The Jay Allen Show on Safety FM: Recent Episodes
Safety FM
The Jay Allen Show is a podcast of the broadcast that can be heard on Safety FM. The show is an ongoing discussion of safety cultures, personal safety, human organizational performance, system safety, and PLUS the things Jay wants to discuss from his or his guest point of view.
Podcast Episode Description:
In this episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen, we dive into the transformative power of "Simple Revolutionary Acts" inspired by the insightful work of Dr. Todd Conklin. If you've ever felt stuck in a work routine, uninspired, or simply going through the motions, this episode is for you. Join Jay as he explores how small, intentional changes in the way we think, interact, and work can lead to significant improvements in our professional lives. From choosing positivity and practicing kindness to boldly trying new ideas and managing your boss effectively, these revolutionary acts are designed to inject fresh energy into your daily routine and foster a more fulfilling work environment. Whether you're looking to enhance your own work experience or influence the culture of your entire workplace, this episode offers practical tips, real-life examples, and inspiring insights to help you start your own revolution. Tune in and discover how you can create a positive ripple effect in your workplace, one simple act at a time.
Speaker 100:03This is this show is brought to you by safety FM. Okay, hello and welcome to another episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen. I hope everything is good and grand in your neck of the woods on this Tuesday July the 23rd so let's start talking about everything that's going on because we have a very special episode inspired by Todd Conklin's book, Simple Revolutionary Acts. We will explore some of the simple yet powerful ideas to revitalize yourself in your workplace.S1
Speaker 1
00:45
These ideas are practical and easy to implement, yet can make a significant impact on how we think, feel and interact with work. So let's dive into this revolutionary act that can transform our work lives. Let's start with revolutionizing the way we think and feel about work. First act is always to choose positive solutions.S1
Speaker 1
01:10
Now this might sound simple, but incredibly powerful. When given 2 options, always pick the 1 that's the most positive. The mindset that can lead to forward to moving direction in every workplace interaction, starting with yes, can create momentum that leads into better outcomes. For example, Instead of saying, we can do this because we don't have enough resources, try saying, yes, we can do this if we have the right resources.S1
Speaker 1
01:38
It's about framing your thoughts positively. Next, let's talk about kindness. Imagine a workplace where everyone concisely tries to build the self-esteem of every person they encounter. This might seem as a small act, but if we can do this, it can have a huge impact into you and your organization.S1
Speaker 1
01:58
We're instantly taking a moment to thank a colleague for their hard work or offering the kind words during a stressful day can boost morale and improve relationship. Kindness can truly be revolutionary act if in today's workplace where stress and pressure often dominate. Now let's focus on interaction with others. 1 of the key points from Todd's book is that everything in your workplace happens through conversation.S1
Speaker 1
02:26
By realizing the importance of simple acts of talking and listening, you can create significant changes in the workplace. Effective communication is the cornerstone of successful and happy workplaces. Think about the last time you had a meaningful conversation with a colleague. How did it make you feel?S1
Speaker 1
02:44
How did it impact the work and conversations built through trust, understanding, and cooperation. Another important act is to perceive more about the world and the people you are working with than perceive about you. This means paying attention to non-verbal cues and body language. For example, noticing a colleague's body language during a meeting can give you insights into their thoughts and feelings.S1
Speaker 1
03:12
Are they leaning in, showing interest, or crossing their arms, indicating discomfort? The deeper understanding can help you navigate your workplace more effectively and building stronger relationships. Moving on how we can manage our work, Todd suggests being courageous. Sometimes you need to pretend to be brave until you actually feel brave.S1
Speaker 1
03:36
This might sound strange, but it works. For example, if you're nervous about presenting in a meeting, act like you're confident. Over time, the behavior becomes a habit and you'll actually start feeling more confident. Practice taking risks, low consequences, situations to build your confidence for bigger challenges.S1
Speaker 1
03:54
Remember bravery is a skill that can be developed with practice. Another critical point is to decide what you want and then make a plan. Think about where you want to end up. Work backwards to create your plan.S1
Speaker 1
04:08
Strategic thinking can help navigate your career and personal growth more effectively. For instance, If you have a goal is to become a team leader, think about the skills and experience that you need to get there. Then start taking the steps towards acquiring the skills and experience. This is clarity and directions are invaluable.S1
Speaker 1
04:29
Think about that. Let's talk about managing our bosses aggressively managing your boss expectation of your behavior performance and worldview can give you much control over you on how you manage or being managed set clear expectations and communicate openly to create a more effective working relationship. For example, if you need some time to complete a project, communicate this early rather than waiting until your deadline. Proactive communication helps manage expectations and reduces stress.S1
Speaker 1
05:05
Lastly, let's touch on a fun 1. Work and dance like nobody's watching. There's something powerful about moving joyfully through your workplace. It can inspire others to create a more positive, energetic environment.S1
Speaker 1
05:19
And don't be afraid of bringing your whole self to work, including your passions and your quirks. For instance, if you love music, maybe start a casual lunchtime jam session. The small acts of joy can transform to the workplace culture overall. Think about that.S1
Speaker 1
05:36
These are just a few of the revolutionary acts that Todd Conkler's book, Symphomore Revolutionary Acts, talk about. Implementing these simple changes can lead to a more fulfilling and enjoyable work experience. So let's share a personal story. There was a time when I felt stuck in a routine at work, feeling unmotivated and disconnected.S1
Speaker 1
05:57
I decided to try some of these revolutionary acts, like choosing a positive solution and being kind. Over time, I noticed a significant change in my attitude and atmosphere at work and it really worked. So let's go ahead and wrap this up. Remember that change doesn't have to be drastic.S1
Speaker 1
06:15
Sometimes the smallest acts can lead to the biggest changes, whether it's a kind word, a positive mindset, or courageous step. These simple revolutionaries acts can make a huge difference. I challenge you to pick up 1 act from today's episode and try it out in your workplace. Observe the changes and let me know how it goes.S1
Speaker 1
06:37
You can reach out to us on social media or through our website at safetyfm.com. Thank you for joining me for today's episode of Safety FM. With me, Let's start a revolution in our workplace today. Stay safe and stay kind and stay revolutionary.S1
Speaker 1
06:55
This has been Jay Allen signing off here on Safety FM. Let's do it again here in the near future.S2
Speaker 2
07:33
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information.S2
Speaker 2
07:53
Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, mechanical, electronic, recording, or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, Jay Allen.
Speaker 100:04This show is brought to you by Safety FM.S2
Speaker 2
00:12
Well hello and welcome to another episode of safety FM with Jay Allen. I hope everything is good and grand inside of your neck of the woods. And listen, today is Tuesday, July the 16th of 2024.S2
Speaker 2
00:29
And we have a lot of stuff to talk about, but we're going to do something a little bit different today. Recently, I was on another show and we're talking about some things that are upcoming in the month of September. And that's what we're going to talk about today. I was actually recently on the pre-accident investigation with Jennifer Long and Todd Conklin.S2
Speaker 2
00:50
And I would love for you to sit back and take a listen to what is upcoming in regards of a conference that we have coming up here in the next few weeks. So September the 10th through the 12th, we'll talk about that. And then we'll come back on the back end and talk a little bit more. So take a listen to this here on Safety FM with Jay Allen.S1
Speaker 1
01:10
Hey everybody, Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast. It's so good to have you here. I am the host and the driver of this ship, even though today I'm not really driving it, Jay's driving it, but I'm pretending like I'm driving it.S1
Speaker 1
01:21
This is the podcast and with us today are the fabulous Jay Allen and the fabulous Jennifer Long. And we have 1 goal and only 1 goal. And that's to talk about the meeting in Santa Fe in September. Jay, what are the dates of that meeting?S1
Speaker 1
01:34
I don't mean, is it like, I shouldn't even say. So Jay, what are the dates of the meeting? And then I'll see if my guess would have been right.S2
Speaker 2
01:41
September the 10th through the 12th.S1
Speaker 1
01:43
Yeah, it would have been wrong. So the 10th through the 12th, it's in Santa Fe. It's at, a hotel, the quiet.S1
Speaker 1
01:51
It's actually kind of a nice hotel. I mean, it's not like Ritz Carlton, Jennifer. I mean, it's not, it's not going to take you to that level, But it is a kind of a nice hotel, although it's a little creepy in that it used to be a hospital. Ooh, I don't know how you feel about that.S3
Speaker 3
02:07
They did a good rehab.S1
Speaker 1
02:07
Yeah, well, yeah, they did. It's nice. It's got good meeting room.S1
Speaker 1
02:10
Well, Jay, which meeting room do we have? Do we have a good room?S2
Speaker 2
02:13
Of course we have a good room. And do, are we saying the name or are we trying to scare people off?S1
Speaker 1
02:16
No, I don't. I don't want to say it because I might get it wrong.S2
Speaker 2
02:20
OK, it is. It is the Drury Inn Plaza Hotel.S1
Speaker 1
02:24
Drury Inn Plaza, which is a St. Louis company, if that strikes me as familiar. So and it's nice, it's right on the Plaza, which that's a plus.S1
Speaker 1
02:35
That's a total plus. So what are we going to accomplish? What are you doing this year, Jen? What's on your agenda?S1
Speaker 1
02:41
Surprise.S3
Speaker 3
02:46
Well, my agenda is how do we, how do we deepen under the understanding around where accountability fits in the picture and what are we doing to implement that in a way that makes sense based on all of the stuff that you guys talk about.S1
Speaker 1
03:04
Oh, nice. That's such a good fit. Cause that is the ultimate mystery question.S1
Speaker 1
03:08
I mean, that's the question everybody, ultimately if you say, hey, is there any question that we're not answering? Pretty good bet they're gonna talk about accountability because accountability is weird because it's hard to let go of, but yet no 1 understands it. Is that fair?S3
Speaker 3
03:27
That is fair. I think Everybody's got their own understanding of it based on their experience of it. And they don't think about it strategically and culturally of how do we put a standard in around accountability so we have mutual understanding.S3
Speaker 3
03:41
Yeah. So that we practice it in a way that makes sense together.S1
Speaker 1
03:45
What I think is so cool about your work is that you really look at that accountability as a standard. It's something you do before the event happens, not something that you do after the event happens.S3
Speaker 3
03:57
Correct.S1
Speaker 1
03:58
Correct. Which is amazing because the vast majority of people we work with, and by work with, I mean our coworkers, look at it completely the opposite. Accountability is engaged after bad things happen.S3
Speaker 3
04:13
Right, they're looking at accountability as an outcome and not a practice.S1
Speaker 1
04:17
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So Jay, who else is going to perform? Oh, God, that was wrong.S1
Speaker 1
04:22
It's not really it's it's not a performance.S2
Speaker 2
04:24
It is a performance.S1
Speaker 1
04:27
Dance monkey dance.S2
Speaker 2
04:30
So you're going to have the you're going to have Andrea Baker there. You also have Bob Edwards. And then of course we've talked about a few potential surprises, but I'll leave those off for the time being.S1
Speaker 1
04:39
Right. Right. Some, some interesting surprises that I think have high potential. 1 that I'm really looking forward.S1
Speaker 1
04:46
I can't really say his name because then it wouldn't be a surprise, but a really interesting discussion on the interface between safety and kind of mental health, which has become a giant, giant issue. So I don't know if you guys followed it too closely. My guess is you have, but the, the, the, it's not the winner, cause this is not something you want to win in, but the, the category of work right now that has the highest level of suicide is construction. And, and that's just a very interesting thing to me.S1
Speaker 1
05:23
So I've become really fixated on that connection between mental health and safety, because I think it plays. I've kind of purposely shied away from it because I don't know very much about it. And because I don't know much about it, I thought I should probably contact somebody who knows a lot about it. And kind of like we did with you, Jennifer, in accountability and just get smarter on it.S1
Speaker 1
05:44
And So I know that surprise is there, but I'll hold back on who's going to actually be doing it as well. But it looks like a pretty good crowd. So the layout of the workshop will be, there'll be a full fundamentals, kind of a, don't we call it sort of a deep dive fundamentals, which kind of builds language and fluency and is a really great opportunity. I mean, that's 1 of the things about this conference.S1
Speaker 1
06:08
Well, there's 2 things about this conference I really like, it's in Santa Fe. So that part's super great because I live here. So I like that a lot. And secondly, is that it's a really good entry point for organizations who are interested in maybe looking differently at how they manage reliable and resilient operations.S1
Speaker 1
06:29
It's also kind of designed to take people from the beginning. So it's not like an advanced class. Like the thing that I find most offensive in the whole world is people who call their workshops master classes. I don't know why that offends me.S1
Speaker 1
06:45
I mean, anyone else? Does that hurt you?S3
Speaker 3
06:48
Yeah, because you can't master anything in 5 days.S1
Speaker 1
06:51
That's true. And I'm pretty sure this is a topic that's beyond mastery. But I don't know.S1
Speaker 1
06:57
But anyway, so it's not a master class. It's actually quite the opposite. It's a great place if you wanted to bring your boss or your CEO or the people who make decisions or people who are freaked out or people who are worried, especially now as uncertainty increases politically on the globe, which that might be the biggest understatement I've ever said, but as uncertainty increases politically around the globe, it's really having some impact operationally on how people are working and the need to get smarter, the need to learn is ever so strong. So that's a big part of what we wanna talk about and what we wanna do.S1
Speaker 1
07:38
Anything I'm missing? What am I missing, Jay?S2
Speaker 2
07:41
You are missing that there, you know, last time we had the opportunity of talking about what your favorite eateries are. I think that's gonna be important for people to know because they're always going to know where you're actually eating. And then bike trails, bike trails, bike trails, trike trails, we have to talk about all your biking stuff.S1
Speaker 1
07:55
Yes, there's plenty of bike availability, that's for sure. And there will be bike rides because why not? As far as food goes, you about can't go wrong.S1
Speaker 1
08:04
I mean, it's, it's, there's excellent places and down in that part of town, especially during that week. So the week that conference is, is the week right around a big festival they call wine and chili. And so there's gonna be a lot of extra culinary delights available at pretty much any restaurant in town, because they're all kind of showing off because that's when they make all their big decisions. So That'll be cool as well.S1
Speaker 1
08:31
Plus I can guarantee it's gonna be pretty fun. We're gonna have a good time. So that's pretty much what happens. Jay, how do they contact you?S1
Speaker 1
08:38
How do they go? How do they get to be a part of this? Cause we don't have a lot of open space. Yeah, do we?S2
Speaker 2
08:45
No, we don't. So if they're interested in finding out more information, all they have to do is go to the website at safetyfm.io. That's safetyfm.io.S2
Speaker 2
08:54
And that will give them the information, the dates and the ticket availability right there.S1
Speaker 1
08:59
Jennifer, anything else?S3
Speaker 3
09:00
No, I am super psyched to be there and ride my bike and drink wine and eat chili. And I canS1
Speaker 1
09:06
do that for you. That I can do. That's completely doable.S1
Speaker 1
09:10
Well, you guys, thank you so much. It was so fun to have you on the pod.S3
Speaker 3
09:15
Absolutely. Anytime.S1
Speaker 1
09:16
My pleasure. Until then, learn something new every single day. Have as much fun as you possibly can.S1
Speaker 1
09:20
Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and for goodness sakes, be safe.S2
Speaker 2
09:28
Okay, so that's gonna sum it up for today. I hope you enjoyed this little small episode, but hey, it has a lot of information of the conference that is coming up September the 10th through the 12th the Conklin conference in Santa Fe, New Mexico We'd love to see you there to find out more information. All you have to do is go to safety FM dot I Oh that safety FM Dot I Oh, Thanks for hanging out with us.S2
Speaker 2
09:50
I've been your safety manager and host Jay Allen. And until next time, be safe.S4
Speaker 4
09:59
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information.S4
Speaker 4
10:19
Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, mechanical, electronic, recording, or otherwise without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, Jay Allen.
Safety FM.com with Jay Allen. Changing safety cultures, 1 broadcast and 1 podcast at a time.
So Murray, we just finished. We heard you did Jay. Energy Safety Canada 2024. And this is the last stint as the CEO. How did
you feel it went? I think this went incredible. The team did such a phenomenal job. I told them last year they did an incredible job and they said they're gonna have a heck of a time beating that and I can quite frankly they've done it they've done a tremendous job it was great call well with it being a great conference I've had a
conversation with several of your staff members and in talking to them they have told me several different things when it comes to your leadership. You're a true leader, innovator, visionary. This is what your staff says about you. And it wasn't that they knew I was ever going to use any of this information, but this is the thought process of what they have. They're here to make sure that you're successful in what you're doing. How does that make you feel like
a leader? Well that's a pretty positive response but you can only do those things and be thought of that way if you've got an incredible team that's actually delivering it.
Well your team, I'll say they're first class. I mean and I'm not saying that because we're here I've had the privilege to interact with a whole bunch of different people and When I look back and I look at what you guys do here to energy safety Canada I'm just amazed in regards of interacting with Amy, interacting with Gord, just the information and how things are structured and done and planned out. I'm just amazed. Here's all the sound effects that you wanted. But It's dealing with the leadership that you've established and the team that you've built. And
you've done this over the 7 year timeframe that you've been involved here. How did you do this?
I'm the kind of leader, there's a few things I believe in. There's nothing in this organization I won't do if I'm capable of doing it. So if it means the first thing in the morning before anyone's there, picking up some of the garbage that's in front of our office before the students come in the door right through to whatever needs to get done, I believe in the leadership by small actions. I also believe in heads up and hands off. I don't micromanage, I make sure I've got good people, they know what they're doing, and they engage
me when they need me. And then it's hands off.
So you let your team do what they need to do and you assist when needed, need assistance, but you try to be a behind the scenes guy. Is that a fair assessment?
It's fair, but I'm also out there outside the company a lot, a lot doing things and engaging to people. They know what we do, why we're doing it. So there's always a sort of a balance between inside and outside. So for some for some of the listeners
that might not be familiar with what Energy Safety Canada does, Can you go give them a little bit of an example of what you guys do as an organization?
Happy to, Jay. So Energy Safety Canada is the national health and safety association for the energy business in Canada. Primarily oil and gas, but a lot of the related industries as well. We're a not-for-profit charity and we've been around for over 75 years.
And you've been putting on a versionality of a conference as an organization for 72, based on what you were telling me last night.
This is the second 72nd year. The only years it didn't happen was during COVID.
But just just the forward thinking of even back then when you were approached and said, hey, we're interested in you becoming the CEO of this charity. What are you thinking at the time, especially coming 31 years out of the oil and the oil and gas field.
I had the advantage of having been on the board of 1 of the precursor organizations, the merge to create this organization, so I knew what it was about. I'd also spent a, you know, over 3 decade career with a major company, had a really, really focused on safety, but you're doing it within the realm of sort of your own sphere of influence within the company and your contractors, became very clear to me, because I also was engaged with a lot of industry associations where you're collaborating across industry to improve things. That if we're going to make
the safety the best it can be, that needed to be strong collaboration across industry. So it was just perfect sort of timing. That this opportunity was here, I was kind of finishing what I was doing in Canada. So it just was just the right thing.
And it's been an incredible run, this organization. So you do 31 years, very well known oil and gas industry or company, better saying. You come over here. We'll say that you retired out of there. You come here, you work here.
I retired for 15 hours.
Before you took it over. So then you come here. You've been here for the last 7 things have definitely changed for what was going on. You were, we'll say you're retiring again, but you're really going, going to work for Miss Elliot. So what do you, as you look back at, we'll see the twilight of your career.
What are you thinking? I'm, I'm just so impressed with what we as an organization have done. We've really kind of grown as an organization from, you know, doing training and some industry support to, we do the core training, but we're also delivering so much more. We're delivering lots around collaborations, best practice and guidelines. But what I'm probably most proud of is the work we've done to bring innovative thinking for around the world to help our industry improve and specifically human and organizational performance, high reliability organizations, some of those thinking and really fostering that by putting communities
of practice and having companies come together and individuals who are specialists in this to share and learn from each other. And as I look at it
as what you're doing as an organization when it comes to the HRO stuff and the HOP stuff, in particular, you're really leading Canada in regards to where they need to look, what they need to be focusing on. I was sitting here yesterday doing an interview, and somebody was talking about psychological safety and they said look at this particular room there was about 300 people in the room at the time 295 people raised their hand knowing and hearing the term of psychological safety and I can tell you I've been to conferences where people are go I have
no idea what you're talking about. So this forward thing that has been put into place by your organization Or the how would they know where to look? It's 1 of these things that they really have the heartbeat of what's going on in the industry How does this happen?
Is this planned? It's very very much planned Jay. So we it was actually part of the strategy that I got that had been put together in 2015-16 and I didn't come in until 70. There was a strategy put together by board and a group of executives, really looking where do we need it to go. And 1 of those elements within the strategy was to really create that safety center of excellence. And by that, it's kind of looking for those best practices, helping industry companies find what they need and go out and look for it. And so
we created what we call the Safety Center of Excellence, which means there's only 1 employee and it Gordon Walsh is someone that you know well, But it's also a lens that we look at a lot of our activities on. It's not just the 1 individual. A lot of people are engaged in that. And that's really about finding those best practices and thinking forward and getting some of the thought leaders globally to help us to understand. And also some of the companies, both large and small, that are really leaders in this space.
So as you look at this and you go back to walking in in 2017, why is the thought process not at the time to go with something like behavior-based because it's still relatively possible or not popular at that time better saying in regards of what is going on in the industry so why not go with that approach opposed to human organizational performance.
So I've been a vice president health and safety at a major company and so I'd seen all these practices and things. I'd seen everything but what I actually started my career in was a process engineer looking doing safeguarding has ops and even got into quantitative risk assessment on 1 particular project and you really from that perspective you're looking at you're trying to reduce risk to as minimum as acceptable, but you're never eliminating it. And part of the personal safety journey is all about all this sort of stuff on 0. The organization was it I was with
I was all about 0 and things that it really never sat with me well, because you're only you can only reduce risk to what's reasonably practicable, right? It's never 0. And so when I started my personal journey on a reading cop, probably 15, 16, and a lot of Todd Conklin stuff, because he's the 1 who really made it accessible.
Baby food is decker putzing.
Baby food, but you need that in order to get people interested and so they can then go deeper into it. So that I was really interested in that. And that's where I wanted us to learn more, me to learn more and others to learn more. And as we learn more, we learn more about Amy Edmondson's work on psychological safety. It was just obvious that this is where it was. And we were working with some big companies. I said big companies and small companies had also come to that conclusion. And it was working.
As you're able to do this and serve different companies that are out throughout Canada, how does the process go? So if somebody's saying, okay, we have a need inside of our organization, how does that, how does that move forward?
How do they contact you? How do they, how are they able to be part of lots of different ways? So we have an industry development, a support group that has, individuals or they're tied to each different sector of our industries. And they're there to answer anyone's questions and put resources together. We've done a number of, from 1 hour to 1 day workshops, just to give people the basics and get them sort of interested in understanding. A lot of the large organizations we work with have internal capability or bringing in external consultants, but when they're contractors and
subcontractors, kind of hearing bits and pieces of it, that's where it's most fruitful for us to kind of come in and help fill in the gaps and have them understand that this isn't just a flavor of the month safety program but actually a different philosophy.
But when you would also almost when you look back and take a look at this you have to realize the influence that you're having not just in the industry but all over Canada just by the work that you're doing. It's not an ego moment but it's almost a humbling moment on how you're able to have influence within this particular industry and how to have that influence. So How do you sleep with that kind of pressure at night?
I'm just pleased by it. Like, you know, we're getting regulators that are actually really getting interested in this and recognizing that where their role is in accepting that error is normal and looking at things differently. We're you know we're we're working with a lot of companies outside our traditional bounds into manufacturing and things because this is the place they can come to find the community of practice, find the others that are doing it. So we are not experts in any of these fields where we are experts is in bringing people together, leading the collaboration, getting people
to find other like-minded people to turn and grow with.
Well, And I've been amazed because I've been looking at the different sessions when you had the concurred sessions going on at the same time. Fine. There's a little bit of everything here. There was 2 young gentlemen that were down the hallway and they were talking about leadership from their particular aspect of being out in the field. There was a gentleman here that was talking about that he's a behavior, he's a behaviorless, this is what he said that he was, but he was trying to how to operationalize hop. So even though you're going with subject matters related
to hop, it's not limited to 1 thing. So how does this mindset come about of this is how we're going to do it and you're opening the door to so many things and there's not the limitation because I've been to conferences where it's this is the only subject matter we're not touching anything else. Why be so open and be so willing and to some extent vulnerable and being able to do it.
It's really about there's so many facets of where we need to improve or how we can improve. This is about expanding people's thought processes, mindsets, and we carefully curate, well, we, meaning Amy Krueger, as you know, along with Gordon Walls, very carefully curate the... Great bat networks. I carry the third word. Very carefully curate the speakers and the content to really speak to a really broad audience that we have and really be, I think, quite impactful. In this particular conference,
there was a lot of reference into some big plane accidents that occurred. I'll word it that way, just to be on the safe side. Was there an intentional focus on this? Or just kind of just work out in that format? Because there was 2 pretty big presenters that talked about this in very good detail, in very great detail.
Yeah, it wasn't so much intentional as it's certainly been recent topical and it's a way to look at sort of systemic and detailed failures from a different lens. So you're not looking at your own industry, you're looking outside, but you're looking at something that, you know, when you reflect on the same systemic drivers of, you know, what leaders want and kind of how that changes all the way down through the organization, right through to the ongoing operating pressures at the bottom line. So it was a good way to kind of get people thinking about, and once
they reflect on just how does this apply to their organizations.
So there was a particular plane that there was a reference during this during the last session. Are you reconsidering any flying any time in the near future? I don't have any
flights booked, but they will certainly come into my planning. So give
me the thought process here. We'll say you're a few months out in regards of retiring. What happens the first day of retirement? What's the plan? Are you gonna be okay retiring? I mean you said last time it only lasted about 15 hours so... Well that was a
plan, 15 hours. I've been planning to do this, this is well thought out. I don't have sort of a day 1, day 2 plan, but I just have enough that I have to do that I am quite confident I will not be bored. Will you miss it? Well, of course I'll miss it. You'll miss any change, you'll miss things. And this, as you've seen, is a phenomenal team, so they're great to work with. So I'll miss that. So you know, the phone calls will continue, I imagine, for a period of time. And they're welcome too. More
than happy to share anything I know.
So if people want to find out more information about you before, before time is set and done, what can they do?
Reach out to me. I'm, I'm on LinkedIn and I'm only a phone call away email away. Murray. I really do appreciate you coming on today. Thank you very much. Thank you.
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information. Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any
means mechanical, electronic, recording, or otherwise without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, J. Allen.
Speaker 100:03This is it. This show is brought to you by safety FM. Okay, we are broadcasting live from Energy Safety Canada in Banff. And like we have done a couple of times here, directly off the stage, directly off the stage.S1
Speaker 1
00:19
Taylor and Michael, you're here. And titling is so important. Wording is so important. I have to know right off the bat, people don't suck.S1
Speaker 1
00:29
Looking at hop through a leadership lens, How did you come up with the title?S2
Speaker 2
00:34
It was for quite a journey and then we were just talking about people so much and that's our belief. And it was 1 random day that I was like, hey people don't suck. And then we just know it's a great hook because every time we talk about it it's always like but they doS1
Speaker 1
00:52
so let me ask you can you pull the microphone up just a little bit a little bit higher this way we can get you a little bit clear and now let me let me ask you a question here Can you give a brief overview of what the speech was because there are going to be some people listening that were not here of course just to get kind of just a little bit of the flavouring and then we'll go into some details.S3
Speaker 3
01:10
The bigger flavouring is we talked a little bit about human operationalized performance through like a leadership lens. So the big thing that we talk about is obviously labels and labeling bias. The story that we tell is about somebody who was thought to have seen to have a performance issue, but after you really look at it, it was more of just an emotional view that somebody had towards this person.S3
Speaker 3
01:36
So we really just try to share a story about checking emotion and recognizing whether it's actually factual or it's just coming from an emotional place.S1
Speaker 1
01:46
Diller, what do you think there?S2
Speaker 2
01:47
And then we also layer in the human performance concepts. So the number 1, if people don't, people make mistakes. And if you tie that into how we're approaching individuals within our organization, it's an attitude that we have to really take and own before we make any decisions within our organizations.S1
Speaker 1
02:07
So let me just ask the strange question. Is this the first time that you guys are presented at a conference?S2
Speaker 2
02:12
Yep. Yes.S1
Speaker 1
02:14
Okay. So I'm not blowing smoke, so let's talk here. You guys had a line waiting for people to talk to you post-event in regards of the presentation that you did. Now let's not talk about ego, because that's easy to get into, but people really wanted to know what you guys were talking about.S1
Speaker 1
02:32
So general consensus, apparently you're hitting the market right with this information. So when you set back and started developing this, what was the standpoint of what you were trying to accomplish? And whoever wants to take it.S3
Speaker 3
02:44
I like, I can talk to that sure. So like when we sat back and developed it, we didn't actually know we were developing it. What we really focused on was leadership and leadership development, and in that, it's just like we believe in developing people.S3
Speaker 3
02:58
So through our journey, all we've really focused on is trying to develop people and then as we've shared our stories with others we we shared it with our our she group so like our safety team and they were like this is human performance and we're like oh tell us more so they they really helped us connect the dots between like what we were doing and how it aligns with human performance.S1
Speaker 1
03:21
So when you started looking at this and Taylor when you started looking at it and you realized that it was aligning with human performance what was the general conception? Did you think that you had hit something that you didn't realize that it was there or how did it come about?S2
Speaker 2
03:33
Yeah, for sure. As we started dealing with problems within our teams, Mike and I working together, we started using different leadership concepts and spending time with the leaders within our team to teach it to them. And then it hit us 1 day, it was like we need to start documenting this, we need to start tracking all the work we're doing.S2
Speaker 2
03:53
And as we started tracking the work we're doing, we had a 1 note with 8 or 10 items and it blew up. I mean, because once you start in opening up conversation within your organization, it blows up and it starts in changing that, hey, embracing that red, looking at the problems and it develops that internally of each person within the team of like we're comfortable with the fact there's problems and we're comfortable the fact that we're just going to be constantly dealing with the problems. That's why we believe we have a job is to be working on those problems.S1
Speaker 1
04:24
But as you take a look at this, I mean, whoever wants to answer, you all of a sudden start developing this, you start talking about it, you do this on a 1 note and all of a sudden it blows up that way, do you know that you hit the correct nerve within the organization and did you think that it was just the organization or did you think it was going to go as wide as it has so far? Because we set it up just kind of at a long table a few nights ago, and you guys were talking, and I was like, how are you talking about this stuff that people that are in their 50s and their 60s are normally talking about? And you guys are relatively young compared to most people that are talking about leadership.S3
Speaker 3
04:59
So, Like me and Taylor have a big passion of leadership. We spend a ton of time reading books researching it and like We also teach this but like we believe leadership is a learned skill a lot of people say leadership is a boring skill But we think it's like if you were exposed to leadership at a young age Maybe on a sports team parents held a leadership position Whatever that may be so like for us we had this opportunity to take all this knowledge that we had and then when we started working together it was like we can put this in the practice and see what it does because as you say like an academic they talk and they have all these things but it's like we were able to collectively take the stuff that we've read talk about it to each other of how we interpreted it and then go to work hopefully that answersS1
Speaker 1
05:44
the question I know it no it does answer the question but I look at it too from the standpoint of on the way that you're able to bring this up, talk about it and move forward with the information. And I'm not going to pick on academics because technically I have to say that I'm part of that category. But I look at it and I go the way that you've been able to develop this from the ground up If I can say it that way and I know she said hey Keep in mind of people doing sporting events and moving forward in regards starting it from from a from a younger age But there's more than just that and reading books.S1
Speaker 1
06:17
I mean, you guys must have sat there and had a pretty, pretty descriptive discussion in regards to how this is going to move. At least, I mean, I'm making some assume some assumption to.S2
Speaker 2
06:26
In the last, I'd say 3 to 4 years, Mike and I have been collaborating like in great detail. But prior to that it's just a true belief that we individually had and then when we started working together on our teams we started recognizing that it's like whoa what happens when we start working together on this and then yes Jay over the last couple years we've spent a lot of time actually putting the work into this space, for sure.S1
Speaker 1
06:53
So I guess let me ask the question, and let me make sure that I make it fully aware. Nobody's listening, so it's just you 2 and me sitting here. What's the big plan?S1
Speaker 1
07:02
I mean do you have ideas to take this outside of your organization? Are we allowed to, am I allowed to ask that question? Because nobody else is listening, I mean just keep that in mind.S3
Speaker 3
07:12
Honestly like I think me and Taylor the 1 thing we've really talked about is like how do we make it bigger? Because honestly we believe in it so deeply, it's like how do we influence the most amount of people? So we wanna make it as big as we can.S3
Speaker 3
07:25
I don't know exactly what that looks like right now, but obviously through meeting you and relationships, I think we're going to find out very soon what that means for us.S2
Speaker 2
07:34
Our plan is to continue telling our story. Over the last year, Mike and I have started collaborating to write the book, People Don't Suck. We're working on that right now.S2
Speaker 2
07:45
Our goal is to continue to talk to whoever wants to listen to the story and just get it out there.S1
Speaker 1
07:51
So I have to ask the question because, you know, when we start talking about other aspects of being able to do, when you start looking at things that you've done while you're moonlighting, is your company gonna say anything about this? Because, I mean, it's your development, it's your book.S2
Speaker 2
08:09
We've actually worked with the company on it to ensure that we have the legalities all covered and ensure that it's doneS1
Speaker 1
08:16
properly. I mean, you're at the very beginning stage, so I have to ask the question. Yeah like I said no one's listening so we're good.S2
Speaker 2
08:23
Yeah we're very open people not only with people we talk to but also with our company as well So sure that we're getting it right.S1
Speaker 1
08:31
So when you're looking at doing this book concept, so how long are you thinking, where are you? What's the date? What's the timeline?S2
Speaker 2
08:39
What do you have? The goal would be inside of this year now to have it completely.S1
Speaker 1
08:42
Okay, so let's look at this. We're now talking May the 2nd, So the pressure is on. I mean, and I have it in a recording now that took giving dates.S3
Speaker 3
08:51
I don't know if that's a good thing.S1
Speaker 1
08:52
I think you were aware that Mike looked directly away the moment that I said the date, like I disappeared the moment that he thought of that. He looked away. You know, I'm still here.S3
Speaker 3
09:01
Pressure makes diamonds. So really, yeah, it's good.S1
Speaker 1
09:04
So here's the thing. I mean, as you went through this and you're going through this information of leadership, I would almost imagine to an extent, depending on what people are looking for, the book could lead to a workshop.S3
Speaker 3
09:18
100%.S1
Speaker 1
09:19
And I mean, and that's the thought process and depending on how you have it developed. And I think that it's a blessing that you're, I'm not going to name your company because I think that's kind of weird because neither of you mentioned it, so I'll leave it out there. That it's the company that has you, it's a blessing that you'reS2
Speaker 2
09:35
thereS1
Speaker 1
09:35
for them in regards of what you're developing and the people are able to actually to learn from you. But I think that if you're able to do the conference circuits in regards of sharing this information, you're really gonna get further ahead in regards to being able to help people. Because I think that when you put the lens of hop into this, that's what we're here for.S1
Speaker 1
09:56
It's to build the community of practice to help lead forward. So will this be something that's allowed to do? I mean, in regards to, is it something that you're even interested in, in going into different conferences?S2
Speaker 2
10:09
I, I believe so. Right now, like we, we went through very rigorous approvals to be able to come to here speak here right now and we haven't seen very much resistance from our organization to stop that right yet so we're gonna continue as much as we can.S1
Speaker 1
10:28
Well I know the person that you report to and I've known her for some time but I won't mention names. I won't mention names.S3
Speaker 3
10:35
Yeah. No, I think there is full support from them obviously like we're here right now or here at this 1 so and I think they're pushing big time to have us again here next year.S2
Speaker 2
10:43
We know what our goals are for next year at this conference.S1
Speaker 1
10:46
Well, I mean and think about this. You were, you're in 1 of the ballrooms. Let's talk about it.S1
Speaker 1
10:53
Based on what people are saying is just as you've walked out You know that you're gonna be moved to a different ball Just kind of the way that I look at it, so what are you looking at in regards to processing forward? So you have the book, you have the potential conferences in regards of actually moving forward with. How do you look at it of what other things you're going to be able to do with us?S3
Speaker 3
11:16
Well, we had a couple of gentlemen from Energy Safety Canada reach out to us. It sounds like they have some shorts that they film. I think we're going to be reaching back to them and hopefully being able to participate in a couple of those.S3
Speaker 3
11:28
And then honestly, just any opportunities that were afforded through people that we know. We're fortunate enough to have a pretty strong team behind us, I would say in the background that's helping us be available to come to these things. So just look forward to see what they got for us next really.S1
Speaker 1
11:44
And what are you looking at?S2
Speaker 2
11:46
I'll be honest with you like...S1
Speaker 1
11:48
So you weren't being honest before, okay, you're making this... Oh you weren't? Okay.S2
Speaker 2
11:56
We're at a safety conference right now and Mike and I are operations and our focus is constantly on leadership development so we believe our message can speak to a number of different audiences and eventually it's the branch out into the leadership world as well and the development in that area and combining it with safety because we do believe it's super interesting I believe HOP is on this journey right now of bringing that leadership connection to safety and that's where we're actually wanting to get to see it all come together right at the work front.S1
Speaker 1
12:34
So as you as you do mention that and you mentioned that you're both in operations you're not we'll say not you know safety department because you're still involved with safety even in the operation side. Is it a shock that you were invited to Energy Safety Canada for this? I didn't say so.S1
Speaker 1
12:50
And how did that process even occur? Because this is not an easy thing for somebody to say, hey, we want you to present.S2
Speaker 2
12:57
It was a shock.S3
Speaker 3
12:58
It was definitely a shock. But as I mentioned, so we've given this presentation before to some different teams and 1 was our she group and they were like, we've been to Energy Safety Canada, we've heard a ton of academics speak and they're like, the layer that's missing is people in operations and we want you there. And the big push really came from them like we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them and I owe all the thanks to them for making it happen and it's just neat because what they did was connect the leadership things that we were doing to human performance and And I really believe every leadership concept, all human performance, it's all intertwined.S3
Speaker 3
13:35
You can't have 1 without the other. I mean you can talk about sharp end of the stick in human performance, which is servant leadership. It's the same thing, different title.S1
Speaker 1
13:45
Well, it's funny that you mentioned that because that term servant leadership, if you would have said this a few years ago, people would have not taken that very well. I remember there was a gentleman that I was interacting with and he had a concept that he wanted to talk about servant leadership and people did not like that. They did not like the terminology.S1
Speaker 1
14:02
I mean, and sometimes I think we're kind of hypersensitive when it comes to terms. So when you notice that you were going into the servant leadership side, when you notice that you were doing all these things that people were more and more interested, did you know that that's what you were that you were going to call it? Or was it something that you said, we can blend it into something else but we're not going to title it servant leadership but now we're at the standpoint where you can.S2
Speaker 2
14:25
I believe we knew that we were talking about servant leadership from the beginning. We did not fully understand how it aligned with Hop. Sharpening the stick and how we tied that together here right now, no, we did not recognize that at all.S2
Speaker 2
14:40
It was kind of through our journey that we made those connections. But it's just incredible to see how HOP is actually just a leadership tool. Absolutely.S3
Speaker 3
14:52
Yeah, if it wasn't for our safety team, we wouldn't have made that connection. We would have just still been talking leadership. But again, the more you can intertwine it, the better it gets, right?S3
Speaker 3
15:03
It just, you can speak to more people.S1
Speaker 1
15:06
Okay, well Mike and Taylor, I appreciate you guys coming by. I know that lunch ends in like 13 minutes, I don't want to hold you too long. If people want to find out more information of what you guys have going on, Is there somewhere they can go currently to find out more information?S3
Speaker 3
15:18
I believe all this is on the Energy Safety Canada website. We do the community practices with Energy Safety Canada. We've done 1.S3
Speaker 3
15:25
I'm assuming we're gonna do a couple more. Like I said, there should be some shorts coming out. Both me and Taylor have LinkedIn. We always like hearing from people, hearing about your experiences, love questions, helps us learn too, so look us up and yeah, thanksS1
Speaker 1
15:39
Jay. Okay, well thanks for coming on, I really do appreciateS2
Speaker 2
15:42
it. Thank you Jay.S4
Speaker 4
15:46
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information.S4
Speaker 4
16:05
Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means, mechanical, mechanical, electronic, recording, or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, Jay Allen.
