The Roys Report: Recent Episodes
Julie Roys
Show Transcript After a long legal battle, a 5-year-old girl abducted from Turkey is back home with her mother, thanks in large part to the tireless efforts of abuse survivor advocate Naghmeh Panahi. The child, Rachael, was abducted by her father, Naghmeh’s ex-husband Saeed Abedini — an Iranian pastor who made international headlines when he […]
Show Transcript https://youtu.be/7D_mStBw7aU Did Wheaton College President Phil Ryken lie when he claimed in a recent statement that he apologized to the congregation of his previous church for mishandling abuse? In this stunning podcast, an eyewitness says yes. And he explains what really happened, which is a far cry from the statement Wheaton College recently […]
Thirty-five former residents of Central Indiana Teen Challenge are suing the home for troubled teens, saying staff inflicted “bizarre, random and cruel”
Show Transcript Wheaton College President Phil Ryken, who’s under fire for covering up a sex scandal at the college, has reportedly protected a sex predator before. Documents exclusively obtained by Roys Report show that Ryken’s denomination officially censured him 10 years ago for withholding information about a music director who abused a 19-year-old man. During […]
Why did Bill Gothard avoid accountability for decades? Author Don Veinot explores the theology, abuse allegations, and legacy of Gothard's ministry.
Wheaton College claims to be for “Christ and His Kingdom.” But when confronted with the school’s three-decade, sex abuse cover-up and its devastating consequences, Wheaton’s board chairman has chosen to whitewash what the school did, instead of coming clean.
In this shocking interview, host Julie Roys speaks to Vince Manuele about his new book “Kiss And Tell,” and he reveals how lies, surveillance and narcissism rule the cult of Trinity Church and Driscoll’s family.
After suffering in silence, Hannah Dreher, the daughter of Wheaton College’s alleged predator Dennis Massaro, calls for accountability and urges people to sign a petition to see change.
A family friend is coming forward with explosive claims about the late Joni Lamb’s final wishes for Daystar Television Network. In an exclusive podcast, she alleges Joni told board member Tom Calender just weeks before her death to “give him back Daystar” if her estranged son, Jonathan Lamb, sought reconciliation.
In this eye-opening podcast, Fritz gives a behind-the-scenes look into how Wheaton, the so-called “Harvard of Christian schools,” really operates. Is this evangelical flagship college really living out its motto: “For Christ and His Kingdom”? Or are leaders seeking their own preservation and their own kingdom?
Daystar TV says it exists to proclaim the gospel but Kenyon and Katie Coleman, friends of Jonathan & Suzy say the network doesn't practice what it preaches.
The memorial for Daystar co-founder Joni Lamb was intended to honor her life and legacy. Instead, Jentezen Franklin used the platform for a passive-aggressive public rebuke of Jonathan and Suzy Lamb that many viewed as a form of spiritual abuse.
What happens when a Christian college protects its reputation instead of vulnerable people? In part two of this interview, Kathy Gallagher says Wheaton College had the chance to stop further harm — and didn’t.
The death of Daystar co-founder Joni Lamb has left many grieving—not only over the loss of a major figure in Christian broadcasting but also over the painful family fractures surrounding the ministry.
Wheaton College concealed the truth about former administrator Dennis Massaro after multiple students accused him of sexual abuse nearly 30 years ago. Massaro’s ex-wife, Kathy Gallagher, says the college’s silence deepened her family’s trauma and enabled further harm to her children.
The Newsboys, led by owner Wes Campbell, have filed a sweeping lawsuit against The Roys Report and others, alleging a conspiracy to damage their career after Michael Tait's misdeeds were exposed. Host Julie Roys is joined by attorney Christine Jones and journalist Jessica Morris to unpack the claims—and what comes next.
Guest Bios Show Transcript Three years ago, the 24/7 prayer movement was rocked by credible allegations that International House of Prayer Kansas City (IHOPKC) founder Mike Bickle had a pattern of sexually abusing women and underage girls. Now, Bickle is back! And his supporters are accusing those who exposed him of “weaponizing long past sin […]
Guest Bios Show Transcript Who leads the church? Not Jesus, according to discredited founding global pastor of Hillsong Church, Brian Houston. In his new YouTube series, “Who’s in charge of the church?” Houston warns pastors about giving the church board too much control. Despite the fact he has failed spectacularly and lost his global dynasty, […]
Should senior pastors expect unquestioned loyalty? A resurfaced 2015 clip shows megashurch pastors Ed Young and At Boshoff calling it non-negotiable—and receiving applause.In this episode, Julie Roys and Lance Ford expose the theology behind those claims, replaying the exchange in full to show it’s not taken out of context.They argue it reflects a broader system—one that manipulates Scripture, elevates “the MAN,” and grooms evangelicals toward silence.
Should apostles and prophets lead the church today—and what happens when they abuse power?Guest podcast host Daniel Silliman speaks with author Matthew D. Taylor to unpack the rise of these charismatic leaders and the troubling scandals surrounding them. Drawing on years of research, Taylor explains why the New Apostolic Reformation is uniquely dangerous—and why reforming it may not be possible.
Why did Pastor Greg Locke publicly label a former friend and longtime church staff member a “witch” just days after celebrating her?Gina and Brian Warren share their account as whistleblowers at Locke's Global Vision Bible Church in middle Tennessee. The Warrens allege misconduct, manipulation, spiritual abuse and extreme efforts to silence them after leaving the megachurch. Tune in to hear their shocking story that raises urgent questions about power, accountability and discernment in today’s church.
A California businessman who donated $250,000 to Sean Feucht says the worship leader used it to buy properties rather than fund ministry. Now philanthropist Steve Bray, who's suing Feucht to return the donation, speaks out on why he’s fighting for transparency and accountability.
CCM star Crystal Lewis says “Even If,” a hit song that she originated, was recorded without her consent and her ownership cut to 10%. In an exclusive interview, The Roys Report journalist Jessica Morris speaks with Lewis about the story around "Even If," which has recently been used as the basis of Mercy Me's feature film 'I Can Only Imagine 2.' What does Lewis’ story reveal about credit, power, and the voices of women in contemporary Christian music? Jessica and host Julie Roys discuss following her eye-opening interview.
Guest Bios Show Transcript In the wake of current exposés of supposed “prophets” — Shawn Bolz, Chris Reed, Todd White and others — many are rethinking the movement they come from. And they’re questioning the teaching of churches, like Bethel, which platformed and covered for these “prophets,” rather than exposing them as frauds. Known as […]
Guest Bios Show Transcript The charismatic Christian world has been rocked by revelations that alleged prophet Shawn Bolz faked prophecies and sexually harassed staff—while leaders at Bethel Church knew for years and failed to warn the public. The public reckoning began with Bible teacher Mike Winger’s bombshell exposé with overwhelming evidence that Bethel leaders continued […]
Guest Bios Show Transcript The Bible is meant to provide truth, refuge, and hope. But what happens when the Word becomes a sword of fear, confusion, or shame for those already wounded by abuse? In this podcast, guest host Lance Ford speaks with theologian and longtime advocate Steve Tracy about how Scripture has often been […]
Guest Bios Show Transcript From a bombshell exposé about Michael Tait and the Newsboys—to a look inside the excessive lifestyle of Daystar TV’s Joni Lamb, our 2025 podcasts covered it all. We also platformed brave victims of America’s most popular megachurches and movements (such as IHOP-KC), who publicly told their stories for the very first […]
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A decade after resigning from Mars Hill Church for arrogance and abuse of power, Mark Driscoll is rising once again, buoyed by his reinvention as a MAGA pastor with close ties to Turning Point USA (TPUSA).
In the wake of the assassination of TPUSA’s founder Charlie Kirk, Driscoll is trending on several platforms. He’s appeared on The Charlie Kirk Show.
In the wake of Charlie Kirk’s assassination, anti-bullying expert Paul Coughlin explains how demonization can lead to physical harm and urges people to respect the dignity of their opponents.
Whistleblower Rachel Beck breaks her silence to expose sexual harassment, grooming, and systemic cover-up by top leaders at Liberty University.
Weak accountability lets predators thrive in churches. Expert guests John Horwood and Ian Mayer of Digital Alibi outline a solution for identifying and stopping these predators.
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Does Jesus’ command to love our enemies mean Christian women must remain in abusive marriages? That’s the troubling claim Pastor Paul LeBoutillier made in a recent sermon at Calvary Chapel in Boise, Idaho. While acknowledging that abuse is “terrible,” he implied Jesus’ words about loving abusers apply to abusive husbands.
Is that a faithful reading of Scripture or a distortion rooted in patriarchy?
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Daystar TV President Joni Lamb is once again framing serious allegations as “cancel culture” and “gossip”—while making it sound deeply spiritual.
On a recent Table Talk episode, Lamb and her panel repeated familiar churchy lines like, “When we point a finger, we have all the others pointing back,” and “The same measure that they judge with, God will judge them.”
But behind the platitudes lies a troubling context: credible claims that Lamb helped cover up the alleged sexual abuse of her granddaughter—claims first reported by The Roys Report last November.
Leadership guru John Maxwell shocked many by publicly honoring disgraced pastor Bill Hybels at the Global Leadership Summit at Willow Creek.
In an attempt to defend her brother Mike Bickle, Lisa Stribling preached a sermon that excuses sin, shames victims, and shields abusers.
Lisa Stribling’s sermon defending her brother Mike Bickle ignited backlash. Now IHOPKC insiders expose its troubling theology and impact on abuse survivors.
In a Q&A podcast, recorded live, attorney Christine Jones joins host Julie Roys to empower survivors to resist silence, NDAs, and institutional intimidation.
But in this deeply personal talk from Restore, Julie Roys explains how remembering God’s faithfulness—both in her own life and through the legacy of her grandfather, Dr. S.I. McMillen—helped her hold on.
Allegations that superstar Michael Tait sexually assaulted multiple young men and boys have rocked the CCM industry. But how culpable are the Newsboys? Host Julie Roys and reporter Jessica Morris discuss.
Relationship coach and counselor Leslie Vernick explains how to identify emotionally destructive churches and how to escape them.
What did pastors Jimmy Evans and Brady Boyd know about their friend Robert Morris’s abuse of a 12-year-old and when? We examine the evidence.
Relationship coach Leslie Vernick provides hope and specific steps for moving beyond a traumatic event to take agency for what comes next.
A former student and soccer coach at Truett McConnell U (TMU) claims a TMU VP sexually abused her and President Emir Caner protected him.
Attorney Melissa Hogan shares her journey of being betrayed by her husband, seeking a place of safety and finding it in abuse survivor community.
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What happens when people start questioning what they were taught about Jesus—and discover the church might be the problem, not their faith?
In his talk from the Restore Conference, author and New Testament scholar Scot McKnight reframes the controversial topic of “deconstruction” as a faithful pursuit of Christ rather than a departure from belief.
McKnight challenges common misconceptions about deconstruction, often mislabeled as rebellion or “exvangelical angst.” Drawing on his recent book Invisible Jesus, co-authored with musician and pastor Tommy Preson Phillips, McKnight shares insights from those rethinking their faith—not to abandon Jesus, but to more firmly grasp authentic faith in Him.
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Despite an investigation finding that Michael Brown engaged in clergy sexual abuse, an Elder Accountability Team cleared him for ministry. And now, Brown has published a video, announcing his return.
What should we make of the allegations against Brown? And is his video truth—or an attempt at image repair and lies?
On this podcast, host Julie Roys welcomes Ron Cantor, a former close friend of Brown’s, to examine the video and the known facts.
In a “fauxpology,” Pastor Jimmy Evans doubled down on his past errant sermon saying Jesus lacked understanding and needed to submit to authority figures
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In a sermon last Sunday, popular Bible teacher Jimmy Evans claimed Jesus, the Son of God, was “wrong.” The outlandish claim was part of a larger argument Evans was making that those in authority know best, so we should submit to them.
Evans, who infamously told former Daystar TV executive Jonathan Lamb that his mother Joni Lamb was “the voice of God” to him, now argues that Jesus’ mother was essentially the voice of God to Jesus.
Looking beyond brands and buildings, microchurch pioneer Brian Sanders says churches can make eternal, mega impact as faithful communities that spark local change.
In this second part of a two-part podcast, a Tyler Deaton cult survivor describes the exorcism she experienced at the International House of Prayer-Kansas City (IHOPKC), Micah Moore’s murder confession, and her journey to healing.
Exclusive interview: a member of Tyler Deaton's cult tells her story, including the cult’s connections to the International House of Prayer in Kansas City (IHOPKC) and Bethany Deaton’s mysterious death.
Rob Wegner shares his journey of spiritual renewal, which took him from megachurch leader to microchurch pioneer.
Baylor professor and researcher Dr. David Pooler dismantles the myth that adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA) is an “affair.”
Mary DeMuth shares her journey of experiencing harm in a Dallas megachurch, but finding Jesus and healing in the wreckage.
Speaking from decades of experience counseling trauma survivors, Dr. Diane Langberg challenges the church to confront hidden abuses within its own walls.
Mike Bickle’s grooming defined the culture of IHOPKC and resulted in widespread abuse, says longtime IHOPKC staff leader Shelley Hundley in this podcast.
Daystar TV insider Melanie Contreras tells of nightmare “counseling” from Fred and Anna Kendall and their collusion with Daystar President Joni Lamb.
Longtime Daystar insider Melanie Contreras uncovered details of Marcus Lamb’s affair, shedding light on the culture and practices at Daystar TV.
Fueled by the “leadership movement,” domineering pastors have left a trail of victims—but JR Woodward says there’s a better way.
The woman who exposed Marcus Lamb’s extramarital affair breaks her silence, with new insights into Daystar TV’s culture of control and cover-up.
Author Lance Ford exposes how churches use faulty teachings to bind and silence Jesus followers, and envisions how truth and reforms can bring freedom.
Daystar TV President Joni Lamb recently prayed curses on-air—is that normal for Christians? Bible teacher Lance Ford parses what the Bible says on this practice.
After being kicked out of the National Religious Broadcasters Convention, two podcasters who’ve reported on the Daystar TV scandal speak out.
Investigative journalist Julie Roys unpacks why her work exposes evil deeds of church leaders—and why truth matters in an era of compromise.
Two survivors of IHOPKC founder Mike Bickle’s abuse share how he groomed and betrayed them, and a survivor advocate shares how they exposed the wolf.
Deborah Perkins, the first victim of Mike Bickle’s who went public, shares of how friends “went to war” with her, to expose an evil system of abuse.
Her story of alleged sexual abuse by Mike Bickle caused the prayer ministry he founded to separate from him. Now she reveals her identity for the first time.
Image repair analyst, Dr. Julia Dahl, says a 10-minute video posted by Mercy Culture Pastor Landon Schott in response to an article is rife with image repair tactics.
Former assistant to Daystar TV founders Marcus and Joni Lamb gives a revealing account of the prominent Christian network.
Jamin Coller, author of Dear Evangelicals, says people are exiting the church because they have questions no one in church wants to hear, let alone answer.
Bible teacher Lance Ford shares that what’s advocated as spiritual leadership and submission in evangelical circles is often really spiritual abuse.
Are allegations by Jonathan and Suzy Lamb about Joni Lamb’s alleged cover-up of sex abuse and “unbiblical” marriage to Doug Weiss part of a “power grab.” The couple respond.
Daystar TV President Joni Lamb claims the allegations against her are lies. On this podcast, Jonathan and Suzy Lamb aim to set the record straight.
Sign an NDA or you’re fired. That's the message the board of Daystar TV and its lawyer sent Jonathan Lamb in a board meeting last November.
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Why was Jonathan Lamb fired from Daystar? According to Daystar, it was due to performance issues and refusing to participate in third-party mediation to resolve grievances in a biblical manner. But according to Jonathan, it’s because he refused to sign an NDA.
Now, The Roys Report is releasing full audio of a Daystar Board meeting on November 16, 2023, so you can judge for yourselves.
After Joni Lamb demanded her son, a former Daystar executive, submit to her authority, a veteran church planter considers if that’s biblical.
NT scholar Scot McKnight contends the deconstruction movement isn’t a problem; it’s a prophetic voice resisting a distorted gospel.
Does Joni Lamb have a pattern of spiritual abuse? Listen to a meeting between her, Jimmy Evans, and her son and his wife, Jonathan and Suzy Lamb.
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https://youtu.be/T6tDPn5nQ7kThe Church is supposed to be the Bride of Christ and the hope for mankind. But has the church in America become nothing more than a business?
On this edition of The Roys Report, Julie speaks with Nathan Apffel, a filmmaker who’s working on a docuseries, called The Religion Business.
Nathan, who has more than 15 years of experience in TV and film production, is confronting megachurches and their pastors with their lack of financial accountability. He’s demanding to know their salaries and housing allowances—and he’s not taking no for an answer.
Last month, he got arrested when he showed up at Ed Young’s megachurch in Grapevine, Texas, carrying signs asking what Ed’s salary and housing allowance is.
Prior to that, Nathan had a run-in with the security team of televangelist Kenneth Copeland on Copeland’s expansive ministry complex, including a mansion and jet runway.
Why do megachurches have security teams that protect them from honest questions? Why do so few congregations know what their pastors make? And why do filmmakers get arrested when they demand transparency?
Buckle up, because this is a wild interview with someone who’s a bit of a cowboy when it comes to his tactics. But his exposés reveal some alarming practices within the church—and he says he’s on a mission to change them.
SUPPORT OUR WORKVisit our Donate page to see our latest year-end financial statement and give to the cause of nonprofit journalism.GuestsNathan ApffelNathan Apffel, an Emmy-winning filmmaker based in Park City, Utah, aims to spur constructive conversations and action through his films and TV series. As a director and producer, his work has won recognition at numerous film festivals and two Emmy Awards. His upcoming seven-part docuseries, The Religion Business. sheds light on the business of Western Religion, and in particular, Christianity. Learn more about The Religion Business, set to release next year, at the official website.
Show TranscriptComing soon
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https://youtu.be/u94-UCMB14kThe fact that abuse occurs at all in churches is horrific. What’s worse—often, the abusers are protected rather than exposed. And the victims bear crushing trauma of both the abuse and the cover-up.
But there is a better way.
On this edition of The Roys Report, internationally renowned psychologist Diane Langberg joins Julie to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God’s People. Not only does the book explain why churches are failing miserably in this area, it also explains how to fix the problem.
Known around the world for her expertise and care as a Christian leader, Dr. Langberg has counseled many victims of high-profile ministry leaders. She knows the evils of sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and rape committed by church predators—and now confronts this devastating evil.
In our discussion based on her latest book, which is available this month to supporters of The Roys Report, Dr. Langberg unveils what she’s learned about how churches cause harm. Why do Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God's people?
She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ—not just in what they teach, but also in how they care for themselves and others.
This insightful conversation offers a small preview of what we’ll be hearing from Dr. Langberg at Restore Conference coming up in February, as she is one of more than a dozen leading Christian voices who will share.
Listen in to hear her heart, with wisdom from walking God’s narrow path for many decades.
GuestsDr. Diane LangbergDr. Diane Langberg is a globally recognized psychologist with 53 years of clinical experience working with trauma patients. She has trained caregivers from six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. For 29 years she directed her own practice in the suburbs of Philadelphia. Now, in partnership with Dr. Phil Monroe, Langberg, Monroe & Associates continues this work which includes more than a dozen therapists. Dr. Langberg has authored numerous books including Redeeming Power and When the Church Harms God's People. Learn more at her website.
Show TranscriptSPEAKERS
JULIE ROYS, DR. DIANE LANGBERG
JULIE ROYS 00:04
Internationally recognized psychologist, Dr Diane Langberg, has encountered the crushing trauma of sexual abuse, domestic abuse and rape and its cover up. Even more tragic, she’s encountered all of this within the church,. But as she explains today, there is a better way.
JULIE ROYS 00:21
Welcome to The Roys report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today Dr Diane Langberg joins me to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God’s People. The fact that abuse occurs at all in the church is horrific. But as listeners to this podcast know, abuse is happening in the church, and too often, the perpetrators are protected, and the victims bear the brunt of not just the abuse but the cover. In her new book, Dr Langberg confronts this horrific evil, and she unveils what she’s learned about how churches cause harm and why Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God’s people. She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ, not just in what they teach, but in how they care for themselves and for others.
JULIE ROYS 01:12
We’ll get to this insightful interview in just a moment, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, The RESTORE Conference, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church, but The RESTORE Conference this February 7 & 8 in Phoenix, Arizona is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary Demuth and Dr David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tov, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly and more. For more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquart, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.
JULIE ROYS 01:12
Well again, joining me today is Dr Diane Langberg, an internationally recognized psychologist with more than five decades of clinical experience with trauma victims. She’s also trained caregivers on six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. She’s also written several books, including her latest, When the Church Harms God’s People. So Diane, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you join me.
- DIANE LANGBERG 02:58
Thank you. It’s an honor to be here.
JULIE ROYS 03:00
I’ve said this to you before in person. I don’t know that I’ve ever said it in a podcast, but I do consider you the matriarch of the abuse survivor community and someone who is not just special because of your trauma experience, but I think because of your faith that has endured really trudging through some amazingly toxic stuff. So again, just such an honor and a pleasure to be with you. And I know last year at RESTORE you weren’t able to be with us because you were writing this book. So I am thrilled that you’re done and able to be with us at the RESTORE coming up in Phoenix.
- DIANE LANGBERG 03:39
I’m thrilled to be done too.
JULIE ROYS 03:43
I hope you appreciate that we’re going to be in Phoenix instead of Chicago when it’s February. So your book talks about when the church harms God’s people. And obviously the church is supposed to be a place of healing and of comfort, but it ceased to be this in some cases. And I know there’s a myriad of reasons for why this has happened, but if you could kind of put your finger on ‘here’s the main reason that I see contributing to what we’re seeing in the church today’, what would you say that is?
- DIANE LANGBERG 04:15
So, rather than the love in those places, we are protecting a system that we think is truth and makes us safe and all those kinds of things. But last I checked, Jesus didn’t die for systems,
JULIE ROYS 04:34
So often it’s the shepherd that is at fault for preying on the sheep. I mean, here we have a shepherd that’s supposed to protect sheep, and instead, we have shepherds who are preying on them, which is just the antithesis of who Jesus is, the antithesis of who they are supposed to be. But sometimes, in fact, probably in 100% of these cases, when there’s a. shepherd who is not really a shepherd, but he’s a wolf parading as one, it’s deception that’s happening. Why is it, how can we tell whether a shepherd who can be incredibly charming, right? and say all the right words and all those things? How can we tell if this person is actually a shepherd, or if he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing?
- DIANE LANGBERG 05:25
Well, I think the way that Jesus put it is by their fruits you will know them. I think that we have fallen into the trap, I suppose, of measuring fruit by success, which, if we measure fruit by success, then Jesus failed.
JULIE ROYS 05:45
So what would you say fruit is?
- DIANE LANGBERG 05:47
It’s likeness to him. I mean when we’re taught about the fruit of the Spirit, it means someone who loves. It means someone who treats others with respect and kindness and protects the sheep because of their preciousness, eternally to the shepherd.
JULIE ROYS 06:10
And yet, so often it is true when I get pushback for the type of reporting that we do, exposing someone who has been a very bad shepherd, that is often what I hear, what about the fruit? And when they say fruit, they mean the numbers, right?
- DIANE LANGBERG 06:29
Yeah. Number and money and fame. That’s fruit which is not fruit of Christ.
JULIE ROYS 06:35
One of the questions that I get asked a lot, and I think it varies from person to person. But they ask, were these predator pastors? Did they begin bad, and they just conned people the whole time into their positions? Or are these people who maybe had good intentions to begin with, maybe were good people to begin with, and the pressures of the system began to change who they were. What would you say to those who asked that question?
