As In Heaven: Recent Episodes

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The Everyday Pastor is a new podcast from TGC on the nuts and bolts of ministry. Hosted by Ligon Duncan, with nearly 20 years of pastoral experience, and Matt Smethurst, who planted a church three years ago, it seeks to model how ministers of different generations, levels of experience, and even denominations can apply God’s never-changing Word in a fast-changing world.

It’s not an easy time to be a pastor, but it’s an exciting one—because the Lord is on his throne and his Word is enough to help us navigate the trenches of ministry with fortitude and joy. So join Matt and Lig (and special guests along the way) as they seek to help you think wisely about nitty-gritty issues of everyday ministry.

Don't miss an episode of The Everyday Pastor! Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

Help The Gospel Coalition build up a renewed church for tomorrow. Let's Build Together: Donate Today at tgc.org/together

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Join Collin Hansen and Melissa Kruger for their annual recap discussion on the biggest stories affecting the church around the world in the last year. This conversation was originally featured on TGC's Gospelbound podcast.

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In this final season episode of As in Heaven, Jim Davis and Michael Graham are joined by Trevin Wax to discuss what it looks like to help individuals reconstruct their faith and for evangelicals—as a movement—to rebuild their witness.

This episode is part of As in Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon on which the episodes of this season are based, order The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

Recommended resource: Reconstructing Faith with Trevin Wax (podcast)

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In this final episode of season three of As in Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Irwyn Ince to discuss the value of churches that seek to be both missional and confessional. When churches seek to hold both of these things in harmony, they become places that people won't want to leave.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and guest introduction (0:00)
• Confessional versus missional theology (3:43)
• Why is the language of mission so important? (9:53)
• The ground level of orthodoxy (18:00)
• An overflow of the doctrine of the Trinity (25:03)
• The polarization of the church and culture (32:30)
• The significance of Biblical ethics (37:36)
• The multifaceted glory of the essence of God (42:55)
• Practical ways to apply a missional mindset (49:15)

This episode is part of As in Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon on which the episodes of this season are based, preorder The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As in Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Michael Graham welcome Jake Meador to discuss the merits of having a posture of a "church in exile." They explore how this exilic posture could help us close the back door of the church and regain our prophetic voice.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and guest introduction (0:00)
• Moving from empire to exile (4:37)
• Centrality of patience (11:38)
• Role of attention in a digital age (16:53)
• Advantages of living in a state of exile (23:08)
• Learning from others across broader church history (29:41)
• Advice for clergy and business owners in secular workplaces (36:11)
• Relational wisdom in a low-trust environment (43:31)

This episode is part of As In Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon on which the episodes of this season are based, preorder The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Michael Graham welcome Andrew Wilson and Glen Scrivener to discuss European perspectives on dechurching in America, drawing from insights in the UK, Australia, and Italy to compare and contrast the dechurching movement.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and topic introduction (0:00)
• Losing cultural prestige and normativity in the states (7:02)
• The benefits of standing up to the cultural tide (12:25)
• The difference between secular traditional and secular progressive (15:39)
• Britain, Italy, and the catholic vs. protestant split (19:03)
• David Goodhart and nationalism (22:22)
• The difference between exile and sojourning (25:49)
• What’s the state of the church in 2024? (35:40)
• Final thoughts and encouragement (41:20)

This episode is part of As in Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon on which the episodes of this season are based, preorder The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Robert Cunningham to discuss the complexities of our ever-shifting culture. They share insights into pastoring through election cycles, polarizing cultural moments, and how not to grow weary.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and topic introduction (0:00)
• The impact of cultural issues on the dechurching phenomenon (7:31)
• How can we bring people back to the church? (14:46)
• Pastoring through cultural changes (19:06)
• What does it look like to switch churches? (27:59)
• What role does the pastor play in shaping members for this cultural moment? (32:27)
• Pastors are tired. How can they care for themselves well? (41:16)

This episode is part of As in Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon on which the episodes of this season are based, preorder The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As in Heaven, Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Sam Allberry and Michael Keller to discuss preaching in light of the dechurched phenomenon. The guests share insights from their own preaching preparation, cultural insights from their context, and how they question cultural assumptions.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and topic introduction (0:00)
• The role of preaching in worship (3:15)
• How do you break the ice with new members? (8:55)
• The process of preparing for a sermon (13:32)
• The moral responsibility of a preacher to convict (22:25)
• The value of biblical community (23:42)
• How do you get feedback from your congregation? (25:27)
• How do you see yourself as a young minister? (27:55)
• Two sides of the same coin of preaching (30:19)
• The difference between culture and context (32:03)
• The importance of contextualization (34:54)
• The beauty of expository preaching (43:07)
• How will "Chat GPT" affect preaching? (47:50)

This episode is part of As in Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon on which the episodes of this season are based, preorder The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As In Heaven, Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Jen Wilkin to discuss the importance of seeing and honoring women's gifts and abilities in the church as it pertains to dechurching in America. When understanding God's design for the roles of women in the church, it is important that we seek to honor and value women in the midst of seeking biblical fidelity and clarity. Jen Wilkin shares several personal stories from both positive and negative experiences as well as stories of how The Village Church came to draft their shorter and longer position papers on the role of women in the church.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and guest introduction (0:00)
• Core for idols male pastors to work through in order to lead a healthy church (7:06)
• What does it look like for women to flourish in the church? (21:30)
• The process of writing The Village Church position papers (24:23)
• Why clarity is kind and why it matters (30:54)
• Why listening is so important in spiritual formation (33:59)

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In this episode of As in Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome guest David Platt to discuss the role of political syncretism (taking political positions of neutrality) in dechurching in America. In their conversation, they unpack the ways political syncretism has diminished trust among many in their local church and the broader evangelical church.

Episode time stamps:

• What does it mean to leave the church by politics? (0:55)
• Idolatry in the church (6:52)
• Praying for the president (16:50)
• Make sure the Word is clear and the message is proclaimed (22:26)
• What role does a pastor play when handing voter guides? (27:07)
• We live in a different kingdom (32:24)
• The power of love and compassion (35:43)
• Love God and others (41:45)

Learn more about dechurching alongside Jim Davis and Michael Graham in this 5-session weekly online cohort through The Keller Center.

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In this episode of As In Heaven, Jim Davis is joined by his wife, Angela Davis, a mental health counselor, and Benjamin Kandt to discuss the role mental health plays in dechurching, the relation between worship and mental health, and how mental health intersects with the church's ministry to the dechurched. They offer insight into the painful reality of loneliness and despair that marks many who have left the church. You'll learn how we can engage the hurts of this group of people and how we can act to hear and offer healing through love and the gospel.