Speaker 100:04This show is brought to you by Safety FM. Okay, we are coming to you live from Energy Safety Canada in good old Banff. And as we are hanging out today, Dr. Nick, how are you?S1
Speaker 1
00:17
Doing well. You can pull the microphone closer to you if you need to. No problem. You just legitimately came off the stage.S1
Speaker 1
00:24
I mean, it's not fair for me to grab people to do this, but how'd it go?S2
Speaker 2
00:29
Oh, wow. That was good. It was my first time here and good crowd, good discussions and happy to be able to come sit at the big kids table and talk to youS1
Speaker 1
00:40
for a little bit. So let me ask, let me answer a strange question. Do you, I don't wanna say do you feel out of your element but you're talking a little bit about behavior-based safety and you are aware there's a whole bunch of hop aficionados around here so how's it going because I because there's I'm not gonna say the rub but there's people are like hold on there's a behaviorist guy Why is he at a Hop Conference?S1
Speaker 1
01:03
I didn't even know this was a Hop Conference. I didn't know there were people talking about Hop. I didn't know there were some limitations here.S2
Speaker 2
01:10
Well, I guess we'll see because, like you said, I just got done and you escorted me here. So, you know, maybe everybody likes you. Maybe I didn't get tackled because, but no, that was, you know, that was kind of the fun thing.S2
Speaker 2
01:23
You know, I had spoken with Gordon Walsh and some other folks about doing a kind of actionable talk about hop and you know my intent was that I'm just the lowly behavior guy. You know and the thing is I don't really, I don't disagree with some of the pushback on the way people talk about applied behavior science or whatnot, but my whole thing is I'm a scientist. I have a line of research and behavior analysis, I'm a consultant and a coach, and I've been an academic unit head. But people take the science, and then they build IP around it.S2
Speaker 2
02:11
And then they'll kind of market it as ABS or behavior-based safety. And then someone's like, I don't like this approach. There go I don't like the science. And I was here just to kind of build bridges.S2
Speaker 2
02:22
You know that I'm just a behavior guy. There's behavior in making hop actionable. So let's all work together.S1
Speaker 1
02:30
So let's talk a little bit about that. So the name of the presentation was operationalizing human and organizational performance. Could you give us a quick overview for the people that were not here?S1
Speaker 1
02:40
That way they know exactly what we're talking about, then we can go into going a little bit deeper.S2
Speaker 2
02:43
Yeah, right on. So It really was focused on taking the principles and the philosophy of HOP and identifying the role of human behavior in it and what does it mean to not blame people so on and so forth, and just show that there is a value in an understanding that there's a science behind behavior change, and if you can harness that science, you can maximize the impact of your implementation of Hobb philosophies, and that was kind of the purpose of it.S1
Speaker 1
03:18
So as you decide to do this, I'm sure you spoke with some of your colleagues and you're telling them I'm taking this approach of operationalizing hop which is different than the behavior side. I mean not the operationalizing portion of it. What are they telling you?S1
Speaker 1
03:34
Are they telling you that you're off your rocker in regards to doing this? You're shaking your head yes. Yeah,S2
Speaker 2
03:40
there was a lot of that. You know, there's a, those of us that work a lot in safety, It was, they understood the value just because the hop folks have done such a brilliant job of getting their messaging out there. But there was a little bit of, you're going into the wolves den, there was a little bit of, you know, they don't like you.S1
Speaker 1
04:07
What are you doing going there, dude? So let's talk about that because you're from the same side of the planet that I'm from, so We're down in Florida. You decided to come out here number 1.S1
Speaker 1
04:18
It's freezing which I mean, it's good. It's different When you get here, do you have a level of concern of what you're getting into? And I mean, it's not like somebody's gonna beat you up as I don't care because that sounded extremely wrong But what was what was it? Was there any kind of thought process of, what are you getting yourself into?S2
Speaker 2
04:35
You know, there was, honestly, there was a little of that prior to my starting to go to talks. And that was 1 of my main, other than my talking, 1 of my main goals was I really just wanted to learn perspectives. 1 of the things I talked about in my talk was that there's so much alignment between the fundamental principles of early 20th century behavior analysis and the philosophies of a hop, that there was a common sense alignment there.S2
Speaker 2
05:13
But when I started looking into it more obviously There's a lot of pushback. And then I've been with clients, and I've met with their hop teams, and I've mentioned they will literally, they've literally started the meeting saying, just so you're aware, I'm against everything that you stand for.S1
Speaker 1
05:31
And I was like,S2
Speaker 2
05:32
thanks, right on. And, but then I started going to talks around here, and they're talking about systems and don't blame and getting out in the field and meeting people where they are and all these things that are fundamental principles of that. It's not new in behavior analysis.S2
Speaker 2
05:50
We've been studying this since 1910. So it's, so I was like, these are my people. You know, they just, they don't know it yet, but we're aligned on this.S1
Speaker 1
05:59
Well, I've sat down with Scott Doe, Scott Geller, I've sat down with Tim Ludwig, and they have all given me a perspective at some point or another where they believe that hop did come out of behavior-based safety. Now there are arguments on how did that, how did they come up with that association, How did they come up with that idea? When you look at this, because you're going around speaking about this, and we'll say it a quote unquote, hop conference, even though that's not how I see it.S1
Speaker 1
06:26
What are the things that you see that are similar that you said, okay, I can draw, not really a line in the sand, but you can have a conversation where you go, look at this and look at this and how they're able to, quote unquote, tie together.S2
Speaker 2
06:39
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. So 1 of the first things that we're taught in behavior analysis, so my undergraduate, master's and PhD is all in behavior analysis applied to systems and safety and leadership and training. So 1 of the first fundamental, this is before I knew about HOP, 1 of the first fundamental things, and again this goes back to early 20th century, is you don't blame the victim.S2
Speaker 2
07:09
It's in our textbooks, we're forced to memorize definitions based on that, you know, it's the whole thing. And then it's, we have a thing in behavior analysis called, you know, functional assessment to performance diagnostics, which just means that you have, every behavior has a function. There's a reason for the behavior. You have to understand what is causing the behavior in order for you to select a solution for it.S2
Speaker 2
07:30
It's a function-based management intervention. So you have to understand the context. The environment is responsible for behavior change. Another big area is behavioral systems analysis, which is a huge area of behavior analysis, and it's understanding systems and how systems are interconnected across organizational process and performer levels.S2
Speaker 2
07:52
And so when I started seeing HOP, and it was, all right, you don't blame, you focus on the system, a big area of behavior analysis is goal setting. You don't just randomly say 0, 0 incidents. You say, all right, well, what is your current baseline level of performance and select reasonable goals? So when I started learning about HOP, I was like, it's right up my alley, you know, and then and I had mentioned in my talk That I made the mistake of googling hop and ABS and then right that was bad idea And And I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute, they're not as on board as I thought they would be on board.S2
Speaker 2
08:37
So then, but again, come up here, seek to understand. But that's why I see the alignment. Well,S1
Speaker 1
08:43
and I'll mention the firm by name, but Aubrey Daniels actually goes around and they teach a version of hop and as our people are fully aware There are very heavily driven behavior based Behavior based safety system and a lot of people have accused them of really doing hop light with behavior based safety When you look at some of the different approaches, do you think that we have it wrong? Do you think that we need to really lean towards the behavior side and tie in some hop elements onto it? So let's say behavior-based safety and then have hop as a bolt on, if that makes sense?S2
Speaker 2
09:16
Yeah, andS1
Speaker 1
09:17
I used to- In its opinion, I'm not asking for data yet. We can always ask data because I know how academics are. It's like, why did you ask me an opinion question?S1
Speaker 1
09:26
We talk about factuals.S2
Speaker 2
09:27
No, I've got tons of opinions, a lot easier for me with opinions. And I used to work for Aubrey Daniels.S1
Speaker 1
09:34
I'm not trying to cause controversy. No, no, you're good. I just said it by remembering an interview.S1
Speaker 1
09:39
I justS2
Speaker 2
09:39
want full disclosure. But it's 1 of those things where as a behavior analyst, sometimes there is a hubris that we're the experts in behavior, so we got it. We got everything.S2
Speaker 2
09:59
Everything comes from us and so on and so forth. My favorite type of behavior analyst is the person who doesn't know that they're using the science of behavior. The video game industry, multibillion dollar industry, They're using behavioral principles. They found that on their own co-author of Book that I wrote deliberate coaching Paul.S2
Speaker 2
10:23
Gimani. He is a He found he found value in supporting people and using behavioral principles without knowing that he was using behavioral principles. And I love that. So that's why it's...S2
Speaker 2
10:38
I'm all about collaboration. The IO psychologists have their role in the systems. The HR has their role in the systems. Whenever it gets down to, all right, at some point there's a metric, we can link behavior, let's look at variables.S2
Speaker 2
10:57
Well, that's my area of expertise. But there are people that come in at a higher level than the system to embed philosophies and groundwork. So my whole thing is we all have a role that we're working together. So I don't view it as necessarily that they got their stuff from us because I'm not to the point that I think, number 1, our stuff isn't easily accessible, and number 2, I'm not so arrogant to think that they can't build things about behavior science without accessing all of our stuff.S2
Speaker 2
11:31
You know, they found it in the same way where it's my thing is we talk about strategy implementation and we will take your philosophy and strategies and we'll just get people to put it into action. So that's why it's I don't think that I conflict because I'm just the behavior guy. That's all I'm here forS1
Speaker 1
11:53
So when you look at this you mean part of the answer that she gave you thought talked about philosophies inside a system Do you think that it's something that's needed? Do you think philosophies need to be put into systems? Once again, not data driven, opinion brushing.S2
Speaker 2
12:07
You know, from a, you know, just to not to nerd out too much, you know, but the, you know, I talk about that, you know, you throw a ball in the air it comes down because of gravity laws laws of physics if you see behavior occurring regardless of whether it's occurring under a you know operational discipline standpoint or a hop standpoint so on and forth so and so forth it's still occurring because of the same laws of behavior. There are things that come before behavior that are setting that behavior up, and whether that behavior continues is based on what happens during and after the behavior. Good things happen, the behavior continues.S2
Speaker 2
12:45
Bad things happen, behavior goes away. Simple, simple subtlety of behavior science. So rules and core values and philosophies are important as antecedents, as prompts to set behavior up. The problem is if you stop there and you don't support those behaviors on the job, that's where things fall apart.S2
Speaker 2
13:10
So it's necessary, but it's just again it's behavior science 101. If you only focus on what happens before behavior, the philosophies, replicably, demonstrably, controllably, those behaviors will go away because science tells me so.S1
Speaker 1
13:28
So I look at it and I go, there's so many things to unpack on that particular answer. So as you're sitting here and you're coming up with it and you talk about the antecedents, can you go into a little bit more detail about that?S2
Speaker 2
13:37
Yeah, so we talk about, and there was a good question after the talk about, he's saying, his question was about, I don't really dig the notion of like you can't blame somebody. At some point, don't you have to blame somebody? And what we talk about is you first have to set people up for success.S2
Speaker 2
14:03
So the antecedents, the prompts are, all right, processes are in place. Everybody's bringing in new safety processes, safety process person. They have their training works. They have the expectations, have the rules, they have the manuals, they have the tools, so on and so forth.S2
Speaker 2
14:20
So all of those things are set up. What's ignored is now when they're in the field doing it, is there positive feedback when good things happen? Do they see the value in following through with all those things? Because if they don't, they will find their own way to do it.S2
Speaker 2
14:38
People do it, they do it because it works. So we tend to focus all on kind of that antecedent side, the training process side, because you can check that box and be done withS1
Speaker 1
14:46
it.S2
Speaker 2
14:46
And then old man Rutherley comes in there and I say, hey, I want you to actively go out there and coach like all the time. That's how you shape behavior. They're like, dude, that's a lot of work.S2
Speaker 2
14:57
Can I just put them back in the training or get a new safety process in place? Like those are good, but you need both. You need the A's and the C's.S1
Speaker 1
15:07
So when you take a look at it, and there will be people that are out there, so let's say for instance there's a vehicle accident that occurs inside of an organization, where all of a sudden somebody will say, well if you're doing a behavior-based safety rule wise, all of a sudden you're going to bring these people back in, you're going to train them and tell them don't have car accidents and then proceed forward and then if it occurs again, do the training again, but this time maybe a little bit louder. Yeah, exactly. Do you look at it and go there is some truth to it?S1
Speaker 1
15:33
There is not some some true to it or people just have have it incorrect.S2
Speaker 2
15:38
Yeah, it's it's mainly people have it incorrect You know, it's mainly just you know, but it's it just gets back to that why question of I'm going to, but it's the same thing when people talk about leading with writing people up or firing people where it's what we try to, which again is in line with a lot of the talks here, is just stop for a minute. Just stop for a minute and understand what's going on because if not, you know, this is safety. If you just go trial and error, you're literally dealing with lives.S2
Speaker 2
16:08
So if it's, you know, if you have a bad training, but you just do it more, It's still bad. It doesn't fix anything. So it's, you know, can they demonstrate the skills that they want? Yep, they know how to drive.S2
Speaker 2
16:26
All right, right on. So why are you sending them back to there? You know, is it, well, you gave them 15 minutes to do something that takes a half hour. That's why they were reckless.S2
Speaker 2
16:37
All right, we can fix that. Let's work on that. It's just get alignment and understand what's actually causing it. And then if they really do need better training, give them better training, not just this rinse and repeat.S2
Speaker 2
16:49
And then most importantly, when they do what you want, acknowledge that. And not just acknowledge it, you build habits by showing them the value in doing it. It's not just like, hey, you did a good job following X, Y, and Z protocol. Did you get there when you wanted to?S2
Speaker 2
17:04
Yep. Did you get there a little bit faster because you followed what we've been talking about? I actually did. So what did you do differently?S2
Speaker 2
17:11
All right. So now they see the value in doing it. It's not just you blindly telling them to do something and that's where the interactions come in. That's where the coaching interactions come in.S1
Speaker 1
17:20
So let me ask another side of the question here. You've heard a lot this week in regards of Black Line, Blue Line, also referred to as Work Imagine versus Work Performed. Yep.S1
Speaker 1
17:30
How do you think it ties into behavior-based safety?S2
Speaker 2
17:32
Yeah, it's...S1
Speaker 1
17:33
If it does at all,S2
Speaker 2
17:34
of course. Yeah, no. There's sometimes we'll talk about it as like managing by wandering around, you know, and that, you know, the closer you get to the work, the more important those individuals are.S2
Speaker 2
17:49
Those are the people that have the most value in the organization. The frontline workers, the frontline supervisors, so on and so forth. So for example, we go through processes of behavior mapping or reverse engineering, And the idea is, okay, let's see the things you care about, the metrics you care about, so on and so forth. But I want to identify the critical behaviors that people need to engage in to hit those targets.S2
Speaker 2
18:15
There's somebody 10 levels up that are looking at some targets in some room. And the job of working with individual levels of leaders is to help identify those behaviors. So what people will sometimes naturally do is they'll go to a senior manager and say, What are your frontline people supposed to do? I don't care what the senior leaders think they're supposed to do.S2
Speaker 2
18:35
I want to go to the example our frontline people have them tell me what they're supposed to do. That's the process whenever we go through and kind of start an engagement is we don't interview senior leadership on what they're supposed to do, we interview the actual people and what they're supposed to do, because if not that's where you get that disconnect, you know, and everybody has different motivation. The, like the Boeing example, the last conversation, the last talk, where it was if you have people at the top level making decisions on what behaviors they're making decisions for different reasons. People are controlled by their environment.S2
Speaker 2
19:10
The people at the front line actually doing it they're making decisions based on what works for them to get the job done. And those are 2 different things, control and behavior. And I wanna talk to the person who's actually doing it.S1
Speaker 1
19:21
So let me ask the weird question here, because you have the middle manager that plays a factor into the whole thing as well. So the middle manager has a very interesting position, especially when you're talking about these 2 separate ends, because besides that they're there representing the people from the field, they also have to tell the people up top, this is what's going on in the field, and vice versa. When you look at that and you go, okay, we talked black line, blue line, how does this get addressed in a behavior based safety system?S2
Speaker 2
19:52
Yeah, that's a good question. So it's the 1 thing, the reason why we like to work with individual levels of leadership, and we literally will assign people one-on-one coaches, you know, frontline leaders get coaches, second level leaders get coaches, so on and so forth, is because their behavior is controlled by their environment the same way. So 1 thing that we look for is what are their expectations of what they have to report up?S2
Speaker 2
20:24
You know, if you're a mid-manager, what are their expectations and their job responsibilities with their direct reports? And we really actively ensure alignment. And that is that kind of reverse engineering behavior mapping process. So that way it's, alright, you know, multiple different ways of getting results.S2
Speaker 2
20:42
What do your bosses want as admin manager? They want X, Y, and Z. Alright, let's make it as easy as possible for them to see that they can get what they want in a way that is still ethical and safe and productive and supports the most valuable part of any organization which are the people. And if we can make it as easy as possible for them to paint that message, like that's what we focus on.S1
Speaker 1
21:03
Okay, So you probably have heard with some of the sessions about how there's this perception that behaviorists are constantly out seeking for audits and inspections. What's your thought process on that? Or in this 1 I'm almost willing to say what's your data onS2
Speaker 2
21:21
it? Yeah, that's a, yeah, so categorize in 2 different ways. And this is something Aubrey Dandres talks about really well. So We kind of differentiate between coaching to evaluate versus coaching to help.S2
Speaker 2
21:37
If you're just going in there, and this is where when I talk about behavior science, behavior analysis versus somebody who is categorizing certain things as behavior-based safety, which you know they're saying okay it's very audit driven, where it's behavior analysis, the fundamental principles of the science of behavior, are not based on audits. You know just if you just go in and check, you're leading to evaluate somebody. You're not trying to change behavior, you're just leading to mark things off. That is not how you change behavior.S2
Speaker 2
22:08
So we're talking about coaching and leading to help people understand what they're doing and help shape their behavior up so that way we can get systematic and small improvements in performance. If you're just going in and checking the box and walking away, you don't shape behavior that way. And the fundamental, 1 of the big differentiators for a average leader and a great leader is they can shape behavior. They can take where your behavior is currently and they can reinforce incremental improvements in that behavior.S2
Speaker 2
22:39
And you can't do that by evaluating and doing audits. Now, you might need data from someplace on there, but those data are not part of your leadership and coaching plan. You're working with senior leaders on, okay, I'm gonna build a good measurement system and then I will teach you how to use the data. But it is really an anti-audit approach.S1
Speaker 1
23:02
But you hear it all the time that that's not what most people believe is the concept. They believe that you are inspecting the death people in regards of doing audit and near-miss reporting is the other big 1 that you hear about. So when you're addressing it in this particular fashion, I look at it to go, this is a misconception that a lot of people, I mean, this is not the first time, of course, talking about it, but there is a misconception that a lot of people have about behavior-based safety.S2
Speaker 2
23:28
Yeah. And it's not necessarily wrong. There are companies that do that and they do it under the guise of behavior-based safety which is linked to behavior analysis and behavior science. And so a lot of you know just getting back to the kind of the behavior mapping reverse engineering process you know what data do you have that you're looking at?S2
Speaker 2
23:48
And what's important for a C-suite person, different data and outcomes, what they're looking for, mid-manager all the way down. And so then it's okay, so we need to see what's working and what's not. What are ways that we can do this? Okay, what are the easiest ways we can do this?S2
Speaker 2
24:04
And then it's what do you do with those data? And that's where a lot of disconnects come. They'll take those and they'll use the data to punish. And that's 1 of the first fundamental things that we have to work on is you're taking these data And you're not using them correctly.S2
Speaker 2
24:17
You know, there are people doing more good things than bad things. You're supposed to be using data to show the value in what's working. And, you know, so I think that's a disconnect.S1
Speaker 1
24:28
So a couple more questions for you if you don't mind. I know that we're in a limited time of course. So coming out to Energy Safety Canada, you come out here, there was probably already an approach in regards of what people were thinking in regards of once you got here.S1
Speaker 1
24:42
You talked to Gord, Gord says come out here. You look at it and you go, when you know that you're going to draw out your presentation, you're going to go into it, did you make it hop-centric, hop-focused? Or did you go, let me go with what I know and I'll run it through?S2
Speaker 2
24:56
I made it, I wanted to make it as easy as possible to build that bridge, so I did make it more hop focused. I wanted to set the stage of hop as a philosophy without me pretending that I'm an expert because that's why we work in so many different systems. I'm not an expert in your safety programs.S2
Speaker 2
25:18
I'm just here to find the behaviors and help you with those. But I thought that might be a good approach is I can just put it in context and just show the value of the behaviors in there. And then what I just learned so much about this from this conference was that I did put certain things in there where, for example, I'm gonna talk about, what does it actually mean to fix the system? Everyone's gonna be like, oh man, this dude is so enlightened.S2
Speaker 2
25:44
Yeah, he's talking about, I went to so many things where they're talking about what it actually means to fix the system. So I was like, we're all on the same page. But I did put it under that philosophy so I could just, I didn't want to just talk at people about behavior. I wanted to link it to what they know.S1
Speaker 1
25:58
Well I'll tell you, I mean this particular group up here, what they have going on at Energy Safety Canada. They're really far ahead of most of the other organizations that I get to interact with so it's really amazing to see. So, us being from Florida I have to ask what do you think about this venue overall and what Energy Safety Canada is doing?S2
Speaker 2
26:13
Oh it's beautiful. I'm classic tourist mode man. I'm just taking pictures, FaceTime with my daughter and wife just like, oh did you see this and everything and now they want to come up and play in the snow and yeah I love it up here.S2
Speaker 2
26:27
I mean it's a postcard.S1
Speaker 1
26:28
Well I keep on telling people it's the pictures do not do it justice. Yeah. I mean it's not that the pitchers are bad in the first place but once you get here there's something entirely different than any other place that I've been to so I wanted to get your word of you especially going to Florida so if people want to know more about what you have going on, where can they find out more information?S2
Speaker 2
26:47
Yes, you can go to scci.biz. My email is nicw.scci.biz. We also have a podcast called the Behavioral Leadership Podcast.S2
Speaker 2
26:57
So yeah, so reach out to me. Let's connect, be friends.S1
Speaker 1
27:01
Well, I really do appreciate you coming on today.S2
Speaker 2
27:03
Yeah. Thanks again.S3
Speaker 3
27:07
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information.S3
Speaker 3
27:26
Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, mechanical, electronic, recording, or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast. J Allen.
Speaker 200:08Okay, we are broadcasting live because that's what we've been doing this week. Of course, having all kinds of fun times as we are hanging out at Energy Safety Canada in Banff. Yes, you know, that lovely location.S2
Speaker 2
00:21
So let's talk. Sean, directly off the stage, we have you in the chair in front of us, probably 1 of the best presentations I think I've seen in my whole life and I'm not saying that because you're really good.S1
Speaker 1
00:30
Thank you very much,S2
Speaker 2
00:31
Jim. So talk to me because, okay, you covered this very intriguing incident with Boeing. Well multiple incident was Boeing How did you come up with the concept and why was it so important to you?S1
Speaker 1
00:43
I Was fascinated by Boeing because well if I step back a bit I look at a lot of failures, investigate failure, but I look at a lot of famous failures as well. And Boeing is 1 of the best examples of a failure where you have a front line incident, 2 plane crashes, But the seeds of that failure are sown way back both up the corporate ladder inside the organization and back in time. So it's a very time-dependent failure that the company made decisions that locked them on a path that not made failure inevitable but increased the probability of problems.S1
Speaker 1
01:16
Now we see other organizations do the same and I think for me we spend a lot of time talking about safety, the frontline, empowering them, that's incredibly important but there's this other side to it which is further back up the line. A lot of the problems the frontline have to deal with are set by people who don't necessarily intend to say you know cause problems but what they end up doing is create an environment where those problems essentially emerge out of it so for me it is that type of fear that very you know clearly shows that path dependence from from management decisions.S2
Speaker 2
01:51
So so if because there's going to be people that are listening to this that were not here. Could you do a brief overview of what your presentation was about? And then we'll kind of dive into some of the more detailed information if you don't mind.S1
Speaker 1
02:04
Yes, so Boeing comes out with the 737 MAX and within 5 months there's 2 crashes and 346 people are killed. After the first crash it's very much blamed on human error as is done in many of these cases that it was the pilots and the maintenance crew of the airline. What would transpire is that it was actually a problem with the plane and what had happened was the plane had a software system on board that could take control of the plane at certain points in the flight.S1
Speaker 1
02:35
It relied upon a single sensor, the sensor which is an angle of attack sensor on the front of the plane that measures the angle of the plane essentially as it's flying. If anything goes wrong with that sensor, then it feeds erroneous data to this MCAS software system. The MCAS software system can take over the plane and cause serious problems, as it did in these 2 situations with the 2 faulty sensors. A lot of the presentation is really talking about the history of what happened in Boeing to produce a situation where all it took was a single sensor failure to crash a plane.S1
Speaker 1
03:06
Because you know, in aviation, we have layers and layers of redundancy. So how did we get to a point without that redundancy? And it really goes back to, you know, Boeing was an engineering first company from 1916, by 1989, 140,000 people working in it. The belief was you build great planes and you'll be financially successful.S1
Speaker 1
03:26
They had a great line they used to have in Boeing which was, you know, we hire engineers and other people. Engineers were encouraged to demand what they needed on their planes to have them safer. So that was the culture but then in 1997 they merged with McDonnell Douglas, very different type of firm, cost-cutting, return on shareholder investment was everything and over the next 10 years that the whole company morphed into a company away from engineering to a company where the money was was was king essentially and cost cutting was was everything in returning shareholder investment was everything And what you see as part of that is that when Boeing were responding to the challenge of Airbus's new A320neo, they had to work faster. They had to work within this new culture they created.S1
Speaker 1
04:11
They started to say well Let's not build a brand new plane. Let's take an existing 737. We'll call it the Max we'll put more fuel efficient engines on it, but most importantly is we'll be able to say to the airlines it flies exactly the same as the old 737. Really important, because if you can say that to an airline, you can basically take their existing 737 pilots, pop them in the cockpit, you don't have to do simulator training.S1
Speaker 1
04:35
So there's a real age and advantage for Boeing if they can do that. To do that they have to demonstrate the plane doesn't fly any differently. And that is a sort of a key thing that sets them on this path of when the plane turns out, does fly quite differently, they end up going down this software solution to resolve the problem. And it just, it cascades.S1
Speaker 1
04:58
Over the years of development, they end up making decisions that gives essentially this automation more and more and more power and then ultimately makes it dependent on 1 single sensor. So what you really have if you want to understand the story of why a single sensor crashes a plane, you really do have to go back over that 10-15 year history to say what happens in a company that produces an environment that that's all it takes.S2
Speaker 2
05:22
Well it's almost like a single operator dependent system is what you're really boiling down to when you start talking about this because you look at it and you go okay this 1 thing goes wrong everything's going haywire.S1
Speaker 1
05:32
Absolutely.S2
Speaker 2
05:33
So when you started to take a look into this and you started taking a dive into this whole aspect of Boeing, how many hours have you dedicated just to finding out all the information that you have? Because this was a 60 minute presentation, but the amount of stories that you're going into and the amount of data in detail I could only fathom the amount of stuff that you must have invested in being able to find out this informationS1
Speaker 1
05:56
Yeah, there's a fabulous book I can't remember the name of the author but it's called flying blind and it's brilliant and then there was 1 reporter particularly from the Seattle Times Fellow Irishman actually, I can't remember his name either.S2
Speaker 2
06:07
But ifS1
Speaker 1
06:08
you look up Seattle Times, Boeing, he did incredible. I think he got the Pulitzer Prize for incredible journalism on what was happening inside Boeing. And I mean, that's still an unfolding story today.S1
Speaker 1
06:20
But certainly, Seattle times are incredible in terms of their information So yeah a huge amount of time, but I tend to get intrigued by these these failures Particularly the ones where people go there's nothing to see here. You know it was a simple mistake It was operator error and you go no. I wonder how how did we get to here? So that was sort of what drove that fascination.S2
Speaker 2
06:41
So when you start going through this and you're going around and you're presenting this, Has Boeing ever contacted you in regards of this presentation? Because this would be something where I would imagine most companies are a little bit hesitant of you're sharing this information, even though it's publicly available based on how you're able to find it.S1
Speaker 1
06:55
Yeah, it's absolutely publicly available. I did have 1 Boeing employee come up to me after 1 presentation and heS2
Speaker 2
07:01
smiled and he said, well, thanks for making me the most hated guy in the room. Oh, can I ask roughly where you were at in the world when this happened?S1
Speaker 1
07:11
I was in Australia. Oh,S2
Speaker 2
07:13
very nice, very nice. So As you're here and you're going through all of this stuff and you're going through this information and you go into these details of talking about salt and talking about peaks and valleys essentially is what you're talking about on how everything's are laying down and how these systems are able to do these things in fluidity and how you need to be paying attention to some of the things that you're not paying attention to. When you look at this, how are you looking at these different companies, these different organizations, what are they not looking at that they should be looking at?S1
Speaker 1
07:46
Yeah, so it's incredible. And this is the big challenge in safety, which you know, you'll hear almost everyone who's involved in safety talking about this. But the problem is all companies tend to focus on the visual actual things that are in front of them, which tend to be the smaller injuries that are occurring again and again and again.S1
Speaker 1
08:06
Now when it comes to the big failures and the things that cause the big failures, what we know essentially regardless of industry is that it's controls we thought were in place to manage these big hazards that are ineffective on the day. We saw this in a fatality study we did in Australia. Yes you have bad luck, yes you have human error, but what causes that bad luck and human error to progress to the point where someone gets killed is that the controls that should have been there to prevent that weren't working. Most companies seem to put in controls and then just assume they will work.S1
Speaker 1
08:43
They check them, but they seem to be genuinely surprised when they don't work. The organizations who are really good at this stuff are the ones who have what's called a sense of chronic unease. They don't trust the green reporting on their controls. They go and find out where they're weak and they try and deal with them.S1
Speaker 1
09:00
That takes a huge amount of resources, focus. It takes a company who doesn't mind bad news, in fact encourages bad news to flow up through it so things can be dealt with. And that's something that's not natural for us humans. You have to put in the practices in your organization to actually make that happen.S1
Speaker 1
09:18
So I think that's partly the reason why people don't see these things. I say to companies, particularly when it comes to single fatality risk, it's not hazards that kill people, it's ineffective controls. That's what kills people. So focus on your controls and make sure they're practical because they probably aren't near as practical as you thinkS2
Speaker 2
09:41
they are. So when you go into an organization and you start talking about them having ineffective controls, how receptive are they? Because I mean, you just walked in and said, hey, your baby's ugly, is essentially what you're telling them.S2
Speaker 2
09:51
That's pretty much what you're telling them. Well, we tend to be direct speakers, so you don't tend to getS1
Speaker 1
09:56
us in unless you're sort of prepared for what you're going to find. Yeah, it can be incredibly confronting for organizations because organizations tend to build systems and take comfort that the systems are there. They very rarely ask how effective are these systems at producing the outcome we want.S1
Speaker 1
10:17
They very rarely close that loop on it. A really interesting thing to do, which a lot of companies don't do, is look at the checks on their critical controls and they'll all be coming up green. Look at what's actually hurting people. And when you look at those investigations, you find, well, controls had to fail for that person to be hurt, but those 2 data sources are very rarely put together.S1
Speaker 1
10:40
And when they are, you just get this real richness of, well, we've clearly got a problem with how we check our controls, because we're still failing to incident on some of them. So yeah, you need a receptive company. We find that you end up, you need to be essentially working for the CEO or the board because if you have a non-receptive board or CEO, this stuff doesn't have a chance.S2
Speaker 2
11:04
So let's play the other side there. So when the, have you interacted with any organization where the CEO is not very receptive to your ideas when you first come in?S1
Speaker 1
11:13
Yeah, yeah, that happens from time to time, absolutely.S2
Speaker 2
11:16
So when you go in there and you start saying, okay, this is where you're leaning, this is where you need to start going. What is the standard interaction there? Because some people have a very hard time, even when consultants come in, even though they're saying we need help, but we need help the way that we want help.S1
Speaker 1
11:33
That's right. And it doesn't even the firm who really wants help and wants to be told the stuff, you go through this incredible process with them where almost everything you say turns into, but yeah, but you don't understand. So what actually happens is this, this, and this, and this, and they explain it all out to you.S1
Speaker 1
11:56
And then what typically happens is we go and we say, well, okay, we'll test that hypothesis. We'll go to the next level and test the hypotheses. And you come back with their own data, which is always very powerful, and you show, well, this is not happening. So a really good example is you say, look, people aren't following these procedures because they don't work.S1
Speaker 1
12:16
And then people go, yeah, yeah, but we've got a procedure for changing the procedures, right? So there's a way of doing it, no problem. So we'll go, sure, show us your data on how many procedures have been changed in the last year. And the answer will be none.S1
Speaker 1
12:32
So you go right classic work is imagined work is done. You believe you've got a procedure that will capture any changes that need to happen but in reality nothing's happened. It's not been used. So that's we love that sort of data approach that you have to go and find the evidence.S1
Speaker 1
12:48
And we do a 2 pronged sort of thing with clients. You go in and go, we'll have a look at your system, we'll have a look at your data, particularly your incident near miss data, because you can tell so much about a culture, about what's in that and what's not in that. And even the wording that's used in that. We did some work with 1 client who had a quite a serious fire and they said we've never had a fire before.S1
Speaker 1
13:11
But when you get into the data they had loads of fires. But their people were writing small fire, small flame, glow, glow. And of course these were all precursor events that were just being lost. But then when you put that data in front of a client, they suddenly go, I've got a reporting problem.S1
Speaker 1
13:28
And I say, yeah, because they're afraid to say fire in their instance. They're putting them in, but they're afraid to say what they really are. They're using that minimizing language. So do that, go talk to HR, find out why people get fired, put those 2 data sources together, then go out and talk to the people, and they'll tell you very quickly about, you know, the evidence you're looking at in the data, they'll tell you why that is the way it is.S1
Speaker 1
13:52
And it's a really powerful combination in terms of trying to get to the heart of what's in an organization. Because I think we often find If you have an organization with a good system, it's always in the interactions between things that the problems are. And getting to grips with those interactions is the bit that people often miss. When you say, look, if you have a good system, but you're jammed over here, because this KPI over here is making these people behave in this way, and you've got a bottleneck.S1
Speaker 1
14:24
And it's only in dealing with that KPI that you'll make that change. So that's, it's really, I love going in and going, how do you think your system works? How does it actually work?S2
Speaker 2
14:34
So you're almost going in and telling them hypothesis tests verify through their whole processes to see how it goes across the board. Am I seeing that accurately?S1
Speaker 1
14:43
Absolutely and sometimes if they're really open-minded they'll say to us, here are a set of beliefs we have in this organization, can you test them? And that's really powerful as well to go in and say, right well everyone believes this the way this happens, let's let's have a look to see if this is how it happens.S2
Speaker 2
15:01
But a belief system and actually bringing science or validation of data is totally 2 different things. I mean, I can believe anything that I want all day long. It doesn't mean that that's exactly how our system is running.S1
Speaker 1
15:12
Exactly. And that can be the most confronting. The most confronting can be to say, here's this belief you have as an organization in how you do something and that data doesn't support that at all. And that's not us saying that, that's your data saying that.S1
Speaker 1
15:29
Because we find it's really, Everyone collects data on everything, absolutely everything. And then all they seem to do, most companies seem to do, is they look at the data that relates to KPIs. And all the rest of the data, they don't even look at. So a lot of the value we end up bringing is, we just read their data.S1
Speaker 1
15:44
We do something they don't normally do.S2
Speaker 2
15:45
You're giving away tradeS1
Speaker 1
15:46
secrets now. It is so simple but so important. But most people are too busy in the company to look at the data that doesn't pertain to something that they have to put on a graph to report at the end of the month.S1
Speaker 1
15:58
And the value that's in that data, which you now can tap into with a lot of AI and that is really powerful to be able to pull that together and say, well, how did your organization really look when you look at the broader data set?S2
Speaker 2
16:11
And so when you're bringing these things to light, when you're showing them information based on the data that they've collected. What is the initial shock? What is the initial response?S2
Speaker 2
16:20
Because I'm sure that most of your conversations starting off of, our company's different, we're different than other companies, we do it better, but we are having these minute problems.S1
Speaker 1
16:31
Yeah, so you definitely get that pushback exactly like you said and we talked about earlier. And it's very, we find it's very important to sort of do a two-stage thing. So go in and present.S1
Speaker 1
16:43
Some people can actually get quite angry. They can, It's always emotional. It's never not emotional. And then you sort of have to stand back and sort of do another meeting when you come back to talk rationally about it.S1
Speaker 1
16:57
And it's amazing, we'll do meetings where people will react very emotionally to it, be quite angry about it. You come back in a week and they'll sit there and go, I've looked at it again and again and again this week and I think these are right and then you start to work through to the solution. The mistake is believing it won't be emotional. Yeah.S2
Speaker 2
17:24
So you're almost a psychologist, a human resource person at that particular portion when you start seeing that they're going through this emotional side of this. I was going to take a guess at here, correct?S1
Speaker 1
17:37
Yeah, yeah, you mean you are... You'reS2
Speaker 2
17:38
a counselor. I mean, let's be realistic.S1
Speaker 1
17:40
Yeah, because you're... You know, a lot of, particularly in high hazard industries where there's really big risks, the belief your system is not in as much control as you want it to be is frankly terrifying, particularly if you've been the 1 who's built it or are maintaining it and driving it and all that sort of stuff. So actually to be told, no you've got some quite significant vulnerabilities in this system or even worse, your people are gaming the system over here in this way to manage this and they're creating this risk.S2
Speaker 2
18:14
Not our people, they don't game anything.S1
Speaker 1
18:17
That's really hard to hear and you know it is the the difficulty in getting bad news to flow up and in a company is is is It takes some real strength to the top of that company as someone said to me once and I think it's brilliant boards can't cope with safety graphs that rise. It's as simple as that. And anything that makes the safety graph rise causes concern.S1
Speaker 1
18:45
And the concern can get in the way of the rational debate about what it actually means. And that's the issue. I just say if we could just get boards to think about safety the way they do about finance, we'd make so many strides. You know, if we said to a company, right when you run your financial health of the company you're only allowed 1 KPI, what's it going to be?S1
Speaker 1
19:06
Well they'd say well you can't do it. You'd say well you do that with safety, you know you just put the drifter on it and you have to go. You know when you're doing your yearly budgets you don't make up your budget and then check it at the end of the year to hope you were right, like we do in safety, you check it every month. If someone doesn't have a profitable month you don't fire them, you don't say to them try harder to be profitable, you say okay well what went wrong, what do we need to do differently, let's trial something, all right let's trial this, did it work, did it not, Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly.S1
Speaker 1
19:34
Let's give it a couple of months. You know, it's really about trying to get boards to take that mentality, which they have and apply it to safety because safety is really no different in terms of we like to pretend it is, because it's quite terrifying that it's not, but it really is no different to that.S2
Speaker 2
19:50
So let's talk about structure then. If you were going to structure an organization and you say, okay, this is where these different departments are going to go into, you already know I'm going to ask the safety question, because that's definitely where I'm leaning. Where would you see the safety department reporting to?S2
Speaker 2
20:05
Would it be HR? Would it be legal? Would it be finance? Or would it be operations?S2
Speaker 2
20:09
How would you lay out the structure?S1
Speaker 1
20:11
It's got to go straight to the top. And that's what you see with organizations who have gone through major failures. You have to have a safety person with the year of the CEO because the chief financial officer is going to have the year of the CEO.S1
Speaker 1
20:26
You need your safety person at that level as well and what you see with many organizations is that they don't have that person, they have a major failure, suddenly that person exists. That person has to be completely outside of financial stuff so that they can do their job without, you know, the monthly targets mattering or caring. And I think 1 of the mistakes, I've got this a little bit of a controversial theory of which I have no evidence whatsoever, but I think a lot of companies set themselves up, particularly for in the resources industry. We go, right, we want to get that out of the ground, that resource, whatever it is.S1
Speaker 1
21:02
Let's design the company to get that out of the ground as efficiently as we can. And we design the company and we start going down that path and we lock that in. And then at some point we go, oh hang on, we're going to need a safety department over there on the side and we're going to need an environmental department over there on the side to police this system we've already built. But that system was never built to be safety first.S1
Speaker 1
21:24
That system was built to be efficiency first, which means your safety people and your environmental people will always be seen as the police, the piece of grit that gets caught in the wheel and slows things down. So it's critically important that they're able to get to the CEO and say, this is what's actually happening. This is what my people are telling me is actually happening on our sites. Because if the person at the top making the decisions doesn't have that information, how would we expect them to do anything differently?S1
Speaker 1
21:55
And in the big failures, what you always find is that the CEO and the board, they're not getting the information that exists usually that would have them make better decisions.S2
Speaker 2
22:07
So, I've asked this question several times, of course, to other people in regards of how they look at this. And some arguments that have come up in the past is, I had to earn my spot on the board Why should someone that's coming from a safety department that doesn't understand our industry because that's normally kind of where it falls intoS1
Speaker 1
22:23
Yep,S2
Speaker 2
22:24
why should they not have to earn the same way that I did?S1
Speaker 1
22:28
Yeah, I mean thisS2
Speaker 2
22:29
is this We're just talking theory. I call it totes, theory of everything.S1
Speaker 1
22:34
Yeah, I mean, the question is, if you were a board, why would you not want someone like that on the board? You know, we put people on boards with really good financial ability and all those things, and that's absolutely necessary, but we do have to get that technical balance because 1 of the big problems with safety we know is risk imagination, it's risk competence, particularly when it comes to big process safety events which by default catastrophic or significant but really rare And you need people who will be able to sit on that board and say to everyone else, I know this appears really rare, but this is the nature of these risks. And this is how we need to think about managing it.S1
