Kristen says at this point look for a psychologist who does independent educational evaluations. * If you’re an adult who suspects you have ADHD, starting with your family doctor is a great place to go. + If you have a good job, a good family, and a good life they will probably dismiss it. + If you are a person of color they will likely dismiss it. + If you are a woman they will likely dismiss it. + It is very important to do some research on your own. Kristen says Taking Charge of Adult ADHD by Russell Barkley, PhD. - The author walks you through diagnostic criteria, what to say to your doctor / how to talk to someone, etc. - There is a list of symptoms and also a list of characteristics (i.e. things people with ADHD struggle with). - Kristen spent an afternoon one time going through this book and marking the things she struggled with in childhood, as an adult, and what she struggles with now. + Going into your doctor’s appointment with some information can be very helpful. Kristen has a list of symptoms she compiled from Dr. Barkley, Dr. Tuckman, Dr. Ramsey, and many others in ADHD psychology on her website. - For example, Kristen shares things like you may struggle with impulsivity and explains what it means (i.e. you make rash decisions, jump to conclusions, are very impatient, hate waiting in line, etc.). - Being able to see how a symptom / characteristic plays out in your life can be really helpful. * Nick says this jives with what Jon Towles shared in Episode 129 and Episode 130 regarding Jon’s diagnosis and journey. + Jon was diagnosed as a kid, and as an adult he has become quite the advocate for people with ADHD.
16:29 – Reacting to a Diagnosis* For Kristen, an ADHD was very validating. All of the things she hated about herself were looked at in a new light (i.e. reasons for things being so hard are because of ADHD). * As she coaches clients of different ages and races all over the world, Kristen notices many people experience the diagnosis with grief: + "If I had only known sooner…" + "If I had only figured this out earlier…" + "Why didn’t anyone pursue this? Why didn’t my parents or my teachers notice?" + "Why has it taken until my 30s / 40s / 50s / 60s / 70s to be diagnosed?" Yes, Kristen has worked with people who were diagnosed in their 70s. * Imagine getting the diagnosis and going through all of the different memories of job loss, relationships severed, debt accumulated, etc. that come up. You might start to think if you had been diagnosed sooner maybe those things would not have happened. + Much of the work Kristen does with people having ADHD is related to helping them process whatever may have come up for them upon diagnosis. + She teaches people to honor whatever comes up for them (grief, etc.) to help that person move forward. One person may experience validation and grief. Another may experience grief and regret. We each get to have a different reaction and experience. + If you are tethered to anger, resentment, regret, and grief it will be difficult to move forward with any type of change. Some time must be spent honoring and healing. + Nick can see how someone could get the diagnosis and then do a "loss inventory" (almost like the flip side of seeing your wins after a big achievement.
19:49 – More than Just Personality Traits* "When I was medicated, it was very helpful, but pills don’t teach skills." – Kristen Carder on receiving medication for ADHD shortly after her diagnosis * Kristen had grown up in what she would call a very chaotic, ADHD family. + She was never taught how to arrive somewhere on time. + She was never taught how to gather everything needed before leaving the house. + She was never taught how to keep a planner. * Her parents may have attempted to teach Kristen some of these skills, but she definitely had not mastered them. That help came when she married a very neurotypical, gentle, safe man. + Kristen’s husband taught her to always put her keys in the same spot when she got home, for example. Previous to this she had been guilty of constantly losing basic things and never really feeling like she was prepared. + Kristen says in the first couple years of their marriage her husband helped her regulate her nervous system and taught her some very basic things (i.e. getting places 10 minutes early to account for time needed to walk inside instead of getting there right when things start). + The basic skills were taught to Kristen by her husband, and years later she found coaching. As a result she was able to take ownership of her own thoughts and emotions and begin to set goals and make changes. That along with medication has allowed Kristen to evolve into a fully formed adult: - Somoene who can set goals and reach them - Someone who can prioritize and plan, spending time on the things that are truly important instead of dividing her time across a million things and not really being present anywhere. + Coaching got Kristen to that next level. * Kristen’s husband didn’t have any kind of ADHD specialization. In fact, neither she nor her husband attributed some of the things they saw in Kristen to ADHD. + At the time Kristen knew so little about ADHD she attributed much of this to her personality. + She graduated from college in May as a 23-year-old, and was married in August of the same year. + The ADHD brain’s frontal lobe is about 30% behind developmentally and can take until someone is in their 30s to function at the same level as everyone else. The frontal lobe is your "adulting" zone (i.e. making decisions, plan, prioritize, set goals and achieve them, etc.). + The characteristics Kristen was exhibiting were NOT her personality after all. - Now that Kristen is "the real me" as she calls it, she is still fun but likes to be places on time, get things accomplished, have things in proper order, etc. During the time we’re discussing here her nervous system was built for chaos. + Kristen’s husband taught her how to clean, that dishes should be done right after dinner, and other basic things. * "Later on when I was researching ADHD in my early 30s, I learned, oh, this isn’t my personality. These are all symptoms of ADHD. But nobody ever told me that." – Kristen Carder + Kristen says there is no pamphlet you get when diagnosed with ADHD that tells you all this. Most clinicians don’t even know that much about ADHD (i.e. maybe have only taken a course on it). It’s not something people know much about. + When Kristen was diagnosed and handed a stimulant medication she was very grateful but did not know ADHD affected so many areas of her life. It affects all areas of your life from the boardroom to the bedroom and everything in between. She wishes clinicians would tell people this information but feels they made not know it themselves. + Nick says this is analagous to the primary care physician we visit who didn’t specialize in nutrition. There’s only so much guidance they can provide in certain areas. * On her podcast, Kristen had her husband Greg guest to talk about what it was like being married to someone with ADHD. You can find them here: + Podcast Episode #53: Married to ADHD with Greg Carder [Part 1] + Podcast Episode #54: Married to ADHD with Greg Carder [Part 2]
27:25 – Something to Prove* Kristen for the most part is very conscious about work. When she did tutoring, she worked very hard to arrive on time and to have it together. + By this time she knew herself pretty well and that she would have to work pretty hard to get places on time. + Work is the one place she would arrive on time probably 9 out of 10 times, even as a college kid. + Kristen says there’s a hierarchy in her brain where she can get to work on time but won’t be to church on time. + If someone is paying Kristen to show up (like she would do for her FOCUSED coaching program clients), she will show up on time. If she is paying someone to show up on time she is always late. - Kristen is notoriously late for meetings with her assistant and her team. - Kristen says her brain knows what is important and will only consent to arriving on time for things in that top tier bracket and embraces this. She doesn’t care as much about things in the lower tiers almost like capacity is full. * Kristen felt like she had a lot to prove with the tutoring business and that she needed to prove herself. + It was a brick and mortar business in her town with online delivery not really being an option for the service she intended to deliver. + Kristen would dress up (i.e. get fancy and wear a blazer perhaps) and arrive on time. + Kristen feels she did prove herself and is grateful for this time in her life when she could start something from the ground up and run a successful company. + Previous to this Kristen had not taken any courses on entrepreneurship. She learned by doing. Any time Kristen hit a wall or ran into a new problem, she would get what she needed to solve it. + This experience also taught her how to lead a team. By the time she left she had 6-7 part time employees. + Looking back it seems like the right move not to have taken courses. Kristen moved through the problems systematically and figured things out along the way, seeking out help and more information as needed. * Did asking her mom for help and getting the diagnosis of ADHD make it easier for Kristen to ask for help when / after starting a business? + There was a family characteristic passed down of "how hard can it be" that Kristen adopted going into this. "I’ll figure it out. It’s fine." + Kristen has learned to temper this mindset a little over time, but back then she had been taught that she could figure it out and didn’t even consider asking for help (which may have been a little egotistical). + Kristen had an accountant and a lawyer at the time and would always hire and surround herself with people smarter than her. - Kristen mentions hiring people with education degrees and psychology degrees, for example. + The attitude / mindset above has served Kristen well and only causes challenges once in a while. + Nick says you need confidence to excel of course, but it’s not like Kristen quit her job and decided to start a business without investing in the right kind of help (lawyer, accountant, etc.). It wasn’t a blind hope without research behind it. + A strong value of Kristen’s in grounding herself with people who know more than her. + Kristen has a good sense and can get a lot accomplished but always wants to be surrounded by people who are experts and who make up for Kristen’s weaknesses. - Kristen knows where her weaknesses are and is not ashamed of it. She solves for it by surrounding herself with people who make up for that. - Nick says many people do not want their weaknesses exposed because it puts them in an uncomfortable spot. - One of Kristen’s strengths is being very in tune with who she is and where she is weak, and she is not ashamed of it. - Kristen coaches so many people who are ashamed of their weaknesses. She tries to look at the situation for herself logically. - "I have some really amazing strengths and some very stark obvious weaknesses, and I am both. That’s what makes me a human." – Kristen Carder - In light of running a successful business, Kristen thinks about how to solve for the weaknesses. One of the ways Kristen gives as an illustration of this is paying people to hold her accountable for things she does not like doing but needs to do. Listen to her story about it.
35:26 – Accountable for Maintaining the Culture* Kristen’s tutoring business was profitable enough to be able to rent without a loan. * When she got the lease for the space, Kristen was very insecure and nervous. She made her lawyer, accountant, and realtor all read over the agreement (which was a commitment of 2-3 years). + As an adult with ADHD, committing to the future that you can barely picture is very difficult. + "I don’t have a beautiful vision for that future, but I’m going to make a 2 year commitment to it? Is that really what we’re asking ourselves to do right now?" – Kristen Carder + Kristen went through this process with people who were experts in the field because she was scared of signing the lease. * Kristen had to learn how to hire the right people and how to manage them. + The most important skill Kristen had to learn was direct, assertive communication and immediate feedback. + Give people feedback in real-time without letting it fester and lead to resentment. + This is something Kristen learned and implemented right away. Her employees were working with young children and teenagers. The way employees spoke to the kids and interacted with the kids was important. + Kristen knew the culture she wanted to create. Kristen knew that people loved working with her, and she was kind and encouraging but also firm in pushing people to their limits in a safe way. - She wanted to teach her employees the same thing, and it turns out this was more of an art than a science. - Kristen tried to teach it and eventually learned how to hire for it. - Instead of hiring a nice person with an education degree, she began to hire people who had more of a coach-like personality who could be encouraging but firm. + Hiring and firing was something Kristen learned and hated. She still hates it. - While not fun, learning how to fire quickly without letting things go on really helped Kristen to create a healthy culture and a healthy business. - If the person was consistently not meeting goals, it was not a good fit. + "When you make your first hire, when you interview people for the first time, that’s on the job training. You can read about it in a book, but really just doing it and figuring out as you’re going has been the way that I learn best in every aspect of my life." – Kristen Carder - This includes how to hire, how to fire, how to give someone feedback in a review, and how to make sure you’re paying well enough that people feel valued (all things important to Kristen). - Looking back on it, Kristen realizes she learned a lot from this experience. * Nick says if you’re not a culture fit, you can’t force it. * When we’re building companies and there is a hole which needs filling, Kristen says there can be a desperation to fill the hole (i.e. a warm body who can do the work). + Kristen found herself hiring too fast just to fill the gap quickly and later realized it was a mistake. + In the long run the quick fix is not the best solution. Waiting for the culture fit serves the overall company so much better. + Thinking back to when she closed out her end of the business and sold it, her team was the cream of the crop. The team was kind, were amazing with the students, and they really got the job done in a beautiful way. Kristen says reflecting on this is really encouraging. + Kristen hated the conversations with the team about closing. She had to inform them that she would be transitioning out of Beyond Tutoring and into full time coaching. The team loved working for Kristen and was very sad to heat the news. + They had a great, great culture by the time Beyond Tutoring was ready to close (6-7 part time employees). Kristen had also been a part time employee. + It was a great team, a great culture, and a great location. That’s what made it so hard to close. * Does the ADHD brain handle this closing of a business different than a neurotypical brain might? + "So hard…it’s so hard to end something that’s working…to do something that you think might be a better fit for you. But you’re not sure…." – Kristen Carter + The ADHD brain really loves novelty (the new), and there is a huge amount of dopamine involved In starting something new. + This actually held Kristen back from going full on into coaching. She didn’t want it to just be an ADHD decision. Kristen wanted it to be logical, sensible, well thought out, and to not do it on some kind of whim. + "We’re great problem solvers. We’re great at getting things started. We struggle to maintain." – Kristen Carder, speaking to challenges and struggles for the ADHD brain + Many ADHers want to start, start, start. It’s the long term follow through where they struggle.
44:32 – Transition to CEO* Around the time she was pregnant with her 3rd kiddo, Kristen realized it was not sustainable for her to be the one working with students at Beyond Tutoring. * Kristen had other people working with students during this time. It was not just her, but she was still heavily involved with student sessions. * Kristen felt a lot of pressure to grow her family’s financial future as a mom of 3 boys and being married to a pastor and help carry that load. She felt the financial future of her family rested on her shoulders.
+ Kristen knew this was not sustainable and decided to work her way out of seeing students and transition into more of a CEO role. Kristen did managing, marketing (ensuring high demand for the services offered), and the hiring / firing / leading of the team.
+ Kristen feels she transitioned during this time to team leader. Rather than still being a member of the team, she communicated it was no longer her job to work with students but to…
- Make sure they were getting a lot of business in the door
- Make sure the team was doing their jobs well
- Make sure she was talking with parents and writing reports
- Make sure everyone was happy
+ "Why am I sitting here working with this student when there’s so much admin that needs to be done? The efficiency of it no longer made sense." – Kristen Carder
+ When the thought became pervasive Kristen realized she needed to be paying someone to work with students so she could go do the administrative work and get clients in the door.
- Getting clients in the door is not easy.
- If Kristen could go back she feels she would do a lot of things differently, including pricing. Kristen feels she was priced too high.
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Mentioned in the outro
- John mentioned that hyperactivity and hyperfocus are coping mechanisms for ADHD and that we often overemphasize the hyperactivity portion.
- Nick is reminded of coping mechanisms from our discussions of burnout with Cait Donovan from Episode 214 and Episode 215.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 215 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of a discussion with Cait Donovan, talking through Cait’s experience as a keynote speaker (with tips for speakers at various levels), a business owner, a published author, and a content builder…all within the context of her burnout recovery.
Original Recording Date: 1-21-2023
Cait Donovan spends most of her time giving keynote speeches, recording audio for her podcast (FRIED: The Burnout Podcast), authoring books, and / or working 1-1 with coaching clients who are going through burnout. In case you missed it, part 1 of our discussion with Cait can be found in Episode 214.
Topics – Creating Space and Authoring a Book, A Love for Public Speaking, Charging for Services, Advice for the Content Builder, A Business Owner’s Safety, Breathing Room for the Business, Board of Advisors, The Breakout Speaker and the Keynote Speaker3:32 – Creating Space and Authoring a Book* When Cait was recovering from burnout, she was in Prague with a huge patient list and was booked solid. There was a large community of people who knew what Cait was going through and were reading what she was writing (blogs, etc.). * Cait had some people tell her they needed help with some of the areas she was exploring. + She started helping them by doing it for free or doing it through bartering / for a very low price. + Cait wasn’t doing this to build a business. She wanted there to be a minimal exchange in these situations, and this is how she created it. * After getting back to the states and had the achilles issue, she had half of her book written (wrote it while on vacation) and knew it was a great opportunity to finish it. + It was hard for her to get back to working on the book after she got back to life post vacation, and with the injury she couldn’t go anywhere and was all the more reason to finish the book. + At that same time, she started the podcast and did about 35 interviews in around 5 weeks. It was something else to do. + Cait didn’t do the podcast originally to get new clients (not the original intent). After about a year into doing the show, people started asking what her coaching packages were. At first she did not quite know what to tell people. + Things kind of built up from there. Once Cait realized she could use the podcast for lead generation she started putting in a promo stating people could hire her as part of the show. It became very intentional after not starting out that way. * When asked about her motivations to write a book, Cait cites So You Want to Be a Writer by Charles Bukowski. + Cait read this poem as a senior in high school and knew when she read it that someday she would feel like this (what the poem mentions). + The idea of having something inside you being so full you just had to get it out really hit Cait as an 18-year-old. + When Cait was going through her recovery from burnout, she read all kinds of research. She had all kinds of information built up inside her that if she didn’t get it out into a book, she might not be able to learn any more. + Cait felt so full she couldn’t help herself any longer. When she sat down to write while in Croatia on vacation, she had written 20,000 words in 7 days. + Writing a book for Cait was nothing more than for the purpose of creating space in her mind and body so she could keep going. + The book that came to be as a result here is The Bouncebackability Factor: End Burnout, Gain Resilience, and Change the World. Go get yourself a copy! + Indirectly, writing the book added to Cait’s reputation as a speaker and to a lesser extent as a coach.
9:15 – A Love for Public Speaking* Cait always loved public speaking. * School was easy for Cait growing up. From a young age, she would watch her teacher explain something to the class and notice her classmates did not understand. She thought if she was at the front of the room she would have said it differently. + Cait has much less judgement for those people now than she did as a young child (even thinking she would say things differently from some of her speaking sessions after listening back). + "I have always wanted to be at the front of the room, the person explaining the things….I am always happy to leave my own words behind and find another way in that suits a listener, a student, a participant." – Cait Donovan + Cait loves teaching, and for her speaking is a way to allow people to experience a shift in the time she has with the audience. She wants people to understand they are not alone, something can be done differently, that there is another option, etc. + This desire has always been a part of Cait (to stand at the front of the room). * When Cait was in Poland, the first corporate event Cait did was a stress management event in 2009 for an audience of executives. + She spent the next several years in Europe teaching acupuncture skills to acupuncturists via teaching at acupuncture schools and weekend workshops. She was teaching orthopedic acupuncture, scalp acupuncture, and other things people in Europe don’t have access to (schools there less robust than in the US). She would often teach the courses in Polish or Czech and is fluent in Polish. * When doing speaking, Kate gets anxious but excited (or anxcited as she calls it) and tries to combine the energies for each. + No matter how good you are and how well you show up, there will always be somoene in the audience who hates you (part of the life of a speaker). + Cait has learned to tune more into her own authenticity and integrity to show up and be the person she wants to be on stage rather than shifting to please those who are going to hate her / might say something bad about her. She spent many years with the opposite problem. + Cait shares some feedback from a recent speaking engagement at which she was 1 of 9 other speakers. She was rated the highest out of the 9 by about 12%. Despite this and getting feedback from 75% of attendees about the usefulness of her content, 2% of the audience said attending Cait’s session was a total waste of time. Cait tells us it’s always going to be like that. + Cait is not afraid to say she doesn’t know if she doesn’t know something. Cait also aims to speak to audiences that she feels a resonance with. - Listen to Cait’s example of a fellow speaker who went in to speak on joy but had the wrong audience. - As a speaker you have to understand and choose the right audiences or risk being less successful. You need market fit.
14:42 – Charging for Services* Nick suspects doing something for free for a long time and then deciding to charge money for it later is challenging. + Cait doesn’t like to admit it, but this is torture. + The prices she charges now are absolutely not reachable by people she grew up with. + When Cait charges less than what she feels she should, she feels resentful. Part of market fit is choosing the people she will serve carefully so that the time invested is worth the return and benefit. + One of the things that helps Cait have higher prices is the social justice element built into her business – FRIED. This is a weekly podcast that is 100% free that takes up a lot of time and money. + After doing the math, Cait figured out producing the podcasts costs her anywhere from $30,000 to $40,000 pear year in time and money. To Cait, this is something that must be paid for through speaking and coaching. + When Cait is coaching, the money people pay is more about how much the coaching changes their life. - Dealing with burnout now could save you hundreds and thousands in healthcare down the line. - The money Cait charges is minimal compared to what you save getting this in order now. You can also get back to work faster as a result and start earning money again. If you were going to have to take 2 years off work to deal with burnout but working with Cait could get you back to work in 7 months, that’s 13 months of savings compared to doing this on your own. + Cait feels the transformative aspect of what she is offering is well justified. And if you are somoene who is fortunate enough to pay it, you should want to contribute to the fact that she does these other things we’ve discussed. - There are people who cannot afford to hire Cait, but they can leverage the podcast and the Facebook group. - For context, Cait answers questions in the Facebook group the same way she would answer a client (no holding back). - In addition to the podcast and Facebook group, Cait offers office hours 4 times per month. You can ask Cait whatever you like, and she would answer your question the same way she would answer a client. + Cait does all these things so people with no access to resources can still access help. People who invest in working with Cait for coaching or speaking are helping to further her mission and purpose (i.e. helping people who do not have the resources have access to as much of them as possible). + Building these things into her business helped her balance the fee she was charging
19:05 – Advice for the Content Builder* When Cait first started the podcast, she did it on her own. She had an expensive microphone and did not realize it needed to be well suited to a room. + With her foot in a cast after achilles surgery, Cait was living with her parents. She couldn’t get out to walk the dog twice per day because she could not walk. And her husband worked in an office all day. + Cait would sit in her mother’s living room with her mic plugged into a Mac. Reflecting on it, Cait says the sound is terrible for the first season and shares a recent review from a listener about the early audio quality. Cait tried her best and says the quality is way better starting about halfway through season 2. + Cait learned how to edit by herself, was doing show notes by herself, and doing all of it alone (guest recruitment too). + June 2023 will mark the 4th anniversary of Cait’s podcast starting. It was April 2021 when she started paying someone to do it, saving her 6-8 hours per week at least between editing, show notes, social media (a full working day to get the things finished). + Cait was also pursuing another degree at the time. She knew she could not run a business, pursue a degree, and run the podcast all concurrently. * What about the creator who wants to turn something they are creating into a business? + Keep it simple. You don’t have to do all the things at the beginning. - As soon as Cait realized the sound wasn’t great, she made changes. Cait recorded the next year or so of podcast episodes with standard Apple ear buds. And it still sounded ok. - You might need to lower your expectations a little bit. - Be careful on deciding how often you plan to publish. Releasing a show once per week may seem like not so much because you have an entire week to do it. In reality, you don’t have that full week. Nick can confirm you cannot do it last minute. + You don’t have to do anything like anyone else is doing it. - If you want to give people a 3-minute tip every morning, record it and post it. Don’t use intros and outros and keep it simple. - "Just get it out there…because you’re not going to find out if you love it and if it really fuels you until you’re really doing it." – Cait Donovan on shipping your work. - If you produce something that is terrible but you love it, you can shut it down and start fresh. + You don’t have to really dig in from the outset. That can come later. - Cait says there are a lot of people selling expensive microphones on Facebook Marketplace because they recorded a few episodes and stopped. - Nick cites his and John’s plan to invest in higher quality gear if they made it to 100 episodes. They started with $80 microphones. - Cait uses a podcast mic now that is popular in the podcasting space but that came with the boom arm and headphones…all for about $130 on Amazon.com. And it sounds great! - Cait had an extra closet in her house that she built into a podcasting studio. She ordered felt pads from Amazon and taped them to the wall. It works. We’re not talking about someone coming to build a new room onto her house or a broadcasting booth. + Keep it simple by not making it any more difficult than it needs to be. + Don’t expect to hit 1000 downloads quickly unless you are really popular. + Don’t expect your friends and family to listen to your show. They don’t care and already listen to you talk enough. They have heard you talk about the show and probably know some of the things you are going to say. - Nick says his wife has listened to a couple of episodes and probably knows what he’ll say. - Cait says he husband has never listened to her show.
24:56 – A Business Owner’s Safety* Cait has only ever worked for herself and cannot speak to working for an employer vs. working for yourself. * If you dislike inconsistent income, entrepreneurship is not for you. If you need a check to come in consistently, this is not for you. It goes back to the discussion on safety (in this case financial safety). + Financial safety for Cait means she has the ability at any given moment to earn as much as she needs. + If she needs extra money, she can create a new course, advertise more, and several other possibilities. + Cait’s husband can do anything (feeling there is no wiggle room here). Cait likes the control of owning a business, but that is her version of safety. * Build the business the way you want it to run in the future. + For example, if you only want to work for 20 hours per week so you can do other things, build the business only working 20 hour weeks. + If you don’t do this, it is extremely easy for an entrepreneur to fill days with other things and can lead to 40, 50, and 60 hour weeks. + You may think to yourself that you will cut things back once you get the business going. Don’t lie to yourself. No, you won’t. + Parkinson’s Law essentially states a task takes as long as you have to do it. This is absolutely true. + "You can post to social media in 5 minutes or 3 hours. Trust me…I’ve done both." – Cait Donovan + Cait does not take coaching calls on Mondays or Fridays. Taking a call on one of those days is to connect with someone or to network (something she wants to do that is extraneous). You cannot book a coaching call with Cait on Monday or Friday. She’s made her availability and its boundaries very clear. And if she wants to take a trip out of town for a long weekend to be with her husband who often travels, she can do that and not have to cancel a full day of her schedule. + "I can only do that because I work for myself…and because I trust that during the other 3 days a week, I can earn the kind of money I want to earn." – Cait Donovan + The blocking of Monday and Friday enables Cait to have more energy during the other 3 days of her week. If there’s anything she specifically wants to do and needs to take care of on a Monday or a Friday, she is not interrupted by calls. - Cait really likes focus music on YouTube. She will put it on for 3 hours and sets a timer for 45 minutes at a time. Cait will work straight for 45 minutes and will then get up and leave her office. - "I just have to get up, leave the space, and then I come back and do it again." – Cait Donovan - When it comes to setting herself with how she wants to work for engaging with work when she feels like it, Cait owns all the decisions. - Once Cait starts to feel resentful that the calendar is too full, she will sit back and take stock of how she is spending time. Every once in a while Cait has to not take networking calls for a month since her natural tendency is to want to help people (and can lead to overextension). You cannot notice these things unless you’re mindful that they are happening. You need to know your baseline as well. - "You offered your time. They are using it. But if you’re mad about it, change the rules." – Cait Donovan on avoiding victim mentality when your calendar gets too busy
31:09 – Breathing Room for the Business* Though Cait has people working for her, she still has trouble releasing control of certain things. + Cait’s understanding from talking to other people that a CEO does much more delegation and management. + Cait considers herself in the trenches and not CEO style just yet. She’s not sure if that is a place she might want to be in the future. + "Right now, I want to be in the trenches. I want to be on the stages. I want to be with my 1-1 clients. I desire those moments. And I don’t think CEO mind is that. But, I could be wrong…because I don’t know." – Cait Donovan * Cait has owned her own businesses since 2007, and before this she was a bartender (which is really working on tips alone and like working for yourself). * Cait says she’s learned that planning too much in advance and deciding how she wants things to be sometimes blocks the business from growing in a way that is surprising and even more fulfilling. + "If I give the business a little bit of breathing room and watch what unfolds, I can sometimes follow that and lean into the things that are working so that things are easier rather than trying to build something and pull everything along behind me." – Cait Donovan + Cait tells us she can be the caboose of the business instead of the engine in front. She can pull the brakes from there if needed. - Cait didn’t know what FRIED is going to do when it began. - Recently people have reached out to Cait about helping to start a podcast for their business to showcase employee stories and build up culture. It’s not come to fruition yet, but previous to hearing about it she didn’t even know that was a possibility (and certainly was not in the business plan). - "If I would have created these really strict rules about where I’m going, I might have missed the beautiful right turn that could be happening. I don’t want to miss the beautiful right turns. I don’t know what’s best all the time." – Cait Donovan on allowing a business to be flexible as it grows
34:08 – Board of Advisors* Cait currently serves on the board of directors of the New York City National Speaker’s Association. + The most difficult thing for Cait as part of this and also the most valuable to her is learning how to better work with a team (learning teamwork). + Cait is very good at doing things by herself, and it can be difficult for her to wait for people to come to a consensus. + There are beautiful things about boards of directors that she did not previously realize. When the board comes together, it can be an environment where ideas flourish (i.e. someone pitches an idea and then people add to it to the point the idea is something the group should further investigate). + Similarly the group can often help people see an idea may not be as great as someone may think (i.e. good in theory but perhaps not in practice). Proposing something to the group in this way can also allow someone to release a hold on an idea they may think is great. - "You don’t need to have it take up any more space in your brain or your body…because you’ve had people check it out with you, and there are too many holes in it." – Cait Donovan - Cait says it is a powerful thing to be able to let go of ideas that aren’t going to work and gives an example about a business plan that her friend worked on for a year but in the end found was not feasible. + There’s something to be said about having a board or a set of trusted advisors who can poke holes in your ideas to ensure your eventual success. It can save you so much time, money, and headache on things which might not be viable. + In the case of something not being viable, maybe the board can help you figure out what would make it viable. And if that goes against your values you could sell the idea. + "Sometimes it is good to have people around who that can both build up your ideas and make them better and break down your ideas so you can let them go."- Cait Donovan + Being on a board also provides a sense of belonging. * Qualifications to serve on a board are usually a willingness to serve on one (usually unpaid) and a network (you need to know the people who are going to ask you).
37:46 – The Breakout Speaker and the Keynote Speaker* When asked about gaps in the breakout speaker at a conference and the keynote speaker, Cait mentions The Referable Speaker: Your Guide to Building a Sustainable Speaking Career by Michael Port and Andrew Davis. + In the book they speak to people being in expertville and others in visionary town. + Expertville is breakout sessions. The focus is knowledge and sharing it. + Visionary town is keynotes. It is changing people’s hearts and getting them to think a different way. These are usually more inspirational. They can still teach people something, but the focus isn’t specifically more knowledge but more wisdom. + Cait says neither of these is better than the other. She likes living in visionary town because it suits her heart. But we need people who are living in expertville, people who are teaching concrete tools to get through specific problems. * Cait says the distinction between the two types of speakers above is important. When you’re getting on stage to keynote, you have to bring all your good energy with you. You have to boost yourself so you are giving people everything you have. + "You don’t have to do that in a breakout room. In a breakout room you just have to go and tell people what you know." – Cait Donovan + Nick says maybe as a breakout speaker you get to the point where you start to bring in more energy. + Cait says you can be a breakout speaker and have a great career and make good money. Not everyone is designed to be a keynote speaker, and that is ok. + "I don’t think the impact is different in those rooms [breakout rooms]. It’s just different." – Cait Donovan * The best place to get in touch with Cait is on the site for FRIED: The Burnout Podcast
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 214 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of a discussion with Cait Donovan, talking all things burnout from what it is and is not, how we miss diagnosing it, burnout prevention and recovery, seeking help, and some patterns and trends.
Original Recording Date: 1-21-2023
Topics – Meet Cait Donovan, Definition of Burnout and Why We Miss Detecting It, Patterns of Burnout and Values Mismatch, Recovery vs. Prevention, Seeking Help, Corporate Burnout Trends, This Is Over2:47 – Meet Cait Donovan* Cait Donovan loves everything nerd. + She spends most of her time giving keynote speeches, recording audio for her podcast (FRIED: The Burnout Podcast), authoring books, and / or working 1-1 with coaching clients who are going through burnout. Everything falls under the umbrella of burnout recovery (her main focus). + At the time of this recording, Cait is working on another degree focused on the way stress impacts the body from prenatal times until death. There is a lot of research Cait has access to now that she can read which didn’t previously exist. - Cait spends her time thinking about burnout, dreaming about burnout, talking about burnout, and writing about burnout. - Nick remembers hearing about Cait’s study of acupuncture on an episode of Teach the Geek and says a study of stress makes complete sense. People would definitely appreciate the focus on continued professional development in their coach! - Many people talk about the research these days and share what the neuroscience says. - Cait wanted to pursue a degree to read the research firsthand and really digest it to understand the research as well as she can at her level. She’s not a neuroscientist or a neurosurgeon, but when we’re talking about a stress response in the brain Cait has a pretty good handle on it. - Nick refers to this as seeking the holistic context points around burnout.
5:09 – Definition of Burnout and Why We Miss Detecting It* After listening to Cait’s podcast, the use of the word burnout may be equivalent to the use of the word cloud. We don’t always know if people mean the same thing when they say it. So let’s level set and define terms! * As of the date of this recording (January 2023), the World Health Organization (or WHO) has an agreed upon definition for burnout. + Burnout is the result of chronic stress in the workplace that has been mismanaged or unmanaged. + In order for us to say a situation is burnout there must be 3 things present. All 3 must be present to call it burnout. - Physical and emotional exhaustion – counts as one thing but could encompass 700 or more symptoms - Cynicism and detachment – being negative, feeling you cannot connect to people at work or people in your family, etc. - Feeling like your work is not impactful, having low productivity, feeling a lack of appreciation for what you do and why it matters (listed in various ways and forms but boils down to these items…with this possibly being a more holistic definition than what is listed on the WHO’s website) + The thing that differentiates burnout from something like depression in the mind of the WHO is that burnout is about your workplace / is a workplace syndrome (which Cait disagrees with). At present this is the only delineation (which seems nonsensical). + Cait shares a story about a post on LinkedIn in which someone wished we would stop using the term burnout and say we’re depressed. - While there may be some overlap between burnout and depression they are not really the same thing. In a similar light, depression and anxiety are not really the same thing though they do share an overlap. - We may not have enough information on how stress sits in the body over time, about neuroscience, and on the gut microbiome, to really wriggle out strict differentiators between this and that. - Cait has experienced each of these at different times, and her own experience says they are different things. * Cait realized she was burned out in 2016. At that time she had not really even heard the word burnout. Even at that time it wasn’t something commonly said at all. + Now burnout seems to be part of our normal lingo, and people may be saying when they are tired (definitely not the same thing). + Cait feels people may also not be using the term when they should be, so burnout is over and under used at the same time. * When Nick asked how people might be able to notice / determine they are burned out earlier, Cait uses the analogy of hip pain. + Have you ever noticed random hip pain while sitting at your desk? This seems to only happen when you sit too much and doesn’t require a doctor visit. So you put a small cushion underneath you and make an effort to get up once an hour to stretch. + Two months later you are used to the hip pain. It’s not better or worse, and you have many mechanisms to deal with it. And then your neck starts hurting (which is likely connected to the hip pain even without you realizing it). + After a number of adjustments for your neck, you start having consistent migraines a couple months later. It begins to really become a problem for which you are seeking help. + If you had dealt with the hip pain months ago, you might not be in this situation. + Burnout is much the same. Many of the stressors that come into our lives are things for which we end up creating coping mechanisms that mostly work. With all the adjustments we are making we don’t realize something is wrong until we are unable to do our work, to get through a day, or to wake up and feel any motivation. + Cait says it seems like people get judged for not taking action sooner, but we shouldn’t judge them. It is human nature to have a problem and then adapt. We need to give people a bit more grace when it comes to noticing something before it reaches this stage. + Nick suggests this is equivalent to the aggregation of marginal gains that Ben Bergeron references in Chasing Excellence but more like an aggregation of detriments. + Cait says things can be as small as ignoring your bladder signals when you have to pee. - If you do this all day long your body starts to get tense. That tension tells your body that you are stressed. - "The only thing you’re doing is writing 3 more e-mails instead of going to the bathroom. But when you do that, all day every day it becomes part of a pattern. What do you ignore next?" – Cait Donovan - Next you start ignoring drinking water because you don’t want to have to go to the bathroom because it’s interrupting your e-mails (and you’re holding it anyway). Now you’re dehydrated. - "It’s just this series of missteps. None of them have to be very serious or with any sort of malintent. You’re just trying to get your work done." – Cait Donovan * Since the pandemic, many are working from home, and many are working more than before. + Cait doesn’t agree that one needs a commute to work. But the commute did get you up, showered, dressed, and walking to your car, from a car to an office, getting up from your desk at the end of the day, and having a ritual that broke up your working day from your home day. We don’t necessarily have those things in place any longer. + Cait says this is dangerous. We need those rituals and transitions. Cait has a recommendation for coaching clients who work from home to help here (a closing ceremony if you will): - Shutdown your computer fully when you finish your day (not put to sleep but completely shut off). - Cover your computer with a blanket or something else as an indication that your day is over. - The person is not to uncover the computer until it is time to sit down and get back to work. + Nick calls this a shutdown routine for the end of the workday and mentions we don’t often have one of these. - We understand many will merely move to using their phone upon computer shutdown. Ideally there would be some separation from the phone as well for work related items, but that’s an area where both Cait and Nick themselves struggle. * Where are Cait and Nick’s respective phones during this interview? Would they do the same during a work day? Listen closely.
15:04 – Patterns of Burnout and Values Mismatch* We know (due to studies on it) that doctors and nurses are highly stressed and at high risk for burnout. * Event planning is on the top 5 list of most stressful jobs (and would be at a higher risk). * In the medical field, veterinarians and dentists are higher than most anyone else. * Even in the tech world, we are looking at 52% of people at a minimum are saying they are on the edge or burned out already. * Nick does not remember hearing anything about burnout before around 2017. + Cait says in the tech world so much of the work does not / may not rely on human connection, which is a protective factor against burnout (also a longevity and a happiness factor over the course of a lifetime). + Though someone may love working on a computer all day and not really needing to deal with people, but long term it works against you. + Nick mentions a TED talk about longevity and connection (view the video here). + Cait mentions a Harvard study (85 year study) on happiness and longevity with the most important factor being connection. Read more on that here + Nick asked if these studies and talks were speaking specifically to in person connection or whether our context of connection extended to video calls and other remote options. Cait says she believes they both count. + "The idea of connection and community is around feeling safe and accepted and that you belong somewhere." – Cait Donovan + The understanding that you will not be alone in really harsh times and that people will support you when things go haywire is the most important piece. This kind of connection requires people know each other long enough, be in each other’s lives long enough, and go through enough ups and downs together to have confirmation that the belonging is real. - Cait says the breakdown of church communities, for example, can be an issue on the belonging scale for many people. Even if they were not big believers people still would feel like they were part of a community which would support them in difficult times (i.e. if a house caught fire, etc.). - We’re missing the belonging piece, specifically the belonging to each other (which Cait says is very Brene Brown). - Nick says this is similar to marrying into a family and having the realization one day that you really do belong. Nick says his father-in-law treats Nick as his son. - Cait says not everyone has this kind of experience with their in-laws or even their own families and that we must choose carefully who we surround ourselves with. + The stress response is not just about being in physical danger as Cait says. The other incredibly being factor was being ostracized. We used to live in very small communities of people (like 50-150 people). - If you’re part of a community this small everyone has their function (helping others get food, ensuring they can sleep well, etc.). - If you’re ostracized and only ever learned your skill you have no way to protect yourself, no way to gather food, no way to feed yourself, no way to cook anything, etc. Being ostracized was just as dangerous as being chased by a tiger. + This belonging piece has been very much overlooked in a lot of literature. + Cait says you don’t need to belong to a large number of people. It can be 1 or 2 even. You need to have a space where you as you are accepted fully for who you are, where you can mess up and still be loved. * Nick suggests many people in the workforce are looking for this belonging in an organization / their employer. + Cait says this is psychological safety and is a huge area of study as far as workplace development and workplace culture are concerned. + Is Cait seeing a big mismatch in the way people want to work and the way they are forced to work? - If you’re being forced to work in a way that you don’t want to in today’s day and age, go get another job. - Every single worker needs something different, and we cannot make every work environment ideal for every worker. - If most people are cool with the way things are and you aren’t, get yourself out of there. - We cannot put all the responsibility on our employer and have to own the fact that we are choosing to show up somewhere. + There is a ton of research by Christina Maslach and Michael Leiter (considered the leading burnout researchers of the past 40 years). One of the 6 main factors they notice in the workplace that leads to burnout is a values mismatch. - A values mismatch can become evident when you want to work one way but a company wants you to work a different way. For example, your value is in this case being home with your family while the company value is being connected to people at work. - The mismatch is more in the values and not the method of working. - The values determine the method, and they are actually more important than the method. We needed to go one level deeper to really understand this process. - A values mismatch can be between a company and a person. But it can also be between a company’s spoken values and its values in action (i.e. what the company does vs. what it is saying). If company actions and words are mismatched, many employees can have a values mismatch because of the lack of integrity. This is a major contributor to burnout. - As an example, Cait has been studying health since graduating high school (roughly 23 years) and probably would not go work for Philip Morris due to a clear values mismatch.
24:06 – Recovery vs. Prevention* Nick states that we’ve hit on root cause analysis twice in the discussion (values mismatch and hip pain that turned into a huge problem). These seem very helpful for burnout recovery. What about burnout prevention? + If you’re a naturally high stress person, focusing on burnout prevention is a decent plan. However, Cait doesn’t really believe in burnout prevention because most of the time we’re not aware that burnout is happening. + Likely everyone should be on some form of cancer prevention diet, but the chances we are going to do that before there are some signs is minimal. + If there are signs of something being wrong, we already have to talk about treatment. + "Burnout prevention tools are stress management tools. There is no difference. That’s just what they are." – Cait Donovan + People who already have cancer need treatment, for example. It is the same with burnout and those who are already burned out. They need treatment, and prevention won’t get you anywhere in those cases. + Burnout recovery requires unwinding layers of adaptations and coping mechanisms, the minor shifts you have been making from a young age to… - Please other people - To be a perfectionist - To not have boundaries - To never say no + You’re unwinding all these things in an effort to create a better system for yourself. The layers of protection you’ve put on over the years that you thought would keep you safe have now become too heavy a sweatsuit to wear all the time. + Cait has created a holistic board of what makes people vulnerable to burnout (see this page for the link). - The biggest shift we would make if we could control it would be for everyone to grow up in a family that loves them, secure attachment would happen, and we would learn emotional intelligence as we grow. This likely is not going to happen. - Cait grew up in a very low income family in Massachusetts. The people she grew up around and in that environment don’t have time to think about these things. They are just trying to feed their children more than twice a day. - "We cannot expect the people who do not have the skills or the resources to make the kind of shift we need them to make so that people don’t burnout 30 years later." – Cait Donovan - This has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with resources (i.e. resources inform and shape the priorities like feeding your family, etc.). + If we look at overall root causes of burnout it is a combination of - Your health - Your constitution (genetics / epigenetics) - Your family of origin - How you were spoken to - The kind of coping mechanisms you created to survive and feel safe - Cultural factors that protected you from or enhanced the coping mechanisms + This goes to show that fixing corporate culture is only one part of the picture. + Cait mentions a very interesting piece of research which states that if a mother is pregnant with a daughter and has a very high stress event during her pregnancy, it possible for an epigenetic shift in the fetus makes the daughter’s stress response less apt to function at a normal level (often times 30% less). This is typically passed down by a mother to a daughter and can make it really hard when we tell someone to go find a new workplace to get out of a less than ideal situation. - Epigenetics do not modify DNA but certainly impact the function of DNA (like pa volume lever on a DNA chain). - These types of things can be shifted into a better situation, but it requires safety, belonging, the ability to receive love, meditation, a good amount of movement, good food, etc. + If you’re born with this condition you’re at 70% capacity and are already more stressed out than anyone else. You create coping mechanisms around eating and drinking. - You’re not getting the things you need but don’t know you need them. - You might start to judge yourself because you cannot get as much accomplished as everyone else. - If you grew up in a family with some kind of an addiction or something else, that adds even more complication.
31:22 – Seeking Help* At what point do people generally ask for help, or what does it take? + Most people that burn out are DIY (do it yourself) type people who think they can do it all themselves (which is part of the reason they made it here in the first place). + At first people seek out help independently and will find a podcast like Cait’s (FRIED) or will reason some books (Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily and Amelia Nagoski). + After 6 months or so when people still don’t feel right is generally when they begin to seek help. There are many things that can help you, such as: - Therapy with a trauma informed therapist who understands burnout (i.e. look for trauma informed and burnout on a therapist’s website). - Coaches can help, but you have to be careful because coaching is not regulated. You need to be around someone long enough to ensure you can actually trust them. - This is one of the reasons Cait has FRIED. If you don’t trust her after over 180 episodes, then you never will. She is not your person. And that is ok. Part of burnout recovery requires that you feel safe. - "If you’re not going to trust me and you’re not going to feel safe with me, we’re not going to make progress." – Cait Donovan on the importance of finding the right someone to help if you’re burned out - You need that belonging (must be there). It can be therapy, coaching, or community work / volunteering (even though it seems like extra work at first but in the end creates belonging and safety). - You can try yoga, rapid transformational therapy, EDMR, etc. There are millions of ways to begin the recovery process. * During the recovery process, the things that you need to know most are: + You need to feel safe. + There will be coping mechanisms and things you think are "just your personality" which will need to shift (requiring you to let go of some things). - Cait shares a story from the FRIED Facebook Group in which someone was worried about going back to work. Cait had to tell this person they can’t be a give it 200% kind of person any longer. Get it down to more like 110% or even 80%. That kind of effort is what originally got the person to where they ended up. - Identity, personality, and trauma response mechanisms get mixed together often times. - We have to let go of some coping mechanisms that got us to burnout without demonizing them. The number 1 rule in FRIED burnout coaching is to never demonize a client’s coping mechanisms. - When these mechanisms were created, they were useful and probably worked for 20 years. They would not have been repeatedly used if they did not work. - "But now, something in the system has changed, it’s hurting you more than it’s helping you, and it’s time to make a change." – Cait Donovan on getting away from certain coping mechanisms - Cait gives the example of being rewarded as a child with ice cream and this process continuing to the point where you’ve given yourself diabetes as an adult. - "Nobody became a perfectionist just because. They became a perfectionist because they did it a few times and got praised for it." – Cait Donovan - We don’t demonize the coping mechanisms because they were originally put in place to protect us. Be thankful it was so useful in your life. - Look for areas in your life where the mechanism is still useful (i.e. a neurosurgeon being a perfectionist in surgery) and the areas where you might need another way (i.e. no need for perfectionism in the way a neurosurgeon fold towels, etc.).
37:19 – Corporate Burnout Trends* From Cait’s perspective, toward the end of the pandemic there was a big upswing in wellness resources and benefits offered by different companies. + But, with current fears of an impending recession, some companies are making cuts. Some of the first things to go are employee resources. * Some companies made promises and commitments that they meant and continue to dig in, while others are ok waiting a few years to really take action on providing employee resources that would help in regard to burnout. + Some companies that have a great culture might think they are ok and that they don’t need to do anything at present. + Burnout isn’t just a workplace issue. One of the reasons it went so high over the course of the past couple years is because dealing with the pandemic was hard. It was emotional and introduced the needs for all kinds of coping mechanisms (some we had, some we never knew we needed). + No one had the wherewithal to deal with some of these things in the moment. People are just now beginning to be able to deal with the pandemic’s impact on them. + A lot of companies are waiting for the bomb to hit. If only 5% of employees are experiencing burnout, perhaps some leaders would say it isn’t worth it…yet. The numbers will continue to increase until eventually an intervention gets requested. + People Cait knows working in the corporate space are doing 12, 18, and 24-month corporate interventions and charging a hefty price to implement the work (i.e. might take 8 people to help implement the necessary changes for coaching an executive team, etc.).
40:50 – Watching the Signs* People who burnout and recover are more likely to burnout again. * Cait has to keep an eye on herself. Her natural coping mechanisms are to overdo it, ignore her body, be a perfectionist, please everyone around her, and not say no. * When Cait finds herself in those positions, there are specific signs with her physical sign being neck pain and emotional sign being resentment. + When Cait is resentful more often than not she is not in a good space. That means she has committed herself to too many things, she isn’t happy about the way the commitments are paying her back for her time, and at this point Cait needs to do an assessment of what needs to drop off. + A keynote presentation requires around 40 hours of prep for a 1-hour presentation, and once it is over, Cait needs some time to recover from the depletion. + For example, Cait received a request to present at a summit during a week when she was already committed to doing 2 keynotes. The person running the summit was planning to allow free access and then paid access at a later time. In this instance Cait would not have benefitted from participating and not being compensated. The keynotes are paid work and in front of Cait’s target market. - "I didn’t even say yes yet, and I was already a little bit resentful. To me, that’s a beautiful thing. Because as soon as I see that resentment I’m like, oh…I don’t actually want to do this. If I do this I am going to be mad about it. I don’t want to do things I’m going to be mad about….If I’m going to do something, I want to be able to show up the way I’m able to show up today. I’m happy to be here. I was excited to talk to you. I like what you’re doing, so I’m happy to show up and be here fully and be engaged in it. If I’m not going to do it that way, then I don’t want to do it." Cait Donovan on using feelings of resentment to help make decisions about a time commitment - Cait ultimately said no to the summit request but feels several years ago she would not have been able to say no.
43:56 – This Is Over* Speaking of saying no, Cait had to say no at one point to continuing in her acupuncturist business. + People who go through burnout have to release a way of working, which is releasing an identity, and there is a grieving process you have to go through for this. + Cait was an acupuncturist for 13 years, moved back to the United States, and wanted to open an office there but could not due to a ruptured achilles. She couldn’t even stand as a result, so it took her a while to look into investing in opening an office. + Once she opened the office and wasn’t in constant debt, COVID hit, shutting them down for 4 months. Things started to open up a little, but people were still nervous. + They were shutdown a second time. It was too much of a fight and wasn’t working. Coaching and speaking was working. + Holding onto the acupuncture business meant Cait was spending 2 days per week going into New York City (a 45 minute commute). She would get there around 10 AM and get home at 9 PM, and there was no room for anything else during those days (no coaching, workshops, speaking), leaving only 3 days per week left over to pursue what was working. + "It just was a smarter decision for me to throw all my eggs in this basket and really try and make this part of things work." – Cait Donovan on deciding to give up her acupuncture business + At the same time, Cait did not close the door to the possibility of opening another acupuncture business in the future. These services are great for mental health. + Even though this was a "not right now" kind of thing for Cait, she treated it as "this is over." She needed to allow herself to go through the grieving process and not sit in the "what ifs" for years. She continued staying educated on acupuncture topics to keep a license. + "I have to say goodbye to this right now…because I can’t be both feet into building this business if I’ve still got a toe over there." – Cait Donovan
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Post-Edit Show NotesWelcome to episode 213 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of a discussion with Leah White. We’ll hear the story of what prompted Leah to make a job change after losing an advocate and how the transition has been, address layoffs and resume gaps, explore the idea of recruiters as advocates for candidates, and discuss the current job market.