- DIANE LANGBERG 07:14
Well, I think the first honest thing I would say is I don’t know, but I think that there is a spectrum of some are this way. Some are this way. Some start out really intending to do good in things. But part of what runs through, I think a lot of it, is that certainly the Christians in general, and places like seminaries and things do not put a lot of expectation or whatever on who you are. It’s what you know how to do and do well, and how well it is happening and how big it is. But again, if you go back to the Gospels and look at the things that Jesus spoke, you know so much of it is about character. And by their fruit you will know them. And the fruit he’s talking about is not how many members you have in your pews. It’s your character, it’s your heart, it’s the way you speak, it’s the way you treat the least of these, those are all the things that measured him, and they are to measure us. I think we’ve lost our way, and I think that’s a global issue.
JULIE ROYS 08:28
Do you think too the mega church movement, and I’ve been asked this as well, are mega churches just inherently bad? And I’m like, Well, no, I mean, there are some mega churches that do-good work, and there’s people who have been saved through these mega churches, who have been discipled through them. But I think for the pastor, I have seen that it seems like all the pressures in a mega church are in the wrong direction. I’m curious what you would say that you’ve seen with our churches today, and whether they help spiritual formation for these leaders, or whether they seem to work in the opposite direction.
- DIANE LANGBERG 09:09
The pressure is terrible, the expectations are extravagant, and everything has God’s name on it. So if you aren’t meeting the pressure, and you aren’t bringing in lots of people, and people aren’t talking about how wonderful you are, you’re not doing a good job. If those are the criteria, then Jesus didn’t do a good job. And so the care of the shepherd, the personality of the shepherd, the heart that not is just given in words, but indeed. All of those things show us who a shepherd is, and we are measuring by outcome. I mean again, you go back to the cross or to the resurrection, there were not very many people about looking for him. I think that we love the institution, and it feels safe to us, and it feels like God must be on our side, because we have 3000 members or whatever, when, in fact, he’s called us to love and to patience and to self-control and things like that. That’s how we look like him, how we serve him, and how we woo others to him.
JULIE ROYS 10:38
Well it is centered around a celebrity so often. And this can happen in large churches, mega churches. This can happen in small churches, where the pastor can be the big fish in the small pond, just as much as you know that the celebrity pastor in this this big institution. And I think when we complain about the pastor or about the institution, we also have to look at ourselves, don’t we? because we’re the consumers of these type of churches. We are the ones that give money to these churches. What responsibility do we have as lay people to ensure that our churches are better?
- DIANE LANGBERG 11:19
I’m not even sure that I would start thinking about it that way, because to ensure our churches are better means to ensure a system is good, and Jesus didn’t die for systems. So the question is number one for me, on my face, asking him where I am not like him to teach me that and to teach me how to become more like Him in those ways. Part of what doing that and living there, not just doing it once or something, but living in that space with God also sharpens our eyes and our ears, and we begin to recognize things that may be painted beautifully but look nothing like Christ. I think, until that happens, the system is evidence of God, which is not whether it’s a church or a political one, or whatever it is, none of that is his fruit. It’s who we are in the places that we live that is to be his fruit.
JULIE ROYS 12:31
Something I’ve really appreciated about you, and I’m hearing it in this interview, but it’s also in your writings. One of my favorite book actually, of yours is that little. It’s just a tiny paperback book on meditations for counselors. And I have found that it’s not just meditations for counselors, it’s meditations really for anybody who’s in work that does take them through some of the grossest evil that’s out there, and how to protect your soul. And I so appreciate that. I know I read it. I said this at the last RESTORE,, because I went through a very difficult time prior to it, and I read those meditations, I went through that book twice, just because I found that I needed to protect my soul, so carefully, because, again, the pressures are just not in the right direction. And I know my own flesh when I encounter these systems, makes me so angry, and you can’t, not when you, when you hear the way that people have abused.
- DIANE LANGBERG 13:40
Jesus cracked whips and turns tables over. So I don’t think he likes it much either.
JULIE ROYS 13:46
And that’s something that I say regularly, and people are like, You sound angry, and I’ll be like, Why aren’t you angry? Like this should make us angry genuinely. Yet at the same time, Satan will use that as an opportunity in our own hearts. And you talk about in your book about the role that deception plays. This was so good, and let’s start with the predator himself. Right? How deception works with someone who is again preying on the sheep rather than protecting the sheep. Often, I wonder if they even admit to themselves what they’re doing.
- DIANE LANGBERG 14:29
Often not. I think that, I mean, obviously we are deceptive creatures. There’s no exceptions. The only exception was Christ, and so we carry that around. And that’s, I mean, it was started in Eden. I didn’t do it. That girl did it.
JULIE ROYS 14:53
Blame it on the Lord.
- DIANE LANGBERG 14:54
Right, of course, but it’s been in us since the beginning. And so our go to thing is when somebody points the finger at us about anything, whether it’s true or not, our first thing is to take care of ourselves. That’s our automatic response, and if what they have given us is true, we have to make it untrue. There’s some way we want to make it untrue because it disturbs us. If we make it true, we don’t want them to think about that. It’s going to hurt our job. It’s going to do whatever. So I don’t think we have really understood the depth of that and its claws on us. And I think that that makes us very vulnerable.
JULIE ROYS 15:47
Yeah, I’m still stunned. James McDonald, who I reported on back. I mean, it started in 2018 but then he was fired from his church in 2019 and most of the elders stepped down. He is out there now today, even after assaulting a 59-year-old woman and breaking her femur, he is still out there proclaiming his innocence, and even with that blaming it on PTSD that he got from me reporting and this 59-year-old woman supposedly triggered, but by the way, just curious of your professional opinion on PTSD being triggered in a situation like that, to actually assault somebody?
- DIANE LANGBERG 16:29
It’s a great cover up on their side.
JULIE ROYS 16:33
And what’s shocking is he got a professional counselor in court to say that.
- DIANE LANGBERG 16:40
If someone has been doing terrible things and actually really begins to see it and is hit by what they have done and grieving by what they have done, having them look like they have PTSD would be expected, but it’s at their own hands that it’s there. It’s not you who did this or said this, therefore I feel this which many abusers would do.
JULIE ROYS 17:06
and it is interesting how the blame often goes everywhere, except on the one person who’s caused it. Let’s talk about deception now with the abused and even with systems. I mean, it does always, I find it difficult to wrap my head around although I know it happens and I believe it happens, but the idea that somebody could be sexually abusing you, and yet you think that this is somehow okay spiritually, like you’re a Christian and you’re able to believe the lies that are told you. Talk about that dynamic and how that plays into it.
- DIANE LANGBERG 17:51
Well, I would say first of all that I don’t think we have really very much understanding of how deep deception is in all of us. No exceptions. No exception is Jesus Christ, and we do it quickly and easily. And anybody who’s raised children realizes it takes about two seconds after birth of them to figure it out. But you don’t have to teach them. It’s there. And so the way that we think is flawed, and I don’t think we start with that premise. We know other people where it’s flawed, but we’re doing the right thinking, and we don’t expose or look at ourselves in those ways. So I think we have very little understanding of the depth of deception in individual humans, often on a daily basis, and then how that shapes and controls systems which only reinforce the deception that we have because we like the system. So it’s here since the beginning. It’s got deep roots.
- DIANE LANGBERG 19:20
When I was a young girl, one of my grandmothers lived in the mountains of West Virginia, and I was staying with her for a couple of days, and she said to me, go downstairs to the cellar and bring up the clothes that we were washing. So I do, and we’re talking about a dirt floor cellar and the whole thing. So I go down into the cellar to get the clothes, and I started crying and screaming, and my grandmother came running, and I came running up the stairs. She turned on the lights, and she said, Watch. And then she said to me, if you turn on the lights, the rats will run. And that came back to me some years ago; in terms of deception, in organizations, in myself, in leaders, in whatever, turning on the lights. And that’s what Jesus did and does – rats run! And then we have to make a choice. Number one, are we going to turn on the light? which most of us are very uncomfortable. I mean, I don’t need him. I get that turn on the light, and they will run.
JULIE ROYS 20:32
So good. I know at RESTORE in 2022 you made the comment that says how to when you were addressing how to recognize a wolf in the church, and you said, Well, one way is to not become one. And I saw some pushback to that. I thought it was a fantastic point because I think we all have this, and if we deny that we have it, that’s almost the scariest situation, because if you are not attending to your own heart, that’s when I think you are most likely to fall into this. But some people said, Oh, wait, isn’t this sin leveling? Because it takes a special kind of evil to be a pedophile or to sexually abuse someone, and not all of us are there. Speak to those folks who were saying that, and I think you know, and I understand where they’re coming from. What would you say to them?
- DIANE LANGBERG 21:36
Well, I think, first of all, sin in itself is on a continuum. I mean, some sins do hideous damage to people that all the help in the world isn’t going to undo. You know, it’s not going to go away, really, until they see the face of Jesus. There are other things that we do, that we see, and we stop doing, or other people see us stop and we change. And things like, it’s all on a continuum. And the problem is, if you have, let’s say, as an adolescent, you start doing things to cover up things, which is pretty common in adolescence, frankly. Did you do this? No, I didn’t do this. Were you in this place? No, I was not. So forth.
JULIE ROYS 22:35
I’m not sure it’s just adolescents either.
- DIANE LANGBERG 22:37
Oh I know it’s not. The point is that it’s very young, and it happens when you can have a toddler. You ask them, “Did they do something? Did you spill this? No, you know, darn sure they were.
JULIE ROYS 22:51
It reminds me of my grandson who, four-year-old grandson who was asked if he did something. He said, No, my mind made me do that. My mind told me to do that.
- DIANE LANGBERG 23:04
Well, that’s a keeper number one and number two, I mean, teach him when he has a different level brain to look at himself. But yes, it’s in all of us. And so when I said that what I’m saying is, don’t live even minorly in the way that perpetrators live. Don’t excuse harm to others. Doesn’t have to be sexual abused, It could be a rude person. Don’t excuse that rudeness. Don’t treat other people as if they have no value or they can easily be discarded or whatever.
- DIANE LANGBERG 23:43
It is the things that grow and control if we keep doing them that we don’t theoretically want to do. And that’s what I mean by that. Look at yourself and we are very good at saying, Well, I did do this, but I didn’t do that. We do that all the time, and we’re leveling it, and we’re not looking at ourselves in the light when we do that. That’s what we’re called to do.
JULIE ROYS 24:16
I love that you say, put rudeness up there and not honoring people as made in God’s image. I find sometimes it’s hard to remember that even the perpetrator was made in God’s image. And someone who’s taught me a great deal about that is Lori Anne Thompson. I have never heard her dehumanize another human being. Again, for those who don’t know her, she was one of the victims of sexual abuse by Ravi Zacharias. I’ve never heard her do that, and I find being around her makes me a better person, because I always hear her honoring every person. Not that she won’t call them words that they rightly have owned, but to remember that every single person is made in God’s image and treat them. ,
- DIANE LANGBERG 25:09
Yes, you will never meet somebody who is not, even if they’ve got their bodies six feet waiting in hell. They were made in the image of God.
JULIE ROYS 25:23
It reminds me of CS Lewis, who said, “We will never meet a mere mortal.
- DIANE LANGBERG 25:28
Right? Yes, which does not mean being easy on it. That’s one of the places many people get confused. If I think this way, then I but actually, if you really think that way and love somebody, I mean they’re dancing in hell, for crying out loud, if they’re abusing children or something like that. The gift to them is the truth and turning on the lights so the rats run .
JULIE ROYS 25:56
Absolutely. And repentance is a gift. And the best thing we can do is call them to repentance, and I try to keep that in the forefront of my work too, that that is always my hope. Do I want them to be removed from spiritual positions? Yes, but ultimately we pray for their soul. Ultimately we pray that they would repent.
JULIE ROYS 26:19
When you talk about the deception that operates in these systems. There’s a lot of, I mean, even psychologically, what’s going on with, I think, the staff, with the people, the lay people, as they hear things. And you talked about something called Truth Default Theory. Would you explain what that is and how that often is in operation when these things begin to get revealed?
- DIANE LANGBERG 26:51
The best way to find out what that is to read that section of the book, frankly. And it’s not a short thing to explain, so to speak. But people choose to lie because they think the outcome will be good. If you tell the truth of a big mess, the outcome will be bad, which there’s some truth to that . You’re going to blow something up if you tell the truth. It’ll make a mess, and everything else. And so I think that people want to keep the system okay. And so you’ll see these places or whatever, where the leader has been sexually abusive, maybe for years and years, and they got rid of the leader, but they don’t go any deeper. They don’t go any deeper into it because this is the church, and we want it to be, we want it to thrive, and we’re glad that that stopped and all that kind of stuff. And we make it shallow. It’s not shallow. You can’t do harm like abuse or live with that harm for years or months or whatever, and then just walk away and be fine. It’s not a possibility. And so part of that is understanding the different ways that people hold on to systems. Now, this is my church. I love it. I’m going to protect it. Yes, he did those things, yes, they’re terrible, but we fired him, and that’s all. It’s shallow in terms of really understanding.
JULIE ROYS 28:37
And when we have this vested interest, we do seem to try, and we’ve seen this a lot, we seem to choose who we believe. And so often, I think people are just predisposed to believing the person who has the position of spiritual authority, and usually the victim is someone we’ve never heard of and often, one of the first things that the system does to protect their basically, this is their money maker, right? This is their image as a church or as a ministry, is that they will denigrate the person who’s bringing whether it’s a reporter, whether it’s the victims themselves bringing the allegations, and the people seem to be predisposed to just believing the person we want to believe.
- DIANE LANGBERG 29:40
Yes, yes, yes. We want it to be okay. We want it just to go back to normal without the bad guy, they figured out. First of all, the understanding of how it seeps into everything, contaminates everything is not understood. So if the bad guy is gone, so to speak, then let’s just be fine. But if a bad guy had run a truck over a half of the denomination and nobody could walk, what would you do? That’s clear there is the harm, and it’s still there, even though the people who drove the trucks got kicked out. But with this kind of thing, I think it’s easier for people to push it away and say, well, the bad is gone. And, this is good, whatever.
JULIE ROYS 30:34
Talk about the larger system. So I often refer to it as the evangelical industrial complex. I think you refer to it a little bit differently, but it’s the same thing. Often it’s not just the particular institution where there’s allegations being raised, but there’s an entire system behind that nation, a denomination, or even a camp like I think we saw that with Mike Bickle and sort of the International Houses of Prayer and their related ministries, and even that seeped into the Messianic ministries that were very much a part of this. Talk to those who maybe are somewhat naive about how these systems work. Because I know before, before I got a job several decades ago at Moody Radio, I didn’t know this existed. I was kind of like, pretty blind to it all. And I just thought, these are all wonderful ministries. And I think a lot of people believe that and I wish it were all true; some of them are wonderful ministries. But talk about that system and how it exists and how it works.
- DIANE LANGBERG 31:54
Well, even if you think of it just as a family or a big system like that, the idea of the family, or the idea of a church, whatever. Those are good ideas. We love the idea. We want to help the idea. We want to make it grow. We want it to get bigger, and all of those things. And then something comes along that shows that there’s cancer and so sometimes we ignore that. There’s plenty of organizations that do that. Sometimes the response is very superficial, and sometimes people really want to get rid of, say, those who are the source of the cancer, whatever, but they still aren’t doing any treatment for the cancer.
JULIE ROYS 32:42
Some of it’s quite carnal too, isn’t it? Just come down to, I mean, we’re talking dollars and cents with some of these.
- DIANE LANGBERG 32:47
Oh my goodness, yes, fame and a whole lot of money.
JULIE ROYS 32:51
It really is amazing, once you get into this, when you realize how much the celebrity pastor supports the entire industry, whether it’s the mega church, whether it’s publishing, whether it’s Christian radio, because we rely on them for our programming and to bring the big crowds, or to bring the audience to a station, I mean, all of those things. And I think people don’t realize it is a billions, billions of dollars involved in evangelicalism.
- DIANE LANGBERG 33:21
Be we tell ourselves, it’s all God’s work, and his message is getting out there, and people are hearing, and we have to protect that period .
JULIE ROYS 33:30
And despite the fact that these pastors are living in multi-million-dollar homes, sometimes multiple multi-million-dollar homes, and somehow we say they deserve it? like whether they deserve it or not, Christ didn’t live like.
- DIANE LANGBERG 33:46
He certainly deserved it, right?
JULIE ROYS 33:50
And yet he, he never, you know, I always go back to Philippians two, being in very nature God did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped. But instead, emptied Himself and became a servant and it’s like we’ve forgotten that model. And sometimes I’m just like, wow.
- DIANE LANGBERG 34:12
Well, I think in many ways, over, I don’t know how many decades, but that the Christian world has forgotten those things, which I can’t imagine how much grief we have caused our God.
JULIE ROYS 34:25
Despite these harms that you talk about in your book, and you explain, and we’ve talked about on this podcast, you express hope for the church. And I think a lot of folks are looking at the American church and not feeling very hopeful at all. Why do you feel that there’s hope?
- DIANE LANGBERG 34:48
Because Jesus Christ exists. It goes back to him. But I have also in this work, met very fine, pastors, leaders, whatever, who have come in to see me, whether struggling with something or whatever, but who long to do right to please God, to love Jesus well, to love their people well. So I have not had a diet of only those who are either victims of terrible harm or doing the harm. I think if that’s all I’d had, I would have a much harder thing to think about in terms of my thoughts about God, and I did. There was a time, I don’t know how long ago it was now, some years where I decided I can’t do this anymore. It’s going to make me rotten inside. And literally got down on my knees and said to God, okay, I’m done. You’ll have to let me know what other job you want me to do. Obviously, he did not do that, because I’m still there. That was a turning point for me in many ways, many of them wonderful. But you know, how much of that can you sit with and look at and not be made sick by it? If you’re not, something’s wrong with you. But if it does that to you, then, how do you deal with yourself?
JULIE ROYS 36:23
And I think one of the most insidious parts of religious abuse and trauma in the church is that it separates you often from community. And I have found, and I haven’t been in this nearly as long as you, but that community, and I think we need to sometimes redefine it. And I mean, I’m in a house church now, and I’ve talked about this on numerous podcasts, but it’s been a safe place for me. It’s been a wonderfully healing place for me. But it’s just been crucial. And I know not everybody has that opportunity, but somehow I just think we have to, we have to seek that out, even if it’s really difficult for us. And I understand some people need to take a break for a while, and I totally get that. And we had a very compassionate church, or house church, where there were a number of us that were wounded, that people were willing to sit with us in that and not try to make something out of what we were doing more than just loving people, which really is, I mean, that’s the essence of it, all right. Wow. That that you’re right. If all you encounter are toxic people doing toxic things, and I still feel this way to this day, the most beautiful people that I know still are Christians. Some of the most ugly ones that I’ve encountered are professing Christians, whether they know Christ, that’s between them and him. But yeah, I will still say the most loving, beautiful human beings on this planet that I know are still Christians.
- DIANE LANGBERG 38:16
Yes, and I have found that to be true. And I’ve sat with people sometimes for years working through growing up with abuse, churches abusing, I mean, just the idea that anybody can grow and have a life and bear good fruit out of all of that, it’s a miracle. But I watch it, it’s there, and it is a thing of beauty,
JULIE ROYS 38:43
Truly is. I’ve said this before, but you are an inspiration to me. I know you’re an inspiration to so many of the folks that are listening,. I would just love to know from you, and I know you, that there is no secret hill or secret formula. But as you’re looking back over five decades of work and your relationship with Jesus, what would be some things that you would say to us, and remaining true to the end, fighting the good fight, being able to say someday before Christ, or hearing him say to us, well done, good and faithful servant. We want to get there. How can we get there?
- DIANE LANGBERG 39:40
Well, I think one of the things I would say is that I did try to quit once. I mean, I told God, I was quitting. I didn’t ask him anything. Probably, there’s something about me, of course, but I couldn’t do it. I was either gonna react in ways that were harmful for people or just deaden myself. Those seem to be the only options, and that was a huge turning point for me. I obviously did stay with it. So he won, but he responded to me and helped me see things in way of the cross that I had not seen before, in who he is in his heart. So feel like quitting. I think that’s pretty normal, you know, and I think a lot of people do. But I think, yeah, I literally got down on my face on the floor, and said, I quit your turn, I don’t know what to do. But he responded, and I’m so grateful, and I’m so grateful I didn’t. I’ve learned more of him by staying I wouldn’t trade for anything. I’ve also seen changes, not just in individuals, which I have, but in some systems, or at least portions of it was probably right.
JULIE ROYS 41:13
I mean obviously God could do all of the work that we do without us. He doesn’t need us, and yet he chooses to allow us to partner with what he’s doing in the world and through that, we become different people. We become, I’ve said it to my husband before, like I feel sometimes like he is making us more enjoyable companions for him.
- DIANE LANGBERG 41:44
Yes, we become more like Him. And you don’t feel it in the middle of it, and it takes a long time, but it’s somewhere along the way you look back and go, Oh, that’s not what I was like before. Has his aroma in it.
JULIE ROYS 42:01
Well, I just want to thank you so much for your work, for your writing, and I’m just absolutely thrilled that you’re coming to RESTORE in February. So looking forward to that. And a new thing thanks to Phil Monroe, your partner there, is having a pre-conference for counselors. Because, again, we need to minister to the counselors, to the caregivers, to the pastors, absolutely. And so I’m thrilled that we’re going to be able to do that, and you’re going to be able to participate in that. And then the conference as well and speaking to a lot of people who’ve been through an awful lot of church hurts. So very much looking forward to that. But thank you so much for taking the time today, and thank you for this new book, even though we weren’t able to have you toward the last RESTORE, which, for me personally, was a sacrifice, but definitely worth it in the book. So thank you.
- DIANE LANGBERG 42:58
Well, thank you for having me, and I am glad for the work that you do. It touches people, but whose souls have been hurt, gives them a taste of light and love. So blessings on you..
JULIE ROYS 43:19
Thank you.
JULIE ROYS 43:22
Thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and I would love to get you a copy of Diane’s latest book, When the Church Harms God’s People. This is our premium to donors this month. So if you give $40 or more to The Roys Report, we’ll send you a copy of Diane’s book. As many of you know, your gifts to this work is what makes it possible. We can’t do anything that we do, from our podcast to our daily reporting to our investigations, without your support. So please consider helping us out, and when you do, we’ll get you a copy of Diane’s book, When the Church Harms God’s People. To donate and get the book, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Spotify, or YouTube, that way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review, and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content again. Thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged.
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https://youtu.be/g3j3C25thlc
Much research has been done to address individual trauma. But what happens when trauma is collective—when an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted?
In this edition of The Roys Report, Kayleigh Clark, a pastor and a pastor’s kid, discusses the impact of communal suffering, which church leaders often overlook.
Kayleigh, a doctoral student at Kairos University, is completing her dissertation on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. And what she’s learned is ground-breaking for churches that have experienced pastoral abandonment or moral failure and are struggling to recover.
As was explained in the popular book, The Body Keeps the Score, unhealed trauma—if unaddressed—will manifest itself as physical and psychological ailments in our bodies. Likewise, unaddressed trauma in the Body of Christ will also manifest as corporate dysfunction and pain.
But as Kayleigh explains in this eye-opening podcast, this doesn’t have to be the case. Healing is available. But it requires congregants and spiritual leaders who understand trauma and don’t try to charge forward before the congregation has healed.
Given all the unhealed trauma in the church, this is such a relevant and important podcast. It’s also one that discusses dynamics Julie knows all too well, as someone who’s in a church with others who’ve experienced deep church hurt.
She discusses her own experience in the podcast, which could be a prime case study.
Guests
Kayleigh ClarkKayleigh Clark is founder and director of Restor(y), which exists to journey with churches on the hope-filled path of healing and restoration. She completed a Master of Divinity at Northeastern Seminary and is currently a Th.D. Candidate at Kairos University with a focus on the interplay between psychology and theology. Kayleigh and her husband, Nate, love exploring the outdoors with their son near their home in Rochester, New York. Learn more about Restor(y) online.
Show Transcript
[00:00:00] Julie: Much research has been done to address individual trauma, but what happens when trauma is collective? When an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted. According to my guest today, the impact of communal suffering is often overlooked, but the body of Christ keeps score.