Speaker 1
23:15
So for me, it's a case of going, if you're a board, you need that expertise there. You're more vulnerable if you don't have it. So the fact you're in a high hazard industry, in my view, would be earning the position for someone to be on that board with that right expertise who can say hang on, let's just look at this from a technical perspective. In the same way as financial people will say hang on, this is risky financially, and people will listen.S1
Speaker 1
23:40
It's that balance that's important. And it's when that balance gets out of whack that I think we really are at risk.S2
Speaker 2
23:47
I think that the way that you have that set up is perfect because that's the way that it should roll out. That is the way that people should be looking at it, not so much of a earn your spot. And I say earn your spot, and I know that sounds terrible, but it's having that expertise right there.S1
Speaker 1
24:01
Yeah, I think.S2
Speaker 2
24:03
Okay, so Sean, let me ask a strange question. What do you have coming up next? What is there anything event wise that you're going to be doing that's open to the public that they can go in and see it?S1
Speaker 1
24:12
Yeah, there's a 2 big conferences industry coming up in the next 6 months. They're both mining industry conferences, 1 in Queensland, 1 in New South Wales. I'll be presenting at both of those as well.S1
Speaker 1
24:25
Some of the, well hopefully presenting at 1 of them. Abstracts are in. And some of the team hopefully will be there as well. And then we're doing another 1 down in New South Wales where we were talking about a lot of this sort of stuff as well.S1
Speaker 1
24:36
I just love talking about organisational failure and why it happens. And I'm not, I don't sort of do the solutions to these problems. I'm much more interested in what causes them in the first place and are we trying to solve the right causes? Because it's certainly the organizational ones not necessarily the technical ones that we should be be throwing things out So that's the the big ones that are coming up for us in the next little while.S2
Speaker 2
25:04
And then are you planning on doing more stuff North America side?S1
Speaker 1
25:08
Not at the moment, but love to.S2
Speaker 2
25:10
So in talking about North America, what do you think about here? Energy Safety Canada, what they've been doing in Banff. I mean you and I, we got put through a lecture last night by the CEO Murray which I thought was great telling us about the history of what they've been doing in Banff for the last 30 years.S2
Speaker 2
25:24
It's a beautiful venue. I mean I think it's probably 1 of the best venues that I've been to.S1
Speaker 1
25:28
It's incredible. The conference is incredible. Over 900 people here.S1
Speaker 1
25:32
Perfect balance between time to chat, sessions, long sessions which have been really good so there's time to really get into some meaty topics. The location is incredible, it's snowed. I live in Australia, I haven't seen snow in over 20 years. That was tremendously exciting, as was for the other Australians here.S1
Speaker 1
25:51
It's been a fantastic conference.S2
Speaker 2
25:53
Now we rode up together and, like we were having the discussion in the car, the pictures do not do this place justice in regards to how it looks. It's very impressive once you pull up and it's not that the pictures are not impressive it's just once you get here it's it's mesmerizedS1
Speaker 1
26:07
and with the problem of the pictures is this sort of kind of unbelievable you go it can't actually look like that and then when you get there you go oh wow it looks exactly like thatS2
Speaker 2
26:16
So if people want to find out more about what you have going on, where can theyS1
Speaker 1
26:18
go?S2
Speaker 2
26:19
Go to our website,S1
Speaker 1
26:20
BradyHawood.com.au, LinkedIn, join us on LinkedIn, that'll be great. We do a number of podcasts, which I would point people in the direction of. Again, they're on our website page, Rethinking Safety, which is all about safety, obviously.S1
Speaker 1
26:34
Brady Habeo podcast, we talk about big failures and what happens and simplifying complexity. We talk about complexity theory in all sort of forms and parts of life, not just safety. But if you're interested in these sort of ideas, you'd probably like that as well.S2
Speaker 2
26:47
Okay. Well, Sean, I really do appreciate you coming on.S1
Speaker 1
26:49
Thank you very much, too.S3
Speaker 3
26:52
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information.S3
Speaker 3
27:12
Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, mechanical, electronic, recording, or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, Jay Allen.Speaker 200:08Okay, we are broadcasting live because that's what we've been doing this week. Of course, having all kinds of fun times as we are hanging out at Energy Safety Canada in Banff. Yes, you know, that lovely location.S2
Speaker 2
00:21
So let's talk. Sean, directly off the stage, we have you in the chair in front of us, probably 1 of the best presentations I think I've seen in my whole life and I'm not saying that because you're really good.S1
Speaker 1
00:30
Thank you very much,S2
Speaker 2
00:31
Jim. So talk to me because, okay, you covered this very intriguing incident with Boeing. Well multiple incident was Boeing How did you come up with the concept and why was it so important to you?S1
Speaker 1
00:43
I Was fascinated by Boeing because well if I step back a bit I look at a lot of failures, investigate failure, but I look at a lot of famous failures as well. And Boeing is 1 of the best examples of a failure where you have a front line incident, 2 plane crashes, But the seeds of that failure are sown way back both up the corporate ladder inside the organization and back in time. So it's a very time-dependent failure that the company made decisions that locked them on a path that not made failure inevitable but increased the probability of problems.S1
Speaker 1
01:16
Now we see other organizations do the same and I think for me we spend a lot of time talking about safety, the frontline, empowering them, that's incredibly important but there's this other side to it which is further back up the line. A lot of the problems the frontline have to deal with are set by people who don't necessarily intend to say you know cause problems but what they end up doing is create an environment where those problems essentially emerge out of it so for me it is that type of fear that very you know clearly shows that path dependence from from management decisions.S2
Speaker 2
01:51
So so if because there's going to be people that are listening to this that were not here. Could you do a brief overview of what your presentation was about? And then we'll kind of dive into some of the more detailed information if you don't mind.S1
Speaker 1
02:04
Yes, so Boeing comes out with the 737 MAX and within 5 months there's 2 crashes and 346 people are killed. After the first crash it's very much blamed on human error as is done in many of these cases that it was the pilots and the maintenance crew of the airline. What would transpire is that it was actually a problem with the plane and what had happened was the plane had a software system on board that could take control of the plane at certain points in the flight.S1
Speaker 1
02:35
It relied upon a single sensor, the sensor which is an angle of attack sensor on the front of the plane that measures the angle of the plane essentially as it's flying. If anything goes wrong with that sensor, then it feeds erroneous data to this MCAS software system. The MCAS software system can take over the plane and cause serious problems, as it did in these 2 situations with the 2 faulty sensors. A lot of the presentation is really talking about the history of what happened in Boeing to produce a situation where all it took was a single sensor failure to crash a plane.S1
Speaker 1
03:06
Because you know, in aviation, we have layers and layers of redundancy. So how did we get to a point without that redundancy? And it really goes back to, you know, Boeing was an engineering first company from 1916, by 1989, 140,000 people working in it. The belief was you build great planes and you'll be financially successful.S1
Speaker 1
03:26
They had a great line they used to have in Boeing which was, you know, we hire engineers and other people. Engineers were encouraged to demand what they needed on their planes to have them safer. So that was the culture but then in 1997 they merged with McDonnell Douglas, very different type of firm, cost-cutting, return on shareholder investment was everything and over the next 10 years that the whole company morphed into a company away from engineering to a company where the money was was was king essentially and cost cutting was was everything in returning shareholder investment was everything And what you see as part of that is that when Boeing were responding to the challenge of Airbus's new A320neo, they had to work faster. They had to work within this new culture they created.S1
Speaker 1
04:11
They started to say well Let's not build a brand new plane. Let's take an existing 737. We'll call it the Max we'll put more fuel efficient engines on it, but most importantly is we'll be able to say to the airlines it flies exactly the same as the old 737. Really important, because if you can say that to an airline, you can basically take their existing 737 pilots, pop them in the cockpit, you don't have to do simulator training.S1
Speaker 1
04:35
So there's a real age and advantage for Boeing if they can do that. To do that they have to demonstrate the plane doesn't fly any differently. And that is a sort of a key thing that sets them on this path of when the plane turns out, does fly quite differently, they end up going down this software solution to resolve the problem. And it just, it cascades.S1
Speaker 1
04:58
Over the years of development, they end up making decisions that gives essentially this automation more and more and more power and then ultimately makes it dependent on 1 single sensor. So what you really have if you want to understand the story of why a single sensor crashes a plane, you really do have to go back over that 10-15 year history to say what happens in a company that produces an environment that that's all it takes.S2
Speaker 2
05:22
Well it's almost like a single operator dependent system is what you're really boiling down to when you start talking about this because you look at it and you go okay this 1 thing goes wrong everything's going haywire.S1
Speaker 1
05:32
Absolutely.S2
Speaker 2
05:33
So when you started to take a look into this and you started taking a dive into this whole aspect of Boeing, how many hours have you dedicated just to finding out all the information that you have? Because this was a 60 minute presentation, but the amount of stories that you're going into and the amount of data in detail I could only fathom the amount of stuff that you must have invested in being able to find out this informationS1
Speaker 1
05:56
Yeah, there's a fabulous book I can't remember the name of the author but it's called flying blind and it's brilliant and then there was 1 reporter particularly from the Seattle Times Fellow Irishman actually, I can't remember his name either.S2
Speaker 2
06:07
But ifS1
Speaker 1
06:08
you look up Seattle Times, Boeing, he did incredible. I think he got the Pulitzer Prize for incredible journalism on what was happening inside Boeing. And I mean, that's still an unfolding story today.S1
Speaker 1
06:20
But certainly, Seattle times are incredible in terms of their information So yeah a huge amount of time, but I tend to get intrigued by these these failures Particularly the ones where people go there's nothing to see here. You know it was a simple mistake It was operator error and you go no. I wonder how how did we get to here? So that was sort of what drove that fascination.S2
Speaker 2
06:41
So when you start going through this and you're going around and you're presenting this, Has Boeing ever contacted you in regards of this presentation? Because this would be something where I would imagine most companies are a little bit hesitant of you're sharing this information, even though it's publicly available based on how you're able to find it.S1
Speaker 1
06:55
Yeah, it's absolutely publicly available. I did have 1 Boeing employee come up to me after 1 presentation and heS2
Speaker 2
07:01
smiled and he said, well, thanks for making me the most hated guy in the room. Oh, can I ask roughly where you were at in the world when this happened?S1
Speaker 1
07:11
I was in Australia. Oh,S2
Speaker 2
07:13
very nice, very nice. So As you're here and you're going through all of this stuff and you're going through this information and you go into these details of talking about salt and talking about peaks and valleys essentially is what you're talking about on how everything's are laying down and how these systems are able to do these things in fluidity and how you need to be paying attention to some of the things that you're not paying attention to. When you look at this, how are you looking at these different companies, these different organizations, what are they not looking at that they should be looking at?S1
Speaker 1
07:46
Yeah, so it's incredible. And this is the big challenge in safety, which you know, you'll hear almost everyone who's involved in safety talking about this. But the problem is all companies tend to focus on the visual actual things that are in front of them, which tend to be the smaller injuries that are occurring again and again and again.S1
Speaker 1
08:06
Now when it comes to the big failures and the things that cause the big failures, what we know essentially regardless of industry is that it's controls we thought were in place to manage these big hazards that are ineffective on the day. We saw this in a fatality study we did in Australia. Yes you have bad luck, yes you have human error, but what causes that bad luck and human error to progress to the point where someone gets killed is that the controls that should have been there to prevent that weren't working. Most companies seem to put in controls and then just assume they will work.S1
Speaker 1
08:43
They check them, but they seem to be genuinely surprised when they don't work. The organizations who are really good at this stuff are the ones who have what's called a sense of chronic unease. They don't trust the green reporting on their controls. They go and find out where they're weak and they try and deal with them.S1
Speaker 1
09:00
That takes a huge amount of resources, focus. It takes a company who doesn't mind bad news, in fact encourages bad news to flow up through it so things can be dealt with. And that's something that's not natural for us humans. You have to put in the practices in your organization to actually make that happen.S1
Speaker 1
09:18
So I think that's partly the reason why people don't see these things. I say to companies, particularly when it comes to single fatality risk, it's not hazards that kill people, it's ineffective controls. That's what kills people. So focus on your controls and make sure they're practical because they probably aren't near as practical as you thinkS2
Speaker 2
09:41
they are. So when you go into an organization and you start talking about them having ineffective controls, how receptive are they? Because I mean, you just walked in and said, hey, your baby's ugly, is essentially what you're telling them.S2
Speaker 2
09:51
That's pretty much what you're telling them. Well, we tend to be direct speakers, so you don't tend to getS1
Speaker 1
09:56
us in unless you're sort of prepared for what you're going to find. Yeah, it can be incredibly confronting for organizations because organizations tend to build systems and take comfort that the systems are there. They very rarely ask how effective are these systems at producing the outcome we want.S1
Speaker 1
10:17
They very rarely close that loop on it. A really interesting thing to do, which a lot of companies don't do, is look at the checks on their critical controls and they'll all be coming up green. Look at what's actually hurting people. And when you look at those investigations, you find, well, controls had to fail for that person to be hurt, but those 2 data sources are very rarely put together.S1
Speaker 1
10:40
And when they are, you just get this real richness of, well, we've clearly got a problem with how we check our controls, because we're still failing to incident on some of them. So yeah, you need a receptive company. We find that you end up, you need to be essentially working for the CEO or the board because if you have a non-receptive board or CEO, this stuff doesn't have a chance.S2
Speaker 2
11:04
So let's play the other side there. So when the, have you interacted with any organization where the CEO is not very receptive to your ideas when you first come in?S1
Speaker 1
11:13
Yeah, yeah, that happens from time to time, absolutely.S2
Speaker 2
11:16
So when you go in there and you start saying, okay, this is where you're leaning, this is where you need to start going. What is the standard interaction there? Because some people have a very hard time, even when consultants come in, even though they're saying we need help, but we need help the way that we want help.S1
Speaker 1
11:33
That's right. And it doesn't even the firm who really wants help and wants to be told the stuff, you go through this incredible process with them where almost everything you say turns into, but yeah, but you don't understand. So what actually happens is this, this, and this, and this, and they explain it all out to you.S1
Speaker 1
11:56
And then what typically happens is we go and we say, well, okay, we'll test that hypothesis. We'll go to the next level and test the hypotheses. And you come back with their own data, which is always very powerful, and you show, well, this is not happening. So a really good example is you say, look, people aren't following these procedures because they don't work.S1
Speaker 1
12:16
And then people go, yeah, yeah, but we've got a procedure for changing the procedures, right? So there's a way of doing it, no problem. So we'll go, sure, show us your data on how many procedures have been changed in the last year. And the answer will be none.S1
Speaker 1
12:32
So you go right classic work is imagined work is done. You believe you've got a procedure that will capture any changes that need to happen but in reality nothing's happened. It's not been used. So that's we love that sort of data approach that you have to go and find the evidence.S1
Speaker 1
12:48
And we do a 2 pronged sort of thing with clients. You go in and go, we'll have a look at your system, we'll have a look at your data, particularly your incident near miss data, because you can tell so much about a culture, about what's in that and what's not in that. And even the wording that's used in that. We did some work with 1 client who had a quite a serious fire and they said we've never had a fire before.S1
Speaker 1
13:11
But when you get into the data they had loads of fires. But their people were writing small fire, small flame, glow, glow. And of course these were all precursor events that were just being lost. But then when you put that data in front of a client, they suddenly go, I've got a reporting problem.S1
Speaker 1
13:28
And I say, yeah, because they're afraid to say fire in their instance. They're putting them in, but they're afraid to say what they really are. They're using that minimizing language. So do that, go talk to HR, find out why people get fired, put those 2 data sources together, then go out and talk to the people, and they'll tell you very quickly about, you know, the evidence you're looking at in the data, they'll tell you why that is the way it is.S1
Speaker 1
13:52
And it's a really powerful combination in terms of trying to get to the heart of what's in an organization. Because I think we often find If you have an organization with a good system, it's always in the interactions between things that the problems are. And getting to grips with those interactions is the bit that people often miss. When you say, look, if you have a good system, but you're jammed over here, because this KPI over here is making these people behave in this way, and you've got a bottleneck.S1
Speaker 1
14:24
And it's only in dealing with that KPI that you'll make that change. So that's, it's really, I love going in and going, how do you think your system works? How does it actually work?S2
Speaker 2
14:34
So you're almost going in and telling them hypothesis tests verify through their whole processes to see how it goes across the board. Am I seeing that accurately?S1
Speaker 1
14:43
Absolutely and sometimes if they're really open-minded they'll say to us, here are a set of beliefs we have in this organization, can you test them? And that's really powerful as well to go in and say, right well everyone believes this the way this happens, let's let's have a look to see if this is how it happens.S2
Speaker 2
15:01
But a belief system and actually bringing science or validation of data is totally 2 different things. I mean, I can believe anything that I want all day long. It doesn't mean that that's exactly how our system is running.S1
Speaker 1
15:12
Exactly. And that can be the most confronting. The most confronting can be to say, here's this belief you have as an organization in how you do something and that data doesn't support that at all. And that's not us saying that, that's your data saying that.S1
Speaker 1
15:29
Because we find it's really, Everyone collects data on everything, absolutely everything. And then all they seem to do, most companies seem to do, is they look at the data that relates to KPIs. And all the rest of the data, they don't even look at. So a lot of the value we end up bringing is, we just read their data.S1
Speaker 1
15:44
We do something they don't normally do.S2
Speaker 2
15:45
You're giving away tradeS1
Speaker 1
15:46
secrets now. It is so simple but so important. But most people are too busy in the company to look at the data that doesn't pertain to something that they have to put on a graph to report at the end of the month.S1
Speaker 1
15:58
And the value that's in that data, which you now can tap into with a lot of AI and that is really powerful to be able to pull that together and say, well, how did your organization really look when you look at the broader data set?S2
Speaker 2
16:11
And so when you're bringing these things to light, when you're showing them information based on the data that they've collected. What is the initial shock? What is the initial response?S2
Speaker 2
16:20
Because I'm sure that most of your conversations starting off of, our company's different, we're different than other companies, we do it better, but we are having these minute problems.S1
Speaker 1
16:31
Yeah, so you definitely get that pushback exactly like you said and we talked about earlier. And it's very, we find it's very important to sort of do a two-stage thing. So go in and present.S1
Speaker 1
16:43
Some people can actually get quite angry. They can, It's always emotional. It's never not emotional. And then you sort of have to stand back and sort of do another meeting when you come back to talk rationally about it.S1
Speaker 1
16:57
And it's amazing, we'll do meetings where people will react very emotionally to it, be quite angry about it. You come back in a week and they'll sit there and go, I've looked at it again and again and again this week and I think these are right and then you start to work through to the solution. The mistake is believing it won't be emotional. Yeah.S2
Speaker 2
17:24
So you're almost a psychologist, a human resource person at that particular portion when you start seeing that they're going through this emotional side of this. I was going to take a guess at here, correct?S1
Speaker 1
17:37
Yeah, yeah, you mean you are... You'reS2
Speaker 2
17:38
a counselor. I mean, let's be realistic.S1
Speaker 1
17:40
Yeah, because you're... You know, a lot of, particularly in high hazard industries where there's really big risks, the belief your system is not in as much control as you want it to be is frankly terrifying, particularly if you've been the 1 who's built it or are maintaining it and driving it and all that sort of stuff. So actually to be told, no you've got some quite significant vulnerabilities in this system or even worse, your people are gaming the system over here in this way to manage this and they're creating this risk.S2
Speaker 2
18:14
Not our people, they don't game anything.S1
Speaker 1
18:17
That's really hard to hear and you know it is the the difficulty in getting bad news to flow up and in a company is is is It takes some real strength to the top of that company as someone said to me once and I think it's brilliant boards can't cope with safety graphs that rise. It's as simple as that. And anything that makes the safety graph rise causes concern.S1
Speaker 1
18:45
And the concern can get in the way of the rational debate about what it actually means. And that's the issue. I just say if we could just get boards to think about safety the way they do about finance, we'd make so many strides. You know, if we said to a company, right when you run your financial health of the company you're only allowed 1 KPI, what's it going to be?S1
Speaker 1
19:06
Well they'd say well you can't do it. You'd say well you do that with safety, you know you just put the drifter on it and you have to go. You know when you're doing your yearly budgets you don't make up your budget and then check it at the end of the year to hope you were right, like we do in safety, you check it every month. If someone doesn't have a profitable month you don't fire them, you don't say to them try harder to be profitable, you say okay well what went wrong, what do we need to do differently, let's trial something, all right let's trial this, did it work, did it not, Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly.S1
Speaker 1
19:34
Let's give it a couple of months. You know, it's really about trying to get boards to take that mentality, which they have and apply it to safety because safety is really no different in terms of we like to pretend it is, because it's quite terrifying that it's not, but it really is no different to that.S2
Speaker 2
19:50
So let's talk about structure then. If you were going to structure an organization and you say, okay, this is where these different departments are going to go into, you already know I'm going to ask the safety question, because that's definitely where I'm leaning. Where would you see the safety department reporting to?S2
Speaker 2
20:05
Would it be HR? Would it be legal? Would it be finance? Or would it be operations?S2
Speaker 2
20:09
How would you lay out the structure?S1
Speaker 1
20:11
It's got to go straight to the top. And that's what you see with organizations who have gone through major failures. You have to have a safety person with the year of the CEO because the chief financial officer is going to have the year of the CEO.S1
Speaker 1
20:26
You need your safety person at that level as well and what you see with many organizations is that they don't have that person, they have a major failure, suddenly that person exists. That person has to be completely outside of financial stuff so that they can do their job without, you know, the monthly targets mattering or caring. And I think 1 of the mistakes, I've got this a little bit of a controversial theory of which I have no evidence whatsoever, but I think a lot of companies set themselves up, particularly for in the resources industry. We go, right, we want to get that out of the ground, that resource, whatever it is.S1
Speaker 1
21:02
Let's design the company to get that out of the ground as efficiently as we can. And we design the company and we start going down that path and we lock that in. And then at some point we go, oh hang on, we're going to need a safety department over there on the side and we're going to need an environmental department over there on the side to police this system we've already built. But that system was never built to be safety first.S1
Speaker 1
21:24
That system was built to be efficiency first, which means your safety people and your environmental people will always be seen as the police, the piece of grit that gets caught in the wheel and slows things down. So it's critically important that they're able to get to the CEO and say, this is what's actually happening. This is what my people are telling me is actually happening on our sites. Because if the person at the top making the decisions doesn't have that information, how would we expect them to do anything differently?S1
Speaker 1
21:55
And in the big failures, what you always find is that the CEO and the board, they're not getting the information that exists usually that would have them make better decisions.S2
Speaker 2
22:07
So, I've asked this question several times, of course, to other people in regards of how they look at this. And some arguments that have come up in the past is, I had to earn my spot on the board Why should someone that's coming from a safety department that doesn't understand our industry because that's normally kind of where it falls intoS1
Speaker 1
22:23
Yep,S2
Speaker 2
22:24
why should they not have to earn the same way that I did?S1
Speaker 1
22:28
Yeah, I mean thisS2
Speaker 2
22:29
is this We're just talking theory. I call it totes, theory of everything.S1
Speaker 1
22:34
Yeah, I mean, the question is, if you were a board, why would you not want someone like that on the board? You know, we put people on boards with really good financial ability and all those things, and that's absolutely necessary, but we do have to get that technical balance because 1 of the big problems with safety we know is risk imagination, it's risk competence, particularly when it comes to big process safety events which by default catastrophic or significant but really rare And you need people who will be able to sit on that board and say to everyone else, I know this appears really rare, but this is the nature of these risks. And this is how we need to think about managing it.S1
Speaker 1
23:15
So for me, it's a case of going, if you're a board, you need that expertise there. You're more vulnerable if you don't have it. So the fact you're in a high hazard industry, in my view, would be earning the position for someone to be on that board with that right expertise who can say hang on, let's just look at this from a technical perspective. In the same way as financial people will say hang on, this is risky financially, and people will listen.S1
Speaker 1
23:40
It's that balance that's important. And it's when that balance gets out of whack that I think we really are at risk.S2
Speaker 2
23:47
I think that the way that you have that set up is perfect because that's the way that it should roll out. That is the way that people should be looking at it, not so much of a earn your spot. And I say earn your spot, and I know that sounds terrible, but it's having that expertise right there.S1
Speaker 1
24:01
Yeah, I think.S2
Speaker 2
24:03
Okay, so Sean, let me ask a strange question. What do you have coming up next? What is there anything event wise that you're going to be doing that's open to the public that they can go in and see it?S1
Speaker 1
24:12
Yeah, there's a 2 big conferences industry coming up in the next 6 months. They're both mining industry conferences, 1 in Queensland, 1 in New South Wales. I'll be presenting at both of those as well.S1
Speaker 1
24:25
Some of the, well hopefully presenting at 1 of them. Abstracts are in. And some of the team hopefully will be there as well. And then we're doing another 1 down in New South Wales where we were talking about a lot of this sort of stuff as well.S1
Speaker 1
24:36
I just love talking about organisational failure and why it happens. And I'm not, I don't sort of do the solutions to these problems. I'm much more interested in what causes them in the first place and are we trying to solve the right causes? Because it's certainly the organizational ones not necessarily the technical ones that we should be be throwing things out So that's the the big ones that are coming up for us in the next little while.S2
Speaker 2
25:04
And then are you planning on doing more stuff North America side?S1
Speaker 1
25:08
Not at the moment, but love to.S2
Speaker 2
25:10
So in talking about North America, what do you think about here? Energy Safety Canada, what they've been doing in Banff. I mean you and I, we got put through a lecture last night by the CEO Murray which I thought was great telling us about the history of what they've been doing in Banff for the last 30 years.S2
Speaker 2
25:24
It's a beautiful venue. I mean I think it's probably 1 of the best venues that I've been to.S1
Speaker 1
25:28
It's incredible. The conference is incredible. Over 900 people here.S1
Speaker 1
25:32
Perfect balance between time to chat, sessions, long sessions which have been really good so there's time to really get into some meaty topics. The location is incredible, it's snowed. I live in Australia, I haven't seen snow in over 20 years. That was tremendously exciting, as was for the other Australians here.S1
Speaker 1
25:51
It's been a fantastic conference.S2
Speaker 2
25:53
Now we rode up together and, like we were having the discussion in the car, the pictures do not do this place justice in regards to how it looks. It's very impressive once you pull up and it's not that the pictures are not impressive it's just once you get here it's it's mesmerizedS1
Speaker 1
26:07
and with the problem of the pictures is this sort of kind of unbelievable you go it can't actually look like that and then when you get there you go oh wow it looks exactly like thatS2
Speaker 2
26:16
So if people want to find out more about what you have going on, where can theyS1
Speaker 1
26:18
go?S2
Speaker 2
26:19
Go to our website,S1
Speaker 1
26:20
BradyHawood.com.au, LinkedIn, join us on LinkedIn, that'll be great. We do a number of podcasts, which I would point people in the direction of. Again, they're on our website page, Rethinking Safety, which is all about safety, obviously.S1
Speaker 1
26:34
Brady Habeo podcast, we talk about big failures and what happens and simplifying complexity. We talk about complexity theory in all sort of forms and parts of life, not just safety. But if you're interested in these sort of ideas, you'd probably like that as well.S2
Speaker 2
26:47
Okay. Well, Sean, I really do appreciate you coming on.S1
Speaker 1
26:49
Thank you very much, too.S3
Speaker 3
26:52
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information.S3
Speaker 3
27:12
Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, mechanical, electronic, recording, or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, Jay Allen.
Today Jay discusses the frustration of NOT doing the work. Hear all about it today on Safety FM Mini
Speaker 2
00:09
Okay, here we are coming to you live from Energy Safety Canada 2024. That's what's happening. Dave Proven, right directly off the stage.S2
Speaker 2
00:17
How are you?S1
Speaker 1
00:18
Good Jay, good. It's wonderful to be back in Canada and to have an opportunity to talk to the community here and to speak with you now.S2
Speaker 2
00:24
Well, here's the thing. You know that I have had this plan like several times and it has never worked out. We have never managed to pull this off.S2
Speaker 2
00:31
And I feel like an asshole to be honest with you from last time because I owe this to you from all in 1S1
Speaker 1
00:36
yeah well I tend to get distracted I tend to tend to forget commitments that I make soS2
Speaker 2
00:44
it was my fault I didn't bring you to the bridal suite. Let's make sure that we remember where I was at.S1
Speaker 1
00:49
Well, Jay, a wise person told me that blame fixes nothing.S2
Speaker 2
00:53
I've heard that once or twice. So you just got off the stage. What were you not able to cover that you wanted to cover?S1
Speaker 1
00:59
Oh, wow, what was I not able to cover? I think I could have done a better job at talking practically about what we can do in an organization. I think I explained a number of problems that all organizations face and how that relates to health and safety and I hope that people found some of the suggestions useful, but you know maybe we can talk a little bit more about you know next steps for people.S2
Speaker 2
01:24
So let's talk to some of the people that were not there because of course we have limited audience here, then we'll have some other people take a listen to this. So the global safety landscape trends, insights and prediction. Give me a quick overview on what you're covering.S1
Speaker 1
01:35
Yeah so when you get a topic that broad like global safety landscape then you really got permission to say anything you like. And I didn't want it to be too conceptual and too sort of abstract and forward-thinking so I actually went it was a new talk and I said what are some trends and insights about organizations today that we may not be talking enough about in health and safety, and Therefore, before we worry about what the future might hold, let's maybe try to deal a bit better with the present.S2
Speaker 2
02:05
So what are we not dealing with in the present currently from what you're seeing? Because you're traveling the world, let's not lie here in regards of all the things that you're seeing trend-wise.S1
Speaker 1
02:12
Yeah, so I really wanted to talk about work and risk. So I sort of talked through 4 different trends. 1 is the challenge of goal conflict.S1
Speaker 1
02:22
So this production versus safety and we, I don't think we talk about it as deeply as we need to talk about it. We just say get the job done on time, meet your budget, do it safely, if anything's unsafe you've got the authority to stop work and then we kind of just throw it over the fence and tell people figure it out and we've I think we've built very conflicted organizations around incompatible goals So I talked a little bit about that trend and how as health and safety we're probably not paying close enough attention to those conflicts in our organization and we see goal conflict play out in a number of major disasters. Do you want me to talk through the other 3?S2
Speaker 2
03:02
You can talk through the other 3, but before you go there, talk about these goals. These goals that don't kind of intertwine with each other. Because a lot of organizations face that.S2
Speaker 2
03:12
They have that problem where they go, okay, our goal setting is this. All of a sudden, a conflict comes in between there. And it's like, okay, how are we going to work this out? What are you seeing there?S2
Speaker 2
03:21
And then I'm gonna ask you the next 3, so don't worry about that, we're not gonna go too far away.S1
Speaker 1
03:24
No, no, so 1 of the, I guess, contributors that was linked to Texas City was a global cut in maintenance budgets, say 30%. We set our organizations a lot of objectives. The example that I spoke through today was a company that had this real customer-centricity program.S1
Speaker 1
03:46
They just started telling the organization that the customer is really, really important. What happened on this case is the customer had asked the workers to do something and because they knew that their company wanted them to satisfy the customer, they took on a whole bunch more safety risk and had a really bad accident. And it wasn't because they didn't want to follow a procedure, it was because the company had said, our customers are really important, so do what basically the customer needs and wants. And they put that over their own safety in this instance, thinking that's the decision that the company wanted them to make.S1
Speaker 1
04:19
So we roll a lot of goals into our organization around cost and schedule and and customer and we then just say figure it out.S2
Speaker 2
04:27
So do you look at it in some of these aspects that some of these goals are set at the cost of safety? Well, I... As a perspective, so...S1
Speaker 1
04:35
I don't think that companies do it intentionally. I just don't think companies think about the safety implications of decisions they're making which doesn't have an express safety thing. So for example, know an organization that set their supply chain team a target to reduce the amount of spend in the supply chain.S1
Speaker 1
04:53
And this is quite common. You go to your procurement function and you say, procure us the same amount of stuff cheaper. And they set that target and you're incentivizing your entire procurement department to go and find me cheaper people to work with. And that I think does come at a direct cost to safety.S1
Speaker 1
05:13
But the safety organization is kind of rarely involved in detail in some of that sort of organizational strategy and programs and targets and objectives for other functions. And you know, I think across finance and HR and projects and in that case procurement, I think we're actually setting teams to run hard counter to what we're trying to do in safety.S2
Speaker 2
05:40
Okay, very good. Okay, give me theS1
Speaker 1
05:42
second 1. Yeah, so the second 1 I sort of talked about was this idea that, you know, this Eric Holnagle idea that most things go right, and what Sydney Decker would say is, and we draw the wrong conclusion. So we're not hurting and killing people in our businesses every single day.S1
Speaker 1
05:56
We've got lots of green dashboards, lots of green audit reports, we've got 99.99% control verifications, it's all looking green, it's all looking good. And organizations have finite resources, management have a finite amount of time. So the logical thing to do is to manage by exception. So if there's no problem, there's no problem.S1
Speaker 1
06:16
So if this month safety looks green, I probably don't need to spend as much time on it. And we know that there's a lot going on in organisations when nothing's formally going on in our safety system. So I just sort of talked about how We need to understand how we keep a conversation about risk alive and how we focus on normal work and everyday work and making our organization more effective. As Rene Amelberti would say in his work on the paradox of almost totally safe systems is that when things stop going wrong, you need to find new ways to learn.S1
Speaker 1
06:50
SoS2
Speaker 2
06:51
you brought up Decker, and I have to ask you this because I've been wanting to ask you this question for a long period of time. How was it getting your PhD from him?S1
Speaker 1
06:58
Well, I didn't get it from him. There were some independent assessors that had a read of the work, but I was incredibly, I felt very privileged to have the opportunity to have someone of Sydney's, I guess, academic, intelligent just such an awesome intelligent guy. And I just couldn't miss that opportunity when he was in the same country as me and we were already doing some work together in the organisation I was working in at the time.S1
Speaker 1
07:30
I just said, hey look, can I come and do this with you? And gratefully he said yes. So it was good.S2
Speaker 2
07:38
How long ago was that, if you don't mind me asking?S1
Speaker 1
07:40
I started in 2015, 2014, and finished in 2018, 2019, around that sort of period.S2
Speaker 2
07:47
It's not old and it's not new. I mean you're kind of, we'll say at that midpoint, so when you went through the process were you already thinking PhD or was going into that PhD angle or was it because of because of Decker that you wanted to do it.S1
Speaker 1
08:01
Well, it was kind of interesting.S2
Speaker 2
08:03
Well, well, I'm sorry to get off subject, but it's such an intriguing question to me.S1
Speaker 1
08:07
So I think I think I think someone I would always I've done a couple of other higher education programs, a couple of master's degrees in that. And I sort of I was always interested in in sort of challenging myself and learning and a PhD was always something that was potentially on my radar but maybe I just never found you know a topic or a supervisor and actually at the time 1 of the examples I mentioned inside is I was working in an oil and gas company, oil price fell, I had nearly 300 people in my safety team, I had to turn those 300 people into 120 people. So a big restructure and cost out program and with my relationship with Sydney, I went to Sydney and I said, like, what does the literature say is the role of safety teams?S1
Speaker 1
08:50
You know, how many do companies need to have? What tasks and activities do they need to do? What capabilities should they have? How should we design and structure?S1
Speaker 1
08:56
Because I had a blank page but I had 170 people I had to leave. And I said, what's your opinion on the safety profession? And Sydney in his typical Sydney says is like, mostly useless, right? And if managers do what managers should do and engineers do what engineers should do and workers will listen to and do what workers should do, then the safety organisation is generally an unnecessary nuisance.S1
Speaker 1
09:21
That's kind of a bit of an existential crisis because I've been in safety since I left school and went to university. So I was like, surely not. If I could put 120 people into my organization surely there's some value that I could could do that and so that that was the topic for the PhD that's why I actually went to try to a little bit justify my career in some ways but I was very open to the possibility that I would conclude that the function is not required, but thankfully I didn't.S2
Speaker 2
09:50
I'm glad that you didn't. I mean, look at where you're at now. Exactly right.S2
Speaker 2
09:54
So let's continue. So tell me about the third topic here. Yeah, so the third topic. And sorry once again for interrupting and changing midstream, but I'm so intrigued by it.S1
Speaker 1
10:03
Not at all. I talked about misunderstanding risk. Fundamentally, as organizations, we misunderstand risk.S1
Speaker 1
10:10
We have all of our risk tools, risk matrices, risk registers, we list the risk and we list some controls and we put it in a green box and we review it every 6 or 12 months. Russ Merson for 30 years ago was talking about the dynamic modelling problem of risk and our static assessments don't match the real world dynamic risk situation that we all find ourselves in every day. So organisations and managers sort of conflate they actually think that their risk is imagined on their risk register is actually risk as it actually exists in their in their business And then when you combine that with workers who have sort of a natural overconfidence bias in their ability to control risks, particularly workers who have a lot of expertise in their work, they might, in the example I gave in was electrical workers who have been electricians for 30 years and they work with electrical hazards all the time, they have a high level of confidence in their own ability to control that risk. So what tends to happen in organisations, 1 of the trends that I wanted to talk to the group about today was that fundamentally both your management and your frontline workforce are going to through no fault of their own believe that there is less risk in the business than there actually is for safety and then we sort of close our minds off to the possibility that our organizations could actually be really quite unsafe.S2
Speaker 2
11:34
Give me topic 4. I'm trying to jill them all together as you're going through them.S1
Speaker 1
11:39
So number 4, yes. So that was the misunderstanding of risk. And number 4 was around the filtering of information that goes on.S1
Speaker 1
11:45
So, you know, we structure our business and we talked, I talked a little bit about that, you know, with safety being and the incompatible goals discussion that we just had. You know, safety looks after safety training and safety investigations and safety things and we design our organisations into silos and functions and levels. As I said, by the time information flows from the frontline through 7 levels of management, gets put onto a PowerPoint, gets reviewed by 15 different people, that PowerPoint, and talk across, most of the information that we're dealing with every day about work is a fantasy, right? It probably doesn't bear much actual resemblance to the work that goes on.S1
Speaker 1
12:28
And so, you know, as I said, If we're relying on getting our information through formal information flows, we've got to be very open to the fact that the information we're getting is mostly likely to be incorrect. So by the time everyone puts a positive spin on something and everyone operates on a need to know basis and gets to decide who I tell, what I tell, when I tell. So I really talked about the importance of, you know, direct contact and a questioning culture and really trying to test a lot of our assumptions about work because, like the same with the most things go well example you know the information that flows through the formal channels is yeah very very unlikely to match the reality of work.S2
Speaker 2
13:15
So when you're looking at this and you start going, okay, you need to question the things that are in front of you What do you think that where the middle management comes in in particular because I'm sure you get to see a little bit of everything So the field levels are gonna bring you to their middle manager The middle manager is gonna take it to to the to the C suite people and You know that they're in that whole conundrum of, I'm representing the field, but I need to go to the C-suite people. How does that work out based on the stuff that you've seen, ofS1
Speaker 1
13:37
course? Yeah, there's actually some literature around this. I think Patrick Hudson supervised a PhD student couple of years ago, and they actually published a couple of papers where they called that middle management the clay layer of the organisation, this impermeable layer. And what this middle management layer is trying to do is exactly as you described, they actually want to put an umbrella over their operation which is I don't want people to know what the hell is going on in my operation.S1
Speaker 1
14:02
I will heavily filter information before it hits my executive. And then coming down, I actually want to protect my operation, so I'll nod and smile and say all the right things, but I don't want the CEO reaching down into my or my senior management. So they call it this clay layer of middle management where information doesn't go up and information doesn't go down. But they actually really become some of the most critical stakeholders to making progress in safety because they are the ones, like you said, that can make those connections between organizational decision-making and operational needs.S1
Speaker 1
14:32
But to do that, they have to be quite humble and quite vulnerable to put their hand up and say, I need help over here, or this is what's actually going on.S2
Speaker 2
14:40
Are you seeing a lot of people requesting that help?S1
Speaker 1
14:43
No, it's not a very human thing to do. And our organizations, I don't think, are as psychologically safe as they need to be for people to do that. You know, I said the example in the room today that very rarely do I hear a mid-manager, senior manager saying, I don't have things under control, I need help, I don't know, I don't fully understand what's going on in my business.S1
Speaker 1
15:03
I'm not sure I know what to do next. That I think is still seen in a lot of organizations as a very weak manager.S2
Speaker 2
15:12
So you're seeing a lot, you're hearing this term a lot. So I wanna bring it up, psychological safety. Yeah.S2
Speaker 2
15:17
When you started hearing that, I mostly heard it around COVID. When did you start hearing it?S1
Speaker 1
15:22
Yeah, I sort of was familiar with some of Amy Edmondson's work just before, sort of before COVID, couple of very successful books, The Fearless Organization was probably the first book that I read about it. You know, I was sort of even during my PhD talking a lot after doing, I wrote a paper with Dave Woods at Ohio State and we talked a lot about open communication, this idea that an organization is safer when information flows fast and free, right? If someone knows something then how do I get that piece of knowledge heard and understood by someone who's got the authority to make an appropriate decision around that?S1
Speaker 1
16:00
So you might use the challenger over an example of, you know, the engineering team and how does that then get to like the mission command and get a decision to be made. Right. And so that I always just talked about fast and free flow of information. I talked about open communication and I guess what the psychological safety field has done is sort of explain what are some of the conditions and enablers and ways of trying to create more of that in businesses.S2
Speaker 2
16:27
So when you go out now and you're able to talk to people about this, Is this something that you bring up or is it brought up to you in regards to psychological safety as part of the teachings that you're doing?S1
Speaker 1
16:37
Yeah, I don't talk too much about it directly. I try to steer away from things that I don't feel that I have the expertise to talk a lot about. So mostly when that comes up, I will point people in the direction of, like I said, of useful things to read about it.S1
