Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Taraba: Recent Episodes

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Gissele:

Hello, and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Gissele. . We believe that loving compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Today, we’ll be talking about dealing with grief. With compassion.

Today’s guest is Dr. Jan Schwartz. Who is the president of forensic fraud research Inc. She is a fellow of the American psychological association. Fellow of the American academy of forensic sciences. And this is a certified Homeland protection professional. With the national Sheriff’s association. Her book last summer with Oscar. He came an international bestseller on amazon.com. Her new book. Authentic intelligence. How do you use your emotional, mental, and spiritual gifts to create the life and world you want is bound to gain the same recognition and accolades. Please join me in welcoming Jan. Hi, Jan.

Jan: Good morning, Gissele. A warm hello to you and to all of your listeners.

Gissele: Thank you. Thank you so much. I just want to start by sharing a little bit about how I sort of ended up finding your story. In particular, I was going through my own journey of my own dog having seizures. And there was a couple of times where my dog, we thought we’re going to lose him. Just because the seizures were really, really bad. And I kind of resigned myself to his, you know, eventual passing. Just because of how bad the seizures had gotten. But then I set the intention for something that would help me not only ease his passing, but actually restore him to the level of wellness that I knew he could get to. But I didn’t know how. And so very interestingly, I didn’t even know how you and I kind of connected, but we started chatting about your book, authentic intelligence. Um, and through conversation, it came out that you had written this other book called last summer with Oscar. And when you look at your credentials, it’s amazing that somebody who is so involved in fraud would end up sort of in this kind of journey that is more spiritual. So wanted to start the podcast by letting the audience know. A little bit about, um, what actually led you to write last summer with Oscar and how did perhaps your perspective shift from focusing on forensic fraud to maybe opening up to there being something else?

Jan: My husband and I returned home from a vacation a holiday. And when we went to pick up the dogs from this wonderful kennel, they said to me, Jan, we’re so sorry, but Oscar didn’t eat. And I was very concerned, wondering why they hadn’t contacted us and these kinds of things.

But rather than focusing on that, I immediately drew my attention to Oscar and his eyes flashed at me with fear when he leaped out [00:03:00] of the kennel and I put them into the car. Needless to say, the next day my husband and I were at the vet and the vet was disturbed by the dramatic weight loss because Oscar was not able to eat.

And my husband is a retired surgeon so he was there examining the x rays and saw that cancer was, had taken over Oscar’s body and came out to tell me with the vet that things Didn’t look good. Well, this was I was devastated. I was just overwhelmed with sorrow and grief. And the immediate thought is.

What can we do to help him? And the vet said, well, he will die because he won’t be able to eat the kind of cancer he has. This is the challenge. They don’t feel like eating and there is great depression with it. So he said there’s chemotherapy, but we [00:04:00] had heard many times from others that had faced a similar diagnosis.

And in this case, it, it the likelihood of it being hemangiosarcoma, which is the worst kind of cancer. One that. A dog can be perfectly healthy one minute and then it just, it’s such a fast spreading cancer, it just becomes a pervasive illness. So we were in that boat and the vet said, well, you can do chemotherapy.

And we knew that there were severe stories of, of pain with that. And, and to, to, to put our dog with such a gentle loving spirit through that, my husband and I immediately said, no. No, we, we’re going to celebrate, we’re going to every day with this dog, we are going to treasure it. We’re going to find the wherewithal and the strength to endure the grief, the sorrow, the frustration of not him eating and all this.

And we just pledged from that moment on together that we were going to [00:05:00] somehow find a way to keep Oscar eating and being very, Much strong individual people. We each found our path doing that. And I stepped into this since I’m, my work is an intelligence gathering person to keep our country and our allies that I’m working with for the betterment of the world.

And I began to view it from an intelligence gathering effort, except This time, I was the student, and here this dog had, had, I, with the role of attentiveness was, the attention was on him, always. And he taught me that, because his eyes, just as his eyes had flashed to me, of fear and vulnerability, and he was scared.

He was then teaching me focus. attentiveness, and I had [00:06:00] dreams that supported all of the stages of adapting to this world. And also I want to say that Winston, Oscar’s litter mate and his faithful companion, they were two devoted brothers Winston knew something was seriously wrong too. So Winston was hypersensitive about being mindful about Oscar.

So, We were all focusing on this dog, and he felt the love and the progression of being his student and he was the teacher, was one where I felt so many times I was in the presence of divine wisdom and that my job, I was being trained to notice things that I could immediately see. would change the path of the day, the week, and so on.

And it is through all of that, that Oscar would suddenly, you know, here he was, just unable to do anything. And on one particular night, may I share with you how, how he, he really got upset when I, Yeah. So we had been in the habit of taking a three mile walk in our incorporated village. And the work that I do keeps me writing or working at all hours of the day.

So to walk late at night is, it was not an uncommon thing for me to do. And this was one of those nights and Oscar came to me and he was excited and he, he, you know, was wagging his tail. Well, of course I was going to stop everything. Okay. You, you know, I would. And, and Winston was, oh my goodness. So Oscar wanted to take a walk.

So up, up to then, you know, we had been holding into our hearts what the vet had said, like there, there wasn’t much of a chance for [00:08:00] Oscar to be around with us for maybe even a short two weeks. So, so for this to happen was what, what is this? And so it was an electrifying moment and I’m so glad I followed it.

Because it changed the course of everything. And it was on this walk that Oscar pulled me. He was always walking on my right and Winston was on my left. You know, they were protecting me from all angles. And Oscar pulled me into this very, very unmaintained stretch of bushes. You know how it is.

And Winston, of course, followed because it could be something very exciting there, some good smells. And so, to my great surprise, Oscar came out and his face was covered with tiny green leaves. And it was beautiful. He went back in, and I heard him inhaling these leaves, and the best [00:09:00] way for me to explain is when we, when we go to the zoo, we see anteaters, and we see how those anteaters, this was what Oscar was doing with, as I found out with these little seedlings, and I don’t want to get ahead of myself, but, but, but that’s what started and he was very excited, had energy for the rest of the walk, and here we were doing a three mile walk from a dog that And What was not eating to this.

This was such a dramatic change that I felt there. This was, I was entering into a project an adventure. And these are how I discuss my investigations and cases. Okay, their adventures and projects. Okay. I said, this is unlike anything. This is. Electrifying for good. This is there is something I have to really, really be focused on paying attention to this dog because this dog has information that I need to pay attention to for others and for us.

So I then in seeing that happen was two nights later. Oscar wanted to go again. And I said to my husband, Richard, you know, something’s going on here. It was the same response coming back. And I said, he said, you know, well, you know, just don’t get your hopes up. You know, how he’s trying to protect me, you know, how, how it is we’re watching like that.

And I said, no, I’m, I’m, I’m going to call in some tree experts. I want to study this. I’m going to take, so I did. I brought in people and I said, here’s where he goes and we parted the bushes and lo and behold, here we saw these, the leaves are missing from these branches and they said, well, it’s some sort of an elm.

And there are 400 varieties, so no one, no one would pin it down and I said, all right, well, let me, let me see about this. So, I’m on the third walk or so with Oscar. One of the subsequent walks, I, I we were going into a different direction and the wind came and the branch of a tree swept down near us and here were these leaves and I tell you, Giselle, all of a sudden, Oscar’s head perked up like, there it is.

There it is, and he wanted, he was following the branch as it then lifted up, and so I thought, okay, I’m going to get one of these leaves. I’m going to look around, and on our way back home from the walk, I saw that there was a big tree in the front of our house. that had these [00:12:00] leaves. There was another tree in our front yard and I said what is going on?

And as I walked the dogs around our front yard, here were little shoots of this. And I began to research and Came to find out that the Slippery Elm tree was the source of this this joy, this healing, this miraculous response of our dog coming to life, renewing himself, and then began my research into Slippery Elm and Giselle this, this, this tree we have, This is the largest, the oldest tree in in our neighborhood, and it is perhaps 175 years old, and the trunk of the slip realm in itself is spellbinding it, it wraps and it has this beauty in that.

But what I learned was that. This tree, the Slippery Elm tree, has been over harvested by the drug companies for years, and how they do it is underneath this bark is this white strip, and it’s a sap, it’s a white strip of sap, and historically this is so significant for Americans because There were two weeks as we learned in sixth grade in American history that George Washington and the troops did not have any food.

And how did they stay alive? Well, I learned that a Native American soldier taught them that the, the, the bark, how to remove the bark from the Slippery M.

Gissele: Right.

Jan: And they stripped the sap off, cut it, and chopped it into gruel, added it, and it made, put water on it, hot water on [00:14:00] it, and it became like a porridge, like an oatmeal, and the nutritional quality of this oatmeal, we call it oatmeal of this Slippery porridge was what sustained them and now what we know the drug companies found out about that and Native Americans have relied on, on herbal and all sorts of natural resources for their, their healing anyway.

So I found out that it historically was this and, and that a tea had been made and maybe you have heard about. Nurse Case up in Canada and she had this S A I T. So your country too had she had she had met with a Native American medicine man because she had an illness and he provided her with this, this tea and taught her how to make it.

And so here Nurse, Nurse Case, C A I S S E. Began working with medical doctors who were treating cancer patients that had no hope that they were at the end of the line of their health and they were willing to try something that would give them a chance to keep living. And these doctors were very courageous because this was a.

Stepping away from the way the pharmaceutical industry was doing things, so you see how progress was made. Some people were stepping out because they wanted to try something that had been helping the Native Americans for years to live. And so her tea, Yasiak tea, and here. What is so amazing in the spirit of sharing good knowledge that benefits all this tea, I learned that the remedy that this tea that the formula for it was even available online for no charge.

That’s how this research went, where the goodness of others that had brought about this, and here it was being given to me because Oscar had led me to this, this this discovery. And so I wrote this book wanting to share this information and, and so much more.

Gissele: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think you said so many great things. The first thing I want to say is that. It has also been my experience that the earth will give you what you need. Like we’re so interconnected with the land that people don’t realize that. Around our house. There were times when our kids would suffer from tummy aches. And what was naturally growing outside was Chamomile. We didn’t know what it was.

And so there’s lots of times where what we’ve needed was actually in the land around us. But we just didn’t have that awareness. It was when we started gardening that we were like, oh my gosh, this is chamomile

one of the things that surprised me the most about your journey as per your book was that you didn’t intend to heal Oscar.

Like your intention really was to spend. As many days as possible with the most joy. And the most presence. And give your dog the happiest time possible. But it ended up that. He ended up being healed from his cancer. Um, that probably was like a shocking experience or was that something you expected from the journey?

Jan: No, I, I, I value your question and it’s a mighty one because you see there were, this was a very active adventure. There were no days off.

Okay, there the nights were, you know, we were up and down when someone has cancer and when a pet has cancer, and especially the way we were going about doing it, we were attentive to his needs, and one of the moments, and I certainly was not thinking healing at all, I just wanted to remain together with him in a connectedness, in a closeness, and to, and to surround him with What I call warmest love.

I’m a deeply spiritual person. And so I know that warmest love was shining upon me, giving me the strength for this journey. And, and, and Giselle, I, I was doing my other projects. I, I was doing, I, I, I would be doing this and I would have to give a keynote speech. I would have to take a test for certification of this that or whatever because I, I was trained to be a family psychologist and I had to the more evidence that I was discovering in white color organized crime.

I, I had to keep growing with that. So I was, boy, I was overextended to say the least, but I was fueled and I was being surrounded with warmest love and I put a capsule around Oscar Winston and Richard, we were all in that capsule of warmest love. But there were moments that, what do we do now? This was not something that you could control.

Okay, so many of us feel like the best way we can stay safe in life is where we have to control things more. Well, this adventure there, there was no control. You were in a state of trusting that you were going to be led by an animal. To the next thing. And one thing I want to tell you that that I, as the seasons, Oscar became ill in summer, and the book is broken up into four [00:20:00] main chapters of seasonal chapters summer, and then fall and then winter and spring and so when we transition to fall.

I was noticing, as we all do in what season we’re in right now, you know, the leaves are falling off. And I thought, what is this going to be like when there are no more leaves for Oscar to take in? And for Winston what are we going to experience? how I decided to handle that was to stay focused on the patient.

On the subject and that was Oscar and he was fine until one night and he and Winston were in a state of such confusion because where they always found slip round was here and then they had backup places and patches in our backyard that miraculously started to come. But every when we came back from the walk, there was nothing there.

And so I came down to my office right where I am now and sat at my computer to start checking things that I needed to do. And interestingly, Oscar came down, sat beside me, did not lie down. He didn’t lay down. He didn’t lie down. He, he was looking at me with these eyes like, I know you’re going to find out what to do next.

And. He was the patient. I stopped everything. Began to look miraculously. I found information about an extraordinary tree called the Graviola tree from the Amazon rainforest and the history of the usefulness of the, of the Graviola tree extract for the world. And the information of the scientific studies that the National Cancer Institute for some reason did not decide to further or follow the, the path of continued research so that it would be get the information would be utilized in a way for humanity.

It was just abruptly. stopped. I read about that and I said, What is this? What has happened? And then I look further. And what had happened were the drug companies try to replicate this The genetic components of the Graviola tree extract, because the Amazon rainforest has protection over, over the rainforest and products and so interestingly, they were unable to replicate the properties.

so, I knew that the important thing was getting a hold of this product immediately. So I overnighted the product.

To our door, you would do the same thing for yours, and I bet many listeners would do the same, and what I’m about to tell you is that it was there. FedEx was perfect, right there in time, and Oscar was waiting with me at the door. He was that in tune. If what I’m about to tell you is we went through we followed the recommended administration of these capsules and it was called Gravizone.

That’s what the product was called. And if we had begun the journey with Gravizone and used Slippery Elm, we would have had an even stronger result. It, the adventure was meant to be this way and it was meant so that I could say to others that Gravis on is even stronger in kicking off a recovery or a healing process.

And what, how he was restored from this, and how he felt about himself was extraordinary. But then. The journey wasn’t just to have two remedies, we ended up discovering six remedies because hemangiosarcoma is a very multifaceted has a multifaceted treatment process and red clover proved to be, thanks to a friend’s suggestion, proved to provide a miraculous result in just days where a [00:25:00] tumor in Oscar’s mouth reduced to I would say maybe reduced by 80 percent so that he was able to swallow and eat past it.

So the book is filled with. Discoveries for those people who enjoy mysteries and adventures. And the vets, you can imagine, we had two vets that were involved in this. They were so, so supportive and they had a sensitivity about, let’s just, Let Oscar be our teacher, not giving advice, just learning from Oscar.

Gissele: And one of the things you mentioned just now, which I think is really important for our listeners to understand is that. This is a journey. This was a journey that had a lot of ups and downs. Like sometimes things would work and sometimes they didn’t. Like sometimes he would eat the [00:26:00] tuna and sometimes he wouldn’t. One of the things that struck me the most was how compassionate you were with yourself. And with your dog throughout the journey. Because that was a challenging journey. There were so many ups and downs and you were so committed to ensuring that both dogs had the best experience, especially Oscar. Was it a conscious choice? What was it just naturally something to do with how you manage those difficult moments? That. You kind of use an inner kindness for yourself as well as for your loved ones.

Jan: Well, it’s, that’s a tough subject I have been born with, excuse me, a capacity to love.

That may be

may be viewed by others who don’t yet know me as something is how, how is this, how did this happen when her life has not been easy. The love comes from the light that I draw in and that light, no matter what, is always, always. Refueling me. I had the best examples of this creative way of loving, and maybe we now can think of this as an implementation of what I call authentic intelligence, but I had the most extraordinary elementary teachers.

who fueled me with creativity and who nurtured my inquiring thoughts with balancing out the mental pursuit with supporting me As I was understanding the subject and also giving me the role model of the love that was mine for the taking because, like all of us, I’m one of God’s children. But in my case, this was personal.

Because of them, my teachers, I viewed God really as God. As my parent, as my father. And so that puts me in a completely different position as I take on any project where my ability to persevere the depth of my commitment is one where the standard that I bring to it is one that has been imprinted on me.

It’s imprinted on all of us. It’s just that I personally drew it in saying that. God is my father. I’m a child of God. So, this is, this is how it happens. This is how, I need to do it. This is how I will know how to do it. So, offering to Oscar and yes, if I may apply some, some, a little bit of the underpinning of authentic intelligence, how to use your mental, emotional, and spiritual gifts to create the life and world you want.

What? I was doing throughout this journey was, if we were to think of three interrelated circles, the top circle on the left is mental intelligence. The circle beside it is emotional intelligence or EQ. Okay. Mental intelligence is IQ. Emotional intelligence is EQ. And then there’s a third intelligence.

That’s the third interrelated circle. And that’s spiritual intelligence. Some people haven’t heard of this. I’ve been finding out about that lately, and there’s a lot of interest in learning more about it, but the, we call that SQ. So, there is an area common to all three circles, and that is my sense of knowing, has been my sense of knowing, and that’s what was fueling me and has fueled me.

On a life that sometimes I refer to myself as a real life Cinderella so, so it is, maybe that’s understood maybe it isn’t, but maybe some would say she just perseveres, or she’s someone who just never, ever lets anyone write the ending. to her story. Okay. There are different ways of perhaps describing me, but above all, I’m someone who taps into that knowing.

I tap into that authentic intelligence. And in my new book, this is what my message is, is that this is our way. To find our answers, to step out of our brokenness to step away from our anguish and just say, okay, wait a minute. Within me are three interrelated circles. So what am I doing with my mental intelligence?

You see, my, my ideas are that we need to feed these intelligences. There is a desperate need. We have this treasure of three intelligences that has to be fed. We can’t just let it go stagnant. They are, they’re yearning for stimulation, so if we feed mental intelligence with tasks like reading books or listening to books perhaps or pondering pertinent quotes or there’s a whole assortment and we’re probably pretty familiar with Mental intelligence.

I don’t want to get away too far from, from your question, but emotional intelligence has very, very specific ways. It’s about reading others and ourselves. And the emotional intelligence is, involves self regulation. That answers to you, it was my job to regulate myself and my sorrow with Oscar and Winston.

It’s about self awareness. It’s about motivating yourself. It’s about developing empathy and about increasing one’s social experiences so that we have a higher level, a higher ability to handle things. And then spiritual intelligence is the soul’s intelligence. It’s our source of creativity. And that we could talk about all of those things more, but this was, I was going between the circles.

And that has been how I lived my life and authentic intelligence in action happens when we see people being able to persevere. And carry on being genuine about the difficulty, but not letting ourselves be stuck there in getting support it from one of the other circles, and you notice how I was constantly going back to mental intelligence where I was researching.

Okay. And then I was being honest with Oscar and Winston and I remember writing, excuse me, and I was. Up under this, the top of the hill in, in the backyard. And I sat beside Oscar and just cried and sobbed and said, I want you to know I am feeling so helpless. And so I’m, I’m open about, about I’m, I’m real about this and I am a private person too, but in this book, I, I’m really am a very private person.

And. As I’ve shared with you pers in a separate occasion doing these podcasts and coming out like this, I’m stepping out of the shadows because when you’re in the intelligence gathering world, you know, you don’t look, you don’t want to be discovered. There’s too many security incidents that happen.

But, but this, this is a time. This is a time there is an urgency in our broken world for us to learn a new way to connect to focus on competing with ourselves, ourselves and connecting with others are, are focused on the three circles so that we can tap into our knowing and draw upon that because goodness.

Every family, every person that’s listening has something going on that they want to feel supported on. And I care. I, I, I understand that the burden can feel enormous, but as human beings, we can. offer something more than just coldness and a separateness and we can share authentically because we’re wired to be authentic human beings.

I hope I answered your question to some degree.

Gissele: Of course. I mean, I think speaking of the three circles you had mentioned, it was really that spiritual aspect of yourself that led you to listen to Oscar, to begin with. Because it’s so easy to ignore, like, you know, your dog constantly asking you to go and do things. But I think you. It was you tapping into that, knowing in the intuition. That you’re supposed to be the student in this particular way. And considering all the accolades in your role, put yourself in a position of a student to a dog it’s really quite astonishing. Especially, you know, Since it’s your dog. Right.

Jan: it was, but it was, it also truly felt like an honor.

It was my honor to be beside him and the goodness of this journey and the changes and the courage of this dog. We would be going for a walk and the police would be coming by and they’d go, Go Oscar! And other people were saying, Hey, you know, here’s this for Oscar. And Gissele, I have to tell you, my husband has his own creative way of, of showing love to dogs.

And, and in this case Oh, everyone has heard about Chick fil A. You have Chick fil A’s perhaps up there, right? Okay, are they perhaps an international wonderful sandwich? Anyway our local Chick fil A got to know Oscar because my husband would go through the drive thru just to keep Oscar eating.

And he would say, I need two plain Chick fil A sandwiches for Oscar my, for my dog, Oscar or our dog, Oscar is something like this. And they would say, excuse me. And he would say, our, my, our dog, Oscar is, is, is very sick with cancer. We’re trying to keep him eating. So I need to come home with. Two sandwiches.

We’re hoping that he will eat it. So, Oscar got, this became a game. And so, he got to know, dogs are very smart, you know. They know when we come home. They know when we leave. They, they know the sound of the different cars and this sort of a thing. So, Richard was There was midday, he was, he was leaving, Oscar knew what this was, so Oscar would move into this one room, we call our son room, and it had this doggy door, so Oscar would then hear Richard come home going through the garage and with the car, and Oscar would be out the doggy door, waiting to meet Richard at the side door for his, piece of Chick fil A sandwich because he needed to gain weight and Winston, our precious Mr.

Winston was on the chubby side. So he couldn’t participate in these, these things. So this is a silliness that people with two dogs, three dogs, they understand that it’s a juggling when one is sick and I’m, you know, with families, it’s, it’s the same. It’s just, Part of the so the journey was definitely up and down and these moments refueled us with the joy.

Gissele: And so we were never stuck on sorrow because right after that came another discovery. Yeah. And one of the things I also saw is that. Um, Oscar’s legacy was. One of community too. Like, um, You were talking about all the different people that came together and rally together. Even if it was just for support. And I think that goes to show you how community can come together with each other. Um, And what’s really happening in our societies that we’ve lost that sense of community.

We’ve lost that sense of togetherness. There seems to be this separation between ourselves and other people. Even a separation from ourselves, I would say. Um, And you were talking about that we lack connection to community with each other. And in your journey with Oscar. It was such a beautiful reminder to me about the importance of community and coming together and helping each other through our experiences. Um, and all that work really did extend Oscar’s life.

Right.

And the magic was so, you know, Oscar did eventually end up passing. And I think that’s where still holding onto the grief with compassion and love. and joy is what you talk about throughout the book. Which is very, very important. Um, enabling you to still enjoy. The time you had but he didn’t die of cancer.

Right. Um, can you talk a little bit about, uh, the kind of miracle that you experienced?

Yes

Jan: my husband Richard and I had always said that as, as time went by and we saw how unique this adventure was, we began to think that there may be an outcome to it that might be something that would be significant for some entity. And there came a time when Oscar looked at me. And he was extremely feeble.

He was no longer able to walk. He was very thin. And he looked at me and the eyes conveyed,

I can’t do this anymore. And I immediately cradled him. in my arms and said, it’s okay, sweetheart, you don’t have to anymore. And our vets were poised for this moment. And they were in two different locations so that they could be however we could put Oscar in a peaceful place after all that he had courageously gone through.

And here we had found these six remedies and we had just Had two weeks, I believe it was two weeks, where he was living, eating, he was eating all three meals. It was clear that he was he had, it was all, had come together. That was our knowing that the remedies were helping him because he wanted to eat, he had an appetite.

So when the moment came, it ended up that this one that Dr. Pearson was available and we had privately spoken to him that would he, would he consider testing Oscar’s tissues for malignancy? Would, did he believe enough in us? And he was such an open minded veteran that, I mean, he, he just said, absolutely, I have been on this journey with you.

I am just as curious as you are what happened and the other Dr. Heller wasn’t available and he was with us in, in his spirit at the time, but when Oscars when Oscar passed away. In our arms in, in Dr. Pearson’s office, his tissues were then tested and when the results came in, Dr. Pearson wanted to meet with us in person.

I love that. Yeah. That, that was such a respectful gesture and he looked at us and said, there’s no malignancy. Anywhere. And then, because this was, this was back in 2011, 2012, I’m trying to think of when I wrote this story, but, you know, so it’s now 12 years later, so life is a little bit different and people are much more open to these situations.

But at the time, this was a rather dramatic result. Yeah. It was, and when I put the book together, and fortunately a the American anyway, the ACFE, American College of Forensic Examiners Institute published the book for me quickly to get the information out so that was a gift. And why it was a gift is there was a veterinary conference coming up, and Dr.

Heller stood up. held the book just like this. He said, this book is something that you need to read because I lived through this journey with this dog and he had many things to say about it and so did Dr. Heller, but it’s because of the interest from veterinary science that it started selling books and for me it was one and interesting connections came, you know, when the book launched in 2013, it was a little bit about a year later when we finally made a formal book launch of it, but then people on Facebook and began to read it and passed it on to to their boss or their friend or, or and there is a story that is quite unbelievable when one person who is in the intelligence field in the United Kingdom passed the book on to his book, to his boss who passed it on to his boss who passed it on.

To his boss and she was a revered queen. So I will just phrase it that way. And

Gissele: hmm,

Jan: there were outreaches to me and linked in to verify my authenticity. So I guess what I’m saying, and, and importantly, this is what I would like the takeaway to be, or one of the takeaways to be Giselle is. How are we to know when we’re tackling some experience, what the outcome is going to be, or its significance for someone else.

So, if we keep feeding our intelligences, our treasured intelligences, we’re going to create we’re going to be drawn to adventures that are going to yield outcomes that That can help someone else. Versus a life of simply feeding our own ego. It’s very easy to do that today. There’s so many ways. It’s a distinctly different path.

And it’s always our choice. And I’m not saying that we can’t do that. I love movies. Yes, I use my phone. I’m on Facebook. I love LinkedIn and I’m not so good on Twitter. I haven’t figured that out yet. Not enough time to do that. I’m just a regular person about all of this. It’s just that what I have found is that tapping into our knowing in creating these adventures once you start it.

You want to return there, it’s, it’s a better situation. It’s a much more rewarding outcome than simply taking care of our basic ego needs. So we’re all on this journey. I wish the best for you, for your listeners, for every living being on this earth. And we have the choice of how we can do it because this is how we were wired to be.

We don’t have to remain broken. We can work on healing by focusing on the three circles and getting ourselves into our sense of knowing and we’ll be quite surprised at the change in our life.

Gissele: Fully agree. One thing I was thinking about was that. This journey you’re talking about. And the journey you went through with Oscar. And all of the other journeys you continued to go on. Take a level of faith. A level of faith and trust. And I think if you’re. Willing to do that. You’re willing to show up for whatever showed up. And there’s a level of courage to that as well. What is one thing that people can do to help them kind of embark on that journey? Of really stepping up into their knowing.

Yes, I fully understand.

Jan: What I can tell you is that such a moment when people are overcome with fear may be a time of profound experiencing profound rejection or profound worries about financial loss or something. I would not be talking about this had I not walked those through those moments where I have experienced.

profound rejection. And what fueled me, first of all, you know, we have to, when, when we suffer at the hands of an event or what someone’s choice or what, what has happened or, or something not working out, just putting it that way. We, we work to come to grips with it and to take ownership of what.

Our role is in that, and understanding the facts and the details that came together to make that happen. But, once we get to that point, For me, what fueled me like that was I just said to myself, and I wrote these things down, I wrote down these phrases and put them on the bathroom mirror, and I put them in my drawers when I’d be pulling out my sweatshirt or, or, or my jeans or something, and I would come across it and these things, and I put them all over the place where I would see them, but one that works to this day.

Constantly is never, ever let anyone or anything write the ending to your story. Life is hard. Life is brutal. This is a, this is a, this is a, a, a living experience today of such fear. Competitiveness. We have such a fight between light and darkness. And for those of us who work to expose wrongdoing, whether it’s profound Corruption, profound patterns of money laundering through the most respectable places and so on and so forth, or exposing sexual abuse and taking and having people see the entity that was supposed to be protecting children.

So, okay. And then knowing the years of healing that every one of the people who have suffered. So they are so. Deserving and entitled to be brought into that capsule of warmest love. And I, I, I tell you this, the world is not doing enough for the victims of the sexual abuse. But, but my, my point is that. We, we have so much that we can, we can do by just immediately stepping out of just going after power or becoming number one by focusing on, okay, mental intelligence, emotional intelligence, spiritual intelligence, focusing there.

Getting into the knowing, getting to the source of the help and the healing for me. Never, ever let anyone write the ending to your story. Another phrase that activated me like that was, if it is to be, it is up to me. And I put together a whole list of things that I would come across and I would see. For example, since I’m.

An authentic person here being interviewed. I will say to guess what I said when I was coming down to my office today. Here is here is a statement for today. What came to me and I think you’re just a wonderful hostess and I can be so real and share these things with you. But I said, I was coming down. I can do this.

I can do this well. And that put me, it centered me. Okay. And that was not putting me into fueling my ego. It was centering me. I was reading myself. I was in my EQ zone. I was Centering myself, saying, now, I am, I’m in a place now where I can work out of all three circles, and those are some of the ways that I hope will be able to help other people as they step forward on their, on their healing, because we are always changing lives.

Thank you. on our way to wholeness. We’re always moving there. No matter what has happened, no matter what we’ve been through, someone, some entity can surround you and draw you into a capsule of the [00:55:00] warmest love and you can heal. And that is my sincere promise.

Gissele: Beautiful. Thank you so much for that. It made me think it’s, it’s interesting because in all my interviews are usually set an intention as well. Um, that I might ask the right questions. And I may, I honor the person that is showing up. Um, and then, you know, may I usually get led to probably the best questions I can ask. Hopefully that gets me a good interviews. We’re wrapping it up. I wanted to ask a couple of more questions. The first one is, what is your definition of unconditional love?

Jan: It, it would be

Jan: an energy, an effervescent, electrifying, always, never on empty love.

Always,

always being fueled, never on empty.

Gissele:

Well, that’s beautiful. My last question is where can people work with you? Where can they find you? Where can they find the new book or the old book as well? It’s really, really great. Tell people about yourself.

Jan: Oh, you’re so nice. I have a website, http://www.JanSchwartz.us, and it is a website that pulls together my writing, my speaking, and my work as a forensic behavioral scientist. And there are links to last summer with Oscar. The book, Authentic Intelligence, we are, I’m in the process of completing.

My book proposal, there is a whole journey that an author goes through, as you know, and I’m at the final point of building my author’s platform. And I’m so excited to share with you that there are 108 requests for a pre publication copy of the book, Media authors, pod show hosts business owners large, small people from all over the world, Australia, New Zealand United Kingdom, Canada Toronto Montreal, so and so forth, and in America, all different groups a 12 step group a group that focuses on revenue production.

I, I, I’m amazed that there are so many there’s so many groups. And at the end of one discussion, the the person leading the organization said to me, well, Jan Schwartz, love to you from all directions.

Gissele: That’s beautiful.

Jan: So janschwartz.Us and perhaps this year we will be able to have a publication of the book.

I’m looking forward to being paired with the right book agent and the right publisher that will want to invest in global distribution so that we can reach every person, every family. Every county, every state, every nation. So we can, there is an urgency for this. We have so many great problems that we can work on together and the joy will be ours to do so.

Gissele: Sounds fantastic. And what a perfect way to end. Thank you so much, Jan, for being on the podcast and for sharing your wisdom with us in your lovely discussion about your journey with Oscar. And thank you everyone to tune in for another episode of the Love and Compassion podcast with Gissele. See you soon.

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Transcript

[00:00:00]

Jessica Campbell: Hello and welcome to the love and compassion with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content today. I have my most beloved sister, Jessica Campbell, talking about weight loss and compassion.

Gissele Taraba: Jessica Campbell started her journey when she was 45 weighing 270 pounds. She’s lost over a hundred pounds and decided to create a YouTube channel, where she could engage in dialogue about weight loss. Weight related disease education and how to achieve weight loss in an affordable way that honors a person’s way of living.

And I would also say compassionately too. And this was really about her journey and figuring out how to live a balanced life. So today we’re going to be talking about weight loss, compassion, maybe Bridgerton and relationships. Please join me in welcoming Jessica Campbell. Hi [00:01:00] Jessica.

Jessica Campbell: Hello Giselle. Thank you so much for having me.

I really appreciate this.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, no worries. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I mean, we’ve been talking a little bit about working together. And I knew that you were the person that I wanted to have a conversation, especially about weight loss and compassion, having gone through your own weight loss journey.

And also, you know, some of my listeners might not know. That you are one of the first people that really taught me about compassion. We were both very young and you would talk to me about how to look at people beyond the good or bad. And how to look at my relationships with, you know, our parents and other people in a very, very kind way.

And so I am forever grateful and thought you would be the perfect. Person for this conversation. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about how your weight loss journey kind of began? You know, like the path to get there? And then maybe some of the most important things you’ve learned from that journey.

Jessica Campbell: Absolutely. So the first thing [00:02:00] was that I was going through a lot of existential maybe questions at the time where I had already had the kids. I was trying to find a place in terms of What, what I could do after because my whole world where my kids my husband at the time but I didn’t feel that I had purpose, but there was an addendum to that.

The addendum was that every day I would get up. I would feel weighted back. In weighted by the weight, weighted by the fact that I couldn’t breathe. And the fact that the, the weight was weighing so heavily upon me that I couldn’t even I couldn’t work. I became, less and less active and engaged in my life.

Now, the precipice to that is the fact that you go into your doctor’s appointment and your doctor says, well, you’re [00:03:00] pre-diabetic, you also have high blood pressure. Mm-Hmm, . And and they weigh you obviously. And that’s, you know that the observable weight was 270 pounds. Now that I did not act.

Right away, so I think I was actually a little bit heavier, but I mean, it’s neither here nor there the weight is wasn’t what was the issue was the fact that all my,health was going. Going on a downhill spiral, so I decided to take care of my health and this is actually pre. My separation, my divorce, It was, I think that the, the problem with any journey is that, you know, everyone has to, there’s the old you, or there’s the you that’s existing at that time and the, and the vision you [00:04:00] are not necessarily aligned at that time. They’re just 2 different ideas. And because there are two different ideas that you have to buy into it and then other people have to buy into it.

So that is very complicated because that is such a complicated feature. If you are not completely sold on it, you’re still figuring out how do you imagine your family being able to buy into it. So that long division was basically the inherent problem that took over my whole life.

Because. If I’m going to add to it, in order for me to be able to find correlate the old me and the vision, everything, every aspect in my life had to fail. And it wasn’t because it had to it because it did. It got to the point where I was failing at everything that I said, this bottom. [00:05:00] It’s going to forever and continue.

Gissele Taraba: How do I decide to surrender to it and say, It doesn’t matter which bottom I go because the bottoms continue. How do I find myself out of it without hurting myself any further? Yeah, sorry, I just wanted to point out you just said something very, very powerful, which is, you know, and I think this is why so many weight loss programs fail because they’re focusing at the reason of behavior.

I’m just going to eat less calories what you’re talking about, which is kind of a bang to start the conversation. Really is about shifting identity. It’s you have to see yourself and act in a different way. And that, like you said, can cause a real ripple in your relationships because they see the old you, they’re comfortable with the old you and what you, what you said, what you needed to do is to destroy that old identity and not in a harsh, harmful way, but in a [00:06:00] way that you needed to see yourself in a different way as a person who was.

Quote unquote, thinner or thin. Right. Sorry. Continue.

Jessica Campbell: Yeah. And it’s not even the thin part, it’s the part where you are able to do things.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, yes. Thank you for that clarification,

Jessica Campbell: because I, I do want to clarify that.

because I have been overweight since I was a child, there’s a huge difference between being overweight when you’re young. And that’s all, you know, because there’s inherent problematic things here. Then when you’re older in your 40s and 50s, you start gaining weight and now both. situations, you do have to manage them with your lifestyle because absolutely it, that is all about it.

how do we honor our lives and the way we want to live and start seeing visible things like weight loss. [00:07:00] We can talk about that a little aspect, maybe later on the conversation, but what I’m trying to say here is the fact that specifically me, I had to find a new adult identity when there was no adult identity to be related, I had to imagine somewhere else.

And this is where I would say, how would energetic. Woman of 50 or, or a 45 look like, what would she look like? What would she do? How would she behave in a meeting And those are so, so many intangibles.

I would have little things like, for example, you know, the actress Selma Hayek and, JLo and, how do they become the women that they become? Not necessarily even just specifically to them, but how do they get up in the morning? How do they, how do they deal with their lives?

And specifically I wanted to live no longer [00:08:00] angry and with grace. So every morning I would get up and despite what was going on in the world at that time. A lot of things were, very

painful to live and but I would get up and I would say, how do I live with grace? and forgiveness. And how do I live with compassion? Because as insignificant as, I thought my person was, I always woke up. You’re absolutely beautiful.

I would get up and I said, no, but even if nobody believes it, you’re absolutely beautiful. You’re a gentle, female, graceful being. And then I started to morph into that. It’s not about image. It’s about impersonating[00:09:00]

a beautiful side of the human race.

Gissele Taraba: I think it’s about becoming more of yourself.

Jessica Campbell: Yeah. Becoming

Gissele Taraba: more authentically you.

Jessica Campbell: That’s a secondary. But what I was trying to say is that when I was 250, 240, that’s all I would focus. I would focus and I would say, everything is failing in my life.

How do I bring grace into the day? How do I bring compassion into the day? How do I look beyond me? Yeah. Because I mean, I’m not dealing as a nurse. I’m not dealing with with my cause. I’m being present because my life is like I’m, it’s raining cats and dogs. I cannot just look at the cats and the dogs.

you know what I mean.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah, it’s what you’re talking about is embodiment, embodying the identity that you want. And I remember early in your, not [00:10:00] so early, but in your weight loss journey in terms of, you know, on your journey to losing a hundred pounds is you, I remember you telling me I’m an athlete.

And then you would actually wear outfits and you would tell me, like, people would randomly come up and you’re like, Hey, are you an athlete? Like, they would ask you that. And I found it so incredible. And it was so inspiring. You mentioned, like your weight loss journey as a child and you know, you and I are sisters.

So I’ve sort of seen your journey throughout. And one of the things I observed was just how, how much like our parents in that sort of, like how that that navigated the conversation of childhood weight in, in the kind of the traumatizing impact that sometimes the comments that parents make to their children about their weight.

Rather than focusing on healthy eating what have you learned about your [00:11:00] journey that you wish maybe parents would know about like engaging in conversations with kids around weight?

Jessica Campbell: I fall back to the health in every size,

just because at the time when I was a kid, I was also fairly active. I used to dance and play outside and, and, you know, I was taller than most people. I am,

Gissele Taraba: you were told for South American, Jesus, you’re still tall. Yeah.

Jessica Campbell: Yeah. Five, nine. But you know, by an average woman in. In Peru, it would be 5 and maybe under.

So I was quite tall. But most importantly, I think that there is something to be said about

focusing on solutions instead of labels. Because

Gissele Taraba: when I

Jessica Campbell: was 10, I was 11, I was 12, I [00:12:00] was 13 you know, every doctor’s appointment, my weight was a problem. You know, my stretch marks were a problem. My, you know, my shape was a problem. And there was never, aside from you really need to look at your weight, there was never anything else.

And, and if I’m going to shift hats here, I’m going to say health care is not very good at giving you tools aside from, you know, less carbs, more, protein and, and your keto is keto esque type of sheet, very impersonal.there’s noSitting there with the patient and actually let’s talk about this.

Now, having said that, I don’t think I, I should go into in depth of what our health care problems are, but I just want to align that the fact that children [00:13:00] is specifically and maybe this has changed, but certainly in the 70s it was more focused on. You need to lose weight. You’re not, you know, you are late, you’re labeled obese and this is your problem.

And at 13 years old, how can this possibly be your problem alone? You’re, you’re a child. So that’s why in my humble opinion, when it comes to children, I think there has to be a lot of tact and a lot of compassion when it comes to size. And in the end of the day. It isn’t about the weight. It’s about a person feeling okay with the body that they inhabit.

Gissele Taraba: Since you mentioned the healthcare, I I’m going to go there. Because healthcare solution to weight loss is Ozempic and I remember fen fen and I [00:14:00] remember all the other weight loss things that they just push on you and now it’s Ozempic and now people are getting like Ozempic face. I don’t know. So really the solution.

My friend,

Jessica Campbell: I just. Give me a second. So one of the things I do want to add and maybe engage in for this conversation is that I did take fen phen when I was maybe in my early 18, 19, 20s maybe. It wasn’t fun for me. I remember I’m going from, like, taking and going from Ryerson to Union Station in, like, 5 minutes or less.

I ran the whole time because my heart. My heart had increased the palpitations agreed so much that I felt like I was so anxious. And so I had to get off it because it cost me anxiety, anxiety and and not depression. It was completely my heart would go from [00:15:00] a regular 70 to 100 and something, and I had to catch up with it.

And that’s how it felt.

Gissele Taraba: I remember one of the things I noticed as your sister and having known you all my life was that you actually became a little bit paranoid.

Jessica Campbell: Yes, I was.

Gissele Taraba: You, you thought that I hated you and that I didn’t want you to be successful or all these other things. And I’m like, this is.

Jessica Campbell: I agree, I agree.

I had to get off it. So, but, but let’s go back to Ozempic and let’s go back to the reasoning behind why. Obesity is now considered a chronic disease. First, that is very important to actually acknowledge that this is a very important move to have it. Because it is a chronic disease, I will, I don’t know.

I am trying my best to, to learn how to listen to my body in terms of satiation. So we have to, because it’s a process [00:16:00] that, that the obesity has to be treated as a process that will, that might never go away. So, it does qualify as chronic disease. the reasoning behind why Osempec is so now successful is the fact that it, it gets rid of the food noise that is your feelings around food.

It, it gives you more of a perspective of yes, you are full and therefore do, you really need to eat more, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, now, the proviso here is that I don’t know enough, enough about ozempic. Yeah. But it is, it is a very helpful medication when you really try to get.

Into that sphere of getting rid of the food noise. Now, the reason [00:17:00] why some people should not take it versus some people should take it because we do. I believe that is given to people that are severely obese. And I, I endorse that up because you got to get, you got to start somewhere. And, and, and I’ve been in that sphere where you don’t know where to begin.

there’s no way to know you, you have to start somewhere and Ozempic is an excellent way to begin where the problem lies is the fact that the weight loss is not this. Indiscriminately, you lose weight. You just lose weight. And it is particularly dangerous in our subset, 50 year old women that we’re in danger of osteoporosis of continual muscle loss and things like that because of, the fact that we’re growing older, that’s the thing that we lose.

Gissele Taraba: Now, weightlifting and exercise, those are how we preserve [00:18:00] what we have. And if we are going to use ozempic, we need to have the lifestyle to support that weight loss. Yeah. And so, and I think that’s what goes to what you were talking about in terms of identity.

Right, the shifting of behaviors and understanding why you have those behaviors to begin with. I think my concern around ozempic is really is that here’s a pill. make it go away, but you’re not addressing the issue. I think one of the things that I’ve noticed, and I’ve spoken to a number of people on this, but this may not fit for everyone.

And so I don’t want to make a blanket statement is some of the people that have shared with me information about their weight loss journeys. What they had said was really, as they started to shed the weight, Emotional stuff started to come up. And so they noticed that the weight was sort of like a protection, if you may, like, like a bubble, like a bubble wrap.

And it’s very similar to what people do in hoarding. [00:19:00] Hoarding is also a bubble wrap, except it’s a physical bubble wrap. And so for those people that are Using weight as a protection, then something like Ozempic is not really going to help them address those, the emotions that come up with, with, as you release.

Or maybe I’m wrong. I don’t know. What are your thoughts?

Jessica Campbell: So I am going to have to agree in that, in that sphere. And, and if I may, like all my journeys since I was small have always been. about application of a diet into my life and how do I put it in when that was never ever ever how how sorry let me backtrack by saying the last time I started my weight loss which I was successful that’s not how I approached it how I the first 20 off pounds was [00:20:00] just through therapy was just having someone to talk to and to actually engage them in conversation about how I deal with the world.

So I would say the first 20, 30 pounds, it was really nothing about, changing my life, but changing my mind.

Gissele Taraba: I think that’s very important. So

Jessica Campbell: where Ozempic comes in is that it’s, again, one of the a tool. Mm-Hmm. That’s sometimes is not used appropriately.

we all hope we all hope that the tool will be useful.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, and I thank you for that reminder because it doesn’t have to be this or that it could be this and that and I think that it’s important to use it as one of like, you know, as part of your toolkit.

I want to go back to you know, something you had said earlier, which is talking about, you know, like, Healthy weight and loving your body and listening to your body. [00:21:00] And I, I don’t know if you’ve heard this. There’s been lots of things on TikTok about Bridgerton. The actress, Nicola. I don’t watch Bridgerton.

But I know people that do. Oh, yes. So, so there’s this gorgeous, beautiful actress. And you know, she would be what people consider on the plus size and she is very popular and has this starring role and people are ruthless. And there was an article in the spectacular or whatever that article was.

And they were just so harshwhy are people so harsh about weight? I have a theory, but I’m interested in what your thoughts on are in terms of like, It’s just like what gives people the right she’s doing her job. She’s doing her best.

She’s doing fantastic because she’s got a leading role in this Bridgerton. So, and she’s gorgeous. So like, what’s the beef? I don’t get it.

Jessica Campbell: So in my theory would be that it’s not about Nicola at all. It’s about [00:22:00] us as a society. and I do want to bring back a little bit of a humble pie here in terms of me.

I used to be able to, you know, things like that would trigger me to why? Because if they’re mirrors, they’re mirrors of what we are and what imperfections we find in ourselves, we, we tend to be very critical of. So. So, yes, so you don’t want to see a heavy set woman get a completely handsome, rich guy. It’s a fallacy, right?

You know, the first perception you get is, well, that’s ridiculous. people attract similar attractive people, which is completely. And absolutely ridiculous to say and to believe, but yet we believe it as a society. And and why? Because we do see [00:23:00] our imperfections acutely.

We just hope that the rest of us don’t see it as, as much and we like to pretend that it does. But interestingly enough, other people have more insight into ourselves than some of us do. So therefore I would. I have to say it’s never about the actress. It’s about us and how we handle things that do not make sense in our brain.

Gissele Taraba: I completely agree with you. It’s a rejection of ourselves because it’s like, no, it has to be the perfect girl with the perfect nose, with the perfect outfit, with the perfect body that gets the perfect guy. It’s because we reject ourselves.

Jessica Campbell: I have to tell you, I have to tell you as a person that has been dating, looks will only get you.

Maybe four or five dates

Gissele Taraba: At the end of the day, connection has to be two like minds you know, understanding that there’s compatibility.

Jessica Campbell: Ability and [00:24:00] understanding, and the other,person has to match you in interest.Going back to weight loss and how we deal with each other is the fact that we really undervalue connection,

Gissele Taraba: which is why we’re in the state we’re in as a society. And I think that’s the issue too, is that we are so worried about our physicality.

We don’t have healthy examples of aging.

Jessica Campbell: Yes. But can I, can I? Absolutely. But I do have to tell you one thing about about, about that is that physicality, our calling card, you can say what you will and I agree with you Yeah. Is that it’s a lot of misguided interpretations on how a person should look at every age.

Gissele Taraba: Mm.

Jessica Campbell: But we need to. We need to come to an understanding that our presentation is our calling card, [00:25:00] evil or not evil.

So understanding that that is our calling card is very, very important. Not to say that we must. Aligned to it, but we must be understanding of it because it because it’s because it’s not because you want to look a certain way is because you want to understand that it’s because everyone will bring. Hate into whatever someone can say, you could be saying something very important and someone would say, Oh, you have crooked, crooked, like I wouldn’t be talking So, because you know that that’s your calling card, and that that’s what they’re seeing you could say, Thank you very much for your thoughts. And concerns my teeth are are what I like about me. Too bad. So sad. I’ll see you. I’ll [00:26:00] see you. But, but, you know, did you hear the message? No, now you can feel that and not answer, but being in that frame of mind that you understand that your image is your calling card, regardless of how you feel about it.

It’s the beginnings of an understanding that you will receive hate, you will be at the bottom of the barrel, and you will still be okay.

Gissele Taraba: And I think that goes to what you were saying about life being a mirror, right? Like, You know, I think there are times when I feel most insecure about things that that life that mirrors back that I would get comments, right.

But to be honest, I’ve never gotten comments, but I’ve gotten comments about my nose because I was very insecure about my nose. And so people would call it the witch nose and all of that stuff. But as soon as I started actually really loving my nose and saying, you know what, my nose is unique. My teeth are unique.

That’s just what it is. I don’t get those comments anymore. And even if I did, I would laugh my ass off because [00:27:00] it’s hilarious. But, but it really doesn’t. And so it has no power over me. I don’t need to give it power. I don’t need to feed that. And so it does give us an opportunity, like you say, to really step up into our own power, but it is interesting how much.

We, how we have a specific perspective on, like you said earlier, how people, these particular people should follow these particular people, because the truth of the matter is, when you look at human beings, we come in all different shapes and sizes and colors. And it’s like a beautiful garden, right? It’s like, imagine if the gardens were just always roses and they’re all look the same, that would be so boring, but there’s so much diversity.

And instead of celebrating that we’re trying to make everything the same and assimilate and people have the same noses and people have the same looks. And so. And to me, that’s the weight thing has to do with that as well. One of the people I follow regardless of what people think about celebrity, I’m not a big [00:28:00] celebrity follower, but I do like Lizzo and I think she’s gorgeous and I love that she is providing Outfits that are like different size.

Cause that was always an issue in terms of like, and the clothing is beautiful. And so, yeah, you are providing for a market, you know, just because you’re a plus size person doesn’t mean you have to wear a mumu and so to be able to see beauty and all these different sizes and also people that are very small and, and like, very, very thin

And so being able to to express your own creativity and beauty and honor it in different ways without having to sort of fit into a mold, I think, is really important.

Jessica Campbell: Oh, I quite agree. NowThere’s two, things that I think about when I think about the subject, she is also going through a weight loss journey is that a lot of people underestimate the transition you and the transition you, it’s actually a lot more than the present you.

Because [00:29:00] we all transition. I do want to voice something about. the BMI, which is the basal mass index. I think that’s what it is. It’s, it’s a unit that it’s been vilified a lot. Why? Because it’s not discriminative between bone muscle or fat.

The reason why I bring this up is because of this.

It’s a useful tool, another tool to assess

the risk of, of chronic disease. While you said You know everybody, no matter what their body is beautiful, what I hope to accomplish with my YouTube channel is to bring insight into saying, while we are, we, we have that our bodies are so wonderful that it can absorb an amount of [00:30:00] Of weight. The problem is, is that we don’t know what five pounds will set you to towards chronic disease.

So, for example, if we have a beautiful 20 year old girl that has 2030 pounds, and she’s still active living her best life and her and her blood work is pristine. We don’t have to worry about her. Really? I mean, you know, there might be a. Point in her 50s when we might have to if she if she continues to gain, but what we what we are looking there is how do we keep it in in the align to where we are keeping chronic disease at bay, which is what I’m a huge advocate about

In the end game in my YouTube channel is to make people understand that these chronic diseases are fixable, they’re reversible, but it takes [00:31:00] you to do it to help us. Care health care providers in order for us to be able to move as a society towards better health, because our health care inherently is not going very, very well.

The latest paper that came out out of the Ford government you know, it’s that we’re going to be losing a lot of nurses PSW. So, in order for us to contribute individually is that we need to observe our own health. We need to self care.

Gissele Taraba: And I, and I think that’s so important because I think something from my perspective about health care is the lack of holistic perspectives, right?

Like, other than physicality and symptom management, the whole being. Including spiritual, including like all of the other parts is not just kind of serially and separately.

Jessica Campbell: Yeah, absolutely. And I have to add that, you know I think that [00:32:00] the observable. It’s always very easy to capture and monetize.

What is not, what is not so easy is the subjective. How do we capture mental health? If it’s not quantifiable. If we’re not, if we cannot put it in paper, we’re not going to fund it.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, that’s why it’s up to us to take care of our own health.

Yeah. I wanted to go back to the issue of BMI because I think one of the things that I have observed with this younger generation and through TikTok and all of those is the, The focus on weight you have very thin people really like, like people that are putting potentially themselves at risk, having food restrictions, eating disorders.

And so the prevalence of that among young people as a way to maybe some could have control over their lives, maybe address whatever issues. Or whatever might be happening for them. I think [00:33:00] there is that definite worry about things such as BMI on young people and whether or not that’s an appropriate measure for them as they grow and mature and need calories to menstruate, especially for women, What are your thoughts on that?

Jessica Campbell: Yes, I actually agree in terms of how it should be approached with young people. I don’t feel that I should, for example, say to my boys well, your BMI is this. What I would say is as a healthcare provider, I would, I would have it as a useful tool because in the hierarchy, I have more education about the matter.

I’m not, not that I’m more intelligent. I’m 50. I’m also a nurse. This child is a child. They should observe. serve things that they understand in the world that they’re with. Being a little delulu in every aspect of our lives is always good as well. So what I’m trying to say is that while as a healthcare provider, [00:34:00] I would observe that and I would suggest diets and tools to ensure that I am observing some quantitative movement towards weight loss.

I wouldn’t share the BMI with younger people. Why? Because it’s not you. Useful, you will, you will need to have extra education. You will need to know where the flaws are.

one of the things that I’ve learned from my weight loss is that when you, first of all, I have an ED, it’s binge, it’s, it’s binging restricting. That was, that was me. And, and that I found out when I was on my journey with, with therapy. And hence why I lost the original 2030 pounds without applying anything of any, any changes in my life.

Why? So dealing with therapy, what I was doing with food,

and [00:35:00] how I engaged into weight loss fully. Or rather in in increments, because for me, it wasn’t a one situation. It was let’s deal with this. Let’s have these handicaps. Let’s deal with this. Let’s have this handicaps, meaning that I would have 1 day where I would eat whatever I enjoyed.

That has become less and less and less dependent on it. Because while I still have my diagnosis. Or what my problems are. Those don’t necessarily go away sometimes I deal with that, but they become less and less, I would, you know, what, once I used to have it every 2 days, 5 years later, I have it every 6 months, maybe once a year.

Does that make sense? Yeah. So, one of the things that I do want to point out is. I did not want to buy another eating disorder and that was my non [00:36:00] negotiable my non negotiable with this weight loss and why it’s taken me five years to lose 100 pounds is because I, I had two provisos. The proviso one was, I did not, I, if I’m going to do this, I am going to not buy another ed.

I am going to be okay going to a restaurant, engaging in conversation and not worry about what I’m eating. And then not fret for the next five days. And I’m not going to restrict or do anything that will cause me harm. If I’m healing I’m healing. warts and all. The second proviso was, I was going to completely be open eyed about what was going on in my life.

And that actually began with me [00:37:00] sitting for three days. And honestly recording everything I was having to eat again, warts and all. Because I gave me insight into how much nutrition I actually intake. And I think that it’s important to note because a lot of. People start with the calculator online.

They say there’s 2000 calories you need to. I, in my humble opinion, that’s not where you should be starting. You should be starting on how much your body takes realistically and reduced gently from that observation. Because what that will do is will give you insight into how much intake you really do, and it doesn’t restrict you as much as you think you do.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, and I think those strategies make it more doable as you change your identity, right? And, you know, throughout this conversation, you’ve been saying some key things. And in particular talking about observing and being very [00:38:00] curious. And for me, that’s really kind of the beginning or the essence of compassion.

How has compassion helped you in your weight loss journey?

Jessica Campbell: Compassion has had a lot to do with it. Self compassion is more important than anything else. I began to say, to say to myself, I forgive you. not only that, not looking at things in a victim hood way, meaning that I would be gone to look at people as the limited humans that they are, and that they’re doing the best they can.

And the default, whether it was true or not, is that because they’re doing the best they can, they’re not doing it maliciously. Because when I began my mornings saying you are absolutely beautiful. People don’t have as much [00:39:00] malice as you think they do. They’re not doing this to hurt you. They’re doing it for their own, their own situation, which you’re not privy and it’s none of your business.

I would date a guy. He, if, if he was cheating, not cheating, seeing other girls, I wasn’t concerned. Why? That’s their journey. Not mine. Do I like them? Not really. Well, not second date. it’s not a long division. I started compassion to myself, compassion to others, treating them, giving them the benefit of the doubt in terms of, I’m not going to try to control what I have no Control over not insight into it.

I have no insight into aside from what they tell me, or what other people tell you, or how they behave. You have no other insight into the intricacy. So, it’s a whole new world. I have My own [00:40:00] problems to deal with, right? So having compassion towards myself was mostly a non negotiable having compassion to others was the second thing in terms of accepting them as they were bringing their stuff to the table.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, yeah, and what you said is so powerful.

Jessica Campbell: was going to say that you know, you mentioned sort of radical honesty and I think for me compassion helped me do that and really take a look at my life and really understand where I needed to change.

Gissele Taraba: And that actually helped me realize I did have a eating disorder, except mine was to control food. Like, I just, I would eat very little just because when I was at the time, it was the only thing that I could control. And so Going back and realizing and say, Yeah, but we’re from a place of non judgment, right?

And going, Oh, yeah, that was that. Oh, that’s weird. No, I guess I was doing the best I could in that moment. and you start to really become radically honest with [00:41:00] yourself and really take a look at that. bag of stuff. I had actually put on TikTok. I was doing when I, when I, in this process of becoming really radically honest with myself, I started to, whenever I had pain in my body, really just sitting with it and saying, I’m here for you.

I’m not afraid. like diving deep in it and then things would come out like vocalizations or like silent screaming like it’s weird but afterwards you feel like you’ve released that pent up energy and so but that only came from really being honest with myself about where I was and I think that’s where compassion plays a really really big role.

Jessica Campbell: Yes and I would actually add that That that’s where exercise comes in and meditation and self reflection what I started to say to do in terms of exercise, it was just exercise. But then as I continued my journey, it was [00:42:00] more of a negotiation of how to approach a painful situation and how to live through it.

You know, when youLifting weights when you are actually running and you meet that threshold of I can no longer do anything. I cannot continue. And then you move past that and say, you actually do, you can continue. It’s actually a small example of how you can deal with stress.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah,

Jessica Campbell: and even when, for example, my arm right now is it’s it’s hurt and I get up every morning and I, I don’t do much.

I just observed that that I’m supposed to be working out and I move gently and try to increase my range of motion because I am now going back to 3 years ago when I couldn’t move this arm. But that’s okay. Because you go through this, phases of going backwards, coming back, [00:43:00] going backwards, coming back, and you have to be there has to be surrender to the fact that that will continue.

And I think that as humans, we are so used to the comfortable. We’re so used to the, the, the. Observing you know, how do I deal with in crisis? 1 of the things that I will always remember is that I heard someone says. said to me you’re doing the best you can with, you know, you’re doing the best you can in crisis and whatnot.

And you’re dealing with it. The fact that you’re over drinking, that’s okay because you’re going through a lot. One of the things that I had to do in order to, when I was doing through therapy, I had to get rid of that mantra.

I had to get rid of that mantra and say, and say to myself, I am thriving. Despite what is happening, I am [00:44:00] going to engage in meditation, even though my master’s is going up burning in hell in a shit show doing right. You know, work is not so good. My marriage is falling and things like that.

I had to say. Okay. I need to, I need to be okay. I need to show up. How do you turn is you don’t turn things around by just dealing and managing with food and with drinking and with numbing yourself. You manage showing yourself up because when I was at work and I wasn’t doing so well and my boss helped me through it.

I have to tell you my company is absolutely amazing in terms of that compassionate piece is that, you know, it’s, It’s because they showed up for me, I show up for it. And so I’m here. How do I turn things around. You have to look at it. You have to look at the ugly you cannot push away the [00:45:00] ugly, and then say to yourself, I am going to survive and actually thrive through this.

Now, interestingly enough. I think that is a very important to note. That’s how I observed my labs and my numbers is that I had all these numbers, you know, my blood pressure, my pulse, my I was pre diabetic, cholesterol was extremely high, all these numbers that I had in my blood work.

I had, I said to my doctor, and it wasn’t my doctor. He’s like, well, let’s do this in six months. I was like, no, well, I’ll be here three months. How do we fix this situation? And approaching each and every month, every number, like it was a situation. So not, not being blind by it. But facing it to, to. Facing it in front and say here.

Hello elephant. You and I are going to [00:46:00] have to be very well acquainted because you’re going away

Gissele Taraba: and I think that’s where the the importance of making and you mentioned this before making your vision a non negotiable. And as well in, in holding onto your vision and being, like you said, a little delulu, right, which is kind of this tick tock trend of like, okay, I, and it’s not about ignoring your circumstances.

People think that it’s, Oh, you’re being in denial. If you’re trying to manifest health or trying to manifest abundance or trying to manifest, no, no, it’s actually facing it and realizing it has no power over you that you choose your health. You choose your abundance. You choose to succeed. You choose. As a non negotiable, and you’re willing to look at your life and say, okay, I’m going to take ownership of this.

Yes. These are my numbers. Just because this is this in this moment doesn’t mean it’s going to be in the next moment or tomorrow or whatever. And I think that’s what you’re talking about is being able to sit with that and say, okay, I’m not losing vision. My vision is non [00:47:00] negotiable. But how do I work with what I’m where I am right now?

So meeting yourself where you’re at. And I think that’s the ultimate essence of compassion, is it not? Yeah.

Jessica Campbell: I agree, I agree, because you can absorb health despite diagnosis,

what it can do, it can just give you perspective into the things that you can, you can change you like your diet, you can start gently exercise, you can observe a different life to preserve your function, because function and diagnosis are 2 different animals, which we actually always.

Equal them

Gissele Taraba: on found. Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica Campbell: And then all of a sudden we’re, we’re, you know, terrible. We, we really we need to, we need to, we’re all we’re living with is to elongate life when we really should be focus is how do we best, how do we live our best, best life, despite our diagnosis.

Gissele Taraba: one of the things I noticed is that you mentioned movement several times. And I just want to point out how important that is.

I take qigong. [00:48:00] And one of the things my qigong teacher says is like movement enables you to flow the qi and that’s what creates longevity. But I’ve been really reflecting on the school system because, as you know, I’m writing my second book and and I realized just how much we teach children to sit down to stay stagnant and they have like little pockets of times when they go out and play, but sit down and then we expect adults to be.

moving around. But when you look at very young children, they’re constantly moving. It’s like they got bugs in their bodies, right? But when you look at adults, like they’re constantly just sitting. And so, but we’ve been conditioned to that. We’re not conditioned as young kids to allow our movement.

Jessica Campbell: And so there’s two issues with our obesity crisis and the ownership of the self.

Right. We, Why is it so hard for all of us to observe observe, you know being an owner is, is a, because we have like a lot of convenience [00:49:00] and everything’s triggered towards us moving less and less and less from our jobs to the fact that the grocery store is not, it’s not an achievable way to, to walk and come back.

We always look for convenience. And the more remote the places, like, for example, Cusco, when I was in Cusco, 70, 80 year olds used to climb up. Mountain supply mountains, they have no choice. Right? That’s that’s their life. They don’t have a car. There’s a car. It’s not useful there.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah,

Jessica Campbell: it’s a, you, you got to get out and walk is more convenient because humans are are always, always going to buy convenience and the places like the US and Canada are more driven into being more convenient using cars.

Gissele Taraba: Because geographically, they’re so far away, right? The geography in Canada is like.

Jessica Campbell: Exactly. So how do we, change that mentality or [00:50:00] how do we engage into movement?Anything from health to even the practical of getting up from a chair requires muscles, requires your, your bones being supported, but the assisting muscles.

So from your Or core to your arms. It all require an amount of muscle that we do lose by tendency as we grow older. Therefore, that’s why we have 60, 70 year olds using walkers and things like that. And some actually, some 70 year olds do not need any of that. Why? Because they have more muscle and that’s they made

Gissele Taraba: they made muscle loss.

They’re non negotiable. They’re like, I’m not going to lose muscle.

Jessica Campbell: Well, that is my non negotiable. But having said that. That is the inherent thing that I do stress is that movement and that we shouldn’t be at 50 year old moving the way we are moving. We should be requiring you [00:51:00] know, in this, I say, in the most compassionate way, I think that is important to note that.

A lot of, you know, friends and family say, Oh, you look a lot younger than what you are because of the way I move and things like that. But I have to say that I think. That I want to invite everyone to consider that maybe this is what a 50 year old look should look like, or looks like inherently. And then maybe we should all strive to be able to in our 60s, in our 70s, in our 80s to engage in our life, however, they look like is, is it unreasonable for our in our 70s to go on a bike ride with a loved one to, to, to actually have that idealized retired.

Instead of being hospital to hospital to hospital appointment.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, you know,

Jessica Campbell: how do I, and I think that maybe that’s [00:52:00] an invitation to everyone. How do you help me sell the idea of us, senior people coming into seniors, how do we sell each other into the idea of idealized retirement.

Gissele Taraba: I had a guest on my show and she she was in her sixties when she started, she does something called aerial Zen.

She does pole dancing and she’s a 15 time. She is now in her seventies, 15 time world winner. Pole dancer. She started in her sixties. And so that was the same conversation we had together, which is like, we need to redefine what it means to age like you and I have heard our parents and our uncles and loved ones say, Oh, you know, never get old.

It sucks. It’s bad. You know, like everything hurts. And this is all just incantations. These are things we’re agreeing to. [00:53:00] Like you said, these have to be non negotiable. Perfect health is my non negotiable. Aging well is my non negotiable. Abundance is my non negotiable. So it’s all of those things and you get to dictate regardless of where you are in that moment.

And I think that’s the point you’re trying to make which is like regardless of where you are. I have two more questions. The first one being what is your definition of unconditional love? I’m asking all of my guests.

Jessica Campbell: My definition of unconditional love for me is to be present. With the person that I am interacting with and actually listening, not not for the, not for the point of me answering, but for the point of me.

Engaging and being present for that person and. For me to bring insight in order to collaborate. [00:54:00] And to engage. In interaction that is very, very much a collaboration.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah,

Jessica Campbell: so I don’t have to give people anything. I only have to give them my time and my attention and my presence. And I find that

that is my definition of unconditional loving someone.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, beautifully said, like bearing witness. And you know, like we’ll probably leave this for another episode, but in terms of compassionate nursing, I know that I feel that you’re a very, very compassionate nurse who is able to do that for people

Jessica Campbell: Yeah. So where can people find you? Where, what is your YouTube link? What’s your Tik TOK page? Where do you have a website? Like where can people come and check you out or work with you or whatever? I

do have a Tik TOK. It’s called Jesse with a Y. Jesse I think it’s 1970.

Three, but my tick tock by my tick tock [00:55:00] secondary. I like to do that as as a thing. I think that by the biggest thing that I do do is my YouTube channel, which is JessicaRN I am on Facebook under the same name and Instagram as well. Just to give. People snippets of what the videos that I’m going to be doing that week.

Because if they find it interesting I like to engage in those types of conversations where we can front find a better way to engage in free, very accessible weight loss. Examples, because one of the things that I do, I do see is how expensive. Weight loss. Can be, and I, and I feel that weight loss movement.

Should be accessible for everyone. I think that’s like the nursing me in fact that, you know, you want to have everyone have access to [00:56:00] some sort of health journey or health increase or, or, or, you know, within their own comfortable positions because weight loss is unique.

You will not lose weight the same way I do just just because I do not eat the same. I don’t have the same values and beliefs you do, and I also don’t prize the same foods you do. For example, for me you know Pollo a la Brasa wouldn’t mean nothing to you, but for me, it gives me joy, comfort, so much so that I would make it in order for me to, it’s not just about me eating that.

It’s soothing, it’s reminding

Gissele Taraba: you.

Jessica Campbell: Remembering. Yes, exactly. So, so therefore. Examples of how I eat should not be your way of eating.

Gissele Taraba: You just reminded me of a story you know, [00:57:00] David likes to cook. And I had asked him to make a particular Peruvian dish. I can’t remember what it is. And he likes to make it fusion, you know, adds different things.

And I got, I got a little bit upset and I was like, well, this doesn’t taste exactly like my. Okay. And he’s like, well, but you know what? We’re just making it a little different. That’s okay. And I got really frustrated. And then I didn’t really think with myself and I’m like, okay, what’s really going on?

Just like, first of all, be grateful. Somebody made your dinner. Number two. Like, why are you holding on so tightly to it being done a specific way? And what I really discovered was that, that desire to feel that sense of home, that desire to feel that sense of connectedness to my childhood and to Peru and to the food we used to eat.

And so that it’s that history and that remembering and once I was able to realize that that there, and I realized that there are other ways to connect, not necessarily just through that. Particular food. [00:58:00] I was able to release it. And the next time I made it, I actually made the food that time. I made it a little fusion.

It was so good. Yeah. So thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been definitely an enlightening conversation. I’d love to have you back to talk maybe about compassion and nursing. And thank you for everyone who tuned in to the love and compassion podcast, which is now in 44 countries. Thank you so, so much and please join us for another episode soon.

Have a wonderful day. Bye. All

right.

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Transcript

Gissele: [00:00:00]

Hello and welcome to the love and compassion podcast with Giselle. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world. Don’t forget to like subscribe for more amazing content today. We’ll be talking about how mindfulness can actually positively impact a culture.

I’ll be speaking to Ashley Williams voted top 40 under 40 by styled weekly enrichments, magazines, daring women of 2018. Ashley is a certified yoga specialist. A creator of mindfulness plus movement, RVA implementing therapeutic interventions, programs and professional development training that combines social emotional learning, mindfulness and movement.

She’s also founder of bare soul yoga and wellness in Richmond, Virginia, intentionally created to make yoga and wellness accessible to the black community, but welcomes all communities. Please join me in welcoming [00:01:00] Ashley. Hi, Ashley. Hi

Ashley: Giselle. How are you? I am well. it’s, it’s, So beautiful outside.

I’ve been like bird watching as I like move from one place to the next and like all the different environments So I’m excited to like sit down in this moment and just take in taking this conversation and the house that I’m sitting in.

Gissele: Beautiful, beautiful.

And I think that goes to show like about the embodiment. So you not only teach the stuff you live it, right? Can you tell the audience a little bit about how it is that you got started in this work?

Ashley: Yeah. So my mindfulness journey, or I would dare to say, my, my love for being present in the moment and all the ways that one may maybe lead to it started for me in 2000 and 12, when I.

Really just kind of within a big transition of my life from, you know, collegiate life [00:02:00] to work, professional work life to moving new locations and really experiencing a lot of the transitions and the feelings and the sensations that came with transition. So moving in the ebbs and flows of daily life, moving in and out of feelings of like anxiousness, but then also moving in and out of feelings of connection and disconnection.

And I ended up having. A loss that of one of my aunts that was really dear to me. And on top of all of the sensations that were coming from the transitions that was another transition that really that created a lot of disconnection and a lot of heavy emotion. And so I found myself first at a yoga studio and in a class and moving my body.

And I just remember feeling that. Moment of connection with all of the sensations that I was experiencing. So all of the. The, the pain that I was experiencing, the sorrow, [00:03:00] a lot of the loss and the grief that I was experiencing I had a moment to actually feel it because for a moment I had withdrawn from it.

And that was also not a good feeling. And there was something about being present in the moment with my body. With my mind with the emotions of my heart that kept me coming back and from then it went from, you know, that, that yoga asana, that movement based practice to really diving deep into the study and the science of mindfulness.

And understanding, you know, MBSR, so Mindful Based Stress Reduction, and literally practicing it every day in my world. From the brushing of my teeth to the sipping of my coffee to mindful communication when I was around others. And then from there, honestly, it’s just really snowballed into.

Wanting to know more and getting curious about myself through the practices, wanting to dive deep and study the practices, wanting to then [00:04:00] share the practices and also not just, you know, the formal practices, but then also the benefits of, of being in relationship with these, like with the science, but then with this also way of living in a way that had been benefiting me so much.

Gissele: Yes. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think being present with our difficult emotions is so important for healing, right? But often we don’t do it because it feels so uncomfortable. What helped you get through some of those uncomfortable feelings?

Ashley: Yeah, the practice itself, you know, so the definition that I, when people are like, what’s mindfulness or, you know how do you practice it?

And, you know, the simple definition that I always land on is, you know, it’s simply paying attention to the moment that’s at hand. It’s the paying attention up to the presence and with an attitude of compassion, with an attitude. Of non judgment with an [00:05:00] attitude of acceptance and acknowledgment. And so that active practice of really checking in with myself, like, what’s going on with my body right now?

You know, how. How’s it feeling in this moment? How’s it responding to my environment? What’s happening in my environment, my environment right now? Like who’s, who’s around me? What do I see? You know how does what I see affect me? What do I hear? How is my body responding to that? And you know, there’s those moments of check in to just like pay attention that have really allowed me to move through uncomfortable moments.

Specifically, when you bring in like the non judgment and like the acceptance of them. I always like to say that, you know, stress, which can be synonymous with tension or pressure or disconnection disease, like that’s the gray matter between like what one may think should [00:06:00] be happening versus like reality.

So like what is actually happening. And so I have found that my most uncomfortable. Moments are moments in which my mind has conceived or thought something completely different should be happening than what’s actually happening in reality. that point of awareness for me has been a game changer to how I get through them because then I can ask myself the question, like, okay, what am I trying to change about this moment?

Or like, what part of this moment don’t I want to feel right now? Because I feel like I should feel completely different. And that can even be with like pleasant emotions, you know, like in moments of celebration, it’s like, Oh my gosh, like, It’s sometimes uncomfortable if, you know, a lot of tensions on you and you’re celebrating and you’re like, oh, I just want to go sit in the background, right?

That’s very much uncomfortable. And so being in the practice of acceptance without any judgment has been a game [00:07:00] changer and, and returning back and back to it over and over again. And in the moments when I feel uncomfortable,

Gissele: I love that and I completely resonated with your answer. We call it allowance.

Like can we just allow anything that is experiencing in the moment? And it occurred to me as you were talking that I felt having that presence with yourself, like that having showing up for yourself in a way that honors every aspect of yourself, I think leads to extraordinary things because you’re, you’re being there for yourself.

It’s a, it’s a form of love. It’s a form of being fully present with the being that you are in everything that you’re experiencing. And so I really felt that as you were talking. So I thank you for that.

Ashley: Yeah, of course. One of my values has been like maintain constant love. It’s it’s It’s an ode to my aunt’s life.

And you know, what, what started me on the journey. And so I always have to ask, like, how can I show myself the most love? How can I be constant in love? How can I allow what’s [00:08:00] happening and still be in in a space of love, whether it’s pleasant or unpleasant, and then also extending that to those. Both people and places and people around me.

So love is definitely at the root and at the core of even why I continue to stay in this practice of being present.

Gissele: Yeah. I, I completely agree. You know, I, I remember at one point in my journey, I remember asking myself, can I love everything in everyone? Can I, can I love everything that I’m experiencing?

Can I find love for it? And can I find love in that, that source or that, that God in other people? And sometimes it’s a struggle, but there’s, there’s a willingness and that really is what keeps me moving forward and trying to understand the whole concept of love. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about your involvement with the mindfulness movement in the school system?

Can you talk a little bit about how you got started in some of the, maybe some of the outcomes [00:09:00] you might’ve seen in terms of mindfulness in the schools? .

Ashley: Yeah. I think one thing’s important is to as I start out really going back to that definition of, you know, mindfulness being present in the moment, right?

And, and bringing in compassion, right? Mm-Hmm. and bringing in non-judgment and acceptance and have you mentioned allowance. And so that’s really been the premise of a lot of my work when it comes into the schools. And so I began. And at the very early of my career, when I was working on a lot of mental health and behavioral health settings with youth and young adults, and at the time when I was finding the practice, I was also working with other individuals that.

We’re experiencing varying situations in their environments might have also experienced a lot of of the symptoms that come from having some type of mental health diagnoses or behavioral health change. And so when we think about being present right with those that can be a challenge depending on what it is and the supports [00:10:00] in which one have.

And so when I was going through my own transition and found the practice. I got really curious about what it looks like to then teach and educate and create space to be in some of the practices that I was learning within the environments that I was working in. So it kind of happened very much at the same time of my own self discovery and my own journey.

And so I was really curious about more specific how to use these practices and environments that we know that there have been experiences that have led to trauma. And so went in, did a lot of studying just around, like diving deep into trauma, the effects of what trauma looks like in the body, the effects of what trauma might look like in environments, the responses that someone that might have experienced in the past.

Certain types of trauma from from grief and loss from neglect or abuse from even like poverty and low socioeconomic statuses and the facts that, [00:11:00] you know, our social determinants really have in our health. And so as I studied those, I, you know, the one thing that really that really lit me up and ignited me to really want to advocate for these practices within institutions like schools and hospitals or youth and adult programs were the simple fact that a lot of the solutions were met with pharmaceuticals.

And you know, one thing that I think our practice, if we dive really deep into it, being mindful is all about knowing who we are. And there are certain things that I think can also be barriers to that. There’s some things that can be supplemented, that can supplement our identity and our experience.

And there’s some things that can actually be barriers and not allow us to really even connect. And so I got really curious of. Two things what it looks like to teach these skills that in which we hold that we can learn as humans as an individuals and we can strengthen them and they come from within with practice.

And it invites us to return back to ourselves, right? And [00:12:00] so versus you know, what does it look like to, to rely or to be in usage of a substance, whether it’s a pharmaceutical, or maybe even another another substance or drug. And so. Got really curious about that and wanted to figure out ways to really introduce it.

And so I started practicing in the environments that I worked with and using group classes and, you know, small, like small tutorials teaching people about like their senses. But I think the one thing that really kind of ignited me was the way that there was also a curiosity from other people, right, like more specifically for my experiences, you know, as a black woman working in predominantly black environments are predominantly like environments initially starting out at the very beginning, you might care about 10 years ago, but working in environments in which.

Proximity to education around holistic practices or contemplative practices. We’re not ones that were at the forefront, right? So creating space to reduce that disparity of education [00:13:00] around mindfulness or contemplative practices really lit me up. And so, started teaching it within the institutions that I was working within.

And really at that time, really trying to advocate for it, right? So in 2012 and 2013 I guess it’s like 12 or 13 years ago, you know, there wasn’t much high level. Mindfulness practices specifically within our school systems, within our juvenile correctional centers,

you might see you know, you might see more yogic philosophy practices and of course we pull our mindful practices, you know, in relationship to those, but we didn’t see kind of like a holistic model of, you know, You know, all the different ways in which mindfulness could be shared or all the different ways in which healing practices could be offered and utilized to address some of the mental behavioral health challenges that both our youth and our adults, whether they were being provided direct care or they were individuals offering the direct care.[00:14:00]

So like employees or maybe even the leaders or the administrators that were than creating the spaces. For direct care to happen by caregivers and or learn professionals. And so at that time, I did a lot of power points. And I did a lot of requesting presentations. I also did a lot of like work and saying, Hey, like, just let me show you that this works.

And so doing it at no cost and really meaning to make sure that it was accessible. And then over the years. I think what the practice does to is it works, it shows up. Right. So there’s so much power in the practice and people see some of the outcomes as an increased focus or a balanced A balance and emotion or regulated opportunity or improvement in self regulation within environments.

Clearer communication is one that I think comes up because, you know, once [00:15:00] again, the more that you know how to express what’s happening and your bodily sensations are with your mood. There’s an increase in improved relationships and healthy relationships because there’s deeper connection and ability to, to express whether it’s creatively, verbally, non verbally.

And so these are some of the things that we really started to see. And I can’t because my practice did start a lot with like yoga asana. I think one thing that’s important is that was an inlet for. Getting present with the body,

Gissele: you know,

Ashley: and so letting people really kind of share how they found more ease and their body.

They found more mobility and spaciousness and, you know, their shoulders. They found a deeper breath and a longer exhale, which helps regulate the parasympathetic nervous system and decreased cortisol level. So There’s so many holistic factors that I think that we need to bring high level to whether we are, [00:16:00] regardless of what method we might be using to create more presence in our moment.

Gissele: Yeah. Thank you. You said so many important things. The 1st, I’m going to focus on is the, it’s the over medication of children I was working in the child protection system and I was in quality assurance. So I used to actually talk to the young people.

And say, how can we improve services? And they would tell me about the medications and they would tell me about how it made them feel and how they didn’t find it helpful. And there was quite a high percentage of kids that were medicated, especially for ADHD.

And I was like, what’s happening? And in the end it ended up being that, People with trauma, like, it can look like ADHD because there’s so many triggers. And so I don’t know if that’s an effective way to manage people that have experienced trauma. And one of the things I loved about what you said is like

once we become aware of what people’s histories are, their experiences are, will [00:17:00] become kinder, more loving, more accepting and allowing of their behavior and get more curious about it than saying, well, there’s something wrong with you. Here you go. The other thing that I felt that was really important and maybe we could dive a little bit deeper on is the.

The need for acceptance of a specific program at all levels, right? So if you’re going to the school, it’s not just the kids that need the support. It’s the teachers and the principals. how does that help sort of a program become more embedded within a system?

Ashley: Yeah, I think that’s key. Specifically in the school environment that I work in, but I see it replicated in a lot of the school systems is that a lot of the teachers also attended the same school district, the same school.

And so you, you have. I have very shared lived experiences. I think on the opposite end of that is that, you know, you have some teachers that are within a school or leadership that’s within a school that actually have very different [00:18:00] experience than the students in which they, they have. And so I think the purpose in mentioning that is because lived experiences can be very different.

Right. But the human experience is very similar. And that’s where the curiosity is meant to take place because sometimes those environments in which, you know, there’s similarity and lived experience but there’s a difference in like the age you might see our kids behavior different because it might’ve been something that you experienced or might’ve been something that you actually.

Actually can resonate with or can’t resonate with and if, and if it’s your lived experience, that might not have been a very pleasant one or have been unpleasant, then. That can actually also breed heavy emotional sensation or thought. And so I think 1 thing that has been really important in working in this environment is really understanding the human experiences [00:19:00] of

Both youth and adults and the structure of the school systems when we are introducing these practices that are inviting us into our present moment, meaning they’re inviting us into our emotions. They’re inviting us to our bias. They’re inviting us into the way that certain like the way that certain sensations feel in our body.

And so there’s a, there’s a holistic model that I think needs to be. Kind of address and how we either deliver implement or even review what it looks like to create like a mindful school environment when we’re centering the well being because when we work with the school and this is one thing that I found in my experience is that we would work with our youth and we would have after school programming programming within the classroom.

Sure. I’m teaching various skills that enhanced creative expression that, you know invited in more self regulation invited in certain certain methods that helped communicate both verbally and non verbally in a mindful [00:20:00] way. And. We would teach them, we would have this classroom, we would have this setting, and then they would go into another setting, or they might go home where these practices not, were not necessarily taught.

So rather than creating a culture, right in which it could be practiced or taught, and you’re surrounded by individuals that, you know, have the same characteristics or value systems, we were just building character. And There was nowhere in the culture to then practice the character.

And so for me, it felt like while we were seeing benefits in the moment, which was like kind of like instant gratification, we weren’t creating a system that really invited us to then be in practice, which we know, you know, mindfulness is a practice. Being a compassionate human as a practice, returning back to ourselves as a practice.

It’s not something that you’re going to go into a 30 minute to 45 minute class. It’s taught to you. You get an opportunity to experience it and then you go back out and then you don’t necessarily see it [00:21:00] around you. And so. We felt that it was kind of sometimes doing a disservice in the long run, both for the time in which some of the professionals like the mindful instructors were going in to then offer, but then also a disservice to those that we were then sharing and building relationship with, like our students, because they didn’t, we didn’t offer that long sustainability or long term sustainability there.

And so there’s that. And I think when we think about with the teachers, It kind of goes the same in the same route where if we’re then working specifically with the teachers and then they are then wanting to utilize these within their classrooms, then in the kids don’t know them that quite yet, or they don’t have the capacities and learn in all of their classrooms.

You know, there’s sometimes a disconnect. And so. That is one thing that has been a priority when working within school systems is creating a whole school model where the same information that is shared with the youth is then shared with the [00:22:00] teachers, is shared with administration, and is also shared and goes home to the parents.

Because. It requires practice and community to then really reap the benefits of the, the characteristics that might come from those that are in relationship within a mindfulness practice.

Gissele: Yeah really well said. I completely agree with your perspective because what you’re trying to create is, is that culture is that culture of mindfulness, the culture of compassion is the, is the current program that you are involved in terms of the schools embedded within the schools, or is it something that is like project based

Ashley: Yeah, there’s a couple of different ways that I think that I could really answer that question because one of the biggest challenge and when you talk about funding has been the funding of sustainable work. I think that from an institutional side, the benefits of that the practices offer could be hugely impactful.

Once again, for our whole [00:23:00] school up from the students all the way up to there, our leadership administration. Dive deep into the community because there’s such a, there’s such a. Direct. Relationship between what happens in the school and what happens in the community. And so we know on paper, if there was consistent practice than that.

An engagement and a focus that there could be huge benefits and huge impact on not just the lives of our students, but then the relationships that then create these ecosystems. So there’s that. And when it comes to, I think the funding for it, you know funding a lot of times comes from research funding.

A lot of times comes from data that has occurred. And so historically, Mindfulness is really just, I mean, like I said, when I first started there were on my hand, like you could count on your hand how many people were really studying mindfulness and, and specifically in schools and with institutions and tying it to education.

It’s just recently over, I think over the [00:24:00] past five years where we’re really seeing a lot of like research funding kind of going into. These programs to, to, to get the results. And so there’s been a lack of funding to really support sustainable programs. And, or you have to do a program that’s going to reap a certain outcome, right?

So there’s some constraints there. And so for the work that I’ve. Done, I initially started 1st and foremost, like I said, just really going in and being accessible. So a lot of the programming that I offered was not at cost. And so we either did it on a donation base. Schedule in which schools could invite us in and, you know, I think one thing that I will dare say is that a lot of trust was built and moving into schools in that way.

A lot of deep relationship specifically with something that people were curious about and didn’t have a lot of information about. And so that then led to, you know, some school funding that came and more specifically, I’ll dare to say it came during the COVID. The beginnings of the COVID pandemic when.[00:25:00]

You know, the behavioral mental health and the social health of individuals was really a highlighted, really wanting to be addressed. And so we my organization bear soul also in the well, collective also partnered with other organizations. Maybe familiar like whole school mindfulness, which is, you know, a global organization and then other local organizations that really wanted to emphasize behavioral mental health.

And so really doing a lot of partnership with them and together to create these programs within school settings. And so that has been something that has really ignited the work. I have served as a program coordinator. And a trainer of mindful based restorative practices is what we really kind of like to call them.

And the work that I do a trainer for other educators and people that were volunteers. So they could then help support and build capacity for the need. And then I’ve also served as a mindfulness director, specifically under that direction of, but I mentioned whole school mindfulness.

Gissele: I love how, you know, this has been like [00:26:00] community initiative, you know, like you put forth your desire to provide assistance and be of service. And then you came together as a community to, to help and to actually impact humanity positively. This is why I think that these sort of initiatives can’t be A one off or funded by governments, they have to be embedded within the schools.

The school system has to be incorporating these as a core practice as a core value. It’s it’s the same with compassion. I think I think the whole system is shifting. I don’t think it’s sustainable. I don’t know about schools in the US, but I know the schools in Canada the things that they’re teaching are very outdated. the history is one sided. there’s this great dissatisfaction around the way that this school system is managed. These old systems in general seem to be collapsing. And so now I think it’s a perfect opportunity for us to really determine going back to your original comment.

Who are you? Who do you [00:27:00] want to be? Like really understanding ourselves and really understanding then what do we want to create as a collective and as a system. And I think the foundation of that is the mindfulness and the compassion. I’ve been involved in, in many ministry, government funded things, and sometimes it’s just the flavor of the day.

Like, so now mindfulness is big and then they’ll put it, they’ll dump a whole bunch of money into it and then, and then they’ll move on to the next flavor. And it’s like, no, no, this is, this is important and this is something that I think should be embedded. I also think that the way that you guys are doing it, it is incorporated into the culture by teaching on all those different levels.

Have you found any sort of resistance among any group in particular, or has this always been like just generalized acceptance of the program? I

Ashley: Yeah, I mean the resistance definitely right and you know, you just really named it is that you know, I think or I know that the systems that we’ve had in place, they’re, they’re being outdated.

They are falling. And [00:28:00] the ways that we know that is because, you know, the increase in mental health, the, the increase and like even school shootings, the increase and dissatisfaction of teachers, and Also, just kind of like the increase in lack of funding to then support the things or, you know, and I think that there’s so many things that, you know, the more that, you know, I know that I practice being present and the more that the people that are knee deep embedded in this work.

I do think that. When you have more mindful individuals that are paying attention, we can see all of the things, the things that are really going well and the things that are not. And so I think that’s where the resistant comes is that right now, you know, I’ve found my resistance. And in spaces in which, you know, the systems are not working right.

You know, there’s a lot of angst and within the spaces or the environment and that can be school systems that can be the government agencies that we might work with, or the ones that, you know, might have provided the [00:29:00] funding for for certain initiatives. And, you know, there’s. When we are able to highlight and or be able to name that something’s not working and state that, you know, resistance is going to come because that makes people uncomfortable.

And I think that’s kind of really where we’re landing right now. And so there’s a lot that many of us are really ready for. And then also there’s a lot that our hearts just want to feel and do better. Because we are we are experiencing So much disconnection that’s been amplifying all of these things.

And so at some point. it’s like, when do we actually call change? And so for me, the resistance has really come when I have had the capacity to say, like, Hey, this actually isn’t working right. Our kids grades aren’t getting better. We’re seeing an increase in fights, like and this is in the school system, but then even when we think about working with leadership, like the [00:30:00] teachers aren’t happy, right?

The teachers are, their wellbeing’s not at the forefront right now, or, you know, or our parents are. You know, complaining about this or our parents actually don’t have the capacity to support the youth in this way. And, you know, and then to come in and to say, Hey, do you, can we practice this? Like, is there a way that we can come in and have some communication?

Because healthy communication requires presence and it requires honesty and openness. And In those moments, you know, you there’s a lot that can be that can be brought up. And and so the resistance that I’ve really, I think, face is being able to clearly communicate what is present.

Right. And then offering up a solution. Right. That is different than the way that, you know, it might have happened before, you know, it might not be a program. It might be really relationship centered. And this is how we’re going to center relationship. And, you know, that requires work and skill [00:31:00] and practice.

And, and at the end of the day, it requires time. You know, and, and so finding time within a school schedule, finding time within a work schedule that one is familiar with to even come and be in practice outside of an institution is, I think, a challenge. And, you know, also one’s own self one owns self awareness.

Right. And can be a huge challenge, whether it’s, you know, when I’m working in within a school environment and a student is being introduced to something, but doesn’t actually know what they need. And then you offer them a practice and they’re like, why am I doing this? Right. And, you know, over time they’re like, Oh my gosh, like, this is what I needed.

And you hear the same thing with an adult, right? It’s like, you know, I just want more calm. I want more ease. I want more like compassion for myself. I want to be in better relationship. And, you know, It might take 10 times to show up [00:32:00] to be in a practice that has the opportunity to lead into that because it’s different, you know, and so there’s a lot of different reasons why resistance.

can show up both institutionally, culturally, personally, and individually. And so one of my main intentions is to continue to trust the process and to continue to be present way. If, you know, my own experience and then also being curious and open and also responsible for creating space where another person might be ignited to get curious and present about their own experience.

Gissele: Mm. Yeah. And I think this is how we change the world. It’s being standing within our own emotions, being mindful, being an allowance, getting curious because when we can hold space for our own difficult feelings, then we can be open. I can be open and [00:33:00] curious about you. I can be open and receptive to things as you hold space for your difficult feelings.

And then we can engage in that difficult dialogue where people say things that are, you know, Triggering or hurtful or whatever, and then we can still hold space for conversation versus what we do now as a society, which is cancel one another and shut down conversation. Because, like, you said, we’re not in awareness of how we’re feeling.

We’re not in awareness of what we need in that moment. And so I do believe that changing a culture is each 1 of us doing that work that work that you are helping people understand to do, which is, I think, what is important. Hopefully going to lead to the change. I wanted to circle back to what you had said, offering different, perspectives or different options in terms of what we have done before you’d mentioned how you had mindfulness in in youth justice, or is that did I hear that correctly?

Or can you talk a little bit about that? Because [00:34:00] historically with these sorts of systems, they’re based on

on isolation and separation. They’re based on punishment.

We want to punish. And so to come to these systems and say, why don’t we do something a little differently? Why don’t we include yoga or mindfulness or compassion based training? I think it would lead to that resistance. What sort of reception did you find when you were incorporating such practices within the youth justice system and what perhaps were some of the outcomes?

Ashley: Yeah. So it’s like, so I’ll, I’ll start with the resistance that might, that came from kind of, you know, adults, like my counterparts, right. You know, I think I laugh and I can laugh and I can say this with with grace and openness is that, you know, I was the happy one, right? Like I was air quotes, the happy one or the calm one.

Or the sunshine, right. But I was also working within an environment of individuals that had long hours that were working in an environment in which there were many individuals that had varying experiences of trauma, [00:35:00] right. And, and burnout and compassion fatigue, and people had big hearts.

And that’s why they showed up in these environments because they cared about other people. And. There’s also fatigue and there’s exhaustion. And so I think that that’s something that’s important to name of why I completely and fully understand why resistance was there. Because if you are whether you were a guard or I call them behavioral like specialists now and you worked on varying units and you not just witnessed, but we’re in relationship and in conversation with.

You know, use that, you know, basically have your rights taken away, regardless of what experience or what had led them there. You know, that’s a, that’s a limitation, right? That’s a sensation of, of grief of loss that you’re surrounded by. So I want to first and foremost name that I think the environments breed a culture, right?

Simply [00:36:00] by what is present in the human experience and those moments

of one

that is that, that, that is heavy. Right. And I and sensational and, and, and 1 must be aware of that. And so 1 of the main resistance was, you know, just it’s not going to work. Right? Like. a little bit of sunshine and what might seem like a dark place is just not gonna work.

And so, like, you’re wasting your time, like, you know, or even the judgment of of the youth that were incarcerated’s, like, experience of being there. Right. And so not finding that value that, you know, they even deserve to have improved focus or balance or ease or a calmed nervous system. So I think that was the thing you really have to see the human experience and kind of move beyond the The the judgment of the experience that might be different from yours.

So I think that’s something that’s important to name. So [00:37:00] that whole perception of it’s not going to work. You know, they don’t deserve this. Or then so we don’t have enough time or they’re not going to be interested was a very heavy one. And so how I got beyond that was that I kept showing up.

And, you know, of course, as young adults or teens would do anyways, you have to build relationship with them. I couldn’t come in and then teach them something completely different. I had to educate. I had to, Be in participation. I had to model being in clear communication and modeled an easeful nervous system and a tone of voice that was welcoming.

I had to create a space of belonging and safety and support. I like using all of the tenants of trauma responsive practices. Right. Of empowering voice and choice and being open to, to communication and, and understanding all of the identities and creating a space of belonging for all the identities that showed up, like you have, like, those are key.

And so that’s one way that I did that. But then when it came to also just, you [00:38:00] know, even the departments. And at hand are the departments that kind of really supervised the programs really needing to advocate for funding. So I think, you know, a lot of the roles in which when specifically when I worked with that.

And I worked within juvenile correctional centers, you know, funding, there’s a lot of volunteer based work, which I think is helpful. And, you know, I still say to this day that I would still be there. You know, if COVID had not occurred when it did, and, you know, kind of shifted some of my availability, I would still probably be there every week offering it in that way.

And then also just thinking about the sustainability of what it looks like to, to do that. And so I think funding is one way that. You know a lot of the organizations or that the department really named that they might not have had the funding to support it. Right. Or, you know, we, we don’t see the benefits of it.

Right. Or, you know, or the benefits that are right now, because a lot of times the way that we, that we measure impact is, you [00:39:00] know. Job security or I, well, which is right, but we, we measure these like very tangible things like capacity to have a job or they got released and, you know, they stayed out this amount of time or even with us, right.

You know, it’s that you were judged up about our capacity to be an attendant at something, right? Like, there’s markers, but a thing that it’s usually measured on something that is produced. Not necessarily something that which is then witnessed or built from a characteristic standpoint. And so I think it’s just hard to put money behind or to advocate.

It’s not hard to advocate, but it’s hard to see if you’re not a part of or in practice of it or in study of it to really acknowledge the impact that it has.

Gissele: Yeah, and the whole issue of, like, trying to quantify, you know, how do you quantify impact? It has to be something observable, which is why often governments will find based on outputs, not [00:40:00] outcomes.

At least that has been my experience. It’s like how many people attended or, you know, like, what, what can I, what’s the low hanging fruit and what’s something that I could easily quantify rather than what is a real long term impact on this individual’s lives and sometimes it’s not as easily observable.

And I think, you know, when you were talking about deservability earlier in our conversation, you were talking about, we don’t think that people deserve but, you know, as you were talking, I was reminded, I had a conversation with a friend of mine and she was mentioning how, you know, when people are in corrections, right, you’re asking them, like, you put them in that environment.

Right. You put them with other people that have the same level of consciousness, energy, awareness, thoughts, and then you’re asking them to do this Herculean thing about asking them to become better people, but they’re in that same environment with those same people and treated harshly. And so. How is it that you expect them then to become loving, compassionate, like [00:41:00] law abiding citizens.

So what you’re inviting them to do is to do something different to help them regulate their bodies to understand themselves so that they can understand their behavior. And that’s really what gets us to change. but again, there’s always that fear of like, they were hurtful people and therefore we’re not punishing them and therefore they’re going to be hurtful.

But it’s in fact, I found it’s the other way. It’s initiative like yours that enable people to really get in touch with that humanity, get to know themselves and and. Get to focus on their own deservedness. So, yeah, so I think that’s, I think people underestimate the power of that, but sometimes our need to punish is so high.

Ashley: But it comes from a place of fear, right? Like if we punish them, then maybe they won’t do it again, but looking at the recidivism literature,That doesn’t work. It just doesn’t work. So like you said, if it doesn’t work, then we need to do something different. If you want a different outcome, as Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and then expecting something to [00:42:00] change.

And I think that’s where we are, are right now, you know, like just, you know, as mentioning that our systems are not working. And if we think about also like the punitive systems that we have, or, you know, they’re really built, you know from places of oppression. Right. I mean, so specifically in America, right.

If we just look at, you know. About like how our, how our country was founded and, you know, who is valued, who wasn’t, when did punishment come and, you know, and who received it. And so I think that’s something that’s really key to acknowledge as we, you know, observe and witness many of the systems that were, that were created here, but then also brought from other countries and or established in other countries.

So I don’t think. You know, as much as I want to really focus on America, and many times if you’re in conversation with me, I focus on the conversation of the foundation of Richmond, like in, in Richmond’s high to not just the American history, but then [00:43:00] also the history. Three of our country and its involvement with the transatlantic slave trade and you know, they’re so we can really really look at a micro level or a macro level wherever our proximity is to see kind of like how we have chosen to move away from valuing and under valuing and understanding.

Our humanity as a whole, but then also how we value and understand individual identity and the connection to humanity. And so I think we’re really struggling with that as a people. And so these practices. That are very ancient indigenous to us. Right. So being present, being present with ourselves as a clear direction to being in relationship.

Right. And so, you know, as we think about how these systems were built, it was to keep people out of relationships with themselves. It’s to, uphold power and privilege in a way that, you know, You know, I think what right now we’re seeing the, the fall of that because we’re so far away from [00:44:00] our humanity and the way that we’re actually meant to live as humans.

And so that would need to change and that’s really what that keeps me in my own practice, but then also keeps me advocating for. Creating space for all individuals in our collective to be a part of because I think the more that we find ourselves and the earlier that we start, then the better our world is going to be well.

Gissele: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s one of the things that when we talk about, when we try to have those conversations about colonization, we try to have conversations about, look at what we’ve done as a humanity. And I say everyone, because we’ve all contributed through acts of omission or commission, right?

Like, and if we’re experiencing it, we’ve contributed to it. And so being able to hold space for those difficult conversations without Ejecting out so managing our own shame in our own guilt with love and compassion with, with understanding and curiosity and non [00:45:00] judgment will help us then understand, okay, this is who we’ve been.

Now, is this what we want to continue to be? if not this, then what? How can we then change ourselves to change humanity, to be more loving, to be more compassionate, to be more but that takes, like you said, awareness, awareness of who we’ve been. And I think, especially in Canada, there’s still, like, a huge amount of work that needs to be done about acknowledgement.

There’s been that acknowledgement of what was done to Indigenous people. But not a real, a real understanding, not a real acknowledgement of like, this is who we were, and this is what we did, and this is how we’re going to move forward to not do that or be that anymore. And this is the sort of reparations and acknowledgement and things that we need to do for our indigenous brothers and sisters in order to move towards being that.

And I think there’s still sort of like, yeah, yeah, it happened, but can we move on already? [00:46:00] No, we can’t move on because we haven’t changed. We have not changed. So until we are different, until we are more loving and compassionate and inclusive and don’t need to oppress our brother to lift ourselves up, we can’t stop looking at it.

Right. I wanted to talk just a little bit about, you mentioned creating spaces for black individuals around making it accessible to the black community yoga. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Ashley: Yeah. So as I mentioned, like I came to, you know, my yoga practice and journey in 2012, 2013, really at a time of my life of transition. And so when I was seeking you know, health, right, I was seeking myself, I was seeking ways to take care of myself. You know, I was accessing and when I found like the practice to really compliment my faith practice, right?

So by trade I am christian and you know over the past [00:47:00] 12 years, you know, like really landing in that spirituality space but At that moment, when I first began, I looked around me. And when I was really trying to dive deep into the yoga practice, I didn’t see many people that looked like me, right. I would go to the gyms and I would be always only the, I would be like one, if not one of two people of color or black women and also black women.

Right. So I think that’s a thing too, such as both gender and as well as racial identity. And the more that I practice and the more that I felt better, I was like, Oh my gosh, like, I want to Ensure that people that look like me also know about this practice, because, you know, between my mom and my dad and, you know, my uncles and my uncles and my, my uncles and my aunts and my cousins and my friends, you know, we were, there was stress that was present and varying way the stress does.

And I was like, this could be an answer or at least a method in which, you know, we learn more about and a philosophy that we learn about. And so. That, to me, was my [00:48:00] first that was really my first desire is to really want to increase representation of that, that, you know, people of color are welcome to use this.

Like, it’s an ancient indigenous practice, right? Like, and I think our society and our media has done a really good way of defining and making You know, such an ancient indigenous practice, one that, you know, comes from a lot of different places with a lot of different cultural backgrounds and relevancies and philosophies that You know, I think in America, we really, we kind of shifted what that looked like specifically during that time.

I think we’ve done better. So increasing representation was key for me. Increasing opportunity to education, but then also decreasing health disparity through this practice was something That was really important to me. And so really wanting to dive deep into that. I think one thing that we learned though, and so I’m 12 years post really engaging in this [00:49:00] practice and sharing it is that when you create a space of belonging and inclusivity and welcoming a representation for really what is historically marginalized community or underrepresented, you actually create space for so many diverse identities because It comes back to that human experience, right?

It’s like when you can see, you didn’t really see everything. And so the people and our students that were attracted to either practice with myself Or within the space and that was recreated, you know, then also could take that out and then create a more belonging space for the identities that showed up and then bring in even their identity.

And so we are a very diverse community now. And so one thing is, my journey began with, the physical. Practices pranayama and breathing and asana and movement and stuff. And today I really am an advocate for the embodiment of the philosophies that the yoga practice teaches, but a lot of that, a lot of [00:50:00] like Yoruba practices and other cultural ancient indigenous practices offer because.

You know, it, they emphasize restoration. They emphasize creativity. They emphasize freedom and liberation. They emphasize clarity and connection. They emphasize of interconnection, of self study, of presence Right now, for me, it’s really creating spaces for people to embody many of the things that we might learn to enhance our self awareness, to enhance our relationship with community, and to enhance our action, our collective action to create a better world.

And so that’s what’s really landed me at the evolution of Bare Soul, which is the well collective. And really being a movement to kind of really understand that our wellbeing is foundational and we really need to call in presence and practice and community to get back to, to our humanity and in very healing ways.

Gissele: Hmm. Oh, beautifully said. [00:51:00] Perfect. Perfect segue. Two more questions. The first one is what is your definition of unconditional love?

Ashley: Hmm. It goes back to what I named the maintain constant loveOur human experience is.

Is founded in love. Like our foundation is love. And, you know, if we can truly understand that love is an action, love comes through our speech, love comes through the way that we look or that we are it’s really an invitation to maintain constant love beyond what experience or environment or yeah, experience or environment that’s in front of us.

And so, you know. Sometimes we say, like, it’s beyond condition, but even that sometimes can be a biased statement. So for me, it’s like, it’s going back to just maintaining constant love through action. And then through presence,

Gissele: I love that choosing love basically, you know, like constantly choosing, [00:52:00] just choose.

Oh, I love it. So tell us a little bit about your website. Where can people find you? Where can people work with you or can they find out more about you?

Ashley: Yeah. So I invite you to, to be in relationship with me. You can find me at www.iamashleywilliams. com that will lead you to all of the what’s that are centered on my wise of community and connection of love and of liberation.

And so I’m all things, the well collective everywhere on Instagram, on Facebook And also on the website, thewellcollective.Space you can find me in Richmond, Virginia. So whenever you are here, please come and say hello. I am creating this very beautiful and much needed center for healing and humanity through restorative practice.

And when I say the well collective, anyone that believes that we all deserve to be well is invited to show up and care for themselves and then also [00:53:00] care for their neighbors.

Gissele: Ooh. Love it. Love it. Check out the well center and check out Ashley’s website. Thank you Ashley so much for being on the podcast and for reminding me about just love for myself.

And thank you everyone for joining us for another episode of the love and compassion podcast with Giselle. Yeah. See you soon. Bye.

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Transcript

Gissele Taraba: [00:00:00] So hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Gissele.

We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world. Don’t forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content. Today, we’ll be chatting about the importance of mindfulness in the school system. My guest today is Ben Painter, co founder and partner at Whole School Mindfulness, which is at the forefront of integrating mindfulness into education to promote wellbeing, community, and justice.

Celebrated by mindful. org as the rising voice in the field, Ben is an accomplished facilitator with over 80 days in dedicated mindfulness meditation retreats, notably at Drupadrong Monastery in Northern Nepal. Ben excels in creating engaging and safe environments that inspire growth and learning, and he is recognized for his ability to connect deeply with individuals.

His [00:01:00] workshops are designed to enhance self awareness, emotional intelligence, and resiliency, equipping attendees with the skills to incorporate mindfulness into their lives and positively impact their communities. Please join me in welcoming Ben to the show. Hi, Ben.

Ben Painter: Hey, how you doing? I’m

Gissele Taraba: good. How are you?

Thank you so much for being on the show. I’m so excited to have this chat. I was wondering if you could start by telling the audience how you got into this work. How does, how did this sort of come about?

Ben Painter: Yeah, let’s see. It goes back to when I was a kid, actually. I had a couple of close family members who kind of went through it with fairly severe mental health challenges and mindfulness and meditation of different types was a part of their healing journey.

It wasn’t, you know, the silver bullet that made them all better, but it was a core part of it. And so I think it was kind of in my subconscious that these things could be helpful. And [00:02:00] then I went to High school in Concord, Massachusetts called Middlesex, and they had a really amazing, innovative way of introducing mindfulness to their students where there was somebody whose job it was to do that.

His title was the mindfulness director. His name is Doug Worthen. And he’s still the mindfulness director there full time. And I really just. liked him as a person and as a mentor. And so at first it was, it was kind of just like, Oh yeah, I’d heard about this mindfulness thing, knew it could be helpful.

This guy, Doug seems really awesome. I want to do whatever he’s doing. So I started to get into mindfulness then and took all the classes with him. I could, and then started going on retreats as a fairly young person. And just fell in love with the practice, what it can do to your mind. And also the communities built around the practice and yeah, it’s been a core part of my life ever since.

And the story of [00:03:00] how I got into this work with whole school mindfulness. And what we do is essentially we’re trying to launch other mindfulness teaching positions in schools across the U S. Was the model that was pioneered at Middlesex was successfully scaled once a few different puzzle pieces came together.

There was a funder that helped kind of grease the wheels of bureaucracy at the school to get it going. There was a school who’s willing and interested in integrating mindfulness. And then there was a person who was a right fit for that community had a deep practice and the puzzle pieces kind of came together.

And. The program in a school in Texas was launched and I was just graduating college. I had a first job working at this amazing organization called New Profit. And yeah, long story short, we decided to start an organization to, to try to scale this thing.

Gissele Taraba: Wow, that is so, so amazing. [00:04:00] I want to start by focusing on the part that you said that you had taken it as a student.

What was the impact for you when you, when you are a student going through that program?

Ben Painter: Yeah, it was a very deep impact for me. I think for one, it was a. It was just a cool signal from my school that, hey, this is part of what it means to be educated here. It’s, it’s, it’s just a part of what this school wants me to know.

Is these tools to help investigate your mind and relate to your own experience, process emotions, kind of get in touch with your needs so you can more effectively communicate it. So it was, it was a cool reorientation of what I thought was part of kind of a core educational experience. So that was on one hand on another hand, you know, high school I faced the normal stressors of high school experience.

I was an athlete. I, you know, wanted to get into a good college and the academics were really tough [00:05:00] at my school. So just having tools to work through all that. Was just really helpful for me. And then, I would also say it really started to impact my relationships. For one, my best friend and I both were really into it.

So it was kind of a medium of connection for us. And then I really think it did help me. Yeah, just, you know, I think, I think in order to be In relationship, well, friendship or romantic, you need to be in touch with your own experience. And so it helped me there.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. when I read this information about like what the goal of your organization is, I thought this was so, so pivotal.

And so that’s why I reached out about having you in the show. I want to talk about the state of schools in the U S is, is it anything like in Canada?

Because it’s not good. It’s not good. Yeah.

Ben Painter: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely, young [00:06:00] people are having a hard time in general.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah like, I don’t know about the experience in the U. S. in particular, but I know in Canada, this has kind of been a long time coming. I do think that this, this rise in frustration with the school system in terms of sometimes the punitive approaches that are used with young people.

And in the way that intelligence is assessed through all these standardized tests and how people that are potentially aberrant don’t really fit into that mold. I think we’re starting to realize that a lot of the systems we created, including the education system. They just don’t, they just don’t work.

And so I love that your program in the schools are focusing on mindfulness, because I don’t think we focus enough on the self. So what, can you share some of the outcomes that some of you guys have seen in implementing mindfulness into the school system?

Ben Painter: Yeah, first I’ll just share, I really resonate with your, you’re just saying, and I think a core kind of reason the, you [00:07:00] know, one of the whys for me and for my team is that we do believe.

An ingredient of systemic change is the change of individual hearts and minds that, you know, the, the people in the system really matter when you’re trying to change the system. And yeah, that’s the hope for us is that, you know, mindfulness works its way into schools to districts, and it’s not only the students that are benefiting, but it’s also the adults.

The faculty staff, the administration, hopefully it changes the culture of the place and potentially the kind of more policy based structure of the place in time. Or, you know, is one of the factors that leads to positive change. That’s the hope. It’s not only about individuals. It’s about the collective and the, and the system.

Yeah. And then in terms of how, what, what the path has been for whole school, [00:08:00] we got going five years ago. And so the timing of that was a bit hectic. We really got going right when COVID was hitting.

Gissele Taraba: Made

Ben Painter: it. So on one hand, COVID totally exacerbated that. And sped up the mental health crisis young people were isolated there on screens even more than they were before not getting a lot of the, their needs met when it comes to social connection and otherwise.

Sorry, a bug. It’s coming.

Gissele Taraba: That’s the beauty of having an outdoor interview, although it’s very beautiful there.

Ben Painter: Yeah, we’ll see. If he keeps on buzzing after me, I’m going to move inside. Okay, I’m moving. So, what happened was there was, we saw increased flexibility and willingness to change. Schools and school leaders who the idea of really launching a [00:09:00] Integrated robust mindfulness program.

That wouldn’t have been an option, but COVID kind of made that an option. There was a collective change to be more willing to adapt to try to meet the needs of students. We saw that happening. But on the other hand, the need increased. And innovating in schools in a time where I’m sorry for your audience.

I don’t know if swearing is okay on this. Yeah, you can

Gissele Taraba: go ahead.

Ben Painter: You know, she was hitting the fan in schools, you know, administrators and teachers were up against so much just like the students. And so getting new programs off the ground in that time and budgets were in flux, you know, every, it was just a time of relative chaos.

So in that made it harder to integrate. But that’s all this, you know, that’s all kind of background context. What we do is we launch cohorts of what we call mindfulness directors. So folks apply to us with their partner schools. So [00:10:00] typically it’s people who are already connected to a school in some way.

So it’s an English teacher. It’s a math teacher. It’s a guidance counselor, a very involved parent who has a mindfulness practice. They’re into it. They know about it. And maybe there already is some momentum happening. Where they are already introducing mindfulness to their students or to their school in some way, and they hear about us and they say, Oh, my gosh, this is my dream job that I didn’t know could exist.

And they apply to us with support from their school administration to become a mindfulness director and we put both the person and the partner school through a fairly robust vetting process. And if they. Kind of past that, then the school we give funding to, because, you know, it’s hard to start a new thing at a school, particularly when there’s a cost associated with it.

So we, we try to act in true partnership and help get, get it going. [00:11:00] And then, and with the mindfulness director, we just try to support them a lot. In getting it going, so we bring all the mindfulness to directors together every other week to form a learning community and in that learning community, we are offering professional development on things that we think mindfulness directors got to know about.

So that’s one thing we do, but I would say the more powerful thing is just getting people together and so they can talk shop so they can support each other. And so that. There can be a mental shift and dedicated time to, Hey, I’m this person who likes mindfulness, want to get some mindfulness momentum going to, Oh my gosh, I’m a mindfulness director.

It’s my role to figure out how to strategically figure out how to deepen this in my school community and make the deepest impact. And so I think that’s something we do really well. And so yeah, since we’ve launched. [00:12:00] We’ve got 18 mindfulness directors out there in the country that we’ve been supporting.

In general, the schools like it. They want more of it. They’re seeing the impact on the well being of their students and the community culture and the mindfulness directors really value being in the cohort as part of the experience. And we’ve had some drop off mostly due to budget cuts. But In general, the programs have sustained and look like they’re on track to be sustaining in the future.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, that’s amazing. Is it only open to people in the States or is it open internationally

Ben Painter: Yeah, right now we’re only working in the United States, but I hope that other organizations pop up doing a similar thing in Canada and and elsewhere. And maybe one day we’ll be in more places.

We’ve. Thought about narrowing our geographic scope, even to a certain region of the United States. Right now we’re across the whole country, but [00:13:00] there’s something to be said about starting small.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Cause you like, once you expand out, sometimes you can sort of lose the original quality this is why it’s, as you mentioned, it’s so important to train people in your particular Perspectives in, in the way that you want it to carry out to ensure that the quality is maintained.

Cause I think once it gets bigger, sometimes you kind of lose the vision. Why is it so important to have directors of mindfulness within the school system? Why not just have people just come in and drop and do, which is what I’ve seen. Some schools do is they come in and they have the one off where they drop off like the one person.

And for this one session, why is it so important to have a director within

Ben Painter: Yeah. And there are a lot of ways to get mindfulness into, into schools and each way it has its own set of pros and cons. We have a particular perspective that we think this one’s the best one, but that’s not to knock the other one too much because, you know yeah, there, there are different valid ways.

There are the apps. So [00:14:00] there’s, there’s ones that I would say had the benefit of being like all tech products, very scalable relatively quickly where maybe a recording is played over the loud speaker or a teacher at the beginning of their class can kind of press play and, and settle their class a little bit with a meditation.

There are the curricula based models where with some or no training, you kind of. Get teachers of other subjects to kind of teach a mini mindfulness lesson at the beginning of their class. They’re the train, the trainer models where folks will, teachers will go through a mindfulness training program to deepen their own practice, start or, and, or deepen their own practice and then introduce it to their students.

And then there are the models that you’re mentioning where an outside organization will come in, lead a mindfulness workshop or a series of workshops, and then leave. And I think the benefit of having a dedicated person or the [00:15:00] benefits of having a dedicated person, Include one, they’re a member of the community.

And I think that’s important.

Gissele Taraba: It is. Yeah.

Ben Painter: First of all, they, they, they know, and they might have a better sense of what’s going to work and what’s not going to work. And that’s one of the drawbacks of the curriculum based models is sometimes a curriculum, you know, drawn up in a boardroom in Massachusetts, just doesn’t work in Florida, or it doesn’t work.

In Kentucky or California. It’s just it’s just the cultural references don’t land. It doesn’t meet the folks where they’re at. And a person who has the skills and background can figure out how to custom tailor programming while still kind of holding on to mindfulness teaching best practice, but with some tailoring to their community way that’s going to work.

Second is in related to this idea of them being a member of the [00:16:00] community we’ve been doing as we’ve seen different mindfulness directors go through their work and we’ve seen what’s been more successful and less successful. One of the competencies that we believe a good mindfulness director have is, is really related to leadership and relationship building just as much as it is.

You know, really clearly defining mindfulness and leading a good mindfulness session, it’s about figuring out. As almost an entrepreneur of mindfulness in a fairly complicated system, you know, who should I grab lunch with and try to make them an ally to help build and establish my program? What teachers might be game to have me drop into one of their classes?

What students have social capital? And I might recruit as a mindfulness ambassador to really help grow the culture within the students. So it being a member of the community is essential for those kinds of things. Second is the [00:17:00] more time this person has. the more that they can find opportunities to offer practices to more people.

So we have some mindfulness directors who are full time with a full class load because they’re figuring out, okay, this student has this drop block. At this time, I can offer a class. Then this student has this little in between time after school before sports, I’m going to offer something. Then this group of faculty right after faculty meeting has this block.

I’m going to do this then. And they’re just finding the nooks and crannies where they can get as many mindfulness groups going as possible. And so there’s a real thing to just more time equals more successful mindfulness integration. And then lastly, if it’s somebody’s job and they are really working on developing themselves as a mindfulness teacher, They’re deepening their own practice, they’re attending professional development, kind of learning communities around [00:18:00] deepening their, their journey, and they have their own practice.

That’s really different than putting someone through a mindfulness one on one workshop and then asking them to teach mindfulness. Like we wouldn’t do that with other things. If someone didn’t know how to swim, we wouldn’t throw them in a pool for an hour and a half and then say, okay, now go teach students how to swim.

It’s just, we wouldn’t, we wouldn’t do it. For sure. Yeah,

Gissele Taraba: definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I’ve

Ben Painter: been yapping, so I’ll stop.

Gissele Taraba: No, no, no. This has been perfect. I am in full agreement with what you said. I’ve had personal experiences in trying to implement mindfulness in an organization. This was a child welfare agency because I saw the amount of stress that.

The workers were in and I had had very similar experience to what you were talking about. Number one, having that role emphasizes the priority that the organization sees it as a pivotal role within the system, rather than, oh, here’s a little class on the side that you can take or not take. And I think this is why, I mean, you had mentioned leadership, why [00:19:00] having the leadership on.

On role is so important as well as understanding the culture and how to navigate, you know, like opportunities, like you said, in, in being able to promote that. What has been the feedback from leadership at all these different organizations is it a challenge to engage? Is it easier to engage or has it been sort of a mixed bag?

Ben Painter: With the leadership of the schools?

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, the leadership in the schools. Yeah.

Ben Painter: Yeah. It’s, it’s been a mixed bag. I mean, it, one thing we’ve seen is you know, the systemic inequities that are playing out impact the ability for school leaders to have the headspace to really focus on a new initiative, even if they think it’s great.

So for, for example, You know a wealthier, whiter community in general we’ve seen has more spaciousness than a more low [00:20:00] income,

Gissele Taraba: predominantly

Ben Painter: BIPOC community facing a lot of systemic stuff,

Including gun violence and, and, and, and so getting an hour on the principal’s calendar to talk about the strategy of mindfulness integration sometimes isn’t possible in communities.

Communities that are facing more systemic oppression. So yeah, it’s, it’s been a mixed bag. It’s correlated to other broader systemic themes, I’d say.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. So thank you for sharing that. That’s very important. Sorry, go ahead.

Ben Painter: But I was just going to say in general you know, school leadership really cares about the wellbeing of their students and you know, they’re facing their own set of challenges that they’re trying to work through in their own set of metrics that they’re trying to improve.

And yeah, the best case scenario is when we find folks who are really aligned and hold those metrics in balance with just, Hey, what What do we want to offer here as a core [00:21:00] educational component? And not just thinking about something like, you know, reducing X or improving Y score. Yeah.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah.

And, and so thank you for mentioning that because sometimes schools are so focused on those metrics that they kind of miss the larger picture. As you were talking, I thought it’s so interesting that what are the outcomes that I have seen from the whole mindfulness implementation is that the decrease in that punitive approach of the schools towards the students, improvement in behavior,

Including improvement in violence. And so, isn’t it’s funny how sometimes that circle, you know, you’re caught in that violence, which means you don’t have a lot of time to implement something that could potentially help with the violence. And so it’s sort of like we’re caught in that

circle struggle, if you may. And how do we support then those communities so that they can create that space to implement something that could potentially really help them get out of that. And what, where’s our responsibility in that, right?

Ben Painter: I was just going to say that that’s totally a rich topic.

the [00:22:00] pitfall that I think is Good to have on a mindfulness teachers radar or a school administrators radar is, you know, the motivation for the person teaching mindfulness impacts the way they teach it and impacts the way that it will be received by the students. And one way that I think mindfulness in schools shows up in a less effective way.

Or a weaponized way is when it’s a tool for classroom management. When your reason for introducing mindfulness is not, you know, to give young people these amazing tools to help them understand their minds, but rather it’s to get them to sit down and shut up and focus on the thing, you know, and, and when, when it has that energy,

It’s going to feel like a control mechanism masked in the charade of well being.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, I love that you said that because the energy [00:23:00] behind anything that you do is so important and the students are so perceptive. I’ve had many conversations with students and I have my own children in their ability to perceive.

Intention is so, so amazing. And so they’d be able to see right through that anyways. But I think you were talking about mentioning motivation and that’s, I think, where having your own practice. Is important so that you can be really, really aware of why am I really doing this?

Is this from a place of ego? Is this from a place of love? Is this from a place of openness and sharing? Or is it to be able to, I’m just having a different tool now that I’m trying to use to control behavior. One of the things that I know that I have observed within the Canadian school systems is that the punitive attempt at like the punishing, especially if there are behavior issues.

And I can only imagine that things like in the States, especially, it’s probably a little bit worse there in terms of gun violence and in terms of [00:24:00] like mass shootings and so on. Have you had any experiences in terms of where mindfulness has helped? Individual sort of address some of those more difficult challenges, but from a place of compassion and from a place of love.

Ben Painter: Yeah, we have, one mindfulness director is coming to mind in particular, and she is. She’s truly amazing. Maybe I’ll, I’ll see if you might want to have her as a next guest.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, that’d be great.

Ben Painter: And she’s working in a community that is experiencing gun violence. And what we’ve seen is that she has really taken on a role in her community as a leader.

People come to for healing and community healing in the context of a lot of hard stuff. And it’s a powerful thing to see and, and to hear about [00:25:00] a community coming together using mindfulness and other healing practices as a, as a vehicle for connection, as a vehicle for building community, as a vehicle for healing in the context of really immense struggle.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. How did the students react to the mindfulness? is there any resistance in the beginning and then sort of like an embrace or is there just kind of like, let’s go.

Ben Painter: I just spent the day With one of our mindfulness directors, just following him around.

And he has done a cool thing where he he’s actually a mindfulness director at the district level rather than individual school level. So he works across a few different schools and there’s one of only one of him. So he decided to start a mindfulness ambassador program

where

he would work with young people to support them in leading mindfulness for each other.

And for younger students. And [00:26:00] so it was such a cool day. We spent a day walking around and you go from class to class, you’d come in, everyone was so excited, hand shot up in the air saying, I want to lead a mindfulness strategy. I want to lead a mindfulness strategy. And then it was really the young people steering and him acting as kind of like one, somebody who’s creating the space for that to happen and sustaining the culture where that was a cool thing to do.

And students wanted to do and then coaching. The young people on leading and it was just so cool. So I think the mindfulness directors, that’s one strategy. And one thing that we’re seeing is when young people are really into it it really latches hold. And when they are seen as experts and leaders that’s a great way of building momentum.