[00:00:22] Julie: Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and a pastor’s kid who’s well acquainted with the beauty, joy, pain, and heartache that exists within the church. Kaylee also is a doctoral student at Kairos University, and her dissertation work focuses on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration.
[00:00:50] Julie: She also is the director of ReStory, a ministry to help churches heal and embody the hope of Jesus, especially after experiencing a devastating loss or betrayal. I had the pleasure of meeting Kaylee about a week ago, and I was so excited by her insights and the work that she’s doing that I was like, you have to come on my podcast.
[00:01:10] Julie: So I am thrilled that she can join me today, and I know you’re going to be blessed by this podcast. I’ll get to my interview with Kaylee in just a minute, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, the Restore Conference and Mark Horta Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing.
[00:01:30] Julie: So, Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor, or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church. But the Restore Conference, this February 7th and 8th in Phoenix, Arizona, is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary DeMuth and Dr.
[00:01:50] Julie: David Pooler An expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Toe, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly, and more. For more information, just go to Restore2025. com. That’s Restore2025. com. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington.
[00:02:17] Julie: Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to buyacar123. com.
[00:02:37] Julie: Well, again, joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and doctoral student who’s studying congregational collective trauma and the paths to healing and restoration. She’s also the founder of Restoree and she’s a wife and mother of a beautiful baby boy. So Kaylee, welcome. It’s just such a pleasure to have you.
[00:02:56] Kayleigh: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s an honor and a pleasure to be with you today.
[00:03:00] Julie: Well, I am just thrilled to have you on our podcast and I mentioned this in the open, but We talked last week and I was just like, Oh my word, everything that you’re doing, your work is so important. And it’s so where I’m living right now.
[00:03:15] Julie: And I know a lot of our listeners are living as well. And so I’m thrilled about it. But as you mentioned, your work is, is unique. We’re going to get into that, but I am just curious, this whole idea, collective trauma, you know, ministering. To the church. How did you get interested in this work?
[00:03:33] Kayleigh: Sure. Um, so I am fourth generation clergy.
[00:03:37] Kayleigh: So great grandpa, grandpa, my dad, and then me. So are all pastors. Uh, and so I’ve just always known the church, uh, pastors have also been kind of my second family. I’ve always felt at home amongst the church and amongst pastors. Um, but when you grow up in the parsonage and other PKs will know this, uh, you are not hidden from.
[00:03:58] Kayleigh: The difficult portions of church and the really hard components of church. And so then when you add on to that, becoming a pastor myself, you know, my eyes continued to be open, uh, to some of the ways that church can be a harmful place as much of it as it is a healing place. And I began to kind of ask the question, well, well, why, um, what is going on here?
[00:04:21] Kayleigh: Um, particularly because when I served and we’ll get into more of this, I think, but when I was serving in my first lead pastor, it’s. So I’m a really young, I was like 27 when they, or 28 when they entrusted me when I first lead pastorate, which is kind of wild. And so they kind of threw me in and what they do with most young pastors is they kind of throw us into these dying churches.
[00:04:44] Kayleigh: And so, right, it’s a small. Church with, you know, it’s dying, it’s dwindled in numbers. And so this is my first kind of lead pastorate. And, you know, I read all the books, I’m a learner, I’m a reader. I, you know, I know how to do all the things. And so I’m reading all of the books on how to revitalize a church and raise a church up from it and all those things and nothing is working.
[00:05:06] Kayleigh: Um, and it started to kind of really raise my attention to, well, maybe there’s something else going on here. Um, And, and maybe we’ve been asking the wrong questions when we’ve been approaching the church. Uh, and so, uh, again, I’m a learner, so I was like, well, I’m just going to go back to school. If that was the only way I knew how to figure this out.
[00:05:25] Kayleigh: So I landed in a THD program that focused on combining the studies of trauma theory with theology. Um, and my undergraduate degree is in psychology, so it felt kind of like a merging of my two worlds. Um, and it was there that I encountered collective trauma and. Really in an interesting way, studying, um, more like childhood development trauma.
[00:05:46] Kayleigh: But anytime I looked at it, all I could see was the church, um, and seeing the ways in which there might be a bigger picture. There might be a bigger story going on here. And maybe there’s some collective congregational trauma underneath the, these dying, uh, declining churches that we just aren’t aware of.
[00:06:04] Julie: So, so good. And this is the thing that, that just stuns me. When I, I, I do an investigation and the top pastor gets fired, sometimes all the elders step down, but the church, it’s, it’s unbelievably rare for one of those churches to thrive afterwards. And I, and I think so much of it is they think, Oh, we got rid of the bad apple.
[00:06:29] Julie: And they have no concept of how that toxicity, one, you know, the toxic, often bullying way of relating and everything was, was taught and learned and trained throughout. But then there is that trauma and, and I just, I think of Willow Creek Community Church, I went to their, it was like a midweek service where they were going to deal with, Supposedly, the women who had been sexually harassed and abused by Bill Heibel’s, the previous pastor, and they didn’t even name it.
[00:07:08] Julie: They didn’t name what had happened. They didn’t go into what had happened. They didn’t apologize to the women. The women became like this amorphous something out there, the women, you know? Um, and, and then they talked about, they had a repentance time, like we’re supposed to repent for his sins. It was the most bizarre, unhealing thing I had ever seen.
[00:07:27] Julie: And I couldn’t imagine how after something that dysfunctional, a church could go, okay, we’re back, you know, reach the lost, you know, seeker sensitive church. It was just bizarre. Um, so, so much of your work is, is resonating with me. And again, We’ve seen a lot in and it’s really important is dealing with individual trauma and which is super important work.
[00:07:53] Julie: Um, and my last podcast with Chuck DeGroat, we talked a lot about that. We talk a lot about that on a lot of podcasts, but we often don’t address again, what’s this collective trauma that, that, you know, that it actually has a social aspect. So talk about why is it important that we begin addressing collective trauma and not just individual trauma, though, you know, obviously we each need to heal as individuals, but collectively as well.
[00:08:24] Kayleigh: Yeah. So collective trauma is a newer field, even in psychological studies. So it’s, Not as old as individual trauma studies, and it actually became more popular through the work of Kai Erikson, who’s a sociologist. He’s not even a psychologist, but he studied collective trauma in kind of what he refers to as unnatural disasters.
[00:08:43] Kayleigh: And so these disasters that are experienced by communities that have a human, like, blame component. So it was due to somebody’s negligence due to somebody’s poor leadership due to somebody’s abuse, and it’s on a community. And so Kai Erickson notes the, the social, he calls it the social dimension of trauma or collective trauma.
[00:09:03] Kayleigh: And what he, he details there is that collective trauma is anything that disrupts and ruptures the, uh, relationships within a community. Distorting and taking apart their, uh, he calls it communality instead of community, but it’s their sense of, like, neighborliness. It’s their sense of being together. It’s their, Their shared identity and their, their shared memories are all now distorted.
[00:09:26] Kayleigh: And so I think when we’re speaking specifically about the church, and when we’re looking at religious trauma and congregational trauma, we need to remember that the church is first and foremost, a community. And so sometimes I think that’s missed in our kind of American individualism. You know, a lot of people kind of view spirituality as this individualistic thing, but the church is a community.
[00:09:48] Kayleigh: And so when we come together as the body of Christ, you know, when wounding happens, when trauma comes, it breaks down the relationships within that congregation, which really. is what makes it a church. The relationships are what make that a church. And so when trauma comes in and disrupts those and starts causing the divisions and the distrust and the he said, she said, and the choosing of sides and the church splits and all of these things have these ripple effects on the community.
[00:10:19] Kayleigh: Um, and they really are, are traumatizing. And so what happens is that if we don’t deal, if we’re only dealing with the individual trauma, In part, that’s usually dealing with people who have left the church, right? And so usually the people who are seeking individual healing from their religious trauma, who are able to name that, who are able to say, I went through this, have often stepped outside of the church.
[00:10:42] Kayleigh: Sometimes just for a season, which is completely understandable. They need that time away. They need time to heal. They’re, they don’t, feel safe. But what we’re missing when we neglect the social dimension of religious trauma are often the people who stay are these congregations who can’t name it yet, who can’t articulate that what they’ve gone through is religious trauma, who who maybe are still trying to figure out what that means.
[00:11:07] Kayleigh: Often it means that we’re missing, um, you know, these, these the church that I served in, you know, isn’t one of these big name churches that’s going to get, you know, newscasted about. And they can’t necessarily name what happened to them as religious trauma because nobody’s given them the language for it.
[00:11:25] Kayleigh: And so we’ve often missed these, these declining churches. We’ve missed because we haven’t remembered that Trauma is communal that trauma is relational. And so we need to, yes, provide as much care and as much resourcing as we can for the healing of individuals, because you can’t heal the community if the individuals don’t know.
[00:11:44] Kayleigh: But we really need to remember that the community as a whole. impacted, and that especially when we’re talking about the church, we want to be able to heal and restore those relationships. And to do that means we have to address the social dimensions of the religious trauma. And so
[00:12:01] Julie: often the people that, that stay aren’t aware of what’s happened to them.
[00:12:08] Julie: Are they not even aware they’re traumatized?
[00:12:11] Kayleigh: Right, right. Yeah.
[00:12:13] Julie: Yeah. You introduced this, this concept, which is great. I mean, it’s, it’s a riff off of the book, The Body Keeps the Score, which, you know, um, just an incredible book by, uh, Dr. Vander Kolk. But this idea that the body of Christ keeps the score.
[00:12:33] Julie: Describe what you mean by that, that the body of Christ keeps the score when there’s this kind of trauma that it’s experiencing.
[00:12:40] Kayleigh: Sure. So you kind of alluded to it earlier when you were giving an example of the removing of a toxic pastor, right? And then just the placement of a new pastor. And so often what happens in these situations where there’s spiritual abuse or, um, clergy misconduct or any of those things that’s causing this religious trauma, the answer seems to be, well, let’s just remove the.
[00:13:00] Kayleigh: Problem person. And then that will solve everything. Um, well, what happens is we forget that trauma is embodied, right? And so you can remove the physical threat. Um, but if you remove the physical threat or the problem person, but this congregation still has this embodied sense of trauma in which they perceive threat now.
[00:13:23] Kayleigh: So they’re reacting to their surroundings out of that traumatized position, because that’s what the collective body has learned to do. And so you see this, um, It’s a silly example, but I use it because I think people see it a lot. So you have a new pastor come in and the new pastor has a great idea, at least he or she thinks it’s a great idea.
[00:13:46] Kayleigh: And it probably has to do with removing pews or changing carpet color. Okay. And so they present this, what they think is just a great harmless idea. And the response of the congregation is almost volatile and the pastor can’t figure out why. And often, unfortunately, what pastors have kind of been taught to identify is that they must just idolatry.
[00:14:11] Kayleigh: They just have the past as an idol for them and they need to kill this golden cow. Right. And so it becomes this theological problem. Sure, there might be cases where that is the truth, but often I would say that there’s, um, a wonderful. So another great book on trauma. It’s more on racialized trauma, but it deals a lot with historical trauma is, um, rest my Mac mannequins book, um, my grandmother’s hands and in it, he addresses this historical trauma that is embodied and he quotes Dr.
[00:14:42] Kayleigh: Noel Larson, who says, if it’s hysterical, it’s probably historical. In other words, if the reaction to the thing happening doesn’t seem to match, like it seems out of proportion, either too energized or not enough energy around it, it’s probably connected to some kind of historical trauma that hasn’t been processed.
[00:15:03] Kayleigh: And so we see this a lot in churches who are having a hard time being healthy and flourishing and engaging with the community around them. And. The reason why is often because they have this unhealed trauma that nobody’s given them language for. Nobody’s pointed out, nobody’s addressed for them. Um, and so it’s just kind of lingering under the surface, unhealed, unnamed, and it’s informing how they believe, how they act.
[00:15:33] Kayleigh: Um, and so this is really What I mean when I say the body of Christ keeps the score is that the body of Christ has embodied this trauma and it’s coming out in their behaviors, in their actions, in their values, and our pastors are not equipped to address it from a trauma informed perspective. They’ve only been given tools to address it from maybe a theological position, or this kind of revitalization remissioning perspective.
[00:16:02] Kayleigh: That often doesn’t work.
[00:16:04] Julie: There’s so many things I’m thinking as as you’re talking. I mean one. to come in and do something. And then because people react to, I mean, basically that’s shaming them. It’s guilting them to say, Oh, you have an idol or what’s wrong with you that you can’t get on board. And the truth is they don’t know what’s wrong with them.
[00:16:23] Julie: They, they don’t. And, and they’re hurt. And all they know is you just, they’re hurt and now you’ve hurt them. So now they don’t trust you. So way to go. Um, but I’m thinking maybe because we brought this up and I don’t mean to beat up on, on Willow Creek, but I’m thinking about. When the new pastor came in, and I don’t think he’s a bad guy, um, you know, they, they were bleeding money.
[00:16:45] Julie: Obviously they, they did not have the resources they did before. So one of the first things they did was they centralized, which meant the campus pastors weren’t going to be preaching anymore. They were going to be pumping in video sermons. Here’s the pastor that people trusted on these campuses. Now, that person’s not going to be preaching, which then of course, all of them left.
[00:17:06] Julie: They ended up leaving and the trauma you’d now it’s trauma upon trauma. And it just seems like, especially in so many of these churches, you bring somebody in and they want to move somewhere like, right. They want a thriving church. What they don’t want to do is be at a church and sit in your pain. And yet.
[00:17:27] Julie: Unless that’s done, I mean, can these churches, I mean, can they move forward? I mean, what’s going to happen if you come in and you don’t? slow down and say, these people are hurting and I need to, I need to be a shepherd. Then that’s the other thing. It’s so many of these mega churches, and I know this isn’t unique to mega churches that this happens, but I, it’s the world in which I report so often is that these mega churches are very mission vision, five year plan oriented and what they’re not capable of doing.
[00:17:59] Julie: I think so many of these, you know, and they always bring in the, the pastor. That’s a good orator, maybe not a shepherd at all. In fact, some of these guys even say, I’m not a shepherd, which that’s another, yeah, I mean, but, but to actually, they need a shepherd at that point. Right. I mean, these, these people need it.
[00:18:20] Julie: So, I mean, again, what, what do they need to do? And what happens if they don’t do some of these things?
[00:18:28] Kayleigh: So the thing that I have really been drawn to, especially as I study Jesus, and I look at what it means to be trauma informed in the pastorate. So I, I do believe that God is still working through pastors.
[00:18:39] Kayleigh: Um, in fact, there’s a really beautiful section of scripture in Jeremiah 23, where God is addressing abusive shepherds and God’s response is, I will raise up new shepherds. So God still wants to work through shepherds. There is still a place for a pastor. The problem is, is I don’t think we’ve taught pastors how to lead out of a posture of compassionate curiosity.
[00:19:03] Kayleigh: And so if you follow Jesus and you look at the way that Jesus interacts with hurting people, it is out of this beautiful, humble posture of compassionate curiosity. And so I was always struck by like, he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? And it always seemed like a. That’s a strange question.
[00:19:20] Kayleigh: Like, he’s blind, Jesus. What do you think he and often it’s preached on, like, well, we need to be able to tell God what we want. And that’s maybe some of it. But I think it’s also the truth that God knows that it can be re traumatizing to somebody to tell them what they need and what they want. Right? So what we learned when we studied trauma is that it’s not.
[00:19:40] Kayleigh: So especially when we’re talking trauma caused by abuse is that abuse is so connected to control. And so what has often happened to these victims of religious abuse of spiritual abuse is that they have had control taken from them entirely. And so when a new pastor comes in and tells them, this is what you need to get healthy again, and never takes the time to approach them from this.
[00:20:02] Kayleigh: posture of compassionate curiosity, they can end up re traumatizing them. Um, but our pastors aren’t trained to ask these questions. And so, so often if you read, you know, and they’re well meaning books, you know, they’re, they’re trying to get to what’s going on in the heart of the church. They’re trying to get back to church health, but so many of the books around that have to deal with.
[00:20:23] Kayleigh: Asking the church, what are you doing or what are you not doing? And trauma theory teaches us to ask a different question. And that question is what happened to you? And I think if pastors were trained to go into churches and ask the question, what happened to you and just sit with a church and a hold the church and, and listen to the stories of the church, they, they might discover that these people have never been given space to even think about it that way.
[00:20:52] Kayleigh: You know, where they’ve just, they’ve had abusive leaders who have just been removed or they’ve had manipulative leaders who have just been removed and they’ve just been given a new pastor and a new pastor and nobody’s given them the space. To articulate what that’s done to them, um, as individuals and as a congregation.
[00:21:09] Kayleigh: And so if we can learn to, to follow Jesus in just his curiosity, and he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? He, he says, who touched me when the woman reaches out and touches him. And that’s not a, it’s not a question of condemnation. That’s a question of permission giving. He knows that this woman needs more than physical healing.
[00:21:28] Kayleigh: She needs relational healing. She needs to tell her story. And by pausing and saying, who touched me? He provides a space for her to share her story that she’s never been able to share with anyone before. And I think if we were to follow that Jesus, as pastors and as leaders, we would begin to love the Bride of Christ in such a way that would lead to her healing, instead of feeling the need to just rush her through some five year plan to what we think is healing and wholeness, and what actually may not be what they would say is what they need.
[00:22:02] Julie: So many things you’re saying are resonating with me. And part of that’s because, uh, like I said, we’re living this. Um, I, I told you last week when we talked that our, our house church was going on a retreat, first retreat we’ve ever had. We’ve been together a little over, well, for me, I came in about two years ago and I think they had been meeting maybe eight or nine months before then.
[00:22:29] Julie: Some of the people in our group, Um, don’t come out of trauma. Um, you know, one of our, one of the couples in our church, uh, they’re like young life leaders, really just delightful, delightful, delightful people, but they haven’t lived the religious trauma. One couple is, they’re from the mission field and they had a great missions experience.
[00:22:55] Julie: The only trauma they might be experiencing is coming home to the U. S. The truth is they love the mission field, right? Um, and then. The remainder of us come from two, two churches, um, that, that had some sexual abuse that was really, you know, mishandled and the trust with the leaders was, was broken in really grievous ways.
[00:23:19] Julie: Um, and then there’s me on top of having that, um, living in this space where, I mean, I just report on this all the time. And so, but one of the beautiful things that happened in this, in this group is that it did have leaders when we came into it and it triggered us. Like, you know, and for us it was like, oh, here’s the inside group and the outside group.
[00:23:47] Julie: Like, we’re used to the ins and the outs, right? And, and we’re used to the inside group having power and control, and the rest of us just kind of go along with it. And, and we’re, we’re a tiny little group. Like we’re 20 some people, right? But, but it’s just, and, and we’re wonderful people. Wonderful people.
[00:24:02] Julie: And yet we still like, it was like, mm. And um, and so. The beautiful thing is that those leaders recognize, like they didn’t fully understand it, but they said, you know, I think we need to just step down and just not have leaders. And I didn’t even realize till we went on this retreat what an act of service and of love that was for them to just say, were laying down any, any agendas we might’ve had, any even mission or vision that we might’ve had.
[00:24:35] Julie: And for one of, you know, one of the guys, it was really hard for him cause he’s just like, Mr. Mr. Energy and initiative. And, and he was like, I better not take initiative because like, it’s, it’s not going to be good for these folks. Um, and on the retreat. So then, I mean, it was, it was really a Holy Spirit.
[00:24:54] Julie: experience, I think for all of us, because there definitely was a camp that was like, okay, we’ve had this kind of healing time, but can, can we move forward a little bit? Like, can we, can we have some intentionality? And then there were part of us that were just like, oh my word, if we, if we, if we have leaders, why do we need leaders?
[00:25:12] Julie: We’re 20 something people. Like we can just decide everything ourselves. And, and there really was somewhat of an impasse, but it’s interesting. The things that you said for me, And it was funny at one point. They’re like, can’t you just trust? And, you know, kind of like, what, what are you guys afraid of? You know?
[00:25:29] Julie: And the first thing that came out of my mouth was control control. Like we’re afraid of control, um, or I’m afraid of control. Um, but what was so, so. Huge for me and I think was one of those again, Holy Spirit moments was when, you know, I was trying to like make a point about power dynamics, like you don’t realize power and like we have to be aware of how power is stewarded in a group like this because everybody has power.
[00:25:59] Julie: If you don’t realize as a communicator the power that you have, like I’m aware now that because I can, I can form thoughts pretty quickly. That I can have a lot of influence in a group. I’m aware of that. And so, you know, there was even like a part where I was leading and then I was like, I can’t lead this next thing.
[00:26:17] Julie: I’ve been leading too much, you know, and then we, and then we gave, we, somebody had a marker and we gave the marker to, to, um, one of the guys in our group who’s fantastic guy. And, um, And at one point, so, so anyway, I was talking about power and, and one of the guys was like, well, I don’t, I don’t really see power.
[00:26:35] Julie: I don’t need. And I’m like, you have it, whether you realize it and you have it. And what was huge is that one of the other guys that sort of a leader was a leader was able to say what she’s talking about is real. Everybody has power. This is really important. And he was quite frankly, somebody with a lot of power in that group because he has a lot of trust, used to be a pastor.
[00:26:57] Julie: Um, and for him to acknowledge that for the rest of us was huge. And then this, this other guy, I mean, he said at one point, Oh, well, you know, so and so’s holding the marker right now and he has power, doesn’t he? And I was like, yes, you’re getting it. That’s it. That’s it. Thank you. Because he’s like, you just reframed what we said and I wouldn’t have reframed it that way.
[00:27:22] Julie: Like I wouldn’t. And I’m like, yes, exactly. It’s like, and it was like, it was like the light bulbs were going on and people were starting to get it. Um, and then another key, key moment was when one of the women who, you know, wasn’t, you know, from our church where we experienced stuff, who said, can you, can you tell me how that, how that felt for you when we used to have leaders?
[00:27:46] Julie: And then for people to be able to express that. And people listened and it was like, and I was able to hear from this guy who felt like he was, he had a straight jacket, you know, because he, he like wants to use his, his initiative. Like he, he. You know, and God’s given that to him. It’s a good thing, you know.
[00:28:07] Julie: And all I can say is it was just an incredible experience, an incredible moment, but it would not have happened if, and now I’m going to get kind of, it wouldn’t have happened if people cared more about the mission than the people. And they didn’t realize the people are the mission. This is Jesus work. He doesn’t care about your five year plan.
[00:28:41] Julie: He doesn’t care about your ego and the big, you know, plans that you have and things you can do. What he cares is whether you’ll lay your life down for the sheep. That’s what shepherds do. And what I saw in, in our group was the willingness to, for people that have shepherding gifts to lay down their, you know, not literally their lives, but in a way their lives, their, their dreams, their hopes or visions, everything to love another and how that created so much love and trust, you know, in our group.
[00:29:22] Julie: And we’re still like trying to figure this out, but yeah, it was, it was hugely, it just so, so important. But I thought how many churches are willing to do that, are willing to, to sit in the pain, are willing to listen. And I’m, I’m curious as you go in now, there’s so much of your work has become with ReStory is, is education and going into these churches.
[00:29:52] Julie: You know, normally when this happens, And you told me there’s a, there’s a name for pastors that come in. It’s the afterpastor. Afterpastor.
[00:30:00] Kayleigh: Yes. The afterpastor.
[00:30:02] Julie: How many times does the afterpastor get it? And does he do that?
[00:30:07] Kayleigh: So the problem is, and I can tell you, cause I have an MDiv. I went, I did all the seminary.
[00:30:11] Kayleigh: I’m ordained. We don’t get trained in that. Um, so, and there is, um, like you said, so you use this guy as an example who has the clear. Initiative gifts. So they’re what would be called kind of the Apostle, um, evangelist gifts in like the pastoral gift assessment kind of deal. You’ve got the Apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher.