Speaker 1
16:52
But I will talk a lot about the importance of open communication, like in the conversation we've had about what discussion do you have when you get a green dashboard? What does a question in culture of management kind of look like, what do we do about the filtering of information and having more direct interactions at multiple levels in the business. So I'll talk a little bit about the mechanics of what I think needs to happen in organizations, but not so much about the theory.S2
Speaker 2
17:16
Do you have a person that you go, hey, this is a good, besides the reading, is there a person that you point to that goes, okay, outside, if you were looking for outside theory, this is the person to go to. And I'm not trying to put any kind of pressure on you and you need to give me a name, but is there somebody that you say,S1
Speaker 1
17:30
in relationS2
Speaker 2
17:31
to psychological safety?S1
Speaker 1
17:32
Well, like I mentioned, I'm a point to Amy Edmondson's work. But I think Todd's done some great stuff with his books on better questions. I think the 4Ds books from Brents and Josh and Jeff and that.S1
Speaker 1
17:46
I think we're all... There's a number of people who are starting to talk in a very useful, constructive way about how to open up learning in businesses. And that's what we're talking about here, right? It's not communication for communication's sake.S1
Speaker 1
18:02
It's psychologically safe environments to promote communication that helps us learn and ultimately make improvements before we're just counting the number of people thatS2
Speaker 2
18:11
we hurt. So do you look at this at any of the combination of where you used to hear that term centricity, the company centricity on how, oh, we can talk and we can communicate because we have centricity within our organization, within our customer centricity. Do you see any tie-ins to that?S2
Speaker 2
18:27
Because I'm gonna say, I mean, it looks like there is some language that is similar. I'm not gonna say exactly the same, but there is some similarities toS1
Speaker 1
18:33
it. Look, I think there's a lot of language bullshit in organizations, right? Like exactly what you're saying, collaboration, synergy, all these things. And we've been working on teaming and collaboration for 2 decades, right?S1
Speaker 1
18:49
And we've used all this language in and around our organisations in the past. And psychological safety may just be another term, which is why I try to like to talk quite frankly about what we're talking about here is open communication, where if you can have an environment where any person feels comfortable to say anything to anyone at any time in the interest of a better understanding of the organization and ultimately making improvement, then you're going a long way to being a safe organization. If I've got any barriers to people saying what they think someone should hear because of for whatever reason, then I might have problems.S2
Speaker 2
19:27
So as you're going through this whole thing and you're able to talk to all these different organizations, what are the biggest things that come out related to communication? Where are they seeing most of their, only if you can talk about it, of course.S1
Speaker 1
19:39
Yeah, look, IS2
Speaker 2
19:40
think- And give me name of companies, no,S1
Speaker 1
19:43
I'm joking. Look, I mentioned in the room here today that so much communication that we do in organisations is broadcast style communication. We do it in safety all the time, even when we say we're going to share lessons learned around a business, we're actually just sending a safety alert.S1
Speaker 1
19:59
It's not learning, it's not communication, it's barely compliance. What I see is that organisations are trying to figure out how do I get a two-way flow of information? And the cop-out is usually we need a reporting culture, you know, we need workers to report things. And, you know, I think there's a space for learning teams and field interactions and a whole bunch of tools we can use.S1
Speaker 1
20:21
But the biggest challenge I'm seeing with organizations, how can I at scale flow information, get a feedback loop? In complex systems, we want feedback loops. So how can I get that feedback loop really working in my organization?S2
Speaker 2
20:35
So when you start talking about feedback loops, how do you start doing the process or how do you communicate the process for them to start establishing it?S1
Speaker 1
20:40
Yeah, so actually...S2
Speaker 2
20:41
And I'm not trying to put all kinds of weird questions out there, I just want to have a better understanding on how you do the process.S1
Speaker 1
20:45
Yeah, so I think it's understanding what you have available and how you do things. So I'll use the example about the learning from incidents, right? And so 1 way of us doing 1 communication approach, which I mentioned before, is just here's what happened, Here's the causes of what happens, here's the actions we need you to take.S1
Speaker 1
21:02
That's a broadcast, send the same piece of information to every single site and get them to do the same stuff. There's not a learning process. So we think about what would feedback look like in that scenario. So with a few organisations, we've designed them a learning process where we send them a scenario of the event and we just ask them a bunch of questions.S1
Speaker 1
21:22
We say, get in a group of people together at your site, read through this scenario and discuss how could this scenario play out on our site? If this scenario played on our site, what would be the likely things that would would cause it? Now are we worried about this issue or concerned? How likely do we think this scenario could be of happening and what do we think we need to do on our site to either better understand this or to improve our situation.S1
Speaker 1
21:49
And then feeding that all back into the system. So now I've got all these sites who have told me in their local context how this situation potentially becomes relevant to them. I've asked them what they think needs to be done to understand or improve. I've created this kind of two-way flow.S1
Speaker 1
22:06
Here's a scenario, and now you tell me a whole bunch of stuff. And with CITC organization now, I really go, wow. Actually, now I've got 100 sites, and I've got this wealth of contextual information and risk information and now I can start to connect patterns in my organization and do something with it as opposed to, I sent out these actions, 60% of sites have done them, but I haven't learned anything. So what we try to do is I think start with trying to redesign processes and build in feedback loops and learning loops in processes that companies are already doing, whether it's investigations or auditing or leadership visits or anything like that.S1
Speaker 1
22:40
No, IS2
Speaker 2
22:40
mean, the way that you talk about it is not doing the traditional format of not the audit. It's not the whole thing that people were doing before. So in talking about versions of communication, I need to bring this up.S2
Speaker 2
22:51
You recently started communicating in a new format and I want to bring this up in regards of you are now co-hosting another podcast. How did this come about? And tell people the concept of it because I think it's genius.S1
Speaker 1
23:05
All right, well today, I think episode 4 of the Punk Rock Safety podcast came out, so go find it. So there's a lot of cool people in health and safety. We may not have the best brand as a profession, but there's a hell of a lot of really cool people all over the world.S1
Speaker 1
23:24
And a lot of us are sort of at a similar sort of midlife age and all this, so where we were sort of growing up in the 90s or thereabouts. And many of us before we got into safety had some level of misspent youth. So you know, you just sort of find people at different conferences. And so, you know, a couple of close friends of mine now that I've met through the profession, both US based, Ron Gant and Ben Goodhart, We just liked hanging out and talking shit and on some parts talking quite intellectual safety conversations and other parts just basically taking the piss out of each other a little bit as well.S1
Speaker 1
24:02
Ben had suggested this idea that he just had this conceptual idea that, you know, how we should approach safety is a little bit like the punk rock movement in the 90s, which is, you know, make do with what you've got, try different things, experiment. If people like it, they like it. If they don't, they don't. Don't take yourself too seriously.S1
Speaker 1
24:17
Try and have a bit of fun doing it. And so he'd actually, Ben had actually already taken the punkrocksafety.com domain about it 8 or 10 years ago. But when he was down in Wollongong, we talked about it and we roped Ron in and so we launched this podcast. It's really kind of an excuse every 2 weeks for us to get online and press record and go.S1
Speaker 1
24:39
But a number of people here at this conference and a number of people have sort of connected and who I guess are just appreciating a little bit of maybe fun, just not taking ourselves too seriously.S2
Speaker 2
24:54
Well, I mean, I think it's such a different approach because it's not just straight about safety. It's a little bit about everything that goes on in the world in regards to when you're having the conversation. So I've been pretty intrigued by taking a listen to it.S2
Speaker 2
25:03
And I didn't know if it kind of, if it kind of sped out of you doing safety stock, because let's not undersell what you did there. I, this was probably the best party that I've ever been to at a safety event in any conference event overall.S1
Speaker 1
25:17
How did you come up with the idea? Well, that's a, I'm not sure that's a high bar to jump over, right?S2
Speaker 2
25:23
Well, okay, the standard's very high compared to other events that you can go to. Let's put it that way.S1
Speaker 1
25:28
Well, look, I think, so what we did is we had a bit of a music festival, So we got sort of 4 or 5 bands. We got a stage and we got some food trucks and an open bar. And we said, look, at all the conferences you go to, you're sort of sitting around at round tables and having a sort of a chicken and meat type of sort of alternate plate setting and a bit of wine and...S2
Speaker 2
25:48
Which you really need to describe that to people because they've never experienced this alternate plate thing. It is a hot mess because this is not done in the US. Oh really?S2
Speaker 2
25:56
No, no, when I was in Australia, that was the first time I'd ever seen that.S1
Speaker 1
25:59
Wow, there you go. Oh Well, that's sort of like at a big event, you know, when a company's got to try to figure out how much food to buy, they'll say how many people are coming, we'll do 2 main courses. Why don't we eat chicken or fish and why not be meat?S1
Speaker 1
26:09
And then they just alternate. It's just like you, you, you, you, and they just give you what they give in front of you. And the way it's meant to work socially is at the table, you then figure it out. You say, oh, does anyone want the meat?S1
Speaker 1
26:20
Because I'm a vegetarian. Then you've got toS2
Speaker 2
26:21
find- DoS1
Speaker 1
26:21
you want to trade? You've got to, you've literally, you literally pass the plates around and figure out, and you try to get to a situation where the people who want the chicken or the fish have got the chicken or the fish, and the people who want the meat have got the meat. And I didn't realize that wasn't a done thing.S1
Speaker 1
26:34
So, but anyway, so, so Safety Stock, which is something that we said, look, if we're going to run an innovative conference, then let's think about how we could do this differently. And again, this is a bit like the punk rock safety thing. You know, we've all we all don't mind a music festival. We've all been to a few, you know, warped tours or big days out or something in our in our life.S1
Speaker 1
26:54
So then, you know, Karen Bonifant, who's sort of our chair of our organizing committee, has a lot of really strong connections into the local music scene and the international music scene and off we went.S2
Speaker 2
27:03
And she travels quite a bit to go see these music scenes.S1
Speaker 1
27:07
So off we went.S2
Speaker 2
27:08
She talks about them quite frequently. So let me ask you about this. So now we're at the Energy Safety Canada Conference.S2
Speaker 2
27:12
What doS1
Speaker 1
27:12
you think?S2
Speaker 2
27:14
What do you think?S1
Speaker 1
27:15
I mean, I love it. I was fortunate to be here 2 years ago, just straight after COVID. And so I sort of got a little bit of the conversation 2 years ago and picking it back up now.S1
Speaker 1
27:26
And I've been sort of seeing the work of the Energy Safety Canada Institute. And I have to say, like, thoroughly impressed at their foresight and their vision, Murray and Gordon and the team. To be an industry association that is not just trying but is being so progressive is very uncommon. It's very uncommon.S1
Speaker 1
27:46
I actually can't think of another industry association anywhere in my travels in the world that is openly and strategically being so progressive. Which is wonderful because these institutions do have influence over industry practices soS2
Speaker 2
28:05
I love it. Now this is my second year in a row being here and I think it's beautiful what they have actually organized and what they're actually trying to create out there especially when you sit and talk to Gordon how he explains it on what they're doing overall is just amazing. So if people want to find out more information on what you have going on, where can they go?S1
Speaker 1
28:21
Look, I'm not... Well, punk rock safety podcast, I think there's a... There's probably an email address there or something that'll go to Ben.S1
Speaker 1
28:29
Look, I think a direct message on LinkedIn is usually the easiest way. So throw a connection my way and then just send me a message is probably the easiest way. But judging by the amount of people who try to contact me and try and help me with my finances or something, I don't think my contact details are that hard to find.S2
Speaker 2
28:48
To get a hold of. Also, do you have anything coming up that's open to the public?S1
Speaker 1
28:52
Oh, I'm going to be in Vegas at the Community of Human and Organizational Learning Conference in the middle of June. So that'll be the next chance. Actually, Ben and Ron and I are doing a fireside punk rock safety chat at Inveius.S1
Speaker 1
29:07
That stands to be interesting, to say the least.S2
Speaker 2
29:11
Now, I'm wondering how that's going to turn out. I'm very intrigued already. I'm incredibly curiousS1
Speaker 1
29:15
and incredibly concerned at the level of trust from the organizers to...S2
Speaker 2
29:19
To allow you to do so.S1
Speaker 1
29:21
But so that's coming up. I'm bouncing around a few other places in Europe and the US. I mean, yeah.S1
Speaker 1
29:30
Actually I've got tickets to Denver, Minnesota in, well, in Denver, the Nuggets game this Saturday night. So I'll be in ball arena. So anyone there?S2
Speaker 2
29:42
Absolutely. Well, David, I really do appreciate you actually coming by and doing this because I know you just came off the stage and I know you have another commitment. So I'm going to cut it short for you, but I really do appreciate your time.S1
Speaker 1
29:50
Thanks, Jay. Well done.S2
Speaker 2
29:51
Thank you.S3
Speaker 3
29:55
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available, as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information.S3
Speaker 3
30:15
Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, mechanical, electronic, recording, or otherwise without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, Jay Allen.Speaker 100:05This show is brought to you by Safety FM.S2
Speaker 2
00:09
Okay, here we are coming to you live from Energy Safety Canada 2024. That's what's happening. Dave Proven, right directly off the stage.S2
Speaker 2
00:17
How are you?S1
Speaker 1
00:18
Good Jay, good. It's wonderful to be back in Canada and to have an opportunity to talk to the community here and to speak with you now.S2
Speaker 2
00:24
Well, here's the thing. You know that I have had this plan like several times and it has never worked out. We have never managed to pull this off.S2
Speaker 2
00:31
And I feel like an asshole to be honest with you from last time because I owe this to you from all in 1S1
Speaker 1
00:36
yeah well I tend to get distracted I tend to tend to forget commitments that I make soS2
Speaker 2
00:44
it was my fault I didn't bring you to the bridal suite. Let's make sure that we remember where I was at.S1
Speaker 1
00:49
Well, Jay, a wise person told me that blame fixes nothing.S2
Speaker 2
00:53
I've heard that once or twice. So you just got off the stage. What were you not able to cover that you wanted to cover?S1
Speaker 1
00:59
Oh, wow, what was I not able to cover? I think I could have done a better job at talking practically about what we can do in an organization. I think I explained a number of problems that all organizations face and how that relates to health and safety and I hope that people found some of the suggestions useful, but you know maybe we can talk a little bit more about you know next steps for people.S2
Speaker 2
01:24
So let's talk to some of the people that were not there because of course we have limited audience here, then we'll have some other people take a listen to this. So the global safety landscape trends, insights and prediction. Give me a quick overview on what you're covering.S1
Speaker 1
01:35
Yeah so when you get a topic that broad like global safety landscape then you really got permission to say anything you like. And I didn't want it to be too conceptual and too sort of abstract and forward-thinking so I actually went it was a new talk and I said what are some trends and insights about organizations today that we may not be talking enough about in health and safety, and Therefore, before we worry about what the future might hold, let's maybe try to deal a bit better with the present.S2
Speaker 2
02:05
So what are we not dealing with in the present currently from what you're seeing? Because you're traveling the world, let's not lie here in regards of all the things that you're seeing trend-wise.S1
Speaker 1
02:12
Yeah, so I really wanted to talk about work and risk. So I sort of talked through 4 different trends. 1 is the challenge of goal conflict.S1
Speaker 1
02:22
So this production versus safety and we, I don't think we talk about it as deeply as we need to talk about it. We just say get the job done on time, meet your budget, do it safely, if anything's unsafe you've got the authority to stop work and then we kind of just throw it over the fence and tell people figure it out and we've I think we've built very conflicted organizations around incompatible goals So I talked a little bit about that trend and how as health and safety we're probably not paying close enough attention to those conflicts in our organization and we see goal conflict play out in a number of major disasters. Do you want me to talk through the other 3?S2
Speaker 2
03:02
You can talk through the other 3, but before you go there, talk about these goals. These goals that don't kind of intertwine with each other. Because a lot of organizations face that.S2
Speaker 2
03:12
They have that problem where they go, okay, our goal setting is this. All of a sudden, a conflict comes in between there. And it's like, okay, how are we going to work this out? What are you seeing there?S2
Speaker 2
03:21
And then I'm gonna ask you the next 3, so don't worry about that, we're not gonna go too far away.S1
Speaker 1
03:24
No, no, so 1 of the, I guess, contributors that was linked to Texas City was a global cut in maintenance budgets, say 30%. We set our organizations a lot of objectives. The example that I spoke through today was a company that had this real customer-centricity program.S1
Speaker 1
03:46
They just started telling the organization that the customer is really, really important. What happened on this case is the customer had asked the workers to do something and because they knew that their company wanted them to satisfy the customer, they took on a whole bunch more safety risk and had a really bad accident. And it wasn't because they didn't want to follow a procedure, it was because the company had said, our customers are really important, so do what basically the customer needs and wants. And they put that over their own safety in this instance, thinking that's the decision that the company wanted them to make.S1
Speaker 1
04:19
So we roll a lot of goals into our organization around cost and schedule and and customer and we then just say figure it out.S2
Speaker 2
04:27
So do you look at it in some of these aspects that some of these goals are set at the cost of safety? Well, I... As a perspective, so...S1
Speaker 1
04:35
I don't think that companies do it intentionally. I just don't think companies think about the safety implications of decisions they're making which doesn't have an express safety thing. So for example, know an organization that set their supply chain team a target to reduce the amount of spend in the supply chain.S1
Speaker 1
04:53
And this is quite common. You go to your procurement function and you say, procure us the same amount of stuff cheaper. And they set that target and you're incentivizing your entire procurement department to go and find me cheaper people to work with. And that I think does come at a direct cost to safety.S1
Speaker 1
05:13
But the safety organization is kind of rarely involved in detail in some of that sort of organizational strategy and programs and targets and objectives for other functions. And you know, I think across finance and HR and projects and in that case procurement, I think we're actually setting teams to run hard counter to what we're trying to do in safety.S2
Speaker 2
05:40
Okay, very good. Okay, give me theS1
Speaker 1
05:42
second 1. Yeah, so the second 1 I sort of talked about was this idea that, you know, this Eric Holnagle idea that most things go right, and what Sydney Decker would say is, and we draw the wrong conclusion. So we're not hurting and killing people in our businesses every single day.S1
Speaker 1
05:56
We've got lots of green dashboards, lots of green audit reports, we've got 99.99% control verifications, it's all looking green, it's all looking good. And organizations have finite resources, management have a finite amount of time. So the logical thing to do is to manage by exception. So if there's no problem, there's no problem.S1
Speaker 1
06:16
So if this month safety looks green, I probably don't need to spend as much time on it. And we know that there's a lot going on in organisations when nothing's formally going on in our safety system. So I just sort of talked about how We need to understand how we keep a conversation about risk alive and how we focus on normal work and everyday work and making our organization more effective. As Rene Amelberti would say in his work on the paradox of almost totally safe systems is that when things stop going wrong, you need to find new ways to learn.S1
Speaker 1
06:50
SoS2
Speaker 2
06:51
you brought up Decker, and I have to ask you this because I've been wanting to ask you this question for a long period of time. How was it getting your PhD from him?S1
Speaker 1
06:58
Well, I didn't get it from him. There were some independent assessors that had a read of the work, but I was incredibly, I felt very privileged to have the opportunity to have someone of Sydney's, I guess, academic, intelligent just such an awesome intelligent guy. And I just couldn't miss that opportunity when he was in the same country as me and we were already doing some work together in the organisation I was working in at the time.S1
Speaker 1
07:30
I just said, hey look, can I come and do this with you? And gratefully he said yes. So it was good.S2
Speaker 2
07:38
How long ago was that, if you don't mind me asking?S1
Speaker 1
07:40
I started in 2015, 2014, and finished in 2018, 2019, around that sort of period.S2
Speaker 2
07:47
It's not old and it's not new. I mean you're kind of, we'll say at that midpoint, so when you went through the process were you already thinking PhD or was going into that PhD angle or was it because of because of Decker that you wanted to do it.S1
Speaker 1
08:01
Well, it was kind of interesting.S2
Speaker 2
08:03
Well, well, I'm sorry to get off subject, but it's such an intriguing question to me.S1
Speaker 1
08:07
So I think I think I think someone I would always I've done a couple of other higher education programs, a couple of master's degrees in that. And I sort of I was always interested in in sort of challenging myself and learning and a PhD was always something that was potentially on my radar but maybe I just never found you know a topic or a supervisor and actually at the time 1 of the examples I mentioned inside is I was working in an oil and gas company, oil price fell, I had nearly 300 people in my safety team, I had to turn those 300 people into 120 people. So a big restructure and cost out program and with my relationship with Sydney, I went to Sydney and I said, like, what does the literature say is the role of safety teams?S1
Speaker 1
08:50
You know, how many do companies need to have? What tasks and activities do they need to do? What capabilities should they have? How should we design and structure?S1
Speaker 1
08:56
Because I had a blank page but I had 170 people I had to leave. And I said, what's your opinion on the safety profession? And Sydney in his typical Sydney says is like, mostly useless, right? And if managers do what managers should do and engineers do what engineers should do and workers will listen to and do what workers should do, then the safety organisation is generally an unnecessary nuisance.S1
Speaker 1
09:21
That's kind of a bit of an existential crisis because I've been in safety since I left school and went to university. So I was like, surely not. If I could put 120 people into my organization surely there's some value that I could could do that and so that that was the topic for the PhD that's why I actually went to try to a little bit justify my career in some ways but I was very open to the possibility that I would conclude that the function is not required, but thankfully I didn't.S2
Speaker 2
09:50
I'm glad that you didn't. I mean, look at where you're at now. Exactly right.S2
Speaker 2
09:54
So let's continue. So tell me about the third topic here. Yeah, so the third topic. And sorry once again for interrupting and changing midstream, but I'm so intrigued by it.S1
Speaker 1
10:03
Not at all. I talked about misunderstanding risk. Fundamentally, as organizations, we misunderstand risk.S1
Speaker 1
10:10
We have all of our risk tools, risk matrices, risk registers, we list the risk and we list some controls and we put it in a green box and we review it every 6 or 12 months. Russ Merson for 30 years ago was talking about the dynamic modelling problem of risk and our static assessments don't match the real world dynamic risk situation that we all find ourselves in every day. So organisations and managers sort of conflate they actually think that their risk is imagined on their risk register is actually risk as it actually exists in their in their business And then when you combine that with workers who have sort of a natural overconfidence bias in their ability to control risks, particularly workers who have a lot of expertise in their work, they might, in the example I gave in was electrical workers who have been electricians for 30 years and they work with electrical hazards all the time, they have a high level of confidence in their own ability to control that risk. So what tends to happen in organisations, 1 of the trends that I wanted to talk to the group about today was that fundamentally both your management and your frontline workforce are going to through no fault of their own believe that there is less risk in the business than there actually is for safety and then we sort of close our minds off to the possibility that our organizations could actually be really quite unsafe.S2
Speaker 2
11:34
Give me topic 4. I'm trying to jill them all together as you're going through them.S1
Speaker 1
11:39
So number 4, yes. So that was the misunderstanding of risk. And number 4 was around the filtering of information that goes on.S1
Speaker 1
11:45
So, you know, we structure our business and we talked, I talked a little bit about that, you know, with safety being and the incompatible goals discussion that we just had. You know, safety looks after safety training and safety investigations and safety things and we design our organisations into silos and functions and levels. As I said, by the time information flows from the frontline through 7 levels of management, gets put onto a PowerPoint, gets reviewed by 15 different people, that PowerPoint, and talk across, most of the information that we're dealing with every day about work is a fantasy, right? It probably doesn't bear much actual resemblance to the work that goes on.S1
Speaker 1
12:28
And so, you know, as I said, If we're relying on getting our information through formal information flows, we've got to be very open to the fact that the information we're getting is mostly likely to be incorrect. So by the time everyone puts a positive spin on something and everyone operates on a need to know basis and gets to decide who I tell, what I tell, when I tell. So I really talked about the importance of, you know, direct contact and a questioning culture and really trying to test a lot of our assumptions about work because, like the same with the most things go well example you know the information that flows through the formal channels is yeah very very unlikely to match the reality of work.S2
Speaker 2
13:15
So when you're looking at this and you start going, okay, you need to question the things that are in front of you What do you think that where the middle management comes in in particular because I'm sure you get to see a little bit of everything So the field levels are gonna bring you to their middle manager The middle manager is gonna take it to to the to the C suite people and You know that they're in that whole conundrum of, I'm representing the field, but I need to go to the C-suite people. How does that work out based on the stuff that you've seen, ofS1
Speaker 1
13:37
course? Yeah, there's actually some literature around this. I think Patrick Hudson supervised a PhD student couple of years ago, and they actually published a couple of papers where they called that middle management the clay layer of the organisation, this impermeable layer. And what this middle management layer is trying to do is exactly as you described, they actually want to put an umbrella over their operation which is I don't want people to know what the hell is going on in my operation.S1
Speaker 1
14:02
I will heavily filter information before it hits my executive. And then coming down, I actually want to protect my operation, so I'll nod and smile and say all the right things, but I don't want the CEO reaching down into my or my senior management. So they call it this clay layer of middle management where information doesn't go up and information doesn't go down. But they actually really become some of the most critical stakeholders to making progress in safety because they are the ones, like you said, that can make those connections between organizational decision-making and operational needs.S1
Speaker 1
14:32
But to do that, they have to be quite humble and quite vulnerable to put their hand up and say, I need help over here, or this is what's actually going on.S2
Speaker 2
14:40
Are you seeing a lot of people requesting that help?S1
Speaker 1
14:43
No, it's not a very human thing to do. And our organizations, I don't think, are as psychologically safe as they need to be for people to do that. You know, I said the example in the room today that very rarely do I hear a mid-manager, senior manager saying, I don't have things under control, I need help, I don't know, I don't fully understand what's going on in my business.S1
Speaker 1
15:03
I'm not sure I know what to do next. That I think is still seen in a lot of organizations as a very weak manager.S2
Speaker 2
15:12
So you're seeing a lot, you're hearing this term a lot. So I wanna bring it up, psychological safety. Yeah.S2
Speaker 2
15:17
When you started hearing that, I mostly heard it around COVID. When did you start hearing it?S1
Speaker 1
15:22
Yeah, I sort of was familiar with some of Amy Edmondson's work just before, sort of before COVID, couple of very successful books, The Fearless Organization was probably the first book that I read about it. You know, I was sort of even during my PhD talking a lot after doing, I wrote a paper with Dave Woods at Ohio State and we talked a lot about open communication, this idea that an organization is safer when information flows fast and free, right? If someone knows something then how do I get that piece of knowledge heard and understood by someone who's got the authority to make an appropriate decision around that?S1
Speaker 1
16:00
So you might use the challenger over an example of, you know, the engineering team and how does that then get to like the mission command and get a decision to be made. Right. And so that I always just talked about fast and free flow of information. I talked about open communication and I guess what the psychological safety field has done is sort of explain what are some of the conditions and enablers and ways of trying to create more of that in businesses.S2
Speaker 2
16:27
So when you go out now and you're able to talk to people about this, Is this something that you bring up or is it brought up to you in regards to psychological safety as part of the teachings that you're doing?S1
Speaker 1
16:37
Yeah, I don't talk too much about it directly. I try to steer away from things that I don't feel that I have the expertise to talk a lot about. So mostly when that comes up, I will point people in the direction of, like I said, of useful things to read about it.S1
Speaker 1
16:52
But I will talk a lot about the importance of open communication, like in the conversation we've had about what discussion do you have when you get a green dashboard? What does a question in culture of management kind of look like, what do we do about the filtering of information and having more direct interactions at multiple levels in the business. So I'll talk a little bit about the mechanics of what I think needs to happen in organizations, but not so much about the theory.S2
Speaker 2
17:16
Do you have a person that you go, hey, this is a good, besides the reading, is there a person that you point to that goes, okay, outside, if you were looking for outside theory, this is the person to go to. And I'm not trying to put any kind of pressure on you and you need to give me a name, but is there somebody that you say,S1
Speaker 1
17:30
in relationS2
Speaker 2
17:31
to psychological safety?S1
Speaker 1
17:32
Well, like I mentioned, I'm a point to Amy Edmondson's work. But I think Todd's done some great stuff with his books on better questions. I think the 4Ds books from Brents and Josh and Jeff and that.S1
Speaker 1
17:46
I think we're all... There's a number of people who are starting to talk in a very useful, constructive way about how to open up learning in businesses. And that's what we're talking about here, right? It's not communication for communication's sake.S1
Speaker 1
18:02
It's psychologically safe environments to promote communication that helps us learn and ultimately make improvements before we're just counting the number of people thatS2
Speaker 2
18:11
we hurt. So do you look at this at any of the combination of where you used to hear that term centricity, the company centricity on how, oh, we can talk and we can communicate because we have centricity within our organization, within our customer centricity. Do you see any tie-ins to that?S2
Speaker 2
18:27
Because I'm gonna say, I mean, it looks like there is some language that is similar. I'm not gonna say exactly the same, but there is some similarities toS1
Speaker 1
18:33
it. Look, I think there's a lot of language bullshit in organizations, right? Like exactly what you're saying, collaboration, synergy, all these things. And we've been working on teaming and collaboration for 2 decades, right?S1
Speaker 1
18:49
And we've used all this language in and around our organisations in the past. And psychological safety may just be another term, which is why I try to like to talk quite frankly about what we're talking about here is open communication, where if you can have an environment where any person feels comfortable to say anything to anyone at any time in the interest of a better understanding of the organization and ultimately making improvement, then you're going a long way to being a safe organization. If I've got any barriers to people saying what they think someone should hear because of for whatever reason, then I might have problems.S2
Speaker 2
19:27
So as you're going through this whole thing and you're able to talk to all these different organizations, what are the biggest things that come out related to communication? Where are they seeing most of their, only if you can talk about it, of course.S1
Speaker 1
19:39
Yeah, look, IS2
Speaker 2
19:40
think- And give me name of companies, no,S1
Speaker 1
19:43
I'm joking. Look, I mentioned in the room here today that so much communication that we do in organisations is broadcast style communication. We do it in safety all the time, even when we say we're going to share lessons learned around a business, we're actually just sending a safety alert.S1
Speaker 1
19:59
It's not learning, it's not communication, it's barely compliance. What I see is that organisations are trying to figure out how do I get a two-way flow of information? And the cop-out is usually we need a reporting culture, you know, we need workers to report things. And, you know, I think there's a space for learning teams and field interactions and a whole bunch of tools we can use.S1
Speaker 1
20:21
But the biggest challenge I'm seeing with organizations, how can I at scale flow information, get a feedback loop? In complex systems, we want feedback loops. So how can I get that feedback loop really working in my organization?S2
Speaker 2
20:35
So when you start talking about feedback loops, how do you start doing the process or how do you communicate the process for them to start establishing it?S1
Speaker 1
20:40
Yeah, so actually...S2
Speaker 2
20:41
And I'm not trying to put all kinds of weird questions out there, I just want to have a better understanding on how you do the process.S1
Speaker 1
20:45
Yeah, so I think it's understanding what you have available and how you do things. So I'll use the example about the learning from incidents, right? And so 1 way of us doing 1 communication approach, which I mentioned before, is just here's what happened, Here's the causes of what happens, here's the actions we need you to take.S1
Speaker 1
21:02
That's a broadcast, send the same piece of information to every single site and get them to do the same stuff. There's not a learning process. So we think about what would feedback look like in that scenario. So with a few organisations, we've designed them a learning process where we send them a scenario of the event and we just ask them a bunch of questions.S1
Speaker 1
21:22
We say, get in a group of people together at your site, read through this scenario and discuss how could this scenario play out on our site? If this scenario played on our site, what would be the likely things that would would cause it? Now are we worried about this issue or concerned? How likely do we think this scenario could be of happening and what do we think we need to do on our site to either better understand this or to improve our situation.S1
Speaker 1
21:49
And then feeding that all back into the system. So now I've got all these sites who have told me in their local context how this situation potentially becomes relevant to them. I've asked them what they think needs to be done to understand or improve. I've created this kind of two-way flow.S1
Speaker 1
22:06
Here's a scenario, and now you tell me a whole bunch of stuff. And with CITC organization now, I really go, wow. Actually, now I've got 100 sites, and I've got this wealth of contextual information and risk information and now I can start to connect patterns in my organization and do something with it as opposed to, I sent out these actions, 60% of sites have done them, but I haven't learned anything. So what we try to do is I think start with trying to redesign processes and build in feedback loops and learning loops in processes that companies are already doing, whether it's investigations or auditing or leadership visits or anything like that.S1
Speaker 1
22:40
No, IS2
Speaker 2
22:40
mean, the way that you talk about it is not doing the traditional format of not the audit. It's not the whole thing that people were doing before. So in talking about versions of communication, I need to bring this up.S2
Speaker 2
22:51
You recently started communicating in a new format and I want to bring this up in regards of you are now co-hosting another podcast. How did this come about? And tell people the concept of it because I think it's genius.S1
Speaker 1
23:05
All right, well today, I think episode 4 of the Punk Rock Safety podcast came out, so go find it. So there's a lot of cool people in health and safety. We may not have the best brand as a profession, but there's a hell of a lot of really cool people all over the world.S1
Speaker 1
23:24
And a lot of us are sort of at a similar sort of midlife age and all this, so where we were sort of growing up in the 90s or thereabouts. And many of us before we got into safety had some level of misspent youth. So you know, you just sort of find people at different conferences. And so, you know, a couple of close friends of mine now that I've met through the profession, both US based, Ron Gant and Ben Goodhart, We just liked hanging out and talking shit and on some parts talking quite intellectual safety conversations and other parts just basically taking the piss out of each other a little bit as well.S1
Speaker 1
24:02
Ben had suggested this idea that he just had this conceptual idea that, you know, how we should approach safety is a little bit like the punk rock movement in the 90s, which is, you know, make do with what you've got, try different things, experiment. If people like it, they like it. If they don't, they don't. Don't take yourself too seriously.S1
Speaker 1
24:17
Try and have a bit of fun doing it. And so he'd actually, Ben had actually already taken the punkrocksafety.com domain about it 8 or 10 years ago. But when he was down in Wollongong, we talked about it and we roped Ron in and so we launched this podcast. It's really kind of an excuse every 2 weeks for us to get online and press record and go.S1
Speaker 1
24:39
But a number of people here at this conference and a number of people have sort of connected and who I guess are just appreciating a little bit of maybe fun, just not taking ourselves too seriously.S2
Speaker 2
24:54
Well, I mean, I think it's such a different approach because it's not just straight about safety. It's a little bit about everything that goes on in the world in regards to when you're having the conversation. So I've been pretty intrigued by taking a listen to it.S2
Speaker 2
25:03
And I didn't know if it kind of, if it kind of sped out of you doing safety stock, because let's not undersell what you did there. I, this was probably the best party that I've ever been to at a safety event in any conference event overall.S1
Speaker 1
25:17
How did you come up with the idea? Well, that's a, I'm not sure that's a high bar to jump over, right?S2
Speaker 2
25:23
Well, okay, the standard's very high compared to other events that you can go to. Let's put it that way.S1
Speaker 1
25:28
Well, look, I think, so what we did is we had a bit of a music festival, So we got sort of 4 or 5 bands. We got a stage and we got some food trucks and an open bar. And we said, look, at all the conferences you go to, you're sort of sitting around at round tables and having a sort of a chicken and meat type of sort of alternate plate setting and a bit of wine and...S2
Speaker 2
25:48
Which you really need to describe that to people because they've never experienced this alternate plate thing. It is a hot mess because this is not done in the US. Oh really?S2
Speaker 2
25:56
No, no, when I was in Australia, that was the first time I'd ever seen that.S1
Speaker 1
25:59
Wow, there you go. Oh Well, that's sort of like at a big event, you know, when a company's got to try to figure out how much food to buy, they'll say how many people are coming, we'll do 2 main courses. Why don't we eat chicken or fish and why not be meat?S1
Speaker 1
26:09
And then they just alternate. It's just like you, you, you, you, and they just give you what they give in front of you. And the way it's meant to work socially is at the table, you then figure it out. You say, oh, does anyone want the meat?S1
Speaker 1
26:20
Because I'm a vegetarian. Then you've got toS2
Speaker 2
26:21
find- DoS1
Speaker 1
26:21
you want to trade? You've got to, you've literally, you literally pass the plates around and figure out, and you try to get to a situation where the people who want the chicken or the fish have got the chicken or the fish, and the people who want the meat have got the meat. And I didn't realize that wasn't a done thing.S1
Speaker 1
26:34
So, but anyway, so, so Safety Stock, which is something that we said, look, if we're going to run an innovative conference, then let's think about how we could do this differently. And again, this is a bit like the punk rock safety thing. You know, we've all we all don't mind a music festival. We've all been to a few, you know, warped tours or big days out or something in our in our life.S1
Speaker 1
26:54
So then, you know, Karen Bonifant, who's sort of our chair of our organizing committee, has a lot of really strong connections into the local music scene and the international music scene and off we went.S2
Speaker 2
27:03
And she travels quite a bit to go see these music scenes.S1
Speaker 1
27:07
So off we went.S2
Speaker 2
27:08
She talks about them quite frequently. So let me ask you about this. So now we're at the Energy Safety Canada Conference.S2
Speaker 2
27:12
What doS1
Speaker 1
27:12
you think?S2
Speaker 2
27:14
What do you think?S1
Speaker 1
27:15
I mean, I love it. I was fortunate to be here 2 years ago, just straight after COVID. And so I sort of got a little bit of the conversation 2 years ago and picking it back up now.S1
Speaker 1
27:26
And I've been sort of seeing the work of the Energy Safety Canada Institute. And I have to say, like, thoroughly impressed at their foresight and their vision, Murray and Gordon and the team. To be an industry association that is not just trying but is being so progressive is very uncommon. It's very uncommon.S1
Speaker 1
27:46
I actually can't think of another industry association anywhere in my travels in the world that is openly and strategically being so progressive. Which is wonderful because these institutions do have influence over industry practices soS2
Speaker 2
28:05
I love it. Now this is my second year in a row being here and I think it's beautiful what they have actually organized and what they're actually trying to create out there especially when you sit and talk to Gordon how he explains it on what they're doing overall is just amazing. So if people want to find out more information on what you have going on, where can they go?S1
Speaker 1
28:21
Look, I'm not... Well, punk rock safety podcast, I think there's a... There's probably an email address there or something that'll go to Ben.S1
Speaker 1
28:29
Look, I think a direct message on LinkedIn is usually the easiest way. So throw a connection my way and then just send me a message is probably the easiest way. But judging by the amount of people who try to contact me and try and help me with my finances or something, I don't think my contact details are that hard to find.S2
Speaker 2
28:48
To get a hold of. Also, do you have anything coming up that's open to the public?S1
Speaker 1
28:52
Oh, I'm going to be in Vegas at the Community of Human and Organizational Learning Conference in the middle of June. So that'll be the next chance. Actually, Ben and Ron and I are doing a fireside punk rock safety chat at Inveius.S1
Speaker 1
29:07
That stands to be interesting, to say the least.S2
Speaker 2
29:11
Now, I'm wondering how that's going to turn out. I'm very intrigued already. I'm incredibly curiousS1
Speaker 1
29:15
and incredibly concerned at the level of trust from the organizers to...S2
Speaker 2
29:19
To allow you to do so.S1
Speaker 1
29:21
But so that's coming up. I'm bouncing around a few other places in Europe and the US. I mean, yeah.S1
Speaker 1
29:30
Actually I've got tickets to Denver, Minnesota in, well, in Denver, the Nuggets game this Saturday night. So I'll be in ball arena. So anyone there?S2
Speaker 2
29:42
Absolutely. Well, David, I really do appreciate you actually coming by and doing this because I know you just came off the stage and I know you have another commitment. So I'm going to cut it short for you, but I really do appreciate your time.S1
Speaker 1
29:50
Thanks, Jay. Well done.S2
Speaker 2
29:51
Thank you.S3
Speaker 3
29:55
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available, as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information.S3
Speaker 3
30:15
Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, mechanical, electronic, recording, or otherwise without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, Jay Allen.
Welcome to a special episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen, featuring Laurin Mooney, recorded live at the Energy Safety Canada Conference 2024 in Banff. Laurin Mooney is an innovator and thought leader, best known for developing the "speaking IN®" strategy, a revolutionary approach for leaders who recognize that traditional "speaking up" methods are ineffective and often leave teams feeling powerless to learn.In this episode, Laurin shares her expertise on creating conditions that enable individuals and organizations to thrive. Her "speaking IN®" strategy equips leaders with the keys to unlock learning, fostering an environment where it’s always safe and worthwhile to speak, and where leaders truly listen.A former Emergency Department Nurse and Hospital Supervisor, Laurin witnessed firsthand how uncertainty and unexpected events impact outcomes. This experience led her to High Reliability Organizing (HRO), where she translated complex principles into 9 practical questions that make HRO understandable and actionable for beginners.Throughout this engaging conversation, Laurin emphasizes the importance of changing the conversation first to make every other aspect of organizational safety and reliability easier. She provides actionable insights on how leaders can create a culture of psychological safety and continuous learning.Tune into this episode to explore Laurin’s innovative approaches and discover how the right conversations can transform your organization. Whether you're a seasoned leader or new to High Reliability Organizing, Laurin's strategies will help you create a more resilient and high-performing team.Join us on Safety FM with Jay Allen for this enlightening discussion that promises to change the way you think about leadership, communication, and organizational safety.
Welcome to another enlightening episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen, featuring an interview with Dr. Jake Mazulewicz, recorded live at the Energy Safety Canada Conference 2024 in Banff. Dr. Jake Mazulewicz is a renowned expert in Human and Organizational Performance (HOP), with over a decade of experience in the safety field for electric utilities. He has analyzed over 300 incidents and has served as a firefighter, EMT, and military paratrooper.In this episode, Dr. Mazulewicz shares insights from his compelling presentation, "How to Build Psychological Safety in High-Hazard Industries." Psychological safety is the cornerstone of the safest and most reliable teams globally. Dr. Mazulewicz explains what psychological safety is, its immense value, and why most leaders fail to create as much of it as they believe. He introduces three effective techniques that leaders can implement immediately to enhance psychological safety within their teams.Dr. Mazulewicz’s unique perspective on errors as signals rather than failures helps leaders address deeper problems, fostering a culture where everyone can work more reliably and safely. His practical approach to Human Performance (HOP) makes these concepts accessible and actionable for safety professionals across various industries.Join us in this insightful conversation as Dr. Mazulewicz delves into the importance of psychological safety and provides practical strategies to improve it within high-hazard industries. This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to enhance team reliability and safety through better leadership practices.Tune into Safety FM with Jay Allen for this impactful discussion that promises to transform your understanding of psychological safety and its critical role in high-hazard environments.