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In this episode of As In Heaven, Jim Davis and Skyler Flowers welcome Derek Rishmawy to discuss engaging upcoming generations, especially college students. They continue the conversation around the missed generational handoff and share practical steps that parents and church leaders can take to disciple and instill a love of the local church and an affection for the gospel among college students.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and guest introduction (0:00)
• College ministry and the pressure to succeed (8:06)
• Other pressures experienced in college (12:32)
• College and the unique opportunities it presents (19:08)
• College students are more open to discussing faith than people think (24:18)
• The defeatist mentality (31:19)
• College as a mission field (32:37)
• Having a kingdom mindset and working together (39:31)

This episode is part of As In Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon on which the episodes of this season are based, preorder The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Skyler Flowers welcome Cameron Cole to discuss the importance of ministering to upcoming generations, primarily middle and high school students. They discuss the idea of "missed generational handoff," where the value of being churched experiences a dramatic decline in teens (ages 13-17) and young adults (ages 18-25.) Cole shares practical steps parents and church leaders can take toward disciplining and instilling a love of the local church and an affection for the gospel among this crucial age range.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and topic introduction (0:00)
• Preparing kids for the real world (6:44)
• The importance of asking questions (18:48)
• Rooted Ministry and gospel-centered discipleship (21:23)
• The generational handoff (26:16)
• The gospel catechism and theology. (29:12)
• Practical ways to make a difference (32:28)
• How can parents prepare their kids for a culture they don’t know? (39:27)
• Resources for parents and youth. (46:50)

Recommended resource:

• Rooted Ministry
• Fuller Youth Institute
• The Reason for God by Timothy Keller

This episode is part of As In Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon on which the episodes of this season are based, preorder The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As In Heaven, Jim Davis and Michael Graham are joined by David and Meg Robbins to explore the impact of gospel-centered parenting in the dechurching movement. Parents play a valuable role in reducing the probability of dechurching in their children's future, and this episode offers several practical tips to help parents foster healthier connections with their children and encourage a love for the church.

Episode time stamps:

• Introduction David and Meg Robbins (0:00)
• How to ask the first question (8:12)
• Getting to the heart of our kids (13:57)
• Creating a community of believers for our kids (20:56)
• Navigating church casualties as a family (26:46)
• The role of technology (33:46)
• The importance of discipleship (47:25)
• How pastors can grow in this area (50:19)
• Advice to parents who are struggling (1:01:50)

Recommended resources:

• Axis.org (Connecting Teens, Parents, and Jesus in a Disconnected World)
• Family Life Today Podcast
• "Sexual Discipleship" E-course for parents with Dr. Juli Slattery
• The Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender

This episode is part of As In Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon on which the episodes of this season are based, preorder The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Michael Graham welcome Sam Chan to discuss the importance of relational wisdom when it comes to dechurching. They explore the idea that we can prevent people from leaving the church by improving our individual and institutional levels of relational wisdom. They also outline six key awarenesses that collectively yield relational wisdom:

1. God-awareness
2. Self-awareness
3. Others-awareness
4. Awareness of how others experience you
5. Emotional awareness
6. Cultural awareness

Episode time stamps:

• Introduction to episode topic and guest (0:00)
• What God are people dechurching from? (5:14)
• A quiet, calm, and curious posture (9:31)
• Being aware of others: ask more questions (15:51)
• The importance of emotional awareness (19:52)
• Emotional awareness as a pastor and minister (25:27)
• Teaching and shepherding emotions of lament (31:09)
• We need the emotional vocabulary of God (34:13)
• Cultural awareness and evangelism in a skeptical world (39:58)
• Cultural differences in preaching (45:41)

This episode is part of As In Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon on which the episodes of this season are based, preorder The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As in Heaven, Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome back Justin Holcomb to discuss how pastoral pitfalls and failures can ultimately lead to "dechurched casualties." They'll delve deeper into the topics of malpractice, narcissism, and guarding our kids from sexual abuse.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and topic introduction (0:00)
• What is narcissism? (1:16)
• The dangers of narcissism in the church (3:52)
• Wisdom in leaving a dangerous environment (5:39)
• Characteristics of a narcissistic church leader (10:39)
• Why do people leave after a pastoral pitfall? (14:37)
• What to say to those who have left the church (18:02)
• What to look for in a healthy church (20:15)
• Resources for parents on guarding our kids from sexual abuse (24:01)

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• God Made All of Me by Justin Holcomb and Lindsey Holcomb
• God Made Me in His Image by Justin Holcomb and Lindsey Holcomb
• God Made Babies by Justin Holcomb and Lindsey Holcomb
• Rid of My Disgrace: Hope and Healing for Victims of Sexual Assaultby Justin Holcomb and Lindsey Holcomb
• Is It My Fault?: Hope and Healing for Those Suffering Domestic Violenceby Justin Holcomb and Lindsey Holcomb

This episode is part of As In Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon upon which the episodes of this season are based, preorder The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Justin Holcomb to discuss the meaning of "dechurched casualties" and how abuse in a church environment contributes to people leaving the church. They discuss how to better engage those who have experienced abuse, especially spiritual and church abuse, and how the gospel is the ultimate source of healing.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and Justin Holcomb introduction (0:00)
• Definitions for spiritual and emotional abuse (4:41)
• Spiritual abuse as defined by Michael Kruger and Scott Clark (9:02)
• What to do if you suspect spiritual abuse (13:37)
• How to biblically handle abuse allegations against church leaders (17:18)
• Listen and believe: first steps to reporting abuse in the church (23:12)
• Respond well and initiate action (28:00)
• How the church should handle abuse in the church (33:43)
• How to minister to abuse survivors who have left the church (39:03)
• God's protection and questions to ask your new church (44:08)

This episode is part of As in Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon on which the episodes of this season are based, preorder The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As in Heaven, Jim Davis and Michael Graham welcome Patrick Miller to discuss the meaning of casual dechurching. They address the idea of casual dechurching and provide insights into why roughly three-quarters of those who have dechurched fit this category. You'll learn how we can better engage this group of people and why there is tremendous hope that many of them will return to church.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode topic and guest introduction (0:00)
• Dechurching and a missional call to Gen Z (4:00)
• Who are the casually dechurched and why did they leave? (6:06)
• Church size and COVID-19 (10:22)
• Re-engaging and what has worked in Miller's context (17:06)
• The use of technology in re-engaging the dechurched (19:13)
• Six different profiles of churchgoers (24:54)
• Four categories of church evangelicals (26:45)
• Close friendship and discipleship (28:38)
• Trusting the Holy Spirit and being intentional (33:53)
• Practically engaging the dechurched through discipleship (41:50)

This episode is part of As In Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in US history. To learn more about this phenomenon upon which the episodes of this season are based, pre-order The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Michael Aitcheson welcome Collin Hansen to discuss the historical roots of dechurching. Hansen delves into events like the Enlightenment and the First Great Awakening, biblical criticism, the rise of the internet and technology, and more. You'll learn how these historical moments can inform how we navigate and understand dechurching in America today.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and topic intro (0:00)
• Historical factors behind dechurching (1:38)
• The Enlightenment (5:30)
• The First and Second Great Awakenings (9:18)
• The influence of the Civil War and the abolition of slavery (14:48)
• The "social gospel" and its criticism (19:04)
• Civil religion in American history (26:00)
• The rise of the religious right and the decline of Christianity (29:21)
• Issues and scandals of the religious right (34:51)
• How have the last 20 years changed the church? (40:19)
• How to develop a theological vision of the church (46:12)