[00:30:34] Kayleigh: And right now there’s a lot of weight kind of being thrown behind the Apostle evangelist as kind of the charismatic leader who can set the vision. And so most of the books on pastoral You know, church health and church are written kind of geared and directed that way. Um, so we’re really missing the fact that when we’re talking about a traumatized church, what you really need is a prophet shepherd.
[00:30:57] Kayleigh: Um, you need somebody who can come in and shepherd the people and care for them well, but also the prophet. The role of the prophet is often to help people make meaning of their suffering. So if you read closely, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, particularly who are two prophets speaking to people in exile, what they’re really doing is helping people make meaning of that suffering.
[00:31:17] Kayleigh: They’re helping people tell their story. They’re, they’re lamenting, they’re crying with them. They’re, they’re asking the hard questions. Um, and they’re able to kind of see between the lines. So prophet, Pastors who have kind of that prophetic gifting are able to see below. They’re able to kind of slow down and hear the actual story beyond the behaviors, right?
[00:31:35] Kayleigh: So the behaviors aren’t telling the whole story, but we need eyes to see that. And so the problem, I would say, is that a lot of well, meaning pastors simply aren’t taught how to do this. And so they’re not given the resources. They’re not given kind of the, um. this like Christian imagination to be able to look at a church and say, okay, what has happened here and what healings take place here?
[00:31:59] Kayleigh: Um, the other problem is, you know, we need to be able to give space. So denominational leaders need to be able to be okay with a church that maybe isn’t going to grow for a few years. And I think that is whether we like it or not. And we can say all day long that we don’t judge a church’s health by its numbers.
[00:32:19] Kayleigh: But at the end of the day, pastors feel this pressure to grow the church, right? To have an attendance that’s growing a budget that’s growing and. And so, and part of it is from a good place, right? We want to reach more people from Jesus, but part of it is just this like cultural pressure that defines success by numbers.
[00:32:36] Kayleigh: And so can we be okay with a church that’s not going to grow for a little while? You know, can we be okay with a church that’s going to take some like intentional time to just heal? And so when you have an established church, um, which is a little bit different than a house church model, it can be. A really weird sacrifice, even for the people who are there, because often what you have is you have a segment of the church who is very eager to move forward and move on and and to grow and to move into its new future, and they can get frustrated with the rest of the church.
[00:33:15] Kayleigh: That kind of seems to need more time. Um, but trauma healing is it’s not linear. And so, you know, you kind of have to constantly Judith Herman identifies like three components of trauma healing. And so it’s safety and naming and remembering and then reconnecting, but they’re not like you finish safety and then you move to this one and then you move to this one.
[00:33:36] Kayleigh: Often you’re kind of going, you’re ebbing and flowing between them, right? Because you can achieve safety and then start to feel like, okay, now I can name it. And then something can trigger you and make you feel unsafe again. And so you’re now you’re back here. And so, um, um, Our churches need to realize that this healing process is going to take time, and collective trauma is complicated because you have individuals who are going to move through it.
[00:33:57] Kayleigh: So you’re going to have people who are going to feel really safe, and they’re going to feel ready to name, and others who aren’t. And so you have to be able to mitigate that and navigate that. And our pastors just aren’t simply trained in this. And so what I see happening a lot is I’ll do these trainings and I’ll have somebody come up to me afterwards and go, Oh my goodness, I was an after pastor and I had no idea that was a thing.
[00:34:18] Kayleigh: And they’re like, you just gave so much language to my experience. And you know, and now I understand why they seem to be attacking me. They weren’t really attacking me. They just don’t trust the office of the pastor. And I represent the office of the pastor. Okay. And so sometimes they take that personally again, it becomes like these theological issues.
[00:34:38] Kayleigh: And so helping pastors understand the collective trauma and being able to really just take the time to ask those important questions and to increase not only their own margin for suffering, but to increase a congregations margin for suffering. You know, to go, it’s going to be, we can sit in this pain.
[00:34:58] Kayleigh: It’s going to be uncomfortable, but it’s going to be important, you know, learning how to lament, learning how to mourn. All of these things are things that often we’re just not trained well enough in, um, as pastors. And so therefore our congregations aren’t trained in them either. You know, they don’t have margin for suffering either.
[00:35:14] Kayleigh: Um, and so we need to be able to equip our pastors to do that. Um, and then equip the congregations to be able to do that as well.
[00:35:20] Julie: So good. And I’m so glad you’re doing that. I will say when I first started this work, um, I was not trauma informed. I didn’t know anything about trauma really. And I didn’t even, you know, I was just a reporter reporting on corruption and then it turned into abuse in the church.
[00:35:38] Julie: And I started interfacing with a lot of abuse victims. who were traumatized. And I think back, um, and, and really, I’ve said this before, but survivors have been my greatest teachers by far, like just listening to them and learning from them. But really from day one, you know, it’s loving people, right? It really, it like, if you love and if you empathize, which You know, some people think it’s a sin, um, just cannot, um, but if you do that and, and that’s what, you know, even as I’m thinking about, um, within our own, our own house church, there were people who weren’t trained, but they did instinctively the right things because they loved.
[00:36:28] Julie: You know, and it just reminds me, I mean, it really does come down to, they will know you are Christians by your love. You know, how do we know love? Like Christ laid down his life for us. He is our model of love and, and somehow, you know, like you said, the, in the church today we’ve, we’ve exalted the, um, what did you say?
[00:36:49] Julie: The apostle evangelist? The apostle evangelist. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, we’ve exalted that person, um, you know, And I think we’ve forgotten how to love. And too many of these pastors don’t know how to love. They just don’t know how to love. And it’s, it’s tragic. Because they’re supposed to be I mean, the old school models, they were shepherds, you know, like you said, like we need apostles, we need evangelists.
[00:37:16] Julie: But usually the person who was leading the church per se, the apostles and evangelists would often end up in parachurch organizations. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong. I think the church needs all of those things. Um, and, uh, But yeah, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve left that behind, sadly. And there’s nothing sexy about being a shepherd.
[00:37:37] Kayleigh: Yeah, no, I, all, all of the Apostle, I mean that, well, the whole thing is needed, um, and it’s most beautiful when we just work together, and, and when they can respond to each other. So, I mean, me and you’re an example in your house, you’re a visiting example of this. You can’t, even if just listening, you have some clear Apostle evangelists in your group, right?
[00:37:54] Kayleigh: I mean, Um, right? And so you have these people wired for that, and yet they’re able to, to learn and respond to some of the people in the group who have more of those prophet shepherd tendencies. And so I think that that’s really what, and that’s loving, right? So we should go back. It’s just loving one another and learning from one another.
[00:38:17] Kayleigh: And knowing when to lean into certain giftings and to learn from others giftings. This is why it’s the body of Christ. And so when a component of the body of Christ is left out, we can’t be who God’s called us to be. And so when we neglect the role of the shepherd and neglect the role of the prophet or minimize them, or see them as secondary, then we’re not going to do called us to be.
[00:38:44] Kayleigh: You know, we may need all of it to come together to do what God has called us to do. God is working in this church. He’s worked all through this church. He has established it and called it, and He’s going to use it. But we need to be learning how He has built it and how He framed it. For me to love one another and not elevate one gifting above another.
[00:39:07] Julie: And it’s interesting too, you mentioned the office of the pastor. Um, I know as we were discussing some of this, we have one guy who’s very, I mean, actually our entire group, and I think this is probably why we’ve been able to navigate some of this. It’s it’s a really spiritually mature group. A lot of people.
[00:39:26] Julie: who have been in leadership, um, which sometimes you get a lot of leaders together and it can be, you know, but this hasn’t been that way because I think people really do love the Lord. Um, and they love each other. Um, but one of the things that was brought up, um, is Is the pastor an office or is it a role and have we made it into an office and, and what we realized in the midst of that and I, you know, I, I’m like, well, that’s really interesting.
[00:39:57] Julie: I would like to study that. And I find there, there’s a curiosity when you talk compassionate curiosity, I think there’s also a curiosity in, in people who have been through this kind of trauma. There’s a curiosity in, okay, what, what did we do? that we did because everybody said that’s how we’re supposed to do it.
[00:40:18] Kayleigh: Yeah.
[00:40:18] Julie: Yeah. Do I really have that conviction? Could I really argue it from scripture? Is this even right? And so I find even in our group, there is a, there is a, um, there’s a curiosity and maybe this is because we’re coming through and we’re in, you know, I think a later stage of healing is that now we’re like really curious about what should we be?
[00:40:44] Julie: Yes. Yes. What should we be, like, we, we want to dig into what, what is a church, what should it really be, and what, why, how could we be different? Of course, always realizing that you can have the perfect structure and still have disaster. Um, it really does come down to the character of the people and, and that, but, but yeah, there’s a real, Curiosity of, of sort of, um, digging, digging into that.
[00:41:10] Julie: And, and let me just, I can ask you, and, and maybe this will be a rabbit trail, maybe we’ll edit it out. I don’t know. Um, , but, but I am curious what do, what do you think of that idea that the, the pastorate may be a role that we’ve made into an office and maybe that could be part of the problem?
[00:41:27] Kayleigh: I think that’s a lot of it.
[00:41:28] Kayleigh: Um, because when we turn the, the pastorate into an office, we can lose the priesthood of all believers. So that I think is often what happens is that, um, you create this pastoral role where now all of the ministry falls on to the pastor. And so instead of the pastor’s role being to equip the saints for the ministry, which is what scripture says, the scripture describes a pastor as equipping the saints for the ministry.
[00:41:56] Kayleigh: Now the pastor is doing the ministry, right? There’s, there’s just all of this pressure on the pastor. And that’s, that’s where I think we start to see this. The shift from the pastor being the one who is, you know, encouraging and equipping and edifying and, you know, calling up everybody to live into their role as the body of Christ where we’ve seen.
[00:42:19] Kayleigh: You know, I have a soft spot for pastors. Again, I’m like, they’re all my relatives are them. I love pastors and I know some really beautiful ones who get into ministry because that’s exactly what they want to do. And so what has often happened though, is that the, the ways of our culture have begun to inform how the church operates.
[00:42:40] Kayleigh: And so we saw this, you know, when, when the church started to employ business In kind of the church growth movement. So it’s like, okay, well, who knows how to grow things? Business people know how to grow things. Okay. Well, what are they doing? Right. And so now that the pastor is like the CEO, people choose their churches based on the pastor’s sermon, right?
[00:43:00] Kayleigh: Well, I like how this pastor preaches. So I’m going to go to that church. Um, so some of it is. So I would say that not all of it is pastors who have like that egotistical thing within them at the beginning. Some of it is that we know that those patterns exist. But some of these men and women are genuinely just love the Lord’s people and then get into these roles where they’re all of a sudden like, wait, I, Why, why is it about me and others, this pressure to preach better sermons and the person down the road or, you know, run the programs and do all of these things instead of equipping the people to do the work of God.
[00:43:38] Kayleigh: And so I think it’s, it’s about, and right, I think it’s happened internally in our churches, but I also think there’s this outward societal pressure that has shifted the pastor from this shepherding role to the CEO office. Um, And finding the, like, middle ground, right? So again, like, we can swing the pendulum one way and not have pastors.
[00:44:05] Kayleigh: Or we can swing the pendulum the other way and have pastors at the center of everything. But is there a way of finding, kind of, this middle ground where people who are fairly calm and gifted and anointed by God to do rich shepherding can do it in a way that is Zen sitting that church that is equal famous saint that is calling the body of Christ to be what it is called be.
[00:44:27] Kayleigh: And I guess I’m, I’m constantly over optimistic and so I’m convinced that there’s gotta be a way , that we can get to a place where pastors can live out of their giftings and live by their callings and live out of their long dreams in such a way. That leads to the flourishing health of the church and not to its destruction.
[00:44:45] Julie: Yes. And, and I think if it’s working properly, that absolutely should be there. They should be a gift to the church. Um, and, and sadly we just, we haven’t seen enough of that, but that is, that is, I think the model. Um, let’s talk specifically, and we have talked, or we might not have named it, um, but some of the results of this collective trauma.
[00:45:08] Julie: in a congregation. Um, let’s, let’s name some of the things. These are ways that this can, that this can play itself out.
[00:45:17] Kayleigh: Sure. So when we’re talking about congregational collective trauma, one of the main results that we’ve talked about kind of in a roundabout way is this lack of trust that can happen within the congregation.
[00:45:27] Kayleigh: And this can be twofold. We can talk about the lack of trust for the leadership, but it all also can be lack of trust. Just, In the congregation itself, um, this often happens, particularly if we’re looking at clergy misconduct that maybe wasn’t as widespread. So I think this is some of what you’ve kind of talked about with Willow Creek a little bit, and I’m, I wasn’t in that situation, but I’ve seen it other places where, you know, in our system, the denominational leadership removes a pastor.
[00:45:56] Kayleigh: And so what can happen in a system like that is that denominational leadership becomes aware of abuse. They act on the abuse by removing the pastor. And what you have happening is kind of this, um, Betrayal trauma or this, you know, bias against believing. And so because the idea that their clergy person who they have loved and trusted, you know, shepherd them could possibly do something that atrocious.
[00:46:24] Kayleigh: That idea is too devastating for them to internalize. So it feels safer to their bodies to deny it. And so what can happen is you can have a fraction of the church. that thinks it’s, you know, all made up and that there’s no truth to it. And they began to blame the denominational leadership as the bad guys or that bad reporter that, you know, the
[00:46:45] Julie: gossip monger out there.
[00:46:47] Julie: It’s so bad.
[00:46:48] Kayleigh: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you have this split. Now, sometimes it literally splits and people will leave. Um, but sometimes they don’t and they all stay. And so you have these fractions of people who believe different things about what happened. And so now there’s, there’s a lack of shared identity.
[00:47:08] Kayleigh: So I would say one of the key components of collective trauma in a congregation is this mistrust, which is often connected to a lack of shared identity. And so they can’t really figure out who they are together. What does it mean for us to be a community to get there? Um, and so trauma begins to write their story.
[00:47:27] Kayleigh: And so when we talk about the embodiment of trauma, one of the ways that that works in individuals, and this is like a mini neuroscience lesson that many of your listeners are probably aware of, because I think you have a very trauma informed audience. Audience, but, um, you know, that it, it makes us react out of those fight, flight, or freeze responses.
[00:47:46] Kayleigh: And so that happens individually, right? So something triggers us and all of a sudden we’re at our cortisol is raised. We’re acting out of the, uh, you know, those flight flight places that happens communally too. So a community gets triggered by, you know, a pastor again, having what they think is just a creative idea, you know, but maybe it triggers that time that that pastor.
[00:48:09] Kayleigh: Had a creative idea that was, you know, and ran with it without talking to anybody and just like wield the control and manipulated people. And now, all of a sudden, this pastor who thinks they just have this innocent, creative idea is now seen as manipulative. And what are they going to try to do behind our backs?
[00:48:27] Kayleigh: And what are they going to try? And, and. What are they going to take from us? Right? And so trauma, trauma takes from people. And so now they’re living kind of out of this perpetual perceived fear, perceived threat, that something else is going to be lost. And so when you have a congregation that’s constantly operating out of, you know, this fight, flight, or freeze response.
[00:48:52] Kayleigh: Collectively, I mean, how can we expect them to live out the mission that God has given them? Um, you know, they’re not, they’re not there. They’re not able to, um, they’re not able to relate to one another in a healthy way. And so we, we see a lack of kind of intimate relationships in these congregations, right?
[00:49:09] Kayleigh: Because so the Deb Dana, who has helped people really understand the polyvagal theory, when we’re talking about, um, trauma talks about your, your, um, Nervous system, your autonomic nervous system is kind of being like a three rung ladder. And so in this three rung ladder, you have the top rung being your ventral bagel state, which is where you can engage with people in safe and healthy ways.
[00:49:32] Kayleigh: And then you move down into kind of your sympathetic nervous system. And this is where you’re in that fight flight freeze and then dorsal bagels at the bottom. And in those two middle and bottom, you can’t build these deep relationships. And again, deep relationships are what make a church a church. And so if you have a congregation that’s stuck in these middle to bottom rungs of this ladder, they’re, they’re fight, flight, freeze, or they’re withdrawing from one another.
[00:49:54] Kayleigh: You’re, you’re losing the intimacy, the vulnerability, the safety of these congregations to build those kinds of relationships. And so I would say that, that distrust, that lack of shared identity and that inability to build deeper kind of relationships are three kind of key components of what we’re seeing in congregations who are carrying this collective trauma.
[00:50:16] Julie: And yet, if you work through that together, like I will say right now, I feel a great deal of affection for, for everyone. Uh, in our house tours because we went through that chaos together, but also it was, it was an opportunity to see love and people lay down their lives for each other. So to, to be able to see, I mean, you begin writing a new story instead of that old story that’s been so dominant, you know, that you have to tell, you have to work through.
[00:50:50] Julie: Yeah, you do. And, and, and you have, you do. I love where you say, you know, people need to, to hear that from you. Yeah. I think that’s really, really important for people to have a safe place. But then at the same time, you can’t, you don’t want to live the rest of your life there. You don’t want that to define, define you.
[00:51:09] Julie: Um, and that’s, that’s what’s beautiful though, is if you work through it together, now you, you’ve got a new story, right? You’ve got, you’ve got Dodd doing something beautiful. Um, among you and, and that’s what he does.
[00:51:23] Kayleigh: That’s why we call our organization Restory. Um, it is a word used in trauma theory and in reconciliation studies to talk about what communities who have experienced a lot of violence have to do is they have to get to a place where they’re able to, it’s exactly what you’re talking about with your house churches doing is you guys have kind of come to a place where you’re able to ask the question, who do we want to be now?
[00:51:45] Kayleigh: And this is this process of restorying. And so what trauma does is in many ways, for a while, it tries to write our stories. And for a while, it kind of has, because of the way that it’s embodied, we kind of, it has to, right? Like we have to process like, okay, I’m reacting to this. trigger because of this trauma that’s happened.
[00:52:05] Kayleigh: So how do I work through that? You know, how do I name that? How do I begin to tell that story? And so we, and we have to tell the story, right? Because I mean, trauma theory has been the dialectic of traumas, but Judith Herman talks about is it’s very unspeakable because it’s horrific, but it has to be spoken to be healed.
[00:52:22] Kayleigh: Right. And so with this trauma, it can be hard to speak initially. But it needs to be spoken to be healed. But once we’ve done that, once we begin to loosen the control that trauma has on us. Once we’re able to speak it out loud, and then we can get to a place individually and communally where we can start to ask ourselves, Who do we want to be?
[00:52:45] Kayleigh: And who has God called us to be? And no, things are not going to be the way they were before the trauma happened. I think that’s the other thing that happens in churches is there’s a lot of misconception. That healing means restoring everything to the way it was before. And when that doesn’t happen, there’s this question of, well, well, did we, did we heal?
[00:53:06] Kayleigh: And we have to remember that we’re never going back to the way it was before the trauma happened. But we can begin to imagine what it can look like now. Once we begin to integrate the suffering into our story, and we begin to ask those helpful questions, and we take away the trauma’s control, now we can ask, who do we want to be?
[00:53:24] Kayleigh: And we can begin to write a new beautiful story that can be healing for many others.
[00:53:29] Julie: A friend of mine who has been through unspeakable trauma, I love when she talks about her husband, because they went through this together, and she often says, he’s like an aged fine wine. You know, and I love that because to me, no, you’re not going back to who you were, but in many ways who you were was a little naive, little starry eyed, a little, you know, and, and once you’ve been through these sorts of things, it is kind of like an aged fine wine.
[00:54:01] Julie: You have, you’re, you’re aged, but hopefully in a beautiful way. And, you know, I, I think you’re way more compassionate. Once you’ve gone through this, you’re way more able to see another person who’s traumatized and And to, you know, reach out to that person, to love that person, to care for that person. And so it’s a beautiful restoring.
[00:54:26] Julie: And we could talk about this for a very long time. And we will continue this discussion at Restore,
[00:54:33] Kayleigh: um, because
[00:54:34] Julie: you’re going to be at the conference and that was part of our original discussions. So folks, if you wanna talk more to Kaleigh , come to Restore. I, I’m, I’m gonna fit you in somehow because , I’m gonna be there.
[00:54:46] Julie: you’re gonna be there. But do you just have a wealth of, uh, I think research and insights that I think will really, really be powerful? And I’m waiting for you to write your book because it needs to be written. Um, but I’m working on it. , thank you for, for taking the time and for, um, just loving the body.
[00:55:07] Julie: And in the way that you have, I appreciate it.
[00:55:09] Kayleigh: Well, thank you. Because, you know, when I heard about your work and your tagline, you know, reporting the truth, but restoring the church, you know, I was just so drawn in because that’s what we need. The church is worth it. The church is beautiful and she is worth taking the time to restore.
[00:55:24] Kayleigh: And I’m so thankful for the work that you’re doing to make sure that that that happens.
[00:55:28] Julie: Thank you. Well, thanks so much for listening to the Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’ve appreciated this podcast and our investigative journalism, would you please consider donating to the Roy’s report to support our ongoing work?
[00:55:47] Julie: As I’ve often said, we don’t have advertisers or many large donors. We mainly have you. The people who care about our mission of reporting the truth and restoring the church. So if you’d like to help us out, just go to Julie Roy’s spelled R O Y S dot com slash donate. That’s Julie Roy’s dot com slash donate.
[00:56:07] Julie: Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to the Roy’s report on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content.
[00:56:29] Julie: Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you are blessed and encouraged.
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/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-stacked .elementor-drop-cap{background-color:#69727d;color:#fff}.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-framed .elementor-drop-cap{color:#69727d;border:3px solid;background-color:transparent}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap{margin-top:8px}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap-letter{width:1em;height:1em}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap{float:left;text-align:center;line-height:1;font-size:50px}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap-letter{display:inline-block}If you’re like a lot of folks, you look put together on the outside. But inside, there’s a constant churn of unprocessed shame, anger, or grief. Little by little, you’re becoming disconnected from who you really are.
But professor, author and licensed therapist, Chuck DeGroat, says it doesn’t have to be this way.
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/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-video .elementor-widget-container{overflow:hidden;transform:translateZ(0)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{height:100%;width:100%;display:flex;border:none;background-color:#000}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-open-inline .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0;background-size:cover;background-position:50%}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{cursor:pointer;text-align:center}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay:hover .elementor-custom-embed-play i{opacity:1}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{display:block;width:100%;aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio);-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover;-o-object-position:center center;object-position:center center}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .e-hosted-video .elementor-video{-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover}.e-con-inner.elementor-widget-video,.e-con.elementor-widget-video{width:var(--container-widget-width);--flex-grow:var(--container-widget-flex-grow)}Normally, people think of grooming as the manipulative process a sexual predator uses to lure his unsuspecting prey.
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/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-video .elementor-widget-container{overflow:hidden;transform:translateZ(0)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{height:100%;width:100%;display:flex;border:none;background-color:#000}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-open-inline .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0;background-size:cover;background-position:50%}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{cursor:pointer;text-align:center}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay:hover .elementor-custom-embed-play i{opacity:1}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{display:block;width:100%;aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio);-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover;-o-object-position:center center;object-position:center center}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .e-hosted-video .elementor-video{-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover}.e-con-inner.elementor-widget-video,.e-con.elementor-widget-video{width:var(--container-widget-width);--flex-grow:var(--container-widget-flex-grow)}/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-stacked .elementor-drop-cap{background-color:#69727d;color:#fff}.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-framed .elementor-drop-cap{color:#69727d;border:3px solid;background-color:transparent}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap{margin-top:8px}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap-letter{width:1em;height:1em}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap{float:left;text-align:center;line-height:1;font-size:50px}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap-letter{display:inline-block}Christian nationalism has taken over large swaths of the United States.