I want to see, I don’t know if I show a video, will that translate or not really.

Gissele Taraba: Potentially. Yeah. Yeah. Try it out.

It’s so important for young people [00:27:00] to take on those leadership roles and also I find that young people are more likely to do what other young people are saying than some adults.

Like, you know, like, it’s so funny as a mom, before in the beginning, I was like, literally like their whole world. And over time, you just kind of play the back role in their friends. So it’s become really important, their peers, what’s important to them and so on.

And so that’s the perfect venue for them to kind of, for you to embed a system or a process that will live beyond that director will leave beyond that person. Cause like you said, you’re changing a culture, right? So I think that’s pretty cool. I think that’s pretty cool.

Ben Painter: I’ll try to share. Yeah. It’s, it’s letting me share my screen.

I’ll just pull up some quotes from some of our one of our recent visits. This will be 30 seconds.

Gissele Taraba: Sorry, I don’t really know how to like say this. It’s like, it’s weird being happy in my life again. [00:28:00] My favorite part about mindfulness is that the is the freedom that it gives you, you can do like anything you want.

Other: But if we were to do more mindfulness in different schools, We will act more kinder, we will be more peaceful, less stressful, be more productive, and probably spend some more time with family and nature.

Ben Painter: Yeah. So just a couple little quotes,

Gissele Taraba: beautiful, beautiful, and you know, from the mouth of babes. Right. It’s so true. Like being able to tap into that happiness that the young girl was talking about. Because in a way, and I’m going to be totally honest in a way, I feel like school The structure conditions kids out of that joy and happiness, like it, you know, like sit down in a structured classroom, you go through all these classes, you’re not learning necessarily, at least in the public system, you’re not really learning how to focus on your joys and passions.

You have like a specific structured. And so for the students to say, Oh, I can be happy again. I can tap into that joy that was always within me. I think it’s [00:29:00] pretty powerful.

Ben Painter: And another, another thing is just, you know, this, this generation is up against unique conditions that no other generation has been up against before when it comes to COVID, but also when it comes to tech.

Yeah. No other generation has had. Anywhere near this level of sophistication when it comes to companies and phones, really effectively using sophisticated algorithms to try to distract and nab attention and keep young people distracted and on their devices. And so I think there’s also something to be said about now more than ever having it be part of the educational experience to cultivate autonomy over your own attention.

As a way to just resist the forces that are really harming young people, [00:30:00] the data is is clear and becoming more and more clear that social media in particular is just destroying young people’s mental health. And so, you know, we can. We can bank on social media being regulated, but I think also at the same time, there has to be a cultural pushback led by young people.

And our system should be supporting young people in figuring out a more healthy way to relate, to relate to tech.

Gissele Taraba: I’d love that. You just said that is the thing that popped into my mind is, you know, when you look at tech, tech is moving so quickly. Information moves so quickly. I don’t know if you’re on TikTok, but the information that just comes at people constantly all the time and you’re open to millions of people in all of their information and people don’t listen to the news anymore.

so the subjects that they’re teaching in school. Are pretty outdated considering it takes so long to change a curriculum, you know, it takes months, like as a university prof, like contract. [00:31:00] And for that, for you to do a curriculum, it takes about eight months. Think about AI in eight months. Like, I don’t think so.

It’s like, it’s already outdated. So the fundamental thing that kids will lead to learn is about managing themselves. Managing their minds, managing their hearts, emotional regulation to, like you said, choosing where they put their energy and attention. That’s what school needs to be rather than it be here.

Some subjects that you can Google probably tell you about in like 2 seconds. It could literally search the entire internet and tell you what the answer is. If we don’t need that anymore. So what is school supposed to be? And I think that’s, this is the conversation, which is, is about managing ourselves and managing our minds and hearts.

And I think that’s how we’re going to really create changes in culture. And I think [00:32:00] this is where young people in, in, I do honestly believe that things happen for a reason. I think things are by design, so I think the whole covid situation is as a world. We needed to shake up.

The systems were outdated. It doesn’t work. And so I think, you know, and when you were talking about implementing your initiative, as as difficult as it might have been, you also said that people wouldn’t have been probably as receptive had it not been so urgent. Right and so, but it, it allowed something that is so, so critical and important to be implemented for students that needed it at the time.

Time that needed it the most and now obviously gaining momentum. And so I think that is so, so important, especially the, the, the leadership of young people. What’s your dream? Like, how big do you want to go?

Ben Painter: My, my dream is that mindfulness would be considered an integral part of what it means to be educated at scale.

And

and that, yeah. And that going back to kind of how we [00:33:00] started the conversation, just the notion of school and the systems of school would be. redesigned to really center the needs of young people and the world that they’re inheriting and a rethinking of, Hey, what, what do we think young people should know?

Yeah, yeah. That’s, that’s the dream.

Gissele Taraba: young

Ben Painter: people would, would, would leave school equipped to face these and work through these. Global challenges that are increasingly global, not just local with clarity and compassion and effective communication and

Yeah, that they can keep going, keep advancing, but you know, evolution of human consciousness is the dream.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. [00:34:00] it’s a wonderful dream. And, and not like a dream dream as in like, Oh, this is a dream. Maybe someday I do think that beyond any other time in human awareness, we are at the precipice of being able to, because things are shifting so much and so fast.

And so. like you said, this is really a time for us to really ask ourselves, what do we want kids to know? Like, what sort of humans are we creating? What kind of human consciousness are we creating? Because everything that we have done up till now, when you think about the school systems, and I don’t know your experiences in the school system.

Mine were varied and I’m I have numerous degrees. And so, I mean, I was the perpetual student, but there was lots of downsides. And I see it now in my kids. And I’m kind of at a point where I’m like, I don’t know what to tell my kids, to be honest, because they don’t have, like, In your beautiful schools, a mindfulness director, that would be amazing.

They don’t, we talk to them about [00:35:00] mindfulness. We talk to them about compassion. We talk to them about loving themselves and therefore being the vehicle to love other people. But sometimes I don’t listen to us cause they’re like, Oh, what do you know? You’re just old. Whereas like. If it’s a, I have a 17 year old and a 14 year old, so they’re like, you know, like you kind of dropped off the coolness chart and you know, now they’re like, oh, because to be honest, it’s a natural evolution for children to want to do things completely opposite to their parents because they need to figure it out for themselves.

So I think it’s wonderful. I think it’s great that my kids are doing that. The only thing we can do is just offer things on the table and say, okay, this is what we believe is what our perception, but in my ideal bubble world, in terms of school system, I want them to be taught by the best. What I mean is I want them to be.

Exposed to the most compassionate, the most loving, the most mindful, the most peaceful, the most [00:36:00] abundant, the most successful. Right. And so for that to be open to any child.

So the, your program is really only to elementary schools or are you planning on expanding beyond the other educational systems?

Ben Painter: No, we have a pre k to university.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, okay. That’s good to know. That’s good to know. Cause I only assumed for some reason that it was elementary. I don’t know why I thought

Ben Painter: that. We have the whole gamut.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, that’s good. So my Americans listeners who partner up with your school, especially if you’ve got mindfulness experience and then go out and apply.

Ben Painter: Yeah. Check us out. And before. Before I forget, just thinking about your kids I don’t know if they’d be into this at all. But when I was their age ish, I went on these, there are the, there’s this organization called Inward Bound Mindfulness. Have you heard of that?

Gissele Taraba: No.

Ben Painter: They basically run meditation retreats for young people.

Meditation retreat slash camp. It’s kind of like [00:37:00] you’re meditating or doing meditation esque things, mindful movement and things like that for about five hours a day, but then you’re also playing. Kickball and oh,

Gissele Taraba: okay. That’s cool. Yeah. .

Ben Painter: Yeah, it’s, and those. Retreats are truly amazing. They haven’t made like some of the, you know, most esteemed teachers out there crawl out of the woodworks because they want to work with young people.

Gissele Taraba: And that’s beautiful.

Ben Painter: Yeah. Just couldn’t recommend it enough. I’ll check it

Gissele Taraba: I would say that my kids would give me the face, right? Especially my son. My son is so into electronics. We were just having a conversation about it this week. Because it’s a form of socialization, right?

All of his friends go on it and they go on it for hours. Like me, we tell them you have to live a balanced life. So you have to go outside, you have to do this. You have to join sportsBut for parents that are busy, for parents that are just trying to make it themselves, like it’s very easy for them to go into that kind of community.

But there is a form of [00:38:00] socialization like these sorts of kids. So how can we potentially incorporate. moments of mindfulness and not make that wrong. Right. Do you know what I’m saying? Like how, how do we enable kids to find the balance so that then as they start to see the difference in how they feel, cause they get an immediate hit from these electronics.

Ben Painter: We all do. I do.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. And in the beginning, when I started meditating, I was practicing mindfulness. It felt really gritty and terrible, but over time, it’s just one of the most beautiful things you can do is like meditate and be in the present moment. It just feels like, Oh, amazing.

Ben Painter: I was just going to say, but it doesn’t always feel like that right away. That’s, that’s the tricky part.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Ben Painter: On retreats, sometimes I find the first couple days really difficult. It’s like going through withdrawal or something from the attention, having so much juicy stuff to land on and bounce around in.

It’s [00:39:00] like, and just like, okay, I’m going to be a spaciousness. And then you settle in after a few days and then it’s like, oh yeah, I remember, I remember why I do this. But. Yeah. So it makes that’s a challenge in introducing this stuff to young people.

Gissele Taraba: And so thank you for mentioning, because I think that’s very important.

It’s not just for young people, though, because I remember experiencing that myself. I went to this it’s sort of, it was sort of like a silent retreat at a, a monastery. And I was, for some reason, separated from my husband and my friend, like, I was put at a separate. Building, I guess I was supposed to be paired with someone else, but I just ended up being me

So I wasn’t sleeping very well. I don’t know. That brought up a whole bunch of things for me. And so the first 2 days, like you said, I, first of all, I was on no sleep and they would wake us up like at 6 or 5 o’clock in the morning to meditate and listen to the monks chant. And I literally by the 2nd day wanted to throw the book at somebody, but I kind of started to breathe through it.

And then, like you [00:40:00] said, it was. Amazing. I didn’t even want to leave. Then you start to be so present with yourself how did the mindfulness directors help people get over that hump? Like what’s, what’s usually the conversation with young people or maybe even some of the adults about how to, to navigate those difficult moments?

Ben Painter: It’s a cool question. mindfulness directors have varying strategies.

Gissele Taraba: How do you manage it?

Ben Painter: Yeah, I’ll riff on like what I’m, how I would think about that. I think one of the primary ones is to make it optional.

If you’re

mandating that people meditate and it’s like you have to, then that’s just not the best way to introduce it to people.

So some of our mindfulness directors will have a thing where it’s like, Hey, we’re going to be meditating. It’s mandated that you are respectful and don’t interfere with other people. [00:41:00] Love it. But if you don’t want to meditate, no problem. Yeah. I think that’s one there’s not like a force or coercion.

It’s an offering that people can take or not.

Gissele Taraba: I love that.

Ben Painter: Then I think there’s like. Myth busting, you know, there’s so many conceptions and misconceptions of mindfulness floating around out there. One is that you have to be in a very certain posture in a beautiful idyllic place and your mind has to be blank and thoughts are the enemy.

So there’s like a good amount of myth busting and re re myth busting that has to happen again and again. Because one of the most common things you’ll hear is that, Oh, I’m not good at mindfulness. It’s not for me.

Gissele Taraba: I’m not good at meditating. Yeah.

Ben Painter: Yeah. And then there’s like offering a variety of different practices [00:42:00] that can help people establish their relationship with their present moment experience.

And for everyone, it’s not going to be eyes closed, sitting down meditation. It might be like, especially with younger folks, younger students, our mindfulness directors. will take other activities and make them a mindfulness exercise. So we have this one mindfulness director, that’s a hybrid gym teacher and mindfulness director and leading gym games and people are moving, having a fun time.

And then there’s moments of pausing. It’s like, all right, check in. How are you relating to your experience? What energy is flowing through you right now? How does your body feel? Okay, back to the game. And, you know, so getting creative and figuring out what’s going to work for the specific culture. And then I think there’s also ways where tapping into the whatever struggles, the young people are facing and offering mindfulness within the context of [00:43:00] Text of helping address those things.

So if students are facing a lot of test anxiety, you can kind of point mindfulness at that. If students are wanting to improve their athletic performance, that that’s a door to getting curious about your mind and how it works. And that’s a great door that works for a lot of people. So there’s also those, you know, mixing up the doorways.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, that’s thank you very much. That was great. And as, as you were talking it, it occurred to me how often we don’t teach like young people about themselves. Like we teach about the body as like a 3d here’s your brain. Here’s a, but they don’t really get to know themselves. Like, who are you as a person?

I did an assignment with my young people and I said so think about all your identities. Then from that place, who are you? Then try to strip yourself from your identities. Then who are [00:44:00] you? And it was like, some of those, some of their brains exploded. Some of them were like, I can’t compute. I’m a robot.

I don’t exist. I’m like, okay, cool. Like, there was just some interesting answers, but there’s so little self awareness, like understanding. Who are you as a being? Like, who is this person? How does my body work? Like all of those things. And how does my mind work and how do they work together? And I think that’s the gift that mindfulness brings to it’s becoming aware in that for me, mindfulness just kind of opens the door to compassion and love, which is if you don’t mind what I’d like to talk about next, because it’s present moment awareness on how you’re feeling.

Ben Painter: And so how has mindfulness potentially helped the students become more in touch with their self compassion, self love possibly? That’s a cool question.

I think the takeaway is that you can [00:45:00] cultivate what you want to cultivate. In your mind,

and,

You know, depending on who you talk to and what tradition mindfulness can have a very, very specific definition or it’s an umbrella term for a large swath of contemplative practices.

But

here in the United States, at least like something like a loving kindness practice or a self compassion practice would fall under the general term of mindfulness.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. And

Ben Painter: so yeah, doing practices that help one rest in the present moment and then cultivate compassion, love, empathy for herself and others, I think are, are great.

Gissele Taraba: in my experience. The way that mindfulness really helped me cultivate compassion was I wasn’t aware of how much I was suffering. I wasn’t aware of how I was treating myself with my thoughts. I wasn’t aware of what I was creating, [00:46:00] but it wasn’t until I got fully present with myself and accepted full responsibility for what I have, what I continue to create.

Like I’m not responsible for the people that have hurt me, but I was responsible for continuing to hurt myself. But without the present moment awareness, I wouldn’t have been aware of what I was choosing and then could therefore choose something different, potentially. And I think that’s where mindfulness, at least for me has been really instrumental.

And even checking in with my body, as you were saying, checking in with, you know, where am I holding the tension? Where am I, you know, what’s happening for me in this moment and what do I need? In order for me to then be able to listen with an open heart to Ben or to someone else, or to be able to forgive or have a difficult conversation.

And so that’s why from, from my perspective, what you’re doing is so, so instrumental. And I really, really do hope that it expands as big as bold as you are desiring. It

Ben Painter: makes me think of [00:47:00] one metaphor that I really love, which is and hopefully it’ll resonate as a Canadian. Which is like this metaphor.

It’s like a sledding metaphor.

Gissele Taraba: A what? A sledding. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Ben Painter: Sledding metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, you know, like when you go sledding and you go in the same track again and again, and each time you go in it, the grooves get a little deeper and it gets more automatic. Like you don’t have to steer the sled anymore.

It just, and you know, our minds kind of work like that.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Ben Painter: Or, you know, every time you look in the mirror, a thought stream comes up about, Oh, I wish I looked a little different or you’re to this or you’re to that. Or every time you see that person, the, these unconscious stories we have about them because of the way they look, dress, talk, act, whatever play out and we don’t even know we’re in the track.

It’s just happening. What mindfulness. And help us do, and this also relates to like, [00:48:00] love, compassion, and proving school cultures. It can give us a bit more of a bird’s eye view so we can see what’s happening. And maybe we’ll make the choice to stay right in the track. Or maybe we’ll make the choice to find a new one, but without the choice, the track will just keep, the trenches will just keep getting deeper and

Gissele Taraba: deeper.

Yeah. And I love that you said that because from my perspective, curiosity is the stepping stone to compassion, like without judgment, just like you say, okay, I can continue to choose to go on the same track or I can make a different choice. And it’s a place of non judgment that I think is really opens us up to that.

I’ve got a couple more questions before we wrap up. The first one is I’m asking all my guests what’s your definition of unconditional love?

Ben Painter: Oh, cool. The word like unconditional, what it brings to mind to me is that you love them regardless of what they do which to me maybe gets to, [00:49:00] you love something

about them that is deeper. Or then even like the more surface level things it’s, it’s like an unchanging love of, who they are underneath all the stuff,

All the changing stuff and all the ways that we might mess up or lose our way.

Gissele Taraba: Thank you for that. I was wondering if you could tell the audience where they can find you, where they could potentially apply, like, you know, what are you working on?

What do you want to share with the audience?

Ben Painter: I would say, yeah, we can check us out at wholeschoolmindfulness. org. And we also have not super active social media, but they exist on all the, you know, normal ones and yeah, a few different ways of entry for partnering with us. If you’re a person in a school who [00:50:00] this sounds like your dream job, check us out and navigate to the, become a mindfulness director tab and fill out the form.

So you get that email blast when the applications open up, if you’re a school leader or a district leader, and you’re hearing. This, and you think that this might be a strategy that you want to try out also on our website or reach out to us on the contact page for partnership. And then lastly, if you’re hearing this and it sounds like something that you might want to support philanthropically we are largely dependent on philanthropy to, to make this work happen, which I think is normal.

Like private philanthropy oftentimes catalyzes. Change that then is taken over by public funds, but philanthropy is the tip of the spear for getting this stuff going. So, if you want to partner with us, we’re always happy to, yeah, make good use of [00:51:00] funds.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, for sure. And are you available to support anyone who you know, anyone in Canada who might be interested or maybe internationally who might want to reach out and say, hey, how do we do this?

Can we partner with you guys? So that we can find out and make this more of a global initiative.

Ben Painter: Yeah, right now, we would have to go through some legal hurdles and in order to be a 501c3 working internationally. It’s just a different thing. We haven’t done that yet, but always game to hop on a call. To partner.

Yeah.

Gissele Taraba: You heard it. You can at least get a phone call. Yeah. Thank you so, so much, Ben, for all the amazing work that you’re doing. And for taking the time out to chat with us about this very, very important conversation about the need for mindfulness in the school, especially the role of a mindfulness director.

And please join us again for another episode of the loving compassion podcast with Giselle. See you [00:52:00] soon.

Ben Painter: Yeah. Thanks, Gissele. That was such a cool conversation.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, thank you so much.

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TRANSCRIPT

Gissele overdub: [00:00:00]

Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Giselle. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. On today’s podcast, we’ll be talking about forgiving one’s enemy.

CARSA, Christian Action for Reconciliation and Social Assistance Organization, is doing some incredible work. They’re bringing together victims and oppressors for conversation. Carsa Ministries serves communities in supporting their journey towards healing, forgiveness, reconciliation, and sustainable holistic development.

Please join me in welcoming Carsa Ministries Executive Director, Christophe Mbonyingabo did I say it right?

Christophe: It

Gissele overdub: was. Welcome, Christophe. Welcome to the show. Thank you.

Christophe: Thank you very much. I’m glad to be with you today.

Gissele overdub: Yes, I am so excited to speak with you [00:01:00] because I believe that the work that you’re doing is so, so important.

Right now the world, It just seems so divided whether it be a, a long political divisions or among like this, even people, people canceling one another. So I think right now organizations that are working to bring people together, I think matter so greatly. Can you tell us a little bit about how this organization got started?

Christophe: Thank you very much. CARSA itself is a Rwandan based organization that started just 10 years after the genocide against the Tutsi means 2000 and close to 2004. That’s when we got registered by the government of Rwanda and CARSA started as a local grassroots initiative to try to restore the brokenness.

That has resulted from the genocide but alsopeople have to remember that the genocide did not start [00:02:00] in 1994 and the genocide did not end in 1994 because prior to 1994, there had been a long. era of division, you know, hatred and ideology that’s led to the 1994 genocide,

It was so huge consequences as a result of the genocide that’s needed to be addressed from various aspects. To try to contribute to see if forgiveness, reconciliation, restoration was possible. So that’s how CARSA gets started. And since then, about 20 years now, we’ve been, you know, trying to do that mission, which is very difficult, but exciting.

Gissele overdub: What you said is so critical because it didn’t start straight into genocide. It started with division and separation and the division between these two groups and seeing each other as enemies and not as brothers and sisters. And then that contributed too. So I think this is an important lesson for people to understand that it’s not [00:03:00] just about minor conflict.

It’s about this othering that results in then greater separation and greater conflict. And then you kind of have this division and genocide between these groups, right?

Christophe: Sure. You know, you know sometimes when people learn about the genocide that took place in Rwanda and they learned how within a hundred days, a million people were killed and killed by their neighbors, their friends, the people they knew.

If you do numbers, it was not what was happening, but if you tried to do numbers, it’s as if every second. Yeah. Six people were being killed. So people don’t have their mind around us. It’s very difficult to even understand how that can be possible. And remember it was a brutal killings because it was done using traditional weapons.

So people ask questions, how can this happen? Explain, but they tend to [00:04:00] forget that’s actually what happened as the killing of the genocide was a result of decades of brainwashing, hatred, division, and all of that. That’s why when you go through and try to understand the 10 stages of the genocide, then you understand better.

It doesn’t come just one day, one year. It’s, it’s a long journey. And, and that, that’s, that’s the same issue happening today in different parts of the world.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. And this is why it’s so important to learn from Rwanda and to learn from the work that you’re doing so that people understand that it’s not just about this division.

It’s not just about like this, like what they consider minor conflict is that it starts to separate us from each other. And then we see each other as enemies. And like you said, people turn like neighbors, friends. So the work that you’re doing is, is. Bringing together individuals, especially like what they call victim and what they call perpetrators together.

And, and that’s incredible to be able to [00:05:00] do that, especially after the genocide. What steps do you take individuals towards this sort of extraordinary journey?

Christophe: Yes you know, generally, when we talk about forgiveness, it is a very difficult concept to apply. And that’s generally you think of when, you know, I always give this example for married couples.

When wife and husband are well together, they love each other, called each other beautiful names, you know, but when there is something happening between them, then you understand how forgiving it’s very difficult to apply. Why? First of all, because it doesn’t come easily from the human nature. When we have experienced any sort of harm, abuse, whatever we tend, our, the first tendency is to wish to revenge ourselves.

But also you think from the, you know, [00:06:00] offender, the quick answer is to deny is to justify. And so now we are talking not just a minor issue. We are talking about the context where genocide survivors had lost their family members. And their children, spouses, siblings, parents, and now these people have been killed, not by strangers, but by neighbors, by friend, by in laws, by people they hoped that they would support them.

It means there’s not only the killings that has took place, but also there’s a sort of like it’s sort of like. Feeling that you’ve been disappointed in a sense, but also betrayed because these were the friends , you hope they’ve gone to support. So now when we talk about post genocide forgiveness, people need first to understand that concept and background.

So the steps that we [00:07:00] take people through at CARSA. We always start with a conversation, which is structured into what we call trauma healing workshop, and we start by explaining the participant genocide survivors for them to understand the need to move towards their individual their personal their inner healing, first of all, so we don’t quickly talk about forgiveness.

Also, then we get to the level where we start talking about forgiveness as one of the steps to what complete individual healing. And so when we talk about forgiveness, first of all, we, we make the participant, the survivors to understand what is forgiveness and what forgiveness is not.

Gissele overdub: Can you share what, what, what it is not ? Yes. What is, what is forgiveness? Not

Christophe: forgiveness is not forgetting. That’s first of all, [00:08:00] forgiveness. Does it not necessarily means reconciliation? Because when you talk about forgiveness, people say, do you want me to meet the other person? Do you want me to talk to the other person?

No. But thirdly, forgiveness doesn’t mean necessarily you ignore justice if it needs to happen. So when they understand those, those three definition of what forgiveness is not, it’s not forgetting. It doesn’t take away justice, but also it’s not necessarily reconciliation. Then people can listen. The second step it’s when we start explaining to them the benefit of forgiveness towards themselves.

Forgiveness benefits the victim before it benefits the offender or the perpetrator. And the third step is when we explain the burden of unforgiveness, you know, forgiveness is a very difficult concept. As I said earlier, [00:09:00] it’s very costly to forgive, but unforgiveness cost more at the end.

So when these people have understood the benefit, when they have understood the cost of unforgiveness to themselves, it’s like, you know, unforgiveness, it’s like you are locked in the room and you’ve got the key to make yourself get out. No one can do that. And then you choose to lock yourself in the room, thinking that’s the one who have locked you in the room is going to suffer.

Gissele overdub: That’s true. Yeah. I can ask a question. How do you know if you’ve truly forgiven? there may be times when you think, oh, I’ve forgiven, but then maybe something comes up. I don’t know if you can answer that, but just curious.

Christophe: You know, we have a program where we take genocide survivors and genocide perpetrators who are on the journey of reconciliation to speak to young people in schools.

And [00:10:00] then, in one conference, we call them peace conferences, a young student asked to a genocide victim who had shared the story, how he had forgiven the perpetrator, had killed the mother, they were all together and asked, ask it. What will happen to you today if this man, the perpetrator, whom you say were forgiven after killing your mother, if he does something today to you, what are you going to do again?

He said, the answer was, I have forgiven him the difficult crime. Why can’t I forgive him, you know, from the minor crime or whatever you do to me today. So, when, how do you know that you are forgiven? First of all, it’s when you remember with less bitterness. Then you know you are on the journey of forgiveness.

Secondly, it’s when you remember, but you don’t wish bad to the offender. [00:11:00] You don’t wish to revenge. You don’t wish to see the same thing happening to you to have to happen to the, to the, to the offender. Then you know, you’re in the journey of forgiveness. It’s, it’s when, when you remember your experience or your experiences, but you are able to share that As an experience, but with, with less body, with less, you know, width emotionally and psychologically, then, you know, you’re in the journey of forgiveness, but finally it’s when you think about the offender, the perpetrator, and it doesn’t come with the mess and the combination of the crime.

It’s when anyone, in other words, it’s when you are able to separate the crime and the perpetrator.

Gissele overdub: Oof. That is so, so powerful. Yeah. I think, yeah. [00:12:00] I really resonate with what you said. Yeah. Your organization, you mentioned the peacekeeping piece has four major pillars. It has trauma and recovery and reconciliation, peace building, economic development, And Youth Leadership, when you take it all together, that’s really well thought out because it’s not just about reconciliation.

You’re really thinking about why oppression happens. Like why do genocides happen? Why do people, why are they more apt to hurt each other? Why are each of those pillars important?

Christophe: Yeah, thank you. You’ve, you’ve well described that it’s the four pillars are very interconnected, because again, we have to put them in the context of the Genocide in Rwanda, , the one that and look at them as, as a very holistic journey.

So each, each of the four pillars. You know, it’s a step [00:13:00] or it’s a pillar that’s, that’s really without it, the journey we’re not, would be incomplete. The trauma recovery and reconciliation focuses more on the past, where we want to deal with the past. means we’re inviting genocide survivors, genocide perpetrators to actually sit at the table and think about their past and how that past have harmed them and affected them, but also how they can now deal with it and, and move into the future.

Then moving towards peace building. We think of the young generation, 20, 30 years after the genocide, we have the whole generation of people actually now, statistically, 65 percent of the whole population of Rwanda are people under the age of 30 years old.

Gissele overdub: Basically, this whole generation

Christophe: of people did not witness the genocide, could not explain the genocide, but the second generation.[00:14:00]

They learn about the history, either from, you know, government, from schools, but also from their parents. They have different narratives. But secondly, if, as a country, we have made a step toward peace and reconciliation, how do we ensure that that process will be sustainable? It’s when we invite the young people at the table.

For instance, under the Peace Building, we have a program we call Peace Conversation Cycles. It’s a project. And this one It’s when we invite adults, means genocide survivors and perpetrators, young people, and those that we call the rescuers. Rescuers are people whom during the genocide were courageous enough to to hide the Tuts who were being hunted and be killed, even though they were coming from the so called the Hutu by then, and they were courageous to hide them.

So they are recognized by the government, they are recognized in the communities, we call them the rescuers. So [00:15:00] those three categories, we bring them in the table, in the room from the same community, and they start talking. And here, young people now are learning the history, not as, as a countrywide, but From their community.

They ask questions. How was your relationship before the genocide? What happened during the genocide? And how are you resolving or restoring relations after the genocide? How do we dream together for the future, a shared future? Why? Because we want to make sure that this young generation grasps the importance of reconciliation, peace building, but also so that they understand their role to play to sustain the peace that we are enjoying today as a nation.

very much. Then we go to the economic development, economic empowerment. Rwanda as a nation, after the genocide, the government has been taking, you know, the population into what we call the socio economic transformation. [00:16:00] But also remember, poverty has played an important role during the genocide. Some years back, we did a study, was very quantitative study.

We wanted to understand What actually made the normal human, you know, the genocidias to become killers. And throughout the interviews, we discovered that some people were involved in genocide because they were told if you kill Tutsi, you will get their properties, you will get their cows, you will get all of that.

So means poverty has a role somehow, you know, contributing in the cause of the genocide. But then look at the poor genocide process. We have genocides victims who had not only lost their beloved one and their properties. cows and houses, but they had lost hope because of the trauma. So when they recover from the trauma, they regain also their hope for the future.[00:17:00]

So they need to work because now they have a sense and the meaning of they understand the sense of the meaning of life. But on the other side, we have genocidal perpetrators who have been in the prison for 10, 15 years. They are restored back in the society. They are integration, but they need to work hard Maybe to try to catch up on the 10, 15 years lost in the prisons.

So that’s why economic empowerment, economic development is a very important pillar if we want to move toward sustainable peace and reconciliation. And finally, youth leadership or youth empowerment. You know, Leadership matters in anything when you talk about the vision, when we talk about the political I mean, ideologies and or sort of like what we see in the world today, just one single leader.

A speech of [00:18:00] one leader changes the history of U. S.

That’s why it’s very critical to educate our young people. That’s when you become leaders, you need to understand what leadership means and the influence of leaders to society and communities and be leaders, not for your own sake, your own benefit, but be a unifying leader, a united leader, a leader who sees.

It’s a vision of, of bringing people together, not a leader who’s divide people. So that’s why all the four pillars are very critical, very important to us.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. And that is so, so powerful. And as I said, very well thought out because you’re hitting some of the major things. Number one is like you’re teaching the young people to critically think.

So you can say to people that you’re a democracy, but if you don’t behave like a democracy. And maybe you’re not a democracy you’re talking about the power of conversation. People aren’t talking anymore. They’re just [00:19:00] cancelling each other. They’re just like, well, I’m done with you. I don’t need to talk.

But having those difficult conversations is really pivotal. And the last thing is really like, One of the things I’ve learned in my experiences and talking to people on my podcast is that when people are in survival whether it be their physical body or whether it be economically, they can’t think about love and compassion and reconciliation and seeing somebody else as the, as a brother and sister.

They see people as others because they’re too busy surviving. So what you are doing is you’re helping them shift out of that survival mode by helping them with their economic development so that they then can be open. to talking about how to create a world that is more united, and I think that’s so powerful.

I do have a question though. How do you get the people that have acted as perpetrators to address their shame so that they can have those conversations? because [00:20:00] In my experiences, I’ve seen people really get very defensive or deny. How do you help them get to the other side of that so that they can be able to engage in the dialogue and listen with an open heart?

Christophe: That’s, that’s a good question. And as I agree with you how to when we all think about post violence, post genocide in the context of Rwanda, post conflict there’s a tendency which comes from the human nature to wish to focus more on the survivors, which, which makes sense because, you know, there’s, that’s, you know, empathy, that’s, you know, easily comes in. . The journey of perpetrators, it’s, it’s, it’s really a very difficult journey because when you have committed a crime such as the genocide, when you have been involved in murdering people that you knew and innocent people, Like psychologically, to even recover and understand [00:21:00] and come back to the normal sense of humanity, it takes time.

So, but in the context of Rwanda, we’ve got people after their sentences, they thought we’ve done our sentence, we’ve paid the price for our crime. Why do you want us to come in the conversation? So it has, it has been a long journey with different stages and steps. Because first of all, After the genocide, the government of Rwanda taught how to deal with justice, but a very destructive justice system.

That’s, we enable, first of all, the truth to be revealed and to be told, but secondly, maybe to create an opportunity from which perpetrators can relate with survivors after they would have known the truth. So that’s when there was the, what called the Gachacha (Restorative Justice) Courts, which basically it’s called the, you know, the court from the grass.

It’s where you invite [00:22:00] community members all coming together and you invite the perpetrator and the victim to stand there and you listen, you hear their case. But also every committee member has a say, you know, can say, raise their hands and contribute to that. So when that happens, first of all, genocide suspected people in the prisons were encouraged to come forward, speak the truth, accept their involvement in their crimes, so that their sentence would be reduced.

Initially, they did not believe so. They did not believe that was true. But through the government, you know, encouragement and Teachings, they, they start coming forward, accepting, acknowledging their crime and asking for forgiveness, like confessing, not asking, but confessing. And then they came out to go through the Gachacha court in the community.

So then whoever was [00:23:00] truthful and in the community by the committee member, they will say this person has been truthful in what they said and has been remorseful. So the sentence got reduced, then these people came back in the society live side by side with the victims. Now, yes, you’ve come out of the prison.

But the question is, are you truly free or you still deal with the inner prisons? Because you can be out of the four walls, like the physical prisons, but still psychologically live in the prison. And so when we approach them and we invite them, so as cursor they now they know, maybe there’s an opportunity to deal with the psychological prison that we’ve been dealing with after we were out of the physical prison.

So that’s how we start with these people. However, [00:24:00] remember that. One of the reasons why these people committed genocide, it was propaganda. It was all the many years prior to the genocide. They did what they believed was the right thing to be done.

Gissele overdub: So when we did,

Christophe: yes, when we thought we are killing the enemy, we are taking, we are whipping out the enemy and you can live well without that.

So now when they come and meet the survivor and hear and learn how they are, crime have created huge consequences to the victims. We have experienced that through research. We did release a survey, their self forgiveness decreases. Because now they understand. Initially they thought, yes, we’ve done evil, but You know, we had no choice in a sense, but now when they learn, when they approach and they see it and they understand, they listen from the survivor, they hear the huge [00:25:00] devastation, the huge effect they have caused to the victim, then the self forgiveness decreases.

So that’s why we have what we call like the workshop, but also have what we call the concession cell groups. Why? Because that’s where the conversation continue in the, at the community level, at the village level. And then the perpetrators. Now, they are able to then ask for forgiveness, truly confess. And sometime they say, I don’t deserve forgiveness because what I’ve done to use it.

It’s unimaginable. It’s unhuman, but please. Forgive me. So that’s when they hear and they see the responses from the survive from the survivor from the victims, then that’s when they get it from their shame and their guilt. So what we have learned here is this. You know, sort of like, you know, punitive justice, [00:26:00] you know, we have today, the criminal justice systems, we see today, where a perpetrator is put behind the bar sentence for 1020 years, the victim or the survivor stays in the community, some type of no help over limited help, and these people never come together.

The question always ask people who benefit from that justice. Who’s benefiting from that?

Gissele overdub: I spoke to a friend of mine. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Christophe: Yes. No, no, go ahead.

Gissele overdub: I was going to share the fact that I have a friend who does compassion in the prison system work. And that’s what she had said to me. She said, you know, we’re doing, we’re asking these.

prisoners to do a Herculean effort of trying to be more loving and compassionate and understand the impact of their behavior when you, we put them in prison, separate them from everyone and put and surround them with people that have the same mentality. So how is it that they’re going to get there? It really is through that what you were [00:27:00] talking about, the reconciliation, the, the, the community going back and facing the impact of those, the behavior from the place of compassion of like, Hey, this is the impact.

I think that’s really what gets people to change. And so I agree with you it that those, these systems don’t benefit anyone. In fact, it’s sort of a cycle of you go back and then you, you loop back and commit another crime. So it’s not helping anyone.

Christophe: There’s no, there’s no better way I can say it. Than what have what you’ve said.

It’s exactly that. Yeah. And, and I’m talking from very practical point of view, like the only way to take away the, the, the guilt and the shame from any perpetrator. It’s actually to allow the perpetrator to see, to meet and to hear from the survivor, the victim. Even if the anger, expressing, the anger, expressing the bitterness toward the, the perpetrator.

People want to know. And to hear from their victims of how [00:28:00] they are feeling from their crime. At least that’s, if that’s not

Gissele overdub: there,

Christophe: people die with their, they are guilty.

Gissele overdub: I completely agree, completely. Can you talk about Cows for Peace and how this idea came about? Because just based on your documentary, so, so significant.

And so I want you to share it a little bit with my audience.

Christophe: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the Cow for Peace program is a CARSA sort of like creative initiative that we started. Now it’s actually becoming, people have done a few research around that and we are working on making that sort of like, for instance, once I was in Chicago and people asked me in their context, like, what is the cow in our context?

I say, I don’t know, you need to figure out what that is. Anyway, how did it start? You know, when we started bringing together Genocide Survivors and Perpetrators and using a [00:29:00] seven day workshop program that we have, at the end, we thought, this is just A beginning of long, a long process. We cannot expect or assume that seven days of conversation is enough to deal with this deep issue.

So then that’s when the second stage came, what we callresilience or reconciliation cell groups where these people at the village level, they meet on a regular basis. It’s locally led. They elect their own leader and, you know, we only support the continue. So when that’s happened initially. Yes, they started meeting, but it was not sustainable.

Then we started thinking, how do we make this really in a great collaborative journey? That’s people we want to commit for a long time. So that’s when we thought maybe if we find a common interest, a shared interest, that’s we bound these people together. You know, [00:30:00] that’s, we probably help them to, to stay in the journey and do the process.

That’s how the cow came in mind. And then when the cow came into mind, I remember we started with one cow. Just one cow. Because we had these people, two people. One was called John and Chantal. John was the perpetrator, Chantal the survivor. And they took a long journey for Chantal to forgive John. And then when Chantal was able to forgive John, welcoming John to his family, to her family, her house.

You know, really express forgiveness. Then we thought, how do we make this sustainable? The cow idea came in mind, and we gave the cow to share. So when we start observing them, and then we start even remembering what the cow mean in our context, in our culture. First of all, historically, cows have been used by the Germans to divide the Rwandans.

That’s historically, historically, because when the Belgian [00:31:00] divided the Rwandans, what they call the ethnicity Hutu and Tutsi, initially they said, whoever had 10, 000 above is Tutsi and whoever had less than 10, Hutu. So people could shift from one group to the other. That’s historical. It’s ridiculous. You have to remember that.

Yeah, you can read it’s, it’s out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then this cow had been used initially to divide the Rwanda. That’s one. But secondly, cow has a different meaning in our culture. It has a very cultural meaning whereby when we, we are married, when someone want to marry, we pay Dowry. And the Dowry, it’s a cow.

Even in the city where people no longer have the cows, they pay money, but they still call the cow. So it’s, it’s there, but thirdly, culturally. Cow, it’s, it’s a sign used to be a sign of wealthy and dignity in the community. Whoever had a cow will no longer be considered as a [00:32:00] poor. Why? Because of the significance and the value and that’s cows bring the family at the family level.

But fourthly, cows, it’s the animal that’s produced milk in our context and milk is very nutritional drink, but also it’s, it’s a source of income. So it becomes at one side, it’s, it’s very. Social, cultural, and, you know, animal that has a unique meaning. That’s when they, this cow is given to these two people to raise it together, collaboratively raise the cow together.

It’s the number one, helps the people to meet on a regular basis. because they raise the cow. Secondly, involve their families because the children will be involved in that. And the spouses. And thirdly, when they start sharing the milk and how the neighbors seeing these former enemies now visiting each other to raise the cow.

People believe [00:33:00] because now the forgiveness is no longer theoretical. It’s practical. You cannot share with your enemy a drink such as the milk. You cannot invite an enemy to come and milk the cow at your house and share the milk. You cannot give a cow to your enemy. So the forgiveness becomes tangible and real.

And that’s why it becomes extreme forgiveness because they are sharing the cow but also remember, raising the cow up to the point when it has a calf, and the calf is grown up enough to be given to the, by the survivor to the perpetrator, it’s, it’s not less than a year, 12 months or 16 months.

And as a collaborative, they raise the cow together. There’s some conflict that arises around raising the cow together. So when they are able to solve these problems around the responsibilities of sharing the code, raising the cow together, you are actually storing their, their resilience capacity. Now, I

Gissele overdub: was [00:34:00]

Christophe: It’s not just the conflict around the genocide, but now normal conflict that we all deal in our daily lives.

So that’s resilience capacity growing around dealing with the conflict around raising the shared cow. Then it makes these people to be even prepared citizen to be peaceful community members. So the cow has become a very unique tool that have been playing in magic. extraordinary role in bringing, I mean, forgiveness and reconciliation between genocidal survivors and

Gissele overdub: perpetrators.

Oh, amazing. You know, as you were talking, Christophe, I was thinking, you know, like through your cow project, you’re actually living, Martin Luther King’s vision of love has the power to transform an enemy into a friend. Right. and what I, what I loved about your documentary is that you were talking about how the cow actually brings out issues.

It brings out whether or not people have truly forgiven and whether or not [00:35:00] truly they can come together because you were so honest in your documentary, because there was a struggle between you know, a former victim and a former perpetrator that there were, there were, there were still issues that were coming up in terms of managing the cow, right?

Like lack of trust and so on. And so I love how the cow is such a deep symbol, and it’s such a way to keep the conversation going and keep people and for people to. work together and see a unifying force because I think that’s the struggle. And that’s why the division is people don’t see what the, what the common humanity is.

But in your case, you are, you are creating that. Speaking of your documentary you talked in the documentary about how You know, many friends and families turn into enemies because of the genocide. And I wanted to ask you, this is more of a philosophical question, but what do you believe causes someone to lose their humanity?

Christophe: Yeah. You know, when we talk about losing humanity let me first say that losing [00:36:00] humanity is not just the Rwandan. Issue just based on the genocide of what happened in genocide, losing humanity, not just an African issue, where sometimes Western tend to believe that Africans are always violent and brutal.

Losing humanity is actually a global issue. And it’s, it’s across the board. It’s, it’s, you know, across race and, and religion and, and all of that. And why? I think we need first to understand why do people lose humanity? We see now, as we speak today, we see in many part of the world, innocent children, innocent women and elder people being brutally killed by guns and all sort of, you know, weapons.

And you tend to ask yourself a question, what’s going on in the mind of these people when they just shoot blindly [00:37:00] in a particular community or city or town, not thinking that people are there deserve the same life as their own people. But then you think of the division we’ve been talking about.

We live in a very diversity, diversity society, and we have so many differences. But at the same time, we have many in common, but the human nature tend to focus on the diversity and the differences than to the common. We all bleed the same blood, you know, we tell people that it’s very interesting. I wish I would ask God why he did so like we all share the same type of blood, A, B, O, and AB.

There’s no type of blood of Chinese or [00:38:00] African, black, white women. We all share that. But why do we tend to more focus on the differences? First of all, it’s the fear of the other. And the fear of the other is either created by political narratives, or ethnic or racial narratives, where we think the others are the causes of our pain, the causes of our troubles, they want to take away our benefits, and our comfort zones.

And so then we, we, we tend to create sort of like bubbles where we feel we are comfortable when we are only us versus others.

That’s, that’s first. But secondly, when you look at the stage of the genocide, It’s what we call, or they call dehumanization. Dehumanization, it’s when you take away [00:39:00] humanity out of the others, and you no longer see them as human. You see them as enemies, as in the context of Rwanda, they saw Tutsi as snakes, cockroaches, and all other names.

So that what we see today. So all the differences we have racial, religion, gender nowadays, and all of that, then we see they are no longer human because the human cannot behave that way. So when you take humanity out of the human being, of course, you kill a snake. In your mind, you’re not killing a human beings as you, you are even excited to kill a snake.

You are, you’re excited to kill this animal and why? Because you’ve taken away humanity from the other person. But secondly, when you do that, you’re also taking humanity from yourself.

And so We lose humanity when we take away humanity from others, just for our [00:40:00] own benefits, you know, or the fear of the others, or, or political propaganda that’s at all. That’s if you know, educated and all of that, then also take humanity from us because we don’t see that anymore but start gradual.

It’s division as you know, like, you know, I can’t eat with these people, I can’t talk with these people. I can’t, you know, go or my neighbors annoying. They do this. Mm-Hmm. exactly. So when we start creating division as versus them, that’s the first stage, then you go to the other stages as, as you know, it’s safe from classification, symbolization, discrimination, you know, dehumanization, then all of those, then it goes gradually.

It’s not just how something happens. In the day, you know, when we see the political differences, I mean, the political ideologies and the political lines that are more, you know, growing today. [00:41:00] Hey, we should be now more intellectual and we should have learned from the history. That’s why don’t we? Because the human nature of selfishness.

Of wanting more and as only in as only. And we forget about that so it’s, it’s really something complex.

Gissele overdub: Yeah.

Christophe: But at the same time, it’s more we lose humanity to was that we take away you might from others and we lose our humanity, then whatever we do. When we bomb somewhere, we don’t believe we are bombing, bombing to people.

We think we are only bombing to whatever you, we call them. It’s you know, all those names you put on them and they deserve that because they are evil and we forgot our own evil. And, and therefore we have lost. And that’s why we see what we saw today, why it’s just, you know, but mainly deep down, it’s the fear of the others.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. You know, in fear is [00:42:00] so like this fear and perspective of lack is really what, what we continue to choose. And I think is what’s causing all this havoc in our world. And even when you look at those people that are quote unquote. Powerful and that are dividing the world meaning that, you know, the people that show extraordinary greed and whose political agenda is to divide, they’re coming at it from a place of fear and lack.

You could be a billionaire and still be in a lot of lack because that’s what you need more and more and more and more and more. And, and the thing is, I do believe that comes from a lack of self love and a lack of, of like that. connection because you’re so separated from yourself that you do these things.

You see somebody as the other. You need to stand in and divide people so that you can get power, but that’s not true power. That’s just force. That’s not true power. In the truly powerful, stand in their own mastery. In the truly not powerful, need to do that, need to divide people, need to [00:43:00] accumulate as much as possible.

And so we have misunderstood power for a very long time, but it goes back to the fear. You were saying that we become so fearful and we have to choose to love. We have to choose to not see that rather than choosing to dehumanize. You were going to say,

Christophe: yeah, I want just to add something on what say, thanks for that.

I think many people live with psychological emptiness and the vacuums. That they think, wealth and power, we, we complete that, we cover that, and unfortunately, It will not. And then they continue. They think, actually, if I can get more, then it would be satisfied. If I get more power and have more control, I’ll be satisfied.

Why? Because individual people have the vacuum, psychological [00:44:00] vacuum and psychological brokenness and emptiness that cannot be filled or covered with all what they think, rather than acknowledging that. And accept and accepting to get support. So then they give names and they justify and they round people around them.

Maybe we’ve shared interest. And then they think if you have more power going to control and then we are more safe and so it’s as I said it’s more complicated. It’s, you know, very complex. But what I think is that. Awareness and acknowledging that’s actually this not the solution has never been the solution.

So therefore, let’s let’s, you know, accept and come at the table. That’s that’s the [00:45:00] answer, because I always tell people that we always live with whatever we live with it. The differences, as I’ve mentioned, or psychological. And wellness that comes from many things we need to face to accept that it’s a reality and the fact, you know, we need to accepting acknowledging, you know, but also embracing and dealing with that in a positive way than using that as another weapon to harm society and harm ourselves.

So, that’s the way.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Yeah. This goes to my next question, which is like what do you think is the starting point for people? Because I mean, I mean, you see people that have like, like a chasm in terms of division, right? Like you’re talking victim perpetrator, but there are people that are still, they’re reinforcing that division and causing further, further division out.

What do you think would be the first step that people can take towards coming together? Maybe who might [00:46:00] have conflict with their neighbors, with their brothers or sisters or whatever. What, what’s the first step they could take in terms of coming even one step closer towards conversation or towards just eradicating that division?

Christophe: Yeah, you know, that’s a, that’s a very difficult question and good one. Why? Because when we see, like, we tend to look at all those divisions from above. When we look at societies, countries, you know, all, you know, political level where, you know, but we tend to first start from the individual level.

Today, we have so many siblings who cannot talk to each other. So many, we have former friends who have become enemies. [00:47:00]

Gissele overdub: Yeah.

Christophe: That’s at the individual level. And I think that’s where we need to start the conversation from before we start thinking about how do we bring these two politicians, the same table in the same room?

Gissele overdub: It’s

Christophe: how do we bring siblings one who comes after the other? How do we make talk to each other? How do we make true that talk to family, to parents in the other way around? How do we make spouses to talk to each other for me, when that happens, then I can think about that’s higher. That’s why at CARSA, we identify ourselves as a very grassroots community organization, because we see individuals.

We see communities before we think about the nation. Why? Because that’s where everything

Gissele overdub: starts.

Christophe: So I think this question for me, it’s how do we make that happen? And I think for that to happen, there are some steps that need to take place. [00:48:00] In some cases, first of all, maybe the process won’t look the same because of various reasons.

One, the context, the context, but also the culture. You know, there are cultures where people don’t talk to their neighbors generally and they think that’s normal. Sorry to say, but in the places where, when you enter it, you know, in a bus or a train, you make sure you, you know, you are room and you don’t move around so that you don’t touch your neighbor.

Like you create your own world in the bus, like, you know, your privacy where you, you know, that’s, that’s, you know, my, my place. So I think culture also plays an important role or need to be, you know, yeah. But. In some contexts, you need people who we facilitate the conversation,

who, who first of all, we go [00:49:00] with the intention to understand each side. It’s part that you listen. Why are you not talking to a sister? Why are you not into a brother? Then people will express themselves with the anger, with the bitterness, with the accusation, with, you know, the victimization. I mean, the victim, which would, you know, everything.

Then you listen, but then you ask questions. When you ask questions to unlock. The people to move from their emotional side to the logical side of their brain. Then people start thinking, and then you go to the other side. But if that’s not there, people play victimization or victimhood from both side.

That’s one. But secondly, human nature. We are, as I said earlier, we are very selfish and we tend to think. Why do you want me? Why not him or her come first? You know, me to accusation, me to blame, [00:50:00] then that will never happen. The conversion will never take place. That’s why we need to first, it’s like, it’s like cleaning the space and the space of it has to be cleaned from both sides, where mutual accusation, mutual blame goes aside.

And the people start thinking themselves, Then to understand the pain and the suffering that’s the experiencing from the fact of not being able to talk to the whatever enemy. Let’s suppose that’s the enemy’s there and enjoying seeing you suffering. So what are benefiting? So when people understand actually by not talking, by not coming at the same table, you are actually digging yourself.

You are putting more deep and deep in the hole yourself.

Gissele overdub: Yeah.

Christophe: Then people understand, okay, I’m barring myself here at the end of come to the level I can’t even breathe anymore. [00:51:00] And that’s why it causes so many physical sicknesses, diseases that experience coming from no psychological, emotional issue that people cannot deal with.

So I, again, as I said, that’s not a conversation we can have, you know, it’s something that’s need to have the more time. You know, it’s it’s a great starting point to see that. For me, when I think of that individual level of people not coming to it, that’s what makes me more even feel bad because, and at the end, let me tell you who is perfect, who is innocent, who human beings will raise their hands and say, you know, I’ve been always victim in the innocent,

Gissele overdub: who in

Christophe: this world we live

Gissele overdub: in.

Yeah. As Jesus would say, cast the first stone if you’re.

Christophe: So it might be a [00:52:00] minor role, but still, you know, let’s, let’s call people, let’s be bridge builders. And not bridge destroyers. Why? Because at the end of the day, we all need to cross the river to either go to the other side for various reasons. So when you understand that, then you are not doing that’s actually for, for actually, it’s not a gift we are giving to others.

It’s a gift to even we give to ourselves when we accept to come together and talk about a nation.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Yeah. And I do believe that what we do for others, we do for ourselves and what we do for ourselves, we do for others in terms of our healing. So I just, a couple more questions. What does unconditional love mean to you?

I ask all my guests that question.

Christophe: Unconditional love it’s, it means

vulnerability.

Gissele overdub: Good answer. Oh, so last question. Where can people [00:53:00] find your organization? Where can they volunteer? Where can they donate? Maybe talk about the documentary. Anything that you want to say in terms of where people can come and find out more about CARSA and maybe work with CARSA.

Christophe: Yes CARSA is a, is a, an organization that’s based in Rwanda, as I said, and we have a different nowadays with technology, we have website, we have social media. Like if you go, you know, www.carsaministry.org, then you find most of the information there. You can either have, you know, look at our different videos and, and documentaries that are there, some publications, you know, and can also get access to Facebook.

Check out CARSA’s documentary “Blood and Milk”: here

And read about “Unforgiven”: here

You know, Twitters now called x. You know, you can go to, you know YouTube. We have also some videos and YouTube. If you cast a ministry, then you get some YouTube. So there are, you know, different channels and platform from which you can get, you know, to know organization. But second, we invite people always to come and visit our work [00:54:00] and first hands.

Why? Because We know world is full of people doing great jobs in many different areas. And there are so many generous people also out there who want to be part of something bigger than themselves. And we appreciate anyone who has contributed to the work of CARSA in the past and even currently, but we encourage and invite people to come because the work that CARSA is doing, it’s not just for Rwandans, it’s not just for CARSA.

Come and experience, come and see, come and, and touch the ground because what God is doing through CARSA in Rwanda is something that’s need to be experienced and be adapted and hope and create hope. So, and also people invite CARSA sometimes people have invited me to speak like you did virtually or physically.

I go in and speak to conferences, you know, [00:55:00] churches, gatherings, workshops, and I’m always open when people invite me to go and, and, and share what we’ve been learning. Because I believe that’s what we’ve been seeing, because let me say this.

Working in the area of reconciliation, peace building in the current world. If you look at what is happening in the world, it tends to be very discouraging. You wonder if even what you’re doing is making any, any, any contribution, is making any small change. There’s so many violence happening, conflict around the world.

But personally, as the director of CARSA, as the founder of this organization, Why I wear every day woke up with believing that they should continue really passionately work into reconsent. It’s what I’ve been seeing in Rwanda. And I tell people [00:56:00] if forgiveness is possible between the genocide survivors and perpetrators in Rwanda, forgiveness is possible anywhere.

In any context, if a genocide survivor can welcome a person have murdered the entire family in his home, and the share me and Johnny together. There’s a hope that that can happen. That’s constant. And we invite people to come to volunteering. We host student for internships. We invite people for doing research with us.

So the different ways that we Host in partner with people and collaborate with people from all over the world who wants to come and, and, and support and be part of what God is doing through CARSA. So please welcome whoever listened to this podcast. You know, go on the website, you find CARSA and his email, his phones, you know, contacts would be happy to respond and welcome you and collaborate in any way [00:57:00] possible.

So thank you very much.

Gissele overdub: Thank you so, so much. And please check out CARSA, check out their documentary, blood and milk, and stay tuned for another episode of the love and compassion podcast with Giselle.

Christophe: Thank you. Thank you very much.

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Gissele overdub: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Giselle. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our worlds. Don’t forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content.

Today we’ll be talking about bringing compassion into the school system, and we’ll be talking to Kara Cosby, who is the Compassionate Schools Project Teacher at Englehart Elementary School in Louisville, Kentucky she has delivered the Flourish curriculum in grades K to five for six years and is a Compassionate Schools Project Flourish teacher trainer.

She’s also a certified mindfulness director with Whole School Mindfulness. She has completed a master’s degree in elementary education and teaching from the University of Louisville, and has a master’s in education and educational leadership and administration from [00:01:00] Asbury University. Please join me in welcoming Kara.

Hi, Kara. Hello. Hello. Hello. I’m so excited to talk to you because I think compassion in the school system is so, so needed, especially at this time. I was wondering if you could tell the audience a little bit about how you started in this work. How is it that you became this compassionate schools.

Project teacher.

Kara: Okay, so I was a fourth and fifth grade teacher in JCPS. I moved away to Denver, Colorado. I taught for two years there. And then when I decided to come back to Louisville, I kept seeing these positions called the Compassionate schools project. I had no idea what it was but I saw there was several.

So I applied for them. And then I, of course, after applying, started investigating to see, okay, what is this compassionate schools project? What do they do? And then when [00:02:00] I dove a little deeper and found out like what it really involves, I thought, wow, because. I am totally into vision boards, and I had had on my vision board for about a year that I was going to teach yoga.

And so when I found out that this position actually incorporated mindful movement I was so excited. And so that’s how the whole journey began.

Gissele overdub: I love vision boards, and I love being able to kind of align with your manifestation. So that’s, that’s pretty exciting.

Kara: That’s what it felt like, that full circle moment.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, for sure. I love it when life happens like that. Tell us a little bit about what sort of, curriculum you delivered to the young people and maybe perhaps how you define compassion.

Kara: Okay, so the curriculum is broken into 7 units. It starts from the beginning where it’s all about self and, and just learning how to be your [00:03:00] best self and just what is compassion. And so we dive into that first. It’s a very short unit, but then it travels after you introduce compassion into emotions.

Unit three is like all about being your best self. self. So we talk about like what we need to be our best selves. I love the emotions unit because it gives me the chance to show inside out, which is literally one of my favorite cartoons. And so Oh, as it goes from self, it moves into friendships and relationships.

So we moved from self to friendships, relationships, just how we interact with others. Then the last two units are like community based. So it moves out of. I mean, it’s still about relationship building, but much more on a wider scale. And so we finish out with unit seven, which is a community service project.

You come up with the project for your school and it’s something that you guys do for the community. And that’s how it all ends every [00:04:00] year. So for me, In terms of like what compassion is in my definition probably has changed so many times, but ultimately, you know, when I ask the kids, what is compassion, you know, they’re like being nice and they think it’s about being nice to others, but I really teach them that compassion is about kindness and it’s not just about being kind to other people, but learning how to be kind to yourself first.

Because you are first. Then once we take care of ourselves, then we can go out and be our best self for everyone else. So that’s really, I love the way it flows. Now there have been times where I have gone out of order just because of like, what’s happening in school. So like, if I see. One year, I think the kids were just having a really hard time.

It was the very beginning of school year, but they were having a hard time getting along. So I really dove into unit five first, which was like all about friendships and cooperative learning and just how to work with people. So we, we kind of jumped around that year.

Gissele overdub: [00:05:00] I think that’s such a great idea because we are meeting the kids where they’re at, right?

Kara: habit. Okay. You know, they’ve been having it for years, so you can kind of do that, but not with your kindergarten. It’s because it’s like their first time.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And is this program embedded within this school? Like, is it something that happens every year or is it just a, it’s a limited time project?

Kara: So the Compassionate Schools Project is actually like a study, you know, it started off at As a study with the University of Virginia they were like doing a lot of data keeping in the beginning and, you know, it was all like trying to gauge how this program would impact schools. And I guess over time, you know, the, the survey part wrapped up and they got the research and then.

It kept going. it has happened every year and it is like, a class. So in every school probably does it different, but my school utilizes it as like a special area or itinerant class, like along with PE and art and things like [00:06:00] that.

Gissele overdub: Beautiful, beautiful. And can you share a little bit about some of the outcomes that you’ve seen, like sort of the impact on the children who have taken this course in particular?

Kara: I feel like you know, the great thing is we start in kindergarten. So the real the real proof is in watching a child who came in at kindergarten and is now graduating fifth grade, you know, so they’ve had it for six years.

And so over that time, I really get to see the change in behavior. Now, I will say, like, if I think about there’s this one particular student that I always meet. Use as my example when he came in, he was a first grader, very angry, would storm out of class over the smallest things and would curse at teachers.

I mean, he, he was just a very emotional child, but over the years I noticed that he could learn [00:07:00] to regulate and he. Like if he got upset in class, he would like go off to a corner. So now instead of storming out of the room, we’re learning how to go find us a space by ourselves. And so over time, I just watched how his reactions they changed, you know, and I don’t ever, you know, try to take credit, like, Oh, CSP did that, you know?

But I think maturity and. You know, they’re learning these skills every year. And the one thing I do love is like the lessons are by like K and one have the same lessons. So if you came in and kindergarten, you’re going to see the same deck lessons again in first grade. And then when you go to second grade, a whole new set of activities and things, and then the same thing for fourth and fifth, so you really get to kind of see kids move through the different grade levels and just how the activities change.

But I think the core. You know, the core is like the calming and focusing, And we’re [00:08:00] breathing, we’re stretching, and those things are consistent. And so I feel like over time, it really teaches the kids how to regulate, you know, when they face different adversities in life.

Gissele overdub: And this is so important because I think the school system doesn’t really teach Children, how to regulate if they expect them to know to come in knowing that but some kids don’t always have that or get that example at home. And so the school does give them the opportunity to, with your program, it’s giving them the opportunity to practice a very, very important skill, especially in leadership.

You sort of need empathetic people who are able to regulate their own emotions before they manage conflict. That’s very important in leadership. And so I think what you’re doing is phenomenal. What has been the engagement from the teachers and the principals in terms of the, the program?

Kara: My principal loves the program. His kids [00:09:00] actually, you know, came through the CSP project. So, you know, he would come back and tell me stories like how they were coming home and teaching their little brother the fresh start sequence. And so, you know, that’s when I’ll begin to hear little stories, you know, and the teachers in that way also will report back like on, you know, things people are doing in class or, you know, he all of a sudden he was getting upset and he found his anchors.

And so, you know, over time, I feel like. You know, there’s just been little things that happen and it kind of brings it to the attention. Now I have teachers who love CSP and they will come in, sit on a mat, you know, they’ll join us for coming and focusing and then they’ll leave and go have their planning.

I’ve really with whole school. So whole school didn’t really come into the picture until the past two years. But with whole school, it has really opened my eyes in terms of how to expand beyond my classroom and how can I bring in teachers and how can I touch the community? [00:10:00] How can we get to the parents and the families?

So with whole school, it has really kind of pushed me to find ways to get the teachers. So we started this calm program and it’s an outside instructor. She comes in, she does mindful movement and breathing with the teachers. And so that was like something that many teachers loved. And so I just try to find ways to, you know, bring the teachers in because the teachers already, they just think of me like, Oh, this is just another class.

But then they start to see like what we do. And I’ve made it a point to like pass out the posters that I use. And so everybody has a calm place in their room now. Which is something we just started last year. So I gave every teacher, you know, posters that have breathing strategies, things that kids can do, things that they see already in my classroom, but now let’s transfer it to your class.

So they’ve been receptive. I will say they’ve been very receptive.

Gissele overdub: And I think that’s so important for engagement, right? Like if they see, if [00:11:00] the children see an alignment in this in the teachers in terms of the practice in like an allowance, almost like you’re allowed to have this space And I think it makes it easier for the kids to, to really practice those skills in the different environments. I’ve been in leadership, so I know how important it is to have that acceptance at all the different levels, because if you don’t have engagement from that leadership it can be really hard to implement.

You talked about. The community projects. And I think this is so important. Can you give me a few examples of some of the, the community projects that you, that the students have put together?

Kara: Okay, so over the years, we’ve done a lot. I think in the very beginning, we did things like, you know, project cleanup campus cleanup day. And so, you know, the kids got gloves and I feel like Metro United or some local organization might have done that. Like, they donated us gloves and bags and we had the little you know, [00:12:00] those little trash, like Yeah, yeah.

Like the little clippy things. Like Yeah. That just, yeah. Kids love that. They’re like, oh, we use that. So, you know, picking up trash, cleaning up our, our playground. I’m cleaning up our campus. We’ve even done small things like we get the sidewalk chalk. We go out on the street. We are located downtown pretty much so like on a corner block.

So I would have the kids spread out and we would have already done the messages in class. But I tell them, like, what’s a message that someone needs to see as they walk by? Like, what is something that you could say to someone that would brighten their day? We’re talking complete strangers. So they come up with a few words and then we go outside.

We each get a square, we decorate it so that people who are walking by see these positive messages, you know, put a smile on people’s face. Last year we really wanted to show appreciation for our bus drivers. So we made cards for the bus drivers and you know, it was very random and how we delivered them.

I mean, we went out, we put. Positive notes on [00:13:00] people’s cars and like stuck them in their windshield. So I was like, people are going to think they’re getting a ticket and they’re going to look at it. It’s going to have this positive message about how great they are and that’s going to make their day. So the kids were super excited to do it.

And Yeah, those are just like a few I can think about the top of my head. We really try to do something more like just those positive vibes, sending out positive vibes to the community. I’ve always wanted to do like a drive of some sort or like where they bring in things, but you know, the disadvantage too, is like I serve at a school.

Where the socioeconomic status is, is very low. So, it feels, you know, I, I struggle with, like, asking those kids, because these are the kids who would normally need donations. They would need those things that I’m asking for us to bring for the community. Really, they are that community. So I really have never kind of dove into that part because I’m always kind of worried about it.

So I really try to just stick to like, how can we make our neighborhood better? How can we put a smile on people’s faces? [00:14:00] And that seems to be the thing we go with here lately.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, you don’t, don’t underestimate the power of, of that. Of those positive words and that those positive energies the reason being is because somebody may have never heard that they’re worthy or beautiful or lovable.

They might have received something. They might have received like a cookie or, or, you know, like some food. But to hear you’re worthy, you are loved, you’re valuable to some people is the whole world and that’s what you’re doing. And so I think, yeah. And I think that’s, that’s not to be underestimated. Although I, I do totally agree with you in terms of generosity, but I think what you’re doing equally as, as worthwhile in terms of helping people.

And it’s sort of like, it’s very easy for us to, to catch the virus of negativity, right? it’s almost like a virus that just needs to spread the negativity, the [00:15:00] anger, the fear. So what you’re doing is you’re doing the opposite because that those people are then going to pass it onto someone else and they’re going to have a good day and therefore just going to spread around.

And from that, you are creating a community of love, which I think is so instrumental.

Kara: Yeah, sounds like paying it forward. That’s what I tell them.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re teaching the kids the value of you know, that, that positivity, which I think is, is important. So what have you learned about student leadership from those sorts of projects does the program enable the students to really kind of step up and, and be leaders and learn about leadership?

So like in class, you know, there’s so many opportunities to be the leader and like, I really try to take a student centered approach. And so every day when they come in, you know, I’m always looking for like, who’s sitting down and doing the right thing because you’re going to lead us today.

Kara: So there’s always someone. Who leads us in calming and focusing. Someone has a chime, someone has the ball. Then we [00:16:00] have leaders who lead in terms of the mindful movement and they are like so eager to be the one to lead. Now in terms of the project, you just gave me a great idea because I’m like, yeah, we should have a like.

CSP ambassadors of some kind, like, and I know there is another CSP school and she does that. She has like fifth graders who are CSP ambassadors and they kind of like take the lead. I think they like go to other classrooms, maybe like kindergarten and first grade classrooms, and they might work with those kids and do some mindful movement.

And so I have really thought about How can I implement something like that, too? And I would love to have, like, student leaders do, like, our morning telecast, you know, and then maybe present, like, a mindful minute or something like that. So I’ve definitely thought about it. I feel like the only leadership so far has really been in class.

But I, I would love to expand it beyond that. I feel like there’s definitely a need for that, and it would help the kids so much to [00:17:00] just be in charge of something. You know, they feel good when they get to be in charge.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, for sure. And I think having run many, many programs when I was in leadership, one of the things that I, we were often in the same position that you were talking about, there’s limited funds, like this world might not be there tomorrow.

And so one of the things I always focused on is how could you integrate this into the culture so that I Like whoever they lose, then it’s not lost because that sometimes happens with programs, like the champions come in and they do these things and they do this amazing work and then they eject out for whatever reason and the program dies.

But when you have these ambassadors and champions, it lives on. And, but I, you know, That’s more of a formal role. I can already tell you that if you’re seeing different into the kids, they’re already those champions there that are, or that you are basically feeding from the very beginning in kindergarten all the way to, to fifth grade.

So I [00:18:00] think, so congratulations on that for sure. Yeah. I wanted to ask one of the, the challenges that I’ve seen here in the Canadian system in particular having gone through it as a child myself and with my own children. I, it’s a sometimes punitive approaches that happen with behavior issues.

And so, you know, like the, the approaches in terms of suspensions and, and sort of like the way we manage kids that are having problems. How has the compassionate schools project impacted the way that’s that schools respond to negative behavior?

Kara: So we have the here we have these they’re called SRT calls. Okay. So, like, if a child is. exploding or, you know, something has happened. The teacher makes a call and security or someone shows up to remove the child. And we are school that has a lot of those. And so my goal this [00:19:00] past year was how can I help cutting down some of these behavior issues?

So I implemented a program called the compassion coupons. Okay. And this was my first year trying them. So I gave teachers coupons like a little booklet and they were in 15, 20 and 25 minute increments on them was like It was like a cute little picture of a kid

And it says like this compassion coupon is for, and they would put the student’s name. And I told the teachers instead of calling SRT, let’s try giving them the gift of compassion first. So you, instead of calling SRT, you’re going to, you see something’s about to happen. You can sense it. You give that child a coupon and you say, go deliver this to Ms.

Cosby. So the child Is now focused on something else. So they come to my room and they say, I’m supposed to give this to you. And I, and I look at, I say, okay, well, what happened? You know, so they come in, we [00:20:00] talk now, if they come in and I’m in the middle of class, I just have them join in on whatever we’re doing.

So I don’t care what grade is in there. Get a mat. Join us. Let’s go. So usually they just kind of fall into whatever is already going on. And then I’ll try to find some time and talk to them one on one to find out like, you know, what happened? How you feeling? And usually, you know, they only need 15 to 20 minutes and they are smiles on faces and we’re ready to go back to class.

So that was super popular. And the teachers were very receptive with that. To it. I had some teachers who never wanted to use them and I had to tell them like, I think they like maybe felt bad. Like, I can’t just put them off on you. And I said, No, that’s not what you’re doing. You know, this is just as much for you as it is for them.

You know, just giving you a moment so that you can focus and teach the class and it’s giving them a break out of the classroom. So once teachers kind of once I talked to them and told them like, The purpose [00:21:00] behind it. Then they were like, Oh, okay. And I had way more compassion coupons being used. So I feel that in this coming year, the real proof will be to see, like, look at the numbers to see did SRT calls go down as a result of starting this.

And I really want to start it from the beginning of the year this year, because this came like midway through the year last year. So, I mean the real, I think we need to look and see, but I really love the idea of just like not getting upset with the child seeing that they have a need and then let’s try to address the need.

And I’m going to, I will work with you to do that.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. So thank you for sharing that. Such a beautiful story. And what a great initiative, because I think that’s one of the things that I found. We don’t get curious enough in the school system about what’s happening to the kids to cause that, that reaction.

Sometimes school is a hard day at the office for some of these kids. I used to work in the child welfare system, child protection system. I don’t know what they call it in the U [00:22:00] S. But many of those kids. Kids came from toxic homes or they were in the foster care system. So mother’s day, father’s day, very triggering.

And they weren’t going to say, excuse me, I’m being triggered by the fact that I don’t have family day coming up because of my family. They’re just gonna react. And so rather than getting curious and being loving, we respond in an equally aggressive manner, like calling a cop or suspending them.

We don’t get curious enough. So I love those compassion coupons because I think it does give them the opportunity to then say, Hey, I’m having a hard day in school or just to, to use the movement to release some of those pent up feelings. And so I think that’s very, very important. I remember having a an experience with a young person.

And, and I truly believe in re imagining people. Like sometimes we pigeonhole people into. Because this is, people say, Hey, Kara is [00:23:00] this particular way. And then everyone kind of sees you this way.

Kara: Yeah.

Gissele overdub: So, and so I had a little kid who was I was working at a daycare at the time and I was, I don’t know, I was like 17 and they gave me, cause I guess the teacher didn’t show up.

I guess she was sick. So they gave me the school age room and they’re like, here’s the school age room. Here’s the stuff. Here’s like. I don’t know, 15, 20 kids. And then they’re like, watch out for so and so. He’s terrible. He’s named a whole bunch of things. And so I go in there and I’m like, wide eyed. I’m like, listen, I’m 17.

I don’t know how to manage these kids. Yeah, like, I can’t manage 1 problematic kid. I really can’t. And so I turned to so and so and said, you’re going to be my helper today. You’re going to be the lead. What do you want to do? And the kid, 1st of all, he was shocked. Then 2nd of all, he was my best kid that day.

He led the kids make sure everybody listened. And as soon as his parents came in, I was, I was like, [00:24:00] Very sure to tell them he was my best kid today. He was my super helper. We did all of these amazing things. I allowed him to give some control. And that’s me as a 17 because I’m like, I can’t manage this kid today.

So he has to be my best helper. And so that was probably my first time re imagining people and thinking, you know what, this is a story or identity that somebody has put on you or you’ve been told, let’s shift that. And so I feel like that’s what your compassion coupons are doing is you’re re imagining what could happen with these kids.

And I think that’s, that’s very important. Yeah.

Do you find that as you get to grade five, that relationships are more important?

Kara: the conversations around that in fourth and fifth grade are so rich. I mean, we really get into like real situations. What happened on the playground? Well, they’re telling me about, oh, you know, someone got mad because, you know, I stepped on his shoe and he said this.

And so, you know, we [00:25:00] really get to dive into like the real. Stories because I always tell them, let’s, let’s go over a real life example. And then let’s talk about like how we could have reacted versus how we did react. And so I feel like the conversation around those parts in fourth and fifth grade are just so good.

Oh, they’re so rich. And it just, you can see the light bulb go off for them. It’s like, Oh, you know, but with my younger ones, You know, it’s got to be like really simple, but nonetheless, like we had so much conflict this last year in second grade and I don’t know we, you know, I think it’s one of those things you need to get to the bottom.

Like you said, like, investigate why is this? Why is this? Why is this particular grade having such a struggle this year because they were constantly fighting. And it was just, I mean, it was constant. So we really, my counselor and I, and I love that my counselor, she like loves to partner with me on so many projects throughout the year.

But we have been talking about next year, you know, like how can we target those kids early? Like we know. [00:26:00] What the problems were last year, like they’re going into third grade, we’re going to be proactive and not reactive. And we’re going to set up, you know, some small groups and get those kids into some extra CSP time.

And so the great thing is that this year, my schedule is opening up a little bit, way more than in the past. And so I’m super excited to do some SEL groups. And I told them like, you know, those tier two kids who are like on the verge of tier three. We can start pulling them, making small groups, you know, talking about conflict and just how to get along and all the things that they’re struggling with.

But that’s really good because then it allows us to kind of hone in on what is the real issue. And I think through conversation in small group, we will get to the real issue of what’s causing all this conflict.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, and I think what you said is so spot on. And I love that you recognize that this cohort is different in that you’re planning for it.

I think [00:27:00] that is so amazing because there’s some schools that don’t know the kids. Like, there’s some schools that don’t really know who they are. They don’t really know what’s going on for them. And the fact that you’re willing to say, Hey, I want to get to know and how to support this cohort in particular, like, instead of just sticking with my curriculum, yeah, the curriculum is important.

What else do they need? And therefore that you’re very curious about that. And I think that’s so important.

Kara: Yeah, and I will say at our school, we have a lot of people on our staff who are also working in conjunction with all of this. So, you know, we have a mental health practitioner full time. We have a full time social worker and, you know, we have the counselor.

So, you know, it’s really great because they already have small groups, some of these people. And so it will be really nice to just like work together and then see these kids multiple times and it not just be this like sporadic [00:28:00] when we have time, we meet with you. And a lot of times, you know, the mental health and the social worker, they meet one on one.

So I’m really excited to start the small group portion of this.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. And that’s how you prevent kids from falling through the cracks, right? That’s how you prevent kids from not being seen and acknowledged. And so I think that’s, that’s instrumental and that goes to like, you know, in particular you have this whole bullying and in school shooter fears.

How has this compassion based training helped the whole issue of like potentially the bullying and harassment

Kara: You know, so everybody thinks the kids think. Everything is bully, you know, me and I’m like, well, what did he do? And then they’ll explain what happened.

I’m like, oh, that’s not bullying. So, you know, I feel like bullying in America has been overused, you know, and to the point that kids don’t really [00:29:00] understand. What it is. They think if you say something mean to me, you bully, you’re bullying me. And I’ve had to just really explain like a bully is a person who is picking on you relentlessly.

Like they pick on you every day. I said, it’s not different people every day. I said, because kids tease each other. I went through it. I tell them all the names. I got called when I was a kid and they called me poor eyes and they just called me all kinds of things. I’m like, this is normal teasing.

Now, do we like it? No, no. And so we talk about like, how do you combat that? Because for some kids that is just like normal behavior. Normal conversation is to pick you apart. Let me talk about your shoes. Let me talk about about your clothes and talk about your hair. You know, anything they can find to talk about, they will talk about.

So I go over that. It’s like it’s so good that we get to talk about it because I bring it into the lessons and I’m like, you know, be clear. Like when people are picking on you, It’s because they don’t feel good. [00:30:00] They are not happy. And so we really look at how to like turn that around. Cause I say, you know, if, if somebody’s talking about my shoes, I’m, I’m looking at them going, Oh, I’m so sorry that you feel so bad that you need to talk about my shoes, you know?

So really it’s like working with kids on what to say when someone comes at. You negatively, how can you respond? Instead of you being negative back, you could say something else. You could do something else, you know? So, you know, by the end of the year, kids are very clear. Like, Oh, I’m walking away. Like, I’m not listening to him.

I’m just going to walk away. And I’m like, good. That’s a strategy. You can walk away. You can ignore them. You can go somewhere else and play with someone else. So they really pick up on through the, through the talking about these real life examples that, you know, not everything that I thought was bullying is bullying.

because to me, someone who’s a bully, there’s a reason. And I always tell them that like, there’s a reason he’s that way. There’s a reason she is saying that.

And it’s really not about you. You, you know, they’re making it about you and they’re [00:31:00] making, trying to make you feel bad, but you don’t have to accept that. And so, you know, it really brings up like just some great conversation around what we allow out as human beings, you know, allowing what other people say to really get to us to the point that we are acting out of character, we are exploding.

Gissele overdub: So, you know, it just, it’s those teachable moments. I just really try to decipher with kids like, is that really bullying or is that teasing? Yeah. Thank you for sharing.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I appreciate that because I think we’ve made kids hypervigilant because of the school shootings and drills during my times, I remember that there was this kid in my high school school. Who was bullied relentlessly and nobody said anything.

None of us said anything because we didn’t want to be also picked on. I was, I was a nerd too. I’m like, Oh, I don’t want to be the target. And and so then I remember this kid, cause I mean, I think he had had enough. He brought a knife to school. Right. Because he just wanted them to stop. He just wanted them to stop.

[00:32:00] And who knows why this other person used to consistently pick on this individual. Cause like you said, I think hurt people, hurt people. I think people that truly love themselves and are compassionate towards themselves and feel worthy don’t need to pick on other people. They just don’t, they don’t bother with you.

And the people that are not feeling good about themselves. It’s like, I need to pass this on. And so helping students. understand and address that I think is, is great. It’s great for the, for the kids. Yeah, I’m going to shift gears a little bit.

Kara: I remember my kids, they’re always constantly wiggling and moving. Like, how do they manage So, of course, you know, kindergarten is always the challenge because, you know, they’ve never done it.

And so they are usually the hardest group. However. I have my class set up in a way that you need to be successful in this. And so I’m, I really stress like we do these things and it’s for you, you know, I’m doing. this to teach you the strategy so that when you [00:33:00] get upset, you know how to regulate and calm yourself down.

And so once I have that conversation and the piece about at the end of class, we’re going to play some fun games. So if you don’t give me 100 percent then you won’t be invited to participate in the games. And so it’s like that dangling carrot, like, okay, you want this, but you’re This is what I need. And so, you know, that helps with those reluctant kids too, because there are always some kids who are just, what are we doing?

And why are we doing this? And they come in with a bad attitude and they. don’t want to participate in. I’m not doing this. It’s usually new kids who maybe my like fourth or fifth day, there’s a new student who’s never been to our school. So they are very much like, I’m not doing that. but they learn very quickly.

My class is fun. Like I make sure that it is a lot of fun. So even our activities, like if there’s always an activity that goes with every lesson, but like the beginning of class is serious. You come in, you sit quietly, you find your anchors. We’re going to do our, you [00:34:00] know, focusing We’re going to breathe.

And they know, like after about a week of class, I have no more playing around. There it is all gone. So I do a really good job just of setting up the routines and procedures for how I want things to run. And I’m very clear with the kids. Like today I have I had summer school today and I actually get to teach compassion, which is such a blessing because normally I’m teaching reading or math or something, but they actually said, we need an SEL teacher.

So I was like, great. So I had this. Little guy today and he was rolling the mat. They like to roll up like a hot dog in the mat and I’m like I understand you’re playing with the mat, but know that if you play now you won’t play later So you gotta decide I always make it a choice a choice You can choose that choose that if that’s what makes you happy But just know when we get to the end i’m going to ask you to sit I’m not going to ask you to play.

Okay, and so that exchange usually goes, oh, oh, okay, and then we’re sitting up and then we’re listening and we’re doing [00:35:00] the things because, oh, I want to play this game. You have at the end. I want to play it.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely.

Kara: Yeah.

Gissele overdub: Oh, I love kids. They’re so. So wonderful to

Kara: get my teachers to understand, like, if you just incorporate fun, I don’t care what you teach, because, you know, people thought like, oh, mindfulness is that’s kind of boring.

And how do the kids don’t want to do that? And it’s like, they may not. Some of them may not want to, but, but, but when you incorporate fun with it then they want to, and I mean, even my, some of my worst children have changed so much, they come in, they’re sitting down, they’re looking like leaders cause they want to be the leader.

They want to be the person who’s, who’s showing leadership and being picked to lead the class. And so when, like you said, just like. When you speak to the leader in them, that makes them rise, you know, and I feel I’m a huge proponent of high expectations because if I set the expectation here, they will rise to meet it.

They will because they love me. So, and you know, when they love [00:36:00] you, they want to do whatever you ask them to.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Thank you so much for mentioning expectations. Because I think sometimes we hold the bar so low for certain kids that we’re not doing them. Any favors and I think the more you hold the bar, high, not in like, you have to do this like with super pressure, but more around, like, I see the best version of you.

I see it. I see you in the best version of you whether you choose to attain it or not, that’s entirely your choice, but I see it within you. And I think that helps young people

Kara: because maybe like you said, they’ve not heard that, you know, they’ve not had anyone truly believe in them or tell them that they’re great or that they can achieve these things.

And it’s like, here’s a space where. Even, you know, little Johnny, who’s known for getting in trouble, who’s known for getting bad [00:37:00] grades, he can excel here. He can really rise up and look like a true leader in this space. And so I really always try to encourage them to like, you know, take that on to class.

You know, when you’re feeling some, you know, get your anchors, you can do that at your seat. You don’t have to bother anybody. And so I am always like just preaching to them. Like it’s those little small actions, you know, it goes a long way.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, for sure. And I also wanted to mention the importance of play and fun because

So one of the things that I was taught was really that the school system isn’t about fun. It’s about responsibility and seriousness. And, and so the fun is gonna get taught out of us, right?

We have to be responsible and we have to be like serious and we have to just sit there. And so, I love that you are reintegrating the whole play aspect and fun aspect of it, because I think that’s so important for kids. That really resonates with them [00:38:00] because schools be boring. I don’t know about your schools, but our schools are.

tres boring. my kids they’re like, they don’t, they’re not motivated.

They’re not inspired to go. And so these systems are not really that inspirational. So I applaud you for that.

Kara: So, yeah, you know, school has always been preached, like, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s serious business, you know, and we go to school to learn and we’re not here to play, you know, teachers will say that we’re not here to play. But I’m a firm believer that we are here to play. And the more you incorporate the play, the more they will love what you’re doing.

And so you can do that with math. You can do that with reading. You can really do that with any subject.

so let me tell you, I have days where I do what’s called stations.

Okay. And so they’ll come in and there might be like, Toys and Legos and just different things. Well, I have this dress up station. Okay. And it’s got like costumes, but more like, you know, like doctor [00:39:00] jacket, nurse, you know, football player jerseys and just different like jobs. And I always think that it’s like for my little kids, but one day I left them out all day and I did, and I see every grade every day.

So, you know, I’m seeing kindergarten all the way to fifth. So I left it out for my fifth graders. And in my mind, I was like, Oh, they’re going to roll their eyes. They’re going to be like, why does she have this stuff out? They were so excited. And I mean, they were dressing, they were putting on over. I was shocked just.

And it, it made me realize like, these are still, they are kids at the end of the day, their children. I don’t care how big they are. They’re still children and they still love to play and they love to have fun and they love to pretend.

And in that moment, that’s when I realized like everything I do can be, can go from kindergarten all the way to fifth because those kids love to play too. And they like to dress up and do those fun things that they really don’t ever get to do. Yeah. [00:40:00] So yeah, I totally agree that play needs to be brought back.

I am literally working on a brand new first year teacher. She struggled last year. She was a secondary teacher. So of course there was a lot of conflict, but she asked me because I think she was always so surprised when she would come pick her kids up that I wasn’t having behavior problems and she’s like, Oh, this one’s not acting up and I’m like, no, they were fine.

And she’s like, well, why are they like that for you? So I told her like, you know, you’ve got to learn how to incorporate fun. but that’s what she’s been taught. You know, she’s a great teacher, but I told her that this year she and I are going to sit down so I can really help her figure out, you know, how can you tie in fun things?

Because when you have the fun, they’ll do what you want them to do because they want to have fun. And so you have to learn how to tie it all together and make the learning fun. Don’t make it. Boring.

Gissele overdub: Yeah.

Kara: I’m preaching that this year. Yeah,

Gissele overdub: for sure. That’s, that’s great. And, and it’s so great that you’re willing to help your colleague out so that she can [00:41:00] get the best outcomes and the kids can get the best outcome.

So that’s, that’s also very compassionate and community based. I just have a couple of more questions. I’m asking all of my guests what their definition of unconditional love is. Oh,

Kara: that’s something I actually think about, you know, because to me, you know, we love people in all different parts of our lives, but that unconditional love is, Like, no matter what you do, or what you say, or how you behave, I love you just the same.

So, for me, it’s really about, and this is something that I feel the Compassionate Schools Project has really taught me. Me because let me tell you, my journey as a teacher has definitely changed. I have changed. I mean, just how I approach teaching, how I approach relationships with other people.[00:42:00]

It’s all changed because of this program, because the more I got into it and the more I really understood that I needed my own practice, like my own personal practice in order to really be the best mindfulness teacher for my kids. I love to journal.

There’s just certain things that I do with my day to kind of set me up for success. It has really allowed me to learn not to take things personal. And I think once I’ve removed myself and there’s no room for like, like whatever anyone says to me, I’m not making it about me. You know, I’m looking at them thinking, Hmm, wonder why she said that, you know, and it never is anything that knocks me off or really gets me upset.

But it makes me just realize, like, how many people are out here hurting, you know, and like, I go to work every day and I’m probably one of the very few people that like, I come in with a smile on my face pretty much every day. And I tell my coworkers, like, I love my job. Like, I’m, I’m so glad, I’m glad to be here.

I’m grateful to be here. I literally take [00:43:00] gratitude into every class session that I have. I tell the kids, like, I’m grateful for you, you know, and that sense of gratitude. It kind of just like brings the love out of you, you know, so I have just learned over time that in. Really loving someone and loving them unconditionally.

It is really about not taking things personal. And then no matter what is happening, I’m still operating with you from a place of love, because that’s who I am. You know, I embody love. I embody the joy. I bring that so that I can share that with you. I like try to just be a beacon of sunshine. And that’s what I tell them.

I’m here to be the sunshine. And so what do you need today? I do this with the adult and the kids, which I also think is why I have really good relationships with the teachers. So like when I need something, or if I’m asking teachers to join in on something, they are much more likely to do so [00:44:00] because they already have a relationship with me.

And so like that what’s happening with that second grade teacher, that’s literally my natural inclination is to like, Oh, let me help her, you know, I want to show her because. Nobody else is doing it. And so we can’t expect a brand new teacher to come into an environment like ours, where it’s, it is a struggle.

I mean, the kids are, it is rough. And if you’re not prepared, you will drown. I mean, you just will. And I’ve seen it happen. So I really am a person who believes in just operating from that place of joy. And, oh, let me help you. Oh, you need that. I’m here. Let me help you with that. And it’s good. I can do that because I am an itinerant teacher.

So I don’t have the same. pressures the same responsibilities that the classroom teachers do. So I really feel, and sometimes they’re jealous of that, you know, they’re like, you’re so lucky. And I’m like, you can do this too. There’s plenty of jobs to do this. So, you know, it just gives me an opportunity to just kind of, you know, see what everyone is needing, not just the [00:45:00] kids, but what is it, what is anybody needing?

Let me help you

Gissele overdub: Yeah. for sharing that. That’s a great definition of love. It’s wonderful. Last question is where can people find you or find more information about the compassionate school project? What do you want to share with the, with the audience? Anything that you want to share, please share now.

Kara: Well, you know, clearly you can find me at Ingleheart elementary school in Louisville, Kentucky. I’m always open to classroom visits. I have had visits from so many people, literally the surgeon general for president Obama came to my classroom to watch me teach. Oh my gosh. Amazing.

Like I am always open to people who want to see this program in action. I have an open door policy. Come in, join in, have a seat. See whatever you like, you know, and it’s great. In terms of that, I am, I am being very intentional this year about getting my social media presence going. So be [00:46:00] on the lookout for hopefully a Tik TOK channel with the Engelhardt So that is my goal for this year. Cause I was thinking like, how can I reach families? And unfortunately, JCP has had a lot of transportation issues and the schedule has changed. We don’t start school till 9 40 in the morning and we get out at almost 5 PM in the afternoon. It is terrible! So in terms of engagement, that piece is missing now because we can get out so late.

You can’t expect parents and families to come right back, you know, 30 minutes and half the time the kids don’t get home till six, six 30. They’re not coming back to school five o’clock for a program. So my goal is to really make it virtual and share tips online. So as soon as I get that going, I will be sure to contact you.

Just say, Oh, yes,

Gissele overdub: of course. Yes, we can put it. Cause I transcribed the interviews and so we can add all the links right there. So yes, please. And I also want to tag [00:47:00] you. So, and just because I, I like you, so I would love to follow your journey. That’s a, that’s amazing.

Kara: I appreciate that.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Thank you so, so much for being on the show and sharing your wisdom with all of us.

We really appreciate it. Please continue to update us on the amazing work that you are doing. And I thank you all for joining us for another episode of the love and compassion podcast with Gissele. Have a

Kara: good day. Have a good one.

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Gissele Taraba: [00:00:00]

Hello. And welcome to the love and compassion podcast with Gissele.

We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content. Today, we’re going to talk about people pleasing and how compassion can help us address those needs.

Today I’m talking with Tina O Hoang, who is a disabled recovering people, pleaser and podcaster.

She strives to ensure women have the space to choose themselves and to share their courageous stories. Whether it be changing how They’re perceived within a family dynamic, leaving a comfortable nine to five or advocating for themselves. She believes that women of color are allowed to take the first step and don’t need permission to do so.

After someone told her that her passivity was unattractive, she took it and decided to become as assertive and courageous as she could ever be. With a master’s [00:01:00] degree in career counseling, Tina also understands the hardship of career changes

She knows that even when we’re scared of making the first step, we need to just say F it and do it anyways.

Please join me in welcoming Tina. Hi Tina. Hi Giselle. Yay. Thank you for having me. Oh no, thank you for being on the show. Let’s talk people pleasing. As a person who is the complete opposite, because I didn’t feel loved or accepted, I just went, screw it. I’m just going to do what I can.

And I was so confrontational. So if you could share a little bit with me about how the opposite feels, the people pleasing and what got you to be in that state.

Tina Juan: Yeah. So I think for the longest time, I think honestly, like, My feeling like how you are, it was deep inside me this whole time.

F everything..

I don’t care about it. I just want to do everything. But somehow, I think maybe within my own culture, family is important. [00:02:00] Because in my culture, whatever you do as a child reflects to your parents and people blame. My parents, if I were to act differently, so like if I went to act out and just like screw everything, you know, do all the bad things you could think of, there’s like, Oh, is your mom’s fault?

That’s why she can’t raise you. Right. Or is your dad’s fault? They, he didn’t know how to discipline you in the right way. And so everything goes back to my parents and. You know, growing up too is honestly, first few things I remember of making sure my mom was always happy. I think that’s like the main thing for me is like,we grew up in a single household, and she was always, she was working double shift every single day, like seven days a week.

She was, she was a business owner, and the fact that, um, the fact that she [00:03:00] would leave work for like, for lunch. Come over, come to school, hang out with me and my brother, and then go back to school and then go back to work. Yeah, and so, you know, so there was this, so there was this, um, precedent of mom is making all these sacrifices for us.

as a single mom, I need to make sure that whatever she does is makes her happy.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah,

Tina Juan: and also need her to accept me as a person because she’s because I think in the ages around, I think the primal age is like zero to seven.

That’s where like, Okay. You really need your parents around that time, she was working, you know, and that gravitation of like, I need people to love me, I need people to like me, if they don’t, then if I don’t act a certain way, they’ll leave, they’ll leave me forever. And so that kind of that grew the notion of like, [00:04:00] pleasing people pleasing all this time.

Making sure that whoever and whoever, anyone is around me is okay. And then also that comes into like, being responsible for other people all the time. I get so mad sometimes because we’re not responsible for other people’s feelings. Only our own.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Tina Juan: I tend to also like, monitor, emotional monitor other people around me all the time.

I saw my brain is working 24 seven. It doesn’t take a break. that’s a lot of energy taking out of me where I could have using the energy to focus on myself.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. As you were talking, it made me really think about how similar we were, even though I originally thought we had a different perspective, uh, because I also felt the same way in terms of wanting to protect my mother in particular for her to be happy.

But then I [00:05:00] discovered very early that that didn’t work. And so then I took the opposite approach of like saying, screw you. Like, if you say up, I use, I sit down. If you say white, I say black, like complete opposite, but the needs were the same, the need to be loved, to accept it, to take care of, I still had those.

I just didn’t feel I was very successful in, in meeting their needs. And so if I’m playing a losing battle, why bother? Um, but I, as you were talking, I resonated so much with what you were saying, because I remember having those same feelings. Um, and so even though we’re coming at it from a different approach, the feelings are the same.

When did you discover you were actually a people pleaser? Like, was it after that comment or was it something that came in layers?

Tina Juan: I think it came in layers like I knew I was a people pleaser, but then like, it never came to fruition until that comment,

because

even after that comment, I then I asked all my friends, [00:06:00] my, some of my closest friends, I was asking them, Hey, am I passive?

Am I passive? Am I passive? And all of them said, Yes, you are.

And I’m like, oh my goodness. and you know, even the notion you were saying about, Like, getting, feeling accepted and feeling loved by your parents, and I did have a raging component in there too, like, where my mom tells me I’m always stubborn.

Gissele Taraba: The

Tina Juan: term called, we call it, like, she say, this is literally, like, why are you so stubborn?

She would say, that’s how I’m gonna lead, right? That’s how I’m gonna lead. Which is like, why are you so stubborn? Or like, I’m like, that is why, like, that is why I’m stubborn. Cause my inner self, she’s trying to get out and say, this is what I want. This is what I need whenever I ask for something. Because my mom’s in a sense of like, I’m doing.

I know what’s [00:07:00] best for you.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

And as you mentioned, you know, culture plays such a big role in it because, you know, as a parent now, you know, thinking about what you said to be blamed for my kids behaviors. I mean, I have no control over, I mean, my husband and I have hopefully taught these kids all of the important values.

But at the end of the day, they’re going to choose how they live their life and they have the right to. But for me then to be judged on my kids behavior that must be really difficult. And hence why parents Control, right? Like try to control their kids behavior and it sort of creates this endless cycle.

Um, it makes it, it makes parenting really hard, right? At what point did you just decide and say, you know what? Like, I, I really can’t be responsible for my. Parents happiness,

Tina Juan: that is still a work in progress. Like, right now.

Yeah,

Gissele Taraba: yeah, that’s fair.

Tina Juan: Yeah. But then it’s still [00:08:00] it, but then at the same time, it’s gotten a lot better since then it’s been about. Five year 2019 that’s when the comment came in of like my passivity was unattractive. the first thing action I did was asking my mom to not ever open my mail.

So that was like the first hurdle of like, I would whenever she tried to open else I find make it to make her keep her happy like I don’t like it. But she’s concerned, I don’t want to ruffle, I don’t want to ruffle the feathers. So that was where it start, you know, accumulating since then.

Gissele Taraba: What was the response?

Tina Juan: Lash out. Really? She didn’t understand it. I mean, I understand where she was coming from, from that moment, just, you know, worry and making sure that we are okay, that if there’s a, if there’s an important mail that we can get, we can get to it right away because I, I don’t live with her. So sometimes just certain mails that comes to her house.

I just get it later. [00:09:00] And so, but yeah, it wasn’t a good reaction at all. And still, there’s some moments I just have to pick my battles, you know, like she still does it. Till today, since then, and I’m just like, you know what? It’s like, I don’t want to put more energy than I already did.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. It’s the same with kids, right?

Like you, you kind of have to, you do have to pick your battles in terms of like, it’s like a baby step at a time, right? good for you for at least sharing that perspective. I can only imagine as a single parent, it must have been challenging to make sure that your kids were okay. Right.

And it must feel scary to, especially if I don’t know if she has a relationship or not, it must feel. feel scary to let go of that need to mother, uh, especially if that was your whole identity. Um, how has this influenced your desire to be a parent or not?

Tina Juan: well, I’ve chosen to be a pet mom instead of an actual human.

Gissele Taraba: [00:10:00] Nice. Pets are awesome. Yeah.

Tina Juan: So that, so that kind of influenced. Well. Cool. In a way that did influence me, but overall there’s more responsibility in taking care of a human versus like a pet. So I prefer to put my energy on that, like I have two cats right now and I love them to death.

As

regards a human, I’m okay.

Me and my partner, we’re both, we’re both okay not having children. And so, and we’re okay with that as well too, but there was some influence, but not as much.

Gissele Taraba: I think that’s a very Brave choice. Now, you have the right to change your mind or to keep yourself as a, as a personal lifestyle choice. Um, but it’s so amazing how women in particular are expected to play this mother role.

You have to have children. That’s like your be all And so when people decide to not have children, there’s this real power. Backlash that people face. Um, I don’t [00:11:00] know if you experienced it, but I remember as soon as I got married, there was expectations like, okay, when are you going to have children?

When are you going to have children? And it’s like, exactly. But you would think with the amount of pressure that women face to be mothers, that mothers would be kept up here, but there is so much. Backlash you never doing it right. so you would think that that would be a role that would be elevated as, as high as, um, I don’t know, athletes, but it’s not, it’s not, it’s.

Difficult to have children in this and I’m not talking physically. I’m talking emotionally because like you said, it’s like your heart, you give them all your heart and love and you, and eventually they’ve got to fly the coop and that’s their right. And they got a right to live their life. And so you do feel fear for them.

You feel love, you feel all of these things. Um, and so it, it’s as much as, as rewarding as it is. It can also feel really challenging at times, especially when they struggle. Yeah. Oh,

Tina Juan: right. I mean, like, because even me [00:12:00] as like a pet mom too, like I recently lost my dog in January. Oh,

Gissele Taraba: I’m so sorry.

Tina Juan: No, it’s okay.

Thank you. Appreciate it. Like he, I, I had him for 14 years. So he’s, he’s 14. it’s still kind of fresh here and there, but the, I feel like that’s the same thing. Like you’re losing a part of your heart. Yeah, I’m losing someone and then it’s the same thing as having, I feel like there’s no difference of having a human child versus a dog.

Gissele Taraba: I have both. I have a, a 12 year old baby, which I call my 12 year old, uh, Doberman Shepard. Yeah. And he’s my baby and he’s never going to die.

That’s it. That’s why people ask me how old he is and they’re people like, Oh, how old is your dog? I’m like, he’s 12 and he’s never going to die. So I like, I don’t even engage in the conversation.

I’m like, Nope. Nope. Yes. Never ever. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.

Um, I wanted to talk a little bit about [00:13:00] this 4B movement that’s happening. I believe in South Korea, I don’t know if it’s a hundred percent correct. And I had seen this on Tik Tok and I was really interested because, you know, some people say, well, it’s not as big as people are making it out, but it’s really catching fire in terms in the Tik Tok community, because from what I’ve learned is like a group of women that have to say Now Let me back up in South Korea has one of the lowest or the lowest birth rates.

So right now, yeah, babies are not being like, they’re just not being born. And so the government is really worried about like, but what’s happening? Like, we’re going to have a whole bunch of old people. I know young people to take care of them. And, one of the reasons that has come out, um, is that there is this, I don’t know if it’s small or large, There’s this group of women who have decided it’s called the four B movement to never to not marry and not have children that just decided this is not [00:14:00] the life I’m going to lead.

This is not what I’m going to do. And this is very much against convention. And all of these North American women are like, oh, my God, what a good decision. Take our power back. Because women have historically, we have suffered from gender issues in terms of wages, you know, like facing rape, abuse, all of these things.

And I believe that people are seeing this 4 B movement is women taking their power back and making a choice. What are your thoughts?

Tina Juan: Oh, no, I agree on that because I’ve always hear people, you know, saying like, are we as women are just a vessel for to produce, you know, and just to only abide to other people.

People, and so I really, oh my gosh, Barbie, that’s like kind of my route to because eventually I, my partner even thought about not even getting married like we’re okay not getting married like we’re both agreeing on it. Well, I think I decided like thinking like, yeah, I’m cool with that too. So, it’s kind of like, you know, it’s [00:15:00] kind of.

Amazing that there are women, at least in South Korea, they’re standing for themselves and empowering themselves, like putting the foot down, like, no means no. We’re not, we don’t want to do this. We don’t want to have kids. We don’t want to get married. You can’t make us. Because we are our own person. So I love that.

I love that so much.

Gissele Taraba: And I think, you know, going back to the whole people pleasing, that really goes against convention and it really goes against the expectation of, well, like if you’re not there for that, then what’s your purpose. Right. And it makes me think of the women’s suffrage movement. There was a time before women got the vote where they, they literally stopped society.

They, they stopped going to work. They stopped cleaning. They stopped. Cooking, right. And now in our today’s world, it’s much more balanced. Like my dad, my husband has all does all of the cooking. Like my dad used to do all the cooking as well. Like, so we kind of have like, uh, a different relationship in the sense of it’s not traditionally [00:16:00] male, traditionally female.

but many families still have that traditional role. And so it’s interesting to see how women across the globe are really gravitating towards that. And I’m not saying that’s the answer. I mean, you’re in a relationship, as you mentioned, you’re just not making the choices that have historically been made.

We are rethinking, I mean, traditional conventions. And I think that’s kind of the, the epitome of non people pleasing. Wouldn’t you say?

Tina Juan: Oh, no, it took, actually. Now you’re saying it. Thank you. I didn’t realize that because like, for the longest time, I guess, for me, when I think of like people pleasing, I think of like, not saying no, like verbally, not saying no, always saying yes to people saying yes to that.

Everything that people ask of you always say yes. But I didn’t think about that of like, no to having [00:17:00] kids, no to having getting married or just certain things that I don’t abide to. That’s not attained to people pleasing, because

Gissele Taraba: It goes against the grain, it goes against the norms and it makes people really uncomfortable because, and I think that’s, that’s where people are really having an emotional reaction to that, you know, and I always say that, you know, I noticed someone else sometimes is a yes to myself, right?

So, sometimes when I’m very honest about when I don’t want something, it’s because I’m saying yes to me, yes to me. Putting my boundaries. Yes, to me, not doing something I don’t want to do. Um, but you know, like, I don’t normally struggle with that except my kids. My kids just like, sometimes when they’re like, they like, they keep going and going.

I’m like, oh, okay. And so that’s where I’m like, okay, so maybe I’m not as. Clear my boundaries as it comes to when it comes to my kids, you know, I don’t know what [00:18:00] it is about them. It’s just, I think I, I, it’s that element of wanting to make, to see them happy. But that doesn’t always equal their happiness, right?

Like you mentioned,

Tina Juan: right? Yeah. Cause every time our kids, my pets, they want something different. Like I just want to, all I want to do with my cats is just smother them with love, like hold them. And then you’re like, Oh my God, like, I know their faces, like, get away from me, like cats in particular

Gissele Taraba: must be like, Oh, even my dog too.

I do the same thing. And my dog’s like, I make my dog uncomfortable and unconditionally loving

my dog’s like, Oh, when is this going to be done? Okay. There’s

Tina Juan: a dog too. My dog where he would like, uh, he would growl at me cause he knows a certain like, you know, they know what’s going to come after. Cause like, I, I’m a very petite person, but then like, I project strong emotions.

So that’s also something to recently too, is me not caring anymore. Cause I have so much energy as a person, like positive, either way, like [00:19:00] positive, negative energy, like very intense energy. Some growing up, I was told to just tame it. Like calm down, relax. And so I would always keep check of like how much energy am I putting out?

It’s best to be small. It’s best to shrink as a people pleaser. It’s best to do that. But now I’m. letting myself air out being more playful, being more like energetic and just like play and not caring at all. And yeah, it just feels like, and that’s why I’m able to love my, my babies. My girl is more often because I’m

exuding all that energy, you know, they’re like, Oh my gosh, too much.

Gissele Taraba: And thank you for mentioning that, because that’s another aspect of people pleasing as well as asking people to extinguish their light so that they can be average so that they don’t trigger other people in showing their light. And so I think that’s allowing ourselves to do that is another aspect of people pleasing.[00:20:00]

Um, and one that maybe isn’t probably as common, like you mentioned, it’s like always saying. Yes. And never saying no, but extinguishing our own light for other people to please them is an aspect of people pleasing. No, it

Tina Juan: is. And yeah,

Gissele Taraba: I wanted to know, so what helped you shift from that to one where you say F-it, I’m doing it anyways, what helped you shift where some of the things that you did that really kind of said, even if it’s like evolving, what are some of the things that really helped you go from that?

people pleasing to one of like, I’m going to step up into my power and doing it anyways, even if I’m afraid.

Tina Juan: Yeah, I, um, so after that comment, right, the passivity was unattractive. The first thing I did was, well, first thing I did was cry like a bunch. I cried and cried. And then eventually I kinda just sat with it Cause I had two [00:21:00] decisions, Right, two decisions of like agreeing that I will forever like forever be existence of people pleaser.

This is my route. This is my existence to be alive right now is to make other people be more important than me. Right. And the other decision was. Yeah, like you said, fuck it. No, that’s not me. I’m not that person. Um, I know I want to be assertive. I want to do it. And so right after that, too, was I did was a lot of journaling, having a very quick call with a counselor.

So as a resource where you talk to a counselor, very quickly, just briefly on what you are feeling. So it’s not like the suicide line, Whereas like, you know, like you’re boiling, like the analogy, the water is boiling, but the water is simmering and you’re just feeling some type of way, but you just want to let it out.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. And what, what did you call it? The warm line?

Tina Juan: Yeah. The warm line. They have [00:22:00] each, each state has their own.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, I didn’t know that. Wow. That’s fascinating. That’s really supportive. That’s amazing. Go ahead. Sorry.

Tina Juan: I recommend all your listeners to, like, use the warm line for anyone to use it, because it really helped me get through that, that, not, it’s not really that dark, but just like that really muddy time for me to figure out where I want to be in life, you know, in regards of the people.

Pleasing. And then over time with that to my self awareness came about one with like going through graduate school and journaling and reading my inner child came was more like in my face when there’s a certain something going on and I see her I’m like, Oh, Okay, what do I do now?

Because, I call her tiny Tina, even though we’re the same height, we have not, we have not grown at all. That’s hilarious.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. Tiny [00:23:00] Tina. Yep.

Tina Juan: So like tiny Tina, she’s like, she’s at the ripe age of 15 and that’s where my inner child is. So whenever there’s something going on and I don’t want to do something, she starts getting anxious.

And so I see her sometimes. Of like bashing herself or like anxiety going back and forth, making sure that we need to please the people around her at all times.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Tina Juan: And so I really had to sit down with her multiple times and telling her like, you’re okay, you’re safe.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Tina Juan: You don’t have to do that. You don’t have to do what other people want.

What do you want? And just sitting with her with it. And sometimes she understands at the level that the intellectual level that she is a 15. She’s she understands. And there are other times where she gets the best like she has more energy, where, [00:24:00] where, which means that her stubbornness comes into play.

Gissele Taraba: And

Tina Juan: then I, so like sitting down and sitting with her and being compassionate with her, sometimes it doesn’t actually work. So I just have to be like, not the mean parent, but like, I see you, honey, I see you, but just sit your ass down. We’re going to do this. We’re going to do it anyways. And just come with me.

Like, you’re safe. I think that’s also like, she’s still scared and anxious, but I’m still giving her compassion. And at the top of that, it’s like the firmness of the age I am now. Just sit with me. You’re fine. Just sit down. Yeah. Like it’s not that I’m leaving her behind. She’s still here with me. I’m just like, okay, just sit down with me.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re helping her feel that in, in sort of dip her toe in into that safety, right? Um, and I love that you mentioned compassion and I love that you mentioned the inner child healing. Um, just as a strategy I [00:25:00] myself have used, uh, to feel safe for the longest time I didn’t feel safe. And so I have really had to reparent myself around feelings of safety.

Um, but sometimes it just feels so strong, those feelings of fear, right? And so to say, you know, you are safe, I got you. You’re okay. I got you. I think it’s really, really powerful, really powerful.

Tina Juan: It is. And it is also really fun to, to kind of see the thing that West. It’s like, it’s like real time right now.

It’s like seeing how much she trusts me now than when I first started because there was a constant, the battle would be for days in the beginning of like, I really want to do this. I really want to do that. No, no, don’t do that. Mom’s going to get mad. People are going to get mad. Whoever is going to love

Gissele Taraba: you.

Tina Juan: Yeah, or like you anymore. But now she’s like, okay, I got okay. I’m still scared. But I know you’re you keep me safe. And also like what I’ve [00:26:00] learned recently to go to therapy as well, is I didn’t realize there’s the bot my mental compassion, like mental compassion versus body compassion, in the sense of like, telling her like, you’re safe, you’re, you’re know, it’s gonna hurt you that you’re going to be your own person.

All the affirmations, but I forget to, to soothe my body because her body is feeling tense because of all that. And so now that what I do for me is like squeezing my arms, squeezing my legs, just giving that sense of hugging her. Hey, you’re here. You’re safe. Like, and then, then my body starts to relax more and then I’m more straightforward, but yeah, it’s a, it was.

It’s still, of course, I don’t think we’ll ever go away where I’ll have my inner child just banging at me at the door. It’s like, get me out of here. I don’t want to be here. I don’t want [00:27:00] to think. It’s like, you can’t do this. Can’t do that. No. You know, but just letting her know like, hey, you’re good. You’re good.

I’m here. I’m here with you. Let’s hold hands. And I literally hold my hand, like my right hand. Also, also a quick note too, like I grew up having a disability. So my right hand, um, I have cerebral palsy. So my right hand, it’s. It’s affected. So there is, you know, some limitations to it. So I utilize that as my, my younger self.

And then my left hand is like, not affected. So half of my body is affected. My left side is good. My right side affected. So I would hold hands with her, hold my, hold my hands. And she’s like, I got you you’re safe. And then she’s saying, yeah. And so I love that.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, I absolutely love that. Um, and what you said is really so powerful and so important.

So I want my listeners to, Don’t take a note of it because that physical component is so important as we [00:28:00] saw in COVID people were so separate, they couldn’t touch one another. There was, there was so much isolation. And like you mentioned in compassion practice, there’s the touching of the chest, you know, like you put your hand on your heart or on your leg, or you can, you know, like rub your shoulder.

And what it does is releases oxytocin. And so we can do that for ourselves if we don’t have anyone to do that for us. And it does kind of soothe that it’s, it’s like physical touch is so important. So when you can’t get your mind in order, you can do that physical touch. And that’s like, it’s a great strategy for people to use to be able to bring themselves back.

And I love that you are able to offer that to yourself as if you’re two different people, but it’s, it’s, it’s just one you, but the fact that you’re able to hold your own hand and be there for yourself is so powerful and so important because people don’t realize that they can do that. They always think, Oh, it has to be external.

Somebody has to love me externally outside of me. Um, [00:29:00] I wonder what your thoughts are about, like, you know, people pleasing and all of those sort of behaviors. Ultimately, it’s about us wanting to be loved, right? Part of about that self love, um, did you feel was really in need when you were people pleasing?

Tina Juan: To accept me for who I am, really, that’s where it is. It’s like I said earlier, I have a lot of energy, really big energy, like just I just last week I went to the beach with my partner and he he’s more of the grounded type so he’s walking. For me, I was like bouncing everywhere going in the water, out the water, outside the water, jumping into the sand.

Throwing up sand, throwing up water, like, just like being a kid again, you know, being really playful and just enjoying myself with the energy that I can encapsulate. I have so much energy, like, I have a [00:30:00] very small, I’m only five foot, five feet. And so I just, you know, You know, just accepting me as me that’s like the big component for me.

It’s like, can you hold my energy if I let it out? Like, can you hold that space for me to give my energy out, you know? And then, right. Thankfully. And I love it that my partner can hold that whenever I exude it, like he can’t, he can’t go to that level of course, but he’s okay. But he puts his glasses

Gissele Taraba: on for the wattage, right?

He puts his glasses on. He’s like, lets you shine bright. Right.

Tina Juan: Yes, and just like yes, yes, and so yeah, yeah, so it’s just like that is accepting me as me and not trying to mold me into taming, dimming, diminishing my energy of what I can take because I can run like a freaking mouse

going on a wheel.

Gissele Taraba: And [00:31:00] then that’s awesome to have that much energy. It’s, it’s amazing. It’s amazing. one of the things you mentioned, um, is that, you know, sometimes you have fear in stepping forward and shining your light fully. How did you deal with that fear? That’s those fears that sometimes come up.

Tina Juan: I only when I’m exhausted, like I’m tired of going through that motion all the time, the fear going, and I literally, I literally just say, like, just fuck it, I’m just gonna do it.

I’m just gonna do it. I’m like, I’m tired. I’m tired. Like, that’s where the when the I’m so tired of fear running through my mind

Gissele Taraba: So

Tina Juan: yeah, so I think for me, I just put myself into like exhaustion and then I’m like, okay, well, I’m doing it. And then here I am. And I was like, I just did it. Awesome. Why didn’t I, why did it take so long?

Gissele Taraba: Is it terrifying in the moment,

in the moment when you’re doing it?

Is there, what helps you get through [00:32:00] that fear in the moment?

Tina Juan: In the moment? No, I don’t. I just like, oh. Cool. I just did it. And then the fear comes back. Okay.

Gissele Taraba: But then you’re like, but I just did it.

So you’re okay.

Tina Juan: Yeah. Like the action just is done. The action is done. But then now the fear comes back of like perfectionism and that’s where it’s like, Oh dang, did I just, did it look good?

I don’t know. And so that, then the fear comes in and I have to do the whole cycle again.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. Perfectionism. People pleaser’s ugly cousin. Yes. So

Tina Juan: ugly.

Gissele Taraba: So, so terrible. I don’t even know where we got this concept that we had to be perfect. That you know, like it’s just, it’s such a disservice. We’re all perfectly imperfect and that’s what makes us all beautiful and different.

Um, what role did perfectionism have in your life in terms of the, how it influenced the people pleasing? Oh,

Tina Juan: it stopped me [00:33:00] from doing things that really made me happy. For example, so dancing is like one of the things I loved.

It makes me so happy when I dance. It doesn’t matter how it is. It’s, if you get my body moving, I feel my body feeling lighter. Like it’s one of those things where I’m not thinking of anything, but. Myself in that moment of freedom, happiness, joy, and the perfection came into it was when I was younger, we were like in a church group, and they had like a auditions for dancing like being like dancing for Lunar New Year.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah,

Tina Juan: because of my disability, I decided I can’t do that I can’t perfect the dances because of my disability like it’s going to be wonky it’s going to look a certain way. Okay. And so I just been simmering on it. Like I have to be perfect. I have to be perfect in this dances. And if I don’t do it, then I can’t do it.

And so I ended [00:34:00] up not doing it. And I regret doing that because of my perfectionism coming in. It was like, it has to be perfect if I do it and I can’t do it because of my disability, then it’s best for me to just step away and not do it. And so it’s just like, Yeah, it’s one of those things where it’s just annoying for me looking back, but then also reminding myself that I can start today.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Tina Juan: Just dance again.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Tina Juan: Yeah. Just have fun. Just enjoy myself.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Did you, uh, ever experience the need to have to forgive yourself for some of the choices you made or didn’t make?

Tina Juan: Hell yeah. All the time. Can you talk a little bit about

Gissele Taraba: that? Oh

Tina Juan: as I was saying earlier, my inner child is 15 years old, right? Yeah. So there’s already that huge concept of when you’re in high school, your first impression is first key, the first thing, like, yeah, for sure. [00:35:00] Yeah. Right. And so she still has that concept. She still has that mindset of it.

And so there are times when there are easier things that are not the core, like my onion thing of an onion, like anything that’s like really close, like to the core, I still haven’t forgiven myself yet. Like, things that really are my core values, my core beliefs, I still haven’t forgiven myself for the decisions I made for those, like, for example, the dancing, like, dancing is one of my core beliefs of what brings me joy and happiness, like, I can still dance today, but I regret not doing that when I was, I think I was 12 or 13 years old, I regret not doing that because I could have been a dancer today, you know, like short showcasing what is like to be a dancer and also have a disability at a young age, because when you’re dancing, you’re younger and you’re dancing like you have more flexibility, [00:36:00] more room to like really try out different moves.

I’m in my 30s, I still can do it, but then it’s just different if you were younger and trying it. But then, like, if it were to be closer to the outer layers of my onion, like outside my core values, it’s easier, it’s easier to forgive. Like, eventually, I, like, for example, I didn’t, actually, like, well, today, too, actually, today, I feel guilty because I asked, a woman to price match an item that I saw online that was different from the in the store and I didn’t tell her like, thank you for going through this trouble to doing this.

I was like, thank you for the receipt and then walked away. I was like 10, 10 steps away. I was like, I didn’t turn around. I could have turned around, should have turned around, but then I ended up just kept walking in that I called the worm just before our session about it, [00:37:00] feeling, I don’t know if I can let this go.

Like, it’s so hard to let this go, because it’s going to eat me. It’s like, I didn’t appreciate what she did for me, going through the hard work to price match. And sometimes I’m trying to tell myself that it’s okay, you’re safe.

Gissele Taraba: You

Tina Juan: can learn from it.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah,

Tina Juan: I think also tying with the people pleasing is we tend to take a lot of things personally.

Gissele Taraba: Hmm. Yeah,

Tina Juan: because Yeah. Oh, go ahead. I think you have to say something.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, no, no. I, I, yeah. Like the personalizing part of it. I was just going to ask in terms of like, um, have you ever, have you considered, um, maybe saying that what you wanted to say from an energy perspective, like not physically, but emotionally, like, you know, like the same way [00:38:00] that you hold your hand of your 15 year old.

Um, would you consider like thinking about that same circumstance and just saying it and experiencing it as you would have wanted to experience and getting that opportunity to say it from an energy perspective?

Tina Juan: Um, what do you mean by that? Just like,

Gissele Taraba: what I mean is, so, you know, when you speak to your younger self, right?

Like, technically you’re interacting and you’re soothing some of the old wounds. Yes. One of the things I like to do is that when I experience something that I struggle with, um, for example, or, or I struggle with someone, um, and I can’t speak to them physically, I will speak to them energetically, like spiritually.

So I will actually go into meditative state and then relive that experience in the way that I wanted to experience it. So in your case, it would be like me reliving that and actually. Saying thank you, thank you and sending them that love from [00:39:00] the state of where of that meditated state. Um, so, so that we, um, number 1, it helps me to release it.

Um, because then I’m not stuck in that loop of like, oh, I wish I had. And secondly, it actually surprisingly has. Worked like, it’s very strange. I don’t know exactly how it works, but it’s, it’s worked with me with challenging students. Like, when I’ve had, I’m a prof in contract faculty and when I had a struggle with a student.

Uh, long story short, like they were sending me some angry emails and I was like, you know what? I kind of took a pause and just said, you know, cause I was starting to stress. I was like, starting like, oh my God, do I have to redo this marking? Do I have to talk to the dean? I’m contract faculty. Is this going to impact?

And I was like, you know what? I’m going to stop. What do I want to experience? And I said to myself, I want to experience this working out for me and for the student. It’s working out with ease and grace. First, I’m going to address my own difficult feelings with love, [00:40:00] send myself love and send the student love.

And then I emailed them back and say, why don’t we chat? Like I had previously sent an email explaining it. That wasn’t good enough. I said, why don’t we just do I’m happy to chat with you because you’re important to me. Hoping to make the time to explain and go through absolutely step by step how I came up with this mark.

And I sent that email, went to bed, but went to bed imagining that everything had been sorted out. I don’t hear for a few days and then I get an email saying everything is resolved. No problem. No need to meet. You’re a wonderful teacher, have a wonderful life. And so I’ve had instances where I’ve actually been able to resolve conflict, if you may, this way, like it just from an energy perspective.

Um, so just let me know if you would be interested in trying it. All you’d have to do is just put yourself in a meditative state and relive the event and just basically say, thank you. And in circumstance, let’s see how it goes. Maybe it doesn’t work for you. Maybe it works for you, but if it helps, um, [00:41:00] I know it’s helped me, um, sometimes let go of things because I will get caught in a loop and I’ve had like in the past, I really had bad anxiety and obsessing and panic attacks and so on.

And so I find that doing that helps me let it go and kind of go, Oh, okay. I’ve looked at your thoughts.

Yeah, I’m down for it.We’ll try it out. If it helps, it helps. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. I, I’m a big believer that, you know, we pick up things from many different people and if it works for us, it works for us or it doesn’t, it doesn’t.

Tina Juan: I think also, I think I’m coming from what you’re saying too. Like, it makes sense. Cause the same time, like you’re really being back. Say, thank you. for, I think that also, like, as you’re talking, I was like, just thank you for doing your best. You know, doing your best of what you could do in that moment.

Yeah,

Gissele Taraba: I love that. Yeah, saying that to yourself. Oh, that’s so beautiful. I wanted to talk about, you’ve been mentioning it a little bit. Um, and you mentioned it, uh, I think in your intro, which is [00:42:00] really about the importance of play. What role has play played really, uh, had in your life and how it has helped you sort of transform.

Tina Juan: Give me a minute because I like, it’s like, it’s just resonating really deep within me because I realized how important play is, how important it is, it is in my life because I just feel like my most authentic self as an adult, you know, it’s, I mean, there’s a difference between as when you’re playing as a kid versus playing as an adult, because, you know, we know when is the right time to play and when is not the right time to play.

And it’s so important. It’s so important for me because it exudes my energy.

Gissele Taraba: It’s

Tina Juan: hand in hand with how much energy I could play. [00:43:00] How, like, you really, like, you see me bouncing off the walls for a good 10 minutes playing and just being goofy. And also one of the things too is that I love making people laugh.

Making people feel at ease. Just like, hey, you’re allowed as an adult, you’re allowed to play. I’ll play with you if you want to, like, I’m cheering you on, I’m supporting you, let’s play, because that’s also the thing what I’ve noticed too as an adult, we forget to play, we forget to be one. But we always love doing.

I love bouncing off the walls all the time and exuding so much energy and just like, and then you know, knowing that I will come down off that ladder and just like, okay, I’m chilled out. It’s like, it’s like, one to 100 for me. But um, That’s kind of where it is for me in regards to play because I want to play as much as I can.

Like one of the things I love going to [00:44:00] is one of those, um, you know, industrial buildings. Sometimes they have like the water spouting out from the ground, like a bunch of them just, you know, for like, Art and whatever. I run, I will want to run through that and then get myself wet. Like, I don’t force put back electronics away so that it doesn’t get wet, but just go into the water and then not caring and just enjoy life.

And then, you know, because we are meant to live fully and wholeheartedly and not be very joyfully. Yeah. Yeah. And it feels I just all I want to do is just the people around me. Just, you know, Especially as adults, like, play as often as you can. Not, don’t tell anyone to tame your light, to break down your light, because It is different, like, my energy is really high, so not everyone can reach my, to my level, but like, reach to your own level of what brings you joy, [00:45:00] and play with that, play as much as you want, like, if you used to play Like you love playing in the dirt.