Original Recording Date: 01-24-2023
Leah White is a sourcing recruiter for Veeam who works on roles across the US and Canada identified as needing additional recruitment support. In case you missed it, part 1 of our discussion with Leah can be found in Episode 212.
Topics – Following the Lead, Making an Impact, Document Accomplishments, Reasons for a Job Change and a Niche Market, Trust in Recruiters, Layoffs and Parting Thoughts3:24 – Following the Lead* At Accenture Leah was really in her comfort zone and enjoyed the work she did. Even as a remote employee, she did not feel like she was on an island but rather that she was very engaged with peers across the country. * It was very comfortable until the day Leah found out her amazing lead at Accenture (Jennifer) was leaving the company. + It was at this point in time Leah realized how important it was for her to have an advocate. Jennifer would constantly raise her hand for sourcing, and Leah always felt like a valued employee even though she was a contractor. + When Jennifer left there was a void. Leah knew she didn’t have an advocate and became unsure whether people would still see her value. + "Even though the environment hadn’t really changed, I didn’t feel as comfortable as I had been." – Leah White, describing her feelings after departure of an advocate + After spending a few days being a bit depressed at this loss Leah told herself she needed to be open. She had not been looking for other roles because she had been so comfortable. This is when Leah began to look. * Leah found that Jennifer had gone to Veeam, and at the time Leah had never heard of them (which she found odd since it was part of a solution package Accenture consultants offered). + After Leah did a little research on Veeam as a company she found them to be a great company with industry leading solutions and over 30 countries. From what Leah saw they had some amazing initiatives for women. + Leah began to talk to others within Veeam and was able to learn about the ERGs (Employee Resource Groups). These are groups within the organization founded by employees to promote things like inclusion and community activities for example. + When people say the culture somewhere is great you tend to wonder how much of that is talk and how much is real. Even if Leah didn’t trust everything she heard about the culture automatically, she trusted her former lead and her decision making. Leah says she was an amazing lead. Because Leah did not believe her lead would make a move to another company without some due diligence, it prompted Leah to do more investigation on Veeam. * Leah can say she was not disappointed transitioning to Veeam. + When she started she was of course looking around to see if it was going to be what she thought. There was a large virtual event in which Leah saw a woman as one of the keynote speakers. This woman had blue hair, black lipstick, and was dressed casually standing next to a man in a 3-piece suit. Seeing this made Leah think, "this is culture. This is really diversity." - This experience was eye opening for Leah. She was able to really see the women’s initiatives. * "It wasn’t just talk. It was real." – Leah White + In every other organization where Leah has worked there was a feeling of not being able to be 100% herself. She would wonder what she should look like when presenting herself on behalf of the company. + Leah has completely embraced the culture and the ERGs and can use this when communicating with candidates. She isn’t just talking fluff but rather can speak to her experiences. It’s so important to a candidate conversation to get this kind of perspective. * The interest in looking at Veeam was because that’s where her lead went. Leah had planned to look at multiple options no matter what. + Since she knew nothing about Veeam this made her take a look at the company. + As Leah looked at other opportunities, they didn’t stack up to what Veeam was offering.
8:48 – Making an Impact* Leah moved from a publicly traded company in Accenture to a privately held company in Veeam. + There overall structure of the two companies was different. + While Leah did a lot of great things during her time at Accenture, she feels there is more value add to her impact at Veeam. + Sourcing was new to Veeam, and it was a new investment they decided to make when Leah came onboard. She feels like she is making more of an impact as a result. + When you are evaluating your opportunities, get a feel for what it is you are looking to achieve. Then consider whether you can do that within the setting of the company with the open opportunity. + As Leah looked for that next opportunity after Accenture, she wanted to find something that would allow her to make more of a difference, something that would allow her to be a difference maker. + Leah had a co-worker who, speaking about a recent candidate interview, said she thought the candidate could step into the role but was not sure the candidate could make a difference. The candidate had not shared anything in previous discussions that indicated they were wanting to make a difference. When Leah’s co-worker asked this candidate what he wanted to do, there was no real answer about what the person really wanted to accomplish. + Leah went into her job search looking to make a difference and felt she would make a greater impact at Veeam versus some of the other options. * Nick suggests getting in on a role that was new to the organization aligns with the pattern of seeking flexibility that John pointed out earlier. + Leah says yes and would add opportunity to make an impact. When speaking to a candidate about a new role at the organization, Leah calls that out to the candidate. It’s not a backfill, not something the company has had before, and is something the candidate has the chance to shape / put a hand print on. - A role being new means they likely would not necessarily keep it as it is written on paper. The candidate may come in, make a huge impact, and the company then realizes they found exactly what they were looking for even though they did not realize it. * Nick says the ability to make an impact gives purpose to our work. But it is likely we do not think enough about this when we go looking for opportunities (communicating the purpose we want in our work). + As an example, when doing a technical project you need to be able to state the business outcome. When you go and do technical work, think about the outcome this will make on the company and the outcome for yourself. If those align maybe it’s a good fit, sort of like candidate career alignment. + Leah says it is so important as a recruiter to get a clear idea of what the candidate truly wants to do. A recruiter can then go and see what a typical career pathway is for a specific role. + If a candidate wants to be in a specific spot in 5 years and a certain role is not a way to get them there, it enables an open conversation with the recruiter about something being the right fit / right opportunity. The candidate is likely going to leave the company if taking a role is not in line with what they want to eventually be doing. + Leah says candidates have not often thought of this kind of thing. Recruiters can raise this question in a thoughtful way, and sometimes the candidate will bow out as a result. But it is the right thing for the company making the investment and the right thing for the candidate. * What does Leah wish she would have known going into a role that was new to the organization (i.e. sourcing at Veeam) that she would advise others keep in mind? Is there a way to figure out how serious an organization is about this new role and what would happen to the people in it if it doesn’t work out (i.e. fired / moved to other positions, etc.)? + Leah was worried about those same things. She didn’t want to go somewhere that had only temporary opportunities. She had many questions. + Leah wanted to know what the goal was for this new department and what else had been brought to the table recently. She wanted to know what other new initiatives have happened. + Leah learned sourcing was not the only new area of the organization recently created. There were other areas where they had brought in talent and put in leadership for within Veeam (a sign of clear investment). + Leah suggests if you’re in this situation look at the choices company leadership is making. + As of this recording Veeam has not had layoffs like many other companies in the technology industry. Leah feels this is a reflection of good leadership, decision making, planning, and responsible growth. + If you can ask about those initiatives and get some information about company decision making, you have a pretty clear forecast of what you can look forward to in working at a company. + John says these things can be difficult to tease out in the interview process, and we would need to keep them in mind as we think of questions which need to be asked. For example… - What do you see as the organization’s commitment to this type of role? - Do you think it’s long term or short term? - Have you experienced them changing their mind about this kind of investment in the past? + Leah says ask the hiring manager / person interviewing you what their next initiatives are and their personal goals. It can give you a little bit of a baseline for your opportunity.
17:48 – Document Accomplishments* In a time of many layoffs across various industries, people find themselves on the market looking for jobs and are not experts in looking for new jobs. People don’t want to think about having to change jobs and do not really have a process. * We’ve advocated on the show that perhaps people should take 2 interviews per year even if you aren’t thinking about changing your job. * John suspects maybe Leah has run into people who have not thought about changing and as a result might be coming from more of a cold start position. What are the types of things people should "keep warm" so that in the event they find themselves recruited / sourced or maybe in a reduction of force (RIF) scenario? + Leah advises us to keep notation of our accomplishments. When we work on so many projects we forget the great things we were a part of over time. + Leah is frequently speaking to people who do not have a resume handy because she has sought them out. She has seen a blurb of who they are on LinkedIn (which never on its own tells the whole story). - When Leah is speaking with people she is trying to learn more about them and will often times ask for a resume to share with her team internally. Many times people do not have one handy, which is fair. In the event you don’t it is great to have the documentation of your work to refer to for making the edits to your resume. - You want to have the numbers available for a conversation if and when needed (which comes from documenting the work). John says it is handy to have even when not looking for a new job because you may want a raise or to look for an internal role at your company that opens up. People don’t get huge raises without justification. You need a record of accomplishments. - Leadership just is not going to know all of the great things you’re doing. How many things will they be tracking or in charge of, for example? - Keeping a record of your achievements allows you to be accountable and responsible for what you have achieved. You can ask yourself if you’ve done enough, if you have been accountable enough, and whether you need to brush up in a few areas. - "Am I bringing all I can to the table? Am I making sure that I’m going to have longevity here if I’d like to have it?" – Leah White on the accountability of tracking your accomplishments + We may not remember what we’ve done but at the same time have an unreasonable expectation that our manager or skip-level who has 10 to 100 more people under them than we do should remember. That doesn’t make any sense but may also speak to people not quite understanding how managerial jobs work.
22:16 – Reasons for a Job Change and a Niche Market* In Leah’s experience, the motivations for people to make a job change really varies. + Some people are a little bit bored or lacking challenge in what they do. They may have been doing the same thing for a long time and really thought they would have received a promotion by now (and no longer feel as excited or as valued in that role). + There are some who feel they should have already moved forward in their career and are now wondering if they will ever get the opportunity to do so. + Leah has seen people who no longer enjoy the people they work with perhaps due to changes in personnel, corporate restructuring, or maybe even an acquisition. Sometimes the comfort is no longer there. + In general folks may be a little burned out and are looking for a change. + One of the more recent things Leah has seen has been compatibility with a person’s lifestyle. Companies have moved from remote work to back in office in some cases. And it could be a person’s situation has changed to where they cannot work with that change in place (i.e. the travel requirements). + There are many reasons people move around today, but Leah cautions us to be careful of that movement. Recruiters are very keen on stability. It is really a red flag if somoene is moving to a different organization every year or every 2 years. The investment a company makes in you will be perceived to last only a short time. + Make sure the brand you are building shows who you are. You want to make sure that you look good, that you look professional, and that you are really going to be somewhere and do your best. This will be a huge reflection of who you are to a recruiter. + Nick says even if you bow out of a hiring process or have to turn something down you still want that positive brand reflection. + Leah says the community is small. It’s not what it used to be where you turn in a page of referrals. Referrals are via word of mouth these days. Somoene knows somoene. + "You need to know that you are your brand, and your brand needs to stay positive." – Leah White * On the flip side, it’s really hard to move away from happy. + We often say not to break happy or move away from happy. + If Leah reaches out to someone and that person loves the culture where they work, they love the people they work with, they feel valued, and ty feel they are really on a trajectory upward it’s hard to get somoene to walk away and move to a new place (potentially risking happy by moving). + The above is probably the number one reason Leah is seeing for people not taking a new opportunity. * John keeps hearing the job market is incredible and unemployment is super low. People still need to compete for jobs, but at the same time certain organizations are cutting huge amounts of people. There is a perception that one might be competing with many people for those opportunities. Is it a job seeker’s market or an employer’s market or not that simple? + Leah says what complicates things are the particular roles. She thinks it depends on what type of professional you are. + If you are a niche professional with a very in-demand and technical skillset, you have options and will probably always have those options. + If your skillset is a bit more general or there are many folks who can offer the same skillset you have, you are going to be competing with more people. That is the way it is going to be. + At Veeam just like at many other organizations, they are still hiring but only in certain areas. And it isn’t necessarily in the areas where skillsets are more general. + You as a candidate want to ensure your skillset is very valuable. If there are extra projects or classes you can participate in to grow your skillset at your organization, you need to do that to give yourself a bit more job stability and be part of that niche market. + There are jobs out there, but the job marketplace is much more dicey than it was a year or two ago. + "Got it…so there’s not one job market. It’s a series of micro markets." – John White + There is a lesson here. As we are employed, we should work to grow our specialized skillsets that are in demand and can keep us employed (or at least in high demand if we suddenly need to change). + For example, John has a friend whose spouse went to medical school across the country. So one needs to find a job as part of this, but if the person has highly in demand skills maybe that’s not such a big deal. + Leah says the highly in-demand skills often times does not have the same location restrictions or parameters. The more niche someone is the more open employers are to employ that person. + Leah says we should be very aware of what we bring to the table and cannot ever get comfortable to the point where you stop raising your hand and stop learning. You have to be willing to grow.
30:05 – Trust in Recruiters* Nick thinks there is a certain connotation and a wondering of how much we should / can trust recruiters. + Leah says this is fair. When we speak with people on the other end of a phone call we don’t know what their intentions are or what their end goal is. It’s very fair to be hesitant on what you share. + If there are any non-negotiables for you, it is in your best interest to share those in advance to avoid wasting anyone’s time. - For example, if you know that 50% travel is not going to work for you, don’t be afraid to come out of the gate and ask about what the travel situation is going to look like. - If you’ve recently received a compensation increase, be comfortable bringing this up. You don’t need to be going through multiple rounds of a hiring process in hopes that everything is going to align with what you’re wanting. - It’s fair for you to ask your questions and get the information you need early, in advance. - It’s ok to be confident in stating what your needs are (the non-negotiables). You don’t have to provide a bunch of reason why they are your needs. - "If you are confident in what you have to offer and if you’re the best candidate for that role, be confident in asking those questions and making those non-negotiables known up front. + Nick says this can help the recruiter qualify you in or out of a role. For example, if the compensation you were looking to get was never something the company would offer for a specific role, it’s probably better not to continue talking about that role. + Leah says there is also the job leveling piece to consider. Career titles are different from one organization to another. - If you’re a consultant at a specific company, that same role at another company may mean a different job level and a different pay level. - A recruiter may have a different idea of who you are, what you do, and what you earn. Telling the recruiter what you are looking for can help you get on the same page from the beginning so expectations are where they need to be on both ends. + John says during his experience at Google most people did not understand that the leveling conversation begins the first time a candidate speaks with a recruiter. - People didn’t realize that judgement was being unofficially made and being solidified as conversations during the hiring process continued. - As you went further in the process the more people are locked into judgements made to that point. - John says maybe we should have a candid conversation with a recruiter to share what our job level has been and some of the projects we have worked on both in scope and complexity as well as dollar impact. Maybe that means you’re expecting a certain job level and compensation, and you can ask if you’re on the same page with the recruiter. - Leah tells us the recruiter may have done a little research on who you are (through LinkedIn or a referral) and have an idea of your level based on a role they are looking to fill. During a conversation with you they can come to understand you are actually more senior than the role they have to offer and can keep you in mind for a more senior role when one opens. - Unless you really share all the details about what you’ve done and what you’re looking for, you may close the door on opportunities you may have been brought in the future because the recruiter does not have a clear understanding of who you are. - The level at which you come into an organization is key because it is also a basis for your performance growth. If you said all the right things and come in at a level that’s too high, you might not get that performance bump you had been expecting. Leah recommends we be fair to ourselves and come in at the right level so we can achieve the growth we want. - "You don’t want to make the targets. You want to make and surpass the targets. So it’s important that everyone has a clear picture of the level." – Leah White, on coming into an organization at the right level. - This is easier in some roles because of tests during the hiring process, but in other roles it is not as easily determined. It is important to have that conversation about what you’ve done and what you’re looking to do to ensure everyone is on the same page about the level.
37:08 – Layoffs and Parting Thoughts* With layoffs in the tech industry top of mind right now, how should someone approach this with recruiters if they have been affected?
+ There is no shame in telling someone you were let go according to Leah (and she shared a story about it earlier).
+ You want to be very transparent about any gaps on your employment record. If you were let go a couple of months ago, make that known. Recruiters are usually trying to determine what is going on, why you left your previous employer, and what you’re up to now.
+ Sharing that you were let go but also what you did to be successful in your role before being let go is very helpful to a recruiter.
+ Leah says recruiters are likely looking at COVID with a grain of salt in many ways because things were a little weird during that time.
+ If you worked a contract position, for example, but the length of the contract where it is visible to highlight shorter stints in specific roles. The recruiter can then believe (due to your transparency) that you are going to be an invested professional in the future if selected.
+ John says if you looked at someone’s resume during the 2008 / 2009 time period and saw some gaps it would be easy to understand because of the housing market collapse and other economic problems.
+ Leah often finds herself giving similar advice to mothers who have gaps because they had a child and have been out of industry.
+ "It can’t be something we feel like we need to hide. That’s your life. That happened in your life. That was your decision, and now you’re back in the industry looking for a new role." – Leah White speaking to gaps in resumes
+ We can share thst we have a resume gap because we were taking care of a sick parent, for example. This lets a recruiter know this was a personal decision and thst you were not let go due to poor performance and couldn’t find a job, etc. In just seeing a gap like that on a resume, a recruiter has no idea why you were not working.
+ Remember the recruiter can be your advocate. They are having conversations with the hiring manager and the team about candidates.
+ "We’re the ones that met you and that have a feel for you being great for a specific team." – Leah White on recruiters as advocates
+ The recruiter is passing your resume along to people who have not had a conversation with you, and the recruiter can easily speak to gaps in your resume and the reasons for those gaps (assuming you have shared it with a recruiter).
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We discussed the reasons for people changing jobs such as
- You’re in position and are not being challenged
- There’s been a lack of promotion
- You don’t enjoy the lifestyle any longer
- Or you don’t enjoy the people you work with any longer
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Even if you’re happy in your role, you need to look at your skillset on a consistent basis to see if you’re developing the specialized, in-demand skills which will keep you employed and in demand if you’re suddenly back on the market (i.e. job loss).
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Leah tells us this lets you think about whether you should be raising your hand more.
- It puts the onus on each of us. Am I not receiving a promotion because I haven’t been raising my hand and trying to work outside of what my current role is? The initiative really brings you into consideration when there opportunities arise internally at your current employer.
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One of the reasons people decide to stay at an organization is because they enjoy their co-workers. Make sure you’re a part of that. Make sure you’re one of those people that helps people stay at an organization. This helps you and it helps the rest of your organization.
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If you can be that mentor or that teammate, that person who helps people smile more, the person who coordinates that virtual party or congratulatory message / gift to someone…then you’re that great person who helps those other people you so enjoy working with stay.
- Doing this helps you and the people around you.
- We own the culture on our teams. We cannot own the culture organization wide, but we do own it for our teams.
- "We model the culture that we’re looking for, right?" – John White
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Feel free to reach out to Leah on LinkedIn. She is connected to a pretty diverse set of people across industries and backgrounds and is always happy to answer a question or point you to someone in her network who has more answers.
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Grow your network, and stay engaged with people. If you come across something you feel would be helpful to somoene else, share it with that person whether career related or personal.
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Mentioned in the outro:
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We should have asked to get more detail on the unique perspective of a recruiter doing job seeking.
- We need to see leadership model culture. If we don’t see leaders exhibit company values, that could be a red flag.
- Another question we should have asked was about advisability of following a leader to a new company, especially more than once. If you’re out there and have done this we would love to hear from you!
- Nick is reminded of Evan Oldford’s advice about finding that great manager from Episode 173. See also Episode 172 featuring Evan and a story about his move to a different company (recruited by his former manager).
- Nick doesn’t remember talking to other guests in regard to sniff testing a role that is new to an organization as a way to determine if you should take it. The one exception may be Tom Delicati’s story back in Episode 13 of essentially creating his own position at a company.
- John mentions the advice on documenting your work is wise to use for a promotion if you stay at a company but also if you choose to leave (helps with building the resume for that next role). Nick recommends keeping this info somewhere not controlled by corporate access policies as a backup (so you have it in the event you are laid off and access terminated).
- What if we tried to assume positive intent when working with recruiters unless proven otherwise? Recruiters can be our advocate.
- Maybe recruiters are doing a personnel sizing exercise in much the same way we would size / plan an enterprise technology roll out (licenses, new hardware, subscription costs, etc.). You cannot plan and budget effectively if you don’t have a feel for the overall size of a project like this, and it is much the same with candidates and recruiters (i.e. can we afford this candidate, etc.).
- We are going to have to collect our questions (and yours) for when we have Leah back on the show sometime.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 212 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of a discussion with Leah White, detailing her early career and the transition from engineering student to recruiter, getting laid off and finding work at a culinary institute, the value of internship programs, and how through it all she was constantly redefining success.
Original Recording Date: 01-24-2023
Topics – Meet Leah White, The Discipline of Sourcing, Defining Life Success, The Identity Crisis and a Mindset Shift, Becoming Part of the Institute, Internships, Seeking Flexibility3:27 – Meet Leah White* Leah White is a sourcing recruiter for Veeam and as of this recording has been with the company a little over a year. She works on roles across the US and Canada identified as needing additional recruitment support. + Leah lives right outside of Houston, Texas and works remotely. She is married with 3 children (a 15-year-old, a 10-year-old, and a 5-year-old). + And for the record, John and Leah are not related.
4:28 – The Discipline of Sourcing* Leah says people understand the term recruiter in our industry much more so than recruiter. A sourcer is someone who is going to seek out passive talent. * As a recruiter you’re generally working with candidates who have applied for a job at a company. But a sourcer is going to seek out prospects that could fit a specific role you need to fill. + This may involve attending events, networking, spending time on LinkedIn, asking for referrals…but you’re really sourcing talent for a role that needs to be filled. * It depends on the role as to whether sourcing is needed. If there is a role that is going to be a role hired in mass volume that people generally are going to express interest in on a continuous basis, usually sourcing would not be needed for this. If you’re looking for a niche role, a higher level role, or if an open role isn’t attracting the quality of candidates you would like to see…you might need additional recruitment / sourcing. + In Leah’s situation, she is often times sourcing for diversity. Maybe there hasn’t been enough gender diversity come in for a role in the candidate pool. + "It’s really you’re seeking a specific need. That’s when you’re going to pull in sourcing for additional help." – Leah White + Nick had really only heard the term sourcing in the context of needing someone on the legal team to help with a specific request. * Sourcers are not used across every organization because it’s an additional expense. Likely you would see sourcing on teams within larger organizations that have the budget for it or a specific need for it. Leah says you aren’t necessarily going to see sourcing at every organization across the industry.
7:14 – Defining Life Success* Leah had a pre-determined set of honorable ventures to target when she was in school like engineering, medicine, or law. * Leah began at the University of Oklahoma and was recruited there through a minority STEM recruitment program. Her focus was chemical engineering with a minor in pre-med "just in case." * She even did an internship at Exxon. * Leah had a friend (Miranda) who worked for the athletic housing department at the university. Miranda got Leah a job as a desk assistant, and she later would transfer to be a resident advisor. + The job was a lot of student management – checking to see if people were safe, adhering to the curfew, and in many ways almost acting as a bodyguard. + Leah really became more of an advisor to female underclassmen who were student athletes. This was really her first time working with students. * Then life happened. Leah met her husband at the university. He played basketball, and when he graduated, he wanted to play overseas. + Leah and her husband moved to France and spent some time in Germany. + This wasn’t really something Leah had on her list of life plans. + While overseas Leah tried to figure out what she could do with her education. She found engineering wasn’t really an option there, but she was able to obtain a psychology minor during this time. * After the time overseas, Leah and her husband relocated to Louisiana (his former home). + She decided to enroll at LSU (Louisiana State University). It was too tough to transfer credits from previous education there and would have taken much more time, so Leah went back to her list and chose to study in the medicine field (a kinesiology degree). She thought maybe sports medicine made sense. + Leah really enjoyed her work in this discipline. Her husband had started coaching a club team, and Leah found herself once again working with students. + Leah acted more as a mentor to younger students. She handled the business end of things while her husband did the coaching. * Life happened again. Leah had her first child, and at this point her life plan no longer made sense. She would not be able to do years in a medical program and take care of children. + Leah’s husband had to travel for his job, and she felt one parent needed to be home with the children. + Leah had to redefine what success would look like for her and her family in such a way that she would not miss out on non-negotiables like time with the kids (being at their school programs, games, etc.). + Leah started to look at opportunities that she could pursue even if her family relocated. + After researching, Leah got her first exposure to real recruitment at the University of Phoenix. + She initially enrolled in an MBA program at the University of Phoenix. But she really enjoyed recruitment and was recruiting students, attending career fairs, and working on curriculum development. The focus was on adult students who were looking for a new career (i.e. their first career did not work out). + Leah could identify with the students because she too had some twists and turns that changed what she had planned to do originally. + Leah was advising students on career and encouraged them to think about the careers that would fit within their desired lifestyle. She was truly an advocate for the students and felt very fulfilled seeing the students she had helped eventually graduate. * Nick likes the way Leah continually defined success professionally but also personally, thinking of it more as life success. And she kept iterating on that.
13:32 – The Identity Crisis and a Mindset Shift* Did Leah get training when entering recruitment, and did her previous experience actually make her qualified to do it? * Certainly Leah received some training when she went into recruitment, but what made her successful was more about earning trust than getting someone to believe in a product or service. + When someone enrolled, Leah genuinely believed they did so because of their trust in her and because of the research she had done with that person. She was an advocate for that person. + In the case of some students it was not the best fit or the right time for them. + Leah feels like she still served in an advisory capacity and leveraged her previous experience as a resident advisor to help. * John says when he abandoned his first college major it was pretty traumatic. It should not have been in retrospect, but he sees it now through the wisdom of distance. Leah had multiple changes to navigate in her studies yet still was able to define success on a personal level. + Leah says it really wasn’t an easy thing. She had to rely on her faith. To that point she was someone who had been successful at everything she had done as a student. + She was picked as most likely to succeed and had a bunch of plans that just didn’t work out. + Leah was the only freshman from University of Oklahoma to land an internship at Exxon and felt she was really achieving some great things. + Moving from one path to another for Leah was about evaluating what was more important. Her husband was pursuing a career in playing professional basketball that really had a shelf life and couldn’t really ask him to wait on her. + "But I knew there were other things that I could be successful at, and that was a compromise we had to make as a family." – Leah White + Leah had a little bit of an identity crisis as many people do in these types of situations. But it was a clear decision, especially when they had children because the one thing she was not going to sacrifice was time with them. - It wasn’t going to be a situation where her husband was playing overseas / in another state and someone would have to come take care of the children. She didn’t want to tell her kids she wouldn’t be there for a recital or to help with homework. It was a clear decision. + "I had to just really have a different mindset in what success would look like for my family because it would no longer be just my personal success." – Leah White * Did Leah have some advance warning of the likelihood of travel for her husband’s career as they approached getting married? + Leah’s husband played basketball for the University of Oklahoma and pretty much knew he would continue pursuing it as a career. + Even now Leah’s husband coaches at the D1 level for the University of Houston and since the early days has been something requiring a lot of travel. + Leah tells us we need to not just look at how we identify with things as an individual. Telling yourself you have not achieved what you wanted to achieve can even create problems with your family. - Having this perspective as early as possible really sets you up for long term success. - When you plan your career at a young age, career advisors don’t often talk to you about your relationships. - "When you are choosing your career pathway you are choosing one that is going to compliment your lifestyle…not just what’s a part of that sequence of courses you’re going to complete." – Leah White + John says when he was in school he didn’t need to / did not think about the ramifications of being in a relationship with an upper classman (who graduates and may not necessarily stick close to campus afterward). This is a complication. * Nick thinks the mindset Leah had is what made her so successful in recruitment of students. It seems like she has internalized this process so much that it was imparted to the students she worked with as well. * Leah believes it is important to be as transparent as possible. These are huge decisions (taking a new job, investing in a career, etc.). + It’s important to have the real conversations about additional consideration points (i.e. obstacles to doing something, whether it will be long or short term, etc.). It’s only fair to visit these topics. * Even in her job today, Leah encourages people to ask as many questions as possible during the hiring process. + Ask to speak tot someone who would be working on your team to get a real perspective. + You should ask enough so that when you walk into a new role there are no regrets and no mismatches in what you expect it to be and what it actually is (as close to what you expect as possible at least). + Nick suggests we likely do not ask enough questions in job interviews to try and figure out what the land mines might be.
22:06 – Becoming Part of the Institute* John wonders if the experience of self-evaluation and defining success carried over into roles beyond the job at University of Phoenix. + Leah really enjoyed her job there and joked that the only thing truly missing was a meal plan. Her husband would often times talk about the good food he was having. + A family friend really became a mentor of Leah’s. She really taught Leah the basics of external recruiting principles. + Leah got an MBA and a HR graduate certificate from University of Phoenix, but there were facets of recruitment she had not yet explored. + Leah was able to do some contract work with this family friend (some HR stuff), and she also had some small stints with various agencies for some supplemental income. - As part of this experience, Leah was exposed to a variety of tools, strategies, goals, and platforms. This was very helpful to her. It was not anything to provide longevity, but it was some good exposure. + At one point the University of Phoenix decided to close the campus where Leah worked, wanting to close their brick and mortar locations and focus on the bread and butter of online courses. + Despite the unfortunate closing of the office where Leah had been working, she had leadership who were looking out for those who were impacted by this decision. - There are leaders who still text Leah happy birthday to this day. - One specific leader referred Leah to a personal friend at the Louisiana Culinary Institute who was looking for support in admissions. * In a way the opportunity at the Louisiana Culinary Institute was that meal plan Leah had been talking about. She would get to taste things that students made and eat wonderful food. + The opportunity expanded Leah’s knowledge quite a bit. It was a private institution where everyone would wear many hats. Leah served as the admissions director, internship director, and career development coordinator at different points during her time at the institute. + Leah gained experience in sourcing partnerships and nurturing those she brought to the school (and even spearheaded a partnership with Disney). In addition to this, Leah partnered with different employers (like restaurants) and brought in different clients. She taught psychology classes (using her minor from school), small business development, and even HR courses. - The institute had added a business track to prepare students for opening their own restaurant, for example. + Leah was able to use the thing she had learned from other hats she had worn at different places in her past and really enjoyed the experiences. + She was on that other end of recruitment working with adult students who were often career changers, some had families, and most wanted to become chefs / business owners / be somewhere in the culinary field, etc. + Leah does not believe she would have been able to do all these things if she had been part of a larger organization. + Leah is thankful for the people who believed in her abilities to make a difference there. She was given the freedom to go and try things (not all of which worked) that expanded her skillset. + Leah didn’t specifically ask for the freedom and latitude she was given at the culinary institute during the interview process. Remember Leah had been laid off from the University of Phoenix previous to this role, and she was open to just about anything. + Many of the opportunities given to Leah at this employer were provided after some gaps / specific needs were identified and she raised her hand to give it a try. Other times certain things were asked of her. - As Leah demonstrated success in one area her scope would broaden, allowing her to shift from one area to another. - She might then be part of the hiring process to replace the area in which she was working and move on to a different area. - "It really was a progression over time where I moved from one department to another where I grew it and then moved to a different path in the organization." – Leah White - Nick says this was a chance to really learn the business, its processes, and how they connect. * As a recruiter now, could Leah have identified someone who would have been well suited to have the same success she did at the culinary institute (i.e. someone who fit a job description but that the company was looking to grow into certain areas)? + Leah says this happens often with lower level roles (i.e. junior level). You are often gauging potential. + "The point is that you’re wanting to invest in someone you’re hiring, so do I see that you have the potential for growth?" – Leah White + Much of this is scouted during a conversation and maybe asking questions like - Where do you see yourself in 5 years? - What is your ideal role? - What are your interests? + You’re trying to gauge whether this is someone who is really going to work on their personal growth within the organization. + When Leah speaks with people she is looking for adaptability, passion, purpose, and a willingness to grow skillsets.
29:49 – Internships* There are multiple reasons companies see value in internships. * If you are taking an emerging professional and putting them in an internship opportunity, you are able to gauge whether that person is going to be a quality future hire. * There is normally a predetermined time frame of 3-6 months with the goal in many situations to at the end being to take that person on full time. But if you have not seen what you were hoping to get out of the time with that person (as an employer), you can end the relationship. * This works both ways. The person taking part in an internship may decide the experience was not what they expected it to be or that the company is not a place where they would one day want to work. * The internship is like dating and then deciding if you really want to marry the person. During the internship you really get a feel for whether you want to move forward. * The internships at Louisiana Culinary Institute were developed with the idea of growing a partnership. + It was also to help students get a feel for how to seek a job. Despite being a great student, the person may have no idea how to go about doing that (to move on past school). + An established internship program really provides guidance for students in this way and putting them in a better position to land a full time job. + You also have to consider career changers. If you are looking at someone’s resume and all experience is in a different area than the job for which they are applying really wants. If that person had spent time in an internship they are able to show proof of experience with possible backing recommendation letters. + Nick mentions the connotation of internship is usually associated with someone new to the workforce, and he hadn’t thought about it from the standpoint of the career changer. Maybe in some cases you might refer to it as an apprenticeship? * John says it is much more common in the culinary world to do an internship, and it doesn’t make sense to graduate with a culinary degree with no professional kitchen experience. But this is likely true for almost any job and degree. + Leah says this is more prevalent in some industries than others. She had a great time during her engineering internship, for example. Likely one would not have engineering experience without participating in some kind of internship. + Some places have co-op agreements where you would take a semester of school and then a semester working. One could have 2 years of experience working at an organization by the end of this and would be coming in at a higher job level and higher pay. But it’s also about whether you are ok with lengthening the time period you are in school. + John says the last time he thought about this was when he was a senior in high school. He didn’t think about how joining a company with the degree and some experience there compared to a degree and no experience might set someone up to be ahead of the game in total earnings down the road. + Leah says in the IT world we often see this with boot camps. Someone who wants to change careers may invest in a 6 month boot camp, for example. The investment someone made in a coding boot camp is looked upon quite differently (in a positive light) than someone who took a class or two on the side or was self-taught. There are often partnerships with boot camps for recruitment. + Nick says it would make sense that recruiters who need to fill job roles would want to partner with programs bringing people into an industry in this way (i.e. building talent pipelines). + Leah says it speaks volumes when a company has someone came from a boot camp succeed within that company. Some companies have a very strong brand, but having someone be successful (in Leah’s mind) is the picture perfect role model of what works for your organization. + And the more people who end up successful coming out of the program, the more confidence is placed in the program itself. * John asks if there were programs to be a YouTube food influencer during Leah’s time at the culinary institute. + Nope – they did not have any programs like that at the time. + Students did (as part of the curriculum) practice being recordedcooking. They might be featured at an event or news segment. + Being recorded was something many students avoided. They loved being in the kitchen as a solo act, but being recorded meant they had to focus on how they looked, whether they were following sanitary guidelines, etc. This kind of thing was very important for many of the pathways people wanted to go down. + We’ve found in the tech industry the more you can present your work in public (even if pre-recorded), it raises your profile and can act as proof of work.
38:13 – Seeking Flexibility* After the Louisiana Culinary Institute, Leah transitioned to Accenture. * This was another life pivot. Leah’s husband had been coaching in Louisiana and got his dream opportunity at the time to coach at University of Houston for his former coach. This required relocation to Houston.
+ The same family friend mentioned before (a mentor) stepped in to help, suggesting Leah look at Accenture for remote recruitment.
+ This sounded perfect for Leah since her family had a tendency to relocate fairly frequently. Something she could take with her would work way better.
+ After speaking with the Accenture recruiting team there were two opportunities available – general recruiting and sourcing.
+ Leah loves sourcing because you’re a little bit of a matchmaker, and it’s a bit like a treasure hunt. You’re seeking amazing candidates, bringing opportunities to them, and the person has the choice to pursue it or not.
+ Leah felt like in a sourcing role you are going out and helping others, and that is what she really liked about it.
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Leah was at Accenture for about 4 years and was able to work on a number of projects such as diversity projects and was able to really use a lot of the technical foundation learned at The University of Phoenix.
- She had worked on IT program recruitment previously and was now at Accenture sourcing IT professionals, which became a sweet spot for her.
- Leah loves IT folks and feels they are straight to the point and transparent about what they are looking for in a job. She really enjoyed this about technical sourcing.
- Leah says Accenture has a great culture. It’s a massive organization with many facets where there was never a dull day. She might be sourcing a life sciences role, a SAP professional, and a Workday professional on consecutive days (for example).
- This was a fun opportunity in which Leah was able to meet so many people and grow in her work.
- The only piece missing for Leah when she was there was that she was still a contractor, which was the way it worked for that portion of the HR division.
- Leah had done a great job while there and received good feedback and reviews while there, but the structure was really all contractors and did not change.
- Leah was comfortable there because of the people she worked with.
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Does a broad range of roles to source actually make it more difficult on the sourcer?
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It depends on personal preference. Leah had co-workers who would specialize in a single area, and it was where they preferred to remain (i.e. becoming a subject matter expert in a specific area or particular platform).
- Leah raised her hand to be a little bit of a floater because she enjoyed being able to try something new. It’s also a little job stability because Leah was up for going into these different areas and understanding those parts of the business. Accenture is a huge organization.
- If someone like Leah is learning roles on the life sciences side, on the business side, and then on the tech side…she is getting a better understanding of how the organization works and is able to better direct candidates.
- It’s very common to reach out to a candidate about a specific role and then once you get to know the person, you may come to the realization that there may be better for the candidate within your organization. And you keep looking and perhaps bring another opportunity to that candidate.
- If you’re open to learning more about your organization (as Leah did), you are able to be a greater asset to your organization and provide more value in what you do.
- Nick says this speaks to the generalist / specialist divide for technologists and the struggles in moving back and forth toward each end of the spectrum. We have seen many organizations that do not value hyperspecialists and prefer more generalists while other companies may prefer more specialists.
- John suggests seeking flexibility seems to be a pattern for Leah since he has had to flex in the past and not depend on any one thing.
- Early on in her career Leah was more structured and later found it did not really work for her situation.
- Leah believes she has fully embraced the flexibility, and this also keeps things interesting. She loves to participate in different projects, being able to raise her hand and get plugged in to help in various areas.
- This helps Leah learn more about the organization, the industry, and trends. She believes we have to continue to grow instead of saying "this is what I am gong to do" and "this is what I am always going to do."
- As we have seen from the last few years it’s very important to be flexible and adapt in order to be successful.
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Mentioned in the outro
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Success for Leah was a byproduct of defining the non-negotiables like family time, etc.
- John has been through an identity crisis as well after going to school to become an electrical engineer and then figured out he needed to do something else (which had to be figured out).
- Sometimes we assume as men that our spouse / partner is going to relocate and follow us if needed for work. That is not always the case. Listen to John share the story about a friend of his who needed to relocate to the opposite coast of the US support his wife.
- Continuing to hone and sharpen your skills can make you more marketable if you were to experience a layoff.
- We should have asked if it would be a good tactic to reach out to sourcing personnel at companies if one was looking for jobs!
- Remember that focus on flexibility. Perhaps if you’re listening that is something you would like to highlight in a job search.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 211 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of a discussion with Shailvi Wakhlu, talking through her move to 100% people management, how she’s built strategy, thoughts on job leveling, an explanation of what data science is, and resources that can help with a career move into data science.
Original Recording Date: 01-17-2023
Shailvi Wakhlu (she/her) is based in San Francisco and was most recently a senior director and head of data at a sports tech company. During the time Shailvi was there, she ran a department of 27 product analysts and machine engineers. Catch part one of our discussion with Shailvi in Episode 210.
Topics – Targeting the C-Suite, Manager of Various Teams, Thoughts on Strategy, The Manager Who Built Career Paths, Job Levels and Hiring, Data Science and Related Fields4:37 – Targeting the C-Suite* Shailvi didn’t get her first fully management role with no individual contributor responsibilities until about 3 years ago. This was a very conscious decision. + Prior to this role, 50% of Shailvi’s time was focused on coding or delivering something as an individual contributor. Her title may have said technical lead or manager, but the 50% split was the reality of her true responsibilities. + Shailvi didn’t want to move fully into management and stop growing her technical skills. For the longest time she would turn away from any role that was 100% management…until a couple of years ago. + Nick says those who have led very technical careers seem to have a hesitancy when they move up into leadership (i.e. loss aversion, loss of identity, etc.). + Shailvi says she can identify with these feelings and the desire for staying in your comfort zone. + When Shailvi works on code, she can see the impact she is having and can point to more tangible outputs from what she is doing. + People leadership is very different. Sometimes it’s all the bad things that have not happened that are a measure of your success. And it’s not for everyone. * One of Shailvi’s biggest wins over the last 2 years is that out of 27 people only one person left the team. This all happened during what was called the great resignation. + Nick says talent retention is important and has heard it costs companies 2.5x someone’s salary to turn them over (i.e. backfill the role). + Shailvi says you try to do a lot of things that are right. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. + Management life is so different than life as a coder (where Shailvi started). - "You do X,Y,Z. You get A,B,C. And there you go. Checkbox. You’ve met your goals." – Shailvi Wakhlu, speaking to life as a coder + Shailvi loves being at the strategic helm of a company and making key decisions. She enjoys businesses, shaping businesses, and shaping businesses that will do well. + "Look at the jobs that you want, and reverse engineer what needs to happen for you to get there." – Shailvi Wakhlu * Shailvi wanted a C-suite job. That’s what she still wants and is working toward. + Shailvi realized that for a C-suite job you need to have a very good grasp on the people aspect of it such as how to get the best work out of people, how to hire great people, how to grow them, how to motivate them, and how to retain them. + There is a big people leadership aspect to most C-suite jobs, and Shailvi realized she needed to go into the roles that would push her into situations which would really help her progress to grow that skillset. + Shailvi knows she was a good individual contributor, but could she be a good manager? She did not know for sure yet. * Nick mentions that communication aspect that was so important for software engineers comes into play here again for the manager who needs to communicate upward (their management) and downward (to the people under them). The way you communicate and the things you talk about changes as you hold roles at different levels within an organization. You have to change and adjust your communication to fit that level, which takes time. + Shailvi says getting the right words and the right communication is a lifelong journey. Shailvi still says things that she will think about later and wonder why she framed it in a certain way. + "It’s a journey in self-improvement to keep finding the right things to say at the right time and still sound authentic…and still make it clear that you care about the individual situation and that you’re not reading off a play book." – Shailvi Wakhlu
10:19 – Manager of Various Teams* Is it more comforting to manage a team where you have experience working as an individual contributor in that area compared to a team where you have not? + When Shailvi was at Salesforce, she started by doing the work and then later had someone report up to her. She knew how to do the work and was hiring someone who could do the same / similar things. + By contrast, when she entered Komodo, Shailvi inherited a team that already existed. Some of the things people on this team did Shailvi did not know how to do (i.e. did not have some of the skills, was not familiar with some of the tools being used, etc.). + Shailvi feels she was a successful manager at Komodo despite these things because she understood the business relevance and the strategic nature of what that team did. + "I knew how to position the team well for their own success and for the success of the company." – Shailvi Wakhlu on her role at Komodo * There’s no doubt Shailvi has walked into situations with roles where she felt impostor syndrome at first, wondering if she could really handle it. But, after several months she would come to the realization that yes, she was the right person for the role and that others agreed with that. Shailvi is grateful for this. * Shailvi doesn’t think a manager needs to know exactly what everyone does for them to be successful at the management piece. * How can a manager who takes over a team and lacks individual contributor experience in that area set the team at ease? + Shailvi likes to understand people’s individual career values and makes it a point to ask those she works with what they care about. In most cases, that is the blueprint around which you want to optimize for the success of your report. + Shailvi has now been a department lead twice, and in both cases, she was generally skewed toward managing senior talent who do not necessarily need help with their technical skills. That’s not why they need a manager. They need a manager who understands the concerns they face, who listens, and really cares about solving a problem for the employee. + It’s about building rapport. It’s about the employee communicating where they need help and the manager finding proactive ways to unblock them (due to the access you have to senior company leadership). + Knowing employee career values is a way to keep honing in on the specific things that are important to people at that individual level. + Shailvi mentions if she gets asked to help someone with technical skills (which usually happens if the person is earlier in their career), she will set that person up with a specific mentor who can help the person build those skills. + Nick says this a great way to frame up that the manager does not need to be the most technical person on the team.
14:08 – Thoughts on Strategy* Staying on top of individual career value for your team isn’t a direct input into building strategy. It’s a separate path compared to staying in touch with upward management and ensuring your understanding of company focus (which can mean many things). + Company focus can mean what the CEO cares about, what the C-suite in general cares about, what the company advertises publicly, etc. There are many different pieces. + The more clarity you can get on where the business is headed and what it needs, it will be easier to map it out with how that fits into what your team can do and what different people on your team want to do. + It’s like a match making of what the company needs and what individuals need. + "There may not always be a 100% match, and you as the manager, as a leader, have to find the best way to sort of merge those two pieces." – Shailvi Wakhlu + If the company asks for something, a leader has to give feedback and let others know what is realistic. Shailvi was a data leader and could leverage the data to show that something would be a better path for them. + "Finding the pieces on both sides, actually connecting them, and making sense of them is what the job is." – Shailvi Wakhlu + Nick says in doing this you’re giving each employee a heightened sense of purpose and the impact they could make to the strategy. * Are there strategies at various levels within an organization (i.e. one for a manager’s team, one for the C-suite, one for the board of directors, etc.)? + Shailvi says companies have different ways in which they come up with that cohesive strategy. + She’s seen companies that are very top down with each department or group trying to match up to that top-level strategy and how they fit into it. + Shailvi has also seen companies that are very bottoms up, sharing the general direction in which the company is headed and then asking what departments and teams want to do in your to take steps in that direction / in service of that larger goal. + There are pros and cons to both options. In Shailvi’s opinion, going in one of those directions totally does not yield the best results. + It’s helpful for companies to be honest with themselves and share their strategy generation tactic (whether top down, bottom up, a mix of both, or if some guardrails are present) so people will know. People can do something good for the company but also do something good for themselves. + Nick says the word strategy is used often enough we might sit back and wonder what they really means.
17:37 – The Manager Who Built Career Paths* Shailvi says we have as an industry made some things very murky. Once you’re a senior enough individual contributor, there is almost this expectation of you going into management. + Shailvi heavily pushes back on this mindset, wishing as an industry we would do better. + "I don’t think going from individual contributor to management is a promotion. I think it’s a different job. You either choose to do that job, or you choose to not do it." – Shailvi Wakhlu + Taking on management as a career is really personal preference based on the things people care about. We should keep repeating the advice that going into management is not the only way to grow your career or progress in some way. + Shailvi has a lot of respect for companies who have mapped out individual contributor paths that rise all the way up to principal, senior staff, etc. By having these roles a company is saying there is a place for you at the highest levels of individual contribution which is both valuable and critical to the company’s success. * Shailvi has managed a lot of new managers in the tech industries (mentoring over 60 or so in a single year at one point), and they have grappled with the question of whether management is the right place for them. + Shailvi suggests talking with people in management at the company where you are considering being a manager to find out what it really means to be a manager there. Find out what these people actually do and how they spend their time. - The management role can vary a lot from company to company (i.e. comes in different shapes and flavors). + Shailvi says we should first decide if we want to do management at a specific company (usually the one where we work) before deciding whether to do it elsewhere. + Sometimes taking a management role at your current company is a way to get your foot in the door and gain experience, even if it’s not your preferred flavor of management. + Shailvi says it is really helpful when people dive into what it actually takes to be a manager with someone doing the job. + Even within the same company, depending on which team you might be leading, it might be full on people management for one team and for another it might be half people management and half technical lead. + Shailvi tells us that teams come in all kinds and sizes. People will leave. People will join. There are so many things that can keep changing. + "Ultimately the manager has to adapt to a lot of changing situations, and they are the ones who have to prioritize the success of their individual reports above their own individual success. And that can be really hard for a lot of people." – Shailvi Wakhlu + If someone is used to receiving kudos as an individual contributor, the measurements for a manager become more along the lines of what kind of kudos are coming for your team. + If people are getting promoted off your team to elsewhere that is not necessarily a bad thing. + Shailvi has trained new managers to not shy away from having someone report to them who are at the same level or higher than the manager’s current level. If someone you manage out-earns you it is not a bad thing (but it can be uncomfortable). * Shailvi has done work in her previous leadership roles to ensure career paths exist for those individual contributors wanting to move up to the highest levels without pursuing management. + Shailvi cites Komodo as one of the employers that while very good at focusing on the business and its growth, also really and genuinely cared about the people. + Shailvi had previously worked at Salesforce, which she cites as hands down having one of the best company cultures she has experienced. She went from there to Komodo (a much smaller company) and cites it as another blessing to experience. + Sometimes smaller companies like startups tend to have a misalignment with market reality. Shailvi has worked with many startups over the course of her experience. - Sometimes those who bet on a startup over time get an outsized idea of titles, levels, and sometimes even leadership opportunities. - Someone could be very good inside this company, but by the rest of the market’s standards they do not stand up to that same level. + Shailvi joined Komodo during series B funding, and the company was rapidly growing. They (Komodo) knew there was a need to add more structure to departments like engineering. In this case, Shailvi reported up to the head of engineering and took on owning this structuring framework as part of the engineering leadership team. - Shailvi had discussed this need with her boss as well as an HR business partner. She helped create what could be defended against market realities. + The ultimate deliverable of this effort was so people at the company could clearly see what growth and progression looked like, what reward and growth looked like, and what expectations at different levels were. It was intended that job level would accurately reflect where employees were in their progression (and to avoid a situation where "everyone here is a principal engineer," for example). + Nick didn’t consider that many startups might not have the job leveling in place but can certainly see that if they are small. + Shailvi would say (for smaller companies) once you have crossed 50-60 engineers you should have something in place like this (i.e. job leveling). + Shailvi says at larger companies teams can be quite small. In her time at Strava, they had a 2-person sub department that reported up to her for almost a year. There were only 2 people in a specific role, and in these cases you have to default to a larger framework the company uses for leveling (i.e. not as specific to the person’s skillset in this case). - Once you get past the point where 2-3 pizzas is not enough for everyone in a department, you should probably have something more structured and formalized. + Without the structure, you start having promotions based on feelings and not on facts. It will always make people who are not promoted feel resentful since they won’t really know what it takes. Having a good feeling associated with somoene is not the same as the person showing progression of skills and what they can achieve as a result. * With a manager’s knowledge of employee career values and the clear leveling and expectations defined, it allows an improved feedback mechanism from manager to employee that can be frequent (and not just in yearly / quarterly reviews), pointing out gaps to fill in the progression process over time. + If you (as a manager) care about people and you care about growth you have to give them useful feedback. If you’re unsure as a manager of what the company is willing to reward for progression, it is very hard for you to give effective feedback. + Companies can default to making decisions based on time / tenure in a role when things like what a senior analyst should be able to do, for example, are not clearly defined.