This episode is part of As In Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in US history. To learn more about this phenomenon upon which the episodes of this season are based, pre-order The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As In Heaven, host Jim Davis welcomes guests Ryan Burge and Michael Graham to discuss the dechurched in America—who are they and why did they leave? They discuss detailed insights about the 40 million adult Americans who have dechurched in the last 30 years and talk in-depth about the four different profiles of dechurched evangelicals.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and guest introduction (0:00)
• Defining "dechurching" and why it matters (2:36)
• The research and how to understand the data (7:36)
• Six main profiles of the dechurched in America (14:04)
• A deeper look at cultural Christians (17:36)
• Understanding mainstream evangelicals (22:15)
• Demographics of people leaving the church (28:03)
• Opportunities to better engage the dechurched (33:06)
• Defining and understanding the BIPOC group (38:18)
• Understanding dechurching among the Catholic group (42:22)
• The role of education in the dechurching movement (44:49)
• College students and religious literacy (47:01)
• Closing thoughts and looking forward (48:02)

This episode is part of As In Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in US history. To learn more about this phenomenon upon which the episodes of this season are based, pre-order The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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In this episode of As In Heaven, Jim Davis, Mike Aitcheson, Michael Graham, and Skyler Flowers give a preview of the third season of the podcast, which focuses on dechurching in America.

The hosts define key terms used throughout the season and discuss who the decurched are, how we can help, and where we're headed as the church in America.

The bad news is bad—roughly 40 million people have left the church over 30 years. But the good news is good—there's something we can do as the body of Christ to bring people back and love them in a gospel-centered way.

Episode time stamps:

• Introduction to the show and hosts (00:00)
• Overview of the season topic and episodes (3:40)
• Michael Graham's favorite episodes (5:16)
• Mike Aitcheson's favorite episodes (5:56)
• Skyler Flowers's favorite episodes (7:58)
• Jim's favorite episodes (9:38)
• Invitation to episode 1 (11:32)

This episode is part of As In Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in US history. To learn more about this phenomenon upon which the episodes of this season are based, pre-order The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.

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Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson talk live at TGC's 2021 national conference with Dr. Tim Keller and Dr. Irwyn Ince about a biblical theology of race and justice. The panel explores the similarities of the course 1940s Carl Henry charted between fundamentalism and liberalism, and how maintaining a prophetic witness will be important as we observe the phenomena of dechurching and deconversion.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. How does Tim Keller define mishpat? 2. How does Irwyn Ince define shalom? 3. What inferences are drawn as to the relationship of mishpat to shalom? 4. As you observe our cultural moment, what things today bring you to a place of lament? 5. As you observe our cultural moment, what things today bring you to a place of encouragement? 6. What are some of the negative consequences of failing to pursue mishpat and shalom in this particular conversation? 7. What does good leadership look like in such difficult and complex conversations?

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Soong Chan-Rah to discuss reclaiming the church from cultural captivity and the specific ways that Western attitudes of individualism have crept into our modern ministry philosophies. Rah shares insights regarding the ethics of the kingdom and paints a picture of hopes and dreams for the future. Rah focuses on the positive gospel opportunities in addressing race and justice with kingdom ethics.

• An introduction to Soong Chan-Rah (:58)
• Cultural shifts in objections to the gospel (2:54)
• The significance of minority leadership in this shift (9:43)
• The Next Evangelicalism: Freeing the Church From Western Cultural Captivity (13:27)
• “Captivity” in the conversation (17:11)
• Advice for church leadership in these conversations (21:14)
• “Aren’t we pas this now?” (28:10)
• How important it is for the church to get this cultural moment right (33:55)
• What happens when churches dismiss these cultural conversations (37:59)
• The church’s two minute drill (42:44)
• Hopeful realism (49:21)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. What are some biblical truths that the church stands by that you see the church as failing to live into? 2. What does it mean that we should embrace “the full biblical narrative”? In the arc of that narrative, which parts of the narrative do you see yourself latching on to more easily? 3. What are ways that the church has gone into “captivity” to western values? What are ways you have seen this in our bible reading? In our community life? In Christian engagements with social issues? 4. What are ways that we can remember the sins of our past corporately in regard to how the church has engaged with minority racial groups? What gospel hope does Jesus offer in our remembering? 5. What are your hopes for the future of the Western Church? How do you hope to see the church embrace values that are biblical, rather than cultural? What would that look like for your local church?

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Denine Blevins to the podcast to discuss the importance of cultural competency, both at the individual and the organizational level. Blevins also shares how cultural competency within Christian organizations must be different and distinct from the boiler plate secular diversity training in other workplaces. Blevins draws out some best practices in leading your organization into greater cultural competency so that you don’t undermine your organization’s core mission.

• An introduction to Denine Blevins (:58)
• Parakaleo (4:18)
• How Parakaleo came to be (8:45)
• Moments that shape the organizational competency of Parakeleo (11:36)
• The Office and cultural competency (20:13)
• How to know your organization is ready for cultural conversations (26:09)
• How to help your organization grow in cultural competency (29:04)
• Landmines for organizations looking to grow in cultural competency (37:03)
• God’s character revealed in the process (38:57)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. How can organizational systems actually include or exclude certain people or cultures? What are examples of organizational systems that could potentially work to include or exclude? 2. Think of your church or work place. Who do your organizational systems currently primarily cater to? Who do they possibly exclude? 3. How do secular answers to cultural difference and preference in organizational systems fail? How does the Christian response offer a better answer? 4. Why is cultural competency important for organizational leadership? What steps can your organization take to grow in this?

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Mark Vroegop to discuss the role of lament in the conversation on race and justice. Mark shares his own experience with exploring lament in the Bible and the Christian life, including empathy and sympathy and how they serve the conversation on race. Mark shares a helpful framework on how he thinks about racial reconciliation—love, listen, learn, lament, and leverage. Together, they address:

• An introduction to Mark Vroegop (1:16)
• Catalytic moments that drove Mark’s faith journey(4:18)
• Why write about lament (5:53)
• Leading others to lament as a pastor (8:54)
• Preparing your soul for lament (12:42)
• Defining empathy (14:39)
• Experiences that led to Mark’s book on lament (19:55)
• Lament in community (22:11)
• Lament in minority cultures (24:23)
• Lament and racial reconciliation (32:08)
• When lament leads to reconciliation (33:45)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. Have you ever found yourself in a place of lament in your life? If so, when and under what circumstances? How did God use that in your life? 2. How do sympathy and empathy relate to lament? 3. Why is lament important in how we think about the conversation about racial reconciliation? 4. What does it look like to love, listen, and learn in the conversation about racial reconciliation? 5. What does it look like to lament and leverage with an aim towards racial reconciliation?