Go play in the dirt. Who cares? Your feet, your hands are dirty. You can wash it with soap and you’re fine. Do things or like jumping into a pool, even with your clothes on, like you saw something cool. I’m going to go jump into it. Like the pool, for example. And then, or like, like, just like letting, let yourself be free and not be so scared that, Oh, I’m an adult.

I can’t do that. Oh, what do people think of me when I do this? Just do it because. You deserve it. And you want to be happy as an adult and not like specifying like adult because we forget.

Gissele Taraba: Thank you for sharing that. Um, I really resonated with that. I, uh, I know this girl, um, she was in business class with me, so she started a play based business for adults.

Right. So she does that. Yeah. I

Tina Juan: love that.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Um, and so I, [00:46:00] I had booked my husband and I kind of like a play section because I wanted to do something for a date. Um, and as I was doing, as we were playing and all that stuff, I realized that I had a lot of those perfectionism in terms of like, so she, at one point she’s like, color outside the line and I’m like, , but it’s gotta look beautiful.

And then like all of those restrictions that we put on play, that it has to look perfect and it has to look right and it ha we have to color inside the line and, and all of those things that limit creativity and limit joy. And so. So thank you for reminding me of that because I see it in my kids. My kids just want to play and they’re fun and they’re not thinking this has to be perfect or this has to be a specific way.

And it’s so, so important to remind each other just to play a little more. Um, and just to let go of all those old stories about like, you were just being silly or immature. Um, and just how important it is. Enjoy. [00:47:00] Yeah.

Tina Juan: Oh, and also like, I want to emphasize, like, I really want to play with women. Yeah.

Especially women, because growing up, you know, where men are allowed to be roughhousing, give no shits, running around not caring, because they’re like, oh, they’re just boys will be boys. That’s like the old saying.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Tina Juan: Yeah. Boys will be boys, but then girls are like, oh, no, you have to be

Gissele Taraba: mature, like,

Tina Juan: We’re told to grow faster. We can’t play. We can’t play in the dirt with the boys. We can’t roughhouse and be all dirty or whatever. I mean, I think nowadays, the generation now, I think it’s gotten, I’m assuming gotten better with like allowing girls to be like, do whatever they want to be.

But I think I think culture also plays a part in this too, because at least in my, in my culture, a lot of Vietnamese, I’m Vietnamese, a lot of Vietnamese women, we don’t play a lot. Like it’s frowned upon to [00:48:00] play Tina, you’re weird. Or like, Tina, you’re annoying because I’m exuding my energy in the way that I know makes me best.

And I just want to emphasize that for women’s they play as much as you want. Really don’t, don’t tame your light I don’t like, don’t play because the guys, your husband, your partners, whoever, like, they’re willing, they’re more allowed to play, like, if you want to play, go play. And I think the biggest part is that, don’t worry about what people think of you.

I think that’s, that’s, I think like, perfectionism is like, there, but I think the part of like, caring what other people think of us is so important. Why we don’t play a lot as adults.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. And as you were talking, I, I remembered what you had said about the sense of responsibility.

Yes.

Like women sometimes have such a huge sense of responsibility.

It’s not responsible to play, it’s not responsible to do that. So, yeah. So thank you for that. Yeah. That’s really powerful. [00:49:00] Right.

Tina Juan: Thank you.

Gissele Taraba: I wanted to ask you a couple more questions. Yeah. The first one is I’m asking everyone on my show, how do you define unconditional love?

Tina Juan: I think I think of a conditional loves like,

this is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable because I’m just refraining from my personal experience. My unconditional love is just smothering your loved ones no matter how they don’t like it. In a way, like mother,

Gissele Taraba: mother. Yeah.

Tina Juan: Yeah. I’m a smother mother. It is like, and I think I got it from my mom too.

She tends to smother us to the most like unconditional love she could give us to. So I think I learned it from her. And so it’s just like. You know, but putting that to like on top of smothering is also like give them so much so much like affirmations, give them compassion, empathy, and holding space for any [00:50:00] everyone around you.

Like, I think that’s the also the biggest part is like holding space. Yes, you can smother but then like there’s a boundary, of course, you should not. Cross all the time when they’re like, get off of me. I don’t want this anymore. Yeah,

Gissele Taraba: exactly. No, you love.

Tina Juan: Yeah. It’s like, but they’re like, you know, just holding space and just.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. And just, yeah. And just encouraging them to play as adults, as they’re growing up and your friends and family to say, play and play Yeah. Beautiful. So my last question is, where can people find you? Where can they, where’s your website? Where can people work with you?

What are you doing? What do you want to share with the audience?

Tina Juan: Yes. So honestly, right now I have my podcast. So the Courageous Inner Beast is a place where. Women are able to share their courageous stories.

Beautiful.

Can

Gissele Taraba: you tell us just a little bit more about Um, both.

Tina Juan: [00:51:00] Yes. So, like, for the Courageous Inner Beast is just a place for women to share their courageous stories, like, unfiltered and uncensored.

Really just becoming your powerful self and then me holding space for you. Because as we were talking in this whole conversation, we don’t want you to shrink. We don’t want you to like, be small, like, you know, like, If the way you share your story is close to your heart, it’s authentic and honest, and I can feel that from you.

It’s like you’re being your true self and I want to hear more of it. And my personal, my personal curiosity will come out of it and my own reactions come out of it. And so that’s all stories. If you want to feel inspired, feeling that you want to resonate. We just go all for it, you know, cause we’re all, we’re found in like Spotify Apple full and all the little ones that you could find like iHeart, Amazon music.

You have find us all that you want to listen to stories. It’s mainly just stories as the platform, but yeah, please check it out as like, we want you to listen to it and just hear more of it.

Yeah. Oh, [00:52:00] that’s lovely. Yeah.

Thank you so much, Tina, for being with us. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Um, such a great conversation and, uh, please people go check it out and join us again for another episode of the love and compassion podcast with Giselle.

Gissele Taraba: Thank you. Bye bye. Bye, everyone. Thank you.

View Details

Gissele Taraba: [00:00:00] on today’s podcast. We’ll be talking about the power of mindfulness to help young children flourish and become their best selves.

I’m speaking to Ali Smith, Atman Smith, and Andres Gonzalez. They have been teaching a social emotional curriculum for over 20 years in Baltimore and now across America. And they have helped over 200, 000 children with their work, their work with their holistic life foundation. Has been been featured on making a difference on the NBC nightly news, CNN and CBS, as well as, Oh, the Oprah magazine, the Washington post up worthy, mindful magazine, yoga journal, Shambhala sun, and many, many more places.

Their book, let your light shine. mindfulness can empower children and rebuild communities has also been featured on. Good morning, America. Please join me in welcoming them to the show. [00:01:00] Hello.

Ali Atman: Hey, how are you?

Gissele Taraba: I’m good. Thank you so much for being on the show. for

Andres Gonzales: having us. Oh,

Gissele Taraba: so much. I think that the work that you’re doing is so impactful, especially for the future of education.

And can you tell the audience a little bit about how you actually got started on this work?

Ali Atman: I guess the start came from My brother and I got introduced to meditation as young kids from our dad. He was into transcendental meditation. So he would get us up in the morning and we would meditate before morning cartoons. And you know, it was meditation. Woody Woodpecker, Scooby Doo.

Well, actually Scooby Doo, then Woody Woodpecker. Woodpecker. Off the school.

Gissele Taraba: And,

Ali Atman: And self realization fellowship church based on Kria yoga. My dad, our dad got into the practice from our godfather. He was one of those people that got into yoga in the 60s and never ever got out of it. As we got older, I guess, around the time I was in [00:02:00] 4th grade, Atman was in 2nd grade.

Our parents got divorced. And we lost our meditation practice, but as we got older and, you know, like, life happened, we were finishing up college. We were looking for something to do, we met Andy at the University of Maryland, college park, the 3 of us, like, pondering how we’re going to spend the rest of our lives.

And I’d say 2 important things happen 1, our dad sat us down and told us not to go get jobs in the start of business. He was all about entrepreneurship. And not, you know, I mean, it’s like 3 people of color getting caught up in the the world of the corporate world where you hit that glass ceiling when you look a certain way, and you can’t advance beyond that.

Then he also had a lot of friends that were getting fired and losing their pensions and getting downsized after decades of, like faithful work to certain companies that they were working for. So that happened, and then we got back into to yoga talk. Godfather, he was always trying to get us back into it, but we kind of dove deeply into the practice.

And the combination of of that yoga practice from uncle [00:03:00] will, our godfather, the entrepreneurship push. Of of our dad, and then the 3 of our desire to help humanity and the planet to seem like there was a lot of suffering going on and a lot of pain. And a lot of people taking advantage of other people in the environment.

It’s like, it was like that perfect storm. And then like the stars aligned and the holistic life foundation was born.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, amazing. Sounds like your dad was a visionary because when you look at the world of work right now, there’s so much going on. I think that from a larger perspective, larger consciousness, we really are shifting how we do work.

But I think what’s, what an amazing vision. go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead.

Ali Atman: When you were talking about entrepreneurship and I did like. All of his friends thought he was crazy for telling us not to go get jobs because it was like, you know, it’s like, they were like, he paid for private school.

The boys are in college, they both have degrees. You told them not to go get jobs. Like, he’s like, no, no, he didn’t, you know, he was like. He was like, no, I see down the line, like, this is going to be what’s going to serve them and then. Probably like, 15 years into it, like, all of his [00:04:00] friends were like, yeah, we probably should have told our kids not to go get jobs either.

I mean, because it was a struggle at 1st and they were like. You know, like, see, we told you they should go get jobs because he was supporting us financially. Like, our bills and the organization early on, but then once we figured it out and things started to grow, like, all of his friends wish they had done that with their kids as well.

Atman Smith: And and his friends not only didn’t become went from doubters to supporters, but they actually started supporting us financially. As well, too, and now. Whenever we have a fundraiser, they come and support and tell us how proud they are. So it was a huge shift, but it took a really long time.

And honestly, you know, our dad, he was a stubborn dude. So, you know, he didn’t once ever fail at anything. And I think we were 1 of the things that he didn’t want to fail it. And, you know, he supported us, like, I always say for, like, 8 years. And then, you know, that’s when, you know, we finally got, you know, national recognition with the yoga study, the 1st yoga mindfulness study on the effectiveness.

Of it on urban youth through Johns [00:05:00] Hopkins and Penn State. And then after that, it was like a snowball effect of support financially from foundations and from media outlets you know, and then after the media outlets and the, and the study, all his friends were like, Oh, yeah, man, he was on to something, you know what I mean?

So, yeah, we definitely humbled and appreciate, you know the support that you know three pillars gave us, it was him our godfather and, you know, our mom, she made sure we ate like she would drop off packages of food because like, we didn’t have two pennies to rub together for the first eight years.

So, you know you know, through the combination of that tripod, it helped support our tripod.

Gissele Taraba: That’s, that’s so powerful because I was, as you both were talking, I was thinking 20 years ago, mindfulness and yoga, especially within the school systems and so on. It wasn’t as popular as it is now. It wasn’t so you know, embedded within, you know, you had Jon Kabat Zatt and all these other people that kind of made it [00:06:00] more popular.

How was it in the beginning received when you were when you were talking about mindfulness and yoga, especially as a form of really addressing some of America’s biggest issues like poverty and, and, and violence.

Andres Gonzales: I mean, like you said, it wasn’t very common, at least not, not as much as it is now, you know, you hear mindfulness everywhere. You’d see yoga and media and all over TV shows and movies. I remember when we were first working with the kids and we would even say the word yoga, they’d look at us like, Yogurt, Yoda, you know, like they didn’t, yeah, Yoda, right.

The word wasn’t familiar to them. It wasn’t like it was now. So I think initially it was received with skepticism from a lot of the kids and a lot of the programs that we did because it wasn’t as popular as it was today, but I think that all saw the transformation that occurred within us with our practice and we embodied the practice [00:07:00] of something that our teacher really, really emphasized.

You know, you had to be authentic, you had to actually be a scientist, do the techniques, do the practices on yourself, see what the results were, and we saw what they were, we saw, you know, what it, what good it could do, not only for us, but our community and for mankind in general. And I think that Us going into these communities and these programs that we had and just being the practice, you know, when we say, Oh, isn’t something do it something you are.

I think that was something that was evident in the three of us in our practice so that we’ve resonated that energy so you know the kids may not have been down to do it or been skeptical but I thought it’s lame whatever I don’t want to do this. But we were pretty cool guys, and they saw that we were like, man, we need to try to do this.

And usually you know, for all the listeners, I’m sure there’s a lot of people out there that once you try it, you know, once you do this, the experiment on yourself, once you take some breaths and you start incorporating some movement or some meditation into your life, it can almost be [00:08:00] instantaneous that you see and feel those benefits.

And, you know, you become more present in the moment instead of being in the past or the future, you start to learn to love your real self more, which in turn allows you to love others. And that love and that compassion that Ali was talking about that we saw that was missing in the world, it grows. And I think it’s something that we saw when we were working with our first group of kids and throughout all these 27 years now is, you know, you just really were just kind of planting the seed and reminding people.

These. Techniques and practices and this ability within themselves, you know, to let their light shine, like that book says. And I think that we just wanted to be the conduit, right. To keep passing on these practices and these techniques to help out. As many people help themselves, you know, people oftentimes say that we save people’s lives or we help, you know, we don’t do any of that stuff.

We’re just reminding people and they’re the ones that are taking control of their own lives and learning how to self [00:09:00] regulate and how to be more present.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. First. I just want to say thank you for planting seeds because I think all of the people who planted those seeds way, way back.

We’re helping humanity. We’re helping us get to this point. So it must’ve been difficult to go eight years without seeing the fruits of your labor. But so thank you for holding on to that stubbornness and the vision. You mentioned some of the outcomes that you yourself experienced. You, you mentioned a few, can you share a little bit?

bit more in terms of how it changed your life by implementing this mindfulness in yoga, especially since it seemed, and I could be wrong, that you grew up in a neighborhood that was more like violent and more poverty stricken. Is that accurate?

Atman Smith: It is. I mean, honestly, when we graduated from school, we moved back to the neighborhood that Ali and I grew up in and you know, it was, you know, I remember one weekend three people got murdered within our two two block radius.

You know, the open air drug [00:10:00] market, dilapidated housing, they call our neighborhood like the blue light district because there’s like surveillance cameras like on every other corner with like blue lights, like the police siren or police lights. You know, yeah, it’s very depressing neighborhood and a very scary for some folks but.

You know, in the midst of all that stuff we were blissing out and it was because of the practice. You know, a lot of our friends used to come to our neighborhood and ask us like, yo, like, y’all are broke, y’all don’t have no car, y’all live in one of the worst, most dangerous neighborhoods in America, and like, y’all happy, why the hell are y’all happy?

And we would return the question and be like, well, you know, y’all have great jobs. Y’all married, y’all live in great neighborhoods. Y’all have nice cars and you’re miserable. You know what I mean? So it must be something to what we’re doing. And honestly, we realized from that point on that we needed to share this with other people, along with the fact that, you know, [00:11:00] when Ali, Andy, and I like big Star Wars and like Marvel comic book, you know heads and, you know, we were always trying to figure out, you know, like, man, we want to be super packed superheroes so we can, you know, save the world.

You know, during that time, that was like, you know, when we were in our last year of school, we were also searching for, like, what is the point of life? Why are we here? It has to be more like Ali usually says, like, it has to be more than just graduating, getting a job, getting married, having some kids. Retiring and dying.

There has to be more to it. So we have read a lot of books and, you know, whether it’s, you know, philosophy creational theories ancient history astronomy, astrology, and, you know, we were, we’re looking for what the purpose of, of our existence. And, you know, the more we read, the more questions we had.

And they would always say the answers are within the answers that within, we looked at each other like, man, how the hell do you go within? And during that [00:12:00] time, our teacher, who’s me and Ali’s godfather you know, he had been trying to get us into yoga for the longest time. And, you know, we just thought he was crazy.

Like we would be sitting around his Island in his kitchen and we would, you know, be drinking a Heineken or something and, you know, watching basketball. And, you know, in the midst of us watching basketball and enjoying ourselves here, like he he’d like point to the Heineken and be like, you know, you’re putting toxins in your body.

You need to learn how to get them out and start doing a yoga breath called Kapila body where, you know, it’s, they call it the breath of fire where you get. exhaling three breaths per second and that like detoxifies your body. And at that time, you know, we would look at each other like, man, this dude is crazy and get up and leave.

But, you know, I think that once we saw, once we were looking for a teacher and looking for the answers that are within, you know, we realized how much of a gem he was. And we actually saw like a yoga manual that taught you a lot of like meditations [00:13:00] where you know, you could like, you know, it was esoteric stuff, like maintain your body without eating.

What, what, what meditation can you do if there isn’t a hospital and, you know, other stuff like that. And we’re like, yo, yo, can make you become like a superhero? And he was like, well, you know, that’s part of it. That’s a distraction. But honestly, what it is, is to unite your individual self, which your universal self.

And, you know, the other stuff are just byproducts and all of us are like, yo, can you teach us? And, you know, what he said is that you know, you got to make me 2 promises. You have to wake up at 4 30 in the morning, an hour, half before a sunrise to practice with me. And the 2nd thing is, you got to promise to be teachers.

And honestly, that’s the reason another reason why. Besides, you know, seeing people suffering is we made a promise to our teacher that he, you know, he said he would teach us any and everything if we decided to be teachers. And the 1st population that we taught where the people in our community, because there was so [00:14:00] much suffering so much undiagnosed trauma and, you know, like Andy said, like, we always say is that, you know the best thing to do is, you know.

Do not have people dependent on you. Our teacher was like, man, I don’t want no devotees. I want to create teachers. That’s what we did is we wanted to create teachers. So we empower people with the practice of how to be the practice, what the benefits are and how to practically apply it into your life.

And, you know, it started off in our hood but then it’s expanded, like you said, around the nation and around the world.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. You said so many amazing things. I just want to highlight a few. Number 1 being that it’s happiness, joy, bliss. It’s an inside job. You guys can show the way and you’re the light keepers.

But people have to be willing to be able to do that work. And I think that’s what people sometimes struggle with. Like sometimes we want to be saved, but the truth of matter is we’re only going to save ourselves. And so you demonstrate that beautifully in saying you can be in a quote unquote terrible environment and still be blissing [00:15:00] out.

Or you can be in a yacht you know, in Capri and have all the money in the world and still be. Miserable, because wherever you go, there you are, right? So I think that’s really important. I wanted to mention, I am so into esoteric and as far as our mind and our thoughts can, can take us. So if you’re interested in more supernatural stuff, Lee Holden, who is my Qigong teacher, has done a little documentary on like, Like being able to, to, you know, to see beyond it’s really quite a cool, it’s it’s called supernatural or something.

And Dr. Joe Dispenza also does that stuff, I just thought it would be interesting in terms of like seeing what. How far we can go in terms of bending reality and so on. But I want to go back to your comment about the impact.

Because as I was thinking about your work, I was thinking, you know, have young children I’ve been trying, I like my husband and I’ve been teaching them to love themselves and to into practice. Just, they’re just not into meditation. So how do you engage young people in a way that [00:16:00] gets them to move away from that resistance and that distractibility, especially now with electronics to wanna embrace the kind of work that you do?

Ali Atman: So I think it’s, it’s, it’s different teaching your own kids versus teaching other people’s kids. And so I know when my boys were born, when my oldest son was born, we had been teaching kids for probably a little over a decade, no, 2006, we probably teaching kids for about five years. By the time my, my oldest son was born, people were asking me, like, well, how are you going to teach him?

Like, when are you going to show him yoga and show him how to meditate and all these things? And it. It wasn’t really that it was just me practicing around him and waiting for him to ask the right questions to decide that he wanted to take that journey with the practice. So I’ll be sitting on my mat doing the breath of fire doing side create.

He would just come and sit on my lap and stare at me or he was. Meditating, we kind of sit down next to me on the on the couch or whatever. So it’s just like he was around when he was asking those questions. So I think when you’re dealing with your own kids, you have to make it something where you wait for them to be [00:17:00] ready for it and not use it as a punishment.

Make it fun. And mold the practice, not around what your practice is, but molded around what’s going to benefit them and what they’re interested in when we’re in schools. It’s a little, I mean, it’s, it’s a little easier because, you know, we show up in a school. We’re not their teacher. We’re not the parents.

Like, we’re the fun guys from the outside that are coming in to show them something new. And it’s a, it’s a lot of the same things make it fun, make it engaging, show them how it’s going to help with their struggles. And meet them where they are. A lot of kids, most, I feel like a lot of people that want to teach mindfulness in schools or yoga for that matter, they’ll go in and they’ll go in with an idea of exactly what they want to teach, or they’re teaching from a curriculum or they have like they walk in with their class structure.

If you walk in there, you’re not going to give the kids what they need. If you walk in with that mentality, we always say you got to ready to throw it all out the window and listen to the kids because kids will tell you what they need. Like, if you listen to them with your ear, your heart [00:18:00] and energetically, they’ll tell you exactly what they need.

And you can give them that. That’s what when we train our teachers at the holistic life foundation. We don’t use curriculum. We don’t use things along those lines. We give them a toolbox where they can go in and just teach them how to really be present and listen. And a part of that is coming from having your own personal practice.

Like when you have your own personal practice and you can feel and experience that stillness and that peace and that inner love and that interconnection, like it starts there, like you said, it vibrates out and then you can start to feel it from the people around you, but you can also feel when those people.

And you are suffering. And if you listen to them, you’ll know what you’ll know what to present them with so that they can practice to heal themselves up. So I think it’s, it’s, it’s similar, but it’s just a little, it’s more, it’s definitely more difficult teaching your own kids than it is teaching other people’s kids.

Gissele Taraba: Just to add a little something else. You know as far as meditation, a lot of people just try to like jump straight into the meditation when they try to teach people or teach kids. And, you know, sometimes that can be more harm than good, that style of meditation that you teach because, you know, [00:19:00] when kids are just sitting in silence, they get lost in their own thoughts, traumas can pop up and, you know, all that type of stuff.

Atman Smith: So, you know, what we do is we kind of have a skeleton. When we teach practices in general, contemplative practices, we always do something physical to kind of get rid of that restless energy and then make their body a safe space. Then we do some breathing practices to kind of still their mind and then they’ll be ready for meditation.

But we don’t, you know, we have more of a guided meditation where we’re kind of leading them to a specific path instead of the silence that will let their mind wander. So, you know, until like, Ali was saying, until they actually develop their own practice, it’s really good to kind of have that blueprint of physical practice, breathing.

And then meditation guided meditation. And then once. They kind of have that adapted. Then you can kind of let them do their own thing. And, you know, through repetition, even if there is silence, they’ll hear you in their mind, leading them through the practices. So they still have a kind of guided meditation you know, [00:20:00] while there is silence.

So, you know, that’s pretty much besides what Ali was saying, that’s kind of how we approach it.

Ali Atman: Yeah, and if you think about it, what I most talk about is a very trauma informed way of presenting the work, but. I mean, the 8 limbs are already trauma informed. If you follow him, I mean, like, that’s the way that yoga set up.

Like, you talk about the embodiment with the Amazon and he is like, what are you doing in your life to buy the practice? You do the movement to make the body a safe space to do the breath work to slow the mind down, and then you jump into your meditation. So it’s a science for a reason. It’s, it’s, it’s.

Sustained for thousands of years for a reason because it works if you teach it the right way. I think people try to like pick pieces out of it or teach it in a way again, back to the curriculum thing. They try to go like, well, this is going to be day one and this is going to be day two and this is going to be day three.

And you have to do this type of, you know, I mean, but like, you know, the way it was originally set up, it works. It’s got to be adapted for modern times a little bit in its presentation, but the way [00:21:00] that it’s structured, it works. If you do it that way.

Atman Smith: Yeah. Pat and Jolly was on to something. Do

Gissele Taraba: Andres, do you have any thoughts?

Andres Gonzales: No, they covered it. Okay,

Gissele Taraba: cool. Yeah. So I, what you were both talking about is I think what Andres mentioned earlier, which is that embodiment, right? When you’re embodying that, you can get a sense of what people need in the moment and give them what they need rather than what you come with in terms of your framework.

And so I think that’s really important. I also wanted to mention Ali, you’re a better parent than I, than me. Because I, I kind of had to learn that later on. I, I learned about self compassion and self love and meditation and Qigong and movement, all that stuff later on. And so I kind of had to learn what you just mentioned, which is allowing the kids to have their own journey and allowing them to be curious.

And if that’s not their journey, then that’s not their journey. And so that’s, I think that’s, that’s a beautiful way to put it into be open to [00:22:00] sharing what they’re interested in. I found with my kids in particular, like they kind of want to explore their own things, which I, for me, it means they’re safely secure because they’re like, eh, I don’t want to do that.

I want to do something else. And it’s like, awesome. Wonderful. Can you tell me a little bit more about some of the some of how this program is embedded within schools? You mentioned you kind of come in and do kind of like a pop in. And the reason why I asked this question is because I’ve had experiences where you drop in and you do something and then you leave, but how can we weave this as part of the natural school system and, or in different environments in a way that would make it?

Andres Gonzales: Sustainable 1 of the worries that I always have is sometimes when you have these programs in there, the budgeting, the budgets get cut. Like, these are the first programs that go. So how do you weave it into the system so that even if you are cut, it’s still kind of within the culture so much so that it could continue? We have a wide variety of programming, right? I [00:23:00] would say one of the main ways we weave it in is the way that we lead the practices. Similar to how our teachers at DUST, hey, I’m not teaching students, I’m teaching teachers. We do that we use a reciprocal teaching model. So when we go into the schools and we do these programs, whether it’s the full school wide initiative, whether it’s little pops and pop ins, whether it’s residencies, they were always teaching the kids to be teachers.

So I remember when we used to have our after school program, there would be 90 kids in the gym, the three of us. And it wasn’t us leading the practices, it’d be a little kindergartner in the front leading through some salutations or doing the asanas for everybody. It’s to make them embody the practice and empowers them too.

So now they are these leaders and they go out in their communities and they make friends and they change stuff. And similar in the schools, you know, you start finding that the kids, once they start seeing the true benefits of these practices, That they’ll raise their hand and say, hey, teacher, we’re [00:24:00] about to take a quiz.

Can I do lead everybody to the stress breathe? And they’re the ones leading. So, even if we step away, sorry, the puppy’s the one,

Gissele Taraba: even

Andres Gonzales: if we step away, then they’re still. Running the programs, they’re the ones that can facilitate the practices because it’s really not that hard once they learn how to do it.

It’s like you said, I think you get it right on the nose, the culture or the school or whatever facility starts transforming and changing. And this becomes common to see the kids doing some breath work or meditating to learn how to self regulate and using these practices. So, we’re really, we don’t want people to rely on us.

We want to come in. Guide and lead as we can, but when we step back. It’s kind of a a machine self that’s rolling and it just becomes part of daily routine like, Hey, at this school now we breathe or we meditate. And I think that’s what really allows it to stay sustainable and make an impact, not only [00:25:00] inside the school, but in the surrounding community as well.

Cause then the kids go home and they’ll see mom and be like, mom, you look stressed out. Sit down. I’m gonna give you some breaths. And then it just transforms the entire area.

Ali Atman: I love that. One thing that we look at his train the trainer programs, like, there are those people who are in school buildings who are who are adults.

That are that connect to the kids very, very well, they’re good at. Diffusing situations, they’re good at connecting with the kids and get them to kind of feel safe enough to share. We’re good at going into the building and adding mindfulness and yoga and breath work and meditation to their skill set so they can make a bigger impact in the school.

So, even if the budget does get cut. Like, they’re already in the building, so they might, you might find those mindfulness champions that are that that will actually be training to become mindfulness champions in the building. So that, like. You know, they can they can still do all they’re doing, but they’re also empowering the kids with practices to help them with mental health issues to help them heal from trauma to deal with anxiety to deal with [00:26:00] that lack of connection.

All those things that kids are suffering from these days, and it’s become 1 of our major ways of helping people around the country because, you know, it’s kind of unfair for us to go into a school and we go there for a week. And like, you know, we make the practices really fun. We’ve been teaching them for a long time and everyone’s all excited about mindfulness.

And then we go away and they’re like. What the hell do we do now? Like, this is like, what are we supposed to do? So I think we want to make it sustainable. We want to make it stick. We want to make it effective when we’re when we’re gone. So I feel like our train the trainer is probably the most impactful thing that we can do.

To help people outside of direct service, but, outside of Baltimore, and when we’re going in other places, it’s that train a trainer where we can. Find those people and train them up to just enhance what they’re already bringing to the school community.

Gissele Taraba: Wow, that that is so important because what you’re talking about is that kind of bottom up approach and sort of middle up approach as well.

Does the leaders ever take any of your programs? Because I [00:27:00] definitely as a leader, I would see that as something that I would want to take to because I mean, I know people that are vice principals and so on and they get very stressed out. So, to be able to breathe before you’re managing something difficult would be great.

Ali Atman: So, we made the mistake for you for over a decade of going into a school and only working with the students there and that doesn’t work because the teachers are more stressed out than the students in a lot of cases, because they’re dealing with their own life stress. And they’re dealing with the secondary trauma and the burnout they’re dealing from working with the kids.

So we started working with teachers for a while, and it wasn’t until we started our Mindful Moment program that we started working with the principals. And we realized that that’s where we had to start every single time. You got to start with leadership. Because it all trickles down, whether it’s that stress domino of, like, starting with the principals and going to the teachers, the students.

Students bring it home to the parents. So like it’s coming from everywhere. So we know that we won’t walk into a building if we can’t work for it with everyone in the building. And you know, we, we do, we’ve done leadership outside of schools as well. [00:28:00] City Council President Zeke Cohen here in Baltimore started this Healing Cities Act, where he’s trying to make Baltimore, well he’s kind of made Baltimore a trauma informed city.

Gissele Taraba: Nice.

Ali Atman: Oh, it was, we did trainings for around, like, trauma informed yoga mindfulness for the mayor for the city council for the heads of all the city agencies. We’ve done deep dives with parks and recs with the libraries. With the state’s attorney’s office with the housing authority. And next we’re going to work with all the firefighters in the city.

So, like, you know, like, there’s there’s a space for it in the community outside of schools because adults are suffering to not just the kids, but it’s got to start with that leadership every single time. And if you can get a leader that’s brought in, and then, like, totally sold on the program, the program’s not going to go anywhere.

It’s always going to be there and it’s always going to sustain and keep growing.

Gissele Taraba: And I love that you’re also creating leaders within the school as well. So even if that leader changes, you’ve got kids that can really step up into the leadership. And so you are shaping the future, which is [00:29:00] amazing. I wanted to ask about, you know, in the information that was shared with me, you talk about that your program has, I mean, so many amazing outcomes in terms of, you know, like anxiety and stress and self esteem.

One of the things that stuck out to me in particular was about. Self care and self love. Can you tell me a little bit about how they differ and about how you’re working with that?

Andres Gonzales: Yeah, I can chime in. So I think one thing we noticed a lot, you know, when we were working with the kids, Initially, you can see how we’re giving them these practices. Like you said, everyone’s really focusing on how the kids can, you know, how it’s going to impact them in school. So can they focus better concentrating more removing ruminating thoughts to be present this, you know, dealing with conflict in a more peaceful manner.

So these conflict resolution skills and You know, that’s like the focus on everyone. Like, how can we get the kids to do better with these programs in [00:30:00] terms of school, education academics. And, and it was funny, we would see the main thing that was really happening was they learned to love themselves.

And that is what the real transformation where the real transformation occurred. Cause they learned to love themselves. And now they’re looking at themselves differently, they don’t see themselves separate from everyone else, they start to feel more interconnected with all their peers, and they’re not just part of the west side of Baltimore, or the city of Baltimore, or the state of Maryland, or the United States, but they’re part of everyone and everything.

And I think that when they started learning to love themselves, it allowed them to see other people. And being more empathetic and compassionate to others, and they learn to love others more, and they start seeing, oh, well, you know, someone, Johnny’s going through something today and empathize with it more, because they’re like, I know sometimes I go through that too.

And I think that self love is really, really important for everyone in the world, but [00:31:00] in particular, youth, when they learn to love themselves and they start seeing themselves in everyone, every other thing. And it’s like, well, why would I treat anyone or anything negatively or, you know, with hatred when they’re just another version of me and they start loving everyone and everything.

And that’s why I think everything starts to gel. I think you need to learn to love yourself first, right? That self love before you can take care of yourself, right? Because if you don’t know who you really are and you’re not loving yourself, then you can’t really take care of yourself. I think then we, you With the practices they start and some of the concepts that we discussed when they start learning about, you know, taking care of themselves, you know, that’s not selfish.

Right. You know, one phrase that we use a lot is that, you know, people oftentimes are giving from their well right but they give from their well until it’s empty. And that’s not what we should be doing as human beings. We need to take care of [00:32:00] ourselves, do those things to make. I’m always like makes our hearts of soul smile, you know, the things that we really love to do and take care of ourselves.

First, our cup is overflowing and that’s what you give from is the overflow. So then you’re always functioning at 100 percent if not more than 100%, right, but most of the time people want to just give and give and give and they you know they’ll set themselves on fire to keep other people warm. And that’s not a way to live or to function.

And I think with these practices, as they start to learn how to love themselves, part of that is the understanding, Hey, I need to take care of myself as well. And if not, then I’m just giving from a half empty cup and no one wants to do that. You’re not really giving fully. So I think, I hope that answered your question a little in terms of the absolutely did.

Yeah.

Gissele Taraba: And it, it reminds me about the whole you know, airplane thing. You’ve got to put your own oxygen mask on first before you can help others. Otherwise you’re no good to anyone. And I’m also very appreciative because I saw the whole concept of self love [00:33:00] on the outcomes that you list. And I think that is so important, especially for men, especially young men, because I think.

And this is just my perspective. I could be wrong. I think we really do a disservice for young men in particular. I think that we as a society, we’ve kind of done, like, don’t ask for nurturance. diminish you’re crying and your vulnerability and focus only on anger and focus only on like connection through sex.

And so I think that by allowing young people to be okay with their vulnerability, to love themselves and to accept themselves. And especially for our boys, I think it’s so important. So I am very grateful to have seen that on your information. Any thoughts about kind of in particular self love for boys?

So

Ali Atman: it’s funny as you were saying that I started smiling because it was like, if you look at the way that our generation was raised, like just the movies and the TV shows and like, you can’t cry and you, you know, you got to push down all your [00:34:00] emotions. Like we were set up for failure. You know what I mean?

Like we were set up for like emotional failure. Just because of the way that, that, you know, our parents were doing the best they could with the information they had, but it was. You know, I feel I like the fact that this generation. You know, they’re under the right circumstances, they’re learning to be tough.

But they’re also learning to be in touch with their emotions as well. Like, I feel like at some points, they can get carried a little too far and then, like. The toughness is taken out of, like, life in general, but I mean, like, you do need resilience. You do need to be mentally tough. You do need that strength.

You can’t crumble at everything that happens to you, you know what I mean? Like, so I think there has to be that balance of the toughness and being in touch with your emotions to be able to express that. And I think the kids that are, that are coming up now do have an opportunity to do that. Again, under the right circumstances.

But again, there has to be that balance because there, there are a lot of kids that do that. I’m not gonna say they’re too in touch with, I [00:35:00] think they’re just, they’re, they’re not in touch with their, their tough side and or they’re the resilience that, that you need to get through life. ’cause life is gonna be difficult.

Life is going to knock you down and you can’t just focus on being sad and being knocked down part of life is focusing on that getting back up and not only getting back up, but getting back up stronger every time life does knock you down because it’s going to happen over and over and over again throughout your life.

So, I think it’s, I think it’s that balance. And again, I’m just happy to kids are there and we do talk about self love with the boys, I mean, because there’s a reason. Isn’t it like boys are so angry. There’s a reason that boys are so disconnected. There’s a reason that the murder rates are high in some cities because a lot of these young boys don’t have any regard for human life.

And you can’t ask them to care about someone else’s life to be nice to someone else to care about the environment to care about their city if they don’t even care about themselves so like. Why am I going to care about them? And I don’t give a damn about myself. So [00:36:00] like once we can take the time for them to, and that’s one of the most beautiful things about what we bring to the kids is that it’s the, we give them the ability to connect with themselves.

Because like most of the kids we noticed were only connected to their physical environment, which can be very bleak, can feel very helpless and very hopeless most of the time. So like, if that’s all you’re connected to, I’d be mad too. I would be pissed off at everything too. I would be like, you know, I would just be angry all the time.

But once with the practice, you connect to your true self, they connect to that. Let your light shine. You connect to that. You connect to that higher purpose. Like you connect to that what all the things that are like stirring inside of us that most people ignore. Uncle will used to always say that we’re ignorant of the light.

Not that we’re not that we aren’t aware of it, but just that we ignore it. We’re so focused on The outside world, and like, you know, once you can turn them inward and they can start to feel that that peace and that stillness, they connect to something greater and like, oh, I’m not just this, [00:37:00] this in this neighborhood.

I’m connected to the entire planet, and you see them start to change you see them start to interact with themselves differently. And then once they start to interact with themselves differently, you start to see them become more compassionate, more loving and more empathetic to the people around them.

And it’s beautiful to see because we’ve seen it with so many kids that have started off as angry little kids in our program that are now helping out their community that some of them have worked for us. Some of them still work for us, and they want to give to the world and they want to go explore outside of their neighborhood and outside of their city and they’re going all over the place.

They’re doing. These amazing things because the gift that was given to us by Uncle Will, we gave to them and they’re giving that gift to other people, that gift of like connection to your true self.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Thank you so much. That, that was so powerful. Kind of forgot what I was going to say. Oh, actually I do remember.

You know, one of the things you mentioned is resiliency. And I think that’s what you’re teaching. You’re teaching mastery [00:38:00] because if you can take your focus away from the environment, all the challenges and everything and focus inward and from that place, find peace, find happiness. And then focus on your thoughts to create your dream life.

Ali Atman: Then you have mastered this experience. And I think, like you said, we teach children to focus just on the physical, look at your environment. This is reality. This is real. This is all that stuff. And so they focus so much outwardly that to bring them back to themselves is such a gift, such a gift. As you were saying, one thing Uncle used to always say to us that still echoes in my head daily, constantly, several times a day, it’s like, it’s easier to go from the inside out than it is from the outside in.

You would always say you start your In the light every single day, because then you can you have you have your frame of reference in truth and in your real self and then you can go out into the world. Do it that way. But it’s harder. Like you were saying, you’re going outward. You’re going out where you’re going outward.

And then to remind yourself to come back inward, but start your [00:39:00] day in the light and your day in the light. And because it’s a lot easier to go from the inside out. That it is from the outside in. Oh, he would always tell us that.

Gissele Taraba: Oh, you need, you need to make some uncle Willie stickers and give them to the kids so that they get uncle Willie says, like, I think that would be amazing.

Cause then they can put them on their backpacks and so on. Anyways, I, yeah, I wanted to read this quote because I think is super, super important. It’s actually what drew me to want to have this conversation. And that is a school replaced detention with meditation and the results are stunning.

Having worked in child welfare. I have observed children who dysregulate because, you know, school is a hard day at the office and Mother’s Day, Father’s Day, all that stuff is very triggering. kids having the cops called on them. I’ve seen teachers that weren’t able to manage behavior and that their only response is a punitive response that then kind of trickles down.

Atman Smith: Can you share a little bit about how your program has helped the school [00:40:00] shift from punitive to supportive outcomes? I can start off, guys. The program that you’re talking about is our Mindful Moment program. And the premise of the program is you know, for 1 we have a alternative to suspension room.

I guess that’s what everybody was talking about changing detention to meditation and that wasn’t our aim. That’s just what happened. We created space and the oasis in the school. Where it’s like, you know, oil diffusers, Himalayan salt crystals, fountains, everything to make, like. A serene place in the school, natural lighting plants, you know, all that type of stuff when kids.

Are in crisis instead of them getting punished, like you were saying punitive action. They come to our room. They can either refer themselves. Or teachers or administrators can refer them to come down. To our room where we have it staffed by staff. And, you know, when the kids come in there, you know, we actively listen and mirrored and empower them as people always talking at kids and never listening.

So that kind of, you [00:41:00] know, tips off a little bit of the anxiety and the stress. When as soon as they come into the room then we talk to the kids about stress stresses and how the stress plays out in their body. Is your teacher stressing you? Is it a peer that’s stressing you. It’s something that you’re thinking about that happened earlier in that day.

And when you do get stressed. How does it play out in your body? Do you clench your fist? Do you clench your jaw? Do you fold your arms? Do you shift your weight? Do you play with your hair? And then, you know, we explain that to them and then we go through a breathing practice or a meditation and, you know, that kind of helps them achieve homeostasis.

And then we ask the kids, the students, the young people are like, so the next time you see that stressor or you feel that stress playing out in their body, do you think that you can do this practice, which you can see can kind of calm you down? And, you know, the kids, like, yeah, I’ll try it and it may, they may not try it right away, but eventually they do try it.

And they learn how to self regulate and I think 1 of the beautiful things about that part of the program is the numbers start off really, really high at the beginning of the year. [00:42:00] But as a year progresses, they dwindle the frequency of kids coming to the room. Doing those down next to nothing, because the kids do learn how to self regulate.

And then, you know, we have like a school wide practice too. So it’s like a tier 1 tier 2. Tier three intervention you know, where if you know, at the beginning of the school day in elementary schools, it’s at the beginning of first period in high schools, it’s at the end of first period to give the kids a grace period to get to school.

And, you know, we’ll do a series of movement in the elementary schools breath work and meditations in the high schools. You know, they don’t wanna look they don’t wanna stand out. So it’s just like breathing and meditation. And then we also go into, like, do push ins into classrooms where, you know, we pay attention to when kids are bouncing off the walls, like, after lunch or during transition periods.

And we, our staff go to the room and, you know, work with, you know, the small cohorts in the classes. And then we also have that mindful ambassadors program where we train a certain percentage of the student population to help [00:43:00] infuse these practices into the school day. So, like, during testing time.

They can lead their peers to certain breathing practices that can help with test anxiety and, you know, basically, it just infuses these practices into the entire school. I think 1 of the most beautiful anecdotal evidence that we have of the effectiveness of this program is, you know, at the high school that we started the program at Patterson high school in Baltimore.

They were known for, like, fights and riots, honestly, they won like that crazy world star hip hop site a lot for the amount of fights that they had at that school. But, you know, as we infuse this program into the school, the principal had no idea the impact that it was making on the school climate until he went to another school and saw how hectic the school was, how frictional it was, and, you know, how unempathetic the students were with each other.

And when he got back to his back to the school he was going to go to a mindful moment room and, you know, staff, like I said, they do push ins into [00:44:00] classroom. So the door was locked and, you know you know, no kids to get into the room yet. There was a student sitting out in outside of the room doing breathing and meditating and, you know, he

Called us up. He was like, Yo, this is program is amazing. Not only was it amazing that the kid was doing breathing and meditation outside of the classroom and you know, our classroom was right outside of the most frequented hall space in the entire school. He said it was amazing that you know, he’s like last year if a kid was sitting with his eyes closed, meditating in front of a room, a kid might have punched him or kicked him in the face.

But now it’s just a common occurrence. It’s just become part of what the school is. And, you know, that, in turn, has that shift in the school climate is the reason why the detention numbers went down, the suspension numbers went down, attendance went up, test scores go up, and everywhere this program is run with high fidelity, the same thing happens.

And, you know, I think that’s why, you know, people always refer [00:45:00] to it as a program to change detention to meditation. You know, all we did was just kind of bring these contemplative practices into the school and help empower these. Kids with self

Ali Atman: regulation. And I think just adding to what Atman was saying, I think above and beyond changing the attention to meditation, most of what we were doing was changing the students because like, like the kids that are, the kids have vibrated in a different way than than people, than most other people on the planet.

And the schools are set up in such a way that it’s not serving them. Like you feel that you forget there’s no real creativity. Like most schools don’t have art or music. The kids are supposed to sit in a classroom the entire day. They’re not doing any movement. A lot of schools don’t have gym. They don’t have recess.

Everything’s punitive. So you do this, you go to the office, you do this, you go get sent home, you do this, you go get sent to detention. And, you know, the kids need. Something different. So I think what we were doing was we were giving them the skills and the tools to be able to deal with the way that the schools were set up that weren’t serving [00:46:00] them.

So, like, we were giving them practices to you know, that inner peace that’s within every single one of us, we showed them how to find it and then we showed what it felt like to drift away from it, but then we’re showing them how to bring himself back to it. So, like, they always had a skill. They always had a place to go.

Whether it was outside of them, whether it was their thoughts, whatever was just kind of destroying their peace, we were giving them tools to get back to that peace and that stillness. So. I think that’s what the main thing was, like, we, what we’ve been talking about empowerment and reciprocal teaching the whole time, but we’re all about.

Empowering people with the practice so that they can heal and save themselves. So I think that’s what a big part of this mindful moment program is changing. Like, it changed attention to meditation because the kids were changing. They were different people. They weren’t. So they weren’t so impulsive, they weren’t stuck in sympathetic dominance.

You know what I mean? There was the things that were going on on. Where they were healing from the trauma they’ve been through and they were learning to deal with the anger and anxiety and the stress and the depression, the things that are making them act out and it just shifted their, [00:47:00] their, their worldview and the way they viewed themselves and treated themselves.

And how they treated everybody around them

Atman Smith: and as Ali said earlier you know, we don’t just work with the kids. We work with the teachers as well. So, you know, another aspect of the program is, you know, working during their teachers, professional development days, teaching them practices not to bring into the classroom.

But for self care, there’s so much turnover and burnout and secondary trauma. That they face that, you know, not only, you know, do the teachers have like a Herculean task. To teach the students stay on on course with the curriculum and, you know, help the kids with their issues and, you know, all this other stuff, but they’re dealing with a lot of secondary trauma.

They don’t know how to release. And, you know, what our staff do is, you know, during the professional development. And then when they have their planning periods, we go in there and work with the teachers and administrators to kind of help them de stress release that secondary trauma and be more present.

And, you know, that, [00:48:00] them coming from, A lens where they’re not as aggressive to the students also helps with that, you know, changing the classroom in the school environment. And I think that that’s why this program is so impactful because not only does it work with the staff. But, you know, it helps empower the teachers and administrators as well.

Gissele Taraba: I just want to acknowledge because having worked in leadership for many, many years in a not for several not for profits. I know how difficult it is to change a culture. I know how easy it is to make it negative, but how much work and attention and intention it takes to make a culture that is positive and loving.

How much time do you guys often spend within like, let’s say, give me just an example of how much time would you spend in a school in order to be able to have some of these outcomes?

Andres Gonzales: I think it varies. You know, a lot of times it depends on where the school’s at. Some schools you’ll [00:49:00] go into there and they have instructors who are already leading mindfulness practices or doing some breath work. Administration’s really down with it. You go to another school and they’ve never done any of that type of stuff.

There might be some pushback from the adults, like, oh, you’re taking away my academic time. I need all the time I can just to, to teach and I don’t have time to do this mindfulness type stuff. So I think it really does varies on a case to case basis when we do something like the mindful moment program.

It’s a school wide initiative. So you’re going to see the results quicker because the entire school is Being involved in this and you have stuff on a loudspeaker where you have the kids or the teachers saying, Hey, ignore that. It’s still being heard being part of the day. It’s present throughout the entire school year.

Sometimes when we go into schools and school residency, it’s just us in there for a week. You know, the idea is to teach your training, get them to start implementing the programs during transition times or whenever they can. It just may take longer for it really to impact the culture. [00:50:00] So I wish I had more of like a, it’ll take four or four doses of this and three of this and this many weeks and you’re good to program.

But it really just varies, you know, where we’re going to where their level of mindfulness or being present practices are. And us just trying to be there to support and be a resource for them to start incorporating all these practices into the school. So it does become, like we’ve been saying, just commonplace and the culture of the school shifts.

And it’s like, when we’re going through adversity, we do breathe it.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Andres Gonzales: And language, everyone’s reinforcing the practices, that’s when you really see that transformation occur.

Gissele Taraba: And I think what you said is very important because you’re meeting people where they’re at instead of what Ali was saying, you’re not coming in with your, here’s my box, fit into my box.

It’s like, okay, Oh, what do you need? All right. So maybe we’ll do this and we’ll implement this. And I think that comes from all the years of wisdom that you’ve been doing it. I’m going to give you your flower. Some of the most amazing outcomes you’ve had are obviously emotional wellbeing, [00:51:00] resiliency, decrease in stress and anxiety, a decrease in school suspensions, healing trauma, increasing compassion and empathy, especially for people at risk.

Are there any outcomes that you found surprising?

Ali Atman: I, are you, do you mean for just in general or for instance, schools?

Gissele Taraba: Anything

Ali Atman: I’d say how much I’d say some of the most surprising work for me has been in the drug treatment centers with adults that we’ve worked in. Just how much, you know, like. People who people use drugs for me to reasons, and they use them for a myriad of reasons, but, they’re looking for something, you know what I mean? They’re looking for something to take away a certain amount of pain or bring some joy, whatever they’re doing. But I think just seeing them realize that there’s something inside of them that they can they can find stillness, they can find peace, they can find happiness, they can find joy.

And then how much they take to the practice and want to share it with other people and how much you see them brighten [00:52:00] up almost instantly from like. Learning about the breath, learning about some movement, learning about like deep spiritual forms of meditation to connect them to that light within themselves.

And then just seeing how it shifts and transforms. And I think that’s always is one of the places I enjoy teaching most is adult treatments drug treatment centers for adults because of like the almost instant shifted, like even after the first class, like you see them, they’re like, damn, like, okay.

So I’ve been looking, whatever I’ve been looking for, I’ve been looking in the wrong places and for the wrong things. Like it’s, it’s inside of me and I’m going to keep coming back to learn how to tap into it. And it’s just, and it’s amazing to see because they do go home and they do teach other people. I remember there was one drug treatment center that we were working at that the clients loved us so much and we’re getting so much out of the practice that the last day, no one showed up, like we had a contract for, I think it was like a few, several months in the last, they were expecting like a big, like, Hey, and then we were like, where is everybody?

It was like, they couldn’t say goodbye to you all. Like they loved. What you all were teaching so much that they were just like, they had to [00:53:00] just they stepped away and that was the end of it. We didn’t see him again, but like, you know, bumping into people out on the streets of Baltimore. Cause Baltimore is not a huge city and they might, and they’ll stop us and like, Hey, well, I’m still using this practice.

I’m still using that practice, but that’s I wasn’t, I wasn’t expecting that much of a shift with that population. But, I mean, it made total sense once once we saw it, but I don’t think I was expecting that when we first went into the drug treatment centers for adults.

Gissele Taraba: Thank you so much because I think you mentioned something that is really crucial for people to understand. I think this war on drugs and everything we’re looking. We think that that’s the outcome. Then we got to decrease drug use when really that’s the coping. You gotta address the real problem, which is the reason why people are using drugs, you know, like people wanting to escape their own reality or wanting to tap into something else that’s beyond what they’re experiencing.

And what you’re doing this is you’re giving them different options, which is, I think, so important. A few more questions if that’s [00:54:00] okay. I wanted to ask what you thought unconditional love means to you. What does unconditional love mean?

Andres Gonzales: I can start off. I would say you know, unconditional love for me is that you’re loving and you’re not doing it for a purpose. You’re not looking for results or something to come back to you. You’re just loving because that’s kind of what we’re supposed to do as human beings anyways, right?

There’s a form of yoga that our teacher you’d always talk about. We always talk about bhakti yoga and respect. We would say, you know, it’s the easiest form of yoga and it’s the hardest because it’s the easiest because you have to love everybody. That doesn’t seem that hard, but it’s the hardest because you have to love everyone because that means you have to love those people that Are the murderers and, you know, the douchebags, right?

And the people that are, you know, so it’s hard

Gissele Taraba: to love

Andres Gonzales: everyone, but it’s easy because it’s love, right? Love is great. And so he would take the word respect and he’d say real way to look and respect is to break it into two [00:55:00] words re like again, inspect, like spectacle. So they, to look again, and he would say, when we look at people, we see them for the physical bodies.

And then when we respect them, we look again and we see the light within them, which is the light within us. And we love them ’cause they are just another version of us. And I think that’s, for me, what real unconditional love is, is just loving because I’m supposed to love, there’s no, there’s no, I’m not doing it for a purpose.

I’m not doing it to receive anything. I’m not doing it to get anything. It’s just loving. ’cause that’s what we should be doing as human beings. ’cause really we’re just reflections of each other. So. My mom is one that’s really, really embodied that practice, I think. And she just gives and gives and gives and loves so much.

She could be stranger than anyone. She just loves it. She does it. She’s not trying to get somebody to love her back. She just is like, this is what

Gissele Taraba: I

Andres Gonzales: think is right. And this is what feels right to me. Just loving [00:56:00] because we all love anyways. I

Gissele Taraba: love that. Just to add

Ali Atman: little bit to that as you were saying it, I was thinking about definitely think about Vata yoga and what Andy was saying, because Uncle Will would always talk about that.

But just, I feel like unconditional love is, has to start with loving yourself unconditionally. A lot of people get, I mean, like the outside world tears you down, but like that negative self talk and that inner critic can tear you down more than anyone. Outside of you you have to deal with those low vibrational thoughts and all that’s bringing you down.

But I think when you can love yourself through all of that unconditionally. And not just the good parts, people only want to love the good parts of themselves, but you got to love. Those, those, the kind of quote, unquote, dark or bad parts of yourself, those low vibrational parts of yourself. The parts that you might not like that much.

But those parts of you have taken you on your life journey as well. Like you wouldn’t be where you were without those, you know, the yin and the yang. Like you need the light parts, you need the dark parts, you need all of that to make [00:57:00] the whole. So I think you got to really, really love yourself in that way.

And then you can start to see that love. In the people around you, but I think another part of that unconditional love is part of it has to be loving with boundaries. You know what I mean? Like, you can’t love so much because people will see people who are loving and they’ll take advantage of them. And they’ll get over on them, but I think you have to have enough self unconditional love for yourself.

You can love with those boundaries when, you know, like, all right, this person’s getting over on me. I’m not going to stop loving them, but I’m just going to love them at a distance. I mean, I can not have them in my energy and in my personal space. They can be gone, but I can still send them love. So I think that.

All that ties into that unconditional

Gissele Taraba: love. Wonderful. I could listen to you guys like literally all day.I was wondering if as the last question is, can you share about yourself? Where can people find you? Where can people work with you? I know you have done a little bit of work in Canada, I think with some of our indigenous communities.

So I know you can come to Canada. So those schools that are looking, bring these guys or other [00:58:00] places. So please. Let people know where they can find you.

Atman Smith: I mean, you can find us on our website. H. L. F. I. N. C. dot. O. R. G, hlfinc.org.. subscribe to our newsletter. It’ll let, you know, where we are around the nation. We actually are expanding our mindful moment program into 3 new cities, 4 new schools.

2 in Milwaukee, 1 in Chicago and 1 in Denver. So that that’s really exciting. Like you said, we have our satellite program in the Akwesasne territory in a Mohawk reservation where, you know, we’re working in upstate New York and in Canada and the surrounding counties. Also you know, we take a deeper dive in the esoteric practices in our for profit organization called the involution group.

So you can check us out there involution dot love, involution.love.. We have this really great 30 day course called spiritual strategic playing the 8 paths to happiness. And, you know, check our book out let your light shine [00:59:00] and, you know, just, just follow us. We’re on Insight Timer also as the involution group, if you want to get some audio practices from us.

And yeah, that’s about it. And, you know. Just, if you want to get us out to your city, just reach out to us and, you know, we can figure out what that looks like.

Gissele Taraba: Wow. Thank you so much for taking the time out to have such an amazing conversation with me. I’m so, so grateful that you’re able to come on cause I am appreciative of your time.

Thank you for joining us. So another episode of the love and compassion podcast, with Gissele, and join us soon.

Atman Smith: Bye.

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[00:00:00]

Gissele Taraba:

Don’t forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content. Today, I’ll be speaking to Savio P. Clemente, a TEDx speaker and stage three cancer survivor who embodies the journey from stumbling to soaring. His experience battling cancer a fire within him, shaping not only his character, but also his mission.

Empowering aspiring leaders who have overcome medical adversity to unleash their full potential as a media journalist. Savio covers inspiring stories of resiliency and wellness trends collaborating with notable celebrity and TB personalities through his bestselling book and impactful work. He encourages individuals to love their inner stranger, rewrite their narrative and become.

Unstoppable [00:01:00] leaders through his transformative Aloha reboot, Savio, a board certified wellness coach guides individuals towards living a truly healthy, wealthy, and wise lifestyle at the core of his message echoes the profound truth to know thyself is to heal thyself. Please join me in welcoming Savio.

Savio Clemente: Hi Savio. Hi Gissele. Thank you so much for that lovely intro. So excited to be here. I’m so excited to talk about all the things that you described. So thank you.

Gissele Taraba: Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for being on the show. I was wondering if you could start by sharing with them what got you started on this journey?

Unfortunately,

Savio Clemente: it was cancer. It showed up in my life in July of 2014. And from that experience, I decided I had two options. One, I could be defined by the diagnosis, even though I’m a. I’m in remission, or I could actually use it as a source of healing and [00:02:00] empowerment for not only myself, but for other people.

I can delve a little deeper into that story, but that’s the impetus of the work that I do and why I feel so passionate and grateful being able to do the stuff that I’m doing.

Gissele Taraba: That’s beautiful. And I saw from your TEDx talk that your cancer journey was about four months. About 4 months long, which seems pretty amazing considering the people that I have known who have had that journey usually say it’s, it’s quite, it could be quite a lengthy journey.

What do you think helped you really turn the corner after such a short time? I’m sure it was a difficult time. I don’t want to diminish that the 4 months, but I’m just wondering if you could share with the audience what helped you really get to the path to healing.

Savio Clemente: You know, mentioning that particular time frame, I often am very cautious because It looks to others like I’m bragging or that I’m saying that I discovered a [00:03:00] secret that they didn’t discover, but for me, I think what helped me was a few things.

So, before cancer came into my life, I’ve always been on an exploration of just learning and growing as a person. I grew up Catholic. I was an altar boy. I went to Catholic elementary school. And somewhere along time in college, I discovered that there was other secrets or other things that I wanted to learn, other things that I wanted to do.

get my hands on or experience for myself. And so for me I discovered or researched things like Buddhism to spiritualism. And I wanted to understand that. And when cancer came at that time, I was a longtime meditator. I was meditating, started out with like a minute or two a day, and then it was about 20 minutes a day.

So I think that helped me to a large part. my care team. So the way cancer showed up into my life was that I went on a trip with a friend to Amsterdam, Paris, and London. I had deep night sweats. I thought that was really odd. It came back to the States, night sweats. Then my [00:04:00] stomach started getting stented.

At that point, I ended up seeing a naturopath who I saw for a good eight years in a row. He would analyze my blood, tell me what vitamins to take, what, what, what structure, what food structures to eat and whatnot. And he said, this is really odd. It could be a whole bunch of things here. Savio, I suggest you get a sonogram.

And I’m like, a sonogram? He’s like, yeah. I’m like, okay. So I get a sonogram. They wouldn’t let me leave the office. And they told me to have a relative come pick me up. And I was like, that’s odd because I have my own car, but my dad came, took me to the hospital and within an hour and a half, they, they admitted me to the fifth floor.

And then within the next day, I heard nurses talking that it would transmit to the seventh floor, which they call the cancer floor. So that’s when I found out I had cancer. And so I made a decision in that moment. A flash of insight came to me from a movie back in the day. And I tell the story all the time.

I think it’s very important is that there was a movie with Keanu Reeves called little Buddha back in the early nineties. He played Siddhartha. He played the little Buddha who gave up all his worldly possessions. [00:05:00] He was meditating with three with two other aesthetics, and he overheard two individuals on a fishing boat, one older, one younger, the older person had a instrument in his hand and told the younger person, if you hold the string too tight, it will snap.

And if you leave it to slack, it won’t play the path is the middle way. And that was like, wow. And so the medical director said to me, if you don’t do your first round of chemo, I don’t know where you’ll be. Even though a friend of mine said to me, are you sure you want to go down this path? Because chemo ravages the body, the good and the bad.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Savio Clemente: And so I said, well, the middle way is the path for me. And so I tell this story because I think that helped me as well. So I did six rounds of chemo. Every three weeks in between that I did a whole bunch of integrated modalities from ozone therapy to energy medicine to the black seed oil to putting a Google alert on my phone so I can learn about the cancer in general.

So I think that was it and I think also was the belief somewhere along the way that. And I echo this in my TEDx [00:06:00] talk is to know thyself is to heal thyself. So I found that my physical body was dying, but I found that the other parts of me was still alive. My emotional sectors where I was like, really like alive and caring and, and understanding and empathetic, even with other people who’d come in and out at four roommates, two of them had brain cancer.

I was empathetic to their needs. My relationships with my family and friends were still heightened. My mental body was still there. I was still. You know, Googling and researching my dreams were very vivid. And so I think allowing myself to grasp or grab onto that person who was dying allowed me profound depth insight into realizing that this is the reality and I can’t shake this reality.

What I can do is make a choice on how I want to deal with the reality.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And I think it makes You make an important point that I think people should choose what feels right for them in terms of [00:07:00] what their journey is going to look like. And so I think that’s great.

What decision did you make at that time, like, in terms of how you were going to live your life and how did that lead to the work you’re doing now?

Savio Clemente: Yeah, so I, this is a tough one because I. My family and friends were all, you’re going to handle this fine. If someone can handle it, you can, even though it’s stage three, they’re like, we got no problem.

We were totally confident in you. And although I appreciated their trust in me or their expectancy and how I’m going to handle this in me, there was a lot of pressure. And so I decided to just focus like a laser beam on the healing and I let everything else in my life go. Fortunately for me doing those integrated modalities, I think helps stave off any of the negative side effects.

I was still working out six days a week. I was eating well. I was still meditating. I was doing, you know, work as much as I could only had a little bit of lethargy. And I think with all that, the decision that I make was to, it’s [00:08:00] not over until it’s over. And even though I felt healthier as every infusion proceeded, my oncologist was very clear.

He’s like, we need to go through the whole protocol and then see what happens. And so for me, the story goes that in four and a half months of six rounds of chemo plus integrated modalities, I ended up getting my remission status five days before Christmas that same year. And this past December of 2023, it’s been nine years of remission.

Gissele Taraba: Wow. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. And so how is it that that journey helped you get to the point where you are helping leaders overcome their medical adversity and then kind of really step up into their own power?

Savio Clemente: Sure. So after five years of being in remission, I said, okay, I want to do something with this.

I didn’t know what it was, what it looked like. A little background information about me. I studied I. T. I did a lot of project [00:09:00] management and I. T. and software dot coms and all the good stuff. But I never really loved it. Then I teamed up with a group of people. We did some TV production as well.

That was interesting to me. But after five years, I said I need to do something with what just happened to me. And so I decided to get my board certification in wellness coaching. It’s the same certification that it’s, it’s given by the NBME, which is the National Board of Medical Examiners. It’s a serious test.

And I remember taking it at four and a half hours of like really focused and concentrated. Cause I wanted to make sure that I, if I’m going to do this, I’m going to do this right. And I’m going to be going to be there and create the container and be able to give what I need to give. My writings were still there.

So I pitched a topic to my editor on my community, Cancer Survivor Community, and he thought of a great title. So we launched an interview series called I Survived Cancer, Here’s How I Did It. And at this point I’ve interviewed 200 cancer survivors. It then became a subsequent book, I took 35 of the stories told my [00:10:00] own and one day before my birthday became a bestseller in four categories.

Gissele Taraba: So the

Savio Clemente: work that I do is really about individuals with medical adversity, whether it’s cancer or not, allowing them to just own them, own their story because no one can take away their story. And in order for someone to follow you, if you’re a leader, you need to walk the walk and talk the talk. And so I made it a mission and a point of mind to do that.

Gissele Taraba: Wonderful. Can you tell me a little bit about some of the stories that people share in the book in terms of maybe stories of resiliency or compassion or even, even some miracles and magic maybe?

Savio Clemente: Yeah, so a few stories. So, A story of resilience is this one individual in the book. He was a finance guy, and he had stage 4 pancreatic cancer.

It’s not a good diagnosis to have but he was told he has 2 to 4 percent chance of, of, of living or, or, you know, surviving. And he’s like, wait, I’m a finance guy. [00:11:00] Why do I have to be the 98 to 96 percent who don’t make it? Why can’t I be the one who makes it? So it was growing, but he made it. So that’s number 1.

Another story of An individual named Rob Paulson, he’s a voice actor Hollywood, he’s done Animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain, and he had, he had throat cancer, which was a double edged sword because it affected, it was cancer, but it affected his livelihood, what he loved to do, which is voices. They told him, Rob, we’re going to have to kill you before we can cure you.

And so he used what he knows best, which is humor in order to get through it. And he’s still working in Hollywood now. He says he food is no longer something that’s luxurious to him. He only eats to maintain a certain level of health. But he’s still alive and he’s able to do what he needs to do and spread the word.

And then probably the third one would, would probably be A model, a former model who took her pain and turned it into purpose. And her story’s really amazing to me because she said before cancer came into her life, everything was about [00:12:00] the visual and when she no longer had the visual, she no longer, she had, she had breast cancer.

Gissele Taraba: Then

Savio Clemente: she realized how her , how her identity had to shift in some way.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. How does this all fit with the profound truth you share about to know thyself is to heal thyself? How has knowing yourself really led to you towards your path of healing?

Savio Clemente: So in my TEDx talk, which is called seven minutes to wellness, how to love your inner stranger.

I actually did the talk this past October in Raleigh, North Carolina. And I use an acronym in the talk and it’s called the Aloha Reboot. And basically it’s, it stems from a healing in Hawaii called Huna Healing. And from that, there’s an offshoot called Ho’oponopono. And that basically just means self forgiveness and self compassion.

And so, A stands for acknowledgement. Acknowledge where you are in the present moment. Don’t pretend. L stands for listen. So [00:13:00] listen to that inner voice. So in HUNA healing, they talk about talking to different parts of your body. It sounds odd, and I don’t expect people to do this in public, but in the privacy of your own home, speak to those areas.

There’s a concept that I use called the three brains, the head, heart, and gut. And so speak to those areas because they hold a lot of wisdom and understanding there’s consciousness between those areas of the body stands for opening. So open yourself up to that self compassion and self forgiveness, a very major point because after 200 cancer survivors, that was the thread line that I kept seeing over and over again that they had to forgive and have compassion for not only.

others, but for themselves as well. H stands for harnessing, so harness that wisdom from within. And A is very simple, act on that purpose with intention. And so for me, the whole combination of that is that ancient saying that I heard a long, long time ago, which is to know thyself is to heal thyself. It’s always an inside job.

I mean, the doctors do what they do, but you can’t control a [00:14:00] test. A test is a test. is a test. But what you can control is your, how you feel about it. You can control how you think about it. You can control how you react to it. You can control how you, and I’m not saying it’s easy to do that. We need tools.

We need resources, breathing, meditation, yoga, exercising, going out in nature. Journaling, singing, humming, chanting, whatever works for you is whatever you need to do. But that’s the main thing that I always tell people. So it follows some of the teachings of Yogananda, which is self realization said to know what’s going on in your internal universe is to know what’s going on in your external world.

Gissele Taraba: Hmm. Thank you so much. Beautifully said. Let’s talk about forgiveness. And talk about the I always pronounce this wrong. Hoponopono. Like it’s a practice I’ve used myself. And it’s amazing how powerful it is. Do you know the history of it? The history

Savio Clemente: of Ho’oponopono, no, I don’t know the full [00:15:00] history of Ho’oponopono, the way that I had to be very careful in how I described Ho’oponopono in the TEDx talk, because when it comes to health and wellness, they’re very keen on not Presenting a lot, because it has to be science backed.

And so I wanted people to just touch their dip their toe into that practice. So I didn’t even talk about the, the repetitive affirmations that people say, because you have to be sort of very careful and how you disseminate information to the public, because they speak, they speak to a larger audience.

But I don’t if you could enlighten me, that’d be great.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, apparently if I’m, if I’m correct, if I’m correct, and please any of my audience, if I am wrong, please clarifySo my understanding was that this was a medical practitioner who decided to treat people that were criminally insane, but he actually never physically treated anyone.

He treated their files. And so this was a, it’s like, I guess, a psychiatric ward that [00:16:00] was really not working well. It was very toxic. There was a lot of danger, a lot of violence, and this individual actually. Use that Ho’oponopono and actually did it through the files and one by one people started healing.

They started getting better. The violence decreased, the ward became more calm. And so it’s amazing how powerful intention is, how, how powerful forgiveness, how powerful it is to, to do these practices. And so how did you come across that Hawaiian practice?

Savio Clemente: Yeah, so I, the Ho’oponopono was actually, I stumbled it by accident.

I think algorithms with social media are wonderful because they, I mean, okay, wonderful in a, in a sense, not completely horrible. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Because they can be a little, a little too, you know. Icky sometimes. But I know about HUNA healing from just my studies in general of, of, of different healing modalities, because I [00:17:00] often tell people all the time, even though I’m a board certified wellness coach, and I believe in the medical profession and medicine is wonderful and great.

Healing doesn’t always occur in those dimensions. It doesn’t occur always in a doctor’s office or a chemo bed. It occurs in mysterious ways that we have to search and find and know and unearth and release and catch and let go of. And I was just on a search of just healing in general. I just, I made it my mission.

It was like a laser beam of focus. I was, I didn’t let anything deter me from that focus. And so I just feel like in order to help another, you have to help yourself. And so I’m like, if I get through this, then maybe I can help other people. And so I’m, I’m doing the work.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, for sure. How did forgiveness actually help you in your healing journey?

Savio Clemente: Brene Brown would have a field day with this. So cancer for me showed up in many different ways. And it’s a little bit of what I talk about in the title of my TEDx talk, which is to love your inner stranger. [00:18:00] So the stranger was Savio dying. physically dying, stage three, and I had to come to terms with shame and vulnerability, which is two areas of my life that I try to keep locked away or hidden because I, I was that guy who was very independently minded.

I come from two other siblings, they’re both female. We’re all three years apart. And I just was just one of those people that just did, did my own thing. And so I had to rely on other people to help me. Dad to pick me up from a six hour chemo session. Mom, I lost 12 pounds. I was in the hospital for 15 days.

I was bedridden for a week. I lost 12 pounds. She’s like, no, no, no. We got to fix this problem. And so she fed me really, really well. And I just had to rely on other people to believe in me. Not to. Not to overly assume things, but to believe in my ability to see and to understand that this is happening.

I don’t know what the reason, I don’t know what the cause of the effect is, but I do know how I’m going to [00:19:00] respond to it. And the response was a way for me to unearth some of the garbage that I was holding onto or some of the baggage that I was not letting go of. And so that’s how that aspect showed, showed up in my

Gissele Taraba: life.

Thank you. Thank you for that. Let’s talk about self compassion and how, how much self compassion is needed doing a healing journey.

Savio Clemente: I think it’s extremely needed because I can cop to it. I am, I think being a coach and being a journalist, you have to meet people where they are. And I’m very good at that.

Like, I’m extremely kind to other people. But To myself, I’m very hard on myself. And even through cancer, I was very hard on myself. I wasn’t blaming myself, but a part of me just felt like shame, like I brought this upon me, or this is something that I created through icky thinking. And so self compassion in my life shows up in ways where.

I just allow myself to [00:20:00] appreciate where I’m at. I don’t have to be there tomorrow. I don’t have to be there in six weeks. It’d be great if I’m there and I’m doing the work to get there. But I can allow myself to just be truly focused. And people use the word presence all the time. And and I think that’s an easy word to throw out into the world, but it’s very difficult to be present when you’re someone like myself, who always tries to see the bigger vision and coaching.

We call the vision, not the goal, but the vision is how you want to be, how you want to feel when you see yourself fully being yourself. And so. I use things like putting my feet on the ground and feeling where that is, being in nature, breathing. Things of that nature.

Gissele Taraba: Why do you think that having that inner critic is so predominant, and especially in today’s society? I think we’re people historically have been taught to be critical of one another. And there is that misconception about compassion sort [00:21:00] of being weak. What about for men in particular? What sort of messages did you receive about compassion?

And what do you think sort of really reinforced your belief about the inner critic?

Savio Clemente: I love that you bought The inner critic out because people often say, Oh, when you talk about industry, do you mean the inner critic? No, I don’t mean the one that’s pounding on you. The inner stranger could be anything for me.

It showed up as the, the vulnerable, shameful person. For other people, the stranger to them is someone that they haven’t fully seen their eyes for people who believe in Buddhism. The inner stranger is a past life. that they haven’t fully unearthed or tried to work through the karma that’s there. And so when it comes to my understanding and what I try to sort of see as the inner stranger, the inner critic, especially when it comes to men’s work, and I’ve attended a men’s retreat, it actually It was right before COVID.

I was invited to the Catskills and it’s my first time with a group of men, 18 of [00:22:00] them. And it was so refreshingly amazing. I’m not even kidding you. We did something called like eye gazing with another man staring at their eyes.

Gissele Taraba: Wow. That’s amazing.

Savio Clemente: Not as like, who’s going to flinch, but as just from love in a compassionate way, and it was transformative.

I couldn’t even believe that happening. Then to add to that, we put our hands on each other’s hearts and did the gazing at the same time. And then to be in an environment where men were just not performing or thinking that it had to be masculine, but just be and exist as souls, having the experience in the moment was amazing.

And so I think historically, I can just speak for the culture that I’m, I’m, I’m Indian. So I can speak a little bit about that culture as well. It’s getting better, but growing up, my dad used to use the word, you know, got to be a man, and men. In Indian culture are extremely revered in most Asian cultures.

They are. [00:23:00] And so there was a lot of pressure put upon me when I was really, really young. And so now, moving forward in America and seeing it, I think it’s gotten better. I think men are able to speak about it. Mental health is the big topic that’s now happening. Covid brought that out in positive and negative ways.

I think just generally, I think. We need to look at each other as people having an experience in the human form. And I think once we do that, we’re allowed to just let the other stuff that’s binding us or holding us back. It’s just, it’s just fruitless energy and wasteful energy.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that.

I love that you shared that experience. I definitely think that experience should be expanded and everyone really kind of participate in that, especially men. Because I think that we’ve done our young men a disservice, I think by forcing them to subdue their emotions and by only allowing really anger to be the only acceptable emotion.

We [00:24:00] really have harmed our boys. And I was thinking about this too, in terms of even Even the whole kind of sexual relationship, you know, we wonder why we’re kind of in the state that we are but really the only closeness we’ve allowed men to have is sexually, right? We wonder why there’s so much rape and there’s so much all of these assaults and stuff, but really, we haven’t really encouraged men to seek.

Comforting connection in any other way. And so I think it’s great that now we are moving away from that and shifting towards removing those and really allowing men to focus on loving themselves, being compassionate towards themselves. Really tapping into those needs, right? Tapping into the need for affection and hugs and, and, and being vulnerable.

And so I think that’s great and it’s important.

Savio Clemente: Yeah. And thank you for even mentioning that because I think just in what you’re saying, it seems like [00:25:00] historically, it’s also about what can you do in the physical. Like what can men do in the, can you play a game in the physical? Can you watch a game in the physical?

Can we rough house in the rough house in the physical? Can we play football in the physical? What about expressing our needs and our desires emotionally? What about expressing what we are sensing and feeling? What about expressing those things? And I think that dialogue needs to be. Expanded. I know when I went to the men’s retreat, it was marketed as because of the Me Too movement, men has have to like rise up, they have to get better.

And I just really went out of more curiosity than not. But it was revelatory because they had these sessions where men were crying. Literally write a a story, write a story to your dad. Write, write the story that you would love to tell if you could actually have the courage to tell it. Mm-Hmm. And there was just wonderful insights that came out of that experience.

Breath work, where guys were like going full on trauma. And [00:26:00] so of course these have to be facilitated by individuals that know what they’re doing. Fortunately, course it was facilitated by someone who knew, who knew what he was doing, but. To me, just witnessing that was just an amazing opening.

Gissele Taraba: And can you share again, like, who is it that held this workshop?

Savio Clemente: Sure. It’s called his name is Andrew Horn. He has something called Junto, and it’s we Junto. Oh,

Gissele Taraba: okay. Yeah. That sounds, I think that sounds fantastic because, and I also have, I think has to be, By men for men, because I think the messaging has come from other men, whether it be fathers or whether it be like male mentors.

And I think it, the messaging around, we have to change and we really have to tap in and to find that inner child within, I think it also has to come from men as well. Historically, I have heard that all of these things like loving yourself and being compassionate are very feminine traits. And, and, you know, and so, but [00:27:00] it’s not true.

I think everyone’s got a masculine and feminine perspective, right? Like we’ve all got both of these things. And I think we need to kind of shift away from naming it masculine, feminine, and really just say, it’s a human thing. It’s a human thing to want to belong. It’s a human thing to need to acknowledge our own difficult feelings.

It’s a human thing. But I definitely see the merit in having men teach that sort of work.

Savio Clemente: Yeah, well, what was also refreshing about that group was, and it was all about the inner work, this is my world, was also about individuals saying, I didn’t want to express that side of me because I didn’t want people to think I was gay.

Right. ,

Gissele Taraba: which was, it’s a very honest, it’s a very honest thing to say. It’s a A very honest thing. Yeah. Yeah. It’s extremely honest.

Savio Clemente: But why? Is painting your nails or thinking that you’re gay, why is that something to not be seen as something positive? Right? Just that’s the larger question there. The larger question is not about you want your nails painted, have your nails painted.

The larger question is, [00:28:00] how do you see yourself in that context? Right? And why is that triggering for you?

Gissele Taraba: Yeah. Yeah. And so thank you for sharing that because I think right now we have, I feel a culture. I, though, I do think this is changing that it’s like people are very eager to cancel one another without hearing each other out.

And I think that’s a genuine That’s a genuine fear that people have, whether we perceive it right or wrong. And like you said, it doesn’t make sense to me either. It doesn’t make sense. What color nails you, you color, like boys can wear tiaras and have fun with that. The same as girls could wear, different things that we have perceived as men, it really doesn’t matter.

But I think these are genuine fears that people have, and that’s really preventing them from connecting with themselves because they think, oh, then people are going to think this or that of me. But by having these conversations, we are beginning to uncover that and say, hey, you know, we’re not alone.

These thoughts. Okay. There’s a genuine fear for you. That’s okay. Work through it [00:29:00] so that you can then connect with your inner self so that things can finally change. But without having difficult conversations with ourselves and other people, we’re not going to be able to help each other get there, which is the real challenge.

Navigating this in the world of different cultures, as well as different people’s perspectives. So you mentioned that self compassion in the forgiveness was a theme throughout all those different people. What other themes did you find among the stories?

Savio Clemente: I would probably say when it comes to just cancer in general, it’s this idea that it doesn’t have to be a death sentence.

It was just over and over again that. You can be one of the ones that are surviving and living and thriving and doing what you can from the experience that happened to you. Another theme that really caught my attention was this idea that you can rely on community to help you through this. Like, so I didn’t, so I’m, I’m the first one to admit it.

If you read my book, I didn’t, but other people use their friends and families as scribes in their doctor’s appointments, use them and gave them certain [00:30:00] jobs to do because they just didn’t want them to keep asking them about how you’re doing, how you’re doing. It was more about how can you help me be the best I can be in this moment in time.

And I think probably the third thing also was this, and this was a prevailing thing where people saw you as less than because you had cancer. And so there was a feeling it wasn’t said and no one said it, but it was this feeling. And so it was about reframing that idea. So for example, for me, I, instead of seeing the chemo as, as this horrible thing, I reframed it as an elixir.

As something that was there for me, that was going to give me the source of life that I was looking for. So, and I, that’s what I chose to do. So every infusion session, six hours long I did that. And I allowed myself to allow that medicine to come into my life and not resist what was, what it was doing.

Gissele Taraba: I think you said some really key things. Number one was really the [00:31:00] focus on like envisioning, like meaning that you have to really, and you had mentioned this, the fact that you didn’t waver, you have to see yourself beyond it. And so when I was reading a book about the Holocaust, they were talking about the people that made it out were people that were able to see their life beyond that circumstance.

So I think that’s really key. And I love the reframe that you used around around the experiences because so often we resist the things in our lives and cause us most suffering. In your case, you decided to take something that people had said is toxic and do all these things and say, you know what, I’m choosing to experience this in a very positive way.

And you said you had very little side effects and then, you know, other than sleeping and so on. If we choose to perceive everything as an opportunity and as a, as a, as a positive, are we then opening up to the potential of experiencing it [00:32:00] in a positive way rather than in a negative way?

Savio Clemente: And of course, this is very easy for me to tell you this, Gissele, 10 years later, almost.

Gissele Taraba: Yeah.

Savio Clemente: At the time, obviously I was just, Doing what I needed to do. I was reacting to the situation because it was fast and furious. I had no choices. The hospital, 7th floor, cancer, bedridden, chemo, like it just went fast and furious. I had no time to deliberate or to think about it. So this is easy. I guess people listening might be like, well, this is easy.

10 years later even at the time, though, I knew. That there was a rhythm happening, that there was a connection. Why, why was I on the seventh floor with all these other people? What’s the connection there? Why is this happening to me in my life? Or not only that, but how can I find a way to get myself out of the situation?

What do I need to do? What do I need to see? What do I need to experience? What do I need to let go of? What do I need to embrace? And I asked those hard questions of myself throughout that whole journey. Maybe in hindsight, it could have been a little easier if I asked [00:33:00] added a bit of community to it, but that’s not what I chose to do.

I knew it was my challenge. I felt it was a cross, my own cross to bear. And I felt I was the only one who could get myself out of this mess because as a wise friend once said to me, just because you created it means that you can also uncreate it. So the choice is yours. And so that’s what I decided to do.

Gissele Taraba: I think that’s very important. Because you know, and I don’t want people to think that it’s their fault. People consciously don’t choose that. However, they do have power. And I think that’s what you’re alluding to that people do have power. Can you talk a little bit about life post?

Because I think most of the stories seem to end there, which is like, okay, I I’m in remission whoop dee doo, right? So what has life, what is life for most people in terms of post of the stories you shared? And how can people choose to live a life not to focus on their whole identity being surviving cancer rather than it being [00:34:00] one chapter out of a very, very beautiful book of their life.

Savio Clemente: So a lot of people it’s controversial say that cancer, they would never define it even for myself as a blessing, but more of as an opportunity. So a lot of people from the book, The Hollywood voice actor is still doing his craft. The other person had her documentary in on Netflix. Another person just did a movie.

Another person just, you know, built a business. So a lot of stuff has happened in their lives. I can speak for my own self.

Cancer opened up a whole new world. I became a a board certified wellness coach. I was a journalist. I pitched this, it became at this point I’ve done six different series from cancer survivorship, five things you need to know from a doctor’s perspective, to rising to resilience, through the fear of failure, through longevity healthy to a hundred because I wanted people to go through that journey.

I did a best selling book. I did a TEDx talk. So a lot of stuff has happened in my life. And. I have to say if it wasn’t for cancer, none [00:35:00] of it would have happened. Maybe something else would have come into my life that I could be this energized and this passionate and this full hearted about because I really believe for me, if I can empower other people to see beyond the adversity that has happened in their life, then maybe they can find a glimmer of hope to allow others to see that as well and and thus become leaders in their own right.

Gissele Taraba: Hmm. Hmm. Beautifully

said. Beautifully said. going back to the aloha part the last part is action. Can you talk a little bit about, do you mean just like grinding it out or do you what kind of action are you talking about?

I’m talking about inspired action.

Savio Clemente: So we can all act, we can all do, so we can write something on our to do list and actually do it. I’m talking about actually pull, put your full self into that particular action. And it’s not easy. It’s not like, Oh, I’m going to, I’m going to say hello to five people today and get out of my, you know, shelf.

For some people who are extroverts, that’s probably easy. I’m an [00:36:00] introvert who’s an extrovert when I need to be. Like right now. Fair

Gissele Taraba: enough, yeah.

Savio Clemente: And so I’m talking about things that move the needle in, in your own way. So things that not only are prudent to do or that make sense intellectually, but things that move you from a soulful perspective or an emotional perspective, or even from long term perspective.

So action just really inspired action really, to me, just means this idea. And it was one of my trainings from Dr. Siegelman at University of Pennsylvania, where he talked about gratitude. This idea of gratitude is wonderful, making lists, but what really makes it even more potent is why did the thing that you wrote down happen?

So for example, I’m grateful for my car. Well, why are you good for your car? Because I saved really hard and I bought, let’s say, the car of my dreams. It adds a level of savoriness to it. It adds a level of just saying, Oh, I actually accumulated that. I actually made that happen in my life. So that’s what I mean by inspired action, taking those types of [00:37:00] steps.

Gissele Taraba: Ooh, I love that you said that. I was just thinking about one of the things I say often is I’m grateful for my children. And as you were saying, I’m like, okay, but why am I grateful for my children? I’m like, oh, they get me. They allow me to be a parent. I learned from them. They get me to remind me of joy of, of the, you know, the funnest sometimes that I forget about.

And so, oh, that’s amazing. Thank you for that. That’s wonderful. My daughter and I were talking the other day about how do we know when it’s like, Inspiration from your soul or spirit versus something coming out of your mind and that very fear based. And I’m curious as to what your answer would be,

Savio Clemente: I would say both are valid, but I say that if you feel like the tinge or the impetus is to go with things that are more soulful, ask yourself that quick, like, write it down, create that particular document or that particular list and figure out for yourself.

Okay. Like move into your head, heart and gut and see which one is pinging to you at the time because it’s a lot of anecdotal research, but says that we make [00:38:00] decisions through emotions first, not intellectually. So we buy through our emotions. We go to the grocery store and buy a brand because we feel a certain type of way about how that brand makes us feel or what that brand has done for us.

So I would say inventory list. And ask yourself those deeper questions and just not, it doesn’t and the answer doesn’t have to be right away. It could could take some time. I think the other thing also, which is really interesting is that when it comes to making long lasting decisions, I think all of us would lean more towards things that make us feel a certain way.

But sometimes we need to make rational decisions. Like if I get into a car accident,

I need to make a rational decision. I can’t just like go on my guttural emotion and be like, why the hell did you just like bump into me? It’s an accident. It happens.

Gissele Taraba: You know, what I was thinking about when you were talking was about the difference between when I get inspiration from like spirit, which sometimes doesn’t make sense versus when it comes from my mind, right? So [00:39:00] sometimes I’m guided to do certain things that I don’t always know

What the outcome is going to be or what the purpose of that is. But if I follow it, there’s usually something amazing that happens at the end. But sometimes like my mind will talk me out of it. Well, it doesn’t make sense. Why are you doing that? What’s, what’s the point of that? Like, and so that’s where When the two conflict, well, first of all, I don’t do anything.

I pause until I have greater clarity. And the second thing is, is I will be more likely to go with my heart and gut than, than what my, my little mind has to say. I find sometimes it can be fear based. Yeah.

Savio Clemente: 100%. And it actually reminds me of Star Wars. What did Yoda say? He would end every conversation with, Let me meditate on it or he would say something, something to that effect.

So I think the key there is obviously the, you know, the, the word discernment, but also when it comes to messages or pings, people call it download now, there’s all these words for it. I think it’s great to have them because that’s a spark of inspiration, creativity, a [00:40:00] spark of insight, a spark, a stroke of genius as they say.

But I think the key there is to filter it down and see if there’s any greater deeper meaning to it.

That’s when you know it

comes from a more profound or a wisdom centered space is when you can actually find proof and evidence for that particular insight that you

Gissele Taraba: got.

Going back to what you had mentioned about meditation What do you tell your clients when they say that they have a hard time meditating and that maybe that’s not such a good thing for them?

Savio Clemente: I tell them though. I tell ’em, let’s not call it meditation. . Let’s quiet, let’s, let’s call it quiet time some, let’s call it mirror time. Mm-Hmm. Let’s call it Coffee Break . Mm-Hmm. Meditation doesn’t have to be so serious. I know. And, you know, there are certain things that allow meditation to foster and to become stronger.

There’s things like positioning, lotus position. There’s things like listening to music, not listening to music, chanting the om, saying the I am, [00:41:00] humming doing all these different things, breathing exercises and those are wonderful and great, but I think when it comes to someone who just feels like they want to get a benefit of tapping into their own inner wisdom or tapping into the sea of energy, whatever you call that energy, God, Jesus, Jesus.

Buddha, Krishna, I don’t care. If you want to tap into it, the first thing is to be okay with being with yourself. And most people are just not. And that’s one thing that I feel really privileged as someone who grew up in the Northeast in New York and went to, I went to, I lived in the suburbs, but I went to school in the city.

I was comfortable eating by myself and doing things by myself. I love spending time with myself, not a problem at all. But if you can’t even do that first, then you will find meditation very hard because you have to be really baseless in terms of nothing else interfering with you and that other person, that other energy that’s, that’s trying to get your attention in life.

And another thing I just really wanted to say about when you asked [00:42:00] that question, what came to me and I’m going to rephrase it because it was very powerful when I heard it was this idea of not rejecting a truth when you found error into it. And I, I know for myself, if I find error in something, I’m going to reject the truth.

Right. But. The truth is expanding and growing and there’s errors in every sort of truth. You find new truth, the new truth. And so if you find that happening to you, then you need to just have more compassion and understanding for where that person is. It doesn’t mean that it has to filter to your own knowingness.

It just is part of the understanding process. Possibilities and

Gissele Taraba: I love that you said that because I think people have a misunderstanding about compassion. Compassion means that we know sometimes right. And then, you know, we’re trying to help other people. And then when they don’t take our help, we’re like, get frustrated.

And so I think, you know, one of our definitions of compassion here is allowing things to be. And just, you know, with unconditional love. And so I think that that [00:43:00] fits quite well. And actually going back to my next two questions. The first one is what’s your definition of unconditional love?

Savio Clemente: So I grew up in a culture where my parents showed me love in so many other ways than what is considered normalized. So they didn’t say, I love you. You talked about hugs. Rarely did that happen except for like, You know, religious occasions. Yeah. And so when it comes to unconditional love, and it’s a, it’s a work in progress for me, I can be really honest about it, because I tried to, I tried to implement this idea of, of this concept in Buddhism about the empty pot, the empty mind.

And I come into conversations and with people with that perspective, it’s hard when it comes to unconditional love. I’m always challenged by my own barriers with it by my own history with it by my own leanings or yearnings for it. So I would really define unconditional love in my lens and my experience as [00:44:00] the ability to allow others to see you.

Gissele Taraba: Ooh, love that. Really, really love that. I was wondering if you could share with the audience where they can find you, where they can work with you where they can find your book, share anything that you want to share with the audience now.

Savio Clemente: Well, thank you, Gissele. I appreciate that. So you can find me on my website, Savio, S A V I O, P is my middle initial, Clemente, C L E M E N T E. Savioclemente.com

On there, I have two more spots left for my 90 day coaching program. I also do a a weekly newsletter. So as a journalist, I’ve interviewed people like Venus Williams and Ice T, but I also covered, recently, the red carpet at the Oscars. And so I wrote a piece about, do I belong in a sea of Hollywood’s elite?

Do I actually belong, even though I’m vetted and I was there, you know, to be there, do I belong there? And so I, I write from that head, heart, gut perspective of really being and living in the world. You can also find other podcasts and other information [00:45:00] there. And on social media, you can find me @thehumanresolve.

I’m on every social media platform.

Gissele Taraba: Wow. Thank you so, so much for sharing your wisdom with us and for being with us today. And please join us for another episode of the loving compassion podcast with Gissele. See you soon.

Savio Clemente: Thanks Gissele.

Gissele Taraba: Bye.

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[00:00:00]

Gissele: Hello and welcome everyone to the Love and Compassion podcast with Giselle.

Today we have an amazing guest, Alexis Duncan, who is called the Destructix, I’m probably pronouncing that wrong. She offers thoughtful mentorship and psychic insight at crossroads moments for the secretly spiritual women, super accomplished in many things from publishing and music to art and language and steeped in verbal tea.

Alexis is the witchy bestie you’ve always wanted. Please join me in welcoming Alexis.

Alexis: Hi, Alexis. Hello, thank you for having me. Oh,

Gissele: no, thank you for being on the show. Before we begin, can you tell me a little bit about what the Destructix means?

Alexis: Yeah, so I was looking for a title that would really sit with me, that really kind of [00:01:00] embodied what I do for my clients and my approach to things, and a lot of people use the word creatrix, and I just didn’t, that’s just not me, you know, that implies It’s It’s only creative energy and, and I’m not that I destroy

Gissele: things.

Alexis: And, and part of that is just, you know, the destructrix is a, it’s a female destroyer. And that energy is really about. Letting go, destroying the things that no longer serve, removing that in order to transform and be reborn and, embrace for creation.

Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing this. And also thank you for explaining.

Alexis: I know. It’s a little weird.

Gissele: Interesting. In my life, I’ve met people who had like that energy where they came sort of [00:02:00] into your life and it was a little bit of a tornado where things kind of got shooken up and then they kind of left. And then you’re like, what happened? But yeah, it’s, it’s that it’s, it’s a really interesting energy and it’s such a helpful energy in the sense of sometimes maybe that’s what we need because we so.

Yeah. Not eager to let go of things. Right. And so, can I, can I ask how you got started into this sort of line of work, if

Alexis: you may? Well, I was actually, I was born psychic, and I’m the daughter of 2 ordained ministers. So that was tricky for me to kind of embrace who I was. And I didn’t have a lot of.

Resources and support to allow me to explore those things the way that I’m Might have benefited from at a younger age. I kind of had to figure it [00:03:00] out on my own. And because I’m a zenial there really wasn’t online communities and things to, to draw on at that time. It was really the wild West in a lot of ways.

And in some ways it still is, so I had to kind of figure it out for myself over time. And it wasn’t until I was, in my mid thirties that I really, I was working on, I was writing an interfaith. devotional and world religions curriculum. And it caused me to be in this meditative state for days on end.

And I had this powerful vision that was like, you can’t ignore this anymore. You have to do this. Like this is part of who you are and this is how you have to be in the world. And so after that, it was really just a series of, okay, [00:04:00] how do I figure these things out? What? Excuse me, what am I called to do with them?

How do I want to work with them? You know, figuring out how do I create spiritual boundaries for myself and then. As I started doing some of my intuitive coaching, I realized that a lot of my clients were people who were going through some of those things that I had been through. They didn’t have the support that they needed.

They didn’t have the people in their lives that they felt safe discussing these things with. And so. I was able to kind of shepherd them and guide them through that process.

Gissele: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It must have been difficult or challenging. I don’t want to use the word difficult but challenging to navigate that as a child, like within the world of the realm of religion.

I know when I was younger. Spirituality was seen in a specific way. Like my, I [00:05:00] had my, I had family members that kind of practice sort of like what people would consider aberrant arts, right? Like somebody that I knew used to have like a little skull in a, in, in a little box that they used to talk to and had all these practices.

And so that was really kind of the only side of it that we saw. It was either kind of. evidence-based and research or, you know, like very mind focused or this sort of occult, they’re sort of not in the middle. And so navigating that and trying to find your people must have been a little bit

Alexis: challenging or difficult.

Definitely. I mean, I, I think if you’re connected with spirit, you will receive the guidance that you need when you need it. In the way that you need it. Yeah. But that doesn’t take the challenging aspect out of it. Yes. Yes.

Gissele: Yeah. [00:06:00] And so, and was it, was it easy for you to listen to that guidance? Was it easy?

Because I’ve been in situations as well that the guidance I received didn’t make sense in my mind. And so I’m like, really? That’s what we’re doing? Why are we doing that? And so, how easy or difficult was it for you to follow that guidance?

Alexis: Well, at first, you really have to figure out what the guidance is even telling you.

And especially when you’re young, that’s really difficult because you’re feeling things for the 1st time. And so you don’t understand what the sensations in your body are telling you. And so kind of connecting the intuitive. Information to the physical information is it’s it’s next to impossible. You make huge mistakes, which you would expect of, like, any average 12 year old.

As you get more in touch with your body, though and this is something that I talk about with my clients all the time is it’s really important to [00:07:00] remember that the body is. Very essential to the spiritual journey and to life, you really need to connect to your physical being. And so the more in touch you are with the physical sensations that are happening in your body and connecting that with the information that you’re getting the clearer and easier it’s going to be to trust your intuitive, not just to trust any kind of spiritual guidance that you get.

So, yeah, that. I made a lot of mistakes when I was younger. But thankfully now even when I get those really off the wall, intuitive nudges that don’t seem to connect to anything, I’m like, you know what? I’m just going to follow it. And then when I do, it’s really fantastic. So,

Gissele: yeah, thank you for sharing that.

Can you tell the audience a little bit [00:08:00] about how the body, like the role the body plays in spirituality? Because obviously the body plays an important role in health, right? In us staying alive, but people might not always understand how it fits with spirituality. Because I think sometimes people have been taught to bypass.

Like, let’s bypass the body, let’s bypass those feelings, like, bypass, we just, like, we want to get above this material 3D world. How do the two

Alexis: interplay? Well, I would say that everything that’s physical has a spiritual signature and everything that’s spiritual has a physical signature. You know, our physical bodies are a reflection of our spirit.

And that’s clear, right? You know, form follows function. When you use something a certain way, it develops and is shaped a certain way. And the same is true with the body. You know, if a swimmer’s body changes when they practice swimming you know, a cellist’s body changes when they practice cello. [00:09:00] It’s the same thing.

And so, as we go through life, and you can see this when you look at someone who’s in their 80th or 90th year, you see how their body has been shaped over time and how it’s been used over time. But. There’s actually been studies that show that the body sends more messages to the brain than the brain sends to the body.

So how we interact with the world, you know, the body is, is, is this 1st, line of defense and this 1st, line of inquiry in this 1st, line of experience and how our body looks. You know, how, how people perceive us also shapes our physical experience. And all of these things shape our spiritual experience. You know, what makes sense to you, what feels good to you is going to be different depending on how your body is shaped.

Like, for example. I have hypermobile [00:10:00] Ehlers Danlos. Okay, this is a connective tissue issue, right? So I can’t do yoga. Yoga actually will cause me to have injury. So I’m not going to be practicing different asanas as part of my spiritual practice, but for somebody who doesn’t have these connective tissue issues.

Yoga could be a really wonderful and powerful ally and practice for them to experience all kinds of spiritual, things. So it really just depends on, you know, how your body is and, and the more in touch you are with it, the more marvelous it can be. I mean, how wonderful is it to experience? On your skin, you know, how wonderful is it to experience the smell of fresh bread baking?

These can be spiritual experiences and these can really ground us in the present moment. And you can’t have that if [00:11:00] you don’t have a body. So, so enjoy what the body offers. Yeah. And

Gissele: I think that’s what more and more that I’m really becoming aware of just, well, joyful and precious and beautiful. Every single day, each experience can be like, we’re so future focus, or sometimes we’re so past focus.

That, you know, we think, you know, once I do this, I’m going to be happy once I do this and we’re constantly trying to reach a goal that seems always to be moving, but there’s joy in the moment. There’s joy in experience and a cup of coffee and just watching kids play and, and all of those moments. You’re right.

We can’t do without a body. We can’t do without. So instead of making sometimes the body our enemy, can we make it our, our friend or our best friend and it’s helping us really experience and get the most juice out of life, [00:12:00] if you may.

Alexis: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would say that that’s one of the, I mean, why else are we here?

If we aren’t here to experience this physical life, there, whatever you believe about what happens after you’re after or before the body is unique, you know. Spirit is one thing, but the body is unique, and the body is special, and this experience right now is special. And so, it’s worth taking the time to embrace what is about that.

And, and that’s, and I would say, and this might be a little unconventional, but I would say even in the difficult things, you know, to find a kind of joy and beauty in, in even those difficult things. As part of this physical experience.

Gissele: Yeah. And you’ve had some challenges, obviously, I think before we had talked about [00:13:00] your experiences with COVID.

So 2020, do you want to share a little bit about that? And what sort of helped you through?

Alexis: Yeah, so I, I was, I got lung COVID in March of 2020, which was like the first wave of the pandemic. And so nobody knew what was going on. There weren’t tests for it. There was a lot of confusion. I ended up being isolated from my family for 11 weeks because they just didn’t know what to do.

And at the time I was still breastfeeding my youngest child. And so they would bring her to me. Just to, like, nurse and then she would have to be kept out and so, you know, it was, it was a really painful, awful thing for all of us because, you know, my husband was like, is my wife going to, like, is she going to be okay?

Is she going to, like, is she going to live? Is she going to be [00:14:00] normal ever? And then my kids were traumatized. Like, so both of them ended up having to be in therapy because it was like, you know, What’s going on with mom? You know, this person that’s supposed to be this rock for you is just not there and we can see her but We can’t interact with her.

And then even after my isolation, excuse me, it took a long time for me to get back to where I am now, which is like, I mean, it was, it was a hard road and just like with acute COVID, there were cycles of symptoms. And so I would have, like, I would have extreme fatigue, or then I would have like chronic migraines, or then I would have, you know, vision problems or neurological problems or GI [00:15:00] problems.

And it would just like, it was just like, what do I do? Which specialist will I go to now who won’t be able to help me? Yeah, it must have been scary. Yeah, it

Gissele: must have been really, really scary. What do you think helped you through the process in being able to get through that piece? Like what, what, what were some of the pillars that really helped you get through that time?

Cause like you said, there was no answers at that time. Nobody knew anything. I mean, everything was changing moment by moment. What helped you kind of hold on and helped you get through the other side?

Alexis: I’ve always been this kind of person. I’ve always been an active person and I have always told myself, well, this is temporary.

So, and then I wrote everything is temporary. Everything is temporary. [00:16:00] So I could trust that everything was going to be temporary. I could always find something that some thing that I could do or focus on. So, especially during that isolation, this was the hardest time. What I would do is I would practice grounding where I would like, think of, like, I would look around.

Even in my room or out the window, and I’d be like, what’s something that I can appreciate about right now? What’s 1 thing? And I would look out and I’d be like, oh, the sky is blue. It’s beautiful today. Or I would listen to the birds and I would think about the birds or I would, you know, enjoy my blanket and the sensation of my blankets.

There were such small things because that’s all I could do. You know, and then yeah. I was having cognitive issues as well, and so I was like, okay, what’s something that I can [00:17:00] do that can keep my brain where I want it to be, you know, and so I started, I got Duolingo on my phone and I was, and I was like, what’s the hardest language that I can think of to like, practice?

I was like, Korean, we’ll do that. And so I was like, even if I just did like one lesson a day, I was just like, okay, I’m just going to do one little thing. And, and then I also focused on, you know, what really mattered to me. I noticed that when I was the sickest, my values, like what was most important to me, my priorities shifted.

And because I, I really didn’t know what was going to happen to me. And I was like, if I, you know, if I die, how do I feel about how I’ve lived my life? And as far as like a bucket list, I was like, I’ve done everything that I really wanted to do as, you know, like the experiences that [00:18:00] I’ve had. I feel good about.

I don’t really have any regrets. The only thing. That was really important to me was time with my family with people that I was really close to. And so when I did have time with them, I was really deeply present with that. And I just made a really big effort to. Just enjoy being with them and telling them the things that they needed that I wanted them to hear from me and to this day that has changed.

I whenever I have a moment where either of my kids. I’ll just give them a hug and I’ll whisper in their ear and I’ll say, you know, I love you. I’m proud of you. You bring me joy every day. And, and I’m really mean it like I put a lot of meaning behind those words and I let them just sit with them because [00:19:00] you don’t know what’s going to happen.

I mean, even a healthy person could walk outside and get struck by a car and be gone. And so, making the time to do those things. It’s really, it’s really important.

Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing your stories with so many powerful things. Do you think that this experience helped you get to a point you might not have gotten if you hadn’t gotten?

Alexis: Absolutely. So sick. Yeah, I would, I had to rebuild my entire life. That’s why you’re the destructix now. I mean, I, I really, I really did. I, I ended up rebuilding my health. Obviously my approach to my body is completely different. I’m much more in [00:20:00] tune with my body and I know. Exactly what it needs, what it needs because I’ve had to pay such close attention for so long.

I also, I rebuilt my marriage because I ended up during this time, I ended up being on the brink of divorce because it was just so wearing and there was so much happening. So the way that I communicate with my husband and the way that we treat each other, the kinds of things we do together.

Totally changed. I had to rebuild my parenting because my children were traumatized and had these horrible experiences. So I ended up having to, advocate for them in really big ways to find them the supports that they needed. And honestly, the way that we are as a family is just so much better. I, you know, we don’t have the kinds of.[00:21:00]

Issues that even some typical families might have because we have structures in place. My kids have coping mechanisms. They’re able to regulate themselves. They help each other regulate. I mean, it’s just, it’s a really beautiful thing. And. In some, it’s, it seems backwards, but in many ways, I’m actually grateful for the experience of this.

I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Yeah, absolutely not. Yeah, however, because it happened to me, you know, I was able to take it and use it to transform. All these different parts of my life and I’m grateful for where I am now.

Gissele: And so well said because I think one of the things that we must acknowledge what is your willingness to optimize a situation that was so, [00:22:00] so difficult.

And, you know, like sort of mine for gold from it, right? The fact that you were even willing to do the little things such as, okay, what am I grateful for? I’m breathing. There’s the sky. You know, the soft pillow. Being willing to do that work of Because it’s so much easier sometimes to just really swallowing the pit of despair of our victimization, but to be able to look at things to be grateful for in even the most challenging of circumstances, I think it’s.

It’s something to acknowledge. So I think that from that perspective, I think your being able to shift your mindset really helped you get to the point where you can say, I’m grateful for that experience. Like I said, I wouldn’t wish it on anyone else, but I’m

Alexis: grateful. And I would, I do want to, I want to not be disingenuous in some way, because I want to be [00:23:00] clear.

I did have times that were really low, you know, like, there were times where I wasn’t able to do that as well. Or I was having, 1 of the symptoms that I’ve had with my migraines was actually mood, altering stuff and it was difficult and and. So there were times that where the only thing I could do was tell someone I’m having this moment and I’m not, I’m not able to like walk through it.

Well, like I need your support. And, and that was all that I, you know, that was the only thing that I could do. And fortunately because of who I am, I had those supports and I did feel comfortable reaching out to people. But, you know, I do like. If someone is listening to this or watching this I [00:24:00] do want you to know that, like, it’s normal to have those really low moments and just to, you know, to be okay with that.

That’s a normal part of the experience. Yeah, absolutely. And just, you know, reach out to people when you don’t feel like you can do it on your own, because there are people who will support you.

Gissele: And I just want to stress cause I think what you’re saying is so spot on and it really goes to my questions on compassion, which is like be compassionate to yourself.

I know in my spiritual journey, I’ve had instances like of like when you feel bliss and you feel grateful and you feel, and then there’s other times when you just can’t find it. You can’t find the compassion. You can’t find the love for yourself. You really can’t find it in like you, you just got to admit, okay, I can’t find it today.

I just really can’t. Maybe tomorrow, maybe in the next moment, but right now I don’t have it. That’s okay. [00:25:00] I’ll has compassion or self compassion in particular really helped you when navigating kind of your most difficult moments. I

Alexis: mean, I would definitely say that there would be times where it’s like, I can’t do what I used to do before.

Like that’s not possible right now. And. I would sit with that, you know, I’d sit with the, the frustration, the, the despair and the discouragement and I’d be like, okay, that’s okay that I had that feeling and, and it’s understandable and now, like, what can I do? What do I need to do for myself? How do I need to be for myself now, who I am now?

And one of the most powerful practices that I learned over this time that I think most of us in the [00:26:00] modern world could could use this lesson is to rest and to take breaks and to pace yourself. You know, you don’t always have to be productive and your value is not from being productive. You don’t have to achieve something to be worthy to be here.

Just being is enough and at, especially at the beginning of my illness, it was really hard for me because I do things, you know, I am, I am a recovering overachiever. So, like, sitting still and not being able to do things was like. What is happening right now? How can I, like, how can I contribute to the world?

What am I, you know, but over time I realized, you know, everything in nature has cycles [00:27:00] and we are creatures of nature and we have cycles too. And one of those is dormancy. One of those is rest and it’s good and safe to rest.

Gissele: Yeah, you said so much there. I think, you know, we have such a culture of hustle and grind and, you know, like, that’s one of my things for 2024.

Let’s be done with that already. Like, let’s be, because I think if we’re gonna work hard, we gotta rest just as hard. And we just kind of, we, like, especially for me and in my culture and in my family, we always had this, this perspective of push through, push through, just push through, push, push through. But then you get to the point where you just can’t push through anymore, right?

Like you, all the stuff you’ve been pushing through, it just comes up at you. And it’s sort of like really focusing on being not the doing, but just the [00:28:00] being. Yeah. But we, we have a hard time identifying with just being right. Like think about how we introduce ourselves, you know, I’m a so and so and I do this and I do that and I do the other.

It’s not about, I’m just a human being, trying my best, I’m working on myself, but the resting component is so, so important and I find that if you don’t rest, your body will find ways to find rest for you. But yeah, I can’t believe how much our identity is related to, or connected to, how much we do.

One of the hardest, most challenging things I had to say to myself was really, Can I still love and accept myself even if I accomplish nothing in this world? Like, even if I don’t accomplish all the things, quote unquote, that I think I’m supposed to do? And I still just accept myself and just [00:29:00] be, why do you think that being has for so long been regarded as something that is just not the way, but, and is it changing from your perspective?

Alexis: Well, I think that it, it stems from internalized capitalism. You know, we’re told, I mean, basically, since the industrial revolution, people have just been work, you know, we’re just working, working, working, and there’s no seasons to it. You know, we removed, once we got out of agriculture, we removed the seasons.

If you go to a farming community, people take breaks because you have to. You know, that’s just how the natural world works. But if you’re in a city or you’re in, you know, some kind of industry that is technological, There are no breaks. There’s no [00:30:00] reason to have a break because a machine just goes. But I think, especially with, current generations, there’s a recognition that this is not, we’re not machines.

We can’t function that way. And we should not function that way. We deserve to have breaks. We deserve to have You know, our work and at the end of the workday. We deserve to have time with our friends. You know, we deserve to have a life. That’s not work. And I, I mean, you can see it kind of with the, the ways in which, unions have gotten more popular.

And more powerful again, which is wonderful. It’s wonderful. I think it’s wonderful that people are recognizing that we don’t have to produce that we can just be and that it’s [00:31:00] enough, you know, so much of so many mental health issues stem from this problem. This idea that you, you’re not worthy if you’re not producing, and you have to be, you know, going going going.

And if we could just. Kind of deal with this idea of internalized capitalism and let go of these ideas of like, produce, produce, produce, achieve, achieve, achieve, and rest. I think it would just be so much better, not only for us as human beings, but for our planet in so many

Gissele: ways. Agreed. Agreed. I love what you said about the seasons because I think, you know, so much of our life we’ve moved so far away from flow and from connecting to nature and from our own inner nature, that it’s, you know, it’s, it’s artificial, right?

It’s this, this, that we can go 24 7 and that we’re machines and we’re not in that. [00:32:00] Beingness. And so what do you think really helps you when you are in those moments where you get caught in the whole, you know, rat race and the whole I should be doing this and should be doing that. What helps you come back to yourself.

Alexis: I usually notice. So I do make lists for myself. Okay. I’m a list person. I like to have structure that helps me focus and helps me, you know, make sure I get things done that I do need to get done or want to get done. But I noticed sometimes, I’ll want to do more. And then I’ll be like, no, that’s my, that’s my trick is if I want to do more, I got the things done already.

I want to do more. I’ll be like, no, I’m going to stop now. And that keeps me from getting burnt out because it allows me to pace, you [00:33:00] know, spread out my energy and then I can do some fun things as opposed to just doing the work stuff. And obviously there are times where you have to. You have to do a little bit more because of obligations or whatever.

But for the most part, if I have the space to do that, I do work really hard at cultivating that space. I, I will take it, you know. I also pay attention to my body a lot. I mean, I really, I really try and, and pay attention like, okay, how does my body feel right now? You know, how do my joints feel? Have I been sitting too long?

You know, how do my eyes feel? Am I tired? Do I need to, you know, drink some water? Whatever the case may be, and then I’m just like, you know, I’m just gonna, even if I didn’t get everything done on my list, I’ll be like, Nope, my body says no.

Awesome.

Gissele: We don’t often listen to our bodies right [00:34:00] again it’s that push through culture that I could just do this and then the body finds a way so I think it’s beautiful that you are listening to your body as. You know, as a way to kind of stay connected to yourself. What are the other things that you do in order to honor your body for yourself?

Alexis: I have rituals of self care. I have like, and I say rituals. I mean, like, I don’t, I’m not like, you know, I’m not doing sage or something necessarily, but but like, I have like, there’s nothing wrong with that, but that’s just not me. You know, that’s not what I do. So, like, I have like a skin care routine, you know, in the morning and evening.

I give myself a facial massage when I put my lotions into my skin. I try and take a bath at least once a week, and I will either take I will scrub my skin, [00:35:00] or I will like soak in Epsom salts or something like that, and, you know, do a face mask, deep condition my hair, I mean, like the whole thing and it really is like a ritual and I, and then, you know, I’ll, my hair care routine, my face.

Skincare. I mean, it’s, it’s involved and I, I recognize that it’s involved. It’s not for everybody, but it’s definitely it’s a grounding practice and it’s, and it’s a ritualizing, practice that communicates very deeply that my body’s important, that, that my body is important than that, how I feel in my body is important.

I’ve worked really hard at. Wearing clothing that feels good to me, you know, that that makes me feel sexy. That makes me feel [00:36:00] pretty. That makes me feel comfortable and good in my body. You know, I, I think about what foods I eat, and I don’t mean this in like a, not in like a diet aesthetic way, but in a, like, how does this make my body feel when I eat it?

Does this feel good to me? Or does it feel, I mean, yes, like sometimes I want to have cake and I’m going to love some of those cookies. They feel good. Yeah. And also like. If I had cake all day, I would make myself feel sick. So, like, I have, like, you know, if I’m gonna have something like that, I have it once a day because that’s what, like, that’s what feels good to me, you know, and then, like, I’m like, okay, I wake up in the morning and I don’t just automatically have a certain breakfast.

I think about it. You know, I stop and I think and I’m like, what would feel good to me this morning to [00:37:00] eat? And then, you know, like I have like a kind of things to choose from and then like, I’m like, okay, this is the thing I want to have for breakfast this morning. You know, it’s, it’s those little things and I’ve just made it a habit.

To really honor my physical form and you know, like I, I dance for exercise. I love dancing and I do it because it’s fun for me. It feels good to my body. It feels like a celebration of life and it’s enjoyable when I get the movements, you know, better. Yeah. And so, yeah, there’s, there’s. But, like, there’s a couple of keys there, you know?

The key is, like, it needs to feel good, for me. And it needs to work with, like, my overall Life. And so, you know, this stuff that I do isn’t necessarily going to work for everyone and that’s [00:38:00] okay. You know, you don’t, it shouldn’t. They’re not me. Yeah,

Gissele: yeah, definitely. Well, it could definitely relate to some of the stuff you were saying.

I love skincare. I love, I love the process. I love especially since I discovered for me Korean skincare, like that’s one of my, it’s so much fun. I know, I love it. And like K beauty and there’s so many amazing things on Tik Tok that you, I’m learning about like my skin and how to, and it’s just so fun.

Like I think about it just, it’s just fun. It’s just, you know, like I can love and accept myself as I am and choose to change. Like it doesn’t have to be or right. And so I have fun with it. And so but one of the things you said to me just now really made me think, you know what? It’s, You know, it’s funny how you apply things in one part of the life, but not another.

I’m such a creature of habit when it comes to breakfast. Like I’m just like, I’m just going to have my own meal. And then I thought, [00:39:00] Oh, you know what, what would it, what would it be like every day? Just decide what do I, what does my body feel like today? What does it feel like? I do that in other areas of my life, including what I’m going to do for the day.

Like, you know, what’s my, you know, what’s. The source spirit, my higher self want me to do in terms of how do I serve today, like all of that stuff, but not in terms of like having fun with breakfast and some of this, the more habitual things that I noticed, but then less we are in habits, the more open we are to experiences and the more joy we can get out.

So thank you for that. I appreciate that. I’m going to try that tomorrow and see what. I hope don’t hear oatmeal

Alexis: again. . I did that today actually. I had I made myself, this was something I did for the first time. I made berry and cream cheese stuffed french toast for breakfast this morning.

It wasn’t as hard as it sounds. Just go on Pinterest. But I had been, you know, I was like, I would [00:40:00] really like, you know, and I was not super energetic this morning, but I was like, Nope, I’m gonna do it. And I did it and it was like, Oh, this is delightful. This is right. So yes, I definitely encourage you to explore that.

Yeah, for sure.

Gissele: Yeah. So thank you for that. one of the other things that I found with COVID was It just got us out of our usual habits, like we couldn’t go to the same workplaces, we couldn’t do the same things, we had to completely shift, and so from my perspective, it was something that needed to happen in terms of like our consciousness.

I was wondering is there anything you’re seeing for 2024 how our maybe consciousness may be changing or what people should be considering or doing anything in terms of

Alexis: 2024. I mean, I, so I did this practice.

This is, this will be a little story and it will explain. Yeah, yeah. I love stories. [00:41:00] So I did this practice called Omen Days, which it’s the, you’re, it’s a Celtic practice, that the 12 days of Christmastide or Yuletide, each day you look for signs and each of the 12 days corresponds to a month of the year.

Oh, cool. It is it is it’s it’s kind of fun and it’s kind of I’ve never done it before a few people that I knew were doing and I was like, you know, and I’m just going to do it. See what comes up. And I noticed a couple of things that came up in this, this,

it was a sign to me that I should do that. That I should have, like, a kind of ritual bath and kind of shifting into the next month and the next focus. And I think that having, I think that’s 1 thing that I think.

Is a good idea. Now, it doesn’t have to be a bath for you, but but thinking about honoring the [00:42:00] transition and making it sacred to us to some degree. I think bringing sacredness back into our regular life daily life is a really powerful thing because it helps ground you. It helps bring you into the present moment and it helps you recognize the beauty and the divinity in the everyday.

Another thing that I noticed, or another sign that kind of came up for me was this urge to embrace your zone of genius and to do the things that you recommend to other people. I think a lot of times we, we don’t. Honor those things for ourselves. We downplay the things that we’re really good at and our own power.

And so I was urged to do that in a big way for [00:43:00] myself. And I think that that’s something that’s really powerful for everyone. And I, and I think that, yeah, really honoring your own power and, and stepping into it. Mm-hmm, and embracing it. That would be a beautiful thing. And I think it would be really great if more people did it.

So I hope that anyone, that’s watching, listening to this will, will do that. I would love for that to be true. Oh, that’s,

Gissele: that’s, it’s so beautiful. Thank you for that. I definitely think that 2024, like, I feel like, I feel like there’s been such a shift in consciousness, like, that I think we’re starting to really understand how much we’ve given away our power to other people and other things.

So what you’re saying really resonates with me because I think that’s the sense that I’m getting that it really is about people stepping up into our own power and that’s why you’re seeing all of these. [00:44:00] Systems are being rocked and there’s just don’t working anymore. And so we’re trying to figure out, okay, so if not that, then what?

And so for me, it really is about understanding the role. Love and compassion play. Because this is just what resonates with me. Doesn’t have to resonate with others. It’s just that the role, the importance of that as the foundation of what we may be wanting to build moving forward. But I definitely. The changes that I hadn’t seen before, even my kids comment on the fact that they really seen some, they’ve seen some changes over time, in terms of how people are, the things that are coming up and sometimes even in extremes, like streams in behavior and the positive or it seems to behave you in the negative, but everything seems to be coming up to, for the light to be shine, like shown on, right.

But sometimes we don’t. Like we’re seeing it’s [00:45:00] an interesting time doesn’t interesting time to be

Alexis: alive. Right. Cause you’re like,

Gissele: what is times when I think to myself, sometimes the things we worship prioritize like this world is so topsy turvy. Doesn’t it not sometimes feel like this world is a little bit like the upside down.

Like the things we prioritize, the things we care about, the things we like when I go deep into myself and spirituality, like in, in terms of like in my heart, like when I really go inward, like the things that I think generate real love in me, I like all in experiences in the present moment and just like little tiny things that are so that made me feel so abundant and make me feel so thankful to be alive.

And then I’m like, well, why am I not [00:46:00] taking note of that in my every day? Like, why do I allow all of these other things to take my energy and attention when they’re not as important? Or maybe they are. I mean, they are important because I mean, we’re living this experience, but I guess I think just sometimes the things we value don’t make any sense

Alexis: to me anymore.

It’s true. I mean, it’s true. And I think that goes back to that internalized capitalism. I mean, it’s just like the values are just totally backwards because, because yeah, we’re, we’re social creatures. We need to do social things. We need to be with, with our people and, and yeah, and relishing those experiences.

That we can, that we can make. And I think when we get in touch with ourselves, when we, when we honor our power and we, we bring sacredness into our, into our life, then we start to see that, that shift even more. And I think you’re right. I think more people [00:47:00] are you know, embracing these things. And sometimes it’s, I mean, it starts with the little ones.

But it just builds and it compounds and it’s it’s really lovely to see,

Gissele: you know, one of the things that you mentioned is that internalized capitalism, and I try to think of systems in terms of like, how I contributed to those systems and how sometimes those systems reflect how I acted when I was hurtful.

Do we not buy into the whole capitalist. I think hook, line, and sinker. at least I did. Like, I think when I think back about these systems we have created and how we’ve contributed to them, I’m like, you know, it’s sort of like the terminology that we no longer use, that we used to use.

We’re like, remember when we used to say that? That’s so inappropriate and hurtful. What were we thinking? Yeah, it’s, you know, but hindsight is always

Alexis: 20 20, right? Yeah, totally.

Gissele: Strange times. [00:48:00] I was wondering if you could tell people a little bit about what you’re working on where they can find you. I know you have potentially a special offer for these listeners so I don’t know if you want to share that with people.

Alexis: You can you can find me on alexisdonkin.com. I’m also on Instagram and TikTok a lot.

https://www.instagram.com/alexis.donkin/

https://www.facebook.com/authoralexisdonkin

https://www.tiktok.com/alexis.donkin

I love DMs, so feel free to reach out and message me. I’m happy to chat with you about all the things, and you can, I did I, I do think that one of the best ways to work with me is to just. Do an ask a psychic session and the reason is that it’s basically a conversation like we’re having and you just, it’s just like one question.

Really? It’s like 20 minutes. It’s only 30 bucks. And, and if you mentioned this podcast, we’ll also get a chat day [00:49:00] later and. That can be helpful because sometimes the things that come up during a conversation, maybe things develop over time. And so then you can chat with me and be like, hey, this thing came up like, what do you think?

But regardless, when you leave the conversation, you will definitely have your, a clear next right step, you’ll feel affirmed, you’ll have assurances about your trajectory of where you’re going. And it just feels Good. So I’d love for you to take me up on that. That would be super great. Remember to reference this awesome podcast.

Because Giselle is fabulous in this conversation was so fun. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

Gissele: Yeah. So, oh, I do have 1 more question, which is what is your definition of unconditional love? I’m asking all my guests, regarding what their, what their perspective of, of love or unconditional love. Some people don’t define it as unconditional, but [00:50:00]

Alexis: well, it’s, it’s love.

I would say that unconditional love is love. Despite. It doesn’t matter. Right? It’s, it’s love for all of, all of the whole package. Conditioned love you, you, you love because, but the love despite is so much more powerful.

Gissele: Yeah, I love that you said that because you’re right. It’s the because versus.

Despite. Yeah. Oh, what a beautiful way to end the podcast. And thank you everyone to tune in, who tuned into our podcast today. Don’t forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content and join us another time for the love and compassion podcast with Gissele. See you soon.

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Gissele overdub: Hello and welcome to this podcast entitled, can we truly have unconditional compassion for those who hurt us? Lessons from a sexual assault. My guest today is a new Orleans based writer, teacher and compassion trainer with more than 20 years experience teaching and facilitating workshops and retreats with individuals who have faced challenging circumstances, including homelessness, domestic violence, HIV AIDS, wrongful conviction, incarceration, and torture.

She is a certified compassion cultivation trainer through the Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education. She’s also the founder of the Compassion Program at the Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola, as well as the founder of the Victim Outreach Program through the Louisiana Board of Pardons and Parole.

She is creative writing faculty at New Orleans Center for Creative Arts, and her writing includes the documentary play, Never Fight a Shark in Water, The Wrongful [00:01:00] Conviction of Gregory Bright. Which has been performed by Bright himself on stages across the country. And of course her memoir, The Jaguar Man.