26:59 – Job Levels and Hiring* It also really matters that when you hire people that you are placing them at the correct level. + When you have experience in a large company and in a startup it can be really hard to align to the right level. + Someone could be considered a senior analyst at a company with a department having only 2 people in a specific function. If that person moves to a different company, their skills might not match what a senior analyst is expected to do. + Transparency in the things a company values for specific roles is really important here. * Usually a job description or job listing will show the job level (senior, staff, principal, etc.). Do companies usually share the differences in levels with job candidates? + Shailvi has done this in the past, authorizing recruiters to share the internal leveling standards and distinctions with candidates to present a mismatch in level expectation. + These are shared in a respectful way to show someone what the standards for the company are. This is about transparency. + Shailvi has had job changes where she’s had to lower her title, and in those cases she was ok with it. She does, however, understand that a title can be important to people and that they might not be ok with taking a lower title than expected (even after seeing the standards). + Shailvi tells us it is helpful to ask for the leveling standards when interviewing for a role. In her case, she asked for it on at least one occasion and was able to justify a more senior level as a result.
29:24 – Data Science and Related Fields* Shailvi has what some may consider a hot take on this. She wishes our industry would align the terminology across the board.
+ It is frustrating for candidates to apply for roles that are unclear about what the role really entails.
+ Shailvi worked in a company where everyone who came to be a data scientist expected it to be a machine learning role. In actuality machine learning was barely 5% of what the role required. It was more of an analytics role.
+ In this case Shailvi had to clarify terms and what they meant based on her research.
+ Originally, data science was the umbrella term, referring to the science of data. This encompassed everything from analytics to engineering to machine learning with many other things thrown in.
- Visualization is an expectation, pipeline infrastructure fits in there, etc.
- A "full stack" data scientist can do engineering, analytics, and machine learning.
+ A lot of courses started using data science and machine learning interchangeably, and then companies started doing it too. It’s become so pervasive it’s weird.
+ Shailvi likes to clarify what she means when she says data science.
+ The best thing to do is look at the job to see what parts are expected and what parts are not expected. Sometimes it can be more than one piece.
+ For example, sometimes you can be expected to do analytics and data engineering, analytics and machine learning, or even machine learning and data engineering. There can be a mix and match of these. Most roles require some level of visualization, but that can vary.
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People come under the umbrella of data science roles from a variety of backgrounds.
- Shailvi thinks development and engineering backgrounds are represented quite a bit in this field, but she has worked with data scientists who came from a psychology background, a customer service background, some type of people facing job, some type of research background, people with hard math skillsets, etc.
- There are a number of PhDs who have become data scientists (former physicists, for example).
- An aversion to math or basic coding will make getting into this field difficult and are likely disqualifiers for candidates.
- A desire to tell stories with data helps, especially for roles that emphasize machine learning and analytics.
- Shailvi has had product managers, marketers, and many others who come from different functions get into the data science field. This includes people who were once IT generalists.
- There are a number of free resources out there people can use and many who are willing to share their knowledge to help others progress.
- When people are clear about the subset of problems they want to solve and explore, Shailvi thinks there is a lot of opportunity.
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Recommended tools and courses to get into data science
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Bootcamps, as discussed earlier, are a way to quickly get a lay of the land, have some hands on experience with actual projects, learn the languages that are relevant, the techniques that are relevant and which to apply in a given situation, etc.
- There are a lot of resources in the open source community. Shailvi cites the #100DaysOfCode hash tag on Twitter as a resourced used by a number of data folks.
- There is also the Kaggle Community which hosts projects and competitions as well as courses.
- Data.gov is a huge resource anyone can use to practice with real data sources. This would allow formulating some problems on your own and seeing if you can get to an answer that makes sense.
- Nick suggests looking on Meetup.com for user groups in this discipline.
- Shailvi has participated in the Women in Data Science or WiDS community (lots of resources here), speaking at various WiDS events and keynoting at the Miami chapter conference in 2021 (see keynote video here).
- Shailvi has also been a part of Data Umbrella. They regularly host events covering core technical training which can benefit anyone.
- Data Umbrella is a larger community that covers many topics, and Women in Data Science (WiDS) has multiple chapters which are for in-person meetups in specific locations.
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Where does a data science organization fit in a company?
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The three most common places Shailvi has seen where a company starts to indicate a need for data science (i.e. analytics, etc.) are:
- Product engineering (you’re building something and want to understand the meaning behind it, measure it, etc.)
- Marketing is a common place where the first data scientist in a company is hired. They benefit from understanding the return on investment from their (usually) very big expenditures. Staying on top of this is very useful to companies.
- Finance is always interested in core analytics of product performance, engineering performance, etc.
- Companies usually start off where a couple of departments usually have their own analyst or their own data scientist. Eventually the company becomes large enough that you decide to centralize that entire function.
- At Strava they were at the centralized phase where they had product analysts, marketing analysts, and community analysts; but all reported up under one organization. That organization can then report up through product, technology, a chief operating officer, or even the CEO. Any of this can change based on the specific company.
- Nick suspects if listeners do not work for a software company (or even if they do), they might not know where to look within their own company to speak with someone who is in a data science type role.
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You can find Shailvi on her website, shailvi.com.
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There are links to her social handles on Twitter, LinkedIn, etc. on the site.
- She also offers free office hours for people who are looking for mentorship.
- Shailvi is also working on a book titled Self Advocacy, a topic she is very passionate about and has spoken about for years. At the time of this recording she is looking for agents. More details about the book can be found on her website.
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Mentioned in the outro
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Don’t think of going into management as a promotion. It’s a different job. Don Jones mentioned in Episode 137 that a lower level manager will get paid the same as a higher level individual contributor due to market value of management skills.
- Check out Episode 45 on Career Conversations with Your Manager for tips on how these discussions should go and what to do if you are not having them.
- In interviews, it’s ok to ask for job leveling standards for a company that show the impact / skillset tied to the level of the role. And knowing the standard for your title at your current company could help you articulate it to a new company so they can level a new role appropriately for you.
- Data science personnel, whether in a centralized data science organization or not, should consider the value they can add to a company. They should consider line of sight to revenue. Previous guest Anudeep Parhar mentioned this (line of sight to revenue) being important for executives in Episode 208 and Episode 209.
- We need to say one more special thanks to Neil Thompson of Teach the Geek for connecting us with Shailvi.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 210 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of a discussion with Shailvi Wakhlu. We’ll talk through Shailvi’s early experience as a developer, her love for coding, a shift to focus on data, and her experience as a tech lead and business owner who eventually went back to life as an individual contributor.
Original Recording Date: 01-17-2023
Topics – Meet Shailvi Wakhlu, The Development Life, Mentoring and Education, Engineer and Full Stack Developer, A Forced Decision, Realities of the Analyst Role, Tech Lead to Manager and Owner, A Business Sunsets4:28 – Meet Shailvi Wakhlu* Shailvi Wakhlu (she/her) is based in San Francisco and was most recently a senior director and head of data at a sports tech company. During the time Shailvi was there, she ran a department of 27 product analysts and machine engineers. + Shailvi recently left that job to take a break and see her family in India after not being able to visit home for a 3-year period due to COVID. After the 3 years we’ve all had, the visit was much needed. + At present she is interviewing with multiple companies for VP of Data roles. * Nick listened to this episode of Teach the Geek featuring Shailvi to prepare for today’s discussion. It’s a great episode to go learn more about Shailvi’s public speaking experiences. + Special thanks to Neil Thompson for making the connection to Shailvi!
5:28 – The Development Life* Shailvi trained as a computer engineer in college. Coding was a basic skill needed for software engineering jobs.Shailvi’s first job was titled web engineering, and then after moving locations it was changed to software engineering. Coding was the skill the company wanted for those who were being hired in this type of role. * Many companies have a specific language in which they expect candidates to be competent, but even more important according to Shailvi is being able to break down problems into component parts is something used in every developer job. + Being able to estimate project timelines and costs are important skills for the would be developer (i.e. knowing what it takes to get something completed). + Communication is also important for the developer. You have to update people, give them some idea of what you are doing and how you are doing it, and how you actually get things accomplished. * Shailvi says being able to articulate (on a resume) not just the experiences you’ve had but also what you have learned from it is very helpful. + Shailvi has seen candidates be successful when they not only described the project they worked on but also how they went about doing it. + For those looking to break into development or who may be fresh out of school, the ability to take something that is somewhat ambiguous, come at it from a customer perspective, and get to a solution can be demonstrated on your resume. And this is a distinguishing characteristic Shailvi looks for in candidates. + Shailvi says demonstrating experience solving a problem in a different language than a company may have on a job description is still helpful. She would hesitate to discount experience in another language because though there are syntax differences between programming languages the basic concepts remain the same. - For senior level roles you may need multiple years experience in a specific language, but for something entry level, experience in a specific language is not required (assuming you have some relatable experience from using another language). - Most good companies tend to look for buckets (or groupings) of languages and for candidates to have experience in at least one of them. They do not expect you to know everything about what they need for a specific job. - Nick says this is analogous to a compensation range but for programming languages (i.e. a range of languages) and would likely lead to more strong candidates as a result. - Shailvi says it is important for companies to list multiple languages in the job description, especially those closely related to what they are looking for. - When Shailvi was a PHP developer, she would search for those keywords, for example. If a company listed Python or Perl in the job description, she would not landed on the job in question because it did not match her search terms. We also know that applicant tracking systems are looking for keywords in resumes as a way to filter candidates.
10:48 – Mentoring and Education* Shailvi is big on mentoring. + She has volunteered at a local middle school to teach students math in the past. + Shailvi has also taught coding students ranging from middle school to those right out of high school. + Shailvi is very interested in the questions young people ask regarding what her job is like. - Some young people even want to know how much Shailvi gets paid in her line of work. Young people want to know which jobs are going to pay well and get them the lifestyle they want. - When we say lifestyle someone may want to be able to travel frequently or stay close to their family and would prefer a remote job. For those who love learning, they may want to find a role that will require them to keep learning year after year. - For the example lifestyles we discussed, software engineering is a great option. It has creative aspects and learning aspects. Shailvi feels there is something in it for everyone. * Shailvi loves to code, and she finds it to be like solving puzzles. She grew up on detective stories and was fascinated with being given a problem and being able to get to a solution in multiple ways. + Having creative control of solving a problem was exciting to Shailvi, and she enjoyed the coding lifestyle. + Shailvi enjoys coding so much that even now, despite not getting a chance to code much in her current job, she will still dedicate time to do it now and then. + Many people think when they move up or into different roles they have to leave everything behind. Shailvi is an example that we can still take time to do the things we enjoy. + Even if not coding for part of our day jobs, we can still find time to code in our free time. + Shailvi not only enjoys coding but seeks to keep the skill of coding current as much as she can. + Shailvi has been focusing in Python as the language she works with in her spare time as it is finding more usefulness in the data space where she works. A few years ago she had to make a decision between Python and R, and at the time she chose Python. - Shailvi feels many other in the industry made a move toward Python as well, and though she learned Python long ago, she tries to stay on top of new use cases and applications of it (always something to learn). * Each company has their own perspective on value of a degree compared to a boot camp for incoming job candidates. * As a hiring manager, Shailvi likes to look at the totality of the experiences someone is able to bring. + She has a lot of respect for people who want to learn a new skill like coding to change careers or learn something they were not taught in college. + Shailvi may not be in a position to put these candidates in a senior role based only on their experiences before acquiring coding skills. + Remember it isn’t just about being able to code. + While coding is something you can certainly be taught at a boot camp, but hopefully through your other experiences you have picked up skills that can add to your journey as a software engineer / software developer such as… - The ability to explain what you are doing - The ability to understand problems and care about the solutions + The above are typically not something a boot camp will teach you, but they are things other life experiences and other jobs will teach you. * What about apprenticeships? + Shailvi has not known many people who have taken this path but has heard about it as an option. She has heard of specific companies offering specific learning paths. + As a concept it does sound like a very interesting option.
17:10 – Engineer and Full Stack Developer* Shailvi tends to use the terms software engineer and software developer interchangeably. When she worked at her first job some folks had the title of software engineer and some software developer. But no one seemed to know the difference. * Shailvi believes there used to be some difference in educational skillsets, but if there is a massive distinction she has not seen it. * When she worked for Monster.com, Shailvi’s role was defined internally as full stack developer even though the external facing title was still software engineer. + Some engineers inside the company were considered full stack and some were not considered full stack with the primary difference being full stack developers work on everything related to an application such as… - The front end - The back end, which would include databases (allowing Shailvi to pick up some database manipulation skills like SQL / MySQL) - Programming the browser with HTML / CSS - Programming the server with PHP and Perl + Nick loved learning SQL when he worked in IT operations and systems administration. There is an elegance in typing a command into a command line or blank window and getting the data back that you wanted to get. * What about that technical generalist who knows some scripting languages? How could they slide over into software development? + Shailvi says we should look at the jobs out there in this area (whether on LinkedIn, a company website, or some other site). + She loves that now most jobs have a posted salary range. Find some jobs that based on location, salary, and some other parameters make sense to you. + Think about what is common between those jobs as well as what you really want. Shailvi says we can almost reverse engineer and think about what it might take to get a "job like that." + As a word of caution, be aware of technology change. Something that is a hot skill today could be obsolete if you take 5 years to learn it. This is part of the reason Shailvi thinks going to boot camps instead of pursuing a second degree is quite powerful. - This enables a faster turn around time to get industry relevant job skills and learn programming languages that are in high demand. - For newer technologies there may not be many people who have experience with these which can often mean people are willing to take a chance on someone who has spent time learning and doing projects in these areas (allowing the candidate to position themselves in a much better way. * Are code snippets on GitHub going to get the attention of a hiring manager? + Shailvi hasn’t hired software engineers in a long time. When she is on hiring panels for these roles she is looking at how they collaborate with data, etc. + She says even when hiring for data-focused roles (like analysts), they are also expected to code. Snippets can be very helpful as can linking to a portfolio of work you have done on your resume. + But no one will hire someone without getting them to do some form of coding exercise. This could be a live exercise, pair programming, or an assignment you complete on your own time. Different companies have a mix and match approach to how they test coding skills. The expectation is there that you will be asked to demonstrate proof of code (i.e. prove you can write code for something).
22:58 – A Forced Decision* Shailvi has told this story multiple times but is going to reframe the story for our current climate. * After working as a software engineer for 5 years (at Monster) she was encouraged to move to the analytics side. + During the 5-year period Shailvi moved across 3 different continents. + The business had also decided to (by this time) layoff the rest of Shailvi’s team who were in the United States. She was the last person on that team left and was working in India. + The business did the layoffs and gave Shailvi some options. She was told the team she was on no longer existed and she could take the severance package and make tomorrow her last day or take an analyst role. + This is the part of the story Shailvi hasn’t really mentioned previously. This came as part of a tradeoff in a layoff situation. It was an interesting situation because the company offered the option of a very generous severance package, but Shailvi also had no clue what being an analyst meant or what an analyst did. + After hearing that in the new role as analyst she would still get to code 50% of the time, Shailvi agreed to take the analyst role. And that is the story of how she got into analytics. It was chance, luck, timing, and a bad economy. + Shailvi was only giving a day to think about it before being forced to make a decision, and this may have been due to the fact that she was working out of India and not in the US. + She felt lucky that she had an option and strongly considered taking the severance. Shailvi is glad she chose to learn something new and try something different in taking the analyst role. It worked out very well for her. * In all of this, the roles Shailvi and her teammates were doing were completely eliminated. + The team had been slowly shrinking in the years leading up to all of this and was not a huge surprise. + The company was a great company to work for, and Shailvi was grateful to have worked there for so long. + The analyst role was a net new position. * In her time working as a software engineer before the change to analyst, Shailvi was working for a US-based team with no operations in India at all. + Shailvi indicated to her employer she would like to move back to India but keep her job as a software engineer. She even took a pay cut to do this and would work out of her company’s office in India. + There was another team at the India office working on a completely different part of the business who knew they could use an analyst to help what they were doing. + The move of Shailvi to analyst was a way to take someone who had experience at the company and knew the business and retain them (Shailvi). + Since Shailvi had made relationships at the India office with members of the other team, they knew of her reputation and were willing to make a new role. + Shailvi would ask others in the India office for help when she ran into issues because her colleagues were sleeping. Even though Shailvi was asking for help, it was still showcasing what she was capable of doing. - One thing she was capable of doing was asking for help with a problem when she got stuck. - Nick likes this perspective of asking for help demonstrating to others what you are working on and the problem you are trying to solve.
28:55 – Realities of the Analyst Role* Shailvi was told the analyst role would still be 50% time spent coding, and she thinks in many cases it was more than that (which is not a problem for someone who loves to code). * Shailvi says some of her mathematics skills from time in education had atrophied by this time. As an analyst statistics is a very highly prized skill, but it was something she had barely used as an engineer. * Shailvi had to learn things like how and when to run an experiment and how to evaluate the success of an experiment (something she did frequently as an analyst). * She also had to present the findings in a compelling manner (which some may consider a soft skill). It was a very different skill for her. + As a software engineer, Shailvi did not have to try to convince someone to select the right option based on hard data findings (i.e. trust her findings). + "As a software engineer, you don’t have to convince somebody about trusting your findings. You are asked to solve a problem, and you either solve it or you don’t solve it." – Shailvi Wakhlu * Shailvi also had to learn things like basic dashboarding (not something she had done previously). * As far as getting help filling the skills gaps… + During her time on different continents in previous years Shailvi had met people in Europe who worked on other teams at the company that she ended up contacting for some guidance and help filling the skills gaps. + Shailvi also had a personal network of people she knew from college and friends which could be tapped for help. They pointed her in the right direction at times. + Shailvi’s manager was also quite helpful in providing general guidance on what she could learn / focus on. * Shailvi loved the data analyst role after getting into it and is extremely happy she made the move. + Looking back on her career. Shailvi doesn’t know if she would have stumbled into it on her own but feels like data would have found her. After the analyst role she has never looked back. + "I loved my software engineering days, but now that I’m in data I’m not going back." – Shailvi Wakhlu * When Shailvi would run experiments one of the reasons behind it (to take an example) was to make the Monster.com alerting algorithm more relevant to more people. She would test multiple iterations to see which one would in fact land people more jobs, better jobs, more relevant jobs, etc. + Likely very few people understand the analytics back end that goes into sites like Monster.com or other popular sites these days.
32:57 – Tech Lead to Manager and Owner* Shailvi would go on from there (after 6 years at Monster) to start a business called Abundance Group. Nick calls this an experiment in and of itself. * Shailvi says part of this was timing, location, and things she was seeing. In the worst case scenario if this did not work out she had a job she liked and that suited her. * She was setup financially to try something, and if in a year she didn’t get enough traction it would still be ok. She had skills and experience that would still be relevant. * Shailvi and her husband were at a stage where they could start a company together, so they did! * Shailvi and her husband met in college and were used to navigating things together but still maintaining boundaries and discipline. They are each pretty structured. + They had set times in which they would work and tried to only work within those time slots. Your own company is never a 9-5 job, but they did try to separate work time and time not working. + They kept a cadence of vacations, family events, and spending times with friends. When it was time to work on their startup it was a different thing. + Shailvi and her husband established clear areas of ownership. She owned pieces, they might work on them together, and she owned the final decisions for those pieces. In a similar way here husband owned certain pieces and was the final decision maker. Because of these mechanisms, they had ways to overcome disagreements (if there were any) before they even started. + Her husband was in charge of getting customers, for example, and would sometimes sell things they did not know how to build. Shailvi was responsible for the technology. * Shailvi had experience as a tech lead before owning a business, which indicates leadership experience. But she had not previously acted as a manager. + Drawing on experience down the road, Shailvi constructed a spreadsheet outlining the difference in responsibility between a tech lead and a manager. + To summarize, tech leads are primarily responsible for the technical delivery of something. They can own decisions around the architecture, how something would be delivered, and various other technical decisions which may arise. + Unless there is a separate project manager, often times the tech lead will be responsible for communicating timelines, coordinating with stakeholders, making sure requirements are met, etc. + A manager’s primary job is to manage the people who report up to them. This means a manager is responsible for… - Employee career growth - Employee satisfaction in work being done - Giving important feedback to their reports on things which need development / areas of further growth + Managers can sometimes be technical leads that manage a technical project and all the people who work on that project. These roles can be separated, and it really depends on the company. + Someone who is a manager and not a tech lead also is responsible for employee health, happiness, and growth. + Player / coach tends to mean the person doing the managing or leading is also doing some of the work themselves. This is another distinction. Someone can be accountable for delivery but not actually executing on it (i.e. might just be coordinating the people who are executing on it). There are many different terms which resonate with different people. * During the time she owned her business, Shailvi was both player and coach. + When the company began, Shailvi wrote all the code herself. She knew as the business grew more people would be needed to shrink delivery time and meet customer demand. + Once there were more employees on board, Shailvi would serve as tech lead for some projects. For the rest of the projects, a different employee at the company served as the lead. + Shailvi also served as manager to a group of employees. management was very new to her, and her skills were in a very nascent state. + Shailvi started by hiring one developer, and this person brought along 2 others to work with Shailvi and her husband. Shailvi says this is the kind of thing you want. You want to retain employees, for them to refer other employees, and for employees to care about the outcomes of the business. * Shailvi certainly had aspirations to move into leadership after her early experience as a tech lead, but it was not the primary motivator to start a company. + Starting a company for Shailvi was more about trying something different and stepping outside her comfort zone (a structured environment working for an employer). She wanted to try something that was ambiguous, that had the potential to grow, and that had the potential for her to learn in many areas, etc. + Though the outcome from starting a company was some great experience in leadership, the primary motivation was something very different. * Advice for someone wanting to start their own business… + Finances have to work out for you to do something like this (a very critical piece). + You must have conviction in your skills and the proper discipline. + Making as many decisions as you can up front with rationale behind the decisions and sticking to those decisions makes the process easier. + The idea here is decide what you will do in specific situations before those happen. That means you need to think about possible scenarios in advance and have a planned action. - For example, if you are starting a business right now and you need to get 5 paying customers within a year for it to make sense. - In an ideal world you would spread these out over a year (i.e. once every few months you get a new paying customer). This is typically not how it happens. You may reach month 11, convince that first customer, and then get a couple more. * Before staring Abundance Group that she co-ran with her husband, Shailvi had started her own company. It was a failed startup that she worked on for a couple of months and then gave up due to lack of traction (not listed on her LinkedIn). + This was the first time Shailvi learned she did not have a fully formed plan. She had not accounted for the fact that it could take a lot longer to get something than she expected. + If you’re considering starting a company, have a plan, and have a fail scenario (i.e. what you will do if you do not hit your timeline milestones). Nick suggests this means you need a run book for success and failure. * There is one key difference between product manager and product owner. + The product manager owns the strategy and the vision of a product. + A product owner is more tactical. They are usually executing on someone else’s strategy and vision. * Shailvi says when owning her company the strategy and vision came from the clients. Clients would normally share a high level "pie in the sky" of what they want / want to do. + Shailvi might give feedback on a client’s strategy and vision, but it was ultimately owned by the client. + Most companies have product managers to develop a clear strategy and vision so that people working on the product can execute within that vision and strategy.
44:11 – A Business Sunsets* Part of this always comes back to timing, location, and logistics. * While she was running her own company (somewhere in the middle of it), Shailvi and her husband decided they wanted to move back to the United States (San Francisco).
+ Some of Shailvi’s clients were based in Menlo Park, California while others were based in the Middle East or in India.
+ After coming to the US, she realized the business would not scale in the same way.
+ The finances worked when she was earning in dollars and spending in rupees. Now she was living in one of the most expensive cities in the country, and she needed to earn a lot more for it to make sense.
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It was a conscious decision that Shailvi did not want to scale the business to a giant operation.
- Being in silicon valley was also something very exciting in Shailvi’s line of work.
- This was an opportunity to learn on someone else’s dime. Shailvi wanted to learn from others who are building interesting things. She had a lot of value to add but also a lot of value to gain from other ways people might be doing things.
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Shailvi likes to make decisions based on data (and considers herself to be a data driven individual).
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A spreadsheet helped her make the decision to move to San Francisco (SF), so she made the move.
- By the time she was in San Francisco, she had worked as an engineer for 5 years, had run her own company for 2-3 years, had worked as an analyst for a year, and there was product ownership in between. There were a few different options as to which path she could take.
- At this point Shailvi picked the thing most interesting to her, which was analytics, despite only having a year of hard experience in the discipline. She decided to go after this for a couple of months, and if she could not find something, her plan was to re-evaluate to see if she needed to go after something different.
- But she never ran into this problem. It worked out well for her.
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Shailvi did get asked why she wanted to become an individual contributor again, but overall, she felt it was looked upon very positively in the interview processes to become an individual contributor again.
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Shailvi says it was appealing to people that she had tried something on her own.
- There were also multiple applications she had built that she could point to and share the reasons for building them.
- There were companies who really questioned how Shailvi would fit into a role where she was not the boss (which is a valid concern).
- Her next role after owning her own company was working for Prezi. It was framed as a leadership role, and the company was happy to have someone with that type of experience. It was framed as an opportunity which still kept some of the things she was used to doing.
- Shailvi was told she would start as an individual contributor but would be given her own team after a few months, which did not end up happening (nothing to do with Shailvi).
- Some months later a leadership role opened which was more of a tech lead for all of the analysts in the San Francisco offices (2 of them).
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Mentioned in the outro
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Continuing to spend time on coding despite Shailvi’s progression to higher levels of management is similar to the advice in The Manager’s Path by Camille Fournier.
- Maybe we should add Shailvi’s guidance to articulate lessons learned on a resume to our standard advice? It was a great point!
- Check out John’s mention of the dangle from Manager Tools.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 209 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of a discussion with Anudeep Parhar, exploring the difference in the CIO and CTO roles, communicating with executives, conducting executive 1-1s, and progression from CIO to COO (Chief Operating Officer).
Original Recording Date: 01-06-2023
Anudeep Parhar is the Chief Operating Office for digital operations at Entrust. Entrust is a technology global company based in Minneapolis, Minnesota servicing two broad sectors – payments and identities sector and digital solution and cybersecurity sector. If you missed it, catch part 1 of our discussion with Anudeep in Episode 208.
Topics – A Moment of Ignition, The CTO and the CIO, Communicating with Executives, The Chief Operating Officer’s Lens, Passions and Knowing Yourself2:37 – A Moment of Ignition* Nick thinks it has to be hard to get used to walking into rooms with everyone in the room smarter than you. It’s not that you are not smart and do not bring experience to the discussion, but the people around you have a deeper, often different level of expertise than you. + This is not just book smart. People are a lot more savvy in their own disciplines. + You have to challenge yourself to walk into situations like this. If you want to be the smartest person in the room you’ve already lost. + Doing this is uncomfortable. It drives you to learn things you wouldn’t really think you need to learn. For example, maybe you realize you need to learn about what the FCC is doing about the broadband channel. - It may have little to do with your day job, but it definitely impacts you. This is part of a learning mindset that can be beneficial to us all. * At Thompson Reuters in the 1990s, there was a lot of effort being put into developing people, including formal and informal mentoring programs. Anudeep feels lucky to have been there during this time and was able to meet a number of very business minded people (not just technology minded people). * Anudeep very clearly remembers when his company originally acquired Thompson and the company creating a new entity. He was at the time a young engineer trying to figure out how to run a small team. The CTO of the company was picked to become the CEO of the company. + It was the first time a large company had made this kind of decision (the CTO to CEO promotion), and it was very empowering for Anudeep. + Anudeep learned that it is much easier for a technology leadership people to cross over into being business minded if you have the right attitude rather than a purely business minded person to understand the nuances of technology. It will be easier to upskill in business than if you need to upskill in technology. + Anudeep saw this and thought, "if he can do it then I can do it. What do I need to know to do that?" + "If you want to exist at those levels, you have to be in line of revenue. Figure out a way to get there. Fight hard. Be able to talk about how you’re in the line of revenue. Otherwise you’re just a productivity measurement" – Anudeep Parhar + At a certain level you cannot just be a cost and say that is what it takes. You have to be able to speak to how something enables and the business and therefore in line of sight of revenue. * Anudeep was fortunate to work at a company with a lot of mentorship. * He also believes you have to be out there in the community (for professional networking). + This was before LinkedIn, so you formed local networks with like-minded people and would push yourself to take the time for having conversations with others. + Platforms like LinkedIn have made this easier, but in Anudeep’s opinion, people still do not use it like they could be. + You have to put yourself out there and be humble about requesting assistance. Ask for 30 minutes, and make the effort to go see people where they are. + "You have to actively seek out mentors. Mentors are not going to come look for you. You have to take the initiative." – Anudeep Parhar + Nick mentions with a tool like LinkedIn, you have to determine how much time and effort you want to spend using it compared to other tools out there. * When we see people who are more like us succeed at something we might want to do, it gives us more confidence that we can accomplish the same thing.
8:35 – The CTO and the CIO* By CTO we mean Chief Technology Officer, and by CIO we mean Chief Information Officer. * According to Anudeep, these roles are somewhat malleable with people in them doing different things depending on where you look. * If you’ve been on an executive team long enough, there’s not a specific framework for the roles. They usually get assigned to make sure the team is cohesive. + Businesses have challenges, and you assign roles based on what you need done. It cannot be just randomly built but rather built on some industry definitions. Don’t take it too literally that there is only one definition of CIO or CTO. * Since these are chief positions, you are the owner of whatever that function is. + Generally speaking CTOs are considered more outward looking technology if you have any. + Historically healthcare companies and other industries did not have / build outward looking technology and therefore only had CIOs (mainly concerned about internal technology). + A CTO’s stakeholders are generally customers, partners, and people who pay to buy your product / stuff. + If you’re a CIO your stakeholders are usually internal folks – colleagues, the board of directors, etc. + Numbers and money come into play here. We’re talking about the internal technology infrastructure (servers, etc.) and the budgets for it getting rolled under the CIO (whose budgets and span of control only grew by impacting internal functions). - This got rolled under the G&A (or General and Administrative Expenses) line on corporate income statements. - When that became big, there was a clear shift that happened. Unless you are a purely tech company whose primary focus is technology, CTOs used to work for CIOs because most it was part of the broader head of information technology and companies didn’t have much outward facing technology for a CTO to manage. This is one way it was structured. - Another way was if you’re a technology company your head of technology needs to be able to talk about the tech you built. There, the roles were reversed with internal IT reporting up to the CTO. The same thing happened with the Chief Security Officer as well (CISO). - Depending on the company, these functions could be collapsed into one organization, formed into a structured hierarchy, or could even be peer organizations. This is all evolving. + Generally CIOs largely look at internal technology and CTOs external technology. If you are a technology company, CTO is the head of all technology. And if not (healthcare, retail, etc.), a CIO usually holds the top job. * How "technical" should the CIO be? + Anudeep says technical is a continuum. + Would you ever trust a company whose head of sales has never carried a bag (i.e. a quota)? The answer should be no. Would you ever trust a CFO (Chief Financial Officer) who has never done accounting work? + These are not generic general management jobs like they were 50 years ago. They are functional roles. Anudeep expects people who have the head technology job to be pretty technologically savvy. They don’t have to know how everything works, but if Anudeep said ChatGPT, a someone in a CIO role should at least know about it and not have to Google it right then. + Staying on top of current trends is really important for technical leaders whether they be CIO, CTO, or other. + When leading people organizations you need to be able to make reasonable arguments and justify why you think a certain way. + These are not general management jobs like general management jobs of old where you just preside over an organization. You are expected to know your stuff. * For the would-be CIO… + For those who have worked in infrastructure organizations, there are businesses where all CIOs do is run networks and provision servers. That’s one way to achieve it. + Based on where Anudeep believes the industry is going, you need things like project management skills, the ability to run large cross-functional projects, and leadership skills to get there. And you have to be able to zigzag a little within functions. + Within traditional technology organizations, there are infrastructure people, project management people, application development people, and then application admin people (i.e. those who maintain large Oracle / SAP ERP systems). + In order to move ahead you have to be able to show that you can do more than just one piece. You do not need to be an expert in all of them, but you need to be able to say you have the wherewithal to do them. + Gain more skills. If you’re a core infrastructure person, try to get into the application environment. If you’re in the application environment, try to get into application development. And do it early in your career. + No one is going to look down on you for doing many different things over the course of several years. People actually like to see it. Anudeep personally went through this. + Anudeep’s first job (at Thompson Reuters) was 16 or 17 years. And he’s had 5 jobs since then. He’s felt bad taking roles for just a couple of years, but in hindsight, they were deliberate choices he made to gain other skills (which is how he explains it). - He wanted to get into healthcare, how to bring a company in house, how to build and sell a company, etc. + If you want a CIO gig or head of technology gig, try to get into at least 1-2 other functions, and don’t be afraid of only doing it for a year. That’s fine. + Things are seldom given to you. You have to take the risk and try it.
16:06 – Communicating with Executives* You have to know the audience a little bit. * Anudeep projects a very clear picture to his organization that he is very commercially minded. He has expertise in areas as we discussed (how to build and run things, etc.) and proven experience doing it. + Over the past 10 years or so Anudeep has been shifting his viewpoint to be more commercially minded. + If you’re an individual contributor in Anudeep’s organization, you will get a lot more attention and time with him if you bring that point of view (wanting to learn the commercial side, for example). If somoene wants to come talk to him about other things, he has interest but not that much interest. + People need to know how to communicate and what to communicate. With that you need to know your audience and prepare yourself to talk about things the right way. + Many times you don’t need to go and say all the smartest things. Anudeep has been very fortunate in his career to have senior executives take his calls and met with him. + When you speak to an executive, bring a point of view on a situation, and bring something to ask. + Anudeep clearly remembers when at Blue Cross one of his peers ran the government business, which was very profitable. Anudeep had no idea of the nuances of health insurance in the government sector. - Anudeep went and spoke to his peer about some technology topic, which he really liked. But then, Anudeep asked his peer about his business. - It builds a relationship where people actually want to talk to you. People like to talk about what they are good at and what they do. If you can create communication like that it is a very effective tool that will lead to repeat visits. + Nick says this speaks to what we encourage people to do in job interviews – bring questions. You can learn all kinds of things from people just by asking questions. - Anudeep reinforces the point that people love to talk about themselves. Use that to your benefit! - "People love to talk about what they have done and how good they are at what they have done, especially folks who are successful. Use that because there are nuggets of learning there. Bring something to the table, and don’t be afraid to ask for something." – Anudeep - Most executives Anudeep knows will respect this approach. * Anudeep says for most interviews done at his current company, by the time someone reaches his desk, they have already been vetted. It’s largely a fit conversation at that point. + Anudeep shares the recent story of interviewing someone for 30 minutes for a pretty critical position. He told the candidate in the first 15 minutes he wanted to hear about why they were having the conversation (i.e. more about why the person wanted the job). But the second 15 minutes was to be for the candidate to allow that person to ask Anudeep whatever they wanted. + Anudeep says you see a distinct difference in people when the 15 minutes for questions happens. They start asking about the culture, how aspects of the business works, etc. This tells Anudeep the person is excited and interested to work at the company. For whose who say they don’t have any questions, he’s not no sure they should be added to the company. + People need to take the time to prepare for these conversations, and leverage the fact that people love talking about themselves. + Nick says this element of preparation is important. Don’t forget to use the tools available to research those you speak to in advance!
21:12 – The Chief Operating Officer’s Lens* Anudeep says titles and compensation are very important. Don’t let anyone tell you they are not. * In addition to this, Anudeep likes developing people. Over the years in the jobs he’s had Anudeep remembers a lot of the tech built, but largely he remembers the people. It’s the people he has developed who are now in better jobs and running large organizations (i.e. people who are now CIOs at large organizations). Anudeep says it’s fun to see this. * One of the commitments Anudeep had made to his CEO and board of directors was developing someone inside the organization who had potential to fill his role as CIO in the event he decides to leave the company. * Also, outside of technology operations, Anudeep could provide value to the organization as someone with a broader operational point of view. + Anudeep loves being out with customers as well as talking to partners and brainstorming to help solve problems. + Anudeep says two thirds of this was him wanting to provide an opportunity to some very smart people within his organization (like the now CIO of Entrust as well as the new CISO). * That gives Anudeep time to focus on more of the commercial operations, and with the company’s growth he gets to sort of fly at a different altitude and impact more areas. + Managing managers is one thing. Managing VP level people is another. Managing C-level executives is a totally different thing. These people are high performing and high achieving. It’s a growth and stretch opportunity for Anudeep as well. + Anudeep brings reasonable humility to what he does. It’s not about him but about the smart people doing the work. Anudeep is fortunate to have management and a board who supports it. * What kinds of things is Anudeep looking for in a 1-1 discussion at his lens? + Anudeep works with great people and wouldn’t send them a form to fill out beforehand or anything, but there are basic structures in use. + Even if the dialogue is more informal, you know the key points you need to hit and must make sure the people you are having a 1-1 with are clear on what the expectation is. + There’s a concept called the ten five. If it takes you ten minutes to explain it and five minutes for Anudeep to understand it, a 1-1 makes sense. But if it’s longer than that we should have a dedicated meeting on the topic (gives time to look at something and absorb). + A privilege of being in positional authority is the ability to clobber anyone’s calendar. + A 1-1 is really Anudeep being available for the said person (a subordinate, a peer, etc.). - And if the person does not show up, Anudeep will not be offended. It’s a time to have a conversation on what the other person wants to discuss. + If Anudeep needs something specific he will setup a meeting and send the person what he’s expecting in advance. - He believes in the importance of setting goals for a meeting very clearly (including the outcome you are looking for) and using the subject line for the meeting appropriately. - After the meeting you have to follow up with action items from the discussion. Anudeep likes to write it down and send it out so both he and the other person remember what was discussed and the action items. + You need some formalization on how you do 1-1s, how you do meetings, especially if you are running large organizations. * If you impact growth and other organizations in the company, you need to be able to do quarterly business reviews (QBRs), discuss operations reviews, etc. Structure is important. + As you are part of larger organizations, not everyone may care or want to do a QBR, but you have to show line of sight. + There are corporate QBRs with the CEO to discuss how the business is doing and how to adjust (i.e. how revenue and margins are doing, how different business areas are doing, etc.). + Then you have to bring that back from a line of sight to the next level of leadership down and make it a little more relevant to them, for example: - People are going to get paid this year (a very personal one). - The priorities are shifting, so if you see the company make a change, don’t be surprised. - "It’s good to have a line of sight. Not everybody cares for it or wants it, but absence of it is clearly felt (if you do not have a line of sight)." + You don’t have to do a physical QBR, but you have to be able to send out some materials about company performance and where challenges are. It prepares people for shifting priorities and helps them understand the reasons behind the changes. * The comment about QBRs and operational reviews are examples of a leader (like Anudeep) knowing the audience downward and how to communicate it to them, making sure people understand how what they do fits within the organization (i.e. understanding their purpose). * It’s hard to do it according to Anudeep, but it is important. And you need to make the time for it as a leader. * "If you do these things consistently, nobody is going to thank you for doing them, but they will certainly notice when it’s not done." – Anudeep Parhar
29:40 – Passions and Knowing Yourself* How does a busy technology executive prevent burning out?
+ Some of this is about passion for what you do.
+ Anudeep’s family comes first, and he cherishes the time. Especially during COVID and over the holidays, his entire family is together. Flexibility of working from home helps.
+ Anudeep isn’t someone who can completely disconnect from work. It’s largely because he is interested in what he does and enjoys doing it.
+ He will carve the time out. If the family is going to spend time together during the day, at night he may read up on items of interest and finish work tasks.
+ Music and performing arts are a big part of Anudeep’s personal life (sort of his happy place). He might end up in the middle of the night watching a 1991 Frank Zappa concert in Prague, for example. And it’s good for him when he does things like this.
+ Anudeep says you have to know yourself. He knows what brings him peace and calm, and he has to find time for it (which sometimes may mean doing it in the middle of the night).
+ Technology has advanced in ways that can help when we have limited time. If you don’t have time to read a lot of books, there are a number of tools and podcasts where you can get snippets / summaries. It is good to keep yourself informed at a very quick pace.
- Anudeep also recommends Masterclass. He had been using it for a while and got it for his family for Christmas. It was fun to do that together as a family (i.e. listening to Samuel L. Jackson talk about how to act).
- "You have to find time to do these things. Do not give up your passions because otherwise it becomes work." – Anudeep Parhar
+ There are late nights and much coffee, but Anudeep still likes to do what he likes to do outside of work. And sometimes you have to carve out the time.
+ Nick says taking the time to do things you like gives you energy to go and do things you need to do.
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If you want to follow up with Anudeep, you can find him on LinkedIn or Twitter.
- Anudeep loves talking to people and giving back by helping others learn, and if he has the time he would be happy to do so.
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Mentioned in the outro
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Regarding regular 1-1s with your manger, check out
- Episode 45 – Career Conversations with Your Manager
- Episode 12 on Effective 1-1s with your maanger
- Check out these episodes with other executive leaders on their progression stories.
- Episode 71 – Journey to Executive Leadership with Brad Tompkins of VMUG
- Episode 72 – Board and Executive Relationships with Brad Tompkins of VMUG
- Episode 93 – Leadership and Supporting Employee Potential with Paul Green
- Episode 94 – Career Progression, the CIO Role, and Growing Towards It with Paul Green
- Episode 201 – Generate Depth On-Demand with Yvette Edwards (1/2)
- Episode 202 – Having Some Career Zigzags with Yvette Edwards (2/2)
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 208 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of a discussion with Anudeep Parhar, talking through his early career as a developer, and interest in technology in business, and the progression up to different levels of management.
Original Recording Date: 01-06-2023
Topics – Meet Anudeep Parhar, A Heads Down Developer, Talking about and Learning about the Business, The Move to Management, Progression to VP2:05 – Meet Anudeep Parhar* Anudeep Parhar is the Chief Operating Office for digital operations at Entrust. Entrust is a technology global company based in Minneapolis, Minnesota servicing two broad sectors – payments and identities sector and digital solution and cybersecurity sector. You can find Anudeep on Twitter here. * Anudeep pursued a degree in computer science in college. He shares that it was the only thing he’s good at and was easy for him. * Both of Anudeep’s parents were academics, and he grew up near a university in New Delhi, India. As a result he was around cutting edge technologies for the time (when punch cards and mainframes were considered posh). + When he was growing up people pushed those with the attitude and aptitude toward engineering and other STEM fields. + It was something Anudeep discovered he was good at, and he remembers the fun of writing his first program. In his middle school / high school years he gained exposure to some bespoke programming languages before personal computers existed. + Anudeep says he really doesn’t have any other skills. It is all he does and all he knows. * Anudeep likes to learn new things, and early on learning was a source of energy for him. + Finishing his bachelors was hard core computer science stuff like data structures, algorithm development, abstract mathematics, and how finite state machines work. + Learning these foundational concepts provides depth and informs how the technology we see and use (phones, desktops, etc.) actually work. * One reason for pursuing a master’s degree was his family background. It was kind of expected. + Anudeep mentions some general advice at people a young age was to do engineering and then do an MBA to get into business. + He received advice from his parents and some of his parents’ co-workers that on the job management experience might be better, and computing was exploding. + Since people thought computer networking was going to be huge and there wasn’t really any on the job training, you had to go to school to learn these things. + "I was interested in learning about some of the emerging, cutting edge technology which was supposed to change business forever, and there was no other way to do it except got to school" – Anudeep Parhar
6:37 – A Heads Down Developer* Anudeep started as a heads down developer. At the time many of the storage devices in use were still CDs. + Many in the financial services and legal space had CD towers people could access from their personal computer. + One of Anudeep’s first projects was writing some publication software that allowed taking digital content and publishing it to a CD in a form that was easily searchable. * Is this first role where Anudeep’s interest in FinTech began? + Anudeep left Thompson Reuters in 2009, but when he joined in the early 90s it used to be called West Publishing, a very forward looking technology trying to take legal and financial content and put it on digital media. + This was digital transformation 101 happening 30 years ago. They would take content that financial and legal worker could use to be more efficient in their daily work. + Financial and legal professions are based on research, precedents, being able to look up historical information, do what-if analysis, etc. + Another way to state the high level goal is rudimentary control systems purely based on research. - One system was to build media where you could put digital content. - In a time before Google search when Netscape and Mosaic were only beginning to be a thing. - Search algorithms to this point revolved around terms and connectors like "and" as well as "or." - Natural language search algorithms, in contrast, would allow searching a large set of data using verbose terminology (i.e. give me all cases in the state of New York in the jurisdiction of Manhattan where personal injury was involved as well as a banana peel in the rain). The search would translate natural language into terms and connectors and bring back a resultant set of data. + Anudeep had a lot of fun doing this. Around 1995 / 1996 he realized the technology was very cool, but realizing how professionals and businesses use the technology was also very cool. Being able to understand how using the technology made legal or financial services professionals or legal professionals better at their jobs was a very early form of digital transformation. + Anudeep got his technical chops in content-based systems in the financial services space.
10:54 – Talking about and Learning about the Business* Nick says many technologists do not dig into what the business they work for does, and it ends up making them less valuable to the company than they could be otherwise. + Anudeep agrees and cites a discussion from a community meeting he attended in Minneapolis with other technology leaders. In these meetings technology leaders are often providing mentorship to other attendees. + If we expect technology exec leadership to be a critical part of the business, one must be able to explain how your company makes money. It’s not a generic statement about the company selling health insurance, for example, but rather a description of how the business actually works. If you don’t understand that, your job is not as much fun, and you are really only an enabler of value creation as opposed to a creator of value. + Anudeep has a personal drive to be in line of sight of revenue regardless of what he does. Even if you are essentially cost to the business, you have to be worried about productivity, how to enable growth, etc. If you don’t bring that point of view how would you expect the organization around you to do it? + In peer groups, Anudeep likes to ask people to explain how their company makes money and what the go to market is. Often times people will say "that’s not my job." That is how you will limit your career. People who are interested in these things will have a really interesting career trajectory. - Many who are interested in these things go into leadership. - Anudeep has seen individual contributors who are really good at this as well. + Anudeep says technology career development is not a linear path like other disciplines. - "One of the reasons I like the technology career path and the technology discipline so much is there is a lot of zigzagging you can do to move your career around." – Anudeep Parhar - There is a large need for talented programmers, architects, quality assurance, and network engineers and a lot of money to be made. - In order to be effective and really good at what you do as you move higher up in an organization (even as an individual contributor), you have to be able to understand the business impact you are making and be able to articulate it. It does not mean you will have a bad career. It just means you will be limited. - Anudeep sees many high potential high performers get very frustrated because they do not have the vantage point in their careers to be able to have those conversations. They get relegated to saying "when we understand what we need from tech we’ll come back and tell you." - You may have ideas but not have the internal personal brand that people might expect (i.e. part of it being the ability to talk about the business you are in). - Just to emphasize, this is not specific to executive leadership and applies to the individual contributor as well. - "If you understand what the business is, that will make you better at your job. That’s just a fact." – Anudeep Parhar * Not everybody needs to be extremely technical or extremely business savvy. From the lens of career development, these are some of the skills and talents and perspectives that people look for. + Anudeep’s master’s thesis was based on the concept of retargeting target code for different hardware implementations (a nerdy way of saying what Java does). The idea is write code and then regardless of the underlying microprocessor architecture, one could retarget the code to run on that specific microprocessor architecture. Many years ago, the software and hardware were very tightly coupled. + When Anudeep was at Thompson Reuters, there were people who said they needed to move their code from C to C# or Java, but no one could explain why. Usually the reasoning was "because it’s better." They could not explain how it was better (i.e. the business benefit). + In the above scenario where no one could explain why swapping the code language was the best move and it’s business benefits, it is thought to be a bunch of technical people talking about new shiny objects. If you talk in terms of productivity, enabling growth, creating value for your customers and partners, etc. it’s a slightly different way of talking about it. + When people hear the benefits described in this way, they think "I should be enabling newer technology and upgrading technology in order to do this." + There were similar conversations that happened when Microsoft came out with the .NET framework. People wanted to make a switch because "it’s better." But how is it better? + Anudeep has seen it happen so many times, and it happens even now with technologies like ChatGPT. + "Unless we are able to at least talk about it and how it impacts our business, it’s just a piece of tech." – Anudeep Parhar * There’s a deeper level to this point in that we should be communicating with people in ways and terms they understand. A front line manager or skip-level manager likely will have a greater understanding of the business as a whole. We need to be able to effectively communicate why we should do something to our leaders or peers, and it seems like that it something that is not always developed or taught as people come through the ranks. * Anudeep agrees, and from his point of view, some of this comes from: + Not everyone has the desire. At various levels you have to be dangerous enough technically and must have enough "chops," but you’re expected to be more "business savvy." + It’s leading by example. If you’re an individual contributor you have to spend your time learning about these things. The morning of the day we recorded the interview Anudeep was reading the news about labor numbers the way they are and how it might impact macroeconomics (which someone may or may not need in their day job). Anudeep’s CEO even sent out his thoughts on the news. - "It surrounds your thinking on how you look at the business." – Anudeep Parhar + Anudeep believes a lot of this is setting the example and making people aware of how you think about these issues (i.e. the news on the labor market above), and then naturally people will gravitate toward a need to learn more about it as well. + There’s no specific playbook here according to Anudeep. It’s more of a mindset. If you are interested, you should learn, and if you learn your career will likely progress. Both your growth and earning potential will increase if you are more savvy.