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Michael Aitcheson welcome Irwyn Ince to discuss biblical strategies for affecting lasting change on both an individual and a church level when it comes to race and justice. Ince offers ways to strive toward gospel centered unity and diversity that he argues goes all the way back to the Trinity. Ince shares practical insights for churches that want to grow in their impact and reach their communities. The three address:

• An introduction to Irwyn Ince (1:45)
• Unity, diversity, reconciliation, and the Trinity(4:36)
• Unity is not conformity (7:33)
• How to help develop unity (10:48)
• A scriptural approach (14:56)
• Coaching those who want to help (19:08)
• How to talk about events capturing the nation’s attention (26:22)
• Navigating language (38:56)
• Taking substantive, long-lasting action (44:00)
• Engaging as a family (49:45)
• Engaging as a church (54:44)
• Roadblocks for the church (1:00:58)
• Engaging in the community (1:06:40)
• Encouragement for churches who want to impact their communities (1:11:16)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. How does the diverse-unity of the Trinity impact our view of the imago dei? How does this manifest itself in the pursuit of community? 2. If there are concerns about the way the church is living out God’s vision for a diverse-unified community, how should a Christian respond? What qualifies should define this sort of engagement with church leadership? 3. What is the Bible’s vision of justice? How does that play out in a social context? How then can we understand and use a term like social justice? 4. Do you think your church manifests the diverse-unity that Dr. Ince talks about? What steps can you take in your church to pursue the Bible’s vision of diverse-unity? How does this look at a leadership level? A personal level?

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This episode has been marked as explicit due to sensitive language related to racial slurs. Please listen with discretion.

In this episode of As In Heaven, host Jim Davis revisits some of the conversations with previous guests of the podcast to explore their personal experiences with law enforcement. This is, of course, a touchy subject, and we address it here not in order to malign police officers, but because we believe this season would be incomplete without these very important stories. Not everyone is aware of some of the dignity robbing or sometimes traumatic encounters that black pastors and professors have had with law enforcement. Empathy and understanding has been the purpose of this show from the start, and that requires that we grasp the fears and wounds of minorities in this cultural moment.

• The reason for these stories (:13)
• Crawford Loritts (3:18)
• Isaac Adams (7:10)
• Darryl Williamson (11:19)
• Carl Ellis (26:00)
• Walter R. Strickand (33:39)
• Jerome Gay (36:28)
• Irwyn Ince (44:35)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. Had you ever heard any stories like these before? 2. What did it feel like to hear so many pastors and professors share their painful, sad, and/or scary stories? 3. Have you ever had an encounter like any of these? If not, what do you think it would feel like in that moment? 4. If these things happened to you, what do you think it would feel like in the future being pulled over? 5. If these things happened to you, what do you think it would feel like when a traumatic video is posted that is triggered by an encounter uncomfortably familiar with one(s) you might have had?

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Jim Davis and Michael Graham welcome Jasmine Holmes to talk through the complexities of parenting in this cultural moment. They discuss the fears and hopes of parents raising black children and what it looks like to help majority culture children process this period of American history. The group addresses:

• An introduction to Jasmine Holmes (1:28)
• The story behind Mother to Son (2:52)
• Current greatest fears in this cultural moment (5:23)
• Divisiveness and echo chambers and fear (7:16)
• The Black “birds and bees” talk (11:00)
• The “talk” with Black boys (15:29)
• Challenges raising Black children in this cultural climate (17:24)
• Coping with the struggles of raising Black children (26:05)
• Hope for parenting Black children in this cultural moment (28:19)
• The source of hope for parents (30:35)
• The importance of community (34:16)
• Learning the nuance and contours of parenting Black children (36:07)
• Helping children understand this cultural moment (38:58)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

Books referenced in this episode:

• Mother to Son: Letters to a Black Boy on Identity and Hope by Jasmine Holmes

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. How was race spoken of in your house growing up? How were major moments of racial strife in the news discussed? What ways might that have been different for other cultures? 2. What fears do you have for your children? How do those fears come from their culture or the color of their skin? How does this play out in conversations with your children? 3. Why is it important for the church to recognize the differences in parenting through this cultural moment? Why is it important for the church to recognize the differences in parenting children of different cultural backgrounds? 4. How can those in the majority culture process these race conversations with their children?

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Jim Davis and Justin Holcomb welcome Trillia Newbell to talk about some of the unique relational dynamics facing black women. Newbell covers being racially profiled as well as many false stereotypes and the exhaustion that black women face as they navigate others’ expectations and perceptions. Newbell shares that the painful or awkward moments in the world also exist in the church, yet there is hope that springs out of lament, having faith in a good God. The three discuss:

• An introduction to Trillia Newbell (1:02)
• Coming to faith in a “holiday Christian” home (2:18)
• Common challenges Black women face in our culture (6:45)
• Picking her battles (9:53)
• Facing down unfair assumptions (13:19)
• False stereotypes of Black women (17:51)
• Stereotypes mirrored in the church (23:58)
• A Christian response to stereotypes (28:42)
• Parenting through racial stereotypes (33:15)
• Creative God, Colorful Us (36:35)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. Have you ever caught yourself thinking of any of the stereotypes of black women in your mind? 2. What kind of emotions come to mind if other people judged a whole group of people by your individual speech, personality, or actions? 3. Were you surprised that all of the same awkward or painful moments experienced outside the church were also experienced inside the church? Why or why not? 4. Can you imagine the cumulative weight of the expectations, stereotypes, perceptions, and awkward or painful interactions over time? If yes, what does it feel like?

Books referenced in this episode:

• God’s Very Good Idea by Trillia Newbell
• Creative God, Colorful Usby Trillia Newbell
• United: Captured By God’s Vision for Diversityby Trillia Newbell
• Sacred Endurance: Finding Grace and Strength for a Lasting Faith by Trillia Newbell

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Disclaimer: This episode has been marked as explicit due to sensitive language related to racial slurs. Please listen with discretion.

Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Jason Cook to share some of the unique relational dynamics of navigating white evangelical spaces as a black pastor. Between super awkward questions, cringeworthy moments, and just downright painful interactions, Jason offers a glimpse into his own experience and encourages believers to grow in hospitality toward those outside of their own cultures. The group discusses:

• An introduction to Jason Cook (1:17)
• Growing up in traditional black churches in the South (2:18)
• Pivotal moments coming to faith (4:30)
• Leading multi-ethnic churches in segregated cities (7:12)
• Awkward moments as a black Christian in majority white evangelicalism (13:07)
• Navigating racial caricatures (17:08)
• Painful experiences as a black Christian in majority white evangelicalism (24:19)
• The long suffering of black people in the American South (31:10)
• Accepted as a black athlete; rejected as a black man (35:01)
• Unearthing cultural prejudices (44:43)
• Interracial marriage and biracial children (46:24)
• Leading in a church when other leaders have completely different world views (54:07)
• Civil Rights, Right to Life, and Communism (59:57)
• Being yourself as a black man in largely white evangelicalism (1:08:02)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. How is it different for minorities to navigate predominantly white spaces verses how whites navigate these same spaces? What does this look like in the church? 2. How can the church give space to other cultures to pursue the vision of a multi-ethnic church? What might keep a church from doing this? 3. What are typical struggles churches face when moving towards multi-ethnic leadership? What gives rise to these struggles? How do churches support and submit to voices and cultures that are different to theirs?