Welcome, Laura.

Lara: Thank you for having me.

Gissele overdub: I’d love to talk, to start talking about your book. You touch on so many issues that are facing women and men today and how we have systems that aren’t moving forward in a compassionate way when it comes to sexual assault. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what inspired you to write the book.

The

Lara: backstory is I went and took a, was meant to be a two week vacation in Belize and on the fourth day of that trip, I was picked up by a man. Pretending to be a cab driver, and I was kidnapped into the jungle at knife point where I was robbed and raped twice. That’s one level of the story, and of course after that kind of a traumatic incident, you know, I was left with the question, what just happened?

But there was another what just happened that was [00:02:00] even bigger, that while I was in the jungle with this man, who I refer to as the Jaguar Man throughout the book, it mixed in with the violence was also this very profound experience of compassion, because It was compassion, I believe, that saved my life.

It was very obvious that this man was acting out of his own madness, or pain, or trouble. It was not personal to me, that I knew immediately. I never met this man before, so it couldn’t have been about me. So, really my only defense, not being able to to run or to hide or to overpower him, my only defense was to turn toward him and his pain and try to soothe him so that he would stop harming me.

And all of that made a lot of sense in the jungle. But the moment I was safe and away from him, it didn’t make sense anymore. And part of that confusion came because I was living in Los Angeles at the [00:03:00] time and I told people what happened. I wasn’t hiding it or ashamed in any way. But the reactions I got were so varied and so angry, and I really started to question my own approach to self defense.

And so the book was born out of wanting to have some control over the narrative, to shape it, to make sense of it, and how to think about and talk about compassion. I wanted to have a conversation about compassion in the face of violence. and, and that’s what birthed the Jaguar Man.

Gissele overdub: That’s beautiful. And of course, writing has been a tool and probably was a tool for you beforehand. Absolutely. Yeah. That’s kind

Lara: of how I orient in the world.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. And I loved how you kind of wrote this story because you kind of use facts and myths of storytelling. And I don’t know if you’ve heard of Dr.

Jean Houston, who is the author of Jump Time. And she [00:04:00] actually uses myth as a way to heal trauma. She actually has kind of this neat exercise where you think about a traumatic event and then use myth, use kind of a fairy tale in order to kind of retell your story as a healing tool. And so I was just wondering whether or not you could share why you had used kind of the facts and myth and whether it was kind of a tool for you to assist yourself in your healing.

Lara: When I got home from my encounter in Belize, I was really obsessed with wanting to know more about the man, the Jaguar Man. I wanted to understand what was driving him, why violence was the way he was expressing whatever he was going through. So when I sat down to write a memoir, I felt, I felt really blocked because so much of the truth of my story was about my obsession and about him.

How could I write a factual story when I didn’t have the facts? So [00:05:00] I named, within the memoir, what I name as fact is what I at least remember. Now, whether or not that’s factual, I don’t know, but it’s, it’s my memory to the best that I can recall. What I use as myth is what I use to fill out the story of who this man is in relation to me.

Gissele overdub: You very rarely use the word rape or sexual assault in your book. You actually kind of use the letter X. I was wondering if you could share with the audience why you, you opted to not use the word.

Lara: Right. So not using the word rape and using the symbol X instead is I think in many ways related to also your question about myth.

You know, when I hear the word rape, I think of the physical act. After my rape, I immediately had a wider perspective on that. It was so much more than the physical act. There was also the knife, and there was the jungle, there was the fear, [00:06:00] and there was the compassion, all mixed up.

And I didn’t want to use the word rape because I thought that would automatically come with a, you know, kind of a singular view. of the experience. within the book, I tried to redefine rape or X in lots of different ways to kind of give a 360, view. Of how I experienced that physical harm, but not just physically.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Can you share a little bit as to why you opted for the Jaguar?

Lara: Yeah. So again, the Jaguar, I guess it felt true to the emotional experience of him. He was very powerful, very predatory and aggressive and taking what he wanted. And we were in the jungle and it also Jaguars are prevalent in the jungles of Belize and in fact, Very close to where he had kidnapped me is a [00:07:00] jaguar preserve, so it seemed like an appropriate, again, kind of symbol or metaphor to use.

Gissele overdub: And it’s interesting because if jaguars are on a reserve, are they trapped?

Lara: Well, they have lots of room to roam. Just land that is is a sanctuary so that they wouldn’t be shot.

Gissele overdub: Okay, so it’s a protection. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful, because you had used the facts and myths about jaguars, and I know you were trying to introduce aspects of the individual’s history.

You had mentioned earlier that and you also mentioned it in the book, that compassion and love saved your life that day. Can you share a little bit more about that?

Lara: Yeah, that is my belief. I think my response to this man is what eventually helped him to, to calm down long enough to see me as a person separate from him.

I think. You know, my, [00:08:00] my stance was to, to just try to calm him, to listen to him. I gave him my full attention.

Gissele overdub: It’s like the power of loving presence.

Lara: Love is always going to be the strongest. And it was put to the test in this case. And it worked. Now, who’s to say it would work in every scenario? Of course.

I don’t know. In this case where there was, it was a one to one interaction, there was nothing else around us. Seeing him as an individual who needed care eventually helped him see me as an individual who didn’t deserve to be harmed. You know, it took time and he harmed me.

And at the same time, he was checking in to see who I was. He became more curious about me. And at the end of our encounter, he actually drove me to All the way back to my cabana where I was staying, as though he were my cab [00:09:00] driver. Because he said he didn’t want me to be in a place that wasn’t safe.

Right. So confusing, and yet at the same time it made sense because we had really come through the violence into seeing each other as people who needed care.

And it was hard earned.

Gissele overdub: I had finished reading your book. There were so many parts where I felt so emotional because lots of stuff was stirring for me.

And then actually encountered this 2017 TED talk by Valerie Kaur. And she talks about revolutionary love. She shares a story about how she’s from the Sikh community and how she had had several experiences of racism. She had a friend who was actually considered an uncle who was killed by a person due to a racist act.

She talks about how the brother of this man who was assassinated was able to forgive this murderer. And, you know, they talked to him in the prison. And she talks about [00:10:00] how we require in today’s society something called revolutionary love, which is love for ourselves, love for others, and love for our enemies.

And I found in your book, you talk about love with teeth, and she calls revolutionary love fierce and bloody. It was interesting to me how you attempted to kind of find humanity in the Jaguar man and try to understand his behavior to see him not just as this one dimensional abuser.

At one point in the book, you said love mixed with your fear gave you power. Can you explain a little bit about that?

Lara: Well, I think it was a self power and I think that having concern and compassion and even this weird, I call it jaguar love for him is an act of self love. You know, there’s that old expression that hurt people hurt people.

If I can extend compassion to someone who’s hurting and their hurting [00:11:00] ceases or, or at least dissolves a little bit, they will then be able to be better toward me. So, you know, it’s not just just an offering to somebody else. It’s very much an acknowledgement that we are so connected that I can’t be well, unless you are well, my wellness depends on your wellness and your wellness depends on mine.

And so it’s very much a powerful act of, of self love to love another, even perhaps even especially who we might consider an enemy, but that fear. That fear is human. And, you know, and love doesn’t necessarily come without other emotional qualities attached or right next to it. But there’s something very powerful and kind of adrenaline driving about loving through the power of fear.

If I hadn’t been through hell, it wouldn’t have been so urgent. [00:12:00] And I might have turned away from that emotion, but it was urgent and there was nothing else I could think to do. So I had to dig in to that love and, and that’s what, in fact, what changed me so fundamentally as a result of this. Like, there was no time to just sit back and theorize about, oh, do, do enemies deserve love?

Like, the fear was the propulsion to the love. In my case anyway, in that moment, one probably couldn’t have existed without the other.

Gissele overdub: That’s very powerful. You ask the question in your book, if you care for your enemy, is he still your enemy? I feel like in today’s society, we’re just kind of rejecting one another and not really willing to sit in the middle.

What we’re trying to do kind of with this work and with these podcasts is try to understand how we can come together. People talk about the issue of rape as being kind of something about power, [00:13:00] but you said, for the Jaguar man, this, you know, To me feels incomplete. And I was wondering if that meant kind of the thought about how really what you mentioned, right?

Hurt people, hurt people, and that truly empowered people do not really need to take power from others. I was wondering if that’s what maybe you were referring to, or if there was more to that comment.

Lara: Yeah. You know, when I hear about rape, the kind of the quick tagline is rape is about power. The person is trying to exert or express a power over the person they’re violating.

While that is, in fact, the experience, in my situation, I felt that it wasn’t just about power, but it was about wanting to have enough power to achieve something else. And in this case, he very clearly told me that he was desperately trying to connect. It was power in order to connect with some, someone he, you know, he [00:14:00] would, he told me about the problems of his life, his problems with the law, the separation from his wife, his he was not allowed to see his son who, who is, you know, the, the love of his life.

He thought about killing himself that morning. So I had all this information. And he just kept saying that he, he just wanted to feel. So it wasn’t power for the sake of power. It was power to achieve the thing that he was so desperately missing.

And, and that, that second part I think is crucial understanding of maybe what drives people to violence. That there is this hurt that is manifesting in a violent way. But the hurt itself is trying to be soothed, and there are other ways to soothed the hurt, of course. I think it also, it probably behooves us to define compassion as well, because I think a lot of A lot of flack that people [00:15:00] get about this radical kind of love.

It’s because there are a lot of myths about compassion. Compassion is recognizing the suffering, wishing for that suffering to be relieved, and being willing to help, or motivated to help. But compassion in no way means letting somebody off the hook. Compassion is not feeling sorry for someone. It’s not condoning bad behavior, and it doesn’t even mean that there’s forgiveness.

It simply means that you see their suffering, and you want to help to relieve the suffering. That’s right. You know, there are a lot of people who think that if we if we become a culture or an individual of compassion, that suddenly we’re walked all over or harmed even more. But in fact, compassion can be a very empowering way to kind of live in the world.

And I find that the more I’ve studied compassion, the [00:16:00] more I’ve learned about it, and the more I’ve cultivated and practiced it, actually, the stronger and clearer my boundaries get. One of the myths of compassion is that suddenly people will walk all over you and take advantage of you.

But in fact, compassion can help give us much clearer boundaries. There is that expression that you can be, that there’s fierce compassion. Compassion doesn’t mean that you are always gentle. It means that your action has the intention behind it to relieve suffering. That action can come and look in lots of different ways.

You know, the most compassionate thing might be in one situation to turn around and walk away, to leave. Another compassionate reaction might be to, to get involved you know, to try to actually be of service. And another one might be, in some cases, to use force. To change the course of an action, but always what would be the thing would [00:17:00] be the attention to relieve suffering.

And so I think it’s helpful to define that so that there’s not confusion about, oh, we’re not just saying love someone no matter what they do. We’re saying see the suffering that’s at the root cause of this behavior. Hold the person accountable and help them move beyond the limited Thinking and mindset that is driving this behavior.

Gissele overdub: You know, I’d like to believe that working from a place of compassion and love is our true nature. People that kind of do these behaviors tend to isolate themselves from others. And they, they kind of really are preventing themselves from tapping into their own love and compassion. There was a key part in the book that really had an emotional impact on me.

You kind of had a confrontation, what I would call the confrontation with God. I don’t want to spoil it for people, but I think it was one of the pivotal moments. For me in the book, at least it was but I do want to share kind of your thought about that God should have loved me more [00:18:00] and that, you know, that kind of belief that if there’s a God or there’s this kind of universal love, it’s that love is only given to people that deserve it.

Lara: You know, I, the scene that you’re referring to takes place in in a church that a friend took me to when I returned home to Los Angeles. But, you know, I was just feeling like, God, this, what in the world are you trying, what am I supposed to learn from this?

And there are a lot better ways to get my attention. You know, and I was just going back and forth in my mind. I was having this dialogue, it felt like with this, with this presence, you know, and I definitely felt as though I was being There was this other voice that was responding to me, but you know, at one point I, I just, you know, I, in my, this kind of rage toward God silently in my head and sitting in this church, I said, well, you know, do you love him more than me?

And, and I got this answer [00:19:00] back that I love you both the same. And that just did me in. I thought, no, that’s not okay. I said, God, you’re allowed to love him a little bit. Like I did. But really you should be loving me more. And, you know, and I was really petulant in my mind about this. And and I thought, no, no, no, this is, this is too big.

I’m in too deep here. And then, and then I, it really hit me that if I’m going to understand love, if I’m going to understand compassion, I have to be, I have to be willing for him to be loved. And again, not just in the theoretical sense, but, you know, we’re loved on earth through other people. And so if God’s going to love him, it’s going to, it’s going to come through others.

And one of those others was me. And would I accept that or wouldn’t I? And, and that’s where I was left. And then of course it took years, you know, to work through [00:20:00] that. Yeah, absolutely. Questions arrive and arise in these kind of momentary flashes. And then it takes years to work with them.

Gissele overdub: It’s difficult to get past the hurt.

Why should he be free and go around after doing this to people? Like we have a tendency to want to punish. And at one point in the book, you ask a question about when rape became a woman’s issue. you talk about how rape really belonged to his anger and his madness. And then you also got to talk about how the systems really weren’t designed to kind of help him get to the point where he.

would really understand the impact of his behavior. I was gathering some stats for my chat with you in Canada, according to the Sexual Assault Center. One in three women experience some sort of sexual assault in their lives. Something’s obviously not working for both men and [00:21:00] women.

Lara: It is really an epidemic, and women are the loudest voices speaking against rape.

And all the books on the topic are shelved in women’s studies. Sexual assault statistics primarily count the women, and so it’s been made to be this women’s issue. And, you know, and I really resent that rape has become a woman’s issue. And I, and, and I just, part of that resentment is just that I think that we’re, we’re in a loop of, of ineffectivity.

Although there are women who rape, ultimately it is a man’s men’s issue. And and I think that when we, when we get to the point where we’re willing to listen to men who have assaulted others and to understand what is driving them and what they need, what they didn’t receive, what sort of messages they’ve received, you know, we’re, [00:22:00] we’re getting better in our culture listening to women.

And listening to their experience, listening to the to the, to the victim or the survivor does not change the behavior of the offender. So I really would like to turn this on its head somehow, some way. And that’s one of the things that propelled me to want to go to, into, into a prison and just, you know, figure out what, what is missing, what has been missing in, in the healing of people who end up committing these really horrible.

violences and then suffer the consequences of it for the rest of their lives. Like that’s not working for anyone and it’s not healing women. You know, putting someone in jail does not heal a woman. I’m not saying people shouldn’t be in jail. I’m just saying it’s not a direct relationship to someone else’s healing.[00:23:00]

Gissele overdub: I’ve been thinking about kind of the whole concept of prison and how historically Like, our solution to our problems has been isolate and segregate, right? Like, this is how we treated children with developmental disabilities. This is how we’ve treated people with mental health problems. But we’re not really kind of addressing the problems.

You talk about how prison is really the place where the sickest people go, only to get more pain inflicted on them. One of the questions I wanted to ask is, what you thought we really need to kind of create systems that actually work for both men and women?

Lara: From working in the prison system, what I see are competing needs and competing purposes. There’s the purpose of isolation and separation, and in many cases that is appropriate. Some people would need to be removed from that community so they don’t cause harm. That is the first purpose of the criminal justice system.

Another is punishment, [00:24:00] and you know, retribution for caused harm. And then the third is rehabilitation. And what I see is that all three of these are functioning simultaneously, but in many cases at odds with one another. So once a person has been separated from their community, is incarcerated, then they’re offered rehabilitation programs, some incredible programs, at least in Angola.

And at the same time, there’s a lingering desire within the larger community for eternal punishment. And so we have, in many cases, a person whose mindset and behavior is very rehabilitated. Having served 20, 30 years in prison. And now we’re punishing a person who doesn’t really resemble the violent person of their past.

What is it that we intend incarceration to be? Who is it for? Is it for, is it for the individual who caused the harm? Is it for the survivor of the harm? Competition of, of needs and purposes is really causing [00:25:00] enormous confusion and strife and and chaos.

Gissele overdub: Very well put. I do find in these systems, there’s all these competing needs.

Doesn’t it feel like we’re making progress in terms of helping people understand and really truly rehabilitate? I was wondering if you could kind of share a little bit of the work, the compassion work that you’re doing within the prison system.

Lara: Kind of a circuitous path, I guess. They, when I got home, the first thing I did was to write the book.

And again, that was, that was just to find some clarity within my own thinking. And then as the book was about to be published, I got really scared. It’s like, oops, you know, am I sure of what I’m saying? And I don’t really have a circle of kind of compassionistas, you know, to make sure that he, that I can, that I can stand behind.

What I’m saying, like, am I out here on my own? And so I searched [00:26:00] and I found a program at Stanford University, the Compassion Cultivation Training. It’s an eight week science and mindfulness based Compassion training course. So I went and I got trained to teach that course and really what I was looking for was a community And answers to what is compassion because I knew I was going to be asked to talk about it and I wanted to talk about it beyond just my own experience, but I wanted to have a much more education, you know, the science and the research and the philosophy behind it.

So I, so I got trained in that. And then as a result of that certification through a series of kind of. You know, unexpected and remarkable events. I, I ended up being invited to Angola out of the blue to speak. And from that moment on, I’ve been going once a week ever since. And I teach the eight week compassion.

I teach that series to to men who [00:27:00] are incarcerated. That’s kind of the main component of the program. We also do shared compassion workshops. We do all day conferences in Louisiana. The idea is to bring people together and talk about the urgent issues within corrections through the lens of compassion.

It’s been really life changing for me. And I didn’t even know I would appreciate it. You know, I certainly have been kind of forced to, to face some questions. I didn’t necessarily want, want to face or know I wanted to face, you know, like, what is justice?

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Challenging work.

Lara: Yeah. You know, honestly. I have not encountered anyone yet at Angola who’s not willing or interested in being part of those questions in conversation. The biggest learning for me has been more an unlearning, unlearning impressions of who people are and who are in prison.

Gissele overdub: We tend [00:28:00] to make a lot of judgments about who people are

Lara: A lot of judgments and narrative that’s promoted through media and tv and movies. It’s just not at all what I’ve encountered. So it’s been a long process of unlearning before I could even build up new learning.

Gissele overdub: Would you be able to share maybe some of the outcomes you’ve seen after implementing the compassion training?

Lara: A lot of the outcomes are similar to the outcomes I’ve seen outside of prison. The hardest part of compassion is the self compassion. That is something I have noticed across the board with every group of people that I’ve run the Compassion Workshops with.

So one of the outcomes has been maybe greater self care, maybe a softer approach to their own pain. Sadness, loneliness, grief, shame. I think one of the biggest benefits of the class is creating a shared environment where it’s okay to be really honest and vulnerable. We sit face to face, sometimes in pairs, small groups or big groups, and we get [00:29:00] honest and real about how we’re feeling in that moment.

And there aren’t a lot of opportunities within prison or frankly outside either for that kind of focused and caring exchange. People crave that. They thrive on that, but we are so skillful at avoiding that.

Gissele overdub: So I’m just wondering what kind of support you, you have received from the leadership at the organization?

Lara: Oh, it’s, it’s been extraordinary support. Angola is a place that has, has welcomed me, you know, and I think part of.

What, what makes me interesting to the, to the participants in my classes is that I do come from a victim experience that, and I, I share that very openly. And so, and there’s such a desire within Angola to have access to the person they harmed, to be able to apologize, but there isn’t a mechanism for that.

And so, for me to be a [00:30:00] survivor of a violent crime and show interest and to be willing to understand it is refreshing, new, and important. And so, the prison administration has been very welcoming.

Gissele overdub: And I think that’s really instrumental in being able to do this kind of work within the prison system.

Lara: Absolutely.

Gissele overdub: Can you talk a little bit about what you think are kind of some key areas that are missing within the prison system in creating kind of more compassionate and healing places?

Lara: Maybe one of the places to start is outside of prison with our attitudes and assumptions. we’re really asking people who are incarcerated in this country to do a Herculean task of, of overriding and, you know, a harsh, cold environment in order to be a loving person. I don’t know. I, I’m not sure I did any, your question, any justice at all, but I think it’s just such a [00:31:00] huge question.

I don’t know where to begin, you know, because it’s at the individual system level, I think Ear Hustle do a great job. That’s, that’s a podcast that comes out of San Quentin in California, where the hosts are talking about the daily life of prison. And, and yet it just, it reminds people outside that, Oh, right.

We’re talking about individual people who are living individual lives, very full in many cases, lives with people, with jobs, within prison, with relationships, with families, relationships that they’re, that they’ve managed to maintain over decades. And you know, when we talk about quote unquote offenders, I think that’s problematic because it’s.

In many cases, the offense occurred decades ago, and yet we continue to refer to a person as an offender. we hold the very, the very definition of that person according to that act.

[00:32:00] I think, you know, if we are going to start changing a system, we’re also going to need to change your perception of the individuals within that system.

Gissele overdub: Absolutely. And I think you did a beautiful job answering the question. I mean, these are great points in terms of looking at the environments we’re creating top to bottom in, you know, whether or not we’re creating kind of these dehumanizing systems.

And looking at our attitudes is our purpose to punish is our purpose to really rehabilitate and can those two really coexist together. I think you’ve got us on the journey to kind of really think about how we can create more compassionate places. So, thank you. What’s next for you? Is there anything that’s coming up that you would like to share with us in terms of some of the work that you’re doing?

Lara: you know, I am carrying on This i’m i’m deep in it. I teach my full time job as I teach creative writing, at an arts conservatory high school and then You know, when I spend my time in Angola, I also [00:33:00] work with a victim outreach program. I think that’s really important to mention as well that, that my focus is, is really on you know, we talk about sides, you know, both sides, I, I really don’t see sides.

I see lots of people who who are hurting, who want to, who want to heal, And I’m just going to keep on keeping on.

Gissele overdub: I’d like to encourage everyone to go buy the Jaguar men available on Amazon.

And I’d like to thank you, Laura, for the work that you’re doing. It’s so impactful.

Lara: Thank you so much.

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TranscriptGissele overdub: [00:00:00] hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content.

Gissele: on today’s podcast, we’ll be talking about treating our mother wounds. And our next guest is Geraldine Crane. She’s a serene spiritual empowerment guide. She works with women who have had toxic or difficult relationships with their mothers, helping them to stop people pleasing, stop putting themselves last, and start loving and honoring themselves.

And in doing so, have a happier, healthier relationship with those they love. She uses spiritual hypnotherapy, coaching,

and

inner child therapy to help them reconnect with their true selves and the power they have within them. Previously, Geraldine worked as a probation officer, substance [00:01:00] misuse worker, and domestic abuse recovery worker. But after realizing That her own relationship with her mother was toxic. She took that very difficult step of cutting contact with her and going on a healing journey, which led her to this work, which she feels so passionately about.

Join me in welcoming Geraldine. Hi, Geraldine.

Geraldine: Hi, thank you. I love hearing you say my stuff. It sounds so good.

Gissele: Definitely. Can you give us a little bit more about your story in terms of how you shifted from being a probation officer or substance abuse officers to the work that you’re doing now?

Geraldine: Yeah,

it’s quite a long story to be fair. It’s been quite a little while since I worked as a probation officer. That was my first kind of serious job out of, you know, finishing university and things. But. It was, as I, probation got very difficult the funding went and it was all messed around with by our government.

[00:02:00] So, I left the probation service and started working with domestic violence victims. And the reason I got really interested in that is actually, for a short period I worked in a crisis team with substance misuse. And I helped a couple of women flee from violent relationships. One particular woman was very inspiring.

She was Bengali, didn’t speak English. Her husband was using substances had been thrown out by his family. We’d got him accommodation, managed to get her into the accommodation with him because it sounded like she was being used as a slave. And when we got them out, I was really concerned about her because she didn’t speak any English.

So I got her a peer support, somebody who could speak the language and give her a bit of support. Through them, we found out it was a violent relationship and, and she was amazing, so I would go and visit her. And in front of him, she’d act all timid. The minute he was out of the room, she was like, get me out of here.

It was amazing. I just love this woman. And I [00:03:00] ended up having to hide in the back of a taxi and go and get her out and just take her to go and get support. And it was really funny that day when I finished work, I lived over the other side of London at the time, and I got on the tube, got on my train.

It takes an hour and a half for me to get home, got off my train and she comes walking down the road in the other direction with somebody from a hostel. She’d obviously been placed near to where I live and she just came running up to me and gave me the biggest hug. And it was, she just went, thank you.

She couldn’t speak much English, but she just said, thank you. And I think she was, she was the step that got me, this is what I want to do. This is where I want to be. And I’d done a lot of work in probation, working with domestic violence perpetrators, And, and starting to understand it from that perspective.

But when I moved into working with the victims, I just loved it. Loved them. Women are incredible. Any woman who’s a victim of domestic violence and thinks she’s weak, it’s most likely exactly the opposite. The women were incredible, [00:04:00] but one of the exercises we did with these women to help them to understand how bad the abuse was so that they could understand why they felt so awful, even though now they were safe, was to go through what’s called the Duluth Power and Control Wheel, which goes through all the different kinds of abuse there are, not just physical and sexual.

So much more, the more subtle ones, psychological intimidation, isolation, those kinds of things. And as I started going through these and the more subtle underlying coercive behaviors, I was suddenly like, Oh, these are really, really familiar. And I was very unlucky at the time that I worked for somebody who just said, no, no, no, no, she’s your mother.

She loves you. Which coming from somebody who worked in a domestic violence charity was yeah. But I started after having my own children, which does bring things to the fore, you start thinking I wouldn’t do this to them. [00:05:00] But also I started seeing a counselor. I’d struggled to breastfeed and was starting to get a little bit depressed.

So I went and saw a counselor and she just said to me, do you realize that. You talk a lot about your mum. This is about your mum. And she gradually was also getting me to look in that direction. So it was like that perfect storm of having my own children, having the right counselling. And she really was brilliant.

And having, the training. And it was through that, that I started to realise things were really wrong. And then. And there was one particular day she just said to me, look, you just keep giving me excuses for her. You just keep, you know, defending her and really you, you should be furious. Like, why are you not furious with her?

And that really hit home. And, and I remember coming home and just sitting in the middle of my lounge floor, my sitting room floor, and just the room span and suddenly my world flips upside [00:06:00] down. I realized the reality my mother had put into my mind was not true. That I’ve been brainwashed. And it’s Everything just turned upside down and it really took me a while, but it was, I wasn’t ready to cut contact at that point.

It was when I then lost my job working at this charity with these women, that I started to get really severe anxiety again. And it’s, and it. It’s something I’ve been suffering with since I was very young, always assumed it was because I’d become my mother’s carer when I was only 12 for her physical and mental needs.

And I’d always assumed that was, it’s just the pressure of being a carer. But through this counseling had started to realize, no, it was actually the enmeshment and the codependency and the heavy weight of that relationship. Being her confidant, she would tell me every time she felt depressed, if she was suicidal, she would tell me about her experiences of sexual abuse in detail when I was only 12.

Because I [00:07:00] was her confidant, I was her safe space. You know, when her moods, when her moods really went low, nobody else could look after but me. And that was a lot to carry and I hadn’t realized

Gissele: that. For a 12 year old, yeah. Yeah. Even for somebody who’s older, like caregiving can actually be a lot.

Geraldine: Yeah, it’s a lot for anyone to carry, yeah.

And so by 19, I had my first breakdown and hadn’t, and, but she was constantly saying to me, well, it’s because you’ve, you’ve been my carer and nobody else has been helping. We’re the victim. We’re the victim. And it, it took this counselor to really start turning that around. So when this anxiety then, skyrocketed again, because I’d lost what I thought was my dream job at the time. I went back to see this counselor and again, she was like, come on, we know where this is really coming from. It’s not just this job. You would be able to cope with it if it wasn’t for this. And she just said, but what would, what would life look like without her in it?

Nobody had ever given me permission to [00:08:00] even consider that before. And very rarely do people when it’s your mom, but it’s exactly what I needed to hear. And my first response was no, no, no, I can’t do that. I love her. I can’t do that. But she was like, but something needs to change. So we have to get more boundaries in what, what do you need right now?

And so we agreed that I would go home and talk to her because Christmas was coming up. She was going to be in my house with my mother in law and they didn’t get on. Partly because my mother in law was so protective of me, actually. Mm, which is

Gissele: lovely, yeah.

Geraldine: Yeah, and so I just thought, well, out of all the people I can ask not to come, I should be able to ask my own mum.

You know, she’d been with us last year, my mother in law hadn’t, you know, I’m going to ask her not to come for Christmas, there was other options. But when I did, oh my lord.

Gissele: Oh yeah, I can imagine.

Geraldine: Yeah, there was shouting, screaming accusations, you know, you’re just trying to get me to do [00:09:00] this, that and the other, you know, you don’t care about me.

There was not one hint of, you’re not coping right now, I’m going to do what you need. There was not.

Gissele: Well, you’d always been the caregiver, right? And so if the situation was reversed at that moment, you were expecting her to give you something. And that might’ve been really challenging for you.

Geraldine: Yeah. And it was even with other members of the family, if people, you know, if I was the one that came last.

I was the caregiver for everybody so I can last and it just, I’m really glad she did respond that way though, because it made me realize I cannot get well with this relationship in my life. Like, I can’t do this. It felt like I was swimming in poison and I had to get out. Yeah. And I’m not saying that she’s poison.

It was the relationship was poison for me. For

Gissele: sure. For sure.

Geraldine: And that’s, I, I sent her a text message afterwards, which sounds really harsh, but I was terrified. And this is what people can’t get. [00:10:00] You don’t cut contact because it’s the first and easy option. You cut contact because it’s the last option. And usually by this point you’re terrified.

And you just don’t know what else to do because you’re just going around in circles. So I text her and said, I’m very sorry it’s come to this, but I, I, I can’t get well with this relationship and I need you to stay away from me and my family. I did question whether she should have contact with my kids, but my husband was just like, no.

I don’t, and you have to think if she’s not safe to be with you, she’s not safe to be with your children. And especially when you’ve got somebody who’s maybe covert narcissist, emotionally immature, they’re gonna use that relationship.

Gissele: So what was their response?

Geraldine: I can imagine. Well, I didn’t really give her a chance to have one because I blocked her.

I completely deleted because we’d have these arguments over WhatsApp with each other [00:11:00] really long. Like, oh, when I think back about it, it awful, but I just, I thought she’s going to use this against me. I deleted a lot. I blocked her. I deleted a lot. I blocked her from my email. The only way she was going to be able to contact me was to turn up at my door, which she could have done.

And I was terrified of for a long time. Or write to me and she never did any of that. She’s never made, the only time I have seen her was at my grandmother’s funeral. And we didn’t talk. We stayed in very different sections. Bless my grandmother, even before she died, was like, you make sure Geraldine doesn’t need to go near her.

You look after, she really had my back, bless her. Even in dying in hospital, she’s saying, make sure Geraldine knows when her mom’s coming in because I don’t want to see her. So yeah, so it’s a long story. Sorry. But yeah, so one, once, once I cut contact. Every emotion comes up, [00:12:00] every emotion you can imagine.

And it, and I needed time to heal. So I continued seeing the counselor for a while. And when I started feeling strong enough, I then went and trained as a hypnotherapist. And training as a hypnotherapist really reconnected me to my spiritual side. It had never gone away because when I was 19, I joined a spiritual development circle and learned that I had a particular ability to connect with spirit guides.

And those spirit guides, my God, they really support me through this whole process. And I’d really started plugging into them through the process. And then through the hypnotherapy, that connection just got stronger because you go to a certain frequency that just makes it easier. And they, they were amazing at just saying, you’ve done the right thing.

We’ve got your back. You need to stay away right now. And, but through that, so when I started up my own business, at first I was just, I’ll just help people with toxic relationships, just a clinical hypnotherapy. Then lockdown came [00:13:00] and I let my business go quiet. I wanted to focus on my children, but I knew to keep them well, I had to keep me well.

Yeah. So I meditated for two hours or I read, or you know, I did. I did a lot of self-development. I did some self hypnosis in a child, work on myself and. Again, connection with spirit got stronger. So I started sharing messages cause they were giving me loads of messages of reassurance. So I started sharing these online and it was my like coming out.

Like I am spiritual. I’m coming at people who knew me personally knew it, but professionally I haven’t. And the response was fantastic. So once I started being able to do my business again, I started meditating before seeing clients and I was channeling scripts for people and get really clear messages.

And that’s when my serene spiritual way of using hypnotherapy and coaching kind of developed. It was all guided by spirit, but also bringing in all my skills from hypnotherapy, [00:14:00] probation, substance abuse, all those. Skills that I’ve had professionally all brings it together and I’ve developed a serene way of working with people where I take them through stillness, emotions, reconnection, energy, now, and empowerment.

And I don’t always do it in that order. It depends on But we always go through that stuff and I’ve even, you know, developed a program now to help people do this online as well. So yeah. Well, that’s

Gissele overdub: wonderful. Thank you for sharing your story with us. It definitely, when I reflect on my life and I reflect on the people that I know, definitely the mother wound seems to be the one that seems to be the most impactful.

And it’s interesting how it plays out, right? And when I hear some of the historical things, some of the same themes come up that you were mentioning that the, the, downloading or dumping, like the emotional stress on the children. Yeah, like the rehashing, [00:15:00] the retelling stories, the, and it’s a form of creating trauma, traumatizing the children by just keep repeating it.

And so, but it’s, it’s. Difficult for a child to be able to put those kinds of boundaries. So it’s, I think as an adult, you start to realize, Hey, I have more power in this relationship that I’ve given myself. Well, that’s the

Geraldine: thing. It’s not up to the child to put those boundaries in place. It’s not the child’s responsibility.

A child can’t say, no, no, no, I’m not listening. You know, and it really can cause passive trauma because my mom shared with me details of her sexual abuse. It’s caused problems for me, a deep fear. I have a deep fear of something like that happening. I can’t watch scenes or read bits and books like that. It really shakes me up.

It triggers me massively and I’ve never experienced anything directly, but the, but the passive trauma is there.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, I remember my sister and I were talking about, she was reading this book and it [00:16:00] was talking about how, you know, when you’re raised by traumatized people, sometimes they use the same strategies that they use to survive, you know, they teach you those same strategies.

So even though it might not have happened to you, you’re still carrying that same, those same lessons, which is, is interesting. And you know, you talk about you know, Parents being able to not understand boundaries, right? There is that boundary, violation, if you may, right? And so, but I think when you get, when you become an adult, then you start to realize, Hey, maybe some of the stuff I was raised with, maybe not so okay.

Right? Like, when you start to expand your world, you start to realize. And so I think one of the most. Sometimes compassionate things we can do is to give ourselves space from our parents or to whether it be cutting off contact or creating some sort [00:17:00] of distance or even taking minor breaks if you’re caregiving, but sometimes often it’s sometimes the child’s happiness, even as an adult can sometimes be tied to To their parents and how they’re doing, and it’s still interesting how our parents can have that power over us, right?

Which we give them still. Right? And so that’s,

Geraldine: that’s really interesting. It’s written into your DNA to love and need your parents. It’s there and there’s nothing you can do about it. There’s a wonderful book that’s come out quite recently called Mother Hunger. And I think that really can explain it because, I mean, that’s not about particularly toxic.

Mothers, it’s, it’s about anybody who’s lost a mother because they’ve passed, you know, were adopted, but also had a neglectful or, or harmful mother, that you can still have that real panging and need to be mothered and nurtured. She talks about. [00:18:00] Nurturing, protection and guidance being those essential things that you need from a mother.

And if you don’t get them, it can cause this mother hunger later on in life. It can cause mother wounds as people talk about and it’s. It’s being really aware of those and what I find really helpful when I’m working with people. I don’t focus too much on mom. I focus more on, on them. Yeah. And there are people who are experts that can really help you to understand why mom behaved that way.

And you can, you can deep dive into that stuff. I find it’s good to know a little bit because it allows you to see that it’s not your fault. Because as children, we assume, especially when you’re little, you, you’re. Your brain is designed to make you think everything’s about me. Because the brain is, it’s egoic like that when it’s little.

It’s meant to be. It’s part of its development. So if something’s wrong, if something’s wrong with mom. It’s, it’s my fault and that’s [00:19:00] natural, but it’s starting to realize if you can just get some understanding of, of, of why maybe she’s emotionally mature, maybe narcissistic, maybe could be all sorts of reasons.

I feel most, most of it’s fear based at the end of the day. Yeah. It’s all fear. Yeah. Yeah. But it’s. But I also don’t think it’s good just to deep dive into that too much. Yeah, agreed. The focus is better to be on yourself because you can’t change her. Yeah. Doesn’t matter how much insight you get and wisdom you get about why she is the way she is, you’re not going to change her because only she can do

Gissele: that.

Agreed, absolutely. I think one of the biggest things that I learned in my journey is that I could actually be that for myself. I could be that parent. I was seeking. I could give myself the love I was seeking. I could give myself the attention I was seeking. And so that I didn’t need it from the outside.

And, you know, there was, there was a lot of forgiveness for myself as well [00:20:00] for some of the things that I thought were my fault that weren’t. , and as I started to forgive myself. I started to be able to forgive my parents more and maybe understand their journey more so I can, I can, because before that I could rationally understand it.

I knew both my parents stories. And if you look at their stories, you see a history of like trauma that’s just been passed down. But I think there was always an element of me that was, that felt hurt, that felt unseen, that felt devalued, but as I started to give it to myself, I felt that release of needing them to be anything other than they are.

And then I could forgive more. I could, appreciate more. What role has forgiveness, at least for yourself, , played in your life? For me,

Geraldine: I always think that you have to start with [00:21:00] acceptance first, and forgiveness comes. I think trying to make yourself forgiveness is not gonna work. Mm-Hmm. , like you said.

I think perfect example there is when you start loving and honouring and taking care of you and doing the healing work and being who you need to be for yourself, the it comes and, and it’s Don’t I try and get my clients not to focus on it too much because it will come naturally in time. And what tends to happen is when people, well, I need to forgive, they start punishing themselves all over again.

So instead I get them to focus on, we have to accept your mom is who she is and the way she behaves. You have to accept that you can’t change that.

So, I try and get them to focus more on acceptance and that’s accepting that their mother is the way she is.

She behaves the way she is and that’s not. going to change and if they hold on and wait for that, they’re just going to cause themselves more pain. They have to accept what’s happened. [00:22:00] Sometimes they just want to, you know, try and change, you can’t change the past. That’s not going to happen. But also accept that you’re not responsible for what happened to you, but you are responsible for healing your wounds and that, and not responsible for passing it on.

You know, that’s what you are responsible for. But once you start doing that work of really accepting and then accepting that you are worthy of happiness, you are worthy of peace, you are worthy of love, that you have a right to all those things and do whatever you need to do to get that, and it is different for everybody.

You have a right to feel the emotions. You feel that they are valid. Then you start going on that healing journey and forgiveness of yourself just come. You start to realize, okay there’s reasons I did some of the stuff I did, or I said the stuff I did, or I actually have good reason to need a break, to need firm boundaries with my mom, or to [00:23:00] need not to have contact.

And I agree with you, once you get on that journey of really loving and honoring yourself, the forgiveness will come naturally. And I just would never try and force it. Yeah. It won’t work. And also it comes in layers. I’ve been able to forgive my mum on a certain layer and then as I go healing a little bit deeper, something else comes out and I have to forgive again.

But it’s It’s not something I have to force, it just kind of, it just comes as I do the work and I also find the more and more I connect with my, what I call my inner divinity, is that part of you that’s connected to a universal divine loving energy, whatever you want to call it, I’m happy with that, but just the more and more I connect with that peaceful stillness, Inside me that’s connected to that, the more I’m able to get more compassion, more understanding, more, and it just, it makes that journey so much easier.

[00:24:00] And that’s why it’s such an important part of the work. When I’m helping people heal mother wounds, there is always a spiritual element because I find it, it helps. It’s what’s brought me the most peace.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I completely agree with what you said. And forgiveness doesn’t mean that you get into contact back with somebody again.

It doesn’t have to mean that. It just means that how you feel about the experience is changes and how you feel about yourself. You know, you raised something as you were talking, something kind of popped into my head, which was, you know, Allow yourself to live your dreams. You deserve it. You’re worthy. And one of the things that I used to have in the past before was there was an element of me that felt, well, my parents felt that they never left their dreams.

They never felt that they could do it. And neither did their parents and so on. There was almost an element of guilt to living my dream because they [00:25:00] didn’t, and why me and not them, but it’s so strange how we do that, but now I realize that whether they live our dreams or not is their choice. They get to choose to change themselves, they get to choose to live their dreams or not, and I don’t believe this is our only life, so if they don’t get it right this time, they get to come back and do it all over again.

And so it’s sort of allowed me to soften up and to be able to really be open and say, yes, I can live my dreams. I deserve it. I’m worth it. Do you often see people that carry that guilt on around living their dreams? Because maybe their predecessors have not been able to or don’t.

Geraldine: I mean, and it’s something I definitely recognize funny, actually just, I have hypnotherapy myself.

I think every good therapist should have therapy. And, and actually that’s what was coming up for me. Was some resistance to success and some of it was coming from guilt. And I [00:26:00] particularly remembered my, my mom coming to see me when we moved into the house and we’ve got this big, beautiful house we managed to buy because we had a flat in London and if you know anything about London, that the housing’s crazy and we managed to buy these big, beautiful house.

I was married to a really, my husband is a gorgeous, gorgeous human being, two beautiful kids, and my mum kind of came over and just, well, well, I had all that and I lost a lot, you know, your husband, you know, your father left me and I lost the house and it was just like, oh, and I, and I did carry this guilt of people coming around to the house and just like, well, how, what right do I have to own such a big, beautiful house, you know, and this real guilt around having stuff.

And, and like, I’m very lucky this, this is a garden room that I’m working from and still comes up like, Oh, but my, my husband’s worked really hard for it. And no,

Gissele overdub: you have to justify, but you don’t. And that’s the thing is. People put their own limiting beliefs on other people, right? So they said, well, you know, [00:27:00] I didn’t get to keep it for whatever reasons.

I, I lined out of it or what didn’t think I was worth it or whatever. And they tend to put that, I’ve seen that with people, like how they come, especially the older generation. Sometimes they’ll come in there sort of envy their children, or they’re sort of like, I haven’t personally experienced that. I find my parents are.

Fully in support of all my in my dreams. So I’m grateful for that. But I’ve seen other people in my life where there’s that interaction. And I kind of, you know, observe it kind of with curiosity and say, that’s interesting. I think of my children, I think of I want them to have more than me. I want them to be better than me.

IYou know what I mean? Like to see them to really flourish, but that dynamic between people where. They don’t want their children to excel or be it’s, it’s, I think there’s an element of shame and guilt in there, not maybe being able to fulfill their dream, but it’s interesting to watch because then, like you said, our job is not allow that.

To impact us, our [00:28:00] jobs, not allowed to give away our power to other people to determine what our capacity is. But, but it is amazing how we do that. And it’s not always just even with parents to with other people to people think, oh, I have to kind of diminish my light because of these. People in whatever, but because that’s what we’re taught, right?

We shouldn’t be, you should brag, you should be humble. You should be all of these things.

Geraldine: And trust me, you’re British. That’s

Gissele overdub: not right. British though. Yes. But yeah, like I’m British is very proper. So yeah. So, so then, so you’re taught these things that, but it’s when, as I was kind of healing those aspects, I realized it’s the other way around.

The more you shine your light, the way people go, Hey. I like that. I can do that too. There’s nothing different between me and Geraldine. If she lives her dream, then it’s, it’s a beacon for me to know that I can too.

Geraldine: So you’re taking me straight to a tool or a metaphor I use a lot with my clients.

Because one thing, one thing my clients tend to [00:29:00] do, most of the women I work with are highly sensitive and have I mean, at some point in their relationship with their mother or in other relationships being put in far too much responsibility. And so feel this responsibility to fix things for everybody else and feel the pain, especially with everything that’s going on in the world right now.

It can feel very heavy for the women I work with. They feel this deep responsibility to do something and almost. They will rub salt in their own wounds by watching the news and crying over, you know, seeing what’s happening in various parts of the world. And they’re heartbreaking in too. So I have to say to them, one, you’re not serving anybody else by, by drowning in other people’s souls.

You’re not helping them. You’re not serving anybody

Gissele overdub: by doing, you’re only contributing more suffering to the issue. You’re only contributing your suffering to that and adding more of

Geraldine: that. You’re just bringing down the consciousness, the energy of the world. Yeah. So I always say to them, be the lighthouse.

Yeah. Be the [00:30:00] lighthouse. Make sure that you have those firm base, that grounding, knowing who you are, have that really firm grounding in who you’ve got around you as well, that you are, you’ve got people around you who cheer you on, who know who you are, who support you in being. And then make sure that you’ve got really firm boundaries, that the walls of your lighthouse are not cracked.

You’re not letting any energies in that you should not be allowing in. And then you make sure that there’s all the energy running through so that your light shines really bright, because what happens then is your light from your lighthouse will guide other people. But what I find a lot of the women I work with and I have done myself is you start trying to get into everybody else’s boats and steer them the way you think they should go.

Well, one, your light is going to dim because your energy is too far spread and that’s no longer helping anyone. [00:31:00] But two, you’re likely to steer them in the wrong direction because that’s their boat and they need. To do their learning, they need to find their journey and you cannot, and I made that mistake a lot, thinking I knew what was best for people and I now know, shut up, let them get on with it and focus on me shining my light and getting as bright as I can so other people can find their own way home.

You will find that some people, when you start shining, don’t like it. That’s just a clear signal of who you need boundaries with. If they don’t like it, it’s, it’ll be triggering something in them. And that’s, but that’s. Not for you to worry about it just found boundary in that place, you know,

Gissele overdub: yeah, like you can, you can do a loving boundary.

It’s interesting. So when those situations happen and I’m shining my light and it’s triggering someone else, if it triggers a response in me, their [00:32:00] response, I know there’s something to heal for myself. Like so if I, if I’m being triggered by their trigger, then I’m like, okay, this is me. What’s good, because when it’s not about me, I’m able to observe that behavior and go, oh, that’s interesting.

Okay, like that, it doesn’t take anything away from me. This is their response. And when I decide to look at the people, not as a. Person like this person, I’m seeing you right now as a Geraldine, but it’s the divinity that you are. Exactly. You are not less than me. You’re not more than me. You, we were all just kind of the same energy juice essence, right?

And so you’re just going through your journey and the level of awareness that you have and whatever. So as I go on my journey and it’s really stepping up into my own power, I have less desire to really try to. fix or help or do other people. [00:33:00] But that’s been a kind of a mind shift for me because, because then I had to get to the point where I was like, if I’m not that, then who am I?

Because before I used to derive all my value from helping, right? Like, Oh, look at this helper, I’m saving with people. This is what makes me a good person. Yeah, it’s what makes me valuable. What makes me worthy. So one time I really had to wait because when things weren’t working out for me, there was a time when like things were just not flowing.

And I know I have things like, Oh, here I’m bringing loving, compassion to the world. And people are like crickets. And then I, I really had to, I really had to ask myself. If I don’t do anything in the world and don’t contribute anything in the world, nothing. If I just don’t do anything, I could be at home.

You imagine you meditated with myself, am I still going to be able to love and accept myself? And I had to really think about that. And I said, yes. Right. Even if I don’t accomplish anything in the world, I’m still worthy. I’m still lovable. I’m still valuable. I don’t have to earn my own love, [00:34:00] but that took a minute because we’re so caught up in Like you said, we want to fix things.

We’re taught to do things, to move things forward, to, to be of value, to be of service, especially if you’re used to, if it’s part of your identity, it’s, and it’s, it’s, if you were the responsible one, because that was the thing that kept coming up for me. Responsibility, responsibility, responsibility, when I was going through this journey of leaving my workplace and starting all of these things that I’m doing now And it was like, Oh my God, like I can’t, I’m not being responsible.

And so shifting that has been sort of interesting. What has been kind of your biggest mindset shift when you think back about where you are

Geraldine: and where you are now? I think it’s a really similar one. I’m just, one of the biggest things that tends to come up with myself and my clients is attaching your worth to your usefulness.

And [00:35:00] it’s something that when I work with spirit and spirit guides, they bring me time and time and time again, that there is nothing you need to do, be or have to have worth. You simply. You are a part of this universe. You are part of this loving energy and, and that is just beautiful. Bang, nothing, nothing more.

Like you say, you could sit in a room and do nothing, but you can be contributing to the consciousness of the world by simply sitting in a. Empty room and just having nice thoughts and sending them out, that’s powerful. So it’s, yeah, it’s a big thing that I work with my clients on, and it’s certainly been something I’ve had to really work on with myself.

And it comes up a lot when you run your own business. So being able to charge. And I, I very lucky I work with I have support around me with my business and I have a business consultant who’s always saying to me, stop trying to give [00:36:00] so much. You don’t, you’re over giving again and it’s because I want to, I want to help, I want to serve.

I’ve had to learn, like I now have a work mobile phone and a home mobile phone because I need to turn it off. To be able to serve right now. Yeah, I will get people texting me in crisis. In the middle of the night or, you know, and, and yes, they shouldn’t be doing that, but I work with people all over the world.

So sometimes they just don’t realize, you know, I’ve had, I’ve had it a couple of times where somebody sent me 30 voicemails. Just like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. So I need to be able to switch that off. And it is, it’s learning those boundaries and it has taken time. I had somebody message me the day before my mother in law’s funeral.

But I was able to say, I’m really sorry, I can’t help you now. But I have this group, you know, you’re in that free group on Facebook. Go and talk to them and I promise you, you will get support. She had 40 messages, two offers of free services, you know, [00:37:00] it’s a beautiful community and I knew they would have her back.

So it’s also, you know, part of, it’s been creating the community around me so I can do this work and not carry the load on my own. Yeah.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. And what a beautiful example because you didn’t leave the person hanging. I mean, you honored your boundaries, which was important because you needed to put your own oxygen mask on.

But you also said. Here’s this other offer of love where these other people, other beings can be there for you. So I think that’s, that’s incredible. And it reminds me, you’ve been talking a lot about boundaries. One of the things I observed really is people, you know, you use the analogy of a lighthouse.

I like to actually use the analogy of a boat, you know, like people often think that way. If you see someone drowning and you’re on a boat that they need to jump in the water with them and suffer with them. And so, and they’re only happy if the other person’s happy, or if the other person’s doing okay.

But it’s how, how can you get, how can you change your relationship with suffering and observing [00:38:00] people suffering in a way that you stay on the boat and you can give them a helping hand, but they can choose not to get on the boat. They can choose not to not to accept your help. And that’s okay. Able to still.

And what I say is hold a vision of them as they would want to be seen loving, compassionate, thriving, abundant, healthy, all of those things. I can hold that vision for them, extend a hand if they need it, but if they’re not willing to take it, I’m not choosing to go in the water with them. and to me, that’s a definition of compassion.

How has compassion, especially for yourself, Helped you get to where you are today.

Geraldine: So one of the ways I love that example, by the way, the boats, I will be, I’ll be pinching that line again. Oh yeah. Yeah. You just do, don’t you? Like I’ll grab that metaphor.

Gissele overdub: If it helps people who cares. Like, you know, I don’t even know where I got that from.

I use other people’s analogies all the [00:39:00] time.

Geraldine: One of the things that’s really helped me with compassion is to really accept that we are all divine beings having a human experience and here to learn her own lessons.

And that spirit has shown me time and time again, that. The people who are going through really awful things in other parts of the world are doing deep learning that will expand the universe, and to honor them for doing that learning, but I can’t do it for them, and I can’t take that away, but they, they’ve chosen on a soul level, they might not know it on a human level, but on a soul level to, to experience that because their soul needed to learn something, and I honor that.

And if I’m inspired to take some action, Start up a food bank, something like that. Great. But you’ve got to take that action from a love, not from a fear. And there’s a big difference there. But one of the things that helps me to really get this in my head is I think of life as a computer game. And everybody’s got their own avatars, [00:40:00] but everybody’s also got their own missions.

So the game you’re playing is the different game from what I’m playing and what I need to come here and learn, what my mission is may be different to yours and we may have different ways we need to get there. So it just allows me to be like, Oh, okay, I’m going to let you do you because I don’t know what computer game you’re actually playing.

Yours could be quite different from mine and that’s okay. And I really, I love to. Dive into this inside out understanding of, of realizing that we’re all living in the experience of our thinking, not our circumstance. So every individual is experiencing the world differently. They’re living in a completely different world anyway.

So my understanding of the world is coming through my thinking and their understanding of the world is coming through theirs and it may be very different. And you can see some people’s thinking, bless. You just think, Oh my God, what are you living in? You know, you know, when I get trolled by people online and I just think, Oh my goodness, you’re obviously living in some very [00:41:00] unpleasant thinking and it’s spilling out, but when you think of this as a computer game and that everybody’s on their own mission, it kind of just lets you know that, okay, I need to focus on playing my bit and let them.

Play their bit and it, and it, and it really helps me to just know where I need to focus my energy and let people get on with their learning.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. And I think, sorry, go ahead.

Geraldine: No, I just think you will get inspired. They’ll be inspired because people say, well, is this happening? I have to do something. Okay.

Get really still really connect with your wisdom rather than going, I have to do something and then running off because actually what you’re doing is. Acting out fear and you won’t see things clearly. It’s like having a dark cloud around you and I always say it’s like sending a mechanic into a, you know, into a garage with the lights switched off.

They’re going to make a few mistakes. Turn the lights off first, get your vibration up, get you seen clearly and then. And see what action feels right. [00:42:00]

Gissele overdub: Yeah, I completely agree. I think what you said was so spot on. I think so often we move to action and it comes from a place of fear or it comes from a place of pity, which is still low vibration.

It’s still like, you know, I think I’m above you. I think I’m better. I think that and so. I listened to this guy called Oh, what’s his name? Paul Selig. And he says, when we, when we think we’re above somebody, we’re actually below them. I always have that in my head when we think we’re above somebody, we’re actually below

Geraldine: them.

Your vibration, your consciousness.

Gissele overdub: I love that. It always cracks me up whenever I catch myself, And so, yeah, so often we have that, that, that. Desire to assist from that place of fear or pity or so a low vibration. And, you know, I love also what you said is we don’t often have an expanded view of what’s really going on.

And as I sort of began expanding my consciousness, [00:43:00] I realized how topsy turvy this world is. Like, in the sense, the things we worship, it’s like it’s all sort of like. Upside down, right?

And so when you start to think about things from a more expanded viewpoint, like you said, I have no idea what somebody’s life journey is about or what they chose or why they chose to experience something. So me trying to interfere. It’s not, it’s not, might not be in their best interest or mine.

No. When you tap in and go to that more expanded or ask for a more expanded perspective and say, you know, I don’t really understand this. This is triggering me, so I’m gonna deal with that part of myself. How can I be of love? In support to this person and then just wait, maybe it’s nothing. Maybe it’s just holding that.

I love holding the vision of people and how they would want to be seen and how they could. I don’t like to think of people as like, this is who they are. And this is who they’re [00:44:00] always going to be. Like, I would rather hold a vision of. Okay, this is whom they’re reflecting back to me right now. Mm-Hmm. But what if they could be more, what if they could be healed?

Happy, joyful, abundant. Yeah. And how could it maybe, maybe the best, the most only thing I can do is hold that space so that they can either align with it easily. Or it’s there for them if they choose, right?

Geraldine: Yeah, I think it’s, I find the more and more I connect with my spirituality and guidance that’s come through, it’s more and more, I need to let go of judgment.

Judgment of myself and of other people. And get really comfortable with mystery and not knowing. You know, like Through COVID, I would get people so certain you should be wearing a mask. No, you shouldn’t be wearing a mask. And do you know where I sat? I don’t know. If it feels right for me that day to wear one, I will.

If it doesn’t feel right another day, [00:45:00] I won’t. And I’m going to trust you that you have your wisdom and will be guided by your wisdom. And I, I didn’t, you know, I still don’t think we’ll know a full heartedly what really caused it or what was the right way to handle it until 50 years down the line. And even then, are we really going to know?

So I just, I find one of the things that’s brought me the greatest peace. It’s just letting go of the need to know and the need to be right. And I’ve just, I don’t hold very strong opinions on much these days. This is the odd thing. But most, most things I’m just, I’m, I’m willing to be really open minded about it and, and just let wisdom.

Guide me and trust the other people’s wisdom and their wisdom may be different like I’ve had a I was vegan for a while I’ve always been vegetarian and but I’m not going to judge somebody who eats meat That may be part of their life lesson. They’re learning. [00:46:00] I don’t know It may be part of my life lesson not to I don’t know and I’m but what feels right to me It’s not to eat meat but I am not going to tell somebody else what they should and shouldn’t be doing because I am not in their computer game.

I’m in mine. So I’m going to let you play yours. And, and yeah, and even when you see like, you know, there can be certain political leaders, you just think, Oh my God, what are they doing? Certainly in England, we’ve got a lot of those right now. And you just. But a part of me thinks, well, are they here to, and to aggravate, to cause change?

I have to have some faith that the universe has got us, that we’re, we hopefully, if we can keep a high frequency, let go of judgment, move towards compassion and love, we will eventually start moving in the right direction. And all I can do rather than judging that politician or getting very angry about it is hold, like you say, hold that space of love, try and see the divinity in everybody.

Then [00:47:00] nobody is special, but we’re all unique. There is the little spark. Some people are more connected to it than others. And just, just try and stay in that space of, I’m not gonna focus on your stuff because I need to focus on mine. And the more people that did that, I think the world would be much more peaceful.

The

Gissele overdub: world would be different, yeah. But we’re so uncomfortable with the unknown, aren’t we? because it takes trust and courage, right? There’s been so many times in my life when I wasn’t in my trusting mode. Where even the inner guidance that I got, I was like, what? Cause I was like, ah, okay.

So I’m being guided to do this. In my mind saying, what the hell are you doing? Like, shouldn’t it be? How is this going to happen? I, you, you know, you hear your dreams over here. How are you even going to get there? And it’s like, wow, like, you know, but [00:48:00] every time I trusted it always worked out always a hundred percent, a hundred percent.

100 percent response rate. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn’t enough.

Geraldine: I know.

Gissele overdub: It’s crazy. It’s crazy. Isn’t it? Like when you think about what I think back, I’m like, that’s so crazy. Every time I chose to trust and step in trust and follow my heart. It always worked out so beautifully. And yet I always felt when push came to shove, I had to control, I had to go back to that because we are so used to knowing everything.

You want to immediate information. You want to know the weather. Yeah, exactly. And so I think it’s, that is really stepping into your trust and in your knowingness, like not belief knowingness into your inner knowingness that comes with the, all of us are. Right. And instead of we’re so used to getting external wisdom, [00:49:00] like from other people, tell me what to do.

Tell me what I believe to me that really what you’re inviting people to do really is go back to, you know, you got to go back to your home base and figure out, okay, what’s my heart, what’s my Right. Right. What is that aspect of myself telling me because that’s really the only way that we’re going to get to finish our missions and understand the learnings that each of us have, right?

Geraldine: one thing I also do is I teach people. To connect with spirit guides and connect with their own inner divinity. So I have a circle, we meet twice a month and I’m only, I always say it’s for beginners because what I want to do is just give you that firm foundation to connect with spirit through love because some people play around with it and end up drawing different things in that are not loving.

So I always try and give people that firm foundation in love, but why also, what I’m trying to do is. Make you realize you are a divine being and that you are connected to a loving energy. You are part of that energy and there is wisdom. And my [00:50:00] experience of that is I have spirit guides around me too.

And so I get people to just connect with that. And then if they want to go and explore shamanism, they want to go and explore angels, or they want to do Reiki or, or go into like. Fun, you know, like rituals and witchcraft, that’s fine. Like you go and expand and go and do it as long as you know, at the end of the day, that you are part of a loving energy and you, and it’s got your back in whichever form that takes for you.

Great. I’m happy. I’m done. So I would say it’s, it’s quite, you know, I’m, I’m not somebody who’s going to introduce you to massive rituals and how to do cards in really fancy ways. I’m going to teach you the basics, but at the end of the day, one thing that COVID taught us is, you know, your yoga classes, your, you know, crystals, you could suddenly not be able to get hold of.

And you, you don’t need any of that. It’s wonderful. I love it all. What you need to know is that you are the divine.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. You are. [00:51:00] You are the one now. I’m really exploring that the, we are the God self, right? Yes. That, that we are like, the God-self. The God-self is within and it’s not out there that some God in the sky, whereas it’s, it’s us.

It’s really us. And so we have the ability and the power to create. Whatever we desire in a way that harms no one and in a way that uplifts like everyone, right. To be the lighthouse, like you were saying. Yeah.

Geraldine: It comes through a lot in readings that I get that the spirit is saying, you’re looking in the wrong direction.

Stop looking externally. Don’t look at gurus and all this kind of stuff. You go, go inward. It’s there.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So two more questions. In this season, we’re asking all of our guests what their definition of unconditional love is. Oh, I love that. What a

Geraldine: good question. Because obviously that’s the thing, that most of my clients haven’t had [00:52:00] or certainly not had from their mothers.

And what I try and help them to bring to themselves through their inner divinity and what I find spirit guides are incredibly good at helping you because they are, When you connect with spirit and you connect with the inner divinity, you connect with an energy of love that is, is not an emotion that comes and goes.

It’s a state of being, it’s a really pure love. And I kind of think that’s what unconditional love, unconditional love is accepting. It’s just pure acceptance of everything. The good. The bad, the ugly, you know, and you, you naturally, you would hope you would have that most of the time with your children that you just accept when they have their mood swings, you accept, you know, that they’re going to have good days, bad days, and you love them because of it.

Not despite it. But because of it, and sadly that’s not always able to happen because of wounds that we carry. [00:53:00] But if you want to really love your own children with a deep unconditional love, you have to start with you. You have to love yourself unconditionally. You can only love other people as much as you love yourself.

And you can feel this deep love for your children, but trust me, once you start really loving yourself, that love gets even deeper and even more beautiful. It’s, it really is. You have to start with yourself. You have to really love yourself. And, and yeah. And that unconditional love for yourself is accept.

It’s not thinking I’m the big, I am, I’m the best thing ever. It’s having that patience, tenderness, and kindness. For yourself, you know, accepting your shadows, your quirky sides, your annoying habits, you know, those things that you, that you do that you would have had a go at yourself for before, just accepting.

I am terrible for leaving things in places. I will walk out of a [00:54:00] restaurant and my husband scans the room like what she left this time. And once upon a time, I would have berated myself for it. Really said horrible things to myself. Whereas now I’m like. Bless me. I’ve done it again. Yeah.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. It’s so funny.

I also realized how I had changed my relationship with myself when I started, I would actually get into fits of laughter over something, not just doing dumb things, but putting myself in circumstances where I was like, when I look back in my life and I was like, Things I had done that I would beat myself up for now, it makes me laugh.

It’s like, I don’t know where this laugh comes from. It just thinks like, Oh, it’s like you say in the video game. You’re like, Oh, okay. Isn’t that funny. Isn’t that funny. How I did that. Isn’t that funny. Now that I, all my quirks and annoying things, they actually make me laugh, which is

Geraldine: sign of healing. It’s a real client’s clear sign of healing.

I remember a point where I knew I would, I was starting to forgive my mom was starting to heal because I was [00:55:00] sharing stories of things she did and was just laughing my socks off. You know, like walking into my house and just saying, well, I lost all and I just found it hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a real shine sign of being able to move on.

And and accept. So yeah, laughter is a good one.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, that’s a good one. Yeah. I can you share people where they can come work with you? What’s your website? Where can people find you on social media and so

Geraldine: on? Yeah, I’m I’m very easy to find. So I am on. I’m on TikTok. I’m on Instagram. I’m on Facebook. I’m on LinkedIn.

I generally just search Geraldine Crane. You will generally find me. My website is www. geraldinecrane.com. And there’s links to all my social media from there as well. So yeah, come find me. I have a beautiful group for women who’ve experienced a toxic relationship and want to heal with a spiritual.

connection. And it’s called serene, spiritual and [00:56:00] empowered. It’s healing mother wounds with the love of the universe. It’s a really beautiful group. The women in that just fantastic, but yeah, you can find out my, my group work and my one to one works all there. So

Gissele overdub: thank you. Thank you so much for being with us today and thank you for this amazing conversation.

I really, really enjoyed everything that we chatted about today and please join us for another episode of the loving compassion podcast with Giselle. Thank you.

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Transcript[00:00:00]

Gissele overdub: hello and welcome to the loving compassion podcast with Giselle. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content on today’s podcast.

We’ll be talking about treating our shame with compassion. Our guest is Jill Schultz, who is a disruptor, serial entrepreneur, author, and motivational speaker. Jill’s mission is to help release people from shame her own experience of experimenting with other children at a young age because of her own sexual trauma has led her to speak about this taboo topic and help anyone who has a secret or has felt shame of any kind to create a life of love success.

And abundance. Please join me in welcoming Jill. Hi, Jill.

Jill: Hi, Giselle. So good

Gissele overdub: to see you. Oh, so good to see you [00:01:00] too. Thank you so much for being on the show and talking about this very important topic. Shame is such an insidious thing that, you know, often we don’t talk about, but I think it’s something that without talking about it, we can’t get to our healing.

Yeah, I wanted to ask you if you could tell our audience a little bit about your story and how you came to do this work.

Jill: I really want to like, lay a little bit Of a foundation here for people who are maybe just hearing this type of a story for a first time, or if this is your story and you’re just hearing somebody say it out loud and you’re getting triggered, I need to know that your listeners are protected.

So there are lots of resources out there for people to have anonymous conversations around sexual trauma and rain is one of them are a I N N. So, please, please, please, if anything that I say is triggering to you. I need to know that you are seeking somebody to talk to you about this. Okay. [00:02:00] So thank you for letting me do that.

So I was molested when I was around three or four years old and I’m so grateful for the Me Too movement because I feel like it’s way easier for people to share about what’s happened to them in their lives around sexual trauma now than it ever has been before. But where my story goes deeper is that I, because of what somebody taught me to do.

At the ages of three or four, I was the little girl who was experimenting curiously and innocently with other children. And so the time frame that that was happening was, was in between the ages of seven and 12 and I lived with debilitating shame for 41 years thinking that I was the only little girl who ever did anything like that.

And sadly, it is way more common than you can even imagine. So my goal and my passion and my purpose is [00:03:00] to create this movement that we get to normalize this conversation. And I get to help people know that they’re not alone, because I thought I was alone. So that’s a little bit about me

Gissele overdub: to sell. Yeah.

Thank you very much for sharing that. What helped you kind of shift from that story of, of shame and hiding and secrecy to want to actually start to talk about it, to start to be able to heal it. Yeah, well, I knew

Jill: When I I’m 55 years old right now. So at the age of 33, I wasn’t connecting with men. I would walk into a room and a man would look at me and I’d immediately put my head down because I did not want a man to see me.

I thought if a man. Could see me and know what I had done. How could he love me? And now I say, Oh my God, how can a man not love me knowing what I’ve been through and all the healing that I’ve done? But because of that, I started thinking I needed to get help. And that’s when I first started [00:04:00] seeking out therapy.

I’ve done a lot of different work around my trauma. The last, you know, 30 years, but that was the very first step that I took was realizing that I wasn’t having normal relationships with men and very much wanting that. So that was really when

Gissele overdub: it started. What sort of labels did you put on yourself around kind of your sexualized behavior because I can only imagine that it must have been really terrible and because you felt so alone.

So what sort of things would you tell yourself about your behavior? Well, I’m

Jill: unlovable. I’m not worthy. Yeah, no, those were big ones and those affected me in many areas of my life. But the two that really, really stood out was around love in my life and around my business, around success in my businesses.

But yeah, definitely, you know, unworthy and un and unlovable, for sure. Unlovable is probably the, the biggest word that I. [00:05:00] Related to over and over and over again.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Thank you for bringing the issue of your business because people don’t often make the connection between the two in terms of business success and feeling issues of worthiness.

How did you come to that understanding? Was it just because it was also happening simultaneously in your life? Or did you have kind of like an aha moment that basically said, Oh, the reason I’m not allowing success is my life is because I don’t think I deserve it.

Jill: I don’t know if I can remember a moment where all of a sudden it was like this big epiphany, but I, I.

I’ve been in different coaching, settings with, with my business. And I was in this organization called EO entrepreneurs organization. It’s a huge international organization. It’s amazing. And I was in their accelerator program because you have to be making at least a million dollars in your business to be in the, the EO program, but they have an [00:06:00] accelerated program that helps you get there.

And I just remember sitting in that room with these people and thinking these people are brilliant. And I was struggling so hard to scale my business. I thought I was the dumbest person in the room and I’m quite smart and quite smart. But yeah, that was, that was a time when it was a really big indication to me that it was around imposter syndrome and, and self worth, those types of things for sure.

Gissele overdub: So what role in your experience has forgiveness played in being able to help you shift from that perspective that you are a person who’s hurtful for others and might be harming others to one where you realize that you yourself were harmed and wouldn’t have known any better.

Jill: Thank you because that was a really hard thing to sink in for me for a long time.

And I, I had, I started doing the therapy that I talked about when I was 33 [00:07:00] and I did landmark education in conjunction with that. And if you don’t know what landmark education is, it’s a really. Deep transformational work and the works all around, you know, when you’re pointing one finger at somebody else, you have three pointing back at yourself.

So we get to take responsibility. So I did that. And then, of course, I was fixed and healed. And at the age of 41, I was. Suffering from bulimia, which stems from sexual trauma. And so at the age of 41, I was still binging and purging. And I was like, you need to get a handle on this or you’re going to die. So I went back to therapy.

And with this gentleman, it was the first time that I was able to see the truth around that. You know, he asked me, he said, Knowing that I was in between the ages of seven and 12 and all of that was occurring. He said, who do you know that’s 12 years old? And I thought of my niece and he said, do you think you’re

niece reasons like an adult. Do you think she acts like an adult? Do you think she, you know, can, can think like [00:08:00] an adult? And it was the first time that I was like, it’s a little girl, like, Oh, it could bring tears to my eyes right now. Like it really was this powerful moment of release for me.

To finally be like, Oh my God, you get to give yourself a break. You were just a little girl when all this was happening. So thank you for asking that question.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, for sure. So that obviously was the first step towards the journey of forgiving yourself. And acknowledging that you were yourself somebody who was hurt.

Because a lot of those behaviors obviously are learned, right. But we may not know, obviously. Like what the origin may have been, and so to be able to look at yourself and your behavior with kindness or compassion, is really key. What role has compassion played in your life?

Jill: Compassion is new to me.

It’s, it’s a new word. It’s a new feeling. After I did therapy with, with [00:09:00] that. Therapist, I once again was fixed and so I went on a few more years of, you know, still being in stuck in my self loathing and my you know, not having love for myself and I started doing work another transformational program called hardcore leadership and that’s really where I was able to reason.

That I do get to love myself. I do get to forgive myself. I do get to have compassion for that little girl who that little girl was, was driving the bus my entire life. Like she was the one that was in making decisions and in charge of everything because I. Had all that pressure on her, you know, so doing that, that leadership work.

And I also did their PhD program, which sounds like I’m very important, but it’s, it’s a six month program of leadership. That’s just the next step up. And that’s really where I was able to, to step into that [00:10:00] role of compassion for myself. And now that I have compassion for myself. I get to have that for other people.

You know, it’s easy. It’s a really easy, easy thing for me to do now to have compassion for other people.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, thank you. And thank you for mentioning the word I was fixed because I think often when we go into these environments, we want. We want our healing to be done. And so we’re like, okay, I’m fixed. I can move on with my life, but we don’t realize that it’s kind of an ongoing process.

And it’s, is it not like an onion that you peel one layer and then you’re like, well, what the hell is this? Has it felt like that in terms of, as you start to heal more, you start to find more to heal. Yeah.

Jill: The onion is a big term in the transformational development world because it’s. There’s always a next layer.

There’s always, or in, in leadership, they call it, there’s always a deeper cut. Like there’s always the next cut that you get to make. So yes, that onion man. [00:11:00] Yeah,

Gissele overdub: that onion. And, and how has forgiving yourself, which I think from, from my perspective is a big aspect of loving ourselves. How did it help you forgive others like, would you ever get an opportunity to get closure on that aspect or is it still like a journey of forgiveness towards others?

Jill: No, forgiveness came way before anything else did. I was able to forget the person who hurt me because I knew whoever hurt me, somebody else hurt them. And the more that I have done research, I wrote a book all about my journey through all the shame. It just came out on November 1st. You know, healing is a huge component because if you can’t forgive that other person who hurt you, you can’t start the healing process.

And it’s not about, and I know, you know, this, it’s not about forgetting that person for them. It’s forgetting that person for you so that you can move forward and move on. But yeah, forgiveness came way before all of the self [00:12:00] love and that for me, that, that was easy. The other step was difficult.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, for sure.

I’m glad for you that forgiveness was something that came a lot easier because I think one of the biggest barriers is being able to say to ourselves that we’re even worthy of forgiveness,

you know, there’s, there’s this aspect of forgiveness. Sometimes it’s hard for us to forgive ourselves because on the one hand, we were working towards understanding that we’re worthy and it wasn’t our fault.

But on the other hand, 1 of the big things that we are working towards and gaining our mastery and stop giving away our power to other people is that we are responsible for the things we. And so how can you balance forgiveness for ourselves and accepting responsibility for what we have done? Yeah, that’s

Jill: really a deep, deep, deep question.

And it took me a very, very, very long time to get [00:13:00] that to get to that place. I actually. Forgave myself on a certain level before I, before I forgave the little girl. So what, for what she was doing, you know, I held on to, that was the, the, the, that was the root of the shame for me was. How I had acted out with other kids and how it maybe have affected them in their life.

And you, I just had to get to a place where I had to reiterate, you know, I was just a little girl. I was just a little girl. I was just a little girl and come to that place of really. It was, it was a hard step to take, to let myself off the hook for that. It was the hardest thing that I have done around.

Everything that I’ve created with the book and, and the healing and all of that. So I think you just kind of have to [00:14:00] put yourself back in the shoes of that child. And know that you get to give that child love and compassion, and you get to let that child off the hook because you holding onto that shame is doing nobody any good.

It’s not doing anybody any good. So yeah. Wow. Look at you went deep. You went deep girl. Yeah, that was, that was my biggest challenge was being able to let go of that. And I actually did. I, I, I found another therapist and I was so blessed to find her. My regular, the last therapist that I saw he was booked and this is such a God thing.

Gissele overdub: Share the story. What do you

Jill: mean? It’s a guy. Well, I am. So after finishing the book, I, I haven’t seen a therapist for quite some time. I had been doing the deep transformational works, which is a whole deeper level of therapy. And I had this huge community of people supporting me, [00:15:00] but once while I was writing the book and while I was in all that work, I had a lot of people coming to me and sharing their stories with me.

And so I have this. Huge container that I was holding for people plus all of the feelings and the, excuse me, and the emotions that came around writing the book and clearing that space and, and, you know, clearing the path family and like, it was a very, very intense year and a half.

for this book to come to fruition. And so I decided I’m like, you know, I, I get to go talk to somebody. I get to go get support. I get to go have somebody hold the cup for me for a while. And I reached out to my therapist and he was booked and like six weeks out. And I was like, no, I don’t, I don’t want to wait.

He’s like, I can refer you. And so he referred me to, I call her my therapist, not therapist because I literally saw her for like four sessions. And of course, I’m [00:16:00] fixed again, but I met her and she just had such a different perspective on how to go about healing at the level, at the stage that I was at.

And we did this beautiful Hawaiian forgiveness. Practice called Honoponopono and it released me from all of that. Like that was the final straw in my healing around that was I finally was able to release myself from all of that through that beautiful ceremony. And if you don’t know Honoponopono, I called it Lapu Lapu for a while because we didn’t know how to spell it.

Yeah, yeah. You can actually YouTube it and they’ll. Walk you through the meditation of how to do the Honoponopono practice, but it’s really really beautiful

Gissele overdub: I just learned so I’ve been practicing it for quite a while and I also found it really kind of really moving and really Impacted because I was able to energetically make changes in my [00:17:00] relationship with other people without actually physically making like without physically making changes Although it was like it was great I didn’t know this I didn’t know this story, but apparently how it began was, I guess he was a therapist or some sort of like health practitioner in Hawaii who was, I think, treating criminals or treating some sort of people with mental illness.

And so what he did was he didn’t treat anybody one on one. He took the files and he would do that. Pono. I always say that wrong. I think I put too much PO. And, and apparently like each of them would get cured as he was doing that just in the files independently, independently was like, he got the files and he was doing the, this, apparently this is how this started.

a friend of mine had shared that with me. And I have yet to look it up. So I’m so thankful that you reminded me that I wanted to look up this story because apparently it was like something that was magical and miraculous about [00:18:00] the, the impact of that practice.

And I think it’s so key because it has, like, major components, like, it has all those components that have loving compassion included in it. So I’m sorry, please forgive me. Thank you. I love you and,

Jill: me. I forgive you. So if there was any energy there about something, maybe that person had done to me that I needed to release, I was able to release that energy to which I thought was really interesting because when I saw when I saw the practice, I saw that it didn’t have that line in it.

I’m like, Oh, she added that. Which is really cool because I had a couple people in my life that I was harboring some feelings around because I felt some injustice and how I’ve been treated and I was able to let that go. But sorry, I just went off on a tangent. No, no,

Gissele overdub: this is absolutely great. And you can adjust it to anything to better meet your needs.

How I did that part was I would envision myself. And I would say I’m sorry to myself. Like I would say I’m sorry to little Giselle. [00:19:00] I would say I’m sorry to my young self and all for all of those things I did that I felt had hurt her. And so, yeah, so that’s how I did that part because I was like, because I had the same thought.

I’m like, okay, so I’m sorry if you’re thinking about apologizing to someone else. But what about when I want to apologize to myself? Because I feel like all of us have done things that we feel shame, guilt, and this is why I think this topic is so important because you’re bringing to light something that I believe happens a lot more than we believe it does,there’s all of this trauma that, that as I feel as a humanity, we’re carrying and.

Yeah. One of the ways to kind of bring light into that, to that. Shame is to talk about it. Right. What role did secrecy have in keeping kind of that trauma from like healing? [00:20:00] Oh, it was all

Jill: of us. I mean, secrecy was everything, you know, I never wanted anybody to know. In fact, now that I’m speaking very publicly about this, I’ve had two friends say to me.

Wow. You know, you always seem like the happiest person in the room. You know, you were always, you know, you walk in a room and, and you just be the most bubbly person there. How could I not know that you were in so much pain? And I said, because we get really good at keeping secrets, you know, and it really, I love that you pointed that out too, because it doesn’t, everybody has something.

It doesn’t have to be related to sexual trauma. Everybody has a secret. And so when you hold on to a secret, it is what is holding you back from being the powerful you and creating the most beautiful life that you get to create. That’s, that’s what’s holding you back and saying it out loud. Shame cannot live in the light.

So, and can I just tell you [00:21:00] something too? Cause I think it’s really important for people to hear this. I remember I first knew that I got to go to therapy to start healing from all of this. And I’m sure if you’re listening right now and you have my story and you’ve never dealt with it, or if you’re holding onto a secret of any kind and you know, it’s time for you to look at in the eyeballs and say, you don’t owe me anymore.

I just have this awful, awful pit in my stomach. And I thought, how can I go in and talk to this person and let them know my dirty little secret? They’re going to think I’m a monster. They’re going to think I’m a pedophile. Those were the thoughts that I had of a little 12 year old girl. And so going in there and sharing my story, Oh God, this could just, this kills me every time.

The level of love and compassion and kindness and understanding that was on the other side of me saying those words out loud [00:22:00] to this day is just a effing miracle to me, and it has happened over and over and over again. I have shared my story now. Obviously on a platform like this, where there’s many, many people listening, I, I wouldn’t even know how many people have heard my story to this point, but individually, when I decided to write the book, I said, I need to tell my people because I didn’t want my book to come out and then be like, what the hell?

So I sat down and I probably shared my story now, 40 times. And every single time I have shared it, I’ve, there’s been so much love and compassionate understanding. So I need you to know if this is you or if you’re holding onto something, whatever you have made up about what’s on the other side of saying it out loud is a lie and you get to get it out of your body because the other side of healing is.

Magical.

Gissele overdub: [00:23:00] Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that because I think that’s so important. Often the things we fear in our minds tend to be bigger than they are. That has also been my experience. Like I had all of these things that I thought once I face this fear, it’s going to break me. It’s going to, it’s going to be the death of me, but the truth of matter is on the other side was like, my dream was, was like people who were ready to support and love me.

Did you find that your family reacted in a positive way? You know, you might be like, okay, how did I miss it or, or, or, you know, like parents have lots of different feelings about their role in their performance when something happens to their children? So I was wondering what the, what the reaction was, if, if you’re okay, sharing it.

A

Jill: hundred percent. My, my parents are angels from heaven. Like I adopt my parents out to people. They are the most [00:24:00] beautiful people. And I, it just breaks my heart because I heard Joyce Meyer say one time, I don’t know if you don’t know who Joyce Meyer, she, she’s a female evangelist and she’s amazing, but she said, you know, if you, if you were raised and you had loving parents, you’re already me.

Way ahead of the curve. And so I’m so grateful that I chose my parents or however that works because they are beautiful, beautiful people. And I, I already knew that they would be a hundred percent supportive of me stepping into this, but it was hard. It was hard. And of course there’s the guilt. And you know, my mom is like, I just don’t understand how this could have happened.

We knew where you were all the time. And sadly. Oftentimes it’s a family member that is the one that’s abusing. So, you know, you, you never think when you drop your child off at an uncle’s or a cousin’s or a grandparent, that they’re going to hurt your baby. But oftentimes it is, it [00:25:00] is. So yes, they are, they were super supportive, but there was that.

You know, they, they feel guilty and they still apologize to me. I’m like, there’s nothing to be sorry about. And now, now I get to look at this as a gift, like everything that’s happened to me, and if you’re probably going, what the, what, how can she think of her? This, everything else she’s been through is a gift, but because I have stepped into my purpose and knowing that this is what I get to do in my lifetime.

I get to help you. I get to help you. You, I get to help anybody that’s in this pain to know that they’re not alone and that they get to get help and they get to love themselves and forgive themselves and create a beautiful life for themselves. So I feel very blessed. I feel very blessed. And trust me, it took a long time to get to this place, but I wake up.

So happy every single day now, because I have taken the steps that I needed to, I was brave and courageous and you get to be brave. You get to be courageous and you get to [00:26:00] look at this and, and heal from it. So

Gissele overdub: yeah. Yeah. But you said, I feel so spot on. I feel the same way. I think that, there are times in our lives when we have challenges, but when we reflect back, we can see the gifts that they.

Those challenges are brought to us. You know, and I kind of have this thing where I’ve made a choice that I believe that everything happens for my good. And I’m just leaving it at that. Right. Yeah. And even though sometimes it can feel really overwhelming, but as you said, it really is important to have, courage and to be brave in those moments.

What role has trust played in your life in terms of being able to have the courage and have the, the, the bravery to be able to keep moving or taking one step forward? Trust

Jill: is also a new word for me. [00:27:00] Yeah. I think. The, the steps that I was able to take at 33 and at 41. And that was like, I think that that was, that was God.

And I don’t know if you believe in God universe, whatever you or your listeners believe in, I call God, God, and God has been. Huge in my healing. I think every single time that I was like, okay, I need to go. I need to go to therapy at it. I think it was just God like trickling on me. Like, okay, it’s time for you to do this.

It’s time for you to do this, you know? And, and, and he was getting me ready for what I get to do now. Like I’m finally ready to step into this. If this had been something that had been presented to me when I was 33, there’s no way. You know, there’s no, but it was little steps, but I hope for your audience that by us having this conversation now, [00:28:00] they’re not taking 41 years to get to this place.

You know, I want, I want your, your people to get there like this now, you know? So that’s why we get to have these conversations. That’s why we get to bring this topic up. That’s why we get to normalize this topic, because as you said, it’s way more common and you’re not alone.

Gissele overdub: I’m sorry. You’re not special,

Jill: but you’re not. There’s a lot in this pain. And so you get to, you get to get past it because you have things to do. You have people that help by getting past it. You know? Yeah, for

Gissele overdub: sure. for sure. so going back to the whole financial and success, did you find that as you started to forgive yourself and love yourself more, that the finance part of it actually started to expand?

Like that you were able to allow more success in your life?

Jill: Yeah. That’s a great question because that’s what I’m in right now. Like I’m a [00:29:00] manifesting fool. Do you manifest? I, I do. Yeah. That good Manifesting and I talk about it. Yeah, I’m calling in the most magical things right now and you talked about trust like when I finally surrendered into the fact that this was my purpose, which I went kicking and screaming.

I’m like, no way. I’m not. This is not what I’m going to do. I’m not going to step out and have this conversation. But when I finally surrendered to that, I got, I got into this place of. Okay, this is what God wants. If God wants this, God gets to figure out all the BS. So any obstacle. Yeah. Any obstacle that came up during the book and there were obstacles.

Trust me. I would just be like. Figure it out. I’m going to put one foot in front of the other. I’m going to ask you every single day. What can I do to move this forward? And you are going to clear the path. So you’re talking about abundance. I’m like at the precipice [00:30:00] of all of this massive avalanche of things happening.

I’m meeting, I’m meeting with an important person tomorrow because of all of this around the book. So, yeah. You know, and I’m really excited about what I’m creating in that way. And I also found, and I don’t know if this is off topic or if this is going to land or if this is relevant for people, but I have found that the more that I step into who I am and my purpose and.

All of those things, all the other stuff isn’t really that important to me anymore. Like I’m so truly, divinely happy inside that I’m not looking for external things to make me happy. I want some things. There’s a lot of things that I want, but I’m, I’m not, I don’t need them. To make me feel this happy because I am blissful and it’s weird because to be this happy every [00:31:00] day.

It’s such a blessing, you

Gissele overdub: know? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I, I totally hear exactly what you’re saying. There has to be an element of trust. You saying that you’re, it’s kind of new to your journey, but in order for you to trust God source universe, you have to be able to trust because if you didn’t trust the people in your life.

There’s no way you were going to trust some random source universe being out there. Right. And so there isn’t a strong element of trust in you that enables you to surrender, enables you to say, okay, you want me on this journey. You need to figure this out. Which makes, yeah, it does. And it takes, like you said, something you’re very familiar with, which is extraordinary courage and bravery to be able to not see the path, but say, okay, This is what I’m being guided to do.

And this is what I’m doing, especially since in the beginning, you didn’t know that you were going to get all this love and compassion and support that it [00:32:00] wasn’t going to be canceled. Right. Or ostracized given kind of the kind of environment that we are currently. And so I think that’s, I think that’s fabulous.

And I also agree with you. About the more you start to find joy in everyday life, the less you need things out there to be. A specific way, because I could, because I see people that, you know, you could have everything and still be unhappy and have nothing and still be completely joyful, grateful for life.

And so that doesn’t mean you have to, it just means that no matter where you go, there you are. Right. And so it’s important for you to find that really that joy within. And it sounds like you have, so that’s yeah. Yeah.

Jill: I, it’s, it was a while to get here, but if, you know, if you have a calling on your heart [00:33:00] and it, even if it’s hard, like just do it, do it as fast as you can because, that’s where the true joy and bliss comes from.

Like I love doing these podcasts. It is one of my most fun things to do is to get to meet people like you and share this conversation knowing that it’s going to ripple and help other people. You know, it’s really one of my favorite things that I get to do now is

Gissele overdub: yeah, for sure. Thanks. For sure. And I’m so grateful that you were able to put the connection between like loving yourself more and then being able to open then allowing yourself to receive because allowing is a big part of of stepping into your abundance.

A lot of us don’t allow ourselves to receive because we don’t feel worthy. We don’t feel good enough.we feel shame and all those feelings. What. Is your definition of self love? Like, how do you feel like you’re loving yourself now? And do you feel that there’s still more loving to be done?

Jill: Well, I [00:34:00] talk to myself all the time now. How are you doing today? Hey, gorgeous. How are you doing? You’re doing great. Like I do a lot of self talk and I would have never done that before. It was always. The negative re over and over and over again. And I also, I take a lot of time off to be quite honest with you.

I’m a serial entrepreneur and I have been doing the blind for years and years and years. And the coaching program, the business coaching program that I’m in, she calls it flex time. She takes five months off a year and she’s a nice. Yeah. So I have committed to taking Friday, Saturdays and Sundays off. And those are my knee days.

That’s that’s self love to me. And honestly, sometimes if you’re an entrepreneur, that’s when you get your ideas, because you have given yourself a break to relax and just be, and not worry about, you know, what’s next. And that’s when that’s, it’s almost a form of meditation. You know, that’s when you get to be open enough [00:35:00] to hear the ideas coming in.

So those are. Those are just a couple of the ways that I, I get to create self love for myself.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. And that’s, that’s so, so beautiful. I I’m in full and total agreement that the grind is done, that we are just so shifting away from having to grind it out in, you know, just kind of force ourselves to do things we don’t want to do.

I think more that we’re kind of really stepping into inspired action. Right. Can we feel inspired to do this and follow our joy and bliss rather than having to do it? But again, for me, that whole perspective about earning my way and having to do something, never getting anything for nothing is sort of tied down to that feeling like we have to earn love, feeling that we have to earn acceptance and earn value and earn belonging.

And I think there’s a real shift in feeling like we are worthy just because we exist. [00:36:00] No other reason, even if we do things that may be hurtful or even do things that would be positive. We still deserve to be loved and accepted and valued and all of the good things in life. Right? We’re human,

Jill: you know, we’re going to make mistakes.

It’s inevitable.

Gissele overdub: And you just, that’s what we get to do.

Jill: Yeah. You just get to reset. Yeah. This is one of the things that I’ve, I’ve learned through this leadership program is being able to shift out of my emotion very quickly. So something gets me riled up. I’m able to step outside and go, this doesn’t really matter.

Like who cares if the guy cut you off on the freeway, you know, send them love and light instead of being all crabby about it. So just being able to step out of any of that type of emotion very quickly.

Gissele overdub: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I completely agree with that. I realized how much I was giving my power away to other people to determine how I felt about myself in my life.

Right. But when I stopped doing that, I started to [00:37:00] realize. You don’t get to decide if I have a bad day or not. You don’t get to decide if I have, if I believe in myself or not. How has taking your power back to help you, address some of the, some of the feelings like the shame and guilt and so on that you might’ve had when you were feeling like you were, you know, like an oppressor or, or a victimizer.

Jill: Well, I just know now that I get to, I get to have all the things that I want in my life, you know, I just, I know that. And when I I was doing some work around money last summer and I. Came across Amanda Francis. Do you know who Amanda Francis is? She’s a money queen. She’s a manifester. She wrote a book called Rich as F.

She’s really, really fun to listen to, but she said everything [00:38:00] on our heart was given to us by God. And it is our only job every single day to feel what it feels like to have those things and know that you get to have those things. And I know That everything on my heart, I truly get to have, I really get to have those things.

And I have some crazy things on my heart. And it’s so fun to know that I, I like, I am worthy of having those things. You know, I’ve just, I’ve let go of all the shame. I lived with it for 41 years. I call it my shame cloud. I literally had this dark cloud that followed me. Everywhere I went, I would go to bed, it was there, I would wake up, it was there.

And now I look for that cloud and it’s gone, and I’m like, my, my cloud’s gone. It’s just amazing to be able to go through life now knowing that, you know, I deserve to have love. I deserve to have abundance. I deserve to have amazing relationships. You know, I just, it’s just what I [00:39:00] know now.

Gissele overdub: So what’s the difference between believing and knowing?

Because there are some people that go around like having a belief, like affirming, affirming, affirming, affirming, and it doesn’t stick and the there’s really tapping into that knowingness of, you know what, I get to do this. I get to experience this

Jill: for me. That’s just, I think, a God thing for me. Like, it’s something that he’s put into my heart.

I remember when I was a little girl. I was probably in between the ages of six and eight, and I just knew from that age that I was going to have a very successful business that I used to visualize myself in this beautiful. And whenever I visualize, it’s always, everything’s been wiped. Everything’s white.

Beautiful glass desk and this beautiful white offices and people running around everywhere helping people and just doing, you know, knowing that I was making a difference in the world. And so that’s what I mean about just knowing and not believing. It’s [00:40:00] just you have this deep seated. Understanding that it’s just part of who you are and you get to, you get to have those things.

You get to, you just get to be

Gissele overdub: those things. Did you still have that knowing what you had the kind of the cloud of shame or was it something that kind of moved to the back of your mind? Something you forgot about? Or was it always there?

Jill: It was always there. It was always there. I would see my, my husband, cause I’m calling in a divine love right now.

I’m calling in the most incredible love right now. Oh, nice. Yeah. You’re listening right now. Call me.

Gissele overdub: I was going to ask about relationships. So this is a great segue. Go ahead.

Jill: Yeah. And like I said earlier about seeing everything in white, like. He would be wearing like white linen and we’d have like a white car, like everything was always in white.

And so I, I’ll even through all the shame and all the self loathing and all the things I [00:41:00] still have those, visions and thoughts about what. I knew I’d get to have in life. Yeah. Yeah.

Gissele overdub: Wow. That’s incredible

Jill: hope. I hope it was, it was hopeful, you know, knowing that it, it was there for me. I just needed to take steps to get there, to do the healing, to, to get to the deserve level of that.

Mm

Gissele overdub: mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And I feel we all have that. I, I feel like we all have this kind of pot of gold available to each of us, but it’s just. Waiting there for us in order for us to allow it to come to tap into it to enable us because life’s not a zero sum game, right? Like your I do feel this strongly like Jill E.

Schultz gets to have her heaven and her biggest dreams. And that’s not taken away from anything because that’s your dream. This is what you set up for yourself and whereas each of us have our own separate different dreams that don’t take [00:42:00] away from someone else. But I’m We’re kind of bought into this.

Yeah. We’ve kind of bought into this belief that life’s a zero sum game, which it totally disadvantages us and makes us feel smaller than I wanted to ask about relationships since, and you mentioned, you know, you’re calling in your husband, have you ever, cause this popped into my head. So I’m going to ask, have you ever done, like, have you ever written out?

Kind of like, like the person that you want to call in. I have found

Jill: I’ve been writing that

Gissele overdub: out. Okay. I love it. I found that when I did that, and I actually kind of encouraged a few friends of mine who have done it and then attracted the person. because I recently heard that.

You know, when you have a thought or a knowing in your heart, it’s still a thought, but when you speak it out and write it out, it is [00:43:00] then manifested because it’s now out there. And so I make sure that I don’t speak or do anything that contradicts what I want to, what, who I want to be. And so I was curious if you had written out, you said you had been written this list for many years.

Jill: Yeah, I wrote my list a long, long, long time ago and it keeps getting longer and longer and then I tried to hone it down to like six things and it’s like, it’s just this massive, beautiful man that gets to show up for me. But, what was I going to say about that? Oh, the thing is, the hard thing is. You know, whenever you manifest something, it’s already 99 percent complete.

Like it’s already out there. Unfortunately, it’s in God’s time. And that’s the hardest thing, because I know that this person who gets to come into my life now has been waiting for me for 41 years. We’ve been waiting for each other for 41 years. But if I had gotten married at 33 [00:44:00] years old, I’d be divorced.

You know, and now that I have this calling on my heart to step into something that most people probably would choose not to step into, because this is a hard conversation, the type of man that is going to be my partner now is going to be a different person than I would have called in at 33 years old. I mean, that’s not to say he couldn’t have shown up for me then.

Yeah, yeah. It certainly

Gissele overdub: was not God’s plan. And this is so, so important because I have found that to be true in my life. Pretty amazing things that I wanted and there’s times when I was like, I didn’t even have to set the intention. It just came and I’m like, how did, how did they know I wanted that? And it’s so funny, but because time is not real.

It doesn’t really exist. Like we’re in a hurry. We think we’re going to run out of time, like the human things are going to run out of time that is not going to come, but I have found in my life, things come at the perfect time. So just enjoy the [00:45:00] ride, which I was not very good at. Not very good. I was always, I was always looking for.

Okay. Where’s my thing. Where’s my thing so I can be happy? Where’s my, where’s this or that or the other? And, and being patient in the way of like, not like, I’ll get to wait. It’s more like, okay, you know what? If this was already, if I had already experienced this, what would I do next? And then I do that and I enjoy like living in that from that space and I found that it’s definitely, there’s definitely reasons why I don’t understand why things can happen and I can only look at them in retrospect and go, Oh, yeah, like you said, like, if you had come when I was 33, it would have been like, right?

You might not have read it.

Jill: Yeah, it’s like the trip to Hana. Have you been to Maui? Have you heard about the trip to Hana?

Gissele overdub: I have not heard of that, but I have been to Hawaii. Yeah.

Jill: So the trip to Hana is on the island of

Gissele overdub: Maui and I haven’t been to hot to Maui. I’ve been to [00:46:00] the big island in Oahu. That’s yeah.

Sorry.

Jill: Go ahead. So the trip to Hana is this beautiful ride and there’s a book called Maui revealed that at least when I. Read it. The Islanders were not happy about because it gave you a little like I road mile marker, 72, get out of the car, walk a hundred yards to your right. And there’s a waterfall there.

So, like, the trip to Hana is all about these beautiful, beautiful exploration and getting to Hana. And to get to Hana, it tastes like eight hours because you’re stopping and looking at all these beautiful, beautiful things. And then it takes like an hour and a half to get back. So it’s the trip to the destination that counts.

And so we have to learn to be patient. We have to learn to be appreciative and gratitude of everything that you’re in right now along the way. And not be focused on what’s at the end.

Gissele overdub: [00:47:00] Agreed. Agreed. So I want to go back to, you know, since we’re enjoying the ride, I want to go back to talking about some of the work that you’re doing right now.

Can you share a little bit about the work that you’re doing right now, and especially the book? Can you tell us a little bit about the book? Yes, I’m

Jill: going to get the book. Sorry, I shouldn’t have had it out. That’s okay. Here’s the book. It’s called liberated, releasing the dark cloud of shame and the, I, I didn’t want to write a book.

God wanted a book. I just want to get on stages and scream my story from the rooftop. And a friend of mine who was a speaker said, if you want to get on stage, you’ve got to write a book. And so this was one of those places where I just trusted and let God take control because once I knew I needed a book, yeah.

He brought the people to me. So this is a compilation of many stories. It’s not just me. It’s other people who have had my same experiences, people who have found forgiveness. There’s a lot of different, modalities. And [00:48:00] the ending is really about not being in victim and creating a beautiful life for yourself.

So I’m very proud of the book that came out on November 1st and we’ll have a link there if people want to get the book. And so now, honestly, I’m just back in that place of surrender and trust. I really feel that. Opportunities get to start coming to me. Like I’m doing a lot of podcasts. I’ve probably done 50 podcasts in six months to talk about my story and just share it.

But I’m looking to get on stages. I told you I have a really big meeting tomorrow. I’m not going to, I don’t want to blow what that is, but like. It’s kind of like, you don’t know what you don’t know. Like, I feel like some beautiful, beautiful things get to be created around this. And I’m looking to partner.

I’m trying to find different support partnerships right now because I’m not a therapist and I [00:49:00] cannot. Be the one to coach people through some of the pain that comes around sexual trauma. So I’m partnering with people that I can say, okay, you need to see this person. You need so that people can get help.

People can get supported and people can heal. So those are the things that I’m working on right now is just really. This is all like such baby. I’m, I’m like the brand new baby who’s just here. And now I’m like, okay, what do I do? Do I walk? Do I talk? Like, I’m really just letting God present opportunities.

And I’m trusting that everything that we’re creating now is It’s perfectly the way

Gissele overdub: it’s supposed to happen. I love this. Does it not feel at times where you’re like, I don’t know what the next step is and it’s so counter what we’ve been taught, right? Like there’s, there’s been times when my guidance is like, You know, meditate all day today.

I’m like, what? I’m like, shouldn’t I be doing something towards my business? What do you mean meditate all day? But then when I do, [00:50:00] I realized that I cleared out a whole bunch of stuff and new opportunities came. So I’m like, Oh, okay. So that’s how kind of this works. But I still had to get through and to reveal to myself just how stuck I have been in that, in, in, or I had been in the perspective of.

There’s a right way in a wrong way to do this and stepping in trust and stepping into the unknown just seems so unnatural. Does it not? Does it not seem like everything that we’ve been taught very hard

Jill: at first, very hard at first, but as I continue to surrender and trust and I saw how God was doing the work.

I was just like, all right, you got this. So every day my my morning ritual is I listen to, before I even get up, I listen, start listening to manifesting. Like I’ve been listening a lot to Esther Hicks, you know, the, the, the ramp that the rampages that [00:51:00] Esther does, you know, around all that, listening to that.

And I’ll listen to something else on manifesting just as I’m getting my morning started. And then I get really quiet. And I say, okay, God, what do we get to do today? What is the one thing you want me to do today to move this forward? And I just get very quiet and I am following my intuition a lot. I like, I’ve really gotten tuned into my intuition and so I’m just listening and then I’m doing what those, those things are like yesterday.

I have my books and I have, you know, 15 contributors that wrote a chapter in my book. And I’m yesterday. My tour was to sign the books for them and mail them out. So, you know, something simple. Today, I’m going to start a 501c3 for all of this around sexual trauma. So my task today was to reach out to the company that’s going to help me with my 501c3.

And of course, there’s lots of other stuff. I have three businesses. So there’s lots of other stuff that I get to do, but [00:52:00] I just get to say, what do I get to do today to move this forward? And then I just. Do those things because I have no idea it’s, it’s very unnerving sometimes. I’m like, I feel like I’m the blind right now.

Gissele overdub: Yeah, I hear you. It’s so funny because I also see that it’s probably the timing. I just feel like a lot of people in my life are sort of in the same spot too. They’re, they’re starting new initiatives, starting new. Components of their life. So, especially since COVID and it’s about developing that trust in yourself and in source God universe.

But yeah, it can feel overwhelming and takes a lot of courage, at least take the first few steps which is great. So just a couple more questions. I’m asking everyone who is coming on my show to define unconditional love for me from your perspective. Unconditional

Jill: love. Oh,[00:53:00]

no expectations. Like you, you just don’t have any expectations of just putting whatever you have in your heart out there, not expecting to receive anything in return and having no expectations around that.

Gissele overdub: That’s a beautiful answer. Because it’s true. It’s, it’s, it’s like open hearted giving, and I think that’s one of the things that makes love conditional is that there are expectations.

I expect you to love me. I expect you to behave this way. I expect you to expect, expect. Right. And so I think that’s kind of one of the best definitions I’ve heard thus far.

Jill: I was struggling. I was like, Oh, God, what

Gissele overdub: do I know? It’s great. It was really, really good. So last question, where can people find you?

Where’s your website? How can people come work with you? Where can people find the book? Yeah, let us know.

Jill: Thank you. You can see my name on here. It’s just Jill e Schultz. com. My [00:54:00] Book is there. There’s a link for by the book. My resources section is there. So if you are at all triggered today by anything that’s happened on this during our conversation, please reach out to somebody.

I do also have a Facebook group called Living Unshamed. Not unashamed, un shamed. And I love that because I found that for my healing, it was way, my healing happened way more quickly when I was in a group setting because you’re with people who are like you and you get the validation that other people have gone through what you’ve gone through.

But jilleschultz. com and then all my social media links are on there and all that stuff too. And I’m sure you have some of that stuff in the chat.

Gissele overdub: Yes, I do. Wonderful. Okay. Thank you so much, Jill, for being with us and for sharing your story as well as shedding light on something that isn’t well talked about, but needs to be discussed.

So deeply grateful that you were able to come on the show [00:55:00] and thank you everyone. And we’ll see you in another episode of the love and compassion podcast, which is L. Bye. Bye.

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Transcript[00:00:00]

Gissele: hello and welcome to the love and compassion podcast with Giselle. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world. Don’t forget to subscribe for more amazing content on today’s podcast.

We’ll be talking about self love and self compassion while parenting. My guest today is Mariah Kimball. Mariah will help you connect your mind, body, and soul to the love that fuels your earthly experience and allows you to reach your fullest potential and truest expression of love, which to her, they’re all the same.

Mariah’s a well of experience, including a master’s in the art of teaching. Certifications in nutritional therapy and other healing modalities such as Reiki and restorative yoga, her intuitive connection to divine liquid love and her interpretation of ancient wisdom through the Earth’s crystal memories make her work incredibly potent.

Please [00:01:00] join me in welcoming to the show Mariah. Hi, Mariah.

Mariah: Oh, my goodness. Hello. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited and honored to be here with you today.

Gissele: Thank you. Thank you so much for being on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you actually got to start doing this work?

Mariah: Yeah, so, I’m Mariah. I am been married to my husband for 11 years. We have a magnificent relationship that we’re always looking to deepen and open, to more love. We have two beautiful little girls Claire, who is eight and Juliet, who is six, and they are incredibly little sensitive souls who love so deeply and passionately and I myself love to do wild things like CrossFit and Jiu Jitsu, and I found myself in this work because I ignored.[00:02:00]

So much of what made me, me, and it really broke me and I realized that I can be a parent and Mariah all at the same time and be true to myself and enjoy those things that make me different. But it took showing myself a lot of compassion and love and vulnerability both with myself and with my husband to kind of get to this place where.

Life is really magical and full of a lot of love.

Gissele: Thank you so much. That was Beautiful.

I was wondering if you could share a little bit about your experiences and your challenges with parenting and how that helped you be where you are right now.

Mariah: I would love to. I became a parent eight years ago and I, with my first kiddo, it was so easy. Damn it. It was so easy. She would just breathe and I’d be like, Oh, she needs food or like, I just [00:03:00] knew like there was this connection to Claire that really I can’t even explain it. I was like, I’m a good mom.

I give myself a pat on the back. This is so easy, right? Oh boy. That, that was short lived. That was really short lived. Because while Claire was open and I could read her energy and her needs really well, Juliet came along 21 months later and. Oh my gosh. I could not figure this kiddo out. She was such a magnificent little soul.

I could not make her happy. I could not connect to her. Breastfeeding was hard. I was exhausted. I was in a job I hated that I thought. I would be in for 30 years, right? I was teaching seventh grade and I was just strung out like I was doing all the right things, right? I, I was, I had the perfect job. I had the husband, we had the house, we had all the [00:04:00] things and I had two kids like, oh my gosh, so perfect.

I had two little girls and I was doing all the things and I was so unhappy and the harder I tried, the harder it It got, and I got to the point where I was so lost and in such a dark place that I was crying every day at work. I was, I was just drained. Things that used to light me up weren’t. And I, I fell apart and I think I didn’t realize at the time looking at it now I realized like, like, you can’t parent children the same way.

And I was trying to, but I couldn’t see that because my well was so empty. Like, I, there was no part of Mariah left I was stripped bare, and I’ll never forget. It was this everything peaks at once, right? Like, everything comes to, like, it peaks, but it’s really like this way, right? Because you’re, you’re in this hole, essentially, like, bottom of the barrel.

And, you know, it was totally a dark night of the [00:05:00] soul for me. My, I am significantly older, not significantly older, but I’m a little bit older than my siblings. And so at this time period, I was married and had children quite young. And so that put my, my sister still at home at this point. And so my mom was going away on vacation and she asked that I stay with my sisters.

Just to be a support to make sure the house didn’t implode. She’s like, bring the girls. It’ll be fine. I’ll get you all the food and all the things. Sure. Great mom. I can do that. I thought it would be a little vacation. Well, no, I fell apart and I don’t have a close relationship with my sister, but I will never forget the moment where.

I just couldn’t do it anymore. I was anxious. I was shaking in my body and I was like near tears and my sister is really intuitive and she looked at me and she’s never taken my girls. She had never helped me before. We’re not close and she’s like, I’m going to take the girls. And you’re, you’re going to go shower, you’re going to [00:06:00] take a minute and I will tell you, I sat in the bottom of that shower and I just cried and cried and cried.

And that was the lowest moment I had ever had in my life. I couldn’t make my kids happy I needed my sisters to do this. I lost my connection with my husband I was like repulsed by him. And I felt broken. And so that night, my husband and I sat down. It was dark. I’ll never forget it. We’re in this living room.

It’s not our house. I’m just like, I can’t breathe. I don’t know what I’m doing. I need help. It’s like, okay. Like, okay. And I, I had to get super vulnerable and say, this isn’t working. I had to be really vulnerable with myself and with him. And it was probably the hardest thing I’d ever done in my life.

Probably still to this day is one of the hardest things I’ve ever done in my life was admit defeat. And then I needed help that I needed, some outside [00:07:00] support. To change that, you know, I look back on it now and I definitely had postpartum depression undiagnosed and what led me to that? I wasn’t listening.

I wasn’t feeling my will. I had no support, right? Yes. My parents were around and they take the girls, but it, it wasn’t enough. You know, it wasn’t, I was a new mom. I was young. I was working full time. I had a house, like all the things. Yeah. And no friends that understood that experience, right? I was incredibly lonely.

Oh my gosh. And just like thinking about that Mariah six years ago, you know, it was actually probably five years ago because Juliet, was probably like two months old at this point. I think that it gets a little wonky, you know, but like the Mariah was 5 years ago. The best thing I could have ever done was ask for support because now I’m like on the other side and I’m like, oh, my God, this is amazing.

So every time I [00:08:00] hit that low, I’m like, well, the other side is going to be amazing. This is terrible in this moment, but I’m going to do the work. We’re going to, you know, white knuckle it all weekend through these hard, difficult moments because parenting shifts like that parent. I was 5 years ago. I am a different parent today because my children have changed.

And so there’s this need to always be compassionate with myself. Like, yeah, I messed up, but I can apologize. We had this moment the other day, and we just got back from a trip from Disneyland. And I will tell you, it was fantastic. Like, the girls were fantastic. Like, And I have, pretty typical children, right?

They’re extremely sensitive, but they’re healthy. They’re, they’re very typical. And there was this moment where my daughter’s like crying and like, she’s almost crying. And she’s like, she’s just not acting the way I wanted her to act where it had freaking Disneyland. And she’s given me a hard time.

Right. And I literally said to her, I said, I just don’t expect an eight year old to cry when they’re at Disneyland like this. Like I’m just disappointed. [00:09:00] And I said it and I was like, Ooh, like it hurt. And like, it immediately like shut her down, the tears were gone, you know, and later that day we were walking down the road while holding hands, walking, you know, so much walking in Disney.

My gosh. And I, I said, I had this, and my mom was there, so it was an incredibly vulnerable moment. Because grandma was there and I was holding Claire’s hand and I had this feeling inside that I needed to apologize. I just needed to own it. That’s not the kind of mom I want to be. I don’t want to squash her.

Obviously there was, this moment of tension. She wasn’t getting what she needed. I wasn’t being clear, right? And I said, hey Clary, remember earlier when I said I don’t expect an 8 year old to cry? She’s like, yeah. Like, I’m really sorry for that. That didn’t feel good in my body. I’m sure it didn’t feel good to receive that.

I’m so sorry. I’ll try and do better next time. I said, I hope you’ll forgive me. [00:10:00] And she, she kind of looked at me and my mom is standing behind me kind of walking a little off behind me. And she kind of looks at me, like gives me a little side eye. And she’s like, I’ll forgive you this time with a big smile on her face, you know, and that was it.

We moved on. And I, and that gave her this moment of like, Hey, mom’s human. And that reminded me like, Hey, She’s got a little sense of humor. She’s human. She’s growing. She sees me. I see her. It was a perfect, imperfect moment, but had I not been compassionate with myself and like looked at that forgiveness and been vulnerable, man, that could have been a moment of like lowercase T trauma for Claire, you know, where those little moments where we don’t listen and we shut things down and we react instead of respond, like that adds up over time.

Wow. Thank

Gissele: you for sharing that. you shared so many powerful things. [00:11:00] I just want to start with what the story you just shared. Because I think part of the issue is that sometimes we’re not honest with ourselves about what we feel. And so I’ve been at Disney. I’ve been in your situation.

sometimes You’re frustrated because you’re thinking I paid all this money. I’m tired. Cause it’s not always a vacation for the parents. Yeah. And so there’s like walking, there’s paying, there’s doing a coordinating, but you want it to be magical.

And sometimes the kids pick up where we’re at. I thinkThe whole story was really beautiful. Number one, you admitting and acknowledging that you were frustrated and that you were Yeah. You’re like, you know what? I’m really frustrated. This was my expectation. And when people, when we have expectations, people don’t often meet them.

And I think that causes us suffering and the fact that you were able to reflect and go back and. Be able to reconnect with your kids because there’s so many moments where we connect and then [00:12:00] disconnect and connect and disconnect and connect and disconnect. And when we don’t connect back, I think that’s what causes the greater distance and the trauma and so on.

And so it’s so beautiful that you were able to say, look at I’m not always going to get it right, but I’m trying my best in the relationship is more important than being right. So I think that’s, that is fantastic. What was your mom’s reaction? I just have to ask that question. What was your mother’s reaction?

Mariah: It’s not a peep out of her. I think she, I, I have no idea. And I wish I could, I wish I knew, but I didn’t even dare look at my mom, you know, my mom is a fantastic mom. But we choose our I totally believe that we choose our parents because they have the greatest lessons to teach us. So no matter how magical of a parent I am, or my mom is like, we’re always going to come to a childhood with some stuff with some baggage.

Right? And so I parent very differently than my mom [00:13:00] does. And so I don’t know if my mom has ever apologize in that way to me and there’s, there’s nothing wrong with that. She just has a very different relationship with me than I do with my girls. And that’s that’s totally fine. And that’s magical in itself because she gets to see me parent the girls, but I also get to see her be a grandmother and like have this.

Different relationship and, and, you know, it’s not a do over, but it’s this magical opportunity to be softer to be a little gentler. And I see her doing that and it’s really cool. It’s really magical to see. And she honors me as a mom, which is really nice. And she has, never questions me or my parenting.

And so that feels really good, but I think her what, what I [00:14:00] think is really cool is her not saying anything is her saying a lot in a really beautiful way. And I can fully respect

Gissele: that. And she might have had, and I don’t really know this. Different feelings about it. Right. So my parents grew up in that old school mentality when you didn’t question your parents.

And, you know, I, and I love my parents. My parents are great parents. They’re doing the best I can. I’m doing the best I can with my daughter. And recently had a conversation where I said, you know what? Majority of the time, I don’t know what I’m doing. Kids aren’t born with a manual. So we’re just winging it out here.

And so we are all doing the best we can.really it’s true in, in that forgiveness is so important going back to my parents situation, they grew up in that kind of household where you were like, the parents always write that you don’t questionAnd I know my parents have had problems or issues with their parents and not being able to say, and so that seeing the difference in the generations between their parents [00:15:00] and us growing up and being able to have these conversations, I think it’s very healing. I think it’s very, very healing you

Mariah: so healing and just have awareness, you know, that around this.

And I think in a healing we do, you know, in this generation, it affects both ends of the spectrum and the children to come and the parents who came before us. I think it totally heals the lineage in this really beautiful way. It’s soft. It’s, it’s compassionate, you know, it’s like every little thing we do has massive impact.

If allow it to, you know,

Gissele: and I totally agree with what you’re saying. I do believe that any healing that we do not only impacts our past, but our future and our present as well. I do want to go back to what you had shared before in terms of the struggles you were having in parenting your child. Because so often as parents, we You know, one of the reasons [00:16:00] why you might’ve patted yourself on the back is because you felt it was easy and you were doing it well.

And then when you weren’t doing it well, or you, or you perceived you weren’t doing it well or didn’t know what was happening. We tend to really judge ourselves. we get so hard on ourselves because we think we have to be perfect and we think we have to be the perfect mother and we have to be always so loving and all of these things.

Why do you think that is? Why do you think that we have kind of this programming to compare ourselves? To have to need to be perfect. I

Mariah: know. And that, that comparison harm is so real. Especially when we see other moms who are killing it. Doing it so good. And it looks so easy. And who’s

Gissele: killing it? I just want to know, like, who’s killing it?

Maybe I need to take some notes. You

Mariah: know, the mom whose kid’s hair is always brushed and looking good. Like, I need that mom’s magic. Please. That’s fantastic. Oh my gosh. That’s fantastic. Yeah. And you know, it’s like this. [00:17:00] We are so hard on ourselves and it’s so funny, the story that’s coming up to tell you to relate to this is my oldest daughter, bless her soul.

She cut my youngest daughter’s hair. And so like this first, like this chunk right at the top of her forehead and she cut it like to the scalp. So this was earlier in the summer. So we’re talking a couple, we’ve got a couple months of growth of like this crazy, like. Bang situation going on and we’ll get it fixed.

Now that it’s like an appropriate length, she’s going to get bangs and we’ll fix it, whatever. But like, I look at it every time and I’m just like, Oh man, like it feels like failure. You know what I mean? It’s like simple thing. Like why, especially like, it just, it hurts. Right. I also look at, I’ve started to look at it and be like, this is her season.

This is the season of Juliet where she’s got the messy hair. I grew up in a house that like your hair had to be brushed. It had to be out of your face, like, and hair is a big thing for me. Cause my middle [00:18:00] sister, you know, she never took care of her hair and I always told her, I said, if you don’t take care of that hair, I’m going to cut it one day.

I’m going to cut it one day. Well, sure enough, one day I cut her hair. She would never go to the hairdressers. And so we would trim her hair at home. I just cut it all off on her. And so I, you know, we bring these stories from childhood to, to our parenting. And so for me to be a perfect parent includes like the nice hair and it never happens.

And I always like. Send my kids to school a little defeated, like, and that’s judgy. I’m judging myself. Like, you can’t even get your kid’s hair done.

Gissele: Yeah. You know what? It’s so funny. So thank you for sharing the story. Cause it really triggered some stories for me. I was the kid with the messy hair and the sock down.

And I was always like, you know, like running around and getting dirty and didn’t care. And my mother would like, that was an important thing for her. Right. And so [00:19:00] the hair seemed to be an issue. And then when I had my daughter, my daughter’s hair would tangle really quickly. And so there would be times when I would be like, I don’t know how to do, cause my hair is curly.

So I eventually learned to deal with curly hair, but not straight thin hair. And so it would not in these bunches and I would crowd in Coleman and she would be crying because it hurts so much. And I’m like, I’m trying different things. And I felt like a terrible parent if she went to school with a big knot.

And it’s so funny. These are small moments. These are small moments that have such an impact. And to reflect back in one of the things that I actually did do was like, okay, I have to stop having this relationship with this kid’s hair in the same manner. So I researched, I started looking at the detanglers, the detanglers work.

Now we just, we layer it in different layers and found it doesn’t tangle. We’d comb it at night, like we, I wanted to change my relationship with what was happening because what I was doing is I was getting really, really frustrated [00:20:00] with not being able to get the knots out. And sometimes I would pull her hair and that’s what she would remember.

That’s how our interactions were. And so instead of being those nice moments of combing nice hair and making it nice, it was like, okay,

Mariah: let’s And then she feels shame and blame because she doesn’t have perfect hair that’s easy to brush, like, and so she has this, you know, relationship with her hair that’s tension filled, you know, I don’t know, she couldn’t possibly right and that’s what.

Yeah, she’s like, they’re totally fine. But like, oh, like, that just doesn’t feel good. You know, like, it’s just hair. Like, it’s part of her. It makes her beautiful. No matter what it looks like. Like, I’m not failing as a parent because my kid didn’t wash her hair. Like, it is what, like, we’re working on it.

We’re, we’re, we’re all human. We’re practicing, we’re learning, you know, and it’s, and it’s, I think having compassion too, because like, I, as I pay attention and [00:21:00] I have compassion for myself as a parent and I stopped judging myself, I get to know my kids better and then I can respond better. Okay. Juliet. No, I know.

If I say Juliet, you have to take a bath. She doesn’t associate washing her hair with a bath. I have to say, Juliet, we’re going to take a bath and wash your hair tonight. Like, I really clear. I know that because she’s so literal. If I don’t spell it out, she’s going to get furious with me and then I’m going to get frustrated.

And then, you know, we blow up over something ridiculous. But as I have compassion for myself and I reflect and I get to know my daughter more and I’m willing to see her truly see her as the little person she is, then I, then it makes parenting easier because I know, I know how to Handle her, you know, I can put the right kind of gloves on to handle my kiddo.

And then Claire, she needs a different set of gloves. She needs a different set [00:22:00] of eyes and a different language, you know, to take care of her and her and her anxiety, you know? So with one, I’ve got like anxiety and the other, I’ve got quick to anger, you know, both fine, but both require different things.

Gissele: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And the compassion is so important, right? Because I think what you said was spot on. I realized that I would get frustrated with my children, especially around cleaning and all of those smaller things. When I had nothing left to give, like when I was already spent and full and I thought, Oh my God, now I’m going to have to clean, but they’re like, they’re not doing their chore.

No, making myself a victim. I realized that I would just snap at them. And I’m like, okay, so now when I realize I’m getting kind of snippy, I’m like, you know what? No. This is not who I want to be. I need to take time out to regroup and I even had to have a conversation with myself and say, you know [00:23:00] what the chores, do you really want to make this something that everybody dreads doing, including you, or do you want to actually just enjoy yourself even if they don’t want to do it?

If. If they need to be done this week, then I will do them and I’ll do it with joy because that’s what I choose. And if not, I just wait and say, okay, your chores. And I keep reminding them. But I had found since I released the tension and the need for it to be perfect and the need for it to happen all the time, I find that they’re more likely, especially my daughter to do it spontaneously.

Mariah: Yeah, and when you do ask, and it comes from a place of love, and not that tension, they’re much more likely to respond with love instead of tension, you know, and like, I’ve begun you know, going back to that part where you said, like, when I’m empty and I’m spent, everything’s bigger and harder.

You know, I’ve begun pointing out to my girls how I’m different from them, how my [00:24:00] energy and me as a person, I need different things than they need. You know, sometimes I am spent and I literally just need a day on the couch. Like. It’s just who I am. And I’ve come to accept that like every once in a while, more often than I care for.

I just need a day of nothing. And my girls aren’t like that at all. And it frustrates them to no end until I explained it to them. And I said, Hey, like, Mom, just, this is how I am like, if I’m going to function and have fun, I just need a day of nothing. And so, you know, a couple of weeks ago, I explained that to them and I sat in bed all day.

I’m not going to lie. I sat in bed all along and it was magical. You know why? Because I told them I was honest with them. I’m like, I’m not being lazy. I just need a recharge day. I’m spent. We had such a busy week. We’ve got big travel coming up. And I’m holding space. I’m packing. I just needed it. And they came in.

They’d bring little things to me. Hey, mom, will you play a [00:25:00] game like racco with me? I’ll bring the games. Absolutely. Let’s do it. Mom, will you read a chapter of my book to me? Yeah, absolutely. Let’s do it. And so they’d come in and these little pieces acknowledging that mom’s not going to get out of bed or do any wild, crazy things today, but she’s still here.

This is what she needs. How can I Support not like they don’t know they’re supporting me, but they’re like, okay, I see mom needs this, but I also need something. How can we kind of merge the two? And there’s still little, so they’re not articulating that, but it was really beautiful. And I was like, I can be the mom they need and be the human.

I need to, you know, it’s just beautiful melding, but had I had guilt or shame and no compassion around what I needed. They would have thrown a fit, get out of bed, get to do something. We never do anything. We did a lot this week. Let’s look at all the things we did that exhausted mom. And she just needs a little recharge today.

Yeah. I [00:26:00] see you, mom. All right, cool. So compassion goes so far in parenting.

Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing this. Cause I think this is really important. Number one is you determine what you needed in the moment and what you needed in the moment was to spend time by yourself doing whatever you felt was appropriate.

And so many of us judge ourselves for spending time. On the bed, on the couch, just not doing anything. There’s so many expectations, but rest is just as important as action. It’s just as important. And we don’t acknowledge that enough. Like, look at the culture we have burnout, the grind, the doing things like push through, push through, push through is the worst thing you could do, because that’s what leads to burnout.

And so I want to applaud you for actually saying, I need this and this is okay. And that’s what you’re demonstrating to your girls. It’s okay for me to put my own oxygen mask on first, [00:27:00] I’m still going to be here for you, but I don’t have to not choose myself to do that. Yeah. And I think that is super, super powerful.

Mariah: You articulated that so well. And being on the other side is someone who has chosen to put my oxygen mask on first and experience the positive effects of that. Like, I know that makes me a better person. I know it makes me more of myself and a better wife and a better mom and better like to show up with my clients.

Right? Like, It’s worth it. It is so worth it to just take that moment and assess what do I need? You know, even if it seems selfish, it never is. Right. Or what’s culturally appropriate. Like it’s not appropriate to spend a Saturday in bed. No, you know,

Gissele: determine that who, who decided that wasn’t you name names.