19:16 – The Move to Management* Anudeep says there wasn’t really a time when he had a mindset shift / switch in progressing to people leadership. The individual contributor term did not really exist during his early career. If you wanted to grow your career, going into people management was just part of that journey. * Later in the growth of the technology ecosystem the term individual contributor became a larger part of human resources vernacular. + Around this time people realized there were subject matter experts who were needed to do certain things really, really well but that . But those individuals did not need to manage people. * Anudeep did not wake up one day thinking he wanted to manage people. He thought that was just what you were supposed to do. + "Otherwise you’re just pounding code all day long, and I just didn’t want to do that all day long." – Anudeep Parhar * There is no reason you have to lead a team of people to understand the business better. + There are several positions even at an executive level where you have a team of 1 but are a critical driver of the business. * Not everyone is predisposed to interpersonal skills, which is not a knock on anyone. Some people do not care for it or do not want to do it. * Self-realization is important here because moving into people leadership is a journey. More and more of your time goes toward enabling the team to be effective rather than on you being effective. + You get things accomplished through the team rather than with just yourself. It’s a different skill that you have to enjoy doing. + Many with an engineering mindset found you cannot be a super engineer and manage people, and Anudeep also went through it. If you try to do it you will not have work life balance (i.e. you will be pounding code at night and managing people during the day). You have to explicitly understand that you will make some tradeoffs. + In today’s business environment, Anudeep does not believe you have to go through people management to be successful. + There are some very strong roles which traditionally may have been individual contributor roles that are very high in the organization (may have smaller teams around them). Very large organizations like Microsoft, Amazon, or United Healthcare have CTOs (Chief Technology Officers) that are not there to manage large teams and build products but rather put them in positions high enough to have some positional authority and enable them to spend more time thinking about how technology will transform the business. You cannot do this if the majority of your time is spent on people management. + There are positions at high levels inside organizations where you can lead a small team and still have a very meaningful impact on the business (while also growing your career potential). * Anudeep struggled with becoming a little less "technical" and not being a super engineer any longer. + It’s a great feeling to solve a big problem, and you want to tell people about it. But more and more as a people leader you have to see that it’s about what other people are doing. - "Your idea of success and that eureka moment changes. You start enjoying more when teams do work. The higher up you go, there is a very clear shift that happens." – Anudeep Parhar - When you move from a manager of individual contributors to a manager of managers, it changes your perspective. You have to be more empathetic to the fact that you are working with people managers who themselves are career-oriented. - The work becomes how to build better teams, and when you are not around, how do you keep delivering all of this? + Nick says it does not make you less of a person to step up and put something down partially that you used to do full time. - Impostor syndrome for technical types has always been there but presents a little differently across generations. Anudeep’s kids are growing up and think they can take over the world (not seeming to be inhibited by impostor syndrome). Anudeep felt it and still does today. + Some of this was a lot of right time / right place / right opportunity instances for Anudeep backed by hard work. - The feelings we’ve discussed are all natural feelings and provide us with a healthy way of looking at things.
26:17 – Manager of People Managers* If you’ve chosen the career of managing people, Anudeep advises not shying away from it unless it’s something you really don’t want to do. * To step beyond front line management, invest the time to learn how to lead people who are themselves people managers. + Your line of sight changes. Empowerment becomes a lot bigger part of your job as opposed to just getting the work done. + When leading a team of engineers, though no one admits it, the mental model becomes, "if they cannot do it I will just do it myself." So some people will stay up late and do the work for their team. + "Once you are managing people you have to be able to build skills and chops to be able to get people to do it." – Anudeep Parhar + You need to be particular about those softer skills like learning to do 1-1s, monthly meetings, etc. because each of these becomes a data point in driving people to complete work. + If you do not learn and spend time on these frameworks you will become someone who is a week away from delivering on something with no idea why you are behind. + Spend time learning the frameworks. Don’t think it’s obvious to learn these things. It’s good to read some books or take some classes. Most companies already have these frameworks, and it’s important to spend time learning about them. + Nick has heard of internal programs at VMware for those looking to pursue a career as a people leader / determine if it is right for them, and help in getting a placement in that type of role. - Yvette Edwards shared some details on this and other programs in Episode 202. + People who were hired during COVID times were certainly subject matter experts, and the expectation for them to come in and transform the business at all levels is high. But these folks despite understanding the business at a how level may not understand the internal business processes and policies or internal politics of the organization. - Anudeep suggests many will put more emphasis on upskilling people at all levels who have entered the organization in the last couple of years. And employees should take advantage of these benefits!
29:17 – Progression to VP* Anudeep owes a lot of his management and leadership success to his days at Thompson Reuters. He learned a great deal about the ins and outs of how technology organizations work. At some point the organization gets very large, which makes upward mobility harder. + When Anudeep left Thompson Reuters in 2009, it was about a 12 billion dollar business. This means management frameworks on how the business runs and how the business works were very different. + Anudeep was in a position where he needed to decide what he wanted to do. Increasingly running bigger teams or larger global teams was not as exciting to him. + He started to think about the next level where he could make a meaningful impact. + "You have to strive for those positions where you are increasingly walking into rooms where everybody knows more than what you do." – Anudeep Parhar - This could be people who run finance, HR, or some other function. + These experiences were exciting for Anudeep. He had a lot of good mentors and eventually decided to challenge himself. + If you want to be in this type of role, sometimes you have to look outside your current organization. It does not always mean that, but this is how it happened for Anudeep. He knew he had to go somewhere else and learn something else to have the type of impact he wanted. * Living in Minneapolis / St. Paul, it is a hub of health IT. Anudeep thought getting experience in this industry would be valuable, and that is how he got into Blue Cross. + This was a healthcare company that was also a non-profit (something different than Anudeep had experienced), and Anudeep wanted to learn how that sort of business worked (how it functions differently, drivers of the business, etc.). + This was an explicitly different job. Anudeep wanted to be out of development. He had done it for many years and wanted to take himself out for something he was very good at to learn (for example) how to architect large scale claim systems, how to build analytics systems that can decrease the cost of healthcare for providers, or how to build a better pricing or underwriting engine. + These things were very new to Anudeep. He would be able to work on solving a different industry problem with the same technology. + This was in the early days of digital transformation. Anudeep’s leadership at the time gave him a great opportunity to take a look at a new area and self-fund the things he wanted to do with technology. Doing this makes you start to become a lot more relevant. * Anudeep likes working for technology businesses and eventually came back to businesses that are a lot more technology focused. * In the move from senior director to VP, the expectations and span of control are different, but Anudeep wanted to be in his peer group, which is increasingly less technical. + He kept driving into newer positions in this way. * Anudeep was at an eCommerce company for a couple of years and learned a lot about how to take a public business private and what is really involved. + This is not something you get to do from a mid-level manager point of view. You have to be at the CEO’s table to be able to do that. * Anudeep was a CTO at Bloom Health (a late stage startup). + The expectations of the board and expectation of the senior leadership team are very different. + As CTO you’re expected to know the technology. But there are other functions. - Product management – how do you get out there in the market and understand what your customers want? - You become an evangelizer for what the company does using technical terms to share how your company will solve problems for other companies. + This was an interesting point of view because you become sort of the chief loudspeaker of the company as CTO. Anudeep loved this. He loved talking to partners, customers, and investor relations folks. * Nick mentions Anudeep must have learned a TON taking a public company private, much like Michael Dell did for his company as detailed in Play Nice but Win.
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Welcome to episode 207 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode Nick shares his experience going through two different interview processes over the last year.
Original Recording Date: 01-14-2023
Topics – A Personal Slant to the Career Foundations Series, Interview Process # 1 – External Company, Interview Process # 2 – An Internal Role, Resources Nick Leveraged1:02 – A Personal Slant to the Career Foundations Series* We are doing a series on the foundations of career progression. + In Episode 203 we talked about resumes, their structure, how to showcase your accomplishments, and how you can keep them current. + In Episode 204 we talked about what type of reflection needs to be done as before searching for jobs, places and methods to search for jobs, research needed for each job listing, applying for jobs, and ways you can let jobs come to you. + In Episode 205 we did a part 1 on job interviews. We talked through the goal of an interview, how to prepare, and some of the types of interviews such as HR screens and first interviews with a hiring manager. + In Episode 206 we continued discussions on interviews with the technical / team member screening process, executive screening, the process of an offer, and what happens if there are delays. * This week it gets personal. Nick wanted to share his experience going through two different interview processes over the last year – the processes, the steps in the processes, what he did to prepare for the experience, what he learned as a result, and how it might compare with / align to our previous discussions. * Before any of this happened… + Nick wasn’t really looking around for a new job. + Nick had not updated his resume since 2017. + From a LinkedIn standpoint, Nick had kept it pretty well up to date, trying to post there at least once per week (often times about the podcast or something career related).
2:19 – Interview Process # 1 – External Company* The first process was with a company outside Nick’s current employer. * The process started with a message from a recruiter stating she felt Nick would be a good fit for a specific job (a sales engineering job at another company). + Nick chose not to apply because it did not seem interesting, but he did ask the recruiter what that person liked about working for this specific company. The recruiter was kind enough to provide the answer, and Nick appreciated the person sharing. + Some time passed, and the same recruiter sent Nick a different job description. And it was something that wasn’t really on Nick’s radar as even a possibility. It was a role that was very much community facing, involved a technical specialty, and it would involve doing some very different things than Nick does today. - Nick does not think if he had seen this job posting that he would have considered himself qualified, and he’s not sure he would have considered applying. + Nick thought this role sounded pretty interesting and exciting, and as a result he was willing to take some time to learn more about the role. The first recruiter passed Nick on to a second recruiter to have a brief discussion (what we might call a recruiter screening). * The second recruiter was able to tell Nick more about the role and share some additional insight on the company. + Nick was able to learn about company benefits and some context about the role that might not be in the job description. + He was also able to ask some questions. When Nick asked the recruiter why she thought he might be a good fit for this specific role, she pointed to his experience on the podcast, feeling Nick would not have an issue going and talking with people out in the community. + It was one of those times where someone else saw relatable experience that Nick could not see. + During the conversation the recruiter asked what it would take to get Nick to this company were he to successfully go through the interview process. At that point he provided a compensation range (which the recruiter confirmed was realistic). This is a good checkpoint to ensure Nick would not be potentially going through the process and having a mismatch in expected compensation for the role. + Nick also mentioned he was not quite sure he wanted to apply just yet. Maybe sharing an expected compensation range despite not knowing if he was going to apply was his way of trying to short circuit the process if he did apply. + The recruiter mentioned she understood Nick was unsure about applying but said the hiring manager was interested in speaking with him. She suggested a 30 minute discussion with the hiring manager, and then Nick could decide if he wanted to apply. He agreed to speak to the hiring manager. * The next step was the call with the hiring manager. + There were two open positions under this hiring manager. - One was a community manager role similar to what Nic Tolstoshev described in Episode 62 and Episode 63. - The second was community facing and sort of an evangelist type role. It was very technical and would be a chance for Nick to get extremely deep in an area where he is more of a generalist today and learn a lot of new things. + The hiring manager asked Nick about his skills and the things he was interested in doing. + After about 7-10 minutes the hiring manager suggested Nick have a conversation with someone who had been working for him in one of the role to determine which role might fit Nick best. And then the hiring manager opened up the floor for questions. + If you had 20 minutes with someone just for questions, how many questions would you have ready? Nick filled up the entire rest of the meeting asking questions. + Nick was asking about what success looked like in these jobs in 6-12 months and what the metrics were to demonstrate somoene in the role was doing a good job. He asked questions about the hiring manager and the company. + It was a good conversation. Since the hiring manager recommended Nick speak to a member of the team, Nick was ok with proceeding to that step next. + At this point Nick still had not applied for a job at this company. Keep that in mind. * The next step was what we might call a team member screening. + The team member Nick spoke to was doing the second open position mentioned above (the community facing evangelist type role). + Nick was able to ask a number of questions about what this person did day to day, what drew him to it, what he likes about the company, and how he thought about his career. + It was a great conversation, and Nick really enjoyed meeting this person. + After that conversation was over, Nick didn’t really know what would happen next. He still had not applied for anything. + Then some time passed. Nick was at a community event to give a presentation, and it just so happened the hiring manager Nick had previously spoken to was at this event. Nick received an e-mail from the recruiter that the hiring manager wanted to meet with him in person. * The next step was meeting with the hiring manager in person at a community event. + Nick met with the hiring manager for about an hour that day. + The hiring manager asked Nick some questions about how he might explain certain things. + Nick asked things like things expected in a regular 1-1, how the manager managed his organization (down and up), perception of a specific business unit inside the company from the perspective of other business units. + By the end of the hour, the hiring manager told Nick he wanted to work something out for Nick to come and work for him. + Nick didn’t quite know this would be the outcome of the conversation. But he was up front and honest, communicating that he wasn’t sure he was ready to leave VMware. + After that first conversation with the hiring manager Nick realized most of his questions were geared toward finding out whether the person on the other end of the phone was a great leader. Nick didn’t write it down as something he needed in a new role, but he learned one of the things he needs is, if given any kind of choice in the matter, to work for a great leader. - Nick shared this need with the hiring manager and that he was still trying to figure out if the hiring manager was that next great leader for which Nick wanted to work. Nick did not mean this to be offensive or anything like that. - Then the hiring manager did something really interesting which Nick did not expect. The hiring manager called a member of his team at the event and said Nick was going to come talk to her about what she does and what it was like working for the hiring manager. The hiring manager asked Nick to ask this member of the team any questions he wanted. * Nick met with a member of the team under the hiring manager in person and then via phone call. + He was only able to meet with the team member the hiring manager had called for a few minutes in person, but they scheduled a follow up remote discussion for the next week. + This team member shared what she did for the company with Nick and how they might work together if Nick got the job / decided to take the job. + Nick asked her about the hiring manager. She had worked for him at a previous company and really liked him and his style. Others on her team had worked for this hiring manager at a previous company. The team member shared that the hiring manager was very good at advocating for his team up the chain and keeping them out of internal political battles. * The recruiter then wanted to know how things went meeting the hiring manager in person. + The recruiter told Nick that they would love to make him and offer and were very interested in having him come onboard. + At this point Nick was blown away and extremely humbled. He never applied, and they wanted to hire them. + Maybe this was a case of letting the job come to you? + Nick had to figure out at this point if it was something he really wanted to do. He told the recruiter he still wasn’t sure if he wanted to walk away from VMware after almost 5 years. + At this point he told the recruiter he did not want her to make him an offer unless he would strongly consider taking it and asked for some time to decide. + Nick thought about it, let his mind wander on it, compared pros and cons, things different about the new role that he liked / did not like, and the overall impact to his family wife and daughter), etc. He needed to take all the things into consideration. + Nick mentioned asking your family about pros and cons of a new job is a good idea. Nick’s wife pointed out that his daughter had just started middle school, was still getting used to the structure and requirements of it, and would need his help to adjust and excel. Too much travel could end up being a deterrent to providing the right level of support. * The last step was an e-mail instead of a call, and it was after Nick had reached a decision. + Nick said he did not want them to make him an offer at this time. He decided he was not ready to leave VMware. + Thinking back to the Yvette Edwards episodes (Episode 201 and Episode 202), it was not the right time. + Nick thanked the people who were involved in the hiring process who had spoken to him and spend time with him. He left the door open, of course. These were all incredible people, and maybe there is some way to work with them in some form or fashion in the future (even if not at the same company). Nick hopes people found it valuable meeting him just as he found it valuable meeting them. * Lessons learned from this process + Nick learned that he needs a great leader, and he thinks that hiring manager was a great leader. It took a little time to figure this out only through asking lots of questions and talking to other members of the team that worked with and for this manager (getting the holistic context). - Remember Evan Oldford’s advice from Episode 173 to "find that great manager." + Nick was honest and up front about where he was in the process with the hiring team and wasn’t in it to play games. + You don’t always know what you might be qualified to do. In this case he was not able to see his own. The recruiters saw it, and the hiring manager and others did too. In this process, it was a blind spot for Nick (seeing the applicable relatable experience).
16:02 – Interview Process # 2 – An Internal Role* This was a job inside VMware doing something different than what Nick does today (solution engineering). * In the first process Nick was contacted by someone else. In the second process Nick saw something interesting and decided to take action. * Remember also that at no point in the first process did Nick have to submit a resume. He had LinkedIn updated and proof of work out there (podcasts, blogs, etc.). * In this process, somoene posted a job description in some internal chat channels, and Nick happened to see it. + Nick knew who the person who posted it was part of some of the same programs internally (like CTOA Ambassadors) and had no issues reaching out to that person to ask some questions. + The person who posted the job was part of the team of people doing that job today. + Nick asked questions via chat and received some examples of what the job really entailed, communicating that he was thinking about applying. * Nick wanted to learn even more about the role and had a phone call with a different member of the team (different from the person who posted the job internally) who Nick knew from the CTO Ambassador Program. + This person met with Nick after work hours one day, sharing how he got into that role, what it was and was not, what he liked about it, and that it took him a little time to get the job. This person really enjoyed the ability to work on a number of different things. + The job in question was a bit of a specialist overlay. Nick is a technical generalist across the VMware portfolio today. The job was a specialist solution engineer in a way but would also involve working closely with teams building early stage products. The focus would be on trying to make those products better and providing education to other teams within the company on product capabilities and the problems these products solve. + Like the role from the first process, this one required more of a technical focus and specialty (a common pattern). + During the call with this team member, Nick brought up the job level in the posting being 1 level higher than he is today, which means getting the job would be a promotion and lateral move. The team member Nick spoke with was not sure and encouraged him to ask the hiring manager or somoene else to get clarity on whether Nick would even be eligible to apply. * Nick thought about it a little bit more but wanted to make sure his name was in the hat for the position. And this meant updating the resume. Nick’s was not up to date (5 years old). + The good news is Nick was documenting his work along the way. He tries to update his OneNote weekly with some sort of accomplishment even if it’s small, which provides the detail needed to write or rewrite a resume. This is the intent and not something that always happens. + If he had not updated the resume in 5 years and had also not been tracking accomplishments it would have been way harder to start from ground zero. + The resume updates still required a time commitment. It wasn’t as simple as upload and click. - Don’t forget our advice, even if your resume is up to date, to customize the resume for each job application (update experience and skills sections based on job requirements). + After updating the resume and tailoring it to the job description and requirements, Nick had a friend inside VMware review the resume and provide some feedback before submitting. + Nick went ahead and submitted the updating resume to get his name in the hat. * Because of the job level discrepancy Nick went ahead and reached out to the recruiter to mention it and ask for a meeting to address questions. + The recruiter had a call with Nick for about 30 minutes and had already looked at his resume. + The recruiter gave Nick some good feedback on resume structure. He liked the skills section and shared that the role was deeply technical, suggesting Nick add anything else that might demonstrate that expertise to the resume if he had it. It was extremely kind of the recruiter to provide this feedback. + During that conversation, the recruiter shared a compensation range for the position and some idea of what the hiring process might be like (a couple of team member interviews, a stakeholder panel, call with the hiring manager, and maybe one more interview). + In light of this comment, Nick made a couple of additional resume tweaks and send the updated resume to the recruiter which was then passed on to the hiring team. * After some time passed, Nick received an e-mail from the recruiter about scheduling 2 interviews with members of the hiring team. + Nick was given some background on the expectations for each interview and guidance on what to be prepared to discuss. + One of the interviews was more demonstrating company values and technical expertise. + The other interview was more about technical fit and team fit. + The recruiter encouraged Nick to reach out if he had additional questions about the expectations of these interviews, and Nick did ask some clarifying questions to ensure he would be prepared. + To prepare, Nick spent time thinking about the stories he wanted to share which fit the expectation for the discussions. - He made notes to help prepare himself and continued to review them before the interviews. - He reviewed the job description again. - He made sure to review his resume. - Nick wanted to ensure he prepared stories that were most relevant, most impactful, and can best answer the questions people have. * Team member screen # 1 + Nick had never met the interviewer before this discussion. + These discussions usually start with the interviewer asking some questions of the candidate. Nick was asked about what he does today and what made him interested in the role. + This team member had come to the company through an acquisition, and Nick was able to learn more about her career during the discussion. + Nick shared technologies he had been talking about most with his customers to solve their biggest challenges. + It was a very good conversation, and Nick appreciated the time. The interviewer let him know if he had questions about the role or the team he could contact her to ask. + Keep in mind…if somoene leaves the door open to ask questions after the fact, don’t abuse that privilege. Save questions about your status in the hiring process for the recruiter. Sending questions about the role, the team, or the company as a follow up with an interviewer should be ok. + Nick remembers getting asked questions about how he would convince product teams to do something without role power. This goes back to the discussions with David Babbitt about influence without role power. - Check out Episode 196 specifically for more details and Episode 195 and Episode 197 to hear David’s full story. * Team member screen # 2 happened within a few days of the first one. + This was with a different team member (another Nick had never met). + Nick reviewed the job description and his resume but made some different notes for this interview since expectations were a little different. + The first time this interview happened, Nick’s interviewer never showed up (which he had never experienced). - After about 10 minutes, Nick reached out to the interview to see if the time still worked and to see it that person was ok. - Eventually the interview time slot had come and gone. Nick reached out to the recruiter to let them know the interviewer never showed up. - The interviewer did message Nick back stating he was ok and had unfortunately missed the meeting. So the interview was rescheduled. + Just like the first interview, this was another good conversation. The interviewer had questions for Nick, of course, but did something Nick did not expect. After asking a few questions, the interviewer asked "is there anything you would like to share with me?" + This question has some interesting impacts. The interviewer was telling Nick that he was ready to listen to whatever he wanted to share. Also, it put the onus on Nick to share the highest priority items / most impactful items for this discussion and articulate them well. (all based on what the interviewer was looking to hear). + Nick had notes and was prepared to share stories, but the way this was asked suddenly made it challenging to answer in the moment. Nick loves what the interviewer did here and will probably never forget it. + The interviewer had more questions of Nick after this and Nick had time to ask questions of the interviewer. The discussion even went past the 30 minute time limit. * After both interviews were over, some time passed. The recruiter got back to Nick and said the hiring team decided to go with a different candidate this time. + The recruiter did send some good feedback from those who had interviewed Nick during the process, which he was grateful to receive. + The feedback was positive, the team liked Nick, and they would encourage me to apply for open positions on this team in the future. * Reflecting on this interview process + Of course when things don’t work out on something you were excited about, you can get bummed. But Nick has a job he really likes. It just so happened that the role he applied for seemed a bit more interesting at the time. It was a chance to do something different, and he didn’t get it. + Taking a process over outcomes mindset here (from Episode 19)… - Nick feels like he did decent during the interviews and might rate himself a B+ overall. - He definitely was not ready for the question in the second interview and feels we always wish we could do better. - He received feedback from the recruiter and from the two people who had interviewed him. - In the second interview Nick was asked what his technical specialty is. Nick is a technical generalist today in what he does and was also a generalist during his time in systems administration. He finds it very hard to answer that question. Nick thinks his specialty may lie in being a generalist much like Stephanie Wong shared in Episode 178. After looking at the content Nick had put on his blog, he was able to suggest what his specialty is and send it to the interviewer as a follow up. It’s still a hard question to answer. * Lessons learned + Nick made some great connections inside the company through this process and feels he has built rapport with people who he could contact for help if need be. The interview process can build your personal network. + Nick feels moving from generalist to specialist can be tough. Despite being a generalist inside VMware today some might consider that a specialty compared to being a systems administrator. Nick was applying for something that was more of a specialty within the VMware product set. + When applying for a specialized role, really think about things that show evidence of this specialty (proof of work, projects you have worked on, heavy interest and attention to it, etc.). + If we reflect on it, there are probably areas where we naturally spend more time in than others (even the generalist). Nick does not think he had taken enough time to reflect on this. + Don’t wait until you want to apply for a job to update your resume. Nick owns the fact that he had to do this before he could apply. Oops. + The right time to apply for something that looks really exciting is right now. Even a conversation to learn more about something does not mean you have agreed to take the job. - If it’s exciting enough to you it will be a priority.
31:48 – Resources Nick Leveraged* The second process Nick went through was beginning as the first one was nearing the end (a little overlap). * Through all of this Nick continued his morning pages practice. It sort of became an evening pages routine to dump out his brain. * Nick listened to a number of episodes of [Real Job Talk] (https://realjobtalk.com/) with Liz Bronson and Kat Troyer in addition to past episodes from the Nerd Journey catalogue. * Nick had a lot of conversations with John White about this process. * Nick spoke to community members, reaching out to people who had worked at the external company to pick their brains. * Nick spoke with mentors within VMware and beyond. Dale McKay has been mentoring Nick for a while now and shared this thought:
+ The opportunities did sound exciting (both of them), but he encouraged Nick to think about what would happen if neither one worked out.
+ Dale encouraged Nick to pay very close attention to his emotions, how he was feeling about the work he does in his current role to be on guard against feelings of bitterness and cynicism (which would 100% lead to a lack of engagement and leaving the company). Nick was encouraged to be mindful and watchful of these thoughts and feelings and found himself in this exact situation (neither job worked out).
+ Nick doesn’t feel like at any point he got bitter or felt entitled to something. He decided to focus effort in other areas. He didn’t have to jump right on chasing something new but understood there were now some options that maybe he had not considered.
+ It sounds like we might need an episode 100% dedicated to mentors!
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It’s likely a consideration point during these processes on if you tell your boss about it and when you tell your boss.
- Nick has a good relationship with his boss and told him about both job opportunities.
- Nick was encouraged to really think about what excited him about the jobs in question and especially in the first case, since he didn’t apply, what kept him wanting to learn more information.
- The boss would support whatever Nick needed to do.
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If you are going to go through interview processes like this, make sure you don’t have one foot out the door already!
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Assuming you have a job while going through the interview process, continue to do your job well. If you are applying for a job internally and not doing a good job in your current role, it probably will not be looked upon kindly (unless you’re in some kind of severe mismatch situation where you cannot succeed).
- You can still chase something new without giving up on the role you’re in. You can still ensure you’re doing a great job in your daily work.
- Nick had a number of conversations with his wife about all this. She saw some things he could not see and had a different perspective on it all.
- There was a lot of prayer and soul searching with Nick wondering about whether these roles were right for him or not right for him (probably thinking way too much about both jobs).
- For anyone out there that helped Nick in some way during this process who was not mentioned by name, you know who you are. He really appreciates you taking the time!
- If this conversation has been helpful, please go out and rate the show 5 stars and share it with someone!
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 206 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we discuss what to expect in other types of interviews like a technical screen, a team screen, an executive screen, the job offer process, and what to do if you experience delays after the interview process concludes.
Original Recording Date: 12-18-2022
Topics – Continuing the Career Foundations Series, Understanding the Interview Process, Team Member Screening / Technical Screening, Executive Screening Interview, After the Interview Process is Over, The Process of an Offer, Delays after Interviews are Over and A Focus on Process0:56 – Continuing the Career Foundations Series* We are doing a series on the foundations of career progression. + In Episode 203 we talked about resumes, their structure, how to showcase your accomplishments, and how you can keep them current. + In Episode 204 we talked about what type of reflection needs to be done as before searching for jobs, places and methods to search for jobs, research needed for each job listing, applying for jobs, and ways you can let jobs come to you. + Last week in Episode 205 we did a part 1 on job interviews. We talked through the goal of an interview, how to prepare, and some of the types of interviews such as HR screens and first interviews with a hiring manager.
1:45 – Understanding the Interview Process* The HR person or first person you speak to at the company you’re interviewing with should communicate to you what the hiring process looks like (number of rounds, etc.). + The hiring manager is NOT always the first touch after the HR screen. Sometimes it’s a member of the team you would be joining. + John says at Google Cloud the hiring manager is the last person you talk to in the hiring process. You would first talk to a recruiter and do a screening, but after that the formal process is a general cognitive ability interview, a general role related knowledge interview, a Googliness or leadership interview, and a possible presentation interview to a group of mock customers (especially if you are customer facing like John is). After all of this they decide if you can be hired or not. After that you get shopped to a hiring manager. + If the first person you speak to does not explain what the interview process looks like, make sure you ask! + You should also get some information funneled to you regarding what to expect in each round of interviews (a technical interview, a cultural fit interview, etc.). This allows you to better prepare your thoughts and the right stories to highlight. + Competent organizations should provide you with information on what each interview in the process is going to cover and maybe even how to prepare for it.
4:07 – Team Member Screening / Technical Screening* This is usually conducted by members of a team you would be joining. * Some organizations will have you do a technical interview where team members are trying to evaluate your technical abilities in a specific area. + If you’re interviewing for a role as infrastructure architect, expect questions about infrastructure architecture. Your interviewer(s) will have questions that someone with the requisite job experience would be able to answer very cleanly and clearly. + You don’t need to expect to get 100% of the answers, but you should be prepared. + Think about approaching a technical screen in a similar way toa certification exam. + Consider the technical level that is appropriate for the role to which you are applying (i.e. kind of high level, super technical, etc.). If you’re applying for the role of principal architect for an organization, maybe you should be looking at some typical high level architectures for that organization size, the type of work the organization does, etc. + When preparing for interviews, even if not as prepared as you would like to be, getting a good night’s sleep could potentially help you fill the gap. It would be better to be well rested and less prepared than fully prepared and running on 4 hours’ sleep. Know yourself and how much sleep you need. If you need 10 hours of sleep to operate at peak performance, block the time on your calendar, and create a reverse timeline so you can achieve your goal of getting the 10 hours of sleep. * Reiterating from last week, your goals in this process are twofold: + Convince the person interviewing you that you are appropriate for (or maybe even their preferred choice for) this role. + You are trying to understand whether this is an organization where you want to work. Even if it’s a technical interview with someone quizzing you, remember you are talking to a member of the team you would be joining. Be sure to ask questions at the end of / where appropriate in the discussion! - It is entirely appropriate to ask what the team culture is like, how often the team meets as a team, what it’s like to work for the manager / their management style, how the manager onboards new members, how many people have joined the team in recent months (indicator of team growth / turnover), etc. - What is a 1-1 with your manager like? - What kinds of things does your manager generally want to know? - Is it typical for team members to do a technical screen, or are those normally done by the manager? That will tell you if the manager is more technical or perhaps non-technical. Maybe team members rotate through and each do technical interviews, and in 6 months you would need to be able to conduct one on your own. - How does the team keep up to date with technology? Does the company provide paid training, or do team members need to fund all of that on their own? - Keep asking what people like about working at the company and if they have been there a while, what made them stay for so long. It’s interesting to triangulate this across people at different levels and in different job roles. + It is easier to get information like the above when being interviewed by a potential team member and the discussion is more focused on going over your resume. You can share stories from your background that demonstrate your qualifications, ask questions that reference the job listing, and get feedback. You can also ask if the requirements in the job listing are in the correct order of importance from the interviewer’s perspective. * You can ask some of the previous suggested questions like what somoene needs to be effective in the role, what someone would work on if hired today, what the person would like to see in 6-12 months to consider it a successful hire / recommendation to hire, etc. Even if you are not talking to the hiring manager these are still great questions to ask. + Your willingness to ask these types of questions will speak to your seniority. + Hopefully your interviewer is providing some time for you to ask questions. If that is not provided to you and you’re toward the end of the time block, consider interrupting to ask them then or ask for more time with the person specifically for questions. The person may be willing to answer questions via e-mail after the meeting.
12:45 – Executive Screening Interview* John’s experience, before engaging in this type of screening you have likely spoken to a recruiter, the hiring manager, had a technical screen, and maybe even met with people in other job roles who are not directly on the team you would be joining but work with that team. * The hiring manager may want you to speak with one of their leaders (a very positive thing). This is a strong buying signal and may indicate a final rubber stamp / approval to hire you. * Nick remembers meeting with a director level peer of his boss with a director title when going through the interview process at VMware for a pre-sales technical engineering role. But he has not been through the exact scenario here (meeting with a potential boss’s boss in the interview process). + The manager of a sales team is peered with the manager as a sales team since sales engineering works in parallel with sales but may not have a "sales manager" title (could be head of sales, director of sales, VP of sales, etc.). + The scenario Nick describes is still a very good sign you’re close to the end of the hiring process since it’s a screening with a manager of a group of people he would be working closely with.
15:45 – After the Interview Process is Over* By the time you reach the end of the process, you should have completed your evaluation on whether this is somewhere you want to work. In this way when the organization with which you have been interviewing is ready to speak about a job offer, you are 100% on board. + If you are not 100% on board and need to continue the evaluation once the potential employer wants to talk about a job offer, this is the point at which you need to ask for the things you still need to make a decision. Do it before talking about a job offer. + John has been in a situation like this when interviewing for a sales engineering role. He asked to speak to the salesperson he would be working with if he got the role. - For a request like this, it is possible you would only be able to meet with the sales manager because the salesperson has yet to be hired. Or, they might tell you they don’t know which team you would work on (i.e. not being hired to partner with a specific person). - This is additional information to help you make a decision. + Maybe you don’t have a full cultural picture and you want to talk to another team member and ask further questions. Perhaps you ran out of time during the team member screen / technical interview and still need to ask these questions. + This part would need to happen relatively quickly because the potential employer will want to know if you are a yes or no so that they know how to move forward (i.e. present you with the offer or look at more candidates). Be sure to block time to allow this to happen.
17:48 – The Process of an Offer* You likely will not get a written offer unless they know you are a yes. The offer normally comes verbally first (i.e. discuss before it comes in writing). A verbal offer will contain: + The compensation package – if adjustments need to be made here, the time to negotiate is before the formal written (and usually electronic) offer is made. Make sure you don’t get to the point of formal written offer without talking compensation. - Evaluate benefit amounts for dental / medical, the retirement plan (401K and matching policy, etc.), reimbursement for phone or internet expenses, support for speaking at technical community events like VMUG, etc. - If your salary is $10,000 more on this offer but the medical benefits are such that it would cost you more than $10,000 with this new employer, you are taking a pay cut! - When John moved from VMware to Google Cloud he had to factor in moving from a company with unlimited vacation to one with a specific vacation allotment. It was a consideration point.
20:05 – Delays after Interviews are Over and A Focus on Process* As a candidate, you may experience delays after the interview process is over. * You may have come in second or third. Probably anyone who has made it to the finals is appropriate to be hired, and those conducting the interview process have ranked candidates in order of preference. + The person in first place is likely evaluating the compensation package and weighing whether they want to accept an offer as described above. + You may be on ice just in case the person in first place does not accept the offer. + The person in first place may have said they don’t want an offer. * If you’re not going to take an offer, don’t ask someone to present the written offer to you. It wastes that person’s time. + If recruiters are contacting you, a couple of times per year, take some calls to keep your interview process knowledge fresh and to be aware of what is out there as a progression opportunity for you. + At the urging of a former colleague, John went through an interview process to learn the hiring organization wanted specific technical skills which were for him pretty rusty (would have taken a long time to get back up to speed in certain areas). He decided that probably was not the right role for him. + There was another instance where John opted out of a process after reaching the finals. He couldn’t get his head around the value proposition of the product this company was selling. Despite the recruiter telling him how much money he could make, John opted out. + It’s hard to say no, but if you need to, you need to. * Another reason for potential delays is problems with the funding of the position. + It could have been pulled after the interviews finished. + If delays like this happen, what you want from the recruiter or your main point of contact is frequent updates and when they might have some answers. * If they just go silent on you, that is indicative of how the organization is run. If you follow up multiple times over the course of several days with no response, it may be indicative of a greater problem (i.e. could mold the opinion in your mind that this is how they treat potential employees). + Even a response that you didn’t make it, were not qualified, or it is a straight up no…that would be something. It would keep people’s minds from wandering. No response is wicked to anxieties people have when anticipating a response. + If your point of contact at the company is on vacation, there should be someone acting as a backup for hires in flight that can help you in their absence. + Maybe you leave a review of the process on Glassdoor. You have no other way to judge the organization except how they are treating you. You can go on Glassdoor, state the name of the company, how long you invested in the process, and the name of the recruiter. You are warning someone else going through the process to be careful how much time and effort they invest and what might happen as a result. People may want to qualify the organization in or out based on this. * If you know people at the organization as you are going through the interview process who are willing to speak to you, they can provide guidance on what may be happening at the organization in question. + Maybe they know, for example, that the recruiter you were working with was part of a 3rd party the company has just fired. It’s information you likely would not have access to without an internal contact. + Remember it’s ok to explain the situation to someone you know, but you should not be holding that person accountable for what happened (since that person is not the recruiter). Approach the conversation as a way to potentially get additional context. * We’re suggesting that even if you were ghosted we should come together as a community and post public reviews that accurately depict what happened when candidates are treated this way. * There’s no one magical job that is the best you could ever have. There are just possible jobs. + There’s not one manager, one company, or one position. There is a spectrum of each of these you could have. This references Episode 19 and dreaming in bands. + Certainly everyone who enters this process wants to win and get the job. + Hopefully even if you don’t you can recognize that you did something better than the last time you went through this process. + Consider whether there was some feedback you received along the way that was helpful and would allow you to improve for next time. + Maybe you chronicled your experience in the process and realized you told a specific story better this time compared to the last time. That’s a bright spot. + You’re trying to focus on the process over the outcome even though you really want the outcome. No one will blame you for being bummed out after not getting a job, but hopefully you can become better through the experience (even if not the right fit, not the right company). + Outcomes are things we cannot control. Things that can be controlled are the way we execute, and it’s not just on a project or a sales campaign. This is including participation in the interview process. - Maybe you interviewed really well this time and felt much better during this round of interviews than the last time you interviewed. Maybe you set proper expectations throughout to ensure you knew the process well. - If you can tie how you feel to your process and not the outcome, in the long run you will be much better off.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 205 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we discuss previous episodes on job interviews, the goal of an interview and some types of interviews like HR screening and first call with a hiring manager.
Original Recording Date: 12-18-2022
Topics – A Focus on Interviews, Your Goal When Asked To Interview, Types of Interviews – HR Screening, Initial Call with the Hiring Manager1:37 – A Focus on Interviews* Today we’re talking about job interviews. This is the third episode in our series on the fundamentals of career progression. This episode was recorded during a time with news of company layoffs, and it is still an incredibly hot job market. + In Episode 203 we talked about resumes, their structure, how to showcase your accomplishments, and how you can keep them current. + In Episode 204 we talked about what type of reflection needs to be done as before searching for jobs, places and methods to search for jobs, research needed for each job listing, applying for jobs, and ways you can let jobs come to you. * This episode presupposes that you have applied for a job or been approached to apply for a position and are now either being contacted for a first interview or are currently going through the interview process. * For previous episodes focusing on interviews, check out: + Episode 2 – Different Types of Phone Interviews + Episode 9 – Blowing an Interview and Dressing for an Interview - This episode contains Nick’s favorite John White rant ever. + Episode 11 – Questions to Ask in an Interview + Episode 15 – Interview Myths + Episode 16 – Reasons Not to Pursue a Career Opportunity Part 1/2 Before Applying + Episode 17 – Reasons Not to Pursue a Career Opportunity Part 2/2 During Interviews and After the Offer + Episode 53 through Episode 57 – Unexpected Career Opportunities Series + Episode 66 and Episode 67 detail John’s move to Google Cloud and touch on the interview processes involved. - As of Episode 200, Episode 66 was the most downloaded Nerd Journey episode of all time! + Episode 81 – The Joy of Interviewing with Manny Sidhu (A Part 2 of 2) + Episode 84 – Management Interviews and Transitions with Brad Pinkston (a Part 2 of 2) + Episode 122 – Storytelling in Interviews with Brianna Blacet (a Part 2 of 2) + Episode 192 – Mindfulness in Interviews with Brett Hill (a Part 2 of 2) * To this point we lacked a central repository for discussions on interviews so listeners can dig in further on the topic in other episodes. Should we do another more recent roundup on the topic of interviewing, we will update show notes in this episode and point you there. * Today’s structure will focus on discussing the philosophy behind the interview process – the goal when you are asked to interview / what your goal should be, different types of interviews and what to prepare for, and what to do after the interview process is over and preparations you should make.
7:31 – Your Goal When Asked To Interview* Warning – people often overcomplicate and overthink this! * Your goal should be twofold + Overall the long-term goal when going through the process is to get to an offer + The short term goal is to make it to the next round of interviews (i.e. convince the interviewer to pass you on to the next round) + As you go through the process, you want to present the version of yourself that is tuned to the problems the organization at which you are interviewing is trying to solve by making a hire. + The interview process is a chance to evaluate the company. Do you actually want to work for this company, work on this team, or work for this manager? * Nick has heard of an interesting approach to the interview process that may help you. + Play to win, but if you lose, you have made a number of great personal connections along the way. + John makes it a point when interviewing at a company to keep track of the people he’s talking to so he can connect with them on LinkedIn. Generally he likes to connect with the people on LinkedIn and thank them for their time during the process. + Even if you do not get the job offer, you are going to learn something by going through the interview process. * One of the articles we have previously reviewed is – Here’s the #1 way people blow a job interview (Moneyish). Despite the clickbait like title, this article covers multiple ways people blow job interviews, such as… + Arriving late to an interview (the number one way) + Whining + Showing a lack of preparation + Bad mouthing a former boss + Bad mouthing a former company + Grammar or spelling mistakes on a cover letter + Poor grammar in an interview + Having unrealistic compensation requirements + Being underqualified + Answering questions incorrectly * Many of the points listed from the article above highlight an inability to communicate effectively. + Badmouthing is bad taste. It is always more effective to be graceful. + If pressed to give more detail about why you chose to leave a company is to be positive and focus on your needs. Here’s an example John gave: - "One of the things I have learned about myself is that I need X to feel safe and Y to succeed." You can stop there or add that the need was not being met in other environments. + In regard to communication, Nick is reminded of an episode with Scott Lowe (Episode 152) where we discuss writing as a way to make you a better communicator. - So many guests have mentioned writing as something they want to do well and something they practice to improve their communication. + John mentions effective communication is a practice and a process. You will never achieve perfection, but you can bias yourself toward success by doing it over and over again (and have people check it for you). - Ask others for constructive feedback on a presentation you’re developing, something you are writing, etc. to see if it is clearly communicating what you want (i.e. your goals, etc.). Then continue to work on it. - When you reach a higher stakes situation like an interview, you can rely on this practice and experience to help you (i.e. might not have to think so much about it in the situation). * From a preparation standpoint, Nick takes that to mean prepare some things you would like to know about the person interviewing you. + You need to think about these in advance because you likely will not be able to think of everything on the spot. Make some notes in advance. + There will be information you want to extract from an interviewer about the organization, the team, the manager, company culture, how employees are treated, the organization’s goals, whether all of this aligns with your goals and values, etc. + Don’t forget to go back and review your resume and the job listing before going into an interview. You need to know each of them well. - Make sure you’re reviewing the version of the resume you submitted for the company in question. This may mean you need to have different stories ready for interviewers compared to a different resume submission / job application. - When you answer questions during an interview you can then point back to experiences listed on your resume. * Another article we’ve referenced is 5 Myths About Interviews You’ll Want to Stop Believing from the Washington Post. The Washington Post has a good jobs and careers section that John likes to read regularly. The myths discussed in the article are as follows: + Your Interviewer Is Completely Prepared + Interview Questions Have Correct and Incorrect Answers + Let the Interviewer Ask All the Questions + The Most Qualified Candidate Gets The Job Every Time + Thank You Notes Are No Longer Required - Nick advises the goal is not to just send a thank you note to send it. You need to actually mean it and appreciate the time someone invested in speaking to you. + Worried about how to dress? Just ask the Recruiter during a phone screen.
16:33 – Types of Interviews* HR Screening + People don’t often realize this is an interview. + Many companies have recruiter roles (possibly inside a human resources or people operations department of an organization), and the people working in these roles work to screen a large list of candidates and qualify them in or out of the pool of candidates that need to be passed along further into the hiring process. + This person is going to screen you on experience and appropriateness for the job, skills you have, seniority level, etc. + On a screening call, be able to speak to skills and experience that demonstrate your seniority level with stories from your resume such as the scale of projects you’ve worked, how those experiences relate to desired skills from the job listing, etc. + Usually the requirements in a job listing are in the order of importance to the employer (first in the list is most important, etc.). With a limited amount of time, you probably want to be prepared to address the items from top to bottom. + This is also a good time to ask clarifying questions about the job listing if something is unclear. For example, what does 20% travel mean to this organization? Is that traveling every Friday, being gone every 5th week, etc.? + Many people have questions about addressing salary. - John says his bias here is that he feels fairly secure in his ability to find a new position should his be unexpectedly terminated or he needed to quit. As a result John feels comfortable stating his salary requirements up front. - John thinks it is very fair to share the minimum salary you would need to consider changing jobs or joining this new organization. You can share this without the fear that the organization thinks this is the maximum amount a company would ever need to offer you. - If you say something like, "I really can’t change for less than $100,000" it does not mean all a company needs to do is to offer you $100,000 to make the change. You’re saying that you can’t really even consider anything less than $100,000. If a company cannot get to at least that threshold, they may need to look at other candidates. - You don’t want to find out at the end of the process (i.e. getting the offer) that the position does not meet your minimum salary requirements because it has wasted your time as well as that of others. - Nick says there is nothing wrong with asking a recruiter about the pay range to expect for the position to ensure no one’s time is wasted. - Be sure to check out the Real Job Talk podcast as they may have episodes on this specific topic. They each have experience in recruitment and would be considered a specialized resource. + Be prepared to cover your resume, job requirements, the day-to-day work, and how you would approach it (with stories ready). You’re trying to figure out if this is something you want and trying to get to the next step. + There are some different scenarios in which the recruiter is working with the company looking for somoene to hire. - Internal recruiting resource (employed by the company wanting to make a hire) – probably has a bonus structure based on successful placements but may not be leveraged as much as contract recruiters - Contract recruiter – not a full time employee of the company (just a contractor),likely a base salary given to this person with variable compensation dependent upon successful candidate placements - 3rd party external recruiting company – seeks to provide the organization with qualified candidates and makes a percentage of the candidate’s salary as compensation, likely not compensated until a candidate is successfully placed (hired) + Working with a 3rd party recruitment service may indicate a company is not large enough to merit an in-house resource for recruitment (whether internal full time employee or contractor). It could be a company in startup mode, for example. + Another episode to check out and reference would be Episode 174 with Dominique Top. She was a recruiter for DevOps roles at one point.
25:12 – Initial Call with the Hiring Manager* You might go straight to this call depending on the company or may get passed on to the hiring manager after a screening call with a recruiter. * Make sure you prepare!
+ Know the job listing.
+ Have a story you can tell about each potential requirement or what the daily activities are.
+ We encourage saving a copy of the job listing. If the listing has already disappeared and you do not have it, you may want to try to find a similar job listing.
+ Make sure you have good answers for some of the top interview questions in your job are. These are more generic questions:
- How would you address conflicting time requirements?
- How would you handle conflicting ideas on how to address a technical issue?
- How would you address a conflict in work style between you and a colleague?
- What is leading you to consider changing jobs?
- Think about some of the things that are specific to your role and how these questions might be tailored to fit that role.
* If you were interviewing for a sales engineering role, for example, the question about conflicting time requirements might be something about how you would handle supporting two different salespeople who schedule you to help them at the same time on the same day. For an IT operations position the question may be about how to decide which department meeting to join when you have a scheduling conflict.
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Think also about questions you might need answered during this process. Companies need to see that you are also evaluating them. Check out [10 (More) Questions to Ask at the End of an Interview to Stand Out](https://jobs.washingtonpost.com/article/10-more-questions-to-ask-at-the-end-of-an-interview-to-stand-out/
- Nick’s favorite question in the article is "what do you like about working here?"
- Nick likes asking recruiters a form of this question (assuming they are internal employees of the company doing the hiring). "What made you want to work for this company?" Sometimes the answers come with really interesting stories.
- Nick suggests asking hiring managers what made them want to go into people leadership.
- Ask the hiring manager what a typical 1-1 would be like, the types of things that would be discussed during a 1-1, the things they would want to know during a 1-1, how frequent 1-1s are, what team meetings are like, etc.
- These are the types of questions indicate you are experienced and want to know if this person is the type of manager you would want to work for, if the organization is a place you could see yourself working, etc.
- You might also want to ask about career conversations.
- What percentage of the 1-1s would be dedicated to career advancement / me getting better at the role or progressing within the organization?
- Is there a technical career path available if my next step is not going to be people leadership?"
- John likes these questions:
- What qualities would a person need to succeed in this position?
- Can you give me an example of what I would be working on if I started tomorrow?
- What would I need to be doing 6-12 months from now for you to consider me a successful hire? What does success for me look like 6-12 months down the road?
- Questions that speak to stability, growth, dynamism
- How often do you expect the responsibilities of this position to change?
- What challenges are you facing as a company or division right now?
- Do you expect to make additional hires in the next few months?
- If 70% the team responsibilities turn over ever 6 months, maybe that’s not fine.
- If you’re interviewing at a hypergrowth startup, for example, it could be a new company every quarter. Go back and listen to Episode 166 and Episode 167 with Andrew Miller for more on this.
- The first call after speaking with a recruiter / having the initial screen is not always with a hiring manager. Tune in next week for more details!
- Next week we will complete the discussion on types of technical interviews and talk about what you should be looking at after the interview process is over in terms of next actions and how you’re treated.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 204 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we discuss processes and considerations for your next job search, including ways to allow jobs come to you.