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/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-video .elementor-widget-container{overflow:hidden;transform:translateZ(0)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{height:100%;width:100%;display:flex;border:none;background-color:#000}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-open-inline .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0;background-size:cover;background-position:50%}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{cursor:pointer;text-align:center}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay:hover .elementor-custom-embed-play i{opacity:1}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{display:block;width:100%;aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio);-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover;-o-object-position:center center;object-position:center center}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .e-hosted-video .elementor-video{-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover}.e-con-inner.elementor-widget-video,.e-con.elementor-widget-video{width:var(--container-widget-width);--flex-grow:var(--container-widget-flex-grow)}/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-stacked .elementor-drop-cap{background-color:#69727d;color:#fff}.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-framed .elementor-drop-cap{color:#69727d;border:3px solid;background-color:transparent}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap{margin-top:8px}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap-letter{width:1em;height:1em}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap{float:left;text-align:center;line-height:1;font-size:50px}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap-letter{display:inline-block}Ten years ago, Sharon Clements’ world turned upside down.
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/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-video .elementor-widget-container{overflow:hidden;transform:translateZ(0)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{height:100%;width:100%;display:flex;border:none;background-color:#000}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-open-inline .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0;background-size:cover;background-position:50%}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{cursor:pointer;text-align:center}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay:hover .elementor-custom-embed-play i{opacity:1}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{display:block;width:100%;aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio);-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover;-o-object-position:center center;object-position:center center}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .e-hosted-video .elementor-video{-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover}.e-con-inner.elementor-widget-video,.e-con.elementor-widget-video{width:var(--container-widget-width);--flex-grow:var(--container-widget-flex-grow)}/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-stacked .elementor-drop-cap{background-color:#69727d;color:#fff}.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-framed .elementor-drop-cap{color:#69727d;border:3px solid;background-color:transparent}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap{margin-top:8px}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap-letter{width:1em;height:1em}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap{float:left;text-align:center;line-height:1;font-size:50px}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap-letter{display:inline-block}The American church is in crisis.
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/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-video .elementor-widget-container{overflow:hidden;transform:translateZ(0)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{height:100%;width:100%;display:flex;border:none;background-color:#000}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-open-inline .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0;background-size:cover;background-position:50%}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{cursor:pointer;text-align:center}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay:hover .elementor-custom-embed-play i{opacity:1}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{display:block;width:100%;aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio);-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover;-o-object-position:center center;object-position:center center}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .e-hosted-video .elementor-video{-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover}.e-con-inner.elementor-widget-video,.e-con.elementor-widget-video{width:var(--container-widget-width);--flex-grow:var(--container-widget-flex-grow)}/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-stacked .elementor-drop-cap{background-color:#69727d;color:#fff}.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-framed .elementor-drop-cap{color:#69727d;border:3px solid;background-color:transparent}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap{margin-top:8px}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap-letter{width:1em;height:1em}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap{float:left;text-align:center;line-height:1;font-size:50px}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap-letter{display:inline-block}For more than two decades, Patrick and Mary DeMuth faithfully served as lay leaders at Lakepointe Church, a megachurch in the Dallas/Fort Worth area pastored by Josh Howerton.
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/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-video .elementor-widget-container{overflow:hidden;transform:translateZ(0)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{height:100%;width:100%;display:flex;border:none;background-color:#000}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-open-inline .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0;background-size:cover;background-position:50%}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{cursor:pointer;text-align:center}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay:hover .elementor-custom-embed-play i{opacity:1}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{display:block;width:100%;aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio);-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover;-o-object-position:center center;object-position:center center}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .e-hosted-video .elementor-video{-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover}.e-con-inner.elementor-widget-video,.e-con.elementor-widget-video{width:var(--container-widget-width);--flex-grow:var(--container-widget-flex-grow)}/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-stacked .elementor-drop-cap{background-color:#69727d;color:#fff}.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-framed .elementor-drop-cap{color:#69727d;border:3px solid;background-color:transparent}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap{margin-top:8px}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap-letter{width:1em;height:1em}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap{float:left;text-align:center;line-height:1;font-size:50px}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap-letter{display:inline-block}According to the Houston Chronicle, hundreds have recently left Lakepointe Church—Josh Howerton’s prominent megachurch in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.
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/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-video .elementor-widget-container{overflow:hidden;transform:translateZ(0)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{height:100%;width:100%;display:flex;border:none;background-color:#000}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-open-inline .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0;background-size:cover;background-position:50%}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{cursor:pointer;text-align:center}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay:hover .elementor-custom-embed-play i{opacity:1}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{display:block;width:100%;aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio);-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover;-o-object-position:center center;object-position:center center}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .e-hosted-video .elementor-video{-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover}.e-con-inner.elementor-widget-video,.e-con.elementor-widget-video{width:var(--container-widget-width);--flex-grow:var(--container-widget-flex-grow)}/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-stacked .elementor-drop-cap{background-color:#69727d;color:#fff}.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-framed .elementor-drop-cap{color:#69727d;border:3px solid;background-color:transparent}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap{margin-top:8px}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap-letter{width:1em;height:1em}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap{float:left;text-align:center;line-height:1;font-size:50px}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap-letter{display:inline-block}Nancy French was once a darling of the GOP—and ghostwrote books, speeches, and articles for some of the leading conservative politicians.
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https://youtu.be/ok7qRXGZYroFor nearly two decades, one woman stood up to the Southern Baptist Convention, forcing it to face its sex abuse crisis. She was gaslit, maligned, and threatened with legal action. But she didn’t back down. And on this edition of The Roys Report, you’ll hear her story.
Joining host Julie Roys is Christa Brown, an abuse survivor who overcame the odds in pursuit of justice.
As a 16-year-old girl, Christa was repeatedly raped by the youth pastor at her Southern Baptist Church. And when she told the music minister at her church what had happened, he told her never to speak of it.
For 35 years, Christa kept silent, accepting the shame that rightly belonged to her rapist. But in the early 2000s, Christa broke her silence—and confronted her childhood church with what had happened. She thought they would do the right thing. But instead, they attacked her.
That began a nearly 20-year battle with the Southern Baptist Convention—and led to two major investigations, showing that hundreds of Baptist leaders and volunteers had sexually abused congregants. She recounts it all in detail in her just released memoir, Baptistland.
Christa found her voice, rising above her past trauma to become a leading voice in the national and global abuse survivor community. She speaks with unrelenting honesty about the patterns of abuse in evangelical churches—and the necessary steps to bring reform.
GuestsChrista BrownNamed as one of the "top 10 religion newsmakers" of 2022, Christa Brown has persisted for two decades in working to peel back the truth about clergy sex abuse and coverups in the nation's largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention. As one of the first to go public with substantiated child molestation allegations against a Baptist minister—and documentation that others knew—she has consistently demanded reforms to make other kids and congregants safer. She is the author of Baptistland and This Little Light: Beyond a Baptist Preacher Predator and His Gang. Christa, who is retired appellate attorney, a mom, and a grandma, lives with her husband in Colorado.
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/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-video .elementor-widget-container{overflow:hidden;transform:translateZ(0)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio)}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{height:100%;width:100%;display:flex;border:none;background-color:#000}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper iframe,.elementor-widget-video .elementor-wrapper video{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-open-inline .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0;background-size:cover;background-position:50%}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{cursor:pointer;text-align:center}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay:hover .elementor-custom-embed-play i{opacity:1}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{display:block;width:100%;aspect-ratio:var(--video-aspect-ratio);-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover;-o-object-position:center center;object-position:center center}@supports not (aspect-ratio:1/1){.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay{position:relative;overflow:hidden;height:0;padding-bottom:calc(100% / var(--video-aspect-ratio))}.elementor-widget-video .elementor-custom-embed-image-overlay img{position:absolute;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;left:0}}.elementor-widget-video .e-hosted-video .elementor-video{-o-object-fit:cover;object-fit:cover}.e-con-inner.elementor-widget-video,.e-con.elementor-widget-video{width:var(--container-widget-width);--flex-grow:var(--container-widget-flex-grow)}/! elementor - v3.17.0 - 25-10-2023 /.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-stacked .elementor-drop-cap{background-color:#69727d;color:#fff}.elementor-widget-text-editor.elementor-drop-cap-view-framed .elementor-drop-cap{color:#69727d;border:3px solid;background-color:transparent}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap{margin-top:8px}.elementor-widget-text-editor:not(.elementor-drop-cap-view-default) .elementor-drop-cap-letter{width:1em;height:1em}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap{float:left;text-align:center;line-height:1;font-size:50px}.elementor-widget-text-editor .elementor-drop-cap-letter{display:inline-block}Research shows more than 95% of women who report being raped are telling the truth.
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The church should be a place of healing and comfort. But for far too many, it’s a place of abuse and harm.
As a child, Ryan George was profoundly hurt in a fundamentalist church, pastored by his abusive father. But years later, Ryan found a loving and gracious church. And through that church, he experienced transformation and healing.
In this edition of The Roys Report, Ryan George, author of Hurt and Healed by the Church, exposes both the worst and the best that the church can be.
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Can a church that’s had a history of being toxic transform its culture and become truly healthy? Or, are churches like this doomed to repeat their history, despite efforts to change?
This edition of The Roys Report features a talk from our recent Restore Conference by Laura Barringer. Laura and her father, theologian Scot McKnight, co-authored two best-selling books on identifying toxic church cultures and reforming them.
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What does it take to disqualify someone from ministry? An affair? Spiritual abuse? Sexual abuse? Abuse of power? Or, as some have claimed, can just about anyone be restored to ministry because “God is gracious” and “His call is irrevocable”?
This edition of The Roys Report takes a deep dive into the Scriptures—particularly, those specific verses used to justify restoring pastors to ministry who have fallen in egregious ways.
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A bombshell report on the alleged “affair” between popular worship leaders Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards published by The Roys Report sent shock waves through the charismatic Christian community. How could two people, who ushered so many into the presence of God, sin in such an egregious way?
But were they both consensual partners? Or, was Kevin, an admitted sexual predator, the abuser?
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Once you’ve experienced trauma, how do you heal? What should you look for in a counselor? What kind of therapy is right for you? And how do you take care of yourself as you begin your healing journey?
In this edition of The Roys Report, discover answers to these questions and more in an in-depth talk from professional psychologist, Dr.
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Everything rises or falls on leadership. Ever heard that line? Think about what it means when applied to a pastor’s role in a church. What about the priesthood of all believers? And where is Jesus in that equation?
In this edition of The Roys Report, veteran church planter and pastor, Lance Ford, challenges popular views of leadership, showing how they’re the opposite of what Scripture teaches.
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As a Christian in Iran, Naghmeh Panahi was arrested numerous times—and once even had a gun pointed at her head. But as awful as that was, Naghmeh says she endured something far worse when she began speaking out about abuse from her husband. It was then that she faced persecution—not from radical Muslims, but from Christians.
In this edition of The Roys Report, you’re going to hear Julie’s powerful interview at the Restore Conference with Naghmeh Panahi.
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Why can’t people get over talking about race?
Ever heard that line? Or, how about: We live in a post-racial world. We’ve even had a black president!
If racism doesn’t exist, then we don’t have to deal with it. Yet racism, sadly, is alive and well—not just in our culture, but within the church.
On this edition of The Roys Report (TRR), Dr.
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Men need sex. And it’s their wives’ job to give it to them—unconditionally, whenever they want it, or these husbands will come under Satanic attack.
Stunningly, that’s the message contained in many Christian marriage books. Yet, research shows that instead of increasing intimacy in marriages, messages like these are promoting abuse.
In this edition of The Roys Report, featuring a talk from our recent Restore Conference, author Sheila Wray Gregoire provides eye-opening insights based on her and her team’s extensive research on evangelicalism and sex.
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America is experiencing the largest and fastest religious shift in its history—greater than the First and the Second Great Awakening and every revival in the U.S. combined. But instead of a massive shift into the church, what we’re seeing is a mass exodus.
In this edition of The Roys Report, you’ll hear from Michael Graham, co-author of The Great DeChurching: Who’s Leaving, Why Are They Going, and What Will It Take to Bring Them Back.
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Why is church after church succumbing to corruption and false doctrine? Yes, it’s the result of greed, immorality, and a lust for power. But we’ve had those vices forever. So, why is there an epidemic of corruption in the church now?
Author, pastor, and church planter, Lance Ford, who’s worked inside pastor training networks for decades, answers that question with a line reminiscent of Bill Clinton’s first presidential campaign motto: “It’s the system, stupid.” Lance explains more in this enlightening edition of The Roys Report, featuring his session from our recent Restore Conference.
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When faced with a scandal, organizations have a choice. They can engage in impression management strategies, designed to obscure the truth, and save their image. Or, they can take the road less traveled. They can humble themselves. They can listen. And they can admit the truth—to themselves and to others.
In this edition of The Roys Report, researcher, author, and abuse survivor advocate, Wade Mullen, speaks on how to manage a crisis in a session from the recent Restore Conference.
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How did loving your enemies—a command of Jesus—suddenly become a sign that you’re “woke”? And why is “owning the libs” now the answer to “What would Jesus do?”
On this edition of The Roys Report, bestselling author and journalist Tim Alberta joins host Julie Roys to explore a disturbing phenomenon in American evangelicalism. Though once evangelicals understood that the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of man were separate, now the two are being combined into an unholy mix.
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Exposing abuse and corruption can be a thankless job. Powerful figures doing wrong often deny and attack those exposing them. And their supporters often join suit—attacking the messenger, rather than holding their leader accountable.
This edition of The Roys Report features a very personal talk from Restore Conference founder and journalist, Julie Roys, delivered at the recent event this past October.
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Clergy sexual abuse is one of the most devastating forms of abuse, impacting almost every area of life. After surviving abuse like that, how do you recover? And after being preyed upon by a powerful church figure, how do you recover your agency, your voice, your life?
This edition of The Roys Report features an unforgettable session from the recent Restore Conference, and one of the most raw and vulnerable talks you’ll ever hear.
When a church is rocked by scandal, how can you tell if an investigation is truly independent—or another attempt to cover up? Experts discuss.
Carson Weitnauer shares his journey from disillusionment to hope, after discovering his hero, Ravi Zacharias, was a fraud.
The authors of ‘A Church Called Tov’ go deeper in ‘Pivot,’ explaining how to transform toxic church cultures into tov ones.
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What are the telltale signs of spiritual abuse? And once you’ve been subjected to it, how do you heal?
On this edition of The Roys Report, we’re rolling out the first of 11 talks from this year’s Restore Conference. This was an amazing gathering of survivors of church hurt and abuse—as well as pastors and Christian leaders wanting to better minister to these survivors.
A woman who blew the whistle on her popular pastor and an anti-bullying author share how to stand up to bullies in the workplace.
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What do you do when you’re being bullied by your Christian employer? Do you take it and simply turn the other cheek? Or, do you confront it, hoping for repentance and justice?
Unfortunately, workplace bullying has become a major issue—not just in secular contexts, but in the church. In this podcast, Julie explores this issue with the whistleblower who exposed Dane Ortlund, Emily Hyland, and anti-bullying expert, Paul Coughlin.
Ortlund is a Chicago-area pastor and author of the best-selling book, Gentle and Lowly. But, according to Emily, he’s not very gentle or lowly; he’s a bully—and a misogynist. And she says, when she complained about Ortlund’s behavior to the elders of Naperville Presbyterian Church, where Emily worked, they fired her.
Since then, Emily has filed a complaint with the Illinois Department of Human Rights, claiming retaliation. Last December, the Department of Human Rights ruled in Emily’s favor and found “substantial evidence” of retaliation by Dane and Naperville Presbyterian. In this podcast, Emily tells her story and updates us on her case. She also shares insights about responding to bullying she gained from her firsthand experience.
Anti-bullying expert Paul Coughlin also contributes to the podcast, sharing advice he’s gained over decades of dealing with bullies. Paul met Emily at last year’s Restore Conference. And Paul has been a source of support and wisdom for Emily throughout her whistleblowing process.If you’ve ever had to deal with a bully—or are dealing with one now.
Guests
Emily HylandEmily Hyland earned her bachelors in Molecular Genetics and Biotechnology before working for the Office of Naval Research in Washington, DC. While there she received a MHSA in Management & Leadership from The George Washington University. She has worked with the US Army and the Office of the Surgeon General, Accenture, GE, and across finance, manufacturing, health services, and information technology. Recently, she was the Director of Operations at Naperville Presbyterian Church in suburban Illinois. She is married and has three children.
Paul CoughlinPaul Coughlin is an author, an international speaker and the founder and president of The Protectors, which is dedicated to helping schools, organizations and communities combat bullying. His books include No More Christian Nice Guy, Raising Bully-Proof Kids and 5 Secrets Great Dads Know. Paul and his wife, Sandy, reside in central Oregon and have three teenage children. Learn more about Paul and his organization at www.theprotectors.org. Show Transcript
SPEAKERSJULIE ROYS, EMILY HYLAND, PAUL COUGHLIN
JULIE ROYS 00:04What do you do when you’re being bullied by your Christian employer? Do you take it and simply turn the other cheek? Or do you confront it, hoping for repentance and justice? Welcome to the Roys report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys and joining me on this episode are Emily Hyland and Paul Coughlin. As you may remember, Emily is the whistleblower who filed a complaint with the Illinois Department of Human Rights concerning a well-known Chicago area pastor, Dane Ortlund. Ortlund is the author of the best-selling book, Gentle and Lowly. But according to Emily, he’s not very gentle or lowly. He’s a bully and a misogynist. And she says when she complained about Ortlund’s behavior to the elders of Naperville Presbyterian Church, where Ortlund pastors, they fired her. But last December, the Department of Human Rights ruled in Emily’s favor. It found substantial evidence of retaliation by Dane and Naperville Presbyterian Church in Emily’s firing. And now that case is going to trial. Plus, there have been some additional charges added to that case. So, stay tuned, and you’ll hear all about that.
But also joining me on this podcast is Paul Coughlin. Paul is an expert on bullying and a repeat guest here on The Roys Report. He also was a speaker at last year’s Restore conference. And I know from talking to Emily that she took pages of notes from Paul’s talk, which was super eye opening. And it’s out of that relationship and collaboration between Paul and Emily, that started at Restore, that this podcast was envisioned. I know many of you have experienced bullying in a Christian workplace. I get emails about this all the time. It’s bad enough to be bullied in any workplace. But when it happens at a church or an organization that’s supposed to be Christian, it’s especially painful. So, I’m really looking forward to our podcast today.
But before we dive in, I want to thank our sponsors, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington if you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.com.
Well, again, joining me is the whistleblower in the Dane Ortlund discrimination and retaliation case, Emily Hyland. Emily was the Operations Director at Naperville Presbyterian Church in Naperville, Illinois. But in March 2021, just nine days after complaining of discrimination and bullying to church elders, Emily was abruptly fired. And she has two cases pending right now, one before the Illinois Department of Human Rights, and another with the Illinois Department of Labor. So, Emily, welcome. I’m so glad you could join us.
EMILY HYLAND 03:30Thank you, Julie. And thank you for your continued support and drawing attention to these important issues that men and women face when they’re in a church and employed by one.
JULIE ROYS 03:40Well, it’s my pleasure to do so. And again, also joining us is Paul Coughlin, founder of the anti-bullying group, The Protectors. He’s also the author of a number of best-selling books, including No More Christian Nice Guy and Raising Bullyproof Kids. He’s also worked with the Baltimore Ravens and is an expert witness. So, Paul, welcome back. It’s just so great to be with you again.
PAUL COUGHLIN 04:02Great to be back. It’s always wonderful. And Emily, good to hear your voice.
JULIE ROYS 04:07Well, it’s so cool that the both of you actually met at the Restore conference. And I know that was before any of this became public. It’s before the Illinois Department of Human Rights found substantial evidence of retaliation by the church and Dane Ortlund. But Paul, let me just start with you and ask when you first met Emily, what was your impression of her case and just what she had been through?
PAUL COUGHLIN 04:33Well, you know, you hear a lot of the same things when it comes to people who have been abused either adolescent bullying but then also bullying in the workplace, particularly faith centric areas. And honestly, what you often hear is a good amount of confusion at first. Many times, people who have this confusion going in their minds, they often may take it out on themselves as opposed to really seeing it more clearly, and in seeing it more clearly, it’s not the fault of the target. It is the fault of the bully, and in many cases, the serial bully.
JULIE ROYS 05:09I hear a lot of these stories. And it’s usually Wow, this is so awful. But I’m not expecting justice with the Illinois Department of Human Rights. You hardly ever get a ruling in your favor. Were you surprised when you heard that she had gotten this ruling?
PAUL COUGHLIN 05:24Very much so. I mean, Emily had a substantial case, substantial amount of evidence. And you know that evidence comes from people who, you know, obviously are willing to talk. Do you know how many people are not willing to talk? They know the score, but for a few fundamental reasons, they remain quiet, probably because they’re worried that they’ll be next. So, we have a substantial case, where chances are few people really spoke up.
JULIE ROYS 05:50And again, that case is pending. And towards the end of this podcast, Emily, I’m going to have you update us on the latest developments, because there are some really important ones there. But let’s back up to your story, and what happened to you, Emily, for those who haven’t read the news reports. I mean, it came out in December, even if you did read the report, you might be a little bit rusty on what happened. Would you give us the cliff notes of what happened to you, that led you to file this claim with the Illinois Department of Human Rights?
EMILY HYLAND 06:21Well, in some ways, it starts back before 2020 to my time at the church. I had been there since 2006, and Dane joined in 2007. So, for over a decade, we existed as two members of the same church, running into each other, same classes, same age kids. And so, when the former senior pastor left, a search committee was put together, Dane was on it. Two years go by and no senior pastor candidate. Well, then it’s announced, Dane is going to be the senior pastor candidate. And by that time, I was on staff and the director of operations. And I was surprised because he hadn’t been a pastor before. And I knew that the requirements for the job had been five years of pastoring experience. But I was since I knew him, I mean, he wasn’t a stranger. I had no inclinations that this was something that was going to be so catastrophic.
But when he started, things just weren’t right. And they continued to get more wrong as the months went on. And as I started really telling myself, this isn’t what you think, it’s not right. I mean, maybe you’re off, maybe you’re just being a little petty. I had this mindset that was getting progressively more confused. And I was just talking circles to myself. And then finally, I happen to read in that February of 2021, when the Ravi Zacharias report came out. And in addition to obviously, the terrible accounts of sexual predation was the organizational aspect and how staff who raised questions who were having legitimate concerns, they weren’t buying some of the early propaganda that was being put out, that those staff were being bullied. And I read those reports, and I looked at this, and I’m like, Oh, my gosh, that is what is going on here. And I was shocked, because I finally had words and labels to what I was feeling, what I was experiencing.
And so, I take the next maybe month, I read up a little bit more about the differences between bullying, harassment, rudeness, inconsiderateness, to really make sure that I’m linguistically precise in this matter. And it comes to a head when I call up two of the elders, and I tell them privately, I think I’m being bullied. I think it’s because I’m a woman. I myself had a hard time getting those words out, because I didn’t want to be bullied. And I didn’t want it to be because of my gender. So, the two elders sat on this for a little bit, because Dane was out of town. And when they brought it to Dane, that next Monday, it started the floor falling out of everything, where it was very swiftly after that, then maybe 12 hours, that I was going to be fired. And it took a few days. And in the meantime, I didn’t know what was happening. I just knew that this couldn’t continue. This was not the right behavior. I wanted the elders to help me navigate this and to be safe in it. But that’s not at all what happened. That at the end of the week, Dane fired me, and they had no elder walk me out the door. And then I was done. They follow that up by Dane telling the staff that I had been fired for cause and to not reach out to me.
JULIE ROYS 09:53In a day. Right. You lost your church of how many years?
EMILY HYLAND 09:58I had been there almost 15 years by that point.
JULIE ROYS 10:02You lost your job. You lost your church family. And you were ostracized at this point. People weren’t even talking to you, correct?
EMILY HYLAND 10:12Oh, right. Yeah, it was full on disfellowshipping. I mean, I didn’t know what that word was until somebody told me I was like, Ooh, yeah, that is exactly what it is. I had people who wouldn’t even look at me in public. These were people I had served with for 15 years. And I didn’t believe it could happen. I still I mean, my husband still cannot process that element of it, which is that he cannot believe that people who I’ve been with for that long would turn because I didn’t do anything to them. I didn’t even say anything publicly about Dane. I mean, this was two conversations with elders. And now people won’t speak to me. And that really continues now.