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Jim Davis and Justin Holcomb welcome Sheila Wise Rowe, author and executive director of the Rehoboth House, to discuss racial trauma and the many ways it can present itself cognitively, emotionally, behaviorally, and physically. Rowe describes how Christians should engage others who have experienced racial trauma, in an effort to close the trauma gap and bring healing. The group discusses:

• An introduction to Sheila Wise Rowe (1:06)
• Defining trauma (1:50)
• Causes of trauma (6:21)
• Helping those unfamiliar with trauma to understand (8:06)
• The effects of trauma (11:19)
• Secondary trauma (14:06)
• The effects of secondary trauma (15:44)
• Defining racial trauma and its effects (19:52)
• Microaggression (28:57)
• Gaslighting (31:15)
• Feeling racial trauma (33:05)
• Learning to listen (36:22)
• Unknowingly exacerbating racial trauma (42:29)
• Empathy (45:44)
• Lamenting racial trauma (47:44)
• Healing racial trauma (50:20)
• Dealing with skeptics (56:10)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

Discussion Questions:

1. What do you think of when you think of trauma? What are examples of trauma?

2. What is a trauma gap? Why does it exist? Why must the church seek to understand the trauma of others, especially those who have experienced racial trauma?

3. What is vicarious trauma? What are examples of vicarious trauma? How can that play out repeatedly through media and lived experiences?

4. How can we seek to understand and relate to others trauma? What might this look like? How does the gospel speak to trauma and, specifically, racial trauma?

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Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson continue a conversation with Jon Aragón and Ameen Hudson, picking up with power dynamics in culture and society and the concept of transitional justice as a means to bridging the gaps in America's traumatic racial history. Aragón and Hudson share the things they would wish the church would embrace in this cultural moment. The group addresses:

• Power differentials in scripture (:34)
• How Jesus addressed power differentials (8:42)
• Understanding transitional justice (16:29)
• Taking justice seriously (25:28)
• Promoting greater human flourishing for minorities (31:13)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:

1. Why is it powerful for the church to own wrongs of the past even if the church today did not participate in them? Where might the Bible point to the need to do this? How could this shape the church for the future?

2. What would it look like for the church to embrace a more robust view of justice that applies the whole testimony of scripture to this world? What will it cost the church?

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Jon Aragón and Ameen Hudson to discuss the nuances of the Afro-Latino experience, and the ways in which language and code switching relate to power dynamics from a pastoral and cultural perspective. The group addresses:

• An introduction to Jon Aragón and Ameen Hudson (1:13)
• Afro-Latinos in South America (3:50)
• Afro-Latinidad culture in the US (8:17)
• Afro-Latina diaspora (17:43)
• Afro-Carribean, American Descendants of Slavery, and African Americans (24:04)
• Speaking to White Americans as an Afro-Latino (26:14)
• African American Vernacular English (30:15)
• Code switching (39:37)
• Understanding the heart behind code switching (45:05)
• “Not sounding like you’re black” (52:26)
• Code switching in the Christian community (58:22)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:

1. What has been your understanding of the Afro-Latino diaspora? How does this history shape the way we relate to those of Afro-Latino descent?
2. Why is it important to recognize the unique cultural realities that the Afro-Latino diaspora presents? How does this impact the church?
3. How have you generally interpreted and understood the history and development of African American Vernacular English (AAE)? How did the history Ameen Hudson presented change your view?
4. What is code switching? Why do those in minority cultures feel the need to code switch? Why does understanding this help give full affirmation to the humanity of a person?
5. How does the diversity of language and cultures offer a beautiful picture of who God is and how he acts in the world?

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Disclaimer: This episode has been marked as explicit due to sensitive language related to racial slurs. Please listen with discretion.

In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Jerome Gay to discuss and define dominant and subdominant cultural dynamics and break down how members of each group can interact in an understanding way that promotes deeper love for each other and for God. Jerome Gay helps us see and avoid some common mistakes and pitfalls like power dynamics, preferences, and self-hatred. The group addresses:

• An introduction to Jerome Gay (1:07)
• Defining dominant and subdominant culture (2:18)
• Differences between dominant and subdominant cultures (4:14)
• Individualism vs. Collectivism (7:06)
• Societal influence (10:15)
• Culture and the Regulative Principle (13:09)
• Cultural impact on exegesis (17:18)
• High profile cultural moments (19:06)
• Subdominant cultures in dominant culture churches (25:28)
• Common misunderstandings of churches in the dominant culture (28:15)
• “We want your color but not your culture.” (30:37)
• What members of the dominant culture should know about subdominant (32:19)
• Why that question matters to gospel advancement (35:24)
• Internal dynamics between subdominant cultural groups (40:48)
• Urban apologetics (52:30)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:

1. What does it mean for there to be a dominant and minority culture? How would you identify the dominant culture and minority culture in America? Your church?

2. What are some values that might be different between a dominant and minority culture?

3. Jerome Gay points to the values of individualism and collectivism. How do these values shape the church and how does this differ between cultures?

4. What does it look like for a dominant culture to become domineering? What are ways that can happen subtly or unintentionally? How does this impact the church?

5. How does a church seek to make space for both dominant and minority cultures in its ministry and worship?

Books referenced in this episode:

• The Whitewashing of Christianity: A Hidden Past, A Hurtful Present, and A Hopeful Future by Jerome Gay
• Divided by Faith by Michael O. Emerson and Christian Smith
• Rediscipling the White Church by David W. Swanson

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Dr. Walter Strickland as he traces the history of the black church from its formation to present day. Walter Strickland covers origins, major developments, key figures, regional differences, misunderstood perspectives, evaluation of liberation theology, and the institutional, cultural, and sociological roles the black church has played in black communities. The group discusses:

• An introduction to Walter Strickland (1:04)
• How and why the Black church came about (2:39)
• Tension in the desire for unity (6:17)
• Early prominent Black institutions (8:03)
• Key developments of the Black church in Reconstruction (9:12)
• The effect of suffering on Black theological developments (19:16)
• Why Black people tend to identify with Moses (34:00)
• Differences in Black church development in the North vs. the South (36:45)
• How the Great Migration affected the development of the Black Church (38:59)
• Key pre-Civil Rights leaders (43:37)
• Jim Crow laws and the Black church (52:11)
• Black Liberation theology (56:30)
• Developments of the post-Civil Rights era (1:03:04)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

Discussion Questions:

1. Why has there historically been a separation between black and white churches? What gave rise to this?

2. In what ways does Christ’s work on the cross give the Christian hope in their daily lives? In the ways we suffer? How does the black church give the church an example to follow in appropriating Christ’s story into ours?