Original Recording Date: 12-17-2022
Topics – Setting the Table to Discuss Job Search, What Characteristics Do You Value In A Workplace, What Kind Of Work Do You Want To Do, Search for Jobs Online, Other Job Search Methods, Apply for Jobs, Letting the Jobs Come to You1:20 – Setting the Table to Discuss Job Search* Last week in Episode 203 we talked about resumes, their structure, how to showcase your accomplishments, and how you can keep them current. * As part of revisiting some of the foundational elements of career progression, the next logical step after you have a resume is to execute on a job search. * Past episodes to revisit on job search + Episode 4 – Company Culture as a Filter + [Episode 13][https://nerd-journey.com/nerd-journey-013-the-sniper-approach-to-job-hunting-with-tom-delicati/] – The Sniper Approach to Job Hunting with Tom Delicati - We talked through Tom’s interesting approach to finding a new job after relocating, and we also discussed a Spiceworks post by BBigford about cold calling companies for jobs. + Episode 57 – Preparing for Unexpected Opportunities Part 5 – Personal Finance - We talked about finances and how stability in this area helps prevent urgency and stress. + Episode 20 – Reasons to Quit, Area of Destiny, and Finding Your Area of Destiny - Check out the concept of area of destiny when it comes to career. + Episode 19 – Dreaming in Bands * Today we will discuss characteristics valued in a workplace, the type of work you want to do, the actual search for jobs, the application process and how to apply for jobs, and ways you can let jobs come to you.
4:17 – What Characteristics Do You Value In A Workplace?* We continue to advocate progressing your career, and in that you want to make things better. * There are different things we might want to improve to progress, but sometimes we might want to improve the environment in which we’re doing the work. There will be things you do and do not like about your current and past work environments (i.e. things you value highly and things you want to avoid in the future). * At the time of this recording we’re seeing tech companies downsizing but doing so in an incredibly hot job market. Though you may be going through an involuntary change in jobs, you still have a lot of opportunity to make a choice about where you want to work next. * This is the time to really think about where you want to work. We advocate that you should evaluate this periodically and not just once. * For example, here are the things John values in a workplace: + Co-workers who are smart in a different and complimentary way than John + Supportive and collegial culture + Challenging and interesting problems to work on + Support for growth and learning + A technical / individual contributor career path to progress in seniority and compensation without being forced into management + Fair to generous compensation package * As you think about this, consider the constraints that you have and the aspirations you have. + Maybe you want to travel and would be excited about a role that requires 80% travel, for example. + Maybe you have situations that will not allow any travel or minimal travel. + Is it important for you to be close to the company headquarters, or is being farther away from it ok? + What about the distance between you and your immediate manager? John once had a situation where he and his managers were on opposite coasts of the US. Is that ok for you or not ok? + In our current environment, do you want to work in an office every day, at home only, or some mix of the two? * Gain clarity and categorize the "must haves," the "nice to haves," and the "must avoids." * Something important to Nick is the ability to potentially grow into a different area of the company. + This allows keeping a network of people inside your company who know your reputation without having to start over somewhere else. + John says this is always easier (an internal move). But, we should consider how healthy the organization we are looking to join (within the same company) really is. + People may want to know about that organization’s culture or at least investigate it during the job search. You might reach out to people you know in that organization, try to figure out how many people have held multiple roles in that organization, or see how many people have geographically relocated and stayed with the company. * Each person has their own set of circumstances to consider. Be mindful of what those are as you do this exercise, and consider having a conversation with your family, group of friends, etc. (the people most important to you). * The timing has to be correct as well just like Yvette Edwards shared in Episode 202. + If the timing is off, it’s not the right opportunity. * Nick suggests considering reimbursements for things (mileage, tolls, etc.), wellbeing allowances, mental health benefits, insurance and family health concerns, etc. + Maybe you have an elderly parent that you need to take care of. Is time off for this covered, or can additional insurance be purchased to cover it? + It would be great to know about these things as you go into applying for a job. * Consider expected work hours, time off, doctor appointments and whether you can make up the time or must take time off for it, etc. + John remembers hearing about a company that was installing bedrooms in their headquarters recently and how this set some expectations with employees to be hard core. This was about Twitter. Check out this article for further reading. + Maybe being hard core at an organization is something that excites you and you don’t have family obligations. That is something to consider and may be a way to become highly compensated and get some bumps in seniority quickly. * You may want to participate in a technical community (even if meetings happen on work days) and have your company support you going to speak at events. + This reminds Nick of the discussions with Joe Houghes, specifically the discussion in Episode 189 about capturing the intangibles. + Even though Joe asked about these things during his interview process, he had determined they were important in a company before entering that process. * "If you go through this exercise a couple of times…and are able to articulate that to yourself, then that is the first step in being ready to articulate it to a hiring manager during an interview process." – John White
13:55 – What Kind Of Work Do You Want To Do?* This is where dreaming in bands comes into play. + Many times we are locked in on a job role / title and might want that with more responsibility, at a larger company, and with a slightly better pay scale. The dream is about what you have now but a little bit bigger and a little bit better. * One of the reasons we started the podcast was to get people to think about just how many roles exist in the technology space that are well compensated, encouraging listeners to think a little outside the box. + One example is sales engineering (what John and Nick do). It is well compensated, fairly technical, and often pulls from the pool of people who have experience in IT operations, enterprise architecture, software development, and many other technical roles. + Make sure you explore the types of roles that are available, the different industries those roles might span, etc. + Another role in infrastructure operations might be in that band of possibility for you, but it’s not the only thing. We want to make that very clear for listeners. + Think outside of what you’re doing right now. What about joining a cloud platform team, a site reliability engineering team, a DevOps team, an architecture team, moving into technical sales, technical marketing, product marketing, product management, etc. + There are so many possibilities for the next job for most people that we don’t even realize it. * To spend time thinking about what you want to do you have to spend time thinking without distraction, letting your brain really churn on it. Write some stuff down, and think on it regularly. You have to get outside the normal bubble of what you do today in many ways. + Consider taking a walk after your work day ends and thinking about these things, for example. + Expand your mind a little by looking at job listings online, even those for which you may not seem qualified. Check to see whether you have relatable experience that applies to the job in question. This is to help you see the realm of possibility and understand what is out there and could help you spot potential gaps. + There is no requirement to take action other than looking at job listings for positions that might be a stretch for you. Pay attention to requirements and description of what daily tasks might be like in the job. + After looking at several job listings and doing some gap analysis, you may find that there is only a small skills / requirements gap in what you do today compared to a job listing that excites you. Maybe you’re willing to work really hard to close that gap because the job is exciting. Or maybe you aren’t. You will not know until you go through the exercise of looking. * Think of this process like implementing a new technology solution to solve a problem. + The problem is needing to determine what you want to do next. + You’re trying to determine the level of effort to make the implementation happen (or to get to "I can do this job"). + Is the gap 20%, 50%, etc.? You might not know until you talk to somoene who has done the thing. If I need to implement a cloud PBX (phone system), I probably want to talk to somoene who has done it and pick their brain about what went well, the person’s background to that point, what they had to learn, etc. This applies to jobs too and may allow you to spot some of your own gaps. + To fill gaps, maybe there are training courses, certifications, in workplace apprenticeships, etc. We’ve talked to many people on the show who found a team that did interesting work and asked to tag along / shadow, help with the work, moonlight in that department, etc. * Nick remembers Mike Wood’s experience in doing informational interviews as mentioned in Episode 169 to learn more about a role from a hiring manager / someone doing the job. + In this scenario there is no pressure on the person you contact to evaluate you for a role. They are explaining what the job is to you so that you can determine if it’s a job you want to do, if you are qualified, etc. * If you have a gap around a specific technology, you may be able to bring that into your current company. Many on the show have mentioned bringing VMware, Microsoft, or other solutions into their company to add value, for example.
22:01 – Search for Jobs Online* There are many possible tools that can be used to search for jobs. + LinkedIn + Indeed + Monster + If you have a specific company in mind you can visit their careers page to see postings and often times apply. * If we take LinkedIn for example… + In the jobs section you can create a search term (i.e. infrastructure architect). You can see all positions that contain the search term. + Then there is a set of filters you can leverage to refine the results (i.e. limit results to a country, region of a country, experience level, work from home / hybrid, etc.). + You can then turn on alerts based on the search term and filtering so that you know about new postings. Alerting can be done for multiple search terms! + John recommends setting up alerts and reading through postings fairly intensely, especially at the beginning of a search. + As you see more job postings and look at requirements, you can feed them into your resume as we discussed in last week’s episode. + LinkedIn, like other platforms, wants to socially engineer people and will make recommendations. Based on the skills you have placed on your LinkedIn profile, you will see recommended jobs based on those skills, what you post and comment about, etc. - If you don’t have skills in your LinkedIn profile, be sure to add them! + And if the recommendations aren’t titles you might immediately think of, read the job description. It could be completely in your wheelhouse, but you will not know until you read the description. + Don’t have blinders on as you do this!
25:23 – Other Job Search Methods* In [Episode 13][https://nerd-journey.com/nerd-journey-013-the-sniper-approach-to-job-hunting-with-tom-delicati/] we spoke to Tom Delicati and discussed what we called his "sniper method." + If you’re highly skilled in a specific software or technology that has a community built around it, go look for other companies in that community who are using the software (in Tom’s case it was a user group for Epicor software). + This is a great approach if you’re speaking at the user group, any conferences around the software or technology, or perhaps publish some blogs / papers or other proof of work to demonstrate expertise. Having a company or people at a company know your reputation in advance is always a plus. * The user group approach is helpful in a secondary way for tips on technologies or trends and the ability to network with others to find out if their companies might be hiring. + Meetup.com is a great resource for this and has options for attending user group meetings in person or remotely. + User groups are often people coming together who are using / interested in the same technology or in the same industry coming together to share learnings, best practices, and how to better prepare for the future together. * Also in Episode 13 we mentioned a Spiceworks post by Bbigford on cold calling for jobs. + This is a method that could be utilized when moving to a new area where you don’t have a network of contacts. + It involves having a customized set of resumes in hand and walking into companies to ask for a discussion with a hiring manager. + This touches on what Tom did as well and involves asking if the company has openings despite what may be listed on their site. + You can ask for a discussion and ask for someone to look at your resume even if you do not know anyone at the organization. + One downside is you would need thick skin. You may get told no a lot, and this can be scary to do. People may have fear that prevents them from even trying. + Also, the people you would want to talk to may be working from home or in a different office building than you visit when cold calling. Keep that in mind. + If this method gives you anxiety, perhaps choosing a different method is best.
30:09 – Apply for Jobs* Once you’ve searched for jobs and filled your funnel, it’s time to apply. * Here are some ideas: + Look for connections you might have at the company to which you are applying. You could reach out to that person and see if they know anything about the role, the hiring manager, the team, the type of work done in the role and products supported, workload and expectations, company culture, etc. - There nay be a bonus program at the company for referrals, and if that is the case, the person may offer to refer you and possibly even coach you through the interview process. - You may need to sell the idea of recommending you to someone you do not know extremely well. And it may not happen at all. It’s ok if someone may not feel comfortable referring you. Be thankful the person was willing to provide you with some help. + Don’t forget to look for people who at one time worked for the company in question but do not currently. - There is a LinkedIn filter for people formerly employed at an organization. And some people may be willing to tell you why they left (i.e. new job was more money, it was an awful place to work, etc.). + Customize the resume to the job listing. + Save the job listing somewhere in case it is taken down once all candidates apply. + Customize the skills to the skills in the job listing. Map the things you have done to the things they are saying are important activities for the job in question. There will never be 100% overlap, but you want to highlight the right things. + You probably do not want to apply for 10-15 jobs at the same company at the same time. Maybe more than 1 is ok, but the shotgun approach may not be fruitful. And, it’s tough to write a custom application for 10 different jobs at the same company.
33:31 – Letting the Jobs Come to You* Even when you are happy and not looking for a job, make sure your LinkedIn profile is up to date with skills you have, responsibilities you have, and the tasks you do. People looking for these things may come knocking on your door to hire you. + LinkedIn makes money from giving recruiters access to certain access and data on the platform. Recruiters are constantly on the platform looking for talent. + There are unexpected opportunities out there. Sometimes the best time to consider opportunities is when you don’t need to consider new opportunities. It makes it low stakes. + Be desirable on LinkedIn. Engage with current technology, and share what you are doing with it. Update your profile semi-regularly. Post blog articles you have written. Make interesting posts that promote engagement. + Anything you post demonstrates writing skills to a potential hiring manager / recruiter and could also act as proof of work. * It is important to build a network of contacts inside your company and outside your company. + Get to know people on different teams inside the company. Meet your skip level manager like Yvette Edwards discussed in Episode 202 + Meet people outside the company. User groups are a great way to do this. User groups and mutual connections on LinkedIn are a great way to do this. + Maybe someone you are connected to on LinkedIn comments on a post about data science from one of their other connections. If you’re interested n dat science, perhaps you could reach out to this other person and talk to them about the type of work they do to learn more. - If you don’t ask, you can’t know! - When connecting with people on LinkedIn, take a second to send a personalized note with the connection request. If the person says no or does not want to talk with you, it’s very low stakes. + In addition to in person user groups, there are online communities you can leverage: - Check out Twitter, Mastadon, Spiceworks, MangoLassi, Microsoft community sites, and many others. + John likes the idea of connecting with people at your current company on LinkedIn. Over time, a certain percentage of those people are going to leave the company to work elsewhere. Now you know someone who works at a different company who you can ask what it’s like working for the company, why the person made a career shift, etc. + Nick shares that we’re always in guest acquisition mode (a technique you could use too). - If Nick meets someone in person or comes across them on Linkedin, and they have an interesting story, he wants to connect and learn more. - Often times this is followed by some information on the theme and purpose for Nerd Journey and Nick suggesting the person be a guest to discuss some of their background (i.e. getting laid off, taking a sabbatical, making a specific career turn, etc.) and the offer to build an outline for their review and collaboration. - Make it easy for people to say yes to your request. The same technique can be used to ask for a discussion with someone. - Ask the person if there are good blogs in a specific area that you should be following or to recommend another connection with specific experience. If the person you are communicating with knows someone who has transitioned from the job you do to the job they do they could recommend you. - Maybe there is a way you can help another person that you did not realize when the discussion began. - Think about developing the reciprocity style of a matcher instead of a taker. John says this sounds similar to advice we received from the Career Tools podcast to build and serve your network as a primary focus, allowing you to make a request every now and then. When you’re giving and serving and keeping connections active, it makes everything better. + Publicly accessible proof of work (LinkedIn posts, posts in a technical community, a blog, a video you made, code you put on GitHub, a recorded presentation you gave, etc.) can demonstrate expertise and enable jobs to come to you. Be sure to collect those links so you can easily share them with others. + John reminds Nick that we need to take our own advice and be sure to put things like past VMworld / VMware Explore sessions on our LinkedIn and kitchen sink resumes.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 203 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we discuss tips for resume writing, format, structure, and how to get from accomplishment to resume bullet point.
Original Recording Date: 12-17-2022
Topics – Focusing the Discussion on Resumes, Focusing the Discussion on Resumes, Foundations and the Goal of a Resume, No Fancy Formatting, Appropriate Length, Skills Section, Job Experience Section, Keeping Current Accomplishments in Resume Format, Edit Your Resume for Each Job Application1:56 – Focusing the Discussion on Resumes* Should we get content on YouTube in 2023? Let us know what you think! * We’re starting a new series of discussions to revisit the fundamentals of career progression. While we did address it in our earlier episodes we want to highlight and present some of the things you need to do regularly for career progression (progressing at your current company in the form of promotion, responsibility shift, leaving your company to pursue an opportunity, etc.). * Today’s episode is all about resumes! + In the future we plan to have discussions on job searches, preparing for interviews, and possibly lining somoene up for a discussion on job offers and considerations around them.
3:12 – Previous Episodes that Involve Resume Discussions* Episode 4 – Resume Writing Tips * Episode 53 – Keeping Your Resume Updated * Episode 64 – Your Position has been Eliminated with Mike Burkhart (a Part 1 of 2) * Episode 114 – Career Insight from the Manager Lens with Brad Christian (a Part 2 of 2) * Episode 173 – Collect Your Portfolio with Evan Oldford (a Part 2 of 2)
3:48 – Foundations and the Goal of a Resume* Foundations of resumes + No fancy formatting + Aim for a single page with an optional second page detailing job experience + Contact info as header for entire resume + Skills section with specialized job section + Job experiences in reverse chronological order with quantified accomplishments featuring your job skills * We recommend this structure to align with the goal of a resume. + A hiring manager is trying to solve a problem by hiring someone (someone who has left a position, team growth that requires a specific set of skills in a new member, etc.). + Your goal should be to articulate that you are a very strong possibility for solving that problem and communicating that as quickly a possible in the resume (in the top 1/3 if possible). + You want to get to the next step in the process and for someone to look at your resume and pass you through. + In order to solve a hiring manager’s problem you need to know what it is. Read the job description carefully, and read it multiple times to ensure you are addressing the problem statement.
6:10 – No Fancy Formatting* Usually when working with medium to large size companies, the resume will be going into an applicant tracking system (not read by a human as a first touch). * This means we want the resume to be as easily machine readable as possible (i.e. successfully scanned with OCR / optical character recognition, type / font recognition, etc.). + If it’s a physical resume you want it scanned as quickly as possible. + If you’re filling out an online form with resume information this is less of an issue. + Choose an easily readable font that easily distinguishes between characters which may look the same when typed in other fonts (lower case L, capital I, and the number 1 for example). Tahoma and Verdana are usually good, freely available selections to help here. + If headed to a job fair maybe you have physical copies of your resume. + You want the information on your resume to be located where someone expects it to be, and for this fancy formatting like inserting a photo or using multiple columns does not make sense. * When submitting a digital resume to an applicant tracking system, the system often will scan the digital copy and spit out its contents into a form that you can then view, edit, and approve. + Bullets may be carried into the new submission form but may not be. Make sure the data is pulled in the way you wrote it before submitting! + For example, if you’ve had multiple positions over time with the same company, how is that being imported by the software? Is it pulled in as multiple jobs or jumbled together in a way that does not clearly articulate multiple positions at a company? Make sure this is clear before submitting.
9:18 – Appropriate Length* Target a one to two page resume. * Generally one page is a great target but may not be possible when trying to articulate complex technical jobs. + You might need more detail in the resume to showcase skills through your accomplishments and completed projects. Two pages is acceptable. + Needing a 3rd page may indicate your editing skills are questionable. Seek to convey everything needed in a maximum of 2 pages. Likely someone reading your resume would not get to a 3rd page. * Think of the full resume as an aggregation of information that is very concentrated like laundry detergent. You will add water to it in the interview. + You’ll never be able to add enough information in your resume that will compel someone to hire you on the spot (highly unlikely), which may be the root problem of resumes that are too long.
10:41 – Skills Section* We call it a skills section, but it could be skills and software, skills and tools, etc. * We are trying to articulate specialized job skills and specialized job experiences. * Many times you will find skills listed in the required section of a job posting. + You should be looking at multiple job postings for the type of job you want, and we encourage you to stretch a little within reason (i.e. look at slightly more senior positions even if you don’t own that senior title right now). + Look at the required skills and experience section in these sample job postings. - Some examples of these in a technical job posting could be experience with Unix / Linux systems administration or enterprise architecture design experience. - If you have those skills but do not have it in your resume, they need to be in the skills section. The end goal is to pack the skills section in a way that answers the question of whether you as a job applicant have the ability to do the things a hiring manager wants (item x, item y, item z, etc.). - Skills on your resume are very brief and showcase you have specific skills. More detail comes in the job experience section. - A skills section is a great place to showcase industry certifications that are relevant to the job posting. This section of the resume could be titled skills and certifications as an option.
13:01 – Job Experience Section* This is a section to list positions you’ve held in reverse chronological order. Multiple positions at the same company could show up as sub-bullets or separate jobs in this section. * Under each position you want quantified accomplishments, and you want accomplishments that address or map to the skills in your skills section. The skills section is almost like a table of contents for what will come in the job experience section. + From our example of Unix / Linux systems administration as a skill, one might use the statement below. It’s a quantified accomplishment (how many, what kind, what scope, etc.). - Oversaw lifecycle management of 300 production Debian Linux VMs as well as the Dev, Test, and Deployment pipeline. + For the enterprise architecture design example, a quantifiable accomplishment might be the following. This quantifies and features use of skills from the skills section, speaks to the scale at which it was done, and gives the reader an idea of how well it was done. - 5 years experience applying TOGAF principals in the design of a 250 business-user, 10,000 customer eCommerce environment; Met SLOs for three years in a row. + Try using quantifiable business metrics and not just technical metrics. For example… - Designed and oversaw deployment of a new DR process, which cut downtime by 6 days, year over year, saving approximately $1M in lost revenue. - While the mention of cutting downtime here may be more of a technical metric, the revenue number is definitely a business metric. This example has both. + Nick suggests another way to frame and think about this. He has learned about a concept called an impact report with 3 components: - An activity something you did (i.e. designed and oversaw deployment of a new DR process) - An outcome that was produced as a result of the activity (i.e. cut downtime) - The evidence that the outcome was achieved with metrics that show the impact (i.e. cut downtime by 6 days, $1M in lost revenue) + Nick mentions he has built PowerPoint presentations that have illustrated impact using the categories above, but this method can easily be used in a bullet point on a resume (separate components by semi-colons or commas to make one entry, for example). + The evidence in an impact report can speak to the scale of the environment in which you have worked and help someone understand whether your thinking / skills could scale to the size of a new environment. + John likes the idea of scaling up and scaling down and showing evidence of staying in budget in each scenario. * We kind of glossed over contact information as a header, but this goes long with avoiding fancy formatting and saves space on the resume for evidence that you can solve a hiring manager’s problem.
17:52 – Keeping Current Accomplishments in Resume Format* Doing all this from scratch can be challenging. We recommend constantly keeping things up to date (an iterative approach). + Every time you embark on a new project, think about the point you would want to add to your resume upon successful project outcome. Write that down as it can be a project goal. + For example, we had some budgetary constraints as well as these challenges. Based on these business objectives we were able to accomplish A, B, and C by doing X, Y, and Z. + As the project changes (i.e. budget, scope, change to anticipated outcome, etc.), you can revisit and revise the statement in order to keep it current. Remember to include milestones and awards (i.e. project manager of the year, etc.). You would need to do this for your project regardless. + You can save an in progress item to your resume as points to make in the job experience section. + As you continue this process, items from your current resume can be transferred to LinkedIn (and obfuscated as needed so you are not exposing business confidential information in your resume or on LinkedIn). + It is a good practice to make sure there is not a huge gap between what is on your resume and what is on LinkedIn. Likely people are going to check you out on LinkedIn when you apply for a job. * Nick suggests adding links to any publicly available proof of work to your resume (a script on GitHub, a course you authored, a blog series that demonstrates expertise, a video, etc.) so it’s easy for a hiring manager to check out. * Make certain words in the resume active links. That way if an applicant tracking system keeps a digital copy of your resume that is passed to a recruiter or hiring manager, they can easily follow the links to learn more.
21:35 – Edit Your Resume for Each Job Application* This presupposes that you have a kitchen sink resume or everything resume from which to pull data / information (contains all possible relevant points).
+ This may or may not match the level of detail on LinkedIn (might be more room to have extra detail on LinkedIn).
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For each job application you need to rearrange / refine the skills section and choose which accomplishments from your work experience are most beneficial to put on the resume…all based on job requirements.
- Read the job listing / posting carefully and save a copy. It could disappear after you apply.
- The job listing will tell you requirements, nice to have items, and daily responsibilities. You want the items from your experience that match what is in the job listing, editing out the projects and accomplishments not relevant to the job in question.
- Trimming down the skills and job experience sections and customizing to the job to which you’re applying encourage brevity and help you keep the resume 1-2 pages in length. You don’t want a skills section that takes up 75% of the first page of your resume.
- NOTE: The skills section is probably the only place in your resume where two columns / a multiple column format is something we would encourage to help save space.
- A job posting is like a cheat sheet that tells you all the questions on a test. Make sure your resume answers all those questions for the specific job (i.e. you have the skills they want and demonstrate them though experiences shared in the resume document).
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Remember to consider holistic experience when you write your resume. There may be something you are doing outside of work that demonstrates you have the necessary skills (something you do through volunteering efforts, etc.).
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If a hairstylist wanted to move into a customer service role, would you say they don’t have customer service skills? How about a hairstylist who maintained a 30-person customer base with 5-star reviews over a period of years and positioned and maintained a customized set of hair care products for each customer?
- The hairstylist probably had a marketing plan they needed to develop and execute and marketing materials they needed to create. If there was a marketing element to the job where this hairstylist was applying, this is something to mention. All you are doing is speaking to things you did that map to skills a company needs.
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The skills on a resume are not all technical skills! Don’t forget the soft skills.
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Working with a cross-functional team means you’re working with a group of people reporting to different managers. And you’re doing this with no role power other than influence.
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Everything you put on your resume needs a story to go with it. That way if someone asks for more detail, you have the story ready.
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If someone were to ask which pieces of lifecycle management you handled related to those 300 Debian Linux VMs mentioned earlier in our example, what will the story be? Maybe 100 VMs were for project A, 100 for project B, and 100 for project C…with each project having different lifecycle and uptime requirements. Then you can speak to how you handled each case (which is far more detail than you could have put in a single bullet point on your resume).
- An interviewer may be looking to see if the lifecycle management skills you have either match what they need, are similar to / can be modified to what they need, or not what they need.
- If you cannot tell a larger story about something on your resume, you need to develop it or perhaps not put it on the resume.
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Don’t be afraid to ask for help with your resume.
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It’s challenging to be mindful of all the relatable experience you have. Sometimes a friend, peer, or professional resume writer can see a skill you have that you didn’t think to put on the resume.
- In the resume writing process, a 3rd party may be interviewing you to sniff out specific skills and experiences to help bolster your resume.
- For example, when you were in this role, did you ever have to market your skills to get retained? Did you ever have to market a product? Did you ever have to market your team? All of these instances would indicate you have done marketing functions in some form or another.
- John and Nick both have had to have people do this kind of thing for them to tease out the relatable experience.
- In the moment when you’re doing resume writing, you are so in your head it will usually keep you from seeing the whole picture.
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To the perfectionists out there, we can sympathize.
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It will never be perfect. Get to good enough to answer the questions in a job description in a timely manner so you’re in the candidate pool.
- Do the best you can, and you have to be ok with what you’ve developed to submit.
- "In the time frame that I have, this was as perfect as I could get it." – John White
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Whether starting from a blank page or not, there are two different processes to be aware of – writing and editing.
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Writing is getting something down on paper. You then come back to edit later to reword things, add clarity, etc.
- Don’t edit as you write. The editing needs to happen later. This is easier said than done.
- We’ve had guests on the show mention incorrectly interpreting what they actually have written as what they meant to write. You need to let your writing sit long enough to forget the context of what you meant to write so you can evaluate only what was written.
- This happens to so many people (the brain interpreting what you wrote as what you meant to write), including John. Phil Monk mentioned this happens to him in Episode 185 and spoke to some tools that could be used to reach things back as they are written in Episode 186.
- This episode is the result of listener feedback. We really appreciate it and welcome feedback on topics to ponder and potential guests.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 202 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of an interview with Yvette Edwards, discussing .
Original Recording Date: 11-28-2022
Yvette Edwards is a Vice President of Solution Engineering at VMware serving public sector customers. Catch part 1 of our discussion with Yvette in Episode 201.
Topics – Encouraged to Pursue Leadership, Finding the Leader, A Step Back, Manager of Managers, Staying in Touch as a Leader, Perspective on the Technical Career Path3:06 – Encouraged to Pursue Leadership* Yvette had to be convinced by someone else to pursue leadership. * Around the time Symantec bought Veritas, Yvette had been a field facing SE and had made a change to be an inside SE (due to motherhood and not wanting to travel quite so much). * There was a large SE team for Veritas in Heathrow, Florida. Symantec having just bought Veritas had a large team in Beaverton, Oregon. * At some point, Yvette’s team got a new leader. There were two really large inside sales organizations, and this leader needed help and was asking for some team leads. + Yvette and one other person volunteered to help with this. Yvette also says she raises her hand all the time to help and that it’s something she has to work on. + To Yvette this was not a leadership position. It was just taking care of the team. Someone needed to raise their hand for this, and Yvette happened to do it. + About 6 months into the role, Yvette’s new leader opened a requisition for a manager. Yvette’s team lead counterpart decided to apply for the job, but she did not. + Yvette got a random calendar invite for the interview despite not having applied, and she didn’t quite understand why her leader had sent it to her. + Yvette mentioned to the team that she did not understand why she was selected for the interview. The team told her she was their leader, she took care of them, and did all sorts of things for them. They wanted her to be their leader. + There was another factor. They team didn’t feel Yvette’s team lead peer took as much care of the group. + "It was really my team telling me they wanted me to do it, that they would support me, that they needed me to do it, and that I was the only person who should do it. It was their encouragement." – Yvette Edwards + Yvette decided to go ahead with the interview and decided she was doing it for the team and that it would make the team better. + Once Yvette entered the process, she was in it to win it, and the process was intense. She wanted to do the team proud. - Yvette had prepared a presentation to share and sought out help from others she knew on how to prepare for the interview. - Yvette’s sister was in leadership and was someone who provided guidance. - "I definitely wanted to do the team proud, and I definitely was trying to win it for us as a team." – Yvette Edwards * John says people going for that first management position don’t necessarily understand how intense the interview process can be and how different it is than an individual contributor process can be. + One of the tips John has heard is have a 30-60-90 day plan. + Yvette had not heard of this years ago but certainly has one now. + The essence of this is you have to have a plan if you’re the new leader. This is a leadership role and isn’t a supervision role. - Building your plan into a 30-60-90 day plan is a great idea, and there are templates out there to get you started. + Start introspectively. - Yvette has been helping teach in VMware’s EMERGE program for future leaders, and if your company has this type of thing, look into it. - Would you miss the individual contributor work that you do today? You will likely have less of that depending on what the job is (i.e. less hands on with the technology, not able to meet with customers that often, etc.). - There are other things you will take on that you do not do today. You will now be in charge of strategy, caring for others, the HR component, etc. - Ask questions to those who are in the role already. - First decide if this is the shift you want to make. If you decide that is something you want to do, come up with your plan and visit of how you would be that leader. What would you do? It may be similar or different than what your leader does today. Be able to articulate differences. - Maybe you think about it from a start, stop, continue format to help build a 30-60-90 day plan. Thinking about a great leader you have may give you an idea of things you would want to continue. Think about what the gaps are in the team you would lead if you got the job. * Maybe a leader you’ve had was great with customers but not great at operational things. * Maybe you’re inheriting a high functioning team, and your goal is to retain that team. Find out what you can bring to that team. - You really should show up with some type of vision. - "And then understand a ‘why me?’ What is it that you’re going to bring to the table? Why should they pick you as a leader? What kind of unique sets of skills and criteria would you bring to that job?’ – Yvette Edwards
10:12 – Finding the Leader* Nick points out that many managers we have spoken with did not come up with the idea of going into leadership on their own. + Sometimes we have aspirations that are innate. Yvette gives the example of former Symantec CEO Steve Bennett wanting to become a CEO before reaching the age of 30. - It turns out he had built a company and become CEO well before 30. + Yvette never had those kind of innate goals. + There are those who strive to do their best and always want do to more. + The ones tapped on the shoulder for leadership roles are usually those doing the job already. - "If you want that next step, you kind of need to do that next step." – Yvette Edwards - You can start to pick up some of the responsibilities either naturally or intentionally (ask your leader how you can help, have that person mentor you, be part of that leader’s succession plan, etc.). - Ask your leader if you can run the team while they are out of office as an option to practice / take on the right skills. - There are those leaders to depend on / consistently ask to run the team in their absence. These folks often times get asked to consider leadership because in many ways they are already doing it. + Nick thinks people can be doing the work of a team lead and maybe not realize they are already doing some of the work of a people leader. - It was comfortable for Yvette to be a team lead because no one was telling her she was going to be a manager. Someone jus said they needed help. - She’s not sure why leadership was not something she aspired to do. Going straight there without doing a team lead first may have caused more impostor syndrome. - Sometimes you look around and no one else is raising their hand. At this point you kind of realize you’re it. Listen to Yvette’s story about becoming president of her HOA. - "Sometimes those moments happen where somebody needs to take that leadership role. And it might be you." – Yvette Edwards - If it might be you, try to figure out why. If you feel confident that you can make a difference and could bring something to the table, you owe it to yourself and everybody else to try it. + John suggests there is another knife edge here. There is the fear of making a change from a technical career as an individual contributor and what one is giving up. And at the same time there is a mix of aspiration or a calling to help the team. - You can help in multiple ways. Pushing yourself forward as a technical resource can also help the team (profile, impact, visibility). - Maybe it’s mentoring or providing advice or building up of others without the manager title that also magnifies the impact of the team. - John said he had been thinking about it like having to make a decision rather than finding a calling and then people asking you to move forward in that calling (could be a move to manager but could be progression as an individual contributor up to senior, super senior, CTO, CTO Ambassador, etc.). - We need to remember that every role is important, and there are callings at different points in our careers.
15:18 – A Step Back* The good thing about moving forward and taking that bold step into management is that you can always take a step back if it’s not for you. It may be a sidestep. * "It’s ok to say I don’t want to be a manager any more, and that is exactly what happened to me." – Yvette Edwards + Yvette had taken on the role of manager and really enjoyed the team she managed (the team in Heathrow, Florida). But she wound up eventually getting the team in Beaverton too. + Then they acquired a company in Houston (Called Bindview), and Yvette was leading a very large team, needing to travel to Houston and Beaverton now and then. + Then they acquired a company called Altiris, and Yvette got the field mid-market SE team. + The next thing she knew she had a national team and was doing a lot of traveling. + Yvette has always tried to figure out work and life balance, and it was importance since at that time she had a very young child (3 kids total and 1 being very young). + "Being away from home a lot was just not what I had signed up for. I was fine having the inside SE team in Heathrow, Florida, and the next thing you know I had a national team." – Yvette Edwards + Yvette was probably to the point where the company needed to give her a manager underneath her to help with so many direct reports. This did not seem to be in the cards at the time. + Yvette was very close friends with another SE leader whom she collaborated with a lot. This person was looking for a field SE for Florida and Georgia. Yvette decided she could take that role and travel a lot less (just inside Florida and to Georgia). + Yvette really enjoyed being an individual contributor again and performed well that year. * After about 9 months Yvette was asked to be the manager of the team she worked on and became the southeast SE leader. + This all happened because she decided to take a step back to being an individual contributor again. + The good news about any career is that it doesn’t have to be linear. It can have some zigzags. You pick up different experiences along the way. + It’s important to consider what is going on in your life and your priorities outside work. For Yvette, national travel had been too much. She cared for her team and was not going to let them suffer. + Yvette feels she may have overextended herself because she was trying to take care of everyone. She had a moment of authenticity with herself and realized she was trying to do too much while trying to take care of a young family at home. * Was it hard to turn off some of the manager things Yvette used to do when moving back to individual contributor? + It wasn’t hard at all for Yvette to relinquish control and let her manager deal with leadership responsibilities. + But the manager Yvette worked for as an individual contributor had no problem leaving her in charge when he would be out of office. + Yvette says she would help out with things here and there and may have been more of a mentor to others than her peers. * One of the best things that happened after Symantec acquired Veritas was when Yvette got to work toward a CISSP and learn more about security (having come from the background of focusing on availability). + Yvette was able to go and take a class and "just do technical things again," which she greatly enjoyed. + Yvette remembers at one point before this sending her team to get CISSP training, but she couldn’t go (since managers were not allowed to go). + Yvette loved cybersecurity, and it was something new for her to learn.
19:33 – Manager of Managers* Since Yvette has served in a director role and above, are the skills to manage a team of front line managers similar to those a front line manager needs to be successful? + It’s a different set of skills on the whole. + Yvette tells SEs who want to be managers that they are no longer here to be the smartest person in the room. "Your job now is very different. Your job is to make sure your SEs are empowered and to remove obstacles." – Yvette Edwards + Some new SE leaders may have trouble letting their people shine (i.e. let them answer the questions in customer meetings, etc.). + It is the same kind of thing as a second line manager. You have to enable your leaders to be leaders. Give them the information, help them work through challenges, teach them how to hire and let them hire people, etc. - There are all these things that you used to do that you are enabling your team to do. - You should also be hands off and not tell one of your reports who to hire, for example. You can help teach them how to hire correctly. * This is a bit nuanced in that the person a front line manager of yours hires becomes part of your organization. * Yvette’s shift to second line leadership was more complicated. She had never been a second line leader, but they were spinning out a new company at the same time (almost like a startup). + Yvette had to build the Americas channel SE organization from scratch. - This included hiring leaders in Latin America, for example, and building a strategy for covering the 50 countries in Latin America. - This was organization design and something Yvette had never previously done (not something you do in front line management). - Getting a budget, doing an organization design, and taking constraints into consideration was very interesting for Yvette. - Yvette’s manager at the time is the one who assured her she was ready to take the next step and move up to director of the channel SE organization. This manager had Yvette in mind for the job. - Running a channel organization is very different than running the direct SE organization. You are in this case enabling partner SEs to understand and be certified in the technology. - This role for Yvette was not just about learning how to be a manager of managers. Strategy and organization design were also new skill sets for her. - Moving into a director position does not necessarily mean you will have to build an entire organization (might just float into one). - And there was an international aspect to this too that was a challenge with needing to cover Latin America. Things like international law and knowledge of tariffs were important to learn and consider. - Yvette says maybe she should not have let herself be recommended for this one, but it was a great learning experience. And it allowed Yvette to raise her impact inside the company from national in the past to international.
24:33 – Staying in Touch as a Leader* Yvette believes in the importance of having skip-level meetings (i.e. meetings with 1 level down from your direct reports). As a new VP in the public sector at VMware Yvette has been having a lot of these lately down to the individual contributor level. + It’s great talking to leaders under her, but individual contributors are closest to the customers and products. It is always great to get their perspective. + Sometimes at high levels you start to hear everything is great. Leaders cannot really help if everything is great. It’s sort of like that knife edge we mentioned earlier. Do you ask a skip-level leader for help? + Yvette says if someone asks for help she is always appreciative of this and will try her best to help them. + This is a little nuanced because as things go up the line (or management chain), things can be made to sound better and better. + It’s possible your leadership may not know something is a struggle. People assume other people know there is a problem going on somewhere. Or maybe you would not want a VP to know there is a problem because there is a fear the leader will think you aren’t doing your job great or something else. + Yvette feels it is important as an executive or a leader to have those skip levels. - Make sure people know they have that open door. - Yvette’s reason for being in leadership is to make an impact and to help others. If she is in a position where knowing something would enable her to help, it’s on her for not knowing. And the best way to know is through these skip level interactions. * John says part of the job of Yvette’s reports is to filter and not bring every single detail to her because it would probably be overwhelming. But having direct reports of a leader be comfortable with that leader having skip leve1 meetings seems like a balancing act. + This has a lot to do with trust. + Yvette has tried to teach her teams in the past to never bring up a problem without a possible solution (even if in the end the solution suggested is not the one chosen). + In matrixed organizations leaders usually know about the big issues (operations issues, specialization issues, product quality, etc.). It’s the more nuanced challenges that an individual contributor may have. + Yvette also does skip skip levels (so 2 levels below her level). + You do have to have trust with your team that it’s ok to have their people have a skip-level meeting with you. - If someone doesn’t feel comfortable with you having a skip-level, that could be a sign of a problem. Yvette has never had a problem with somoene having a skip-level with somoene reporting to her. - If you have a skip-level with someone and they don’t want to answer casual questions or share any information, it is a sign that you may have a leadership issue. This is not the reason for the skip-level meetings, but sometimes this comes out in them. + John says it might be hard to know what to say or to share when speaking to a skip-level leader. - Yvette shares some examples of ways leaders can discover a problem without someone having to tell them directly. She might casually ask someone about their career aspirations and have them say no one has asked this before. - Yvette has seen her previous leaders put randomized skip-level meetings on their calendar just to get to know people, and she is now doing the same since she is new to the public sector organization. - Yvette let people know on her all hands call to reach out if they wanted to have a call with her. Also, if she hears there is top talent that is discouraged or disengaged she might check in on them by having a 1-1. - Yvette really tried to go out of her way to check-in on others during the pandemic since many were discouraged and downtrodden. There was no agenda, and it was jus to say hello. + Nick says the individual contributor 2-3 levels down does not always know how to talk to a senior leader or even what to say. It seems like the leader will need to be the more talkative to set the person at ease. - Right now with Yvette still being pretty new to her current organization she can ask to hear about a person’s customers, what is resonating, trends the person is seeing in the industry, etc. These are things Yvette wants to know but that can serve as good ice breaker type questions. - This way the person Yvette is meeting with does not need to prepare anything. - Yvette also likes to let her leaders know when she is going to have a skip-level and to let the person know not to panic. - Yvette likes to let the organization know in an all hands call. Usually Yvette lets people come to her, and then the word gets out that she is not so hard to talk to on a call. - Yvette likes to share a little bit about herself with her organization as well. "I think it’s on both sides. You have to make sure that you’re being vulnerable, you’re sharing something about yourself if you expect others to share with you." – Yvette Edwards
32:30 – Perspective on the Technical Career Path* Has Yvette’s perspective on the technical career path changed now that she is in leadership compared to her perspective on it when she was an individual contributor? She’s now an executive within an organization and responsible for promoting people who pursue this technical career path.
+ Yvette sees this as not so different than having an IDP (individual development plan) conversation with someone.
+ Yvette remembers her time as a front line manager and having a SE freak out about an IDP conversation stating "I just want to be a SE."
- When Yvette asked about his career, this engineer thought for sure she was telling him he had to be a manager or that he needed to have some type of IDP filled out.
- This engineer was very good at his job and wasn’t really interested in titles. The pause Yvette gave him made him very uncomfortable.
- Yvette let him know that this was very individualized. If he wanted to be a SE for the rest of his life he could do that. And he was so far ahead of everyone else in deciding on something he enjoys.
- At first this engineer may have had a fear of being judged.
- This person had been a SE for a long time and was out of Atlanta, Georgia (still at Veritas). He still keeps in touch with Yvette and says she is the best manager he has ever had because she asked what he wanted to do with his career.
- This kind of thing is specific to the individual.
* Does what you are doing today engage you, and does it excite you?
* What Yvette wants as an executive is engaged and happy employees. "A content employee is phenomenal. An excited employee, a passionate employee…that’s what I want." – Yvette Edwards
* It’s great that we have all these levels so that people can keep pushing themselves and keep growing.
* Yvette is a big fan of the growth mindset. Something may terrify her, but she is going to try it and do it.
* Some people really like what they do and don’t want to do anything else. Some people don’t like change / aren’t great with change.
* Others may want different customers or new segments in which to operate, as examples of those who would want a change.
* Every role is important. It is great that we have diversity of roles and diversity of levels. All of that works great in conjunction. We can’t all be leaders and can’t all be individual contributors.
* We have to make sure everyone is in the best role for them individually at the time. You may want to go for a big role or a gated role like principal. It depends on what is happening in your life because the timing needs to be right. Look at these decisions holistically.
- If you want to get in touch with Yvette, find her on LinkedIn here – Yvette Edwards. Reach out and say hello. She would love to chat with anyone.
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Mentioned in the outro
- Don’t miss the best John White rant to date in Episode 9 on how to dress for an interview.
- Yvette had the triple whammy of moving up to a director level, needing to build an entire channel organization, and the added nuances of an international scope.
- When we speak to senior leaders we should have questions ready. Those people have a unique perspective due to their position inside an organization that we cannot have but that will make us better.
- You are involved in a sales cycle up the chain of command inside your organization whether or not you know it. You are trying to sell them on your projects, what you think is important, what your organization and team think is important, that you are having an impact, etc. All of these things need to move up the chain.
- This may provide insight into the fact that what you are doing is not valued by the organization. If this happens, maybe that’s a time to move jobs within / outside the organization or start doing things that are considered important by leadership.
- Remember what Yvette said about the timing of an opportunity needing to be right for what is happening in your life. The right opportunity at the wrong time is the wrong opportunity, and it takes discipline to say no to these! Hopefully we know what our needs are in a role before it is offered to us.
- Think back to some of the discussions with Andrew Miller and some of the discussions about being in a hypergrowth startup and not spending as much time with his kids as he would like in Episode 167.
- The other episodes with Andrew Miller were Episode 165 and Episode 166 if you would like to hear more of his story.
- It wasn’t the right time for Stephanie Wong to take the first job offer she got from Google because it was not what she wanted. See Episode 177 for more on that and the rest of her story in Episode 178.
- Think back to some of the discussions with Andrew Miller and some of the discussions about being in a hypergrowth startup and not spending as much time with his kids as he would like in Episode 167.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 201 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of an interview with Yvette Edwards, discussing her early career as a developer, the change to sales engineering, growth through frequent presentations, impostor syndrome, and life as an individual contributor.
Original Recording Date: 11-28-2022
Topics – Meet Yvette Edwards, Pass or Fire, The Unexpected Shift, Impostor Syndrome, Life of a Sales Engineer, Presentations, The Individual Contributor’s Path3:21 – Meet Yvette Edwards* Yvette Edwards is a Vice President of Solution Engineering at VMware serving public sector customers. * Few people aspire to be a solution engineer / sales engineer / sales consultant when they are in college. In fact, you likely will not find it in a course catalog. Yvette didn’t begin her career in this field. * Yvette studied management information systems in college (or MIS) at George Mason University, learning programming languages such as C++ and Cobol. + AT&T came to her school to recruit developers, and they had just build a new facility close to where Yvette went to school. + C++ was developed by Bell Labs, and Yvette voiced her love for the language during the interview. It turns out they were hiring Cobol developers instead. + Yvette was hired as a software developer at ATT working on mainframes. + Yvette loved programming because it was problem solving. She is not an artist, but being a programmer was her way of building / creating something from scratch to solve a problem, which she really enjoyed. - Note: Yvette later worked for Oracle and was able to create some programs for the IRS (one of her customers). * John mentions the MIS degree and its distinction from computer science in that it includes a business focus. + The MIS degree was a pretty new degree at the time with not a lot of people who knew about it. + Interestingly enough, Yvette’s daughter got a MIS degree at Florida State around 2011. + Not a lot of universities may offer the degree these days, but it was a great blend of business and technology. + Yvette was originally encouraged to study business in school by her father and started off more on track with a general business degree. In her junior and senior years, she was encouraged to specialize, and the MIS track really interested her. The last two years of her studies were very computer science focused, exposing her to assembly language , computer architecture, and many other programming languages (Cobol, C, and others). + It was great having the business foundation and being able to read a balance sheet. + Interestingly enough solution engineers are taught to read 10-K forms for companies. + Yvette believes the MIS degree is similar to what people get by getting a computer science degree and then going back for a MBA. + John says it seems like a computer science degree with a minor in business in many ways.
8:05 – Pass or Fire* At ATT Yvette worked on various algorithms that helped generate billing information for the circuits which ATT was selling (private lines as they were called), as well as the AIC system (an account inquiry system that was written to have a green screen). * Think back and recall that ATT invented fiber. * As a developer you had to understand the underlying circuitry and then translate into code. + "That’s really what is interesting about programming. You’re taking the physical world, and you’re translating it into basically the virtual world. But you’re coding everything that happens in real time into something a machine can understand." – Yvette Edwards * Yvette did not have a telecommunications background going into to this and a new area she was able to learn as a developer. + This reminds Nick of our discussion with David Babbitt from Episode 195. He was a developer for IBM but got to learn about DNS (developing a lot of domain specific knowledge for the industry / market in which the software he worked on operated). * Yvette didn’t have an electronics degree but kind of got one in that area through experience. + Being hired on at ATT put you into a 90-day new hire program, and it was 90 days of teaching you how to code the ATT way (their standards and processes, etc.). + During this time you would get specific projects and take them from start to finish starting with design. The instructors would provide the requirements to employees and allow them to come back and ask questions. + This was a pass or fire class and like graduating from one college and being put into another. You had to pass a final exam (which was a coding project). As you wrote the code the computer would give you smiley faces as feedback to let you know you passed. + During this class, Yvette and others were part of MPS (management programming staff) and considered part of management (management level but not people managers). Everyone else was union. + At some point during this class the CWA (communication workers of America) went on strike. + Yvette and the people in her class were told they may be asked to do strike duty since there was a strike. She and her classmates did not really know what that meant at the time. The class ended up pausing because of the strike, and they were deployed to take over the jobs for the people on strike. + Yvette and her classmates were flown to Philadelphia. Her job was going to be to test circuits. During strike duty Yvette went from one class to another to receive the necessary training (which took about 3 weeks). Once the training was completed the strike was over. + This was the first time Yvette had gone on a business trip or flown anywhere. - And at 21 years old and as part of her entrance into to the corporate world Yvette had to cross a picket line. Before entering the ATT building each morning, Yvette and her colleagues would see the picketers calling them "scabs." - Yvette says you could understand why picketers might be upset. They had gone 3-4 weeks without a paycheck due to the strike. - Yvette focused on the fact that she was a developer and that her employer had asked her to go show up at a specific place. + John says it is interesting to hear about being in a technology organization with such a strong labor component. This seems to be increasingly rare, and in John’s last few jobs most people were exempt employees earning salary. - Maybe this is due to the waning influence of labor which is a trend in the United States.