JULIE ROYS 10:50Really, to this day? Yeah. And I want you to comment on this, Paul. But first, I’d like to read a statement by Dave Veerman, who was an elder at the time. So, he participated in the firing. A few months after it happened, clearly had a change of heart, and he resigned himself. And his statement really played a pivotal role in the Illinois Department of Human Rights in their ruling. So, I’d like to read it. I can’t read the whole thing just because of the length. But some portions I think would be really instructive as to what happened and even corroborating what you’re saying. So, this is what he writes. The 2021 version of the Personnel Committee met a couple of times via zoom to discuss a few relatively minor issues. Then we got word that Dane wanted to have us deal with a serious issue with a staff member. At this Zoom meeting on March 16, he said he wanted to let Emily go and made vague references about her performance and relationships with other staff. He also said that he had met with her a couple of times, so we thought she had a pretty good idea of where this was heading. Let me just pause there. Did you have any idea you were going to be fired?
EMILY HYLAND 10:51None. It was so shocking. And this was two days before Palm Sunday. I mean, it is going into the biggest week of the Church year, and to just be like, Oh, we don’t need a director of operations. And we certainly don’t need her to do any turnover. We don’t need her to give us any of the information that she has been using in her job for eight years. I was completely surprised.
JULIE ROYS 12:18Well, and apparently Dave shared your sentiments there. He writes, this news was a shock to us because we had always been impressed with Emily and what she had done for the church. In addition, we had just had a session meeting on March 15, in which nothing had been said about her and her performance. Dane also said that Emily had gone to two elders that she felt close to, and thought would listen empathically and give wise counsel. Later, I learned that she had shared how she had been mistreated recently by Dane and was asking advice on how she should respond. And then I’m gonna skip through some of it and read. He describes that he had several meetings, then with elders and different people. Then he writes, even though I didn’t know Emily’s side of the story, I voted to move ahead with Dane’s recommendation. Our next step was to inform the other elders. So, the three of us each took a few men to call. Then Dane set up a meeting with Emily for Friday, March 19, to inform her and he asked me to be there. At that brief meeting at 1pm, Dane fired Emily saying it was, quote, the will of the session. Unsurprisingly, Emily was quite upset, although trying to maintain her composure. I tried to just listen and not say much. She started reading the agreement. Apparently was there an NDA that they had given you?
EMILY HYLAND 13:32Yeah. On top of the details regarding severance.
JULIE ROYS 13:35Is there anything remarkable about that, or pretty standard?
13:39I think that it was passed off as something that oh, this is just how we do things. We don’t really know what’s in here. But I read contracts very thoroughly and to be like, Wow, no NDA, no severance. That was how it was written, is that if I did not sign away, my legal rights, agree to confidentiality and agree to a non-disparagement, I mean, never saying anything negative about the pastors, the officers, the church or how I was treated. That was the only way I was gonna get any severance. And that’s how it was written. There was no mention of why I was terminated. It wasn’t for cause that was it.
JULIE ROYS 14:15I wish I could say that that was remarkable in some way. I’ve learned that’s very unremarkable that’s very similar to what I got from the Moody Bible Institute when I was fired. And so many people that I’ve talked to are getting NDAs now, and I’m glad that this issue is coming to the fore. That people are realizing that churches now are giving NDAs, that Christian organizations are giving them and they’re about as carnal a document as there is and it is there to protect the institution; has nothing and no care and concern for the employee. As a sister in Christ or a part of the church, but I digress on my editorial comment on that one. But NDAs are just I just think they’re evil.
He continues to write, Emily brought up her recollection of being bullied and strongly pushed back on the decision because of the current cultural attitudes toward misogyny. Skipping ahead. Later, I learned that at 3:30pm, a staff meeting was held to announce Emily’s termination. Dane said 1) Emily was fired for cause, 2) the decision was the will of the session, a session being in a Presbyterian Church sort of the equivalent of the elder board, and 3) staff should not contact her. I need to say that because of Dane’s actions, a few months later, I resigned as an elder and my wife and I left the church. Not to go into many details, but at that time I heard Dane give many of the same rationalizations and explanations for his attitudes and actions in this precipitating conflict. It made me rethink my decision regarding Emily, that I had made a mistake. My agreeing to terminate Emily’s employment was based almost entirely on believing the word of Dane, my pastor. I realized now that I should have looked deeper, ask more questions, and met with Emily to get her side of the story. And again, that’s Dave Veerman, a former elder there at Naperville Presbyterian church. Paul, as you listen to this letter, I could see on your face, yes, we’re on Zoom, by the way, folks, but I could tell that you’re resonating with some things in there. But what stood out to you, as you heard that letter?
PAUL COUGHLIN 16:22That elder is a rare person, sadly. I mean, that’s a rare person who’s going to stick their neck out like that. But those are the people who really keep integrity on the table. So, if I had a hat on, I would take it off to that gentleman. You know, there’s a lot of things that Emily has talked about. And we spoke earlier about the pattern of behavior, right, that people undergo. And when you recognize that pattern, you begin to realize you’re not crazy. And one of the things that is so painful for targets is betrayal. You could hear it in Emily’s voice. And she talked about it; people not talking to her, been at the same church for something like 15 years and people don’t talk to you. The emotional impact of bullying in the workplace itself is swampy for many people. And then you have this being ostracized. And one thing I’d like to point out for any workplace, but especially faith centric workplaces, is that you’re going to expect people to live by a certain level of integrity. And sadly, for whatever reason, it seems to be baked into the system, betrayal is coming. I’m reminded, and I’ve experienced that we’ve all licked our wounds when it comes to this behavior. I’m reminded of that wonderful movie Braveheart, where William Wallace was in.
JULIE ROYS 17:45One of my favorites, by the way.
PAUL COUGHLIN 17:46I’m not surprised. He’s betrayed by his best friend. And because of that, his heart is completely taken out of the battle, he doesn’t care anymore. That is what will happen to us. And so, what I would like to say to our listeners right now is that don’t be surprised by the betrayal. For some reason, it is baked into the system, in most cases, most of the time. I’m reminded by that quote from Martin Luther King, who said, in the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. It’s just how it goes down. It’s par for the course. But I would also want to say to the people listening now who could be that support structure around others, please keep that in mind. You can play a profound role, not just in bringing fairness into the workplace and with integrity, but also in the psychological and spiritual bolstering of another person, you’re that important.
JULIE ROYS 18:49And I’ve heard that repeatedly from people who have been victims of spiritual abuse, church abuse, retaliation, bullying. That they can handle that there’s one bad apple. Like, they can handle that there’s a bully pastor out there, right? They can deal with that. What they can’t deal with, is that everybody got in line with that guy. Everybody stood there silently, while they were excoriated for false charges against them, whatever, and that the average person stood by and did nothing. And that’s been my experience. I know, I just had a birthday recently. I don’t even know if I should say this. But, you know, you get these greetings from folks that you’re like, wait, you haven’t talked to me since the day I was fired! In fact, you wouldn’t take my phone calls. But okay. Thanks for the Happy Birthday. Appreciate that. I mean, it’s one of those things that’s just absolutely stunning. And this is why I think spiritual abuse and church hurt is far worse and more fundamental than other kinds of abuse. And I’m not meaning to minimize certainly all of them are horrible, horrible. But there’s something about this that just goes to the core of your belief system of who you think people are. And if we don’t separate out, God’s people from God Himself, can really mess up and distort our image of who God is. And I think there’s so many people deconstructing today, whatever you want to call it, are just trying to come to grips with what is it that was true that I believed and what was just the stuff that I accepted with it that really wasn’t? And I know there’s people listening who are there, I’ve been there, right? I’m still there to some degree, you know.
PAUL COUGHLIN 20:39And Julie, could I add to that our Lord was bullied before He was crucified. Our Lord knows exactly what it’s like to experience betrayal, false accusations, to put up with the arrogance and the hubris of other people. And he can empathize with our weaknesses, he knows exactly what it was like, because the crucifixion included many of the same components of workplace bullying. So he is on our side, he knows exactly how we feel, and he is there for us.
EMILY HYLAND 21:11I thought about that over the last few years, when you take communion, and it starts with on the night he was betrayed. You can just stop right there and say, Jesus knows what it’s like to be betrayed, and forsaken by everyone who you thought was for you and with you. I mean, to identify in that aspect of religious community is a thread of hope you can have because Jesus knows betrayal.
JULIE ROYS 21:39I’m so glad that you both brought that up. Because I think the ability to identify with Christ in his sufferings, if you’ve been through something like this, is much greater. And yet, as I’ve experienced it, the eye opening thing hasn’t so much been that I get to suffer with him. But it makes me so much more aware of how hideous the suffering that Jesus endured. Just having tasted a small amount of what he went through, has given me just such a greater appreciation for the suffering of Christ by being able to enter into it again, in a very small way, comparatively.
PAUL COUGHLIN 22:21Julie, one thing I tried to point out for people who you’ve talked about, like deconstructing faith, and all three of us have gone through its process right. In my mind, one thing that I have tried to do to try to keep things clear is the difference between churchianity and Christianity. And I think when we see this suffering of Christ, of such great unfairness, I see that in the category of true Christianity, that’s what it’s about. What we are experiencing in faith centric organizations is what I would call churchianity. And I believe that there’s obviously overlap between the two. But also, there’s great distinctions. I think that’s very helpful for people who have been abused so that they can start thinking of it in terms like that, because it helps them hopefully not throw the baby out with the bathwater, where it’s all bad, and it’s all wrong. Rather, it helps to put it in context.
JULIE ROYS 22:22Well, much of what we’re going to be talking about in this podcast is really looking back and thinking, what I wish I had known then that I know now, because it is a learning process. And man, can it be a rude awakening, but an important one. It’s like the matrix as the red pill or the blue pill, right? You know, those of us who have taken I don’t know, is it the red pill that opens your eyes? But yeah, if you take that pill, there’s no undoing it, and you see it.
Let me just start with you, Emily, I know one of the things that you said, if you were to do this over again, is you would stop talking to yourself and start listening to yourself. What do you mean by that?
EMILY HYLAND 23:55Well, as I said earlier, I think I was talking myself in circles, and something would happen, and I would disconnect from my intuition. It felt wrong, but I told myself, nah, and I downplayed the harm that was coming, which I know now, like, that’s not mercy. Mercy is an intentional weighing of the harm that you receive, and a decision to forgive it. To just dismiss harm, and to downplay it and pretend like that wasn’t harm, that’s actually not mercy. I think that, particularly to Christian circles, we think of the Spirit speaking through our intuition. For instance, if I had an intuition to go and talk to a neighbor, and invite them to a church choir service, we would say that that’s the you know, Spirit leading you. But it doesn’t work in the other way. Like if you have this intuition that, you know, I think something’s wrong here. I think my pastor isn’t behaving as a pastor should, that your mind does not really like that absolutely could be the Spirit speaking on your attentions, you’re trying to tell it this Be quiet, and to stop talking. And so, I think I was trying to rationalize away a pattern of events. And now, if I could go back, I would have told myself Stop, listen to how you’re feeling, and especially your sympathetic system. I mean, that is there by God’s design. And when we feel fear, when we feel out of control, when we feel afraid, or wanting to run away, or pressured, and those hormones start making you feel stressed and anxious, that’s not nothing. That’s your body responding to something that is really happening.
And that I should have been listening much more carefully to that, instead of just telling myself in my higher brain, oh, don’t bother with that. It was like, No, this is merely myself trying to protect myself. And I discounted it for a very long time. Until one day, like I said, I just happened to read a description of what workplace bullying in Christian ministry looked like. And it was like my intuition just got plugged in all at once. And it was like, Whoa, now, what followed was my intuition bracket was perfect. I mean, it was remarkable how, yeah, I was right on this stuff. I was accurate. And I didn’t really want to be, I didn’t want to be bullied, and I didn’t want to work for a bullying pastor. None of that was by design. But identifying those behaviors, identifying what was going on behind the scenes, was when that intuition reconnected. And I think that if I could have gone back, I would have listened to my intuition, and realized, yes, that is the spirit, it’s saying some hard stuff that I didn’t want to hear. But that silencing it was to my own detriment.
JULIE ROYS 26:53And let’s also acknowledge that in a lot of these churches, we’re hearing consistent message often of listen to the authorities in your church, be submissive to the authorities in your church and their leadership. Don’t gossip, the meddling, we’re hearing those constantly. And so, it’s a cognitive dissonance that you’re dealing with. And I remember we did a surprise birthday party for my husband once. And there were numerous times that he should have figured out what was going on. And he just didn’t like, and afterwards, we asked him because he was so surprised. Like, how did you not get that? And he’s like, I don’t know. It’s just like this cognitive dissonance and you throw out things that don’t fit the narrative. And you just, it’s funny how we do that. One of the best books out there, and it’s funny that you’ve even said it several times. And when you’re talking about this, is it something’s not right. And I think Wade Mullins book, Something’s Not Right, is just so so good in helping you put your finger on that. So, if you’ve never read this book, you have to read Something’s Not Right. It’s just so good. Or listen to Wade’s talk at the Restore conference, where he talks about some of these things. They’re all available at our YouTube channel, you can see that. And by the way, Paul, your talk on bullying is available on video on our YouTube channel. It’s also available as a podcast, I think June 23, I think of last year is when we published that. So, you can go back and listen to Paul’s whole talk on bullying, which is I know mind blowing for so so many people. Paul, as you hear what Emily just said about trusting that intuition, what comes to mind for you?
PAUL COUGHLIN 28:31A number of things. One thing that would have really helped Emily and so many other people is if she had at least one person standing by her side. She talked about almost like talking to herself and the cycle. We all get into that. And what really helps if we have a person, ideally, a person who is wise, but also more than wisdom, courageous. If we have someone to confide in, they can talk us out of those circular thinking, tends to spiral down, not up usually. And in that wisdom that they give us, we can find the seeds of courage as well because when we get clarity, we have a much stronger ability to move forward, hopefully in an intelligent way with both truth and grace and love.
So, there are people out there who need us desperately in that situation. And I’d like to point out a distinction statistically between men and women when bullied in the workplace. Statistically, men tend to get angry and leave. Women tend to medicate and stay. And unfortunately, and to hear that the protectors what we do is we often advise find another job because it can be so damaging to the person’s spirit to their soul when they undergo this work. And statistically it can be harder on women. That damage can go deeper and last longer. In fact, many of the characteristics of PTSD are the same that happens in the workplace, then people returning from war, it can be that bad. So, it’s an important distinction to keep in mind. You know what I think what happened was Emily, is they picked on the wrong person, and I’ve told Emily this; is that chances are the people in her former workplace, the main pastor particularly, in my opinion, has probably been doing this for a long time, has probably been targeting people specific people and getting his way. And what happened is he probably targeted the wrong person; a person of a lot of backbone. You can tell Emily’s very sharp, but sharpness alone won’t do it. Functioning degree of courage is often necessary in order to defend yourself. And we have a wonderful success story now, I think because of Emily’s character of who she is.
JULIE ROYS 31:04Well, this concludes part one of my podcast with Paul and Emily on bullying in a Christian workplace. In part two, you’ll hear Emily describe more of what she wishes she knew back when she was being bullied that she knows now. And you’ll hear more expert advice from Paul Coughlin, on how to deal with bullies. And also, why you may have become a target.
PAUL COUGHLIN 31:25Bullies in the workplace, particularly within the church, they use our niceness against us. It’s one of the reasons why we’re targeted. We don’t use the word victim at the protectors very often, we prefer the word target. And here’s why. You have been selected, the bully in the workplace, the bully pastor has picked on some people but not other people. Why is that? Because a bully is not looking for a fight, they want to overwhelm another person. So, they look for the nice person, they look for the person, for example, who lives by turning the other cheek.
JULIE ROYS 31:57Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Well, again, that’s Paul Coughlin. And we’ll be releasing part two of this podcast in just a few days. So, you want to be watching for that. Also, if you’re a survivor of church hurt or abuse, or you’re a Christian leader who just wants to learn more about how to protect against abuse and help survivors, I want to invite you to join me at our upcoming Restore conference. This two-day event, October 13 and 14 at Judson University in Elgin, Illinois, is a very special time of healing and equipping. Joining me will be author Wade Molen, whose book we referenced in this podcast, along with Lori Anne Thompson, Sheila Ray Gregoire, Mary Demuth, and more. For more information, go to RESTORE2023.COM.
Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged.
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How is it that evangelicals, who have long extolled the virtues of the First and Second Great Awakenings, now think being “awakened” or “woke” is a bad thing? And how did we evolve from valuing sanctification—to reducing faith into a self-help project?
In this podcast, author and longtime professor Karen Swallow Prior joins me (Julie) to discuss the current crisis in the church, which isn’t just about Trump or celebrity pastor scandals. Evangelicalism suffers from a crisis of imagination, as Karen explains in her book, The Evangelical Imagination. Somehow, over the past few decades, the pool of images, stories, and metaphors that form our imagination has become distorted and diseased. And the result has been catastrophic. We no longer think or imagine in biblical ways.
For example, instead of thinking of the kingdom of heaven as something that advances as we love, serve, and sacrifice for our fellow man, we’ve adopted an empire mentality. In this system, one wins by dominating his fellow man and putting the right people in office. It’s a far cry from the words of Jesus: The last will be first.
To get out of this crisis, we need to reform our imagination—radically. But to do that, we first need to understand how we got here, Karen explains, and then can we chart a way forward.
Guests
Karen Swallow Prior Karen Swallow Prior (PhD, SUNY Buffalo) is a reader, writer, and longtime professor. She is the author of several best-selling books including On Reading Well, Booked: Literature in the Soul of Me and Fierce Convictions: The Extraordinary Life of Hannah More—Poet, Reformer, Abolitionist. Prior has written for Christianity Today, the Atlantic, the Washington Post, First Things, Vox, and Religion News Service. Show Transcript
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Victims of adult clergy sexual abuse often report that their first wound—the abuse itself—was awful. But it wasn't as bad as the second wound: the response by the church to their abuse.
This is precisely what Moriah Smothers and her husband, Jack, describe in a follow-up conversation to our initial podcast interview about the alleged abuse Moriah received at the hands of her former pastor, Patrick Garcia.
In this podcast, Moriah tells of the shame and rejection she experienced from other church members when her abuse was mislabeled an “affair.” Some called her “Judas.” Others told her the devil had got the upper hand. The backlash left both Moriah and Jack devastated and confused.
Yet after a year of extreme pain and brokenness, Moriah heard an earlier edition of The Roys Report podcast with another victim of adult clergy sexual abuse. She said it led her to an epiphany and significant healing.
It also prompted Jack and Moriah to confront leaders at their former church—The Hills Church in Evansville, Ind.—for how they handled Moriah’s abuse. The couple also reached out to Bob Russell, pastor emeritus of one of the largest churches in America, who is currently re-platforming Patrick Garcia.
You’ll hear how Russell and the Hills Church responded. And you’ll hear Moriah and Jack’s impassioned plea for the church and other Christian institutions to start dealing with clergy sexual abuse in an appropriate way.
Guests
Dr. Moriah Smothers Dr. Moriah Smothers is an Associate Professor of Teacher Education and a former elementary special education teacher. She is also a survivor of adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA). Dr. Jack Smothers is a Professor of Management and a secondary survivor. Their heart is to help other ACSA survivors find healing and community. They are passionate about educating church leaders to identify, prevent and respond to ACSA. They have two children and have been married for 15 years. Show Transcript
SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, MORIAH SMOTHERS, JACK SMOTHERS, PAUL LINGE, JIM BURGEN
JULIE ROYS 00:04 In 2020, Moriah Smothers says her spiritual and sexual abuse by her pastor was suddenly exposed. Only no one recognized it as abuse. Instead, it was labeled an affair, and Moriah was ostracized by her church. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and this is part two of a two part podcast with Moriah Smothers and her husband Jack Smothers. In part one, Moriah told of what she believes was grooming and abused by her former pastor Patrick Garcia. And if you haven’t heard part one, I encourage you to go back and listen to that now. It’s a harrowing and cautionary tale about how adult clergy sexual abuse happens. And I wish more Christians understood this phenomenon because it’s a widespread problem wreaking havoc in the church. But so often it goes undetected, and the victims instead of receiving help receive condemnation, and the predators often get re platformed only to continue their predatory ways. So again, if you haven’t heard part one, I encourage you to do that now. But in this podcast, Moriah and Jack describe what is often called the second wound. This was the response of their church to Moriah’s adult clergy sexual abuse, and the shame and the rejection that Moriah experienced was absolutely devastating. But you’ll also hear how after a year of extreme pain and brokenness, Moriah heard an earlier podcast that we did on The Roys Report with another victim of adult clergy sexual abuse and hearing that podcast and recognizing that it wasn’t an affair, but abuse led to a ton of healing. But it also prompted Jack and Moriah to confront the leaders at their former church, Hills church in Evansville, Indiana, for how they handled Maria’s abuse. The couple also reached out to Bob Russell, Pastor Emeritus of one of the largest churches in America, who is currently re-platforming Patrick Garcia. You’ll hear Bob Russell and the Hills church responded, and you’ll hear Moriah and Jack’s impassioned plea that the church and other Christian institutions start dealing with adult clergy sexual abuse in an appropriate way. So, I’m very excited to share this podcast with you.
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We now pick up my conversation with Moriah and Jack Smothers. They previously described how their pastor Patrick Garcia groomed Moriah and then abused his power by luring her into an emotional and sexual relationship. This was eventually discovered by Patrick’s wife, who then told the church leadership. And this is where we join our discussion. So how did you feel the church responded to you, Moriah?
MORIAH SMOTHERS 03:49 I don’t want to over exaggerate this and I can share details. The abuse from my pastor was horrible. The way the church responded was 10 times more traumatizing than the abuse. I could have recovered from the abuse in a reasonable amount of time, I feel but the literature when you read about this, it calls it the second wound. And the first is that having just that abuse experience, but then the church response was really painful. I don’t think the church had any knowledge of adult clergy sexual abuse. And so we were basically told again, through zoom, I think Dave was designated to be the person that communicates with us, nobody else really did, that they were going to release a statement. This is what the statement was. We were not involved in any of the processes the information. I did again, we thought we only had a fair narrative. We had no information about ACSA. And so I did send a text message. Jack and I thought it was a good idea at the time to some of the women I was really close to and I disclosed that this situation had to do with me. In hindsight that was not a good choice because of the way I worded it but oddly, one of the things I’ve struggled to recover the most from, were some of the communications from my very best friends from the church. And most of them were very involved in the church as well. And so one of the ones that has just stuck with me is when your identity is eviscerated, things just have the ability to sink really deep. One of them was calling me Judas and Patrick’s wife at the time was like Jesus. A lot of them wrote, you need to get help, you really let the devil win was a common one I got. I’ll never trust you again was often. And I will say those that were ugly, hurt, they hit really deep. I did get a few women to respond or just like I don’t understand but I’m praying for you. And very little support from within the church. I do want to say that God was really I wouldn’t have been able to make this big faith statement a year ago, but I realized now God was so good. He sent I didn’t know this woman, but she was local. When she heard what was happening at the Hills. She is also a survivor. And she asked for my contact information from a mutual acquaintance. And she immediately got in contact with me and has mentored me, she didn’t know about abuse either. But she and her husband made it and were thriving. But it was another abuse situation locally and just was such a good mentor to me. So, inside the church, the response was not supportive. It was not understanding. We were ostracized, basically. Even people we love dearly the extent of support was basically like, go get marriage counseling, and so not supportive. Outside the church, nobody we met understood ACSA. So I’m not saying that we still never got the language. But there were some people that were able to love on us. Our next-door neighbors, were just Jesus to us. This fellow survivor, my parents came around us very quickly. And so we did have some support that we you know, a lot of people don’t have, so I want to acknowledge that.