3. How do the theological commitments of the black church that Dr. Strickland describes impact the church’s life in this world? How does this rich theological heritage challenge or affirm your understanding of theology in black Christian tradition?

4. How might understanding this history help us as the church to fully live out the gospel and its implications for community?

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Justin Holcomb welcome Dr. Christina Edmondson who brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to bear as she examines some well-meaning but ultimately unhelpful tropes and perspectives regarding black people in America. Edmondson further shows us the ways in which white supremacy deeply harms the white supremacist. The group discusses:

• An introduction to Christina Edmondson (:38)
• Colorblindness (3:08)
• Gnosticism and melanin (8:04)
• All Lives Matter (11:08)
• Black fatherlessness (15:39)
• A sin issue, not a skin issue (23:39)
• The game plan of sin (28:36)
• Just preaching the gospel (30:05)
• Our embodied confession (35:55)
• Black-on-Black crime (37:32)
• Nine Black people killed by white officers (41:49)
• Using POC voices against POC who are hurting (48:22)
• Responding to propaganda (50:42)
• Helpful ways to engage the race conversation (52:49)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.

DISCUSSON QUESTIONS:1. How have you seen or believed in a type of colorblindness? Why is “colorblindness” problematic for Christians to believe?

1. What do you hear when you hear someone say “all lives matter”? How does a statement like “all lives matter”—while being true—become unhelpful when discussing matters of injustice?

2. How does an argument defeater like pointing to “fatherlessness” or “black on black crime” actually point toward historical events and unjust social structures?

3. What are ways that saying “just preach the gospel” instead of speaking against injustice actually fails to see full gospel implications? How does the gospel shape our interactions with society and social structures?

4. Pray that the Lord would search us and know our hearts. Pray that the Lord will move us to repentance in the areas he reveals.

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Carl Ellis helps us understand the difference between “Side A theology”—propositional theology arrived at through rationality and “Side B theology”—ethical theology arrived at through intuition. He unpacks the ways in which  the evangelical church fell into cultural captivity during the lion's share of the 20th century, resulting in deep ethical failures, especially in sins of omission during the Civil Rights Movement and beyond. Ellis shares how our care for ethical theology is critical for a skeptical world in our secular age. Ellis also explores some of the more obscure, yet highly impactful figures of the historical black church. The group discusses:

• Introduction of Carl Ellis (1:07)
• Side A and Side B theology and how it affects race conversations (4:03)
• Clarifying parameters of Side A and Side B theology (13:10)
• Why churches struggle with Side B theology (17:09)
• How deficient Side B theology hinders churches in carrying out Christ’s mission (27:41)
• The importance of Moses to the historic Black church and Side B theology (32:11)
• Tuskegee Airmen, the GI Bill, and being shut out of the commercial airline industry (40:49)
• The Civil Rights Movement as a Christian, cultural apologetic (46:28)

Explore more from TGC on the topics of race and slavery.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. How would you have traditionally defined “theology”? Does your answer betray an affinity towards “side-A theology”—propositional theology arrived at through rationality or “side-B theology”—ethical theology arrived at through intuition?

1. As a church, does your church see an affinity towards side-A or side-B theology?

2. What does it look like for a church to champion side-A theology? What about side-B theology?

3. To meet this modern movement, what would a biblically grounded side-B theology look like?

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Justin Holcomb welcome Phillip Holmes in to offer his perspective on some of the differences between individual and systemic or systematic racism. Holmes connects these elements to biblical categories like total depravity and unpacks several examples from his own life. He shares the ways in which these things can manifest themselves as prejudice, bias, discrimination, antagonization, and hatred. The group discusses:

• Introduction of Phillip Holmes (1:11)
• Defining individual and institutional racism (1:48)
• Categories of racism (4:20)
• Why holding to gradations of racism is unhelpful (6:54)
• Overt racism vs. implicit (9:13)
• Racism and the sin of partiality (14:34)
• A biblical view of systemic racism (21:04)
• A need for reconstruction (27:46)
• Being racist without saying the N word (31:51)
• Total depravity and systemic racism (37:07)
• Holmes’ personal experiences with institutional and personal racism (44:01)

Explore more from TGC on the topics of race and slavery.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: 1. How would you define racism in general? When you think of racism, is it primarily individual actions or corporate?

1. How have you heard systemic or institutional racism defined? How would you define it? Are there any examples you can think of from history or today?

2. What are Biblical texts (both Old and New Testament) that shape your view of racism? What doctrinal convictions speak to the scope of racism?

3. How might doctrines like total depravity help us to understand systemic racism?

4. What hope does the gospel offer to broken systems?

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In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Collin Hansen to continue a discussion of the history of black people in America begun over the past two episodes by Ligon Duncan. Duncan discussed the onset of chattel slavery in 1619 up to the Civil War, the sordid practices of peonage, vagrancy laws, and sharecropping and how they helped pave the way for Jim Crow laws in America.

Hansen furthers the conversation, picking up with the Civil Rights Movement, which certainly did not relieve racial tensions in the South, but simply drove them underground. Hansen addresses what was left undone in the Civil Rights era and how that's led to ongoing present-day frustrations for black people in America. The group discusses:

• Introduction of Collin Hansen (1:31)
• Key events that brought about the Civil Rights Movement (2:30)
• George Wallace, politics, and students at the University of Alabama (13:05)
• “Letter from the Birmingham Jail” (21:58)
• National developments through the 1960s (26:18)
• What was left undone in the Civil Rights Movement, specifically in churches (32:32)
• Segregation academies (38:24)
• Where things have gotten worse (43:21)
• Challenges facing urban communities post integration (45:38)
• Fight, flight, and forget (48:49)
• Making it personal (51:30)
• Issues that continue to contribute to the Black experience in America (55:50)

Explore more from TGC on the topics of Race and Slavery.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. What stories did you grow up hearing about the civil-rights movement? What narrative have you been taught concerning this era?

1. If your group has time, read "Letter from Birmingham Jail." What are ways that this letter speaks powerfully today?

2. Following the civil-rights movement, what are ways that segregation and inequality continued to exist?

3. How did the church respond to the civil-rights movement? How has the church continued to be shaped by these events?

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In this episode of As In Heaven, Jim Davis and Justin Holcomb welcome back Ligon Duncan for the second of a two-part discussion of the history of black people in America. Duncan began with the onset of chattel slavery in 1619 up to the Civil War in the last episode. In this episode, he addresses the sordid practices of peonage, vagrancy laws, and sharecropping and how they helped pave the way for Jim Crow laws in America. Understanding these historical realities will help white believers understand how they still play a part in our cultural moment and grow a greater empathy for our black brothers and sisters. The group discusses:

• Reconstruction and its flaws, a lesser known era (2:00)
• Black Codes and Reconstruction (9:57)
• Sharecropping and its abuses (18:20)
• Self-perpetuation of “slavery by another name” (20:57)
• Discouraging Black people from voting (24:07)
• A horrific legacy outside the law (26:30)
• The Cloistering of Black people (34:22)
• Isn’t it all just history? (38:25)
• Dr. Ligon and changing the Mississippi flag (43:01)

Explore more from TGC on the topics of Race and Slavery.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. What narrative did you learn about the period following the Civil War, especially reconstruction? What are differences from that narrative from the narrative that Dr. Duncan shares?