Welcome to another compelling episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen, recorded live at the Energy Safety Canada Conference 2024. In this episode, we feature Brent Sutton and Josh Bryant, two thought leaders in the field of safety and operational excellence. Brent Sutton, the founder of Learning Teams Inc., has made significant strides in improving health and safety outcomes through operational learning and the application of Human and Organizational Performance (HOP) principles. Known for his advocacy of doing safety "with people," Brent emphasizes the importance of involving frontline workers and organizations in learning and improving together. Brent is also a best-selling author, having written key safety books such as "The Practice of Learning Teams," "Learning from Everyday Work," and "4Ds for HOP and Learning Teams."Josh Bryant, currently the General Manager of People, Risk, and Sustainability at Mitchell Services, brings extensive experience from working with some of the world’s largest global mining companies. At Mitchell Services, Josh and his team are recognized for their successful integration of contemporary safety principles into their operations, significantly enhancing the management of critical risks and improving the organization's ability to learn and enhance safety practices. Josh is also a co-author of "4D’s for HOP and Learning Teams" and co-hosts the Brisbane Safety Differently book club.In their presentation, Brent and Josh discuss "Putting Critical Risk Management and HOP into Practice," exploring how to build and drive critical risk management that focuses on what truly matters. They delve into the use of the 4Ds framework, HOP principles, frontline insights, and operational learning to create effective and sustainable safety practices.Join us as Brent and Josh share their expertise on how organizations can leverage critical risk management and HOP to achieve operational excellence and improve safety outcomes. This episode provides valuable insights and practical guidance for safety professionals looking to enhance their organization's safety culture and performance.Tune in to Safety FM with Jay Allen for this informative and engaging discussion that highlights the power of collaboration, innovation, and practical application in the field of safety.
Today on Safety FM Mini - Lets take a moment for nostalgia. Hear about it now of Safety FM Mini.
Welcome to a special episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen, featuring Dr. Matthew Hallowell, recorded at the Energy Safety Canada Conference 2024 in Banff. Dr. Hallowell, the founder and executive director of the Construction Safety Research Alliance and Executive Director of Safety Function, is a leading expert in the field of safety, with over 100 peer-reviewed publications on advanced safety metrics including leading indicators, energy-based safety, and precursor analysis.In this episode, Dr. Hallowell provides a detailed overview of his keynote presentation, "Power of Collaboration in SIF Prevention: From TRIR to HECA." While listeners did not hear the original speech, Dr. Hallowell offers an in-depth post-speech interview where he examines the philosophical and statistical flaws of using traditional injury rates as the primary measure of safety. He introduces High-Energy Control Assessments (HECA) as a superior alternative.HECA, grounded in the principles of human and organizational performance (HOP) and the science of energy-based safety, has been effectively operationalized and adopted on a large scale within a major economic sector. This model exemplifies the transformative power of collaboration, combining scientific precision with practical application.Join us in this episode as Dr. Hallowell discusses the innovative approaches to safety management that are redefining industry standards. This engaging conversation, set against the backdrop of the beautiful Banff scenery, provides valuable insights into the future of safety and the critical role of collaboration in advancing workplace safety practices.
In today's episode of Safety FM Mini, Jay delves into the thought-provoking notion of questioning everything. Hear all about it today, on Safety FM Mini.
Welcome to a special edition of Safety FM with Jay Allen, featuring Josh Bryant, General Manager - People, Risk, and Sustainability at Mitchell Services. This episode includes Josh's compelling presentation from the Global Safety Innovation Summit in Australia and a thoughtful interview conducted at the Energy Safety Canada Conference in Banff.Josh brings an extensive background in the global mining industry to his role, where he and his team have been recognized for their successful integration of contemporary safety principles into operational and leadership practices. His strategic and operational expertise has not only improved the management of critical risks but also enhanced Mitchell Services' ability to learn from and improve the safety of work.As an accomplished public speaker, Josh reflects his commitment to sharing knowledge and experiences with the wider community. He co-authored the book “4D’s for HOP and Learning Teams” and co-hosts the Brisbane Safety Differently book club. In 2023, his leadership and innovative practices earned his team the prestigious Australian WHS Team of the Year award from the Australian Institute of Health and Safety.In this episode, listen to Josh share valuable insights into the integration of safety principles in the mining sector, and the tangible benefits they bring to organizational culture and operational efficiency. This insightful session from two prominent safety conferences offers listeners a unique perspective on leading safety practices and strategies from one of the industry's most effective leaders.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay describes what happens after going to a conference all week. Take a listen to this interesting perspective, when discusses Energy Safety Canada 2024.
Welcome to another engaging episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen, featuring a standout presentation by Maeve O’Loughlin, recorded at the Global Safety Innovation Summit in Australia. In this episode, we delve into the world of safety culture and human performance with Maeve, who currently leads the Global HSE Culture initiatives at Svitzer, part of the A.P. Moller Maersk group.Maeve is a chartered safety practitioner (CMIOSH) and a pioneer in applying adaptive and resilient human performance principles to enhance organizational safety. Her expertise focuses on creating effective management strategies that are not only innovative but are also deeply informed by her extensive background in consulting, academia, and management within high-risk industries, the built environment sector, and manufacturing.Throughout her career, Maeve has been recognized for her contributions to safety innovation, notably for leading the IOSH PIPER Initiative, which connects academic research capabilities with industry partners. She also plays a vital role in the IOSH Performance and Development Committee, influencing safety practices on a global scale.In her presentation, Maeve shares her insights on developing a safety culture that prioritizes adaptability and resilience, ensuring that safety management is both effective and responsive to the dynamic challenges of modern industries. Her approach offers valuable lessons on integrating safety deeply into the fabric of organizational behavior, promoting a culture where safety and efficiency are inextricably linked.This episode provides listeners with an opportunity to learn from one of the leading voices in safety culture today. Although Jay Allen was unable to conduct a follow-up interview with Maeve post-presentation, her session alone offers a wealth of knowledge and innovative ideas that can be applied across various sectors to manage safety more effectively.Tune into this insightful episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen to explore advanced safety culture techniques and gain a deeper understanding of how adaptive and resilient human performance principles can revolutionize safety management in any organization.
Welcome to another insightful episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen, featuring a compelling presentation by John Wilkes, recorded at the Global Safety Innovation Summit in Australia. As the Senior Director for Business Excellence at Novavax, John brings a wealth of experience and a sophisticated understanding of Human and Organizational Performance concepts to the forefront of the pharmaceutical and medical device industries.With an impressive career spanning over 29 years, John has developed a deep expertise in various facets of the industry, including manufacturing operations, operational excellence, quality systems, quality assurance, and quality control. His experiences at notable companies such as BioReliance, MesoScale Diagnostics, and AstraZeneca have not only shaped his professional journey but also his approach to integrating Human and Organizational Performance (HOP) principles into business practices.In his presentation, John discusses the critical role of HOP concepts in driving business excellence within highly regulated environments like pharmaceuticals and medical devices. He shares insights into how these principles can be effectively applied to enhance safety, quality, and efficiency, ultimately leading to better outcomes in product development and manufacturing processes.Listeners will gain a rare look into the strategies that a seasoned leader employs to foster a culture that prioritizes safety and operational excellence. John's approach underscores the importance of aligning organizational practices with HOP methodologies to navigate the complex challenges faced by the industry today.Tune into this episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen to explore how John Wilkes leverages his extensive background to innovate and improve safety and performance standards at Novavax, all through the lens of Human and Organizational Performance. This presentation from the Global Safety Innovation Summit in Australia is not to be missed by anyone interested in the intersection of safety science and pharmaceutical manufacturing.
Welcome to a thought-provoking episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen, featuring an insightful presentation by Ben Hutchinson, a dedicated safety professional and PhD candidate with a deep focus on complex sociotechnical systems, the incubation of major accidents, and the social construction of risk. This episode, sourced from a captivating session at a recent safety conference, provides listeners with an exclusive opportunity to delve into the advanced realms of safety science and risk perception.Ben Hutchinson brings a rigorous academic approach combined with practical insights into the nature of safety in complex environments. His work explores how major accidents incubate over time within organizations, shedding light on the often-overlooked processes and decisions that can lead to significant safety failures. By examining the social aspects of risk management, Ben aims to uncover how risk is perceived and constructed within different societal and organizational contexts.In his presentation, Ben discusses the intricate interplay between human factors and technological systems in creating both safety and risk. He challenges traditional views on risk management and safety protocols, advocating for a more nuanced understanding of the factors that contribute to safety outcomes. Through his research, Ben provides valuable strategies for organizations to better anticipate and mitigate potential disasters, emphasizing the importance of recognizing and addressing the subtle cues that precede major safety events.Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of the complexities of managing safety in environments where technology and human elements are closely intertwined. Ben's insights are particularly valuable for safety professionals, organizational leaders, and anyone interested in the dynamics of risk and safety in high-stakes settings.Tune into this episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen to explore the cutting-edge of safety practice and theory with Ben Hutchinson. Discover how advanced research and a thoughtful approach to the social aspects of risk can lead to more effective safety management strategies.
Welcome to a standout episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen, featuring a recording of an insightful presentation from the Global Safety Innovation Summit that took place in Australia in February. This episode brings together the profound insights and experiences of Kym Bancroft and Greg Smith, two leading figures in the world of safety and health management.Kym Bancroft, the Managing Director of New View Safety, partners with organizations to translate contemporary safety ideas into tangible operational practices. With a future-focused vision, Kym is an executive health and safety leader who leverages her Masters in Safety Leadership from Griffith University, Masters in Applied Psychology (Organisational) from Murdoch University, and a Graduate Diploma in OHS, also from Murdoch University, to spearhead change. As an endorsed Organisational Psychologist, her 25 years of experience span an impressive array of sectors and global locations—from open-cut mining in Canada and offshore gas in the US to diverse industries across the Asia Pacific. Kym's previous roles have profoundly influenced the safety landscape, including her tenure as the Queensland Regulator for Workplace Health & Safety, Electrical Safety, and Workers' Compensation, and her impactful collaborations, like the 'Doing Safety Differently' documentary with Professor Sidney Dekker.Greg Smith, an international award-winning author and qualified lawyer with over three decades of specialization in safety and health management, brings a complementary perspective to this dialogue. Greg's expertise is in assisting clients to understand and fulfill their safety and health responsibilities through the development of effective processes. His background includes roles as the Principal Safety Advisor for an oil and gas company and as General Manager of Health and Safety in a transport and mining services company. With various board positions and experience teaching the Accident Prevention unit at Curtin University in Western Australia, Greg's contributions to the field are both broad and deep.In this episode, Kym and Greg discuss their contemporary approaches to safety and health management, sharing insights on psychological principles, human-centered methodologies, safety innovation, and evidence-based research. This presentation not only showcases their individual expertise but also highlights the collaborative potential for driving transformational change in workplace safety, operational excellence, and positive culture.Tune into Safety FM with Jay Allen to experience this pivotal presentation from the Global Safety Innovation Summit, where Kym Bancroft and Greg Smith share their visionary approaches to doing safety differently, fostering high reliability, and nurturing a culture of operational excellence across industries.
In an enlightening episode of "Safety FM with Jay Allen," listeners are taken on a deep dive into the groundbreaking presentation delivered by Martha Acosta, Andrea Baker, and Zoe Nations at The Global Safety Innovation Conference in Australia. With Jay Allen not conducting the post-presentation interview, Todd Conklin steps in to fill the void, bringing his unique perspective to one of his memorable episodes of The Pre-Accident Investigation. This special crossover episode sheds light on the trio's innovative approaches to safety and is accessible for streaming at Safety FM.com.Zoe Nations has been at the forefront of advocating for user-centered problem-solving methods since her early days as a human factors graduate. With a 20-year career spanning across diverse sectors such as rail, oil & gas, healthcare, mining, manufacturing, and aviation, Zoe's role as the lead HF/HOP advisor for Chevron Australia epitomizes her dedication to enhancing safety management through practical, inclusive solutions and operational learning.Dr. Martha Acosta, often hailed as the “Godmother of HOP” on Todd Conklin’s podcast, is a revered figure in the realm of human and organizational learning. Her expertise, honed over more than a quarter of a century, in leading emotional and cognitive aspects of safety and leadership has made her an indispensable voice in safety circles worldwide. Martha's role in developing leaders and shaping safety culture extends through her senior positions at Harvard Business School's Corporate Learning and various esteemed boards.Andrea Baker’s narrative is one of transformation and dissemination of HOP principles across the globe. From her beginnings in a leading multinational industrial corporation to her current role as a consultant and educator, Andrea's journey reflects the practical challenges and successes of embedding HOP principles into organizational fabric. Her work, including co-authoring “Bob's Guide to Operational Learning” and co-hosting “A HOP Podcast (with no name),” showcases her commitment to advancing operational learning and safety across industries.This episode of "Safety FM with Jay Allen" is not just a reflection on the conference but a broader discussion on the evolution of safety practices, the intricacies of human and organizational performance principles, and the personal journeys of three remarkable women shaping the future of safety.
How do you handle frustration in your personal life and in your work life? Lets talk about that today!
Today we take a look back at the episode we did with Sheldon Primus on how to become a safety consultant. Take a listen to this episode from the vault.
Let's revisit our episode with Joshua Kreger on today's show. Enjoy the episode from the vault.
On today's episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen. We will play a recent main story from the Rated R Safety Show. Jay wants to share this message on all the platforms and asked for us to include it in this week's podcast. Take a listen and let us know what you think.
On today's episode of Safety FM with Jay Allen, it's all about unpacking aggression. Take a listen as Jay discusses the past, the present, and the future of aggression on Safety FM with Jay Allen.
Today on Safety FM with Jay Allen, Jay speaks with some of the board members for Alliance of Central Florida Safety. During their chat, they discuss the upcoming Safety Day 2023 taking place on September 26, 2023. This event occurs one day before the Conklin Conference that is taking place at the same venue (Rosen Plaza) on September 27 - 29.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss the priorities between work and mental health days. Let us know what you think!
This episode is the main story of off the Rared R Safety Show. A lot of people contacted us about it, and we figured we should have it show up on our Safety FM show. Take a listen and let us know what you think.
Do you have psychics working among you? If you do this, this might be the episode for you. If you don't, this is the episode for you as well. Let's discuss further on this episode of Safety FM Mini.
Today on the show, Jay ask the question, do you consider HOP mainstream? Hear about it today on Safety FM with Jay Allen
Today on the mini, we have the weird discussion about near miss reporting. How do you handle this?
Today on Safety FM with Jay Allen, we will be diving into the topic of mastering the art of self-discipline. Get ready to discover neuropsychological-informed strategies for habit formation and achieving your goals. Let's talk about it now!
Today on the mini episode, we discuss the whole married to the job thing. Where do you fall on this?
Today on Safety FM with Jay Allen, Todd Conklin takes over to discuss what is going on with the upcoming Conklin Conference. Sit back and enjoy this wild ride.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we have a special message from Todd Conklin. To find out more about the Conklin Conference go to SafetyFM.io
Today on Safety FM, we discuss repeating the information that you might not want to keep on repeating. Hear all about it today.
With all the events taking place this week, should you consider interviewing your CEO or potential CEO? Let's talk about it today.
Today on the pod, Jay will discuss what's going on when you are doing normal work, but will also talk about normal work from others perspective. Hear about it all today on Safety FM.
[00:00:00] : Safety F M dot com with J Allen, changing safety cultures, one broadcast and one podcast at a time. Welcome to another episode. Well, I guess we should probably talk about that right away, but this is another episode of what we would call Safety F M or we would call the Jay Allen show or whatever the heck you want to call it. You know, I have to tell you over the last little bit. We've been doing some things that has um well been taking a look around and really focusing on what is important and I kind of noticed to some extent, to some extent, some extent, some extent that we needed to kind of look at our roots that we needed to go back to some of the focal points on how we started this thing. Now, if, if you've been on this ride with me for some time, well, you know that we've been doing this for about five years, a little over five years at this point. And when we originally came out of the gates, we were known as the Safety of Safety F M podcast broadcast. However, you wanted to take a look at it at the time and we did some changes and we added some things onto the radio station and some things to the podcast network. And I'm not gonna say that we lost focus, but I'm gonna say that we kind of did, we did change some of the things that we were doing. So actually talking to some of the people that I, that I respect and I like to interact with. I've come to the conclusion that maybe we need to go back to our roots. We need to go back to where we all started and I want to make sure that as we focus on this, we talk about this on the show and we focus on this as we do everything. So we have reverted back to the original name of the podcast and the broadcast in this show will now go back to safety F M but it will be safe D F M with Jay Allen that way, there's not too much confusion, but I'm still sure that it'll cause some kind of confusion in regards of titling. Listen. However, you're actually getting this video, a podcast, you're still gonna get it the exact same way. Don't worry about that. But all that you're gonna see is that the artworks changed, the covers changed. Um But still the link stuff will be pretty similar. But as I decided to, to go through this and talk about it and really focus on it. I wanted to make sure that we still give you two episodes a week, they're still gonna be on the same day, which will be on Tuesdays and on Fridays. So you don't have to worry about that. But I want to make sure that we're focusing on still the things that are important, which is safety and we are focusing also on psychology. So those things will not change. But what I've noticed that throughout the, the, the last few years is that we focus very heavily on psychology and there's nothing wrong with that. I, I think that it's still a very important subject that we need to discuss as we go through. But I also noticed that we really went far away from what we were doing in regards of interviews and, you know, depending on how you want to take a look at it, there are thousands, thousands upon thousands of interview shows, but we went away from that for a period of time because there were so many other people on our network that were doing it and I started to think about it and went, we do interviews here and there from people in different walks of life. So what if we went back to an interview style show? But we're still focusing on what's important, that's what people are doing in the field, what things are going on within the industry, what things are happening in the world around us opposed to us just talking about psychology the whole time because we have been doing very heavily on that and I know that we've done some interesting and weird tie ins depending on how you want to take a look at it. And some people liked it. Some people didn't and I'm cool with that. I'm cool with, you know, it, um, talking about the things that people do like and the people and the things that people don't like and we heard you loud and clear, listen, we keep on adding things to the radio station. We keep on adding things to our podcast network because we want to make sure that we still end up being a destination location for the things that you're looking for. So I don't ever want that to, to be any different than it is today, but I also want to make sure that we still remained on focusing on the things that we deem that were important as we are talking throughout our network. So with that being said, like I said, at the very beginning, we will go back and revert to safety F M as the name of this show. And we will continue to um to regard it with some of the important things that are well, adding it to safety F M access and saying, hey, that it's with me and listen. I know that there are all kinds of things that are going on inside of our little world. Of safety and there's all kinds of things that we need to talk about. And let's go back to brass tacks and that focusing on the things that we deem that are important, the things that we deem that we should be focusing on in that particular regard, meaning what is going on within the industry, what is going on from the standpoint of everything that is happening when nothing is happening because that's always gonna be another standpoint that we need to talk about. So don't worry about that. We're gonna be here and talk about this. So let's do this. Let's talk real quick and let's go into that whole subject matter. Once again of what exactly are the principles that we mostly focus on, on our network and listen as the network does grow and we continue to do, do a whole bunch of different things. We always and constantly want to talk about what's important to all walks of life inside of this world of safety. But what I'm going to focus on today is the five principles of human and organizational performance. And as I talk about them today, we're gonna give the, the breakdown once again of how um and how we actually um will go through this subject matter. So don't worry about that. So we're gonna go principle one through five. We're not gonna give a, a breakdown of multiple episodes, but we're gonna talk about them as we are going through the whole process right now. And as you know, when you go online, there's all kinds of different ones that you can find out there. But what I'm going to do is I want to talk today about the five as related through seeing through the lens of safety differently as listed in the book from Todd Conklin that came out a few years ago. So if we're gonna give the breakdown, let's kind of go through them slowly but surely. So I'll name them off really quick. All five as we are going through this. So human error is normal, blame fixes nothing. Learning is vital context drives behavior and how you respond to failure matters. So we should we do it just one more time just so before we can all be on, on the same page. I mean, I just wanna say that. So here we go. Number one, human error is normal. Number two, blame fixes nothing. Number three, learning is vital. Number four, context drives behavior in number five, how you respond to failure matters. Now, I will tell you, I'm telling you them directly off the book and but there's always been that kind of weird debate when it comes to number five. If it's how you respond to failure matters or if it's how management responds to failure matters, so we can talk about that later. But here's the thing when you think about general principles. How do you break these down besides you know, the one through five that I just gave you. But I think we need, and that's the great thing about it is that I'm thinking about it doesn't necessarily mean that it's right or wrong. But I think that we need to really understand what each one means. And I think that there will be some verity depending on, you know, how you look at these things. And I think one of the most difficult things we run into is that we expect for things to work perfectly within our organization, within our lifetime. Not realizing that human error is the most normal thing that occurs at work, day in and day out. Think about it for a moment. The most amount of errors that occur from the inside of your workplace are based on the person that understands your system the best they also can probably um go ahead and correct those issues as they're moving forward better than most people. But that's the thing that we run into. We run into this problem from time to time to where we think that it has to run perfectly for it to be a success opposed to realizing that that's not exactly how these things work. So think about that as we are talking on this lovely Tuesday, the other portion that we run into is that in retrospect, we always want to be able to have blame, we always want to be able to blame people for things that are occurring. We want to be able to say, hey, this is what went wrong and Joe Blow from down the block is to blame for what occurred. But guess what? Just because you turned around and said Joe Blow from down the block is to blame with this does not mean that the problems are resolved does not mean that the issue has went away. Think about that for a moment. I mean, it's a hard pill to swallow. Let's, let's not lie here. But it's one of those weird things that we have to think about just because we have that emotional event that occurs that we're able to get that out of our system and say, hey, listen, this person is to blame, didn't correct anything, we didn't learn anything from it. It was just uh a point of interest at that particular moment in time. Now, here's the fun part is that going to change in the near future? No, there's a lot of practice that has to go into place to be able to do this. Let's not lie to each other and go how the world is perfect because it's not, the next thing we should probably talk about is learning is vital. And I think that that's where a lot of us fail at. We tend to forget to learn about the things that are going on within our system. And we all want to say that we have these great systems inside of our organization. But we tend to forget that we need to learn from the world that is around us and asking questions might be the best thing to do inside of the organization. For some reason, there is still this weird belief that supervisors and managers believe that they should know everything about everything that is going on within the organization. And as much as I would love to say that that's not the case. I think that what we need to do more frequently is ask the people that are actually doing the work because the people that are actually doing the work, understand it better than anyone else that of what's going on inside of that system, then you will or than I ever will. I know that that's a tough one. I mean, you kind of feel that one that's, that's kind of like the punch in the gut, but think about it, think about it for just a moment. If you learn from the people that are doing the work, how much further could you go? And there's ways to do that and we can get into some of that information. The other thing, context drives behavior. What comes to mind when you hear that? Like when you hear that term, what do you think about automatically? Like what exactly does that go to? So if I gave you the definition context drives behavior here. Context is the circumstance that forms the setting for an event such as fatigue production demands or broken equipment for every workplace injury, various circumstances lead to the behavior that resulted in the injury. That's what some people believe is that how you look at it? Are you ok with that? I mean, there's so many different aspects on how people look at this stuff. What do you think when you hear that the other portion that you can look at is go behavior is the context and environment is the fundamental concept in psychology that emphasizes the importance of understanding the multiple factors that influence the behavior in different environments. You see where you can actually go down several different rabbit holes just by starting to talk about this. Do you see where things can change on how the way that you'll look at something might be slightly different? And of course, number five, how you respond to failure matters. Now, listen, it's an all pretty scenario when we start talking about how we want to focus on some of these things and change the world around us. But it doesn't necessarily mean that that's always how it's going to be. Sometimes we have a very hard time responding to failure. Listen, between you and I, I'd rather have an injury than a death at a workplace. I know not really something that people wanna say, but think about it, think about what I'm saying. So as we move forward and talk about this, how we even respond to a single incident is going to matter within the organization. There's multiple different ways to look at it. I have never been a big fan of those boards that say we've had no injuries in the last 105 days incident free because I just don't think it's realistic. I believe that there are incidents that occur on a daily basis within your organization and it really just depends on how you are deciding to track it. I know we've discussed this before on this show where we've talked about organizations that I've interacted with that for them not to put it on the board. What they would do is that they would tell people that they would have to take time off during that time. If they had an injury, if they had something that had went wrong, that way, it would not count against what the hell was going on within the organization. I mean, it's an interesting one when you really start thinking about it opposed to it being one of those things where we start talking about, hey, maybe we should look at all these things differently and, and, and, and go into the deep dives of what occurred and how we're going to react to some of these things. If you're expecting everything to be perfect all the time, I got bad news for you. Things are not going to work, just not the way that it goes. But if we start taking a look at it and go, hm. I know that things are going to fail and how I respond to it is really gonna play the biggest factor into the environment inside of the organization. Maybe you got something else to look at there, just stuff to think about. So there you go. That's essentially going back to the five principles. And I think it's always important to discuss. So if we're gonna give the breakdown once again, let's go through all five. Again, human error is normal, blame fixes nothing. Learning is vital context, drives behavior and how you respond to failure matters. Listen, we all need to have some kind of foundation in regards to how we're moving forward. And I, I understand that there are people that are going around and talking about how, you know, it's all about the label and the labeling and all that fun stuff. And you know, people get misconstrued and misunderstand, what the hell is going on because the labels, I think that's a discussion for another day. Let's just be realistic. But as we talk about this today, let's focus on what the foundation is going to be going forward. Not that we really ever lost the foundation. But I wanna make sure that we understand that when we talk to people and we have this discussion, we understand that we have a foundation to everything. I don't want to promise you anything in regards of what we're going to do, going forward. But we will go into some of the aspects of the things that we did that you enjoyed when it comes down to the whole interviewing side and really talking into more of the safety side, we'll still talk about psychology from here and there. Don't worry about that. And yes, if you want to, you know, get into some of the other things that are going on on the station, you're more than welcome to succumb to Safety F M dot com and you can take a listen to all the other shows that are on there. About 18 different different shows that are there with multiple different hosts. And of course, we still host every morning, the rated R Safety Show Monday through Friday. So you don't have to worry about that. That's not going anywhere. So that's it. That's what I got. So the show has been been uh I guess renamed, we'll say renamed to Safe D F M with Jay Allen. So that's what's going on now. We will use the, the five principles of hop as the foundation to this whole thing. And then we will continue to move forward and talk about everything that's going on within our industry. So with that being said, that's gonna sell off our time together today. So don't worry about that. We will be back with Safe D F M many coming, this coming Friday and talk about some more things that are going on and until then, well, take care of yourself, be kind to each other because I've been told that that's super important. Seriously. Think about the way that we look at the world and using these five principles signs that it could change. The organization can really change all different aspects of your life. I've been your safety manager and host Jay Allen. And until next time, be safe safety F M changing safety cultures, one broadcast and one podcast at a time. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated. Open source information. Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means, mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, J Allen.
Big week for some of you, so now what do you do after the waves of emotions after the event? Let's talk about this today.
Let's talk about something out of the norm today on the show - Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), How To Use Its Principles On Yourself In Daily Life
Maybe today is a good day to discuss capacity and being gone. Let's do it today on Safety FM Mini.
Procrastination is a problem that affects everyone. It means delaying or avoiding difficult, unpleasant, or overwhelming tasks. Let's talk about it to day on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we talk about the lessons that we learned via whiplast. Hear it all today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, it's all about happy research! Yes, you read correctly, we will discuss what we have discovered during our research. Hear is all today, on The Jay Allen Show.
Today we have the discussion about that overnight sensation that took about 30 years. Hear about it now on Safety FM Mini!
Let's talk about "The Psychology of Goal Setting: How to Set and Achieve Meaningful Objectives". You might be amazed on how important it is. Let's discuss today on The Jay Allen Show!
Do you work somewhere where they have public firings? If so, how do you handle them? Let's discuss now.
Today on the show, learn everything there is to know about self-esteem and how it can really shape your mental health!
Sometimes we have to admit that technology does fail us, but sometimes we must admit that people have their excuses that are priceless. Take a listen about it on today's episode of Safety FM Mini.
Don’t let your fear hold you back! Listen to this podcast to learn all about the fear of failure and how to overcome it, so you can face your challenges head on.
Let's talk about that magical thing about meeting new people. We will go over this today on Safety FM Mini.
It's all about the art of body language today! Unleash the power of your nonverbal cues with our guide to body language!
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss what happens when things don't go to plan. Hear about it all today.
Today we take a turn and just take a listen to some music together. Sometimes we need to take a twist and do some other things. Sit back and enjoy!
Today on the mini episode, we discuss that important question about control. Take a listen and let us know what you think.
With this podcast, you can discover the fascinating world of memory and learn how to improve and maintain your memory function!
What's your back-up plan? Do you have one? Is there a back-up to the back-up? Let's talk about it today.
On this podcast discover the fascinating world of adventure psychology and the benefits of incorporating more adventure into your life.
Do you find yourself needing help to make a choice? Listen to our podcast ondecision anxiety to find some peace of mind and learn how to make confident choices.
Do you find your brain freezes when faced with a decision? This podcast might be just what you need to beat analysis paralysis.
Welcome to the Jay Allen Show, where we explore the fascinating stories of people who have successfully navigated their career journeys. In today's episode, we'll delve into the unique paths that individuals have taken to get to where they are today, and the challenges they faced along the way.We believe that everyone has a story worth telling, and we want to encourage our listeners to share their experiences and insights. Whether you're just starting out in your career, considering a career change, or have already achieved success, there is always more to learn from the experiences of others.Through engaging and humorous discussions, we'll explore the factors that influence career decisions, the challenges we face, and the lessons we learn. Our goal is to provide you with valuable insights and inspiration that can help you navigate your own career path with confidence.So, if you're looking for a podcast that offers a unique blend of humor, insight, and inspiration, then tune in to the Jay Allen Show. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, and join us for our next episode where we'll share more fascinating stories and valuable career advice. Thanks for listening!