JULIE ROYS 07:04 Wow. Jack during this time, you and Moriah’s parents met with Dave Bowersox and Daryl Maron. As I’m understanding that was a pretty tough meeting. Would you describe what happened in that meeting?
JACK SMOTHERS 07:22 It was intense. But so Moriah’s parents are wonderful, amazing Christians, they have invested a lot into Moriah and I, and we trust them, we love them. And so we felt that it would be good to take them along. And I’m glad that they went. They’ve done a lot of counseling in their life. And so they took resources, books, a variety of different resources to help Dave and Daryl in the Hills guard against situations like this occurring again. So they gave them those resources. And we talked through the situation, they shared some of the information that they had, such as you know, I was not aware at that point in time, of the May encounter that had happened at the zoo and police report. And since I was not allowed to come to that meeting with Moriah, I didn’t have that information.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 08:22 There’s was an investigation.
JACK SMOTHERS 08:23 There was an investigation. They hired an investigator to look into Patrick’s devices to see if they could uncover anything. And I guess that went on throughout the summer. And when that didn’t come up with anything that he was re platformed later on in that fall.
JULIE ROYS 08:41 Help me understand this. And maybe I misheard you, you’re saying there was an investigation, they looked at all the devices, and then they re platformed Patrick?
JACK SMOTHERS 08:52 Yeah, The investigation came up with nothing, they did not find any communication. Their suspicion of communication. But they didn’t find anything between Patrick and so this was after just to clarify, this was after the May event.
JULIE ROYS 09:08 Got you. So in between the two?
JACK SMOTHERS 09:10 There was that investigation that didn’t come up with anything. When everything finally did come out, and what was that? September? October? That’s when the meeting happened with Moriah’s parents and myself and the pastors.
JULIE ROYS 09:25 And is it true that Dave Bowersox confessed during that meeting that he was aware that Patrick had an attraction to Moriah?
JACK SMOTHERS 09:34 That is true. So Dave’s advice to Patrick was just get a handle on it, get it under control and resolve your old feelings, essentially. They felt like Patrick may have targeted Moriah, but they said that they felt like Moriah was complicit in that situation. Of course, they didn’t understand at the time the ACSA framework and that complicity would not be possible in that situation. So it was high drama.
JULIE ROYS 10:03 Stunning to me that seminaries don’t teach this. It’s against the law. I wish it was in more states, but in certain states, it is against the law for a pastor to have a relationship like this with a congregant. It seems like we’re, maybe we’re just on the cusp of becoming awake to this. But even as I have interviewed pastors, and say, hypothetically, do you think it would necessarily be abuse if a pastor has a relationship with a married congregant? And there’ll be like, we don’t know what the role of the woman was. Like, I don’t even understand the basics of exactly what you said, Jack, that when there’s a power differential, someone cannot give consent, when there’s that kind of power. But it’s just stunning to me complete and utter ignorance. And it’s inexcusable. Every pastor should be aware of this. The same way that you have to go through training with Title XI, if you work for a university, pastors need to go through this kind of training, if they’re going to serve in the pastorate and so do all the elders and the people who are holding them accountable. But it is just not happening. And it’s really unbelievably frustrating.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 11:19 Yeah. And really, that’s the heart of why we’re talking to you, is that you’re right. It’s illegal in 14 states right now. Understanding adult clergy sexual abuse is a job requisite skill at this point. 20 years ago, maybe not knowing maybe I can get it. There’s so much literature now and fantastic researchers that this has been discussed too widely to claim ignorance at this point. And so I completely agree with you. There should be no ignorance of this issue.
JULIE ROYS 11:50 In the wake of what happened is my understanding that Hills church actually paid for counseling for Patrick, is that right?
JACK SMOTHERS 11:57 That’s what they told us.
JULIE ROYS 11:59 Okay, did they pay for counseling for you?
JACK SMOTHERS 12:02 They did not.
JULIE ROYS 12:03 Help me understand that? Did they give any kind of explanation for that?
JACK SMOTHERS 12:08 No, we didn’t ask them to pay for anything.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 12:11 I chose a counselor because my survivor friend had also seen this woman. And again, she didn’t know she was actually a survivor at the time. And so she was affiliated with a church that the Hills did not want us to receive counseling from. And so they actually discouraged me from seeing a counselor. They wanted us to see a counselor that was also I believe, seeing Patrick and his wife at the time. And so I was uncomfortable seeing a counselor that they recommended, which they didn’t offer to pay for anything either way. But again, Julie, our supportive statement was go get marriage counseling. As if our marriage was broken, not that I was targeted and groomed and abused, confusing.
JULIE ROYS 12:55 And the statement that was given at the time called it an inappropriate relationship, correct? Patrick did say that it was his fault, and no one but him. His fault, yet seems like some mixed messages in what was being said.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 13:10 And there was no disclosure, I was a congregant. And I think that while there was no overtly blaming me in this situation there, I felt like the context of the sermon was, frankly tacky. It was preaching from the woman caught in adultery. And it was from the lens of a let’s not throw the first stone but as a broken woman, I listened to it. That was all I heard is the adultery piece. They had all the advisory boards stand up front, and you could just see their disgust on their face. It was a group I should have been part of. Because if anybody had known I was missing, that would have been very a clear signal if they had known. It really has always bothered me, they never disclosed I was a congregant. I think that was very intentional. Actually, Dave Bowersox had apologized. He said, I’m so sorry you all are having to go through with this. And Jack, I think he said something like, I’m sure there’s not a script for it. And they’ve said, Oh, no, there actually is. So they received counsel from somewhere about how to handle these situations.
JULIE ROYS 14:13 They didn’t make you were a big Scarlet A, at least. I guess we’ve progressed a little bit. But unbelievable. Yeah, what you went through and I’m so sorry. That just sounds absolutely traumatizing. For a year while you’re in biblical counseling, you’re believing the narrative. How did you internalize what you had done and the consequence?
MORIAH SMOTHERS 14:40 Yeah. Oh, man, that’s complicated. Julie, honestly, a lot of pieces did not make sense. But I was so desperate to keep my family together. I was willing to take responsibility for anything and everything. And so that’s what I did for a season is I did a lot of work with my biblical counselor to figure out what was wrong with me. Like how had I sinned, how had I fallen, I will own it, I will repent for everything under the sun. Because I wanted to be well and whole. I didn’t understand how this happened because I didn’t want to have an affair. To be honest, I’m not even attracted to Patrick. I had no clue how this happened. But all we had was a fair framework. My mom tried to be really sweet and helpful gave me like a fair recovery books and things. And I started to read them. And I was like, this isn’t me, this isn’t I’m not represented in this. And so I will say the counselor I saw, knew nothing about abuse and trauma for this situation. She did some good soul care kind of things with me. But yeah, we were just trying to keep it together with the fair.
JULIE ROYS 15:47 Wow. That’s a very humble response, and so often we don’t see those. You can only do what you know. But when you know, then you’re responsible. And that’s super, super important. It seems like you did have an epiphany. And it was on a podcast that we published, which, when I hear things like that it’s so heartening. We work in the trenches a lot from day to day. And it’s not the easiest work. But things like that, to hear stories of how it has impact is, it can give you some fuel for a decent amount of time. So I’ll just say that it just is really encouraging.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 15:47 He won’t say this, but my biggest source of healing was Jack. That sweet man, we walked together a lot. That’s where we bond as we walk. And so like we were walking every day for miles and miles. And he was my counselor at that time. And how deeply unfair for him to have been traumatized the way he was, and yet he was supporting me. I wanted basically nothing to do with faith at that point. And I’ve loved Jesus my whole life basically, that I thought, How can God cannot be good if my pastor treated me this way. Which I could have gotten over that, but I thought, There’s no way the church is good or right, if it’s been covered up by other pastors. So I was relying on Jack’s faith. And Jack never asked me to leave. And again, we thought affair, never asked me to leave. He never yelled at me. There was a moment that it’s still it’s really hard to talk about. It was very soon after all of this had come out. And again, I was following him around the house because I was dazed and confused what had happened. He stopped in the doorway, and our kids were sitting there watching. And he said, I just feel so much compassion for you. And that was the first time he hugged me since it all came out. And I don’t usually cry. I’m not a crier. I sobbed and sobbed in the hallway. And it was like, from that moment, I knew we were going to be okay. But it was hard. It was a hard road. And I did get some bad advice spiritually. The counselor told me that God had probably planned this for me, maybe for Patrick Garcia to get out of ministry. And I thought, man, if that’s what God plans for the children he loves, I don’t want to follow that God anymore. So that was a rough road. I will say for that counselor, Jack and I once we did realize what had happened, that it was abuse, we went back to her, presnted that. She graciously received that she apologized to us for not knowing. And so I have a lot of respect for her for that reason. And I’m excited for the work she’s going to do in the future with this new knowledge.
JULIE ROYS 17:49 But you heard a podcast, I guess it was November 2021, that I recorded with Katie Roberts, a beautiful, wonderful person that has become a friend, because I’ve been able to share her story with a lot of you. And so courageously she walked through what was incredibly difficult, and she took incredible hits from people criticizing her. It is just so indicative of the misogyny in our culture, that we just have such a difficult time wrapping our heads around the fact that women are not the temptress or that we cannot acknowledge that this is abuse. But Katie, beautifully did, and you heard that podcast when she talked about her own grooming, and abuse. Talk about what that was like to hear that and for the light bulb to go on.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 19:23 That was an epiphany and that’s exactly what it was. I’d been listening to your podcast for a while because I didn’t have the words but I felt like something was mishandled here. It just, what happened in the church, it didn’t sit right. Like I knew it didn’t feel like justice somehow but I didn’t know why. And I’ve been listening to you for a while Katie came on. And I remember almost feeling a little shaky and scared because I felt like she’s telling my story. Like how could she possibly know what happened to me? And how has it happened to her? And this was way before I knew that there’s so many similarities between these grooming and abuse stories with clergy. And I listened to the whole thing, I sent it to everybody in our support network, which let’s be honest, that actually wasn’t very many people at the time. But anybody that knew our story and would listen, I sent them the podcast. And I was like, how can this be? The language she used to explain like the grooming and the trauma bonding, the love bombing. She used the language that I had been describing, but didn’t have the right word for it. And so it was such a weird thing. But I remember feeling I have to know more about this. And so I looked up Katie’s email, and I emailed her and I said, I don’t know if this makes any sense or not. But this is my story. And I shared it all. And she responded, and we ended up hopping on a phone call or zoom, I don’t remember. But her first words to me, I actually wrote them down to share at the end of this podcast, because there was so much compassion when she heard my story. And she said, I’m so sorry how you’ve been mistreated. And from someone outside of my circle, but didn’t have to love me and hear my story, that was such a powerful moment, because she got it. And while we were talking, she kept saying I understand, and that makes sense. And I thought, I didn’t even understand all of this, and she did. And that’s another part of the reason we’re talking to you is that we found truth and understanding and freedom through Katie’s story, which I know was a grueling experience for her. And I thought if the Lord is going to bring this opportunity full circle, where I learned through Katie, if someone can hear our story, and hear the tragedy, but also the hope, then we can’t pass that up.
JULIE ROYS 21:53 I love that. And I have found that nobody can minister to a survivor like another survivor.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 22:03 I’ve learned the most through that community, there’s a support group community that Katie and a few others founded. It’s called Restored Voices Collective, and the learning, the growth, the empathy that happens in there, it could not be replicated, and it’s only other survivors. So we’re just supporting each other, we’re not trying to overly educate or correct, it’s just living life together in the aftermath of deep brokenness.
JULIE ROYS 22:33 And I think that’s what I’ve heard and what I’ve experienced, what I’ve seen. The Restore Conference that we’ve done, you know, a couple of those. And I remember the first one, I thought, oh, we should have prayer ministers, you know, to make sure because really, I mean, the whole vision was just to gather people that were literally strewn along the highway. I mean, that’s just how it seems when you report these stories, and the church isn’t caring for them, the church harmed them. And so they have nowhere to go and to see them come together. And I realize the prayer ministers are here, they’re each other, right? It’s the person who’s sitting down right beside you, who you don’t have to explain hardly anything because they get it. And it really is. And I know the survivor community is not perfect. And sometimes there can be some really painful things that happen within it. But I would say 90-95% of the people in there are just some of the most compassionate, good people because their character has been refined by fire.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 23:39 And I attended your last Restore conference, and I got to meet a lot of the women I’d only known online up until that point, through zoom meetings, and one of the things that struck me is that personally, they’re very normal, seeming. It’s like when you feel so broken and devastated. Which is strange to me, like these very regular moms and women, but what I also know about them is they are warriors, they are so strong and so capable and intelligent. And that was an amazing experience just to see like my supporters in person. And that was amazing. Thank you for putting on those conferences, because I got to meet my people in person because of that.
JULIE ROYS 24:20 It’s a pleasure to do it really is and it’s an honor. And we have another one coming up. So October 13 and 14th. If you’re interested in that, I hope if you’re listening you can because honestly, being with those people and experiencing what God does there, is probably one of the favorite things that I’ve ever done in my life. I absolutely love it. So it’s RESTORE2023.COM if you want more information on that.
So talk about the difference and you’ve already touched on it but the healing journey for you and Jack having this new perspective that this was not an affair that this was abuse, that you are a victim, that you’re a survivor walking through this, what difference did that make emotionally and relationally, but also spiritually?
MORIAH SMOTHERS 25:16 Oh, that’s a big question. So I will say, for me the language made all the difference. Because earlier in the podcast you mentioned, I wrote that I felt like an addict. Now, knowing that description while being true is describing trauma bonding, that was really powerful. And I think because I’m a teacher person, like, language has been so healing for me. And it’s given me search terms, basically, to read about what does this mean. So that’s been a huge part of my healing. And then also being able to teach other people in my life about this is what this means this is how this happens. And just having the right words to study has been very healing. Also, I would say, understanding ACSA was healing in and of itself, because there’s so many pieces of who I am, who Jack was, our life didn’t just didn’t fit affair. And so it felt very insufficient. And we did not have answers. Once we had this framework and understood how this happens, I started talking to other survivors, hearing similarities and stories. It’s a really sad club to be part of. But then you have your other people to compare notes with. And so you have options and choices again, that I never had before. And so again, we were happy healing in private with that, but that made a big difference. My faith was a battle though. I think, intellectually, and emotionally, Jack was so stable for me and such a good listener, he helped me heal up in that way. My faith was a big, I still struggle with that, if I’m being completely honest. I was really ready to walk away for a while thinking that there’s no goodness in church, I don’t see how God can be good if these are the people that are leading a church. And so I got to a place in my faith that I realized that, so our kids committed their life to Jesus as well before, while I was really still struggling, which was such a beautiful thing. So I really felt like to be a good wife and mom, I’ve got to figure out this faith thing. Because I was willing at that point, I’ll follow Jack wherever he goes. So if I have to attend church and just be mentally elsewhere, I will. But I knew I’ve got to figure out what this is. So I mentally went through like the major religions. And I was like, I don’t see myself becoming a Buddhist and like really going through, like, where am I going to land because I’m a faithful person, I always have been, I knew I needed a religion, or faith. And so I thought, gosh, well probably like my best option is just really going with some kind of new age thing. But I would be a horrible God to myself. And so I felt like that’s not on the table. And so I thought, Okay, I’ve got to figure out what do I really believe about Jesus? Because Jack has been being Jesus to me. And I don’t mean that in a weird way, just like modeling the goodness of God, like I was holding on to his faith. And for the first year, again, only affair framework, I was able to read the Psalms, which was fine, like that was good, it was a start. But then when I realized I’ve got to make my mind up about what I think about Jesus, I started reading the gospels again. And that was a moment for me that I realized, I absolutely love the person of Jesus Christ, and that our hearts were so much in alignment about, he rarely called out anyone in sin or the vulnerable. He called out religious leaders for the way they were hurting vulnerable populations. And so that was a turning point for me is that, first of all, Jack modeled faith to me. He modeled the love of Jesus, which kept me hanging on by a thread. And then once I could finally reengage with the Word of God, I just focused on the person of Jesus. And I was able to fall back in love with him and really have some deeper roots again. I say now, and I completely mean this. The only people in my life I really trust are Jack and Jesus.
JULIE ROYS 29:08 Wow. I love the honesty and the vulnerability. And I don’t know anyone who has walked through church hurt, or certainly adult clergy sexual abuse- that’s just brutal – who hasn’t struggled in their faith in their walk with the Lord. I just spent the weekend with a survivor and, boy, they were raw, and they were honest, and I’ve been through it too. So.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 29:40 And we’re really healed up in a lot of ways. But I mean, we’re almost three years out, but church is hard still. We’ve just moved. We’re looking for a new church home. It’s hard. And there’s a lot of triggers and red flags and it’s just even when you’re in a good place and you really love the people. It’s just hard.
JULIE ROYS 29:56 It is, but I will say one thing, my teachers, Katie has been a teacher. Lori Anne Thompson has been a teacher. And they’ve been gracious with me like when I’ve written something and I used a wrong word or a wrong term, and they won’t mince words. They’ll reach out to me, but they’re gracious when I’m like, Oh, I’m so sorry. I’m sorry. I’m not. Yep. Okay. Help me understand.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 30:22 That’s survivor community, they are loving but they are fierce and I love that about them.
JULIE ROYS 30:27 Yes, they are. But I think it’s so important to process what’s happened. And I know just my own church hurt, experience, being able to process with people that you’re not going to rack them, if you just say exactly how you’re feeling in the moment. And that’s just super, super important.
Let’s turn to holding the church accountable, because after this happened after you became enlightened about what had actually happened to you, you reached out to the Hills leadership, and you wrote them a letter, you’ve given me a copy of that letter. I think it’s so good. I would love for you to just read it because my understanding is you sent this letter, so far, you haven’t gotten a response.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 31:17 No, I think it was confirmed it was received. Actually, the first letter I sent Jack was really kind. Again, I know we’ve been harsh about the church we came from, the Hills. We love a lot of the people there. I think there’s some good things happening there. Out of respect, Jack met with Dave Bowersox to let them know this letter is coming. But besides that, you did get a response after this letter, though. Didn’t he call you?
JACK SMOTHERS 31:42 He did respond. I don’t know if it was a call or an email. But he did respond.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 31:45 And I think it was basically like we mishandled the situation was the response. I wrote this letter in fall 2021. So that was right after learning about adult clergy sexual abuse. So I will say I’ve learned a lot more since then. There are a few pieces of it that knowing what I know now, I would reword differently. But this is right where I was at having learned it, so I’ll read it for what it is.
My Hills church leadership. For most of the past year, Jack and I have been trying to navigate our way through this situation, with the framework and language that surrounds an affair or inappropriate relationship, which implies there was full consent from both people. While many of my choices were sinful and I egregiously sinned against God and Jack, it did not account for many of the experiences represented within the reading and counseling in which we engaged. I voraciously sought material to gain an understanding of what happened with the hopes that knowledge would alleviate my confusion and brokenness. In doing so I recently discovered the concept of adult clergy sexual abuse, ACSA, and for the first time I understood what had occurred. With this new knowledge, I felt compelled that we as the church need to grow in this area. Upon reflection, Jack, and I believe there are two logical explanations for the way that Hills leadership handled the situation, which include either ignorance or intentional misrepresentation.
From an assumption of ignorance, if you had been aware of power dynamics requirements for consent, the cycle of ACSA abuse, how targets are chosen by predators and the grooming process, then this situation would have been conveyed to the congregation differently. The alternate explanation is that you received legal/peer counsel to minimize the liability of the church by intentionally misrepresenting clergy abuse as an inappropriate relationship. Regardless of the explanation of what happened in the past, there is much work to be done going forward to minister to those who have been hurt within the church. Therefore, I am writing to you with the hope that you as an institution will be able to grow and change as I have been growing and changing in my understanding and the implications of this critical issue. I hope you have read and shared my side of the story with the church leadership, elders, pastors and advisory council, which was given to you in fall 2020.
However, if you have not, I suggest you review it so you have an anecdotal understanding of ACSA in this specific situation. Given my new understanding of power differentials and how they apply to pastors and congregants, I fully believe I was exploited by Patrick Garcia, and it was erroneous and misleading for the church leadership to convey it as an inappropriate relationship, which conveys consent. The predatory nature of the lead pastor was not communicated to the congregation, which is of great concern to me because it minimizes the impact of abuse within the church. I’ve included several resources on ACSA and I pray that you will educate yourselves and your leadership teams on the nuances of this type of abuse, how to effectively prevent it and how to handle it with integrity and transparency if it does occur. The reason that I am writing to you is threefold. One, I ask that you reach out to other potential victims and provide them with the support and resources to understand misconduct, grooming and abuse by spiritual/pastoral leader. As you are likely not aware of all the victims who have been adversely impacted by pastoral misconduct in the church you lead, an open invitation to all congregants is likely needed. Please connect them with a female counselor that is well versed in adult clergy sexual abuse and misconduct. The wounds from this are complex and deep. So I implore you to seek out your hurting sheep and care for them. Two, I ask that you share my story and ACSA resources with anyone in the church that you consider a leader. In my opinion, this means the elder board, pastoral staff and advisory board at a minimum. It is the church leadership’s responsibility to shepherd their flock with care and dignity. Choosing to not educate yourselves when a wolf has wreaked havoc on your congregation is not living up to the call our Lord has placed on your role. Number three, I ask that you inform the perpetrator and people from whom you received counsel, that this was not simply an inappropriate relationship, that it falls under the criteria of adult clergy sexual abuse. By doing this, I hope you will clearly communicate that God’s church is a place that abuse in any forum is not tolerated, because your primary goal is to protect the people under your care. I then provide some working definitions of clergy sexual misconduct, clergy sexual abuse and abuse of power. And then there were hyperlinked resources at the bottom.
JULIE ROYS 32:41 So you asked for three things. Of those three things that you asked for, have you gotten any of them?
MORIAH SMOTHERS 35:40 If any of those things have been done, they have not been communicated to us.
JULIE ROYS 36:39 Okay. And, Jack, you had a conversation with Dave Bowersox after he received this letter? What did he say?
JACK SMOTHERS 36:50 They were still processing what their response was going to be. And so he did thank me for meeting with him before we sent the letter to give him a heads up about what our intention was in sending the letter. But that was the extent of the response that we received.
JULIE ROYS 37:06 And then you send a follow up letter to a couple months later, still nothing.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 37:10 No. I reminded them of the request, and I sent the follow up, not to just be hounding them, but it was when everything had come out in a bigger way with the SBC. And so I thought surely this will get their attention that they’ll realize how serious this is because the SBC even came out and said that if a pastor is in a relationship with a congregant, it’s abuse, and that’s a disqualifying sin. And so I thought having this outside entity that is that powerful, repent, hopefully, that should speak volumes to them. I received confirmation it was received, but I have not heard word if anything was actually done.
JULIE ROYS 37:50 Right. And when this is called an affair and not abuse, it does open the door for the person to reoffend, and to continue doing this. And there may be others who have similarly been groomed by Patrick.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 38:07 I’ve been told very specific information about those situations, which makes me think it’s credible, but I have not had interaction or communication with any women that would say that. But again, they probably wouldn’t even know it was grooming.
JULIE ROYS 38:21 So now, almost three years have passed since Patrick resigned from the Hills. When he did so he said he was going to undergo a quote, season of restoration so that the root of my brokenness and dysfunction can be addressed. Christian Post just published this article in June in which Patrick says he’s repented. He said, he’s gotten to the root of his pride. He’s preaching again. Do you believe Patrick Garcia is repentant? And why or why not?
JACK SMOTHERS 38:53 I’ll give my thoughts on that. Not to dodge the question, but I don’t believe it matters whether or not he is repentant. I believe that an abuser is disqualified from ministry regardless of whether or not they repent. I hope that he has restored his relationship with God. I hope that all abusers come to an understanding of the pain that they have inflicted and are genuinely sorry and repent from that sin. But that does not mean they are then qualified to stay in that profession. They can go get any other job anywhere in the world, but not that one.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 39:35 Actually, one of the things I feel strongly about is that I hope he’s repentant. I hope everyone repents, but that does not mean there’s leadership roles out there for them. I think actually, repentance means not seeking out leadership, because that’s where this pain occurred. Like clearly that’s a temptation that’s a difficult area. Restore your relationship with God and be involved in a healthy body, church body. But I don’t think that means leadership. And that’s where I’m seeing my biggest concerns are about the church right now is that repentance equates to re-platforming. And I don’t think that’s what that means.