1. What are some major events and policies from this era that created or maintained oppressive systems towards black Americans? How did those policies and events shape the future?

2. What are things from this era that have had a profound effect on America today? What about the church today?

3. Why might the histories presented in these first two episodes on the history of race in America be important conversations for the church to have today?

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Jim Davis and Justin Holcomb welcome Ligon Duncan in the first of a two-part discussion of the history of Black people in America. Duncan begins with the onset of chattel slavery in 1619 and carries us all the way to the Civil War. Understanding these historical realities will help White believers understand how they still play a part in our cultural moment and grow a greater empathy for our black brothers and sisters. The group discusses:

• Introduction and background for Ligon (1:10)
• How chattel slavery began (2:43)
• Africans selling other Africans into slavery (8:40)
• Tribal identity and the slave trade (11:27)
• Conditions on slave ships (13:30)
• Impact of slavery on the early colonies (17:53)
• Slave Codes (23:00)
• How the Bible was misused to support slavery (27:07)
• People and movements who fueled abolition (33:34)
• How slavery and segregation affected the development of churches and denominations (38:00)
• The fundamental purpose of the Civil War (43:53)
• The Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 and Dred Scott vs. Sandford (48:21)
• Ligon Duncan’s personal journey (52:13)

Explore more from TGC on the topics of Race and Slavery.

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In this episode of As in Heaven, Jim Davis and guest host, Skyler Flowers, welcome Darryl Williamson to continue the conversation on race and justice.

Williamson addresses the wide spectrum of opinions on the race issue and our tendency to try to find voices that agree with our preconceived notions. He claims the antidote is a posture of empathetic listening, which he unpacks with examples from his own life in a very pastoral and charitable way.

The group discusses:

• Introduction and background for Darryl (1:25)
• Understanding the Black experience in America (4:02)
• Societal institutions and the Black experience (10:39)
• No monolithic Black perspective or experience (15:24)
• The bell curve of Black opinion on race and justice (21:55)
• Processing a spectrum of voices, including social media (24:35)
• Loving interaction with the full spectrum of opinions (30:14)
• Encouragement for those on the extremes of the spectrum (35:00)
• Understanding confirmation bias (41:55)
• Practicing gospel listening (47:30)

Explore more from TGC on the topic of Race. Check out a panel discussion, including Darryl Williamson, titled “Learning from Jesus on Justice.”

Discussion Questions:

1. On the topic of race, which voices do you most frequently listen to? Where do you listen to them and why?

2. In light of the discussion on a black bell curve, which side of the curve would you place the voices you most frequently listen to? For those black voices whom you disagree with, how do you come to find out about their perspectives?

3. What should our posture be when engaging with different voices on this topic, especially those that disagree with us? What are postures that are unhelpful?

4. Do you think it is important to engage with voices across the spectrum of voices? What are ways to do this?

5. How should our conversations differ from the world? How should this affect the world around us?

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Trevin Wax drills down on his idea of multi-directional leadership and how it relates to our national conversation on race and justice. He helps us understand some of the dangers on either side of the political spectrum on this topic as well as the relative proportional size of those respective threats. Wax shows us how the historic black church offers us a paradigm for cultural engagement in our secular age and encourages us to embrace a posture of humility as we enter into these challenging conversations.

The group addresses:

• Introduction and background for Trevin (1:30)
• Defining multi-directional leadership (3:43)
• Speaking prophetically as a leader (6:36)
• Application to race conversations (11:06)
• Racial injustice and evangelicalism (15:04)
• Evangelicalism and Black Lives Matter (19:35)
• Problematic associations in race conversations (23:38)
• Barriers to engaging in this conversation well (27:34)
• Differences between the Civil Rights Movement and Black Lives Matter (34:00)
• Learning from the historically Black church (39:25)

Questions to discuss with your family and community:

1. How would you define a one-directional leader? What are the threats of one-directional leadership? How would you define multi-directional leadership?

2. What are examples we see in the Bible of multi-directional leadership? How were Paul and James talking about the same doctrine of justification but guarding that doctrine from different errors from opposite directions?

3. What do you view as the greatest threat to the American church today? Which side of the spectrum do you most naturally see these threats coming from?

4. If you were to stray from biblical orthodoxy (right beliefs or doctrine) or orthopraxy (right or ethical actions or behaviors) on one side of the field, which way would it be? What are ways you can bring voices into your life that would help with that drift?

5. How can we apply the principles of multi-directional leadership to how we process uppercase “Black Lives Matter” (the organization) and lowercase “black lives matter” (the statement of human dignity)?

6. As the church loses the cultural authority it has enjoyed, what are ways it can learn to lead and lead “from the margins”? How does the historic black church help us in this leading from the margins?

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Isaac Adams unpacks certain painful aspects of the broken trust in American culture and in the church. He talks about the challenges of being profiled, leaned upon as people’s “one black friend,” de facto segregated society, redlining, over-policing, and the long tail of the cumulative effects of these and a number of other things.

Adams explains how public videos like George Floyd elicit secondary trauma in black persons due to other negative incidents from their own lives, as well as the ways in which there is a greater collective cultural dynamic. Adams unpacks the ways in which people interpret data and encourages how it relates to humility, compassion, and kindness.

Encouraging us to believe black people when they share their experiences instead of putting them on trial, Adams also urges us to pray for human flourishing in this cultural moment, sharing why he started United? We Pray.

The hosts and Isaac Adams discuss:

• Introduction and background for Isaac (1:51)
• “Why is there so much anger out there?” (3:36)
• Factors (injustices) that fuel anger (8:14)
• Black people in plain sight, yet unseen (13:00)
• Basic primer on historical racial pains (13:36)
• Redlining, accumulated wealth, over-policing, and a growing national concern (16:58)
• The symbolism of a police knee on a George Floyd’s neck (22:04)
• Why we should care (26:52)
• Personal experiences of racism in Israel Adams’ life (28:49)
• Continuing to care when you feel overwhelmed (30:50)
• Engaging the conversation in a redemptive manner (34:38)
• United We Pray—encouragement to pray together through these issues (40:30)
• A hopeful vision for the church in these volatile times (45:01)

Questions to discuss with your family and community:

1. What might be factors that limit our perspective on other cultures? What factors might limit our perspective on acts of injustice?

2. When you think of a racist action, what type of things come to your mind? How might other ethnicities answer this question differently?