Obviously they were not,

Mariah: they were, they were not me because [00:28:00] like that. is so healing to me and fills my cup that I can do, you know, the, all the things the following week. And it’s so simple. And like, I’m can have those moments with my daughter, right. Where I can apologize. And I can say, Hey, that Wasn’t cool because I can see and I can reflect because I’m full.

My cup is full and they’re just not as big and the triggers are much smaller. And I can, I can see the triggers for what they are as triggers and I can respond to them and then go back to them at a later date and be like that. Why is that? But why is that, you know, turning me inside out backwards because there’s, there’s information there to be had.

What can I learn more about myself so that I can adjust, I can have compassion so that I can again, get to know myself better so that I can take care of myself and myself better.

Gissele: Absolutely. Completely agreed. I did [00:29:00] want to go back to something you had said around your kids. If, if, you know, if you hadn’t been compassionate to yourself, they would have had a different reaction.

I do believe that kids are a mirror of us. And everything that is happening. And so I do agree that if you are not feeling overly compassionate, for some reason, like they will pick it up and they will reflect back to you what you’re really feeling. And I think that’s why sometimes we as parents have such a, may have a challenging relationship with our kids, especially if they mirror back to something we don’t want to see or admit.

How do you manage those moments? Like where they, but they’re now compared to obviously what you used to when your kids reflect something and you’re like, ah, man, come on.

This one

Mariah: hits like, oh, close to home because I’m working on something right now that the girls mirror back to me. And I just recently realized that they mirror back to me. And I had this [00:30:00] moment of like, oh, Oh my God, they do that because I do it. So the girls do this thing where if they meet any resistance, where if I pause at all to give them an answer, you know, or whatever they go, forget it, I don’t, I don’t need help.

I don’t forget it. They get really frustrated. Like this big explosive reaction and I literally go, I just, I just need a moment to figure this out. Like I’m, I’m on your team, like let’s make it happen. Right. They don’t, they don’t see it that way. Right. And then there was this moment where I was in this situation with the girls where I had asked them to do something and they didn’t respond in the way I had hoped.

And I said, forget it. I’ll just do it myself. And I literally was like, Oh, Oh, Oh my. It like took my breath away and I was like, I was shocked and so I’m still [00:31:00] working on it, right? Because this is something I just realized. And so, you know, it’s really cool because I go, yes, I get to figure this out and fix it or change it or, you know, shift my reaction so that this doesn’t have to be this way.

But it’s also like a, Oh, this is my fault. Yeah. Not that it’s my fault, but it’s also like, yeah. Okay, great. This is really exciting because we can shift this, reaction that we both that we all have. This is like a household thing that we, that we’re working on here, guys. Like, okay. So, you know, now it’s going to be like paying attention to my response is going to, you know, I still haven’t had the conversation with my husband because I haven’t.

I don’t know if he does it yet. So, so it’s gonna require me to be like, Hey, Kev, I do this or you know what I mean? So I just, I’m gathering, I’m in the gathering phase of like, okay, what information do I need to have around the situation? Cause it’s wildly frustrating when the girls don’t give me a [00:32:00] moment to breathe, to give them a solution or to help them or support them and end up ripping things up or throwing things.

You know, they’ve got so much emotion and they don’t know where to put it, that it just like explodes. Right. So, I’m in the gathering phase where I’m going to gather the information and I’m going to look at it and then I’m going to change my behavior. I’m going to change my response, you know, but that might take a little bit of the day.

Why do I do this? You know, where does this stem from? Do I need more support? I don’t have the answer. I don’t have the answers. I don’t have a guidebook. I got nothing.

Gissele: Yeah. And that’s exactly how we feel as well. Like, and that was the conversation I had recently with my daughter, right? Like kids aren’t born with a guide.

We don’t know what we’re doing. We’re winging it over here. We’re like, okay. And some days we feel we got it. And other days we’re like, Oh man, I did not go well. My husband and I would look at each other and go, Oh man. Because sometimes kids come with challenges. That you might not have experienced right or you may have no and you’re [00:33:00] like, I don’t know what I’m going to do with this like, and so in in parenting in today’s world seems really different than.

Then before, right, if there seemed to be more community, there seemed to be more, regardless of how we felt about that community and you know, like the aunties and uncles and all of those things. It just feels like we’re much more isolated and alone nowadays in today’s society that we don’t have that kind of connection anymore of like.

You know, like the grandparents and aunts and uncles and coming that huge like circle of love of people coming together where you could just like, okay, I need a moment. Here you go. Right. And so it just feels a lot more more difficult, I would say. And

Mariah: it takes more energy to get those alone moments because we don’t have that community.

So it’s harder. There’s like another layer of muck. We got to wade through because it requires a babysitter X, Y, and Z and a phone call and half hour drive or, [00:34:00] you know, some people might even be a plane ride. So I applaud moms and dads who take that challenge because it is a challenge to get what you need, like, and it requires bravery and vulnerability to be like, I need help or I need something that I don’t have.

And to really look at yourself and be like, what do I need? You know, this gathering phase, where I’m looking at all the things, it’s uncomfortable, like this shifting and parenting with compassion. It’s uncomfortable because you have to look at what’s not working and what you’re doing that, you know, detrimental to your relationships.

And man, it, it hurts to not be right all the time. It hurts to, you know, not be perfect, you know, until you acknowledge, until you reach a stage where you’re like, Okay, with that and you lean into that and you love that and you revel in that and you’re like, [00:35:00] but that takes a while to get there through that.

You know, I’m essentially 6 years into this journey of. Transformation because that’s what it is, you know, as I transform and I look at myself like I am a new person 100 million times over compared to that little girl who gave birth eight years ago. Like, I, there is nothing other than the fact that I was practically a little girl compared to the woman I am today.

And it takes so much, Love, compassion, and bravery to make those shifts in that transition. But I can tell you it is so worth it. It is so worth it to seek help and support. And I think, yeah, we don’t have a parenting guide and our kids don’t have a, have a book that they’re like, Hey, this is all the secret sauce you’re going to need for your kid.

Yeah. But there are women out there who are in their wise woman stage and they have great [00:36:00] advice and they’ve been there and they’ve done that and they’re willing to be guides, you know, and to tap into that wisdom. To find those nuggets. You know, recently I heard someone say, it’s like following the breadcrumbs, right?

Like you follow these resources and you take what feels really good and you leave the rest. You may love some of the stuff that I say. And you, you may hear me say something. You’re like, Oh, she’s a, she’s a quack. I don’t know. That’s fine. Take what feels really good and run with it. You know, if I say a word that you’re like, oh, I need more information, but research it, follow the rabbit hole.

You’re going to find a wise woman at the end of that, who’s, who’s you’re going to connect with. I may not be your person and you may not be that person, but like there, there’s a person for you who can be your guide if you’re willing to listen. And I swear, and that person can change over time. You know, I’ve had like probably two really transformational

[00:37:00] women in my, like in the last six years that like, whoa. You’ve, you’ve, you’ve done it. You’ve been there. I need, I, I’m going to listen, you know and I, I’ve, I’ve actually outgrown both of them and here I am, and I’m kind of standing on my own and I’m like, Oh, this is pretty amazing. Right. And there’s still more to learn and I know that and I’m, you know, hungry for the next lesson, because I know how magnificent life is.

When you like do the work and you’re willing to look and be compassionate. And it’s so like, I, I see these posts online of these women who just like stuck and these, I’m reading a book right now and they call it like, I’m, you’re stuck with a frog, you’re frog farming. You know, you’ve got this man who, you know, once was Prince Charming, now he’s a frog.

And like, if you’re willing to look at yourself and to see what’s changed and what’s shifted, man. Little [00:38:00] tweaks can make such a big difference. But the spark of that is compassion and love. Like you’ve got to have a little spark to, you know, start you down that rabbit hole to find the wise woman to support you so that you can become that wise woman.

You know, sorry

Gissele: for the tangent. Oh, no, this is great. You know, one of the things I was thinking about is the fact that you’ve outgrown these women is a sign that they’re good teachers. Cause a good teacher builds other teachers, right? Like builds other masters. So I think that’s really pivotal. I think the other thing that you said that really struck me that I think it’s really important to point out is, how probably this work about becoming vulnerable, about really facing all those uncomfortable emotions doesn’t feel good in so often we’ve been taught to run away from those bad feelings, but our success.

It’s really through those emotions. And how as [00:39:00] difficult as they are in the beginning, I love the fact that you now enjoy them like a little bit. Just the fact that you’re like, okay, that was uncomfortable that my kids showed me that it’s me, you know, like Taylor Swift, it’s me. I’m the problem. It’s me. But at the same time, you’re like, okay, I get to deal with this now.

It doesn’t have to be our forever. And I think there is a shift. So that’s great. Hope for people to understand that it’s not always going to feel that same level of discomfort in the beginning. It sucks. But then as you go through, you do get to the point where you’re like, ah, okay, I get to deal with this now.

And now we get to have a different outcome. So I think that what you said was really, really powerful and important because often we’re taught. Move away from the negative feelings, move away from that uncomfortable, move away instead of leaning in, right? Yeah, and

Mariah: like protect. Protect, yeah. I [00:40:00] have a story that came to mind, would you mind if I shared it?

Yeah, of course, please do. And I want people to really know that these moments can be Tiny moments, but they tell us so much. I don’t I recently had one of these moments where I was laying on the couch and my mom’s, she likes to cook Sunday dinner, which is magnificent. Cause I don’t enjoy cooking.

So we’re laying on the couch and Claire came up to me, this was several months ago, and she’s just like snuggling with me on the couch at my mom’s and I’m, and I’ll tell you, Oh my gosh, did it make my skin crawl, you know, like, Oh, And I was like, I just wanted to shove her off. I just wanted to yell at her and be like, get off me.

Like you’re eight years old, seven years old. You don’t need to snuggle with me on the couch. Right. And I took a big breath in and I was like, you don’t need to shove your daughter off the couch. It’s okay. If you are uncomfortable in this moment, like this is information, like [00:41:00] tuck it away. You, this is bigger than you.

And I knew this was a moment I needed support with. And I have a woman I see every month who like a therapist. And I like talk through this, this stuff with her. So I pinned this moment and I said to her, I want to be able to snuggle with my daughter and not want to push her to the other side of the room.

This made me so uncomfortable. Like, Right. And I could have pushed her off me. I could have done all these things to protect myself and make myself more comfortable. Right. Cause she triggered me. And I could have lashed out, but I like, you know, get a little twitchy and you, okay, this is information. All this is, is information.

This is uncomfortable in this moment. And this is a fairly simple trigger to talk you through. Right. And so I pinned it and I. Go to Debra. Her name is Debra and Debra breaks me down and she holds space and I cry and go through all the things. And she asked me all the hard questions and I [00:42:00] really have to look at myself.

Right. And I, I will tell you, I’ve been seeing Debra for every month for three years, every month. And I am a, my life is fantastic. I will, I will, I brag that my life is really magnificent. And I still see her every month. Like. I want life to be better. It can be better. Right. And I say this to brag from a place of like reverence, like you deserve more.

You, you are deserved to be bigger than your triggers. And so I sat with the uncomfortableness. She helped the space for me. I really looked at why I was uncomfortable with this and my oldest daughter snuggling with me in public and all the things, right. And I looked at it and I will tell you, I love when she snuggles with me now, I got over that.

I acknowledged it. And I just spent a week and Disney with both of my girls [00:43:00] glued to me, hand holding lots of hugs. And I was totally okay with it. And I reveled in it. And I said, this is what my girls need. They’re sensitive. They’re touchy feely. They’re nothing like I was when I was a child. And it no longer triggers me had I not looked at that and done the work and and gone to my person.

Right? I really believe everybody needs a person that therapist, whether it’s traditional or non traditional to, like, talk these things out to whatever the, the modality is. Right? And. It was so magical. Cause I literally looked and I was like, I have the capacity to hold both my daughter’s hands all day for seven days.

And like, I don’t feel overwhelmed. I don’t feel itchy and gross in my own skin. This feels really good because it wasn’t about my girls. It was about me, you know,

Gissele: and this story, it’s so powerful. It just so powerful [00:44:00] It comes from a place of non judgment, which is the foundation of his compassion, right? So rather than you could have, you know, shoved your kid to make yourself more comfortable, you didn’t.

So, but rather than, but you could have also been judging yourself even while your child was there. Had you not chosen to just put a pin in it to observe later, I think it would have been actually being with her in that moment harder. But the fact that you chose, okay, I’m going to put in this, I’m going to look at it from a place of non judgment and able to lean into those discomfort, this uncomfortable conversations.

Because we all as human beings have varying different levels of discomfort about different things. Sometimes, you know, like. My parents are going through a caregiving situation where my mom is caregiving for my dad. Sometimes that’s really hard. Sometimes it’s hard for her to not to, to deal with those negative feelings [00:45:00] of having to care for someone and feel overwhelmed and feel burnt out, right?

You feel guilty because of your partner, but at the same time, you’re like, Oh, I just, I’m stuck with, you know, caregiving. And so caregiving can be really challenging and to be in those moments and be able to look at those experiences without judgment and to say, okay, what’s the gift in this moment? I may not be able to see it now.

Like you said, I’m going to go to my person and help me dig for gold or just look, look at that gift and then be able to then get to the other side so that now you are holding hands and really enjoying it. Not just forcing yourself because of the girls. Or not judging yourself because, but actually truly reveling in being able to hold hands with your beautiful children.

So I think that, and that takes so much courage. What role has courage played in your life?

Mariah: Lord courage. Huge. I feel like every, you know, there’s this conversation brewing with my husband that I need, I need to look at [00:46:00] something. I realized something, right. I’m always learning. That’s part of who I am deepening my relationships.

And I’m reading this book, this magnificent book. And I, and, you know, me, I’m kind of, I kind of, Open this book being like, I’m not going to get anything out of it, but it was recommended and I’m going to read it and it’ll be great to help my clients and have some more language. And dude, if you ever have those thoughts, like, darn it.

If there’s not something massive for you to learn in that book, or that experience. Right? And so there’s something I, I realize, and I, I need to approach him with this conversation that I need to have literally not today. I need to build a little courage. I need to like, look back on my belief bank. Right.

I need to look back on all those times that I was vulnerable and I was honest and the outcome was magnificent. I need to just. Remember those things and we may not always have that belief bank to lead on to lead on lean on, [00:47:00] but there’s always a moment. I, I truly believe if we look hard enough, we can find places of positive reinforcement that just reminds us, even if they were so small that this situation or this person, you know.

Will have a positive outcome that I can believe wholly that this situation will be resolved, that I will be seen, that I will be supported, you know, and I, that’s one of the first things I always recommend my clients do is like write your belief bank, where have things been so desperate and dark and they turned out okay.

Hey, you’re still alive. So I think they turned out. Okay. Right. You’re still here. So there’s at least something. And so right now I’m going to spend the next day and a half really leaning on my belief bank that he will see me and he will respond from a place of love. I’m not worried about him. [00:48:00] I know he’ll, he’s going to respond really beautifully, but it’s vulnerable for me.

Cause I need to admit that I’ve done something that’s not, That I can improve on that. It hasn’t been from a place of love. Not that I’ve done it purposefully, but it’s like this, this habit that society allows us to do and see as fine as like emasculating men in this way. And like, and I realized this and I realized that part of, you know, something we’re working on together for him is my fault.

And I play a big part in that. And so owning that’s scary as heck. So I’m going to spend the next day building up my courage, you know, building from that belief bank so that I can have this inner strength to kind of lay myself bare and say, I messed up. Let’s like, help me, you know, fix this so that we can have even a more magical, deeper, [00:49:00] loving relationship.

So I, you know, I. Been at this for 16 years and I’m still like, Ooh, there’s stuff, stuff to fix, you know, at 11 years in this marriage. And we were wildly in love and we’re in a magnificent place. And I’m still like, Ooh, I need a little courage to be vulnerable. And, that’s okay. Like I don’t, if it’s ever easy, I’m doing something wrong.

I think not that it needs to be hard, but if you’re not needing to be a little courageous and a little brave, like. Hmm. Are you doing the right thing? Like, I’m not going to lie. I was a little nervous for our conversation today because I knew, I knew you were going to ask great questions. I knew that I was going to have to be vulnerable.

And so I was like, you’re just going to take a deep breath. You know, she comes from a place of love and that this is going to help so many other parents, like, like let’s do it, like, let’s do it. And so it’s. It’s just like finding that strength, building it up and knowing that the other side [00:50:00] is magical.

If you’re willing.

Gissele: Yeah. Thank you. I just want to point out two really important things that I feel you said from my perspective are really resonated with me. Number one is the power of pause. So often we rush to have conversations or to address issues or to just react whereas pausing and really, like you said, tapping into your belief bank or putting a pin in it in the moment really does enable us to really reflect.

And then respond. The second thing that I thought was really, really powerful and important is, focusing our energy and attention on the outcome that we want, rather than what we are afraid of. And so often we focus on the things we’re afraid of, which Like contributes to us feeling even more vulnerable when really we can use that same energy and attention [00:51:00] and place it on the outcome that we want to experience.

And this kind of comes from, you know, you know, I know that you are a very spiritual person and I’m a long term student of Neville Goddard. And he talks about, you know, how your beliefs impact your reality and everything is perception really.

And, you know, you can have the outcome you desire if you put your energy and attention on that, instead of focusing like we always do in society of all the things we’re afraid of, all the things that are negative on all the things we want to fight. And so what I got out of your belief bank really was, okay, so can I then focus on the outcome that I desire, believe that it will happen Put my energy on that and then be open to whatever feelings come up because it’s the resistance that makes us suffer, right?

The resistance to feel the feelings we have and so thus enabling us to move forward. So I think you made some really important points about [00:52:00] courage. Are there Are there any areas in your life where you have found that letting go and releasing the resistance has really led to really being able to, live a more fulfilling life sort of the, the letting go allowed you to receive?

Mariah: Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. I guess I’m just going to be really vulnerable today and like, thank you. Yeah, so. I, yeah, so when we hold on so tightly to things that aren’t, especially that aren’t working right. We desperately want them to work. Oh, gosh, like, if I just do this 1 thing a little differently and I push a little harder, it will work.

And that’s not the case. [00:53:00] So, I’m in a massive place in my life right now in a transition of my career. And this is so magnificent, but let me tell you two, three months ago, I did not think it was magnificent at all. Right. I worked for a company. It was magnificent. I had amazing coworkers. And I, I grew so.

Much like this pushed my at this job, push my edges so far and like really transformed me quite magical. It took like my teaching skills and applied them to business to like really powerful women. Like, it was amazing. It was like my dream job. And I lost it in April, and there was so much fear around not having an income of not being worthy of my family because I wasn’t producing income, right?

That’s not true. I have a lot of worth in my family besides just the money I bring in, right? And so I [00:54:00] created some programs out of fear, out of pure desperation. At the time, I didn’t realize that. And To be quite honest, I don’t enjoy them. They were created out of fear, out of desperation, out of I’m not worthy to just be in my family.

My husband makes Enough money that we can, we can live comfortably. I don’t need to, I didn’t need to stress. Yeah. Maybe things a little tight. We just need to look at a little like, sure, of course, but not this desperate. I need to go make money right this second. Right. And it’s, it hasn’t been easy. It’s been an uphill battle.

June, July, August, September, October, it’s been five months and it’s been not enjoyable. It’s been incredibly draining. And it’s not working. Yes, my clients are getting something out of it in their joint. But it’s not working for me. And I’ve been holding on to this fact that I [00:55:00] need to have income in order to be valuable in my family.

And just in the last, like, three weeks, I’ve opened up to the idea that I can be valuable in my family and to my husband without an income. And to take a moment to step back and say, this isn’t working. It’s stressing me out. It’s putting tension in my relationship and relationship with the girls that it’s draining me.

So I’m, I’m quicker to that trigger, right? Just like I was at Disney, what I shared with you guys that I told my daughter is not appropriate for an eight year old to cry. Hell, if it’s not appropriate for an eight year old to cry, do you know how much I cry? Like, oh my, talk about being a hypocrite

Gissele: in that moment.

Mariah: Shoot, those tears, a lot of them, right? Yeah.

Gissele: And so prior

Mariah: here. Yeah. Yeah, totally a crier. And so I, you know, I am in this moment. I, I, this is the last [00:56:00] month closing it down. It’s gonna be, it’s like closing of ceremony is gonna be beautiful, and I’m truly leaning into just receiving for my husband. That is my goal.

Like, can I show up for myself? Can I show up for him? Can I show up for my girls in this really beautiful, feminine way? I want to lead my family. I want to be the feminine leader in my family. What does that look like? What does that feel like? Who am I, you know, what are all the ways in which I’m valuable?

You know, this is really scary. No, not something that I’ve ever leaned into. You know, I always thought I needed to produce income to be valuable in my family where that comes from. I’m not sure do I don’t need to know, but I do know that leaning in to just fully receiving for my husband and allowing him to support our family without stress, [00:57:00] trusting and opening up to that.

And receiving him loving me in that way. Whoa, I’m sweating just thinking about it like that’s big, right? Huge. And not every family has this ability. Right. I get that. But this is my journey. This is the reality I’ve created. And so, I’m nervous. I’m excited. And I’m really pumped about what February and April are going to look like because I cannot imagine our life in one year from now because a year ago, man, I, I didn’t realize how stressed I was.

I didn’t see all the things that, yeah, this job was perfect, but it was a massive stress, massive stress. I didn’t sleep well. I had migraines, right? So knowing that as I lean into opening this receiving container, what does this look like to receive in this way? Like what invitations are going to come my [00:58:00] way?

What beautiful work is going to come out of this because I’ve taken a breath. I’ve looked at. Who I really am and who I really want to serve and how do I want to serve in this life. Oh my gosh, I’m so excited. If I can, I’m trying to remember that I, I don’t just have to get through this rest period. I have to actually enjoy it first for it to Work..

Yes. I’m trying to like parameters around it. Like you’re only allowed to rest for a month or you’re only allowed to rest for three months. Like, no, that defeats the purpose Mariah. You need to. Open up and rest and receive all the bounty, you know, and then, and then the invitation and the opening will then come in spades.

Wow. Congrats. Congrats. Cause what

Gissele: you’re stepping into is the unknown, right? And so often, you know, so often we are so afraid to trust, like we didn’t grow up in us in situations where. We may [00:59:00] not always have trusted maybe our parents or people in our lives. And when we were taught that we always had to have that security.

And so to go into the unknown it requires courage. I’ve been in your shoes. I left a workplace that I was unhappy in, with very clearly guided to do something else like clearly guided and everything kind of. You know, move forward in order for me to be in that spot. And then Bob gets like nothing crickets.

And I had to go through this journey of. Number one, like you said, am I still worthy and lovable, even if I don’t achieve anything in the world? Like, even if I don’t, cause at the time I had lofty dreams, I’ve got to change child welfare. I was going to bring compassion to the world. I don’t know all these things I do.

And then I had to take a hard look at myself and say, can I still love myself? Even if I don’t accomplish anything, [01:00:00] even if I don’t fix the world or help anyone or do anything, can I still look at myself? With admiration and with appreciation. The second thing I had to learn was everything has its time, right?

Like everything kind of has its, its season. And how can I shift this moments? Cause I was like you, I’d work, I started working. I was 13 and I always had money and I was always working in here. I was like, Not having any income, not having any money at multiple degrees at all these things. And I was being guided to do this work and I’m like, I don’t know how this is going to turn out.

I have no clue. And for me, knowing what’s important, like control, like I need to control all these things. I need to know always working. Like what’s my next step. What’s like five steps here and to surrender in that capacity to just go, okay. It has been for me also. It has been [01:01:00] definitely. I don’t want to call it challenging, but it’s been dynamic.

I like to use the word dynamic, because it feels so unnatural to us, even though it’s the most natural thing. There’s been so many times in my life where the universe, God’s source has given me so many amazing things. But then I forget I going back into my fear mode, I go, well, I need to know where the next thing is going to be.

And it’s like, what the heck? So So yeah, so I can, I can totally understand that perspective of we need, we need almost to prove our value, that there’s a reason why we’re alive, that we have to kind of earn our worth. It can feel so challenging, and that’s probably been the best gift I’ve given myself, which is like, Okay, I don’t need to prove my get my worth to anyone, including myself.

So that has helped me a lot in [01:02:00] terms of being able to let go and I’m still, I’m right at the precipice of getting where I really want to know where, which is. Savoring. Yeah. Each and every single little moment savoring. What has been your relationship with that savoring

Mariah: You know? So I’m going to share something that’s probably going to make listeners a little uncomfortable. That’s okay. I’m used to uncomfortable in a really wonderful way.

So recently I went to an event, it was called desire on fire. And it was, it’s all about living your life of pleasure, like, like truly savoring, like being turned on about life. You know, and it, and this event was only like, 2 weeks ago and I’ve been, I’ve, I’ve been really in this, this place of tension because my life is.

Really wonderful in an [01:03:00] unbelievable ways, except this one little thing work isn’t quite right. Right. And I have this like, I can’t, I’ve had this, tension around like, well, I really can’t complain because the rest of my life is so wonderful that this one little thing that’s not working. I have no right to.

To want more. Right. Okay. That’s kind of like the background, right? So I go to desire on fire event. And these two women who have been practicing, savoring and leaning into this pleasure for many years, right? One of the sessions, She got up and she, and the session was all about bragging because as women, we don’t brag.

Right. We’re taught to like, get really small, you know, like, it’s not polite to share your wins, like all, all [01:04:00] the junk that comes up with that. Right. She got up on stage and she bragged. And when you brag from a place of reverence for yourself and a place of love and like true self love, like when you brag from that place, it’s a game changer.

And I will tell you, she got up there on the stage and she started bragging. Right. And she’s bragging about a lot of things that I could also brag about. Right. And she’s gone on about like, I don’t know, a few minutes and I’m like, okay, it would be polite for her to do one more brag. Like, this is me judging her.

Right. And I’m like, I noticed, I’m like, what the, what is that? Like, she can get up there as long as she wants to brag. Like, that’s the point of this. Calm down. Like, I’m like swatting that bitch off my shoulder. Like,

Gissele: shut up. This is not your turn, Nancy. Let’s go.

Mariah: That’s not the sister I want to be. So I listened to her and she gave me [01:05:00] permission.

Like watching her tears running down her face, bragging about her husband and her son and everything she’s overcome. Right. And I realized, like, Damn, I’ve come so far. Like I have so much to brag about in my life and I swear, listening to her brag. It may sound ridiculous. It flipped the switch in my brain that I was like, this is a good thing.

Bragging is a good thing. And there’s something about like bragging and acknowledging the wonder in your life that allows you to savor it. Right. And so really silly yesterday that I realized I had begun savoring life in a different way. I took my girls into staples. My daughter was demanding art projects and I needed paper and whatever.

So we go in and we’re walking in and I’m holding both my girl’s hands because now I’m not afraid of touch and I don’t mind it. Right. [01:06:00] And this woman is yelling from behind me, ma’am. And I’m like, and I turn around and there’s this woman running towards me with a green piece of paper. And in my head, I’m like, I didn’t drop anything.

I know I don’t have any green paper in my car. And there was like, I’m like, what does she want? And she’s like, I have this coupon for 10 off. Like, do you want it? And I was like, I was like, this is one of those moments where I can like truly savor like the synchronicities and the thoughtfulness of the

Gissele: abundance that is

Mariah: in the abundance that’s all around.

Like, it may seem so simple, but this was like a moment of like, Life is amazing. And I’m yes. Thank you so much. This is so kind of you. Like, Oh my God. Thank you. The light on this woman’s face. When I responded with like that love and that savoring, I lit it lit her up. Like she lit me up and then, and she lit up too.

And I was like, this. I need more of this in [01:07:00] my life. Like this was such a simple exchange, but like did so much for the both of us. I’m like, I savored it. I like breathed it in and I was like, yes. And then I was excited about it. And I was like, girls, we’ve got 10. Like we should buy something special. And the girls got to pick out like, you know, 12 for the little things that like little art palettes that they’re so tickled about that they can print, they can paint and then display.

Like, oh my gosh, so much abundance came from that. One moment. It costs that stranger nothing, you know, to give me a piece of paper. So I feel like I’ve truly leaned into what savoring life means in a different way since then, like, and everybody’s going to have their moments of like, that were that light switch flips.

And of course, I’m going to have moments where I’m not grateful. And I’m like, yeah. Yeah. Come back. You know, that’s life. Like life is not always going to be perfect. Like I’ve got that big conversation coming up with my husband that I need to be vulnerable about. But I [01:08:00] can savor that to like the juiciness of that intimacy and that connection.

Like, Oh, there is so much. So I would love it. You know, like if you start bragging, like, and you just start, I brag. And when you do it from a place of like reverence and love for yourself, right. And then all you can do to respond to someone who’s bragging is well bragged. So simple. Well bragged. Right. Like so simple.

But like, it’s just like this acknowledgement of you acknowledging the magic in your life that is so potent. And

Gissele: I think you raised an important issue, at least for me in terms of when I was listening to you. So often we don’t brag because we’ve been taught that is. Not appropriate, not compact, not kind to be bragging, especially if somebody is like, you know, you don’t tell a starving person that you have you, you had cake.

Right. And so, but so often we defer [01:09:00] our happiness or our celebration to spare other people’s feelings. But really, there is. A place to celebrate, right? Like there are people that you can celebrate with, you know, that they’re going to be like, well, and then when they brag, you’re going to be like, well, right?

Like you’re both going to be your cheerleader squad. Whereas I think. I don’t know. I think what I was kind of leaning into my discomfort when you were sharing that is more around, I do well bragging with people I feel safe with to well brag, and then they feel safe for us to go, girl. And then there’s other people that I know, like, I’m more cautious in terms of I don’t want to make you uncomfortable or make you think that.

Right. So I’m just gonna, you know, I’m not going to talk that much about it. Like, but, but I don’t know if I’m, what I’m leaning in with or into is like, am I then [01:10:00] minimizing myself in that moment so that you will not have a hurt feelings. I guess that’s what I have to sit

Mariah: with. Yeah. And I love that because right when you brag from a place of self reverence and love, people can feel that there’s a difference.

When I go, I got four candy bars and you only got two, like, like that’s different. Like that bragging is like loser fish. Yeah. And like when it’s bragging done, you know, and it’s sort of side and we’re putting down other women, that’s different. That feels yucky. Everybody feels that that is, that’s not safe.

That’s not good. Right. That’s not bragging. No. Yeah. That source that, that, that is you killing other women, like energetically emotionally like that. That’s a no go. But when it’s done from a place of love and I did it for the first time. Yesterday with a woman at my gym who we’re not super intimate about, however, there’s like this [01:11:00] camaraderie.

I see her all the time. So she’s like, I would, I would call a semi safe space and I recognize the fact that I’m not closer to bar women is because I’m not honest and I’m not truthful and I’m not intimate. I hold back a lot. And so therefore they hold back. And then, so then we, I lose this place of connection and compassion.

Right. And so I said, I said it for the first time. I said, I’m going to brag and I gave her a little brag and she was like, that’s amazing. And then she’s like, Oh my God, like, and she had something to share with me that responded. And so in that moment I created connection and like compassion and intimacy in this really simple moment with the with a brag, and I started with, I’m going to do a little brag.

And I gave her my brag, but it was a place, you know, like I had my hands on my heart and it was a place of reverence that I was sharing with her and she saw that and reflected it back to me. So I think, you know, reading the room, trusting yourself and knowing like, am I, [01:12:00] am I ready to step into this or do I?

Is today I’m a little tired and a little quiet and I need to make myself a little, a little small, you know, is this the right moment? And I think using that intuition, you know, we use our intuition so much when we’re parenting and going out in the world, like trust that. Oh my gosh, you know, oh my gosh, that is like the mom intuition.

There’s one thing I can tell women to trust it is that.

Gissele: Yeah. Oh yeah. For sure. I could tell you stories about the mom intuition. But I just wanted to acknowledge, like that, what you said, like, I felt like it really resonated with me and also the story about women. So historically, I was not taught to have women friends.

I had a really close best friend growing up just. Kind of one person. And then my sister and I are close, She’s my ride or die. But historically with other women, I always, always guarded. I was always, I wasn’t sure, I wasn’t sure [01:13:00] how to show up and I always thought it was them. Right?

Like, Oh, they’re just clickie or whatever. And then when I realized again, another Taylor Swift, it’s me, I’m the problem. It’s me. I realized, Oh crap, it’s me. I’m so afraid. Of being rejected that I’m not even allowing them to come in or to even see. And when I changed my energy and open myself up, people just started, like I have, like I do a book club now, like I have so many beautiful women in my life.

Some of them just like, you know, I see once in a while, But I have so many beautiful women that I have met through this experience. And I’m like, Holy crap. Had I just been less afraid and less protected and seeming as if it was them that, Oh, you know what? They’re just not my type or they’re just not my style or they’re just this or that or the other.

Once I was ready to be vulnerable [01:14:00] and realize it’s my energy, that’s putting people, right. Yeah. And then once I was able to say, no, I’m going to come with an open heart and just love and just be. And it’s okay, because I belong to myself, so nobody can tell me I don’t belong. So when I changed that about myself, I had so many people that were just like, Hey, anyone do this?

You want to do that? And it’s like, Wow. I could have done this

Mariah: earlier. I wish I had known, had I known, you know, like I known this eight years ago, my oldest was born, man, my parenting experience would have been wildly different if I had that, that sisterhood around me and that community, because if I was willing to be vulnerable and honest about them.

You know who I, who I am right and had compassion for all the weirdness that I was, you know that I was trying to squelch down, right. Who would be wildly different. My life would also be [01:15:00] different and I wouldn’t have had the lessons I have and you know so I’m, I’m grateful for that but you know I think about like, I have one relationship where I like look back on and I’m like, Oh man, I wasn’t honest or truthful I was invulnerable, I wasn’t.

I didn’t love myself enough to open up. And then I lost that friendship, you know, I’m like, am I brave enough? Do I have the courage to go back to that woman and be like, and own it and look at it? I don’t know. I don’t have the answers for that. I don’t need to know right now. Yeah. We don’t need to know everything at this moment.

No, for sure. So I think just having compassion comes, it all comes back to compassion, you know, like. Yeah. I have some softness for myself. I don’t need to have that hard masculine edge that push that go, I’m a feminine being like I can open up to be soft and receive and revel in the [01:16:00] creativity and the compassion and the love, you know, like I am a being of love.

It’s what we are as women with a feminine essence. And so, oh, life is just so much richer and safe, like worthy of being savored when you come out from a place of love and compassion. And you’ll have, we’ll have these moments of like light switches. Like I had a light switch moment yesterday in the parking lot of staples.

Gissele: Not what you think you do. You think it’s going to be meditating in your chair and then you’re like staples. What’s going on? I know,

Mariah: and I was like telling my husband about it, and he’s like, that, that’s amazing. You know, like he knew even though it was insignificant, but it was significant. It was. It’s always significant.

Oh, yeah. And I was like, this is going to sound really silly, but the best part of my day happened in Staples.

Gissele: Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. So we’re getting kind of to the end. I have two more questions. The first one [01:17:00] is, I’m asking this of all my guests in this season, and that is what’s your definition of unconditional love?

Oh,

Mariah: I love this, but I also hate this.

Gissele: There’s no right or wrong answers,

Mariah: whatever flows. Yeah, so my definition of unconditional love, the word unconditional love makes me bristle a little bit because they’re, you know, that implies that there’s conditional love. And there is no conditional love. I’m, oh, there is none.

Like all love is unconditional. So we don’t need that. Right. So I prefer to say limitless love because love to me has no bounds. Right. I’ve been married to my husband for 11 with him for like 15. And like, our love is only deeper. It only gets better. And so I think unconditional love or limitless love is just the ability.

To know more, to learn more, to see [01:18:00] more of truth. Right. Love is truth. And when you’re willing to look at all the truths, both the pretty and the ugly, right, you deepen and widen that love and it becomes more luscious. You know, it comes from like this, you know, desert, like sandy love to like rich chocolate, creamy with cherry sauce and like thick frosting and just like yumminess.

Right. Right. So it has no bounds when you’re willing to see

Gissele: truth, powerful, very love that, love that. The other question, which is our final question is where can people find you? I know that you said you’re going through a shift in your business. However, I do feel that once you let go and relax, things that you’re supposed to do will naturally come to you.

So where can people reach out to chat with you, [01:19:00] even if they have a question or they just want to, to find out more about what your journey, what it brings next, where can people reach out to

Mariah: you? Bye. So you can find me on Instagram, and my handle is my name, Mariah G. Kimball. So I’m on Instagram a lot.

You’ll see all sorts of, you know, cheeky things and fun things. And I also have a website, which isn’t going anywhere. But I’m sure it’s gonna, I know it’s gonna shift. And you can find me at MariahsCrystalLibrary. com. And those are the two main places.

Gissele: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Mariah, for this amazing conversation.

I, it was really, I kind of actually lost track of time. It was, it was beautiful and it was vulnerable and it was so authentic and it made me remember so many different parts of my own journey. And so I’m deeply grateful that you were able to share that part of yourself with us. And maybe we can come back.[01:20:00]

Maybe you can come back when you’re at a different stage of your journey. When you’re at a different stage of your journey, and then we could talk about what the next stage

Mariah: for Mariah is. Oh, I would love that. It was an honor. It’s such an honor to be here today. Thank you so much. Okay.

Gissele: Bye everyone.

Thank you for listening to another episode of the love and compassion podcast, which is I’ll.

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Transcript[00:00:00]

Michael: Hello and welcome to the love and compassion podcast with Giselle. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world. Don’t forget to like it, subscribe for more amazing content. On today’s podcast, we’ll be talking about learning from our dogs, how to live a more fulfilling life.

Gissele: My guest today is Michael Overlea, who is a canine partnered men’s guide, author of the book, Let Your Dog Lead. He helps male dog owners who suck at relationships, become amazing at relationships. He provides one to one coaching individual in small group retreats.

With the dogs, of course, and he’s developing an app so that men can dip their toes in. Are you ready to become amazing? Please join me in welcoming Michael to the show. Hi, Michael.

Michael: Yay. Oh, I sound pretty good.

Gissele: You do. You sound fantastic. I was wondering if you could start by sharing [00:01:00] with our listeners what led you to do the work that you do today.

Michael: A lifetime of not paying attention followed by the death of my brother in 2017. What happened from that event was just, it was my awakening as a but I was plunged into deep, deep grief over the loss of him. He was, he was the one guy I could count on in my world, right? What happened was he died a few days later.

I had this experience where I was literally leveled and laid out and crying uncontrollably and feeling like I was being ripped apart. And as I came out of that that, that same, that same day. My dog crawled up on my chest and just started pumping me full of love and healing energy. And I was like, what the heck is going on?

So I started looking into this and then I [00:02:00] realized also, well, this is very important. I realized that I didn’t like who I was being in the world, but I wasn’t able to see that I wasn’t able to. Notice how I was showing up and now I could and I didn’t like it. I was like, whoa, we need to change this right away.

So that precipitated all of this and what that dog did for me. I never knew it was possible, so I started looking back at my other dogs and realize what they had done for me. My 1st dog kept me alive when I was 11

. I was suicidal after my dad left. And well, right. Yeah, but I just displaced all that. So all these things, all these dogs, all these lessons, like, oh, my gosh, people need to know about this.

I need to go help some people and so that they can, they can get out of this, this tough guy, macho destructive cycle.

Gissele: Thank you for sharing that. It’s so interesting as a dog owner myself, I have a Doberman Shepherd. It’s so interesting [00:03:00] how dogs offer us so much but very subtly without doing a lot.

You know, in the book you talk about how often in the world we’re doing, we’re doing, we’re doing without being. Dogs just kind of show up in the world as beings, right? And so what were some of the key lessons you learned from your dogs throughout your journey?

Michael: Oh, that I can slow down. I mean, that is so important.

And, you know, before we started recording today, you and I were having this conversation about why on earth do I get up at three 30 in the morning? That’s right. If you want to look at it from a financial perspective, I’m paying myself first, right? So I’m, I’m filling my cup so that I can go out through the rest of my day and give people what, what they might need.

Dogs are fantastic. They can get in this huge scuffle fight. And then minutes later, they’re just like, what? Oh, was there a problem? You know, we, we don’t do that. We create these [00:04:00] stories about the event or we bring in an old story about an event and now that guy’s a jerk for life. And it’s like, well, we’re, we’re all hurt people trying to trying to work our way through this world.

Their dogs are constantly showing us all these amazing things, how to decompress quickly or discharge, right? Shake it off. It doesn’t mean you’ve solved the problem or the underlying issue, but you can let go of that charge right now so that you can come back to a place where you might be able to get into that a little more.

They’re so fast to experience joy. Yeah. Right. They don’t have to plan it. They don’t have to wait for a vacation or a trip or, Oh, I can’t wait to, you know, my life sucks, but I’m going on vacation, you know, there’s just none of that. And again, it’s, it’s this constant overthinking overanalyzing. We create a lot of our own misery and just their ability to be so present all the time.

I think is probably the biggest

Gissele: lesson. You said so many powerful [00:05:00] things. I want to start with the shake it off. Cause I actually, you know, I read in your book that you do Qigong and so do I. And one of the things that we learn in Qigong is the shake, right? You shake your whole body to release it.

And I noticed how often my dog does it. Like when he’s like having an issue or whatever, he just shake it off and then he’ll move on with his life. But as you say, we often hold on to these stories about Who we think we are and who other people are that actually lead to us continuing to suffer because we’re putting all of our energy and attention on our suffering or the story we tell ourselves about who we are.

And so I think that was really important. The other one was, is I was reading your book. I remembered about savoring, about savoring my life. Cause I thought about, okay, well, what does my dog do in the circumstance? he loves being outside, even though he’s like has allergies. My dog will actually just sometimes close his eyes and lift his [00:06:00] snout and just like breathe in and feel the air.

And I thought to myself, how often am I savoring my life? Like, how often am I really, really present? Like you said, instead of waiting for my vacation or wait, when I do this, then I’ll be happy. how have your dogs helped you savor or get more out of your everyday?

Oh

Michael: God, in probably a million ways that I don’t even remember. So, I have an example, my last dog Darby, and he’s since he’s left us. Right. And but he, he was the one, he was a catalyst for all of this. So Darby would just do these things to try and get my attention because he could feel that I was like, or caught up in something, or maybe I just needed to go outside.

So he would stand at the back door, the sliding door and, and look outside. He’d look back at me until I would get up and I’d go to let him out and he, [00:07:00] and he’d just stand there, right? I’d open the door and he’d, he’d look up at me and one day I finally got it. He, he knew I needed to get outside so we could go outside and we could, we could play or just stand.

And I live in a pretty windy area so we could, there were smells coming from all over the place and, and the breeze. And he would, as you say, he would just close his eyes and you just watch that nose work. And I’m like, what is he smelling? I can’t smell it, but it would, it would take me out of whatever I was in and I would just be so present and lost in the moment.

It would completely discharge whatever was going on.

Gissele: Thank you for sharing that. Cause I really appreciate that because that’s what I find with my dog. he is my Velcro dog. Like he is. It’s completely like always near me, always on top of me or, you know, sleeping around me.

And that’s one of the things I found since I started working from home, that whenever we go to let him out, he won’t go without me. Like he will [00:08:00] not do anything without me. And, but I just realized as you were talking that that’s what he’s trying to do. He’s trying to get me out there. Cause it’s true.

If I don’t go out there sometimes with him, it’s like, I don’t go out at all. I’ll just sit there, you know, working on my things. And. And I find that he kind of nudges me. And I think what this has helped me realize, and there’s so much more wisdom there that I could tap into that I’m not.

So thank you for that.

Michael: I think that’s true with, with the dogs and other relationships in our lives, we were just not open all the time. And I don’t mean 24 hours a day, but we, I think we miss a lot because we get caught in our own thing. Maybe we’re uncomfortable about something. So we put up a little bit of a wall and we just can’t see that thing.

It’s right here. So, I mean, it’s fascinating. I’ve made a practice of going outside with Indigo almost all the time now. Sometimes I’ll just let her out to go pee, but like 3 30 in the morning, if she gets up with us, I go and stand outside with her. It doesn’t matter what the weather is, right? I may [00:09:00] have to gear up, but we go outside and we stand in the cold blowing snow.

Right. And that’s when I come inside, I’m like, Oh, that was great.

Gissele: And that’s what I really appreciated about your book is too, is, you have an appreciation for life, like an appreciation, even for the difficult things, the way that you were talking about when you were doing the shadow work. You know, you kind of related to digging and then you’re like, Oh, what treasures am I going to find?

And some people are like, well, we don’t want to find those treasures. sometimes that’s very difficult. So that’s one of the things that really struck me about the book, which was like even grief, you have an appreciation for grief and what it can teach you. How has gratitude helped you, kind of live a more fulfilling life?

Oh

Michael: man, what a great question. I. I wasn’t as able [00:10:00] to feel or show gratitude until I dug into some of these things. So those treasures are things that we buried, right? We, we put them there and then cover them up with something. And then we put something else on top. We covered that up. If you’re willing to start to uncover some of those things, you realize that, you know, okay, the only person who’s really judging me in life is probably myself.

Why was I so afraid to experience this? It was painful at the time, but what can I learn from it? And how can that help me be even a better person now? And where can I go from there? Right? So we’re so full of potential possibility, but we keep ourselves sheltered and hidden in place. So once I started to uncover some of these things, I was like, Oh my gosh.

Okay. Yeah, that kind of sucks, but let’s, let’s take care of this thing, right? Let’s, let’s give it some love, show some [00:11:00] compassion. And I was able to increase my ability to experience gratitude.

Gissele: And what you say it’s about perspective, because I think that was one of the things that, I thought was really important about your book, which was you were willing to go there and willing to see that there was a gift there, whereas people avoided because they think, oh, it’s going to be painful.

It’s something I just want to forget. Whereas you’re willing to open up and say, where’s the gift in this moment. Yeah. I wanted, since you mentioned compassion, I wanted to ask how compassion has helped you be, be more loving towards yourself and other people.

It’s

Michael: fascinating. It’s fascinating. Some people talk about showing yourself more compassion, but maybe I don’t know how to do that.

So, can I show more compassion to another? Go. Oh, [00:12:00] okay. I understand how that feels going that direction. And then dogs are perfect for that. They’re constantly showing us compassion. They can just be there and hold space, right? They don’t have to be, Hey, I’m doing this thing for you. So I can show my dog more compassion and only a little understanding that I can’t speak their language.

They might be experiencing something when they’re upset. And that’s all that’s it, right? Just this tiny little thing. And that might create a small shift in me. Oh, so when I get uncomfortable, I can beat myself up or show myself some compassion, but it’s a practice. We don’t go from zero to a hundred or do 180 degree turn.

It’s a one degree shift. It’s this tiny little thing. And then you have to experience that, Oh, Oh, okay. I’m okay. I’m all right. Maybe I can go a little more next time.

Gissele: you emphasize the one degree shift and you give practices that can help people start to shift out of, [00:13:00] start to help them change themselves so that they can change their lives.

But not in a way that is, like you said, you’re going from zero to a hundred percent self compassion. You’re, you’re taking those baby steps to get people more and more comfortable with change. And as they get more comfortable with change, they can actually start to do the work to, to heal themselves.

Right. So I think that was really, really pivotal. You also talked about vulnerability and I think that’s a really important topic, especially for men. In a world where there has been historically some toxic masculinity, you talked about alpha males in what was considered Darwin’s theory on survival of the fittest.

Why is it so important for men in particular to talk about vulnerability?

Michael: Because that is death to us. All right. A lot of us are raised to be, you know, be strong and tough and be the one there no matter what, [00:14:00] whether it’s the breadwinner or, you know, you always show up for everybody. No matter what’s going on.

You put yourself second all the time. You make sure everyone’s handled and taken care of. I mean, it’s and it’s unmanageable and I mean, if you don’t believe me, just turn on the news. We take the take these things to extremes. We’re not taught, however, to go ahead and feel our feelings, right? I mean, we all have them and they’re there for a reason, but we’re, we’re taught to shut them down, push them aside.

Don’t cry. Don’t do this. Because if someone sees you in this vulnerable state, then you’re, you’re prone to attack. So, I mean, we’re fear mongered from the time we’re kids and it’s not an intentional thing from our parents necessarily, but maybe that’s how they were taught and their parents were taught and their parents were taught.

If you can’t be a little more vulnerable, you’re not going to experience that love in your life that you want because you’re not able to let it in, right? So maybe you get this tiny little [00:15:00] opening. And then, but you want, you want the whole thing. You see other people being happy and great relationships.

Well, you got to open that a little more and then a little more, but it goes back to that, you know, the 1 degree shift and the practice of allowing a tiny bit more. And you can practice that with your dog, right? Maybe not just a cuddle buddy, and the relationship’s not the same for everybody, but what else is possible?

What else is your dog trying to show you? Just get curious.

Gissele: And, you know, it’s so important that you mentioned not allowing love in. And that’s the thing about walls, right? They prevent us from getting hurt, but they also prevent. love from coming in as well. And so it’s understanding that we’re doing ourselves our disservice by preventing or narrowing what we feel to avoid hurt.

Michael: Well, we think it’s preventing the hurt. We’re still feeling the hurt. We just, I I got this

Gissele: because it’s self, because it’s self made, right? [00:16:00] It’s our thoughts and perceptions and feelings. It’s about what we think other people are thinking, what we, the memories that we have of whatever events, so we are the ones who are making ourselves suffer, which is why I thought it was really important in your book that you talk about choice

I think so many people feel they don’t have choice and that there’s that victim consciousness things happen to me. People are do things to me. But the really key aspect is that we always have choice and we’re always choosing. And we can also choose what we put our energy and attention on, whether it be something that we want to create something positive or to continue to believe we have no choice.

Yeah. So how has choice been instrumental in helping you change?

Michael: Well, you already hit it on the head. I didn’t actually realize because I was so stuck in my fear and anger and grief that I had a [00:17:00] choice. And when I was able to obtain a different perspective and realize that I’m always choosing anyway, I just may be choosing what’s not benefiting me.

That was, that was a mind blower for me. There’s a native Native American story about an elder talking to a younger man about two wolves. And so the elder says, we all have two wolves right and I might, I’ll probably say it wrong but, and you have love and you have fear. And, well, which one is the strongest?

And he says, whichever one you feed. So that is our choice. Do I, do I want to continue to do I want to be unhappy? Do I want to be upset? Do I want to be angry all the time? Do I want to be rageful? Right? Do I want to be fearful? Do I want to be scared and hide all the time? Or do I want to don’t want to try one little thing?

Do I want to try two little things? Do I want to [00:18:00] step a little further outside my box? Do I want to be happy? Do I want to experience joy? It’s all connected. Like if you could picture a line or we’ve got, you know, bliss over here and just a dismal failure dismay and death on this side, they’re just part of the same line.

It’s just where would you rather be on this line? Now, you can’t go from, from abysmal death and failure of life to bliss overnight, but you can start to move down that line. But that’s your choice.

Gissele: Yeah, absolutely. It is your choice. And I think that’s helping people understand that they have choice is really critical.

And that in that there is no matter what they do, they always have choice. And I do agree with what you say in the book, which is like, we create our reality. We create everything that happens to us, you know, with our thoughts and our perceptions. That doesn’t mean, [00:19:00] cause I think people misunderstand this.

People then think, oh, that’s my fault. We don’t consciously do it. It’s subconscious, but it is our responsibility to do better for ourselves. It is our responsibility to, once we have that awareness to heal ourselves, because, you know, as much as each of us support different people, you can’t heal anybody.

They have to choose to do the work, to show up, to listen to their dog, to follow their gut instincts and to do all they have to take the steps. So ultimately it is about choice. I wanted to go back to your comment on anger because you talk about anger in the book, which I’m so grateful about. It’s interesting to me how anger seems to be the only acceptable emotion for men instead of, cause anger often hides other emotions like sadness and grief and so on.

Has your relationship with anger [00:20:00] changed since you wrote that book?

Michael: It has. Yeah, so so many things underlie what shows up as anger for us, and it could actually just be anger, right? You’re, you’re, you’re frustrated and enraged about something, you know, you witnessed or something that happened to you.

And oh, and that’s okay, but a lot of times it’s sadness, depression, loneliness, grief, but we’re not aware of how those feelings actually impact us. So they show up as anger. It’s so funny because in our society and others as well, we talk about how anger is such a problem, but then we actually create that and continue this problem by, by allowing people to just.

Only show anger, you know, and, and more so men, like women are, women are berated for getting angry. It’s like, what? Why? [00:21:00] That doesn’t make any sense. So, but it’s fascinating. My relationship with anger back to your question was, has changed immensely. I still get angry. But I know what’s underneath it, right?

I’ll go, I can still react and get upset. I’ll go, Oh, oh, really? You know, that’s Oh, geez. Okay. All right. Yeah, we’re gonna follow that one away. That’s that’s something I need to work on or man. Yeah, that’s okay. We can we can discharge this and get on with our day.

Gissele: I like Dr. Joe Dispenza’s perspective on this.

He says it’s not that you don’t react. It’s how long you react. Yeah,

Michael: stay stuck in that story.

Gissele: Yeah. Like how long are you going to stay there? Right? Like, it’s not that you are going to completely shift yourself. You might still be reacting, but how long are you choosing to stay in the story? How long are you choosing to stay in that victim consciousness?

And one [00:22:00] of the choices I would say that you talk about is slowing down. And I wanted to read this part of the book cause I really found it. And I think it was the one that helped me, ah, really go remember to savor. And the book you said, you know, you’re talking about slowing down and it’s, I started to feel connected to everything in a completely different way.

I became the bear, the wolf. I was the cloud in the wind. I could go anywhere and be anything. And for me, that was so powerful because. As you said earlier, we’re often limited by our limited thinking. We think, Oh, when I go on vacation, then I’ll be able to be by the ocean when I do this and I’ll be able to do that.

But when we allow our consciousness to expand and we allow ourselves to be as we truly are, we could be with the ocean, with the sky, with every, every aspect of it. And then we understand how interconnected everything is and it helps us [00:23:00] feel not so alone. And so. What helped you really connect with that or, or really gain that understanding?

Michael: When I was able to spend time with Darby more so outside and just witnessed how he interacted with other animals, you know, plants, trees, water. He just seemed grounded, like always grounded. And I was like, Oh man, I really want that. I want to feel. Just comfortable in, in my skin all the time. So what is that?

How come it doesn’t matter where we were. He could just, Oh, I want, I want to find peace in every moment. And that’s where that came from. But how do I do that? If I’m, if I’m feeling disconnected from something, I’m not peaceful with it. And I’m not peaceful with myself. So I, you know, began my practices and [00:24:00] sometimes I meditate.

I do self hypnosis just guided imagery. And you’ve already brought this up. If I close my eyes. I can be at my favorite beach in San Diego like that. I can almost smell the ocean. I can hear the gulls and the waves and see the clouds rolling in. That’s what we are so powerful. We create all the time as we’ve talked about.

So what would you rather create? Do you want to find that peace in that moment? You can do this at work. Right. You’re feeling frustrated. You’re pissed off sitting in your cubicle. Your boss just went, you know, close your eyes for a second, put yourself back on that beach and be like, okay, you can do it in seconds.

It’s fantastic.

Gissele: It just reminded me of my happy place, like going to my happy place. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, I feel it’s so important, right?

you have this quote in your book called it’s [00:25:00] Which is, each head has a, has a world within it, obviously, because it’s true, each of us is sort of a universe unto ourselves, right? Does this saying have any personal meaning to you? Why did you choose to put it in the book?

The first

Michael: time I heard it, or read it, actually, I was like, what? That doesn’t make any sense, right? I, I couldn’t grasp that. So, I, I had to spend a lot of time with that, until I realized. Okay, so I have my own thoughts, perceptions the way my feelings show up, the way I express myself, the way I put my socks on, right?

Everything I do is, is maybe a tiny bit different to me. We all do similar activities. We, most of us worry about the same things, but in, in our own version of that, and I was like, wow. So you know, how do I see I can look at something and see maybe something completely different than what my friend is looking [00:26:00] at, even though we’re looking at the same object or, or situation.

And I just thought that was amazing and fascinating. What that allowed me to do was give myself a break. I was like, Oh, I don’t have to get it. We punish ourselves for not seeing other people’s perspectives or not understanding. And then we’re afraid to try to because we think maybe we, you know, we’re insecure about missing it up or being wrong or whatever that is.

And yeah, every head is a world, right? Every head is a world. I mean, you could take this, what you see and what I see are two different things, but it’s the same thing.

Gissele: And I think so understanding that also helped me realize that people’s experiences of, I guess what I would quote the same circumstances can differ, right, because it depends on really where they have their perception.

And so it is possible for people to walk [00:27:00] away with two different experiences, and we don’t need to negate one person’s experiences over the other we just need to understand it. And so I think that’s where. This current cancel culture is really doing us a disservice because then we don’t get to listen to each other and hear each other’s stories and come closer together and lean in rather than what we’re doing, which is like, I have to be right.

This is my perspective is the right one in therefore canceled. And so, but I do think this will change. I think we’re just in a pendulum swing. Before we didn’t believe the victims. Now we don’t right now. We don’t believe the oppressors and now hopefully eventually will sit in the middle where we can actually lean into one another and listen to each other.

Yeah, I hope at

Michael: least. Yeah. And you brought up like 10 great points right there. In this culture, we have to be right. And you know, I think that goes way back [00:28:00] to as a child underneath all of this sense of not feeling worthy or, or not feeling like you’re enough somehow. And if I feel right, if I feel justified that I feel strong, I feel good about myself.

And that’s really unfortunate because we’re still allowing our, our 5 year old selves run how we show up during the day. And again, it’s, it’s not a criticism people because I’ve been there. And sometimes, you know, my 3 year old will still show up and throw a little tantrum. So I have to be able to hold that and be and deal with that.

Right?

Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. Like the perspective on being right. I often wonder if, if that perspective has to do with our need to belong, like if I’m not right, then therefore maybe I’m not valuable and therefore I don’t belong. And so I wondered if, maybe that had something to do with it. I don’t really know.

Michael: Yeah. Well, it makes sense to me.

Gissele: Yeah. [00:29:00] I will say that one of the things that we talk about in our family is the relationship has to be more important than being right. But sometimes we forget that cause you’re right.

Like this is kind of a journey, a journey. That we, we have to choose every day to be compassionate and loving. We have to choose every day to make choices that are positive for us and that focus on our dreams rather than, all the negative things. You mentioned the like self worth, how important has loving yourself and appreciating yourself been in your journey?

Massive,

Michael: absolutely massive. So I think underneath everything is a desire to feel safe and desire to feel loved. If we can’t get that from ourselves, then obviously we, we try and get that from other people. And that’s how we have so many problems in every relationship. Because in some fashion, we’re not feeling safe.

We’re not feeling loved. [00:30:00] Right? And that goes to acceptance and all these things. But once I started to realize that I can’t put keep putting all my emotional needs on everybody else’s shoulders. I’m like, Oh, I, I can, I can do this for myself. And I didn’t even know, I didn’t know that I could or needed to.

And that was something else that my dog showed me. They didn’t have to be doing all these things or telling me how great I am or how handsome I look. No, I didn’t, they didn’t do all that. They could just be there and love me. And I was like, Oh, this is possible. I don’t have to do anything. So that helped me learn to start to give myself a little more, feed myself a little more, feed that one wolf that I wanted to be.

Gissele: And I think this goes to show the power of presence, right? Dogs aren’t, like you said, actively saying, I love you, I want to be there. And we continually seek things outside of ourselves, but that never fills the hole. Because if [00:31:00] somebody doesn’t give us that love, then we’ll feel unloved, right? And so I think that was one of the things that I have experienced with my dog.

This is my first dog ever. And it’s that unconditional love. It’s that, that willingness to just be present with you and always excited to see you no matter what. How would you define unconditional love? I think

Michael: that is such a large question. As humans, we’re full of nothing. We’re full of nothing but conditions and expectations, right?

So it’s, for me, it’s total acceptance of themselves and the other. They don’t, they’re not putting themselves down because, you know, they’re getting too many treats and they’re putting on pounds. They’re not, they’re not making fun of us or judging us because we got a big belly [00:32:00] or no hair or, you know, what kind of car do you drive?

What kind of house do you live in and how much money do you have? None of that matters. Literally none of that. So everything can be removed. I can just be here and

Gissele: love you. It’s that total acceptance. And it goes to what you were saying about surrender, right? Surrender is such a powerful, beautiful thing.

I find, you know, a lot of people focus on manifesting things, right? For me, the greatest thing has been total incomplete surrender. It has been letting go of what I think should happen, letting go of things and just being in the moment. But surrender can feel difficult for people. It can feel challenging.

And this was actually a lesson I had to learn myself because I was so used to. Controlling things so used to knowing where, how things were going to happen knowing where my direction was next. And so surrendering has been the thing that I have done, which has probably impacted me the [00:33:00] most, but at times I found the most challenging.

What has been your experience with surrender? For

Michael: me, surrender was that was one of the most difficult things. I thought if I could control everything, then I’d feel safe, right? And I’d be able to find love because I can control this. I can make this happen. I had read a story about, I think it was Michael Jordan?

And about entering a flow state and how they actually get to a place where they let go of trying to control everything. And just enter this other place. I was like, well, what is that? What is that? So I started looking into it. I read a book by Coot Blackson. He’s an, he’s an amazing guy. The Power of Surrender.

Yes. I was like, Oh, wow. So I, I actively worked on surrendering [00:34:00] things that I was trying to hold so tightly onto and it was amazing, right? I could go from, go from this tension to this. To flow and like, oh, my gosh, that feels so much better. It was and I’m still doing it. Right? I haven’t, I haven’t achieved status, but it’s fantastic.

And we, but we think we’re doing better because we can, we think we can control everything. And we’re, we’re spinning our wheels and wasting so much time and energy on it.

Gissele: One of the things I had to learn on this journey, which kind of shook me like one of the questions you ask in your book is who am I, right?

So as I started going to this surrender place, I even surrendered the concept of time, right? Like, so then you start to live from that flow state, which means you’re constantly just living from following your passion. Then I got to a point where I was like, the things I was being guided to do didn’t make sense in my head from a logical perspective.

I should be doing [00:35:00] this for my business. I should be doing that for my business. Right. And there were days where we, like, I didn’t know what day it was. They’re like, I’m like, is it Wednesday? And there’ll be, we’re like, no, it’s Friday. I’m like, what? I and it, it kind of got to a place where I was like.

Who am I? Like, and who do I want to be in this world that has like kind of this structure? And as I’m living from this flow state and following my highest excitement, I’m feeling really uncomfortable. I’m feeling like I don’t fit with what’s happening.I’ve been there where you’re totally in the flow state, but then people, things remind you that you are.

In a box, so to speak, right? With respect to time and things you have to do and all of these things, and surrendering to life and allowing life to flow through you, if you’re not used to it, can feel really uncomfortable. It can feel really challenging.

have you had those experiences where you’re like, Oh my gosh, like surrendering just feels [00:36:00] so overwhelming because it, I guess it doesn’t feel safe because we’re not used to doing it.

I don’t know. Well,

Michael: we would rather be uncomfortable in this other way because it’s familiar, right? Right. So. Well, we’re uncomfortable to begin with. Why don’t you be uncomfortable in this other way? And see how that feels instead. What, what can come from being able to be uncomfortable? Instead of just being uncomfortable.

Yeah. It’s, it’s maddening what we do to ourselves.

Gissele: Yeah, but it’s, but it’s very similar to living the life of dogs, right? Like they don’t worry. Now, granted, they’re taken care of by us. And, you know, if we think about it in a larger sense, we are, if we allow ourselves to be taken care of by the universe, right?

So if we just allow ourselves to be not worrying about where our next meal is coming, like all of those things, if we allow ourselves to really find as much joy as possible, we could. [00:37:00] Actually live magical and fantastic lives, right? If we allowed ourselves to do that.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Spend, if you can, spend an hour maybe with your dog, like just follow them around.

Right? And then try it if you can take a whole day and do that. And just, they go and lay down, go and lay down or just sit. If they go to look, get up to go check out something, go check out the something. Sometimes I have

Gissele: no idea what my dog’s checking out. Don’t you ever find that your dog just barks and barks and I’m like thinking, I’m looking out there and I’m like, I can’t see what you’re seeing.

What are you seeing? There’s barking. Yeah.

Michael: Well, imagine their, their noses are, you know, at least a thousand times stronger than ours. Right. Their olfactory sense is off the charts. I would never be able to sleep like, man, I still stink. Yeah. I just showered. Whatever it is. And there, a lot of them don’t have as good a sight, but their hearing is at least four times better than ours.

So I mean, [00:38:00] all that input, well, they can hear stuff and smell stuff that I can’t even imagine from how far off it is. So but I’ll do that. I’ll actually, I’ll sit on the ground at the same height where she is standing and just like, what? I don’t, what is it?

Gissele: Me too. I’ll look around and I’m like, I can’t see anything.

I try

Michael: and pick up on that. And I mean, and these are exercises I give guys to do, like just stare out the window with your dog. Just. Put your phone down, turn off the music, turn off the TV, whatever, and just go stare with your dog. And just be curious. Maybe there’s a squirrel that you couldn’t pick up on, you know?

Gissele: Yeah. And curiosity is such an important part of compassion too, right? Like because as we get curious about one another, we stop judging. And in your book, you talk a lot about judgment, about some of the expectations we have and expectations can lead us to suffer. Right, would you say that your relationship with expectations has changed since you began this journey?

Yes. [00:39:00]

Michael: Yeah, it has lessened. I still have them. I still, I’m still really good at beating myself up. If I think I didn’t do something well, or, if I feel I didn’t help somebody enough, I can still give myself a nice little kick in the, in the, you know, what? But it’s lessened quite a bit. And I, I realized that.

If I’m doing all these things right now, these expectations of others and myself, well, so is that person, and so is that person, and so is that person, so it allows me to have a little more compassion for where they’re at, and that they may not get me, they may not understand me, maybe this doesn’t work for them so what do they need?

I don’t know. So, and that, that brings me back to curiosity. Because we really don’t know what we don’t know. We have no idea what’s going on for that other person in their world, you know, when they go home, that door closes, we have no idea what’s going on in there. We just know that when they’re in [00:40:00] front of us, they act a certain way and then we take it personally.

Well, it’s, it’s almost never actually about us. Right. That’s just, that’s their hurt spilling out.

Gissele: Yeah, agreed. One of the things though that I had learned in my life is that, even though it may not be about me, if I’m reacting to it, then it’s about me. So it’s, it’s my reaction really is the barometer about whether or not, if I don’t react, I’m like, Oh, it’s about them.

Like you said in your book, right? Like it’s hurt people, hurt people and you know, people that feel like they’re victims, they hurt others. Cool. Like, it’s not about me, but when I get triggered by something, somebody says or does, I’m like, Oh shoot, this is about me. Oh

Michael: crap. Well, we make it about us, right?

So like. You know, my neighbor doesn’t get up in the morning and say, all right, today, I’m going to be a real jerk to Mike. I’m going to tell him he’s this, this, and then, you know, so whatever happened or whatever [00:41:00] reason they’re showing up this way is theirs. Now, I need to take responsibility for my response or reaction to

Gissele: it.

And that I think, like you said, goes back to choice. What choices am I going to make? And that it has been in my journey as well. Like, you know, in, in my desire to be more loving and compassionate, my desire to understand what choices I have to make every day. And some days I don’t always get it right. And then I’m like, okay, what I’m, what choice am I going to make in the next moment?

Understanding full well that. The world I helped co create is my responsibility, right? The reason why we have all of these things in the world that are happening is because of choices we make. And so for me, I’m going to choose the most loving and compassionate choices or hope that I do. And when I mess up, I’m going to start over.

So that’s where. You know, surrendering, accepting, allowing [00:42:00] and making those one degree shifts as you suggest. I really also love very much that you included opportunities to go out with your dog for a walk.

A lot of people just want to read the book and go on, but the opportunity to stop, pause and reflect and look at these experiences differently, I think is really quite key. So thank you for that. Oh, you bet.

Michael: I want to touch on something real quick that you just brought up is starting over. So, here on this planet, we go to bed and we get up the next day, we have a chance every single day to start over.

And again, it doesn’t mean you do this massive thing. But maybe just this tiny thing, and it goes back to being, who am I being, who do I want to be today? I mean, none of us are going to probably get to, like, Gandhi or Mother Teresa status, and that’s okay, maybe some of you might. But we don’t have to, [00:43:00] I don’t want to be a Gandhi, I don’t want to be Mother Teresa, but can I be a little more like that, a little more loving and compassionate, no matter what?

Yeah, I

Gissele: can do that. And I think that was one of the things where, again, I go back to that one degree shift, because in one part of the book you talked about, like, when people are ready to change, and this has been my experience, when you are ready to change, your world completely changes. Like everything in your life changes in if you’re going from a place where you want to change and you haven’t yet made that choice.

It can feel scary to think that, you know, real relationships are going to change people. Some people are going to flow out of your life. New people are going to flow in out of your life. Everything might just completely, come apart so that it can come together. But if we can start to get comfortable with change, then we can start to take baby steps.

And then by the time you get to 50 steps [00:44:00] or a hundred steps, you will have made. 100 percent change. I think that was really, really powerful. So we’re coming to the end of the podcast. I was wondering if you could share with people where they can find you, where they can come work with you, where they can find the book, a little bit about more about you and about the work that you’re doing.

Michael: Oh, thank you. So I can be directly reached if someone just wants to email and ask a question at Michael at dogs and men. com. Www. dogsandmen. com goes to a link with a lot of resources my books in PDF form a lot of other shows I’ve been on, podcasts and radio shows. I’m creating an app, as we mentioned, so that’ll be app.

dogsandmen. com when that gets released. I’m really excited about that. The [00:45:00] work I do continues, right? So it’s not just me out there trying to help other people. I’m, I’m still on my journey and I’m still finding my way back to my path. And I’ve just been able to work with so many amazing men. I mean, from a special forces, retired sniper to an ice cream, an ice cream manufacturer, you know what I mean?

Just these other coaches. It’s just fantastic. The retreats that I, that I have going are just phenomenal. But this is, this is not easy work. This is not light work and it’s not for the faint of heart. So that’s why I wanted to create other resources for people to start to be able to get into this. My book is on Amazon also.

I’m working on two other books. I co authored another one, so I’m constantly creating because I’m finding more of me in that creation. I’m able to open and release more of those aspects. So yeah, phenomenal [00:46:00] journey.

Gissele: Yeah, amazing. Can you tell us a little bit more about the app before we go?

Michael: Yeah. So as you, you introduced it earlier was for guys to kick the tires or dip their toes in the water.

So there’s going to be. Initially for the entry level, free level, a lot of resources and some meditations or canine contemplations for you to do with your dog. 10 minute hits of, of like, what, really? Yeah, and then there’ll be a membership level with coaching available and other resources as well.

You know, I wanted, I just wanted people to wherever, if, if it resonates with them, be able to pick it up and go, oh, no kidding. I had no idea. So I want to spark curiosity. Right? That’s all I want to do is plant this little seed for folks. If it grows great, if not great, right? Maybe that’s not for them.

But if you can be a tiny [00:47:00] bit curious, as we’ve talked about a number of times in the show, that opens up everything, right? It gets you out of your, your stuckness and be like, my, my, yeah, your dog too. Just look at your dog right now. Yes. And that dog right there is trying to show you more.

Gissele: Definitely. Well, it it’s definitely going to enrich or has enriched my relationship with my dog for sure.

I have a lot more appreciation for the lessons

Thank you so much, Michael, for being on the show. Really appreciate it. Please go out and read let your dog lead, a beautiful, beautiful book on how to live a more fulfilling life. And please join us for another episode of the loving compassion podcast with me.

Bye.

Michael: Thank you so much, everyone. Thanks Giselle.

Gissele: Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. ​

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Transcript[00:00:00]

Gissele: Hello, and welcome to the love and compassion podcast with Giselle. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world. Don’t forget to click subscribe for more amazing content. On today’s podcast, we’ll be talking about the power of love and helping us heal after loss.

Today, we’re speaking with coach Lovemore McLaughlin, who decided to start living after losing her mother. she had numerous challenging moments in the restaurant business and decided to focus on helping people be more compassionate and loving towards themselves.

Today, she is a vibrant example of how to live your life with gratitude, joy, and love. Please join me in welcoming Coach

Lovemore: Lovemore. Welcome, welcome everyone who’s tuning in and Giselle, I always start with gratitude because it is so much who I am. So I just want to extend gratitude for this moment and thankfulness for you inviting me on and I [00:01:00] celebrate in this moment. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank

Gissele: you.

Thank you. Thank you. I was wondering if you could start by telling us a little bit about your story in how you actually ended up deciding to coach people on self love and

Lovemore: self compassion. Thank you. So the chapter of my story that I will share right now, because there’s so many chapters. Just before COVID, I just was this close to having like one of the biggest meltdown and I thankfully had the vacation that I’ve always wanted for 18 years.

Yes, I did say 18 years. I got a moment to catch myself. I got a moment to allow my brain to get to a spot where I could think for myself. Thankfully through R. E. S. T. and I, I knew that I needed a lifestyle change. I [00:02:00] knew that I had to take different actions. And I knew that I had to start seeing myself.

Because for 18 years, I saw everyone else. But I couldn’t see myself and I had to start giving myself attention. I decided to honor my late mother’s name. So hence I changed my name on all social media platform to love more. And literally Giselle, I said, you know what, with this beautiful legacy and name, let me.

Cultivate a love more lifestyle. And once I realized I was blooming so much to the point where people really could not keep up with the transformation, but it was a beautiful experience. I knew in my heart that moving forward, giving my age. My life has to be more purposeful and more meaningful. So I sat down with myself and [00:03:00] asked myself the question, What am I doing with the lessons, the legacy, and the experiences from my pain?

And I recall a mentor said to me, Do not lose. Do not waste your mother’s pain that is always etched in my, in my mind. Do not lose my mother’s pain. Do not lose, do not waste my pain. Every time I’m going through a battle, those are the words I hear in my mind. And I knew that I had to be that voice and vessel to share my experiences.

If it’s even for one woman, right, men as well, you know, we can’t forget or men as well. Even though my main target audience are female entrepreneurs or love more programs and experiences and my messages is not limited to women alone. Love is for everyone. [00:04:00] And it’s first the message of love, which I do in my personal and my brand as well.

So I wanted to share my voice with women, especially women who. Are where I was because it’s so easier for me to share because I was there. So that’s the short chapter of that story,

Gissele: Giselle. Thank you for sharing that. I was wondering if you could also share what your life looked like before your mom passed away.

And then like after because you were living a very different life, right? Like it was very It seemed really stressful. So I was wondering if you could

Lovemore: share. Absolutely. Before, before my mother passed, I wasn’t a communicator. And it was, it wasn’t like, Oh, you can do better. It was, I can really say that I wasn’t the best communicator.

I kept everything inside. And I recall my mom saying to me at nine, I’ll always worry about you because [00:05:00] you do not have a voice. I was I was voiceless. If something was bothering me, it was easier for me to just hold it in and I kept holding things in, holding things in. I mean, I was very close to exploding.

I wasn’t sleeping properly before COVID. I was getting two hours max sleep and I was so tired. Yeah, I was so tired when I would go into my bedroom. It was just when I came home from the kitchen, it was enough time to shower. And a shower for me was like the biggest blessing ever. It was how I rejuvenated myself.

And then I would just Just lie on the bed because I was too tired to sleep, but just to lie, to rest, to feel some sort, like, like I’m a human or something. And that was my life before, no sleep, always rushing, always rushing to have a conversation. I could not [00:06:00] stop. To pause, to breathe, to catch myself, and to be present with you, to lean in, to look in the eye, and just have that human human connection, interaction.

I did not know how to do that. I wasn’t sleeping, I wasn’t eating properly, I was taking care and feeding others so well, and I wasn’t nourishing my physical body and the rest of myself. No, after, after COVID and after the lifestyle change, I noticed the peace. I have to say that word, the first word that I have to tell you that I experienced, I experienced this peace and I call the joy, I call it joy, bliss, because it was so beautiful.

It’s beyond, it’s so beautiful, it’s so beyond me, it’s almost like I don’t even always have the right words, but it was blissful, it was peaceful. I started to be… Honest with myself, which in turn allowed me to communicate better. I became a [00:07:00] better communicator. I would reflect more. So it allows me to stay present and not bring things that doesn’t serve me into the next day or the future.

So I, I became, let me deal with things now, check it off, action it, not let it pile up because before everything would pile up. The good, the bad, things that I need to clear. Everything was piling, piling, piling, piling, piling. Then I was close to a point of exploding. And I did explode one morning. And I’m thankful that I got the opportunity to witness my own change.

It’s peaceful, it’s beautiful, it’s vibrant. I am so honest with myself. I’m more forgiving of myself and all these beautiful attributes allow me to be compassionate to others, to listen. Not to preach to others, but to listen, and my aim is just to [00:08:00] be there. I am the love that will stand beside you and just love you.

Someone else want to preach, you’re going to have to find someone else to preach to, because I, I’m not that person.

Gissele: Beautiful. Beautiful. The the food industry where you come from can sometimes be seen as a very highly stressful environment. And maybe not always the healthiest of environments in terms of the pressure that maybe chefs feel and people that working in the restaurant industry.

Can you share a little bit about what it was like working in that environment and how. Maybe the work that you’re doing as a chef now shifted

Lovemore: on. Yes, it was. There’s so many. There’s so many moving pieces. It’s a fast paced industry. And for me personally, I wasn’t taking the time. To step back, pause in the moment and to look in, like stand on a mountain and say, zoom in on your [00:09:00] life, Shereen, love more, zoom in and look, look, this is what you’re doing.

This is what’s happening. I wasn’t reflecting, I wasn’t pausing, I wasn’t asking myself and really saying to myself, okay, where do I want to be in five years, ten years? Not from, a lot of times we ask a question from a financial perspective. But not from a holistic perspective, what do I want my mindset to be?

What would I want my self care lifestyle to look like? What do I want my peace to look like? I never was asking any of those questions. So of course, if you’re not asking the question, if you’re not intentional about making change. You know, there’s a saying, nothing happens if nothing happens, nothing change if nothing changes, right?

So, I wasn’t even stopping, it was just like a constant cycle of go, more burnout, more stress, no self care, no taking the [00:10:00] moment to be present and to pause. And it kept going and going and it just kept building up and building up and building up and it was just not healthy. Whereas now… I check in on myself every single day before I open my bedroom door.

It’s a practice that helps me. It allows me to be consistent with being present with where I’m at, which in turn allows me to be the best me for me, my daughter, and my community. So it is a win win situation. I’m still learning. I’m still learning, I’m still growing, but it is, it is with intention, it is with care and learning to be gentle, give myself grace and be compassionate and forgiving.

Gissele: Beautiful. I love what you said about the holistic approach to life because you know, what you said was so spot on. I think people like, for example, if they’re [00:11:00] focusing on abundance, they’ll tend to focus on abundance, the financial abundance, but we’ll miss like the, the family abundance, the health abundance and all those pieces until things are out of balance, right?

Maybe they find the abundance, but then the other areas are lacking. And so creating an overall life, like an abundant life. I think it is really, really important. You mentioned that in your journey, you were able to tap into and find this amazing peace and joy. What helped you in particular to be able to tap into that joy?

Because your previous experience was one of, you know, not having a voice and being highly stressed and, you know, and, and then being able to tap into that many of my listeners would love to know how to tap into that for themselves. Absolutely.

Lovemore: Absolutely. It’s… It’s consistency with the right things that serve you.

So, this journey started in 2015. So, I became highly consistent with gratitude. [00:12:00] And even if I was having a challenging moment, I would sit and say, I get to. I get to, you know, bend and tie my shoelaces. I, I never miss the small things that sometimes we take for granted. I would see someone in a wheelchair.

I would extend compassion and then I’ll come home and I’ll pray and be thankful that I have my legs. I never missed the opportunity to say, I wake up and I get to see my daughter. I never missed the opportunity to turn on the tap. Every little thing that I do, I extend it to gratitude. And I say, I get to, I get to sit in this moment and have this conversation, everything I never miss.

So even through a painful and difficult moment. I always go back to gratitude and how I reframe the situation. I get to bloom more. I get to witness the lessons [00:13:00] in this experience. It’s not pretty at the moment. But I get to experience, you know, the beauty and the blessing and the lesson of knowing that I’m here, but I’m going to be on the other side, which is even more beautiful.

So gratitude is such a huge part. And the other thing that I do is I wake up to do all the things that I love. I love beautiful, vibrant colors. If I’m going to my part time assignments. Wherever it was city, I pack the stuff I love. I pack my love signs. The other thing that I do is my bedroom. Every corner of my bedroom is bright colors.

Yellow for sunshine. There is love. There’s hope messages. There’s art pieces with… So, we have to remember, most people sleep in a bedroom. We go to bed. We sleep in a bedroom, we wake up, we wake up in our bedroom. [00:14:00] What does our environment look like? Because a lot of times when we talk about feeding and consumption, we often limit that to the food we eat, which we have to eat to nourish ourselves.

But how are we nourishing our soul, which is our mind? How are we nourishing our spirit? How are we nourishing our energy? How are we nourishing our inner child? And I always. Say to myself, how am I nourishing my purpose because holistically, we have to be able to define who we are. That’s going to look different for everyone.

But when I was redefining who I am, I said, I am purpose. I am light. And I have to nourish my purpose and my light, because that is where we bloom the most. When we are meaningful and purposeful and really caring for purpose and the light that we are, we bloom. So it’s consistently. [00:15:00] living a life where I wake up and I give myself permission to do the things I love.

I got up this morning and I said to myself, I’m wearing the hat that I bought last week. I’m not going to let it sit in a drawer like we often do and not get up and dress up and feel good about ourselves. And marry that to the inner work that we’re doing and joining that with the physical things that it’s a beautiful marriage.

So these are some of the things that I do, Giselle. And it’s just, it has, it is, it has brought me so much peace. Sometimes I’m in awe of the peace I sit in or how quickly I get back to peace. And Giselle, I have to share that. Because we live in a world where peace is not something that is easy for some people to find.

And we are all on our own personal journey. And I often say, I want to share this before I pass it over back to you. I always say, we each come with [00:16:00] different wealth. You may have the wealth of faith in this season. I may have the wealth of smile in this season. Another person may have the wealth of encouraging words.

And what we need is to marry and join these different wealth so we can bloom and blossom more. We definitely need each other. And I want everyone to know that you have the unique wealth that can be a blessing. Even if you’re going through a difficulty or a storm, it doesn’t minimize the wealth. That is you.

So I just wanted to share that because sometimes I may need to borrow your wealth of faith or encouraging words just to be able to join mine and for me to bloom a little bit more. So I wanted to share that as well.

Gissele: Thank you. Thank you. I felt that you said so many amazing things. I think the first thing I want to comment on is the.

It adds up, right? So you were talking about being grateful for the little things. I don’t think [00:17:00] people realize that all those little things that you’re grateful for accumulate and adds up over time, right? Like you gain an awareness of how rich and abundant we really are and how rich and abundance, like it’s all around us, right?

And so I think we forget, we get so stuck on lack or what we think we don’t have that we, we miss all the things that we do have. The second thing I wanted to mention was really about, and thank you for mentioning like the fact that you love to you know, like dress up and dress up, you know, like feed your soul.

Cause that’s one of the things that attracted me to you, which is like your vibrant personality and your vibrancy and the sunflowers, which is one of my favorite flowers. Do you know that sunflowers are like the spiritual meaning of sunflowers is like faith in God. Oh, wow. Yeah, it’s actually one of my favorite flowers.

Yeah. So you were going

Lovemore: to comment. Yeah. So, so you see, we, we learn from each other. I’ve, I’ve always [00:18:00] been drawn to sunflower. And I noticed in the last, especially this year. I’ve been using a lot. Sometimes we may not know the meaning for something, but we know it serves us and do us well. But thank you for sharing.

So here we go to identifying what I just shared that we all come with different wealth. Here you are sharing to me that something I had no clue about. I, all I knew was to say this sunflower is too pretty, not to bask in every single day. And here you are sharing, which it now it makes so much sense because.

I’m so heavily. It’s it sits in my sits on my bed every day. I make my bed. What a beautiful thank you for sharing that because now it’s now it amplifies why my soul drawn to this sunflower. Look at this. I even came. I’m like, I bring the sunflower with me. I bring it all this love and light. Beautiful.

Thank you for sharing. Oh

Gissele: my goodness. And I love what you said about the bedroom too, about like, and it’s [00:19:00] so funny. Because there’s so many different environments. We focus so much on like the things that other people see, like our kitchen and our dining room and whatever, but you’re right. Like when we.

Go to bed. Right. And when we wake up, that’s what we’re waking up to. So how are we reflecting the joy that we want to experience? So I love that. I’m definitely going to take that as well as your gift to me in terms of like, how can I turn my, the places that I spend the most. And when I wake up and go to bed, how do I establish that kind of loving environment?

So I really, really love and appreciate that. Awesome. Sorry.

Lovemore: No, I said awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

Gissele: So can you share a little bit of you know, you, you mentioned the being able to forgive yourself what role has forgiveness played in your life and being able to help you be more loving and compassionate towards yourself and

Lovemore: others.

Oh, wow. The [00:20:00] forgiveness was one of the first. process that allowed me to start seeing myself and loving myself. I believe that forgiveness is a pathway to loving ourselves more. I just had to, you know, we have, we sometimes we set so many expectations on ourselves. I have to be this, I have to do this. And I realized that I was being so harsh and I really Realize that even with my, my chef experiences and journey, one thing that I didn’t share was the reason why I ended up in burnout because I didn’t see my value, which affected my pricing and Giselle, I had to learn to heal enough from that journey.

And the healing enough from that journey started with saying. I forgive you. I forgive you for the choices you make. I forgive you for not believing in yourself. I forgive you. I forgive you. So I had to learn to forgive myself enough [00:21:00] to start the journey of seeing myself. And forgiveness is almost like a beautiful floral just opening up.

And every time I forgive myself a little bit more, I saw that I was blooming more and I started to see the beautiful God in me. And the more I started to see the beautiful God in me, I was just like, I was just so encouraged to be me. So sometimes people are like, I can’t understand how come you’re so joyful.

I just started to forgive more, to see myself more, to understand when I look in the mirror I’m seeing God in me and I’m honoring his presence in me. And forgiveness, honestly, was one of the most impactful pathway to my journey of loving more. It allowed me to just like acknowledge where I’m at.

acknowledge the conversations that was not supporting my love pathway and saying, come on, I love more. Let’s deal with this. [00:22:00] So it’s, so it’s, I married forgiveness with self reflection. I would self reflect, I would write, I would say, this is where I’m at. And I would say, is this supporting my future? Is this supporting my purpose?

And when I said no, I’m like, hold on a second, honey, I have to do something about that. Then I would start the process of forgiveness, which is identifying, acknowledging, then slowly releasing. And I must say that it’s not a one day, five second job. It is a process. I am still healing. I’m still on the healing journey.

I must say that I’ve healed enough for a beautiful blossoming transformation, but I will not kid myself to think that they’re not small areas where I can still work on. That’s one thing I learned on my journey never to be so You know, never be too confident to think that, Oh, I’ve got it. I figured it out.

[00:23:00] I’ve learned so much. It’s unlimited. The journey of continuous blooming, it is unlimited. And that’s one thing that I wanted to share. I’m still healing baby, but I’m healing continuously and forgiving myself continuously, which makes it a lifestyle for me. So I wanted to share that as well,

Gissele: Giselle. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. And it’s so true. It’s a journey, isn’t it? It’s a journey of loving ourselves and forgiving ourselves and seeing what you said is. God within us, right? And so what helped you see that? What’s up? You see that connection because I think you know, the majority of people at times feel like, oh, you know, God is over here.

It’s a being outside of us. And it’s like kind of this thing there and I’m here and I’m not worthy of God as we were taught in religion, right? What helped you see the

Lovemore: God within? I must say that. You asked some really powerful questions, and this is one of them. Very, very, [00:24:00] I’m truly, truly loving the questions you’re asking them.

Loving the experience right here, right now. This started, this whole The God in Me started I don’t, I want to get the time correctly. Let’s see. Probably three, maybe four years ago, I was in my bedroom on a Sunday morning, and I was learning to be comfortable with who I am. And I’ve always loved to smile, but a part of me knew inside I was holding back.

And one morning I heard a soft voice. Never be afraid of the smile in you. It’s my smile in you. And I never forgot that moment. I remember I leaped out of bed. And that’s when I had the confidence to look in the mirror. I knew that I was the vessel housing this amazing being I call God. Because we each have our own different perspective.[00:25:00]

It’s so easy for me to look in the mirror. Because when I look in the mirror, I’m like, This is God in me. The smile in me, the posture in me, but it’s just housing this vessel called love more and it makes it so much easier for me when I walk in a room, the confidence, it comes naturally because I’m like, Lord, you guide my stuff.

You guide my smile and the smile, the smile came down with meaning and purpose. Like I’ve always had a smile, but the smile now is like, it has such a sunflower effect. Because I’m like, God. This is you in me. This is the gift that you gave me. I’m not going to hold back on it. This is you and me. When you embrace the God in you, amazing, beautiful things happen.

And as I’m speaking, thank you so much for allowing me to share because. Sometimes we go [00:26:00] through the journey and we witness it, but when you speak it, oh my goodness, I’m in like goosebumps over here because I don’t, I don’t even know if I’ve shared that with anyone else, but I remember it was a Sunday morning and I remember I leaked out of bed.

Because once you say, Hey God, I see you in me, whenever I create with my hand Giselle, I said, Oh my goodness, God, you’re so good. Look at what you create, right? I will, if I, if I, if I’m creating, cause you know, I love florals and I love to, you know, still create stuff and make things beautiful and vibrant.

Every time I create, I step, I step back and I don’t say, Oh my gosh, I’m so great. I said, Oh my goodness, God, look at your hands in me. Look at what your hands created through me. It’s a whole different level. Of appreciation. When you start to reframe things, you start to see how beautiful you are because you see a being inside you that is beautiful [00:27:00] and then you accept that beauty.

It’s a game changer for me. It works for me and I’m sticking with it. Yeah.

Gissele: Yeah. Oh, I’m so glad you share that story. What a beautiful story. I feel like I am on my journey as well is, is seeing the divinity within myself and then being able to see the divinity in other people.

It was when I started to accept. That, oh, you know, I am the vessel of God and then it enables me to see God and other people, right? So how has your journey in terms of seeing God within you helped you see the

Lovemore: divinity in others? Oh, wow. This conversation is getting, oh my goodness.

I wish I could just interview you. I feel like I want to have a chat. Thanks. It’s, it definitely, if I can’t see God in me and in my footsteps, it makes it so much difficult to see the God in others. So it starts with a new journey. I have to see him and know that [00:28:00] he’s, he’s a part of me, especially when I allow him to just, Be the blooming vessel and guiding light in my life.

So the more I see him in me, and the more I am relying on him in my daily path, I can see him in you. I can see, now your smile is not just a smile. Now your smile creates this beautiful burst of energy, which we’re both speaking virtually. But for some reason I feel your presence because my energy is being hugged.

So being able to see him for myself personally, it allows me to see you a little bit, see him more fully in you. So when I’m looking at you, I’m seeing your smile and I’m witnessing his blink in your eyes and you’re tilting your head. I’m noticing all of that. And it’s such a [00:29:00] beautiful thing, but what’s most powerful is the energy and feeling.

Energy never lies. It’s true. And it’s, you know, it’s this peace and beautiful abundance and I feel so hugged and you’re speaking from such a pure place. I can feel it. Your questions are so divine. This is such a beautiful, you know, such a beautiful moment. You’re going to make me weep. This is, this is I have to tell you, I these conversations are watering my soul.

Like, thank you for, this is more than a podcast. This is just an experience. It is an experience. Thank

Gissele: you. Thank you. Thank you. I was gonna ask about you know what you were saying and being able to see the divinity in one another. I think it really does help us shift away [00:30:00] from the story of being a victim, right?

Because often when we don’t see the divinity within ourselves, we see ourselves Giselle affected by other people’s behavior the more that we tap into that divinity, the more that we see kind of unlimitedness how has seeing the, the, the, the God within you helped you shift away from some of the, the love more focused, like, you know, cause sometimes we’re so body focused.

Yeah. Or self-focused, not that, I mean, self-love is important. So it, it’s not that that narcissistic focus I’m talking about. Sometimes we get so focused on the smallness of this body or the limit of this body that we sort of forget how divine we are. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Lovemore: Absolutely. What’s coming up for me is I. I always just speak from my heart and draw reference. I remember I was going through a difficult time and a [00:31:00] sister of mine said, God is never overwhelmed. He’s never lost. Yeah. God is never overwhelmed. He’s never lost a battle. So it speaks to the grandiose, the unlimitedness of the Lord.

And whenever I’m going through a storm. I always say God is never overwhelmed. And there’s a song by Torren Wells. He’s not, he’s never lost a battle. And what that does for me is it sets, it sets the precedence. It’s like, you know, it’s, it’s God in God first. He’s my creator. He’s unlimited, infinite. You know, it’s just like one thing I always learned.

I learned as well to change. I, you’ll never hear me say again, the sky’s the limit. I do not use that word. God is, I, you know, we learned, we learned that we learned that growing up as children, right. And then we take it into our adult. And then when I [00:32:00] met God, I said, God, you are my limit. He is my limit, not the sky.

He created the sky. So it is, it’s again, it’s always about perspective. And even though we don’t fully understand him because we never created him, he created us. I knew that there’s this unlimited abundance. It’s infinite. It’s above our own understanding. Like words can’t even fully describe him. We only know him this much, right?

But his Being in his world is beyond us. Sometimes it just makes my head spin. But seeing and knowing God is never overwhelmed. He’s never lost a battle. That’s the mindset I use. And honestly, sometimes I have to sit with myself and just say that. Because sometimes the situation is so overwhelming. You just need that reminder, like, who is your source?[00:33:00]

Remember there’s source and there’s resource. So it’s always going back to the facts and the truth. And we all, as I said, we all have different beliefs, but my truth is the Lord. My truth is God. He is. Unlimited? He’s unlimited, like he created this world and I have to remember that God is unlimited. That’s the source I want to tap into, not into my unlimited belief, because sometimes our belief is unlimited, but God is.

You know, ever, ever, ever keep on going always promising. So those are my thoughts.

Gissele: Yeah, thank you. I wanted to ask some questions that I know my listeners are going to ask. some of the people that I know and some of the listeners have maybe in the past put faith in God and then feel like there was no reply or there was no, like, you know, their miracle didn’t happen or they lost someone, especially during COVID.

COVID was a really [00:34:00] challenging time for a lot of people.

What do you say to those people that say, well, maybe God shows up for you, but he didn’t show up for me when I needed him, whatever time.

Lovemore: Yeah, yes, Giselle, I’m just going to be totally honest. I’ve had someone who lost their child and she was, you know. Not understanding. I’m gonna be honest with you in a situation like that.

I do not preach I do not say because sometimes I myself as the Lord sometimes I’m driving. I’m talking to the Lord. I’m like Lord I don’t know. I do not understand this like what’s happening here. I have to Remind myself. I’m beyond the full understanding so whenever if someone comes to me I’m going to try to figure out where they are mentally.

Are they ready for, what conversation are they ready for? They may not be ready for, they may just want to be held. I don’t know if [00:35:00] you know this song by Casting Crown, Just Be Held, I’ll hold that person. What do you want to say? I’ll listen, but I may not respond in the moment because the response may not be the right time.

So Giselle, I say this to say that. Sometimes if someone comes to me with a God conversation and I feel like I don’t even have the answer right now, I’ll just say, you know what, what would you like to share? I’m here to listen. I’ll, you know, I’m a huggy person. I’ll hug and I’ll hold them. If there’s a moment where I feel as if I can share from where I’m coming from at another time, I will, you know, I will do that.

But if someone is going through the most difficult loss in the freshness of that, I will hold back on. Saying what I want to say, because it may not be the right time. And to be quite honest, I may not even have the answer. Someone comes to say, why did the Lord take my son? And why did the Lord, why did I go through [00:36:00] cancer?

Why am I going to think that I have the answer for that? I, I, I’ll probably say, you know what? I, I’m here for you. How can I support you? What are the things can I do to make you feel better? Those are the questions I would ask. I’m not going to try to answer a God question because I’m over here with my own God questions like the Lord, why, but I often pray and like, Lord, give me the strength to go through what you’re taking me through and give me the mindset and the wisdom to understand that this is preparation and give me that strong conviction to know that I’m getting through.

to a much more beautiful place, even though my eyes can’t see it. Lord, let me trust in you. Giselle, it’s not an easy, easy journey. I don’t want to tell anyone that it’s so easy. The more you see the Lord work [00:37:00] ways, and I sit and I remember how far I’m coming, how it was difficult for me to hold a conversation.

And now here I am, I have enough strength in him and confidence in him, I can walk in a room, I can hold my head up high, and I can look you in the eyes and not hold my head down. So, we have to have more personal evidence that he has come through for us, and he’s going to continue to come through for us.

So, if someone wants to ask us to wrap up, I will identify where they’re at, maybe they just need to be held. out for a long time. No preaching. I love you. You know, love has a way of just pouring into the cracks and the emptiness and the loneliness. And that’s why I chose love more. There were people that loved on me.

It was such a great experience. I [00:38:00] promised myself, I am going to love forward this love because it’s so good. So love has a way of just filling in the pieces and the cracks, and it’s almost like you’re pouring into an empty vessel. Love has a way of just expanding and filling those empty places. So I would love over preaching.

I would listen over a lecture and I would hug until. There’s a time to have a conversation, but it would be a conversation that’s going to put that person in a better frame of mind. So until I feel like I can have that conversation from my understanding and where I’m at of the Lord, I probably would not say anything.

I would just hug, listen, embrace, and hug some more. And when the person’s ready for a little bit more, maybe I even suggest someone they can talk to that has. [00:39:00] More knowledge of the Lord than I do because we have to know that we don’t know everything and they’re experts and they’re people who know a little bit more than myself in certain areas.

I may just say, you know what, let me, let me suggest someone that I believe that is a perfect person, or let me suggest someone who’s gone through your journey and know there are 10 years over into that experience. Maybe their 10 years getting here is better. So maybe it’s just providing the resources.

Maybe it’s just going to the source for me, who is the Lord and say, Lord, she’s asking me questions and I have no idea. I don’t want to trigger her. I want to love on her. Can you guide me through? So that would be my response. I’m not sure if that makes sense, but that would be my response to that. Yeah.

Gissele: Yeah. What a beautiful response. And, you know, a lot of things came up for me. The first one is, you know it’s the place [00:40:00] of non judgment. Right. Yes. Like you’re, you’re willing to witness their divinity. You’re willing to in, in love is God or source, right? I think you, you’re extending love, you’re extending God.

So for me, I think that’s the best thing that you can do is just be for, be there for someone, hold them and love them. And love has such a transformative power. I’ve experienced it myself with people that sometimes if you just love them. Like it has a transformative thing. You don’t even have to do anything.

It’s just an extension of love that people either, either they’ll align to it and accept it, or they’re just kind of like, Oh, too much for me. See ya. And so, so love has this kind of transformative way. It comes from a place of nonjudgment. That’s true compassion. It’s this nonjudgment, this allowing to honoring that person’s emotions and experiences and acknowledging that that’s what they’re going through.

And you’re right, we have such a limited perspective from our mind, right? [00:41:00] Like we only see this much we don’t see, because if we’re truly the divinity within us, then we’re unlimited, there is no death, there’s just transition. But those conversations are not the time to be having when somebody is in the middle of grief.

And so knowing Instead of thinking about what this person, what conversation should be having, what do you need in this moment and can I be a vessel for it? You mentioned faith, which can be really challenging when things where, you know, when things take time or when, you know, you don’t see it out there.

What keeps you in your faith in your most

Lovemore: challenging moments? Giselle, sometimes I have to borrow faith from others. which is something that I’ve learned. I’ve learned that I don’t have to be strong all the time. I’ve learned that, as I said earlier, we all come, we all come with different wealth. [00:42:00] And if I’m feeling like I need faith and I do not have enough, Trust me, I’m going to call someone, I’m going to borrow their faith, because sometimes you just need to be in the presence or just have a conversation with someone who has what you need.

I’m okay borrowing the faith. I’m okay borrowing. I had to learn. That I’m okay borrowing your hope when I am not so hopeful. And sometimes we don’t even have to have a conversation. I could just like scroll on your page and I see you sitting in a fountain of hope. And I sit there enough and you just feel a little bit better.

So we have to just learn to be wise and intentional. And know who has what we have, what we need, I should say. And listen, I have borrowed people faith, I have gone in and sat down with my pastor, and when I, when I leave, I’m just like, whoop! You just, you, you, [00:43:00] sometimes all we need is just to sit in the presence of the right person, because remember, God is with us, right?

And God knows that I’m, I’m, I’m going to my pastor. You know, to have a conversation, he’s going to just like pour into the pot to make sure he has the right position, the right words. So I borrow from others and one of the, one of my most sacred places where I feel the Lord the most is by the lake and I want to share this when I go to the lake or I’m out in nature and I hear the birds chirping and I look up at the sky and I see I see the unlimitedness of God.

I see that He’s just ever so giving. And when I go to the lake, I don’t know the signs behind it, beside it, in it, but it’s almost like the water washes my, my mind. It’s almost like the water is a sponge. [00:44:00] And it’s like, come on. Whenever, whenever I leave, it’s almost like you took a shower. Like the longest shower, you feel squeaky clean, that’s helped me with my faith because the Lord connects with me there and he takes away my concerns.

So I always say, you know what, that’s where I go to cast my cares. Anytime I have a cast in my care situation, I go to the lake first. And if I need some extra support. Then I’m like, who is the person I need to reach out for this? Who is the, who is the, who has the faith right now in this season? And who can speak to me from a place of love?

I, I, when I’m going through a storm, Giselle, I do not, I do not want a lecture. Mm-hmm. wait until I’ve come through a certain position for you to [00:45:00] lecture me if I need lecturing. Mm-hmm. But whenever I am fragile and my faith is a little bit low, A lecture is going to break me even more because I know who I am.

So I run to the league and then I have, I call them my Pelotons. I will just look at my Peloton list, see who has the, who has the capacity to pour into me. Because I want to be poured to from a place of love. And then I just borrow. It’s okay to borrow. I’ve borrowed so much, but it allows me to bloom because I know that someone is going to come and borrow from me too.

So we, it’s okay to borrow. It’s okay to give. It’s okay to, to share. It’s a whole part of the, the love journey. So whenever my faith is low, I have no hesitation to borrow enough until I can run to the lake and go gather some more. Yeah.

Gissele: Wow. That’s very powerful. Because you are basically. Acknowledging to yourself what you need in the moment.

And then you’re [00:46:00] saying, you know, you talked about source and resource, right? Like how, how do I get, how am I able to tap into that divinity, that, that faith, that love and being able to support each other through this journey. Isn’t that what it’s about? Like, if not, we probably would have incarnated here just by ourselves.

So I think we’re all here to help each other, to, to love each other, to grow. And to kind of help each other resource, because the more you get from other people, the more you have to give, which is absolutely beautiful. Yeah. And, you know, you speaking of nature I will say, you know, there’s, there’s so much you know, like there’s on the one hand, there’s that regenerative power that comes from nature.

There’s that, that. You know, unlimited ness. And then there are these genuine fears of what we’re doing to nature and how much we’ve taken away and continue to do. And so for me, this conversation was yet again, an important reminder of how important [00:47:00] that aspect of us is that that divinity and nature and how important it is to to protect it and take care of it.

Wonderful. Yeah. I was wondering if I’m just gonna, so this is kind of my A couple more questions. The first one is as part of this kind of new season of our podcast, I’m asking all of my guests to tell me what they think Unconditional Love is.

Lovemore: Wow.

Unconditional Love is preparing my mind, my heart, and my soul to sit in this, in this moment. And if there’s… If I see that there’s judgment coming up in this moment because I just wanted to stay present, I acknowledge that and I deal with it throughout the day. I either, you know, Lord, I please, I [00:48:00] ask you for forgiveness.

We don’t want to kid ourselves and say that unconditional love is so easy. It is not easy. It is, for me, it is the mindset, it is the practice that the more I practice, To see you, to love you without conditions, the easier and the closer I’m going to get to that part, you know, just like saying, I will never tell someone I’m fully healed.

Because that option and possibility is so on, you know, it’s unlimited and there’s always like more healing and more healing. So unconditional love for me is having that mindset that I’m going to catch myself and be honest. So it’s honesty. It’s being honest with myself to say. I’m judging you because my heart is going to speak the truth.

Unconditional love is connecting to my [00:49:00] heart and having my heart lead and say, Love more, your mind is judging her and your heart is saying, is telling you that you’re judging her. So unconditional love is being honest with myself, is catching myself, and it’s the action. We can’t say we’re going to practice unconditional love and I don’t go home tonight before I go to bed and say, Lord.

You know, I was judging Giselle all, all this time. I thought she was, she was this and that and look how beautiful she is. I’m going, even if I don’t tell you Giselle, I have to have that honesty. This is why I sit in a lot of peace. Because every night I look into my day, Lord, I missed the opportunity to be kind to Giselle today.

Forgive me. And not, I’m not going to ask for forgiveness a hundred times and not take some action to say, I need to do work on that. So Unconditional Love is catching ourselves, being honest with ourselves, doing to work to ensure that [00:50:00] we are truly moving forward more and more and more to loving. without the condition.

So I don’t know if there’s any human on this earth who can say I totally love without conditions. But what I would love to hear and say is I am being mindful, I catch myself, and I’m committed to learning and serving and learning more because it’s a journey. It is the journey.

And I say to myself, I want to be a better person because God is love, God forgives, God doesn’t judge, and I just want to, Lord, I want to be more like you.

If you really, if we really can be honest with ourselves and say, I’m loving without conditions. It’s not always easy, but it’s been intentional and I’m going to commit to this. I’m going to catch myself when I find that I did not love you today with, you know, without conditions. It is the me thing. [00:51:00] It’s me from the perspective of let me see where I’m at.

Thanks. And it’s the practicing, it is getting better, and it’s focusing on the love that the Lord exudes, and wanting to be more like Him. That’s my answer, and I stick with it.

Gissele: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s so powerful. The willingness is, is huge. I think people underestimate what willingness is.

That’s a beautiful way to answer that question. The last question is sharing more about you. Tell where people can find you where they can come work with you. Tell us about your website, please. Go

Lovemore: ahead. Oh, awesome. Well I must say again, thank you so much. This has just been such a beautiful, rich conversation and just really setting me up for a more winning week.

I just love the conversations. You can find me courtesy of my website, [00:52:00] lovemorelifestyle. ca. I’m on Instagram daily and on my stories daily for Instagram. So that’s lovemorelifestyle. ca. Style coaching. I’m also on Facebook. Love more Sharon McLaughlin, or if you find any one of those, you can reach out to me and then I can remind you as well, where all the places to make it easier for you, wherever you are in this beautiful globe.

Thank you for tuning, tuning in and listening to Giselle and I, and I do hope that you connect with us. Let us know, where are you on, on your journey? I, I, Giselle, I wanted to, this is what I want to share. I am just here to share my journey, my experiences. I’m here to connect, connect to the wealth that others bring.

And I want us to do this. I want us to come together and I want us to realize how much we need each other. So what I do is… [00:53:00] Over and beyond coaching is I have a passion for bringing in community together. I have a passion for reminding others that you are a leader in the uniqueness that God has created you to be.

And no one can take that away from you. So I want to encourage leaders to say stand up because you have a light, you have purpose. And it’s more and above. coaching package. It’s about bringing community together. It’s about sharing our light and love and it’s encouraging others. Let love be your GPS. So When you’re ready, if you’re ready, even if you’re not ready and you think, you know what, let me just follow this path, you can connect with both of us because we are love hearted and we are practicing love, learning love, and wanting to get more and more into that part where we’re practicing love with all conditions.

And remember, it’s a lifestyle. So

Gissele: thank you so, [00:54:00] so much. And thank you everyone for tuning in to another episode of the loving compassion podcast, which is so bye.

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Transcript[00:00:00]

Gissele: hello and welcome to the love and compassion podcast, Giselle. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world. Don’t forget to like it, subscribe for more amazing content on today’s podcast. We’ll be talking about creating a magical life.

Our guest is 11 time bestselling author and award winner, Diana Wentworth. She is well known as the coauthor

of the two chicken soup for the soul books. The film rights to her romantic memoir, Send Me Someone, were purchased by Lifetime Network. She and her late husband founded the Inside Edge, a weekly breakfast forum in Southern California which founded many celebrated authors and speakers of today. Diana is a sought after international keynote speaker and loves to support her clients.

She is also the host of Women’s Circle and is publishing her latest book, Expect Magic, which is coming out in 2024. Please join me in [00:01:00] welcoming Diana Wentworth. Hi, Diana.

Diana: Hi, I’m so happy to be with you. Yes.

Gissele: Thank you so much for agreeing to be on the show. I’m so excited to talk to you. You’ve lived such an extraordinary life thus far, obviously not done yet, so you’ve still got more extraordinary to go.

Right. I was wondering if you could tell our listeners a little bit about how you got to this extraordinary life. Like how, what were your beginnings like? How,

Diana: what led you? Oh my gosh. Oh, my gosh, what a life. You know, there’s a joke on Facebook about sliding in at the end of your life with champagne and saying, it’s kind of been that way with me.

Honestly, I’ve just I am just really so, so grateful. All sorts of magic has happened in my life. So much serendipity. So many magical meetings. They’re just completely unexplainable. So I, I guess I should say that I was widowed [00:02:00] two years ago for the second time. So I’m reinventing my life right now with an even more daring encore.

to tell you the truth. This Saturday the Women Gone Wild Wealth Edition is going to be launched. And so I’m going to be doing a 10 minute, what they call a She Talk, which is for the women veterans who have the highest suicide rate, I, I think, of all of the, the veterans. And from that, from this vantage point, I’m really thinking a lot about wealth, because this is the wealth edition that’s coming out.

And there are basically two kinds of wealth. Wealth that fills up your bank account, and wealth that fills up your heart. And if you have the first and not the second, you’re not truly wealthy. You’re just… solvent. So I, I, what I love to talk about is heart filled wealth, which is often followed by [00:03:00] abundance of all kinds.

And so I’m just a living example of how magic can flow into the life, your life, like the times that But I dated Elvis, and at the time when I accidentally kind of became the first co author in the Chicken Soup for the Soul series, I was there when Jack and Mark were brainstorming their concept, it was, they had been turned down by almost every publisher in the world for the Chicken Soup for the Soul series, and everybody thought it was a cookbook, and I you I had actually written six cookbooks, one of which had one cookbook of the year, and so their publisher said, well, we have to have a cookbook.

So that’s what brought that in. And that made that the 3rd book in the series. So it had all sorts of recipes because not not all chicken recipes either. It was really because people come together around the table when they’re traveling, or they meet serendipitously and then there are [00:04:00] stories associated with that.

So that was. Yeah. So much fun. And then I was part I was one of the ambassadors that went into the Soviet Union at the height of the cold war and helped begin a dialogue between American and Russian people. And, and that basically changed my life forever because. My husband Paul and I said, you know, wait a minute, things are happening here.

People are sharing resources and people are supporting each other and enthusiastic for each other. There are all these wonderful leaders from all over the world on the trip. And we came back to the food world and started the Inside Edge, which took off like a rocket and We hosted speakers for over 37 years from all over the world, and some people walked in and just joined like Louise Hay had never written a book and, and [00:05:00] Dr.

Susan Jeffers. I used to give these parties that you had to show up as who you were going to be in five years. And Susan Jeffress showed up in a limousine and got out in a formal gown and said that she’d just returned from her third New York Times bestseller tour. And she actually pulled that off.

She wrote a book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway, and wrote two more books in those five years. So Jack Canfield said recently that he stole that idea and has done that for the closing of every training he’s done ever since. Oh, wow. Had that futuristic party. So, I, I feel that, you know, magic has played a role in all those pivotal moments just the serendipity, I I was engaged when I was in college to an extremely wealthy man, and I just had this sudden knowing that he was attracted to me because I was so decorative.

But [00:06:00] he didn’t really know the real me and I, I broke that engagement. I knew that I would meet the right person. I just always knew I would have this wonderful soulmate. And I went on a trip to Hong Kong, had a sudden knowing that I needed to be down in the lobby in a certain place. So I threw on a really beautiful dress and went down and stood in the lobby and out of the elevator walked Paul Von Wellenatz, who was my.

My soulmate and my husband for 25 years and I’m just yacking away here. Is this? No, no, this

Gissele: is perfect. Yeah, this is perfect. I do have a number of questions though. So, so what do you think contributed to your allowing them your magical life to flow through you? Do you think it’s predetermined or do you feel like there are some things that people are doing or not doing to allow the magic in their lives?

Diana: Well, I think that’s a [00:07:00] really key question. Because I think that we’ve all had inklings. We’ve all had coincidences and so on, but things showed up in my life. So amazingly that I began to trust it and I really began to ask. all the time. I, whenever, I mean, there were times when, when a careers fell apart and I would just be pacing and saying, tell me what to do.

And then I’d have this sudden insight. So that’s how we moved from the cooking world into the inside edge. I had a, I had a sudden picture of a human potential organization and everybody was really excited that we created it and everything. But I mean, it came to me like a window opened, you know, and then closed.

And I think the fact that I trusted that has made all the difference pressure. Yeah. I think so.

Gissele: So how do you cause I know this is going [00:08:00] to be a question that my listener is going to want to know, how do you manage the difficult times when you can’t hear that guidance or when you are struggling with the fear?

Because sometimes following that intuition takes a lot of courage, right?

Diana: Yes, I think it’s it takes courage. And I think when you become very, very centered, and you have no idea what to do, everybody’s saying that, you know, it’s logical to do this or that, but there’s something inside of you that’s saying, No, no, no, I need to follow my heart.

I think that is. So absolutely key and I think that scientists are proving all of this right now that they’re, they are saying, you know, that there is the physicists are saying that there’s this quantum field. And it contains all that is, [00:09:00] and so the fact that I’ve been shown a critical path, I think always comes from my, my knowing and my trust to ask and listen.

I think we have to become very still. And we, you know, I’ve been a meditator for 50 years and I use a product called new calm, which it takes me into a kind of a flow state where I feel that I can much more easily access the communication. The physicists are proving that we’re much more connected to each other and to all that is.

And this field is the divinity that includes absolutely everything. From our communication with our departed loved ones, to the new web telescope that reveals the birth of the stars. And so this is all moving lifting… connection from speculation to proven science, [00:10:00] and I think that I’ve just always kind of known that I’ve known that, especially if I’m asking very intently very fiercely.

Or an answer and I’m pacing back and forth. There’s something about that vibration or that frequency that brings insights and they happen very quickly around me. People who know me well know that everything changes just on a dime all the time, but it’s always a step forward. You know, there’s a stepping stone that just kind of shows up or a person or an invitation like being with you today.

Who knows where we come from?

Gissele: Yeah. So have you ever had an experience where the guidance you receive like you doubted like that you had or that the circumstances were playing out in a way that you kind of were wondering, Oh, is this or did you always just have the trust.

Diana: Well, I’ve always trusted, but I think what’s happening right now in my life is the [00:11:00] most fascinating thing, because back in when I was 30 years old a lawsuit that my father was involved in, and he had just died, wiped us, wiped the family out financially.

And I had no idea what to do. And I remember, I remember pacing the floor and saying, tell me, tell me what to do. And I heard the words voluntary simplicity. And that was really, I knew that obviously voluntary simplicity was a great thing to do. I’ve never done it. I went ahead and we had our career, but now that I’m 82 and I’m living in the desert where it’s going to be 100 degrees for the next 4 months.

Wow. And I’ve been widowed, you know, so I’m alone. I, I, I’m taking that voluntary [00:12:00] simplicity idea and I’m going to run with it and I’ve already been invited to some beautiful teaching establishments. So I’m selling everything I have. I’m giving away everything that I have selling my condo and I’m just following and knowing that by simplifying my life so that it’s just.

Sacred and beautiful and not cluttered with all this stuff that people gather so much stuff and then there’s slaves to it, you know, so I’m going to move into voluntary simplicity now and it’s wonderful because nobody’s saying, oh, Diana, you’re making a mistake, you know, everybody’s saying, yes. And so I find that invitations are flowing in and people want me to teach this and that.

And I’m certified in several kinds of yoga and and all kinds of other writing techniques. I’ve done a lot of writing seminars for people all over the world. [00:13:00] So that’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to go out and I’m going on the road. It’s sort of a road trip to surrender is what I call it.

Gissele: And surrender is so important.

I just want to go back to something that you had mentioned before, which is. You didn’t take the advice until much later. You think that we can always. Like, if we don’t follow the advice that we always have the potential to get back on track to what our original plan was or what the guidance

Diana: is, I think this advice about voluntary simplicity was so pure and so good for any phase of life.

And I think if I had followed it more that things would have been a little bit different. I got distracted, you know, by the success and, you know, things and having stuff and a nice, you know, really nice cars and things like that. I have always paid a lot of attention to my heart [00:14:00] path and to what I call being in essence instead of being an ego.

I think I would have followed that path a little more purely. I don’t know what difference it would have made. It might have made a financial difference or even some kind of a sacred difference. But I know that now that that is key information for me. That’s key advice and it feels so right. You know, I think that’s the thing that, and it does to other people too.

I was just talking to a wonderful man yesterday for an hour who’s extremely wealthy and has, you know, a warehouse of his art collection and he’s saying, Oh, I want to do this. I need to do this. It’s just ringing true with people, especially in the crazy times that we’re in right now. It feels good. It feels right.

It’s

Gissele: so interesting. One of the things that I’ve learned in my life has been that all of that stuff has energy attached to it, right? And so you can be kind of [00:15:00] overwhelmed by the amount of stuff that you have, because that’s all just kind of energy. And so it must be something so liberating to be able to let go of all of these.

This energy, this identity, these old stories, right? To really wipe the canvas clean so that you can say, okay, who am I going to be now? Right? Exactly. It does seem like such a great adventure.

Diana: Oh, it is. It’s just, I, I’m just lit up with it. And for several months, I was kind of dragging around thinking, gosh, you know, here I am in the desert.

I don’t know that many people here. I never really created much of a community. And then all of a sudden I began getting ideas and, and signs, you know, people were saying to me, Oh, what are you going to do next Diana? And I, I do these wisdom circles with women all over the world where we, it’s a nine month process.

We have some three month ones coming up, but it’s a nine month process. It’s like conception and birth, where [00:16:00] we decide that we are going to create some kind of a legacy project in our life. Most of these women are women of mastery. They’ve already created something great in their life, but they want, they want to do something that really represents what their life has meant.

And We have such fabulous bonding and deep connections, and people are really, really wondering and exploring what their path, their ideal path could be right now. So they inspire me. You know, there’s just all sorts of them that are doing tremendous things, and we are kind of sounding boards for each other, and I love this kind of conversation.

Gissele: you talked about the quantum getting our vibration to a really high level is really important for us to aligning with our dreams and it is so much more helpful when you do that in a community with people, right?

Because they can help you, we can help each other get there. Right? [00:17:00]

Diana: That’s the best thing of all. That’s what I’ve always loved. I had, I often say that I think our core wound is really key to, it’s a sign of what we can do with our life. I was sent away to boarding school at the age of eight. all by myself.

My brother went to a separate school and we were only three miles from home. And it was profoundly lonely because this boarding school didn’t have anybody in the lower school grades, just me and my own wing, you know? So this core loneliness made me really yearn for and care about having soul companions.

you know, people that were true family, a family of choice. And I think that’s why I love cooking so much, because I could invite people in and watch them connect around the table and create community. And then when [00:18:00] that evolved into the inside edge, which became such a catalyst for connection that all came out of that loneliness that I experienced.

So, I mean, we can let those things destroy us or we can find the gift, you know,

Gissele: yeah. And you’re talking about alchemy, right? You’re alchemizing really difficult moments into pure gold or into something that could really be beneficial in, you know but so often we get stuck in those stories, right?

Those identities of like, I’m the victim, this happened. Things have happened to all of us, right? And so how is it that we can then alchemize those experiences into

Diana: amazing? Well, I love that word alchemy and I’m glad you’re using that. You know, it’s exactly where is the gold in this experience? How did it open my heart?

How did it? Introduce me to things I would never have learned otherwise,

Gissele: or people. And I want to give another example where you alchemize something. I had read your [00:19:00] book

Diana: Love your heart.

Gissele: And you raise a really important issue, which is women who have heart issues, right? And that’s not often talked about. So can you tell me a little bit about how that challenging. Experience led you to sort of do that sort of work for that is really

Diana: helpful for women. Yeah, well, I was I had a sudden heart attack in 09.

I wasn’t expecting it at all. Luckily, I got to the hospital really fast, and they put in three long stents, so I didn’t need, you know, open heart surgery. If it had happened two weeks later, I would have been on a cruise ship in, in Ephesus in Turkey. So I wouldn’t even be talking to you now about this, but…

It made me very soulful. It made me really… It was a wake up call, I think. And they told me that I needed to walk every day. And being someone who loves [00:20:00] multitasking, I decided that I would grab a poem. I’ve always loved poetry because it can express things that are inexpressible. And so every week I would take a new poem on my walk, and I would, as I walked along, there was something about the rhythm of being outdoors, and just, and the words just went into my bones.

And I’d love to recite one for you. Can I recite a poem? Yes, please. There was the first one that I memorized, and it’s the opening of my new book, Expect Magic. So it’s the, the, Epigraph, I think they call it, of the of the book. And it’s by Derek Wolcott, and it’s called Love After Love. The time will come when you will greet yourself arriving at your own door, in your own mirror, and each will smile at the other’s welcome and say, Sit here, [00:21:00] eat.

You will love again the stranger who is yourself. Give wine, give bread, give back your heart to itself, to the stranger who has loved you all your life.

Take down the love letters from the bookshelf, the photographs, the desperate notes. Peel your own image from the mirror. Sit down. Feast on your life. So that’s what I’m doing right now. And the book begins with this feast on my life. I’m really looking back and, and appreciating the depth of all my experiences and the meaning and the joys and recording or memorializing those things along with all the lessons that I’ve learned in life.

So. That the heart attack [00:22:00] was a great gift, and you know, the other thing was that the Chinese have a legend that when we’re born, we’re connected by an invisible red thread, an access to everyone that we’re destined to meet. And the Inuit culture believes that a red thread connects all the meaning in our lives.

And now in quantum physics, they talk about the red thread. You know, and so it’s thrilling to me. And then I in my book, which anybody can download on the homepage of my website, which is Diana Wentworth. com the quantum physicists are, are talking about the red thread. And I, I, I took it and talked about the veins in our bodies, the veins and the capillaries.

And it’s all about. Taking care of yourself and loving yourself and living a heart centered life. So I wrote that book just in a couple of months and published it myself for the American Heart [00:23:00] Association. And then I got to speak at a bunch of the Go Red for Women luncheons. So I didn’t let any of that go by without profiting on it.

Gissele: Definitely. And it’s helpful for women to know that part, right? It’s something that is not often still talked about. Oh, I forgot I was going to ask. No, I remember. I was going to ask you about, since the poem I found so deeply moving, what it really brought up for me was the concept of self love. What, what role has self love played in your life and in your ability to be able to kind of align to your magic?

Diana: Well, I grew up probably much longer before most of your listeners. So back in my day, you know, in the 50s, and there was a lot of judgmentalness and competition with women and, and all of that. And it’s, and And I, I went [00:24:00] through a horrible puberty. I grew eight inches in one year. I had acne. I was suddenly very voluptuous and I had just been a little girl, you know?

And it was really hard to love myself. And so I really thought of myself. Primarily as somebody that I could make decorative, you know, I could, I could learn to use makeup and I did a lot of modeling in those days and everything. And I did transform my body into something that was much more acceptable.

But I think that the women have had a lid on us for so long, you know, we’re not supposed to be loud. We’re not supposed to be out there and and. Full of exuberance and all of that. And something really funny happened because I was in a writing class with another teacher and there were 500 people in the class and she said, [00:25:00] okay, everybody write about a school cafeteria experience.

And I wrote about this horrible puberty and everything. And then for some reason out of 500 people, she pointed at me and she said, Diana, read us what you wrote. And it was totally embarrassing. It was all about periods and you know, it was gross, but. Afterwards, I was kind of the next day, I was still kind of embarrassed, but I was laughing.

I was laughing at, you know, just the humiliation of it all. Yeah. And I thought, well, you know, women have this, we don’t have that. I don’t have a voice, you know, and so I went to the computer. I went to GoDaddy and I bought a domain called women. Writing wild because I was teaching all these writing classes and I thought, well, let’s tap into that.