14:23 – The Unexpected Shift* At ATT there was use of 3GL and then 4GL with some use of Informix. Yvette was assigned to a project for which they were building everything in Informix that was very interesting. * They always needed more staff. As they kicked off new projects, they would hire contractors from CSC (Computer Systems Corporation). She started to notice the hire of more and more contractors over time. + Some projects were sunsetted, and people were not being re-deployed to other projects. + Yvette had an older friend who expressed some concern about the company not hiring as many developers. She encouraged Yvette to attend a job fair with her to see if other companies were hiring developers. + Yvette and her friend attended a job fair in the Washington, D.C. area at an Embassy Suites. You could walk in and talk to representatives of each company. AOL was there during this time but using older technology. - Yvette walked by the Oracle booth because she knew them to have an interesting development platform. From what she saw they were hiring for sales consultants, and she kept walking. - There was a gentleman who came out of the booth to talk to her. When he asked if she was going to come to the booth she told him no and that she was looking for a software engineering role. She wasn’t interest in sales. She was an engineer. - The gentleman asked if she knew what a sales consultant was, and she said no. He asked if he could explain it to her. She agreed, and this was the first time she learned about the sales consultant / solution engineer / sales engineer (or SE) role. - The gentleman shared the details of the role with Yvette, and he explained the nuances of it. This gentleman recognized that though Yvette worked as a software engineer, she seemed to have great interpersonal skills. The job was a combination of technical and interpersonal skills. - Yvette went through the interview process and was hired by Oracle, which was her first foray into sales engineering. * At first the change into sales engineering was daunting and scary, but Yvette really loved that it was different. + She remembers needing to do an install on her very first day (a remote install). It was a pretty challenging event. + Yvette stayed at work until probably 9 PM on that first day to avoid needing to fly out the next morning to finish it. + Yvette loved and hated being consistently being put in uncomfortable positions of needing to do something with which she had no experience, which made her unsure of whether she would be able to finish the work successfully. + Yvette remembers being told she needed to do a presentation on a product called Data Query the next day. This required she teach herself the product and prepare a demo on a very short timeline. + The first year Yvette had a lot of fear and trepidation, which challenged her to learn. + Yvette also needed to deliver many presentations. This was not an area where she had much experience in her time as a developer other than walking through code she had built with someone. + As a young woman, Yvette had to present to customers she didn’t know. This was the 1990s, and her customers were government entities. Often times customers would think she was the secretary / assistant to her male sales counterpart and would not expect her to be the engineer who did a technical presentation. + During this time, Yvette was challenged on a daily basis. She feels her success may have been due to believing in herself despite that inner voice that didn’t seem to believe.
19:11 – Impostor Syndrome* A lot of impostor syndrome hit Yvette during this time. * Yvette tells the story of a young man she met at new hire orientation that she befriended. He was fresh out of college. He joined a different team than she did but invited her to attend his first official presentation at the office in Bethesda, Maryland. + When the presentation began, the young man started presenting in perfect French. + Yvette later realized this kid had a law degree, was educated in other areas such as computer science, and had just graduated from Sorbonne University in France. + Yvette saw this presentation and thought "there’s no way I’m going to be this good, and he’s speaking in perfect French!" + When this person told Yvette he had just graduated, she made the incorrect assumption that he must be both younger than her and less experienced. + "How did they hire me, and then I looked around and everyone was brilliant that I worked with?" – Yvette Edwards after starting at Oracle and wondering how she got in * John says everyone must go through something similar when they get into a role like this. They don’t necessarily understand that the job is often to develop a breadth of knowledge (not necessarily depth) and then be able to, on demand, generate some depth in what someone is asking you about and then go and teach it to the person. + This type of skill may not really be something that is often asked of us when we go through school. + We don’t necessarily have great ways to find people with this skill in their comfort zone and may not have trained people to do it before the stakes are higher. + Yvette says this is context related too. You can potentially feel comfortable with a product or widget and specific use case, but then someone throws a different use case your way. Then you have to start thinking in a new context (could mean a lack of industry experience, for example). + Listening, understanding the context of the question, and always being truthful if you don’t know the answer is important. + One of the biggest things we have to do as SEs is finding the answer. We may not know the answer, but we can research the answer or may know someone who knows the answer. + Yvette has made it a point in her career to be truthful if she didn’t know the answer and says we can gain credibility by going to get the answer on behalf of our customers. - Yvette also would not stop working with the customer on something until she got the result they needed. - "And sometimes you have to ask for help, which is hard." – Yvette Edwards
23:18 – Life of a Sales Engineer* Yvette mentioned the fear about her hire being a mistake (or a fear of being found out). Most of us deal with the this same fear (with the possible exception of people with some type of abundant / delusional self-confidence). + John references the Dunning-Kruger Effect here. * Being self-aware about the fear and be honest about the lack of knowledge is a knife edge. You want to be seen as an authority but be honest about what you don’t know at the same time is challenging to navigate in your first year or in general early in a career. + This likely applies outside the sales engineering role, but as sales engineers, we are asked to learn about a wide variety of products, services, and use cases. + Nick says this is similar to the help desk employee being brought a microwave or some other technical gadget and being asked to fix it. + There is a mix of humility and willingness to learn in all of this. * What can listeners know if sales engineering could be a fit, and what types of qualities does someone need for the role? + The biggest one for Yvette is curiosity and a need to have diversity in your day. + When college students ask Yvette what a typical day is like in sales engineering, she tells them there really is no such thing. - We could probably say working with technology and interacting with customers is a large part of it. Yvette believes you need to have some type of resiliency. - Yvette feels she is the sort of person who thrives in a dynamic environment where things tend to be different day to day. + If you are someone who truly loves technology, interpersonal relationships, solving problems, interacting with people at different levels within an organization (in which conversations can be quite nuanced), and seek a dynamic work environment…sales engineering could be a good fit for you. - You may be in your home office, at a customer’s office, possibly traveling, or even doing a presentation in a hotel room or inside a conference room you’ve never been to previously. + What about the myth that this kind of role is not for introverts? - Though people might not believe her, Yvette is an introvert now and was extremely introverted as a young woman. - An extrovert gets energy from being around people, and an introvert truly needs that time away. * Both types can be great public speakers, but an introvert may need time after a presentation to be alone and recharge. - It was easy to be an introvert as a developer. There were few presentations other than walk throughs of code (which was more reading from a document / coding tool). - One of the hardest things for Yvette was the presentations. She remembers doing a lot of practicing. Yvette’s daughter was 4 years old around this time, and she would walk around repeating the phrase "Oracle is not just a database company." - For Yvette, practicing presentations was a way to get past the nerves. She would not memorize a script but rather practice what she wanted to say. - If you’re an introvert and are interested in this kind of career, don’t let that stop you. If presentations feel scary, think about the other times you have done presentations (a presentation to your children, something in church or at a community center, etc.). * The reason these presentations were successful is because you had a message to get across. * Think of presenting as getting a message across, getting a story across, or as teaching. Yvette really loves teaching people and leaned into it in her career. * If you are someone who likes to impart and share knowledge, you too could enjoy presenting as long as it had those outcomes. - If you’re an introvert and this career excites you, try it out. Try some different presentations. * Toastmasters is a good resource for practicing presentations. * Nick says the best way to practice presentation skills is to keep doing it.
30:07 – Presentations* John mentions presenting as a specific fear people have – standing up in front of a group of people and facing away from the slide deck you’re presenting. John says it is so specific that he has asked people to deconstruct what scares them. + Is it the standing up in front of a group? + Is it facing away from your notes? + Would sitting down in a circle make it easier? + Would it change if the audience was made up of all your friends? + Where is the line that determines presenting is not ok / not for you? * Presenting is like any other skill. We should try practicing at the edge of our comfort zone and then press that edge continually. + Instead of doing this people say "oh, I never could do that" and treat it like a binary thing (people either can or can’t) as opposed to understanding that everyone is bad at it in the beginning, and we get better slowly over time. + Yvette once heard a motivational speaker say that the best way to not feel judged is to stop judging others. + Many teenagers are so afraid of judgment it can be almost paralyzing. If we give people grace as presenters hopefully they will also give us grace. * Yvette says she gets the most nervous when presenting if she feels she does not know the material. That ratchets up the level of impostor syndrome. + Presenting on how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich is one thing, but Yvette would have to present Oracle technology concepts in her early days to people with 20 years’ experience or people to had PhDs. + This is why authenticity is so important. You cannot pretend to know more than people with this depth of experience. + In these scenarios Yvette realized she knew the new technology or feature sets on a deeper level than her audience, even in the case where they had more experience than her. + Yvette’s nerves get really bad when she is speaking about things she does not know well / well enough. * Nick mentions you also have to be prepared for people to ask questions on top of being nervous. * What type of peanut butter would Yvette have used in the how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich presentation? Listen and hear for yourself.
33:29 – The Individual Contributor’s Path* Many companies have a career path / ladder where people can progress, stay, technical, and not be forced into management. Large technology companies have this kind of path, for example. * Yvette has been blessed in that her employers over time (ATT, Oracle, Symantec, Veritas, VMware) have always had career paths for individual contributors. * Yvette fully intended to remain an engineer forever. Though she made the shift from software engineer to sales engineer, she liked the individual contributor path. She enjoyed the job she was doing. * Yvette would also do things that were exhibiting leadership, but she never considered them as being leadership.
+ She would serve as team lead, lead a project, or mentor team members. To Yvette it was still individual contributor work.
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Sales engineering at most of the companies Yvette knows has a strong individual contributor career path (all the more reason to go after this career).
- Some engineering type jobs (like mechanical engineering for example) may have a step or two and then only have leadership as a way to progress.
- At VMware as an example, there are 6 or 7 levels on the individual contributor path, and progression has to do with your sphere of influence and your sphere of impact.
- Even though you may not be a leader you can make a bigger impact inside your company like impacting an entire region or geography rather than just your team.
- If you are seeking to make a bigger impact, you can do that as an individual contributor.
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Mentioned in the outro
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Similar to the way Yvette leveraged the experience of her colleague in the ATT days, should we leverage the experience of recruiters who contact us and take some calls now and then to stay on top of the job market and do a low pressure interview practice?
- This sounds like something that will feed into an upcoming episode on resumes!
- The pattern of people getting into sales engineering by blind chance is emphasized again with Yvette’s experience (perhaps a pattern we had not called out earlier).
- Maybe we need to be open to hearing about roles which on the surface don’t seem like they fit?
- This could help you address gaps in getting to a place that sounds interesting.
- John is glad he asked about introverts, extroverts, and ambiverts in sales engineering.
- Maybe when faced with impostor syndrome type situations (i.e. presenting to people with more experience), we can take advice from Ben Bergeron’s Chasing Excellence, lowering the definition of success and controlling it better.
- John says preparing to deliver an extemporaneous speech in high school speech and debate is something that seems to map fairly closely to the idea of generating depth on-demand for a customer presentation.
- Leave it to John to bring in a swing dancing reference here.
- Should we mention Episode 141 on deep work too?
- If you are aware of a degree that is similar to the management information systems (MIS) degree Yvette mentioned (that mix of business and programming) that somoene has pursued in the last 5 years, we would love to hear from you about degree offerings and schools that are offering these programs.
Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.
Welcome to episode 161 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we review our book goals from 2021 and set some book goals for 2022.
Original Recording Date: 02-12-2022
Topics – 2021 Year in Review, Making Reading more Deliberate, Hidden Gems, Goals for 2022, Final Summary * We don’t have a guest this week. We’re focusing on 2022 book goals and some review of our 2021 goals. + You can hear our full list of 2021 book goals in Episode 108.
2:08 – 2021 Year in Review John * John experienced complete failure to read any of the 2021 books! * And a lot of the ideas for books were great. As a result there will be lots of repeats. * The only things removed are the Python, computational thinking, and data science reads. * What John actually read: + Deep Work by Cal Newport, which changed a bunch about how John works + See Episode 141 through Episode 147 for our 7-part series on deep work. - Nick read this one once and then again to prepare for the deep work series of shows. It’s even better the second time through. + How to Take Smart Notes by Sonke Ahrens, which also changed a bunch about how John works - This book speaks to Zettlekasten and developing a personal knowledge graph. Think of it like a card catalog system. - See also Episode 156 and Episode 157 with Josh Duffney for an overview of the smart notes methodology and how Josh put it to use in his work. + How to Take Smart Notes in Obsidian by Josh Duffney - This is a short read and is focused on getting up and running using Obsidian as a tool for smart notes. See Josh Duffney episode references above for more details on the book (and a special discount link for listeners). + Moneyball: The Art of Winning an Unfair Game by Michael Lewis - This was not influential in my work, but I did keep seeing clips from the movie come up as YouTube recommendations. Instead of watching the movie again I listened to the audiobook. - A fun trivia fact – John referenced Moneyball in two episodes: Episode 90 and Episode 93. - There’s some work application in regard to the use of analytics for business to be had from reading the book. + There were two series John listened to in 2021 (fiction for personal enjoyment): - Lee Child’s “Jack Reacher” series. Fiction. John learned nothing but was entertained. * Amazon recently commissioned a series based on the first book. John feels it was pretty faithful to the book and is an interesting exploration of the United States through the eyes of someone who is American but has never lived in the US. If you don’t mind the violence it is worth the read. - Martha Wells’s “The Murderbot Diaries” – Science Fiction; entertainment * John re-listened to it because another book in the series had come out. - John is happy to talk to anyone about these last two books in more detail if interested.
12:27 – Making Reading more Deliberate * John wants to make reading a more deliberate task in 2022. + Visual Goals – Print out the list and place it strategically where it is visible + Dedicated Time – setting aside an hour at night for getting ready for bed then winding down the night , highlighting and taking notes as he can so they can be digested at a later time + Defined chunks – clustering the books with things he hopes to get out of them + Commitment – John purchased his #1 and #2 reads and has them ready along with what he hopes to get out of them. That’s the first chunk.
14:05 – Nick * Nick read a few of the 2021 book goals but eventually wandered away from the list (trashed it completely). * He continues to follow a stream of consciousness approach to focus on what seems most interesting and relevant at the time (many have come from podcast guests). * Sometimes Nick will open up Audible and decide to go with something completely different than what is on his wish list. + Note: Nick reads 99% of his books in audio format. * At one point Nick started suffering from information overload. It was from too much self-help nonfiction he thinks. This is the point where he went back to biographies. + Nick feels like with biographies there is less pressure to apply what you learn. You can take what you want from the biographies because a lot of it is learning about someone’s life, their story, etc. Nick finds it allows making interesting connections / comparisons to other situations. * The books Nick wanted to read and actually did are… + A Champion’s Mind: Lessons from a Life in Tennis by Pete Sampras - Sampras had this idea of raising his game while playing within himself in addition to leading a relatively low key life for a tennis superstar. + Ride of a Lifetime: Lessons Learned from 15 Years as CEO of the Walt Disney Company by Robert Iger - It was interesting to hear about Iger’s growth from newsroom to CEO of Disney and the stories of being there through acquisitions like Pixar, Marvel, and Lucasfilm. He also had interesting thoughts on best practices for firing someone. + George Lucas: A Life by Brian Jay Jones - It was interesting to hear about how movie pitches are done, how treatments for scripts work, and more of the details of how Star Wars came to be. + A Game Plan for Life: The Power of Mentoring by John Wooden and Don Yeager - This was the only paperback book Nick read in 2021. - In the book, Wooden shares 6 mentors in his life and their impact on his coaching and life philosophies followed by sharing stories of 6 people he has mentored and how their lives have been affected by him.
19:00 – Hidden Gems * Some of the best books Nick stumbled upon are… + Invention: A Life by James Dyson - Nick had no clue how close we came to not having Dyson as a company. James studied furniture design as a young man. The book even talks about how Dyson made an electric car at one point. This one is also narrated by James Dyson if you listen to the Audible version! + The Big Miss: My Years Coaching Tiger Woods by Hank Haney - Hank Haney narrates the audio version of this book. He talks about the pressures of coaching an elite performer like Tiger Woods and how close someone like Tiger lets you get on a personal level. + Stan Lee: The Man behind Marvel by Bob Batchelor - Nick didn’t know that Stan Lee created Spider Man and many other popular Marvel characters. Marvel is another company that didn’t come to fruition during its journey from infancy. + The Teenage Brain: A Neuroscientist’s Survival Guide to Raising Adolescents and Young Adults by Frances E. Jensen, Amy Ellis Nutt - This was written by a neuroscientist in terms that normal humans can understand. This should be required reading for parents and teachers. The risk analysis part of the brain for teenagers isn’t fully developed. Keep telling your kids about other teenagers who made poor choices and the consequences of those actions, and keep an open dialogue with your teens. + So Good They Can’t Ignore You by Cal Newport - Newport talks about the idea of career capital, encouraging readers to go deep in a specific area until they reach the edge of that field. In that area they will find an opportunity to move into the adjacent possible (easy to move into another field that is closely related). + The Practice by Seth Godin - This was a Josh Duffney recommendation from some e-mails he and Nick exchanged. This one is about shipping creative work and will make you want to write. Nick read it twice and really wanted to write for 20 minutes per day after reading it (but hasn’t been able to do that consistently). + The Master: The Brilliant Career of Roger Federer by Christopher Clarey - Roger Federer has long been one of Nick’s favorite tennis players. It was interesting to hear how Federer dealt with the fame and what it was like being married to a former tennis star. Nick was inspired to write this post after reading the book. + Deep Work by Cal Newport (read it twice) * For a full list of what Nick read in 2021 and his top ten reads of the year, check out this blog post.
22:30 – Goals for 2022 John Re-Reads * After adding the Zettelkasten smart-notes process, John would like to re-read some books and extract their lessons in a more permanent way. + Fun fact: John used the smart notes methodology to take notes that became our show outlines for the deep work series of episodes. * Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke + John wants to be more clear about the uncertainty that exists in his decision making and hopefully make better decisions as a result. + On a daily basis, John tries to assess how certain he is about something. * Your Brain at Work by David Rock + The book is about optimizing how one works based on how the brain works, how much energy certain things take, what time of the day you have more energy, etc. It’s a good compliment to some of what we read in Deep Work. * The Talent Code by Dan Coyle + John needs to remember more than “deep practice, expert coaching, and ignition.” But he doesn’t. * The Back of the Napkin: Solving Problems and Selling Ideas with Pictures + The book presents the idea of visual thinking and explaining complex problems by drawing simple diagrams. John wants to develop this visual language of explanation as a skill. * Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond + This is a non-fiction discussion of how geography led the faster or slower advancement of societies around the world and is one of his favorite all-time books. + Listen to the example John gives from the book about the ease of being able to get a package of food in specific countries and a little about the why. + John would love to have others read along and discuss the book.
30:31 – Extending the Lessons * The Little Book of Talent: 52 Tips for Improving Your Skills + This is another book by Dan Coyle on skill acquisition that seems more tactical in nature. + This is the first book in John’s "chunk" that he plans to read and blog about. Tweet at John to ask about his progress. * Blah Blah Blah by Dan Roam + The book is about the idea of Vivid Thinking. - “Through Vivid Thinking, we can make the most complicated subjects suddenly crystal clear. Whether trying to understand a Harvard Business School class, or what went down in the Conan versus Leno battle for late-night TV, or what Einstein thought about relativity, Vivid Thinking provides a way to clarify anything.” + This is also part of John’s first chunk of reading. He’d like to be able to understand and explain complex ideas better, specifically interested in how Vivid Thinking differs from his previous Visual Thinking. * Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise by Anders Ericsson. + Ericsson wrote the research paper that most of the non-fiction discussion of the 10,000 hours of practice rule came from as mentioned in other books we’ve read (The Talent Code, Outliers, Talent is Overrated, Deep Work, etc.). * Staff Engineer: Leadership Beyond the Management Track by Will Larson + We’ve mentioned this before, but it’s about leading without being a people manager. + Nick read this one as well as another book Will Larson wrote called An Elegant Puzzle: Systems of Engineering Management which is primarily about people leadership in software development (lessons widely applicable to other areas). + Nick remembers a recommended reading section inside Staff Engineer as suggested by the people Will Larson interviewed when writing the book. * Upheaval: Turning Points for Nations in Crisis by Jared Diamond + This book contains case studies on how 6 countries survived recent upheavals and whether we can apply those lessons to ourselves. John has yet to read this one. * Don Jones mentioned in episode 137 that he writes fiction as a hobby. John is adding Power Wave Prime Wave Accounting #1 to his list. + Fun fact – there is also a book 2 in the series now.
36:50 – 2021 Books John Wants to Read * Pragmatic Thinking and Learning by Andy Hunt * This is a re-read. John mentioned it as a book that has shaped his thinking in Bonus Episode 8 from late 2019.
- Other than some fundamental principles he remembers from it, he feels he needs to read it again to refresh his memory.
- John enjoys re-reading books.
- The Ideal Team Player – How to Recognize and Cultivate The Three Essential Virtues by Patrick Lencioni
- We reviewed another book by Lencioni in Episode 87 called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team that was also quite good.
- John wants to hear Lencioni’s thoughts on the team player concept.
- The style of Lencioni’s writings are usually business fable and easy to consume. John plans to put this one early in his list to get a quick win (part of his first chunk).
- He would like to compliment the vivid thinking idea from Dan Roam with personal development on being a better team player. That’s a pretty important part of John’s job right now, working with a team of other Customer Engineers at Google Cloud.
- Success is in Your Sphere: Leverage the Power of Relationships to Achieve Your Business Goals by Zvi Band
- This one sounded intriguing based on the title.
- Strategic Relationships at Work: Creating Your Circle of Mentors, Sponsors, and Peers for Success in Business and Life by Wendy Murphy, Kathy Kram
- This choice was inspired by our interviews with Ashley Connell that began in Episode 96.
- Ashley shared the difference between a mentor and a sponsor, and John would like to grow his circle of good sponsors and mentors.
- Any other books in this area / thought leadership is welcome advice to us.
- Feedback That Works: How to Build and Deliver Your Message by Center for Creative Leadership
- In his role at Google, John is involved in a lot of peer feedback and review. He’d like to improve in this area.
- Please send recommendations for providing good feedback John’s way!
- The Art of Being Indispensable at Work by Bruce Tulgan
- This is a title that seemed interesting to John as he definitely wants to be indispensable at work. If he is able to read it he can report back.
- Empathy at Work by Sharon Steed
- John likes to lead relationships with empathy. If there is a book with a good model for doing this, he would really like to hear about it.
- If you have read something covering this genre of empathy at work, DM us!
38:17 – Nick * Nick will continue to target biographies and memoirs (we remember stories better anyway) but is open to others in the nonfiction genre. + Maybe it’s structured chaos or unstructured chaos (not sure). * Interesting ideas for 2022 + Not Dead Yet by Phil Collins - The Audible version is narrated by Phil Collins! + Every Tool’s a Hammer by Adam Savage - Adam narrates this one too. He was the co-host of Mythbusters for a number of years. + A Craftman’s Legacy by Eric Gorges - Eric started Voodoo Choppers and later hosted a TV show called A Craftman’s Legacy where he interviews different craftspeople and tries to do what they do for a living. The lessons the craftspeople have learned are widely applicable across domains. - This reminds John of the craftsman’s approach to tool selection discussed in Episode 145 of our deep work series. - Nick sees himself following the thread of craftsmanship in a career because he likes the discipline it brings to your career. * The concept of being a builder from Chris Wahl in Episode 148 also contributed to this interest as did discussions of apprenticeship with Don Jones in Episode 138 + Own Your Tech Career by Don Jones - Nick bought a copy but has not yet read it (paper format only). + [Ghost Rules: Unspoken Secrets to Getting ahead]((https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Rules-Unspoken-secrets-getting/dp/B097CGBJ2L) by Evan Oldford. - Evan and Nick connected on LinkedIn, and Evan let Nick know he had written the book. + The Story of You: An Enneagram Journey to Becoming Your True Self by Ian Morgan Cron - Nick finds the Enneagram framework for personality types pretty interesting and read The Road Back to You also by Ian Morgan Cron. * Stolen Focus: Why You Can’t Pay Attention – and How to Think Deeply Again by Johann Hari + This looked well-reviewed on Audible, and with all the talks we’ve had about focus and distraction, Nick feels this would be a great read based on his desire to excel as an individual contributor. * Peak Mind by Amishi P. Jha + This is about the science of attention and how it affects your memory. The author speaks to the idea of mindfulness and its ability to improve your memory and your mind. * The idea of combining the reading with the smart notes approach is fascinating and perhaps may lead to more blogs, hopefully leading to remembering the books better and capturing some of those cross domain lessons from biographies. + Nick feels like this will lead to at least making more literature notes.
48:11 – Final Summary * Can we hit our goals this time? + John is not going to hold himself accountable to read every single book in the list. He does want to make sure he reads some, which will be a great improvement. + Nick likes the fact that John has a structured reading routine and time. Nick reads a little here and there, while stretching, doing laundry, while taking a walk, etc. He will then take a few minutes to capture thoughts. * We would love to hear interesting book recommendations from listeners! + What have you found interesting? + What strategies do you use for remembering more of what you read?
Contact us if you need help on the journey.
Welcome to episode 160 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 3 of our interview with Andy Syrewicze, discussing Andy’s struggles with anxiety, realization that it was a problem, seeking professional help, and some strategies that have helped him cope.
Original Recording Date: 12-29-2021
Andy Syrewicze is a Technical Evangelist for Altaro Software (now part of Hornet Security). Check out part 1 of our interview with Andy in Episode 158 and part 2 in Episode 159. Get the full details on what Andy is up to and ways to contact him here, and don’t forget to subscribe to his Substack!
Topics – Discovering Anxiety, Warning Signs, Breaking Point and Seeking Help, Coping Strategies, Parting Thoughts 3:08 – Discovering Anxiety * Growing up and even into early adulthood, Andy was told he was laid back. When you hear things like that you kind of take them as part of your personality. * Now that Andy knows he has an anxiety disorder, he can look back at stages of his career and get some interesting insights. + There were times were he appeared very driven in his career. He was actually very anxious during those times. When younger, he would take the anxiety (the extra energy) and put it into what was next (which is not sustainable and was really him internalizing the problem). * Andy has generalized anxiety disorder. It means you have an excess of worry, and you may not even know what it is about. Andy spoke about this in a 2-part presentation for AmpNavigator 2021. + Andy’s struggle when first aware that he had the disorder was looking at the anxiety as a problem to solve. + Sometimes anxiety is unexplainable. This can cause extra worry when you’re trying to figure out why it is happening. * At one point Andy had the opportunity to go and work for his dream organization. + It was a situation where he knew the right people, a new team was being created with multiple openings, and he had sort of side stepped the hiring process. + Every conversation as a part of this endeavor was very positive. Andy then heard nothing for a couple of weeks, and when he followed up he received nothing more than a generic "you’re not the right fit for this." + In terms of his anxiety, this was the glass shattering. There were some cracks made at different points (i.e. his wife telling him that he might have an anxiety issue). + When Andy was let go from the manufacturing company, it did not really affect him. Missing out on this specific opportunity to work for his dream organization was shattering for his self-confidence. + Impostor syndrome became a large part of daily life at this point in time. + Instead of the anxiety pushing him forward like before, it turned into something much more destructive. + Having that seemingly easy shot at a dream job and missing it really shined a light on anxiety as an underlying problem. After this, he had constant anxiety on a daily basis. Things only made more sense after professional diagnosis and therapy. * Sometimes people don’t understand mental health disorders. We all have anxiety in our lives, but not everyone has a debilitating anxiety that keeps them from functioning at work, home, etc. + We need to deal with these types of issues the same way we would if we broke our leg (seek professional help). + There’s a distinction between a disorder and a phase. * To take an example, Andy would be going along at work and notice he was worried about something. + He used to cope with these types of things with avoidance. Avoidance could mean he’d go tinker with something technical (i.e. doing things with technology to distract himself). * Listen to Andy’s example about how helping an end user with a ticket can make the person feel. He feels equally appreciative of therapists because of how they’ve positively impacted him. + Therapists tend to queue up thought processes that help you see / understand what’s been happening. + Every time you help someone with a ticket in IT, you bring with it all of your experience (your seat time, number of repetitions / at bats). It is similar with therapists (who have many patients with some of the same problems). + One of John’s favorite things gleaned from a therapist was blatant honest about how his feeling / situation was not unique (i.e. what is happening is well within the pattern). + Once Andy understood his struggles fit within a defined pattern for which there is a set of solutions available, his brain translated that to mean there is a roadmap for the future with skill gaps to fill (not unlike something technical).
17:52 – Warning Signs * Nick mentioned the value of an outside perspective on the situation (someone outside your family / close friends). * Andy had very few external symptoms and internalized everything. Andy’s wife picks up on all the hints and clues that he is anxious (even able to detect it when he walks into a room). + Before diagnosis, the anxiety may have broken out for Andy in the form of getting irritated over something silly or reacting to situations in ways that were over the top. - Listen to Andy’s example scenario about his son throwing up in the car unexpectedly. * There were also a number of self-destructive thoughts that happened after he missed out on the dream job opportunity. + This is one of the catalysts for going to seek outside help. * John makes a great analogy about scabs and scar tissue that build up after continued internalization of anxiety. * As we get older, the level of responsibility increases and can increase anxiety. + Andy had essentially been holding a 10-pound weight straight out in front of him for years and couldn’t hold it any longer.
23:46 – Breaking Point and Seeking Help * Andy was always a little hesitant to go see a therapist. The last thing he wanted to do while anxious was talk about his anxiety. + There will come a point where you decide "I don’t want to feel like this any more." + You get to a point where you are done with it. + When he called to make an appointment there was no hesitation. + He felt hesitation driving to the first appointment but never since. + The entire process was therapeutic for Andy. It was not easy, of course. There were sessions he had that at the time did not feel like they were valuable (but really were in the larger scheme of things). * If you’re on the fence about therapy… + Know you are not alone. + The process works. It helps. It’s a set of skills you need to learn just like a specific technology. + At the very least, if you are curious and are told you do not have an anxiety disorder, at least you know. + Asking for help does not make you weak. It makes you stronger because you’ve made a decision. - Andy found comfort in knowing he had made a decision. * Great quote from John White – "I’m kind of worried about our backups, but if I go and check and ask an expert, that will make it real. And I’ll actually have a problem." * We likely will see evidence of a physical ailment like a broken leg, but anxiety, for example, is less visible. People may have worked with Andy every day and never knew he had anxiety. + Andy believes there were probably only a handful of people who even suspected there was a problem. * If the issue is not external, something like anxiety can be perceived as a lack of strength. + It seems like our society is becoming more aware of how many mental health disorders exist and that they should be treated (much like we would do for a physical ailment). * One of the ways Andy’s anxiety manifested was that he didn’t feel "hungry" like he had earlier on in his career. He didn’t have the passion to go learn something new and missed that. + Andy was not being as effective as he could have been. + "I was like a SAN that was running in a degraded fashion." – Andy Syrewicze + Andy needed to get back to where he was and find some ways to mitigate his disorder’s effects.
30:51 – Coping Strategies * Many of the strategies that work for Andy in managing his anxiety center around the concept of mindfulness. + Actually playing out his anxiety – trying to figure out the cause and what it is / what he can do about it, but if nothing, accept and move on. + Andy had to accept that sometimes he will not know what he is anxious about and that it is ok. + If there is a situation where Andy is feeling a high degree of anxiety that is preventing him from doing whatever he is trying to do (blog, make a video, etc.), he has a quick helpful exercise called 5 senses: - What are 5 things in the room I can see? - What are 4 things I can touch? - What are 3 things I can smell? - Going through your senses in this way pulls your mind from where your anxiety is into the present. + Andy also likes to do a daily journaling exercise detailing what went well during that day, what he was happy about that day, and what could have gone better. + A mental health professional may have other tools for you, and consider the list of tools as a playbook. + Medication may also be an option for you. - There’s a cultural perception of being able to take a pill to fix something as the easy way out or quick fix. * It’s too easy to say be mindful and forget how deep that actually goes. + Specific types of meditation, biofeedback, having a healthy diet, and types of exercise like yoga are all examples of applications of mindfulness practice. + Andy always had an interest in the Buddhist / Zen culture and the reliance on mindfulness. It was interesting to see these types of things come in as recommendations to help with anxiety. + Andy will meditate from time to time using the Calm app (one of his favorites). - There is a specific session in there called Panic SOS that Andy uses when he cannot function because of anxiety. - This session takes some practice but has helped a great deal. If you have never done meditation like this, we’re talking about an audio format where someone provides instructions on posture, how to breath, and teaches you to focus your attention on your breath…all in the spirit of helping you be and stay present (which breaks the anxiety loop of doom). * Andy learned that he was rarely living in the here and now through this process. + He was thinking about something technical, something related to a video game, and never experiencing right now. + Learning about this disorder has really helped with this challenge. + There are many people who would not be able to sit alone, by themselves, in a room for an hour with nothing to do. It would drive them insane. As a result of learning these new skills over the past couple of years, Andy is completely comfortable doing that and being in the here and now. + Recognizing these things about ourselves is important, and it can give us fuel to take action and make positive changes. + This reminds Nick of the deep work series (starting with Episode 141) in which we talked about taking that couple minutes between meetings and seeking to be present instead of seeking distraction (i.e. checking social media). * There are a number of apps out there like Calm. This family of apps is based on cognitive behavioral therapy. + Therapy comes in different forms, and it’s mostly cognitive behavioral these days (i.e. what is the physical reaction you’re having, is it healthy, what causes it, how we break the cycle). + This is practical advice like you’d get from a physical therapist. * Andy has wondered why some of these skills are not taught to kids in high school. + After you learn these new skills, it becomes so clear you almost kick yourself for not doing something about it sooner. + We only teach these to people who are a problem. If someone is hyperactive, they get the tools to deal with that disorder. It’s similar with anxiety. The fact is the skills are useful for everyone.
42:43 – Parting Thoughts * AmpNavigator was Andy’s first time delving into this subject in a public facing way. This podcast is only the second time. * Andy was touchy about sharing it at first, but looking at skills gained over his career (public speaking, ability to write and tell a story), Andy felt he needed to go and talk about this. * Andy has also been working on a SubStack around his experiences with anxiety and weaving in some tech too.
+ One article Andy is working on is called Mindfulness Journaling Using VS Code. There is a VS Code Journal extension that adds hot keys to easily open up mark down entries, automatically creating a folder structure for you based on dates.
+ He’s trying to teach people in tech how to deal with anxiety.
+ As of our recording, Andy did not have a name for the SubStack but thought about anxious musings as one option.
- As a society it seems like we’re coming around to addressing mental illness, but there is still work to do.
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In the outro we reference these episodes:
- Episode 140 and Eric Brooker’s disconnected vacation that helped him be present
- Episode 129 and Episode 130 with Jon Towles – there are parallels to what Andy experienced to neurodiversity.
- Don’t forget to follow Andy on Twitter. Get the latest on what Andy is up to including other ways to contact him here.
- Be sure to subscribe to Andy’s Substack to keep up with his writings on today’s topic.
Contact us if you need help on the journey.
Welcome to episode 159 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of our interview with Andy Syrewicze, discussing Andy’s shift into Technical Evangelism as a career and how the Microsoft MVP helped him get there.
Original Recording Date: 12-29-2021
Andy Syrewicze is a Technical Evangelist for Altaro Software (now part of Hornet Security). Check out part 1 of our interview with Andy in Episode 158. Get the full details on what Andy is up to and ways to contact him here.
Topics – Seeking Something Different, Proof of Work, Marketing Is Interesting, The Microsoft MVP 2:35 – Seeking Something Different * After the webinar with Simon Perryman and becoming aware of the Technical Evangelism path, Andy made the decision he wanted to pursue something like it. + The MSP didn’t want to lose him, said he was good with people, and Andy gave it a try ("ok, yeah, I’ll try that"). + Andy didn’t really like the management role but also really didn’t dislike it. It was merely not quite what he wanted to do. * Andy had started his own blog and wrote from time to time, making YouTube videos here are there also. + Andy got hooked up with the folks at Altaro who suggested he write some blogs for them, which he had been doing for a couple of years when he became the team lead at the MSP. + On a whim, Andy sent his contact at Altaro an e-mail suggesting they create a position within Altaro that covered what he was doing for them and a bit more as well as the business value of creating such a position. - The contact person said the idea was interesting, and a couple of weeks later, Altaro wanted Andy to come visit and discuss the idea. They made him and offer to be a Technical Evangelist for Altaro, and he accepted. * There was no question in Andy’s mind about wanting to pursue the Technical Evangelism path over managing a team at the MSP. + The MSP did what they could within the confines of their business model to support what Andy wanted to pursue. In the end it didn’t work out. + With Andy’s desire for Technical Evangelism, the MSP may have seen it as something they would end up losing (i.e. a billable resource), but the folks at Altaro heard only about the benefits of what they would gain.
7:55 – Proof of Work * Altaro paid Andy for the articles he wrote for them and for doing webinars on the side (before he became their Technical Evangelist). They knew he could both write and speak. * The extra money was certainly nice, but it was also extremely exciting for Andy to be doing some of the things he really wanted to do. * Andy was able to get some at bats and experience at what he wanted to do while still employed at the MSP and later used that as proof of work for what would be next for his career (easily transitioning to Tech Evangelist at Altaro). + This is similar to what Scott Lowe shared with us in Episode 153 on the "adjacent possible." + Thinking back to the moment where he to took the time to send the e-mail to Altaro, it was an instance of putting himself out there, taking a chance, and having it work out. + Andy painted a picture to his future employer of what could be based on what they already knew he was capable of doing (i.e. he made the sale of the company needing a new role and that he was the right person for it). Not everyone thinks to do this. - Andy feels like he might have been doing this within the different departments at the MSP but not to an external company like Altaro (until it happened).
12:23 – Marketing Is Interesting * Andy’s role at Altaro made him part of the marketing team as a technical resource. * The only customers Andy would interact with would be prospects (i.e. Pre-Sales). + He was experienced in Pre-Sales from his time at the MSP and mentioned this when suggesting Altaro hire him. Andy acted as a technical Pre-Sales resource for the US for the product set. It was about 80% Technical Marketing and 20% Pre-Sales. + Andy might also interact with customers and partners at conferences here and there, but he was never in a tech support type role at Altaro. * Usually IT skills progression is technically driven. At the time Andy joined Altaro, he had a lot of technical experience under his belt (including being designated as a Microsoft MVP). + In the first few years in the role and even now that he’s back at Altaro, Andy is learning more about marketing than he ever intended. - This includes elements of social media, community building, and search engine optimization (SEO). - Andy never set out to be a marketer, but that is part of the technical evangelist role. + There are parts of every role that people don’t like, but there are parts of marketing that Andy finds super interesting. - Prospect personas – who is the target audience for a product, an article, etc. - These skills were exceptionally valuable when it came to public speaking. - Instead of worrying about what he would discuss in a presentation, Andy began focusing more on the audience (something he was not as mindful of before). - This took Andy’s public speaking to the next level because he was taking his knowledge and molding it into something the audience (i.e. people with a business focus, people with a technical focus) could easily digest and understand. - Something very interesting and way more complicated than Andy ever imagined is search engine optimization (SEO), kind of like Calculus and rocket science combined.
18:36 – The Microsoft MVP * Around 2013, Andy attended Microsoft TechEd (now named Ignite) in New Orleans.
+ At this event, he got roped into the community (a networking group called The Krewe in addition to absorbing the technical content.
+ Through the contacts made in this group Andy became aware of the Microsoft MVP designation. People started asking him if he was one based on the things he was doing.
+ Andy also got the chance to get to know Keith Mayer, a Microsoft Technical Evangelist in the midwest.
- Keith was a big mentor to Andy at that point in his career, bringing him into a webinar series called Hyper-V from a VMware Admin’s Perspective.
- Andy looked at past view counts of other videos in the series and saw it was in the 150,000 – 200,000 range. It was a weird, almost out of body experience and the first time Andy had done anything at that scale. It was also a time where he felt a large amount of anxiety when doing a speaking engagement.
- This experience eventually led Keith to nominate Andy for the Microsoft MVP. Andy had to fill out an application with his contributions and describe their impact / reach for a group of reviewers.
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The MVP has different areas in which it is awarded (awarded once per year). Andy came on originally in the Hyper-V category after coming from a former VMware administration background.
- They have since changed the categories for MVP. At present Andy is considered cloud and datacenter management (includes Windows Server, Hyper-V, PowerShell, Azure, AzureStack).
- Some categories like the .NET MVP require code contributions to be considered.
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Being an MVP gets you the designation for a one year period. Each year Andy has to resubmit contributions made during the time since the previous application period, and then it’s a waiting game to see if he got into the program for another year.
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The level of effort was about the same to stay in the program after he joined Altaro compared to when he still worked for the MSP and was awarded MVP.
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Take advantage of other programs like the Microsoft MVP that you can involve yourself in:
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Cisco Champion
- Veeam Vanguard
- VMware vExpert
- Also check out Episode 36 on Customer Advocacy Programs for more ideas.
- Much like certification, the benefit is the journey (getting involved in the community, contributing content, helping others).
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Andy cannot say enough positive things about the Microsoft MVP community.
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If he doesn’t know the answer to a specific IT question, he knows someone who does.
- It’s humbling to be a part of the program. There are also times when the impostor syndrome creeps in.
- Andy feels like the MVP award was additional verification for the folks at Altaro that Andy could do the work needed to be a Technical Evangelist.
- Should we do a show on SEO (search engine optimization) to help bloggers, podcasters, and other content creators in the community? Please let us know what you think!
Contact us if you need help on the journey.
Welcome to episode 158 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of our interview with Andy Syrewicze, talking through his journey in IT from contractor for a school to experience manufacturing on into a MSP and into management. We’ll talk through how fearlessness and hunger helped Andy increase his responsibilities and as a result, his blast radius.
Original Recording Date: 12-29-2021
Topics – Meet Andy Syrewicze, Fear and the Blast Radius, Life in the Manufacturing World, Teaching the Users, Getting Cut, Brief Unemployment, MSP Life, The Hunger Games, Moving to Team Lead 2:58 – Meet Andy Syrewicze * Andy Syrewicze is a Technical Evangelist for Altaro Software (now part of Hornet Security). Follow him on Twitter here. + With the acquisition, Andy’s responsibility area has grown to more than just backup, touching e-mail security and Microsoft 365 security. * Andy had a lot of interest in computer games as a kid (with a 486 being his first computer). + He started tinkering enough to get really interested in computers in general. * In high school he took every tech class available. + They would tear computers apart in class at school, and Andy built his own computers at home (including one with a very new AMD Athlon 64). + In the summer of his junior year he went to work for his high school doing IT (desktop administration, refreshing labs, etc.). One of the first projects was upgrading Windows 98 to Windows 98 SE. + This was an interesting and unique experience in that Andy was providing tech support to some of his former teachers and other faculty who would be his teachers the following year.
8:00 – Fear and the Blast Radius * John mentions people are often successful because they have lost the fear of breaking something. People are inhibited from becoming more familiar with technology because they are fearful of breaking something. * When Andy was in high school doing desktop support, he had very little fear of breaking things and faith in himself to resolve any issue he could create. * After graduating, Andy went to work for the school full time (his first full time IT job). * Andy could resolve most issues on his own, but one time he accidentally deleted an application share from a file server (a very critical one in fact). + Andy was at one of the school’s remote sites and had to call his boss to take a look (who verified the data was gone). + Andy went to retrieve the tape to restore the data from backup. + Luckily everything restored as expected using BackupExec, but Andy learned a valuable lesson to check (multiple times) before doing things that affect data. He was probably 19 at the time this happened. * In the earliest part of Andy’s career, the lack of fear enabled him to get his hands dirty in areas where others might not have ventured. + Once you reach a certain level, one must develop a healthy respect for the data, and you become a more seasoned technology professional in similar situations. + When your blast radius is smaller, tinkering becomes ok. But when the blast radius becomes larger, exercise caution. + Andy makes the point that for some IT professionals today the blast radius could be the entire US west coast when working for a major cloud provider. + Backup is nice, but recovery is what people really want in a tough situation.
13:41 – Life in the Manufacturing World * Andy worked for the school as a full-time contractor for a couple of years. + He began doing a little work on the side during this time, picking up odd jobs. + Andy did some work for a different school system in the area and for a manufacturing company where some of his friends worked. - Andy’s friends knew the folks in IT and got him on as a contractor. This experience led to his later full-time role for a manufacturing company. * It was a big jump from supporting a school system in IT to supporting a large manufacturing company. + This was a big jump into the corporate space and had a very different user base. + Andy worked for a branch site (a single plant) at the manufacturing company and was not part the larger team that services the entire organization. The plant Andy supported had 400-600 users, and his team answered to the larger corporate IT organization. + Looking back, he is thankful he was not part of the larger IT organization. It was a good introduction to corporate culture, budgets, etc. * Andy and his team remained pretty autonomous as long as they met certain criteria with the exception of software licensing being controlled by central IT + Andy and team even ran their own Exchange server for the plant at the time. + There were sometimes mandates that came from corporate IT, but if Andy and team needed to buy new physical servers, for example, they had their own budget and reached their own decisions with very little input from corporate IT.
18:18 – Teaching the Users * Nick makes the point that while someone can be a very talented machine operator out in the shop, that person may not be extremely computer savvy (seems more prevalent in manufacturing than perhaps in other fields). + Andy agrees based on his experience. Most people knew how to open and use the programs the needed to do the job well enough, but that was really it. + Nick suggests there was an element of education in Andy’s role at the manufacturing plant to helping end users that is not vastly different than what he does now. + Andy was one of the first to volunteer to go and help people, fixing the issue for them and teaching them what to do if it happens again. The teaching aspect has always been a passion for Andy. * John points out that we learn the things we like early on and then tend toward those directions and areas as we progress.
21:19 – Getting Cut * Andy was with the manufacturing company for a couple of years. The manufacturer was in automotive supply chain, and Andy was there in 2007 around the time with the automotive industry started to struggle quite a bit. + This was around the time the housing market struggled / began to struggle too. Consumer spending in a lot of areas slowed down considerably. + Andy’s company started to struggle a bit. He was a contractor at this time (in 2007) and received an e-mail letting him know "next Friday is going to be your last day with us." - Andy refers to this as being a line item on a spreadsheet and nothing more. + Andy remembers reading the e-mail. It felt like the earth fell out from beneath him. Andy was married at the time (no children yet), but there was a very real fear that took over. + Andy started applying for any role that looked to be a fit for him in the IT space. * Andy ultimately ended up at a MSP (managed service provider) and was no longer a contractor (full-fledged employee this time). + Andy started as a System Engineer Level 1 and ended up working at the MSP for around 10 years in various roles. * The job at the manufacturing company was where he began the transition from desktop support to dabbling in server related items like Active Directory, Exchange, and Sharepoint. * The MSP really broadened Andy’s experience because when you work for a MSP you touch a lot of different stuff for a lot of different organizations. * At this point Andy was looking for a full time position (having been married not long before). + The contract positions earlier in his career allowed flexibility and multiple experience, but with priority shifts to providing for a family, the benefits that come with being a full-time employee were needed.
26:30 – Brief Unemployment * Andy was unemployed for less time than he was expecting (turned out to be only about 6 weeks). * His direct boss at the manufacturing company graciously gave him 2 weeks notice before his job ended. That was pretty impressive considering Andy had domain administrator access. He and his boss also had a great rapport. + Andy was more concerned with how he would pay rent and how he would live and didn’t have time to get depressed about it. + He was confident about what he could do but needed to find someone to pay him to do it. + There was definitely fear involved, but he didn’t let it become a focal point. + After Andy read the e-mail about his employment coming to an end he walked into his boss’ office to see if there’s anything that could be done differently. - The boss shared that every department was being asked to slash budgets by around 20-30%. Andy was the low man on the totem pole in the local IT group. - After this conversation, Andy understood it wasn’t him but rather an external factor beyond his control. + Andy got a good reference out of this situation, and it worked out well for him. * There are many who apply to hundreds of jobs and don’t hear back from prospective employers (depending on the market at the time). John has talked to a number of people and then looked at their resume only to realize the person didn’t format it correctly to highlight their top skills. + None of us tends to be an expert at finding another job (with the possible exception of contractors who have to find the next job before the end of their existing contract is up). + It’s kind of like being in sales as well as the business of your trade at the same time. + Nick believes past guest David Klee would have some comments to make on this. Listen to David’s experience as a consultant and starting his own business in Episode 119 and Episode 120. + Once John got into technical sales, he looked at his resume and job hunting in a totally different way, trying to sell recruiters on the resume. + It’s one thing to sell a technical solution that solves a problem. Don Jones advised in Episode 137 to know the problem you solve.
34:34 – MSP Life * Working for a MSP is kind of a mixed bag. They have the reputation of get as much accomplished as possible with as few engineers as possible. The flip side is you’re going to learn more about general IT than you may have ever wanted to know. * At the branch of the MSP where Andy worked, they supported several nonprofits of varying sizes with shoestring budgets. + This was the first time in Andy’s career that he truly saw the impact of his work with end users at these companies (i.e. helping these nonprofits further their purpose). * Andy moved up from Systems Engineer to Virtual Systems Administrator (or VSA). + He would get assigned organizations that were large enough to see benefit from having a Systems Administrator but did not want to hire their own. Andy was the stand in Virtual Systems Administrator for about 15-20 customers. + As a result of this change, Andy relocated to be closer to the MSP’s main office and gained experience serving customers in various industries (government, manufacturing, education, service organizations, etc.). + Andy split his time 50/50 between remote support and in-person support of the customers (most were local to the area) with the end goal of being able to support all customers remotely. + There was little to no travel involved in Andy’s previous roles.
39:25 – The Hunger Games * This was the phase of Andy’s career where he was extremely "hungry," wanting to go and learn everything he could (in new areas like storage, SANs, networking, etc.). + He would shadow other engineers frequently and ask questions about the work people did. + Andy’s management at the time recognized his ambition and gave him the opportunities to advance. Any time he was promoted was always a direct result of Andy pushing to learn more or advocating for himself with management. * By the end of his stint at the MSP, he was a Senior Cloud Systems Administrator. + The MSP owned and operated a very large datacenter running vSphere that hosted a number of customer-facing services (file servers, RDS farms, anything customers did not want to host themselves). + This highly redundant, multi-tenant environment was an area of extreme focus during Andy’s last two years with the MSP (which made for a huge blast radius). It supported about 50 customers. * For Andy, all of the growth was really about learning. * The title changes and pay raises were a nice perk to continuing his learning. He looked at the growth from the standpoint of being a provider also and what he could do to better provide for and support his family.