3. How might Christians lead on issues of injustice? How would that be different than what the world has to offer?

4. What can we do on this matter that would make the world say, “Wow, look at the way they love each other”?

5. End in prayer. Pray for our country, city, and community. Pray that God would make these places where justice thrives. Pray that God would open our hearts to hear the instruction and rebuke of voices that are different from ours. Pray that God would make us more loving in our listening, speaking, and care for one another, that the world may see our good deeds and glorify God.

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Crawford Loritts shares how love is a preamble for why we ought to care about the conversation about race and justice. He explains why love means that we don’t just get to walk away from the conversation and how black people have no choice whether to have it or not. Loritts helps frame the conversation while providing excellent working definitions for a number of challenging, technical terms. The hosts and Crawford Loritts discuss:

• Introductions and the basics (1:51)
• Why we do cultural exegesis (4:53)
• Comprehend, Commend, and Critique (7:36)
• Defining “race” (11:05)
• Biblical distinctions within definitions regarding race (13:14)
• Biological fiction, sociological reality (16:01)
• The problem with being “colorblind” (18:36)
• The sin of partiality (23:01)
• Breaking down partiality (26:35)
• Omission and Commission (32:29)
• The subtleness and seductiveness of sin (36:14)
• Justice (40:04)
• White Privilege (45:58)
• White Fragility (51:18)
• Framing Our Cultural Moment (54:44)

Questions to discuss with your family and community:

1. Why are each of the three components of good cultural exegesis necessary (comprehend, commend, and critique)? Why is it important for Christians to do cultural exegesis? What happens when cultural exegesis involves only critique but little to no comprehension or commendation?

2. What does the Bible say about racism, and how did racism manifest itself in the early church?

3. What sin is at the heart of racism?

4. What practical ways do the Scriptures offer to kill racism at the heart level?

5. What is the biblical definition of justice and how does it apply to our cultural moment?

6. Peter writes on how we should deal with each other by writing, “Clothe yourself with humility.” How does it apply to our conversations and relationships with people of different ethnicities?

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As in Heaven, hosted by Jim Davis and Michael Aitcheson, is a new podcast in The Gospel Coalition podcast network. Jim, Mike, and guest co-hosts will talk with more than two dozen ministry leaders about how to faithfully process our national conversation on race and justice. These conversations will help listeners think through racial justice biblically, historically, and relationally. Our prayer is that our spheres of influence would be places that look more like God’s kingdom—where love reigns, humanity flourishes, and Christ is glorified.

Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Tune in to Episode 01 with Crawford Loritts on Monday, October 5.

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Today’s guests are Dee Coleman and Lindsey Holcomb. Both of them serve at Samaritan Village, Dee as the executive director and Lindsey as the communications coordinator. According to their website, Samaritan Village is a safe home and therapeutic program for adult survivors of sex trafficking.

This episode is by far one of the most eye-opening, emotional, and practical on the podcast thus far. There were several moments where all of us in the room were left speechless as Dee and Lindsey unpacked the realities of sex trafficking in 2020, specifically in Orlando.

We don’t intend for this episode to invoke fear, but simply to educate and encourage action for those who’ve been victimized by this unspeakable practice.

As a disclaimer, the following conversation includes descriptions of sexual abuse and content some listeners or young ears may find unsettling. Listener discretion is advised.

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Our guest on this episode is Dr. Scott Swain. Dr. Swain is President and James Woodrow Hassell Professor of Systematic Theology at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando, Florida.

He unpacks some of the origin story of Reformed Theological Seminary, how he strives to maintain a healthy organizational culture among a diverse staff, and how he thinks through the future of theological education.

It was a pleasure to pick Dr. Swain’s brain on this episode, and we’re glad he agreed to chat.

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Today’s guest is Damein Schitter. He’s Senior Pastor at New City Presbyterian Church here in Orlando. He is also a visiting professor at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando, where he teaches evangelism.

In this interview, Damein dives into the way Christians conceive of and practice discipleship. Rather than just a few spiritual disciplines, Damein details how churches and Christians should be seeking a whole-life discipleship. If Christ is Lord of all of our lives, our discipleship practices must reach into the workplace, our home lives, our finances, and our leisure time.

Damein has thought and written a lot on this issue, and it was great to have him on the show to explain it.

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Today’s guest is Zach Van Dyke. Zach is the teaching pastor at Summit Church Herndon Campus. He also teaches for Key Life and can be heard weekly on the nationally syndicated radio program Steve Brown, Etc.

Zach began his tenure at Summit in the wake of an abrupt succession and eventual tragedy surrounding the previous pastor, leaving much of his congregation reeling. In this interview, he discusses how he navigated the difficult waters of trauma at his church, how Summit successfully reaches and nurtures millennial Christians, and how he processes Orlando’s increasingly post-Christian culture.

Zach is a humble, down-to-earth guy who clearly has a massive heart for both his congregation and his city. We really loved the time we got to spend with him.

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Our guest on this episode is Michael Aitcheson. Mike is the senior pastor and planter of Christ United Fellowship (PCA) and is deeply involved in ministering to downtown Orlando.

He tells us how he went from playing football at the University of Kentucky to planting churches in Central Florida, and gives us a glimpse of the joys and struggles of starting a church from scratch.

He unpacks the story of Division street and some of the historic racial tensions in Orlando, and what it means to shepherd a diverse congregation as a local pastor.

Mike is a lovely guy and we were honored to have him on the podcast.

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Leigh Swanson serves as Vice President of Community Relations at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando.

She’s also a trained theologian, teacher, and speaker.

In our conversation, Leigh talks about why her course on teaching women to teach the Bible has exploded so quickly in Orlando and beyond; she unpacks a healthy way to think through biblical manhood and womanhood, and shares her personal thoughts on the Billy Graham rule and how it applies to Christian women in the workplace.

Leigh is a fount of knowledge and a pure joy to be around. We are delighted to have her on the podcast.

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Today’s guest is Vicky Matthews. Vicky is the Executive Director of Choices Women’s Clinic, which exists, “to equip and encourage women and men to make informed pregnancy decisions.”

In this episode, Vicky shares her story of being a young woman with a crisis pregnancy, the way that Choices Women’s Clinic cares for men and women before and after challenging pregnancy decisions, and stories of the ways that the Lord has worked in the lives of so many men and women in Orlando.

Vicky’s passion and love for the image of God in all people is inspiring, and our conversation was equal parts emotional and educational.

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We’re excited to kick off episode 1 of As In Heaven with our guest, is Dr. Joel Hunter. Dr. Hunter is the retired pastor of Northland Church, one of the largest churches in the Central Florida area. He served at Northland Church for over three decades in addition to serving as the spiritual advisor for President Barack Obama. His impressive career is matched only by his humility and heart to serve the hurting and disenfranchised, specifically in Orlando.

In this interview, Joel talks about how Martin Luther King Jr.’s assassination catalyzed his faith, he shares lessons he’s learned after 30 long years in ministry, and even gives us a glimpse into intimate interactions he had with President Obama.

Every minute of this episode is solid gold, and it was a privilege to have Dr. Hunter on the show.