That’s a great subject. And a couple of days later, I got a phone call from David Fagan saying, Diana, I want you to write the foreword for a book called Women Gone Wild. I mean, how strange is that? That’s kind of an example [00:26:00] of the so called coincidences that continually show up around me. Beautiful.

Gissele: Can we talk, since we were talking about, you know, self love and then obviously love for others, can you tell us a little bit about how is it that you ended up writing your book on Send Me Someone?

How is it that synchronicity led for you

Diana: to find your second soulmate? That was wonderful. My, well, it was horrible and wonderful at the same time to tell you the truth because Paul and I had been married 25 years. We had just celebrated our 25th anniversary. We had lit a candle to the 25 years that we’d had.

We laughed and we cried. We marveled over it. We went out to a wonderful dinner and came back and lit a candle to the next 25 years. And neither one of us said a word. And I had a thought that went through my head, which [00:27:00] was, is this our last anniversary? It was very strange. We went to bed very sober that night.

And two days later, he was diagnosed with terminal cancer and it was completely unexpected. He’d been just fine. And he lived another four months. And then just about a week before he died, I had, he had fallen asleep on the couch and I had gone to take, to get a glass of water for him. And I heard him say.

I don’t want you to be alone. And what came out of me were the words, send me someone. And he said, I will, I will. And right after he died. I still felt him so present with me. I could still journal with him and he would tell me certain things to do. And I would, and he told me to go out and buy a squirt gun.

I mean, this [00:28:00] is really a strange story. It was, you know, I was like, what, you know, and it was like, this is

Gissele: what I was talking about, Diana. Sometimes the guidance that I get to, you’re like, I’m like, what? That doesn’t make any sense to me. Go on.

Diana: But I have learned to trust, you know, and it was about 630 at night.

And so the toy store was still open. I ran over there. They only had one squirt gun. It looked like a hot dog with mustard on. I mean, it was really strange, but it happened to be the night before our inside edge. It was a very big. Picnic called the interconnectedness picnic. You know, it was right after the 4th interdependent picnic because it was right after the 4th of July.

So I took the squirt gun to the picnic and into the walked a man named Ted Wentworth. And I had only met him very briefly, he had been widowed and had been looking for his new wife for [00:29:00] two years, and he had dated 131 women, which he kept track of in a little internet, not an internet black book, but on an on, you know, a document on on a computer.

And I remember the first day he walked into the inside edge. He came with a friend and he was very psychic and he said to his friend, she’s here. My new wife is in this room. And so I was the host that morning and somebody said, well, Diana, how are you really doing? Because it’s only been 2 months since Paul had died.

And I said, well, you know, it’s really interesting being alone. The first man who looks at me with the idea of a live in relationship could become the victim of an axe murder. And I wouldn’t normally say something like that, you know, that was like a frog that jumped out of my mouth. And so Jed was there for the first for the first [00:30:00] time.

And during the intermission, he walked right up to me and he said, this is what he said to me the very first thing. He said, will you live with me? Wow. So this is about two weeks later. We’re at the picnic and nobody’s paying any attention to me and my squirt gun. So I squirted him when I saw him and he took off running after me.

We ran through all through the grounds. He yanked the squirt gun away. He threw me over his back, took the squirt gun out of my, out of my hand and then squirted me in the face. So are you going to have dinner with me? Yeah. And I married him six months later. So that was incredibly magic. That’s how the book Send Me Someone was named that.

And it’s called A True Story of Love Here and Hereafter. So powerful.

Gissele: It’s also powerful. Can I ask in terms of when you had your, your heart attack, was it [00:31:00] around the time like, was it in between the husbands or was it like, were you still

Diana: married? No, I had been married to Ted for about 15 years when I had the heart attack.

I married him in 89 and This happened in 09. So that’s 20 years. I was married to him for 20 years. Oh,

Gissele: wow. That’s a long time. Yeah. No, I was just wondering if there was a connection between the emotional aspect of your relationships and the heart attack, right? Because, you know, as you heard. That heart

Diana: attack was a complete gift.

And the timing of it was the complete gift because I really grew a lot from that. I became certified in a second kind of yoga. Restorative yoga. And I, I was certified by one of the founders of the, of Yoga Journal. And then when I moved to Palm [00:32:00] Springs here, when Ted and I moved to Palm Springs here eight years ago, I went to a yoga class and it wasn’t any good.

And the owner with the salon of the studio was there. And I said, you know, that isn’t restorative yoga. Because I’m certified in it. And I know she says, Oh, well, then you’re going to teach yoga. And so I, that began my yoga career, just, and I had it all, you know, and that was really fun because I called it heart yoga.

And I would insert my mystical poetry into the classes because everybody holds the pose for about four minutes. And stay, you know, it’s not a fast yoga. It’s not. It’s not a flow yoga or anything else. You use a lot of bolsters and other kinds of props in order to hold your body open and you surrender into the pose.

And it’s really deep and wonderful, but there’s a lot of silence there. So people always enjoyed all the poetry that I knew by [00:33:00] heart. And that’s so

Gissele: powerful to be able to hold the pose because I think that’s probably where like you like you said it opens up space. And since you mentioned the word surrender, I’m going to ask you a little bit about what your relationship with surrender has been in what you’re moving into in terms of surrender.

Diana: Well, I do think that faith and surrender are their last two big lessons. And. When Ted was alive we would every summer here in the desert, it gets so hot that we would go on a road trip and we would really only know where we were going the first day. So we would normally head up toward Lake Tahoe and then we would wonder, you know, what, what park have we seen or which direction should we go?

Where should we go? We would ask. And I began to call that The Road Trip to Surrender. So several people are saying they think [00:34:00] that’s the title of my next book, is The Road Trip to Surrender, because I’m going to be out there kind of living in a state of wonder and expectancy for the next right stepping stones to show up in front of me.

So I’d say my relationship with surrender is very alive right now. I’m waiting to hear where somebody thinks that I might have a little kind of a sacred space. Maybe somebody’s casita or guest house where I can just have some basic things in that I can travel and and teach yoga and teach writing and go to luxury spas and.

Beyond the faculty, and I just know all this is going to open up. I live in a state of wonder and expectancy. And I think that that helps, you know, just being open and receptive is the answer and the key. Do [00:35:00] you ever feel

Gissele: fear or doubt? Like, do you ever feel and what do you do with those emotions? Like, how do you, how do you help people shift that?

Just because that’s what I hear, right? Like I, you know, I’ve had experiences where I’ve fully trusted, had very clear guidance, fully trusted, even if it didn’t make sense. And there was other times when more so when it impacted other people, not so much myself, where I’m like, I don’t know if I could like there’s there’s some doubt and fear sometimes even negative thinking.

So why do you shift out of that negative thinking so that it doesn’t you so you don’t allow your energy to go down and it shifts you out of

Diana: your magic. Well, I’ll tell you what I do. But first, I’ll tell you that yes, I do have those moments. Sometimes I’m absolutely terrified. You know, I’m 82 years old, and I had been lifting a bunch of things and ended up with a bunch of back pain that I really hadn’t [00:36:00] figured it was from the lifting.

And it was, it was like, My gosh, two days from now, I could be disabled. You know, what am I going to do? Where would I live? What would I do with all this stuff? What I do every morning when I wake up is I smile. I remind myself to smile because normally we wake up and think, Oh, gosh, what do I have to do today?

You know, and, and there’s a fear. There’s a natural fear that runs along with it. And the great teacher Pema Chodron, who’s a Buddhist nun had some great impact on, on the way I think of things. So she says there’s like 17 seconds that we have to turn that around. So the way I do it is first of all, I smile.

Because the smile sends a message to your body to release the [00:37:00] feel good hormone endorphins and things like that. And then I do what I, I call, I craft what I call a quintessential question or a quantum question. So this question has the energy and the vibration almost already of the solution. It’s not just what do I do about my bad back, you know what I mean?

It’s, it’s more, how can I most effectively light up this world? Or where’s the most joy to be found today? You see, the feeling that you want is in the question itself. And I believe that that does more to generate the upward spiral that becomes my day and as I, I get back in bed and I put on my headphones and I listen to an app called New Calm and it takes me into [00:38:00] a really elevated bed.

Kind of a super learning space. And then I began to just keep asking more and more creative questions. Sometimes I listen to a YouTube recording of Jan Phillips. You might want to jot this down because she says there, she has like a five minute recording to music of something that she wrote that’s called Think of Yourself.

And she talks about think of yourself You know, this divine opening this, you know, she just goes on and on. And she’s so powerful, that it always reminds me, I think it’s really important first thing in the morning to do these, these things that take us from a downward spiral into an upward spiral.

Gissele: Yeah, that is so,

Diana: so powerful.

Pretty much stay there all day. You know, Greg Brayden has a wonderful meditation that I love where you [00:39:00] put your hand on your heart. And you Just doing that, just putting, and I always in my new calm sessions, I always have my hand on my heart because that centers you, that takes you into, you know, the most open place and I begin to send messages to every cell to renew themselves in their original pattern instead of their pattern.

Thank you. Current circumstance, so I feel that that all enlivens my body, that I’m, that I’m doing all the right things to give my body the nourishment it needs through my own suggestions and so on.

Gissele: Yeah, what you said is so powerful. I love they putting your hand on your chest. I I’ve done compassion based training.

And that’s one of the things that they teach you to do, which is, you know, like, put your hand on your heart or another soothing place to give yourself a moment of loving kindness. Right? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. [00:40:00] So exciting. I was wondering if you could tell since you mentioned newcombs, you want to talk a little bit about what that is?

Because I know I’m gonna get asked,

Diana: you know, okay, sure. Sure. It’s N U C A L M, and it’s the only patented brain science. For years, it’s been used by the military forces all over the world because of the stress that they’re under, and they have a track called Rescue that really takes you into deep relaxation and stress relief.

And the only way you could access this for so many years was by buying 6, 000 headphones. And so it was prohibitively expensive. But running the inside edge, I was always inviting different speakers and I invited the inventor. Of new calm to come and speak and I was fascinated and then right after my husband Ted died 2 years ago, [00:41:00] I heard that they had turned it into an app and that you could access it much less expensively and I started using it and I was just expecting to have some beautiful relaxation.

What I began to notice after a few weeks was that, wow, I was, it was almost like I was able to download the solutions and I even began to find that I could start dictating into my phone, you know, just on the notes app, 2500 or 3500 words of a book I was writing and it would be so conversational and it was, it was almost like it was tuning me into my higher self.

And so they had Tony Robbins as a spokesperson who had always just raved about it and wanted everybody. He coaches to use it. [00:42:00] They don’t pay him anything. He just is a natural fan of it and they had some other great. Sports figures speaking out for it. And so I’m not shy. I’m really good at asking for what I want.

And I reached out to Jim Poole, who’s the president, and I told him that he needed me, that he needed an elder, you know, could talk about how wonderful the product was. And fortunately, he and his brother came out and visited me in my home. And I was able to show them through a friend of mine who did a PowerPoint about the future of Newcombe.

And so they actually hired me as a spokesperson. Okay, that’s great. And now I’m going to take it into some new uses because they have these tracks now that are called Flow and so on. And they’re beautiful. The music is beautiful. I’m going to be using it in my yoga classes, behind you know, underneath all of [00:43:00] the, the poses so that people are actually getting the benefit of this increased brain function.

And they, they have it for sleep. They have it for all different purposes. But what I love is just the rescue tracks and the flow tracks. They have one called Ignite. That is actually a little too powerful. Tony Robbins is involved in that when it makes me manic. No,

Gissele: yeah, we don’t want that.

Diana: Yeah, that was good when I was much younger.

But you know, it just is the most wonderful thing. And I know that if you go to the website they have me there speaking about it. I, I know I have a link somewhere that can give 15 percent off, but I just honestly don’t know where. Go to my website, go to my website, dinowetwork. com and go to [00:44:00] the newcom thing, and it’ll take you to the right page to get 15 percent off, but they lower the price so much that you can join it for as little as 29 a month and have many of the benefits.

So. That’s wonderful.

Gissele: So we do a transcription of the show. So I can add the links there as well. Like we can link directly to your site and we can link anything that you want to offer. And that gives me now an opportunity to ask you about what you’re working on. What do you want the audience to know about you?

Where can people find you? Where can people work

Diana: with you? Oh, gosh, well, yes, I love I can give a little 15 minute call, you know, with people to see if they want to work with me. What I specialize in is these wisdom circles.

Where people can kind of experience what I call encore magic or expect magic and it’ll have a lot of the tools of like I told you about waking up in the morning and doing these certain things. And people can decide whether they want to work with me. [00:45:00] I work with people privately as a coach just on their project, or we create these circles.

My friend Robin Mullen and I have something called wisdom circles. com and you can go to that and see some of the different programs that that we offer. I think it’s really, really wonderful when women are working in community and, and. Gaining new friends and deep relationships and all of that. So you can pretty much find everything you want on my site and download the book as well.

Thank you. Thank you.

Gissele: And your Expect Magic book comes out in 2024? Any month? I think

Diana: so. I I have… I haven’t marketed it to publishers yet. Oh, okay. I’ve been working on it for a few years. Some publishers take a very long time to get it out. I’m hoping it’ll be out as soon as possible. Yeah, that would

Gissele: be great because I look forward to reading it.

Thank you so, so [00:46:00] much, Diana, for being on the show. It was such an enlightening conversation and so, so inspiring. Yeah, I look forward to hearing more from you. I did sign up for one of your circles, so I look forward to listening about that. And thank you so much for tuning into the Love and Compassion Podcast

Diana: with Giselle. Oh, thank you so much for having me. This was delightful and I just enjoyed you so much. Thank you very much.

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Listen to this inspiring story of healing from Georgie, who shares her experiences with rosacea and how by addressing her most complex inner feelings, she was able to heal herself.  In this episode she shares how her thoughts and feelings created illness in her body and how she was able to find healing from something doctors labelled "incurable".  If you are looking for inspiration, do not miss this conversation.

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TranscriptGissele: [00:00:00] hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world. Cool. Don’t forget to liken, subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re gonna be talking about how to end hate with kindness, respect, and love with Jay Paul Nado. Who spent more than 30 years working with victims of crimes and perpetrators and learning from top experts.

Over the course of his career, Paul has talked hostage takers into giving themselves up and murderers into admitting their crimes. And because of his extensive training and his unique approach to connecting with people of all walks of life and under different circumstances, his life was saved by a terrorist during a terrorism attack in the Middle East.

Paul is a bestselling author, a mental health strategist, and was the Canadian Mental Health Association’s first choice as keynote speaker in 2019 for their fourth annual conference. He’s [00:01:00] a regular guest on Sirius xms Talk Talk Radio, a consultant to World News Networks such as C N N, the National in CP 24 for his expertise on terrorism and global hostage crisis.

He’s a screenwriter and accomplished keynote speaker on topics of negotiations, conflict resolutions, and mental health. Paul is also the host of Inspire Us. Paul is also the host of the Inspired US podcast. Please join us in welcoming Paul. Hi Paul.

Paul: Hi Giselle. Very nice to see you. How you doing? I’m good.

Gissele: How about yourself?

Paul: I’m doing well.

Gissele: I was wondering if you could tell the audience a little bit about your childhood and what led you on this journey.

Paul: Absolutely. Well, you know, I, I was raised, in a home where there was a lot of violence.

My father was a, a violent alcoholic who used to beat my mother, my brother, and myself regularly. I grew [00:02:00] up not believing in myself. I had low self-esteem. I suffered from depression, and something happened in grade seven that really was the pivot point for me. Up until then, I had no belief that I would amount to anything.

my teachers were even telling me back then that you’ll never amount to anything. What are you doing here? And it was that kind of environment way back when in the sixties. So, in grade seven, I started to like girls, and there was one teacher that. He put me on the spot. What he did was, and I don’t know if he did this deliberately, Gissele, but what he did was he announced to the classroom that we were all going to have a test, and he expected everyone to pass.

And then he pointed at me, he said, except for you, Nadeau, I already know you’re going to fail. That was so humiliating and embarrassing to me. I, I felt every eye on me. And I remember going back home and just crying that weekend and just, kind of examining my life. And I, I opened the books for the [00:03:00] test and I didn’t know how to study because I’d never really applied myself to, to do that.

My mother tried to get me to study, but my little mind just didn’t want to. And I, I did that for the weekend. I just looked over my notes and I went in the next week and I wrote that test. And you know how we have these two little voices in our hands? Yeah. One voice is supportive. We’re the other one is not.

It’s like a little devil. Mm-hmm. . And the little devil was telling me, you’re, You’re not gonna do this, you’re not gonna pass this test. He’s gonna humiliate the heck out of you. And the other one was saying, you know, the stuff, like, just answer the questions. Once I had written the test, I handed it in. And what was customary in this teacher’s, class was that he would announce the, the student with the lowest grade.

first he would announce the, the, the grade, and we would walk up and pick up the paper. I was conditioned to pick up the paper all the time. Like the first one I’d get outta my chair, walk over. So on this day, he started to call out the [00:04:00] names, and I wasn’t first, second, or third. And I thought, okay, this is, this is interesting because again, those voices right, he’s gonna wait until the very end and he’s gonna humiliate you.

That was the one that was really kind of banging on my head. . As it turns out, there were three students left and it was my cousin and another, girl by the name of Gisele and the two, yeah, . And the two of them always competed for the highest mark in, in, in the class. And my cousin was next to be called up and then me.

So that was a defining moment. I was the second, last to be called. I had the second highest grade and I didn’t take the walk of shame. I took a very proud walk to the front of the classroom and I started to believe in myself that if I could do that, what else can I do? And I never looked back. What got me onto the police, force was about the age of seven and, and the number seven really plays a role in my life.

Mm-hmm. , it just seems that [00:05:00] number seven pops up all the time. When I was seven, my father beat me and I was on the ground after the beating. And I remember looking up at him and just thinking, when I grew up, I’m gonna be a policeman. So I can arrest you and people like you, and that always stayed with me.

Now, when I was 17 again, I, my father killed himself and he killed himself with the same rifle he killed Santa Claus with when I was about eight. And, I just remember after his death, just following through with the decision to become a police officer, and at the age of 21 joined the police department.

shortly after that, I became a detective. I worked in the Special victims unit. I became a hostage negotiator, international peacekeeper, professional interrogator, and just, I just keep moving forward and there’s so much to do once you believe in yourself, Gisele. And once you believe that you can attain and you shoot high, we were talking about stars earlier.

Shoot for the stars and just see where it [00:06:00] lands because if you don’t try, you won’t. ,

Gissele: yeah. Oh, thank you for sharing this story. There were so many parts that really resonated with me.

one of the things that resonated for me about your story was that you became a policeman in order to arrest people like your dad.

I went into child protection to protect people like my mom. And so what do you think it is about children that we have kind of, we feel this responsibility for parents?

Paul: You know, I, I, I can’t answer that, but I, I do believe that at times we allow our circumstances to define us. Yeah. And we shouldn’t, we sh we should define our circumstances.

Never let our, our circumstances de define us. However, I, I’ve heard so many people who have become psychologists, psychiatrists, or whatever, and they did so because of their childhood. and watching their parents argue and not getting a sense of who they were. I, we rise to the challenge to, to become these better [00:07:00] people.

And it’s so nice to do that. some people don’t rise up. Mm-hmm. , they just let their circumstances really define them and, and they never get out of it. And years of therapy later, they’re still not well because they didn’t make the choice to rise above and say, you don’t define me.

My, my abuse in the past does not mean that I’m gonna become a serial killer. It doesn’t mean that I’m going to be a loser. Doesn’t mean that I’m gonna be whatever. No. I am going to choose for myself. And that is the motivation that so many people need. They need to believe in themselves. And only when you believe in yourself, will other people believe in you.

Gissele: And that has been kind of our experience in terms of the more that you love and accept yourself, the more that you can love and accept other people. Yes. and so one of the things also that I really enjoyed about your story was that, you know, when you became a policeman and then you became a detective, and then you were doing these, this, you know, special stuff, the approach that you use with [00:08:00] all of your work seemed to be one, of non-judgment, of, of listening to the stories and seeing the humanity of people.

how did you get to that point? How did you decide that that was the approach you were going to use with people rather than the traditional approach that sometimes we have in these systems, which is, you know, judge separate,

Paul: isolate.

Isolate. Right. What a wonderful question. Gisele. Oh, thank you. For me, you know, my father a, a as as he had a, a Jekyll and Hyde personality.

but he sent me out at the age of 12 to find a job so that I could pay room and board and, at the age of 12, I had to lie and say I was 16 and I’d be a busboy and that kind of stuff. But I learned how to speak to adults and ask for what I wanted, how to negotiate. I really learned a lot of those key things.

My mother also, God bless her, my mom was just a beautiful woman. Hmm. And when I was about eight or nine years old, she used to sell encyclopedias. Mm-hmm. , like, yes, encyclopedia is our thing of the [00:09:00] past folks. we used to have them, Britannica, encyclopedia Britannica. Yeah. And, my mother used to buy them and then she would sell them for a profit, but she was so busy taking care of the home and we had, different roomers who were, living in the basement.

So, She would call into this, this radio station and sell her her, like, they’d give her about two minutes to talk and she’d say what she had. Mm-hmm. She started putting me on the phone and here’s this like eight year old kid saying, I, we’ve got encyclopedia and my mom has, you know, and so I learned how to, how to really come into myself there, what made me kind of shift and treat people, the way that I wanted to be treated.

But not only that, there’s a golden rule rule, treat others the way that you would like to be tru treated, but then there’s the platinum rule, and that is treat people the way that they want to be treated. Mm-hmm. Two years into my, my work, about the first two years, I learned two very important lessons.

The first one, and, and I probably knew these before I joined the police department, but they [00:10:00] solidified when I joined number one, we are more similar than we are different. the moment I began to imagine what it must be like to be approached by a uniform cop or a detective. you know, if you were the victim of a serious assault, a, a sexual assault, whatever, what would it be like to have a detective walk in and start asking you questions?

Mm-hmm. , put yourself in that person’s shoes. How would you want to be treated with dignity and respect? You’d wanna be treated carefully. That lesson really embodied me. It it just like treat people, you know, like you, you’re going to, you’re going to be able to reach them because they are so similar to you.

They laugh, love, and bleed in the same way. They have the same worries everybody carries a cross. Everybody goes through something. So treat them the way that you would like to be treated and that much more. Then the second lesson that I learned, that I carried with me throughout my career was you get what you give.

Mm-hmm. , if I give you love and respect, [00:11:00] I’m gonna get love and respect likely in return. However, if I give you the finger on the street and call you a name, I’m likely gonna get that back, or maybe even worse. So the way in which you, you treat others is usually the way in which you’re going to be treated in return.

And that has been really, a lesson for me that changed everything. As a police officer. I got confessions, from killers who were told by their lawyers, don’t you talk to the detectives? You say that you, you know that you’re exercising your right to remain silent. All that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. yet I didn’t walk in to talk to a murderer.

I walked in to talk to a human being. And I wanted to get to know who that person was and, and what motivated them to do what they did. And everybody’s got a story. Mm-hmm. . And once you allow people to tell their stories, it, it just opens the gates and it creates this, this beautiful bridge in which you connect with another human being.

So that’s been my [00:12:00] philosophies and that’s what got me here.

Gissele: Hmm. Oh, I love that you said that. I love your platinum rule cuz it really resonates with, me in, in the work that we do. because we, we look at compassion from the sense of it. It comes from a place of non-judgment and allowing all things to be.

Yeah. and so what happens with compassion in these feelings is that a lot of people think that they’re being compassionate, but then they still force their will on other people. They still need people to change. Right. Like, you know, they still, people need people to do a specific thing and that they feel it should be done.

And so that’s why I love your platinum route. Thank you rule. and it also reminded me of a story that my sister told me. So my sister’s a nurse,

she also is atheist, but she would sit and pray with people. She would just give them respect and love, and she would say to me, It’s amazing what people share with you. Like they tell you there’s skeletons in their closet and she’s like, she was just not prepared for that.

All she was was just bearing witness to another human being and giving the most that she could [00:13:00] of herself with that love and kindness. But she said the exact same thing. She says, people will tell you things that they’ve never told anyone, and she was just not prepared for that. So what you said really resonated with me, and I remember the, her stories.

Paul: Yeah. Oh, that’s sweet. Because it, it’s so true. People open up to you when they feel that you are listening to them Yeah. And that you, that they matter. Mm-hmm. And the moment that they feel that people will open up and people will mm-hmm. , they, they, they will do things. So it’s great.

Gissele: Yeah. It’s from that place of like non-judgment, right?

It is. what helps you have non-judgment? Like, especially like what helps you when you may be triggered. Like, it’s easy for me not to have judgment when I am not triggered , but when you’re triggered sometimes you’re like, Ooh, it feels a little like a hard edge. What helps you kinda shift out of that into, okay, I’m gonna li in listening

Paul: mode.

Yeah. Well, I just don’t allow myself to get triggered. Okay. I, I, I don’t take things personally because if [00:14:00] somebody says something, horrible to you, then you have a choice. Eleanor Roosevelt said that, nobody can make you feel bad unless you give them permission to, and Victor Frankl who wrote, man’s Search for Meaning, which is a, an amazing book, he said that, between stimulus and response, there is a moment.

And in that moment we get to choose our response. And it’s so true. Is that, We don’t want to be reactors, like we wanna be responders. Imagine, first responders who go to the scene of an accident if they were first reactors. They get out, they go, oh my goodness, look at all the blood. What am I gonna do?

You know, we don’t want that. We want people who are focused, they jump out. They’re first responders. They say, okay, we got this. We should become our first responders. We respond and not react. And so, don’t allow yourself to be, personally attacked because it, it don’t take it personally that it’s, it’s very simple.

Imagine [00:15:00] that hurt people, hurt people. And if they say something to you that is hurtful, instead of reacting to it, you may want to just ask a question. Are you okay? Is everything all right? Yeah. Where’s that coming from today? You know, and just, just allow it just to not consume you, but you. Respond as opposed to react.

So I, I really don’t let that happen to me. Hmm.

Gissele: Yeah. So you must have a good, kind of emotional regulation, system, right? because often what I have found, in my journey has been that, or even growing up, even with my parents, like in the people that I have seen is, or the adults in my life, is that they required us to behave, or children to behave in order so that they can feel at peace.

So people that need to control environments need the external to be peaceful. In order for them to experience peace, they need other people to change their behavior in order for them to feel happy. Whereas when you have a solid internal regulating [00:16:00] system, or you can find that peace from within the chaos outside of you doesn’t shake you because you have a good foundation.

so what helped you kind of have that good foundation?

Paul: Well, I, you know, I, I’m good. I think. , I would attribute a lot of that to, my police experience. Mm-hmm. where things were happening all the time. Something could explode in front of me. Like people could get violent, everything. Yeah. And I, and I had to keep my cool in order to deescalate the situation.

Mm-hmm. . And when you condition yourself to, to respond and not react, as I said a little bit earlier mm-hmm. , it, it, it becomes a pattern of yours. It’s like, okay, so if I’m dealing in a fight, like I’ve been in a lot of fights and I couldn’t lose my cool, I had to, I, I, I had two. To keep my cool mm-hmm. and I had to do my very best in order to deescalate and, and stop what was [00:17:00] happening.

So I, I think I got conditioned, you know, time and time again. Is that okay? I, I’ve got this and I, I still, every once in a while, I have to remind myself, you’ve got this and it’s just a natural response that we get scared or we get intimidated or whatever. But you. That’s when you take a, a deep breath and you put your shoulders back and put your chin up and say, I’ve got this.

And I, I love that philosophy is that I remind myself when I get nervous or nervous and excitement are the same emotion. And, so if I’m nervous, I say, no, I’m excited. And just, here we go. We’re gonna do this. And I think that people need to adapt that, to their lives when they’re afraid of presentations.

For example, you know, a lot of people who speak in public, they’re, they’re nervous. They say that it’s one of the worst feelings. you know, they, they rate it as one of the, the worst, but turn that nervousness into excitement. I get to do this. Not I have to do this, I get to do this. I [00:18:00] get to speak.

Whatever it is that you’re nervous about, you get to do it. Yeah. So, I, I, I think that’s one of the ones.

Gissele: Oh, that’s a great reframe for sure. Thank you. Yeah. Because then helps you transform the energy from one of, like, anxiety and like, Victimhood to one of empowerment and autonomy, right? I get to do this. I, you know, I get to share my story.

I get to be here. Yeah, I

Paul: love that. And I love what you said about like energy. You used the word energy. It’s true. Like we are energetic beings. Yeah. Like we are energy. And what we put out into the world again, is, is what people are going to receive. So if you are, low on your energy, you’re not confident, you’re shy, whatever it is, people are going to receive that energy and they’re going to treat you likely accordingly.

They’re gonna judge you. And people do, judge. But if you are able to raise your energy level and just say, listen, I am as worthy as anybody else. I’m amazing. And, and this is [00:19:00] a morning ritual where in which you talk to yourself and you really set the tone for the day mm-hmm. . And you remind yourself just how special you are, that you’re here and that you’re grateful to be here.

Your energy’s gonna be up here because I’m gonna make it. So, and then that way you bring this high energy into the world and people will receive that high energy and they’ll notice you. And I, I, I, I think that that’s just amazing that we get to choose our energy.

Gissele: Yeah. Oh, thank you for reminding our audience of that.

because it is so true. I think that we don’t realize how our beliefs and our thoughts are getting us to a specific vibrational alignment, and then how we then attract all of these experiences. We don’t want to. So we do get to choose. one of the things I’ve heard from people, is that they find it sometimes hard to have those beliefs about themselves.

Like, you know that you’re worthy and you’re lovable, and, and you are, you know, wonderful and, and amazing, because of the negative messaging that they have heard maybe throughout childhood or, but some of their teachers, like this is the people that, that, [00:20:00] that they don’t, they don’t choose to say, mm, no, I’m making a choice.

what do you think might help them, start to take steps towards that, towards feeling more, worthy, I guess.

Paul: Yes. Again, what a beautiful question to ask. I do believe, I, I, I like to tell people that there are three time zones, in our life. There’s the past, the present, and the future. Yeah. The past, what happened five minutes ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, is gone.

I cannot go back and change that. And when I, if I do examine it, I don’t wanna stay there long, because if it’s something bad, I don’t wanna pack my bags and go to the poor me hotel. Like, poor me. I was, I was traumatized by a father, an alcoholic father. Poor me. If I go to the poor Me hotel and I check in, then in the hotel they have this Yme Lounge and the Yme lounge, they, they, they give you these drinks at half price, and you go and you go, poor me.

Why has this happened to me? Well, guess [00:21:00] what? Your past is your past and much of what happened to you. If not all is not your fault, and the moment that you tell yourself the beautiful, story with Robin Williams, Goodwill Hunting. Mm-hmm. , you know, there, there’s this beautiful scene in which, you know, Robin Williams is, is just reminding, you know, Matt Damon, the character Matt Damon played, that what happened to him was not his fault.

So we have to remind ourselves, Hey, that was not my fault and I cannot wear the victim label. , because I’m not a victim. I choose that, that word choice, that six letter word is amazing. So don’t live in the past. Mm-hmm. , don’t live in the future. Plan for the future. Absolutely. You know, make these great plans.

But remember that in a moment everything can be taken away because we, we discovered this with Covid 19, didn’t we? Everybody had these plans. I’m going on holidays, , everybody

Gissele: had all these lofting plans they’re gonna do, and 2020 came and it was like, Nope. Not doing any of that. . That ain’t

Paul: happening to you in your homes.

Yeah, exactly. [00:22:00] So you are not in control. Why worry about the things that you are not in control? What are you in control of? Mm-hmm. , you’re in control of this moment right now. I get to talk to Gissele . Mm-hmm. . And I am on, you know, your show. This is amazing. I get to make a new connection here. Mm-hmm. , I get to choose how I’m feeling.

I’m feeling great. Mm-hmm. , because I get to talk to you. So this is the most important moment of your life. Mm-hmm. . And we were all born equal. It’s not like somebody was born to be better than us. No. We have to believe that we are as worthy as everyone. And to answer your question more specifically is that we condition ourselves so.

Bring this into your daily routine in which you wake up and, and you take a few moments to be grateful. Grateful. Number one, that you woke up, grateful that you have a family, grateful that you have a roof over your head. Grateful that you have your health, that you have somebody who loves you, that you love something.

So take that, that moment to be grateful and then, [00:23:00] As we get ready for our day, we’ve picked our clothes for the day, we’ve picked our, you know, I’m gonna be wearing this red shirt, I’m gonna be doing this, I’m gonna be doing it. Mm-hmm. . Okay, this is what I’m gonna be wearing. Why not go into the closet of your mind and just walk into that bright closet where there’s love and faith and servitude and all those things, and pick the attitude that you want to bring to the world.

Mm-hmm. so that you’ve, you’ve already conditioned yourself for the day. You’ve said, nothing is gonna get to me. Somebody cuts me off, I’m in line. Somebody cuts me off. Whatever. I’m on the highway, whatever. That’s not gonna bother me. I get to choose my response. Mm-hmm. and I get to choose that. I’m gonna face this world in, in a loving and supportive way, and that I’m gonna be the best I can possibly be.

Mm-hmm. . And we, you know, a lot of people blame and shame themselves for things that, that have happened or they’ve done in the past. I just wanna remind everybody that you are not the person you were. [00:24:00] 10 days ago. You’re not the person that you were five years ago. You’re standing on the shoulders of that person.

Mm-hmm. , we are a work in progress and we get to choose, like, if we have hurt someone, then it’s our responsibility to ask for forgiveness and then to forgive ourselves because we’re not those people. We won’t do that again. We’re going to be these new creations every day, and we get to choose how we’re going to welcome this world and what we’re gonna do to welcome it.

So yeah, that’s, that’s, oh,

Gissele: that was so good. I felt that , I love that analogy of, you know, we pick out our clothes, we pick out the thing, we can pick out our mindset, we can pick out our beliefs. And I think what you’re really talking about is, you know, through our beliefs and thoughts, we kind of create these, these habits and then these identities.

And, you know, we walk around with these, I’m a victim identity. I, you know, I, this happened to me identity. And we feed those identities and choose them every day, but we’re not realizing we’re choosing them every day because it’s easier to [00:25:00] choose them. And I think what you’re inviting us to do is really shift out of those identities and create new habits, new habits of, I’m gonna choose my mindset today.

Like I choose my shirt. I’m gonna choose what I’m gonna allow to get to me, you know, when I’m driving on the highway, I don’t need to, you know, if a person needs to cut me off, and by all means, please go ahead. You must be in a hurry before you’re getting to. And so that’s, that’s helping us bring our power back.

Take our power back, because so often we give our power away to other people to determine how we feel about ourselves and each other. So what a great invitation. ,

Paul: Gissele , we didn’t rehearse this, but you’re touching on so many incredible things that I resonate with. you, you’re, you’re so right. I’m gonna give an example.

Yeah. when things happen to us, we, we, we can choose to kind of put a sticker on it. We’re meaning making machines. Yeah. And when I look back at. My time in the Special victims unit working on cases of sexual assault and child abuse, [00:26:00] when I spoke to a victim who was completely traumatized, and, and you can understand why.

Yeah. But then, but then they would attach this label to them that they’re victims. They must have done something wrong to have had this happen to them. Their power and control has not been taken from them. It’s been shifted to the, to a side of their brain where they just can’t see it. Yeah. So my job, remember, I, I put myself in the shoes of, of the people that I was dealing with and the victims I was dealing with.

And this would be the tone of my voice and how softly I spoke and how much I reminded them how, how great and special they are. And after a couple of meetings with a victim, if I felt that they were still feeling the victim, mentality, I used to bring in two t-shirts and one t-shirt. It said, victim.

And the other t-shirt, it said Survivor. And I said, today you get to choose one of these [00:27:00] T-shirts. You don’t have to wear it, but whichever one you choose will be worn in one way or another. It will come out in your relationships. It will come out in the way that you feel about yourself. What happened to you was not your fault.

And you do not have to pick the victim. You can pick this super survivor, you can pick this one and say, you know what, you don’t get to take that from me. Yeah. I get to re, I get to redefine my life and I get to do this and it’s not, it’s not my fault. So you, you pick and everyone would pick that survivor’s t-shirt,

Yeah. And then I would get, I’d get a call a couple weeks later, detective Nadeau, I’m wearing the T-shirt and I feel so good. And that was just, yeah. Yeah. Because in these little minds of ours, We can put ourselves down or we can lift ourselves up, and it’s really just fine tuning that thing. Yeah. And I wanna remind people that sometimes it’s not [00:28:00] enough just to say the words.

You’ve gotta bring your physiology into it. You’ve gotta believe it. So if you’re standing in front of a mirror saying, I’m not a victim. I’m not a victim. Mm-hmm. , I’m not a victim. And you’re, you know, you’re slouched down. There’s no energy there. So use the physiology, bring yourself up and just start to shout it out as though you were dancing.

You know, it’s just amazing what we can do with a little bit of physiology and positive talk and self-love. Just remind ourselves that we we’re an incredible human beings. Well, but what is it? 4 million or whatever, sperm we’re, we’re competing for the job that you got. , you know, like, come on, you’re here because I don’t know, it’s sporty million.

I, I have no idea. But you’re here and you’re here for a reason. Mm-hmm. , you know, the meaning of life is to, is to find your gift. And the purpose of life is then to share it with others and everybody. A gift to share with others, and it’s your responsibility to just find what that is, to share it with the world and just remember that you’re worthy [00:29:00] to do it.

You know?

Gissele: Yeah. Oh, so good. Well said. Yeah, and I love that because it helps us kind of shift that perspective that we’re broken. That’s probably one of the things that I hear the most in my work is like, you know, sometimes people feel like they’re broken, like that, they can’t get to that point. And so that shifting, that the survival really does help them be willing to go there, be willing to see themselves and reimagine themselves in a way that, I think it’s, it’s really getting them towards the path of bring, getting back their autonomy.

Yes. what I do love about your work though, is that you not only show compassion, in love and kindness to people that are victims, but also perpetrators. you’re willing to see them in, in a different perspective. I was wondering if you could share with the audience your story about how, love and kindness, saved your life.

Paul: Oh, absolutely. soon to be a movie. And, really? Yes. Oh, that is amazing. Yeah. It’s in the works. And, that’s, congrats. Well, thank you very much. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. Appreciate that. [00:30:00] In, 2005 during the Iraq war, can Canada didn’t send soldiers to the Iraq war. We sent peacekeepers and our police service was, asked if we would participate in peacekeeping missions and a list of different countries were provided to us.

And when I saw Jordan, I thought, yeah, let me go to the Holy Land. This would be great just to, yeah. experience it. And plus the position was one of a teacher and I, I was teaching at the time. Mm-hmm. , I was teaching police officers and I thought this is a great fit for me. So I was, I. Accepted by the United Nations to become a peacekeeper, and I was deployed in 2005.

And again, I imagined what it must be like for all these Iraqi police cadets. There was, it was called the Jordanian International Police Training Center. Mm-hmm. . It was a, the largest police academy in the world, just outside of Iraq in the desert, about 150 kilometers away from the Iraq border. [00:31:00] And every eight weeks we got 3000 police cadets.

ranging from the age of 16 to 65. Wow. And there was no way for Iraq to, to vet the cadets mm-hmm. , they were in such desperate need of mm-hmm. of men, of police officers to help save their country or defend their country. They were just grabbing them. So we were given, young men and, and older men who had mental illnesses, who were frail.

some of them were university, graduates, whereas others had never learned how to, to read or write. Some had never left their home for even one night. And now, wow. 3000 cadets, away from home during a war. And I thought, how would I want to be treated by my instructor? Mm-hmm. . So I came up with, an introduction and I’d.

And I had a, a language assistant who would translate for me. And I said, my name is Paul and it’s an honor for me to be here, to share my experiences with you. And I’m hoping [00:32:00] what I provide you, you’ll be able to use back in your country. And it’s an absolute honor for me to be here. I’m here to treat you with dignity and respect, and I would expect the same in return.

As much as I’m gonna share with you, I would like for you to share with me and I’m gonna make this class fun. And so this was my opening line or my little monologue that I would give them, and I made it fun for them. We had Sunnis and Shiites in our, in our classrooms, but we also had terrorists who had infiltrated the academy just simply by wearing a police uniform.

Mm-hmm. . And it was so easy for them to do. Now they’re being paid to be there for the eight weeks and trained on explosives, self-defense, all this. We tried to, to identify. The terrorists. And once they were identified, of course they were removed, but some of them were able to go underneath and not be, not be found.

One student, I had about 60 [00:33:00] students every two weeks, that would come with me and then they would leave and they’d go, to another classroom for two weeks. And that’s the cycle. But one student had this bodyguard and, it wasn’t unusual to see, men with, with their bodyguards because depending on, on their tribe and their village, they may have high status.

So it wasn’t a big deal. And he took particular interest in my viewpoint about the war and what we were doing there. Mm-hmm. and we had tea and so we developed a friendship and. He left the classroom and about a month later I applied for the job of advocate and counselor for the academy and I got it.

And so it was a beautiful move out of the training branch into helping to support, these cadets and many of them. I was trying to get them better food, more time to leisure time, that kind of stuff. And also, I would have to determine whether or not, a cadet was in, condition [00:34:00] I i in a good condition to remain if, if they weren’t mm-hmm.

Because maybe they, maybe they had been sexually assaulted in the dorm or they were suffering from a mental illness. And I would go, to, to the commissioner and I would say these men have got to be redeployed to their, their country cuz they’re, they’re not good here. Mm-hmm. . one cadet came in because part of my job was just to listen to them, because many of them were sad.

Many of them, like, I’ve never been away from home. I’m lonely, I’m sad, I’m broken. And I would try to encourage them and see if they could, you know, put out a little bit longer because going back home wasn’t that easy. Mm-hmm. one cadet used to come in just to, to talk and he said, Mr. Paul, there’s going to be an attack and it’s gonna be from within the academy, and, internationals are going to be killed.

And I said, well, thank you for, you know, thank you for that. And I went to our security and they already were aware of it. But when you’re on mission or if you are a soldier, you can’t go home [00:35:00] because it’s gonna get heated. You keep going about your job, you’re alert. You have to be more alert. And this is what we did and.

Had a partner, a finish officer by the name of Yadamo, who was about a, a foot taller than I was. Just a beautiful human being. I, I love this guy. And I remember we used to get to the academy before all the other internationals because we had toe, the, the, the dean, the whoever ran the academy to give papers and to talk about who’s gonna go back home.

So we did that. And out of his office, just as the sun was rising, we were walking through the desert and from behind one of the buildings, about 40 armed cadets, carrying rocks and sticks and everything. They could get their, their hands on belts, whatever. They rushed us and they surrounded us. And Gisele, I, I really believed in that moment that those were gonna be the last moments of my life because they were hooting and hollering.

They were [00:36:00] starting to push. And I remember my partner right before the attack, he just, patted me on the head and he said, this is gonna hurt little buddy. And I said, yes it is. And I was thinking about my daughters and thinking I may not see them again. Mm-hmm. . And they reached in and they started to grab us and started to beat us.

And we were fighting for our lives. And just as this was starting, I remember getting knocked down and I could hear one voice from behind the crowd yelling, Mr. Paul, Mr. Paul, Mr. Paul. And he yelled something else in Arabic. I couldn’t make out what he was saying. I didn’t have any, any translators there. And, suddenly the whole crowd just parted like the, like the Red Sea.

And I was kind of getting my focus back. And I looked for the face of the person who had put a stop to the attack. And it was that cadet that I had met earlier. Hmm. And he came, he had the biggest smile on his face. And it really kind of, I’m looking up, he’s got this smile on his face and he reaches over and he [00:37:00] takes me by the arm and he pulls me up and he says, Mr.

Paul, you’ve gotta go. It’s not gonna be a good day. And so my partner and I were, allowed to leave and we rushed back to our office. We called the security, but a stop to all the other, internationals from entering the academy. And we left and our lives were spared. So I can say that not only did I fight terrorism hand to hand, but my life was saved by a terrorist.

And I don’t think too many people can say that. Yeah. So that’s the story. And it, when I looked and reflected back on that Gisele, it was the way in which I treated him and the way in which I treated all the cadets with that dignity and respect I spoke of. And non, non-judgmental, because some of the terrorists don’t want to be terrorists.

They’re given no other option. , their families will be killed. They’ll be killed if they don’t do that. Yeah. So I wanna remind everybody that once we put a label on someone, this is a homeless person. They must be a loser, they must be [00:38:00] this, they must be, this is a prostitute. She must be this, she must be that.

This is what, when, when we stick a label on someone, a negative label, I don’t see who they are. They’re just like you and I we’re more similar than we are different. They’ve got their, they’ve got their broken pieces. We all got our broken pieces, but they’ve got a story just as you do. So why judge them?

Why not try to understand them? Not that, that’s my message to the world. Hmm.

Gissele: And it is such a powerful message and a message that we believe on this podcast in particular, we, I’ve had stories where I’ve showcased people that, you know, like they were facing situations like you, and they chose to turn.

Towards and to love, people that have used even respect. I can think of like Daryl Davis, he used, he went to KKK people as a black musician and leaned in and said, why do you hate me? Just I’m not trying to convert you. I’m not trying to judge you. I’m not trying to hurt you. I’m just trying to understand and got 300 KK [00:39:00] people to leave the Klan.

but our natural inclination is to want to punish because when we are hurt, we wanna hurt.

When we are upset, we wanna lash out. And if you look at the systems we’ve created, and I love this part of your Ted, I believe it was in your TED Talk. The systems we’ve created reflect the level of consciousness that we have, and they reflect how we act. When we’re hurt, they isolate, they separate, they judge, they punish.

in order for us to change, that has to change.

Mm-hmm.

and so what are your thoughts in terms of how these, how this consciousness has led us to create this sort of extremism or has contributed to this racism and extremism and all that we kind of see in the world?

Paul: I think I could answer that by saying that, my experience with many of the, people who were, antisocial and, who had chosen to become gang members or [00:40:00] just criminals or whatever, , when I looked into their lives, into their past and took time to talk about who they were, what made them up, it’s amazing how we, we all need to be seen, heard, validated, loved.

And if you are abused and that’s all you know, is this abuse, then you feel that rejection, I’m not loved. And so as you grow older, you wanna find a group of people who will accept you into their clan, into their whatever it is. And oftentimes if you have this, this terrible feeling about yourself, this, this victim mentality that then some groups will not accept you.

And so you might go to a gang and they’ll say, Hey, you’re welcome. And there’s your home, or you welcome as a terrorist, you’re welcome as this or that. They welcome you into a tribe, and then you adapt to your environment. You feel that you are [00:41:00] accepted, which is what everybody wants to feel loved and accepted.

And we need to break that cycle and just remind people that they, they are worthy of, of whatever it is that they put their heart and soul into, and just not judge as, as easily as we do, label people. I’ve got a problem with labels. I, I I, I don’t know if this happened, to you in, in school Gisele, but remember those posted notes, you know, where somebody would write, you know, something like dummy or something like that on, on a posted note, and then would come and slap you on the back and then you’d walk around and people would laugh because you’ve got this label.

Isn’t that what we do? Isn’t that what we do? We lay this up? Yes.

Gissele: We just don’t put the sticky note. I

Paul: think so. . Oh, no, no. What do we do? Sticky notes up. Yeah. We, we do, we do. And we just need to break that. We need to break that. And I remember I walked in to talk to, a biker, 300 pound biker, big man. And he had some information about, a, a killing a murder.

And I was going in to [00:42:00] talk to him about, about this to see if I could get him to, to give us the information that we needed. And the moment I walked in and I said, w which, which I, I said to a lot of criminals, most criminals, Hey, I’m here to treat you with dignity and respect. And I, and when I said that to him, his head was down.

And the moment I said, I’m here to treat you with dignity and respect, he looked up at me, this 300 pound biker, long hair, big beard, just tears in his eyes. And he said, nobody has ever said that to me. Nobody has ever said that to me. And then he gave me the information I was looking for. We all need this feeling, this connection.

And if we’re willing to give it to those that we feel, you know, maybe don’t deserve it because of their behavior, but if we can break through that barrier and just open up, then we get what we give. It’s what I said a little bit earlier. If you give this, you’re likely to get [00:43:00] it in return. So if I give you this compassion, this love, this non-judgmental, approach, then I’m likely to get that in return.

Because as much as, you know, criminals say, okay, I’m the criminal, but you’re a cop. And there’s, that’s the wall is here. Not, no, no, no. Let’s just chisel this wall away. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Let’s just, you know, I’m a person, you’re a person. I’ve got a job, you’ve got a job. You know, that kind of stuff. Right? Yeah. I think that goes a long way.

Yeah, for

Gissele: sure. It’s, it’s interesting to me, you know, that we always attribute people’s hurtful behavior as who they are, right? Like, you know, this person is toxic, this person is hurtful, he is a, you know, but when we hurt other people, we say, well, this is my behavior. It’s not who I am. Right? At least you don’t wanna believe that’s who you are, but we don’t give people the same benefit of the doubt.

and so one of the things that I like to talk about is, is that it’s, our behavior is not who we are, [00:44:00] right? So we behave in different ways, and we all have the capacity to choose to behave in hurtful ways. We have to choose. To act in different ways. We, like, for me, I have to ch I choose loving compassion every day.

I don’t always get it right, but I choose it. And, and I make that conscious choice, like putting on my, you know, I’m gonna put on my mindset today. Yeah. and so, and I think that’s what people don’t realize, because when people start to feel like you mentioned homelessness, when people start to feel like they’re viewed a specific way, they adopt that identity and they don’t believe they can change.

Yes. And I think that’s the, that’s the challenge.

Paul: That’s, it’s, I love what you just said there. True. It’s so true. I, if you’re in a dark hole mm-hmm. , and this is what you become familiar with, then it’s learned helplessness. Yeah. You learn to adapt to this environment. I can never get out of here, you know?

Mm-hmm. , I can’t, I can’t. This is who I am. I’m just [00:45:00] unlovable. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m broken. And this is what I, I become conditioned to. And it’s like the experiments that were done on, on dogs years ago, which, they, they would bring a dog into a cage that was electrified. And, so the bottom was electrified.

There was a, a little tunnel leading out of the, the cage. Mm-hmm. into an un electrified, box or, or a cage. And the dogs would come in and they would, the, the experimenters, the scientists were watching, and the dogs would jump up and jump up, and some of them would see the, the way out, and they would go and they were safe.

But to those who were in that panic mode, and they just kept jumping and jumping and jumping, what they noticed was after, maybe a few hours or whatever that the, the dog would become conditioned to, their environment would lie down. And this became the reality. It’s like being. An abusive relationship, somebody who is the victim of domestic violence, it happens so often that they, they don’t [00:46:00] see the way out and they, they think, this is just my life as a kid.

When I was being abused by my dad, I didn’t see a way out. That was just my life. Everybody must have this. And I, I remained in that state of mind. Mm-hmm. , because I didn’t know any better. And so your point about, you know, how people, adapt, to this, how they learn to become helpless and to adapt to the environment that they were thrown into or, or whatever circumstance got them there.

But they’re there and they say, well, there’s nothing more I can do. Well, there is, and we, we know because we can reach out to people, who can shine their light into us. Leonard Cohen, the great musician. Mm-hmm. he’s passed and a great Canadian musician, hallelujah was his song, right? Mm-hmm. . He wrote a song back in the nineties called Anthem, and I love this, this lyric from it.

He said, there’s a crack in everything, but that’s how the light gets through. Mm-hmm. , and we’ve all had our [00:47:00] cracks and our breaks. Some people have had our breaks. We, we have a light within us that we can pour out of our cracks into the cracks of others to support them. And equally they can do that. So let’s be open to receiving the, the guidance, the encouragement, and the help of others and let’s go and mimic that behavior and give it to other people.

Cuz we’re not broken folks. We can, we can take those pieces and we can, we can solder them with gold, which is something the Japanese used to do. Yeah. And just made it, I love that heart. Stronger. You are it. And start believing that you are and you will become what you believe. Yeah.

Gissele: Ah, thank you for sharing that.

one of the things that I have found in my journey, and I know in the people that I work with, is the, the fact that they really have a hard time. They can’t. have that level of non-judgment or acceptance or openness or curiosity until they do that for [00:48:00] themselves. Until they’re able to, hold space for their difficult emotions to have, love and compassion for their anger and all of those frustration emotions.

And when they start to love themselves and, and fill up their cup or put their own oxygen mask on first, then, and only then can they be open and curious about other people and to be able to do that. what do you think the role of forgiveness is, in terms of being able to, to help us with some of those difficult emotions like anger or shame or guilt like, and how has forgiveness helped you in your journey?

Paul: Forgiveness is not always easy to to give. Right? Yeah. Forgive for, oh yeah, for the giving. Forgiveness is for the giving. Mm-hmm. , you know, so I’m going to give you this, this, this idea that, the transgressions or whatever has happened, they’ve happened and let’s just leave them behind. The rule of forgiveness really is to.

Recognize again, that we’re more similar than we are [00:49:00] different from other people. So everybody’s going through their hell, everybody’s got a cross to carry, and, and sometimes they don’t know how to handle it. And so they’ll, they’ll say something or do something to you that you’ll take personally and, and you’ll take this in and say, wow, I’m not that way.

And oh gosh, why would you ever say that? I, I feel so broken. Well, you’re giving them permission to hurt you. You just like get Roosevelt said. Don’t give them that. Don’t give them the satisfaction. Recognize that they may be going through something that you have no idea about.

You know, I walk down the street and, and there’s dozens of people in the downtown area here and everyone’s got a story and somebody may be the victim of sexual abuse at home. Another person may have lost a loved one. Someone may have just lost their job. Other people are gonna lose their homes. And I just have to look around and all, everything is happening to these people.

So if something happens where a [00:50:00] person is mean to me, or they intend to be mean to me again, let me reframe the, the, the thing. They’re not mean to me. Like nobody can break my heart. I, I do that on my own. Mm-hmm. , nobody can hurt my feelings. they didn’t hurt my feelings. You hurt my feelings. No, no, no, no, no.

I hurt my feelings. I’m the one who chose to feel this way. It’s my responsibility. And a lot of people say, well, I have this relationship and he broke my heart. Or she broke my heart. No, no, no, no, no. Nobody did that. They didn’t go in and crack your heart open mm-hmm. and did that to yourself. It’s the way in which you, you chose to attach meaning to this and not.

Choosing the right way to look at things. So forgiveness, we owe it to ourselves and we owe it to others because we’re humans and we’re, we’re imperfect people living in an imperfect world. But the way in which we, we bring this imperfection to the world makes it that much more perfect because we get to choose the best [00:51:00] versions of ourselves.

And by forgiving others, we can also forgive ourselves because we’re, I look at my past and I’ve hurt people, and I, I didn’t mean to, and maybe it was unintentional, maybe it was intentional, but I had to go back mm-hmm. And just truly ask for that forgiveness. And once I had asked for their forgiveness, I had to then forgive myself.

Mm-hmm. , there’s this beautiful, Hawaiian prayer. It’s,I’m sorry. Please forgive me. Its the Ho’oponopono, that’s it. That’s it. Yes. Yes. I’ve

Gissele: used it. Yeah. It

Paul: works. Yeah. Oh my goodness. I used it. yes. And it works, and tears will actually pour. Mm-hmm. You. Mm-hmm. And it’s just beautiful. So Yes. Ask for forgiveness and forgive yourself.

So,

Gissele: yeah. Yeah. The, the hoon, I always, I don’t always pronounce it right. Theono Pono, I think it’s what it’s called. Yeah. Ho

Paul: Oko. Oh,

Gissele: yeah. Like, it’s, I’m sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you. I love you. Mm-hmm. . I’ve used it with myself and I’ve used it with other people that [00:52:00] I have. Yes. I felt like I have harmed.

Yeah. and so, yeah. Yeah. I, I did wanna ask you kind of a leaning question. Sure. and that is, were you able to find out your dad’s story as to how he became, like how he, kind of got to that point where he was so hurtful?

Paul: Yes. And that again, you know, I, I, I’m a work in progress. Gissele , we all are, we all are

We all are. And, and I’m always learning different things. And for the longest time, yeah, I think I had a hard time forgiving my father. And then I realized, you know, he even had it worse than I did cuz his father used to, he was a, a violent alcoholic as well. And they lived in, in Quebec, in, in, the northern part of Quebec, in rural area.

And, I remember my, my grandmother’s stories about how she had to take the children, my father included, and run out in mid-winter to a barn several hundred feet away where she had [00:53:00] clothes and food stashed because, my grandfather had a rifle and was going to shoot them. Because in a, in a drunken state, and I can only imagine how, how my father was treated and broken.

People often break people. we, we talked about that earlier. Hurt people. Hurt people. And I don’t think my father ever had the, that was years and years ago. There wasn’t therapy as, as easily accessible as it is now. There wasn’t anybody who would listen and you had to keep your story to yourself. , you know, if you were in, in a good Christian home or, or Catholic home, you don’t go tell everybody your stuff.

Mm-hmm. , you just keep it to yourself. You’d be a big boy. You don’t cry and you just suck it up. And, you know, I imagine that that years of, of abuse in my father, he just couldn’t handle it. he had a mental condition. He just couldn’t handle it. And I do believe that, yeah, his illness is, is what contributed to, the [00:54:00] abuse that we suffered.

So once I realized that everybody’s got a story, remember everybody’s got a story. Why is it that they’re behaving this way? I think I understand now. You know what, dad, I forgive you and, you know, I, I, I’m so sorry for everything that you went through mm-hmm. , because I can’t imagine what your life was like and yeah.

There was, I

Gissele: realized something interesting as you were talking. It’s so funny that your dad was terrorized by his father. You know, he terrorized you and you went into terrorism, you know, when you went to study like terrorism, it’s very healing. That’s, that’s a really, that’s what came across my mind.

I’m like, oh, because to live in that circumstance must been terrorizing. Like, to be constantly in that fear, in that, in that environment of like, your home is not safe and therefore internally you don’t feel safe. No. and so, yeah, I can only imagine that, that that kind of, that, terrorism at home, right?

Like that, can be a [00:55:00] very, wow. It can be very frighten.

Paul: It, it is for a lot of people and we just gotta realize that, we, we have to examine, and, and not just, accept we have to really, use our minds and question. Mm-hmm. , this is not my life. Yeah. I don’t have to stay here. Mm-hmm. I’m in this abusive home.

I don’t have to, I’m in this abusive relationship. I don’t have to, I am, you know, I’m conditioning myself to, to reach for the bottle, to pour away, all of my, my sadness and stuff. No, you don’t have to, you know, life is full of choices and you are not your circumstances. You define your circumstances, so, yeah.

Mm-hmm. . . Oh yeah.

Gissele: Yeah. And the other thing I was thinking about as well was that, it’s interesting, a lot of like, it, it seems to be like there’s huge shift that’s happening, in consciousness and in in awareness, you know? And, and people that, you know, were alive during the time of war. There was a lot of scarcity.

There was a lot of fear. my parents’ generations didn’t believe in therapy. Like, you don’t tell anybody [00:56:00] your business,

You know, what will people think? And there was all of this value in external, like what people perceived and all of this misconceptions. And now when you see this newer generation that wanting to talk about mental health, wanting to, addressing, wanting to talk about loving ourselves and loving each other,

you know, I believe, and I could be wrong, so correct me if I’m wrong, that one of the things you had mentioned in your TED Talk was about the power of belief and believing that we can get there.

I was wondering if you can, talk a little bit about how belief can help us, hopefully, create a more loving and compassionate world.

Paul: Absolutely. Again, another wonderful, brilliant question, but yes. You know, when we start to believe in ourselves and, and I, I spoke about my grade seven pivot moment, that moment that shifted everything for me.

I started to believe in myself.

when you start to believe in yourself, like the grade seven pivot moment for me where I started to imagine.

I was not [00:57:00] a loser and I could do things and I could accomplish things, and then I pushed myself. Belief helps you to push and open the envelope, and the more that you believe in something and you do your very best to make it happen, the more successful you will you will be. So if we believe in the goodness of others, we’re going to approach them with goodness, and we’re going to bring this, this energy out.

And. They’ll receive the energy that we give. And so we could really make a change in this world if only we sat down and started to listen to each other’s differences. Because you, you can imagine if we were all the same, we’re not, we’re born in a particular country. we’re given, a religious belief often, you know, by, by where we were born and beliefs of the community or the country or whatever.

And they, they may not coincide with your own, but they are entitled to their beliefs. And just as much as I am, I, I can’t, I can’t say somebody, well, you can’t [00:58:00] believe that. Come on. You know, like, you can’t possibly believe that that’s wrong. Well, it’s my opinion, right? In my opinion. And. What is it? Two bucks or five bucks?

We’ll get you a coffee. You know, like it’s, everybody’s got one. But, no, the belief is strong. It’s like, I believe I can lose 15 pounds and I truly believe it. Now, what must I do to make that belief a reality? I must do the work. I must exercise. I must change my, my eating habits. I’ll go fasting. I’ll do this and I’ll do that cuz I believe in it.

I see it, I visualize what it’s going to be like. I see myself 15 pounds lighter or 50 pounds lighter or whatever. I see myself getting that job. I see myself getting that date. Whatever it is, when you start to believe and you, you, you make it happen because you manifest it. And your, your belief system is one in which you will not accept anything lower.

Mm-hmm . If you are truly [00:59:00] committed, then you will make it happen. And I’m a believer in that, I, I believe that there are so many wonderful opportunities out there. I tell this in, in many of my talks. I say, I do not want to be visited by the ghost of missed opportunities on my deathbed . When I’m on my deathbed.

I don’t want these ghosts coming in and going, you know, Paul, we whispered something in your ear mm-hmm. , that you could write a book and you kept saying, no, no, no. Mm-hmm. , let me show you what it would’ve been like if you would’ve written that book, or if you would’ve asked this person out, or if you would’ve become this that you wanted to become, but you never tried.

I don’t wanna be visited by those ghosts that make me feel bad about the life that I’ve lived. I wanna be visited by the ghost of rock and roll, who go, dude, that was so awesome. What are we gonna do next time to come? This is great. Yeah. What’s next? What’s next? What’s, this was a ride, man. What ride are you taking us on next?

Mm-hmm. . That’s

why,

Gissele: what, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You mentioned manifestation. Also a big believer in manifestation. I think where people get tripped up [01:00:00] though is when they don’t see it, right? So you set your intention and you’re like, yeah, I’m gonna ride all, you know, all these things. I’m gonna do all these amazing things in, where is it?

And so the belief has to be strong enough. Your vision has to be strong enough. And that’s the, the thing that I felt from you. You don’t take no for an answer, which is you stop paying attention to what is not out there, and you hold onto the vision and then it comes into alignment. But a lot of, like a lot of us, and I say we, because we’re interconnected, we’ll say, well, it’s not there, therefore it’s not a reality.

Oh well, , right? And in this environment where we are with, you know, instant gratification, we expect our manifestations to be just there when we desire them. But if we manifested everything we thought we could create some chaos for ourselves, , some real negativity. So it’s kind of a blessing that we don’t, but I love how you said about, you know, hold onto your vision and stick to that vision and don’t take anything less than your vision.

Because then, then you won’t get visited [01:01:00] by that ghost that’s saying

Paul: Yes. And there’s, there’s a bunch of ghosts that will visit you. But , you know, for me it’s, it’s a matter of, of trying and, and just visualizing and saying, I’m going to give this my best shot. And it may not happen. It may be that you’re giving it your best shot, but you just don’t have the talents and it’s okay.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , because those ghosts have missed opportunities, are not going to give you a hard time for having tried for having your best forward. And you may find something that was even better than the first thing that you tried. Mm. It may be maybe a relationship. Oh, nope, that one didn’t work out because it wouldn’t have worked out.

Yeah. We see this, but we’ve got this other person for you. And whatever it is that, that belief, that manifestation, it takes work. It’s not gonna happen overnight in many cases. Mm-hmm. and for me, writing the books, I had no desire to write a book. Mm-hmm. . And people kept saying, Paul, you got such interesting stories, you gotta write a book.

And I said, no, no, [01:02:00] no. And then I found myself in 2013, just in between jobs and thinking, what am I gonna do? And I don’t like to have idle time on my hands. It just, yeah. it, it’s lonely when you have that. Right. And so I thought, why am I, yeah. Yeah. So this whisper came to me, Gisele, it was a whisper, and it said, write a book.

And I, I listened and I said, get away. You know, like, and then mm-hmm. , the whisper became louder. And I do believe that we, we have whisperers. And this whisper was loud enough that I, I, I thought I said okay. How do I do this? So I went to a bookstore and I picked up a book on how to write a book, . And

Gissele: that’s so great.

That’s what they’re there

Paul: for. Yes. But here’s the thing, read the whole book. I only read 40 pages , and I thought I knew Good year. I thought I knew it, and so I started to write. But the thing was, and here’s the big. Is that I was not committed in the very beginning. I would write for an hour, I’d leave it for two weeks, I’d come back, I’d write [01:03:00] for another hour and a half, maybe two hours, cause I was bored.

And then I would come back three weeks later and I’d look at it, and this was a pattern because I, I didn’t want it bad enough. Ask yourself, how bad do you want it? Mm-hmm. , how bad do you want to achieve this? Are you ready to put the work into it? And I remember after about eight, nine months, may, you know, even a year, I had a bunch of writing that didn’t look anything like a book.

Mm-hmm. . And I had to go back and read from the very beginning to where I left off. And that could be 50, 60 pages just to catch up to where I was. And I thought, are you committed or not? Is this gonna happen or not? Paul, how bad do you want it? And so I wanted to be accountable. Mm-hmm. . So I went to social media, Facebook, and I thought, okay, I’m gonna do this.

I’m gonna type out, I’m writing a book. and I pushed the send button and I shared it, and, I thought nobody’s gonna say anything. And then I got about 20 people saying, it’s about time. Can’t wait. . [01:04:00] So there’s my accountability, when’s it coming out? And then I put a date on it and I became a committed writer, which meant that I sat down for four and a half, five hours a day, and I wrote at least one or two sentences that popped out that resonated, and then I completed it.

And had I never listened to that, to that whisper, I wouldn’t have, I, I self-published my first book and I thought, okay, it’s out there. I’ve done it. I’ve, I I did it, I’m done. Yeah. Yeah. But then, As, as this, this world can suddenly change everything for you. Yeah. And in a, in a New York second, your life can change.

It’s for the better. And you gotta have this faith, this, this beautiful faith. Mm-hmm. , one of the 40 people who bought my book, turned out to be an editorial director for Harper Collins, one of the biggest publishing houses. Amazing. Yes. Yeah. And he invited me for coffee and I said yes. [01:05:00] And, he pulls out my book and he slides it on the table and he says, we wanna publish this worldwide.

And I said, yes, you do. Yes, you do. And the, the contract was, was created and now the book is available worldwide. But let’s believe in this, this thing, this faith. Let’s have faith that, that the world is conspiring for us. Paranoia is the belief that the world is conspiring against you. Pronoia. It’s opposite is to believe that the world is conspiring for you.

When you start to believe that the world is conspiring for you, every good thing is gonna happen. Your life will change because your energy will be broadcast and you’ll be attracting what you give out. Remember, you get what you give. And if I have this belief in myself that, Hey, I’m gonna make this happen.

How bad do you want it? I want it real bad enough. Give you a small example. I have a guitar here in my home. Mm-hmm. . And I’ve had it for about 30 years and. Collecting dust . I [01:06:00] wanted to learn how to play it, and it was hard and I thought I wasn’t committed. Yeah. I didn’t want it bad enough, so I never learned how to play it.

But those things that I want bad enough, oh my goodness, you ain’t gonna stop me. I’m gonna make it happen. Mm-hmm. , I, I, you know, if the door is closed, I’m gonna take a chainsaw. Just break it down, you know, I’m gonna get to where I wanna be because I can, and each and every one of your listeners can do the same.

Mm-hmm. , the moment that you have that belief, which you talked about so beautifully yourself, is that belief is, is not enough. It takes work. And if you are looking at it and saying it’s not happening fast enough. , examine yourself. Mm-hmm. Socrates said, an unexamined life is a life not worth living. And from time to time, and I, I write about this, I, I say from time to time, every two weeks or so, in the very beginning, take a sheet of paper and just put a, a line through it.

And on the one side, write down the things that are working in your life and on the other side, write the things that are not [01:07:00] working on your life. And then be brutally honest with yourself when you take a look at the things that aren’t working. This relationship is not working. Am I doing my part or is it a relationship that I need?

Whatever is not working well, I’m, I’m 50 pounds overweight. Okay, well, how bad do you want it? Are you going to put the label that I’m. To do what it takes to make that that change where I can put the things that’s not working from that list onto what’s working. Mm-hmm. and remember this, Lao Tzu, said the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Mm-hmm. . And I’ve added to that. The idea is that we keep moving forward, we keep taking those steps. So the journey of wherever you wanna be begins with you taking the first step and then the second and then the third, learn how to run, learn how to master that course because it’s your course to master.

And that’s what I would have to say about that as first got would say. And that’s all I got to say about.

Gissele: And that is a beautiful, beautiful way to end the podcast. so final [01:08:00] question is where can people find you? Tell us about your books. Tell us about your websites so that people can go check you up.

Paul: you bet. Thank you so much for that. Yes. You can reach me if you just Google my name, Jay Paul Naau, or Paul Naau. I’ll, I’m. In several places on the internet. My website, I have two j paul nado.com and that will bring you to my website. I’m a keynote speaker and, and I love doing that. I’ve had a great year speaking, so you can, you can reach me that way.

My email address is there. You can reach me that way. inspire us is my podcast and just, yes. easiest way go to the web, Paul Nadeau, or J Paul Nadeau. You’ll see. You’ll see everything. Yes. And

Gissele: your books are available on Amazon and anywhere where people purchase books.

Paul: Pretty much. Yes. yep. my, my first book, which, I called it Hostage to myself, but Harper Collins, called it Take Control of Your Life.

It’s available in many, many bookstores across, north America and it’s available everywhere. You can buy books online. [01:09:00] And the other one is available through Amazon. I’ve got two. One is, dam, just ask. It teaches people . Yeah. Dam. Just ask. A lot of people don’t ask for what they want in life. Yeah. That they’re afraid.

The fear, I go into another topic. It takes

Gissele: courage. It takes courage because all the limiting beliefs come up and then you go, oh, maybe not. Right.

Paul: So it takes courage. Exactly. Exactly. So this book will teach you how to get that, that courage damages out. It’ll teach you how to negotiate. The other book I have is, the Badass Guide to Conflict Resolution, how to Deal with Conflict.

Cause a lot of people look at conflict and they avoid it. Conflict is opportunity. It’s an opportunity to create a better relationship to understand that other person gets back into the talk. So I, I’ll end it there. But you know, when you look at conflict through a different lens, you look at it as an opportunity to really listen to the other person, Stephen Covey said, seek first to understand and then to under, to be understood.

And if you carry that into your work, as a [01:10:00] salesperson, as a negotiator, listen to the other side first. Listen to the person you’re in conflict with. Maybe it’s a loved one that you’re arguing with. You shut your mouth. Listen to what they have to say. Ask and and then speak and when you understand. So

Gissele: that’s me.

I love that conflict is an opportunity for us to come closer

Paul: together. It is. It’s to build a bridge to really understand. Well imagine. Soldiers at, at war, and they’re faced with conflict all the time. They may be even in conflict with the people that they, they, they’re, trooped with mm-hmm. . And yet they’re sup They’re going to help each other.

They’re gonna listen to each other, they’re going to get through it, and they become closer because of the conflict. And, and that’s how real relationships, can be developed by understanding the other person and looking for the opportunity to get to know you better. What is it that you’re struggling?

What is it that I’ve said or I’ve done that makes you feel this way? Can we talk about this? I really wanna understand your side, and I, I, I will not say anything. I will not judged you. I’m just gonna shut up and [01:11:00] listen to you. , you speak first. Mm-hmm. And then, yeah. So thank you.

Gissele: Yeah. Thank you so much. And thank you to everyone don’t forget to, tune in for another episode with a Love and Compassion podcast with Gisele. Thank you.

Paul: Thank you, Giselle. It’s been an

Gissele: absolute pleasure.

Thanks. Oh, me too. Thank you so much for being on the show. .

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Transcript:Gissele: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Gissele. . we believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world.

so don’t forget to subscribe for more amazing content. On today’s podcast, we’ll be discussing how yoga can help us heal and love ourselves. And our guest is the incredible Echo Giselle Winer, and who has, extensively qualified and a certified yoga teacher. And she’s also the host of the Echo Yoga YouTube channel, which is obviously available on YouTube, which is actually where I found her in doing, a lot of her, yoga.

I was looking on her website to how to describe her. And I encountered this beautiful, I guess little poem that I think also introduces the other non 3D aspect of her, which I’m gonna read a little bit of, if you don’t mind, echo, which is, I am not, I am not my body. I am not the texture, temperature, smell, sound, [00:01:00] or color of my body.

I am the vibration, the frequency, the intangible, knowing, unknown, the depth of my glare as I stare into your eyes, that is where you will find me. The story that comes from my mouth will not paint a picture of my essence where truth is wordless and indescribable. But tell me a story anyways, and let me tint your ear with enchanting poetry.

Welcome echo.

Echo: Thank you

for having me.

Gissele: Thank you so much for coming on the show. This is a real pleasure for me. I wanted to, I was wondering if you could begin, with the audience, by sharing with them how you got to be on this journey. whatever you wanna share in terms of really finding, kind of a hallmark space with yoga.

Wow. ,

Echo: like what didn’t lead me to this journey? I think that’s the [00:02:00] truth of it. What didn’t lead me to this journey? you know, in the, the simplicity of that answer. Is, you know, I think, I think that life is yoga and that’s the beauty of yoga. I think we get confused sometimes on, on yoga being the asana, the physical postures being this, this workout.

But there’s so much more to yoga. And of course you would know that. And for me, I didn’t know that when I first started the journey. It was very much a physical practice that was used in a way to work with my physical body. And I’m so glad that I found myself on that journey because I had a coach that said, You know, you should really try yoga.

You need to calm down, you need to meditate, you need to breathe, and you need to just be. And I remember thinking, of course, I’m breath. I’m breathing right now, like I don’t need somebody to coach me how to breathe. And I remember finding that part of yoga very annoying and it was too still for me, and there [00:03:00] wasn’t enough movement.

And what I found over my time of just being on the yoga mat and learning to breathe and learning to tune into the more subtleties that I was actually quite numb most of my life, that I was quite disassociated from my body, and that I needed a lot of stimulation to feel alive. I needed a lot of distraction to stay in my body.

and what unfolded on my yoga mat in the first years was profound because it was so unexpected. I wasn’t looking for a spiritual experience. I was looking to simply have a nice flat stomach and to stretch my body. And what I found was like this essence of God or truth or source, or whatever you want to call it, but something unfolded on the yoga mat that led me back to myself in a way that I had never experienced before.

And I’m still on that journey, you know, 17 years later. And it’s been profound, and I’m constantly a [00:04:00] student every day again and again, beginning, beginning, beginning, and realizing like, yeah, every single thing has led to this point. Every single part of my life has led me to this path of yoga.

Gissele: Yeah. Oh, that’s such a beautiful answer.

And I think when you were talking, I think you just, you described, I know that I resonated with that, having had my own journey and being in that spot where, you know, you don’t realize that you’re not breathing, you are holding your breath a lot of the time. And there’s so many people right now in the world holding their breath, you know, taking shallow breaths and, and not really wanting to be in their body, in their space, just looking for distractions.

and from that perspective, yoga can be so, healing. so one of the things that you mentioned is your talk about the essence of yoga. What do you think that, what do you say the essence of yoga is?

Echo: Hmm. The essence of yoga, I think, or I feel, I feel the essence of yoga [00:05:00] is presence and it’s truthfulness and presence is, is like the biggest gift that we can give to anybody.

It’s the biggest gift that we can give to ourselves and it’s so rare. In our lives, society has us in transactions. We’re so transactional. We’re constantly purchasing and consuming and acquiring, and it leaves so little space to just be and to be present. And that’s, that’s really what has brought me again and again to the mat when I lose my way.

And sometimes even being a yoga teacher and offering classes online and having this whole space and this platform around yoga, I find myself wandering for my yoga mat or my meditation cushion, and something inside feels imbalanced and I feel anxious or I have energy in me that I’m not able to guide in a skillful way.

And I, I get curious like what’s happening right now, and each time it’s a lack of [00:06:00] presence. And that’s what leads me back to the yoga mat or leads me back to the philosophy of yoga, or the meditation or the breadth of it is simply echo. You’re not being present. Go be present. And so that brings me back to the path over and over again.

Gissele: And that’s, really great. one of the things that I know that, I’ve heard for all my listeners is that, being fully present can be, can feel scary, because there is, a whole bunch of fears or unaddressed emotions, un felt feelings, and that sometimes that can feel really overwhelming. I think people don’t know how to be truly present in the moment, and especially if they’ve got a lot of negative thinking.

what can help those people kind of, embark on the journey towards greater.

Echo: I think slowing down and moving step by step. We think that we need to, if we’re gonna go on this spiritual path or we’re going to go practice yoga, that we immediately need to [00:07:00] be absorbed into the world of it. So our day is like every day we’re doing yoga, we’re meditating, we’re reading yoga philosophy, we’re chanting the sutra, and true, truly just giving ourselves spaciousness to.

Really sit in what we don’t know yet and what doesn’t feel comfortable, and choosing just one thing for a moment that doesn’t feel comfortable and pushing our edges slowly. It’s like we want to push the edges past the fray to get to the finish line immediately, almost as if we’re in our job or we’re in a relationship or we’re consuming a product.

And that’s, And yoga tells you like, Hey, just like, wait, be patient. Like it comes with time. And so I think for anyone with that overwhelm or that frustration of so much coming up, it’s like just be with what comes up, step by step and create boundaries and create the safety and the containers that you need in order to really.

Go within yourself to just be, with what comes up. And don’t try to solve it all. [00:08:00] Like it. You don’t need to solve it, and don’t if you can, try not to go to somebody to ask them to solve it for you either. Just let it be unknown. Let yourself be confused. Let yourself be a bit frustrated and taken aback by it, and just observe, become like the sharp witness to your experience and your reactions to life

Gissele: and, and what helps you in those moments.

because the unknown can be scary, right? What helps you really sit with the unknown and not let your mind just take you to the worst case scenario?

Echo: my breath. Honestly, like my favorite mantra, and I say this in all my yoga classes, so if you’ve done them, you’ve heard me, but I consistently am telling myself throughout the day, Breathing in, I’m aware that I’m breathing in, breathing out.

I’m aware that I’m breathing out. And anytime I’m overwhelmed in public on a bus, in traffic, in a confrontation, I close my eyes and I come back to that because [00:09:00] that brings me back into presence. And when I’m present, I generally am not overwhelmed when I’m really present. Because when I come out of presence, then comes the anxiety.

When I come out of presence, then comes the numbness. But if I’m fully present and I’m doing that mantra of breath, that’s all that I can focus on. That’s the only thing that exists in that moment. And then I can just fully breathe for my belly and take those full diaphragmatic breaths that bring me back into my body.

Yeah,

Gissele: and and I love that because for me, the gift of that has been. The awareness of the abundance that exists, like in the abundance of breath. I don’t have to think about the breath is just there for me supporting my life. And, and, and it reminds me of that, that, full support that I feel I receive from the universe

Echo: source.

I think what you’re just, what you’re saying is so important to me to note on abundance because, [00:10:00] and this is taking a little bit of a tangent, but something that has created so much suffering in my own life, and I’m sure many people can relate to this, is the loss of love, the feeling of loss, period of intimacy, of deep connection, and something that I used to always believe.

Really in my core, before I really got onto this path was that when I lost someone or I lost a connection, that they walked away with the abundance. That whatever opened in me, the love that I had, the care that I had, once that person left in their body was no longer in the room, were close to me. Then I lost access to that abundance.

And something that one of my teachers once told me was, Echo, when you love and when you come out of relationship, like the abundance that you have in that, you don’t lose that. That’s what abundance is. Abundance is everywhere We are love, we are, we are everything. And so if somebody walks away from you or they leave you even in the most painful of ways, [00:11:00] you don’t lose that love.

Like you’re still abundant. They can be abundant. You can be abundant. That’s what abundance is. And so for me, This has been such an important lesson because even in the most melancholy and dark and heavy moments where the days are dark and the rain is just pouring and there’s thunder and there’s lightning, and I’m just so overwhelmed by my feelings, when I can come back to the breath, I can remind myself I’m safe here.

Like I close my eyes, I’m in my breath, and the breath is always there, and that is abundance and that is love. And that state is always there for me to take. No one can take that away from me no matter what happens, like that’s available to me always.

Gissele: So beautifully said. And I think loss is something that we all, work through, right?

whether it be the loss of a relationship, it’d be, you know, the loss of, abundance like financial or the loss of like health or, you know, wellbeing or whatever. I [00:12:00] think we as a society, I think where as a collective we really are in that fear of loss, but like you said, when you come at it from a place of there is no loss in the universe, nothing’s ever created or destroyed, and it’s always like in this abundance, it’s always accessible to us.

It does make us feel safer. It does make us feel more supported, which I think is important, at least has been important in my journey.

Echo: Yeah, and I mean, yoga really kind of creates the pathway to befriending and coming into a lover ship with your body. Like truly your vessel becomes your sanctuary. It becomes your church, you know, your mosque, whatever you may want to call it, it’s your holy place.

And that little rectangle that you have when you roll out your yoga mat, it, it is your home. It’s, it’s your holy place. And so I really treat that space when I’m there as like, this is my time with all of Myselves and my body, and to know myself [00:13:00] deeper, my higher self, my little self, my inner child, my protectors, my managers, all the parts of me exist there in that moment.

And it’s like the great meeting of the family that is like me, the universe that is me unfolds on that space. And you just fall into this deep, Yeah. This deep, deep lover ship with everything that is you. And I

Gissele: think that comes across in, in the videos that you post on your YouTube channel. You know, one of the things I, that I love most about your videos is that, they’re so loving and welcoming in the sense that, you’re not striving for perfection.

In fact, you see the perfection in each moment, so you can hear, you know, like the families in the background and you can hear the animals and the birds and the, and I think that is so beautiful because so often we try to manufacture this image of perfection rather than really allowing the perfection already exists in each and every moment to, to [00:14:00] flourish and to really be seen.

actually, it’s one of my favorite parts when you can hear all the different sounds and just kind of integrate them into your practice.

Echo: Yeah, it’s, it’s strange to me these days with the online world, we take the humanity out of our, our experiences and we become products.

And I don’t wanna be a product, you know, I’m an ally to people by putting these posts online and. When I first started posting classes, it was more of I, I didn’t really imagine what it would become or that people would actually watch it. It was more of a, Here I’ll put my classes online. I have somewhat of a portfolio to show or treat centers when I’m traveling the world of what it is that I teach.

And it can be a reference for them. And it took on a life of its own. And I think the reality of it, I make mistakes all the time. Like, I don’t know how many times I’ve pushed. Yeah, I’ve pushed record and I said, Hi, my name is yoga. Instead of saying I’m Echo, or how many times I’ve sung out of tune or, you know, made [00:15:00] weird, loud sounds with my breath.

And I think that when other human beings are watching these videos at home doing yoga, already feeling a bit maybe insecure or not seen or acknowledged and fearful of going into a yoga space, that’s perfect and beautifully manicured and. Everybody is doing the postures this perfect way. It gives them the permission to just be themselves, to have their cup of tea, to come into child’s pose if they need to.

And it’s more like, you know, doing yoga with a friend. Like we’re sitting beside each other. And I’ve had many people say that. They’re like, Oh, it’s like, you’re just right there with me. And so I don’t want the professional lighting and like the perfect audio and blinking everything out. It’s like you’re, you’re wherever I’m, wherever I’m at, you’re practicing with me.

If I’m staying in a tent, we’re gonna do yoga by the tent. If I’m staying in a pent house, you’re gonna do yoga with me in the penthouse. It’s like, maybe we’re gonna be by a river, maybe we’re gonna be by a barn. Who knows? .

Gissele: Yeah. And, and you know, I think that’s one of my,[00:16:00] favorite aspects of it is that it’s from what I perceive to be a level of self-kindness and self-loveit’s okay, you just accept yourself.

You just fully are in that moment, in acknowledging that part so that you can allow that to, to go. and I think so often we shame ourselves into perfection and thinking that it has to be perfect, otherwise I will not be acceptable or somebody will think I’m not professional. but I think the journey towards getting acceptance is really accepting ourselves.

Echo: I mean, that becomes your super power if you can love yourself and you can accept yourself. You’re a dangerous person to a society that wants you to fit into a certain box. And that’s something that I’ve learned over the years as well, is that at this point I am like so madly in love with, with who I’ve gotten to know myself to be and the inner workings of my universe.

And I could spend the rest of my life just in relationship to echo like, you know, the inner me. And I would be fascinated [00:17:00] and in awe of all of the things that exist within me and the things that are possible and the capabilities and what I can learn. And so now I don’t need so much to seek outside myself for others’ approval or validation like I did need when I was younger.

And so when I come into connection with people, I can just freely be myself because I’m not trying to peacock for anyone. I’m not trying to impress anyone. I just show up as I am. And. I really, I really don’t care to be perfect anymore. Like I, I wanted to be seen a certain way, I think when I was younger and I wanted to be impressive, and now I just wanna be free.

And so I think this is what is so beautiful about how this kind of channel and the practices and my school has, taken shape. It’s given me so much freedom to really be myself, to work for myself and work in a way that doesn’t feel like work anymore. I’m able to bring the people that inspire me to teach with me on my trainings and to teach on my channel and to offer their [00:18:00] gifts to the world and allow them to be free, to be imperfect.

And I’ve said that to people before that have made comments on the channel about, This is too dark, or you shouldn’t have said this, or you shouldn’t have said that, you should edit this. And I just say, I’m not gonna do that. I’m a per, I’m a human, you know, I’m not a robot. And if you want somebody that’s going to be perfect, then this isn’t the channel for you.

And I’m perfectly happy with not being acceptable to some people and being acceptable to others. And I think that is, that creates so much freedom in your life. Mm.

Gissele: I think you’re right. I, I do agree with you that when you love you and fully accept yourself, you do become the most powerful being in the world because you are no longer giving your power away.

and so, yeah. So, but, and then that’s a journey, right? That’s the journey, I guess. Going back to the, the noises and I remember the Italian family that you could hear in the background, like I started to get curious about them. I’m like, Oh, I wonder what they’re like and, and what their day is.

You always hear them kind of [00:19:00] prowling around and you know, that was one of the ones that really stuck out with me. I’m like, Oh, cuz I guess my background’s Italian. And so I was like always listening for the, for the kids playing. And it always made me feel so joyful.

Echo: Oh, I love that. Yes. That Manolo Manolo, that’s, the place that I lived in Mexico, Manolo, he’d sometimes run into the yoga videos, which was really enjoyable as well.

Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I love that as a person has gone through their own journey of, of perfectionism and needing external validation. I think my journey has kind of taken an extraordinary turn in terms. Understanding that everything really comes from within in that, and really understanding the whole concept of true power.

What true power really is. And we so often, you know, idolize and lift up individuals that we perceive to be powerful and then don’t really acknowledge where true power really lies, which is in the individuals that are just quietly [00:20:00] being loving and compassionate and, and really, truly loving themselves, and therefore, that spills over to the whole of the world.

I

consider you one of those

Echo: people . Yeah. And yeah. And living in a world where you’re kind of taught to love yourself is to be selfish or to be, narcissistic. You know, this word gets turned around a lot and I think it’s important to be a bit selfish, and it’s important to be self centered at some points of like, my needs come first for me in my life.

You know, Who’s going to care for me more than me? And I think it’s important that we give ourselves that, right? You know, we give ourselves the right to be number one in our lives, and then for our dharmic path or our purpose to be number two, and for our relationships to come third. You know, a lot of people put their relationships first and it’s like, okay, I’m in an intimate relationship.

You’re my universe now. And it’s like, no. Like I’m still getting to know the universe that I [00:21:00] am, you know, I don’t, I don’t have space to just give that up to. Melts into someone else. And we’re really taught by movies and books and songs to be codependent in nature and to give, to create our identity around our connection to tribe or our connection to others.

And I think it’s so important to first know yourself deeply. Make yourself, number one, make your work. Number two, work that you’re really passionate about. And then comes the tribal aspect, because then when you show up, it’s out of gratuitous love. Like once I love myself and I love my path, and I love what I’m doing.

When I come to you, I have so much love to give. That’s not transactional. You know, I’m not coming to because I need something from you to fill me up. I’m not trying to fuel myself with you. And we constantly even say, Relationships feed us. Does this feed me? I don’t wanna have to feed off of my friends and my lovers, you know?

That’s right. I don’t, I don’t wanna be a vampire. Yeah. I wanna, [00:22:00] I wanna show up and I wanna nourish these relationships. I don’t want to deplete them of their energy and life force

Gissele: thing. What you’re talking about is this unconditional love that when you are so full of that, that love within your vessel, it just, it, it overflows from you and you can give to people from your overflow without the need for them to be different or for them to give you something or for them to change.

and that they can feel like an, an overwhelming journey. Right. so my question to you is, what helped you be more like to fully, fully love and have compassion for yourself..

Echo: Well that I, that, that journey was a dark one, that’s for sure. And through love, through intimate love, erotic love, like the love of intimacy, I feel it was never the relationships in themselves that were so important.

It was the breakups. It was how I dealt with the breakups and the transition of the loss of the [00:23:00] person. And I had two significant breakups that really broke me. And interestingly enough, one of them was right at the beginning of my yoga journey. And I didn’t learn the lesson in that breakup that I could have.

Yeah. And so history repeated itself. And a few years ago I found myself in another really, really painful, portal in a relationship. And in. I was just so humbled to my knees. Essentially, I just was brought to my knees, and humbled in a way where I just felt so much pain. So, so much pain because I, what I realized was my desire to be in a loving relationship.

It actually always stemmed from being loved. I really wanted to be loved, but I didn’t want to love, I wanted to be loved. The aim was that the aim was, I want someone to love me. I wanna experience what it means to be loved. But the thing is, is if that’s what I’m going into a relationship desiring, I’m not [00:24:00] going with the gratuitous nature.

I’m going cuz I want something from you. And I didn’t realize that these relationships were transactional for me. And after being humbled and kind of broken down and feeling broken, I had to realize like I was never broken and your heart can never be broken and that I am resilient. And I was shown. The light essentially in the darkest night of the soul where I just had kind of given up and was in this victim mentality, feeling helpless, feeling sorry for myself, going through all of the things that we go through when we feel like everything has been taken from us.

And there was like this voice inside that was like, Get up, stop being dramatic. You’re catastrophizing, you’re not dying. Your heart is not broken. You have the ability to love. And what it taught me there was let your aim be to love and not to be loved. And you will find so much more love and you will feel the enjoyment of what it means to truly love without energetic hooks and [00:25:00] people.

And so for the last couple of years, that has been my practice of, I go into connections. And of course it’s beautiful when somebody stays for some time and you have a story together and there’s a journey. But I let people go, You know, I let them go if they need to go, if they have a journey, if their D path takes them somewhere.

I simply open my heart and I leave it open. I don’t contract because I don’t get what I want, and the love isn’t lost. It just transitions into different constellations. We think in relationships, okay, If we’re no longer intimate, this has to end. We have to break up even that word to break up. This is such a terrible terminology.

Like what do we have to break up? Like I wanna see this more as a, how do we continue this love, but in a different way? And so the relationships that I have now are more about, we transition from. Maybe it’s motherships, and intimacy to friendships, to kinship, to brother, to sisterly love [00:26:00] and we stay within the tribe.

And that love that’s unconditional cuz it’s like just because you leave and you go to have another relationship with somebody else and experience intimacy and our story is transitioning. I’m not gonna take my love from you. My heart is open to you. Like the door that exists here, that has opened to you in the room, that exists here.

It’s always there. And anytime you need to come, like you have a bed to rest in and I will be there to embrace you and hold you. My love is not conditional. So this has been powerful and painful. It’s been painful cuz most people don’t love this way and it would be nice to receive this of course, but me letting go of that surprisingly has invited it in in other ways where I do receive unconditional love.

It just looks a lot different than I thought it was gonna look when I was younger.

Gissele: Yeah, what you said was so, so powerful. In so many different ways. And I think what you’re opening up to, or, or [00:27:00] have opened up, for our audience is really a re knowing of love, not as something that is, is kind of from that zero sum game lack perspective that, you know, like, this person is the power to take away love or to give me love, or there’s so, so much love that I can go around.

I have to love this person, but not this person to one where love is unlimited, where, where you can open up the potential. So, so much love to be, love to, you know, offer yourself and have that love come back to you. and yeah, I, I think it’s an, an absolutely wonderful journey. when I realized that shift for myself, I, I thought it was.

I had a similar shift in terms of understanding that I didn’t need to go externally out. And I think my goal now is like, how can I be more loving? How can I be love? I’m not always there, . Mm-hmm. . And you know, when I have to meet myself where I’m at there when I’m not there. but the, the desire [00:28:00] is there

Echo: Yeah. Well what you just said is so beautiful. I love that. Like, that self-acceptance when you’re not there is also important of like, I’m a human and I’m imperfect and sometimes I want what I want and sometimes I want this, I want this person, I want this thing, I want it to love me in a certain way. And I think it’s really beautiful and vulnerable when we can say that.

And we don’t play games with each other. We’re not trying to get people to. We let people know like, Hey, this is what I need. This is what I want, this is what I long for. What are you able to to provide in that instance? And then maybe somebody says, Yeah, I feel the same way. I wanna provide that love for your, Maybe they say, That’s not what I feel in this space.

And then we can have choices. But like, kind of circling back, what I was gonna say before is this, is that whole idea, the new age, look at polyamory. To me, we’re all polyamorous. Like if you have two children, if you have two children, you love both of your children. That is [00:29:00] polyamorous to me, is just, you’re loving multiple people.

And what I find so sad is this suppressive nature that we have in our culture of, if I’m in a romantic relationship, I can’t possibly love anyone as much as I love this partner. But I, what I see in my relationships is I love my friends in a profound way that I also love my partners, but. The things that we experience together and the proximity that we have with each other, it’s different.

You know, there are things that I will do with my intimate lovers that I’m not gonna do with my friends, or I’m not gonna do with my parents, but I have so much love for each of them. And love is just love. Like love. When my heart is open, love is deep, and it’s profound and it’s warm, and I experience it in a certain way with many people.

And so this idea that we have to restrict ourselves and that we need to validate one another by saying no, the love I have for you is unique. And it’s not for anyone else, it’s just for you. We’re just [00:30:00] perpetuating kind of this helplessness into our relationships where we feel like we have to complete each other.

But if we could just be open and honest and say, I love everyone. You know, I love so many people, so many being so many things, and I choose you. I love you and I choose you. I choose you to share my daily connections with, This is where my proximity is. This is where my body is, this is where my heart is.

But also, I exist in so many places and I’m loving so many things simultaneously, and that doesn’t take away anything from you. So we get rid of that scarcity mindset of if I love over here, it takes away from you. It’s like, you’re not getting any cookies if I get cookies over here, .

Gissele: That’s right. That’s right.

But when you think about even the concept of marriage though, right? And I’m married, right? Like there’s an element of lack, right? There’s an element of I need this paper and I need this assurance and I need this. And so the whole structure itself and where it comes from, it [00:31:00] does come from that place.

And so I think we’ve kind of super imposed our ideas on what romantic relationship should look like without outcome. In mind without really truly understanding, number one, what love really means to us and how to love ourselves, and then being able to understand how we could fully love others. Right.

Echo: Yeah, I love that. I love, that’s so beautiful how you said that. Like even speaking to the fact that you’re married and seeing the limitations on the way that we experience things in the modern day world, like marriage doesn’t have to be restrictive. You know, because I, I read this the other day in a book.

It actually said, When we speak of marriage, we speak a lot more of what we’re not allowed to do, more than what we are allowed, which is really interesting. You know, it’s like you get this thing and you get to have this new experience, but the way that we explain it is what you’re not allowed to have instead of what is there.

And so it’d be so [00:32:00] beautiful if we were able to, to take away the limitations to things and create. new shifts in the way that we experience our relationships and we experience ourselves and love. Hmm.

Gissele: And I think that’s the purpose of these sorts of conversations, right? As you share your wisdom, it really does plant seeds in our audience to be able to play with these ideas, as my husband says, play with these ideas.

You know, as, as you know, as for the potential to change, for the potential to be open, to reimagine all of these structures and ideas. Not from the base of fear, but from a base of more loving and compassion. Kindness and curiosity. And curiosity and all the good things. Yeah. Yeah. I’d like to go back to, loving our bodies like cuz because yoga is, is, as you mentioned, there’s a spiritual component to it, but there’s also a physical aspect to it.

Mm-hmm. in those moments where it’s hard fi hard to find the pose, or it’s hard to bend and [00:33:00] move, what helps you Show up for yourself in a more loving way

Echo: yeah. Well interestingly enough, this is something I’ve been on the journey with in the last two years. I’m 38 now, so I’m getting closer to 40.

And the body is aging and things are changing. And what I could do, do so easily when I was 20 years old doing handstands and back flips and you know, getting into the splits and just kind of jumping around without warming up. It’s not as accessible for my body now and I’m a yogi, you know? And some people say, Wow, that’s really wild to imagine that you have those limitations.

And I’ve started to put that into my practices as well, that I’m filming online. And people will even write, Wow, you have body pain as well. I wouldn’t think that you would have body pain cuz you’re a yoga teacher. . And so I’m, I’m doing my best to be more authentic in that because I have something happening in the right side of my body from a snowboarding injury that exists in like the pure foremass and my, my right glute [00:34:00] need that’s deep and it’s like this cing hot kind of pain that happens a lot when I’m doing forward folds and I have an asymmetry in my body because I have scoliosis, so my right leg is longer.

Then my left leg. And as you get older, those asymmetries become heightened in a way. Your body gravity is pressing. And so I have to be so much more aware of how I’m moving my body now. And in a way, it’s such a gift because I’m noticing when I’m on the yoga mat, I am starting to move more intuitively instead of the practices that I was taught when I was younger from Ashtanga and from Biro and from Iyengar, to be very strict.

And this is the posture, and it has to be equal on each side. You need to really intuitively think, okay, if this side is less open than this side, maybe I stay on this side for a minute longer. You know, if I have a, if I have an extension on this side, my right leg is longer. Do I need to extend my foot a little bit [00:35:00] further up the mat so I can bend deeper into my knee when I’m doing a certain posture?

And so I really take the time. To use it like a playground. It’s like a body playground. Cause my body is changing and it’s different each time I come to the yoga mat and I give myself love on the yoga mat. I’m like, Oh, the right side is feeling really tight today. It’s too painful to stay here that long, so maybe I don’t stay as long on the right side as I stay on the left.

And it’s about exploring and if you’re following along on a YouTube video, if you need to pause the video, it’s about like taking care of what you need to do because each body is unique. And to put on a practice and say, This is the practice, you must do it this way for everybody, is wildly inaccurate because the way that our joints even fit, you know, in the ball and socket, some of us have femurs and like arms that sit into our shoulder sockets and into our hips that are just different and they are not, they’re probably [00:36:00] never gonna open into external extension the way that we want them to.

And we can force, and we can force and we can do every yoga practice online and go to a class every single day. And we just have to give our body permission to be where it’s. And to be different and to be asym symmetrical. I rarely meet somebody that’s perfectly symmetrical. So to have these perfectly symmetrical practices is really unrealistic.

So I think letting your practice look a little messy, but being really unique to yourself and exploring, using props, using couch cushions, using encyclopedias like furniture, yoga. Like bring the props that, like get a chair, you know, if a forward fold laundry for you. Yeah. Or clean laundry . Yeah. If forward folds hard for you, get a, get a chair and like assist yourself.

We don’t need to make it look beautiful and perfect and each just feel good. That’s what it needs to be. It needs to feel good. Or at least not [00:37:00] excruciatingly painful like it can be.

Gissele: Yeah. And again, that’s really what I appreciated in your practices, the allowance, inviting, the curiosity.

The lack of the need for perfection. the, just the embracing and acceptance of my body where I’m at, you know, whether it be emotionally or physically. I think one of the things that I,know about your practices is that, you talk about desiring wholeness, not, you’re not aiming for happiness, you’re aiming for whole.

Can you talk a little bit about what you mean by that? What, what does wholeness really mean to you, for you?

Echo: Well, I feel like we live in a culture that I can say sometimes is really targeted towards like toxic happiness, toxic joy, where it’s like, be happy, be orgasmic, be pleasurable, be stretchy. Like all of these things.

And I, I see a lot of spiritual bypassing in the yoga world and the spiritual [00:38:00] world as well, of if you’re angry or if you’re inflexible, if you’ve got a lot of body pain, it must be your issue. It must be your mind. You must be suffering. You’re doing something to create this for yourself. And I feel that we all.

There’s purpose for the challenges that we go through. If you’ve got a tight, rigid body that has a lot of pain in it and it doesn’t want to feel super enjoyable and free and open, then allow it to be as it is softly. Just care for it. Nurture it each day until it’s ready. But if you’re going into shame around, Why am I not flexible?

I’ve been doing yoga for five years, why can’t I do this? Why can’t I do that? This is not a wholesome practice. So when I say to be wholesome, Instead of happy. It’s more about, I wanna feel what I feel, and if I feel sad, if I feel rigid, if I feel angsty, if I feel angry, I’m gonna bring that into my practice.

If I’m angry, I’m gonna hand scream into my hand. I’m gonna shake my body, [00:39:00] I’m gonna punch a pillow. I’m gonna do the breath of joy, whatever I need to do. If I’m sad, I’m gonna cry. I’m gonna sit in child’s pose, I’m gonna do my prasadas or my prayer to the ground. I’m gonna be grounding and do yin, even if I feel like I ate too much the night before and I wanna do a super fiery practice that I can get a workout in.

I don’t, because if I wanna be wholesome, that’s not what my body wants in that moment. It’s grieving, it’s mourning, it’s sad, and if I’m joy, And I’m happy that I celebrate that and I move through the fire of my practice and I challenge myself and I do handstands and arm balances and you know, side planks.

But my practice is not routine. These practices, these yoga practices that are very rigid, I’ve practiced them. They have their purpose. This isn’t me saying anything negative against any other practice. Cause I think whatever. Fuels you go for it. If it feeds you and it feels good in your body and it serves you, I congratulate [00:40:00] you.

But for me personally, there is no routine to my practice. Like I, the routine is that I practice, so I meditate, I’m mindful, I do my breath work, and I move my body each day. And it looks different because I am different. I am constantly changing, like the pulsation that is me, the fluctuation that is me. In order to be wholesome, I have to observe what I’m feeling at any time, and it’s rarely the same.

So my practice can’t be that routine. And when I. Put myself into a routine, which I have for years, where it’s like, wake up at 5:00 AM do an hour of yoga, then meditate. Then you have your practice, read your yoga philosophy. It’s beautiful for moments, you know? And sometimes weeks at a time or a few months at a time, but at any point it’s too rigid.

Something gets lost in translation. And it’s like, I said this in some of my videos as well, One of my teachers said like, Not too rigid, not too loose. You know, like it’s both like not too tight, not too [00:41:00] loose. So it’s like to be, And same in meditation seat, like you wanna sit up tall, but not to the point where it’s all your thinking about in your meditation.

Is my spine straight enough? It’s just like loosen up. Like don’t take yourself so seriously. A wholesome practice is like, Be a human being. You don’t need to be a robot. Like so many yogis I feel like turn themselves into these spiritual robots of like, I chant this mantra, I do this breathwork, I practice for exactly 90 minutes.

And wonderful. If that truly feels embodied for you, go for it. If there’s a part of you that’s now just turning it into every other thing that you’ve done in life as like a product or a workout or whatnot, then just be careful and really ask yourself, is this serving me or can there be more adaptability here?

Gissele: Yeah, and I think what you’re talking about is really showing up as our authentic selves, right? Whether it be like, you know, and, and it’s so interesting that you are mentioning that because I’ve been [00:42:00] trying to get, like I’ve been working, or not you the word trying, but I’ve been really working towards, Being more consistent in getting up in terms of like, you know, cuz I do, I love doing meditations before my day starts.

I love doing the yoga work, although some, I, I actually prefer to do it at night. It kind of closes my day, like midday to night. I’m exploring Chiang. and so, so, so thank you for saying that because I feel like it’s given me the space to, oh, I don’t have to be so rigid about these things. I can ask myself, Hey, what am I really like?

What, what does, what do I really feel like, What will bring me the, the joy or, you know, peace or what, whatever it is that I’m looking for in that, in this moment. So, so thank you for that. I really, really do appreciate that piece. I wanted to ask about the interplay between, cause you know, one of the things I had noticed from your website is, is how you introduce yourself in that beautiful poem.

Talking about how, on the one hand, where are [00:43:00] these. higher Self, Spiritual indestructible, powerful beings, right? That, that are connected spirit and source. And on the other hand we are these, it feels like we’re these physical limited temporal beings. How do you find that you integrate them so that you can live a life or, or how does yoga help you integrate them so that you can live a life where you are really appreciating the journey and not wanting to jump to an outcome, whether it be spiritual bypassing or or so on.

I dunno if that question was clear.

Echo: Yeah. I mean, I like it. I like it’s vagueness and it’s ability to be very expansive in nature. I think. Number one, like not taking myself too seriously is a big one. And seeing the humor of the human body. Like when I think about how frail and temporary this body is and how ancient the being is that’s inside.

You know, I [00:44:00] wake up in the mornings and a lot of times I like stretch my arms up and I’m just like, Okay, here we are again. We’re an echo. Like this is a beautiful costume. It’s a fun one. Oh, she’s got a few more wrinkles here and she’s. Her skin’s a little dry here and I kind of do an inspection and I just really appreciate how much the body is changing and the fact that it’s got skin that falls off and nails that fall off.

And I’m like, this is, so, it’s an organic plant. Like I live in a plant and this is the way I see it sometimes. Or I’m literally like, I am a plant. And it, it’s remarkable to me, and as I get older, especially as a woman, we have so much pressure. Don’t get old. You know, It’s not appealing to get old. Look as young as you can.

Mm-hmm. keep doing yoga. And so many people even remark about that, you know, as a yoga teacher, wow, you’re so fit for almost 40, you look like you’re 30, you look so good. And I’m just like this, This is damaging these [00:45:00] comments. We think that we’re complimenting people, but what’s wrong with looking 40?

What’s wrong with aging? What’s wrong with looking my age? Because even I find myself, if somebody now says that I look the age that I am, I feel offended in a way because there are all these like, I wanna be young, I wanna be youthful, I wanna stay fit. I want my body to be young. And so I’m really doing my best as I have lots of gray hairs coming in now.

Like I’ve got a really wild white street going through the top of my hair and it I look very witch. And I thought, I think, you know what? One day I’m gonna be the old crone with the wrinkly face, and I’m gonna look like the old witch with my long brown hair. And that’s gonna be majestic because that’s a whole different being that I get to meet.

And each phase of life, as the young girl transitions into the woman, as the woman transitions into the elder, I get to experience these echos of myself, these different [00:46:00] versions of myself that are miraculous. And if I’m holding on to only being the young, sexy, desirable, like thin, beautiful echo, or that version, How sad is that, that I’m only I, oh, I want that version to be the version that I am, and then I miss out on the opportunity to meet all these other versions.

And so I think that’s a big part of like not taking it too seriously and appreciating the organic nature of this costume that you’re wearing. And see the humor in that of like, Wow, okay, this is what a cool costume I get to be in. What can I learn about this? You know, this thing that I’m wearing, this body that I’m in and how it moves as it, as it ages, you know, it, it changes.

Sometimes we need more slowness or maybe we get more energy and it’s exciting. It’s really exciting to be on this journey with my body with curiosity and allowing it to change cuz we really don’t like. As a, as a [00:47:00] species, and I know for myself, we like things to stay the same. We like familiarity and life is short.

We are changing constantly, and it’s happening so rapidly as we get into our thirties and into our forties, where that benchmark of youth into adulthood is, it’s scary. And we find ourselves in this kind of purgatory of, I’m not a kid anymore and I’m not an adult. Maybe I never will be an adult. How do I accept this?

Mm-hmm. . And I just try to laugh at myself and, and talk to myself in the mirror. Each day I talk to myself of like how I’m feeling and reminding myself that’s just a story. You’re beautiful, you’re lovable. Like you’re abundant. Like all is well, you’re healthy, your body is healthy. You can run, you can walk, You can see.

How miraculous is that? Who cares if you’re sexy or you’re skinny, or your hair looks perfect, like. This is something that society is just plastering on us. And I just let that go more and more.[00:48:00]

Gissele: what helps you let go without the fear Cuz clearly in your journey, you have made a choice to look at it as a, as an exciting journey.

As a journey. You welcome and like you said, in this collective society we have co-created, we see change as bad. We see the unknown as bad. We see, oh, there’s this thing, What is this thing? And then we see it as a, as a potential negative. What helps you not feed into that story and really go to what an exciting journey this is and, and, and accept that temporality of, of this human body.

Echo: I guess a big part is trust. Like a big part is trust that my life has only. Served me and gotten better and more refined with age, like the people that come into my life, the explorations, the experiences. [00:49:00] Even as my body gets older and it will begin to, to deteriorate and look in a different way, I’ve actually, life has gotten better.

It’s more and more beautiful, and the love is more and more pure and more and more unconditional. So I trust that I will always be loved. I will always be accepted no matter what happens, or how wildly gray and frantic my hair becomes, or how wrinkly I become that love is, is going to shift in the way that I see it physically is going to shift.

And just trusting. Trusting each day that I’m still gonna be cared for. And reminding myself like that I am conditioned by a society that is very sick, that is very sick, and I don’t want to be an example of that. And so when I give myself those harsh criticisms, I go Ah sweetie. Yeah, you’re still in that story that what you’ve been told is true and that’s not true.

All that’s so cute that you still feel that. But no . So I just like, I give like love to her and I’m like, Oh, that’s so cute. You still have that? That’s still in there. [00:50:00] Mm-hmm. . Okay. Well, okay, let’s, let’s just be with that for a moment. All right, let’s move on. Let’s go eat something. Let’s go play guitar.

Let’s go for a run. Do things that feel good in your body. Go take your body for a walk. Yeah.

Gissele: Yeah. So good. and this might be a challenging question. I noticed we’re almost coming up to the end. can you share or like maybe one or two, like mystical experiences? I know sometimes it’s hard to describe in words. I know having had my own, sometimes it’s really hard to put it into words, but I also help cuz I think one of the reasons why people get really stuck in the story is because they think that this is all there is.

So this is their only shot. This is their only chance. And, and so is there anything that you can share from that perspective that help people maybe open up to the potential to their own spiritual experiences? Hmm. Mysticism.

Echo: Oh, there’s so much mysticism. Trying to find a [00:51:00] story that doesn’t take a lifetime to explain

You know, I think, just to simplify, there’s been so many mystical markers since the beginning of my journey. Even how I found yoga, you know, it’s like it came into my life, unexpectedly. I wasn’t desiring it. And, and really, yeah, it’s revealed to me and showed me something that I am, that I wasn’t even sure that I could be.

And I think. What I feel and what is my belief is that this is not the first life that I’ve lived. I’ve been here many times. I’ve been many different versions of, I’ve been male, I’ve been female, mother, father, I’ve been sister, brother, I’ve been an elder, I’ve been all of the things. I am a witch. All of these things in one, and this is one lifetime.

And so for me, what helps me is that I’m like, I get to be echo for just the small fragment of time and the grand spectrum [00:52:00] of life. When I really let that go, and I enjoy being an echo. The mystical experiences like the numerology, the synchronicities, the dreams that come in, because it’s almost as if life is rewarding me for trusting it.

And I just say like, I accept this. This is the body that I’ve been given. This is a gift. Like this Vessel is such a gift. No matter what body you’re in, what limitations you have, you are a flavor of life that does not exist in any other capacity. Like you’ve come into life with this specific spice to experience life in a certain way that no one else will ever experience it.

And the poetry that comes through you, the songs, the movements that come through you are uniquely yours to give to the world. And so I wanna show up. As like the flavor that is echo in like the biggest and smallest and grandest and most humbles way that I can, so that I can get [00:53:00] everything that I can from this costume that I’m wearing.

Because this is the one time in life, this is the one time in space that Echo will exist because at some point echo will be something different. And so the mysticism is, it’s happened throughout my life where I have, I, I have ended up in places like I remember one mystic. There’s so many experiences, but one particularly, I was living in Japan and I was living in a small mountain town and I went on a walk in the evening after having dinner.

Cause I always go my walks. I take my body on a nice little walk and I had had. A very challenging time with a boss. a week prior where I had to leave quite quickly with my partner and we had to move to another village about three hours away from the village that we were living in. And we didn’t know anyone.

We didn’t know if we were gonna have work. We didn’t have any money. We were quite stressed at that time. I was teaching yoga, but I couldn’t find any work because I didn’t speak enough Japanese. And as I’m [00:54:00] walking through the snow and like listening to music, I come across this village and I like look up and there’s these signs and the snow is falling, and the signs literally say Echo Land.

And I was like, You’ve gotta be kidding me. Oh. And so I take a right and I walk down the street and literally ev, it’s Echo Land. The, the place is called Echo Land and there’s Echo Hotel, there’s Echo Cafe, all these places that end up being my home for about seven years. For seven winters. Wow. And where I end up teaching yoga and living and it, and it became like a second home to me.

And it actually. A gift that I lost that job that I lost a week prior and found myself here at a yoga studio called Como Rebi, which in Japanese como re stands for the light that shines between the trees and the forest. That really mystical light that that comes between the trees. And I ended up teaching there and I ended up living in Japan.

And it became a home to me for seven years. [00:55:00] And just this mystical experience of finding myself on this back road, walking into echo land and it changing my life and bringing me closer and closer to my path. And so that those kind of experiences ha, have happened over and over and over again to the point where I know that I’ve been here many, many times and that I will be back.

And so I’m just gonna enjoy this ride because it’s not gonna be very long. And I take it with the pain, the physical pain, the physical pleasure, the mental pain, the mental pleasure. And I just learn each day to be an observer of, of.

Gissele: Oh my gosh. Your response like brought tears to my eye. . So I was like, Oh my gosh.

I’m cognizant of the time and I was just wanting to, for you to share where can people find you? What’s your website? What’s your YouTube? We’re also gonna link it to the transcript of the video, so just share whatever you wanna share. Do you have something coming up in the new year or later on, or Thank

Echo: you.

Yeah, so, [00:56:00] you can find me@echoflowyoga.com, which is just echoflowyoga.com and Echo Flow Yoga on YouTube, on Instagram, on insight timer for free. Meditations everywhere. Echo Flow yoga and I do have programs running consistently, so I do have a 200 and 300 hour teacher training program that is trauma informed.

So if you’re looking to deepen your path, and you don’t necessarily need to be a teacher or have a desire to be a teacher, but just wanna go deeper, I have an online five month program for 200 hour and 300 hours to really just dive deep into the physical, the philosophy, the conceptual, the, the philosophy, all that stuff.

And I have a month long program. Called Detangling, human heartbreak. That’s all around the suffering that is to be a human and the angst and the pain and how to deal with that suffering and to become shadow dancers of our experience. And yeah, and I also have a SoundCloud [00:57:00] called the Shadow Dancer with Echo on it.

And I do lots of live sets of aesthetic dance, specifically to move the body through grief and anger and pain and pleasure and all of the things. So lots of offerings. Find me.

Gissele: Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, yes, thank you so, so much for this beautiful interview. I’m so, so grateful. and yeah, hope you can come back again.

Echo: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

View Details

[00:00:00]

Gissele: Hello and welcome to The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele.

We believe love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. On today’s podcast, we’ll be talking about the power of love in helping us heal our bodies. Today I’m speaking with the filmmaker as well as the producer of the incredible film.

Love Heals, an award-winning documentary following the journey of Dana, a chronic pain sufferer in Search of healing. Today I’m here with Krisanna Sexton, who is the filmmaker who has been passionately producing content since she was 16 years old. As an independent filmmaker, she’s able to craft stories in a way that reflect her heart of love and compassion for the person on the other side of the lens.

And I’m also here with Dana Crosier, who is not only the producer of Love Heals that is featured as a main character in the film. Dana’s journey is an inspirational one full of obstacles, [00:01:00] including two unsuccessful spine surgeries in 2020 while still experiencing some pain. Dana has been able to harness the power of her mind to accomplish things she once thought impossible by practicing the ancient mind body techniques featured in the film.

She now greets every day with a smile as she works hard to spread the message of Love heals. Welcome to the podcast Krisanna and Dana.

Krisanna: Hello. Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Gissele: Oh, no, I’m so excited that you’re here. I was so, so moved by your film, and hopefully I will not get teary eyed. During our conversation, I actually saw, a preview of it in, Anita Moorjani’s, Instagram, and I was instantly drawn and I saw a little clip of it and I’m like, okay, I gotta watch this film, and I’m so glad that I did.

before I start with my questions, I just wanna tell you that I was so moved, there was moments that I, it just touched my heart so much, and I, I just wanna share one in particular. the scream therapy that you did, Dana. [00:02:00] If you remember that I was screaming with you and I was crying my eyes out and I, I never thought that I actually would’ve been that moved, but I, I don’t know, it was like something shifted or something happened for me.

And so I immediately thought, okay, I wanna talk to these ladies. I think this will is phenomenal. And so I just wanted to say thank you, thank you, thank you for, helping me find water up, fire down, and also for sharing your story.

Krisanna: Yeah. Means a lot.

Dana: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Thank you so much. I haven’t heard anybody say that yet.

Like they actually did it with me and I, I just find that, oh,

Gissele: I just, it was very unexpected cuz when you started to actually do it, I’m like, okay, what’s happening here? And then I don’t know what happened, but I kind of got sucked into the, into the event and I remember kind of screaming with you and I was, I was really, I was crying and then I was like, okay, what’s happening here?

Then I thought, oh, I should do this scream therapy, . for those of my, uh, listeners who haven’t seen the [00:03:00] film, I was wondering if you could start sharing a little bit, Dana, about your story and a little bit about your experiences with chronic pain that actually led to the development of this film.

Dana: Yes, thank you for asking. it was back in 2017 when I first started experiencing pain. I was just exercising. I was running on a treadmill and I pulled a muscle in my calf and it was like, you know, oh great. I pulled a muscle. I can rest and figure this out. It’s no big deal. And after a period of time, my other calf and legs started to hurt and it.

It just wasn’t getting any better. It’s like this injury opened up a can of worms in my body. ultimately I started seeing, you know, practitioners I went to physical therapy. ultimately they thought, well, maybe the pain is coming from your back. So I started to do some chiropractic care and all of that was leading me nowhere fast.

My pain wasn’t getting any better. It was just kind of spreading [00:04:00] in the lower extremities of my body and my, my lower back sciatica. And, you know, I felt really lost because I had spent an enormous amount of money and time trying to figure out how to heal from this pain and what was actually causing it.

So eventually, one of the, the practitioners said, well, you need to go get an MRI on your back because there are a lot of nerves that run through the legs that come from the lower back. So I did mm-hmm. and they said, oh my gosh, you have. a herniated disc and there’s nerve compression and spinal stenosis and you know, all of these terms that are very scary.

Mm-hmm. when you get them back on an mri. And I thought, oh my gosh. Okay, well there’s the answer, you know, at least I understand what’s happening. And, you know, the very last thing I wanted to do was surgery. So they sent me for an injection saying that, you know, this should really help you. Mm-hmm. . And I thought, okay.

And it actually made things much, much worse. I think, they hit a nerve. I [00:05:00] actually had worse pain after the injection and my, oh no, ankles and feet. I mean, it was getting really, really bad. So one thing led to another and during Covid it was March of 2020 when, you know, all of this was coming to a head and they said, we need to get you in surgery before your body starts to like shift.

And my foot was acting weird and, and they just made it sound very urgent. . And I thought, okay, so meanwhile, Krisanna is, and I won’t steal her thunder, but she started getting interested in my journey in a way of like, maybe I should start filming this and I’ll let her speak more to it. But there was something in her that just thought she should start documenting my journey because it was so crazy.

I mean, it went on for years and, you know, I won’t ruin the punchline of the film, but I did go through those surgeries, obviously, and, and they made me worse, than, than before. So and so began the journey.

Gissele: Yeah. Thank you for [00:06:00] sharing that. That must have been a terrifying time. You know, and so it’s so interesting.

So thank you formentioning, Krisanna’s documentation because I remember in the film, one of the things that really struck me was that Krisanna had sent that she. Ready to witness a miracle. And I was gonna ask her what made you think there would be one? Because the circumstances weren’t that, you know, like things were not great, things were scary.

And so I was just wondering, Krisanna if you could share what made you think, oh, I should document this cuz something good’s gonna happen?

Krisanna: Hmm. That is a great question. First, I think I just started filming because I felt compelled. It’s like my intuition. Said, I said I had to, or something like I just mm-hmm.

and it wasn’t like I was filming all the time. I mean, there’s plenty of really, really hard, painful moments that I would’ve never picked up a camera. But, I think because even as we got into some of the recovery journey, Dana was like a full-time [00:07:00] student of her healing and trying to recover. And we actually started to hear stories of people who miraculously were out of pain or, you know, achieved some, some sort of like, incredible healing after trying different modalities and alternative modalities.

So then I thought, well, she’s doing a lot of different things, so wouldn’t it be really cool if we find the one thing? And I know for a long time we were on this journey of finding. , the silver bullet or the, the one thing that was gonna help her, achieve a pain-free life. Because in our mind, at the time that was healing.

Healing was not, not having any pain. So of course, as we embarked on that journey and what you see documented in the film is we started to realize it’s changing our relationship to what is healing, changing our relationship to what is pain, or maybe I should say, redefining what is healing, changing our relationship to pain.

that’s actually the most important piece. There is no such [00:08:00] thing as now plenty of people do have, like, in one moment they go pain free, but throughout their life they’re gonna have other issues. Like that’s the human experience. So, yeah, I think that’s my long answer to, to why I, I don’t know that it was like a specific moment or anything.

It’s just I felt compelled and then I started to think at the end of the day I thought this footage considered my hard drive and just be like a marker maybe in a year or two years. , we’ll look back at on it and I’ll, we’ll actually see progress, because it felt like nothing was changing. So I held onto this hope that things are changing.

Maybe it’s just so slow that if I have these little markers in time, we can look back and say, oh my God. Like, there was a point where Dana couldn’t even sit for more than 15 minutes. She like, she couldn’t sit and I thought, oh, she’ll never be able to really work again. And I can now we can look back and say, oh my God, she’s doesn’t have that sciatica pain.

She doesn’t have that. So even though there’s still lingering stuff, it’s always changing. It’s always evolving. And anyway, so [00:09:00] yeah, it’s, it is been a really amazing journey and opportunity. Mm-hmm. ,

Gissele: well, you said was so powerful. There were so many layers. the first one that I wanted to talk about was really the, the concept of you saying, you know, people think that the goal was really to be live pain free.

And so we are so sometimes body focused that unless everything is perfect, it just kind of. Makes up upset, right? Like, because oh, everything should be perfect. But really your journey was way deeper than that. there’s so many aspects to it. I wanna talk about the power of belief because you had to believe despite what was being shown out there, what the reality was telling you about what was happening for Dana and what you were witnessing.

You had to believe that it could get better. And so, and the power of belief is so strong. What, what role has the power of belief for having that kind of inner guidance, played in your lives?

Krisanna: Hmm. I’ll answer first and then I’ll let Dana, because of course she was the one [00:10:00] experiencing it. But, there was some seed that was planted in my mind at some point.

I can’t pinpoint it. I just think it was divine where someone said to me, and, and then I, I’ve heard it since. Change is the only constant we have. Mm. So when Dana was laying like, could barely move, yeah, walking a little bit, trying to recover. It felt so long. And I literally would say it was like my mantra and I would say to Dana, like, change is the only constant we have.

And even if it feels like it’s changing for the worst, that’s still change. It’s still something is shifting. There’s no such thing as being stuck. It’s just not even So our brain tells us this is forever. But I just held on to that hope of like, if it can change for the worst, whatever that even means, then it can change for the better.

And what if I just redefine what good and bad looks like? Like maybe at some point we’re actually look, gonna look on this with gratitude. And I would journal about that. Like something about this, I can’t see it now and I’m angry and I basically hate everything but , at some [00:11:00] point I’m gonna have so much gratitude because on the other side, It will make sense why we had to experience this dark season where we, I mean, really a lot of our friends or just people in our life couldn’t even hang with us.