Our AI isn't as good as we want it to be, but here is the transcription:
[00:00:00] spk_0: Begins in Orlando florida and travel steadily to the west beaming across north America and planet Earth into your head, The world of safety never stops and now the safety FM podcast and broadcast with DR J Allen, This show is brought to you by safety. Mhm Well hello and welcome to another episode of the J Allen show. I hope all is good and grand inside of your neck of the woods. I have to tell you sometimes. It's amazing on how the world works out with things going on. A few weeks ago I had the privilege and honor to be at the florida trucking association safety symposium that took place in Orlando florida and while I was hanging out, I got to see the speaker by the name of Brandon Wiseman and boy was I impressed with what he had to say. And as I was sitting there, taking a look around, I said, you know what we need to do, we need to have Brandon on the show and let him talk a little bit about what's going on in the transportation industry. Now, here's the fun part if you've kind of sat around here for a while, somebody brought this up to me and I wasn't even thinking about this. I haven't really formally sat down with anyone in a very long period of time. They said over a year and I can't even do the math of actually sitting down with them and doing a proper interview and let me kind of just make sure that I'm clear here meaning an interview from my point, not that they were interviewing me and I was like wow I didn't realize that it had been that long but I guess that's what it is. So let me tell you a little bit about Brandon. Brandon Wiseman is the owner and president of truck safe, consulting a partner of Children's laws. As a transportation attorney, Brandon has assisted some of the nation's leading motor carriers in developing and maintaining compliant and cutting edge safety programs. He has also represented carriers of all types and sizes before the F. M. C. S. A. On matters such as safety rating upgrades and civil penalty proceedings through his consulting company. Brandon now offers carriers state of the art, compliance resources and regulatory training materials covering a wide range of safety related topics. Brandon is a regular speaker at industry events and contributor to industry publications. Now I will tell you as I got the opportunity to sit here and do this. It was just kind of amazing taking a listen to the way that he views things and how he got involved into this whole aspect of transportation safety. Now as I always like to share with you the things that actually do go on. This is actually interview number two between me and Brandon because, well for some reason the recording of the first time got messed up and miraculously my server in the cloud was able to recover it but we had already recorded another session by the time that that did take place. So this is an interview number two, I'll start off by talking about that a little bit as we go, but sit back, take a listen to what Brandon Wiseman has to say because I think you're gonna enjoy it here on the J allen show on safety FM is streaming now on safety FM dot live, Okay, so Brandon, um I'm one of those people that loves to be honest with everybody who's taking a listen to what the hell is going on and what we're doing and um if I'm, if I have to pull the curtain back a little bit, this is round two, we've done this before, except that there is no proof that we will ever be able to use at least there's just one little small clip, so I appreciate you coming back for another round that only I got to hear. So as you and I have already previously discussed, but the people that have not heard this will get to hear today is that um well I got to see you um do your thing in the florida transportation, what was it florida Trans, what is trucking? I'm gonna, I'm gonna mess that up florida trucking association, I almost messed it up and said transportation florida trucking association, I want to say about it week ago, give or take. Yeah, there was a safety summit aspect of it, you came out and we're doing a presentation about truck safety and I have to tell you it's one of those things that I tend to love. So I looked into what you were doing in the world of trucking and then I saw found your company of truck safe consulting and I said hey we have to have you on. So can you tell us about what you do? Yeah sure. So um I'm a transportation lawyer um don't hold that against me. Uh So I've been practicing law in this niche area of D. O. T. Safety regulations, believe it or not for about 15 years now was previously at a large law firm in Indianapolis, uh largest transportation specific firm in the country. And my job there was to work with primarily the largest motor carriers in the country on their D. O. T. Safety programs there, helping them to understand their regulatory obligations, helping them when they got you know, sideways with the F. M. C. S. A helping them develop policies, driver policies, handbooks, that type of stuff, appealing civil penalties when they inevitably got themselves in trouble. And so did that for many years. Got a lot of good experience doing that. Um And then in 2021 broke off on my own uh started truck safe, consulting. My goal for truck safe was to build out online compliance courses for safety managers, owners of small trucking companies. Those types of folks. I just never felt like there was a great resource for training for those types of folks on how to understand the regulations, you know, there's certainly lots of training resources out there for drivers, but I never found anything that I was all that excited about when it came to regulatory training for trucking companies and their safety managers. So I spent the first six months or so of 20, building out those courses and now we offer those through truck safe. But then got drug back into the legal world um by my colleague Jared Childress, he started his own small law firm called Children's Law. So now we got both companies, we run both companies, we do the legal, the D. O. T. Compliance legal work on the law firm side of things and then we do a lot of D. O. T. Compliance content and courses and youtube videos and that type of stuff on the truck safe side. So let's talk about that because I want to have a good understanding at what point in your life do you wake up and go, I think I want to get into transportation because I'll tell you when I was a kid, transportation wasn't a thing for me? I knew I wanted to be on the radio, but that was many, many, many moons ago and I did everything except that before I actually got into it, what were you thinking about doing as you were growing up? Uh not this. Um no, so I kind of grew up in the industry. My dad was um still is a partner at that law firm that I was at previously and his area was D. O. T. Safety and compliance before he went to law school. He worked at a trucking company as a safety director. And so it kind of grew up in that world um always had it kind of in the back of my mind that maybe I would do something like that but never really banked on it. I mean I what I enjoyed doing before I went to law school, I owned a video production company and um that's serving me well now because we do a lot of video content and stuff like that. But that was initially my plan was to do something like that, graphic design, video production. But then um I quickly learned that that that could be a rough career. Um Not a lot of money in it unless you you're great at it, which I'm okay at it. But in any, in any event uh this my sense has got the best of me and I decided I was going to go to law school. Um and so went to law school. Still at that point wasn't quite sure where I was going to land in the legal profession. Um but there was an opportunity for me at that firm where my dad worked, there was a clerkship available to me during law school and so I went and did that and uh, enjoyed the work that I did there. Um, never wanted to be a litigator, never wanted to be in the courtroom. Uh, and so the opportunity that I found at that firm was right for me, it was more on the regulatory compliance side of things. Um, and so I took that. So, I mean, this is where it gets kind of interesting because you say that you're going into video production, then you change it where you're going to become a lawyer because you're inspired by the things that your dad's doing, but you don't want to litigate. And I mean, that's, that's kind of a hard one. I mean, do you say this while you're in law school, you're telling people, hey, I'm gonna be a lawyer, but I'm not gonna be a litigation lawyer. Do people started do people start asking right away are you gonna be an ambulance chaser? Because I mean, that's what comes, I mean, let's just be realistic. That's what comes to mind. A lot of people have that perception and it's probably deserved about the profession. But I knew early on just from watching my dad that that wasn't the only path. And I knew that that was the path. I didn't want to be on. And so, you know, a lot of my friends in law school wanted to be litigators, not necessarily ambulance chasers, but they wanted to be in the courtroom. You gotta have a certain personality for that And it was just never my personality and more introverted? And uh, and so I I just knew that I preferred. Um, and even in high school and stuff like that in college, certainly I I enjoyed writing, I enjoyed reading and I felt like I was a pretty good writer and you really got to be a good writer to be on that side of the law where you are writing memos and your, your counseling clients on, you know, understanding the regulations stuff like that. So I knew early on that's what I wanted to do. And that's the position I maintained throughout law school, I took classes that I knew would push me towards that avenue. And so that's how I ended up there. So you know that I'm gonna have a hard time believing that you're an introvert. I mean, I've seen you on a stage in front of a couple 100 people. You're doing your po, you're doing your podcast, you're doing your live, your live broadcast. We'll call it, I call it a video. Video cast is really what it boils down to. But that's not very introverted stuff. That's extroverted stuff. So at what point does this machine turn on in your brain that you're able to power forward because a lot of people say that if they're introverted, I can't stand in front of a group of people? I can't do the things that you're doing. So how is this, how is this able to change for you? I would be lying if I said it was, I'm comfortable now that I'm doing. I mean I'm more comfortable than I was, but I still don't consider myself comfortable when I'm in that situation. So, you know, I think what what has gotten me to the point where I'm at now, like you said, I do a lot of speech, I do a lot of public speaking that was never in the cards for me, I didn't think. Um but what I found is that experience really is the thing that drives you to be able to push through that fear because You know, I feel like over having done worked in the D. O. T. regulations now and and advising clients on that topic specifically for about 15 years, I finally feel like I'm at a point where I've got enough experience in that area, I know enough about that topic to feel somewhat comfort comfortable when I go out and talk about it publicly, whether it be in front of in front of others or through our podcast or whatever. I feel like I have enough experience to know that I that I understand what I'm talking about and to feel like I have something to add to that conversation. So when you get the first invite where somebody contacts you and says you have a lot of knowledge based on this and we want you to do a public speaking of it and I know this is kind of pulling the curtain behind. I mean for people to see what's exactly going on, what's going through your mind at the time. I was I was not happy to do it. I was scared to death to do it. Um, I'll be honest, I mean that was early on in my legal career at the other firm when I got those opportunities just because There's not a lot of attorneys that focus in this area, uh, in the country. And so, but there's a lot of folks that are interested in the topic, there's 700,000 plus regulated motor carriers in the United States. And they all have to understand this world. And uh, and so there's probably a handful of us in the country that speak on this topic. And so I knew it was coming. I saw my dad do a lot of speeches on, on those topics and it came early in my career and I was, I was petrified to do it. Um, but you know, I, I had experience doing it in law school. You, that's part of the deal with law school, you take classes on, on that type of thing. And uh, and so I just pushed through it, made myself do it and um, got through it and then yeah, just practice makes perfect. So as you know, people automatically assume when you're interacting with a lawyer, you're gonna get the person in a suit, you're gonna get them in this high rise building and so on. And I don't mean this to be disrespectful. So please understand that if I was to approach you and you told me that you were a lawyer, I would have a lot of doubts. I mean, let's just be realistic until you started talking, then it becomes a different story because that's not what I'm expecting. I've succeeded in my efforts here to, uh, completely dispel that notion of burned all my suits. Uh, yeah, I, I, um, you know, so when I started truck safe, I was, I was hell bent on getting out of the legal profession altogether. I didn't want to do that anymore. I, all I wanted to do was, uh, educate folks on regulatory topics and I could do that through a consulting company. I don't have to be a lawyer to do that. Um, and so, and I knew that what we were lacking in the industry was good quality content. You know, I'm a consumer of that type of content. And I've, I've always enjoyed, you know, the behind the scenes part of that, and what I've observed over the last year is that the way we deliver content. And, and even, uh, you know, in the education realm has drastically changed over the last few years and people expect a certain quality of content when they're watching these videos nowadays. And I it just didn't exist um, in this industry, from what I could tell, and from my perspective, and what I didn't want to do is get in front of a camera in a suit and and be stuffy when it comes to delivering the content, that's just not what you see, that's not what's enticing to you, that's that's not the type of content you're here for. And so I wanted to do it differently and so I knew to do it differently. I had to, um, I had to look a certain way and I had to, I had more importantly, I had to deliver the content in a different way than people are used to when they're hearing lawyers talk. And so I spent a lot of time developing that skill and I think I I I think I do okay doing it. And so I would say you do more than okay, I at least in my opinion, and I get to interact with a whole bunch of, well say, safety professionals, um, that I get to see, do all kinds of different things, but your approach is so unique that I will tell you, I was sitting in that in that crowd of a couple of 100 I almost felt that you were talking to anyone from a novice to a senior level in regard to the things that you were expressing, and that's not, that's not something that somebody learns that's just not something that you can learn overnight. How did you develop that skill and re able to really interact with people where they think that you're doing the one on one approach with them, even though they're in a crowd, it comes from years of talking directly to trucking companies and to the safety folks of those trucking companies, it does them little good and I'm not serving as a good lawyer if I'm talking over their heads and in ways that doesn't make sense to them. It has to be practical, it has to, my advice to them has to be able to be put into motion. It has to be practical to their fleet. And so, uh, if, if you can't talk to folks in a way where the topics you're talking about makes sense to them, then they're just not going to come back to you for advice because it was, it was useless, they paid a lot of money for it and it ultimately didn't serve them well. So I learned early on from, from um, a lot of my mentors at the firm over the years of how to um, really break these, what can be complex topics down into their basic components and, and two more importantly, communicate them in ways that, that the motor carriers that I'm talking with can make practical use of them. And so it's just honing that skill over the years and uh, and now when I go out and speak publicly, I I just follow that same formula. It does nobody any good for me to talk about, you know, these lofty legal issues that all you, all you want is information that that um, is practical to your fleet. So that's kind of been my approach. So at the time that you're deciding to start doing this and now, you know, that you've honed this skill to be able to communicate with people, you're able to do these things that other people can't do in form of communication. And it makes it pretty interesting on how you do it. How are people looking at you when you start getting into the pandemic and you say, I think now it's time number one to branch out on my own and start my own company. And number two, you're saying to some extent you're not saying it 100% but you're saying I'm leaving the legal career behind and I'm focusing mostly on just the trucking industry as consulting nothing to do with law. To some extent we can argue that part, of course, what are your clothes, niche friends telling you at this time? Um, I have a very small group of close friends and they all knew that this is ultimately what I wanted to do. And so they were all very supportive and my wife included the biggest supporter for me. Uh, and so that was good. Um it took a long time to get to that place. I mean, I had been thinking about this for years, um, but I'm glad that I waited until that time to do it because had I not gained the experience of working at the larger law firm and working with some of the nation's largest carriers, I don't feel like I would have been in a position to be able to, to to speak on these issues. You know, one of the things that you look for when you're, when you're looking for counsel on these topics is experience. And, and, and so if I didn't have that and I just wouldn't have felt qualified to do it. So I felt like after 12 years at the firm, um, that that I had gotten to a place where I felt like I was in a position to be able to do that number one. And so that was a big motivating factor. And then the other thing was covid, like you mentioned, you know, I was working from home at that point and had gotten used to it and had this nice office here in my house and had a place to kind of launch from. And so it just felt like the right time for all of those reasons when you turn around and you tell your wife, I think it's time. And if you don't mind me mentioning it in the previous interview that nobody will ever get to hear because I messed it up. Um, you had said that you had moved during that time frame, you had just moved into a house. So you're doing both of these things at once and they say some of the biggest transitions in in life is starting a new job, having a kid moving into a new house, you're doing two out of the three, It sounds like how is the house, the interaction during that time, and I had a two year old at the time, so oh Lord, it was scary. I'm not gonna lie, it was I I toiled over it for for literally months and and worried about it and um and finally, it just wasn't healthy anymore for me to worry that much about it and and my wife to to give her the credit. She was, she was ready for me to do it before I was I was worried about the finances of it and that type of stuff, but at some point it just becomes unhealthy to um to find yourself in that position of worrying that much about it. So I just, I I I decided that I gotta I gotta pull the court at some point and just do it and uh and have some faith and and uh and what will happen and knock on wood, luckily everything turned out. Well, I'm I don't I'm not under any um under any belief that that's necessarily the case for everybody that that takes that leap of faith. Um I'm not under that delusion, but, and I know it doesn't always work out, but I had faith that it would work out my situation and it did. So you're six months in, you're doing your thing. You get the phone call from Jared Jared says, hey, um, I'm thinking about doing my own stuff. I want you to be involved. What are you thinking now? You already got company number one that you're running And now all of a sudden there's an offer of, here's my second startup. We're talking what less than a year? How does, how does this work for? You Jared actually left before I did. So he started, so I was aware of Jared and what he was doing before I started truck safe. And so we were in communication even when I was spending those six months developing the courses for trucks safe and all along that time, he was, he was convincing me um to eventually come over and work with him as well on the legal side of things. And you know, he broke me down. Um and he had good points too. It's like, you know, as I said earlier, it's important when you're in this position of, of speaking from authority, you gotta, if you can't show that you have some unique uh, unique thing to add to the conversation then why does anybody listen to you? And so I I can only rest on my laurels for some for some time. Um And so he made a good point that keep your law license. Um If nothing else it will at least get you in some doors that you may not have gotten in. Otherwise if if you were just doing this as a as a safety consultant that's not to put down safety consultant. I know a lot of great safety consultants in the country um But adding the legal the law license to it and that aspect of it really adds something to the equation that I think very few of us in the country have to add. So you referenced that. What doors do you feel that it's open for you right now by having your your we'll call it your law license in regards of getting certain things because let's be realistic there are courses that are out there that train people to be safety consultants and it's a three day certification course and all of a sudden you're a consultant to our to some people. So how does this how does how does the law license work for you in regards to opening doors that most people would not get open? The big the big one is so safety consultants in this space. A lot of them do mock D. O. T. Audits for example they'll go in and and their clients will hire them to come in and look at their records and issue a report of their findings from from that audit and where they think the motor carrier has gone wrong and I'm fine with that generally speaking. But the benefit, the big benefit of having lawyers do that over just safety consultants is that you get the benefit of the attorney client privilege when you have a lawyer do those types of things rather than a non lawyer. And so what that means practically is when I when we come in and do our mock D. O. T. Audits through our law firm and we tell you of everything that you're doing wrong and we put that in a written report for you to to chew on and to fix those issues. Hopefully that report is not gonna be generally discoverable in litigation. God forbid you get involved in a bad accident after that. Uh you know if that were just a safety consultants report, you better understand that that report is going to be shown to the jury and that subsequent litigation and it's gonna be argued that hey you knew all of these problems areas that you had, why didn't you do anything to fix them? The big, the big benefit of having lawyers do that is that report is protected and it's not gonna be discoverable in litigation to be used against you. So that's one that's probably the primary area where we separate ourselves from traditional safety consultants. Oh I love it. I have to tell you. I love but I think it works great exactly how you have it. So when somebody contacts you and says, hey, I'm interested in getting your services. How much paperwork are we talking then? Because I would imagine with some of the protections that are in place, what are we talking in regards of how much paperwork do they have to sit through? Not a ton. I mean, you know, we have in terms of engaging law firm, we just have a simple engagement letter that kind of lays out the issues. You know, certainly we have professional rules that govern the legal profession that make sure that we don't, you know, for example, engage in any, you know, conflict, we can't represent you if we have a conflict of interest that would prevent us from discharging our duties to you as a client. So there are, there are certainly lots of rules that go into Our ability to represent you or not. But in terms of the paperwork, not a whole lot to it. Good. That's, that's the best thing I like when I hear that, I don't have a lot of paperwork to work on. So let's talk about this a little bit because if people tend to look you up online, they're gonna find out automatically that you're in Indiana. Do you cover all 50 states? We do. In fact, we have very few clients in indiana. Most of our clients are throughout the United States and you know, we, we have the benefit in, in our niche of the industry, of the legal profession of working primarily with motor carriers who are operating in interstate commerce and are subject to federal law. So in other words, a lot of attorneys, um, in various areas of the law are confined to a particular state because there are nuances to that state's laws on whatever topic that they're dealing with, whether it be, you know, property issues or trusts in the States, it's all pretty local in nature. Whereas our niche of the legal profession is very rarely local in nature. It is interstate in nature. We're dealing with federal laws that apply usually the same across the country, no matter where your clients are based. And so that's, that's literally the only area of the law that we deal with are those federal rules. Uh, and occasionally there are some state distinctions, but more often than not, we're dealing with federal rules for interstate carriers. And so most of our clients are, are located throughout the United States, not just indiana. So when you have somebody come up to you and say, oh, well, I would love to use your services, but I've heard that you're mostly federal, but I'm only in trust state, What would you tell them? Yeah, so we advise those clients on occasion. It doesn't happen all that often. But um, you know, one of the main things that we do at the, at our firm is to make sure we have a pulse on where the state motor carrier safety regulations tend to deviate from the federal rules because if I have a motor carrier that comes to me that's usually subject to the federal rules but they have some unique move where they are going to be operating intra state in texas for example, I need to know that texas texas has more lenient rules on on the motor care safety regulation front than the federal rules. And so we keep track of what the states are doing uh in that regard and we can advise generally on that. But certainly when they get involved in some kind of uh traffic tickets, traffic tickets are the perfect example, if you've got a texas driver that gets cited for a violation of texas law, it's not gonna be me or or Jared that comes in and helps you with that. You're gonna need to get local council to help you with that that particular issue. But in terms of kind of generally advising on the distinctions between texas motor care safety regulations and the federal rules, that's something we do pretty regularly. So let me ask that question then because you did say that you would advise them to actually have local council if somebody wants to interact with you but they're saying can you do everything online in regards of auditing or actually going through the whole sequence with them. Is that something that's possible to do? Yeah, we do. So I mentioned mock bot audits. That's a pretty common thing we do and D. O. T. Does this too frankly where you know historically these have been pretty um pretty it's been necessary to do them on site because you go in you look at the carrier's records, you're pulling files from the filing cabinet and stuff like that. But more and more we're seeing these be done by the D. O. T. Off. They're called off site audits where they are essentially desk audits. Um They send you a list of documents that they want to see and you have to upload them and if you can't upload them electronically then you're gonna be written up for violations. So we're moving to that world. And so we at the firm have likewise moved to that as well where you know sometimes the carrier wants us to come in and and do an audit and we certainly do that. But um we also do those off site audits where uh they transmit documents to us and we take a look at them. So let's talk a little bit about some of the things that you've built because you referenced earlier that you've built out some structure in regards where people can take classes online. And we did also talk previously because I get to reference that about the community of practice that you've built. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah in terms of our our content and stuff that we do is that we're right that in the, you said that there was like a community that you could get into. So yeah, the truck safe compliance network. So one of the early ideas I had with truck safe was, um, what if not only I have this, all of this content that I've developed, but there are certain situations that are gonna be unique to a particular motor carrier that I haven't dealt with in one of the hundreds of Youtube videos or there are even our courses where do they go when they have questions? Um, maybe they come to me, maybe they can't afford to hire a lawyer, help them with that stuff. So is there a place for them to go to ask those questions And you know, maybe that, you know, local trucking Association is where you go to ask those questions. But I didn't, I wasn't aware of any um, you know, bigger community for the trucking industry where um, you know, safety managers and owners of small trucking companies could gather together and ask those types of questions and learn from one another. And so I, I decided I wanted to create that space on my own. And so we created the truck safe compliance network, which is uh, it's essentially a social network for safety folks, risk advisors, insurance folks, everybody that's involved either directly or tangentially in D. O. T. Safety and compliance for fleets. It's a place for them to get in there? It's a forum? They, we have an iphone app, android app where they can join it for free and they can get in there, they can post questions and get answers from other folks who have may have dealt with that same issue. And then it's also a place for us to deliver our content. So we do, for example, monthly webinars for our network members on all kinds of topics. Hours of service problems, driver qualification. Um, so it's really just a space to get more content out there that can hopefully make some difference and, and you know, making our highways a little bit more safe. So you know, automatically when you say the word membership, someone's gonna go out there and go, okay, you said membership, What's the cost associated and becoming a member, no cost whatsoever. It is free to join. Free to access all of the content. Uh, maybe someday I will figure out a way to monetize it. But no, it's a, it's free to join. I want, I want to get that content out there. I want to make that space available, um, to, to, um, to make our roads safer and you know, the benefit we get out of it is. Maybe we talk about something in one of those webinars that really sparks interest from a particular fleet and then they come to me with questions. Uh, and I'm fine with that, that type of model. So right now free to join. So you should do it well, isn't it interesting when you create something on your own and somebody tries to replicate it on, you know, and how much love there Really trying to show you, Have you seen anything along those lines in regard to this? I'm not gonna mention anything, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't mention any names with my first name being repeated several times, but we'll leave, we'll leave it outside of there. But now, so here, here's the thing as you go through this process, what things have you ran into that? You're amazed that people are not aware of that has changed within the law structure, let's say over the last couple of years, I would say the biggest issue that folks have trouble with that seems, that seems to be a big issue for them are hours of service problems. And particularly when you start to get into things like personal conveyance, which is what I consider probably the biggest gray area in the federal Medicare safety regulations that we're dealing with now, um, just because it's not well defined in the regulations. In fact, it's not defined at all. And so you're relying on kind of guidance that the FMCSA has put out over the years. And so, um, that's causing a lot of problems for a lot of fleets. They're having elevated hours of service, um, safety metrics and that's leading to them being audited and then those problems can manifest themselves in the audits and then they get slapped on the wrist, um, for those issues. So I would say our service is a big topic of discussion in the fleet compliance network. It's one that we spend a lot of time putting a lot of content out there on, um, you know, just by way of example, our Youtube channel. Um, this wasn't my intention, but it's, it's gotten a lot of traction with truck drivers themselves. My audience has always been safety managers and folks that are managing the compliance program of trucking companies. But our Youtube channel, I would say most of our 5000 subscribers that we have now are truck drivers who are interested in learning these types of topics because they impact them directly. You know, what, what is the split sleeper Berth provision of the federal rules. Um, you know, obviously they have an interest in understanding that stuff just as much as the trucking company. Uh, they're the ones that are charged with complying with those rules. And so it's been fun to watch that kind of take off with, with the truck driving community. It's always amazing to see on who your audience ends up being. Once you start putting the information out there. Yeah. Because then then you find yourself having to kind of tailor the content from actually is rather than the one that you wanted to be right. That's what we've come to to recognize here in regards of, hey, we had this original idea of what we thought it was gonna look like, but it didn't end up working out that way. Yeah. And I'm not a truck driver. I don't have a CDL or anything. So who am I to tell a truck driver how to safely drive a truck. So I don't ever, I don't ever pretend like I'm I'm any authority over how to safely drive a truck. Those are the driver. Those are the ones that are doing it day in and day out. What I think I have to offer to them is that kind of practical, no nonsense view of the regulations of the regulatory scheme in which they operate? Well, you do bring up a good point because there are a lot of safety managers that are out there and I'm not talking about consultants, I'm talking about safety managers within the industry themselves that sometimes do not have C. D. S. So when you go into a location, you know that every once in a while you have somebody who wants to be, we'll call it the wise guy just to kind of keep it clean to be the wise guy in regards to saying, well you don't have a CDL, so why should I listen to you? So how do you normally handle these things? That's probably 80% of the comments we have on our, on our youtube channel or things like um, you know, why, why why don't we make the F. M. C. S. A. Administrator be a CDL holder, why can't we make that be the case? And you know, I see that argument on the one side of things, but on the other side of things, you know, I also see, don't we really want somebody in that position who has um also has some experience either being a lawyer or somebody who's making the laws. Um, because you know, certainly they're going to be able to consult with folks that hold CD Ls when they come up with these rules. But don't we want somebody who's competent and actually making laws serving in that position because that's their job is to not drive, their job is to craft laws that work well for the industry understanding that they're gonna have to um, you know, consult with folks who are living in that world day in and day out. That's just, that's how we build our legal system in the United States. We don't expect everyone in a position of power to to be um, the type of person that they are, are charged with regulating. Sure, it seems like that may be something that we want in the system, but at the same time it's I think it's short sighted to look at it that way. So I definitely agree with that. So if people want to find out more information about you and what you have going on work and they find out exactly truck safe dot com is where you find most of our information we like like jay said we got a lot of got a lot of stakes in the fire. We do our podcast, we do our fleet compliance network, we've got an upcoming in person conference called our fleet compliance boot camp, it's going to be in Indianapolis um, here pretty soon. But all that information is on truck safe dot com and then also follow us on social media. We post a lot of content on our linkedin page on our facebook page on our twitter. So that's where you'll find us. Well Brandon, I really do appreciate you coming on to the show today and thank you for round two because I know that you know I screwed up round one, there is no doubt about that, I really do appreciate it. Well listen, I have to tell you, I hope you enjoyed this interview as much as I did. It's not very often that I sit back and go, wow, this dude has blown me away in regards of the information that he has provided and I am just amazed and impressed with the amount of information and detail that Brandon Wiseman, it was able to cover a lot of the information during this during this interview because that's really what boils down to. So if you want to you can go hang out, take a look at what he has going on a truck safe consulting. That's always great. And listen, I'll put some some links here inside of the description of the episode. If you want to take a look at what's going on, thank you for always being the best part of safety FM And that is the listener. Believe me, we'll be back with another episode of the J Allen show before too long. And let's see, let's see what ends up happening with Brandon. I'm kind of intrigued on where his career will take him. I'll see you next time I've been your safety manager and host, jay Allen. See you the J Allen show
We took this clip from The Rated R Safety Show, take a listen and let me know what you think.
In this episode, we explore the concept of stepping outside of our "Work Safety Comfort Zone." Our guest speaker, inspired by the writing of Philip K. Dick, presents a thought-provoking and humorous speech encouraging listeners to challenge themselves and embrace change in the workplace. From breaking free from constraints and regulations to discovering new talents and skills, this speech inspires listeners to take a leap of faith and embrace the unknown. So, tune in for a fun and insightful journey as we explore the benefits of breaking free from the comfort zone.
Today we take a deep dive into Learning Teams with Jeff, Brent and Brent. You might a little surprised on what they have to say!
Here is what our AI thinks was said:
[00:00:00] : this show is brought to you by safety FM Mhm Well hello and welcome to another episode of the J ALLen show, I hope everything is good and grand inside of your neck of the woods as we get to hang out on this lovely 24th of january of 2023 Yes, I'm still struggling with not saying 2022 don't worry about that, So how are things, how are things with you? How are things going? Is everything good as you're hanging out in this new year? I hope the answer to that question has been astounding Yesh, as we are taking a look around with everything that's going on now, a few weeks ago, I was actually hanging out in ST Petersburg florida at the safety to practical application conference and I was able to sit down and you know, take a listen to some of the things that was going on at the event, so with that being said, I have one today that I would love to share with you and this one is called Why Learning from accident does little to improve safety. Think about that, why Learning from accidents does little to improve safety Yes, that's the name of the episode. Now, listen, this is a presentation by Erik cole Nagle, he is the senior professor of patient safety. So as you sit back today, take a listen to this really, really close attention to what's going on with erIC as erIC is very well known throughout the industry and take a listen to his words of wisdom that he has in regards of what is going on within the world of safety and just kind of within the world in general, just take a listen and you'll notice Towards the end there are some questions that come in from audience members. I'm gonna go ahead and leave those in for this particular cut where you can take a listen to what erIC has to say. So there you go. Let's start off right now. Here's ERIC holder with his little presentation coming from the safety to practical application conference that took place in ST Petersburg florida before before starting. That's one thing I need to say that is if you ever unlucky enough to get an email from me, a department says the difference between what you can imagine what can happen is larger than you can imagine and that happened to me last year. I woke up one morning lying on the floor and had a stroke and never imagined that. So I'm still suffering from that since my speech is slightly incomprehensible, but at least I have a good excuse now, if you don't understand me at all. And when, as I said, prepare for this, I had the, the usual number of slides without cut them down dramatically. I realized today it doesn't really matter because in the old days you would show a slide and you talk about it, but now you show slides and everybody takes a picture and so it does matter if you don't understand me, it's worth it if you don't understand what you took a picture of. Don't come back and ask me about it please, because I'm not sure I have the answer. So this is what I'm going to talk about, why learning from accidents doesn't help to, to improve safety And uh get to the next one. So I think I'll start here because we talked a lot about safety and of course we all know that safety is the problem. But I think I wasn't here all day yesterday, but I think you're discussing all the water's safety actually. So the only thing you can say is that the lack of safety is very costly or just taking some, some statistics you can find, you know, the traffic accidents is performed for them. The most costly 508 a billion dollars. That's quite a lot of money. Even in europe, I won't even mention Dennis Chroma, which is uh, I can't even do the calculation in my head. So I think, I mean, I look down for definitions of safety and I find many different definitions and I'm not sure whether safety is a quality or quantity, he is here to safety is freedom from unacceptable risk. That's a quality and safety is the activity of ensuring that accidents are avoided, avoided. And you know, believe it or not, there's something called, which has another definition. This is if this concept that includes all measures and practices taken to preserve their life health at bodily executive individuals. So it's about protection and it's about things not not happening. So you need to ask what, what is safety actually because there are so many definitions around And as you know, we now we it's now common to talk about 22 interpretations which are called 61 and 62 and safety one is that the number of things that go along is as small as possible and that leads to the to the to the chocolate zero. That is no accidents. And I think the opposite that we cannot with safety is a condition whether or not the word I want Is as high as possible and I call that Kingdom Kingdom is a lesson for 100. So the target is 100% of everything. Everything you do should go well. And I think that's what we're interested because if something goes well, it can't it can't fail at the same time. you might as well turn around instead of privilege from field. That's why I have the coin here, you have a biased coins that comes up and hits all the time. That's cheating. That's what you want to do. Want to cheat. So you get hits all the time and you work of course. So I think this this brings me one way of phrasing. It is the question is not to be a lot to be, is to do a lot to do. Should we focus on what we should do or what on what we shouldn't do. I think Kathy is safety. We focus on what we shouldn't do and we said people don't do this, don't do that. Here's another procedure and tell you what we shouldn't do. But I think it's more important. It's much easier to tell people what they should do and they like it more, Nobody likes to be told they don't do that if you want to design a world environment is more important to tell them what to do and then tell them what not to do. So that's why I take the liberty of distorting Shakespeare little bit here. And so I think it should be to do or not to do. I won't do the whole story liquid. I should I should be happy about that Still 51 which was also called protective safety. It's about protection and and and and the the the metaphor is the glass but it's filled with the things that go wrong and you want to have it empty. There's a stereo vision. So you you look at what's in the class and try to understand it. You try to find find ways of removing, removing it. It's a classical way of doing safety. Of course you can have the opposite where you say you still use the analogy with the class but you want to have a full now of things that go well so that's not a calm, productive productive safety because if things go well you make money also and you produce it's a win win situation. If things go well, you don't have any accidents. You also produce and you create revenue and that that's that's that's what safety too is about. So try to think of this these jars and whether you want to empty your jar, you want to feel it and other we're looking at it is I'm grateful for a doctor in the Netherlands who is wonderful analogy. We try to improve safety by looking at situations where something went wrong and if something goes wrong, you say you're you're almost always say there was a lack of safety. So how can you start to safety in a situation when you say there was a lack of safety, you can't start anything if it isn't there. And I like her analogy. Can you understand what heavy marriages? By analyzing divorces alone? Of course you can't, you can say when you when you're married, you want to try to avoid a divorce, but that's not good enough. I think I speak other experience. I've had one divorce and that wasn't good enough. So, but I hope I never have to have another one. So so and and trump said was to come up with some practical advice for how to do it. So, so I thought I I'm an academic really. So I don't know how to do things and I know we're not not allowed to say philosophy here I am. Okay thank you. So so this is nothing to the philosophy this I'm sure you know this one stop think act and to me the I call this is a stop think act For the 51 version it's aimed at the shop and the people who work there who do the work and something happens to say stop think and then act I think what you need is We need another version which is for the planter into 62 version and that's what you should do when you have an incident uh an accident some reportable event you should say stop and say are you looking for courses efficiency just to find the cause and close the case or you're trying really trying to understand what what went on. That's what I called for owners and then think do you want to do you want to limit the constraint work as imagined? What do you want to facilitate and support work has done and act. I think you should engage with people at this event because they know what's going on and get them involved in implementing the changes that you that you together agree are the right things to do to make sure that work will go well and so that's my suggestion for how to how to do it practically think about these stop think act and interpretation hell a few more sites actually your honor sir. You want to see you go on now. Okay This is just repeating what I said about 61 safety too so safety oneness protective safety and you can see the promises that we need, we need to understand why accidents happen and we define safety by its absence. I think generations rolled out in the paper some years ago but nobody pays attention to that other thing about is swiss cheese and they never read any of his other stuff, which is quite good and that's okay. He also also safety is defined mobil's absence than by the presence and he's absolutely right. So safety is it's like this if something bad happens you want to get away from. And the problem with that is I'm a psychologist. You know that if you want to get away from something, which direction you take will work because it'll take you away from a bad thing. That's why that's why that's why you need to think when something happens it doesn't, it actually better is what you do is not just getting something and getting rid of it getting away from it. So when you look at the way we normally manage safety, I think you can say you manage safety by snapshots, snapshots are association where something goes wrong, go wrong and and they happen rarely and their snapshots of the system not working and how and what you want to do actually I should have a point and I use this this building pointer, it doesn't work here on the screen. But you see the you can see there's a sort of a little text about his presence of safety. So I think what you need to to understand what happens up there. That's what we want to do. That's what we built. That's what we want to support and and to do that. It's not enough to look at the absence of safety. You need to look at what what happens up there and understand what what on earth happened up there. If you want to do something about it, what happens when you look at accidents? We have, I've got glasses on. Many of us have got glasses and we have got different glasses on. I haven't got a label of mine, but you can see the people have glasses with labels on human air levels, safety, culture classes, maintenance, technical malfunction, latent conditions, root causes, whatever. And I think this was mentioned by thought also, I think we all notice that we have this from hundreds of course. He said that's why we look at accidents and learning from accidents. We need to knowledge of the course and to eliminate the course. But I think one thing we should keep in mind is that when shared that was in 1931 and what was world like in 191931 compared to the world conditions we have today. I don't think they compare at all. So using this philosophy from, from 1931 doesn't actually help us because every every method and every philosophy is to and every model is developed to meet the problems of its time. We should we should use methods and wonders admit the problems are all time another problems in 1931. even though we've gotten used to it and that's why they still teach. So I think it's worth keeping that in mind. So that's how we think this is I know you have root go back here and it does something similar. This is a danish cartoonist who did that and I like that because it it shows how you can think in terms of causes and effects. This is a lazy guy. This is in the old days before we had electricity and remote points for all of the light bulb. So he wanted to be able to switch off the light when he when he was going to see who invented this. And you can sort of reasons ruled from from, from where he put his finger to a new reason what's going to happen. And you can also reason backwards if if there I suddenly goes out, you can understand why what could go wrong on the way and that that's that's a nice easy way of thinking that the world is not like that anymore. Now he's got a remote control and and it can fail in many different ways And it may also work and work if you got, he had a wife who could, you know put out the light but not this guy's gotta talk instead. The dog is not smart enough to do that. I guess so. I think we have this, what I call linear thinking is so ingrained. We have absolutely everything around us in medicine. You talk about the virus is the germs make a diagnosis. We have the physics and chemistry, which first I think in the nail service and what happens, this happens something happened before that. And uh, you have in genetics, you have it in, in geology. We try to understand why you have earthquakes and volcanoes. And the interesting thing is you look at that is that every time you have a big earthquake that come up and say, we we we don't understand how this happens. We have to revise our theories. I think it's the same with volcanoes actually. They don't really know. You have in criminal investigations, you try to find out who did what and why. I mean that's why sheriff All this is a great in speaking. So, so when things go wrong, we we immediately say what was the reason for that was the cause. And and one of the popular ones is human failure. A technical failure. If you can't figure out what what the hell it is. You say it's an act of God on examination. I think depending on who you are, what you want to talk about. So I saw that some years ago there was a was a was a bridge, a motorway bridge that collapsed in Pakistan. And I I have a new spirit clip from it. And the guys who said that we, we never had something that that happened before. So it must be an act of God. I don't know the authority's board that I hope not. So the reasoning for 1st 51 is like this. When something happens, it's because we know that all components will have hardware or software will fail sooner or later. Humans make errors and they always will. There will always be unexpected and situations and combinations can hide sneak falls and other floors. And conversely when things go well, it's because systems are well designed and perfect, perfectly maintained and people people behave as expected or and as instructed as the Children to work is done is the same as workers imagined and procedures are complete and correct. I'm sure you agree with that. Designers can anticipate and prepare for every contingency. That's why we don't have accidents and that's that's the way to make sure we don't have accidents. So how do we explain failures? Well, well, well look, I'm sorry, Charge apologies for the screen here. You know, there was uh, it produced tv from years ago that that said had this picture and he said the title of that is where my earrings, not like it. So we look for failures and and we have sort of a standard repertoire of courses that will be applied and again, combination of the glasses, we have different glasses on and one important concept is what you look for is what you find because you have something in mind and you look for it and then you maybe you find it, it's not because it's actually what was there is because you looked for it. If you look for human error, you're bound to find it because they're always people in the system and they always do things that are different for they what you would like them to do because they are creative and adaptive and flexible and try to make things work. So what we do is we like what I call simple explanations and I call them monolithic explanations using the idea of monolith from Kubrick's 2001, you remember that? So we like monolithic explanations, you know, simple single explanations as one whole that you can't break down into anything. And we like Monolithic solutions also to go with the monolithic explanations because that's nice and easy as a 1-1 correspondence. So I just, just for fun, I tried to make up the timeline of these explanations. We have human factors started 19, complexity in 1984 with Charles Perrot's book and human error human error, I really say after team i in 1979 safety culture after Chernobyl and charity in 1986 that safety culture is surely monolithic explanation which says 60 40 that's it, situation awareness. In 1989 and more recently I saw somebody suggested organizational blindness. I'm not sure what that is, but that's as if you if you only overcome that, that's the main reason why things go wrong. But I also think we use them in in in is in stereotyped ways we use them either as a factual cause that that's what was there and that's why we're drawn or as a counterfactual forces say we think it was there and if it hadn't been there then it would have been fine. And we also use it as a hypothetical solution to say we should, we need more of that. We need more safety culture, we need more situation awareness or whatever it is then then then we need more resilience. I should say that because we've been working on resilience engineering for some years to uh and sometimes people say you you need more and that's what, that's what you feel when you start, people would interpret it in that way. So we just need more resilience, could you prove some resist citizens in the organization please. How can you, I mean I I saw some years ago they were trying to design cockpits that increased situation awareness, I'm not sure how that would work. And the problem is with all of these nice concepts, there's no theory behind them. They just sound extremely plausible and people buy them. But this is what I call it. And then eric from was um very famous US psychoanalyst think he said something is very, very appropriate. Is the question of certainty blocks a search for meaning. Another guy who wasn't a psychoanalyst, great philosopher said something much longer because he was, he didn't make it short so you can see here and I won't read it. And he says the first principle is any explanation is better than none. And I think that's quite true. The the cost creating drivers is just conditioned and excited by the feeling of fear. And conversely we can avoid that. If you look at safety too and say we're not interested in failures and white failures have, we're interested in in in things go well and therefore we should be interested why things go well. And then a nice thing of that is that if you unlike failures, if you, if you have failure and you want to get away from a bad situation, any direction is good. If you want to get a good situation, there's only one way to go, but you need to find it. So it is not avoidance. Its approach. We should be considering and when you manage safety, we shouldn't manage it by his absence, but by his presence we should look at what happens about, about the the the the access, the presence of safety. What what characterizes the presence of safety. And so here's the here's the logic of safety to you see when when when nothing happens, it's because when things go well is because humans find ways they all come. Design force interest is it's because performance, they adjust their performance to to immediate demands and the conditions. It's because pretty pretty procedures we used in the context of the situation. And it's because the inter event and things look like like they may go wrong. And if you see if you then look at why do accidents? We have accidents for the very same reasons. And we need to understand that we need to look at that better. Yeah. But the truth is if you look around it every day lows of what we do goes well from morning to night. If you go to the supermarket here and you will you look for something it's there on the shelf. And if it's if it's not to say why the hell wasn't there, what are they thinking of? But if it's there, you never say why is it there? Which you think you should because it's a small actually. And usually usually it's usually things will work and you should. You know the funny thing is we never stop. And and I would say worry about it, we never stop and and consider why things work. We always consider why they don't work because that's unexpected. It's we just expected to work. But in some sense, it's just as unexpected when things work as when it don't work. If you look at it in the right way. So so why do things then go well? And we have to have some sorry to see that. We have some theory about that. It comes from resilience engineering. You say things the world because we are able to respond in a flexible way to what happens. We're able to learn both from what works and what doesn't work. We're able to monitor what goes on. There was this question and debate yesterday account don't remember who acted about monitoring measurement. And so officer was I thought of another example say when I think it was a lady who was the question and say, I always want to say to you cook immediate. Do you monitor or do you measure? I don't think you mentioned very much you monitor you simply, you know, you see you're still in the part and you sort of have the feeling this is right. There's no measurement of force and talk that tells you no, no. I need to put a little more of that into it. So we we monitor all the time. We we do it very well. And the last thing is we were able to anticipate anticipate to look ahead to see what's coming. And I think that's what I think will work because we're able to do these these four things what you call the systemic potentials and that's what you that's what you'd knowledge and and build and support in an organization because then you will also be safe and it will be very productive at the same time. I think that's good. So respond money learn and anticipate. So I told you what we shouldn't learn from. That's what Henrik wrote in 1931. So what should we learn from? We should learn from what happens and how it how it happens. We should look at what people actually do and and try and learn from them with the other day as we were walking down the street before a guy going up on the ladder to to take down one of the christmas decorations a little bit early. I think a very tall letter and there was another guy standing at the foot of the letter holding a letter and there was another guy in a tree nearby with a rope and the guy who climbed up the letter had a rope in his hand. And I thought that's not going to help very much reforms. This has got very strong hands. Uh, but when I see that, I always say someone say, still he's done it before and nothing. He hasn't hasn't killed themselves before. That's why he thinks it works. And that's why people do things they've done it before. And it worked. That's why they keep doing it and we need to, we need to look at the situation they're in and try to understand why they're doing it and and how they're doing it and also why why they come to to this, this habit and also maybe even a social norm, this is what you do. You don't be a sissy, don't tie it around your waist, holding your hand. And uh, so I think that's what, that's what we should learn from. We should learn from. I used the chance before work is done, not, not from what is imagined, That's very important. See what actually happens and try and learn from that. And sometimes sometimes you'd be surprised at what happens. I think we can also look at ourselves and say, how often do we think do we do things exactly the way they should be done? Because we know we're smart and you know, in this situation this is a good way of doing it. So we know we know this works by experience, so that's what we do and we know it, we know it's not dangerous because we've never been hurt. Fine. I, I remember once in South Africa had a bunch of of work inspectors and talk to them and I said to them, be honest, how many of you get into your car and start driving, put then put on the safety built in about half of them raised hands because you should, you know, of course you shouldn't do that, you should put on your build before it starts to drive. Even the first meter because we know where the most accidents happen. They happen in the 1st, 1st, 1st bit of the movement and many people sort of forget that because they've been doing it all their lives and they haven't had a crash yet, so it's perfectly safe to do it like that and and they save, you know, maybe half a second every time and I don't know what, what, what that amounts to do a lifetime. But you know what, what could happen if if if something goes wrong and it's more than half a second that you lose. So another thing that's important is is and when we deal with with with, with safety and every anything else that you say? I want to say the problems and solutions must match. So simple problems could possibly have simple solutions, but complex problems never have simple solutions and discuss discussing a complex problem as a simple problem by offering a simple solution. Actually, it doesn't make the problem any simpler. It only makes it almost certain that the solution is not going to work. So that's that's what you need to keep in mind. I know I'm making your life difficult, but that's why I'm here and I think that was the end of it. So, so we have time I think to take some questions. Diane is that correct? Yes, we do. Right. So I'm holding the mic who would like to ask a question. Hands up. Oh is it that scary? Oh thank you. Great. We have a volunteer come here dr paul Nagle big fan like we all are. Um could you comment on your thoughts about high reliability, organizing and safety to? Is this part of the same? Are there similarities, Are they completely different? I'd like to hear your thoughts sir. Your, he asked about the similarities between stations two and high the library different sensations. Well as far as I know the the idea of a sorrows came about after Charles Perrot's book when people said that that some organizations did have didn't have as many accidents as they thought they should have according to Charles parole. So I think a charro is still focused on what goes wrong and and and and and and noticing that. And and I have a friend you know you used to be a navy pilot And he told me one time that that he flew on fluent carriers and he told me one time when he when he read about a sorrow and they had one example was to carry and he said he couldn't understand because his comrades were crashing left and right. Why why did they call it the higher higher village organization? But the H. R. O. Was just clearing the deck before the planes took off and after they had landed and had nothing to do with his colleagues dying when they were flying. So he was very confused about that now. He's a professor at the business school in Bergen in Norway. I don't know if there's a moral in that probably not eric. Um Thank you again. I'll say what the last questioner said and thank you for being here. I know I think it's your first big trip and uh and thanks, we're all really honored that you're here with us because it's you've influenced so much of how we think. Um So thank you one thing that you said to me once that I still haven't reconciled that I wondered if you can comment on um and I hope I'm saying this right but as I think you're a purist and I practice safety one and safety two together. Um and I wonder if you can comment on whether you think that works or if you think that to be really safe in the future. We need to come to a place where we're just focusing on safety too. Thanks terry. I should shouldn't be, I'm not, I'm not to happy happy about the term safety and safety to but but they seem to have people said so. I would rather say well we should be concerned about this to understand how how work is done and make sure that we do everything we can so that it goes well and I wouldn't call that safety. Choosing my concern is to make sure that things work and go work. I think we all we all want that to happen. Did you answer your question hi um yesterday or Tuesday you said something that piqued my interest. You said um I had been thinking along these lines and testing out. You said I think we should not use the word safety but we should switch to safely an adverb. Um Could you expound more about that and where what that that might take us? And also will you write something about that? That's not deep in a book? I I am sorry I have to admit I'm actually working on a book on mine mining safety with two other guys who knows about mining. I don't know know anything about mining. I was professor at the School of Mining in France but they don't have any mining there. That's probably why they appointed me. So I didn't didn't need to know anything about mining and I didn't learn anything about mining there. So so we are writing this book and we started out by calling it managing mining safety. And after why we agreed we should call it managing mining safely. Because that's what about about managing mining that's what mining companies do. They want to manage their mining. So they so they get some revenue and some profit and they wanted to safely so that people people aren't killed on the ground because mining can be very dangerous. I had an experience and I went down a coal mine in Australia some years ago and I had a funny experience because you know, they drive up, drive up down in little cars and, and, and they just take any cars around and and take that and use it. And we got into your car trying to go up again and I tried tried to close the door, but it wouldn't close. And he said, well, this one doesn't work just outside the doors to drive and I felt extremely safe. But we did get up to the surface as you can see, we have time for one more question any anybody, I'm sure there's a soul here who would like to hear has a curiosity for, for Professor Hall Nagel. Oh, Oh john wilkes. You want to talk about the God of the Devil? Come on. No, I'm actually gonna ask a softball, what is your favorite book that you've written? The 1? The one I I think is my favorite is actor. The principle. Mm. Great. Why? Because I thought it was a good idea. Thank you. I, I don't think it's often we have the opportunity to luminary like yourself. So thank you. So there you go. That's gonna pretty much sum it up for us. I hope you've learned some things on this one because I think you had a lot of great information to share and some things to make you question things that you might be doing within your organization, taken listen to that move forward and see how you can make this world a little bit better than what it was the day before. It's always gonna be the important part as we get to hang out anyways. I've been your safety manager and host jay Allen and until next time be safe. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information, assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the physician of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise. Without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, J Allen