43:28 – Moving to Team Lead * At one point during his stint at the MSP, he was a manager. Nick remembers hearing about this from Andy’s AmpNavigator 2021 talk. * Andy was growing tired of being on call and the 2 AM phone call about something being broken.
+ He was getting tired of being the guy in the trenches turning the knobs and running the scripts.
+ Andy was already looking for what might be next for him.
+ He had become aware of Microsoft’s (at the time) Tech Evangelism team and remembers seeing a webinar with Simon Perryman.
+ Andy was hosting a weekly education session for the rest of his peers at the MSP on some technical topic or a best practice and thought it would be interesting to do this as a job.
+ At the time, Andy pitched the idea of him being in an evangelist type role to the MSP, but they didn’t like it. That would be taking someone in a role with billable time and turning it into non-billable time.
+ The company didn’t want to lose Andy, so they made him the team lead of their NetOps team. He stayed in this role for about a year before moving to his next company.
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The hardest part about moving to the team lead position was going from friendly co-worker to the person assigning tasks to others and asking people to stay after hours to fix something.
- Andy tried to make up for it by letting people come in late if they had stayed after hours (remembering his days in that same role as the break / fix technician).
- Andy managed the team’s personnel resources but also acted as a technical backstop for the team of 5-6 people.
- Career progression, whether as an individual contributor or as a manager, generally involves increasing your blast radius. That can be in the form of taking on more responsibility (i.e. going from answering questions for end users to being responsible for a large datacenter’s operations like Andy did).
- Sometimes you need to move to a bigger stage to enlarge the blast radius. And that could mean moving into management, for example.
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Any time Andy made a change in his career (new role, new company), he took time to understand the responsibilities this would require to ensure he was ok with it before saying yes.
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This goes back to Andy’s experience early in his career with deleting the application share when he was working for the school. It taught him there were consequences for certain things.
- Taking on additional responsibility without the systems in place to support the enlarged blast radius would increase the changes for mistakes.
- When thinking back on the massive datacenter he managed, Andy says N + 1 was not enough. He wanted N + 2.
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Episodes mentioned in the outro:
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Episode 76 with Josh Fidel – on the sphere of responsibility
- Episode 42 with Ethan Banks – on getting to management
Contact us if you need help on the journey.
Welcome to episode 157 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of an interview with Josh Duffney (a return guest) to discuss how the smart notes methodology can make us all better writers, its impact on a book Josh is writing, how Josh finds the time to take on so many projects, and how life at Microsoft has been since we last spoke.
Original Recording Date: 12-14-2021
Josh Duffney is a Senior Content Developer for Microsoft and repeat guest. Catch part 1 of the interview with Josh in Episode 156. Check out Episode 123 and Episode 124 to hear about the genesis of Josh’s career in IT.
Topics – The Challenge of the Blank Page, Impact on Josh’s Current Book, Differentiated and More Intense, Changing Social Media Habits, The Knowledge Worker, Finding the Extra Time, Data-driven Writing, Parting Thoughts 4:25 – The Challenge of the Blank Page * Josh has some of his smart notes in a GitHub repository (a vault containing smart notes for one of his books). * He had a project note and started to link in relevant notes. Josh would then build a workspace in Obsidian to open all the notes so he could read, review, and organize them. Then he would start to write using Ulysses or VS Code. * Smart notes make writing easier but not easy. You need more than just a few words between notes. Josh says many times what you need is the ideas to be strung together to write a clearer argument. * When considering the challenge of the blank page, Nick thinks back to George Lucas trying to write the script to Star Wars on a tight deadline. + There was a lot of impostor syndrome in the beginning, but Josh has the reverse problem right now – too many ideas to actually execute upon. - This is something that has happened to Nick and John with the podcast (so many ideas). * With Josh’s current rough draft of Reclaim, getting started can be a challenge. It helps to have an introduction and conclusion note because you need something to frame the argument before you begin writing. + Josh has to fight editing / correcting while he is writing. He’s trying to remove this from the rough draft, and at present there’s some friction in the rewriting process.
10:04 – Impact on Josh’s Current Book * The process of taking smart notes has helped Josh to understand the 175 pages he’s already written are a bit incoherent. * Josh references a tip from The Craft of Research in which the author says taking notes faster than you can sort them can cause anxiety. + Josh had been feeling anxiety for a number of months regarding the book, and he knew he had already cut out technology usage (i.e. digital minimalism). The process of smart notes has helped reduce Josh’s anxiety. + In the beginning Josh was researching and writing but not sorting. This process (smart notes) has given him the ability to sort in a way that reduces anxiety and keeps the structure there to allow completion of research and write when he is able. - Research is now a separate process from writing. Josh is planning to do research for a month and then write for a couple of weeks to catch up. * Josh has set many deadlines, and they have caused more harm than good for him. + Ryan Holiday’s advice to a prospective writer was "you can only be a writer if you can’t not be a writer." + For Josh the deadlines create a problem he cannot let go / an unnecessary urgency. But they did help him get started. + As of this recording, Josh is about a year into writing the book and is close to having a rough draft finished but feels he will need to reconstruct a lot of things to make the book more coherent.
14:04 – Differentiated and More Intense * Reclaim is different than Josh’s smart notes book in the sheer amount of information he’s putting into it. + Part 1 is about the ways technology has invaded our lives. + Part 2 is about taking back the linear mind (reading and establishing habits). + Part 3 is about how to perform deep work without taking the monastic philosophy. See also Episode 142 for more on deep work philosophies. * The amount of research Josh has needed to do for the book has been…intense. * In this book, Josh is blending some of the ideas of deep work with digital minimalism. + Josh has struggled with what is too much, whether he should split into two books, etc. * Overall it’s been a fun experience, and Josh has enjoyed sharing struggles, learnings, and triumphs. * Josh has put much of his work on GitHub to build in public and be transparent. + It holds Josh accountable, and hopefully it adds value to others in some capacity. * For a long time Josh had a single vault in Obsidian for everything. + He moved all the notes for Reclaim into its own project vault and stores other notes on writing, Azure, GoLang, etc. in a general vault. + Josh wanted to be able to open everything that is Reclaim and shut it once finished. * Nick mentioned John was the mastermind behind Nerd Journey’s Deep Work series of episodes (starts with Episode 141) and that the smart notes approach was used by John to make the outline. + Listen to the back story of how those episodes came to be, how John utilized quotes, and how he pulled ideas from the book by Cal Newport.
19:32 – Changing Social Media Habits * As mentioned in Episode 124, Josh was doing a write only experiment on social media so that he would only read and respond to posts on Fridays but could create posts any other time. + This is constantly in flux. + The experiment worked well to get him away from the tools and break the addiction. + It ultimately did not stick. What Josh does now is check social media for about 30 minutes each day. + Checking social media only one time per week made him too disconnected and isolated, but it was a great way to reset. If you’re not willing to ban yourself for a month the responding on Fridays is a good way to help reset. * In a pandemic situation, an online community may be a substitute for in-person community, and throwing that away can be much harder than when an in-person community is more accessible. + It’s fascinating how much we project our relationships onto social media. + A couple of years ago Josh decided to unfollow a lot of folks on Twitter and move them to a list as an experiment. That got him kicked out of an online community and had massive repercussions. Getting unfollowed certainly is unsettling. + People respect your disconnection from social media, but when you’re away for an extended period of time, people may feel like you’ve thrown away a relationship with them. Right now Josh is trying to find the balance. + It’s amazing how much of the psychology of in person interactions transfers to online interactions (on social media platforms). + This makes Nick think back to Episode 149 with Chris Wahl. * Josh says the changes from the first detox to now with his 30 minute window have been enough to keep him from getting addicted again. + His number of impressions / likes have gone down. When you’re away for a while the algorithm docks you. + Josh is trying to let SEO and word of mouth be the marketing instead of trying to use social media platforms for attention.
25:22 – The Knowledge Worker * Josh was doing a weekly newsletter for many months and got to about 1000 subscribers. * After the smart notes book Josh penned (which in reality took about 7 months of research), he thought about writing e-books exclusively (not a good idea). + Just writing books is painful. + Josh missed writing short form content. * Josh will be bringing back the newsletter in some form (you can find it here), but it won’t necessarily be weekly. He will use it to share some of the points to be made in Reclaim (but in online articles).
27:19 – Finding the Extra Time * Josh has recently been speaking at conferences. * Not having a smart phone allowed Josh to take back 3.5 hours of his life. * During the day he practices time blocking. Each hour has a dedicated spot. It’s about being super intentional about the things he wants to do. * A while back Josh used something called Moment to track time, but the app disappeared. Josh used Wellbeing on Android to track time on mobile devices and Rescue Time on desktop / laptop computers (not free but has a 2-week free trial). + You probably only need 2 weeks to get what Josh calls a demand analysis (which Josh heard referenced in Making Work Visibile by Dominica DeGrandis). + John invested in a TimeFlip as Don Jones mentioned in Episode 138. - Listen to John’s description of how he uses this device to track time spent on his work and measure what matters. * Josh integrates physical activity into his schedule. + There are 3 buckets of energy (emotional, mental, physical – all of these feed the other). Josh has found the physical activity is essential to maintain high productivity. + Four days per week Josh does a weightlifting routine called the 5/3/1 in the mornings. That seems to be the best time of day for Josh. + Nick asks about the concept of embracing boredom from deep work (see also Episode 144) as part of the workout. + Josh will bring his notebook with him and jot down ideas if they come to him during that time. + Lately he wants to get out of his head. It is uncomfortable to be there all the time, and Josh understands why people seek distraction. He tries to be present and enjoy the workout. + Nick thought of Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain by John J. Ratey when hearing about Josh’s workouts. * John references Your Brain at Work by David Rock. + This seems to compliment deep work, digital minimalism, and taking smart notes in that the author speaks of brain chemistry and structuring your work day.
34:44 – Data-driven Writing * In his role at Microsoft, Josh had to get comfortable with the research and writing and get comfortable with that process. There’s also the search engine optimization (SEO) side and writing for the web (which Josh has been learning a lot about lately). + Josh has had to think about how to write more clearly so search engines and people can find what he is writing. + It’s interesting and terrifying how good algorithms are at catching human behavior. + Josh is learning to use data to be a data driven writer. * Josh has also learned about information architecture and UX. + The Paradox of Choice is often cited in UX research. * It’s amazing how much you can use data to improve your writing. * Nick cites how many great book recommendations have come from Josh. + Josh mentions maybe he can publish his notes from reading different books to share with others (i.e. a SparkNotes version). + After Nick mentions samples available on Audible, Josh says there’s a concept of x-raying a book mentioned in How to Read a Book that is interesting. There’s no great way to simulate touching a physical book, but audio format is helpful for skimming. + John mentions Google Books and the ability to preview a book’s contents without reading the whole thing. + Kindle apparently has an x-ray feature worth checking out.
40:44 – Parting Thoughts * Josh wrote a course to go along with his Obsidian book.
+ It was released on a paid platform but not at the level of craftsmanship Josh wanted (being a former author for Pluralsight), but Josh decided to refund people’s money and has moved the video series to a YouTube playlist (which you can find here).
+ This was also a great way to contribute back to the community that helped Josh when he first started learning Obsidian.
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Josh has offered to give away a couple of free copies of his book, How to Take Smart Notes in Obsidian.
- We’ll take a random sampling from the people who retweet the announcement of the first episode with Josh in this series of interviews (Episode 156) and send them a free copy.
- John was not previously using Obsidian for knowledge management before he read Josh’s book.
- You can pre-order Josh’s new book Reclaim here.
- See also Scott Lowe’s thoughts on writing making us all better communicators in Episode 152.
Contact us if you need help on the journey.
Welcome to episode 156 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of an interview with Josh Duffney (a return guest) to discuss his adoption of the smart notes methodology, how it helped in both work and personal projects, how Josh reads intentionally, and Josh’s new book on smart notes.
Original Recording Date: 12-14-2021
Topics – Josh Duffney Returns, Motivation for Adopting a New Approach, Smart Notes Basics, A Critical Eye for Relevance, Changing Directions, Intentional Reading, How to Take Smart Notes in Obsidian 3:56 – Josh Duffney Returns! * Josh Duffney is a Senior Content Developer for Microsoft and has just hit his 1 year anniversary in that role as of January 4, 2022. You can also find him on GitHub. * Josh Duffney was with us in 2 previous episodes: + Episode 123 – Just Add Value with Josh Duffney (1/2) + Episode 124 – Focus, Create, and Iterate with Josh Duffney (2/2) * Can you name the only other repeat guest on Nerd Journey? * Josh has written a new book, but he wrote it on his way to write a different book. + His book is called How to Take Smart Notes in Obsidian. That is a special link for Nerd Journey listeners to get an additional discount on the book.
5:12 – Motivation for Adopting a New Approach * Josh was drowning in information. He wanted to write his first nonfiction book after writing his first technical book. + He has done a lot of work on productivity, digital minimalism, and wellbeing and wanted that to crystalize into a book. + Unfortunately Josh bit off more than he could chew at the beginning. + Josh has spent the last year trying to learn how to write the caliber of book he wants to write. This required a lot of information, and Josh could not keep it all in his head. He stumbled upon smart notes to help develop an external system that would help. * There are many schools of thought on productivity such as Getting Things Done and others. * Josh heard about the smart notes system through repeated word of mouth. He tends to be a late adopter, letting others filter out the noise. + A few years ago his manager mentioned Josh’s interest in productivity and suggested he read the book How to Take Smart Notes. + This kept resurfacing on Twitter by others, eventually getting promoted by someone whose newsletter Josh followed. At that point Josh decided to give it a shot. * After reading the book, he felt it was exactly what he needed. + It gave Josh a way to reverse engineer the process of writing. * As a content developer, Josh writes all the time in his day job. + The fear of the blank page has always bothered Josh. He has spent the last year learning how to write fast and how to de-compartmentalize phases of writing. + Right after reading comes note taking. If you have a pile of notes and a way to go back and find them, you always have an idea to write about. + This also allows a way to organize thoughts that were swirling in Josh’s head and causing anxiety. + Once you read a certain scale, you need somewhere to externalize the knowledge to reference at a later time. There is no way to keep so many mental models in your head. * The book How to Take Smart Notes is really the American publisher’s title. It was originally titled Zettelkasten, and the original translation of that is slip box (somewhat akin to a 1980s card catalog at a library). Originally the system was a pile of cards with index numbers on them and ideas. + How to think and write more productively is kind of the point of the book. + True Zettelkasten practitioners will make the same distinction on smart notes. * Josh says it is easy to get hung up on smart notes and the permanent note. It puts so much pressure on the permanent note, but really note taking should improve with iteration over time as you learn to take over time. + There’s no specific format of a smart note. It’s more about using them to think better and organize your knowledge.
11:37 – Smart Notes Basics * The basic notion is that there are several notes, each with a different purpose. + Fleeting notes – sort of like a journal or short / brief notes to capture an idea, task, or insight - Josh keeps a notebook with him at all times and uses it for fleeting notes. - These are meant to be processed within a couple of days and might generate things like reminders. + Literature notes – taking notes while you read and turning reading from a passive activity into an active activity. - This was the one Josh was least familiar with. The primary purpose of this kind of note is to get more familiar with and understand the literature itself. - The inventor of Zettelkasten would take notes on index cards as he read. Think of it like a brief summary with a page number on the index card to go back and reference / take in depth notes later. - Check out How to Read a Book, which provides a framework for marking up books (underline, write in margins, etc.). - SQ3R is a another reading comprehension method referenced as is SQ5R. The number of Rs depends on how much review you do. - Josh uses literature notes heavily when reading technical books, most recently in his learning of the Go Programming Language. + Permanent notes – notes you want to keep forever but malleable in the sense that you can rework them - These are the types of notes that go into your Zettelkasten / slip box. In Obsidian, this would be called a vault (where your knowledge base is built). * There is an entire process around connecting the notes. * John found the goal of extracting knowledge as you ingest it and predigesting it into the knowledge base as extremely interesting. + You can see all the things of interest in one place and understand these are the things you should write about. + Josh says the promise is once you have built the knowledge base you can look into it for ideas and that the majority of the work will have been done for you as you get ready to write a blog post or book. - Listen to John’s example of how putting a few permanent notes together to form a blog post might work. + Josh says you will find the truth that there is no writing. There is only rewriting. As you take the notes and bring into different texts they will need transitions, some will need more clarity, and you’ll find you can move around. + Once you get the knowledge out of your head you can externalize and move it around in a way you just can’t do when it’s in your head. * Josh’s preference – whatever medium you have consumed the information in should be the medium you use to make notes. For example, if Josh read a physical book, he would use physical note cards to start and transfer to Obsidian later. + Usually this is reserved for difficult books (200-300 page books get marked up and translated to physical notes). + For going through a tutorial or a blog post, Josh would put literature notes directly into Obsidian as he went. The literature note would then get converted later into a permanent note. - Listen to Josh’s example about doing this for the knowledge base he is building for Go lang. * Do you copy things down word for word as you come across them (literature notes) or put into your own words? + It is advised if you want to understand the material better that you put it into your own words. + Josh uses quote blocks in Obsidian if he’s taking something word for word. But the note likely would include more than just the quote to further his understanding.
20:42 – A Critical Eye for Relevance * Relevance has been the number 1 skill sharpened from note taking. Since we last spoke, Josh has taken 370 physical notes and over 400 digital notes. + He’s getting a lot better in the process of what is relevant. At first he was reluctant to rely on his brain for remembering anything. + Josh recently re-read The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains by Nicholas Carr. Our minds can always expand. + When Josh first began, he was treating himself like a computer (read / write operations, needing to consume everything into a note). His ability to determine what is relevant and important has improved over time as has ability to trust in his own intellect. - Just like any skill, this became easier to do over time. * You start to develop a critical eye for what’s worth keeping and what is not worth keeping. + For example, when Josh was learning Go programming the definition of a Go package and the Go init command seemed really important, but with repetition they turned out to be fundamental concepts. It would have made a good literature note but not a good permanent note unless Josh wanted to teach someone Go fundamentals. Over time you develop the critical pieces that need capturing instead of everything. * You also get better at paraphrasing and summarizing other peoples’ work to make your own note. * While the logical side of smart notes can make sense to people, what is it that triggers the emotional side? + Josh mentioned the smart notes approach is a great way to hedge against information overload. + One of the realizations you have as you start to take notes will be that you cannot consume everything and the rate at which you are consuming information right now is somewhat wasteful as it is going right through your head. + It forces you to slow down and take a more deliberate approach, helping you weed out the irrelevant information and better digest the information that is relevant for you. + It helps alleviate the anxiety of information overload by allowing you to better break down and digest the relevant information into something that is usable while improving your own understanding. + There’s more benefit for the time you do put in and less anxiety by focusing on what’s relevant to you. * John echoes the career benefits of this process and practice: + Quickly consuming technical information and pointing out what is different from what you already know. + Storing the information in such a way that it is retrievable when needed + Eventually generate some type of published work * "Note taking is the deliberate practice of writing." – Josh Duffney + Every time you take a note you are practicing the effective communication of ideas. * Writing a blog post is no small thing. It can have tremendous impact. In Josh’s case, the blog led to a self-published book that got him into the door at Microsoft.
27:40 – Changing Directions * Josh was working on a book called Reclaim when he wrote and published his book on smart notes in Obsidian. * Josh says he spent months re-reading the original smart notes book and implementing several different iterations of the notes system. + There was a lot of sunk cost in implementation. He kept re-designing and re-implementing the vault. + He also received good feedback from others that the smart notes topic was worthwhile. + With Josh’s career shift from being an engineer to being a writer, he saw note taking as a critical foundation for this new role. + It seemed more beneficial to pause the writing of Reclaim in lieu of honing skills with smart notes. + Josh is often single threaded while working on a project. If he realizes he is missing a skillset he will pause and take time to learn the new skill. - For example, Josh is currently reading The Craft of Research because he believes there is a gap in his non-fiction arguments. - He used writing to help him better understand the note taking philosophy / methodology. + John mentioned the idea of connected notes (i.e. notes as nodes on a graph) and the potential for these connections to lead to something publishable. + It took around 20 hours for Josh to write his first blog post (about 3000 words). + He received a lot of questions and some criticisms of the article which spurred a rewrite. + Once he made it to 5000 or 6000 words Josh realized it was no longer a blog post but was more like a book. + Josh imported about 74 notes that were written on note cards (after reading the smart notes book for the 4th time) into digital form as part of the smart notes methodology, which allows the connections mentioned earlier to surface.
31:42 – Intentional Reading * In a talk given at AmpNavigator 2021 (called "The Learner’s Rule"), Josh mentioned part of his daily routine is spending time reading. + Right now Josh reads for about 1 hour per day. + Usually he will dedicate a 40 minute block in the morning to reading, but he tries to read as much as he can. + Josh does not own a smart phone (only a light phone). A replacement for all the scrolling has been reading. + When with his family or on the weekends, Josh carries his current book with him, making marks / notes as needed when time allows. + Normally Josh would read a little of his current book after lunch each day. This has progressed into reading articles / blogs that he’s pushed to Kindle. + The smart notes methodology encourages writing 3 permanent notes per day to practice, but Josh felt that was a lot of pressure. - Ryan Holiday and Robert Greene suggest a different approach. They mark up literature notes in the book, throw it on a bookshelf, and let it sit for a time. - Josh just finished reading The Perennial Seller by Ryan Holiday and plans to let it sit for a week before taking down some permanent notes from it for the first couple hours of one morning. This may take several days, but Josh prefers batching in this way. - Josh keeps a Kanban board of all the books he is interested in reading. - Blog posts Josh reads get processed in real-time and equate to a few smart notes, but books get batched. + Josh likes to read 1 book at a time. Sometimes he will jump back and forth, but usually it is one at a time and takes about 10 days for Josh to read a book. * This process reminds John of Deep Work by Cal Newport. + The act of carrying a physical book around is interesting to John. Josh’s process is sort of like the fusion of deep work with smart notes and reading. + We take a second to speak to audio book format (which Nick loves). John mentions it is challenging to take notes on an audio book. Josh says the audio format is great for skimming. - Josh used the audio book format for reading Think Again by Adam Grant. + Josh says it is super useful to use deep work to batch note taking. Good books produce 20-30 notes that Josh writes down on a notecard and then transfers into Obsidian. The process works for him (since he is trying to write a book that crystalizes good advice), but he would not recommend it for everyone. - For example, there is no such rigorous process in place for his Go Lang work. * Josh’s notes are pretty short now but were very long when he began. + He tries to focus on what can fit on a notecard because that is how much you can hold in your brain and works well when dumping into Obsidian. + Listen to how Josh determined the max number of words he could fit on a 4" x 6" index card (around 144). + John had trouble with notes being too long when he started using the smart notes methodology as well. * Josh references a post he wrote for his Knowledge Worker newsletter called Note-taking became a full-time job, so I stopped. It surfaces a number of failures and learnings around the smart notes methodologies. * Be sure to grab a copy of Josh’s book How to Take Smart Notes in Obsidian. + The link above is a special discount for Nerd Journey listeners, so take advantage!
40:01 – How to Take Smart Notes in Obsidian * With Josh being a technical writer by trade, the focus of his book (in contrast to the How to Take Smart Notes book) is implementation of the smart notes methodology with Obsidian. * The book is an implementation guide to adopting the smart notes methodology. + Obsidian is a knowledge management tool based on markdown that allows you to link notes together very much like web pages. - Obsidian is free for personal use but also has commercial offerings. There is a mobile client you can utilize as well (which is relatively new). - Josh chooses not to use the mobile client because he has no smart phone. He utilizes layers of friction like the physical act of writing in a notebook and transcribing digitally as ways to filter what gets stored as a digital note to ensure quality. * John makes the point that taking more notes isn’t better. Taking better notes is better. It seems obvious only after someone shares that advice with you. + The goal isn’t to record everything I ever know in a knowledge management system but to keep track of things I need to be reminded of an maybe reveal connections to other things I know. + Josh references a video by Jordan Peterson on the purpose of memory. The purpose of memory is really to forget. Keep that in mind as you take notes because you’re not looking for a photographic memory. + Josh has two main drivers for his current notes: - One is the book he is working on, Reclaim, and trying to crystalize arguments that form a narrative. - The other is for learning. * A couple of months after joining Microsoft the opportunity came up for Josh to switch from the DevOps space he had known well to go into GoLang (only loosely connected). Josh would be writing documents for an unfamiliar discipline and get exposure to a new community. * The purpose of smart notes for Josh’s work is to help him learn faster. + Think about why you’re taking the notes in the first place. What is it you plan to do with them afterward? - It’s important to keep the why in mind when you pursue something. What is the goal? + Not everyone would consume information at the same rate as Josh does. Perhaps we should let the goals we have (i.e. publish a blog post every so often) determine the rate of consuming other people’s content and writing notes. + "Writing is thinking. Allow that to slow you down to understand what you are consuming much better." – Josh Duffney - See also this Tweet. * Literature notes are a great way to experience this (writing is thinking). Read a page, pause, and try to write a sentence about the page trying to summarize to see how many gaps you might have. This allows you to see the gaps you may have about the argument but think more clearly about it at the same time. * Josh recently reorganized a vault he has in Obsidian with over 200 notes for his next book. Rewriting the notes and rearranging them has helped him gain clarity. * Something so complex requires that you stand back from it enough (through writing it) to further your understanding. * It’s easy to fool yourself when you’re in your head. Josh gives a great example realizing he didn’t know enough about service principals to write a specific article on GoLang. The writing helped identify the gaps Josh needed to fill by learning more. + Teaching is understanding. And Don Jones told us in Episode 137 that teaching is repackaging.
Contact us if you need help on the journey.
Welcome to episode 155 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of our interview with Tom Hatch, digging deeper into what it was like to maintain an open source project and its ecosystem, learn about life as an entrepreneur, and what it was like to have his company acquired.
Original Recording Date: 11-12-2021
Tom Hatch is the original creator of Salt, eventually founding a company called SaltStack, which was acquired by VMware in 2020. Catch part 1 of our interview with Tom in Episode 154
Topics – Learning the Open Source Community, Open Source Contributions as Career Accelerators, Two and Three Dimensional Thinking, Advice for the Entrepreneur, Getting Acquired 3:08 – Learning the Open Source Community * When Salt began it was just Tom. He had the most commits to the project until around 2019 but had almost completely stopped working on it in 2015. * Tom built the vast majority of the core features in Salt from scratch (architected and built). The contributions from others have been astonishing. + For a long time it was just Tom running the show. But he had the opportunity to work with some amazing engineers at SaltStack who did amazing things. * The open source community was new to Tom, and he had not worked on other projects before Salt. + Through 2011, there were not a lot of contributions to the project despite people starting to use it. + Salt began in February 2011. Tom did a podcast in November 2011 and received only 11 contributions from other people to that point. + By the end of 2011 the project had contributions from over 110 people. A little bit of marketing and exposure created the spike. + Suddenly Tom was reviewing code and trying to figure out how to communicate with the contributors. * Was it a challenge to protect the goals for the project while still being collaborative and respectful to contributors? + Tom had some self-confidence issues at first. He saw himself as a guy cranking out code, not believing he knew that much. As a result, he may have accepted more advice than he should have from community contributors. + Tom advises that in all of this (i.e. working we collaborators in this way), we should be diplomatic and understand what changing one portion of the code might break. + You can very quickly become a slave to the community. Many open source leaders have talked about this. There are so many voices wanting you to do certain things you get scared to say no. + Even if you are saying no, you spend your days looking through pull requests. Tom remembers days when there were over 100 pull requests. + While the code contributions were helpful, he wanted to spend more time driving the project forward. * Much of this experience shaped his view of what he feels open source should be. In the early days open source followed the Unix philosophy. For example, think about how Apache got started. Open source is built in a distributed way. * In the last 10-15 years, there has been venture capital and corporate investment into open source. We’ve started to develop open source through a corporate lens because of the size and scope of projects out there. + Take MongoDB and Kubernetes for example. * Tom’s view is that we need to re-think how we write highly distributed software. + One of the projects he is working on inside VMware is called Idem. + This is based on POP (plugin oriented programming), a construct within Salt. + The idea behind the project is that we need to free up engineers to innovate and keep building without getting bogged down in community governance or politics as projects get larger. + With POP, it’s about how code can be merged outside the dependency library model. There are still some downstream dependencies with POP, but it allows people to attach to and extend your software without needing to talk to you. Someone can take the plugin interfaces that you create, write their own code to merge into your software, and get the full benefit of their work. - This allows the person who wrote the software to own it instead of it becoming part of someone else’s project. - Contributors will come and go. Accepting contributions also accepts a certain liability. - From a POP perspective, Tom is trying to allow contributions to his software but have other people maintain the code. He can mainstream it into his software after it has established itself on its own merit. - This is similar to how Unix worked a long time ago. - We’re writing open source software inside of a cathedral now instead of a bazaar, and we’re making the people creating the software slaves to their own community. + Tom has seen a lot of friends go nuts maintaining open source projects. * Nick’s experience with open source contributions is limited to his work on Mangle documentation.
13:47 – Open Source Contributions as Career Accelerators * Tom shares a story of a job interview. The interviewer asked him how to do something specific. Tom referenced how it could be done with a specific module and then shared he had written it himself. * One of the interviewers realized they were already using Tom’s code and shared that with the hiring manager. Tom had an offer in his Inbox before he arrived at home, which was 30% more than what he was making at the time. * You can definitely make career improvements by contributing to open source, but a lot of people are contributing to open source. + What you get by contributing today has more to do with your exposure to getting a good code review, learning how the process works, and getting your hands dirty with code. + Ten years ago if you committed to open source projects it would make you stand out. + But these days it’s less of a wow factor than it used to be. + If Tom can see someone has contributed to a lot of projects and can then go look at the person’s contributions to determine competence. + In the same light, someone can look at your activity on GitHub (including conversations) and see indications of your character. + When you contribute to open source, remember that you are there to learn and grow. You’re not there to be smarter than everyone else or boss everyone around. + Be careful what you post in publicly available forums because it is a digital trail for your personal brand. * Tom has spent time doing acting during his career. There’s a video of Michael Caine giving an acting class in the 90s in which he says "establish a personal brand." + Movies and TV shows look for a specific personality to fill the role. If you have a really good brand, those making decisions will think of you for the role. + When you write open source software, you are establishing a person brand that communicates you are a certain type of expert and that you approach problems in a specific way. + The brand you create is something that will carry you forward in your career. + Hiring managers aren’t looking for just another run of the mill engineer. They know there are a specific set of problems to solve and need people who understand the problems and can function inside the roles. + You want to be hired by companies that are looking for a brand and not just a pile of engineers. You want a company that recognizes the brand you’re able to create. + But don’t let your ego get in the way. * Tom loves working for people who know things he doesn’t know. He loves working with people who want to learn, and he loves working with people who make good friends. * Our intelligences are spheres of things we know. Tom understands he has a lot to learn and is deeply interested in others’ knowledge outside of his scope. Intelligence is coming together in a collaborative way, understanding we are here to stand together and lift.
22:29 – Two and Three Dimensional Thinking * Tom did a session at VMworld 2021 called The SaltStack Story. You can watch the replay here. + It requires you create a free Customer Connect id if you do not already have one. * Tom did a talk at SaltConf 2021 about open source in the enterprise, and it encompassed 2 and 3-dimensional thinking. * We need to account for a very big ecosystem. + Take Tom’s example of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn. + Someone thinking 2-dimensionally has the blinders on and is hyperfocused on things directly in front of them. + To think 3-dimensionally is to look at things more broadly and build things that function inside of a broader ecosystem. We need to think 3-dimensionally about open source software because they are critical to driving software adoption in the modern world. + If you’re creating proprietary software and not seeking an understanding of how open source software is driving people to your proprietary software, you may be missing the boat. + Consider overall strategic objectives of your software solution and the components of that objective which need to draw people to the solution in an open source way as well as in a proprietary way. + You must understand the nature of open source development vs. proprietary development. - Tom makes an interesting point about the year of the open source desktop. - The overall product strategy must take into account multiple veins and aspects of users. It’s not just a user problem. It’s an ecosystem problem. + We need to build software that builds communities and ecosystems. This is 3-dimensional thinking. - Who do I need to address with open source software? - What communities do I need to interact with? - What do I need to build on top of? - What are the strengths and weaknesses I get from utilizing this open source software? - Who are target customers driving this development toward? - How do I compensate for the liabilities I inherit from using open source? + The companies doing this well are the trillion dollar companies. That is the huge shift Microsoft made. They embraced open source, drive developer adoption, understood working in a larger ecosystem, and were ultimately able to accelerate their own solution architecture development by adopting open source. They created trust in markets where it did not exist before. - Apple may not say it, but they use tons of open source software inside MacOS. They did it with an understanding of the liabilities they inherited. * Nick thinks of participation in communities outside of your day job as analogous to the freemium version of a software package that drives you toward the paid version (a new job) – which is 3-dimensional thinking. + Your contributions make a brand that establishes you as part of a ecosystem which drives your career forward in a highly productive way. + Going to work and doing only what you’re told to do is 2-dimensional thinking.
31:31 – Advice for the Entrepreneur * If Tom could go back and give himself advice, he wouldn’t say anything. He needed to be on the path he was on and is grateful for the struggle. + This has given Tom more than any monetary success ever could have. + He is at peace with his struggles and his mistakes. + One of the most important parts of being human is understanding the struggles you have can be some of the most beautiful things in life. * Tom runs into a lot of people who are / want to be entrepreneurs. + He routinely provides advice to these folks, encouraging them to call him in a month. They almost never call him back, and none of them got anywhere. + You need tenacity and to accept the fact that others may think what you are doing is nuts. It also might actually be nuts. + Tom is working on a few things right now where he feels like he’s nuts / has people tell him he’s nuts. * Roll with the punches and walk through situations. Accept that things will not go the way you want all the time, and be willing to learn and grow. + Always be willing to look at things from a different angle. + Where you think you’re going isn’t where you’re going to be. Stop thinking it is. + Have goals, a vision, and a plan. Drive toward them. Accept that waves will push you in different directions. + When you go in a different direction, accept it, and understand where you are. Look around. Realize you know more about the lay of the land. How will it change your thinking? * What new opportunities are out there now? * While you build, don’t close doors. + We write software that makes it hard / blocks us in. Take 30 more minutes and consider not closing that door. + If you leave those doors open, you’ll have more opportunities, and you will be able to see the big picture. That’s what you have to do as an entrepreneur. - Listen to Tom’s observations of entrepreneurs who missed the big picture but had a win with their first venture. + If you want to be a good entrepreneur, don’t bet on luck. * Every time something goes wrong, there is some good in it. You have to find it and figure it out…because that is where the real opportunities are.
37:50 – Getting Acquired * Tom explains to his daughters that his job as a dad is to do everything he can to raise them so they can be self-sufficient humans with self-confidence. + Nothing will make him happier than for them to have their own lives. * With SaltStack getting acquired, Tom’s baby has gone off to college. It is able to run itself to a large degree. + Tom is still doing a ton of work around SaltStack these days, but he doesn’t have to be as hands on with day-to-day functionalities. + His goal, like a good parent, is for the project to not need him and be self-sufficient. + This opens up opportunities within VMware for Tom to "have more kids." He’s able to work on things like POP and Idem as mentioned earlier that enrich the Salt ecosystem. * Tom is not a big social media guy, but you can find him on LinkedIn or as thatch45 on most social media platforms.
Contact us if you need help on the journey.
Welcome to episode 154 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of our interview with Tom Hatch, the creator of Salt and founder of SaltStack. Tom will share how he got into the industry through a love for public speaking, tips for interviewees and interviewers, and share the difficult challenges along the way.
Original Recording Date: 11-12-2021
Topics – Meet Tom Hatch, A Love for Public Speaking, Interviews and Finding the Passionate Few, Learning to Interview Other People, The Intelligence Community, Stepping into Automation (The Birth of Salt), Working Yourself to Death, Difficult Changes 3:50 – Meet Tom Hatch * Tom Hatch is the original creator of Salt, eventually founding a company called SaltStack. + With SaltStack being acquired by VMware in late 2020, Tom works as a Senior Staff Engineer, moving things forward with the SaltStack group. + Tom’s background is entrepreneurship, business management, and software development. * Tom wasn’t raised a nerd and did not really get into technology until he was in his late teens, building computers. He learned to write software in his mid 20s as part of a career shift. * Tom had started down a business management path. After his first startup failed, he realized how much he liked working with computers. + He spent a lot of time learning about software and learning how Linux worked to better understand how computers worked. * Back in 2007 Tom got a job at Red Hat as an instructor (first real tech job out of college). The company flew him all over the place. + Tom was teaching classes on Red Hat Linux and administering the Red Hat Certified Engineer exam. It was a lot of fun. + Tom ended up dropping out and not finishing his bachelor’s degree. He heard about a local company that did Red Hat training and sent the company his resume out of the blue to see what happened. + Tom was surprised when the company called him in for an interview. He was asked to teach people how Linux permissions worked, and that was the interview. + At the end of the interview the guy who owned the company said Tom’s technical skills needed some work but that he could talk, which was really hard to find. They were going to send Tom to a class, and if he passed the test over it he would be hired as an instructor. + Tom was thrilled, wanting to get a good job. He was sent to a Red Hat Certified Engineer class. + Previous to this, Tom had not been a Systems Administrator but just tinkered now and then. + After studying his brains out, he passed the test. Tom didn’t realize at the time that very few people pass the test on their first try. + As promised, the company hired Tom. * His first assignment was to teach a class in St. Louis. At the time he was pretty scared. The night before the class started he wasn’t sure he would be able to talk for a full week on the topics. + Once he started teaching, it was magic. He kept talking the whole week. + Tom said this was one of those life moments where he realized there was something he was really passionate about and something he was good at doing. + At the end of the class, someone put into the review that it was refreshing to have someone with a PhD in the subject (which Tom didn’t have and never said he did). + He left that week feeling like "I can do this." It was a transformative experience from just a guy wanting a good job to break into tech. All of a sudden Tom had a certification, was getting great reviews, and was becoming someone who can administer the exam. The level of transformation was mind boggling.
9:26 – A Love for Public Speaking * Tom has always loved public speaking, even when he was a teenager, and any opportunity to give presentations is something he would seize. * Tom started a company right after getting married in his early 20s doing media duplication which went under. + Once he sold everything, he relocated the family and went to Southern Utah University because they let him in. + Tom started taking a class, and the professor stopped showing up. The first time this happened, Thom thought nothing of it. When it happened again, Tom told everyone he would teach the lesson because he had read ahead. + The professor only showed up for roughly 1/3 of his classes that term, and Tom taught the remainder of them. He was written in as best Computer Science Professor that semester. + Does this mean Tom is "broken that way" or that he has a superpower? Nick feels it is the latter. * The trick to learning things quickly is to not worry too much about learning them quickly. + Tom likes to wander around a subject and dive in deep. + One of the things they would do at SaltStack is hire people with a passion for the subject matter. + If you have a passion for the subject, if it means a lot to you, it will be something you will dig into deep.
12:47 – Interviews and Finding the Passionate Few * The interview process followed at SaltStack helped find passionate people. * This would start with surface level questions. Depending on how well the person answered, the interviewer would dig deeper until a candidate ran out of steam. * You can tell someone is passionate because they independently went deep. The passion matters a lot more than just learning quickly. * The passion is something internal and that drives a person emotional. You develop a depth of understanding about the foundations of the technology you’re working with, which is exciting to Tom. * What kind of answer to a question you don’t know the answer to communicates you have the passion and desire to go find out? + It’s about how much they take personal ownership for their answers. + "I don’t know is one of my favorite things to hear in an interview." – Tom Hatch + Every now and then you interview someone who refuses to say they don’t know (which acknowledges shortcomings). You don’t want to hire them. + Tom wants to hear where someone’s knowledge ends but even more than that wants to know that someone will take personal ownership and accountability for who they are. This means they will be an upright person who can be relied upon. + You can’t count on someone who can’t own their own self and where they are in life. * Nick recently saw a Reddit thread where someone admitted to lying about their skillset in interviews and ended up getting the job who was not sure what to do. * Tom says you can do a lot with confidence in the interview process. + He has interviewed a number of people who have been at the VP level who were really good at the interview but didn’t actually know what they were doing. It was their confidence that got them previous roles. + In situations like this Tom likes to ask more questions. He’s called up former employers of the super confident that advised against hiring these folks. + Watch out for overconfidence, and be willing to call people out when they don’t know how something works. A sniff test may be in order. - This isn’t about being rude to the person but finding out what they do and do not know. - It’s so much harder to get rid of someone if you have made a hiring mistake than it is to hire a new employee. * Even though a job requirement may say a certain certification is needed, do not let it keep you from applying. + You’re selling yourself short by not giving it a try. You apply anyway, and if they don’t call you back, ok. Don’t worry about it. + So many of us are afraid to step up to a challenge put in front of us, and we’re afraid of being rejected. + Being rejected is one of the most beautiful things in the world. Tom loves being rejected because there really is a silver lining to it. You learn something and may have dodged a bullet. + Most people step back when told no and think "I’m not good enough." But it doesn’t mean that. It means the puzzle piece didn’t fit. Go find some other part of the puzzle.
21:18 – Learning to Interview Other People * In 2008 Tom was laid off from his job as an instructor. He worked for a company called Applied Signal Technology, a US Intelligence community contractor (to 3-letter government entities) that was later acquired by Raytheon. * During this time Tom worked with some of the most brilliant engineers. The way they interviewed allowed Tom to begin to understand how to do it. + These folks would bring a candidate in and put them through a series of panel interviews to grill the candidate. But it was always done in a respectful way. + They were looking for technical competency, but there were still some shortcomings in the way these people interviewed. + Most of the engineers Tom worked with were fresh out of college, and they would ask a lot of introductory questions. + It’s important to look for a mixture of knowledge and wisdom in a candidate, but the engineers Tom mentioned were extremely knowledge focused. * At SaltStack Tom started using this model but augmented it, trying to add elements to find passion, experience, and pivoting from technical questions to understanding how someone is going to navigate a difficult task. + What you get from this is some insight into how the person will function inside a specific organization or team. + A number of times Tom has passed over someone with more technical knowledge and experience only to land on someone with less because he was able to determine that was the person he needed the most instead of the one who impressed him the most. * There’s a difference between an interviewer being aggressive compared to disrespectful. * Also remember you’re interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you. This is tech. If you don’t want to work with that person, don’t. There are jobs out there.
25:54 – The Intelligence Community * Working for the intelligence community was a great job. * The initial interview was targeted toward technical capabilities, but after that an office manager shared with Tom that the role required a top secret security clearance and what that would entail, stating if any of that was a problem he would not be able to keep the job. * It took almost 5 months to complete the security clearance and 2 weeks spent filling out all the paperwork before that. + In the end, it was incredibly thorough. + The checks are often looking for liabilities that could be exploited. + Those who have betrayed the intelligence community often times have had money problems and drug addictions (many other issues stem from these). * Nick has heard this kind of clearance opens a lot of doors for people. * The work Tom did as part of having that clearance was intense but also deeply satisfying. * Tom was writing software to automate different things. He was on a team of brilliant people. + They were helping with top level terrorist situations happening at the time, and it was exciting and inciteful. Though he could not discuss any of the details even with his family, he felt honored to work on that kind of stuff.
30:04 – Stepping into Automation (The Birth of Salt) * Tom was working on systems automation in the early days of DevOps. * After leaving the intelligence community, he worked for a small startup called Beyond Oblivion. At the end of 2011, they failed as a company. + Tom was working there as the Infrastructure Architect and used Puppet to automate all of the Linux systems. * In February 2010, Tom had a brain tumor removed. The left side of his tongue is paralyzed as a result, and the left side of his brain stem has been compressed. + His left vocal cord is paralyzed. + He could not talk for about 2 years as a result of this and could barely whisper. * Tom had been playing around with fan out command and control since college, and he had iterated on it a few times. + He got approval from the company to make an open source project which contained a fan out technology that was crazy fast. + Someone at work mentioned to Tom he could do a better job than Puppet. Tom said no, feeling he would have to write a programming language for this and would also have to grow a beard (listen to the story about why a beard seemed fitting). + He figured out a way to do this without authoring a programming language, adding this into Salt for declarative idempotent systems management. + The office director came to Tom and stated everyone hates Puppet. This person knew Tom was working on something that might be better. When Tom said it was something he was working on for fun, the person said, "it’s not for fun anymore. Make it work." + The next 1.5 months was spent making it work to properly automate systems. + That drive is what got Tom over the line to get Salt to function. + There’s a lot to be said about having a real user to drive development. + There is nothing like the pressure of having to make something work.
34:42 – Working Yourself to Death * This point Tom was getting up, going to work, coming home, spending time with family for a little while, and working on Salt until the wee hours of the morning…repeating this routine day after day from late 2011 until sometime in 2014 when Tom ended up in the hospital with heart problems. + He had to dial things back a little as a result. + Nick references the interview with Keiran Shelden on You, Your Health, and the Datacenter. + In the tech industry, we don’t always keep health at the forefront. * It is an insane amount of work maintaining an open source project, but the reality is you can take care of yourself and work really hard. + Finding that balance is really important. Balance is hard, and that’s just life. + A good life is a balanced life. + If you’re not trying to find balance, you’re not owning your own shortcomings, you’re not being honest about the problems in front of you, you’re not finding balance. + It’s worth it to dial things back and constantly evaluate. + Ask yourself… - What’s really going on out there? - How does this stuff really work? + What is really happening in the world isn’t what is in the news. It’s not what is in the conspiracy theories. - It’s a bunch of human nature. People are crazy and do silly things. + This world is complicated. Let it be complicated, and try to live a happy life.
38:16 – Difficult Changes * It was hard for Tom to make changes, and he doesn’t feel like he did it as well as he believes he should have. * He was the CTO of SaltStack at the time, and there was a great deal of growth involved in being a CTO. * Tom made a lot of mistakes along the way. Deep down he just wanted to be an engineer.
+ It was incredibly scary and intimidating to have to fire someone, to figure out how to make payroll, and to go into a board meeting and start yelling at people.
+ He didn’t have the fortitude to do what he felt should have been done, which is a big regret.
+ Tom realized he was hiding from a lot of the aspects of running a business by focusing so much on the code.
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Tom had to step out of the code and learn monetization strategies, for example. It was switching gears, realizing it was not just dialing back on the amount but that there were new things he needed to learn. He needed to stop chasing the comfortable path and start chasing the discomfort.
- Tom had to understand how to get things accomplished without him being the driving force behind it or the only one doing it. He needed to understand what drives sales and monetization of software and where automation fit.
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Preventing working yourself to death is not just about dialing back the hours. If you’re working yourself to death, there is something else driving it.
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Are you desperate to get out of a situation?
- Is it because you feel a weight of responsibility you shouldn’t feel?
- Is it because you’re passionate about the wrong things?
- It’s more about trying to find the root problem.
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When Tom got out of the hospital, he knew he had to fix things. But he didn’t know what the core thing was he needed to fix.
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He didn’t get it fixed for another 5 years.
- The core thing was not code, which is where his obsession was. It was the problems in his own personal life he needed to clean up (how he viewed himself, responsibilities to his family, difficult personal situations, etc.).
- Tom was working himself to death to escape from other personal problems he didn’t have the guts to look at.
- Nick compares this to root cause analysis for the full human, perhaps the hard work we do not always want to do.
- It requires looking at yourself with brutal honesty and recognizing what needs cleanup. But at the same time, you can’t beat yourself up too much.
- Recognize you may have to do hard things to resolve the problems. Only then will you be able to find your path and find the inner peace that allows you to sleep at night.
- That stuff is what’s really hard, but often times if you’re being driven to an unhealthy place, there’s something unhealthy driving you there.
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For further reading based on the intro and outro of this episode, check out:
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Episode 42 and Episode 43 with Ethan Banks and John’s reference to the Dunning Krueger Effect
Contact us if you need help on the journey.
Welcome to episode 153 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of our interview with Scott Lowe, tackling topics like time management, generalists and specialists, moving into a new focus area, and thoughts on community.
Original Recording Date: 10-21-2021
Scott Lowe is a Principal Field Engineer at Kong and has been with the company since mid-May 2021. Find Scott’s blog at https://blog.scottlowe.org/, and check out part 1 of our interview with him from Episode 152.