It was too heavy. It was too much. You know, like they were, they were going through Covid stuff, but they were like going on road trips and doing all these things. Meanwhile we’re hole up in our house trying to help Dana recover from surgery. So yeah, we felt like victims and there was a lot of steps in working that out, but I think that I had to hold onto something.

and I like re even developed a new form of faith. I had walked away from my spirituality that I was raised with. Mm-hmm. of like the, the Christian faith. And I just, I was rejected in that faith, but I found a new faith that was similar but my own. And that was also an anchor. Like, okay, there’s something greater outside of me that’s guiding us and leading us.

And this is not the end, maybe it’s just the beginning. So if I write, if I frame it that way in my [00:12:00] brain, what would that mean? If it was just the beginning, what kind of story would I write with this chapter? And I wanted to write the chapter of being a really amazing partner and being someone who showed up with love and care and, you know, didn’t judge Dana regardless of where she was at in her healing process.

And that, you know, that was just an intention that I said, so. Okay. I feel like I rambled a little bit there, but No, no. I’ll let Dana share too. ,

Dana: that was great. Wow. you were the best partner. , I actually can’t believe that I got so fortunate to be cared for by such an incredibly kind, loving human like Krisanna.

To be honest with you, I don’t know how I would’ve navigated that season without her. so you didn’t set the intention, you did it . You gave me the love and support that I needed to get through the most difficult time in my life. So, but the question was about belief. And I will tell you that I really had to dig [00:13:00] deep on this one because the truth of the matter is when I went into surgery, I had a deep belief that that was going to help me heal.

That actually it was gonna take care of all the pain that I was experiencing. So I thought if that was my belief, and I believed it with my whole heart, and it went the complete opposite direction. You know, I went through the first surgery and something felt wrong. I wasn’t healing. I was still in, I mean, way worse pain than before the surgery.

Not just because of the surgical site. It was something more, and I didn’t know that they, you know, nicked my spinal column and I had a spinal fluid leak for six weeks until they put me back into emergency surgery to repair it. And then the repair didn’t go the way they, they had planned. And I was laying in I C U at some point going, how did I end up here?

Yeah. How, how did this happen? Because my belief that I was going to heal through all of that was so strong. And here I am not knowing if I’m going to leave the hospital [00:14:00] because I could not, I couldn’t get the pain under control, the leak, you know, it was just, it was a bad situation and I thought, I may never walk again.

I may not live. So after a period of time, I was, I was a victim, right? So I felt very victimized. I couldn’t believe, I felt like my life was over. I made the biggest mistake of my life by going through this surgery. And then I started to find out how many surgeries, especially spine surgeries, are actually unsuccessful and make people worse.

And I thought, what in the world is happening? But what happened during that time was that I got connected to a community. So I was doing research and I found an app actually called Curable, which is for people with chronic pain. And it just came to me as an ad. And I started to listen to some of the content on there.

And there was a spine surgeon who does appear in our film. And this man was talking about the damage that is being caused by people with these procedures. And I was like, oh my gosh. This is [00:15:00] real. I’m not, and, and I’m not alone. And it just so happened at the time, he had a community, like he did live q and a sessions over Zoom twice a week for people like me.

And I got plugged into a community. And why that is related to belief is because then I started to hear stories of people who, who came back from these situations mm-hmm. and started to find ways that they, whatever it was, like Krisanna said, there’s no silver bullet, but he taught a lot about calming the nervous system.

Mm-hmm. , you know, doing expressive writing to release suppressed anger or other emotions that we have, have not expressed in our lives. And I thought, oh my gosh, what is all of this? I’ve had so much trauma in my life. What am I, what am I hanging onto? Mm-hmm. . So, I started to believe that it was possible for me to overcome all of this when I would hear stories of hope of other people that have experienced severe chronic pain, thought their life was over and through these practices, we’re able to turn it around through their [00:16:00] belief system and, and knowing that they can heal in this way, knowing that they can start to get their life back in ways that they thought they never could again.

So I think the community aspect of it was really huge for me to start hearing other people’s stories, which I felt very isolated and alone. Krisanna and I both really did for a long time. So getting plugged into that was huge for me. And then in the film you’ll see that we met with, Dr. Bruce Lipton. Mm-hmm.

who actually wrote the book Biology of Belief. And then we started to really understand how our thoughts literally become things and how we can craft our future and start to. Believe in ways that these things actually can come to fruition. And you know, obviously that’s probably a whole different podcast.

But , no. I will say that just visualizing the future that I wanted and believing that I could get back on a mountain to hike or on a bicycle [00:17:00] to ride, or taking a walk with my beloved Krisanna around the park. Again, all of those things as I believed it and would take small steps towards getting the life back that I wanted, it started to unfold that way.

So belief is so powerful.

Gissele: Yeah. Absolutely. And as you said, it takes an enormous amount of courage when you don’t see it, right? And it is about taking those baby steps to go forward. And so I think this is why the story is so powerful, because, you know, we’re always wanting to get to the end. Well, why don’t I see it?

Why isn’t it here? Why isn’t it, you know, why isn’t it manifested why I have a line to it? And that just only reinforces that it’s not there. But taking baby steps in order for us and having the courage to take those baby steps are so, is so, so profound and powerful. you guys mentioned, the connection between our emotions in our body, and I’m a big believer that, you know, illness and disease is just, kind of that stuck energy that hasn’t had anywhere to go.

can you tell me a little bit about how [00:18:00] this experience helped you understand the connection between emotions and the physical body?

Dana: Wow. Yeah. I, I mean, I realized through this experience that there is a direct correlation and. . I think the first eye-opening experience that I had with that is, it was actually Krisanna’s mom sent me a book, I don’t know, it was maybe a couple days out of surgery.

And the book was called The Body Keeps the Score. And I was like, what is this ? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And I started reading it and I’m like, oh my gosh, this is me. This is me. And then, kind of around the same time as I started seeking information about chronic pain and, and chronic illness and what is causing it, why do we get stuck in this loop?

Why didn’t I just heal after I had that first injury instead of it progressing into what it is? And then I started to realize that there are tools out there, there are books out there, you know, the [00:19:00] Mind Body Prescription by Dr. John Sarno. The John Sarno is one of the, the physicians that actually.

understood this connection to be true. And then, you know, his colleagues are like, you know, you’re crazy. What do you mean? But that work ended up becoming really important in my life. And I got connected with, there’s a woman that had a chronic pain. She didn’t go through surgery, but she healed herself and she launched a platform called the, you know, my t m s journey.

And t m s stands for something that basically explains that the emotions and all of the suppressed anger and different things that we don’t release throughout our life start to cause a physiological response in our bodies. It gets trapped. And I, and so I just was eating that information up. I was like, I, I had not heard of it that way before.

And so it made so much sense to me. And then I, I thought, okay, if that’s the case, then I am willing to take the journey within. to figure out how to release [00:20:00] these emotions and things that I have just piled up throughout my life with trauma. And, and that’s what brought up, you know, the, the first thing you talked about, right?

I went to this incredible, wise practitioner who was going through like the chakra system. I didn’t even know what that was back then. , what do you mean? We have all these energy centers? Well, we’re made up of almost all energy as humans. And so we, I began to peel back the layers and, you know, my throat was something, you know, us holding back and not speaking our truth or not living authentically.

it, it all makes a difference as we go through life. And, you know, Krisanna briefly mentioned it. , our sexuality was something we both had to suppress because of our upbringing for many, many, many years. Right. So that played a role. So when you have an experienced practitioner that can take you through something like releasing, I’d never screamed like that in my entire life.

And it broke [00:21:00] wide open something in me. Mm-hmm. that I had been suppressing. It was like the scream of a little girl who was raped. It was the scream of the person, the little girl inside of me who was just for help to be seen, to be myself, to not be harmed or abused in whatever way. It was like all of that just built up over time.

emotions being stuck in the body was something I, it was kind of a new concept to me, but it made so much sense. And nowadays you can just, , I mean, find so much information on this out there. I just wish people understood how important it is to take that journey, to start to process their traumas, because they can live such a different, more whole, beautiful life, you know, when they’re willing to, to do that work.

Gissele: Yeah. Thank you Krisanna ,

Krisanna: oh, I feel like Dana shared so powerfully. I will say that it, this, the, the darkness of this [00:22:00] journey was kind of like the initiation into. Looking at everything. And so it, even though Dana was the one experiencing so much pain, like feeling so helpless in that season, brought up a lot of stuff for me.

And so we both on our own, just were like, okay. I called it the drudging. All right, let’s look at everything. And we were in therapy and we were singing intuitive and just like, let’s do all the work. We can do all the journaling, all the, and it was like our own separate journeys, but parallel, because I thought we’re being given space and time and an opportunity and let’s, let’s just do this inner, inner dark work that we’re finally, we finally have that this space for.

So yeah, it was really, really painful. and I felt like a lot of times it got worse before it got better. Like I, I couldn’t meditate for more than 10 minutes without hearing a screaming girl inside my head like screaming. So we were doing Joe Dispenza’s training at the time, like virtually, and we’re actually going to his in-person in March.

In Australia. Yeah. So we’re [00:23:00] doing seven days intensive, so excited for that. But this was all virtual and at the time I could barely get through it or I would get through it barely. And then I would scream like into a pillow, literally because I had this little girl that was starting to surface. So I had to actually do that work in order just to calm my mind enough to be able to meditate.

And that felt like baseline , you know, people would sit for 20 minutes and I couldn’t do it because I had so much unrest. So yeah, I think the emotion piece is really powerful. I think it’s something. We’re ever learning and trying to better understand. I will say something I observed that I just like to provide as maybe andisclaimer is I saw that Dana also put a lot of pressure on herself to like, fix it like something’s broken because I have all, all this pain, so there must be something emotionally broken in me, so I need to go and fix.

And it was like a job almost. And, we’ve been doing some work with Anita Marjani and she talked about this thing of like, even in her journey. Well, and that’s how you know, you know, Anita [00:24:00] obviously, even in her journey, she said she does believe that there are these components that lead to illness and disease, but she had to, she was basically saying it’s unc.

yes, it was my fault, but it was unconscious. So I just feel like I need to say that because I think we can just almost like be frustrated with ourselves. How dare we hold onto this? Well, it’s safety. It’s like all we know to do when our parents are, you know, it’s toxic at home. And then we shove things down so that we don’t express to keep ourselves safe.

What a gift that we have that part of us. And then as adults, we can start to release it. And I think it’s just like having grace and love and compassion through every step of that journey. That there’s nothing broken with us, there’s nothing wrong. We were always doing the best we could. And now that we, now that we are conscious and we can say, oh, this is a, this is a piece I can work on.

Beautiful. What a gift. But yeah. Thanks for letting me share. You share?

Gissele: So I wanted to, ask a question a, around what you just said, because I think what you said is so pivotal, and I’ve observed this too in my own [00:25:00] life and in the people that I’ve, been with, which is, you know, we, we have this understanding that we create our own reality.

We have this, or at least some of us have this understanding that our thoughts are create and then we get really mad at ourselves because most of the time we’re created subconsciously. So we wouldn’t want to hurt ourselves on purpose. We would never do that. but we do it because of all of these beliefs and thoughts and, and, and, and just kind of emotions that we have pent up.

And so this is why I think love and compassion are so important, having love and compassion for ourselves throughout. Aspect of the journey as we get to kind of unpack, as we get to kind of have the courage to face that fear, what role did self-love and self-compassion have in your journey, towards healing?

Dana: Literally everything. , it was everything. Good answer. . I mean, but to really, it, it’s true. And I will get a little bit more succinct in this because [00:26:00] at, at the very beginning of this journey, when I would start to hear how much love and compassion for yourself was the key component to, I, I don’t wanna even say healing, but the acceptance of where I was at, I just, I couldn’t even fathom in that moment.

But as I started to do the work, I would do things like write a letter to my body or write, I was like learning these skill sets of things I’d never done before in, in expressive writing. And then what started to happen was, , I would read it back because I would have, I would write it in third person and I would go, that poor human, oh my gosh, what?

They have been through so much and thinking of it as I would a, a friend or a loved one or family member, and I was like, wait a minute. So if I can feel that way when reading back something that’s not, you know about me, but it is, why is it that I’m not able [00:27:00] to find that compassion? Love for myself. I’m treating myself like a machine.

Okay, I’ve checked all the boxes today. Why don’t I feel any better? Or, you know, I’ve done all this work, I’ve done, you know, my meditation and this and that and the other, and, and nothing was changing. But I realized very quickly that the more that I was not loving and accepting and compassionate to myself for where I was in that moment, all that does, when you hope and wish to be somewhere other than you are is it just ramps up your nervous system and teaches your body and mind that you’re not okay.

And it just has this perpetual cycle of pain, emotional pain too, especially because you get so defeated. So something at some point clicked in me going, wait a minute. My body deserves to be loved and accepted for where it is right now. Everything that I’ve been through, who I am today is a result of what I’ve gone through.

And so I, it took me on a, I will [00:28:00] say a forgiveness journey as well. Not just of everybody who hurt me, but of myself. I put a lot of pressure on myself to be perfect. And what I found through this journey as well is that a lot of perfectionists struggle with chronic pain and chronic illness. Mm-hmm. , it’s like one of the types, the, the human types that tend to get into these cycles because we’re just so darn hard on ourselves.

So the role that self-compassion and self-love played was. , absolutely instrumental. It was pivotal. It was the, it was the paradigm shift that I needed in my journey to start to change my mindset about who I am, about why I deserve love, and about what was possible for my future with that. And then people will see if they watch the film we visited again when we were with Bruce Lipton, he was doing what’s called muscle testing on me.

And I’m like, what is, what is this? Yeah. about, you know, do I, [00:29:00] do I really love myself and how can we start to, cultivate more love for ourselves? Because I think it’s one thing to say it. Oh, sure, I love myself. Of course I do. But do we like really at our core, do we, so I think I needed that awareness.

The fact of the matter is, a lot of this was just my lack of awareness. So if there’s anything that my journey can do for people or our film is create a level of awareness and self-reflection that people may not have had before, that can start to put them one step closer in that direction of more love for themselves, more recognition that they can take an active role in their healing journey and more hope that that a shift in a change is possible for their lives.

Mm-hmm. ?

Gissele: Krisanna, did you wanna

Krisanna: say something? Hmm. I mean, I just love everything Dana’s sharing, but I find the word love very interesting and I thought a lot about. , even as I [00:30:00] created the film, I would ha I had like post-it notes all on my wall and like all the different, and I thought about even trying to dig into like, what is our definition of love, but it’s so big , it’s like too much to try to embark on and, you know, 80 minute film.

but that being said, I really love, we were just at this event with Anita and she talked about, she doesn’t even like using the term unconditional love because if it’s not unconditional, what is it? It’s not love. And I think that we think we love ourselves. I thought I loved myself, but it had a lot of conditions.

Only if I perform this way, only if I act this way, then you’re good. It’s like, you know, I was a, a mean abusive parent to myself, almost . And it was only in the film really that I started to unpack what does it mean to truly love yourself? It’s like, as I was editing, I realized, oh, I actually don’t even know that I have this for myself.

and that I think is a, as a journey, but. . I don’t know that we can even experience it from others, because I think we [00:31:00] have moments of unconditional love for each other. But I, I found even for myself and just kind of being in this world for a while, I’m theorizing this maybe, but I feel like the truest, most pure, unconditional love is in our, in our inner self, in our inner world and our true self.

And meditation is such a pathway towards that. Like, once I could finally meditate, then I could experience this state. They, they actually call in Korea. It’s called Mu, and it’s where it’s nothingness. It’s where the, and they say that’s the state where you can experience unconditional love. And so I think everyone has like different terms for that.

But when I got there, I was like, oh, this is so peaceful. There’s no judgment. There’s no shame. There’s no fear. It’s just pure, it’s like pure essence, like where we came from. So I think my journey now is like, how do I regularly reconnect to that? . And then as I give that to myself, it’s only then that I give to others cuz I thought I would, was unconditionally loving, even towards Dana.

I was like, oh yeah, I think, but then in the back of my mind, there would be these other like, [00:32:00] you know, strings attached or, this person didn’t do enough for me, or I give so much and then well then it’s not love, it’s not pure. So I’m still unpacking that and that’s still a work in progress, but I think I’m just recognizing, it just starts within.

I can’t give to anyone else what I’m not giving to myself. And that is the most healing form of love. And then of course, what it does to our nervous system is creates the perfect conditions for healing. We can do all these other things, but in that state of pure love and pure essence, healing just happens.

It’s just, and I think it’s not just physical, right? It’s like mm-hmm. layers of trauma and emotional stuff heal too. So, yeah. I love, love .

Gissele: I, I completely agree with what you both had said. . You can’t really love someone until you fully love yourself, because then you don’t need them to be different. You don’t need to them to give you anything.

It, it really comes from within. And I know in my own journey it’s been, it’s, it’s been challenging, right? I remember that I had a hard time even doing, I don’t know if you guys, I’m sure you guys have [00:33:00] heard of Louise Hay. She used to have this mirror exercise where you tell yourself how much you love yourself.

And it was so hard to get through and I didn’t realize how hard it was to get through. but you know, like when you commit and over time, the more that you show up for yourself and the more you face those challenging emotions, the easy it does get easier. Sometimes it does. Like I find Chris Anna, it is the same thing, or sometimes it gets a little bit worse and you’re like, oh man, , is it time to eject?

And you’re like, okay, no, I’m just gonna, even if I just show up for myself for five minutes. And over time it does get easier and easier in, in being able to tap into that. that well of love that we naturally have and I feel we’re born with. but then we’ve learned all of these things that kind of get us away from ourselves.

And so for me, the path of going back to myself is also about unlearning, unlearning, all of that stuff, that we’ve learned. I I wanted to, go back to the, the process that you guys share in the, in the film. I think it’s a water up, fire [00:34:00] down. and, I gotta say, like when I heard about it, I thought it was so, so interesting

I’ve only started doing it a couple weeks ago, I think, and then I found that my breathing is like, from my belly, which I was always a shallow breather.

I was always like, right. And I’m like, and, and I would try different exercises to try to get the, the, to move down and it just didn’t. And so naturally, and then I also sit straighter now, so. That’s good. I was wondering how you found, water fire down in sort of what, and how it helped you kind of, in your journey.

Krisanna: Do you want me to go first?

Dana: Yeah. Cause this is, this is a bigger, answer. I think both of our perspectives are very different, in how we found all this and how it helped us. So, go ahead Krisanna.

Krisanna: Yeah, I was just gonna say, you know, water at fire down is, is kind of the terminology that Ichi Lee put around this energy balance, which is based in, in ancient Korea, Korean.

[00:35:00] Practices. But of course you see very similar practices throughout the world. Interestingly, something I wasn’t able to fit into the film, but one of the women who was in our retreat that we filmed was taught the same principle in Hopi tradition. Oh wow. But it was not called water up fire down, but it was all about babies need to have their bellies warm and their heads cool and the, and they taught like this is the way of natural balance.

Your belly needs to be warm and your head is cool. And so she’s like, I never un really understood it until I came to, so I say all that because, you know, this is terminology that’s around something that’s so much bigger than, you know, energy balance. It is talked about in many different traditions and many different practices.

That’s the term that Ichi Lee used. And so he was the one who really wanted to create a film in light of Covid and what everyone was going through with the pandemic. He wanted people to understand that you have the power to heal yourself and that self-love is the way that you know that there’s a power and self-love.

And so that’s really what we were presented [00:36:00] at the beginning was he was sharing about this idea for a film and wanted us to work on it. And I was like, well, any, yeah, something that doesn’t put the onus on an individual but puts it on yourself like, you know, it doesn’t give your power away to a guru, but it says you have the power inside of you.

I was very interested in that. And then even as we did the filming initially at the very beginning, it wasn’t even supposed to be about Dana or our journey at all. We were just gonna tell this people’s stories and really try to unpack like what that looks like. And then it turned into Dana’s journey and it was like a, had this download in meditation and then Ichi Lee had that the same day.

and we, we agreed, oh my God, we’re supposed to be following Dana’s journey and see, and just see how it helps her. So, we had been exposed to some of these things before, but we hadn’t like really dug into it. We had gone to the retreat center in Sedona, but this was our, our time to say, what does it look like when you really dig in and like do this daily?

And then what does it look like for [00:37:00] people trying it for the first time? How quickly can they, heal or transform or whatever? So yeah, I mean it is, it’s a really powerful concept, but I wanted to share the Hopi bit because that was something that was really enlightening to know it’s not just, it’s amazing one person’s deal.

but yeah. I’m curious Dana’s perspective too. .

Dana: Well, I think for me, I lived my entire life with a hot head. Like I literally was feverish throughout my entire life and I never understood why. and my energy balance was so far upside down. Yeah. Because it was just so imbalanced. Yeah. So for me to start to learn these concepts, when we started the film, I was like, oh, I’ve done yoga before. I’ve tried meditation, all these things, but I did not know the power of bringing that energy and that fire down into your core. I actually, it, that concept really never occurred to me until [00:38:00] we started doing the film and learning the concept of water up, fire down, and then it all made sense.

So all of the practices that we were taught, you know, we’d gone to retreat, but when we filmed for the documentary, it was ver, it was so helpful to learn like in my brain and in my body simultaneously, what this means and how it shows up in our lives in everyday life and what we can do to get that balance back.

So it was pivotal for me to understand that that is a, is a environment. It’s an environment that your body can be in harmony and can create that healing effect in our bodies. Because the mind is, I mean it’s, it’s amazing to learn when you learn about the mind body connection and how it’s just truly one entity and how we, the pathway to all of this was through the body.

I was like, okay, this is, this is a big concept for me. So what I found was that there were certain modalities that resonated with me more [00:39:00] than others. So when I would. , like, tap on my, not just the e f t tapping that you hear, that you see, that is also very, very helpful. But I needed to get out of my brain and into my body.

I needed to stop thinking about all of these things and start just being in my body where that started to become my safe space. That should be the safe space. So just tapping. And then, we learned a lot of Qigong and, and Tai Chi techniques. And for me, meditation is, is really great. I, I can do that.

But there was something about connecting movement with breathing was very meditative for me was like a moving meditation. So part of my healing, I think, really comes in the form of like Qigong movements and stuff like that. Now of course we’re gonna immerse ourselves in, meditation for a week in the very near future, with an expert.

But I think there are many, many ways to get that energy balance. Once you have an understanding and given tools. The point is, [00:40:00] Not that we don’t have the information accessible is, it’s more like, are we going to use it? Are we gonna practice it regularly? And I will be the first to admit. There are times I get so busy that I’m like, oh my gosh, I didn’t get into my body at all today.

And guess what? My body will tell me. or Krisanna, Krisanna will also tell me . So yeah, energy mouth. Your body tells Krisanna, and Krisanna tells you , I think. Yeah, they’re, in cahoots with each other to help me. . Yeah.

Krisanna: And also I’ll just add about, you know, the gut brain is really powerful and there’s so much science around that and, and we hold our stress and a lot of our trauma in our stomach, so it gets cold.

And so when we put attention towards it, it is interesting. You know, I’ve experienced my own kind of releasing and then we hear people telling us like they start doing work on. Abdomen area and like the body will start shaking. It’s like releasing years of trauma. And that can be kind of scary cuz we’re taught also that like, that kind of shaking is not good.

And of course it’s [00:41:00] amazing how science is like proving all of these things that have been around for thousands of years, that this is very healthy for us. So I think it’s amazing that just having the attention on the stomach and the gut brain and then of course there’s now a lot of science around the heart and heart coherence and so it’s all connected.

Our whole body is just trying to send us all these messages. But yeah, for myself it was incredibly transformative to do the work in my core, which I know released a lot of stuck trauma that I didn’t even have memories of. And I just can feel myself getting more and more access to energy. Like my body didn’t have to, protect me from whatever that was.

Mm-hmm. , I didn’t even have to know what it was, but it’s like, oh, I’m having more energy and I have more joy. And it’s just amazing how it all goes together.

Gissele: It is. Yeah. And then you have more energy to create, to focus on what you wanna create. Right. it’s such an incredible thing to witness unless you’re doing it.

I have had, experiences with Dr.

Joe stuff, Dr. Joe Dispenza. And I was having those weird body shakings and [00:42:00] energetic releases, but I wasn’t connecting the two, I was just like, oh, you know, Googling the YouTube and people will be like, oh, that’s very normal. I’m like, okay, that’s, that’s , that’s fine.

I did wanna comment on something you both had said, that I think it’s important for us to stress, which is, the allowance. And so often in our lives we’re in so much under so much resistance. We don’t wanna be where we are. We hate what’s happening to us, but it’s that resistance that prevents it from really going.

And so being in harmony, it’s, it’s part of that is being an allowance. what role has allowance really helped you in getting to the, to where

Dana: you are? I, I think allowance is almost as important as self-love and compassion because I had to let go. Allowance to me means letting go and just allowing whatever the outcome to be.

without forcing, without pressure, without, [00:43:00] I mean, just so much angst over what the outcome was gonna be. And I’ll be honest with you, when it was realized that I was going to be part of the film and the protagonist and my journey was gonna be followed, can you imagine the amount of pressure I put on myself?

Oh my gosh, I have to heal during this filming. Like, what am I gonna do if I don’t get any better? And I, at some point something clicked in me and it was like, oh my gosh. The amount of pressure that we put on ourselves as humans to make sure everything goes exactly as we want it to is just, it’s so, I think, detrimental to the human spirit in a way, because it just, it just makes things really heavy and.

That’s how I felt for the longest time until I allowed myself to be where I was and not try to push and force. So allowance is really important and I think it in the letting go, and [00:44:00] accept, so actually it’s really as important and it is combined with self-compassion and whatever, you know, loving yourself looks like.

It’s certainly not putting pressure on yourself to be something different than you are in that moment. The more I could accept myself, even, even accepting the anger, even accepting, feeling defeated, feeling like a victim, I actually had to process those feelings first, because usually that’s what I would suppress, like I wore as a badge of honor.

Like I, I am so strong and I get through everything, and I forgive everybody, and I’m not, I’m never angry. I thought that was such a good quality . Mm-hmm. , you know, but it wasn’t healthy for me. . It’s very normal and important for us to express when we’re sad or angry or frustrated and then let it pass. or when we’re afraid.

I had so much fear, you know, there’s a reason why animals in the wild, they get chased and then after they shake, literally physically shake, [00:45:00] shake it off and go back to their life, they’re grazing, whatever. I know we hear that term a lot, but it wasn’t until I started to understand that I needed to process those things and allow, allow the anger, allow the pain, allow, allow it all to pass, and then I could move into, you know, a more authentic state of being, which was everything.

So, yeah, allowance is, is huge.

Krisanna: I love these questions so much by the way. Oh, thanks, . Really beautiful. I love this conversation. . Oh, same, same. Yeah, it’s just refreshing. , think I just intermixed, I, I interchange the word allowance with acceptance. Mm-hmm. . So, to me, there, there’s actually a moment in the film where this beautiful master o talks about, healing is the, like, the pathway of accepting, or, I don’t know, I’m like blanking how she says it, but it’s essentially, it’s accepting, it’s accepting everything.

And I really had to sit with that, that that sentence has, has, stayed with me for a long time. And I [00:46:00] find if, if we align with the message, I’ve heard this a few times in the last few weeks from a few different people. I really respect. I think some of it was in our Joe Dispenza training, so I’m like, oh, this is something coming to mind for me right now that I need to absorb, which is everything is either motivated by love or fear.

And so if we look at those two, well, acceptance is love. And then fear is the opposite. Anything that comes out of fear. So when I’m afraid I control, I judge, I think things should be different. I don’t understand why it’s not happening sooner. Like all of that is in this fear emotion that I think, it’s important for me to just love and accept.

So I, it’s interesting the dance of, of love and fear, but I think acceptance just says it’s okay that you’re afraid. And, we don’t have to change anything. And I’ve been even asking myself this as it relates to my, like people in my life or even close family, what would it look like if I just accepted them exactly as they were and I didn’t ever expect them to [00:47:00] change and I didn’t ever expect them to do anything different than what they’re doing.

What if that’s like their divine right to exist as they are? It feels so hard, , but. , that’s so loving and isn’t that what I would want for myself from them? And isn’t that what I, how would I would wanna even treat myself? Okay. So that’s my work is to accept myself and accept and, and even this was a journey as, Dana was on her, on her journey, I realized I was not well.

I needed to learn to be accepting of her choices for her own healing. That’s her divine, right? She got to decide if she wanted to take pain meds or not. It was not up to me to tell her, you need to take pain meds because No, no, no. You know? So, man, I just think that’s like the secret of everything. If we could just sit in acceptance of all that comes up and then observe it and be like, well, it’s really interesting how mad I’m getting about this right now.

Okay. I’m just gonna accept myself and love myself through it. , oh, do we’d have access to, it’s like, goes back to the other question. We’d have access to so much more [00:48:00] energy because our brain is so. I have to control and I need to be safe. And it all comes from fear. So yeah. Even the work I feel like I’m doing right now is how do I send that inner child who is so programmed to fear, how do I just send her so much love that she’s like, let’s, let’s down.

That angst or, or the angst reduces, I guess even if it’s never gone, it’s like, oh, you don’t have to be in the driver’s seat. The fear is a guide I wanna move towards. Yeah. The things I’m afraid of. Cuz the other side of that is really great, but that’s only through love and acceptance.

Gissele: Yeah, absolutely.

One of the things that I, in my own journey of learning to love myself, I had to ask myself the very difficult question of even if I accomplish nothing in life, even if I don’t do anything or help anyone or do anything, can I still love and accept myself?

Can I still see myself as worthy of my own love and attention, and that was hard. It was hard for me to look at, cause I was always, [00:49:00] I always had the need to accomplish. I also had that perfectionism in terms of like, oh, I gotta contribute and it has to be a huge contribution.

And oh, and it’s like, no, no. If I can look at myself and say, I don’t need me to change, I don’t need to be a specific way, things don’t need to be in a particular way. I can still see myself as worthy just because I exist, just because of that, like that, that’s powerful. And what you said is so powerful. If I can allow myself.

I don’t need people to be different. I can just allow their divinity to be in as long as by first starting to see the divinity in myself, and it’s like, that’s . It’s like, wow, I wanna get there, .

Krisanna: Mm. I’m gonna have to sit with that. I’m gonna, I wanna do some journaler journaling around that because yeah, I think I, I’m still like, no, but I’m here to do a lot of things

So .

Gissele: Yeah, exactly. And, and so we are caught in this accomplishing in this doingness instead of the [00:50:00] beingness mm-hmm. , instead of just being, I am magnificent. You are both magnificent just as you are.

And I think sitting with that interesting how the more love you inject in there, the more stuff comes up to, you don’t even have to go looking for, like, you don’t have to dig for gold in there. You just, as soon as you inject a little bit of love in there, that stuff comes up, goes, no

Here are all the reasons why I don’t think that would work. Right. And so I can feel very, very challenging, but, but worth it. And the other thing that I also wanna stress that you pointed out, which I think is so phenomenal is, you know, and I know in my journey I was the perpetual student, I was always looking for experts.

Tell me what to do, tell me how to fix it. And then I had to realize, oh no. Like all these people are my guides. But if I don’t do the work, if I’m not there to be my own hero it just goes nowhere.

And so my relationship with my teachers has sort of changed,my relationship with other [00:51:00] people has sort of changed because really, No one’s coming to save me . Right. How has your relationship with experts changed?

Dana: Oh, man, that’s a great question. I feel like I don’t put so much weight on the opinion and idea of others anymore because those are things that they believe and may have worked for them.

And I found myself in the beginning of my healing journey when I started to unravel all of this looking for like, well, what, who had my condition? Who had spine surgery? And then what did they do? And I’m gonna do that. I’m gonna do the same thing. And it was like, that’s not how it works, . But I really had, I was so, I just felt so desperate for healing.

And you know, people experienced that physically, emotionally, like, well, what are you doing? What works for you? And. . I think for me, just recognizing [00:52:00] that I, I wasn’t looking inward for decades of my life, so it’s really hard to expect somebody to recognize that they’re their own best healers. That sounds outlandish to them.

Mm-hmm. you know, my dad is a great example. He is, had chronic pain as long as I can remember. Back pain, leg pain. It was like so similar and he, his hip and he’s getting injections and he is just always putting the power in the hands of these surgeons and doctors. And at some point, you know, we got the film done and I was like waiting for him to watch the film and I thought this was gonna like, completely change his life.

And he would take a different route and start to take the journey inward and do the work and, you know, maybe it planted a seed, but he’s still doing this outward approach, like, who can help me, who can fix me? And I honor his journey. You know, my dad is in his late sixties and. and it hasn’t been easy for him.

And it’s asking a lot of us as humans to crack ourselves wide open. [00:53:00] And I recognize the amount of courage that that takes. Mm-hmm. . But once you do that and can start to listen to those inner callings and, and things that are intuition is, is deep down telling us, waking up every day and realizing I need to ask myself, what do I need today to feel most whole and have the most amount of wellness, mental, physical, emotional, spiritual that I can have today?

What does that mean? Does that mean I give myself a break and I sleep extra? Does that mean I do something for somebody else because that’s gonna make me feel most alive today? Does that mean I do my, you know, meditation and my Qigong maybe, maybe I go to the gym, maybe I take a walk. Whatever that is, I think it changes for each of us.

Mm-hmm. and recognizing that those answers lie within and not in somebody else is life changing. I’m so grateful to have that now.

Krisanna: Yes. Amen. I think experts are very important and I think [00:54:00] also realizing that we’re all one is very important because if we’re all one, then we have access to the same information and knowledge and counsel. And similarly, especially man, I just feel like Dana and I’s whole relationship has like the same month we got serious and our relationship is the same month that her pain journey started.

So this is, and I, you know, there’s no negative feelings about that, but it’s just interesting that that’s also been our journey. So in the beginning for several years, and especially the more desperate we got, we did a lot of what I call giving our power. and I now look back at some of those decisions and I think, you know, there are no accidents, but I have regrets because, it caused a lot of pain.

even in giving our power away, because I think there’s people that are really incredible and do a lot of good in their expertise. And then I think there’s people who can, like the [00:55:00] ego, likes to do, who can take advantage and it can be for their own gain and even our entire medical system. There’s a lot of beautiful things about it.

But then there’s also parts of our medical system that take advantage of people that look at the amount of procedures versus the outcomes, you know? So, in giving our power away, I just found that, you know, we weren’t any better off. We just like basically had less money and more pain and more suffering

So now really what I feel like we gained in this journey, and something that I like to share about is just sovereignty. maintaining your sovereignty. And it doesn’t matter how much you feel like you’re suffering, it’s not ever worth it to put your healing in the hands of someone else. But like you said, to see them as guides.

And I also think that I, our intuitive ones told us there’s as many healing paths as there are people, because everyone’s healing path is so unique, right? So we all need a different access point. So even when people, now, people, you know, people from all over the world email Dana and [00:56:00] are looking for answers and she just encourages them like, yeah, here’s a set of resources.

But you have to go inside and, and maybe start somewhere, but very quickly you’re gonna feel like, ah, this isn’t for me. There’s something about it, or, Oh, maybe there’s something here that I should pursue because I’m curious about it and I feel compelled to learn more. And then that leads me to someone else and then that leads me to someone else.

And so, yeah, I just, I think we’re over the, the idea of gurus. I think there are plenty of people that still need to give their power away for a period of time, and I honor that journey. Even in religion, we see that sometimes we need to look to someone else. But my hope and what I know is true for my own journey is that eventually I realized, oh, that was just a mirror pointing back to me.

What’s possible. So when I see someone like Joe Dispenza or someone like this incredible level of influence, that’s what’s possible. That’s the limitless potential inside of me that I also have access to. And what if I just looked at that within myself instead of saying, I need him or I need them. I [00:57:00] look at that within.

There’s some well there that maybe I won’t be on stages, but for me, maybe it looks like creating films, maybe for someone else, it looks like raising their kids in a beautiful way, that they become humans who help other people. You know, like there’s all of these ways in which we can access that limitless potential.

but you know, I just, I, I really honor those who have that influence and keep pointing us back home because that’s ultimately where all of it resides. And like I said, if we’re all one, if we’re all the same consciousness mm-hmm. , then it’s all within us anyway. Yeah. Yeah.

Gissele: Wow. What you both said is so, so powerful.

Yeah.

That’s, I got nothing . I got nothing left to ask. It’s just mic drop in here, .

Krisanna: Well, thank you for such thoughtful questions. I mean, it sounds like you’ve been on quite a journey yourself. Fantastic. I have, I have

Gissele: definitely been on quite, quite a journey. , you know, Dana, you mentioned leaving your work. I left my [00:58:00] work that was very, you know, very similar to the medical system.

I used to work in the child welfare system. very fear-based, very constricting, very focused on separation, isolation, not on purpose, it’s just how we designed it because that’s where conscious, consciously we were. Right? I find these systems are just a mirror of where we are as assess as human beings, what, what our level of conscious awareness is.

And so when I look at my life, how I dealt with hurt was separation, isolation, get away from me. I don’t want to or punishment. And so what do we see in our world? Jails, medical systems that are all about cutting stuff off, taking stuff out, separating, isolating, and how do you deal? How do we used to deal with people with mental health issues?

We used to separate and isolate anything that is aberrant. . one of my, the degrees I did was in statistics, right? And they have this bell curve thing where it’s like, but do you know that the bell, like the majority of medications and all that stuff is done for the 80 percenters, right?

Like, for the majority of people that the, you know, [00:59:00] and there’s outliers, people that don’t fit into this curve, and we’re all so desperately trying to fit into that curve because we have this need to belong. But miracles are outside the curve. Magic is outside of that curve. It’s outside of that norm, or we’ve deemed norm.

And so that’s what I am really playing with now, right? Like, you know, like, like this film, like not, not the norm, right? And so, and, and this is why all of these point to magic and miracle, which . I think it’s our birthright. It’s our birthright to live this experiences and live with joy and abundance and all of these things that we want to experience because, like you said, we’re consciousness and consciousness wants to expand, whereas fear makes us contract.

Hmm. And so, so yeah. So it’s been an interesting journey of really getting to know myself and facing my own fears. And this, your film resonated so deeply with me in a way that I didn’t [01:00:00] expect, I thought is Oh, that’s cool. I, you know, I’ve had seen, I, and I’ve done Dr. Joe’s work for a long time as well, and I love Dr.

Joe’s work and can’t wait to see him and when he comes to Toronto . but, but there was something about your film that was so deep and so it just resonated with me in a way. that I hadn’t, a film hadn’t in, in a long time. And so I went all in and I’m like, okay, let me see it. And, and then when I did, I was, like, I said, I was crying with Dana.

I was like, you know, and, and I thought, wow, wow. Just, you know, like, to be able to express that connection with someone that I don’t know that I’m seeing in a filmto me it was, wow, that’s powerful. That as she’s healing and she’s screaming, I’m doing it with her, I’m, I’m connecting in that way.

So, so thank you. Thank you for that. Hmm mm.

Dana: Thank you for that that makes, such an impact on me [01:01:00] because in those moments I felt, so vulnerable and so just, ugh, gosh, I can’t even explain. How a lot of the things that things we show in the film and things that we didn’t just felt so vulnerable and I felt alone for a long time.

And then after the film was released and we started hearing from people just like you, that expressed how even in watching the film, they felt parts of them start to heal or open up in ways that hadn’t before. And I think, yes, you know, Krisanna and I have been put, I think together as a couple and also placed on this planet to help spread awareness, raise consciousness, and spread a lot of hope and healing through our films.

And it just blows my mind. We did it like it’s actually happening. The film’s been out a year and we still get messages from people that blow my mind, and I’m just so [01:02:00] honored that it impacted you in such a way that took you another step on your journey and maybe opened up something different for you.

and that you allowed us the opportunity to have this beautiful conversation to share with others. I’m just really honored.

Krisanna: Thank you.

Gissele: Thank you. I did wanna give you an opportunity to share with our, my audience, like where can they find you? Where can they find the film? What else are you working on? What do you wanna promote?

Please share.

Dana: Okay, I will share about Love Heals, and then I’m gonna pass it to Krisanna because we are, creating something new as well. So if anybody listens to this and they want to see the film, I’m actually gonna do something a little bit special for your audience because the film is not available all the time.

We do limited releases and we’re creating strategic partnerships. And, the great news is, you know, we’ve won some awards and film festivals and our film is being accepted, to be na nationally broadcasted on p b s maybe in the fall of this year for a couple years, but there’s still no guarantee that you’ll see it.

So [01:03:00] if your audience would like to see Love Heals, I’m gonna give them a private rental link and so they can go to love heals.com. I’m sorry, take that. The website is Love heals film.com/rent. that is not accessible publicly, but if people are feeling like, gosh, I really wanna see this film now because they think it would help them in some way, I also don’t wanna hold that back from people.

So there is a rental fee, but you know, right now it’s just not available for purchase or available all the time. So, I suspect that will change in the future. Mm-hmm. , this is, this is the year we’re still really pushing out partnerships and, and creating a lot of momentum, and then I suspect later on it will be more available.

Oh, and also we have a really cool social media platform, like I think Love Hills film on Instagram and Facebook. We have a community there. it’s really interactive. We share some really cool behind the scenes stuff, so we’d love to have you follow us on social media as well. For sure.

Krisanna: Krisanna. Yeah.

And well, it’s [01:04:00] really amazing because. in creating Love Heals and the response that we’ve gotten, which by the way is not all glamorous, , like, releasing a film is a lot of hard work. Mm-hmm. and Dana is kind of the main force behind that now because I also have my own business and I have other client work.

so anyway, it’s, this call, I will say is very refreshing to like remember back because sometimes the days are just long and hard it feels like. And that’s okay cuz this is the chapter that we’re writing and trying to help a lot of people and, and all that to say, This really sparked in us something like, like a new calling, I guess, where we just decided, man, together we are a force and we can create content that really helps spread hope and healing throughout the planet.

So Dana just, she was compelled after she saw this article from HeartMath about heart coherence and the studies and the research that have been done between horses and humans. And she also had an experience where she saw an autistic child speak for the first time she was at seven years. [01:05:00] in working with a horse.

And that just sparked in us something like, what is going on here? there’s some magic to this horse scheme and connect connection, but it’s not just about the horse. The horse,is its own powerful, energetic being, and there’s science around that. But then the research of heart coherence, which is where, you know, Joe Dispenza teaches and others teach in that way, like how to achieve that yourself.

And, and we’re making a film about that and we’re just going on a journey of discovery. And I think it’s about connecting to ourselves, which also helps us connect to nature and mother Earth around us. And horses are really like a beautiful access point, to that. And they also have their own sovereignty.

And even the caretaking of these animals is a reflection of how we care for ourselves. So yeah, I mean, we are just exploring that. So that film, we’re super, super excited. and it’s called Rescued Hearts film. And we just put the website up, rescued hearts film.com. And that’s a great way you can also connect with Dana and I.

Our businesses [01:06:00] live wild films, , so I know we’re giving you like a lot of different options such No, this is great. But yeah, we’re just on this journey of like, I think this is gonna be one of many. As we’re in production of this film, we have other people reaching out to us saying, wait, I’d actually like for you to do a documentary in this, and then I’d like to hire you for this.

And so we’re being very selective, but we feel,how we wanna spend our time and energy is in creating content that just encourages people to do the journey of going with and, and the remembering, the remembering of our, of the power and, and this well of like wisdom that exists inside of us. And sometimes we just need to be, encouraged in that way.

So yeah, check us out. Rescued hearts film. Mm-hmm. . We plan to have the film done by the end of the year and which is a very exciting and. . in the world of documentary, it normally takes two to three years, so it’s a very tight deadline. But we did love heels in nine months, so we feel like it’s possible.

We feel like the world needs this message now, and we like to put deadlines on it so that it doesn’t drag out, like mm-hmm. We have to, so we’re doing a lot of production anyway. thanks for [01:07:00] asking, but we’re, oh, no, this is great.

Gissele: This is so great because I think you point to something really pivotal in your film, which is we’ve become so disconnected with ourselves that we’re so disconnected with nature.

Right. And I think this is why we’re seeing things as they are. The weather is weird. how do we reconnect back in a way that is harmonious and imbalance? Yeah. Beautiful. Mm-hmm. , thank you. Thank you so, so much for being on the podcast. I so appreciate this. I would love for you to come back with me.

Your next film is out . Yes. To promote it. We could talk about it. I’m definitely in, in seeing it . So yes. Thank you so, so much. See you soon.

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Transcript:[00:00:00]

Gissele: hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast, with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world.

Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. On today’s podcast, we’ll be talking about parenting with heart, and we’ll be talking to Joe. Joe has worked with children and parents and families for the previous 10 years. He started out as a qualified teacher. he then quickly became interested in helping children and families on a deeper, more holistic level by becoming a play therapist before training and compassionate inquiry.

And at the Newfeld Institute with a background in psychology, play therapy, teaching, and now compassionate inquiry. He’s a particularly keen in working in supporting families, parents and adolescents, and he’s also just started his own podcast called The Caring Instinct. Welcome to the podcast, Joe Atkinson.

Hi, Joe.

Joe: Hi. Thanks for having

Gissele: me. Oh, no. Thank you for joining us. So looking forward to [00:01:00] chatting about this. Yeah, I was wondering Yeah, sorry,

Joe: go ahead. I said me too. Yeah,

Gissele: yeah, yeah. I was wondering if you could start by telling our audience how you got interested in, Compassionate Inquiry.

Joe: well, to do, I, I’ll have to go back a little bit further to I, I, before, I started teaching, I was studying addiction, psychology and counseling. That was what I kind of did fresh out of university. And, there it was,I read a book by Gabor Matte. . Mm-hmm. very famous in Canada and around the world.

Mm-hmm. in the realm of hungry ghosts and, About addiction and, and, as I moved into childhood, you know, he, he was also writing about child development and mm-hmm. , A D H D and other books. So I kind of just was always following his, what he was doing and, and, so that took me to, when I started working with children, I was always following his stuff.

And the story goes, I had children myself, they’re now four and two, and I wanted to, um, I wanted, I didn’t wanna work with children [00:02:00] and go home to children. I wanted a bit of, a bit of balance there, to be honest, . So my intention was to start working with, with, with adults and, and do something a bit, you know, have a bit of balance.

And it just so happened that Compassion Inquiry just started up around that time, so I was just straight into it really.

Gissele: Mm-hmm. for those who might not know, can you tell us a little bit about what Compassionate Inquiry is?

Joe: Compass Compassionate Inquiry is a psychotherapeutic, approach developed by, Dr.

Gabel Matte. it’s, it’s an approach to, to counseling. and it’s kind of a, a cocktail of, of how he’s, developed, approach of the process of working, of being with people in, over the years, which he was, I think he was kind of put under, under pressure to, share with others. He didn’t really think it was a thing and then, he decided to do it and it’s, it’s taken, taken off and, you know, been a big hit.

And, I’m really grateful to, to have, studied and been a part of it. Yeah.

Gissele: [00:03:00] Why did you think that he didn’t think it was anything that he should share?

Joe: because, the way he talks about it is he, it was just how he would, he naturally, interacted with people. Mm-hmm. and, he was a doctor. He worked with addictions as well, and he, he wasn’t a, a therapist with, with training.

Mm-hmm. . but he became very famous and, and would do a lot of talk. A lot of research would write books and he would spend five minutes with someone or 20 minutes with someone. And it, in my mind, it kind of developed in this cocktail of as he learned and put things together and intuitively formed it just, so for him, I think it was just something he did.

Gissele: Mm-hmm. So it naturally flowed

Joe: through him. Yeah. It just naturally flowed. If someone would say, you know, no, that’s a thing. Oh, maybe it’s not a thing, but, yeah. And

Gissele: what does it

Joe: entail? it’s, um, it’s, there’s, we would call them stepping stones. So there’s,it’s an inquiry and we might be guided by our own curiosity and, and interested in what’s, what’s showing up in the [00:04:00] moment.

in entails a lot of body work, noticing feelings going into childhood, and, you know, finding out about coping mechanisms and patterns, beliefs that might underlie the behavior, which we’re really interested in, exploring and, and, and which show up and manifest as, as issues in our, in our, in our lives.

Really. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And that’s why I find the link to, with children really interesting as well, because, you know, with children we’re very interested in, in behaviors and pulling and, and pulling and pulling at, pulling and pushing at behaviors and shaping them very early, so. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I like the links.

Gissele: Yeah, for sure. And I, and I know one of the key aspects of the, compassion piece is the curiosity, is the shifting away from the place of judgment. Yes. do you think it’s easier for us to do that with children than it is with adults? Oh,

Joe: depends. I think it [00:05:00] depends on a lot of things. For some, for me personally, it’s, it’s, it’s always been easier with children.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think for some people it’s harder with children and some people it’s just different on different days as well. Yeah. But, yeah, I think it’s j it depends on a lot of things. It could be anything. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What’s it like for you?

Gissele: I think it’s, . I think it used to be, like you said, very similar in terms of, I used to be easier for, for me to be more, I would say caring, kind, open, curious with kids.

I think I historically expected a adults to know better. Yeah. whereas, now it’s more, the more I became compassionate towards more loving and compassionate towards myself, the more that I didn’t need other people to act differently. And so I was then able to be more open and more curious about them.

Yeah. Okay. But in the beginning it was, it was definitely more. Okay. The kids. Yeah. More likely.

Joe: And I think there’s a lot of people and, and I [00:06:00] think some, but on the other hand there’s some people that, oh, we really, we really need to get these kids up to, you know, up to standards or socialize and stuff like that.

And maybe with adults they think they’re, you know, it’s too late or something like that. So they can be really. , maybe the opposite.

Gissele: Yeah. And I think you, you raised a really important, topic, which is, how the school system is sort of structured, right? Yes, yes. I think the school system is structured in a way I see it in my kids’ schools, is structured more around the achievement, less so much on the social emotional pieces.

Like to me, I would love to see, schools teach about self-love, self-compassion, healthy relationships, like those key things that we’re always, always striving for. And yet the focus really is on math, arithmetic. Like tho those things that are more like, yeah, achievement base,

Joe: what your, you can, you have, you do have those things, but they’re kind of like, you know, they’re on the outskirt, they’re not, it’s not a [00:07:00] central part, it’s a mm-hmm.

it’s, it’s like, okay. It’s almost like, okay, we’ll put it in there. Kind you mean

Gissele: like as an afterthought.

Joe: Yeah. And, it’s, yeah, something that’s around and, and, you know, people take it seriously and it’s not a joke, but it’s not, it’s not as central as it as it should be. Hmm.

Gissele: Yeah. So, yeah, and it’s interesting that you mentioned that because, you know, to me that’s sort of fundamental, especially in, in like when you look at bullying and harassment that can happen in schools.

It can be sort of challenging for children if they don’t, are not able to regulate their own emotions. So, and if they’re not able to regulate their own emotions, it’s hard for them to learn. And so you would think that there would be an invested interest in teaching those skills so that the kids can absorb more of the information that is being taught.

But yeah, it’s, it’s sort of strange that way. Do you think that the school system sort of needs. [00:08:00] Some revamping or do you think that it’s, it’s good as it is, or what are your thoughts on the subject. Oh,

Joe: definitely. Yeah. I, I for sure it needs, revamping for me, it’s, it’s really lost in the uk and there’s a lot, there’s so many children with, they’ll get diagnosed with a D H D with, with, with a whole number of different, disorders you might pull them in.

One thing I notice, here in the uk, and I think it happens, in other countries, is that there’s, there’ll be certain behaviors that might manifest oppositionality or, there’s frustration or there’s, there’s, there’s the, there was this acting out and the school’s general approach is, there must be a problem with this child.

And so that’s where the attention is. And we, and then we’ll, so we’ll get together. We say, okay, what’s, what? Must be wrong with it? Maybe he’s got, there’s something wrong with his, brain or something’s, so a disorder or something like that. And that’s where the energy goes. and it’s [00:09:00] very hard to step back and, and look at the environment they’re in and see it as, as, as part of it as well.

And we kind of just get lost, lost in that. And then what happens is families get lost in that thought as well. They, they go down the path. They might look for a specialist in, in, in whatever, and, and we kind of get a bit lost, but everything points towards the child as the one who’s got the problem. Yeah.

And in, in a way That’s right. They’re manifesting that, you know, that that’s where we can, there are issues. You can see that. But it also gives that message to the child that you are a problem. And it just makes things much harder.

Gissele: Yeah, for sure. And it’s interesting, I, I think of that quote that talks about how, you know, if a flower doesn’t bloom, you don’t blame the flower

Yeah. You look at the conditions that which Yeah. Prevented the flower from coming up, right? Yeah. but you’re right, we spend so much of our energy and attention on the blaming thing, right? Because it can’t be [00:10:00] the system, the system is set up in a specific way. And I think what I, what we don’t do well is deal with outliers, right?

Whether it be too intelligent, what people consider too intelligent from an IQ perspective or not, they’re the, the systems are mostly made up for the people that fit a box, they fit the 80% box. And for those people that are out outliers, rather than the systems being able to accommodate, it’s sort of like you as a kid have to adjust to these systems, which makes it more challenging.

Joe: Yeah, for sure. And I think, Yeah, you’re right about the outliers but also, I, I think the people that are don’t get a notice are in there. It’s almost setting them up for, issues later in life as well. They kind of, they almost go sail through school, maybe without any big issues or anything, but they come out of it whenever it is 18, 19 to it’s 16 to 20, and they have no idea who they are.

Yeah. They’re,there might be depression or they, they just, [00:11:00] they’re ju they’re very lost. And the, the school system works very much, you know, you have, you do your year and then we pass you onto someone else and it’s very narrowly for, you know. Okay. I’ll, we want to get you up to a, yeah, here we have like, great, you know, a number seven or eight, and then I’ll pass you over to the next and then we’ll get you up.

Yeah. And that’s. It’s, it’s really hard to see the big picture.

Gissele: Yeah. I had heard that it was sort of like the, factory work, right? Like you just kind of like piecemeal things. Right. And that was, it was structured similarly to factory work and the times also align with people working. And so it’s, it’s very much structured that way rather than self-directed learning or self-interested.

Whatever you’re, you, you’re interested in, you’d gravitate. And it’s interesting to me that the schools that are, that are not publicly funded work that way. Right? Like the Montessori is All of those, those kinds of schools. it seems a little bit strange to me that, that we’ve [00:12:00] sort of created these systems.

Joe: There’s a guy, Ken Robinson, but here, he died recently actually, but he’s got a TED Talk and, in one of them, he said if you went to any business with the, with the, with the school model mm-hmm. , they would think it was crazy. I e you know, you, you tell them, okay, we’re gonna get your workers from nine to 10.

We’re gonna get them all to do accounting for an hour. Then we’re gonna ring the bell. We’re gonna make them get up, go to a different room, forget about accounting, and do marketing for an hour. Then we’re gonna ring a bell. Then we’re gonna get them to get up, go to a different room, and they’re gonna do, sales for an hour.

Gissele: the business would just laugh. They would just laugh at you for, for if you were trying, would try and get them to implement that model. It’s, it’s a weird way to do things.

Joe: Mm-hmm. and I think schools were, the whole reason they came about was to, the main reason first was to get people into factories.

Gissele: Mm. [00:13:00] But I don’t think we’ve mo modernized them too since that time. Right. It’s like, I think, I think it’s based on a very outdated

Joe: model. Yeah. It’s like we’ve been sucked into them and even if we’ve changed ourself, which we’re, we’re still kind of plugged into that system.

So it’s, it Yeah. Even if we don’t have the same intentions, it doesn’t work.

Gissele: Yeah. And even I was reflecting on, so I’ve done some post, graduate degrees and, even those systems don’t seem to really work, like with the ability now to learn on online platforms, to learn from different sources to Google anything.

Right. It, it just makes you wonder how these systems are really gonna survive. Like it’s, it’s kind of seems sort of outdated, right? Like Yeah. Yeah. It seems sort of like these systems really aren’t Yeah. Helping

Joe: us be optimal. And the, [00:14:00] ironic thing for me is that, my kids are foreign too. So I’ve seen, you know, they’ve not, my daughter’s only just started school.

Mm-hmm. and you know, already they’ve learned so much and they’ve not, you know, the learning process is very natural. Yeah. In a way we get in, we get in the way of it more than we help it.

Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. And they’re so, they’re, they gravitate naturally to learning. Hmm. But we sort like, these systems sort of, I think make it harder.

Yeah. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about some of the work that you do with parents, because, especially in parenting, compassion is definitely needed as a parent, myself and you as a parent. can you talk about some of the challenges that you have seen in working with people and we can, you know, talk a little bit about some of the challenges that come from parenting.

Joe: Yeah, sure. So, where do I st it, along with a similar line of what’s happening with the schools, and education is, to me [00:15:00] almost feels similar for parenting as a, as a general, it’s here that, you know, you can go into the books stop here, and there was, there’s thousands of books, well, maybe thousands of exaggeration, but it feels like over hundreds of books on, you know, this is how you parent.

Yeah. this is what you do. Slightly different, lenses or ways to do it. But this is almost like it’s a skill to be that we have to learn or all of a sudden and it’s, it’s almost like we’ve lost our confidence to, to parent. And, I, my belief is that that’s come from a part we’ve lost, we’ve lost our connection to ourselves and.

in some ways. And part of that might be that compassion that, that, that is so useful in parenting. So what I would, if, if I could do it, if I do, that’s great if, but my intention is to help parents to kind of reconnect to themselves and find that kind of parenting [00:16:00] instinct within them. Mm-hmm. I really don’t wanna be telling people what to do or, this is how we do, because it puts us in a, almost like a dependent role, which is actually feeds the anxiety of, of the children that they might be with.

Cuz they might, they might need another session or to read that next book or stuff like that. I want to empower parents or give them that confidence to, you know, that they know what they’re doing, even if they’ve not read the book.

Gissele: Yeah. I love that you said that, because we feel the same way, which is like,

You can read a thousand books. Yeah. But it’s you doing the work. It’s you doing the, the showing up, the difficult conversations. They’re leaning in. They’re leaning out.

It is about tapping into your inner wisdom as a parent. And so I love that you said that we really have lost our connections and our trust. our trust of ourselves. Yeah. why do you think that is though?

Joe: For a whole load of reasons. I think it’s,let’s go back to the [00:17:00] schools as well. Cause it, I mean, it’s almost like their, if the intention of the school is to produce factory workers, it’s kind of an intention of it to disconnect from, from yourself as well.

So, it comes at from many different angles. It feels, and we just lose. We just, we just lose it. We just lose it. And it’s a very, my personal experience very, even when I feel like I have it as well, it’s a very fragile thing to hold onto. You know, I might have it, but then something happen, you know, and it’s, it’s just gone.

You know, it’s not there. It doesn’t come back for a few hours or you, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s something that really needs our attention. We’re, , our attention has been hijacked as well with phones and, yeah. social media and, and entertainment and, and these kind of things. We’re just, so many things in societies seem to be pulling us away from ourselves.

Mm-hmm. or advertising. That’s what it’s, that’s how it works. We are on, and [00:18:00] so it’s a very, you know, we’re going against the flow in this, this work. Yeah. It’s, it’s natural in the sense it’s coming back to ourselves, but at the same time, very unnatural in our environment. So it’s, it’s strange, isn’t it?

Gissele: Yeah, it is.

It, you know, as, as you were talking, I think one of the things that I truly believe is that we tend to give our authority away to other people and to other things. Right. And so we, there is an element of us, you know, and I say us because it’s all of us as human beings that have created this world, that we have these systems, these things.

there’s an element of us that it’s like you almost don’t wanna accept responsibility for what you’ve created. And so there’s a group of us that are okay with people telling them what to do. It’s okay with following these rules. It’s okay with the right, because then you don’t have to accept responsibility for your life and what you created.

[00:19:00] Yeah. But the, you know, you mentioned manifestation earlier. The ability to manifest into, align to all of the good in your life comes from the accepting responsibilities, okay, this is what I’ve created, or this is what is currently happening. I’ve contributed to this. And from here, from my point of power, I can move towards focusing my attention and energy on what I do when I create.

Yeah. And so there is an el an element of, okay, have I, I’ve absconded my responsibility to other people as experts. , right. Or from this book or that book or whatever, but then are not really stepping up into our own power. And, and that makes it really challenging for us to work from that place. Right?

Yeah. Especially in parenting.

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, in that sense, it’s a very, you know, leading parents into a vulnerable territory almost just to, rediscover that responsibility or, or find that it can, when you get there, you’re gonna [00:20:00] feel everything, all the highs and all the lows. Yeah,

Gissele: exactly.

Because don’t you cuz don’t we want somebody to fix it? Like I I’m a parent of teenagers. You’re, you have little guys, right? Yeah. So I’m a parent of, you have teens and pre-teens and sometimes the stuff that they go through was not stuff I went through. Very different challenges. Sometimes it feels so heavy and you don’t know how to help them, but you can’t save them.

Right? And so, but you wish somebody would just like, you know, would just tell you how to, how to do it right. And you can’t, and it, and that uncertainty, the unknown can feel really uncomfortable, I’ve said this to my teens at times and we have a great relationship, but there’s times when they’re going through their most challenging times when I say, I don’t know how to help you.

I don’t know, What do you need from me in this moment?

It feels like, oh my God, I should know this. Like, maybe there’s an element of self-criticism, like, oh, I should know this. I’m their parent.

Joe: Yeah. You feel, and there’s,[00:21:00] out, there’s a guilt that comes with maybe not knowing it or not, having those answers in the moment. Yeah, and we, I feel as, especially with stuff like guilt as well, a lot of the, the books out there and the advice is to kind of steer away from, from guilt, you know, get away, you know, guilt-free parenting, I think there’s books called as well, guilt-Free, oh, these kind of things.

And it’s the same comes coming back to the connection or coming away. Mm-hmm. . For me, it’s the same thing. It’s, it’s leading us away from the connection to ourselves. Guilt is something that, when it shows up, in my work, I always say, great. It shows that you’re, you are, you care, you are, and you are in a, you are in a relationship where a part of you really wants to take responsibility for what happened.

Mm-hmm. , it doesn’t mean it’s true. It doesn’t mean that you by the cause or you don’t have to go with it or make it right or wrong, but it’s gonna be then either side. [00:22:00] Mm-hmm. . So just always Yeah. Have your guilt. Yeah.

Gissele: It’s sort of like, welcome those emotions. Don’t make them wrong. Right.

Joe: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I guess what, how that links into, to what you were saying, is it, it’s the Yeah. Having your emotions, having that experience that that unknown is that guilt and being able to stay with it. Yeah. And there’s like really leaning into it.

Gissele: Yeah. One of the interesting things that I think that, you know, I’m so, blessed to have the children that I do, and also to be able to have the conversations that I do with them.

I remember as a kid when I realized my parents were human. Yeah. I think I, I had my parents in a pedestal and then when I realized, like sometimes when they, when, you know, when they did different things that were so hurtful, you know, like realizing that, oh, these people don’t know what they’re doing.

Yeah. My God. Like, you know, and, and, and really sometimes feeling so hurt. I took the [00:23:00] opportunity to tell my kids kind of early on in the relationship that I didn’t always know what I was doing. It’s that sometimes I wasn’t gonna get it right. And it’s sort of like, forgive me in advance, right? Like, so I, you know, like really talking about doing the best we can and not always getting it right and being able to talk about it and ask for forgiveness and talking about that doesn’t mean that.

You know, I wasn’t confident as a parent. It just meant that I understood that I was a human being first, working through learning on my way to how to become a parent, and that I was going to stumble and make different choices. Yeah. That maybe I was gonna look back and go, maybe not. And so I think that that kind of helped me in the way to have a better relationship with my kids rather than having that.

Why do you think we have that kind of, how was it received? Yar key? Hmm? How

Joe: was it received? Huh?

Gissele: It was actually received very well, in fact that they, my kids kind of joked about like the fact that, you [00:24:00] know, yeah, I know . It’s sort of like, it was sort of like a funny joke. Right. I think that sort of helped when.

like the fact that we were able to come back and say, I’m sorry about that. Like, I think that the, the being able to come back and talk about the fact that like myself or my husband had made a mistake or the willingness to talk about how that felt, was good. Like I, I think it was, I think they still, the kids still held us in a pedestal, some sort.

I think I, I think it might be a natural thing for children to do. but I think once we fell off the pedestal, I think they were like, oh yeah, they kind of told us . Yeah. Yeah. So I think they still had that pedestal thing, but I think when we fell it wasn’t as far to fall

Joe: maybe. Yeah. Yeah. It’s almost like what comes up for me, when you talk, it’s like it gave you, the space to pause in the relationship and just explore what was happening for maybe both of you, and they were old enough to, to do that with you and, and, [00:25:00] and see.

And I imagine that if you couldn’t, weren’t able to do that, then you weren’t not, you are not leading them into that territory of being able to pause themselves.

Gissele: Yeah. Although it can feel challenging at times. Like when I, and I’m interested in, in, you know, what you, what you would tell parents. Like if I, if I cannot regulate myself, I cannot help them regulate.

Yeah. But sometimes, sometimes they have a hard time with me saying, I can’t help you right now. I need to put my own oxygen mask on first. There’s times when I think my children want me to fix it, and I’m like, I can’t fix it for you. I can’t do this. I, if I could, I would’ve done it already. I would’ve been like, fix

Yeah. But I can’t. But sometimes there’s like a little bit of that parent guilt, which is like, oh, I wish I could be there for you. But I know right now that my bucket is empty. Mm-hmm. What would you say to Pam?

Joe: A few things come up for, first of all, it, It makes a [00:26:00] difference developmentally where the, the children are at.

So for my children, four and two, I wouldn’t do that. yeah, fair enough. With, yeah, they’re, they’re just too young. Because until the ages of about of five, at least five, five to seven children can only have one feeling, one emotion, one thought in at a time. which is why ev everything’s, you know, pure and the tantrums and yeah, I believe in Santa Claus and these things, that’s, everything is just one thing at a time.

And then if everything unfolds, like, you know, your, your flower analogy, everything, the potential is realized, then we’re able to mix, emotions and feelings. So, we can have, love for someone and, you know, want to hit them at the same time. And we can have them in the same, but it might not. unfold is a tantrum that our experience has become, are tempered.

So for younger children, if I’m saying, my bucket is my bucket is full, I’m giving them the message that, [00:27:00] the they’re responsible, they’re responsible for my feelings. Oh yeah, for sure. So it’s too, yeah, it’s just, and because they can only have, do one thing at a time, then that’s what they’re gonna do.

And they’re just could have, they’re almost become the parent in the relationship. Yeah, for sure. And everything gets skewed and, so it depends. Development. And even though that is potentially could happen, five or seven, we’re all different. We all have different, so sometimes that, you know, it depends.

That’s why we all know our kids be, you know, moms, they know their kids best, so we’ll all be the ones to know this. So that would be the first thing that comes to mind. And, the second thing is, yeah, it’s showing that we’re, when, when it is, when they’re developmentally right. When you have that sense, it’s, showing the human quality of the, that we are not, yeah.

You know, we can’t just, we can’t do things anymore. You are, it’s [00:28:00] experiencing what, what’s it like for you in that moment is it might be frustration or sadness or, a mixture. And you’re just showing these, the, the, these normal, the normal kind of journey of, of, of the emotions and how they show up in life and they just get to see that in you.

Gissele: The reason why I raised it with the, because here it’s good. I’m not sure the same in Canada, but you get, you hear a lot of, with young children, you know, don’t hit me, you make me sad.

Joe: Or, that makes me an angry. And we’re almost taught in the books to Yeah. Share our emotions with our young children. Mm-hmm. You know, with the aim to teach them the behaviors, the pushing and pulling of behaviors, which is. kind of what we really wanna get to. Yeah. And they’re just developmentally, they just can’t handle it.

And what it does, it just sets them up to be the parent and take responsibility from, and the only way they can do that at that age is shutting [00:29:00] part of themselves down. Mm-hmm. , which, which fills it. Which ironically maybe suits them in our society. And it looks, it might look like everything’s going well and, and, everything but it’s, it’s, it’s not good for

Gissele: development.

Oh, for sure. Thank you so much for raising that. That’s really, important because, developmentally, in terms of where the kids are, you can have those conversations. I can have those conversations cuz my kids are older, right? Yeah. And so my kids are 14 and 12.

the fact that I have older kids, I’m able to say to them, you know, like if they’re struggling, okay, I, I, I just need a moment to regulate myself. , and then I can help you co-regulate. Or I will say, you know, like, you know, what do you need from me? So in, I can have those conversations with them, but when they were little, that’s a totally different thing.

That’s sort of like a, a tap in. Like my husband would have to tap in if I just, if I just didn’t Yeah. But I, I didn’t have that emotional awareness at the time. Yeah. For me it was about giving, giving, [00:30:00] giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, giving. And then I would get frustrated when I would give.when my kids were little.

I didn’t have that awareness that I have now about the need to put my own oxygen mask on first. But I think what you said is really key about how, how little or how old are they when you can actually start to have those conversations, right? Yeah.

Joe: It’s, but what else, another thing that comes up for me is, we’re not meant to parent in this, in this, way.

We’re not meant to be, you know, quite often it’s just one parent in charge. If we’re lucky, we’ve got two. even if we’re together, you know, being in the same place, you know? Yeah. For however many years we’ve been around, we’ve been in tribes, there would’ve been aunts and uncle, you know, and, and just the kids would just be bouncing off.

And so the chances are you wouldn’t have, you know, filled up anyway. Yeah. Or if you would, it [00:31:00] would’ve been a seamless move out and it just, it wouldn’t have had the same EF effect that it does in our, you know, parenting, you know, isolated parenting systems that we have now. It, it just, it’s, it’s kind of a new thing, which is, which has grown with our society.

So I said, you know, you just have to experience, you know, have your, have your emotions for what’s, what’s happening. Just you have to experience it and, yeah. have space for

Gissele: it as well. I think you raised the other key thing too is that like the need for community, right? Like we really are raising our kids in isolation, especially if you’re a single parent.

Yeah. The need for that community, the need to come together to help, us really come together and I am so grateful that you have learned so much about parenting. Remember when we used to have to let our kids cry? That was so [00:32:00] painful. It was, it was very painful for me in particular. I found it. Really, I just couldn’t do it.

Yeah.

Joe: We were told to do this.

Gissele: Yeah, it was, we just, we couldn’t do it. Like, I just couldn’t, couldn’t it, it was so heartbreaking. Like it was heartbreaking for me. I just couldn’t regulate enough for me to allow them to cry. It was grading to me to hear them cry and cry and cry. but that’s the advice that we gave.

Right? And so, but now we’re saying that that advice is outdated and hurtful.

Joe: Wow. Not, not so much here in the uk, I don’t think really. I mean, there is part of us that there is, it’s not the only way to do it, but it’s still very common here. Yeah. Oh yeah.

Gissele: No. So one of the things that we hear like at least now is that that is, is not a very loving thing to do.

That there’s the reassurance needs to, to happen still. Like that re reassurance in terms of. , you need to come back, sooth and then go and come back sooth and do [00:33:00] it that way. but even then it’s, I just don’t think that we’re meant to parent in the same like what you had mentioned, which is when you think about the olden times and not that I was around and the olden times.

Yeah. But when you look at tribes and communities, the babies are with the parents everywhere they go. Yeah. Like have, have we studied if those kids have attachment issues, like, cuz when you see, you see them with their parents constantly. Right. In community. And then when, when you think about the, you know, there’s that model of attachment, there’s that model of attachment that says, you know, if kids are securely attached, they will naturally go and explore.

Like once they have that secure attachment, the home base, yeah. They have a home, a securely home base. Yeah. Then they can, that attachment, if they’re securely attached, they will actually wanna explore. They don’t wanna be next to you. They wanna actually see the world, but they have to have that reassurance that there’s that secure base.

Joe: but a lot of parenting techniques are the, [00:34:00] to, you know, you can be too secure. Let’s say that the attachment can be too secure or there’s an, a worry about that. But, I mean, I studied a lot with, Neufeld, Gordon Neufeld and he would say, just like the plant analogies that you’ve used before, you can a, a plant or ch it can never be too securely attached.

Yeah. It can be too insecurely attached. Yes. But it’s very different.

Gissele: The model I was thinking is circle security. . Yeah. Okay. So it’s, it’s the nurturing, it’s called circle of security. So there’s a nurturing, and the more that there is that secure base, then the kids naturally go and explore, and then they’ll come back to the secure base, and then over time their exploring becomes bigger than that secure base.

Yeah. but growing up I wasn’t taught that because my parents didn’t have a secure base. Right. They grew up with a, you know, some child abuse and neglect and so it, it kinda, it’s amazing how it gets handed down, those kinds of old perspectives about [00:35:00] how we, how we should parent. I, is there anything that we do currently that you think maybe years from now I’ll go like, mm, maybe that’s not the best thing we could be doing?

Joe: Oh, I think most of it, . , I would say. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there’d be a, we’re not squid. I feel like society’s quite open about this. We’re not set up for, children or. family, you know, we’re set up more for the economy,getting a bigger G D P and, and getting people into, the workplace. Mm-hmm.

that’s where our focus is. Yeah. We have things set along that road dotted around like the, you know, that might support these kind of things. But that’s the, the main goal of, of the things we have in the, the, the schools, the systems are to take us to that place. And we’ve bought into it

Gissele: kind of, because we think that’s what [00:36:00] determines success, right?

Yeah. Like IUC success. So it’s one of the things I’m thinking about because, because my kids are older, they’re thinking about graduating high school and what do they do next? Yeah. And there is this real impetus towards, well, they gotta go to university and they have to have good paying jobs and whatever.

And so, . And so I, I see that, that, you know, you know, my children struggle with not knowing what they’re gonna do. And should I know this now? And it’s like, no, live your life, have joy, right? Like live the most in this moment. Do what, what, what brings you, what brings you the greatest pleasure? What I mean is like, for example, like if, if drawing is something that fulfills you, maybe that’s what you wanna do a career in, right?

It’s, it’s, it’s so thinking outside of this conventional, you gotta be a doctor, a lawyer, engineer, right? Yeah. It’s, it’s what makes, what gives, makes your heart sing, brings you joy. And could that be your life path, potentially,

Joe: right? Yeah. And even if it [00:37:00] isn’t on the, you know, the economical path to, you know, we all live in the real world.

It’s something you can have space for in your, in your life. It’s, and pe there’s so many kids that just don’t have any idea of what that is. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s where they just, they just dunno what they wanna do. They, and they don’t for a career, for a hobby or they just don’t, they’ve not, they haven’t had space, they haven’t been alleged to that place where they can find that.

Gissele: Well, and I think, you know, from my perspective, I think that would be a great opportunity for schools to do that. Right? Like, I mean, they, they go to career counseling, right? Like, oh, you know, you do a survey. Yeah. Yeah. it seems like they still do the same things. When I was younger, they did a survey and they’re like, you’d be good for social work.

I didn’t end up doing that. I did that. I did something. I didn’t even know what social work was, but

Joe: social worker accounting and I, it, I don’t like it though. . It’s like,

Gissele: yeah, [00:38:00] so, so they, I think they still have the same survey cuz I think my daughter mentioned that she completed it. but. . So rather than really aiming to cultivate what brings you joy and what really is your gift to this world in in right, it’s more like fit this box.

And so, you know, and I don’t mean that as a form of criticism, this we’ve all contributed to this world that we have created. Hmm. It’s just, I think we are kind of redefining what we mean, what it means to be happy, what it means to be joyful, what, what it means to be successful and to be fulfilled. Yeah.

and I think that those changes will reflect also as well in terms of how we parent children. Yeah. Right. And, and the sort of expectations that come along with being a parent. Because I remember my parents had expectations of me and I’m trying hard not to have expectations of my children in a way that is diminishing.[00:39:00]

right? Like that, that, you know, it’s sort of that unconditional love. You’re only lovable if you achieve. You’re only lovable. If you are successful. You’re only lovable. You can, you are still lovable. Even if you decide that, I guess playing on electronics all day is what you’re gonna do.

it might not be a good balance. And so one of the things we talk about with our kids about is having living in a balanced life, right? Yeah. Which is having good exercise, going out, having fun with your peers. You can do some electronics, right? Like that brings you joy and makes you play with people.

But also you have to have other aspects of your life that are in good balance. Yeah. Including, you know, honoring yourself in your environment, which means chores and you know, like taking care of their body, like hygiene,

Joe: for example. And how is it received when you have.

Gissele: To be honest, I, in all of this conversations that I, with my children is stuff I’ve learned along the way from them and from our interactions.

I find. So before, when I was, when I was [00:40:00] younger and, and hadn’t gone really through my self-love, self compassion journey, I had a thing about cleaning cuz my mom was a bit of a clean freak. And so I had a thing about cleaning and I, there was so much, so much resistance to it. I would force them and I would, I didn’t realize I was making them miserable and making myself miserable every weekend when we would clean.

And then one day I just, I had it with myself and I had it with that. I, I didn’t want to have to suffer through another weekend of cleaning. And I didn’t wanna make them suffer because they would complain about how much I was making stuff when they were littler. They were more apt to cleaning. We could, we would make it more fun, but as they grew older and sometimes they just didn’t wanna do their chores, there was a lot of resistance in me and then I, I would put a lot of pressure on them.

And so then one day I just said to myself, I’m done with this. If I really want this to be clean, I’m gonna do it myself. Like I, if that’s really important, I think, why do I want them to do these chores? And I said to myself, okay, I want them to, because I want them to have these skills to be able to [00:41:00] take care of themselves in their environment when they leave elsewhere.

Right. Because when they leave my house, when they leave from not being with me, I’m gonna have to do it right. Or I can hire someone. And

Joe: so, and that’s just to jump in there that Yeah. Mm-hmm. But please continue after the, yeah. Just to check out the idea. And I feel like this in society is that our responsibility to teach these, skill or teach these, and you can, we do, it’s almost if you can teach someone, how to clean, , but you can’t teach them to want to clean them up.

Clean up. Yeah. Yeah. Two very different, but yeah, go on.

Gissele: So what I found was I let go of the resistance of the need for it to happen and then the need for it to happen in a specific way. Mm-hmm. I sat down with my kids and I said, basically, we feel that you doing a chore is your way of saying thank you.

It’s it, we’re all responsible for keeping our environment clean. And from our perspective, it was about skill building. It was about, you know, when you leave this place, you [00:42:00] honor yourself and you honor your environment by keeping your things tidy, keeping your body clean, all of those things. When I changed my approach and said, you know, and then I started to say, you know what?

I’m gonna teach you how to clean the bathroom. So I went through the different steps, which I hadn’t done before, right? Mm-hmm. I, and then I sort of let it go. And if they didn’t do their chores that week, I, I honestly said, okay, do I, is it important for me to clean this? And I would just do it myself? I found once I release the resistance, It became harmonious.

And honestly, my kids started to do it themselves. Out of their own volition, out of their own joy. one of my children will hum and Haw at times. Yeah. But then I just remind them and say, this is how we’re building a skill. This is what I’m teaching you this time. And then the whole thing flips.

It changes. It goes from resistance to, oh, what am I gonna learn? What am I gonna learn that I didn’t know? And they’ll say, oh, I know how to do that. And I say, well, did you do this? And then he’ll go, oh. No, I didn’t. And, and there’s, there’s the [00:43:00] re i, I see the re the, the resistance release. And they’re more open to being able to know, oh, I’m learning a skill.

I’m learning something that I can have on my toolbox rather than it being, I have to do this. I’m your child’s slave . Yeah. Which was always the perspective, right? Like, oh, you know why you just want me to do this so you have somebody. Right? And so once I realized the resistance, like once I realized that I was making everybody miserable and decided to let go of that, the whole process just became harm harmonious from, from my perspective and I think from theirs as well.

I mean, sometimes we squabble over like the dishes and stuff that still, but then at the end, my husband and I will do them, and then we just kind of rather see the space cleaner than, yeah. Yeah. But that, that

Joe: was hard experience. What comes up for me as you, as you share that is the, there’s a kind of, you brought them, into relationship more.

Yeah. With, with that and the values. , our values get passed. They’re passed down more naturally. In that sense, there’s not, whereas when there’s, it’s forced, like you say, and there’s, [00:44:00] it comes with all your emotion and your what, whatever’s going for you. There’s just a very natural no, not gonna do that.

Yeah. Resistance to it. And, we’re just, you’re just really far away from them in that point. But you found a way to come, come to their side or come closer to them. And whenever you’re there, the tea, it is just, the teaching is just effortless, isn’t it? It just, oh, this is easy. Whereas if I’d asked you in, in the resistance, you might have said, how do I do?

You might have, I was the victim,

Gissele: Joe. I was that me how to do this. Yeah. I was like, I’m always doing this. And sometimes I do fall into that victim mode. And then I, what I’ll do is, you know, I take opportunities to say, okay, what do I need in this moment? Okay. I, I really need to. Myself to ask for help to whatever.

And then so I will give myself what I need in this mo in that moment. And then I can’t let go of the resistance. But until I do that, I’m not [00:45:00] open to, to that shift. And so, but this has been through like, you know, learning through making mistakes, which is what I love what you said about, you know, going back to yourself in terms of what feels right for you and your relationship with your kids.

Because all kids are different, right. And so what each of my kids needs from me is different in their own ways and how they communicate with me those needs is very different. Right? Yeah.

Joe: yeah. And brings me back to the, at the point, at the beginning, very often when we ha, when we notice these troubles or things aren’t working just like the schools do, it’s very easy for us to get the problem is in the child.

Yeah. Whereas you were able to stay with yourself. Might have took a bit longer than you wanted to, but you were, you, you stayed there and there was, you know, you noticed something and then there was a shift and everything else just flowed. There’s no, no one, I tell me if I’m wrong, but no one told you what to [00:46:00] do or it just kind of worked.

You knew what to do that in that place, but you wouldn’t have got there without having to go through that or notice what was happening and then there’s some kind of release for you and everything came from there.

Gissele: Yeah. And that’s when I, you know, in, in, in my parenting journey, like it’s really been about trying to understand.

In the beginning it was about trying to understand my kids, right? Like it, and it, it still is of trying to get to know who they really are and to really see them. Cuz I didn’t feel always as seen and, and it’s not purposeful. My parents were doing the best they could, the same way that I am doing the best they can.

We all sort of are, right? Yeah. it’s more about understanding how my beliefs about them, about who they are and my reactions impact the relationship. And so, and so what I’m trying to [00:47:00] say is, is it, it’s really important for me to, to understand where I’m at, at every moment. Like when I’m triggered by my kids, I take that opportunity to say, okay, what’s happening?

What do I need in this moment? What’s happening for me? Whereas before it would be like, oh, this is your fault. You are doing this, or you’re not doing that. Yeah. Because if I can’t regulate myself enough, I can’t engage in conversations and sometimes I can’t. And so

Joe: for me, yeah, for say, can you do it live?

Or sometimes it’s, you know, looking back the day before, .

Gissele: I’ve done it live. Yeah. And this is where I had said to you that, you know, earlier when I said to my kids, I, I, I need to regulate myself right now, I’m dysregulated. Yeah. So I can’t, we can’t have this conversation in this moment because I’m not gonna be receptive and I’m not, but my kids are older, so they, they understand that piece.

Yeah. I, I have these conversations more with my daughter than my son. My daughter’s 14, my son is 12, 13, right? Yeah. So and so I just say, [00:48:00] I just need a moment. And they know that I go and, and meditate and, and I just need a moment to regroup, to really understand what’s happening for me. And then I can come back.

Sometimes it isn’t in the moment and I have to reflect back. And that’s where the apology is so important to be able to come back and go, I’m really sorry for how I acted. Then I can see that this is not, not making up an excuse, but I can see how that was, you know, hurtful or inappropriate or whatever.

. And I usually find my kids are very forgiving. Right. but yeah. Yeah. But sometimes you have to deal with all of those uncomfortable emotions. Yeah. What, what helps you lean in? Like, what do you offer, like what do you suggest to parents in helping them stay in those? Because sometimes it feels really mucky to feel with those feelings of shame and guilt in, in, you know, like those, those kind of inner judgments that we make.

Joe: Well, we, it’s really,how do I say my intention is to facilitate, cultivate a kind of [00:49:00] an, an energy all about compassion. having compassion for those parts when they show up. And,Gordon Neufeld would, I love this quote. He says, EV every child needs an invitation to exist in our presence.

An invitation to exist in our present. And I take that as well to mean, all parts of us. So, all parts. So the, my intention is as these emo you know, the hard ones that we experience, the shame, the guilt, the, whatever it might be, when, when, when it comes up, how can we cultivate a relationship with these, where they have an invitation to exist in our presence, which we can do now as, as adults, hopefully, not all the time, but in the right pla you know, sometimes live, sometimes not.

Can we make space for them at time and really get to know them, befriend them and, and, so it’s like cultivating that energy towards them. It’s in their relationship with them, just like it was in the relationship with yourself, with the [00:50:00] tidying up, which, which helped with, The actual outcome of it.

It’s the, that’s where I, I put the energy, I invite the energy to go mm-hmm. . So, and that starts with me. I’ll be, you know, let’s have a look at that. You know, let’s see that, that, that’s what the session’s all about. To, to, to have those feelings, to be, to lead, to lead people into the vulnerable territory like that mm-hmm.

Yeah. And hopefully from that, they, they can do that themselves as well. And they go and they start to do more. And, and that’s where all our natural wisdom is. Mm-hmm. . But these things have to just move first and we have to get to know them. And many of us, we’ve disconnected from them from an early age.

Yeah. The negative people call, say negative, positive emotions as well, and. The idea behind that, that we kind of get is, okay, we’re gonna move towards the positive one. I’m gonna get away from the negative ones, but [00:51:00] really the invitation is that they’re all, they all have work for us to do.

Yeah. Just like that. Guilt is a, is a, is a great sign that we’re in a, taken responsibility in a relationship within a re it’s great that we have it, not something that you might wanna, you know, experience on a Friday night or you wanna move to, or have, you know, like happiness or Pete or something like that.

But when it’s there, welcome it. .

Gissele: Yeah, for sure. And, and, and I love that you said that because it’s true there, there’s no negative or positive emotions. They’ll ha kind of have a gift that they’re giving us. Yeah. Sort of like a warning signal, right? Like it might be an annoying warning signal, but it’s telling us that something, it’s either we are in an out of alignment, like, you know, our Yeah.

Our leaves or actions may not be in alignment with who we truly are. Yeah.

Joe: and these emotions, they have work to do for, and the, the pr I would say the primary, primary work of the,[00:52:00]

and to, to, to help us stay connected and to, to, yeah. Mm-hmm. to help us form attachments. Yeah. And that’s where their experience in relationship. Yeah.

Gissele: Yeah. And I think in staying attached, in, in, you know, especially connected to ourselves and our own emotions helps us to have. or helps us to be able to bear witness to those difficult emotions that our kids have.

How do you manage your kids’? tantrums, ?

Joe: Well, if I’m on form, it’s a, you know, it’s just like that, that welcoming energy. It’s just, yeah, great. say it’s, it’s A tantrum of frustration. I didn’t get this thing, or this didn’t work out.

This is so, it’s great that they can have that emotion. in my, the, the back of my mind is, , how can I make it safe for them to mm-hmm. experience this and express it? Where am I, you know, maybe I’m at home and it’s just me and, you know, you don’t have [00:53:00] the eyes on you. It’s great. You know, we can, they can hit or scream or do something, and it’s much as maybe we’re, maybe we’re in a supermarket or something like that, and there’s eyes on me as well, and it’s, it’s harder for me to, to do that as well.

Yeah. So, but, and there’s so many different situations, but the, the always in the back of mind is, how can I keep, keep it, keep this, safe for, for this to move through them and mm-hmm. come with them, on that journey, come alongside them as they go through that journey. And what, what you notice when you do, when you do do that, and it works, is with frustration.

It will turn, it turns to sadness and this kind of a, a release and a. It didn’t work. Something didn’t work, and it’s the energy dissipates in it and it goes and it’s just, yeah. But, but when it, if it doesn’t work, if you don’t manage to do it, or you are in a, you are in the wrong place and it’s too much for you [00:54:00] and it, it kind of get arrested and it just doesn’t complete mm-hmm.

and you note what I noticed after, you know, we are just gonna have to go through the same thing, you know, later on, before doing a saver play or it’s gonna move somewhere else. Or maybe it’ll move towards my wife or someone, someone else in there who looks after them. And it would un it’s always, it’ll be kind of in the bank ready to move.

Yeah. For later .

Gissele: And That’s so great that you say that because I’ve observed that. Yeah. I’ve observed that with my kids. Sometimes when they are, like, they, they’re just so pent up. They need to, it’s almost like they need to push off that energy to someone else. Yeah. And then they’re fine. Yeah. And it’s sort of like, You know, and so rather than allowing it to dissipate, sometimes they just have to push it.

And then they’re fine, and then everybody else is in a bad mood. It’s so true. Yeah. I, I’ve definitely experienced

Joe: that.

And I love, you know, emotion. I know e in Latin is too, and motion is moved to mo. It just will always want to [00:55:00] move. And it says the process of coming alongside it and, and help giving it ways to move and, you know, wherever our kids at developmentally, the younger they are, the more, more help they’ll need to come outside.

And then as they get older, it can come out in different ways. More expressive in art or in writing or something. And it’s just always a changing, Process, but every time just trying to get, make the way to their side to be with them on that journey and not to, not to get in the way of it, in a way. Yeah.

But just to create, just to create safety around it. Or the other thing that I would have a, especially for young children, it is play. Mm-hmm. , can I bring it into a, a, a play mode mm-hmm. . And when that works, you know, if there’s a frustration with my daughter, you know, and, sometimes we can just go into this play.

We’re gonna have a play fight or mm-hmm. , we can go and do some, [00:56:00] do like, have a attacking each, you know, called each other poo poo heads and this kind of stuff. And it’s, it’s pla and it just, the energy just goes that way. Mm-hmm. . And it’s, it’s another safe way for it to move. .

Gissele: So you transform it basically.

Yeah. So rather than it moving and going in Yeah. You know, setting off a, a firecracker of, of upsetness . Yeah. It’s more around how can we shift it? We transform the, the, that

Joe: energy. Well, not, I mean, I don’t do it or we, it just, oh yeah. I’m just there when it happens. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s how I, I just, and, if I’ve created the environment, it will just happen naturally, you know?

Yeah. Just like it does, but, and if I haven’t, that one’s safe for later or it will, it will be displaced or, but hopefully what I don’t want it is for it to be pushed down or like repressed. Yeah.

Gissele: Yeah. And I think that’s, so when we repress those emotions, that’s where difficulties start to come. Right.

Whether it be like relationship [00:57:00] difficulties or Yeah. Or disorders. yeah. The, I was wondering is are, are both your kids the same gender? No. Oh, okay. My daughter’s. Have you found, it, it differences in terms of what is vocalized are acceptable emotions for children?

Joe: not in them so far, A bit too young for me to, about ge more generally with other children.

Yeah. There’s definitely,don’t be sad, is more, a bit more for boys than for, you know, these kind of things. And there’s, there are little, little things like that. And my wife will say to me, you know, she’ll notice that in me when I’m dealing with my son and my daughter, that I have a little bit, I have more, space for her emotions than, than maybe his mm-hmm.

I can’t see it. Yeah. But that doesn’t mean it’s not happening. Yeah. But these things can be very, you know, they’re, they are unconscious, so it’s just some something to. It stays with me to look out, but there’ll, there’ll [00:58:00] always be things we, we won’t be able to see in ourselves.

Gissele: Yeah. I think this is where it’s helpful, like to have a loved one.

It doesn’t necessarily have to be a partner, like you mentioned. Right. Yeah. Mirror back to us, those, those areas of growth for us. Right. Because like you said, we, we might not notice. Yeah. I remember my son when he was really, really little. he was such a loving and, and affectionate person. Just always loving and affectionate, always wanting to hug people.

And in my culture in Peru, like we hug and kiss people all the time. . Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, you know, but it was really, it was interesting to see the dynamics as he got older, how that was regarded by other people in terms of what boys should be doing and in terms like more acceptable in girls, not as acceptable for kids, for boys to show that kind of level of, you know, yeah.

Desire for hugs and love and, and that affection. And so it was interesting for me to see. because I, I guess I hadn’t expected it. Right? And so it was like, [00:59:00] oh, now the conversations have to be different. It have to be about like people’s, which is, you know, it’s fair, like people’s spaces and respect of like the boundaries and our culture versus other people’s cultures.

but it was interesting how, as the kids, my kids grow up, the, the conversations for boys and girls around what are the acceptable emotions, anger is acceptable for men, anger not so acceptable for women. Yeah. Sadness, not so acceptable for men, women okay. To be sad. So it’s, it’s weird how we limit that, that the toolbox.

But the kids need all of those tools Yeah. To be able to demonstrate. And so it’s interesting how we’ve, we’ve created a society that does that, right?

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, and yeah, we need all of them. And it’s weird and it is different. We, we have a similar thing in our, cuz my wife’s from Columbia.

Gissele: Oh, nice.

Joe: you know exactly what you were saying and we’re, I’m, you know, English we’re very

Gissele: No touch,

Joe: you know. Yeah. And that’s so it’s we’ll [01:00:00] find that, I’m sure we’ll find that as, as, as they get older as well. Cuz they’re being raised in England.

Gissele: Yeah.

Joe: we’re coming to the end of the podcast. I just want to give you a moment to tell people where they can find you, where they can come work with you. So tell us about your websites. Anything that you got working on, please share it.

Gissele: Yeah,

Joe: so my website is, www.joeatkinson.co.uk. I’m a therapist. obviously work with a lot of parents, but not necessarily, you don’t have to be a parent to work with me. I offer some mentoring for children as well, but, I, I work more with adults, now than I, than I do with children.

And, we’ve just started,podcast ourselves called The Caring Instinct. So come and check that out. the idea is that, we’ll, once it builds up, we’ll, we’ll set up a, a parent support group where, which we’ll meet once a month, and, and,yeah, the idea is for to, for parents to reconnect, to themselves and, you know, step away from experts and specialists, and we want to kind of create that [01:01:00] environment there to, to rediscover parenting in that way.

Oh, beautiful. And, yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s based on, the work with Gordon Neufeld at the Neufeld Institute. Please check him out and Yeah,

Gissele: no, it’s so great.

Joe: I’ll check out.

Gissele: Thank you so, so much, Joe, for coming to talk to us.

Joe: Thank you

Gissele: about your experiences and your knowledge and your wisdom. and, please check us out again on another episode of The Loving and Compassion Podcast with Gissele .

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Transcript:[00:00:00] hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele.

Gissele: We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe to our podcast for more amazing content. On today’s podcast, we’ll be discussing how someone who was so devoted to spreading hate can turn their lives around to focus on spreading love and compassion instead.

Our guest is an international speaker, Changemaker, and the author of the book, the Cure for Hate. He’s also a father of two and co-founder of the Not-for-Profit Organization, life After Hate. He has made it his mission to help people leave hate groups and cultivate greater compassion.

He’s an attorney turning in his previous life. He played a pivotal role in white supremacy and Canada, Welcome to the show, Tony Mcaleer. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. I wanna begin by saying just how much I loved your [00:01:00] book. It resonated so much with me and I, I found myself kind of giggling at the fact that I thought to myself, here I am an immigrant Latina, right, immigrant to Canada, who is resonating so much with a message from a white male who was, you know, background is from the uk.

and I chuckled at the fact that I thought, you know, your former, you would’ve been kind of amazed by that, right? Maybe

Tony: ab Absolutely. A absolutely, and it, it’s just sort of a testament to, you know, on the, on the surface, it’s, it’s something that’s my past is something that’s so horrific and out there yet be behind.

That is a very human story. And you know, I wrote it with. through the lens of probably a thousand hours of one-on-one and group counseling where I really, did a deep journey inwards to understand why I ended up like that, why I chose to do [00:02:00] the things that I chose to do and what I got from them.

And, you know, when, when I speak to people that are leaving movements behind at, at Life After Hate, which I left in, in 2019, but they’re, remain a great organization. there, there’s very human stories behind the sort of tabloid cover, labels that we, that we put on people. And I think that holds true for people mired in, addiction or, yeah, other areas of life where they’re, where they’re struggling and it’s easy to.

just read the tabloid cover that’s presented to us in past judgment, but when we get to know the stories behind it, they’re very human stories and they’re, and they’re themes that connect, connect all of us.

Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That’s so true and so wise. I was wondering if, I know in your journey your childhood played a key part in you eventually kind of joining the white supremacy movement.

Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood [00:03:00] and kind of how it led you to that journey?

Tony: Sure. I grew up in a very affluent, middle class neighborhood in Vancouver and went to, all boys private school. my father was a doctor. We were immigrants from England. I came when I was two in 1969. And I went without any sort of material wants and needs.

My father was a great provider, and that was his love language, you know? Mm-hmm. , yeah. Be, be a provider, as a little boy who didn’t get to see him very often because he was a workaholic. the thing I crave most is time and attention was in very short, short supply. And, when I was 10, I walked in on him with another woman.

And this man that I so idolized and, and worshiped, you know, I think there’s probably many of your listeners can relate to the time when the God fell off the pedestal, you know, in the, in their own childhoods and that really. Shattered my trust, not just in his authority, but in all the authority figures in my life.

I didn’t trust them anymore. And I [00:04:00] was angry and was a whole flood of emotions. And I went from being an A and and a B student to a C and a D student. And by the next year, the teachers at the school, all boys Catholic school, tried all kinds of carrots to motivate and inspire me. None of them worked.

so they resorted to the stick. And with my parents’ encouragement, they, gave me a deal. And that deal was if I didn’t get an A or a B in ma major tests and assignments, I was to be hit on the rear end with a yard stick. And you know, I think even to this day, as, as I think back to those times in the office over and over and over again, where I was getting hit on the rear end with the, with the stick, I don’t think I’ve ever felt more powerless than I did in, in, in that office.

Tony: And. I went from listening to Queen and Elton John to The Clash and the Sex Pistols, and got into the punk scene because I, that’s where my, my anger resonated and found a, found a [00:05:00] home with other angry, angry kids and people who didn’t feel that, that they belonged. And I just wanna be clear here. I don’t blame anything on my childhood.

Mm-hmm. , share with you these things from my childhood. So you understand the lens through which I made these, these choices. And what I got from initially, joining the, with the, with the skinheads and then later becoming a leader and, and into more serious organized white supremacist groups is I got power when I felt powerless.

I got attention when I felt invisible, and I got acceptance in community when I felt unlovable. And it’s, it’s these sort of emotional drivers, these vulnerabilities that are created. Through, adverse events in our childhood or traumas or, or whatever that create the vulnerabilities that make the ideology seem so seductive and creates the vulnerabilities that people like me, when I was a leader and recruiter, became [00:06:00] quite adept at exploiting

The, the, the common misbelief is it’s all about the ideology. And if we could just stop or change the ideas in the person’s head, or stop them from reading this or make them read that, you know, we can change everything. But while the ideology plays a significant role, these deeper, these deeper psychological drivers play a far, far greater role.

And, and these things become about identity. Mm-hmm. and they become about, they, they’re emo, they’re deeply emotional. connections. It’s one thing to convince a person not what they believe is wrong. It’s a whole other kettle of fish, to convince a person that who they are is wrong.

Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what you said was so spot on.

The first part I wanna address is, which I really, really, really resonated with me because I remember the day when I felt my parents, like when I saw them fall off the pedestal and I thought, oh, these are just humans, . And I had much the [00:07:00] same experience in that I stopped trusting the adults in my life. I thought, okay, I can’t trust you, so therefore I’m gonna be making decisions for myself.

And so I think I felt that part of the book. and so I thought that was so pivotal. The other part that I really thought was really important is that you make clear in your book, It’s not like you sought to be in a world of hate you, you didn’t seek to be in a, in a world of hate. You made a series of choices, which led to beliefs and thoughts, which then encrusted into an identity.

And so what you mentioned about you can’t just tell people that their ideas are wrongs because it becomes so enmeshed in who they are. what did you find or, or what helped you kind of shift away from that identity of, of aligning to the beliefs of, of white supremacy to one where you could actually start to soften it?

Tony: It started with the birth of the birth of my children. And there there’s a, a couple aspects, to this, you know, the birth of [00:08:00] my daughter when I’m standing there in the delivery room and this, I get handed this little baby girl and mm-hmm. , you know, she’s got scrunchy face and she’s like that and opens her eyes for the first time.

And, and, And my face is the first picture her brain’s gonna take. And, and I connected to another human being for the first time since I couldn’t remember when. Because you know, as we go through childhood, you know, if I think back who little Tony was, you know, at the age of three or four, I was this bright, curious, little mischievous, stubborn, sensitive, open to the world, little guy.

And as we go along, we learn it’s not safe necessarily to be sensitive or open to the world or, or curious. And we put on armor and we put on masks and we shut ourselves down in order to feel safe. Mm-hmm. . And I was so cut off from my heart, you know, and, and living purely in ego. and, and, you know, the ego should never be driving the bus , right?

[00:09:00] True. It’s okay. Chirping from the backseat. Yeah. And giving suggestions of where to go. The heart should always be driving the bus. but when the ego’s driving the bus and it’s not tethered to the heart, it can take us through some very strange and awful, awful places, as it did with me, but with my, with my children, I, you know, I connected, you know, for the first time since I couldn’t remember when I, I began to accept.

I was making decisions with someone else other than me as the primary, factor. And you know, the beautiful thing about children’s love is it’s, it’s infectious. Mm-hmm. and it’s safe to love a child, you know? And at the age of two and three and one, they’re not capable of shaming, they’re not capable of ridicule, they’re not capable of rejection that that comes in the teen , teen years

But, but in, in, in this moment, it became safe for me to allow the thawing to begin and to allow myself to feel and, [00:10:00] and to begin the slow movement from my head, into my heart. And my son who was born. 15 months later, I, you know, between the two of them, I got to parent them the way that I was wanting to be parented.

I had all the, the time and attention that I had craved as a child. I offered, offered them. I probably wasn’t as good a provider as my, as my father, but, but they turned out pretty good anyways. But mm-hmm. , it was very cathartic to be able to, heal those wounds, you know, and, and repair, repairing them through.

they’re doing that with my, with my children. And so they taught me my very, although I didn’t quite know it or understand it at the time, they taught me my very first lesson in, in compassion. They gave me my first taste of compassion and, and mm-hmm. , you know, what’s, what’s incredible is they, they couldn’t speak the word compassion.

Tony: They had no idea what it meant. Mm-hmm. they didn’t say, oh my God, that’s too hard. I can’t be compassionate with that person. And there was none of that . Yeah, none of [00:11:00] that limitation. in, in their minds and they just, you know, they, they loved me. And, and when we’re compassionate with someone, we hold a mirror up and allow them to see their reflection.

The humanity reflected back at them when they can’t see it themselves, when they, when they look in the mirror. And, and that’s what my children did for me. They, they saw, could see in their eyes and in their faces and their expressions. They saw this magnificent human being. And I didn’t see that when I looked in the mirror.

You know, that’s, that’s the, the, the, the problem with all these childhood, and events, and traumatic events, and it doesn’t have to be sort of a childhood event. It, it can be a catastrophic event around you. I mean, it’s not, it’s not necessarily that we have to, you know, suffer abuse or anything like that, but, That leaves us with, with the feeling that we’re not good enough, we’re not smart enough, we’re not pretty enough, we’re less than, we’re unlovable, we’re weak, we’re powerless.

And we go out into the world living our lives in reaction to that. And, and we put on mask to pretend ourselves to be powerful. And we, [00:12:00] we become, overachiever or perfectionists in order to hide what we believe, the false belief of what all our flaws are. Mm-hmm. . And, and that leads us to a, an alienation of the self to a dehumanization.

And I truly believe the level to which we dehumanize other human beings is a mirror reflection of our own internal disconnection and dehumanization and what my children did with me through that compassion. And just began the process of rehumanization. You know, if, if toxic shame is the root of a whole spectrum of antisocial outcomes for a person, whether they project it onto others, through what various forms of violence mm-hmm.

or whether they do it to themselves through various forms of self-harm. that compassion is the rehumanizing part of that, that dehumanization process. And, and that, that really started it for me. And another piece was when they were two and four, I became a full-time single father. And in the nineties, you know, it’s, it’s [00:13:00] not fair that it was that way, but single dads were like unicorns.

Yeah. And I got, I was able to transition. That became my identity, you know, you know, so-and-so’s a single dad. And, and I, I got, acceptance and approval and community with my family, and I got all of the things that I had been craving, that I saw it in the, in, in the white supremacist movement through the illusion of those things actually got for real.

and, and that sort of became my identity. So it was. You know, the challenge with helping people leave these movements behind is when you go into these movements, you excommunicate yourself from friends founding in society, and you go, that’s okay. I, I, I’m getting, I’m gonna get my needs met over here. I wasn’t getting it there.

Tony: And then when we realize that it’s all an illusion and it’s all false promise, and we become disillusioned when we go to leave, that those movements behind our old friends founding society aren’t waiting for us with open arms because we’ve violated the [00:14:00] trust and that that trust has to be rebuilt. And, and there’s this part in the middle that they call void where you have no identity, you have no social circle.

You know, you’ve, if you’ve left that behind and you haven’t established a new one, you’re in this place where it’s, and, and without that I identity, it’s a very lonely place to be in. It’s often where people. go back because the perception and the pain of the loneliness seem to, the mind seems greater than the pain of the dysfunction when we go back to that toxic, toxic place and life after hate.

We created, a community in that, in that void to help people, transition to the other side and reclaim their humanity and, and live, like compassionate lives in the, in, in the community. Hmm.

Gissele: Yeah. Thank you. You said so many key things. I think the first thing that I wanna comment on is the, children are such a gift, right?

Like, I, I do believe that our, at our very core, we are [00:15:00] loving and compassionate, but then we learn all of these things and create all of these barriers that, that kind of prevent us from being loving to ourselves and other people. . And so, you know, I was, when I was reading your book, it really struck me that, you know, you had such, such a sense of belonging that you said that, you know, somebody had asked you like, when did you lose your humanity?

And you said, I didn’t, I traded it for acceptance and approval. I was wondering, well, there was nothing left. Yeah. Until it was nothing left. I was wondering if you could comment on, the way that extremist movements in, in, in, you know, like extremism uses the language of love and compassion and belonging to attract people to that, to that kind of ideology.

Tony: Well, they, I mean, these are, these are primal human needs. Mm-hmm. , you know, as, as human beings, we, we need to belong. We’re social, we’re social animals. And you know, they, they use language, [00:16:00] they use the language of grievance. Mm. To, to drive a wedge between them and society. And then they exploit these feelings of the need to belong and, and they create a belonging around grievance.

And that’s what makes these movements so, so toxic. Mm. And, and so dangerous. you know, because the, it you be then get trapped in the identity of grievance. And, and one of the things I’ve learned through all of the counseling that, not only I went through, but that I observed and others in, in group and stuff like that, was that the identity of victim is the most disempowering state a human being can be.

And it’s not to say people aren’t victimized and, and that people, shouldn’t recognize that they’ve been victimized. But when we say I am a victim and the world is happening to me and I have no power, when we take on the identity of victim, it, it’s very disempowering and. and it’s easily manipulated.

[00:17:00] Mm-hmm. . And, and in this world there’s, you know, different, different, you know, it’s often opposing narratives of, of victim grievance that, that is manipulated and, and leads people to a place where, you know, if the, if the solution doesn’t include compassion, I it, it, it, it’s a false solution. It, it can’t bear anything.

But, but further, further misery.

Gissele: Yeah. And in a world of victimhood, there has to be, because we live in a world of duality, there has to be a perpetrator, right? Yep. And so we con continue to give energy and attention to that idea of victim perpetrator, victim perpetrator, and it continues that dichotomy.

Whereas compassion really has no other, there’s no duality in it. It’s like the feeling is more, less dualistic I would say, or pitting one against the other. What would you say your definition of compassion is? I’m curious.

compassion is, for me is, is, you know, the desire [00:18:00] to alleviate or taking action, to alleviate the suffering, suffering of another, so, or others as a, as a group.

that’s why I say, you know, things that are so much rooted in, in, victim identity, aren’t really about alleviating that suffering. It’s about keeping the suffering in place. And, and that’s why without that compassion component, it, it’s, it’s problematic. And, and you know, when I talk in the book about radical compassion , And in that, you know, there’s, there’s the need to, or the, the drive to alleviate the suffering of, of o of others.

Tony: And a radical compassion. I, there’s three components I talk about. One is that your practice of compassion must take you outside your comfort zone. Mm-hmm. , you know, and this age of extreme polarization. we are not going to solve this by tiptoeing around it. We’re not gonna solve this from within our comfort zones.

Mm-hmm. . and, and that requires courage. And, and I’ll, I, [00:19:00] we can get into the three Cs a little bit. The second piece is, it’s not just enough to alleviate the suffering of individuals or a group, but we must also take a social activist role and look at the environment which gives rise to or supports the suffering and, and work to alleviate that.

And the third, and it’s the most important lesson that I ever learned about compassion. I think it’s the most. Missed component of compassion is, is developing compassion for self and that that journey inwards to understand and have compassion for self. Cuz we can’t have compassion for others until we develop it within ourselves.

And I think that’s one of the, the, the bravest, most courageous journeys a human being can do is, is to turn inwards and take a look at, at the whole of us that’s inside the good and the bad. And, and learn to love and, and accept it. And, I had a great, powerful coach and mentor and guide to help me [00:20:00] through that process.

And the more I understood myself, the more I understood. . And as I started to understand others more and see, see them through that lens, it gave me glimpses back in, into myself. It was like this positive feedback loop. Mm-hmm. . and again, I say the level to which we dehumanize other, other human beings as a mirror reflection of our own internal disu dis dehumanization and disconnection.

That’s the, the negative feedback. The, the polarity of that is, is the opposite. The, you know, we humanize people as we humanize ourselves and as we humanize ourselves, we humanize, we humanize people and yeah. That’s why the, the, the answer has to be, compassion, you know, because I, as I talked earlier about toxic shame and, and that internal disconnection, compassion is the antidote to shame.

Mm-hmm. . And when we can, we can help people get to that, that place. It’s, and it’s, [00:21:00] it’s exponential, you know, if we want to give compassion to others, we have to mine it from within ourselves. Mm-hmm. . And the more we mine it from within ourselves, the more we exponentially expand our capacity to give compassion to others.

And, I think that’s a really, really important point because I think if we, if we’re compassionate for everybody else, but not ourselves, that’s not about compassion, that’s about ego. It’s about being seen to be compassionate. Mm-hmm. . if we’re compassionate to ourselves and nobody else, that’s not compassion either.

That’s narcissism. Hmm. And we have to hold, we have to hold both, at the, at the same time, in a healthy way. And, and I think at that point, it, it, it becomes a truly powerful, powerful force. not just in our own lives, but in the lives of other people.

Gissele: Yeah. I, I completely agree and I loved how you said in the book that it was almost a social responsibility for you to be compassionate and loving towards yourself because you loving yourself, translated to you being loving for other [00:22:00] people.

for us it’s akin to, you know, you fill up your bucket and then you give to people from your overflow, not from your reserves. Right? Instead of trying to, manipulate people or manipulate their energy or need them to give you something, you can, you flow from within. Exactly. And so I thought that was really, really important.

Gissele: And it also showed the interdependence in all things, right? So what I do for myself, I do for others, and what I do for others, I do for myself.

Tony: in this journey, the, I absolutely discovered that we are all, yeah, all connected and, and in intertwined. And when I was in that world of white supremacy, I didn’t see any connection anywhere.

We were individuals, we were groups of individuals trying to. Battle for scarce resources from other groups of individuals. And everything was, you know, the ego sees the world through separation, right? Mm-hmm. And heart, see, art sees things through, you know, connection. And I often say to people, I said, well, you know, listen to someone who’s reading from a religious scripture if they’re talking [00:23:00] about us versus them and pagans and infidels.

Mm-hmm. and the heathens and, and, yeah. And separation. You know, they’re talking from their, their head, their ego. Mm-hmm. . But if it’s about coming together and community and love and compassion, forgiveness mm-hmm. , you know, their, you know, they’re talking about the same book from, from their heart. You can, yeah.

You can listen to people to hear whether they’re head centered or, or heart-centered. ,

Gissele: you, actually in the book you talk about doing a lot of different things that you weren’t proud of. can you tell our audience how d how challenging was it for you to be compassionate towards yourself considering all the things that, you know, you talked about toxic shame, y you know, how hard it was it for you to deal with that toxic shame through compassion?

Tony: It was really difficult because I was involved in lots of street violence, you know, in the book. you know, there’s a, a gay bashing I write about, you know, that, you know, I remember with my, you know, with my [00:24:00] mentor at the time I was, it was doing a program on, workshop on public, speaking of all things

And he said, and we all had these ideas in our heads of what we were gonna talk about. And, and, he said, I want you to think of the most shameful thing you’ve ever done. And then I thought, , there you go. Then go up on stage and tell the story. Wow. And you know, that was the story where we had chased the gay man into a construction site and he, he hid under a, like a crawlspace.

And, you know, we were 17 at the time, and like kids at the lake, we threw stones into the darkness. And, you know, every third or fourth stone elicited a, a yell of pain and terror from, from this young man. And when, I remember when I told it on front of this class of 30 people and I couldn’t feel it, I, I was disconnected from it.

I couldn’t, I told it sort of as a third party mm-hmm. narrative. And he said, no, do it again. You’re not feeling it. [00:25:00] Do it again. And then it was okay. Now I want you to tell the story from his perspective. Well, you didn’t feel it. Do it again. And I think for two hours, you know, I told this story that took six or seven minutes to actually tell mm-hmm.

over and over and over again until I could connect to it, and feel it, and, and feel the shame in my role in it, and be able to express, that shame and really that compassion and, and forgiveness for, for myself was one of the hardest things I had to overcome. Because I know all the things that I, that I didn’t said.

You know, I think I probably did more damage with my words than I did with my fists, and, and boots. But it, it was hard. And I remember reading. The, the Dalai Lama book on compassion as I was trying to deepen my [00:26:00] understanding. And he said, you know, the more I have compassion and forgiveness for myself, the more I diminish my capacity to do harm in the world.

Yeah. And that really, clicked for me, and I realize I’m approaching this all wrong. Right. I’m, I’m not, I shouldn’t be having compassion and forgiveness for myself because I deserve it. I was sort of, sort of getting over my, it’s not about me. Mm-hmm. . Right. and I was hung up on my, whether or not I deserved it or not.

I deserve to have compassion and forgiveness for myself because the world and the rest of society deserves it. Mm-hmm. , you know, and if I, if I can’t have compassion forgiveness for myself, Then I’m still gonna be not a nice person. I’m still gonna be a jerk. I’m still gonna be, oozing harm into the world through, words or behaviors or anger or losing tempers or, or, or whatever.

Tony: And it was, once I flipped it around that it’s, it’s not about me. Mm-hmm. the world deserves it, [00:27:00] then I was able to get to that, that, that place. It’s the me part. Still put up a bit of a struggle, but I was able to, to get there. But it’s that, that paradigm shift was, was key for me. Mm.

Gissele: And you mentioned as well that what helped you in your journey was also getting forgiveness and compassion from others, those people that you had harmed.

can you talk a little bit about that?

Tony: Sure. No, that’s, that’s,I’d been doing these. personal development workshop. So I’d left, I got in the movement about 82, 83, left in 98. Mm-hmm. was a single father, and still lived, emotionally dysfunctional, life and drank too much and, and stuff like that.

And I started new career as a financial advisor in 2004. In 2005, I was doing,these workshops, put on by this, this guy named Dov Barron, who, he was from England. I was from, England, the, you know, I was from Liverpool, [00:28:00] he was from Manchester, and we, he’s about 10 years older and bonded over Monty Python and quirky British pop songs in the eighties and stuff like that.

Mm-hmm. and I really connected with him and, and did all of his courses about getting out, stepping out of your own way and getting rid of limiting beliefs and dealing with the ego and such. And, and the friend that had introduced us, eight months later, hands me a gift certificate for my birthday and I got the gift certificate and I open it up and it’s like, ah, great.

It’s a gift certificate for one-on-one counseling with Dov like , who,

Gissele: that’s exactly what I wanted. Thanks .

Tony: Yeah. Who doesn’t want therapy for their birthday? So I go in and, and, and the see Dov and, and I’m. Telling ’em about why I’m angry at my dad and why I’m angry at my mom and the, the Catholic school I went to and you know, all sort of, all the, the blamey bits you do at, in your first, counseling session.

And, and then I thought, do I tell him the rest? Do I tell ’em about being a skinhead and neo-Nazi and Aryan nations and stuff? And I like, Hmm, I, [00:29:00] I’m not sure cuz the reason I was terrified to do that is it when people have found out about my past, it usually meant the end of the relationship, if not an entire social circle.

And this was a relationship I valued and I’m humming and hawing and I’m staring at the carpet as if it’s gonna give me some sort of, cryptic clue and. He’s like, mate, just, you know, we only have an hour here. Just let it out. It’s okay. It’s safe. And I’m looking around the room like anything, but at his eyes,

And he goes, look mate, you look like you’re trying to swallow three golf balls. Just let it out. And, and in a sort of great leap of faith, I decided to let loose and I told him about skinhead and Aryan nations and Holocaust denial. And the more I tell him, the more he starts smiling. Mm-hmm. . And the more he starts smiling, the more annoyed I’m getting.

Here I am burying my soul in my first therapy session. And, and here the guy’s like laughing at me and I said like, what’s so funny? He leans in with a big grin on his face and he goes, you know, I was born Jewish. Right. You know, I’m like, [00:30:00] oh, of course. The irony, right? And I, and think back.

Watching with shame. And here’s this man who wants to heal me, wants to see the best for my family, and, and a man who loves me. And here I am knowing that I’d once advocated for the annihilation of him in his people. And he said, that’s what you did. That’s not who you are. I see you. I see little Tony.

And with that, I began sobbing. And, and you know, for the first time I felt that somebody saw me. And, and, and if, if this man could learn to love me, surely I must be able to learn to love myself. And that began a magnificent journey. into that self-discovery, that self-inquiry, the healing going, running towards the pain and the [00:31:00] wounds that I’d been running away from my entire life, and that had had cast a shadow over my entire life and, and was able to sort of, with his guidance weigh weighed into the muck and, and start to clear it out.

Gissele: Yeah. It’s amazing how unconditional love can be so powerful. just the, the witnessing of someone and being there without judgment, without the need for them to be different. Just seeing the humanity in someone else is so powerful.

Tony: to receive it from someone who we don’t feel we deserve it from.

Yeah. You know, it’s like, it, it’s sort of, you know, doubly powerful. And I, I’ll say this with, with the, with the caveat that I’m not saying for a minute, it’s. The responsibility of marginalized communities are people of color to take this on. I’m not saying this should be your first step in your journey of, in practice, of, of compassion, but I’ve certainly met enough people who was the next step for them, as, as people of color in marginalized [00:32:00] communities that in, in order to.

step out of their comfort zone and, and, and take their practice of compassion to another, another level. It was something that they chose to do and it’s incredible gift should you choose to give it, but I’m in no way suggesting it’s an obligation. Yeah.

Gissele: and thank you for mentioning that because I think that’s a really key point.

I love what, Valarie Kaur says about it, which is, you know, obviously, you know, put your own oxygen mask on first. Love yourself first. And if you can’t do that for other people, like if, if I as a marginalized person, I’m not the point where I can say to you, Tony, I either forgive you or love you or see you.

I can allow other people to get curious about you. I can allow other people to love you. I can allow other people to get to, to extend compassion to you. I don’t have to get stuck in that cycle of hate, but when I think about how we, the systems we’ve created and our systems reflect our level of consciousness, our systems are about separation, alienation, punishment.

And in the [00:33:00] book you talk about how nobody goes out to become Hitler, right? Like, nobody goes out, Hey, I’m gonna be Hitler. I’m gonna be this hateful person. and so it’s interesting to me what, what that I had read in your book, something that I had reflected on myself. And so I found it like, oh, wow, somebody else believes this, that people blame Hitler.

But there was a whole bunch of people that followed him, and the treaty of Versailles was actually very harsh on Germany. And so it, it really suppressed people. And this is not a justification, but out of that suppression, people desired. Something else people desire to be, to be given to, to. And so it sets up the environment where people like Hitler could come and, and say, I’m going to, like you said, with the, with the movement, I, I can give you, you know, we, we gotta get ours.

You know, we gotta stop being oppressed. And so these systems aren’t built, that [00:34:00] we’ve created, aren’t built on radical compassion aren’t built on, on unity. They’re built on separation. why do you think that is? Like, why do you think that we are kind of have created these systems, but I mean, we tend to blame individuals, but don’t see kind of the larger context?

Tony: No, and, and, and, you know, there’s, there’s, you know, politicians of the current age mm-hmm. that, people point to and, and, you know, say it’s their fault, but really their symptom. Yeah. You know, they’re a symptom of, of something else. And I think under stress, we regress. Right? And, and I, I’ve, I’ve said to people, you know, multiculturalism and intolerance works until you have to compete with your neighbor for a crust of bread in the street.

And then all bets, all bets are off. We devolve into tribalism. And, and below the tribe is the family or the, you know, the, the community and, and ultimately down to the, down to the [00:35:00] individual. And I think, you know, in a, in a more global perspective, there’s the ebb and flow, the rhythm of polarity back and forth where we go from one mm-hmm.

to the other. And, and I, I’m, I mean, I’m hopeful mm-hmm. , right? As much as, you know, there’s chaos happening in the world, I think, I think the old order is dying. Mm-hmm. agreed. You know where winter is? Here? . Yeah. . and agreed. And I’m, I’m looking forward to getting, you know, it’s like being in the middle of January, you know, we got another month or two of cold weather and, and then it’s spring and, and, and, and green, green shoots.

But it, winter is never fun. . Yeah. Except

Gissele: honestly, in, in, in, in the book you talked about how kind of that, that pendulum that happens right between like the, the extremism and how censorship doesn’t really work because it’s silencing. [00:36:00] So what, whereas compassion allows us to lean in censorship prevents us from, from really listening to each other.

How do you think censorship really feeds the kind of movements, like the, you know, like white supremacy?

Tony: Well, if you, if you’ve got. these movements that are, you know, exploiting a grievance narrative mm-hmm. further alienating and further disenfranchising those people, makes those groups more, more attractive.

And, and, and suppression simply, simply doesn’t, doesn’t work. It makes things more extreme. If I can’t speak through words then maybe I’ll have to speak through violence. It, I, you know, the, the steam has to escape somehow. Yeah. . Yeah. And I think it’s naive to think that, that, suppression of speech, and I just wanna be clear here, there’s a difference between.

You know, speech that is promoting violence, which is promoting illegal acts, [00:37:00] which is already illegal. Mm-hmm. and harassment. Cause I often see the two, conflated that we need to limit ideas over here because people over here are being threatened and harassed. I, I think that we need to separate those two and I don’t think censorship works.

And I think I agree. We, we go down a slippery slope and I, and I’m actually shocked at how quick it’s moved from, hateful speech. to now this nebulous disformation misinformation and the number of topics that you can get, you know, banned on social media for, for speaking about is rapidly expanding.

Yeah. And I think that’s a, that’s a very dangerous and a totalitarian precedent.

Gissele: Mm-hmm. agreed. I think, you know what, we resist persists, right? And the more we resist it, it doesn’t go away, it just goes covert. Right? And so what we’re missing is an opportunity to really lean in and, and have conversations with [00:38:00] one another about why.

People Exactly. Why, why people believe what they believe. And so it really is a missed opportunity. to get better at listening and, and listening means not, not just waiting for my turn to speak .

That’s right. Not so, not not thinking about my counter-argument so that I can prove that you are right or wrong.

So it’s listening with, like, compassionate listening.

Tony: We listen to people to, to understand, you know, I think the society conflates listening with validation. Yeah. I can listen to someone and understand someone. I don’t have to agree with them. You know, their, their grievance is real to them. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s real, it’s real to me.

And I think that understanding is, is the first step. It’s the first foundation in healing. If we want to heal and repair the polarization in society, we have to be prepared to listen to people we don’t agree with and try and understand, where it is that they’re, that they’re coming from. Keeping more judgment or calling them [00:39:00] names is not gonna change, is not gonna change anything.

So there’s. I talk a lot about, these days, about the three Cs. Mm-hmm. , and that that’s, you know, I think as, as human beings in the society, we have to practice more of the three Cs. Three Cs are, compassion. First of all, courage. You know, I spoke about that. You know, we, we can’t do this from inside our, our comfort zone and curiosity.

We have to be curious about why we have to be curious about people and, and move beyond the, the, the, the tabloid headline label that we, the one dimensional labels that we, that we throw on people and understand the, the, the story. If we want to change them, we don’t do it by telling them something different.