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[00:00:04] spk_0: this show is brought to you by safety. Well hello and welcome to an all new episode of the J Allen show. I really do hope that everything is good and grand inside of your neck of the woods. So let's start talking right away. If you hung out last week with us, we were streaming live for at least part of the event. We were hanging out at the Job Hopkins Hospital or john Hopps Children's Hospital. I probably should better say at the ST Petersburg florida for the safety to practical application conference that was taking place and listen, there was a lot of stuff that was going on and I will tell you we were able to stream some of this on safety FM dot com. So hopefully you did get to listen to it. And as I was going through this whole agenda and taking a look around, I did notice that there was kind of a special event that was not announced and did occur. And Jim Frederick from OSHA showed up and he decided to come on down and let us know about what is going on with OSHA. And I thought that this might be an excellent episode to bring to you about what is going on with OSHA, What things are in place. What has been happening over the last year or so with what is going on with OSHA. So definitely not make you wait any longer. And let's bring in the speech to Jim Frederick, the deputy assistant Secretary at the U. S. Department of Law Labor. OSHA, let's go ahead and have him go ahead and let you know what exactly is going on. All right,
[00:01:45] spk_1: So good afternoon. It is a pleasure to spend a few minutes chatting with you. And I really really do hope that this is as much interaction as we can have in a room with 300 of our closest friends. So so you know if there are questions as we're talking here, I would love to to pause here. The question let's talk through them because that is is truly the more important thing of being in this room with you today is to to have that chance for some dialogue and interaction. And again as I said earlier, I am going to be here all day. My flight back to Washington D. C. Is at least delayed until 10 p.m. So you know, there's a chance you may see me looking a lot like this again tomorrow. But um, but you know, we'll just see how that goes when they tell you that your eight o'clock flight is delayed at like 11. I am you know, you're in trouble. Right? So um okay so I thought it was it would be important to to kind of start with a little bit of just just a little bit more deeper introduction of of why I'm here at a safety to conference to talk with you all and and again um um in about nine days I'll have been with OSHA and the federal government for for two years and I had never worked for the government before that. So it has been an experience of real learning and you know, if you take yourself back two years ago, I know we've all been trying to forget the last couple of years, but if you take yourself back two years ago, it was truly um an incredibly challenging time for all of us. Um but for for me I had to land in a new organization and learn the organization on a teams meeting in front of me in my kid's bedroom. And so you know, it was truly a challenge because I'm so such a spatial learner that you know, I learn and understand where people are by where kind of where you came from into the meeting and to just have all of the brady bunch boxes on the computer every day after day after day after day after day um was was really difficult for me to, to learn the organization. I also try to explain that and I'll talk a little bit about my work before being at OSHA. Um uh if OSHA had a frequent flyer program, I thought I was a diamond member, but I really have learned a great deal more about the agency. There's a lot more to the organization and the agency and the operations and the administration of the agency than I ever recognized as a stakeholder from the outside. But but it's important to keep in mind um that that just like all of you, you all are impor and stakeholders to the agency and that's what I spent 30 years doing DNA stakeholder um For from my perspective in the work I did the most of that time over those 30 years was doing worker health and safety um in the labor movement with labor unions and representing workers on health and safety related issues. Um So and I wanted to talk just a little bit about because for them that time period while I was working the vast majority of the time before I was at OSHA was 25 years of that time period was with the United Steelworkers Union and you know, the steelworkers are a union with a really bad name because the name doesn't explain what the organization, the members actually do. The members of the steelworkers union work in all different kinds of industries. And the quick best way to describe that is is Is on the day that I retired from there in 2018, I think it was 2,018. Um the three largest local unions at the steelworkers were the workers at the Newport News shipyard making um aircraft carriers and some work on submarines. Um the faculty and staff at the University of Toronto and a health care facility in California. So those were the three largest local unions at the steel workers and I think they still are the three largest local unions of the steel workers, so, so, you know, so there are, are are members of the steel workers doing all different kinds of work. And so one of the things that, that did 25 years that I was there was gave me the opportunity to be in all different kinds of workplaces and, you know, everything from from, from mining to uh department of Energy, weapons complex facilities. Um, and you know, a joke about the fact of one day being in um um saskatoon Saskatchewan in a mine and literally two days later having to put a suit on and being at a hearing on capitol Hill. So really some variety of work, the couple of things that were very prevalent over the course of my career, um, was one a program that the union does. That actually was very proud of the fact that the union did this, but but would respond to workplace fatalities and serious injuries and and kind of a team of a couple of people would come out from, from our office in Pittsburgh pennsylvania and and help with the investigation process and, and I used kind of help in air quotes, because our role was try to engage and involve being a representative of the victim, um, you know, in the course of a fatality the victim was no longer there, but um um, also to try to help the local union understand what transpired and learn from it, so that we could also take back and share that with workplaces with similar hazards. And so sometimes, you know, if this was a piece of mobile equipment involved or something, we could share it with a broad array of, of local unions, across the steelworkers unions, and, And other times it was something very specific to a workplace that didn't have much ability to share about it, but, but so we did, unfortunately, a lot of that, and over the course of 25 years at the Union, um, I started out being one of the investigators and eventually was kind of the person that coordinated and led that program. We investigated 750 fatalities over 25 years. And so, you know, there's a rough number actually did not keep track because I'm not sure I could stand here today if we were really keeping Of that number, but 750 fatalities. And again, we learned a great deal. But one of the things that I took from that experience was, there was often the responsibility to go to the victim's house and have a conversation with loved ones about what happened. There were always a lot of questions. And, and you know, two things I've always taken from that experience of sitting at a front porch or a kitchen table with a family member or family members. We're one all of our lives are very complicated and to, um, they always had a lot more questions than I will ever have answers for and, and I know many of you have have similar experiences with the work that you do and some of that very similar work with serious injury and fatality investigations and that's something we share in that front. Um the other thing that I spent a lot of time dealing with over the course of those years at the Steelworkers Union were workers being blamed for health and safety problems and you know, we could, I could spend hours, we can talk nothing about anything else, but this for the next several days, um but but it's fair to say this was just a very regular, frequent occurrence and, and came in many different shapes and sizes, I guess it was kind of the, the all you can eat buffet, that Todd was setting up earlier with the Fajitas or apps in their own place, but it was the various ways to blame workers for things that were taking place that were really system and operational airs in workplaces and, and I think back of of the discipline that is typically would come along with that and, and discipline for many times was often people lost their jobs. Um, at the Steelworker Representative workplaces, generally speaking, it was the best job in town, it was the best job in town if you had, if you were working at an hourly workplace and people were losing those jobs and losing their livelihood as a result of things that were really systematic in nature and operational in nature and and I think back to that and just you know, wish we could have done things differently for a lot of years. The only reason I wanted to frame that is when I was first introduced to new view of safety and safety to was was through a variety of sources and reaching out and reading and some of the materials that were out and about 15 years ago, um doesn't seem like it was that long ago, it seems like it's just the other day, but 15 or so years ago and and really taking to a number of things and then having the opportunity to, I think Todd, one of the first people I saw, so I speak on the topic and and really taking and resonating the message that Todd was sharing with the audience about so many things that we were experiencing across the work that I was doing with the Steelworkers union and others were doing across um the labor movement with health and safety and so we really tried to, I tried to really internalize that and how could we take what we're learning from from this group, talking about new view of safety to and try to integrate it into the work that we were doing. Um so, so that's a quick kind of foundation and background of, of where that came to um a couple of things I had to, I had to accept and understand and have tried to to learn and move on from was was shifting my mindset from one of of really focusing on prevention, on workplace health and safety and moving toward prevention and control's and making certain that the robust controls are in place to guarantee that when something does operational upset occurs that we have the control in place to to provide the person with the capacity to get back to work the next day. Um another thing that, that I think was discussed earlier today was was the area around just hazard identification and for me it was the realization that hazards. Um I always had thought of them as a very static thing of its kind of a noun and hazards are much, much more of an action word, a verb. And you know, coming to that realization also gave me the ability to think in terms of the question earlier from, I think it was from the florida in the panel about how do we change the mindset of of every accident that is preventable. And one of the things we were, we were starting to do around the time I was ready to leave the Steelworkers Union and they're still working on is to change the dynamic of the conversation around um prevention to prevention and control and also to better understanding that that those hazards that we're trying to identify and control and workplaces are really a moving target. And if we only look at it as a static photograph, we're not going to ever really make a difference in the control of those hazards. Um, so that was just again, a bit of background of, of kind of where I came to to this conversation around around this topic and and again, what I hope in the next few minutes is to share with you some a few things from the occupational safety and health administration. Um, OSHA, as we said earlier, you know, the only person here that gets to start from being a four letter word from the organization, um, but to talk about a few of the things we're doing, but then to leave you with some concrete ideas of some things that we can be doing together, um you from your your workplace or your industry with the agency as we try to move forward and progress on health and safety. Um, so one more thing that, that, you know, kind of again to frame to frame, kind of, the way that I tick and operate is um, I start every day by thinking about the number 14 and the number 14 to me, the reason I think about the number 14 is 14 is the number of workplace fatalities that are going to occur today, tomorrow and every day this year. And so I start my day by thinking about that because I want to think about it in terms of the, the human toll that that really takes and you know, again, going back to that experience of, of sitting at kitchen tables with family members who have lost the loved one and understanding the impact that that is and and again, I recognize again, and talking with a group like this, y'all have had similar experiences and I certainly um certainly, you know, we can talk about it in the hallway conversations a lot easier than talking about it with the full group. But I start the day to think of that because it also helps me to motivate and understand the things that OSHA needs to be full focusing on in order to try to shift the dynamics now, like I said, I've been there almost two years and the 2021 BLS um fatality data was released just a month or so ago and the numbers from 29 2022 2021 actually increased on the number of workplace fatalities. So there's a lot to be discussed on that as well. And you know, again, not quite the conversation of this topic in this presentation, but, but always happy to have further conversations on that and what's going on. Um the other thing and the other reason I think of that every day is it's kind of my motivational factor of, of the work that we're doing across the agency and how, how we're putting those operations in place to try to have an effect on workplace health and safety. But um, one of the things I do at the end of the week, this is my motivational factor at the end of the week, on friday afternoon or evening or night. The last thing I do before I turn off the computer for the day is to just simply look back on my calendar and I try to pick out three, maybe four things that happened across the entire footprint of OSHA's an agency that were really important. Um, um, things that took place to address workplace health and safety and hopefully have an effect on those serious injuries and fatalities. Um, the last thing I want to mention around the fatality and serious injury issue is, you know, my take is that fatalities. Um, for workers happen in one of two ways. One is really fast happens like that split second, something changed, Some operational upset occurred and the hazard shifted and a fatality occurred. The second way is very slow and it's, it's typically related to occupational health issues that are not to be, you know, mistakenly included in that 14 a day because those are above and beyond what we're talking about in that data. And, and so it's just important when I've thought of these is to think of how fast something can change and how we need to have. Um, the interventions at work places that are systematic in nature and try to make certain that the controls are in place. Um, so with that, the moving on into a couple of things, um, see if I can do this. One of the things we've been talking about for the last two years at OSHA is to to try to make certain that we are when we're having the opportunity to talk to to employers to industry associations, um to talk about the concept of of health and safety being established as a core value in every workplace, and that's kind of, you know, this ambiguous term. What are we talking about with that? And what we're really talking about with that is integrating health and safety management systems in workplaces to make certain that every workplace has a health and safety management system. Many of them just don't recognize it, to making certain that we are doing a better job of recognizing and understand the system that's in place and making the improvements to that system to try to improve it and keep it moving in a positive area. I certainly had spent some time prior to this work working on health and safety management says systems and really truly focusing as with a couple of folks that are in the audience today, um really focusing on on things like the N. C Z 10 Standard of health and Safety management Systems of integrating and involving um safety to a new view of safety principles into the the management system standard and, you know what, I hope that it's fair to say that you all as practitioners in the health and safety space, thinking about safety too, have utilized that and see that as a valuable tool in your work. Um certainly something I hope about that you all have done, but but that's really what we have been meaning when we're talking about health and safety is a core value. We know that that people value safety and health for themselves and their families, when you ask people about what, what's important to them, the safety of themselves and safety of their family is always one of the top things that are listed. And so the role of OCE is to really ensure that employers understand this, that all of our stakeholders, the workers that go to work, understand that they have a right to voice their concerns to raise their voice and be heard. But unfortunately as we talked earlier on the panel, there are some employers in some workplaces where that's not easily done and you know, we hear a lot of that and we'll talk a little bit more about that as we go through here. Um so a couple of things that we're trying to do to help advance workplace health and safety. 11 of the principles that that we identified as a priority item for the agency was to better address um heat as an occupational health and safety hazard and and so earlier, oh gosh, it's not the same year anymore. Last year, I'm so used to saying earlier this year, but we're in the new year. Um so last year OSHA implemented a heat national emphasis program. And so what does that mean for the agency? And what does that mean for for you all as the regulated community for the agency? A couple of things that are of importance. One, it's the first time that the agency has ever had the capacity or put the resources into place to address heat hazards um in uh in something other than a responsive fashion that we are progressively acting on hotter days to work with employers to make certain that they have controls in place. Um pretty basic and simple controls in place at this juncture to to ensure that heat is addressed as part of their overall health and safety management system for employers. What we're hoping that the messages that were conveying our a couple of things, one we want to be seen as a resource. If there are questions and concerns, call us, ask us, let us talk about what's going on at your workplace in regard to this hazard and how you're putting in place the controls to make certain that this hazard doesn't cause serious illnesses or fatalities. Um, one kind of side note and uh, you know, a pitch for the OSHA website, um which, you know, one of the things of figuring out the system of the government that I'm still working on this food, figuring out breaking the code of how things are placed on the, the OSHA website. But if you go to the ocean website and you go to a heat page, um there is, there's a very useful video. It's a seven minute video that tells the story of a fatality of a young man that went to work and didn't come home because of heat exposure in the workplace in Western new york. And and there's a couple of things that really resonate for me on that one is sometimes we don't think of new york state is the place where we have to have a really robust heat um program. So it's important excuse me to recognize that we have to have heat integrated into our health and safety management systems everywhere for all kinds of workplaces. And the second one was, this was a person, a young person, um and he was, you know, in very good physical condition. So he really emphasizes the importance of addressing heat in a proactive stance. And it's a seven minute video. And what I always say is if every person, every workplace in this country and around the world could watch this video from the Ceo to the person punching in on the time clock is a wonderful opportunity in seven minutes to really convey the message around the importance of heat as a health and safety hazard. So the, the OSHA workplace um heat national emphasis program is in place where right now in, in colder months in the Northern hemisphere, but we will continue on this work and there are other activities around heat that will be continuing from the agency as we move forward in getting our arms around how better to address this hazard on a long term basis. Um, the one other side note is within the OSHA National Advisory Committee on occupational Safety and Health. Kash is the acronym often used for that. We have established a heat working group and have, I'll watch the number but 25 or so experts from across industry and worker organizations to help us understand how he is addressed in various industries and where other industries need some help on that matter. So we're trying to do some things around heat to, to really help employers integrate better programs into their health and safety management systems. Um, I also wanted to say a couple words around trenching and and it kind of starts with a bit of a story and this story is not something that involves me personally, but involved a couple of ocean compliance officers in Omaha Nebraska and and to OSHA compliance officers went out to a construction work site uh, to do what we do and the enforcement lane of the work of OSHA. And when they got to the work site, they saw a couple of different activities going on, they saw some work being done on a roof and they also saw a trench. And so since there were two of them, they could have both of them gone to the roof first or both of them gone to the trench first, but they split up and one went to the roof to make sure that folks didn't disappear if they were folks working without fall protection system in place. And the other one went to the trench to see what was going on over there. And when, when the person got, when the show got to the trench, he realized that was a worker in the trench working and there was not proper shoring in place for that trench. He asked the worker to come out of the trench so they could talk about what was going on and talk with the supervisor about what was going on. The supervisor was actually operating the back. Oh, so he was right there. And as the worker came out of that trench, the part of the trench actually collapsed. And so you know, it's one of those scenarios had the ocean inspector not showed up, had they not split up and one got onto the roof and one got to the trench, they may not have gotten that worker out of there and that worker might have been very seriously injured, injured or killed in that workplace on that day. And so that's one of those examples of how things happened so quickly because the the slide of that trench happens like that, but it's also something to talk about in terms of, of controls of hazard and, and one of the things, again, one of the learnings I've always taken from, from understanding um, safety to is always say it's not about safety one or safety to its safety one and safety to, we need to make certain that workplaces continue to do the proper blocking and tackling as we take on these new challenges associated with the new view and safety to principles. Um, and so that's a great example entrenching where one thing that we're seeing across the country, the United States is an increase in fatalities entrenching the calendar year last year we had about twice as many fatalities that we heard of from trenching as we had had in any of the prior several years. So what's going on? Why is there an increase of fatalities entrenching? I don't have all the answers, but we know a couple of things that have been going on. One is, there is definitely some increased amount of construction that has been taking place in this country over the prior couple of years. A second is we recognize some earlier conversations around um, workers that have left the workforce, um, also effects in the construction industry contractors that have left the workforce. And so what we have are significant amount of contractors who up until recently, perhaps were not a contractor and don't have the same lead experience, knowledge and institutional capacity as some of their predecessors. Did. They just happen to have the pickup truck with, um, um, the ability to rent tobacco and come out and do the trenching work. And so we need to be cognizant. And again, what we have been trying to say and the message we've been delivering from OSHA is we want to be part of this process to help to make certain that controls are in place. We certainly have the perception and I think this is very fair that we understand and collectively the hazards associated with trenching, and we also know how to control them so that we can safely do work in a trench. Um, but um, but we know that it's not happening in all cases. And so, so we also are making a focused effort, um, in the portion of OSHA that is the enforcement arm of the agency to, to be cognizant of trenching, going on to make certain that, that our compliance officers are getting out. They see trenching when they're going to another worksite, they're stopping, they're taking a look at the trenching operations. And when we find trenching hazards that are not properly controlled, we want to do strong enforcement to make certain that we're able to share that message across not only that contractor, but other contractors in those communities, so that they'll do trenching with proper controls because we certainly would like to see the number of fatalities and trenches be zero. Um, and we know how to control those hazards. Um, I talked a couple times about health and safety management systems and you know, I love that the fact that there are 27 different acronyms utilized for health and safety management systems, but at OSHA we have have seemed to institutionalize and used safety and health management systems or as we refer to them as just as shims. But I was always kind of an occupational health and safety management systems or the O H. S. M. S. But um, safety and health management systems. Um, one of the things that we have been trying to do is to help employers have the tools that they need. Um, to to do kind of the couch to five K. Um, conversion get off the couch and get to the point that you can start running the race. And so we have been putting in place step by step, very user friendly short training tools for employers to recognize and understand the essentials around health and safety management systems and implement them in their workplace. And and this work is primarily taking place um, through the program at OSHA that's referred to as safe and sound. So, alright, so this is, this is my question. First question for y'all anybody here heard of safe and sound campaign at OSHA anybody, a participant of safe and sound. Okay, so good. There's a couple. All right, so you guys are my my guinea pigs on this. I hope, I hope you guys I did not plant this right. You were you were not a plant that I brought in. Okay. Um, is it a pretty user friendly operation for you to be part of the safe and sound system at OSHA? Very user friendly. So we have this program as we saw there were only a few hands. Not very many people know about this, but there are thousands of workplaces that are involved with are safe and sound campaign on an annual basis. And what we try to do is focus on um kind of a week long inter invention with with workplaces where we focus on health and safety management systems through safe and sound. And that happens generally speaking in the summer months. It's moved around a bit over the years, but I think it was like the first week of august last year if my bad memory is working correctly. And what we tried to do is to capture the good works that are going on in workplaces and share them with other employers of what's going on to improve interventions around health and safety management systems. So for those of you that didn't raise your hands and haven't heard about the safe and sound campaign at OSHA, please use don't go to the OSHA website and use the search engine on our website. It's not good. I didn't say that by the way. I didn't say that wasn't said here didn't happen. Used your favorite search engine. I was gonna say one by name, but I'm probably not supposed to write, but, but use your favorite search engine and just search OSHA safe and sound and it's safe with a plus sign for the and um, and please, we encourage everyone to participate. There's, there's really, it's like a money back guarantee it causes your and we'll give you nothing back. But, but it's a money back guarantee that you can enter into this. There's there's nothing that you have to share with the government. You don't have to tell us where all of your, your hazards are hidden. We don't want to know. We just want to know the good things happening on health and safety management systems and would love to grow that from 5000 to 500,000 over the next couple of years, if possible. So, so safe and sound is one thing that we'd love for folks to do while I'm on the OSHA website. The one other thing I would love to point your attention to is the OSHA Quick Takes electronic newsletter. And again, I don't know how many folks have heard of Quick Takes a few more. So there are roughly 503 100,000, 389 thous and I think was the number on the report on monday morning. Um, um, subscribers to the OSHA Quick takes electronic newsletter. Um It doesn't bog down your inbox with a with an email every couple of days. It's it's roughly twice a month um with maybe uh an add on once in a while and again, if you just google search OSHA Quick takes, it will find the area that's signed up for a Quick Takes newsletter and really encourage you to do that. It's very short quips about several things that are happening at OSHA on any given time because one of the things I hope that we're able to do is to to make available all of the parts of the agency to everyone. Um that is a stakeholder in part of the regulated community of the occupational safety and health administration. And the Quick takes is one for a two to kind of understand where OSHA is doing some things. So please sign up for quick takes while you're while you're looking for the safe and sound campaign to sign up for that as well, um blah blah blah blah. So um one other thing I'm going to come back to it in a few minutes is I want you to to think about this. I'm gonna plant this right now where you come back to it in a couple of minutes um is to think about in terms of health and safety management systems that include um a safety to practice as part of that system of of what information you may be able to share with OSHA the agency. And in sharing one more thing before I move off this slide in sharing with the agency. Um there's one more, one more interaction audience interaction question here I have for you all, how many of you with any of the facilities that you work with have had a proactive pick up the phone and call your area OSHA office and have a conversation about what you do at your workplace. Alright, that's about five. That's five more than than happens in some rooms. When I asked that question, um, I wasn't eavesdropping earlier, but I think I heard you say that you're from Pittsburgh, is that right? So, um Pittsburgh area office, great area office. I lived in Pittsburgh for 25 years. So I'm speaking with a little bit of bias about, you know, the steel, some things. So, um, but how was your interaction when you called ocean and chatted with? Okay, okay, very interested in. Cool. So, so we hope that that isn't something that can happen with folks on an ongoing basis. I have always said this was this was always my crack, the OSHA code at my time at the Steelworkers Union and this was the one thing I asked every local union in the United States to do was to give the safety committee about a half of day of union leave and let them make an appointment with the area OSHA office or in the state plans the state plan OSHA office and go there and make an appointment with the area director and show up as the safety committee to meet them. My trick was always show up with a whole box of donuts because if you show up to a meeting with a box of donuts they have to ask everybody else in the office to come and sit down in the conference room with you and then you get to meet everybody and not just the one person that you've got to make the appointment with. So I would really greatly encourage all of you to do that. I know you know some of you with you know corporate role functions where you have basically the entire footprint of the OSHA agency but you know pick out a couple of spots and do that. There are some, one of the things that's the greatest part of this job is the opportunity to get out and meet some of the folks that work for the agency. And you know I have this uh there are 90 c some area OSHA offices in the federal OSHA footprint. And I have this goal, it's probably not possible. But in four years to visit at least half of them. And when I go, you know I do exactly what I just said, I go and you know make an appointment and I go and I ask everybody to come in the conference room and we just sit down and introduce myself and we talk I hear about it. So, so one of the interesting parts of the agency. Sorry, I'm getting way off the safety to topic for a second. But one of the interesting parts of the agency is last year, the calendar year of 2022 OSHA hired about 393 people new to the agency to come and work at OSHA. The agency is pretty small. There's only about 2100 people, 21 2100 and 97 I think was the number on monday morning. Um, And so hiring right around 400 people is hiring a good chunk of the agency in one year. And when you go to one of those area offices, uh, you know, you might find this odd, but one of the areas where we have a lot of turnover is with the compliance officer in the area offices. And so um, area offices have a whole lot of new folks generally speaking. Um, and so again, it's a wonderful opportunity to me people who have come to the agency and, and you know, hear about their energy and their passion and their commitment for the mission of making workplaces safer for workers in each and every day. Um, so that's been a real advances that I've had over this couple of years when they've let me out of the beltway occasionally. So, um, a couple of other things that we, we have been doing that that really relate to this conversation um in september we held a worker's voice summit and um this was the first time that something like this was held at the physical location of the Department of Labor building, the Frances Perkins building in Washington, D. C. And we invited uh just over 300 people. So I think there's about 300 people in this room you guys said right around 300 so about this many people um and and we were kind of limited on the size of people by the room that we have available in the Frances Perkins building. Um that's the biggest room we've got. So that's how many folks we were able to invite. And we had that many folks that came in and and they were workers from various walks of life. Some of them were from the labor movement, organized labor folks and some of them were immigrant workers that had been in this country for a short time doing things like domestic house work. And we listened, we listened for 2.5 days about the health and safety conditions in their workplaces and their concerns and where they needed help. And it was incredibly eye opening. And again, one of the things that is such a value to me about understanding better understanding as I continue to learn the principles around safety, Two of the value of listening to workers about hazards in their workplaces and then utilize what we hear as we turn it around and and form the policies of the agency as we move forward. So again, we learned some incredibly valuable things there. Um we we unfortunately learned quite a bit more than we have the capacity to get to right away, but we've made a very good list and we're trying to knock them out one at a time. And we unfortunately also heard a lot from workers that are outside of the direct jurisdiction of the agency that were participating in that meeting. So you know a lot but a lot to still be done and that goes to to the comment I made earlier about you know, employers kind of coming in my my very generic three buckets of there are many, many workplaces where safety and health is not going well. And so that is really why the agency, in my view, one of the important parts of the agency and the making rules and setting standards and enforcing them is vital to you all to help raise that floor so that those employers can't um really undercut the good work that you're doing and and again, we hear about that in many, many places as we're talking to folks. Um um so I really hope there are a few questions here in the nine minutes I have left, but as I said at the start of this, you know, we hear about The 5000 workers that died from a workplace acute traumatic injury in the year 2021 and again, there's all kinds of conversation around those numbers and challenges to what we're, what we're counting and what we're not counting and the pandemic and all the sorts of things that come along with this. But but again, it's so important to recognize and the work that you all are doing in safety to that the voice of every worker man matters and that you can learn such a great deal of information is you're integrating what you hear from workers into the work you're doing on health and safety. So we first, thank you for that work and again want to try to open this up if there are a couple of questions, comments, no rotten tomatoes have come this way yet, but I'm waiting for it cause I'm gonna duck there. Thank you. I want to question to see that my colleagues here in healthcare understand how dire the situation is in health care in terms of workforce safety. So you have commercial construction on the screen. Do you have any, do you recall what the TCS total case incident rate for commercial construction 1.9 for every 100 workers I believe it is. So that's the 2021 day to 6.1 for health care. So I picked commercial construction because we're living in a hotel across from a commercial construction site and if you look out if you're lucky enough like me to have a beautiful view and in an ocean 30 qualification, you can look across and go, he's tied off, he's tied off. He's tied off. But I just want to point that out because I don't think we realize how much we are undercutting our efforts in safety to buy, debilitating the workforce, right? We just, we're just crushing ourselves internally. We're reducing our capacity to respond because we have six times the injury rate that many of these other organizations do. Thanks. So I kind of always think of that. Thank you for that. And I truly appreciate and it's such a vital with so many folks in the room from the health care sector to recognize the the, you know, health care, I think from the outside from the non health and safety professional, the health professional not involved with health care. Think of it as a safe place to work. And and there are such high frequencies of injuries, illness, workplace violence, um, all sorts of things going on that need to be addressed, um, and need to be integrated into the management systems in those in those facilities and every facility. And it goes from the small um, doctor's office to the large 15,000 person hospital complex facility and everything in between. Um, um, so, so, and I also I also promised to share a couple of things that we thought we hope that you all can do helping us move forward as an agency. And I of course turn the page on my notebook and thought, I forgot to say those three things. So let me really quickly just say these three things because these are like the take home parts um one we know that you all that are in this room are very much engaged involved with safety too. And we want to hear about it. If you are having an interaction with OSHA either in a positive proactive format or perhaps it's as part of an ocean's infection, please share with the compliance officer's what you're doing and specifically point out safety to, we're we're we're talking about this around the agency and you know, I was telling someone before lunch about the fact that we can start a book club, Jeff lifts idea from from outside of OSHA. I stole it and took it to OSHA but we started Book club of um of some of the topic books from this arena and have been doing that. And then as I was explaining to that person. And so I come back on me, I hadn't hadn't gotten back to that group at the end of december to remind them, we have to have a call to talk about the most recent book that we talked about. Um so so we're doing that. We would love for you to the second thing is if you are engaged in, you know, again in the enforcement part of OSHA, um in typically those then result in some conversations about a possible settlement. One of the things that we're really going to be focused on in this next calendar year and beyond is the integration of improvements to health and safety management systems as part of settlement agreements. So we want to make sure this room, we want to make certain that safety to principles are in integrated into that and we're gonna need, y'all's help to bring those things up when you're meeting with OSHA on an ongoing basis. Um, the second thing on my list, I did cover it was to to please go to our website and sign up for the safe and sound campaign. Um and the third thing is we need your help to share your success stories that engage and involve safety too. And, and I would ask you, you know, occasionally, sometimes helping safety folks wind up in Washington D. C. For something. If you're in Washington D. C. Give us a ring, call us or email me. We would love to have a conversation and talk further about this and bring some of the senior leadership of the career staff at the uh that OSHA the agency into the room to hear the things that you are doing in the successes that you are seeing because we don't get the chance to do that very often. Um I sure thought our door would be, you know, being broken down by folks that want to come and talk to the agency about the good things they're doing in the workplace is not the case not the case. Do we have one more time or not? Okay, we're
[00:43:45] spk_0: done. It's all good. So hopefully you enjoyed the episode as much as I did. You know any time that you get to hang out with Jim Frederick and see exactly what's going on with the world of OSHA. It is an excellent time as you are where Jim has been a friend of the show for quite some time even when he was back with the with the union back in the day when he used to come out and hang out with us. So there you go. That's a lot of great information coming from Jim right there in regards of what is going on with OSHA Anyways. I have been your safety manager and host jay allen and until the next episode be safe. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the physician of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, J. Allen.
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Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay Allen talks about being the person you want to be. Would like to thank Todd Conklin for being involved with this message.
Hear it all today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Jim Poesl from Safety Wars. This conversation goes all over the place, they discuss Jim career, pain points during Jim youth, and the state the world is in to name a few.
Don't miss this episode of The Jay Allen Show, featuring Jim Poesl from Safety Wars.
Today on Safety FM Mini - Jay discusses how we need to take a moment to relax. To enjoy this episode the best, take a listen with your headphones.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Melanie Marshall. Melanie is the author of the book Trust- The Foundation of Healthy Organizations and Teams. Melanie in the past and present had/have positions based in trust, listen to a few - military veteran, personal trainer, public servant, service delivery executive, coach, and leadership advisor.
Enjoy this conversation with Melanie Marshall, today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini - Jay talks about the use of the chaos monkey. What is a chaos monkey? Hear about it today on Safety FM Mini!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with the one and only Sam Goodman from The Hop Nerd fame! During their conversation, Sam talks about his new book “Safety Sucks — The Manifesto”. How he has been staying busy during the pandemic and what is next on his journey.
Enjoy this conversation with Sam Goodman on this episode of The Jay Allen Show on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay talks about how you can make your safety wish, a reality.
Hear it all today on Safety FM Mini!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we present a special edition of Around The Safety Podcast. This show airs exclusively on Safety FM Plus. As we are coming off of the holiday weekend, please catch up and see what you have been missing around the web of safety.
Enjoy todays episode!
Today on Safety FM Mini- The doctor discusses, what safety event had the largest impact on your career.
Hear it today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Brye Sargent "The Safety Geek". During the conversation they discuss Brye's career, how she got into safety and what she loves about it!
Brye has been a dedicated Safety Professional for 20 years and has trained over 130 Safety Managers. Her passion is coaching and training safety managers, who struggle to get support for their program, effective strategies and techniques to change their company's culture and become safety leaders. The Safety Geek is an online resource featuring an active community, articles, blog posts, templates, and training focusing on management support, the psychology of safety and creating a safety culture.
Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show!
Today on Safety FM Mini- the doctor talks about taking a moment.
Hear it all today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Joshua Kreger. During their conversation, Josh discusses his career, the importance of leadership and how the journey started for him.
Hear it all today, on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Dr. Allen discusses controlling behaviors and some changes to how the pod is being numbered.
Hear it today on Safety FM Mini!
Today on The Jay Allen Show. Jay is broadcasting live from Safety Day 2021 - Presented by the ACFS. During this episode, Jay speaks with Emily Elrod from Apologetically Bold...I am not sorry for.
Take a listen to what Emily has to say during this live recording at Safety Day 2021
Today on Safety FM Mini - Jay speaks about one of his favorite subjects, the Hazard Matrix!
Here about it today on Safety FM Mini
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Daniel Neal from Bradsfield & Gorrie. Daniel discusses his career and how he got started in safety and how he got into HOP. This was , recorded live at ACFS - Safety Day 2021 from Orlando FL!
HOPNerd #SafetyRadio #SafetyPocast #EHS #SafetyDay #SAfetyFM #BITW #KOASM
Today on Safety FM Mini, The Doc discusses the importance of a mental health day. Do you take mental health days? If not, this is the episode for you!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Sam Goodman from The HOP Nerd podcast. They discuss Sam's new coauthored book Safety Sucks Manifesto. This is the first time Sam and Jay sit in person for an interview, recorded live at ACFS - Safety Day 2021 from Orlando FL!
HOPNerd #SafetyRadio #SafetyPocast #EHS #SafetyDay #SAfetyFM #BITW #KOASM
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss the subject of sexual assault.
Take a listen to this all important episode.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Apolonia Rockwell. Apolonia is the founder True Safety Services. During there conversation Apolonia describes how she got into and how she has loved the journey so far.
Hear it today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay asks that one important question - What are your needs now? See what he comes up with before the episode is over.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Sheldon Primus -Returns! Sheldon drops by to drop knowledge about new OSHA standard and regulations. Of course Jay and Sheldon get into their normal banter where they discuss a little of everything.
Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show!
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss the topic of all accidents being preventable.
Enjoy it today on Safety FM Mini!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Debbie Rodriguez. Debbie is the Co-founder of Quality Labor Management, Competitive Edge Partners and Consulting, and part of the board of National Association of Women in Construction.
Take a listen to this special episode featuring Debbie Rodriguez of The Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we take a look at our own mental health. Take moment and take listen to Jay and see what he has to say about this all important subject.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Brittany Smith. During the conversation Brittany discusses overdose, depression and the benefits of narcan and why more places need it.
Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we have a minor discussion about values and a look back over the last five years.
Enjoy it today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Sonia Funk! Sonia is the owner of the Whole Avocado. If Sonia sounds familiar, it's because she is a former singer song writer who has charted on Canadian radio. She now spends a lot of time speaking about wellness and mental health around the world.
Hear this in depth conversation between Sonia and Jay on The Jay Allen Show!
Lets put some thought into this Mini episode before we answer, What's Happening When Nothing Is Happening?
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Eric Labancz. Eric is the host of Empowered Life Hacks. Take a listen to this all encompassing conversation between Eric and Jay only on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Matt Jones. Matt is the Director/Principal Consultant of Advanced Safety, and, radio host of 'Health and Safety Unplugged' and 'Business Leaders New Zealand'. During the conversation Matt discusses his career, how he got into safety and how he got into radio.
You are not going to want to miss this one.
Today we have a very brief conversation about back up...you will understand by the end of the episode.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Ted Carew from The Ted Speaks Live Podcast. During the conversation Ted and Jay discuss how Ted got into safety, how his career in law enforcement took him down the safety path, and how Barney Fife had an impact on what he was doing.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay speaks about the all important conversation about how it's not pk for some safety practitioners if you don't agree with their methods.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Emily Cunis. Emily Cunis is a safety professional that is doing things the way she fit to serve a greater purpose for the safety community. Emily discusses during the interview, how she got involved in safety, being in Alaska and how she is involved with one of the largest entertainment companies in the world, all in the name of safety.
Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show!
Today on Safety FM Mini - We take a look at a miniature portion of the book, The Practice of Learning Teams
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Regina McMichael returns. During the conversation Regina discusses what has occurred with her over the last year, how training can be fun even using virtual platforms. What improvements she has seen in learning and what she is going to be doing next.
Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with comedian, DJ, host, streamer, and all-around great guy Flobo Boyce. During the conversation, Flobo discusses his career, his love for streaming, podcasting, and professional wrestling. Flobo also discusses the current stage of streaming.
Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we speak with Nippin Anand. During our conversation Nippin discusses some new technology that him and his team have created to track safety correctly.
Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show!
In this episode of Safety FM Mini, Dr. Allen talks about the last goodbye.
Keep this episode until the day you need it!
Today on The Jay Allen show, Jay speaks with Daniel J. Snyder, Ed.D. During the conversation, they discuss Daniels's career how he got involved with safety, how the military played a factor in what he does, and how he became the Safety Philosopher.Hear it all today on the Jay Allen Show. Hear it all today on the Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss some strange laws that are in place as of 2020.
Tell us what you think about these!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Steven Taibbi. Steven discusses his career and how he is a walking miracle! Steve has an amazing story that might change the way you look at life.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss some minor technics that could help you in the long run!
Today on The Jay Allen we speak with Danielle Dao. During the conversation Daniel discusses her career, how she got into the profession and some events that have changed everything in here career.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show!
Safety FM would like to thank Air Med Care for being the signature sponsor of this episode!
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss what it means to have Psychological Safety.
Enjoy it on Safety FM Mini
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Anton Guinea. Anton Guinea is a motivational speaker and a survivor of a tragic accident that changed the outcome of his whole life.
Hear this inspirational story that will change the way you look at safety.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Dr. David Perrodin. During the conversation David discusses his career, how he got into safety, his books and his podcast.
Enjoy it today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay changes things up and takes you on a journey of something else!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with international Safety Superstar Rachael Walla from Ally Safety. During the conversation, Rachael talks about how her career started, how it’s not glamour. She also discusses some misconceptions about her and how she is not afraid to get her hands dirty.
Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show!
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay talks about ISO 45003 and if you and your company needs it.
Hear it all today on Safety FM Mini
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Patrick Karol. During the conversation, Patrick discusses the one event that got him involved in safety and how it changed his life forever.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Tricia Kagerer. She is a book author, a pioneer in the field, and the first female recipient of the CSP Award of Excellence presented by the BCSP. During the conversation, Tricia discusses her career, how she got to where she is now, and how The B Words' concept came about.
Enjoy it today on The Jay Allen Show.
Safety FM would like to thank Air Med Care for being the signature sponsor of this episode!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks Dr. Charles Casto. Dr. Casto is the President of Casto Group Consulting. During the discussion, they discuss crisis management and a whole a lot more.
Our feature sponsor on today's episode is Air Med Care Network.
Hear it all on The Jay Allen Show!
Today on Safety FM Mini, we talk about what is going on in the multiverses of Safety FM. We discuss Radio Big, Around The Safety Pod, and the upcoming HOP 101 class.
Hear it all today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, it is the return of Rob Fisher. During the episode, Rob and Jay discuss the year that was 2020 and how AERO could be used during these trying times. Enjoy it on The Jay Allen Show.
Our feature sponsor on today's episode is Air Med Care Network.
Happy New Year, and now let's set some goals for the new year on today's Safety FM mini. Jay will discuss a challenge he has put forward for himself for 2021.
Hear it all today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speak with Brent Charlton. Brent discusses what he has enjoyed and not enjoyed during his 25 years plus career and what he would like to see change. Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show, exclusively on Safety FM.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we sit back, listen to some music, and hear our show hosts' messages.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay talks about how much safety has changed over the last few months and how it wasn't the way we expected.
Enjoy it all today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Joshua and Kayla Caudill. They are the owners of Safety Leadership Innovators (SLI). During the interview, they discuss the difficulty of being married to safety and how they made it all work after years of struggling.
We also discuss their new show "Married To Safety," coming to the Safety FM Network. Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show!
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss how to separate work issues from personal issues. We also discuss our lifetime membership contest that we have going on at SafetyFM.com
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Willaim Sampson from WK Speakers. During the conversation, they discuss the world of safety and how the DISC profile can be a benefit to you, your workplace, and your family life.
Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show on Safety FM.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay finally talks about what he and the hosts of Safety FM have been cooking up in the Safety FM Lab.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we talk about the holiday season and the importance of mental health during this time.
Today on The Jay Allen Show we speak with Kevin Waldal. Kevin is a human & organizational performance change agent.
Enjoy this episode of The Jay Allen Show.
During this episode of Safety FM Mini, our host is nowhere to be found, so Olivia Allen steps in and takes the lead on this special episode discussing why it's important to be kind during Covid 19.
Enjoy this episode today of Safety FM Mini, featuring Olivia Allen
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we discuss the Mandela Effect. What is the Mandela Effect? Find out more on The Jay Allen Show. We might make you think about some things differently.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss that painful topic of time management. Some people are great at it, and some people are terrible at it. But we take a deeper dive into something you might not have considered using time management.
Enjoy it all today on Safety FM Mini!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with David Jaenike from Safety Knights. Jay and David discuss David's career and how he came up with Safety Knights.
David spent about 9 months in his health and safety role before launching Safety Knights, a platform designed to help grow the careers of health and safety professionals.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, it's just Jay and you talking about the difficult conversation of boundaries. Sit back and hear the doctor talk here, somewhere in between a mini and a full episode on today's Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Dr. Jay Allen talks about depression. The conversation that some are ashamed to have. Listen to Jay talk about about this difficult topic on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we re-air a recent episode of The Pre-Accident Investigation. On this episode, Bob Edwards, Brent Sutton, Todd Conklin, and Jay Allen discuss paying it forward.
You are not going to want to miss this episode and please help us pay it forward!
Today on Safety FM Mini, Billy Joey takes over and asks for a favor. Enjoy it all today on Safety FM Mini
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Lucas Skrobot. Lucas is the host of The Lucas Skrobot Show, an author and strategist - helping change-making brands activate their tribe.
In this in-depth conversation, Lucas discusses what caused him to become a podcaster, what it means to be third cultured, and things that have caused controversy on his show.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay Allen talks about how he has failed. Hear it all today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Richard Nichols from SG World and Joshua Caudill from Safety Leadership Innovators.
During the conversation, they talk about leadership, how the pandemic has changed things and what books had the largest impacts on them.
This recording to place directly after ACFS's Safety Day 2020, that took place at the backlot of Universal Studios in Orlando.
Enjoy it today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay Allen ask that one question that can change a lot of things.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we speak with Emily Elrod. Emily is the President of Workzbe and the host of Unapologetically Bold.
We talk about her career, how Emily got started, and how see's things going in the future.
Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show
Today on Safety FM Mini, we talk about the black line, blue line and what it would do if it had more colors.
Take a look at the resource we reference during the episode.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we continue to take the show different directions. Enjoy this episode of The Jay Allen Show (radio edition) but on a podcast today.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay Allen asks the all-important question...How are you doing?
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we discuss some changes coming to the station, and we also take listeners' questions.
Enjoy it all on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Michael Zalle. Michael is the founder and CEO of Yellow Bird. Find out how Yellow Bird is transforming the EHS industry and how it all got started on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini - we discuss all the changes to the station and what all has been added.