Topics – The Time Management Crunch; Generalists, Specialists, and Adjacencies; Thoughts on Startup Life; The Full Stack Career Journey and Closing Thoughts 2:53 – The Time Management Crunch * As projects get larger (i.e. taking on things like writing books), how do you change your focus and manage time effectively? * Scott has talked quite a bit about time management but still feels like it is an area in which he could improve. Maybe the thinking you could improve is part of this and what drives us to continue to gather knowledge. * It’s all about tradeoffs. Earlier in Scott’s technology career he made the decision to minimize the amount of TV he watched. * Family is a big priority for Scott. He would spent an hour or so with the family each evening. + One of the things he liked to ensure was that his family had dinner together every evening to talk about what happened during the day. It was a nice way to stay connected to his kids, even if they didn’t care or understand what he did every day. + The process of sharing what was important let the kids know they were important. + Often times the family would watch a show together or read a book together. + Once the kids went off to do their own thing, he went back to write a blog post or work on his book, for example. * Over the course of an evening you could spend 3 or 4 hours sitting in front of the TV doing almost nothing. + Part of that time could certainly be used to bond with family, but there is likely some amount of time to use for other things. * Back when he had to go to the office, Scott would pack his lunch and work on something of his own choosing during that time (learning something new, a personal project, etc.). * Look at what you are doing with your time, and ask yourself if it could be used more effectively for your career. + Many people with commutes would listen to podcasts during their commute, for example. + Scott hasn’t had a commute in 10 years but recently started listening to podcasts again while walking his dogs. * Ask yourself if you’re making the most of the time when you do spend it on building your career. + Make sure you’re not just busy for the sake of being busy. Don’t spend all your time tweaking your productivity system. Scott has been there. + There are ways to track your tasks (to-do list, a system like Getting Things Done) and ways to save things to come back to later (i.e. a helpful URL to read, etc.). - Build systems to ensure the least amount of mental expenditure so you’re not worried you will forget to do something later. * Then there is what’s next. + This has come up a lot when people want to learn something new but feel they are super busy in their day job. + There’s no silver bullet here. Scott tends to look for trends that he sees emerging. The only way to this is to read quite a bit. - Scott uses a RSS reader to track around 150-200 blogs regularly and scans for trends in what people are talking about in their articles, looking for how this impacts what he has already learned (i.e. does it add to it, extend it, etc.). This is how you decide what to do with the time. * To review, there are 3 aspects: + Finding the time + Making the most of the time - Nick recommends minimizing distractions here. + Decide what to do with the time using the lens of what’s next * Scott says right now there are so many things he could go after. + He has to limit what he pursues at present to those things more applicable to his day job. This would be things that are only one adjacent area away at most. + Scott and his wife have no children at home right now, which makes independent exploration a bit easier. + When he did have young kids at home, Scott made the decision not to travel so he could connect with them. + You can prioritize family time appropriately, but there are spaces of time you can find to listen to a technical podcast while you work out or exercise, for example. There will be ways to still invest in yourself.
15:00 – Generalists, Specialists, and Adjacencies * Scott has debated this with people in the past, feeling like there may have been an episode of Geek Whisperers on this topic.
+ There’s a concept of the pie-shaped skillset and a T-shaped skillset.
+ The T-shape usually means you are super deep in one area but have some knowledge of a number of others.
+ The pie shape usually indicates a deep expertise in one area ends up leading you into the next area of expertise.
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Scott feels like the debate of generalist vs. specialist is a non-debate and that it is taken in the context of time.
- Over the course of his career Scott has done storage, virtualization, cloud computing, operating systems, some programming, racking and stacking of servers, help desk support, etc.
- Looking at all of this holistically you might say Scott is a generalist. But at any one point in time he was focused in the specific area and whatever skillset he was preparing to do next.
- When Scott was focused on storage and the opportunity came to shift his focus, he didn’t forget everything he knew about storage. He built onto it knowledge of networking, virtualization, and other things.
- As IT Professionals we cannot afford to be static. Technology is not going to stop…even when the robots take over.
- Technology is constantly changing. If you call yourself a Technology Professional, your profession is something that is constantly changing. You have to be prepared to change as your profession changes. "If you don’t like change, you will like irrelevance even less." – army general
- If you don’t embrace the change you will get left behind and miss out on the things that could make your career amazing. We need to be prepared to see opportunities for ourselves. Be watching and looking for those opportunities.
- At any given time you will be specializing in something, but over the course of time, you will likely end up a generalist due to specialization in a number of areas.
- Scott believes there will be 1,2, or maybe 3 areas where you will be deeper than others. But he believes you can cultivate that depth.
- He does not know as much about vSphere as he once did but has learned a great deal about AWS and Kubernetes.
- "Implementation details may change, but concepts will still apply." – Scott Lowe
- A GSX VM is not so different from an AWS EC2 instance.
- When asked how to learn new things, Scott advises focusing on the concepts first.
- Greg Farrow of Packet Pushers said you can learn about how Cisco does BGP, for example, but when you switch to a Juniper device you will have to learn how they do it. But if you learn BGP concepts first (i.e. transferrable knowledge), the implementation details become easier regardless of the vendor’s implementation.
- The reality is that very few people will learn by reading a bunch of RFCs.
- Most people will learn by seeing how the RFCs are put into practice by choosing a specific implementation of it (i.e. a vendor flavor). Coming into this with a concept centric focus will allow the mind to separate a command Cisco uses for some configuration with what is actually happening behind the scenes (the underlying concept).
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The right time to move into what’s next is a tough one to answer. On one hand waiting until you’re ready may be too late. There is a certain level of readiness you need before making the leap, but that level will depend on someone’s comfort level with being uncomfortable.
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Scott might not encourage someone to make a radical shift early on in their career unless they were in some way prepared for that change.
- Scott references So Good They Can’t Ignore You by Cal Newport that talked about finding opportunities by going very deep in an area and proceeding into the adjacent possible for new opportunities.
- Scott is also planning to read Deep Work by Cal Newport soon.
- For more on Deep Work, check out our 7-part review of the book starting with Episode 141 and concluding with Episode 147.
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Here’s an example. Suppose you’re a hard core network expert, have designed LANs and WANs, and worked with multiple vendor implementations.
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If you see Kubernetes come along and decide you want it to be your focus but have not done any prep work, Scott sees that as the equivalent of jumping into the deep end of a pool without knowing how to swim.
- On one hand, don’t wait until you’re ready because there is always a fear and discomfort when you do something new. At the same time you need to lay a foundation.
- This can be as simple as making connections between concepts in the new area and the area you already know.
- To you, Kubernetes will look like a new kind of network because Kubernetes does networking differently. Take the knowledge you have and expand it a little to learn (incrementally) about pods, CNI, and services that are Kubernetes concepts.
- You can gradually go deeper from there.
- That prep work is in the adjacent possible (right next to what you’re doing right now so you can build connections to things you previously didn’t know which gives you a foothold to go and do something new).
- For our thoughts on generalists vs. specialists, check out Episode 26.
29:57 – Thoughts on Startup Life * The size of a company and age / maturity of a company align differently to people’s preferences. For Scott, he enjoys the dynamic nature of a smaller company and the ability to do different things. * Scott joined VMware in 2013 right after the Nicira acquisition (company was around 13,000 at the time). He had been at EMC, which was at around 50,000 people. + You could feel the difference in company policies. It wasn’t highly stratified and even less so in the Nicira group Scott joined. Martin Cassado called it the pirate ship (the networking and security business unit). - Scott could speak at marketing events, speak to engineers and product management about the product direction (NSX), and huddling with the CTO team on structure and roadmap of the product. - This was a lot of fun for Scott, and he got to work with a dynamic group of individuals. * When Scott left VMware in 2018, it was for small company called Heptio that had around 50 employees at the time. + The field engineering team did pre-sales, professional services, marketing events, product development, etc. One of Scott’s teammates built a tool for customers that turned into a popular open source project. + They wrote code, built features, and it was super dynamic. * This is one of the things Scott likes about working at Kong. They are at over 300 employees now. + It might be building out a reference architecture, building an infrastructure as code lab, or something else entirely. + For Scott the dynamic nature is a great fit, but it might not be a fit for everyone. For others, a larger company with more well-defined roles may be attractive, and that’s ok.
35:07 – The Full Stack Career Journey and Closing Thoughts * Be sure to subscribe to Scott’s podcast Full Stack Journey. + Nick was on Episode 58 of Full Stack Journey to talk about lessons learned running Nerd Journey while John needed to step away. * Scott shares some advice he previously shared on an episode of The Geek Whisperers many years ago. + Amy Lewis asked Scott to share 1 lesson he wishes he had learned earlier. Scott believes his answer was don’t underestimate the power of your community. + This is something many of us may be struggling with as a result of the pandemic. We’ve come to rely on working in disconnected fashions. + We all have personal or professional communities that we can tap into which will help us succeed. This is a lesson Scott feels like he did not learn early enough in his career. - At times he didn’t want to ask for help. The reality is there are a number of great people out there who would be willing to help you succeed if they are able. - Don’t underestimate that or let yourself grow too cynical. - The collaboration between you and someone else allows you to do better than you could have done on your own. * If you want to follow Scott, reach out to him on Twitter @Scott_Lowe. His DMs are open. + Scott blogs at blog.scottlowe.org + He’s active in the Kubernetes, CNCF, and other cloud native Slack communities. + Scott’s podcast, Full Stack Journey, talks about the full stack of technologies available in today’s datacenters.
Contact us if you need help on the journey.
Post-Edit Show Notes Welcome to episode 152 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 1 of our interview with Scott Lowe, getting his thoughts on life as a principal engineer, and progression from technical instructor to blogger and writer.
Original Recording Date: 10-21-2021
Topics – A Principal Engineer, Thoughts on People Management, The Technical Classroom, Sharing Information with a Purpose, Paid to Write, Blogs to Books 2:41 – A Principal Engineer * Scott Lowe is a Principal Field Engineer at Kong and has been with the company since mid-May 2021. Find Scott’s blog at https://blog.scottlowe.org/. * Scott has been working his way up through the ranks as an individual contributor over the years. He left VMware in 2018 to join Heptio as a Staff Engineer. + They were a small company of about 50 people at the time Scott joined, and there was a roadmap for going beyond Staff level. + Moving up beyond Staff level was to be a leader without being a manager. + When Scott came back into VMware after the Heptio acquisition he entered at the Senior Staff level. The role is about how you’re helping others in their roles (mentoring other engineers, architects). * At Kong, Scott is one of 3 Principal Engineers. The path of advancement as an individual contributor would be Distinguished Engineer and then Fellow from this level. + The Principal Engineer is about how you’re influencing your team, driving best practices and efficiencies for the company. Are we interacting with others in the greater industry and becoming leaders within the industry. + This trend continues beyond Principal. Distinguished and Fellow are considered more career-level achievements. It’s the culmination of work and experience in the industry. Scott is excited to pursue these but has a lot of work to do. + For Scott, the Principal role is really about leveling up all the people around him, sharing his knowledge and what he learns, making sure others are adequately prepared for their endeavors. + A Principal role can be in pre-sales, post-sales, or roles that are a mix of each. Scott’s role is mostly post-sales. Think of it like being within a professional services organization, but the main metric is not utilization. It’s more about making an impact for the overall organization and could be things like assisting marketing with materials, supporting a conference or community meetup, creating a reference architectures, etc. * Is the Principal role like a team lead or tech lead? + In some organizations you might look at Staff / Senior Staff / Principal as a tech lead / practice lead. It’s not a given but rather "could" be that way. - Scott’s team has not chosen to embrace this because there are pros and cons to that approach. - Sometimes you’ll see tech leads divided up based on a specific technology area, but it could also be divided up by industries like Healthcare, FinServe, etc. - It’s a matter of finding which is the right fit at the right time during a company’s growth stage. Structures may have to change to accommodate growth.
9:02 – Thoughts on People Management * Scott said staying an individual contributor may have been partially due to fear of failure. He knows he can and has done well as an individual contributor. + Scott has had opportunities to do amazing things in his career and plans to continue to do amazing things as long as he’s able. + Scott knows how to be a leader while still being an individual contributor. + Scott says his wife is his people interaction spirit animal (perhaps a Sherpa), and he’s talked to her a great deal about different situations. She can strike up a conversation with anyone, and her insights have taught him a great deal. + Scott thinks his focus on enabling others to be successful could help him become a people manager. He believes a manager to be someone whose primary role is to clear the way for team members to do amazing things, making sure people have the time, runway, and resources. + Scott has shied away from being a people manager primarily because his greatest job satisfaction is found in being close to the technology. Getting too far away from it might cause him to lose passion and zeal to figure out how things work and a way to explain it to others.
11:53 – The Technical Classroom * Scott has been passionate about computers and technology even before his first few jobs. * Scott got a job for a company that was training pharmaceutical salespeople in the 1990s. The salespeople would carry around laptops with software that had to be launched and then used a dial up connection to synchronize database information on their customer visits. + The company was particular about skills as an instructor. If you were not training a customer, you were training on how to be a better instructor. They also wanted instructors spoke the customer’s language. + The company would have instructors do ride-alongs with the customer to learn their terminology and jargon so it could be leveraged to train the salespeople. * Scott traveled around carrying several giant laptops and trained a number of people. * Windows 95 was about to be released, and his company wanted people to train on it. Scott volunteered to do the training and went deep on how it worked, how it was different than what had been used previously. + Scott found that the teaching more so than the instructing was extremely enjoyable. * He then left to work for a company that did Microsoft training and became a Microsoft certified trainer, delivering technical courses to people looking to get certified. + The company Scott was working for had an interesting relationship with a VAR (value added reseller). Instructors would consult for the VAR as time allowed, and consultants from the VAR would come teach courses when they had time. This is how Scott got a taste for consulting, which has been a large part of his career. * When interviewing a number of years later with Craig McLuckie for a position at Heptio, Scott was asked if there was a theme to his career (not having thought much about it before then). + He told Craig it was education and teaching people. Even as a consultant, there was an element of it. For Scott it’s about sharing knowledge and making sure others are equipped to do amazing things. * Scott never considered a career as a classroom teacher in a high school or other institution. Scott’s wife was a teacher before she became a real estate agent, so he had some perspective on that life. + His love was for the technical classroom. * For Microsoft classes, the curriculum was well defined. You had to attend the course before teaching it. + Scott was able to leverage his own style and judgement within the curriculum to get good reviews from students. * If you want to teach someone else something, it’s important to understand how you learn but know there are other styles and modes of learning. + Some students were referred to as Lewis and Clark-ers because they might be off exploring when it was not time to work on a lab exercise (i.e. tinkering on the computer when the instructor was talking / explaining something). + Scott recognizes that he has to go off and explore things when learning something new. As he taught others and recognized the tendency in them he was able to tailor his teaching to address that. - "If you’re off exploring right now, pay attention." – Scott Lowe + Scott learned many things from his wife’s experience in teaching that informed his style of conveying education to others. * Nick makes the point that there are educational opportunities out there for all of us. We can teach others we work with as well as learn from them, which makes us all better. + That process of sharing expertise over the course of your career is part of the expectation of being in a senior individual contributor role. There is an expectation for you to share knowledge. + The more you can share with and empower people on the team, the more you will be seen as a leader on that team. + Nick makes the comparison to someone with a jar of silly putty and using it filling holes.
23:27 – Sharing Information with a Purpose * Some people seem to feel like the more they hold onto the knowledge they have the more valuable they become and are therefore more valuable to the company. + Scott thinks the more you tie yourself to certain information the more you limit yourself. Sharing the information with others can free you up to go on and do other things. + Scott references "the best way to get yourself promoted is to make yourself replaceable." - If you have empowered others to step in and take your role you can be freed up to go on and tackle something else. - At the same time the "something new" can produce fear, playing on our loss aversion (losing what we have in our current role). * This desire to share information is responsible in some way for Scott getting into blogging, even if he didn’t realize it. + Scott started writing on his site in 2005. For a time it was an internal only site that was part of his consulting business which ran on his own server infrastructure (a WordPress site). + It began as a way to document things he had figured out to come back and find later. + Scott’s public blog today serves the same purpose (i.e. go find how he did something), but looking back, what drove him to make the site public was sharing the information with others. *Over time knowledge gets compacted down and becomes a bedrock. It’s that foundation of knowledge that allows you to reach new levels of expertise in a particular area by layering things on a little at a time (i.e. personal gains and improvement). But, the sharing of the information makes others better. + Scott has received a number of encouraging e-mails over the years from people who found his blog and used it to solve a problem. That type of encouragement, knowing that you helped someone solve a problem in a time of need, makes it all worthwhile for Scott. - Nick mentions this is similar to encouragement a technical instructor can get from positive student feedback. * What about a blogging cadence? + Early on Scott was a blogging machine, doing probably 8-12 posts per months. This was in the early days of VMware taking off (2006 / 2007 / 2008 / 2009) and so much to write about. + There were a number of other bloggers like Duncan Epping and Frank Denneman. + One could easily publish daily if you had the time. Scott wrote a lot in the beginning, and it’s slowed a little over the years. Now he will do between 4 and 6 posts per month. + Some people say you need a specific cadence. Others say you should be laser focused on a specific subject matter area. Scott says he gets plenty of traffic, page rank, etc. and doesn’t do any of those things. - "If you enjoy it (blogging), just go ahead and do it. And all the rest of it…it will all work itself out." – Scott Lowe - Nick believes if you start writing and you enjoy it you will never run out of ideas. * Should I blog to stand out even if I’m not a great writer? + Scott’s opinion here is if you are blogging because you want to get more visibility because it might lead to a better job, he’s not convinced that is the right reason to do it. + People will say you should go blog and do it a certain way (with SEO rules). Scott believes you should write or blog because the act of creating content whether video, audio, written form, a set of sample code files, etc. all forms of content become mechanisms to enable and empower others. If your goal is to enable and empower others, get in and do it. If you don’t enjoy it, try sticking with it for a little while. + If you get into blogging strictly for financial reasons, Scott believes you will end up burning out, and your content will be a flash in the pan rather than something that has staying power because it’s coming from a place of deep commitment and conviction within your character (because you believe the information is useful, could be to inform or to entertain). + Create the content because it’s a passion for you and not to get followers or free stuff. * Is this the heart of principal level work? + Senior level team members are expected to guide and mentor junior members of the team. You will develop these qualities if you are sharing content with the purpose of empowering and enabling others.
35:33 – Paid to Write * Scott was paid to write articles for Tech Target for a couple of years. This was at the same time Scott D Lowe was writing articles for Tech Republic. * For Scott, bogging is a passion. Through it he is able to share the enjoyment he gains from figuring something out. It’s proven true that others have found value in the information in ways Scott didn’t necessarily anticipate. * When you write for pay, you need to write something. It doesn’t matter if you’re inspired. You have a deadline, and that’s how it is. If Scott had an idea on what to write about, the fact that he was writing for pay was irrelevant. He had an opinion or a stance to work with to write what he needed to write. * Overall, Scott enjoyed the opportunity to write and is glad he did it. When the writing becomes a job like this, you can be uninspired to write (because it may not be coming from a place of commitment and passion within you). + He sometimes was able to pick the topic when writing for Tech Target but was sometimes told they wanted an article on a specific topic. + If Scott had stayed in it longer, there may have been topics he decided not to write about (despite someone else wanting him to do so). + Scott worked with a number of great editors to publish the work that showed up on Tech Target. * We’ve had guests on the show whose hobby became a their eventual job that had to find other creative outlets for hobbies. * Scott has been fortunate to have great managers who recognized that he can add value in a number of ways which may not seem like they do at first glance. + Scott would take something he learned on his own and share it with the team to improve what they are doing. + He’s able to channel creative energy this way, going and figuring out how some new technology works and then adding the element of sharing with others. * Nick mentions the intent is important to notice. The things Scott is doing are coming from a place of humility. He knows things shared may help someone years after they are shared. * Scott shared an example from 2011 / 2012 and his work on Open vSwitch. Someone contacted him 5 years later stating the content was extremely valuable. There are other examples of the work he did on integrating Linux / Solaris with Active Directory. + Sometimes the payoff is delayed, but it’s still there. * This goes back to the why behind blogging and sharing that Scott already mentioned. For Scott it comes from a place of wanting to pave a path to make it easier for others to follow.
43:34 – Blogs to Books * The first book he wrote happened around 2009. A colleague of Scott’s was offered to write a book but could not do it. Scott agreed to do it, and that’s how Mastering vSphere version 4 came to be. + The book became a runaway success and led him into doing Mastering vSphere 5 as a follow up. * Writing a book is a very different thing than writing a blog post. It’s a ton of work. + We are more than just our job. We have families, friends, etc. + When given the opportunity to write the book, Scott sat his family down and shared just how much work he believed would be involved. His kids were younger at the time, and it was important that the entire family bought into it. + The kids would need to help around the house and help their mother. * Scott had wanted to write a book for a number of years. + He’s an avid reader of fiction even though he writes technology books. + Scott had tried in the past to chase writing a book, but it did not happen. About 6 months after he decided it would happen when the time was right, the opportunity landed in his lap. * It took about 4.5 – 5 months to write the book. + The first copies rolled out at VMworld in 2009. * It seems like many folks who have been successful in the technology industry have written books. * Scott believes that writing is powerful in many ways. It is crucial to what we do as information / knowledge workers. So much of our everything is in written form, which is so incredibly central to what we are as a people. + Spending the time to make yourself better at writing pays off in so many other ways (i.e. more effective description of the why behind an upgrade, better structure, better understanding of others’ arguments, etc.). + This comes out of understanding how our language works, using our language, and conversing in that language (any language) gives you power to be more effective as an individual, a communicator, and as a leader. + All of these things are so intermeshed in the career ladder…being able to make yourself effective at broadening your sphere of influence and having the company recognize it (and get promoted as a result). * Be careful stepping in to write a book because it is a whole different animal. + Scott has written 8 books, so what is going on here? + Scott has heard someone use the analogy that writing a book is like giving birth to a baby. It’s extremely hard and painful, but after it’s finished and you look back, you don’t remember that pain until you’re in the midst of writing another book. + It’s the growth that brings the joy. + Agreeing to write a book doesn’t mean you know everything about a topic when you begin. + Just like writing a blog post or teaching something to somoene else, it solidifies your own understanding of the topic. + At the time Scott wrote his book on vSphere they were using beta code. Screenshots would have to be updated every time new code was released in those days because the interface may have changed slightly. + But there is so much learning that happens in this process because you are forced to embrace everything you are writing and really understand it. Scott was very familiar with vSphere when he began work on the books but still learned a great deal through the process of writing Mastering vSphere 4 as well as Mastering vSphere 5. + Nick remembers using the vSphere 5 book when pursuing his certification years ago. Scott says they didn’t intend to make it a certification guide but that many found it helpful in working toward the certification.
Contact us if you need help on the journey.
Welcome to episode 151 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of our interview with Duwayne Engelhardt, discussing his participation in technology communities, the transition into retirement, and how life has been after retirement.
Original Recording Date: 10-06-2021
Duwayne Engelhardt is currently retired. Duwayne was the VP of Network Administration at a bank. During his career he was a Network Administrator, Technology Director, and many other things. Catch part 1 of our discussion of Duwayne’s early career in Episode 150.
Topics – Spiceworks: The Software and the Community, Money Isn’t Everything, Transitioning into Retirement, Advice for Others Planning to Retire and Parting Thoughts 2:21 – Spiceworks: The Software and the Community * Duwayne’s first interaction with Spiceworks was using their free help desk software. He was using a software package from a large vendor that was discontinued. * Duwayne didn’t realize the Spiceworks community existed until over 500,000 users had joined it. + The people he came across and interacted with in the community were both knowledgeable and helpful. If somoene made a suggestion that didn’t work, Duwayne could go back and ask the person again. + Interestingly enough, Duwayne at one time followed John White in the community for learning and sharing purposes. * Duwayne was a SpiceLeader for the Houston area SpiceCorps. For more detail on what SpiceCorps is, check out this page. + As a result of this, Duwayne met a number of vendors whose products could actually help him move projects at the bank forward. - It was technology that made IT professionals’ jobs easier. Duwayne loved sharing with other IT professionals who might not have had time to do the necessary research + Most of the time there was no need to create something from scratch (i.e. a script, etc.). Duwayne could look at what others had done and make tweaks to suit his environment. + SpiceCorps was a user group that began from people using the Spiceworks product. People would meet to share experiences and help new users get more out of the application. - Eventually vendors began to sponsor parts of meetings, providing refreshments to attendees for a chance to plug their products. Attendees liked the fact that technical representatives from the vendor would come out and answer questions on how the technology could help them. - As the Spiceworks application was updated less frequently, SpiceLeaders like Duwayne needed to focus more on bringing in vendors for sponsorship. + Nick has been the co-leader of the SpiceCorps of Dallas / Fort Worth and references some of the activities from past meetings + Taking 1-1.5 hours out of an IT professional’s day / week is taking valuable time. Attending a meeting like a SpiceCorps is someone intentionally spending their own time. The work is not going to go away and probably will have to be made up by an attendee some other time. These types of meetings have to be fun, interesting, and worthwhile to get people to show up. * John always found the community around the Spiceworks application really interesting because he spent very little time using Spiceworks software. It was the discussion forums on networking, storage, compute, virtualization and others which served as a great way to educate people looking to break into the industry / learn on the fly. + John got so much out of the community but has not really had much time to be a part of it over the last few years. + Spiceworks originally helped Duwayne a lot (the software that did inventory and help desk). + There were a number of applications built up around the Spiceworks community like PDQ. This company had tremendous growth because of Spiceworks and was a far less expensive alternative than Microsoft tooling. + Duwayne met the founders of PDQ back when it was Admin Arsenal at Spiceworld, learned about the capabilities, started with the free version of PDQ, and eventually needed to invest in the paid version because of regulations and the need to keep applications up to date. It filled a gap in the Spiceworks application capabilities and eventually became the tool to use for inventory with Spiceworks being used more for ticketing. + Duwayne shares the story of when he began using Spiceworks as a replacement to a product that changed corporate ownership and became more expensive. + From 2007 – 2015 the Spiceworks application was a big deal, but at some point along Spiceworks decided to be a marketing company that put vendors in touch with IT pros. The focus on the app seemed to go down a bit, leaving the community as the biggest value. + Duwayne mentions knowing Nick and John via the community long before we all met in person. + Because people were friendly and willing to share it made the community great. It was good friendship and fellowship. What else can you ask of life? If you have that, you have it all. + People who participate in communities like this are doing it on their own time. + We may not all have the knowledge of some folks we come across in communities. But if we can ask a question of somoene who has been there and get back a helpful response, it saves time and energy. + Picking people’s brains is extremely helpful, and it allows you to build connections and friendships. People in Spiceworks pushed John to dream bigger and better himself. You may not have this in your mind until someoene brings it up.
17:30 – Money Isn’t Everything * When Duwayne got the network administrator job at Wallis Bank, it was 5 miles from his home without him needing to drive to Houston. + Despite the fact that Duwayne likely could have received better pay by going to Houston he liked the flexibility of going to and coming home from work at a decent hour. He also did not have to relocate. + Duwayne was not a job hopper and has only had 3 jobs in his career. Moving to large companies was not for him. + Duwayne identified what was important to him and made the decision based on that. Not everyone has the presence of mind to do this. + You can learn it early or learn it late, but eventually you will want a place to call home, a place to relax and get away from thigs. "Always being at the top is not always where you want to be." – Duwayne Engelhardt
20:11 – Transitioning into Retirement * On the business side, Duwayne had multiple projects he wanted to complete and document to leave things in a good state for the next person. * About 6 months before he left, he talked with the team about what needed to be tied up before his last day. They have known for years Duwayne planned to retire, and his successor was hired about 3 years before his departure. + Duwayne had worked on a small team and was a subject matter expert in many areas of the technology landscape for the bank. They needed time for knowledge transfer. * Duwayne’s wife had quit work due to too much stress. She called him one day and asked him if he’d mind her quitting. He told her to go for it. + They had been transitioning off her salary in the year before that to help them get used to lower income and retirement. Though she quit earlier than they may have wanted, it did not hurt them. + Before making the decision to retire, Duwayne and his wife looked at their finances and even spoke with a financial advisor to confirm they were in good shape. + Duwayne wanted to start taking extra money after he retired while they were still young enough to enjoy it. * As soon as Duwayne retired, he started working on the house to prepare for a big retirement blow out party his wife wanted to host (16 hour days for 6 weeks). + There was a freeze that wiped out part of her garden before this that needed replacing before they had company. + Duwayne’s wife told him after the party he could do what he wanted. - Duwayne wanted to transition to a solo guitar vocal career to get some extra money and do something enjoyable. - Because of COVID there has not been a lot of traction here, but some of the performances are now starting to pick up a bit. - Duwayne has also done a lot of YouTube learning. With COVID popular guitarists were not touring. Many of them picked up YouTube channels, which allowed Duwayne to improve his playing. * As of the October recording date, Duwayne had been retired for 7 months. + So far retirement been enjoyable. He and his wife have been on a number of trips together (with more to come). + From a finance perspective, they are making it just fine. + Duwayne’s wife has taken up sewing in her retirement, putting her new sewing machine to good use making quilts, table runners, placemats, etc. + Duwayne’s wife is a talented artist who has been doing some very interesting things with wine bottles (usually as gifts). + In the same way, Duwayne often gives his music away for free. * Now if Duwayne’s phone rings late at night it could only be a family concern. His parents and siblings are getting up in age. + He still has a couple of customers, running his own small managed service provider (MSP) helping out some very small businesses like a small dental office in a neighboring town that had not made any infrastructure upgrades since 2009. - Duwayne built a small network for them with some virtual machines, including implementing a system for daily backups and effective rotation. - Another customer of Duwayne’s had a computer crash. The person had been using Outlook as a file cabinet for a number of years.
28:57 – Advice for Others Planning to Retire and Parting Thoughts * Save money early on, and don’t touch it if you can help it. + Duwayne knows many people who are living on social security alone and aren’t too happy with the things they are able to do as a result. + Sacrifice a little early on, and see where it goes. Compound interest is powerful over years. You may think two or three years is no big deal. Turning that into 20 to 40 years can make a huge difference in your retirement. + Being able to do what he wants to do in retirement is a big deal for Duwayne. * Plan for something outside of computers. + Duwayne has maintained a membership in cybersecurity organizations like Infraguard and has had a focus there for 26 years. It’s hard to transition off of it, but he has been able to fill his time in retirement with other things he enjoys. + Family and friends are a big part of retirement. The fact that they can spend more time with the important people makes life a lot better. * IT professionals forget they are helping others. If you keep that in mind it makes all the work seem less work. + Transition to the idea that you’re not working for yourself. You’re not working for the company but rather the people at the company. + When it comes time to retire you’ll have a lot of friends who will be there for you.
Contact us if you need help on the journey.
Welcome to episode 150 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we discuss Duwayne Engelhardt’s early career and his transition from being a band director into IT operations at a bank.
Original Recording Date: 10-06-2021
Topics – Meet Duwayne Engelhardt, Band Director to Banking, Focus on Functionality, A Manager of Change, Onboarding A New Boss and Showing Value, Stressful Situations, Supporting Others through Change 2:29 – Meet Duwayne Engelhardt * Duwayne Engelhardt is currently retired. He doesn’t do anything he does not want to do. + Duwayne was the VP of Network Administration at Wallis Bank. His boss told him he was the Infrastructure Architect before retiring, but before that he was a Network Administrator, Technology Director, and many other things. * Duwayne was always kind of a tech guy but primarily a musician. Even in the 1960s, he built his own AM radio to listen to at night when no one could tell him to turn it down / off. * He started his career as a Band Director at a small school. The situation was such that he had to find extra classes to teach like PE, Math, Texas History, and when computers came along, it was suggested he teach a class on them. + He got certified so he would not have to change the classes he taught each year. + He started with teaching things like Commodore64 machines and others. + Duwayne’s wife did accounting work, and he helped her with manual ledgers, finally suggesting computer spreadsheets could do the job better. The wife said "go do it." + Duwayne picked up an Epson machine and Lotus123 to take care of it. + Duwayne used a computer a lot as a band director because he had many students and needed to keep track of students, uniforms, instruments, grades. He had over 3 times the number of students as other teachers. + Duwayne was told he knew too much about computers to keep teaching band and not just teach computers. He could not find another band director job and decided to "roll with the flow." * Duwayne still likes to play instruments and perform these days and will often times teach kids on the side. + Music remains his first love, but he likes to play around with computers too. * John mentioned Accounting was a transformation and that people don’t remember spreadsheets were once paper. + Duwayne said his wife turned maintaining ledgers over to him and that he decided to then use the computers for his stuff.
7:00 – Band Director to Banking * Duwayne taught what was considered basic computer information to middle school kids to start, teaching them about computers, their history, and how they developed dating back to Babbage in the 1800s. + It was computer literacy more than anything. * When Duwayne got into the banking industry, they were not using computers. It was green screens and mainframes but didn’t really know what they were doing (data entry only). Going to the banks was a big transition because many workstations were a hybrid between green screen / mainframe and computing. * People using the computers figured out how to screen scrape the green screen so people would not have to copy information between the two systems. + As long as the data was in the right place / field, you could get the data to go from the mainframe (thousands of miles away) to the local computer in front of you. + In education you have to teach the students what’s happening so they know what to do and what not to do, what happens when you don’t do something right, and how to correct it, etc. + The education part was very useful in teaching people at the bank. The biggest difference was that in education you might have 3 servers in a school district and 200-300 users per server. At the bank, we had 80 servers for 180 people (a very different server to user ratio). Education doesn’t require a lot of computing, but in banking these days, almost everything requires computing. * Duwayne came into technology when mainframes were still in use. They were in the middle of processing e-mail (probably the biggest local usage of computers), and employees realized they could find the information they were looking for easily in spreadsheet form faster than manually manipulating the mainframe’s screen. + The mainframe had one print option (print everything), and there was no going to look for page 7 if that was all you needed. + Duwayne was there during the transition away from mainframes and a transition to a quicker means of entering data
11:58 – Focus on Functionality * Duwayne tried to stay 2-3 steps ahead of users to do testing and evaluate what they wanted and needed so he would know what they needed to do with any new technology. + Even in education, Duwayne found in the mid-1990s, he found an application written for Apple 2 machines (even though it was not a thing those days) that could teach elementary students language and math. The teachers loved Duwayne for setting this up, getting excited about seeing printouts of a student’s progress after using the program. + The person who came in after Duwayne brought in Windows, and it was a big learning curve for students and teachers. You need to see what something is good for and use it for a particular function. This does not require that it be the latest technology if it works well. + Duwayne still does some computer work these days for people. Listen to his story about helping a customer swap computers easily (and finding a better way to transfer settings).
14:44 – A Manager of Change * Duwayne has been a manager of change throughout his career. At the bank, they used NT e-mail internally only (no Exchange existed at that time – 1999). + He remembers the BSD system from the school district and found a good Linux server to use for the bank’s e-mail until moving to Exchange in 2007. + Duwayne had to rebuild the server at one point right before a trip out of town and upgraded it to Postfix, which served as the corporate mail server until they eventually migrated to change. + This is what got Duwayne started in Linux, and to this day he still runs some Linux servers at his home. * You have to use what is good for you and what is cost effective. There is no sense in wasting money on computing when you don’t have to. * The bank had higher computing requirements and more uptime requirements. + Back to the boy scout trip out of town…Duwayne had been planning to go for a while, but the e-mail server went down the day before the trip. + Duwayne’s boss would not allow him to leave until he fixed the server, stating the company would pay to fly him to wherever he needed to go to at least make part of his trip. + Duwayne had to go buy a new motherboard for the server and then decided to upgrade Linux at the same time. The hard drive was fine, which allowed Duwayne to recover all the e-mails. * Listen as Duwayne shares a story about Windstream (their datacenter communications provider at the time) making a forced change to the bank’s connection (all new circuits) and external network that took 3 days to resolve. + Duwayne finally convinced a Windstream engineer that the problem had to do with packet sizes and was a misconfiguration of some Windstream equipment, sleeping very little during those 3 days as a result. + During the outage, the bank had some functionality within their network but no access to the internet (which meant no e-mail). + It was an extremely stressful time for Duwayne. * John says during times of change you really understand what fragility is. + This is the very reason Duwayne suggested the bank have multiple datacenters for redundancy. + By the time Duwayne left the bank, a datacenter failure wouldn’t even be noticed by end users because an automatic failover based on redundancy was in place. Things might be a little slower, but the functionality was there without a complete system down situation. + This type of redundancy earned the bank high marks from regulators. John says the regulations were stricter based on the size of the bank. + When Duwayne joined the bank, they had about 65 million dollars in assets, and by the time he left to retire they were over 1 billion dollars (present day closer to 2 billion dollars). - This growth resulted in multiple regulation level changes.
23:37 – Onboarding A New Boss and Showing Value * Duwayne’s boss was a member of the family with a background in database administration. He knew a lot but not how it all interconnected. + Duwayne taught his boss many things over the 7 years they worked together. + The boss was willing to learn. He came in because he was the oldest son of the primary owner. + Duwayne’s boss came into the role knowing he didn’t know a lot of things. Duwayne took it upon himself to help his new boss understand the technology operations at the bank. The boss eventually fought for everything the team needed (i.e. all the improvements needed to get five 9s of availability for the bank). + Working at the bank was a great job for Duwayne. + Duwayne says the team was told no a few times regarding some things they wanted to increase reliability and uptime. Generally, if they kept at it and could demonstrate a return on the investment within 6 months, projects would get approved to introduce new capabilities. * John didn’t learn the lesson of demonstrating business value while in IT Operations. It was something he learned in pre-Sales. + Duwayne grew up doing this. If he wanted something, it was up to him to prove the value of what he wanted. If there was value and a workable return on investment, things got approved. + Duwayne tried to use these same skills while teaching. In the school systems there were more politics. Administrators would have direct access to the board, but you needed to convince an administrator something was a good idea first. + Presenting the business case to leadership within the banking industry was easier for Duwayne. His motto was that he would spend the bank’s money like it was his own (i.e. won’t ask for something the bank really did not need). + Duwayne never abused the trust upper management put in him at the bank, sticking to the plan of providing a valid business case for return on investment to help leaders understand. If you can do something to make the business run better, more power to you.
28:58 – Stressful Situations * Close to the time COVID hit, technology teams had already added a few hours to their normal day to support branches in different time zones without adding IT personnel. + Employees wanted to work late into the night on loan applications. Duwayne and team had to figure out how to adjust their data backup schedules as a result (when to do it, how to do it, what timeline for recovery is). + One of the servers was overloaded and nearly out of space. Duwayne had created a script to move files and ran it early one morning. A couple of hours later a co-worker called and stated a specific file share was completely empty (the one that was supposed to be copied to a new server). - Duwayne’s script had accidentally done the copy in the wrong direction and wiped out all the data. - Luckily Duwayne had a redundant copy of the data that was fairly up to date. He was able to recover everything but a small number of files. - This taught Duwayne an important lesson. Get a second set of eyes on scripts before running them in production when you’re about to make a big change. - There was a lot of stress on IT personnel in supporting other company personnel moving from a 14 hour day to a 24 hour day (with no added IT staff). - Some of the best advice Duwayne has received is don’t skip on backup. You never have enough of it. There will come a time when you need that 3rd copy. * Even though he is retired now, Duwayne works with a few small businesses and encourages them to never skimp on backups. * Sometimes an ok day can turn into a red alert, all hands on deck kind of situation. How do you deal with the stress of these kinds of situations over the course of a career? + Duwayne says he’s not sure you ever learn to deal with it. You just deal with it. + It helps if you have a manager above you who can provide consistent status updates to upper management. This takes the heat off the team working on resolving the problem. + A co-worker of Duwayne’s sat in a cubicle and try to work while people hovered over him during a stressful situation. Duwayne, on the other hand, had an office door he could close. + Duwayne’s boss (a Senior Vice President) would let people know the team was aware of the outage and that they were working to resolve it as quickly as possible. But there were limits to how fast the team could work and how fast processes could move.
36:04 – Supporting Others through Change * Platforms changed a few times over Duwayne’s career. * Usually people came to Duwayne with banking applications with his job being to make it work. * Duwayne was more on the networking side, transitioning from frame relay to nVPN (VPN managed by carriers) to basic multi-site units with routing to SD-WAN. * His goal was consistently to lessen the overall impact on end users during these changes (i.e. minimal downtime). + Even back in the 90s they were running their voice traffic over frame relay for branch communication. + Some moves were made with no downtime at all, but usually users recognized the improvement. + The change to SD-WAN was the most complicated and had the most downtime due to the changes needed (not the same as a simple redirection). * Nick says the job of the IT professional is to be invisible. Duwayne says we are enablers. We enable end users to do their jobs. The better we can do that and the less they have to talk to us (IT), the better they like it (and the better we like it). + If users complain / talk about something be "slow," ideally we would fix it without them knowing it so they will be able to see the difference and can report a positive change. + Duwayne says there were some users who would come and thank him or a member of his team when something was fixed, being very generous with their gratitude. The users appreciated the effort IT put in to help them, and the IT group understood the end users they supported were making money for the company. + Duwayne enjoyed working with most end users and on the back end systems. He likes communicating and talking with people, so interacting with end users was never an issue. - Duwayne had to reinforce to the people who worked for him that the people the team supported were the ones making the company money to pay IT salaries. - Take care of them (end users). They may not be right. You can’t really change it except to make it better. * At one point Duwayne was the Information Security Officer at the bank. + Duwayne told one of the presidents he could shut the bank down if the situation arose / risk was great enough. + Duwayne shares a story of someone wanting to know the passwords of all tellers working under her, but this would have been a compliance issue. Duwayne shut it down, and his boss supported the decision. + The Information Security Officer works very closely with the Compliance Officer.
Contact us if you need help on the journey.
Welcome to episode 149 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of our interview with Chris Wahl, discussing how Chris grew as Rubrik grew and his life as Chief Technologist, the genesis and end of Datanauts, decision trees for bringing more joy to your life, and how Chris builds connections through writing.
Original Recording Date: 9-23-2021
Chris Wahl is a Senior Principal at Slalom. He leads a team of consulting technologists who solve complex problems related to public cloud, DevOps and many other items under the technology umbrella. Check out part 1 of our interview with Chris in Episode 148.
Topics – A Career Time Machine, Datanauts, Maximizing Value and Joy, Building Connections, Parting Thoughts 3:28 – A Career Time Machine * Slalom came out of a bunch of things. Chris had been at Rubrik for almost 6 years and did not feel like he was adding much. He’s self-conscious of the inputs and values he provides. * Eventually Chris decided he needed to build something else and left Rubrik. He did not have another job lined up and decided to take a break. * Chris had talked to Slalom back before Rubrik in 2015 but turned it down for Rubrik. * Out of the blue he got an e-mail from a recruiter at Slalom. It was a really nice, personalized message. + The role at Slalom had the things that he wanted: - A local team in Austin - Wanted to work in cloud architecture with no on-premises stuff - The company valued diversity and inclusion, and Chris has been able to hire people with a broad range of unique perspectives and backgrounds (i.e. building the team he wanted to build). * At Rubrik Chris was a Tech Evangelist and flew all over the world doing tech shows. + When he went to Europe people would think he was a minister of some sort based on the title of Evangelist. + They eventually changed his title to Chief Technologist based on his suggestion. + The role was (aside from presentations and meeting people) running Technical Marketing (which included Developer Relations, competitive teams, etc.). + It was a miniature department with subgroups. He wanted to write blogs and make videos and made a lot of mistakes as a manager. + Chris was a senior director at the company and had to learn a lot of things for the first time. He felt he made some mistakes but ended up with great people. * As a company grows you’re expected to take on more responsibilities. + Chris felt his biggest mistake as a manger was too much time not managing / not thinking about his strategy. He gathered a group of people, said "let’s go do some cool stuff," and figured that was enough. + Sometimes it was enough, but overall this was a humbling time for Chris. * Chris had never worked for a vendor startup before Rubrik, and all of it was very new. * The biggest advice Chris would give his former self would be to remember that he has control over his destiny. + He felt he was too passive and should have taken a more active role in building his future. That’s good advice across the board to be a more active participant in your own role. + In the situation at Rubrik being a people manager was inevitable. He might have decided (if he did it over) to build a team that was more on the engineering side of things and less on the marketing side. + Chris feels he made the right wrong decision there. The experience working under the Chief Marketing Officer at Rubrik and running Technical Marketing gives him a lot of advantages over his peers. - At the time Chris wanted to be a little more hands on with the technology like he had been before joining the company. * There were many ups and downs, and it’s never black and white but rather shades of beautiful gray. * At Slalom Chris is less technical comparatively speaking. He can architect a solution but expects his engineers to put the pieces together for implementation. * Chris still writes Python and Terraform code as a hobby to stay sharp and up to date with how things work. Everything else he expects the capable engineers working on his projects to deliver. * John makes a good point about architecture still being technical but a different kind of technical. + Chris said the tools he uses have changed to LucidChart ,spreadsheets, diagrams, etc. * Because of the vast experience Chris has, he is not afraid of challenges he faces stumping him. He knows he has a great team, he knows he is not alone, and there is always some way to solve it.
14:19 – Datanauts * Chris met Ethan Banks(see also Episode 42 and Episode 43) at Cisco Live in 2013. + Chris was a big Packet Pushers fan, and they happened to be at the same table for influencers. Chris made it a point to strike up a conversation with Ethan, and the two became fast friends. * Chris and Ethan wanted to make a show about breaking down silos. The original name was called IT Engine Builders but was later changed to Datanauts. * Chris liked talking to people and building show scripts, but it got to the point where it was not fun any longer. * They built a successful show. If Chris was no longer into it, people were going to notice. + Chris wanted to start a family, move, and had some personal ambitions. + In the beginning the two of them agreed that when one of them wanted to leave the show, it would be perfectly ok. + After Chris communicated his desire to leave the show, they recorded a nice final episode. * Chris definitely misses doing the show but not all the other stuff that comes along with it. * Ethan and Chris created a show made of love and wanted to tell stories of people building better IT because they wanted to work together. The concept of breaking down silos and working together was pretty new at that time. * We (Nick and John) are just being a little selfish since we loved Datanauts so much. + One of Nick’s favorite Datanauts episodes is Trials & Tribulations of Technical Blogging.
18:24 – Maximizing Value and Joy * What about difficulties people have letting something go even if the time is right? + Chris says ask yourself the following: - Does this make you happy? - Does this bring you joy? - Is it doing something for you and your mental wellness? - Is it helping you hit your goals? + If the answer is no, it’s not the right thing…period. You need to pivot into something else. * Chris has been doing this across the board lately. Anything that is getting in his way, not bringing joy, not enabling what he wants out of his life…has to go. + The pandemic has really created a focus on how to get the maximum amount of value and joy out of life for Chris. * This paring down goes back to concepts discussed in Deep Work by Cal Newport. + Check out Episode 141 for part 1 of our 7-part review of this book. * Nick mentioned this methodology also sounds similar to the approach Jonathan Frappier took to fight back against burnout (i.e. the focus on self-care). * The problem with FOMO (fear of missing out) is that comparison is a direct road to sadness. Comparison is the death of joy. * I don’t want to compare my real life to your highlight reel. + This is the kind of thing that happens when you look at social media or investments you had to make to be part of the social media community. + It’s all smoke and mirrors. There’s not a lot of tangible value there. + About 1.5 years ago, Chris backed out of using social media, coming to the realization that it did nothing for him. He was contributing content on other people’s platforms and looking at people’s perfect lives through their distorted lenses. He was unhappy and depressed. + Chris still maintains his blog. He doesn’t use Twitter, is barely on LinkedIn, and is the happiest he has ever been. There is no FOMO, only joy. * Now Chris focuses on him, his people, solving cool problems, and writing it down, and waking up the next day wanting to do it over again. + Chris got back 3-5 hours per day after giving up social media. + Chris feels super productive and has been laser focused this year. + The distractions are now gone. It’s been years since he has felt this creative and sharp. * It’s almost like Chris read Deep Work before this episode. + See also Chris’ article on deep work written after our recording took place. * "You know what social media doesn’t do? It doesn’t build connection. I can’t have 1000 friends." – Chris Wahl + The people Chris interacts with regularly that he can connect with on a personal and professional level provides more value in his life than the 14,000 people following him on Twitter. + We keep judging the value of a message based on hearts and thumbs up which does not provide a context. It’s shown to us through a certain lens. + We need to connect with other humans. + This is something Chris has come to in the last couple years in his own journey. + So many people are suffering from depression and burnout through social media and the comparison lifestyle, and Chris doesn’t need any of that. * John speaks to how the sentiment Chris expressed aligns with the Deep Work Hypothesis proposed by Cal Newport. There are deep and shallow connections with others much in the same way there is deep and shallow types of work.
28:11 – Building Connections * Chris wanted to work where his coworkers would be local. There is a level of safety and comfort around those he works with to be together in person. * Every organization is struggling with building connections. Up to 50-60% of the market is looking to switch jobs because they want to feel more included with the company, its mission, and their peers. + Connection is driving people to analyze their values and be introspective of their own lifestyle. + The upheaval is causing rippling waves throughout tech. The connections are where the joy is. * If you’re watching LinkedIn, you may see people leaving your company. It can start to impact you in a negative way or make you think others know something you don’t. + The pandemic has put some extra stress on us in that it has forced us to think about what is really important. + Some people have left jobs they enjoyed for something even better. * Chris says everyone he is working with on the client side is just slammed trying to hire people. + We’re seeing remote work opportunities no longer being bound to a specific area. + We should find our gratitude first. The fact that we have these opportunities is fantastic. + Once you have found your gratitude, find where you want to find your joy and your lifestyle (i.e. what employer, what role, etc.). + This is about setting yourself up, having the skills people need, going through the process of making yourself valuable, doing good work, documenting, etc. + John says he’s not certain the cycle is going to end of being able to learn new technologies quickly and being able to execute on them. Knowledge work jobs are going to be some of the most valuable out there. * Taking the time to focus on making real, valuable connections like Chris has done can bring renewed energy into your work. + Remove the distractions of being highly connected. Then make choices of who you connect with. * Start with having the gratitude every day. + When we talk about learning and knowledge work, it’s just patterns. There are all these patterns that have to do with building, designing, and dealing with tech. + Once you identify the patterns, it’s about applying them in the situation you’re in. + It will always be about learning new things, finding the patterns they fit against, and then making them work. + Chris very much enjoys today’s tech stacks and can do without loading floppies in mainframes. - Aspects of the modern tech stack allow us to add more value to the business and in a way breathes more energy into us as a result. - Now, the joy comes from all the options we have to build whatever we want to build. It’s not like back in the day when we were the API. - There’s no excuse not to be thrilled about what’s going on in tech these days. It’s either shift your perspective, find your gratitude, or this isn’t for you.
39:49 – Parting Thoughts * Frequent writing is a big deal. + On Chris’s team at Slalom they all blog (every week) to share experiences, learnings, challenges, etc. It’s an open forum to collaborate. + If you’re looking to build connections and become a better writer, start a blog with your team or the people that work for you. Use it as a way to build the connection and to document things you have done for performance reviews. - Check out Chris’ blog article on How to Create Work Connections with Blogging.
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