We do it by listening.

Gissele: Yeah. And we, you know, it’s so interesting that we make these caricatures of people. Everybody is one-dimensional, except ourselves. Of course. We’re , we are more than that. I wanted to, talk a little bit about, vulnerability [00:40:00] in men in particular and about true intimacy. how might a fear of being vulnerable lead to a life of hate?

Tony: That’s a, that’s a great question, and I’m a huge fan of, Brene Brown. Mm-hmm. And, and, and really when we, talk about, you know, practices that we’ve learned, at, at life after hate and working with people coming from these spaces, it’s, you know, when we listen to someone, Air their grievance. and we give them a safe space to do so.

We give them the safe space in which to be vulnerable. that’s very transformative in and of it of itself. And once they realize it’s a safe space, that they, they start to reveal themselves mm-hmm. . And then we can, we can work with that. but in the absence of that safe space, everything is, is nailed down and, and, and, and shut.

And in that absence of safe [00:41:00] space, there, there is no place for the heart. And then we find ourselves back in that space of the head. The ego driving the bus and the ego is, without the heart as a guidance system easily, so easily gets itself, gets itself lost. And, and so many of these movements are predominantly male.

Yeah. And, and, and there’s so much confusion about what healthy masculinity, looks like. You know, nobody really defines healthy masculinity. There’s, there’s only toxic masculinity, and nobody, nobody provides an opportunity to understand what, you know, what, what’s behind the divine masculine?

What are the principles? What are the features of the divine masculine? How can we, how can young men embody the divine masculine? How can the divine masculine embrace the divine feminine within, within a person? There’s, there’s a whole world that needs to be explored and understood and brought into being that gets completely [00:42:00] ignored when all we look at is everything through the lens of toxic masculinity.

Even some aspects of healthy masculinity are labeled toxic masculinity, because they’re not divine feminine. You know, there’s mm-hmm. , it’s a, there’s a, a, a distortion, and I think. that’s an important thing, which needs to be unlocked. if we’re going to usher young men into embracing a healthy identity in masculinity, and at the same time, embrace that divine feminine, so that the, the two are in balance and, you know, we should be able to go back and back and forth with them and, and, that’s what I’ve learned in Tantra anyways.

Gissele: Yeah, . Yeah. And since you mentioned the divine feminine and masculine, obviously there’s a spiritual component. has spirituality been a key in your

Tony: healing? Absolutely. I, I don’t think that you can see the world through the lens of connection. I mean without it, it being spiritual and, and [00:43:00] really spirituality and connection or interchangeable words.

For me, I, I was coaching, a women’s adult, women’s soccer team. Mm-hmm. , and we talked about the four quadrants of we wanted to have, mental health, physical health, emotional health and connection. What we really wanted to say was spirituality. Yeah. But that, that, you know, there’s so many trip wires and triggers involved with that word.

So we replaced it with the word connection and everybody was fine with it. Yeah.

Gissele: Yeah. It’s funny how people get triggered because they think religion, whereas spirituality is not

Tony: religion. No. And in fact, often religion is anti spiritual. Like that it’s, it’s, it’s the opposite. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. but that, that spiritual component and, and understanding that we’re all connected, you know, that those are all deep, deep spiritual, beliefs.

And I think my. the, at the beginning of my journey, one of the most profound things I [00:44:00] did, and I didn’t really understand what I was getting myself into , but my introduction to meditation was a 10 day Vipassana. Yeah. And that was a really profound experience that really, you know, opened the door. And, I’ve been a, a spiritual seeker and, and a seeker of crazy wisdom traditions and, and, and such ever, ever since to develop,perspective of the nature of who I am and, the nature of the universe and the nature of creation and, and where we all fit in it, and how we can realize our, our highest truest self.

Yeah. Yep.

Gissele: Yeah, spirituality has definitely been, something that has really helped me heal in my journey. it’s interesting from this, from my perspective in the spiritual perspective, the soul cannot be broken. So, so it really kind of has helped me shift from that belief [00:45:00] in good and bad, right or wrong.

because if I cannot be broken, other people cannot be broken either. And so it helps me move away from that victim perspective and to see myself as a victim and therefore to see you as an oppressor. the other thing that it helps me do is it, it also helps me see the divinity in you. So if I’m part of the, of this universal source universe, juice , then so are you.

Gissele: But we just forget. And so there’s only behavior that is in alignment or out of alignment. . And so I go back to as children, our, our very essence is love and compassion. We just wanna be loved and to love. And so, but we create all of these barriers. And so going back to our true essence is really the return to that love and compassion.

and so I find that that helps me forget, like, it has helped me forgive, people that I, I felt needed to forgive and myself when I was really hurtful.

Tony: Yeah. No, that’s, that’s a, that’s a great point. And you know, I’ve had people say to me, [00:46:00] I’m not buying it. You know, people never change, you know, I’m saying, you know, I agree with you.

And they go, what? Yeah, yeah. I said, you’re right. People, people never change. I said, you. The who I am is Little Tony, who I was as a neo-Nazi, couldn’t have been more, diametrically opposed, the opposite the, the, the pure polarity of, of my core essence. It wasn’t who I was, you know, and, little Tony was always that core essence was always there.

And, and, and you’re right, it never changed. Mm-hmm. And that often confuses . Yeah.

Gissele: So that’s why from the perspective, be becoming more loving and compassionate is about unlearning. It’s about unlearning all of those beliefs, those things that, those identities that have solidified based on our continuous habits.

And that’s what I loved about your book. You’re like, I made choices and every choice that I made solidified a thought and believe in. And then before I knew it, I had this identity, which was so enmeshed within white [00:47:00] supremacy. And so to challenge the, the ideology was to challenge the essence of who I was or who I thought I was.

and so you kind of had to unlearn everything and really kind of go back to yourself, which must have been challenging, right? Like it’s, it’s easy, it’s easy for us to have this conversation, but you’ve lived it, right?

Tony: It’s, it’s challenging, but so rewarding at the same time. Right. And, and when my life was in direct opposition to who Tony Little Tony was.

I couldn’t have been less in flow. I, yeah. You know, everything was difficult. Everything was a challenge. And as I’ve gone to live my life more in integrity with who little Tony is, and I’m not saying I’m perfect and I’m not there yet. This Yeah. journey takes, takes to the lifetime. Yeah. But the more I get an integrity, the more I find myself living in flow and the easier.

life becomes, and even though, you know, we have to look at uncomfortable parts of ourselves and acknowledge uncomfortable things about [00:48:00] ourselves as we peel back layers of the onion. that short-term pain versus the, what I know is the long-term gain of doing that and the fear of doing it is, is purely psychological in the mind anyways.

Tony: You know, it’s, oh, if you open that door, it’s gonna, you’re gonna burst into flames. Like you open the door and it’s like, no, that didn’t happen. And . Yeah.

Gissele: Yeah. And I think that’s what stops people. The fear is, feels real. It really feels real to go through. so thank you for mentioning Living in the Flow because I, I wanted to go back to something you had mentioned before, which is the belief and lack, the belief in not enough, the belief in competition.

When we are in survival mode, it is really hard for us to be compassionate and loving for other people because we see each other as competition. But as we start to. Understand that, that those beliefs aren’t true. There’s so much opportunity, there’s so much potential, there’s so much abundance everywhere.

We can then shift from that survival strategy to start to say, [00:49:00] Hey, Tony’s not a threat to me because my abundance is mine and there’s so much abundance in this world. This is unlimited possibilities. Then we can think open up to the potential. So from my perspective, living our dreams really is a key part of creating a better world for everyone.

More loving and compassionate world. What are your thoughts? A

Tony: absolutely, and, and you know, the beautiful thing about being, being in flow and living that life, is we get to inspire others. Yeah. You know, people are like, what’s your secret? Or, you know, like, you know mm-hmm. people that knew me then, or even, you know, know me now, they can’t, they can’t even imagine me as that other person.

Yeah.

Gissele: You know, because you’re not. , you’re actually not the same identity wise. You have shifted. Right. And so yeah. It’s, so to that, those memories must feel like a bit of a dream, right. At times.

Tony: Yeah. No, there, there’s, there’s certainly a, a sort of an ethereal distance mm-hmm. to them. And, and, [00:50:00] you know, I’ve almost, I almost can’t believe that I did those things.

Yeah. But, but, you know, I understand. And you know, there was something I just wanted to talk about earlier is that, that within compassion, we can hold the, the space of perpetrator and victim, you know, it, it, yes. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a, a duality, but mm-hmm. within compassion, those two things can be held and healed.

Gissele: Yeah. And our perspective on the definition of compassion is actually allowing all things to be. , which ca which people say, oh, well then you’re allowing all of these negatives to be it. It’s not, it’s about the non-resistance in the curiosity and then making a choice. I’m choosing not to, so I understand that these exist.

The, the victim, the perpetrator, who am I gonna choose to be every day? Like, who am I gonna choose? And knowing that it’s a purposeful choice and that I sometimes may falter, but I can still choose again. And so that’s where the [00:51:00] non-resistance is really key because all of these anti programs, anti-drug, anti-racism, anti, all you’re doing is feeding that same perspective.

We’re feeding what we don’t wanna create. And so I think what your book invites us to do is to reimagine to, to, to really think about, okay, what do we wanna create and how do we heal ourselves in order to get there?

Tony: Yeah. Cause a lot, a lot of my life was, you know, where, you know, where we end up as human beings, you know, for, you know, forget the specifics of my life.

Where we end up as human beings, you know, at, at any given point is it’s the totality of the choices we made. And many of those choices are unconscious mm-hmm. until we decide to, or sometimes the, the, the decision is made for us to, to awaken to that fact. Yeah. And choose to live life from intentionality.

Mm-hmm. choose to look at every decision. you know, as, as I talk about in the book, we, in life, you know, [00:52:00] we, we come at, at, at living from one of two places, you know, fear or love. And we get to choose, which, we get to choose expansion over current contraction. We get to choose connection over disconnection.

Mm-hmm. . And, and with those choices, we can inspire others. , and I think it’s who we choose to be in every moment of every day. Mm-hmm. , that is the power that is going to transform society. It’s not some government body or some politician on a white horse that’s gonna save the day. It’s, it’s who we choose to be in every moment of every day and, and how we inspire others to make conscious choices.

To choose connection and to choose love over fear. And I think it’s, it’s it’s millions of little tiny choices. And so we have to look at all of the choices we’re making and, and conduct ourselves with the, that proper intention behind it.

Gissele: Yeah. Oh wow. So powerful. And I think really that is kind [00:53:00] of the purpose of this podcast for people to realize that it’s, it’s the, everything that every choice that they make is not meaningless. It’s not. cuz people want other people to change and systems to change. Oh, once the system changes, things will get fixed.

But they’re, they’re taking themselves outta the equation when, if they’re experiencing, they’re aligned with it. Right? And so they, they’re consciously contributing to those systems. So that kind of transformation really begins at home with ourselves. And so I think it’s really an invitation.

Tony: Absolutely.

It starts with us. Yeah. It starts with us. And, and I’ve recently became a founding partner of an organization in the United States, called, starts With Us, starts with us that, looks to. Beyond the polarity that’s, that’s happening in society and to, be more compassionate and less judgmental and learn to have dialogue with people we, we disagree with.

it’s worth, it’s worth checking up, you know. There is, there is a, there is something sane out there in the middle . [00:54:00]

Gissele: Yeah, definitely. And you know, in, in talking about, before we conclude, talking about compassionate conversations, it’s, it doesn’t mean that the purpose is for us to change each other.

It really is, like you said, understanding. It’s about mutual understanding

Tony: and, and finding, you know, what we have in, in common with each other. We, we have things we can connect. Yeah. You know, there, there are , you know, it’s, it’s once every, you know, four years we’re in the voting booth and we have this disagreement.

but there’s so much more going on in between those times that we have to connect on, whether it’s, you know, sports or art or culture or the food or what our kids do, or, you know, what we want for our kids. You know, those, those things don’t, don’t change. And, and you know, when I was coaching the, the women’s soccer, one of the things we did at the beginning of every season is we paired new people with, [00:55:00] with the veterans and they had to go out and find out, you know, what are your three, three biggest fears of the other person they had to meet in person.

Tony: Oh, what are your dreams? That kind of thing. And they had to come back and, and, and, you know, find three things that you, that, that you had in common. And, you know, when they had these conversations, they came back and they said, you know, well, you know, I couldn’t believe it. You know, we were in the same piano class when we were seven and mm-hmm.

I didn’t even like this, this, all of a sudden when we, we had these curiosity questions to engage with stranger. Hmm. all of a sudden, you know, it’s like six degrees of separation. It’s the, there’s even less degrees of connection between, between every, every person. And, and once, once the people on the team had uncovered those connections, the team bonded way faster.

Mm-hmm. , right. And, and the, and the, and the group, you know, coalesced and felt more connected. And that translated into like, we, we used to call it like hacking the, the team . Cause [00:56:00] they would perform better on the field and they would pass. Yeah. We’d be more willing to pass. And, and the, the eagles were gone and we didn’t, you know, have any cattiness.

And it, it was really remarkable. what can be done with, with little, little exercises just like that in, in.

Gissele: Yeah. There’s more that unites us than divides us. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Latina relating to white male from the uk. Yeah. so, I, I’m gonna, I’m starting this kind of thing where I’m asking all of my, guests, you know, from my perspective, you know, whatever this universe source God is, it’s all love and it’s unconditional love.

And so I’m asking all of my guests what they think, what’s their definition or what they think unconditional love is.

That’s,

Tony: that’s a great, that’s a great question. And it’s that love is, is, it’s, it’s at a connection [00:57:00] level. You know, it’s, I’ve even experienced it at a vibration level. Mm-hmm. me. It’s, you know, at an emotional level. but it, happens at a level that’s below for me. you know, the things that we see that, that are, that are different, you know, and it’s, it’s, you know, it’s like namaste.

The God in me sees the, sees the God in you, and regardless of where life has taken you in the, and, and the choice is made, that divinity is, is always there. And, and, you know, and, and I can, I can connect, with that, you know, doesn’t mean I love everything you do . Yeah. Or, or everything you say. but I love and respect and connect to the divinity that is within every human being.

Mm-hmm. .

Gissele: Beautifully said. last question. Where can people find you? Tell us about your organization, your website, and about the book or anything you wanna share? Sure.

Tony: The, the book is The Cure for Hate, A former White supremacist journey from [00:58:00] violent Extremism to Radical Compassion. you can get it on most book sites, the Cure for hate.com.

You can reach me or Tony at the cure for hate.com. If, if you want to email me, there’s a film I’m featured in, which is on Amazon Prime called Healing From Hate. And, we’ve got a film just about to be being submitted to festivals this week. So next year it’ll be in festivals. the Cure for Hate, former white supremacist confronts the legacy of the Holocaust.

So for that chapter where I go to Auschwitz and, and. Wow. And, and atonement and, and that, that I spent 15 hours with two day, over two days with a, with a guide that was all documented. So we have a documentary about that whole trip, and the journey of, of Atonement. Oh, because what started with, you know, and, and you kind of caught onto it earlier too, I started with trying to heal myself.

Then once I healed myself to a part, I was like, well, I can heal people that were wounded like me. And that led to the start of co-founding Life After Hate [00:59:00] and, and helping those people. And now, I’ve grown my bucket where I can go back and heal the communities that I’ve, that I’ve once harmed. And that is really where my work is at now, is going back and, undoing the damage that I’ve done.

Mm.

Gissele: Beautiful. Beautiful. And thank you very much Tony for being on this podcast. This was an amazing conversation. Please go out and get the Cure for Hate. It is an amazing, amazing book. And please join us for another episode of The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gisele.

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Transcript [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gisele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world.

Gissele: Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. On today’s podcast, we’ll be talking about Becoming Unlimited with Greta Pontarelli, she has coached thousands of people in businesses worldwide. She’s been a keynote speaker and featured on numerous television shows in magazines, most notably, inside Edition, A O L Cs, Steve Harvey l the New York Post, Anne Marie Claire.

She has mentored celebrities, world-class athletes, and ordinary people with extraordinary dreams and help them kickstart their mojo to bring their dreams to life. In 2012, she was invited to compete in American Ninja Warrior, which is a great show by the way, and was shocked to learn that she was [00:01:00] the oldest person to ever attempt the course.

She thought, where’s everyone else? And in that moment she had an epiphany to use her art form to motivate others to become the very best they can become. She is a 12 time world pole art master champion and from conquering Mount Everest to becoming part of Chuck Norris’s stunt team, greater maxi, seemingly impossible scene possible.

Please join me in welcoming Greta Pontarelli. Hi Greta.

Greta: Hi. Thank you so much. I’m honored to be here and I want to in some way inspire people to let them know that they could become the very best they can become. Cuz I see so many people stop short of the finish line. Yeah. So many people give up and the possibilities within all of us is it’s miraculous.

Yeah. So I hope it’s some way that I can be a, a catalyst to help them know that [00:02:00] age or any limitation should not keep them from. Passionately pursuing their dreams.

Gissele: Yeah. Thank you so much for mentioning that. Cause that’s exactly why I wanted to have this conversation with you. we were introduced to our mutual friend called Julia at another conference.

And when I heard your story and saw you perform, I thought to myself, wow, it’s so amazing how we limit ourselves, with our own mind and our own limited thinking. and so I was wondering if you can begin by telling the audience a little bit about your childhood and maybe some of the messaging you that you may have received that may have helped you on this journey.

Greta: Well, it might, my mother always taught us in life to not ask for a lighter load to develop stronger, should. So she always said, your challenges can become your strengths if you allow them to be your thrusting walk instead of debilitating you. So that’s something that has always stuck with me. So no matter what I did, if [00:03:00] something didn’t go out right, I go, okay, there’s a lesson here.

There’s something to learn here that is going to develop muscles that I didn’t know I had. So I carried that with me my whole life. I was the oldest of six, so I had a lot of responsibility. And I think learning to work hard learning, if the road turns left, sometimes you turn left. In other words, things don’t always go the way you plan, but you always say, okay, what are the other possibilities?

And you just keep going. And it’s been, it’s been a great blessing to have so many wonderful mentors around me in my life. I just, I feel extremely humbled and grateful because if I could give back even a piece of what they have given to me, my heart will be full .

Gissele: Thank you. you mentioned talking about, you know, the reframe your mom used when facing challenges, cuz I think that’s one of the things that limits people [00:04:00] is that fear is, is that it’s the not wanting to face those fears and face those challenges.

can you think of a time when it was challenging for you in maybe what helped you kind of overcome?

Greta: Well, one thing is I’ve had both of my hips replaced. Mm. because I did gymnastics when I was younger and I competed on hard floor . There were no spring floors back then. And so when I started hitting my sixties, I started losing my flexibility, my splits, and I started getting pain.

And I think, I thought, okay, what can my body do? Mm-hmm. . And I started building in my strengths and saying, okay, I, this, this is not the way I was 20 years ago. I just kept losing flexibility. So I developed other things and eventually I got to the point where I had to have both of them, fixed because I had a lot of pain nights.

So I went forward, but I still, I probably won five world championships while my hips were [00:05:00] completely compromised. As a matter of fact, when I was at the airport, like traveling to these world championships, I had to be taken in a wheelchair. And they had to take me back in a wheelchair and then I would go there and win because I would find, okay, I can’t show that, but there’s something else I could do.

And I would build on that. I think that’s what we need to do. We need to look at possibilities and if you look at possibilities, there’s always something out there that you know, will manifest your dreams. I was you. It sometimes when that happens, it actually becomes a strength because in my case, it made me become stronger and develop more strength moves and other moves that, that were really not being done at my age.

And so when I finally got them done, then I got my flexibility back and it was, you know, it was a home run for me because now I had the strength and the flexibility. So I just feel so grateful that I just kept going because most people would say, okay, I can’t keep going. You know, [00:06:00] my body is compromised.

But sometimes that’s the time to really look deep inside and say, There’s something else I’m supposed to do. I’m supposed to keep going, but the room turns left and so you turn left.

Gissele: Yeah. Oh, that’s so beautifully said. And I think that, like, as you mentioned, I think that really is the key to facing success rather than failure, is really turning those moments when we have probably the greatest fear and the, and we see the greatest challenge that you were able in those moments to shift your perspective and say, okay, so if I can’t do that, then maybe I can do this and be still be able to win.

I mean, that’s extraordinary to be able to be, I mean, you win in a wheelchair, , you did, you perform something, won a world champion and they’re back in the wheelchair, . I mean, there’s gotta be, like, in those moments, what do you say to yourself? You just say to yourself, just keep going or,

Greta: yes. In those moments, you just, you just keep going.

You don’t allow that to hold you back. You just do, and then you just have to say, okay, [00:07:00] there’s, I’ve, I’ve well prepared, I’ve built on my strengths and. You open doorways where you thought there were walls, you just don’t stop. You can’t let yourself stop and say, okay, this isn’t going to work for me. I’m not gonna be able to compete.

I’m not gonna be able to train because I have these challenges. I just kept working. I was fortunate enough that I was in a art forum that I could do that. If I was a runner, that would be a different story. I might not have been able to do that, and then I, I probably would’ve transitioned into another sport or something else at that point.

But mine, I just had to transition into different moves and be creative and work on choreography and, and actually all my choreography is about transformation. All of it. So it’s about the Phoenix rising out of the ashes. So it gave me, it gave me an impetus to share that story because that’s, I was living that story.

Mm-hmm. , I was living that story where I felt like I was, like, I was being [00:08:00] burned and I was. Losing something that really meant a lot to me. Mm-hmm. to be able to do my art form and then to realize that I rose out of the ashes with, you know, more for than I had before that I found I was able to be more authentic.

There was, you know, there was more conviction in what I was doing because I lived it. Mm-hmm. , you know, I lived that and it was something that was, you know, a part of my soul and my beings. So, I think you just have to dig deep and share your story. Everybody has a story. Mm-hmm. , and, I love the journey.

I mean, the stage to me is just a platform. Mm-hmm. , it’s, it’s really, not about the medals. I mean, the medals gave me visibility on a world stage, which was wonderful in some way. I can inspire other people, but it, it really was about sharing that story. It was, it’s the journey. It’s not the end point. [00:09:00] So, that gives me great fulfillment, inside.

Mm-hmm. ,

Gissele: I love what you said, because as you were thinking about, like, you know, you said had running been, had I been a runner, maybe it would’ve been a different story, but then the subsequent sentence you said was, well, I would’ve just would’ve shifted to something. Yeah. I would’ve shifted to, it wasn’t like it’s over, it’s done.

Right. Right. It’s like, okay, how do I maneuver? There’s a flexibility there and ability to see, I’m still gonna hold onto the vision. Yes. It just, maybe I’m willing to to flex the vision

Greta: e Exactly. Yeah. Because it’s, it’s unlimited.

Gissele: Yeah. And I, and I think so, the other thing that I think that I, have observed about you and your work is, is really the, the joy of the journey, which so often we don’t really.

Allow ourselves to savor. Like, so rather than, because you’ve been able to shift the, okay, ev, if every challenge is an opportunity and a gift, right? It does open you up to, to [00:10:00] savoring the experiences. Whereas often we are so bent on getting to the destination that so, so what is it about that, that’s, do, do you find that enjoying the journey helps you get to the destination or, or enjoy it more?

Maybe

Greta: It does. It does. Because in the journey, I celebrate every little victory. I mean, there’s sometimes you try things and you struggle for a while, and then finally some little thing about it works out. And that gives me great joy. So that to me is the journey. I mean, the endpoint is a, is a performance on a world stage that lasts four minutes.

It can’t, it can’t be about that. It really can’t be about that. I have to love the process and I have to say, how can I bring my character to life? You know, and how can I need more of my heart on the stage? And, and when I tear that it, you develop a, a kind of a, an elixir inside of you. You know, the endorphins, they [00:11:00] talk about the oxytocin, whatever.

It’s that, that, that feel good feelings that as you work out and train, it’s exhilarating and it really feeds your heart and your soul because it’s not just working out that is allowing these to, to manifest. You’re actually. Working on the creative plane and it’s kind of like sometimes you feel like it’s a little bit of an alchemy because you are taking something that is very raw and trying to turn it into gold and trying to turn it into something that is, that is magical in a way that touches the heart of the audience.

That in some way they take something home with them that changes their life in some way. And that’s, and that’s the goal. And it’s something that I always work on and I am very in touch with people send me these emails and say, because of you, you have changed my life because of you. I saw you do this.

And I thought, wow, I had given up at age 30 or 40, and then I see you do this and you have just mantled all [00:12:00] of my excuses. So that’s the journey part, you know, seeing the people that write to me, and by the way, I love people to write, to connect with me. my social media, I’m not. Super active on it, but every time somebody writes to me, I do try to respond and I do try to keep my foot in the door there.

I just don’t have a lot of time to post every day. But, I really, would love people if they want to reach out to reach out to me on Facebook. it’s really about people, you know, I love people and I, my mission is to, in some way, you know, in empower their lives in a way they weren’t empowered before and make them believe in themselves.

Cause people need, oh, they need so much inspiration and healing. I mean, as a, as a human race, we’ve gone through a lot the last few years. Mm-hmm. , there’ve been a lot of challenges and they can either strengthen us or debilitate us. And I, I choose. I choose to love and [00:13:00] to strengthen me and to allow me to keep going.

Gissele: Yeah. And that is so inspirational in, in a world where we’re taught or we align to, to beliefs where that things are negative. And to look at the, at the, at the negative or to be very fear-based, to, to focus on really on the joy and the journey in, in thinking Unlimited really is, inspirational. It really does help people because that’s all that people hear is, is it really that negative messaging?

What got you interested in that, that in pole dancing? well, I always think I, I always follow my passions, but what happened is both of my sisters who are younger than I am, came down with beginnings of osteopenia and it runs osteoporosis.

Greta: runs in my family. Yeah. And so I thought, I’m not gonna take drugs, so I’m going to find out what can I do to remineralize my bones, because if they have it I’m sure I do. [00:14:00] So, even though I was in good shape, I thought I was, I was not. I didn’t have a program that really gave me what I needed to strengthen my bones.

So I looked online, we say, lift weights or lift your body. And I found these beautiful artists on YouTube and it looked like Circus de Soleil, they were joining mm-hmm. acrobatics and spinning. And I just, watching them was just so magical and so beautiful. And the feeling of just almost like they were flying, you know, as you rotate around the pole, you get this kind euphoria and I thought, this is what I wanna do.

That’s how started it was in my head and about. It was fortuitous, but about two or three weeks later I got a card in the mail. Would you like a free poll lesson? Oh wow. It’s to me there. Yeah, I think, I think the teacher thought, oh, she’ll never be back. Cuz it [00:15:00] was not easy. Mm. It was not easy for me at first.

but it wasn’t until I thought, well, let me come back a few times a week. I’ll sign up for a month and see how it goes. And then things that were hard suddenly became easier.

Greta: And that’s what I talked about earlier. I celebrated those little victories and I thought, oh, I can do something that I couldn’t do last week. And very soon it became a positive addiction. I just, I loved it. I loved the, the artistry. The artistry was a big part of it. Not just joy moves or tricks, but being able to share an empowering story, that is what I started seeing in it.

Mm-hmm. And if when you share that story, you are bringing a character to life, you work on the costume. You work on, usually they have like an l e d screen or video in the background that frames it. You find music that brings it to life, and then you create the storyline and the character and the moves the way the character would do it.

So it’s, [00:16:00] it’s really a production and I really, I’ve loved all part of it because it just allowed me to be artistic in many ways that I wasn’t before. And it allowed myself to, to grow and to unveil gifts that I didn’t know I had. Hmm. Wow.

As you were talking, it occurred to me that, you know, one of the things you said was that you had to make a decision to keep showing up, right?

Gissele: Because in the beginning it wasn’t, yes, it wasn’t easy. But you had made that commitment, and I think that was one of the things you also had mentioned earlier, which is so many people quit before they get to the end. Why do you think that is?

I think it’s, I think it’s for a lot of people, it’s just human nature in a way that when they see a challenge that instead of wanting to move through it, it kind of debilitates them in a way.

I don’t know if it’s something that we’ve been programmed, I mean, [00:17:00] in life. I mean, a lot of people like to take the easy way. Mm-hmm. When you think about it, a lot of people, when you think about losing weight, how easy is it just to eat a little less and to exercise more, but they’ll go through surgery.

Greta: Mm-hmm. and I understand that some people don’t have the willpower, but inside of them, that willpower exists. And if they dug deep enough and found the right mentors and right catalyst, they could have completely done it on their own. So I think that that transforms into many different, this, this, it transforms you when you find that part within you that you thought you couldn’t do and you could do it.

And I really believe that there is so much within all of us. I mean, it’s, it’s unlimited universe. Mm-hmm. , and I think picking mentors like positive, empowering people like you, your website and surrounding yourself with people that are going after their dreams. If they did that, then they wouldn’t have [00:18:00] given up because the catalyst to move forward would be all around them.

But so often people want the easy way. They just want the easy way. It’s part of, I think it’s part of, it’s kinda cultural in a way. Cause when you think about what. Oh, ancestors did like coming across in a wagon right. Across How many people could do that today? They wouldn’t even know I, right. Not too many people going on those wagons.

what you take, what do you take? We’re

Gissele: farming. Farming is a, is kind of a dying art right? Yeah. At least in the North America. Lot of the farms.

Greta: I, I really believe, I really believe that the, if particularly starting with children, if your children don’t have struggles in life, you need to somehow create them.

For them. You need to give them challenges, right? Yeah. The more, when they overcome challenges, they develop an inner strength, an inner power. Mm-hmm. , and then whatever challenge comes before [00:19:00] them in life, they’ll know how to deal with it. Because you’ve had these little victories of being able to overcome things and that develops personal power.

And I really believe they need that. If they have the easy way, they’ll always be looking for the easy one. So I, I kinda embrace the challenges because I always feel like it’s moving me to grow in, in ways that I would’ve never grown without them. And I think it’s a, it’s a mindset. Mm-hmm. , and I just encourage everybody not to give up before you hit the finish line.

Not to give up, just say, okay, I can do this, I can do this. I’ve got the strength exists within me and I’m gonna do it. Mm-hmm. and empower themselves through positive affirmations. Mm-hmm. , and from people that, move that towards their dreams. Mm. That’s so great.

Gissele: It takes courage, right?

One of the things that I’ve seen, in the people that I’ve worked with and even in my own journey as well, is sometimes we’re like, okay, I [00:20:00] desire to create this. Where is it? Right. It’s sort of that, that immediate gratification, okay, where is it, okay, therefore it not showing up means it’s not there or it’s not happening.

And so how do we kind of ignore or not pay attention to that and really pay more attention to our vision in our dream?

So what helped you get, keep the journey, especially when you were going to win all of these awards? you know, all of these titles, which, you know, you said obviously is, is like the icing on the cake. But when you’re even gearing up for a competition, what helps you just stay motivated?

I think it’s because I really, in my heart, my mission is I really want to inspire people.

Greta: Mm. In way, in some small way. So I realize if I, if, if I don’t show up, let’s say I said, well, I have an injury, which I’ve competed with injuries. I’m just gonna pass on this one. It’s not as powerful as if I say I have an [00:21:00] injury, but I’m gonna do what I can do and I’m gonna move through this and I’m gonna, I’m going to do well anyhow, because that’ll inspire other people.

So I, I don’t wanna let myself down or other people down. Mm-hmm. So I wanna show them they can keep going. And I think, I think one of the championships that I won, that I was most proud of, you know, in Italy and Florence Italy, was I had my second hip done and the provisions were removed the beginning of December.

And it was, it was the middle of February. Oh, wow. And I went into that championship, Definitely had some challenges, but not only did I win, I got the highest score that I’ve ever gotten. And I think that part of it was because it wa, I mean, it wasn’t just about the tricks. I was so into this, and this was one where I was a tree, that it came to life in a forest and all of a sudden was hit by a forest fire.

And [00:22:00] so I, I was like down, crawling in the ashes and all of a sudden I, I, you know, go through my routine and I feel, I, I don’t wanna give up, but I’m burnt. I’m ashes, I, I want my life back. And all of a sudden a sprout begins to grow. Mm-hmm. And I say, ah, that’s, you need a forest fire for forest sprouts to go.

So every time things don’t go right. I remember that. And so I was so into that, you know, I believed that I. Poured so much of my heart and soul in it, I think that it really connected. Mm-hmm. with the audience. So I believe that you, you have to find that, you have to really find that in, when you, when you practice, when you’re working on it, you are enjoying the moment.

You’re definitely in the eternal now. You’re here right now, and you just enjoy the moment. You feel the, the endorphins. You feel the passion for sharing this story in this moment, that’s what moves me. You gotta find [00:23:00] the archetypes. I work a lot with archetypes and finding the muse within, like, there’s archetypes to me.

I work a lot with Joseph Campbell, the Heroes Journey. Yeah. You know, I work a lot with, he’s one I really love. I love geology. Rumi, the poets, you know, that says the wound is the place that the light enters. So every time you find a wound or something doesn’t go right, you say, this is where the light enters.

you know, you open your heart to that light and it’s there and it arrives. You just have to keep visualizing that. That’s why I say surrounding yourself with, with all kind of positive catalyst is paramount. It’s paramount. And once you’ve done this enough, then that becomes part of your nature. Hmm. you be, it becomes part of your nature because you realize that no matter what happens, that the power exists within you to go after your dreams.

Mm-hmm. and make them happen.

Gissele: Mm-hmm. [00:24:00] That’s amazing. Did you find that you, when you were ready, your mentors came? Or did you go looking for them? Like, how is it that you actually get got to meet these different people that were helpful in your journey?

Greta: I believe, I believe I was, from the time I was very young, particularly in college, I was, there was a kind of part of me that was spiritually seeking.

What’s the purpose of life? What’s, why am I here? What’s my mission? And I found that when you open your heart to that, they say, when, when a student is ready, a teacher arrives. And so I started studying with many different teachers. And the more I saw how they enriched my life, I kept casting my net broader and went to Gen H and Scotland, the community that, that really inspired me because they had done some amazing things on the planet and different shamans and people that, that had really lived, [00:25:00] very.

Very spiritual lives. I mean, the stories that they tell, the things they have done, being in the Himalayas with rishi’s that were living in the snow and you know, with just a loin cloth, you think this is capable, this is what’s one of the, some of the possibilities within us. they are at a level that most of us can’t even conceive.

If, I can’t imagine being out in the snow with basically just something very small . Yeah. I don’t like being cold that much, but Yeah. But you start seeing that they have gone to a level, they have done things, and I have, you know, I’ve met people, they’ve been drawn to me and I’ve been drawn to them all over the planet, who, when I see the things that they have done, it’s just, I know, it’s, it’s incredible.

Like I met a lady. She goes to the North Pole in the wintertime in g Greenland. Uh,you know, when it’s, when most people wouldn’t wanna be there, , most people run away. She us on iceberg. I go, what if you fall into the Arctic? [00:26:00] She goes, oh, I jump in. And she said, I spent an hour in there. I said, an hour. I said, what’s it like?

She goes for seven minutes. I feel like I’m being boiling alive now. See, I couldn’t take that for seven minutes,

Gissele: but she doesn’t. Yeah. And that’s, that’s too many minutes. But she

Greta: said, you don’t die of cold, you die of fear. Because when you, when you, when there’s that much fear, you are, you can’t, your heart is beaten so fast you can’t catch your breath and you pass out and you go on and you drown.

Oh, wow. And I said her, I said, I think you’re a mutation. She goes, no, I’m just using a part of my brain that most people don’t. So you can apply that principle to many different things. I don’t know if that would be my thing, but I, I, that principle, that principle applies to many facets of my life. And, she, she moves me.

And when you look at her, there’s so much light in her eyes. Mm-hmm. And look, when [00:27:00] she looks at you, like she’s looking at the Aurora Borealis . Wow. You know, she says, I love icebergs. I love the purity of the snow. You know, she just, you, you can imagine, you know, obviously that’s a crystalline dimension. Yeah, yeah. Of course.

That I allow people like that, that I need to influence me. And I look for people, I look for people like this everywhere. That in some way, Can en enrich my life in a way that it wasn’t before I met them. So you have to be open, you have to surrender to learning and growing. Mm-hmm. , you know, and realize that this is an abundant universe.

Everything exists, rebound around us, and you start seeing the magnitude of what we can do. Wow. Yeah. It’s, you rekindle that magic within mm-hmm. .

Gissele: Yeah. And it’s, it’s so nice to be able to see or hear those stories about people that have overcome this [00:28:00] sort of like, limited thinking, because we kind of have a lots of limited thinking about within what we can or cannot do.

And did you f do you find, like, I find this more, it seems to be more and more constraining, right? Like it, we seem to be more and more, we can’t do this and we can’t do that. Or that’ll hurt us. This’ll hurt us, this’ll, and then, so, and we, we kind of box, box ourselves in little cages. and I feel this way about aging.

So let’s talk about aging, cuz that’s a huge thing, especially for you in terms of your experience with Ninja Warrior. what are your thoughts on how we manage aging right now and, and how, how we can maybe start

Greta: shifting that? I really do think age is just a number. I really do. And it’s not that I’m in denial, but yes, we do age, but I do believe that it’s, a lot of it is mental.

Yeah. It’s the way, the way you think. The way you feel. And then there’s not enough talk about wellness and [00:29:00] taking good care of ourself, eating right. And I mean, I know when I had physical therapy after I had my hips, He said, I can’t believe what you’re doing. He says, nobody comes in here and does this.

And I go, well, they see, they stop short of the finish line. They thought, okay, I’ve had my hips replaced. I’m old. And they walk in with their walker. And many of them probably would never need that, but they, it’s a mindset. So I believe, you do everything you can to create wellness in your body through exercise, through thinking positive thoughts through eating.

Right? I mean, diet is really important to me. I eat pretty much a paleo diet. I use organic as possible. I don’t eat junk food, and I eat what my body means. I, my body tells me when I’m done. So I’ve always been the same weight. I’ve always been the normal weight because I don’t like the feeling about reading.

I listen to my body. Mm-hmm. , you know, and so I, [00:30:00] I think that if people listen to their body more, I don’t care if something tastes good, if I, I don’t like that full feeling . So if I have that feeling afterwards, it’s not, it’s not fulfilling to me. And if people just have not been taught to listen, I’ve been so blessed.

I haven’t been, I mean, in the last 25 years, I have not gotten sick. I got food poisoning once, but , . But I mean, as far as being sick, I’m, I think maybe I have one cold when my traveling or something, but I’ve just been really blessed that I have, and I really believe a lot of it is just listening to your body when your body says, okay, I need a little more rest right now.

Or sometimes there’s food or your body’s telling you you need more water. You know, you can just listen it, we’ll tell you. And I think a lot of us have forgotten that. They just don’t tune into that and see what they need. It’s, I, I’ve been so grateful that I [00:31:00] haven’t had to take any kind of medication. I don’t have problems sleeping at night.

Mm-hmm. . and I try to do things that I think will really facilitate me to be wealthy in a W E l l t H y . Yeah. Like being well, right? Yeah. You know what they say, you’re not richuntil you have something that money can’t buy. Mm-hmm. and that is happiness, joy in your life and health. You can’t really buy this.

Gissele: Yeah. Peace of mind. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you, you said some, a number of really a key things. I just wanna talk about the, the part where I think intuitive eating is so important. I think that’s why, weight loss is so hard, right? Because I think people do what they think they should be doing rather than really listening, like you said, to their body about what feels good or so they, so they get very regimented, they follow certain things and it doesn’t align with their body.

And so it’s a really challenging thing to. To do, [00:32:00] and therefore they’re not successful. And so I think intuitive eating and listening to your body is, is a really

Greta: important, yes. And it’s, it’s challenging for a lot of people because we’re marketed too all the time for fast food and junk food and whatever.

And, it’s not that I’m austere. If I go to a birthday party and they have a cake or sugar, I might have one bite or two bites, but I’m not gonna eat the whole piece. Yeah. I’ll taste, that’s really good. And I like it. That’s all I need. So it’s not like I’m austere. But my, I know that I don’t want the whole piece cuz I don’t want that sugar rush and I know how I’ll feel afterwards.

Mm-hmm. . So I think it’s, it’s about that starting to look at, you know, put going to places where you can get like farmer’s markets or wherever you can get the best foods and just don’t have those things around you. Then when you do that, you cut down on sugar and the extra salt they put in everything.

When you taste something that has a lot, it’s either too sweet or too salty because you’ve learned to like the taste of natural foods. Mm-hmm. . [00:33:00]

Gissele: Yeah. That’s, that’s really, really good. the, the other part that I wanted to mention was I, you know, I, as you were talking, you know, I’ve been thinking a lot about my parents’ journey and I love my parents very much.

They’re, they’re wonderful people. When I talk to them though, it’s usually about them, them saying, How hard aging is, how difficult it is. Don’t get old. It sucks to get old. You know, people that live for doctor’s appointments and I’m like, that’s not living, that’s surviving. and so what helped you kind of get beyond that image of aging?

Cuz that’s the image that people project that over time things start to decline and you have to abide by the, so, so to some extent you’re almost like, okay, pe most people are going this way. I’m going that way. . What helped you make that choice for yourself

Greta: beginnings of I guess because I don’t buy into victimhood, I think it can be a victim or you can be victorious. Everything in life, so many people, it’s like, poor me, or I’ve been a victim, I had an abuse childhood, [00:34:00] or somebody did whatever. It’s, they carry that with them and we’ve all gone through stuff.

Yeah, we’ve all gone lost people that we love deep. We’ve all been hurt in ways and gone through things in our life. But there again, did that, did those challenges make us stronger? Did we grow from them or did we become a victim? So I don’t buy into victimhood, and I think victimhood ages you tremendously because it mitigates your ability to use your gifts because it pushes them under.

As soon as you say, I can’t do this, or you want somebody else to do something for you, you’re not developing the skills to do it for yourself. So I have been taught to be self-reliant, not to count on anybody, to do anything for me, and to find a way to do it for myself, whatever it is. I try to in any way that I can to, to a point of course.

But, so I think that’s part of it. I think that they become victims. I’m older, this is what happens. I. [00:35:00] I found that yes, I’ve gone through aches and pains and all that, mostly before I had my hips done. Sometimes I had trouble sleeping at night because, yeah, they would get cramped or I’d feel the pain, but then you do what you have to do and then you get back to normal again.

And if I had those challenges today, I would say, okay, I would research. What can I do? Do I need to, maybe there’s some minerals that I need. Mm-hmm. , maybe I’m not drinking enough water. Maybe I need to do some exercises or whatever the kind of. Allows this message to relax. So I would find, I would research and find what I could do to, to overcome that challenge.

So it would challenge me to say, okay, I’m gonna overcome this. I’m gonna make this happen. I’m not taking drugs to go to sleep, whatever it is. And that’s what I did back then. Now it did get to the point where it was pretty painful, then Yes. Then I said, okay, I’m ready. I’ve tried all the natural things for my hips.

I tried p r p autologous stem cell, transplants, which gave me some [00:36:00] time. Mm. But they’ve all said, this is a temporary fix. Yeah. You know, long term you’re gonna need this because we’re not at a point yet where we can develop the bone. You know, I mean, they’re working on it, they guess they have done in a test tube in a lab, but they don’t have the scaffolding.

There has to be an architecture within your body for it to take place, and, and you’re young, so you’ll see it in your lifetime. Wow. Okay. But, you know, I don’t, don’t know if I’ll see it in mine. Depends how long I live. But it’s, you know, around the corner from all those things. And, so to me, I think everything that I go through in my life, I always think that a challenge is there for a reason.

I really believe a challenge is there for a reason. I just, my brain thinks that way. I think you can rewire your brain. Yeah. I think you can, you can wire it in a way to maximize your success in life. Mm-hmm. , you know, I mean, things happen. If something, if something [00:37:00] happens, like I have let’s, I have a, a business appointment that, that I thought was really going to be lucrative in some way and it cancels and doesn’t move forward, I’ll think, oh, something better’s gonna happen.

Yeah. You know, I wasn’t supposed to waste my time there, so I’m gonna this. Yay. You know, I, you just, if you think that way, you’ll manifest it because it’s law of attraction. Mm-hmm. , you know, It’s an, it’s an abundant universe. You start attracting that. So if I, let’s say that I got on the phone and started calling and somebody that I connected with felt that enthusiasm there, there would be, there’d be a resonance there between us that would allow that to manifest.

Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So I, I can’t tell you how many I’ve been through challenges. I’ve been through a lot of challenges. You know, my husband almost died 20 some years ago. He had a very serious form of leukemia. Oh, no. And yeah, and he’s, he’s, he’s fine now, but it, he was in the hospital for six months and, I thought, okay, how am I gonna, I’ve got kids at [00:38:00] home and how am I gonna do this?

And I thought I’m going to, you know, mm-hmm. . And it was, it was a huge challenge, you know, and I had to run to the hospital, which was about 90 miles away. I was three or four times a week up to Los Angeles and take care of kids and business and all kinds of things. And yet, I know the universe doesn’t give you more than you can handle.

I know that somehow I could get through that. And it’s kind of like, you know, when you have a child, nobody likes to wake up in the middle of the night, really, you know, for a full call, . But when a baby cries in the middle of the light, there’s so much love for that baby, you don’t mind it. Mm-hmm. , you really don’t, you say, oh, it needs me, this child needs me.

And there’s so much joy that, you know, and I kind of say that kind of transforms to a lot of areas of my life. So for people that have had children, they can relate to that. If you haven’t, there’s, you can develop empathy to somebody that has, you can still, you don’t have to go through everything. You can do it vicariously and still learn [00:39:00] from it and grow from it.

Gissele: Yeah. It really is about like the mindset, right? You, you were mentioning before about that victim consciousness, and I don’t think we realize how much power we give to these other things. We give power to those thoughts that aging has to look a specific way. We give power to the thoughts that we are limited, that we are smaller than we think we are, right?

and so it, it takes, it takes vision and takes courage and it takes determination to hold onto that vision regardless of what’s happening out there.

Greta: I know you really, you have to, you can’t let in our lives, you know, there’s a lot of tumultuous things going on in the world, but you, you wanna know about it, you wanna be aware, but you can’t let it live rent free in your head.

Mm-hmm. , you can’t let it get you down. You say, okay, so I’m gonna do the, you start with yourself. I’m gonna do the best that I can, and you. [00:40:00] Try to do it one by one with people. I think the more that we share, love, compassion, and peace in our lives with other people, it starts to grow. Mm-hmm. , you know, and help other people go through their challenges.

So I just, I feel that Yeah. You know, people are paramount to me. Yeah. I mean, people have enriched my life so much. They, they really have. And I think, I believe that that is a big part of what just keeps me going. Mm-hmm. is, I, I want, I want to become the best I can become so I can be a good model for those people, like you said, that, that are younger to kind of given up on their dreams or give it up, you know, health-wise on things.

But I hear so many miraculous stories of people that just have overcome things and it just touches my heart and mm-hmm. lets me know that I can. Continue on my journey and overcome my obstacles because I look at them and they have [00:41:00] catapulting me to another level where I see the whole my life through a different lens.

Mm-hmm. , there you go. It’s like one of those epi aha moments you see, see them do something you thought that wasn’t possible and they’re doing it. And, I embrace that. I embrace that it enriches my life. Mm-hmm. .

Gissele: Yeah. It’s so inspirational. Like you are, like in your, your life. It’s an inspiration to other people as well.

And so, what a gift to be able to love people.

Greta: Sorry. Good. It just seems normal to me because people deserve so much love. Right? Yeah. It’s, so to me it just, it, it seems normal and in every moment, you know, trying to take challenges we go through in life. Like I said something to somebody today actually, I said, you know, nothing offends me.

Because, you know, people get so offended by things, and that’s the impact that’s victimhood. And I go nothing against me. If somebody said something that offended me, that was unkind to me, I would, instead of me being angry [00:42:00] about that, I’d say, oh, it speaks volumes about what they’re going through. They’re probably really hurting inside.

They, they my love, they need my compassion. I’d wanna give them a big hug or embrace them. Because to me, that’s how the, that’s how the world changes. That’s how it changes. It has to be loving compassion. Yeah. It really has to be like the religion of kindness. It really has to be them. So how can words possibly offending if you, if you, if you know who you are, you can’t be, you can’t be offended when you are in your heart center, which the heart is light, how can you offend light?

Right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. How can you offend the sun? Cause so to me, the heart center, which is, you know, this is the center of our universe, like the sun’s, the center of the universe. It can’t be offended. And so that gives you a lot of power in a, in a way, because people and energy, I have no problem with energy because people give up their energy all day long.

As soon as [00:43:00] you become offended by something, now you are upset. You’ve , you’re, you’ve contracted, you’ve contracted your body in a way where the venous gland does not flow back to the heart and remove the toxins. And so there’s toxic, you become toxic in a way. and it’s, and now you are upset . Yeah. And in that moment you have a choice.

You could be a victorious, you could, when you leave, if you take that person and transmute them, let’s say they were really upset and said something really unkind, and you transmute them and give ’em a hug, and then they, you feel their heart and they give you a hug back. That’s empowering. That’s, that’s, that’s the true alchemist, that’s the true alchemist of turning base metal onto gold.

Taking some, something like that. Something that is hurtful and transmuting and into love, like compassion. That’s new what it’s all about in my world. Yeah. Yeah. Completely agree with that. Be able to do that. Cause that’s a, that’s a challenge when I [00:44:00] see somebody upset. I, I, I’m really challenged to Hilton.

Mm-hmm. , why would I waste my energy getting offended when I can use that energy to come make a difference in some way?

Gissele: When, when you are offended for me, like I find that everyone’s a mirror of me, and so if I get triggered by something, there’s something within me that I need to heal that is being mirrored back to me because why would I give that person more power to determine my worth or how I feel about myself. And so for me it’s more like if I’m triggered by something, I’m like, okay, so thank you for this lesson. There’s something there for me to heal. It really has nothing to do with this other person. it really has to do with how, what’s going on for me. and I love what you said about love because one of the questions that we’re asking in this new season of our show is really, we’re looking for people’s definition of unconditional love, which is what we’re hoping to get.

Like, you know, from my perspective, unconditional love is without conditions. I don’t need the other person to change or to be more loving. They [00:45:00] just, they’re worthy of love. So I was wondering what you could share, if you could share your definition of what you think unconditional love

Greta: is. To me, unconditional love is the antithesis of, I will love you if, if you do this, if you behave the way I want you to do, or if you unconditional love.

That doesn’t exist. You just love them because they are mm-hmm. , you just love them. Just love If they disappoint you, you still love them, let you down. You still love them. If they hurt you, you still love them. There’s no conditions and it’s, it is funny. That sweet spot in your heart is really,

it’s just such a pristine place to be because when you, when you get into that center, I mean, all of life becomes a living miracle to you because life is all about love. I mean, [00:46:00] that’s what it’s about. And, and people that have conditions, they’re only hurting themselves. They’re taking a love away. They’re mitigating the love within them for themselves because they may be in that moment that they would interacted with that person and they thought it, but they’re gonna carry that with them.

So, it’s something, it’s a journey. I mean, as I’ve grown older, it becomes easier to do. I think it’s harder when you’re younger, but then you get to the point in life where you go through things that really are life changing and you do not sweat the small stuff you say about like, really, you know? So I think it, part of it’s, I think it’s a maturity at a, at a spiritual awakening, self realization.

It’s a combination. And, when you go through challenges of life, like losing somebody very close to you that you love, something very traumatic happens, you start really seeing life through a whole [00:47:00] different vantage point. And, and you realize that all those things that you got upset about before, or.

They don’t matter. So to me that’s what it’s, you just have to take the IFF at it. I love you. I love you. If you remove the, if I love you unconditionally, no matter what you do, I love you because that love eternal and there’s no conditions on that love and it’s easier than people think, you know? And really, cuz in that moment you have a choice.

Mm-hmm. , you have a choice. You have a choice at that moment to say, am I gonna choose peace or am I going to to write or am I going to tell them what I think? ? Yeah. And like peace is a lot easier. Just let it go. ,

Gissele: I love the gift for yourself, right? Like that piece.

Greta: Mm-hmm. peace is so important in my life. I mean it really, I love that inner peace.[00:48:00]

So I really aspire all the time. That’s why I like, To always try to be transmuting things because I don’t want anything to take away that, that inner peace within me. And so I, so it’s my responsibility, it’s not theirs. I mean, no matter what they do, if I allow it to affect me, then I buy into it. But if I, if I maintain that center, nothing can take it away from

Gissele: you.

Yeah. And I think that’s true power because you don’t need the external to be a specific way in order for you to feel a specific way. You don’t need people to behave a certain way or circumstances to be right. It is being in your own power, in your own authority, right, of like, I choose peace and nobody can impact that choice unless I choose different.

Greta: So that’s, exactly. And that’s why I really connect with these internal archetypes and muse that really affect all of us. So if you connect with that, you can, people call it different names, but you know, it’s. [00:49:00] Something that is, is affects everybody. All of us have that. Like there’s really, at some level, there’s really one mind, so to speak, where we all become omnipotent.

And when you see this within yourself, when you, when you get to that place where you see those archetypes, those archetypes have a, they become an elixir or a power. If you tune into that, you know, it kind of means you threw things. Some people call it like an eternal spirit or a guardian angel, whatever it is.

And then those archetypes take different forms. Like I really love the archetype of transformation. I think that’s the one I connect most with, because you’re always transforming things and that manifests inspiration and manifests healing because you’re transforming. It kind of permeates how your entire life, always transforming things and.

I think that, you know, relates a lot to like [00:50:00] Jungian philosophy. You know, that’s about the archetypes. There’s, that’s something that really has influenced me a lot. Like studying, studying philosophers that had saw life through a, a lens that really enriched my life. Like I said, this is their vision. I’m going to try to see like the way they see it.

Mm-hmm. , you know, an as maybe just an aspect. Maybe it’s the whole thing. But, I mean, just to see things like Joel Rumi or Joseph Campbell, just to see like that way mm-hmm. , you know, and just see that, you know, when you follow your bliss, you will find those doorways when you want saw walls, really, you will find them and you’ll open those and you’ll find a whole universe await you.

Where before you were just looking at the wall. You know, and it’s kind of like when a bird flies in your house and you open all the windows and it keeps hitting the wall, and you go, the windows are open, fly away, but it keeps hitting the [00:51:00] wall, right? Mm-hmm. , and that’s what people are. And yet you, you try to coax it to the, see, how can I coax it to the window?

And I think that’s, that’s a metaphor for our lives. I really believe that a lot of people keep see that wall. And if they just looked around, they would see that doorway is wide open. It awaits them. Oh, universe awaits them if they only allow it. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. .

so it’s so funny because when you’re in fear, like your vision narrows , so you don’t see the opportunities, what do you think helps people be in allowance?

Gissele: Because I’ve heard that my husband and I have lots of conversations about allowing, about allowing, you know, you good to come to you, allowing yourself to follow your bliss instead of what you think you should be doing instead of, you know, like, oh, I should follow my bliss. Well, my bliss right now may be just sitting in meditation for three days.

Well, I still, should I be doing something? Should I have bills to pay? So, how, what, what helps us with allowance?

I think ev it’s [00:52:00] very individual. I think it’s very individual. For some people, maybe for that period, three days might be exactly what they needed to, to, dial their life down in certain ways and to, to flourish. I mean, there’s people that do that, they get away. But I think for, for people that the average person, They didn’t, they wouldn’t need, they wouldn’t need that much.

Greta: So you have to like, in that moment say, okay, I love sitting a meditation and I’m gonna try to get what I should get in three days, in 10 minutes. , right. , you know? Right. I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna let my mind wander. I’m just gonna get in there and I’m gonna decompress and I’m gonna really experience, I’m gonna take that magic with me into my life.

So you have to, we all have things that we have to do, and you can take it into a moving meditation to pay in your bills or working whatever you’re doing. So you carry that with you. So you say, how can I optimize what I’m doing? How can I take what, take this, you know, whatever it is. I don’t have a problem with, personally, with, some [00:53:00] people do, they get stuck on TV or that sort of thing.

I don’t watch TV or any of this. People say, you haven’t seen this movie. How much a show again? No, I was too busy creating. . Mm. And there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, lots of people get a lot of enjoyment out of that, but I’m just saying that. But there’s a point where that becomes too much, too, you know, where they have things that they need to be doing and they don’t join because they’re playing computer games or whatever.

And so you have to like discipline yourself and say, okay, I’m gonna accomplish what I need to do and then I’ll reward myself with this. So I think it has to do more with a reward system that I give myself challenges and then when I’m done, I work hard first, then I play hard. Mm-hmm. . So I think if you play hard first, you might keep playing

So I think you kinda have to you some psychology on yourself. Sometimes you gotta find out. That’s why I say it’s so personal. You have to find out what works for you. Mm. What works for you. And for some people they work really well with [00:54:00] positive affirmations about things. Mm-hmm. , some people, they just create.

They create a, a structure, you know, they create bar, they pay perimeters for certain things. Okay, I’m gonna work for this amount of time, time and then I’m going to do this for this amount of time. They’re very structured. everybody is so, all unique individuals, but I think if you explore, get to know yourself, you’ll know what works for you and you’ll know what you need to do.

I mean, I, everybody needs to make a living. Life makes, you know, money makes you comfortable. I don’t know if it really makes you happier, but it makes you comfortable and everybody needs to take care of that because if you don’t go do that, then that stress, you don’t have money to pay the bills. It’s very stressful.

So I do everything. I can’t avoid stress, but there again, I don’t wanna create more money than I need. Mm-hmm. , I know what I need. I know what I enjoy. My time and my time with people enjoy my art form is very important to me. So if, if I try to create a lot more [00:55:00] money and really grow my business more, and it takes away from that, then I’ve lost some of my purpose.

So it’s all balance. You have to always seek equilibrium and say, where’s the balance from me? And like I said, everybody’s a little different, so you have to really get to know yourself. But when you find that it’s not a problem, if you have trouble finding it, then you see mentors that can help you find it, because there’s a lot of people that, that, that is their gift to be able to see things that you don’t see and then mirror them back to you.

Then you go, okay, this is great. I’m, I’m, I’m the kind of person that would work well. This way. You create something, you create a, a structure that works for you, right?

Gissele: Yeah, absolutely. Absolut. so just a couple more final questions. I, I, I had heard, and I heard you mention it, and I think I’ve also read this in Joseph Campbell, it’s follow your bliss.

Like you’re the master of your destiny. Follow your bliss. Have you find in your life that by following your bliss, it led to more bliss?

Greta: It [00:56:00] does. It’s like, it’s like gratitude. The more grateful you are to people, the more they wanna do for you, and then you have more gratitude. Right? Nobody likes to keep doing things for people that aren’t grateful.

Yeah. right? And so is kinda the same way. When you follow it, it magnifies, it just keeps magnify. Yeah. And, and so I tell people like, just, you just, you gotta start somewhere. Wherever you are, start somewhere and it’s going to magnify and it’s going to grow. the people, people are unique individuals.

Mm-hmm. , I find some people it’s a little bit at a time. Some people are farmers. It’s like tilling the soil, getting ready and some people are like hunters just, you know, yeah. They don’t wanna, you know, but, but you have to find out what works for you. Every person is different and you’ve got to find out, you know what, that’s why I say it’s so important to read cuz you read things or you are [00:57:00] around mentors or work with, with life coaches who, whoever enriches your life, you work with those people and they, they do become a catalyst for those things.

And it’s, it’s an abundant universe. They can manifest those in their own way, and that’s the beauty of it. And we all work together and empower the lives of each other. I, like I said, people have enriched my life so much. Mm-hmm. I tell people like, if you could own, if I could only give back a portion of what you’ve given to me with what you’ve just said to me or what you’ve, or just watching your life mm-hmm.

Right. I said that it’s, you know, it’s, it, my heart will be full because it’s, it’s, there is, the journey is endless. An extraordinary have you have to love it. And every day I do. I wake up and I said, let’s see, gonna send me today? Mm-hmm. , you know what’s, [00:58:00] there’s always something. Mm-hmm. in some way, you know, moves me to a different level of self realization.

Like, who am I going to meet or what am I better read or what? And it always happens. Mm-hmm. and sometimes in many different ways, but there’s always something there. I think as you start looking for that, you find it because thoughts become things. Mm-hmm. , you know, it’s one of the laws of manifestation. So just understanding the law of manifestation and understanding, you know, how things manifest in the.

And how things start out, like in the, in the realm of idea and come the whole way down and manifest sort of like the tree of life. Mm-hmm. down into the physical reality. And you start seeing that and you start realizing that you are the master of your universe. Yeah. You know, God, you know, and if you’re not happy with your [00:59:00] universe, change it.

Like I guess there’s a zen cone where a student comes to a teacher and the teacher, they had a couple of said, you likes straights, pour the tea and the tea runs over the cup and starts going down the steps.

Greta: And he goes, what are you doing? He said, the tea’s running down the steps. He says, that’s how you come to me with a full cup. I can’t add anything to come with an open cup. You have to open your heart and you’re being to want to learn and do hope. If you don’t surrender to that, you come with a full cup.

Nothing can be added. So when you open that natures a vacuum, right?

Is filled with with treasures.

Hmm. You know, the treasures, like inner treasures. Mm-hmm. , you know, like the treasures that are priceless, the treasures that [01:00:00] enrich our life. But like we said, the love, the compassion, the inner peace, the wellness that, well, you want in our hearts, if you want that we have the ability to manifest. We just have to believe it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Gissele: And then we have to choose it and, and commit to it. Because I think that’s where the commitment, people just wave around the commitment. They choose it, they think that they’re choosing it, but then as soon as things don’t align or they don’t see it, then they’re like, oh, well that, that didn’t work.

And so I think you have to believe in it more than you believe what you see. So,

Greta: yeah. And sometimes when it doesn’t work, it’s really that aha moment. I talked about in the last seminar that at one point I really was kinda fascinated about going to Mount Everest, maybe in a base camp, maybe climbing it.

and I was just fascinated about people that had admission to tell a story and they wanted to give visibility. So they went through all that training and [01:01:00] hardship to go to the pick Mount Everest to tell the story. And then my hip started going. I go, okay, this is not going to happen for me. So I wanna get, tell my story.

Greta: I wanna do something that has a, a planetary influence. And then the Pole came. And when I first started working out, I never thought that that was gonna be the platform, but as I look back at it now, in retrospect, I was climbing to new heights. You know, I was climbing, I was filling the ecstasy of the heights, and being able to share that message on a world’s stage and give visibility to my mission.

Oh. Manifested through it. And at that time I would’ve never seen it. But the universe said, there’s a shift coming. There’s a shift coming. So the Pole became my Everest. Yeah. And everybody has an Everest within them. There’s something within them and you just have to keep going. And, and I said when I [01:02:00] started doing that, I never thought I was gonna compete.

I’d never did. Cuz I, my competition is in the mirror and when I go to still compete, I call it I’m going to perform or I’m going to a championship. I’m not competing with my friends or all my friends. Mm. I look at it really as I’m there to share a message. So I never thought I was gonna keep it. But you know, universe had different plans for me.

I realized that it, I, to give visibility to my message, I had to go out and do something that was going to create interest on a world stage. And it wouldn’t happen if I just. Have a good time training at home. Yeah. You know, you had, I had to like get outta my comfort zone. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

Gissele: You have to be, we had to be willing to get outta your comfort zone.

You also were willing, the, you have a great flexibility, which I think, because sometimes we have a vision of something and then we’re like, no, this is the vision. But [01:03:00] sometimes, as you say, the universe or higher self or source or God is saying, no, no. The, the vision is there. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s foundationally the same.

You’re, you’re climbing the pole instead of climbing Mount Everest. if you were willing to see it, but sometimes we’re so stuck in how the vision should look, that we miss our, our opportunity like that we may not, that it’s not gonna come, it couldn’t come back. But sometimes that we miss the gifts that are being offered to us in different ways.

And so you seem to have this incredible flexibility to be able to say, okay, maybe not this then what? right. Than, than this or this or this or

Greta: this. It’s, yes. It’s kinda like, and you, it kinda like, you’re always improvising . It’s like, make mistake kinda sounds like, oh, that was interesting. So it’s kind like you’re always improvising, so when something doesn’t work out that way, I, I know it’s, something else is gonna work out even better.

If you believe that you’ll [01:04:00] manifest it, you’ll, I mean, and something will be better about it. I mean maybe, maybe it’s not the exact, maybe you thought this was the apex right here and maybe it’s really something over here and maybe it doesn’t seem as high to you, but it’s just as fulfilling. Yeah. It’s just as fulfilling.

I mean, what I, if you find you can find fulfillment in the little things. Mm-hmm. the tiny things in life, you know, sometimes the simplest things give you the fulfillment. So you’re not doing it for this, this big climax here. You’re doing it. For this, this inner feeling that you have within this sense of wellbeing that somehow that you’re living life to its fullest.

Mm-hmm. and sharing in it. Sometimes it’s very small things, sometimes it, you know, bigger things, but it’s, it’s, it’s really the, it’s the quality of what you feel. It’s, there’s something within you that is just priceless and it’s just a sweet spot [01:05:00] within all of us that all of us could live there more. I mean, this would be a different world people lived in that, you know, that center spot, like the Dai Lama says, you know, practicing kindness.

That’s, that’s the message. It’s all about kindness. If we all had kindness in this planet for each other, imagine the kind of world that we would live in. Mm-hmm. It’s all about kindness, and we have to think in every moment, how can I be kinder to myself, to my friends, to the people I come in contact with?

How can I have more compassion? We can never have too much compassion. We can never have too much love. We just, you just have to allow it to keep blossoming and blossoming and blossom. So it contains the entire universe. Mm-hmm. , I guess that’s what Rumi talks a lot about that in his poetry. Yeah. About it just containing the universe.

And he says, you’re not a drop in the ocean. You are the, you are the [01:06:00] ocean, you are the, but we think we’re just this little tiny person in this world. We’re the magnitude of what we can become. It’s just, it’s unlimited. Mm-hmm. . And I believe that people just have to open their hearts to that vision. And the more you open that heart, the little pieces at a time, Some, sometimes you have, there’s a quantum leap, an epiphany or something just, it just changes overnight.

You know, you just feel this effervescence within you and that becomes life enhancing. So to me that I try to make choices that keep maintaining that, that’s, that’s the goal. And if you don’t, you don’t beat yourself up and. You know, I’ve learned something from this and I’m going to grow from it, right?

Gissele: Yeah. You choose again. Yeah.

Greta: Oh, yes, yes. Go ahead. Moments . It’s ok. .

thank you Greta, you’re such an inspiration. I wanted to give you an opportunity to share with people where they can find you. So name your [01:07:00] Instagram, your website, anything that you wanted or anything that you’re working on that you want people to, to know.

thank you. Thank you. And you’re such an inspiration. thank you on Yes, youre on Facebook. and YouTube. It is under my name Greta, g r e t a. Pontarelli, P as in Paul, o N as in Nancy, T as in Tom, A r e l l I. I have a handle on Instagram. It’s Ariel Zen, like Ariel, A e r i a l z E N. Because when I first did it, I thought, this is my meditation, you know, you know my aerial zen, like zen being something that takes you to another plane or level, you know, that, that defines words.

Greta: You say you can’t define zen in words because it’s just, just is. And so that aerial zen and follow me on all of ’em. I’d love to connect with people if you don’t hear from me. Reach out again. Sometimes things go into these [01:08:00] folders, you know, that, you know, and I go, wait, there’s a folder here that I didn’t know was there, and I haven’t looked there for a month.

I don’t mean to ignore anybody. Just find, just keep looking. You’ll find me. Because sometimes I don’t check those. I think you have to approve somebody first before you can visually see it. But then the Fuller’s still there. But, I love hearing success stories. I love people that reach out. people ask me a lot of questions about things.

and I really believe in my heart. I love, love, love serving people, because I find that it allows my mission to grow. And it’s all about manifesting that of an abundant life. Mm-hmm. and abundance is within Right. . But, so I love your message and I thank you so much for sharing. Thank you so much for being on the show and, and creating a platform of people to, to know that that life is truly a, a miracle and they can create those [01:09:00] miracles.

Greta: These like everyday miracles, everyday omens, they’re all around us. And the more grateful you are for everyone that comes in your life, like we talked about earlier, they magnify and they keep growing. Mm-hmm. . And, I’m just so grateful for people like you that enriched my life beyond measure. Thank you.

Gissele: Thank you, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. To everyone at Tune in as well. Please go check, Greta’s website, Greta’s, Instagram as well as get in touch with her. and please join us again for another episode of the Love and Compassion podcast. So

Thank you

Greta: for sharing the love. Namaste.

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Transcript{00:00:00] welcome to the Love and Compassion podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives in our world. Today we wanna talk about the power of surrender and letting go.

our guest is Scott Goyette and he is, former chairperson for educators for the National Speakers Association. He’s also a podcast host, author, college professor, and personal development coach. He empowers his audiences through memorable stories, impactful lessons and tools that help you become more mindful and more deeply tuned into your senses.

Gissele: He’s also the founder of the Go Love movement. He practices what he preaches by loving himself enough to allow his cup to overflow so he can always be in service to others. He believes that life can be so much more fulfilling when you find your purpose, love yourself, and conditioning, and live in a state of constant gratitude.

Please join us in welcoming Scott. Hi, Scott.

Scott: How are you Gissele? , It’s good to see you. Yeah, it’s

good

Gissele: to see you [00:01:00] too. I’m doing great. I’m doing great. I was wondering if you could start by telling our audience a little bit into how you got interested in the Go Love movement and some of the stuff that you’re doing.

Sure, Sure,

Scott: sure. the easiest way to say this is, and I, and I know that many people are gonna listen to this in the future. Or definitely realizing that this world isn’t always what would call fair.And so I was in that space where, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re fighting, you’re competing everything in life. Especially, you know, for men it’s all about competition.

I’ve gotta be the best at this. Gotta be the best at this, find the pretty wife, have the house, do the whole thing. And I was just burnt. I was just miserable. And, you know, on, on paper I had everything. Like, everything worked out. We had our house paid for, we had nice cars, we were traveling. Beautiful wife, daughter on the way, the whole thing.

Everything’s just picture perfect, isn’t it? And I just felt empty. And one day I went to sleep and it was the weirdest thing because. I woke up the next morning and I had [00:02:00] written a bunch of stuff on a piece of paper, and one of the things I wrote was Go Love Now, and I was trying to figure out what does this go love now thing mean?

Well, it turns out somehow when I was half asleep, I bought the domain name golovenow.com , and I created two acronyms and one of ’em was L O V E, the other one was F E A R. So it was Love and Fear and the Love acronym Next to it, I wrote, Listen, so look at it. It’s listen, observe, voice, and empathize with the heart.

And then for fear, I wrote, Forgive, eliminate beliefs and programming no longer serving you. Accepting yourself and others where you’re at in the journey and rise up and be resilient. Now, I did this and what I thought was a sleeping state since then, I realized what happened was I was probably half asleep burning the candle on both ends, just running like crazy.

And so I was probably in this state estate, which is that, you know, state of mind where in the unconscious mind it’s where you go in hypnosis, where you go in deep meditation. And so I’m in [00:03:00] this beautiful space where I’m deeply connected to source while I’m still awake. So I’ve got the ability to write things down, but my memory’s not clear.

But I was very clearly dialed a source. So ironically enough, everything that I wrote in these acronyms was literally being spooned fed to me by, some people want to call it God, universe, source creator, call it what you will. This was my first deep attachment to this space, this being this, something much bigger than us or exactly what we are.

And I was like, I’ve gotta do more of this. And so guess what I did? Instead of going to do something with this, I went back to work, worked a little more, got burnt out, but I kept coming back to it. You know, you have that wake up moment. So the two second version of all this is I built this understanding that Source spoke to me in a beautiful way and gave me some tools to share with others.

I built those over the years. You know, I’ve been doing this for 15 plus years with Go Love Now, created the movements, spoken in schools, coach people, do all kinds of stuff. And it has been nothing [00:04:00] short of amazing. And it, and it was literally spoon fed for me, to me from source. And that’s what I teach people how to do, is to create that awakening where you connect more deeply with self.

And I tell people all the answers are within. You don’t need to look anywhere outside. Just look in yourself. Use the rest of the world as mirrors to find the truth within you. Yeah. Thank you. Did that cover

Gissele: everything ? Yeah. Like that was beautifully said. And you know what? We are so much in agreement in terms of that it really comes from within and we have to make that choice.

And I love that it started when you were sort of half asleep because I mean, the topic of today is non-resistance. So isn’t that kind of the, the state where we are kind of the least resistance? Cuz you’re falling asleep, you’re not really kind of churning, you really are opening up yourself to potentials, into possibilities.

And so I think that’s, that’s so powerful. agree. Yeah. And and it’s so interesting that that you know, you went back to work cuz don’t we do that, Don’t we kind of say Okay. We’ve gotten this, you know, like what some people for you [00:05:00] might call a download or like, you know, like, you know, your soul spoke to you and basically said you need to do this and this is such a powerful thing to do.

and then you’re like, well, Monday morning back at work. Right. And it’s so funny when we don’t listen to that inner guidance because we are, we start to, what, what happens is we become in resistance, right? And so we’re like, Well, I gotta pay my bills. I gotta do things a traditional way. And so, and that kind of pushes us a little bit outside of our comfort zone.

Gissele: Were you pushed at all by that sort of, Information what it was asking you to do, maybe. Oh

Scott: yeah. And I, and I love what you’re saying too, cuz it’s, it’s, I mean, I can explain it in like very simple terms and it, it took me a while to be, you know, able to explain it this simply. But I mean, think of this, your earthly body.

Okay, we’re eternal spirits and if we can collectively agree that in some way where something eternal, right? We, we know we’re more than this, this body’s beautiful. It’s, it’s wonderful to accept it, fall in love with it, use it along the journey. But as a human, [00:06:00] one of the things that we do do is we embrace comfort.

You know, we’re comfort is survival, you know, and, and we’re spiritual beings that can thrive. So while we’re sitting here and we want to remain comfortable, I mean, like I said, everything that was ever taught to me, my identity, think of this was built. You know, first grade, second grade, my parents told me this, the church told me this.

This person told me this. All nice people really trying to make Scott a great person. No one’s doing anything wrong. And so I embraced that identity, which was spoon fed to me, call it me. And then what’s really happening is I’m literally just following what everybody else said to do. But I’m a fractal or a perspec prospective point of God source creator.

So they’re telling me to do things like make a bunch of money, work hard, blah, blah, blah. They’re not saying there’s no limits, but there’s no limits. And so when we embrace comfort and say, I’ll go to work and I’ll do this and I’ll get this and I’ll get. We’re, we’re creating limits and, and we’re working in a very [00:07:00] safe space.

So comfort’s all about safety. even if you’re an abusive relationship or you are in a job that you know, you think sucks, it’s still comfortable, you know what you’re gonna get. So people return to it and return to it and

Gissele: return to it predictable and habit forming. Right. Like, like you’re saying, like it’s, it’s, you do the same thing every day.

Mm-hmm. and opening up yourself to the unknown can feel really scary. Yeah. Cause it requires you to let go of those identities. So what help you let go of that, you know, Scott with the job and Scott with the, and actually start to kind of embody more the, the, the calling perhaps that was, that you were moving

Scott: towards.

Yeah. And, and then that’s a, that’s a beautiful question and, and one of the things that I always tell people to do, and I’ve done this my whole life, is I speak something and I speak it to every. And now I’ve gotta do it cuz I’m the kind of person who follow through in what I say . So I’ll tell you, I’ll say, Hey, I got a great idea.

I got a great idea. And goes, Oh, you’re being hypocritical if I don’t do it. So once I’ve spoken, I’ve gotta do it. So I told enough [00:08:00] people about, you know, go up now I’m gonna create this, I’m gonna do this. And everyone’s like, Well, you keep talking about you didn’t do it. And I’m like, Oh, great. So now I’ve created an accountability system throughout my, my peer network.

One of the, the things that I always share with. People, you know, first and foremost is speak it into existence. Create people who have heard you say it and then become it. But a simple analogy to look like. And, my coaching clients have heard this a million times. So if anyone’s listening, they’ll laugh and go, I get it.

I get it. You’re constantly saying it. Mm-hmm. is, we live under this beautiful tree, this tree of life. And that tree of life is representative certainty, comfort. And it’s awesome. That tree has provided shelter, a place to play, a place to return home. It’s wonderful. And right next to it is life. A knife is a river.

And so we get fish from it. We can bathe and it, we can plane it, we drink from it. It just, it’s incredible. But we’ll go in the river, but we always have to come back to aka certainty the river. I mean, certainty or comfort. And, and here’s what I tell people. At some point in time, there’s going to be storms in life.

And we’ve seen it [00:09:00] through covid, we’ve seen it through people passing. We see there’s some time where you’re like, But this isn’t the way it was supposed to be. Well, here’s the reality. The river’s gonna rise that tree. If it’s still home, it’s gonna cause you to drown. Cause if you have to stay there and say, This is my home, then you will drown.

There’s going to, it’s going to happen. That’s what life does. It changes this dynamic. And so one of the weirdest things to say is when you start to sense the river might be rising or even maybe before, what would it take you just to jump in that river and truly surrender and just say, I trust life. I trust source.

I trust creator. I trust God. Define it how you like, but what would it take? And I can say this, a lot of people, including myself, have had one foot in the tree and then this amazing stretch and you’re like, I’m in the river, Have let go. And we’re so full of it. Yeah. Oh. And well like, look at me. And, and it’s trash.

I want this dream, but I’m still gonna do this or I’m still gonna do this. And we’re so scared to go all in. [00:10:00] And an easy way to think of this is, if I jump in that river, okay, it’s gonna move me to a different place. We know there’s more trees, we know there’s more opportunity. Life is forward moving.

Scott: Its dynamic time as you created for man, for experience for us, for us to play and dance together in. And once we embrace that reality and we know that there’s infinite trees, there’s infinite homes, the home is where the heart is. And we’ve heard that this world gets really, I don’t wanna say the word easy, cuz nothing’s easy.

It gets really entertaining and much easier to process and understand.

Gissele: So I totally get what you’re saying. but it takes a level of trust. Mm-hmm. in, in, I know that historically I had not been taught trust. I came from a child, like a, a family that had experienced a lot of, you know, child abuse and neglect.

And so you were not taught to trust. You couldn’t even trust your family. You couldn’t trust strangers. You can’t trust life. You’re always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And [00:11:00] so that’s sort of what we, But when you look at society at large, that’s sort of what they teach. Right. Fear this and fear that.

And so it, it, it’s hard to go from that to go through, Okay, river, take me away,

Scott: Oh yeah.

so what helps, what can help people just take one step forward, even though Yeah. You know, and then we’ll talk about the one foot, cuz I’ve done that too. Yeah. So what can help people get a little bit closer to trusting a little more? That’s,

Scott: that’s an amazing question. And, and here’s what I found.

You know, when I go into schools and I’ve spoken to some young kids who have been through tons of trauma, you know, I see them saying, you know, I don’t trust this person. I see it in their eyes. They’re like, Know, I could be in an inner city school where I look very different from these kids. I could just be Hispanic or black or some, some other nationality, and they’re looking at me like, Who’s this six four white guy?

You don’t know me. You don’t understand me. And I start speaking my truth. And very quickly I see these kids go, How do you know me and what’s happening there? It’s nothing that I’m doing. And this is what I’ve realized. [00:12:00] It’s, I’m literally holding a mirror up so they can start to become introduced to themselves.

And so I’m, I’m speaking their language, but what I’m really saying is, don’t listen to what I’m saying. Don’t trust me. Trust you. And there, there’s a way to do it. You know, I, I’ve been blessed to go through some trauma and some, you know, issues that have allowed me to be a very good mirror to other people’s, to other people.

And, and in that, It just feels great. And, and trust me, it came with pain, hurting, suffering. I don’t love the moments. I love the outcome. And I love the fact that the river banged me off some branches, but said, You trust, you, trust, you, trust. Here’s what we’re gonna do with you. So when I tell that story and say, This hurt, this hurt, this hurt, this hurt, this hurt, this hurt.

Like I almost died here. This happened this. And all of a sudden by the end they’re like, Huh, my life’s not quite as bad as I thought. . And so I would say to, I would say this, start with trusting yourself. And I always go back to that. Everything’s on the inside. I can remember sitting with my mom, a [00:13:00] single mom thinking, How can I possibly ever have what those kids have on the other side of town with all this?

And all that just was so insurmountable. There’s no way I’m ever gonna be, I remember thinking, I can’t travel to Florida. Like that was a big thing. You know what I mean? Like, now I’ve seen like 60 countries. Yeah. Yeah. I know ,

Gissele: you’re

Scott: like Florida. But, but, but even like state lines, like, you know, do we have money to go to New Hampshire to that cool hotel?

Like, You didn’t have those things yet. And so I couldn’t see the end and little things that people would say when inspired me to trust myself more. Nobody said it ever this succinctly, but I, the, the bottom line is look inside yourself and, and everyone needs to re realize this. We are all fractals or perspective points, whatever you wanna call it, of creator consciousness, source, God.

So if you are in the image of then you are. And so how can you possibly not be enough? So as you start to recall that, you’ll fast track slowly but [00:14:00] surely, but you have to start with that belief. I don’t care what your religion is, your background, your spirituality, understand that you are part of that source.

And so you are perfect at source. But in this human form, we make mistakes and that’s okay. You never fail. I either win or I learn I don’t fail. Yeah. Yeah. I love that saying. Yeah. Oh, it’s beautiful. I don’t know who said it first. We, everyone gets, you know, credit, but it’s beautiful.

Gissele: Mm-hmm. . So I love that you started with trusting ourselves. Cause I think, and in my own journey in terms of learning about trust, that was one of the things I realized it wasn’t, that I didn’t trust other people, was I didn’t trust myself to be able to cope with their betrayal. Right. And so, once I realized that, I was able to then say, Oh, I’m giving my power away to these people.

I’m, I’m giving my, my ability to be able to cope to others. And so I was able to kind of start that trusting in myself, trusting in my abilities, and remind myself of all the times that I had been able to overcome adversities. Right. [00:15:00]

Scott: A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, it’s very hard to trust yourself, yourself, I mean, like, not you for all of us.

It’s a weird thing.

Gissele: Yeah. It, it is, it is a weird thing. and with that, you know, you also mentioned not, you didn’t use the word compassion directly, but you had mentioned, about understanding that we’re enough, you know, being, able to practice, self-kindness.

and so all of those things are important kind of on the journey to trusting ourselves. Cause we’re not always gonna get it right. We’re not always, we’re, we’re sometimes gonna be in the river and sometimes we’re gonna be in the tree, Right. Like with the, with the other trees, right? And so it’s about slowly, for some people, slowly, you know, some people can jump in, others can’t.

Gissele: So slowly moving towards that river so we can finally do the jump, right?

Scott: And that’s a, so, you know, you used the word compassion, the word I’ve been following in love with lately. and I do this a lot. I fall in love with the word. I’m like, so sold on gratitude. Like I’m so sold on empathy and I go deep in that word, but grace has been my word lately and.

You know, and [00:16:00] embrace his compassion, but give yourself some grace. So, you know, somebody might be listening to this and might say, You know, I’ll never be able to jump in the river. You don’t understand my situation. And here’s the deal, I don’t know your situation. I don’t, and I don’t know your journey, but here’s what I do know.

I do know that you’re composed of this same stardust, the same beautifulness, the same everything. We’re all the same. So I know this, you have all the capacity that I have. There’s nothing that can stop you. And it’s up to you to trust you to know you can, and that I do know. So what you decide to embrace and attach to and, and think of this, a lot of people attach to obstacles and they make that part of their identity, mean.

There, there’s, I’m sure, you know, we could do a dissection of all the things where I think I’ve broken through and I’m like, Okay, I wasn’t there yet. and that’s fun. Like, so give yourself some grace. Nothing happens all at once. You’re gonna have an awakening moment and you’re like, Oh, I’m enlightened.

I’m here. And then you get kicked 50 times and then [00:17:00] you’re like, Oh, oh. Ah. I mean, I, I have more moments where I’m like, I’m in touch with everything and then I do something like, Are you serious? Like, are you real? Did you just do that? Like, you know better? And here’s the thing, We’re dancing between infinite spirituality and this beautiful soul that we are and this human form that makes mistakes.

It’s the human. I mean, think of this. The first time you learned to dance or you learned to play a sport, or you learned to swim, you almost drowned first before you swam. You, you tripped over the ball and landed your face. Before you dribbled, you stepped on someone’s foot before you dance, So, mm-hmm. , give yourself some grace.

I mean, this is.

Gissele: Even if you, I love the idea of grace. And you know, like my husband calls it all, we’re just in the duality, right? Mm-hmm. , because it’s, and it’s hard to, at times it feels difficult to pivot. I do love that you reminded us. and this is, we have these conversations here at Maitri about the fact that we are made of source in our own aspect of source and therefore have the divinity within all of us.

[00:18:00] But it’s hard to remember our own divinity and the divinity of other people, especially when they act in hurt ways. and so that can really pose a challenge for us. If you actually look at the world, there’s a lot of canceling people. not a lot of forgiveness. , not that there’s a judgment. I mean, it is what it is.

but I think we forget, we forget our own power, and then we forget really the divinity of other people. So, so how do we do

Scott: that? Like, let’s, let’s chat about that right there. Yeah. Cause course, so of course, you know, I’ve had this con, you know, conversation with so many people, and I always love having, with,someone new.

How do we love the unlovable? You know, part of surrender, like think of like, we’re sitting here speaking today about surrender. So we’re jumping in the river, We’re doing, let’s say, part of the river says that we’re all one. So right now, think of the politician that you can’t stand. Think of the actor or actress that did the bad thing.

Think of that family member who’s, ooh, and how do we love them? Like how could they possibly come from the same space as us? How could we all come from the same energy? There’s no way. [00:19:00] Yeah, and, and I have another silly analogy that I’ll share and then I want to get your feedback on this too, but, You know, you always hear about breath being source.

You know, we, when we breathe, we meditate and we do breath work. So watch this. If this is source saying, let’s create a dual existence, you know, to bring your husband in, it’s perfect. You get the duality of the clarity. So here we are. Here comes the duality ready so that we can exist. The breath is the duality.

So here’s the darkness, the creation, the light. We’ve got just this expansion. So some people are gonna be away from source. Further in the breath, some people are gonna be close to the source. So somebody says Jesus is their savior. Perfect. Maybe Jesus is just barely out in that breath. So very close to source.

And maybe somebody, you say Hitler, how could Hitler be human? Well, maybe he’s the furthest point out from source. So what do we do as humans? If we’re all one and we’re part of source, we guide the way back, we walk home together. I’m not saying love him in the [00:20:00] sense of love, what they do. I mean, whoever you feel like you hate right now.

And there’s people, I mean, listen, I’ll be super eloquent and kind and everything on the show, but I’m gonna go have a political discussion with my wife and go, What the f is wrong with this person? . And then I’m gonna come back and say, How can I be better to guide people to a space where behaviors like this don’t exist?

Is that easy? Oh man, I wish I had a, a handbook of how to do it. Perfect. I’m just like you. I’m playing the game. I’m in the dance. But if you think about this, if the Gandhi, the Jesus, the Buddhas are just barely broken away from stores as the breaths being taken, They’re the first part of the expansion.

And those people that we see is just disgusting. They’re the furthest point, but they’re still part of the breath. So how can we bring them back to the lungs to Source/Creator together? And, and that’s what we’re doing here. That’s part of the dance. So you don’t even have to connect to them. You don’t have to be part of them, just be the light and lead the way and.

Again, it’s very easy for you and I to sit and say this right [00:21:00] now in the heat of the moment. How do we do that? And I think it’s like anything else, it’s a practice. What do you think? Like how do you do it?

Gissele: Like I,agree with what you’ve said. it is a practice and a choice. So for me, I think one of the things that I have found within my self love journey is the more that I loved myself and accepted myself and really understood the reason why I did the things I was most hurtful when I was hurt.

And so the more I understood my own behavior and the more I was able to give to myself and fill, like you said, fill my bucket so that I could give to people for my overflow, the more I was able to understand other people’s behavior. And I think once I got an understanding that we are part of source, The soul cannot be destroyed, it cannot be broken.

Mm-hmm. . And so I think we are in this life, and I say, I think because my kids challenge me and they’re like, You don’t know that. How do you know that true? so for what I feel that I know, what I know is that we are [00:22:00] all in this world to be mirrors of one another. And I think maybe when we cross over, we say, Hey Scott, thank you so much for playing the villain in my life.

It really helped me to set boundaries, love myself more. Right? And what did I do for you? And so when you look at life that way, it becomes a little bit easier to see the divinity in other people. Because when I think about when I’ve been the most hurtful, I want other people to forgive me. . Yes. Right?

And so other people also wanna be forgiven when we have been the most hurtful. So it does help me kind of relax those. Those judgments that I make. And I go back to compassion my husband and I always talk about the definitions of compassion. And so, and for him it’s allowing all things to be with non-judgment and curiosity in, in, in non-resistance because there is no good or bad, there’s just a reflection.

And so when you shift the way, it becomes easier. But for me, sometimes I [00:23:00] have struggled with that. And so what I do do, and, and that’s why I go back to the choice is if I can’t love you, then I will allow somebody else to love you. I will allow, I will take that time to put my own oxygen mask on, but I won’t prevent other people from loving you.

I

Scott: like that. I like that a lot. Like, so, so part of love could be, and, and I, I guess I was trying to like say something like that. I love the way you phrase it because I think just stepping out of the way sometime and, and I’ve done that actively, I. So, you know, I’ve been in relationships with friends or I, I mean, you know how this goes different.

You know, we, we elevate in frequency and just cuz your best friend is a child, you know, was your best friend doesn’t mean that you guys go in the same direction. And we make choices cuz we know the five people that were on the most we’re gonna become that. So yeah, there’s people who end up disappearing from us.

And those breakups or breakaways, you see a massively tumultuous, it’s like a freight train and, and they suck because you love that person. And I think [00:24:00] part of that love and the recognition, cuz I, I’m the kid and I say kid cuz I still see myself as a little boy in Boston. We call each other kids . I will go to everybody’s event, funeral, anything like where somebody’s heard or in need.

I’ll be the first one home every time. And then I’m like bragging about it. It’s, I truly love people. I really do. I might not like what you do. I might not have a connection in the same frequency, but I’m in full recognition. We shared a part of our life. You still exist here. Our spirits are eternal together.

I just cannot connect with you in this moment, so I love what you said, right on point. I’ll step away and let, let somebody else love you. But I will guarantee you, and this is why I love social media, media, I’m admiring your success from far, Even though I think you’re nuts, and I can’t believe your beliefs.

I am admiring everything that you are doing from afar, and it feels so good to see you. Better off and growing, even if it’s not in a space, I can be part of that. And I mean that, [00:25:00] like I actually feel like as I was saying it, you suggested it feels nice.

Gissele: Yeah, it does. I was reading a, a quote today that just kind of came at the perfect timing since we’re having this conversation.

It was from like a 1920s book, Florence Scovel Shinn . She’s up there with Neville Godard

Scott: on, I was gonna say it sounds like a Neville. God I love him.

Gissele: Yeah. And so, and they were talking about how she quoted someone else and she was talking about how people don’t understand that loving those that are hurtful or you consider your enemies is actually good for your health.

Because when you keep resentment and anger in and all that stuff and it’s actually physically harming you, and so it is, it is something, cuz you had mentioned earlier that interconnectedness, right? We’re all part of this fractals of the source. It is good for us to actually be loving and compassionate towards.

Those people that may be, even if it’s from afar even, I can wish you well and it could just be from afar. I think [00:26:00] it, it kind of boomerangs back to us in positive

Scott: ways. A hundred percent. And, and, and, and so it, it brings up the thing of what’s selfish and what’s selfless. And I love the question that, you know, I think I asked somebody a long time ago, and then we had many philosophical discussions about it.

Friends was, you know, Mother Teresa or one of these st like people selfish or selfless. And you can say, of course she’s selfless, you know, she had the orphan, she did this. Everything was about everybody else. But her reason for doing things is she thought that she’s gonna go to a higher place. So isn’t she kind of selfish?

She’s like, I’m gonna be the best one for God, I wanna be the favorite. Like, we can play this game all day long. And, and I love that. Like, so what is self and I love defining self is everything that is seen and unseen. So selfish and selfless literally become the same thing as long as you’re taking care of the self.

If that makes any sense. Yeah. And so I love it. Like I, Yeah, yeah,

Gissele: yeah. That was amazing.Well, I was so glad you brought the issue of Mother Teresa because stuff is coming out [00:27:00] now that sometimes in the homes that they were in, that they felt they were abused.

And so it brings that sort of, you know, you were talking earlier about like, how do we be in our soul and our divinity and still do this human thing? And that was the things, you know, she probably oscillated between like this loving, compassionate being, and then this the human thing that maybe had to do some human things or maybe had these perspectives that were, And so we don’t throw people away because, you know, like, because they make mistakes or because they don’t always act the way.

And I think that’s the biggest challenge we face. We still think that, Love and compassion has to come from people like Buddha or Jesus, and we’re like, Well, I can’t be Jesus or Buddha. I might as well just give up and, and not even try because I, I can’t attain that level. And that’s why there was a, I don’t know if you’ve heard this, there was a huge backlash when the Dali Lama made a comment about women being the Dalai Lama in the [00:28:00] future.

People

Scott: were like, I’m getting ready. I know’s funny, I, I fall by my listener was stuff all the time. To me that would be super inspiring, but like, I, I get it. But, but, but so here, the whole thing of just that right there, okay, everything is identity based. Anything that Mother Teresa did that she was considering to be selfless is still based on an identity that’s delivered from others.

So she’s taught about God through the Bible and this person shared this story and that person said, This is what a woman should be like. And this person said, This is what a nun should be like. And this person said, and they define that, and she has to receive, even if you’re the most critical independent thinker.

Some of that stuff was sticky to your identity. No one comes in and just fully observes, you know, your husband’s idea of compassion is beautiful. It’s just observation. It’s not attaching to anything. But I mean, I can sit here and tell you that I’m very good at critical thinking and I can sit between two things and I’m, I, I’m probably attached to so much.

I mean, this, I’m so sticky to things and you’re going to be, [00:29:00] and there’s nothing wrong with that. And that’s how we create this world. You know, Neville Godder talks about that. God is imagination. Yeah. So it is, it’s in the image of it’s imagination. I mean, really think about it like, are, are, are we spirits?

Just realizing this world in our brains and just creating a dream that we live in sounds pretty, pretty realistic to me. We’ve created this, these physical beings to play in dancing. So if that’s the case, I think what she’s doing, you know, what, you know, Mother Teresa’s doing or, or what these people.

Say that women are gonna be the next do lama say like get people to get a little freaked out so they jump into the river and step away from the tree and surrender. But they have to start breaking down the identity. We want emotion. That’s what we’re here for. We’re here to dance. I feel fear. I feel angry.

I feel joy. I wanna dance and feel it all. And so keep speaking the things that make people a little uncomfortable. I mean, I thinks beautiful.

Gissele: Just to clarify, I think people [00:30:00] reacted because he had said that the woman had to be attractive. It might have been lost in translation, but Oh, maybe.

Scott: Hopefully.

Yeah.

Gissele: Yeah. I think it might have been lost in translation, but I think maybe, maybe it was a a, a. A realization that women gets cut such slack, that really, that’s all they see. But it kind of set off this whole thing about, oh my God, that dah. Doesn’t think women could. And, and it’s like people were ready to cancel.

And it’s like, no, you can’t negate all the good things that Lama has done. You don’t really understand. You know, There was no further questioning. There was no like, Well, what do you mean ? Right? There was like just a reaction, a visceral reaction. And it’s like, okay, let’s just, And I think we are in such a, it seems like the world is in such a state of reaction that we’re not really allowing that surrender so that we can get curious about one

Scott: another.

I agree. And curiosity is that, that the creation, I mean that’s the beautiful thing about you take the wisdom of adulthood and you keep the curiosity of childhood and there’s life, you [00:31:00] can’t throw away that curiosity. Can you say that again? Take the wisdom of adulthood and you integrate the curiosity of childhood.

That’s what an adult real, that’s maturing to me. Like I still want, I want people to go. You act like a child and if they really dig deep and realize what it is, I’m curious. Like, I wanna try that, I wanna do that, I wanna do that. And it seems hyperactive and silly and goofy and you’re right, it is cuz I want to engage.

I don’t want to die because I’m old and just drift into the, you know, my death. I want to, I want people to be in the midst of a conversation with me and suddenly like, Scott, Scott, you know, like you’re still living, being curious.

Gissele: Yeah, for sure. And yeah, when you look at children, they have such a vivid imagination.

Like they could play by themselves for hours and imagine like kingdoms and castles and so on and so, and, but we lose that, that we, we shame it, we shame it into submission and we shame it into like, you know, elimination. and, and that really prevents us from, we become so resistant and so constricted.[00:32:00]

And I think that’s where sometimes we struggle.

I think you’re a hundred percent right. I, think if we just stayed curious just look at everybody. You know that you love that there’s, there’s something that, not that you wanna change. I, I I can bet anything if you add curiosity to the mix of that person, a lot of the things that maybe frustrate you would disappear.

Scott: Yeah. You know, the people just setting their identity in their ways, Like just eliminate that. We could have a show right now, Whatever you tell me if it’s right, and, and or if it leans more toward truth than everything. I believe I’ll chuck everything right now, and I, I mean that like, people who know me well be like, it’s true.

You know, I’ll believe like so much stuff, but, but I’m, I’m literally waiting for you to throw in a piece of information that destroys my whole formula. It’s kind of like crossword puzzle and all of a sudden you’re like, Damn, that one’s wrong. Or Sodoku or whatever. They’re all wrong now. Cool. I’m really mad that I gotta start over, but I’m actually more excited that now I’ve got an [00:33:00] opportunity to get the board right.

Gissele: Yeah. And it’s an opportunity to really expand your consciousness, right? Like the, the everything that we see in the world been created by our level of consciousness. So when we say, Well, I didn’t directly participate to racism, Yeah, we did because we other, other people. So everything that has been created in our life reflects our level of consciousness.

So, and that’s the hard part, which I’m sure you find with your clients as well, which is like, you gotta change for your world to change. And it’s like, no, no, I want Bob to change . I want Scott to change so that I can feel good or I can feel peace, or I can feel whatever. Right? And I think that’s the hardest part about us really creating a different world.

It’s really sort of,

Scott: cuz we don’t, So, So go back to the first thing we talked about, trusting yourself and loving yourself. Yeah. If you truly buy in, you’re a fractal or prospective point of source, and you love yourself and trust yourself, then what happens? You realize the amazing hugeness of you. [00:34:00] But the thing is, if someone comes up to me on the street, even today, if I’m in a bad mood or things are off and says, Hey Scott, if you change, the world will change.

I’m like, We just shut up and stop throwing all jargon at me. . Cause, cause, cuz I go to human. I go full human. Yeah. I get, I get involved. My, and I’m, I won’t really say that, but, but you know what I’m saying? In my brain, I go back to that is all the stuff I even say True. Oh my God. And I start to question, but I know what that is and that’s comfort surfacing, saying, Scott, maybe you’re not that big.

Maybe. Maybe. And I’m not saying big in an ego way, it’s the opposite. It’s hard. Maybe you can’t change the world by changing and you start to question it all. That is, is the safety showing up the illusion? It’s, it’s that unconscious mind saying, Remember when the gym teacher said you’re not good enough?

The teacher said, You’re not smart enough. Or a certain person in the neighborhood said, you’re a troublemaker. It’s all coming back to slow you down from your growth. And, and the reality is, [00:35:00] Right to the first question is trusting yourself. Trust yourself. Cuz you know yourself. I am source, I am a,chunk of source.

So if I change me, that’s recalling source, then of course the world changes. But, but even in saying that, sometimes it feels overwhelmingly scary, but we’re both doing it. We’re sitting here and having a conversation. I’m gonna sit and have another conversation at a podcast. I’m gonna, you know, teach some students, We’re gonna be back at school next week.

I’m gonna keep doing it and doing it and doing it, but man, I need reboots and I get sucked into my human and I make plenty mistakes, but I don’t fail. I learn. So,

Gissele: so one of the questions that I know I have had, from people I’ve worked with is, how do I tur, like how do I learn to trust myself?

Well, because I fell in love with this person and this person was wrong for me, or I lived. So then people stopped kind of trusting their heart. So in your case, you were guided to do this goal of movement, but [00:36:00] when you went to schools, you had some challenges. Right. And so, so how did those challenges, not help you doubt yourself, but rather pivot in maybe in a different way?

Scott: Yeah, So, so here’s the thing, and, and this is we have to make mistakes. We have to try. You have to keep moving and doing and doing and doing, and then respond to what’s in front of you. Not react, not come with emotion. Be like, This sucks. This didn’t work. I’m angry. Oh, I see why that didn’t work as well as it could have.

I see how that could grow. And the first thing that happened to me was I went in these schools and I was so authentic and real and transparent that the kids were like, They became very emotional. So I opened up Pandora’s Box. Now some of the emotion was joy, Some was lots of crying, some was fear. Some was, I don’t know if I can even go home.

I need to talk to somebody. But here’s what happens. You’ve got a bunch of kids who have been anesthetized. They’re on their Ritalin, and they’re told to shut up. They’re told, come to school and do as they’re told. They go back [00:37:00] and forth and home, and they’re not living. They’re barely in survival mode.

We’re gonna create more and more adults who are into the idea of division, into the idea of corporate slavery, into the idea of just do the same thing over and over and over if we allow that. And so when I went into the schools, when I noticed was I literally cracked the code, or no, I take that back, I created a system of mirrors that allowed the kids to crack the code to open up into this world and truly thrive.

And in that space, guess who shut the box? The teachers, because they didn’t know that they could manage this school. If their emotions opened up, They looked at themselves. They said, I don’t know that I can trust myself. Am I even a teacher? I saw it. And so all these kids who need something now have another form of abandonment.

We like the message, we got the tools, we’re in love with it, and now they’re shut down again. And now I’m part of the problem of the solution. One thing I’ll never do, and I, and I have this conversation daily in my own [00:38:00] home. Is that part of the problem? Is that like, you know, the things that your kid is like, will you just shut up?

Or your wife’s like, is that part of the problem, part of the solution? Is that part of the problem, Part of the solution. And I want to come back, I say it so it comes back at me. Even though I’m delivering something, I’m going to schools and only creating a moment. We don’t need a moment. We need something more permanent.

So now what I’m doing is I’m kind of rebooting that, figuring out which schools will fully receive it and the teachers and the staff already. but mostly I’m actually coaching, you know, people just like us. Somebody who might be a corporate employee, a nurse, or just, just everyday people who can go into the schools and with their own kids and their own groups, bring the tools and make sure they’re being handed off correctly and become the mirror that we’re talking about.

So, yeah, I say all the time in my class, I’m like, Yeah, I was definitely wrong with that. You know, I say it to my kid, I’m like, Okay, I, I was completely wrong. And you know, [00:39:00] kids look at you almost like you’re crazy. And then instantly guess what they do? They have a ton of respect for you because they’re like, you’re not like everybody else.

And I’m like, the truth is I am like everybody else. I’m just realizing that I am source, and why would I be belittling other components of source? And so that’s where I’m sitting right now. And I don’t know if that’s an enlightened moment. I don’t know what, doesn’t matter. I’m gonna keep doing it and I wanna see more people to it.

So, goal of now has shifted from a school program into a space where, you know, somebody could take a 12 week coaching program. I do pretty much everything we’ve set in here. Words, compassion, talking about forgiveness. it’s all, it’s all in there. It’s a, it’s almost like going into a, a room of mirrors for 12 weeks that will enhance every part of your life.

And you’ll walk out a completely different person that will be self-driven. I’ll just be there supporting and 10 other people that you’ll end up following in love with. [00:40:00] You’ll just walk out a better person and it’s, it’s really fun. Yeah, it’s really fun.

Gissele: thank you for sharing your journey. I, I think, I saw a similarity between the journey that you had done in, in my journey.

I definitely. Fully support and agree, about how, like, you know, I find that there is a willingness in young, younger people to kind of talk about this or be able to look at it. but there is, a lot of resistance from like, maybe the adults in their life because they don’t, they may not know how to regulate.

Gissele: But one of the things I think that I learned in my journey is, that I, and this might not apply to you, that I had a vested interest in, in, in, and that was kind of the human part of it in, in that changing. and I think one of the things that I’m starting to go, going back to the topic of surrender is, allowing the journey to take me where it’s supposed to be.

And, and those people that are supposed to be there will come to me rather than me going, Cause I tried to do it for many years in child welfare, right? How do we inject greater compassion than [00:41:00] child welfare system? Like I saw the kids and the families and suffering, and I really got caught in the whole concept of suffering.

but when you look at things from the perspective of everybody’s divine and everybody’s here on the journey and they can’t get it wrong, like you said, right? You can’t get it wrong. You fail or you learn. that allows me to sort of relax, and say, you know, they’re on their journey and if I’m here shining my light and that’s my husband’s big comment, , I just wanna show my light

Gissele: And I’m like, But I wanna change it. I, I’m helping the children. but really it’s, it’s how do you allow yourself to surrender in and, and make change in a different way? Cuz you have to pivot, right? Obviously your original plan was, and I love that you have done that because you’re still, you, you, it’s not like you stop trusting yourself.

You just decided, oh, okay, maybe the approach has to be different. it didn’t stop you from trusting yourself, which I think is

Scott: great that what you just said is total genius and needed to be said. And I’m glad you you shared that because you know, Think of how we’re taught. We’re, we’re taught to, you know, you, [00:42:00] you go to school, you figure out your interest, you decide that that’s your why, and you take that why, and then you run with it and you create a plan.

Because we’re taught to be intellectually smart. So if you’re somebody who’s been blessed with a big brain, you want to use your big brain, but, but that’s the the biggest thing that, that puts an eclipse on our heart. And, and our heart needs to be what’s big. I mean, I’ve just seen so many times where I start, I, I try to create, try to create, and there’s been so much resistance, and the universe is literally just kicking me in the face and just kicking me in the face.

And I’m like, The world sucks. Everyone’s wrong. What’s wrong with me? This the perfect program. If every kid had this, the whole world would change. Here’s the deal. The the universe is literally saying, Calm down. Just calm down and be, and as soon as, I mean, I was at 20, if I was in your podcast, I’d be like, out of charts, I’d be going like, And this is what we need to do, and if everyone does this today, you’ll be a 50.

And, and I was like the teacher. And now I’m just like, Listen, here’s, I’m speaking to you for my heart. [00:43:00] This is what feels right. This has worked for me. These people have done this. Here’s a couple tools. Use it if you can, you know, I’m all in support of you. But back to the big thing is look inside for the answers.

If you’re getting internal roadblocks, trust them far more than anybody else. It’s, it’s just, just say, What am I doing wrong or not? What am I doing wrong? What could I do differently? There’s, there’s one thing. I have people, write a mission statement in my, my group, and I don’t always tell everybody that’s everything that’s in the group, but this is what will happen.

The first time they write it. They’re gonna say this, I wanna create a better world for my children and I’m gonna do everything for my wife, and I’m gonna be the best chef in the world, and the whole world’s gonna change. Great. Okay, cool. So what happens if your wife isn’t here? What happens if your children aren’t here?

And what if you can’t be a chef anymore? Cause you cut your fingers off and I’m just making stuff up. So that means now your whole purpose is gone, . And so I’m gonna go through very quickly just to see what this would [00:44:00] look like. But I’m gonna say first and foremost, source put you here with brilliance. So how are you gonna bring that brilliance to the world?

And then they say, Okay, here’s what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna be an amazing chef who, you know, makes amazing meals. I’m like, Okay, great. Okay, so what if you can’t be a chef? So finally they start, I started to asking questions like, what do you do in your day to day life that that really makes you happy?

And they. I coach baseball, I’m a chef and they start talking about everything. And so we break it down and we realize it’s not the cooking the food, it’s, that’s the vehicle that you use to bring people together and make people happy. And with more questioning, they start to say, I bring people together and I create memories and moments.

And I’m very good at bringing people together and getting them to connect cuz connection’s, everything. And then suddenly I’m like, you do that in baseball, you do it at home, you do it. So that’s your, that’s what you’re supposed to be doing. And the people that you love are your, your wife, the children, the kids you coach, or the, or the people come in.

So now [00:45:00] just let that love from your brilliance overflow. And so you start realizing, Wait a second. This is not like it’s way simpler, but we’ve, we’ve decided our identity. I am a chef, I am a dad, I am a husband. I’m good at all. Just be a brilliant, a prospective part of a God source creator and just dump that brilliance all over the place in your dance.

That’s it. And I know it sounds, you’ve gotta keep coming back and trusting and saying these things and resisting the noise that says I have to hold onto the tree and just, just playing the river and dance. And I, I, I, all I have to say is this. If you’re close in a space that this makes a ton of sense and you’re like, I’m doing that, or almost doing that, awesome.

If this makes no sense yet, don’t even worry about it. Because conceptually the things that are sitting here aren’t really sitting here. They’re being planted here. Mm-hmm. receive it if it makes no sense. Mm-hmm. , just sit. Maybe somebody else makes that, [00:46:00] you know, nurtures that seed down the road. You forget anything that was said here, It doesn’t matter.

Just allow your heart to receive it cuz you guys are all gonna do this. We’re walking home together. Beautiful journey.

Gissele: Oh, I love that you said that. And I love the fact that you mentioned about planting seeds, cuz that’s really all we’re doing is is sharing with each other and you never know what the seed’s gonna sprout.

Mm-hmm. . so yeah, so that’s, that’s so important. And I also really appreciate that you talked about being versus doing Have we not been doing to death?. Like it just seems like, but, but I was taught that I was a do like you’re supposed to keep doing and doing and doing. And the key to success is doing. And the more you do, the more you do on social media, the more you grow your business that way you gotta do.

And for me, like the allowing is sort of like, you kind of have to go outta your mind and into your heart. You kind of have to stop doing what other people are doing. But there’s times when you. Am I just totally like out there or am I really [00:47:00] just tapping into, So it, it goes back to that self trust, right?

Because when you look out there, the doing, everybody’s constantly doing. And so it’s not about the beingness, but really that’s the key to the alignment, which is the key to the manifestation, right?

Scott: What are your thoughts? I wanna make this so simple because I danced in this space forever, and I’d hear people saying like, You’re a human being, not a human doing.

And I’m like, Yeah, yeah, but you, you can’t do anything. Like if you just be, then nothing happens. This is, this is the whole thing wants this If source. So real quick. So you create your mission, right? So you’ve got that why, And my why is, my why is very simple. I empower those who have lost hope or are suffering to find their brilliance and share it with the world.

So I’m getting people through this podcast or I teaching through all that. Hmm. When somebody is in that space of suffering and they can’t, they can’t find their way out of it,[00:48:00]

So imagine this, and this is the easiest way to look at if I’m gonna do all these things. And that’s what I wanna see in my life, is I did all this. If we know that we’re an eternal being and we’re connected to source in the moment of being is where we’re getting all of our energy, our downloads. So think of this, okay?

You always hear about the present moment. You listen to people like Eckhart’s Tolle and, and they’re talking about present moment. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. If right now I’m thinking in my head, I have to do another podcast tonight. I’ve gotta run and eat dinner with my wife, then I’m supposed to meet somebody. There’s like still some emails I have to send.

Then I’m not present. But here’s the thing, if right now I just take a deep breath and I just know that this game that I’m dancing in right now is all going on around me, and I just recall exactly what my mission is. So I’m here helping people achieve their [00:49:00] brilliance. What’s happening to me right now is I’m very, very, I’m here, like I’m looking around, I’m feeling everything’s just kind of resonating.

I just feel connected because I’m creating that connection with. So, I mean, even listen to some of the things. If you guys wanna listen to this podcast again, listen to some of the things where you’re like, Oh, that really connected with me. I can tell you right now, I don’t speak from here anymore. That’s why sometimes I’ll get lost too.

I’m speaking for my heart. I’m, I’m literally dialing in, in a present moment and receiving, and I’m just channeling when I’m feeling with you guys. And when I say feeling, it’s coming through my heart. Like I’m out of my mind and into my heart. When I say in my twenties, I’d be like, This, this, this. I would study to say, Make sure they get the 10 points.

Make sure they know this. Make sure they know this. I won’t even know what I said afterwards. I’ll listen to it later. Go, That was really nice. I really don’t, and we don’t plan any of this. I said, You know, she, she’s like, Do you want to plan it? She like, Do you wanna plan? I’m like, Just ask me whatever you want.

Yeah. And, and, and [00:50:00] that’s what I think we need to do more of, because the more comfortable I am, or you are or we are in the present moment, the more we’re connected to source, the less noise or tree is gonna hold us. We’re just gonna be in the river flowing. And that’s when the dance really gets beautiful, gets very fluid, super dynamic, super wonderful.

And, and if that sounds crazy, just think again. All the food, all the nourishment, all the beauty, all the truth from source is only coming to me when I’m being not, while I’m doing. So that’s why we’re human beings. When I sit and I receive, I’m elevating and I’m amplifying, and I can be that light that I’m saying that’s gonna help people walk home.

If I give you like 15 ways to be smarter or 30 ways to make more money, it’s just stop it. Stop it. . So,

Gissele: and, and you really got me thinking as you were talking about, when you take [00:51:00] action from a place of inspired of inspiration, right? Mm-hmm. . And so when you actually go, Oh, and it doesn’t feel like work.

It does, it feels like joy because you are inspired to do something like the way you were inspired to talk to the young people about love and about loving themselves. and so it doesn’t feel like work. but I think we kind of have historically been taught that you gotta grind it out and there’s gotta be a payment for this, this to experience this life, which is, we’ve been doing ourselves such a disservice.

Scott: Right? A hundred percent. Yeah. And, and, and everything has to come with a, a currency exchange that, you know, it’s always monetary, like Yeah. It, it’s, it’s very interesting cuz and that would be another, that would be another great discussion to have a whole show on the, the currencies that we accept for our time.

Because first and first, first of all, time is a manmade construct and we don’t need to go in in depth on that. But if time’s a manmade construct and the currency exchange for time is what [00:52:00] they’re all constructs. And so what I’ve been starting to really do is think of. Abundance and re receiving in what does that currency look like if we’re energetic beings?

And so, you know, this, this to me is currency sitting here talking to you right now. Mm-hmm. , you know, knowing that this is gonna sit out there for people to grow from, from, or maybe plan a seed as we discuss, Man, this is priceless. Like if I’m an extension of source and I’m dialing into source to share this message, there’s currency in that.

And I know what’s gonna happen because this is how the world works. When I need an extra nickel to do this or do this, someone new will sign up for coaching who heard this? Or someone will hire me to be a speaker. I don’t advertise, I don’t spend money on it. Like, anytime something is needed for me to grow, it shows up.

Mm-hmm. , I mean, I. I don’t know how to do seo. I don’t even know how this gets places. I really don’t know. I know someone’s gonna listen to it, call me, and I’m gonna say, Thank you so much. I love you. [00:53:00] You’re the best. It doesn’t matter to me. I, and maybe I’m doing too much human being, but, but I really, really do believe in that.

Gissele: No, and I think that’s the beauty of surrender, and I think that goes to that inspire action. Like, you know, like instead of attracting and aligning rather than forcing and pushing and make it happen, right? Like, I myself have done it. I know people that didn’t really advertise stuff and stuff just comes, like, my husband’s one of them.

He just like, stuff just comes when he’s ready to allow it. Just, And you’re like, But how did they know? Like, Right. And it’s so weird. I have friends, my friends Susan Maries the same way as well. Mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm. . And so it’s like, it, it’s just, and it, it, it really is kind of like a. Paradox to live in those two worlds to see this part where people are grinding it out and they’re like, And that’s how you do.

And then to see that, that how you had talked about grace, the [00:54:00] allowance and the grace of the things that flow, and then people consider that lucky. But that’s everyone’s birth rights. It’s all of our birth rights to live that way. To live in joy. Yeah. and to, to be able to flourish that way

Scott: a hundred percent.

And, and so it is this simple like, like think of what you just said. You know, you’re saying that, you know, your husband just almost changes the channel and suddenly it all comes, or I’ll just get into a space and then it comes. Or my wife says, Hey, we need this. And it comes. This is exactly what’s happening when you are in alignment with your mission.

And so that’s your why. Once that’s dialed in and you’re aligning to it, so you’re living it, the universe goes. This station’s really clear, and then they put all the good music on that station. That good music is the how. So what happens is, once I define my why, and I know exactly what it is, all my vehicles align to that.

I’m teaching people as a business professor, as a podcast host, on a podcast, as a guest, as a coach, as a re you know, we have retreats all over the world. My wife and I we’re doing stuff that’s, [00:55:00] it’s all the same. I’m finding people and I’m helping them find their brilliance and share it with the world.

So once you align with that and, and that’s in alignment, the universe is gonna go, This is exactly how this world grows to be a more beautiful place. And it’s gonna hand you the how and the how is the currency. So, I know that sounds crazy because you have to go, let’s go back again, the full loop. You have to trust you and what are, you extend the sense of self.

You are source, you are creator. So once I, trust me, aka trust source. If I have that mission in alignment, and I have the vision to allow that mission to unfold, the how is gonna show up and mm-hmm. , And as I say that, I wanna say that slowly because I, I’m going back to 20 year old me, 30 year old me, 10 year old me.

And I’m trying to think of the way to phrase it. And I’m, I’m, hopefully, I’m doing it in a decent way because there’s days where I would’ve like, what are you talking about? Like, if I heard some old man, [00:56:00] 51 year old man telling tw big, You’re nuts stew. But I can, I can promise you that I went through many battles to get to this place, to get out of my mind and into my heart, and you will reap.

This is the reward you’re gonna reap. You’re gonna reap peace and deep connection with self and others. Now listen that again, if you do the things we’re talking about, when, and if you’re ready, you’re gonna reap. Deep connection and peace and feels good. Feels good.

Gissele: Yeah, for sure. I think one of the things that people need be, have to be willing to do is to let go of the identities that really hold them down, as you had mentioned.

cause to be honest, like if you had asked me like maybe. Five years ago, 10 years ago, that I would be doing a podcast on this, I would’ve said no way. Like, I didn’t even know what a podcast was, but I really honestly had a calling. It was almost like a pushing that this is what needed to happen. This my [00:57:00] probably was my life plan, whatever I wrote out in this before I came, I was like, Okay, I’m gonna do this.

but I had a very set idea of what I thought my purpose was. And so it wasn’t so much about trusting my, not trusting myself. It was, it was the allowance of being able to open up my possibilities to be even bigger. Because for me, I always thought like, you know what you had said about going to schools?

Gissele: I thought, Oh, I’m gonna transform child welfares gonna be more compassionate and more loving you. Yeah. That kind of resistance. And that’s, it’s not the perfect way, Scott, that they just get them to, to grind that love in there. and so, but it didn’t work like there was just, so I, and that’s what I kept hitting wall after wall and so much resistance and it was really when I was willing to just go.

Okay. I’m completely open and receptive to what the universe or source would like me to do. Just offer me some guidance to the next step in the next step, in the next step. And that’s how I kind of started doing this podcast. And it was a series of people with [00:58:00] extraordinary stories of compassion for giving extraordinary things or talking about some amazing things like yourself today that I ended up doing it.

I, I, and everything sort of fell into place, which was, it was, again, I didn’t know what a podcast was. Yeah. So, yeah, it, it’s totally, And so you are, you are correct. And that how reveals itself and when you are in alignment, when you’re in your path, it just kind of shows. We just often, they’re so stuck on those identities.

Like, I am Giselle, I am this woman, I am this Latino, I am this mother, I am this whatever. I used to work in child welfare and thought I was gonna change it. All of these identities that we have, we have to be willing to let go, which. Can feel a little bit scary. So my, my next question to you is, in those moments when you were the most scared, when you were feeling really challenged to move beyond those safety comfort boundaries, what helped you?

I asked

Scott: a lot of questions. a lot of questions. No, like my, my answer was like, they’re so fast. I [00:59:00] heard you like asking it. And, and I, to this day, like, like I will sit here, like if you said like, Hey, let’s try a new, a new food. And for some reason it scares me, I’m gonna be like, Well, how do they make it?

Well, are you sure? What sick is it really spicy is like, I’m gonna be like a child. And so again, what are we talk about earlier? Curiosity. I’m gonna ask as many questions so that I can understand what this might look like. I think too many of us, like we go into something and the fear is we don’t have answers.

So things can get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and you can be very afraid, but you start asking questions and then you’re like, Oh, that doesn’t sound that bad. Okay, so, okay. That’s not, it’s not, So we’re actually questions whittled down the size of the thing that we think we can’t get to.

And by the way, I love spicy, so that wouldn’t be a question. I was, I would say, can you make this? Don’t, But I love it, .

Gissele: I’m like, Thank , God that I can dance. Cause I think they’re gonna pull my Latino card, . They’re like, You don’t like spicy? Don’t

Scott: think we might have. It’s funny you just say in the dancing.

So, like we have these things that we do to always enrich our relationship. And [01:00:00] I, I’ve got a few good moves in salsa, so I can do, like, I can do like one or two dances in salsa. He’s like, Oh man, your husband can dance. But then I have, it’s the same moves . So she’s like, Tonight I’m gonna teach you two more moves.

And I’m like, and I’m weird. I dance, like for her I like it, but I do it like definitely for, I wouldn’t go dance on my own, you know? Yeah. But, but I do see the value. So I’m gonna have two more moves and maybe next time we can show the moves live on there. Yeah, for sure. .

Gissele: Yeah, that would be absolutely terrific.

Scott: Yeah. But so the fears, breaking down the questions that’s ask a lot of questions of people who have been there before. It gives you a sense of like, okay, how can I get a little bit more, I know you have to go, so I want to give you an opportunity.

Gissele: I want you to share with the audience what you’re working on. what do you want them to know?

Scott: Absolutely. So, you know, one of the things that I do like you is as a podcast host, I have a show called The Unfiltered Experience, and you can find us@theunfilteredexperience.com. You can see our links where they’re [01:01:00] videocasts and YouTube, LinkedIn, Facebook, Spotify, iTunes, all those places. You can listen to the audio version.

Also, if you want to go to scott goyette.com or golovnow.com, you can learn more about the programs. One of the things that I’m doing, like I said, is the, 12 week coaching program. We’re constantly doing those. So I’ll have roughly every three months I start up another, sometime I take a mental break of two weeks between , we also do, yeah, all that stuff.

also doing, quite a few retreats. You can go to my wife’s page at Meditation Mutha it’s, meditation and then m ut h a.com. And there’s all kinds of retreats. we’ve got one in Tanzania. It’s, gonna be in February of 2023. every year we’re in Costa Rica. There’s a bunch, bottom line. Go go to those places.

Scott: We, there’s no shortage of nonstop things happening, and we love to share other people’s stuff and go to everything and connect and plant seeds and just, just meet up. So, yeah, that’s it.

Gissele: Oh, thank you so [01:02:00] much. I’m doing the meditation retreat It’s so much fun.

It’s so good. It, it, it

Scott: is. And you know what’s crazy? The, the, the la I loved every one of ’em, and yesterdays was really upsetting me. I felt agitated and I figured out what it was good. So the woman’s voice, Reminded me of teachers who were condescending. It was almost like they were like talking to you.

And so I was having trouble listening to it because of a PTSD moment. Yeah. Where I was like, it felt condescending and I was like, it was irritating me and I had to listen to it finally. But that’s what I came up with cuz I was really, you know, I’m sitting here trying be like, It’s just me. It says, and I’m like, What’s wrong with this woman?

And I was actually mad at her by like minute 15. I literally like, And it’s a great, it’s a great meditation. It’s just me. Yeah. But that’s what’s so fun about being in practice. What

Gissele: a gift. Huh? What a gift in terms of the awareness that you can actually just kind of go, Oh, okay. That’s what’s happening.

And

Scott: so, you know, it’s taken a lot of time to get there. That was not spoon fed. I would’ve [01:03:00] just been mad at that woman for weeks, a couple years

Gissele: back, . No, no, for sure. And we’re getting better and better at it, right? Like I, I, you know, I went to the bank today and got triggered by people that weren’t able to help me.

And so I was just practicing in the moment. Like, I’m like, Thank you for this gift. Thank you for this gift. Although sometimes you’re like, Thank you for this. Good, thank you. What

Scott: was going speak at first? Become it later. Whatever it takes. I’m with Thank you for this gift. Yeah, yeah.

Gissele: Anyways, love. Oh, it was such a pleasure having you.

We hope that you come back. I would love And, yeah. and please tune in for another episode of the Love Compassion Podcast with Gissele . See you soon.

Scott: Love you guys.

Gissele: Love you.

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