Hear it all today on Safety FM Mini
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we speak with Dr. Meghan Braun. Dr. Megan is the owner of Body Mechanics Physical Therapy, a cash-based Physical Therapy clinic, and Co-Founder/Director of The Lax Box: Jacksonville’s premier indoor/outdoor lacrosse training and sports performance facility. Former NCAA Div III basketball and lacrosse athlete, current international lacrosse athlete, and medical staff for UWG. Works with athletes across all ages and athletic careers to enhance performance and reduce injury while maintaining proper movement awareness. Author of The journal series: Restore. Develop. Strengthen., YouTube vodcast host of Chalk Talk with The Doc and The Champion's Spotlight. Speaker and coach.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we speak with Dr. Love. Dr. Love is also known as Leonard “Al” Jones is the Air Force Risk Management Program Manager, Air Force Safety Center, Kirtland Air Force Base, N.M. He is charged with designing, managing, and providing senior advice and counsel regarding USAF Risk Management (RM) and associated operational and occupational mishap prevention that apply to all missions, activities, and personnel within the Air Force.
In addition,Dr. Love chairs the USAF RM Working Group, and conducts RM process staff assistance visits at the MAJCOM level ensuring compliance, standardization, and functional application of RM processes as related to AF RM policy and guidance. He also ensures inputs are provided to Air Education and Training Command (AETC), Air University (AU), and the United States Air Force Academy (USAFA) for RM related course development, integration, and sustainment.
Enjoy the conversations from the doctors on the Jay Allen Show,
See Dr. Love videos here.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we speak with Brent Sutton, Glynis McCarthy, & Brent Robinson authors of The Practice of Learning Teams. We take a deep dive about the book, where you can enter the contest for the giveaways, and we talk about the Learning Team Community of Practice
Today on The Jay Allen Show, (we know it's not a Safety FM Mini) Jay has a conversation with Linda Martin, Ph.D
During their conversation Jay and Linda talk about the changes in the safety world, Linda's struggles and how she is a no holding back kind of person. She also talks about the Soteria Society, and how this will change the game of safety.
Enjoy this episode on The Jay Allen Show
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Laura DiBenedetto.
Laura is a TEDx Speaker, #1 Bestselling author of The Six Habits and Life Mastery Coach, Laura teaches how to create the life of our dreams without sacrificing what we love. As Founder and CEO of Vision Advertising, a company that she built aged 19, she has helped hundreds of entrepreneurs build and grow profitable enterprises entirely on their terms.
Laura’s story begins with bullying, abuse, bankruptcy, and burn out. She overcame everything, building a successful business at age 19 and went on to retire at 37 with a 6-figure passive income. She has learned the formula to build a life of joy and now follows her passion to share this message with others.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay Allen, Ph.D., discusses the need of a SUPER Advocate. Hear it all today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Candice Horbacz. Candice Horbacz is a podcast host of Chatting with Candice, Twitch Partner, and has her BA in Psychology. She is interested in self-improvement, psychology, relationships, and spirituality.
During the conversation, Candice and Jay discuss high-risk work, relationships, sexuality, and jealousy. Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
CandiceHorbacz #JayAllen #Sexuality #SafetyPodcast #SafetyEducation #SafetyRadio #RealSafetyTalk #SafetyFM #BITW #KOASM
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay Allen, Ph.D, talks about five books that he thinks you should read.
Hear about it all today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay Allen speaks with Jason Hanson. Jason R. Hanson is a former CIA Officer and the New York Times bestselling author of Spy Secrets That Can Save Your Life. Jason is a frequent media guest and has appeared on The Today Show, Dateline, Rachael Ray, Fox & Friends, Shark Tank, and more. Jason runs his Spy Escape & Evasion training school out of Cedar City, UT.
Jason discusses practical applications that you can use for everyday life.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show
Today on Safety FM Mini, we have made it to our 100th episode. Jay Allen, Ph.D, takes a deep dive in talking what to do if people don't like X.
Hear it all today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we speak with Andrea Baker. If you are not familiar with Andrea Baker, Andrea is a founding member of the HOP HUB Consortium. She is also a world-renown teacher of HOP.
During our conversation, Andrea discusses how HOP interactions have changed since the beginning of the pandemic and how she enjoys being a new mother to her daughter.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
Safety #SafetyFM #HOP #BITW #SafetyPodcast #SafetyEducation #KOASM
Today our in house doctor issues a challenge to the listeners.
Are you willing to accept the challenge?
Find-out about the challenge on Safety FM Mini.
Interested in our HOP 101 Class? Go to SafetyFM.IO
SafetyFM #Safety #SafetyRadio #SafetyPodcast #RealSafetyTalk #SafetyChallenge
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we speak with Sidney Dekker.
Sidney Dekker is Professor and Director of the Safety Science Innovation Lab at Griffith University in Brisbane, Australia, and Professor at the Faculty of Aerospace Engineering at Delft University in the Netherlands. Sidney has lived and worked in seven countries across four continents and won worldwide acclaim for his groundbreaking work in human factors and safety.
Enjoy our limited commercial episode today, with Sidney Dekker on The Jay Allen Show
If you are interested in our HOP 101 Virtual Class go to SafetyFM.IO
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss the 5th Principle of HOP. We also discuss who is next week guest on the podcast.
If you are interested in going to our HOP 101 class go to SafetyFM.IO If you are interested in going to the class for free go to our link here
Enjoy it all on Safety FM Mini
Today on The Jay Allen Show, our host Jay Allen, Ph.D speaks with Lisa Brookes and Jim Frederick. During their conversation they discuss the rescheduled 2020 HOP Summit.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show!
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay Allen talks about the 4th Principle of Human Organizational Performance.
Enjoy it today on Safety FM Mini
Today on The Jay Allen Show, our host Jay Allen, Ph.D, speaks with Blair Boyd host of The Safer Than Average Podcast.
Blair and Jay take some deep dives into Blair career and Jay even goes as far to waiting to know how Blair decided to start a podcast.
Enjoy it today on The Jay Allen Show!
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay talks about HOP Principle Number 3 and its importance.
We also discuss our virtual event that is coming up on July 29th, 2020. The event is titled HOP 101. We also discuss on how you can earn money from the event if you so desire.
Enjoy it all today on Safety FM Mini
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Kellsie Moore. Kellsie Moore is an Actress and Video Presence Coach for purpose-driven entrepreneurs; helping you look, sound, and FEEL great on-camera.
During their conversation, Kellsie discusses the importance of being camera ready and the mental model that you need to have.
Visit Kellsie's website here
We at Safety FM will be conducting a HOP 101 virtual session. If you are interested in attending click on this link. We will also discuss a revenue share opportunity for you.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss HOP Principle Two. It's time to go back to basics.
Enjoys episode of Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Riggs Eckelberry. Riggs is the CEO of OrginClear.
During their conversation Riggs discusses issues with our current drinking water and what potential resolutions there might be to fix the issue.
If Riggs Eckelberry name sounds familiar to you, it's because he has been featured in The LA Times, Bloomberg Business, Forbes, and Environmental Leaders to name a few.
Enjoy this in-depth interview today on The Jay Allen Show
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss HOP Principle One. It's time to go back to basics.
Enjoys episode of Safety FM Mini.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with The Original Bearded Safety Guy - Matthew Herron. During the interview Matt discusses how he became the chapter President for the ASSP and how he is focusing on college students that get into the safety industry.
Enjoy it today on The Jay Allen Show!
On this emotional and heartfelt episode of Safety FM Mini, we will discuss what occurred at Pulse Night Club 4 years ago.
We want never to forget the victims of that tragic event:
During this challenging time, we offer heartfelt condolences to the families of the 49 victims who lost their lives during the Pulse tragedy. To the families and friends of the victims, Safety FM and Orlando is with you and will continue to be with you as you deal with this unimaginable tragedy.
Stanley Almodovar III, 23 years old
Amanda L. Alvear, 25 years old
Oscar A. Aracena Montero, 26 years old
Rodolfo Ayala Ayala, 33 years old
Antonio Davon Brown, 29 years old
Darryl Roman Burt II, 29 years old
Angel Candelario-Padro, 28 years old
Juan Chavez Martinez, 25 years old
Luis Daniel Conde, 39 years old
Cory James Connell, 21 years old
Tevin Eugene Crosby, 25 years old
Deonka Deidra Drayton, 32 years old
Simón Adrian Carrillo Fernández, 31 years old
Leroy Valentin Fernandez, 25 years old
Mercedez Marisol Flores, 26 years old
Peter Ommy Gonzalez Cruz, 22 years old
Juan Ramon Guerrero, 22 years old
Paul Terrell Henry, 41 years old
Frank Hernandez, 27 years old
Miguel Angel Honorato, 30 years old
Javier Jorge Reyes, 40 years old
Jason Benjamin Josaphat, 19 years old
Eddie Jamoldroy Justice, 30 years old
Anthony Luis Laureano Disla, 25 years old
Christopher Andrew Leinonen, 32 years old
Alejandro Barrios Martinez, 21 years old
Brenda Marquez McCool, 49 years old
Gilberto R. Silva Menendez, 25 years old
Kimberly Jean Morris, 37 years old
Akyra Monet Murray, 18 years old
Luis Omar Ocasio Capo, 20 years old
Geraldo A. Ortiz Jimenez, 25 years old
Eric Ivan Ortiz-Rivera, 36 years old
Joel Rayon Paniagua, 32 years old
Jean Carlos Mendez Perez, 35 years old
Enrique L. Rios, Jr., 25 years old
Jean Carlos Nieves Rodríguez, 27 years old
Xavier Emmanuel Serrano-Rosado, 35 years old
Christopher Joseph Sanfeliz, 24 years old
Yilmary Rodríguez Solivan, 24 years old
Edward Sotomayor Jr., 34 years old
Shane Evan Tomlinson, 33 years old
Martin Benitez Torres, 33 years old
Jonathan A. Camuy Vega, 24 years old
Juan Pablo Rivera Velázquez, 37 years old
Luis Sergio Vielma, 22 years old
Franky Jimmy DeJesus Velázquez, 50 years old
Luis Daniel Wilson-Leon, 37 years old
Jerald Arthur Wright, 31 years old
Please help the victims of this tragic event by donating - One Pulse Foundation
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we speak with National Safety Council Rising Star Award Winning recipient Joseph Kauffman. Joseph and Jay discuss the world of safety, how Joseph got into the world of safety. They also discuss what the newer generation safety professional might need to focus on to get to the C Suite.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
Want the unedited early version of the show, join us on Patreon.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay Allen discusses the basic of Human & Organizational Performance using the lens of Safety Differently.
Hear about it today on Safety FM Mini!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we speak with Allan James Moore. Allan is an inspirational and experiential keynote speaker. During the conversation, Allan and Jay discuss the pain for pain and what happens inside of our workplaces because of it. Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show
Today on Safety FM mini, Jay Allen, Ph.D, discusses a post about cyberbullying that he put on social media over the weekend.
Take a listen to one of our in house doctors had to say.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we talk about what has happened over the last two years. We also dive into some of the interviews that have occurred over the years.
Take a listen to this special thank you episode to our Safety FMer!
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss pain for pain and what it could cost you.
Enjoy it today on Safety FM Mini
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we have last moment cancellation so we put together our questions and music episode.
If you are interested in Pedro, Abby, Jason Maldonado, Steve Sisson, Todd, and The Hop Hub, you might want to stick around for this episode.
Today on Safety FM Mini, our host Jay Allen, talks about the importance of the medium that we use to communicate.
Find out more on todays episode.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay Allen speaks with Caleb Welch. Caleb, talks about his career, how he got involved in safety, how he fell in love with Avatar and what his podcast Safety Rocks is all about.
Enjoy it all on The Jay Allen Show.
Special thank you to all of our Patreon supporters.
Today on Safety Mini/The Jay Allen Show, we decide to take a different approach! Enjoy this special music edition of Jay Allen's dream, Radio Big!
Enjoy it today on Safety FM mini...no Safety Dance will be played during this episode.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, it's the return of Sheldon Primus from The Safety Consultant Podcast.
Today on the show Sheldon talks about becoming a safety consultant during Covid 19 and how to start a business.
Also, Jay address the challenge presented to the ASSP, which still has not responded.
Enjoy it all today on the Jay Allen Show
Today on Safety FM Mini, we talk about all the changes coming to the radio station.
Enjoy this episode!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Kevin Lombardo, CEO of Dorn. During the conversation they discuss how Dorn helps organizations, what impacts Covid - 19 has had on the industry and how Kevin got started in safety
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show!
Consider joining us on Patreon.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks again with Bill Stettiner. A lot of people had questions and wanted a follow up.
We got Uncle Bill on as soon as we could.
Enjoy it today, on The Jay Allen Show.
Want the unedited version of this podcast, go to Patreon.com/SafetyFM
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Bill Stettiner. During the interview, they discuss Bill's career and his thoughts about the ASSP and the BCSP.
Our host presents a challenge to the CEO and the President of the ASSP. Find out more on the Jay Allen Show!
Consider joining us on Patreon!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay interviews James MacPherson from Rebranding Safety Podcast. During the show they talk about how James got involved in safety and what impacts Covid - 19 is having on him and his show.
Enjoy it all on The Jay Allen Show.
Please consider joining us on Patreon
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Ronald Farris. Ronald is a human organization practitioner, that came up under the guidance of Shane Bush.
Take a listen to what Ron had to say during this episode. If you want to hear it all, unedited and uncut, consider joining us on Patreon.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we are going to do something we have never done before.
Take a listen and let me know what you think.
Today on the Jay Allen Show, Jay Allen speaks with the one and only HOP Nerd, Samuel Goodman. On this episode Samuel discussed how things are going in his world and how he decided to jump in the podcast world and the world of streaming. Enjoy it all today, on Safety FM.
On this episode of the Mini, we talk about what we want to do to help, this is your opportunity to enter into our contest!
Join the Exclusive List for more details!
Today on this special episode, envision yourself at a campfire with Bob Edwards, Marc Yeston, and Todd Conklin.
This is where this episode starts, just imagine how much fun we would all have!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we speak with Drew Hinton. He speaks about what's going on in the world and how it's effecting his career. Drew also covers things that are currently not being discussed in the media.
Hear it all today on The Jay Allen Show!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with The Red Beard, Nathan Braymen from The Safety Justice League. Red speaks about his career, how the SJL formed. Why Jo Piña opted to leave the group at the beginning, and why LIGMA was so important to him during the recent Safety FM's Town Hall.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss where you can get information about the CoronaVirus. We also cover information about the Safety FM Virtual Town Hall taking place at 1 PM (EST) time today March 20th.Enjoy it all today on Safety FM Mini.
This episode was originally a recording of The Safety FM Roadshow, we have decided to make it a combo episode. We are combining CoronaVirus info with the show.
Please Stay Safe!
Today on Safety FM Mini - we talk about the ongoing changes about the CoronaVirus and what leaders can do during this time. Rob Fisher joins us on Safety FM Mini for this critical conversation.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Stephen Scott. Stephen is a HOP leader when it comes to integration into the system. Stephen speaks about his career and his love for HOP and what he learned from Rob Fisher and Todd Conklin during his time at Alcoa.
Enjoy it on The Jay Allen Show
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss what is going on at Safety FM with radio streaming, video streaming, new shows, and etc.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Tamara Parris from the Women in Safety Podcast. Tamara talks about her career and what she thinks about some of her guests on the show. Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show,
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay Allen talks about what happened this week in ND and issues with mental health.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay talks with Jason A. Maldonado, from Relentless Safety, founding member of The Safety Justice League, and author of A Practical Guide To The Safety Profession. Listen to Jason's spin on how he wants to make safety fun! Enjoy it today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Demetra Johnson. She talks about her career, how it started, why Waco was the place for her, and how she began to become known as Safe Dee.
After the conversation with Demetra, Jay speaks with Josh from Alliance for Central Florida Safety. Josh talks about an event they have coming come called Safety Day 2020. Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with The Fishers about working together, separating family from work and the technology the Fishers created.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay talks about the impact Valentine's day can have on some. Enjoy it today on Safety FM Mini.
On this episode of The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Michael Fackler from Caliber Safety. Michael discusses his journey and how some academic issues encouraged him to start his own company.
Enjoy it all on the next episode of The Jay Allen Show on Safety FM.
On this episode of Safety FM Mini, Jay talks about personality tests and if they are important to your safety program. Enjoy this Mini with Dr. Jay Allen on Safety FM.
On this episode of The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Jefferey Lyth. They talk about Jeff's journey, what he is doing now and how did he become the sherpa, guide, and caretaker of SafetyDifferently.com
All this and more on this episode of The Jay Allen Show on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Dr. Jay Allen talks about the tragedy from earlier this week and how it impacted him.Today on Safety FM Mini!
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with world-renowned author, Judy Agnew, Ph.D. They talk about her career and how Judy landed her dream job working with Aubrey Daniels International.
Enjoy this episode of The Jay Allen Show on Safety FM.
https://www.aubreydaniels.com/judy-agnew-phd
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay has a very personal conversation about success and failures in his life and what he was able to learn.Enjoy it today on Safety FM.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Lori Frederic, The Movement Ninja. Lori discusses how her journey started, how she discovered occupational health and safety.
Enjoy it all here, on The Jay Allen Show!
For more information on Lori go to http://balancebio.com
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay talks about conferences and conventions and how he feels about them. Enjoy today's episode on Safety FM.Find out more about Safety FM at http://SafetyFM.com
On this episode, We finally reveal what all the cryptic messaging has been about as of late. Then we have a discussion with The Safety Justice League. The Safety Justice League goes into telling us how they formed, what they want to accomplish and how it all started for them.
Who is The Safety Justice League - Nathan Braymen, Jason A. Maldonado, Jason Lucas, Abby Ferri, and Jo Piña.
https://www.safetyjusticeleague.com/
Enjoy our 100th episode of Safety FM!
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay talks about his 7 goals for 2020 and what you should do to set some goals up as well.Enjoy it today on the Mini episode!
Today on Safety FM, Dr. Jay Allen speaks with Mikel Bowman. During the conversation, they discuss Mikel's career and a life in the ministry opened up into life in safety.
Enjoy it here on Safety FM!
On this episode, Jay talks about going back to the foundation of HOP.Listen to this mini-episode of the podcast to lay down the foundation.For more information go to SafetyFM.com
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay talks about mental health and how it can influence people during this time of the year. Jay also issues a challenge to all the listeners. Enjoy today's episode!
Today on this special holiday edition of Safety FM, enjoy some Holiday Music with some of your favorite hosts from Safety FM.
Today on the show, Dr. Jay Allen talks about his recent trip to Texas and a great place he went to called Cowboy Solution. Hear about it all today on Safety FM,
Today on Safety FM, Dr. Jay Allen speaks with Mike Allocco about his career and his viewpoints on safety. Jay describes how he found Mike.
Enjoy it today on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM, Dr. Jay Allen talks about the 5 Lessons in life that he learned from another doctor. Also, discussion about mental health and the great organization called To Write Love On Her Arms. Enjoy it all today on Safety FM Mini!
Today on Safety FM, Dr. Jay Allen speaks with Judy Disney. Judy is a Senior Consultant at Fisher Improvement Technologies (FIT). Judy discusses her journey on how it all started with Alcoa and how it led her to join FIT.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay talks about the amount of people in the safety space and what is the countdown all about.
Today on the Safety FM flagship show, we have Douglas Hill. He discusses his career, what he thought about HOP when he first heard about it and how he was able to bring HOP to the union environment. Enjoy it all today on the Safety FM flagship show with Dr. Jay Allen.
Today on Safety FM, Dr. Jay Allen has a conversation with Abby Ferri. Abby talks about her career, how she got involved in safety and what she wants to do next. Enjoy it all today on Safety FM!
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay talks about personality and what he thinks about it. Take a listen to this mini-episode of the show and let us know what you think. To learn more about personality tendencies go to:https://swiy.io/PDIDisclosure: Advance Error Reduction In Organizations (AERO) is a sponsor of Safety FM and one of the methods that Safety FM (flagship show) and Dr. Jay Allen believes in.
Today on Safety FM, our host Jay Allen speaks with Brent Sutton. Brent discusses his career, how he got involved in the field. His love for the work he does for Safety Associates, and the article he sent Jay that sparked the podcast.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Dr. Jay Allen talks about organizations using scare tactics to whip their safety people into shape. Please remember that not all organizations use this tactic. Enjoy the episode here today!
Today on Safety FM, Dr. Jay Allen interviews Blaine J. Hoffmann from The SafetyPro Podcast. During the interview, Blaine discusses his career, how he came up with The SafetyPro Podcast and what his next plans are for his future and his career. Enjoy this episode here today in long-form on Safety FM, the flagship show.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Jay Allen talks about the six guiding principles of Advanced Error Reduction in Organizations (AERO). Enjoy it today on Safety FM Mini.
Today on Safety FM, we have a conversation with Jason Lucas. Jason is known for his Social Media Safety Minute that you normally can see on LinkedIn. Enjoy today's interview with Jason Lucas on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM, Sheldon Primus returns to update what is going on with him and in safety consulting world.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Dr. Jay Allen as the question of does it bring value when you provide...
Today on Safety FM, Dr. Jay Allen interviews, Rosa Carillo. Rosa is the author of The Relationship Factor in Safety Leadership. During the conversation, she will discuss her career and how she came up with the concept of the book. Enjoy it today on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Dr. Jay Allen talks about fantasies and philosophies. Enjoy here today on Safety FM mini.
Mike Sadam takes over hosting duties and flips the script and interviews Dr Jay Allen for this episode of Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM Mini, Dr. Allen discusses the difference between discipline and accountability. Enjoy all today on a Mini format!
Today on Safety FM, Jay's friends come to the rescue! As Jay lost his voice while in Vegas, Todd Conklin takes over the helm of the interviewer and has a conversation with Marc Yeston, Ivan Pupulidy, and Jeff Lyth about what they thought about the workshop. This is just hours before they head to see Aerosmith.
Today on Safety FM, Dr. Jay Allen speaks to the Safety Training Ninja- Regina McMichael. Regina discusses how the Safety Training Ninja name came about and how one catastrophic event changed her whole life. Enjoy the episode on the Flagship Show on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we talk about E.D.I.T.H. and why she might be important to you.
Today on Safety FM, Dr. Jay Allen interviews Terry Gray. Terry is the founder of the Safety Man Movement. Learn how Terry came up with the concept and how it applies to his everyday career. Enjoy the episode on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM, we speak with Ray Fisher from Fisher Improvement Technologies. Ray talks about his career, how it is working with Rob Fisher and how he differentiates himself from Rob.
Enjoy it today on Safety FM!
Today on Safety FM, we have a special episode dedicated to World Suicide Prevention Day. This is a music edition of the show so please enjoy it and please find out more about World Suicide Prevention Day at the links below:
TWLOHA.com
IASP.INFO
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss the term Safety First and what does it mean to you.
Today on Safety FM, we discuss with Jo Piña. We discuss her career, how she got started in safety, and what sets her apart compared to others in the safety space. Enjoy the episode on Safety FM.
Tonight at the Safety FM Roadshow coming to you live from the Hyatt Regency on International Drive in Orlando, FL - a conversation with Dr. Todd Loushine and Dr. Jay Allen. Enjoy this live interview from the Safety FM Roadshow.
Today on Safety FM, Dr. Jay Allen has a discussion with Ehren Hill on how he got started in safety and what caused him to leave his career that was not safety-related to join Fisher Improvement Technology.
Join the Safety FM podcast/broadcast network at startdreambusiness.com
Today on Safety FM Mini- we discuss undue influence and how it could be impacting your organization.
Today on Safety FM, You and I discuss the world of podcasting and what is going on with mental health. We also speak briefly about the occurrences in El Paso and Dayton; then we tie it all back together in our world of safety!
Thank you for being a listener! We couldn't make it without you.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we talk about Safety Pros struggling with mental health. We discuss what you can do to receive help.
Today on Safety FM, this interview initially started as a conversation between Todd Conklin, and Jay Allen, until there was a knock on the door. At that point, we start a conversation, and she has a lot to share with us. Enjoy the episode on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we talk about the Suicide Prevention Hotline. We also take the opputunity to listen to a song titled 800-273-8255
Today on Safety FM, we have a discussion with Shane Bush about the past, present, and future of HPI. Stay tuned to this interview with the very charismatic Shane Bush.
Go to BushCoHPI.com for more information on Shane Bush.
Today on Safety FM mini, we discuss elevator pitch. Do you have one? And what their importance are.
Today on Safety FM, we speak with David Metcalf from UCF and Glenn Cook from Lake Nona Transportation about the future technology of autonomous vehicles.
Today on Safety FM, we discuss would you risk your paycheck for a disagreement in safety philiosphy?
Today on Safety FM, we have a conversation with Paul Satchfield from SunTrax. Suntrax is an autonomous vehicle research facility that is changing the landscape of how research is performed on autonomous vehicles. Enjoy the interview with Paul and for more information about SunTrax go to http://SunTraXFL.com
Today on Safety FM mini, we have a brief discucssion about the different approaches to safety.
Today on Safety FM, we continue the conversation with Todd Conklin about his career and what happened between one book to another book. Enjoy it today on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM mini, we have a brief discussion about a case study that is being conducted by a friend of the show Martha Acosta. Please click on the link for more information.https://martica.com/research
Today on Safety FM, we have a conversation with Dr. Todd Conklin. We talk about his career, his books, his mental state during the time and how he came up with The Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast. Todd is the only person to date that has been interviewed twice for the show.
Today on Safety FM mini, we have a quick discussion on what's going on and we talk about the day after July 4th.
Today on Safety FM, we continue our conversation with Todd Conklin, Earl Carnes, Lamar Palmer, and Shane Bush. This episode has some twist and turns before it's all over we will speak with Andrea Baker. Enjoy this episode with a twist on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we talk about capacity, the mini-series, our big giveaway, and the Safety FM shirts.
Today on Safety FM, we talk about a new concept on safety that a lot of people have been asking for, and we are moving to.
Today on Safety FM, we start our mini-series about Human and Organizational Performance. It was great being able to speak with some of the founding fathers of this technology. Shane Bush, Earl Carnes, LaMar Palmer were very gracious with their time to allows us to have these conversations with them. Enjoy episode one on Safety FM.
On this emotional and heartfelt episode of Safety FM, we will discuss what occurred at Pulse Night Club 3 years ago. We want never to forget the victims of that tragic event:During this challenging time, we offer heartfelt condolences to the families of the 49 victims who lost their lives during the Pulse tragedy. To the families and friends of the victims, Safety FM and Orlando is with you and will continue to be with you as you deal with this unimaginable tragedy.Stanley Almodovar III, 23 years oldAmanda L. Alvear, 25 years oldOscar A. Aracena Montero, 26 years oldRodolfo Ayala Ayala, 33 years oldAntonio Davon Brown, 29 years oldDarryl Roman Burt II, 29 years oldAngel Candelario-Padro, 28 years oldJuan Chavez Martinez, 25 years oldLuis Daniel Conde, 39 years oldCory James Connell, 21 years oldTevin Eugene Crosby, 25 years oldDeonka Deidra Drayton, 32 years oldSimón Adrian Carrillo Fernández, 31 years oldLeroy Valentin Fernandez, 25 years oldMercedez Marisol Flores, 26 years oldPeter Ommy Gonzalez Cruz, 22 years oldJuan Ramon Guerrero, 22 years oldPaul Terrell Henry, 41 years oldFrank Hernandez, 27 years oldMiguel Angel Honorato, 30 years oldJavier Jorge Reyes, 40 years oldJason Benjamin Josaphat, 19 years oldEddie Jamoldroy Justice, 30 years oldAnthony Luis Laureano Disla, 25 years oldChristopher Andrew Leinonen, 32 years oldAlejandro Barrios Martinez, 21 years oldBrenda Marquez McCool, 49 years oldGilberto R. Silva Menendez, 25 years oldKimberly Jean Morris, 37 years oldAkyra Monet Murray, 18 years oldLuis Omar Ocasio Capo, 20 years oldGeraldo A. Ortiz Jimenez, 25 years oldEric Ivan Ortiz-Rivera, 36 years oldJoel Rayon Paniagua, 32 years oldJean Carlos Mendez Perez, 35 years oldEnrique L. Rios, Jr., 25 years oldJean Carlos Nieves Rodríguez, 27 years oldXavier Emmanuel Serrano-Rosado, 35 years oldChristopher Joseph Sanfeliz, 24 years oldYilmary Rodríguez Solivan, 24 years oldEdward Sotomayor Jr., 34 years oldShane Evan Tomlinson, 33 years oldMartin Benitez Torres, 33 years oldJonathan A. Camuy Vega, 24 years oldJuan Pablo Rivera Velázquez, 37 years oldLuis Sergio Vielma, 22 years oldFranky Jimmy DeJesus Velázquez, 50 years oldLuis Daniel Wilson-Leon, 37 years oldJerald Arthur Wright, 31 years oldPlease help the victims of this tragic event by donating - To Write Love On Her Arms at https://twloha.com
Today on Safety FM, we speak with T.A. Laser. T.A. Laser is the CEO of T.A. Laser Consulting, LLC, and the author of the Organization Culture Killers, Deadly Practices series, Laser shares valuable insights from over 25 years of operations.
Enjoy the interview on Safety FM.
See you at The Road Show!
Today on Safety FM mini- let's discuss why you can't be a prophet in your own land.See ya at The Road Show
Today on the show, we interview Eldeen Pozniak. Eldeen is known around the world for being a safety consultant and a safety speaker. She has extensive knowledge, application and success in safety management system measurement and strategic planning of both the Structural and Cultural Components.
Enjoy the interview on Safety FM
Special Thank You to Mary Ann from TopSafetySpeakers.com for putting us in contact with Eldeen.
Today on Safety FM, Jay talks about his secret project and what he has been working on for the last few months behind the scenes.
Today we speak with Jon Hager and Christian James from Industrial Biodynamics. They are going to talk about a Slip Simulator that was developed by Virginia Tech and how their company acquired it to assist organizations.
On today's Safety FM mini, we take aninspirationaln quote from the one and only Joe Rogan. Take a listen here on Safety FM mini.
Today on Safety FM we speak with Brent Moore. Brent is an experienced manager and fundraiser with more than 16 years of work in both county government and community-based relationships. He has been a liaison with local municipalities and service organizations along with event management, public relations, and administrative work and significant projects.
Today on Safety FM, we have a discussion with K. Scott. K. Scott graduated from Columbia University in 1993. His career covered international technology sales and domestic BPO management before accepting a spiritual project in 2012- "Do something to spread peace." This is where the journey starts in our conversation.
Today on Safety FM, we speak with Sylvia Marusyk. Sylvia has been working in the area of injury prevention and health promotion for the past two decades. Her goals are to assist companies and individuals in achieving more excellent personal and organizational health and safety and to have fun doing it!
Special Thank you to Mary Ann from http://topsafetyspeakers.com for providing today's guest.
Today on Safety FM mini, we talk about the new consortium that was founded by Andrea Baker, Marc Yeston, Bob Edwards, and Todd Conklin.
On today's episode of Safety FM, we flip the script! Dr. Jay Allen is interviewed by Jill James from the Accidental Safety Pro. Enjoy it here on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM, Jay speaks with Christian Harris from Slip Safety Services. Christian talks about helping clients to derive value from improved floor care management: saving money by reducing risk and preventing slip accidents and improving aesthetic standards. Enjoy it here on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM, Jay interviews one for the founding father of Human & Organizational Performance. Tony covers his career and how the development of H&OP occurred. Enjoy the interview today on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM mini, we talk about goals. Do you have goals? Let's dive a little deeper on this subject.
On today's episode of Safety FM, we discuss with Angie Bruhn. Angie is an executive coach, organization leadership consultant and motivational speaker. Listen about Angie's journey, here on Safety FM.
On today's min episode we discuss being The Voice of The Voiceless, here on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM, we have the pleasure of speaking with Sheldon Primus. Sheldon Primus is a man of many hats. He runs a non-profit organization, is a podcast host, has his own safety consulting company and teaches people how to become a consultant. This is not even the tip of the iceberg. Enjoy the interview with the legendary man, here on Safety FM.
The Black Parade is now occurring inside of your organization because you just got called into the Safety Managers office. Isn't funny how you can imagine the scenario in your head. Let's talk about changing that here, on Safety FM.
On today's episode of Safety FM, we discuss the big reveal and what we have been working on over the last few weeks.
https://www.audible.com/safetyfm
Today we discuss what occured in New Zealand. Please help our friends and family in New Zealand at the links below:https://givealittle.co.nz/cause/christchurch-shooting-victims-fundhttps://www.cnn.com/2019/03/15/us/iyw-help-new-zealand-terror-attack-victims-trnd/index.html
Today on Safety FM Mini, We have the transition story. How do organization transition employees from one position to another.
On today's episode, we talk about Saved By The Bell...Yes, that Saved By The Bell. We take a look at how this show could impact your safety program in your organization. Enjoy it here on Safety FM.
Today on the mini, we discuss the reason why people quit their job. It might not be for the reason you believe. Let's discuss on Safety FM mini 31.
On Today's episode of Safety FM, we speak with Mike Sedam. Mike has taken his education in counter-terrorism and public administration to help people
understand what drives their behavior and the behavior of others. Mike’s weekly podcast, The
Crucial Talks Podcast, provides valuable information on human behavior and has been
downloaded thousands of times by people across the world including in the U.S., Canada,
Australia, New Zealand, and China. Mike is a commander in a large law enforcement agency. In
addition, Mike is also a Senior Advisor for Government Integration, serves as an Accreditation
Commissioner, leads a multi-agency coordination group, and co-chaired a Federal Aviation
Administration rule-making committee. Mike not only has experience as a leader, he has
experience as a pilot, safety officer, and fleetwide maintenance coordinator.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss being marginalized inside of an organization based on you being a safety professional. Does this truly happen?
Today on Safety FM, we speak with Katie Romo. She is starting her journey (4 years in, not counting schooling). Katie has an interesting approach when it comes to safety and could be the voice for the young safety professionals out there. Enjoy our conversation with Katie, on Safety FM.
Today on the mini, we talk about medical marijuana and it's impact inside organizations.
Today on Safety FM, we speak with Doug Storer. With over the last 35 years, Mr. Storer invented a patented safety product that has helped keep workers safe around the World, founded a company that appeared on ABC’s Shark Tank, driven sales programs for multi-billion dollar, Fortune 500 companies and served as an elected official for more than a decade.
Have you heard the terminology Stcky before. If you haven't lets have a discussion about it on Safety FM mini 28. I will keep it PG :)
On today's episode we have a BIG Announcement! We are excited about our announcement and once you are done listening, please come and visit Safety FM.com
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss if safety conferences are important and if they bring value.
Today we have a conversation with Rob Fisher, CEO and Director of Operations for Fisher Improvement Technologies. Rob talks about his involvement with HOP and how his life changed because of it.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss safety gadgets and if they are useful. Enjoy this bite size version of Safety FM.
On today's episode of Safety FM, we hear a story with my anonymous guest. Her story consists of how a stalker led her to have mental health issues. Listen to this very detailed story on Safety FM.
On this episode of the mini, we discuss how micromanagement can impact your workplace safety.
Today on Safety FM, we speak with Dr. Ivan Pupulidy. Dr. Pupulidy discusses how he got involved in safety, where he sees safety going. He also talks about studying under Sidney Dekker. Listen to it here today only on Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM, we have a conversation with Steve Sisson. Steve is the host of Safety Talks on Safety FM. Enjoy the interview as he discusses the plan with his show and where he sees the future of Safety FM.
Today on Safety FM, we have a conversations about Safety FM mini 24. There appears to be some misunderstanding that we need to address.
On today episode of Safety FM, we have a discussion with Ron Gantt. He discusses how he got involved in safety and where he see the profession going.
On today's episode of Safety FM, we have a conversation with Dr. Todd Loushine. He speaks about his career in safety and where he sees the industry going and what impact he has on his students' lives.
Today on Safety FM Mini, we have a conversationf about planning for your New Years festivities.
On todays episode of Safety FM, we discuss the year of 2018 and we listen to a song by Inno Combs.
Today on Safety FM Mini, We discuss what do you do if things don't go your way with your safety initiatives inside your organization.
Our conversation today is with Marc Yeston. He is a consultant, instructor, and trainer that for Safety 2 or Human Organizational Performance. Previously he was a Park Ranger and a Chief Ranger to mention a few positions. He has real world life or death experience implementing HOP, and he speaks about it today on Safety FM.
Today on the mini, we discuss pattern recognition because you may have missed something the first time. Enjoy it here, on Safety FM!
Today on Safety FM, we discuss with Charles Major. Charles is the President of Human Performance Root Cause & Trending. He explains how he discovered HOP and how it has shaped his current safety view.
Thank you to Audible for sponsoring this episode.
https://audible.com/safetyfm
Today on Safety FM Mini, we discuss pattern recognition. Does it occur in your safety program?
Hoy en Safety FM, discutimos los 5 principes de HOP. Today on Safety FM we discuss the 5 principles of HOP in Spanish!
Today on Safety FM, we discuss with Cary Usrey about his career in safety. He speaks about his journey, how he got started and when he is currently on his path.
Today on Safety FM, we speak with Andrea Baker, also known as The Hop Mentor. Andrea talks about her journey and tells us about her Matrix approach to Human and Organizational Performance.
Today on Safety FM, we have a discussion with James Frederick about safety and how it applies within the union environment. James works for the United Steel Workers union and gives us his point of view on how it all works.
Today on Safety FM, we discuss with Mark Gardner, CEO of Avatar Managment Services. Mark tells us his journey on how he decided not to make Safety training boring.
Today on Safety FM, we speak with Bob Edwards - The HOP Coach. Bob talks about how his journey with HOP started and how learning teams can change your environment.
Today on Safety FM, we talk to Wilson Bateman, author of 7 Safety Habits. His approach to safety is from the perspective of self-help.
Today on Safety FM, we speak with Denny Kolsch, LMHC. Denny talks to us about To Write Love On Her Arms, an organization that helps people who are struggling with depression, suicidal thought, grief, and eating disorders. He also talks about the Peace Club. We tie it all back to people safety and organizational safety.
On today's episode, we talk with Shelley Forney. Shelley is an inspirational speaker who speaks about safety and distracted driving. Shelley discusses Erica's Story with us.
Today on Safety FM Mini we talk about the First Principle. We also we talk about our special announcement that is coming.
On today's episode, we discuss upcoming events and a podcast that I just recently listened to, and you should listen to it also.
On today's show, we have an interview with Paul Comfort, host of Transit Unplugged podcast. Paul discusses his career, how he started the podcast and Comfort's 7 Steps to Safety.
How do you spread your safety messages within your organization? Let's talk about some different methods available.
Today on Safety FM, we have the opportunity to speak with Kevin Rindal. Kevin Rindal is the President of Vimocity. Vimocity takes a different approach to workplace injuries.
Is Safety treated like a joke within your organization? If the answer is yes, what are you going to do to change it?
On today's episode, we discuss with Dave Sowers from Knowledge Vine. Dave explains how he got involved with safety and how Human & Organizational Performance is his preferred method of safety.
Today is the end of suicide prevention week. Just because its the end of the week, it's not the end of the discussion.
On today's episode, we discuss World Suicide Prevention Day, which is today. What to do if are having suicidal thoughts, suffering from depression or know someone who is. There are a lot of websites that discuss this matter.
Today, We interview Jill James from The Accidental Safety Pro Podcast. Jill is the Chief Safety Officer for Vivid Learning Systems. She tells us about her journey in the safety industry.
Before today's podcast we moved our archive to a new hosting service. I am assuming all episodes moved but in case they didn't, here is some of what you missed.
Today, we interview William Fisher. William is a Safety Director within the transportation field. William will talk about his journey from being a vehicle operator to transitioning to operations that led him to safety.
Today, on Safety FM Mini, we as the question Where is your next incident or accident going to happen? Take a listen to this episode, as we answer this very odd question.
Today, we speak to Joe Balas from Human Factor Safety. Joe specializes in fatigue. Listen about a treat that you have in your organization that you might have not even known about.
Today, we take our first crack at a mini episode. What question do you ask during an investigation?
Today, We interview Dr. Todd Conklin. Dr. Conklin is the host of the Pre-Accident Investigation podcast. Todd Conklin spent 25 years at Los Alamos National Laboratory as a Senior Advisor for Organizational and Safety Culture. We discuss the origin story on how he got involved with the New View of Safety. You don't miss this one!
Today, we interview Steve Sisson. Steve is a Director of Safety, and a mentor to many people in the safety industry. We discuss concepts and how he sees the safety industry.
Today is Friday the 13th!!! We have a brief...I mean very brief...like super brief...conversation about safety. It's just you and I today on Safety FM.
Today, we speak with Susan Peters, Executive Director for UnBound. Mrs. Peters discusses the realities of human trafficking and how it's affecting our communities and the world. Listen to Mrs. Peters explains what UnBound is doing to help this urgent matter.
Today, we interview Dr. Tim D Ludwig, from Insights into your Safety Culture podcast. We discuss his career, his book Dysfunctional Practices that kill your Safety Culture (and what to do about it). And stay tuned towards the middle of the podcast for the big announcement.
Today, we interview James "Skipper' Kendrick, President of Kendrick Global Enterprises. We also get to hear; Blank Stares by Jay Allen. The song proceeds go towards the fight against Alzheimer's disease.
Today, we speak to one of the most actively caring people in the safety industry, Dr. E Scott Geller. His actively caring people movement and his consulting firm, Safety Performance Solutions are just two items that will be part of Dr. Geller's legacy. Don't miss this episode of Safety FM as Dr. Geller tells his story of safety.
FMCSA requires certain documents if you have vehicle operators. What kind of vehicle operators fall under the requirement?
We are still at the 13th annual FTA Drug and Alcohol National Conference. Today, we get to question the experts.
Today, we are at the 13th Annual FTA Drug and Alcohol National Conference. Today the discussion centers around drug test refusals.
Today, we talk about a company that has managed not to follow the FMCSA ruleset and what happened to them.