JULIE ROYS 40:13 And when trust is betrayed, trust has to be earned back. And honestly, I said this not too long ago, but some of these guys don’t have enough time in their life to earn back the trust that they’ve squandered and that they betrayed. But I agree with you. And I know there’s going to be people who disagree. And what about David? We’ve talked about this so many times on podcasts, or listen to other podcasts, we’ve addressed this ad nauseam, but I’m just so tired of it. Above reproach is the qualification in Scripture for an elder. Are you above reproach? I have a tough time thinking that someone who has preyed on a congregant. Think about that; you’re supposed to be a shepherd, and you became the wolf. How we could ever put that person back in the sheep pen again. And the amount of concern and compassion and let’s pray for the predator that you hear. And the little that you hear about praying and concern and care for the victim is appalling. And I think it’s very indicative of the kind of culture that we live in, which puts celebrities up on the platform. And man, if you are an order, and you you have the right stuff, boy, people just love you. But man, if you’re not, and you happen to be in the way of someone getting back on that platform, it’s very difficult.
So I asked Jim Bergen, he’s the lead pastor of Flat Irons Community Church in Colorado, and Paul Linge, who currently oversees the counseling ministry there at Crossroads, whether or not they thought that Patrick was ready to return to ministry, whether he should be replatformed. I got two very different responses. So I’d like to play both of them. First, here’s how Jim Bergen responded.
JIM BURGEN 42:12 Patrick absolutely messed up in a simple way with this woman. Her degree of willingness or participation. I don’t know anything about she didn’t call me. Patrick confessed to me, and I okay about disclose everything you know, and get on it. And even as he’s starting to move back into ministry, I have a lot of texts going hey, do you think I can preach again? Do you think I can preach again? And I’m like, slow down. Because it’s been, I don’t think, we lose most of the New Testament and all of the Old Testament, if sexual sin disqualifies you from ministry forever. I mean, David, we lose Abraham, okay. But I don’t think that when a pastor makes a mistake like this, it’s a death sentence forever. But it definitely is a slow, long healing process. And that’s what I cautioned him with, over and over again.
JULIE ROYS 43:04 Okay, clearly, Jim Bergen doesn’t share our view on this.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 43:09 Really, Jim Burgen understand or know any survivors of ACSA. Just sexual sin and not the spiritual or emotional or psychological. He needs some education on that.
JULIE ROYS 43:20 He does. And actually, in our conversation, I pushed back on that and asked him about spiritual abuse, about adult clergy sexual abuse, as well, and what qualifies. And it was clear to me that a lot of this was new to him.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 43:35 Yeah, we’ve met some really, truly good men, good shepherds, pastors that we have a lot of respect for. They don’t know. And I’m just floored by that.
JACK SMOTHERS 43:47 But the good ones respond with a desire to learn. Yes, and that’s really encouraging. Moriah has done a wonderful job of putting together training on ACSA. We’ve been able to deliver that to two different churches, and it’s just fantastic and encouraging and edifying to see the godly people who get it and they want to improve they want to protect their congregation and guard against wolf-like behavior.
JULIE ROYS 44:16 As I said, I also asked Paul Linge about this question, and I’d like to play his response.
PAUL LINGE 44:23 Christian Post article stated that he did meet with Crossroads elders as part of what I think was I don’t remember if it was Southeast or Bob Russell in particular but basically trying to put him on a restoration pathway which to me was grossly inefficient. General sense was it was a box to check rather than any kind of your display of repentance. Because for him to really go on a restoration journey with the people at Crossroads and Evansville. That’s not a one-time meeting. There’s probably months of meeting, based on the damage that was created in our community. So that’s why it feels very superficial. I personally, and just through my own contacts have not seen the necessary repentance, or else he would be spending a lot more time in Evansville, the community that he helped blow up if that were true. And so I don’t, I think the article comes across as in not just to me, but to others in our communities who read it, as though he was somehow the victim, whether that was the victim of Crossroads, the victim of the Hills leadership, the victims of Savannah, and it’s just not true. At some point, a person has to take ownership and responsibility that for their own choices and behavior. I think he keeps getting prodded along by some key figures, who, for whatever reason, are reticent to just tell him the truth. Maybe they are, and I just don’t know it. But it just seems like he’s been continued to be propped up. I don’t know if it’s so much of a timeline, Julie, as it is looking for mile markers along the way. Right. So looking for signs of humility, looking for signs of teachability, looking for signs of repentance, looking for signs of restitution. I wronged you, you know, I dented your car, I’m going to pay for it to make sure it gets fixed. When you see that, you know, kind of the key is anybody I have wronged, then I’ll make it right. That’s the type of response I think you’re looking for when you’re talking about character change, or even your personality change. Once you start to see that and you’re like, okay, something’s happening. What we’re looking for is their demonstration is there not feigned or fake remorse, but genuine repentance. And that’s what I would say, at least from my experience from my seat. I have not seen that in Patrick Garcia in the last five years.
JULIE ROYS 47:02 I’m guessing you resonate with a lot of what Paul said. I think he’s absolutely right for looking for the markers of repentance, whether or not that means you can re-platform that’s another question. And there’s really need to be two different questions that people need to understand; you can be restored to Christ, you can be restored to the body restored to a position, that’s a totally different thing. And I think people need to just start saying you’re permanently disqualified. I don’t know why we just can’t seem to say that in the church. And yet I think it needs to be said for abusers. Absolutely.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 47:39 And, Julie, I just want to again, echo what Paul said in his clip. It’s what Jack and I were saying, Actually, Jack wrote this to Leonardo Blair, who wrote the article that the level of pain and trauma that article caused from Patrick, Blair made himself as the victim clearly demonstrates no understanding of spiritual authority, power dynamics, abuse. Anyone that was mentioned in that article, he re traumatized, and Leonardo did too. So I’m going to be very blunt, I hold the Christian Post responsible for publishing that as well as Patrick Garcia. Because I think, yeah, I think I hold them all responsible. We have too much information to just publish whatever might get a few clicks at this point without considering all of the victims, not just Jack and I, but the churches, the families.
JULIE ROYS 48:30 And I think reporters need to be educated, absolutely need to be educated and trauma informed and all of these things and if you’re not fine, but it’s no excuse at this point. Get it.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 48:44 Yeah, we get it. If you’re not and don’t want to be, go report on the weather, don’t report when they’re in a space where there are victims.
JULIE ROYS 48:50 Yeah, absolutely. And there is clearly, I would agree, complete dearth of understanding of what ACSA, adult clergy sexual abuse is, and it needs to be remedied. I agree. Again, Patrick has been re platformed by Adventure church. He’s preached there several times. That’s a church in Louisville, Kentucky. I reached out to Adventure for comment. The church did not respond. Bob Russell has also replatformed Patrick. Bob had Patrick share about his fall and restoration at Bob’s mentoring retreat for pastors. This, that Patrick is up there now instructing pastors about his fall and restoration and they’re learning from him how to be a pastor. How does that make you feel?
JACK SMOTHERS 49:41 That is absolutely ridiculous. You can’t have someone who is an abuser trying to instruct people on how not to abuse. I don’t understand really the line of thought and why you would want to put him into that scenario given his background. I think honestly I would just say my concern is, why is there so much focus on helping these pastors who have abused other people, instead of focus on how do we help the abused? How do we help the victims of the people who we have, are partially responsible for their victimization? That’s really where the focus should be is how do we care for the vulnerable? because that’s exactly what Jesus did. That’s who he ministered to. And that’s who he loves. So that’s, we just have a mis alignment, a missed focus on on what we really talk about in churches.
JULIE ROYS 50:37 And I’m guessing Bob Russell has met with Patrick, and continues to mentor him and yet, you guys reached out through Dave Road up, who I understand is someone who has relationship, he’s in Christian leadership has a relationship with Bob Russell. He wouldn’t meet with you. He would not meet with you.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 50:58 Yeah. Paul Linge was the connection. We met with him and several other Crossroads leaders and shared our story shared educational material. They held space for us and held our story with so much goodness. That was very restorative. I struggle with pastors in general, getting to meet with Paul Linge helped restore some of that faith in that role. So the connection between us and Bob Russell is very removed, we don’t know him. But we told Paul, if Bob Russell’s willing to hear our story, we’re willing to share it. And so there was also David Roadcup was involved there. David Roadcup knows our story as well. He shared it with Bob Russell what he could and said, Are you willing to meet with this couple, because they have concerns that Patrick Garcia is preaching again. And his comment was that if there was not sexual intercourse, I will not meet with them. That was what we were told. And so I guess anything, pastors are allowed to do anything, and be preaching and be re-platformed, besides have sexual intercourse with someone who’s not their wife, is the message there.
JULIE ROYS 52:01 Well, and again, we didn’t hear that directly from Bob’s mouth. But I have reached out to Bob, to try to get comment to try to clarify to give him opportunity. And he has not responded. If he’d like to, I’m still here, and he can do it. And I’ll report what he says. Or if he’d like to apologize, he can do that, too. But just would like to hear from him, it would be really nice.
Last question. And thank you so much. I know this is so hard, and can be re traumatizing. And it’s difficult. And I know that you only do this because you care about other victims, you care about the church, and its ability to care for others and so this doesn’t happen and keep happening to people. And so that Patrick doesn’t get platformed and is able to prey on vulnerable people again. But I know it comes at a cost. And so I’m extraordinarily grateful to both of you. I know, just knowing the audience that we have for this podcast, that there are people listening, who have been through what you’ve been through, they may be in totally different levels of healing right now of understanding. But I think it’s amazing how well both of you are doing three years, that may seem like a long time, it also seems a really short time, and you’re doing remarkably well. Not just as human beings individually, but together in your marriage. And that’s, I think, a testament to who you are as human beings and to the godliness. As you know, when you were talking about Jack and the way he’s carried you through this, great husbands are a gift. And that’s really beautiful to hear that. But I’m just wondering what you might say to other survivors who are listening, some of whom may just be right now white knuckling it just to hold on?
MORIAH SMOTHERS 53:55 Yeah, yeah, and the survivor community is really, that’s my heart. Like you said, that’s why we’re here. There’s a line in Wade Mullins book that I’ve tried to anchor myself to, and I’m not going to quote it perfectly. Something’s Not Right is the book that says, as part of your healing journey, you need to think about what your abuser or his supporters would want you to do and do the opposite. And so this is me reclaiming using my voice for that. And so I really thought about what would I say to other survivors, because I know where they’ve been at. And so I would repeat what sweet Katie Roberts said to me the first time I spoke to her in person, and is that I’m so sorry for how you’ve been treated. You aren’t alone. There’s others of us that have been where you’re at. It’s an absolute nightmare. But there are other people out there that get it. We’re here for you. There’s a group of women that would love to hear your story, and we’re going to understand it because we’ve lived it as well. We’re here to support you in that and that’s Restored Voices Collective. Julie, if you can put that little link in your bio that would be great. I would encourage other survivors work really hard to find a counselor that understands trauma. Don’t settle for a counselor that just loves Jesus. With what you’ve been through, it’s not enough. They need to know trauma and abuse. If they love Jesus, that’s great too Take the time to learn and study the language of what happened to you. Some of the researchers and writers that have been instrumental for me are David Pooler has been one of them. Dr. Heather Evans is another one, Mary DeMuth’s book, We Too, is a really wonderful book. And I would say, take care of yourself. I know, this healing process is long and hard. You need people that can cheer you on and just sit with you in the pain. And the last thing I would say is, my faith is intact. And I hope that people that have really had a close relationship with Jesus, that have been abused, I hope you’re able to find your way back to Him. But take your time; he’s patient, he’s willing to sit with you through all of the pain. And so when you’re ready to explore faith again, or figure out what that looks like, just look to Jesus, don’t look to your church leaders don’t look to a denomination. Just look to Jesus for that.
JULIE ROYS 56:12 That is so good. Moriah thank you. And thank you for just sharing so openly, Jack, thank you the same, again, difficult topic, but appreciate the way that you guys have walked through this with integrity. And the way that you’re really reaching out to others and taking courageous stands to speak out, which is never easy. So thank you, it’s just really been a blessing to get to know you.
JACK SMOTHERS 56:37 Thank you.
MORIAH SMOTHERS 56:38 Thank you. We appreciate the opportunity.
JULIE ROYS 56:40 And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’ve appreciated this podcast, would you please consider supporting the work that we do here at The Roys Report. As I’ve said before, we don’t have any big donors or advertising we simply have you, the people who care about telling other survivors stories, exposing wrongdoing, bringing healing and restoring the church. Also this month when you give a gift of $30 or more, we’ll send you a copy of Christy Boulware’s book, Nervous Breakthrough. It’s such a great resource and I’m so excited to make it available to you to donate and get a copy of Nervous Breakthrough, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged.
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In 2020, Moriah Smothers thought her emotional and physical relationship with her pastor, Patrick Garcia, was an affair. She blamed herself and was ostracized by many in her church. Yet now, Moriah realizes she was the victim of adult clergy sexual abuse. And since Garcia has returned to preaching—and was recently featured in an article as a repentant and reformed pastor—Moriah is speaking out.
In this exclusive podcast interview, Moriah and her husband, Jack, speak publicly for the first time since Patrick Garcia resigned from The Hills Church in Evansville, Indiana.
At the time, Garcia confessed to engaging in an “inappropriate relationship, both physically and emotionally.” And he pledged to undergo a “season of restoration so that the root of my brokenness and dysfunction can be addressed.”
Almost three years later, that season is apparently nearing a close. Garcia said recently that he’s been able to determine what caused his crash. And, with the backing of mentoring pastor Bob Russell—pastor emeritus of one of the largest churches in the U.S.—Garcia is starting to minister again. This comes as a shock to Moriah, who says Garcia groomed and abused her, using his power as a pastor to keep her in a relationship she repeatedly tried to escape. And, in this podcast, Moriah and her husband, Jack, explain why they don’t think Garcia should ever be allowed back into ministry.
This podcast includes an interview with a pastor who served under Garcia at Crossroads Christian Church, where Garcia served until 2018, when he was fired. The Crossroads pastor says Garcia wasn’t fired for mere “philosophical differences,” as previously announced, but for profound character issues. Also offering perspective is Jim Burgen, lead pastor of Flatirons Community Church in Colorado. Like Pastor Russell, Jim is a close friend and mentor for Garcia.
Is Garcia a restored pastor, whose gifts shouldn’t be withheld from the church? Or, is he a predator, who continues to deceive and manipulate, and shouldn’t be allowed in ministry again? Multiple voices engage with these questions and provide understanding on adult clergy sexual abuse.
Guests
Dr. Moriah Smothers Dr. Moriah Smothers is an Associate Professor of Teacher Education and a former elementary special education teacher. She is also a survivor of adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA). Dr. Jack Smothers is a Professor of Management and a secondary survivor. Their heart is to help other ACSA survivors find healing and community. They are passionate about educating church leaders to identify, prevent and respond to ACSA. They have two children and have been married for 15 years. Show Transcript Coming soon
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What do you do when you feel called to start a ministry, but your pastor tells you not to? He says you’re not ready. You need to be under his authority. And your ministry must “complete,” not “compete,” with the local church.
That’s precisely what happened to Christy Boulware, author of Nervous Breakthrough: Finding Freedom from Fear and Anxiety in a World that Feeds It. And in this second part of Julie’s interview with Christy, she tells about how, after overcoming a severe panic and anxiety disorder, she wanted to help others—but her pastor stood in her way. This led to the painful discovery that her church was a “cult,” and her pastor was addicted to control.
This threw Christy into a tailspin and caused her to question her calling. But over time, with the help of wise friends, she and her husband realized they needed to leave their church and continue the ministry God had given her.
Christy’s is such a powerful story. And through it, she gives a helpful blueprint for how to discern spiritual abuse and escape it.
Guests
Christy Boulware Christy Boulware is an international speaker, author of Nervous Breakthrough, Bible study creator, and founder of Fearless Unite. She is happily married to the love of her life, Troy. They have three beautiful children together. Show Transcript SPEAKERSJULIE ROYS, CHRISTY BOULWARE
JULIE ROYS 00:04What do you do when you feel called to start a ministry, but your pastor tells you not to? He says you’re not ready. You need to be under his authority, and your ministry must complete, not compete with the local church. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and what I just described happened to Christy Boulware, author of Nervous Breakthrough: Finding Freedom From Fear and Anxiety in a World That Feeds It. For a decade, Christy’s biggest nemesis was severe anxiety and panic disorder. But once she got well she found she had another obstacle, her own pastor . This threw Christy into a tailspin and caused her to question her own calling. But over time, she and her husband realized that they were being spiritually abused. They also realized that the church where Christy at first found Jesus and gotten saved, was also very cult like and harmful. Then the second part of my discussion with Christy, she tells her story of experiencing church hurt. And I believe there’s so many great lessons in this story about how to handle spiritual abuse and its aftermath.
So, I’m really looking forward to sharing this conversation with you. But first, I’d like to thank our sponsors, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.
We now resume my conversation with Christy Boulware, author of Nervous Breakthrough: Finding Freedom From Fear and Anxiety in a World That Feeds It.
JULIE ROYS I know that once you got to a place of feeling healthy, and God had brought you through this, you had an excitement, to share that with others. And that’s really how God works. The comfort that He’s given us, He wants us to give others and so I think that’s such a beautiful desire. But as you began to step out in this, and this is so sad, you would hope that your pastor would be the person most excited about that and getting behind it and blessing it. And I hate to say this, but I think especially when it’s women stepping out in ministry, very often they don’t find their pastor blessing it. And that was your situation. Tell us that story of and you don’t really touch on it in your book. But I know that’s a bigger part of your story. When your pastor really wasn’t thrilled.
CHRISTY BOULWARE 03:59 Yeah, I actually had a warning sign that I missed. So, I was about 18 months into my recovery journey and tapped into this local church doing really well making friends, things were going great. I started sharing my testimony, they had given me an opportunity to share my testimony. I was blogging and doing a little bit of speaking about it. And so, this was around June of 2015. So, the breakdown happens in 2011 and June of 2015. I just was starting to feel this prompting to start a support group for other women that were struggling with the same thing that I struggled with. And I asked my friend who, my very good friend who actually was the pastor’s wife for advice about this feeling that I was having didn’t know what to do with them. And she just said, let me talk to my husband, which was our pastor. And she comes back to me and she said that. Here’s what he said. He said Christy, you need to aim longer before you fire. And I just paused. And she just said, basically what he’s trying to say is you’re not ready to start a ministry, Christy. And I got off of that phone call just completely crushed, and so confused, too. And I took this hunting analogy to my husband because he’s a big hunter too. And I said, Troy, this is what she said to me, this is what Pastor said to me, what do you think? What do you think I should do? And it was this moment, I’ll just never forget it. Troy just boldly and confidently said, No, if you aim too long, you’ll miss. It’s time to start this ministry. And I was like, All right, let’s do it then. Let’s start it. So, here’s what’s so crazy, Julie. Fearless Women was what it was called before, we’ve now rebranded as Fearless Unite. But it started in a library with 38 women in attendance, and it grew rapidly. And churches started to hear about it and other churches started partnering with us. And before we knew it, we were doing these monthly meetings where 200 or 300 women were showing up at it. And by the end of 2015, we were a legal 501 C 3, and we became a nonprofit organization.
So, part of the programming that we offered was these local community events that were completely free. The support groups that kind of outgrew the support group mentality, because so many people were coming to it. So, we started putting together programming called Impact groups. Now what these were, they were fear and anxiety Bible video studies that were written and produced by myself, but also our Fearless team. So that was interesting. I got called into the pastor’s office. Yeah, I got called into the pastor’s office.
JULIE ROYS 06:44I’m feeling anxiety right now. I’ve experienced this. But okay, yes.
CHRISTY BOULWARE 06:48What smoke alarms are going off right now? So, I got called into the pastor’s office, this was early 2017. And my husband was with me for this meeting. And we had these, like, kind of three major big ideas that he was explaining to us in the meeting. And the first was, God’s work must be done God’s way. And he used II Samuel 6, the Ark of the Covenant. And as you recall, in that story, Usiah, I think is how you say his name, he died for touching the Ark. And we began to get this underlying feeling that he was saying, You’re messing with God’s way by not doing it the way that we want you, like, I want you to do it. And so, he didn’t come out and say, You’re gonna die. But there were these implications of using that scripture to make us understand that God’s work must be done God’s way.
Now, the next big idea that he gave us was parachurch ministry, which is what Fearless Women was a parachurch ministry is not in the Bible. So, he just told us parachurch ministry is not in the Bible. So, he then said, we’ll support parachurch ministry if you’re doing something that we don’t do, or can’t do, and it was built under biblical government. And then this big idea was said, Christy, don’t compete with the church, complete the church. And I was super confused after that point. And then we got to one of the, there was lots of points. But these were the three main ideas that really hit my husband and I. The last one was God works through authority. And so, he used John 10 1,3, but then also, verse seven, I’m just going to read it to you, it says, Then Jesus said to them again, Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. And then he gave us two points after that. He said, God gives the senior pastor, he said, senior pastor, a flock. And then the second one is the door, in and out, is through the pastor. Needless to say, my husband and I had a lot to think about a lot to pray through. And truthfully, Julie I left that meeting feeling so confused, and conflicted, controlled. I also felt like we were doing something wrong, I felt like we were being disobedient to his authority. And it was incredibly difficult to process through that.
JULIE ROYS 09:16Let me pause you there. Because there’s so much to unpack and what you just said. One, going back to you not being ready. Almost in a way, and I’m guessing being ready would be the pastor telling you you’re ready, which would put him in control of when you’re ready. But it also, and this might be a strong word to call the curse. But it’s almost like saying, it’s going at you as a person. It reminds me of I remember when I was in my late 20s, wanting to step out in a ministry and I had a pastor look at me and say, Julie, you’re not a visionary leader. And I remember at the time just being like so puzzled by that because I had already started like two different ministries at this point, and I’m like, how am I not a visionary leader? And he’s like, Well, I can’t go into detail like I can give you the book. And I could go through all the points, but you’re just not. I remember just coming back home, and it was my husband who looked at me and said, “That’s insane. Of course, you’re a visionary leader, like you’ve started all these things like, how could you do that if you’re not a visionary leader? I mean, I don’t know what they mean by that. But don’t receive that, Julie. And I’m like, Okay.
CHRISTY BOULWARE 10:18Thank you, Lord, for an amazing husband.
JULIE ROYS 10:21I know. And what’s sad too, is that as women, I think our fallen condition is that we tend to be bent towards men that we don’t look straight up into the Father’s eyes, which is what we really do need to do. And it’s wonderful when you can have a man bless you, like we had our husbands bless us. But often the men won’t. And sometimes we need to just be able to look directly. And we do need to be able to look into the Father’s eyes and say, who have you made me? And what are you calling me to do? And our identity has to come directly from Jesus, because otherwise, we will be paralyzed, and we won’t be able to move out and what he’s calling us to do.
CHRISTY BOULWARE 10:56You gotta preach, Julie.
JULIE ROYS 10:57I think it’s important to name those things, right? Because we do and as women, I hate to say it, but it comes so often, because we’re a threat to somebody in spiritual authority sees us as a threat. And I don’t know what it is about strong women, but we just make these men go, they do, they just, they get so threatened. And that’s what I hear in your story.
But then the authority and control using scripture the way that he did, and to say Jesus doesn’t say that the pastor is the gate. Jesus says, I’m the gate, right? They enter, and I know my sheep, and they hear My voice, and they recognize my voice, because their mine. And he’s put himself what he did in that conversation is put himself in as Jesus, which is frightening. But that is what so often happens. And so, I know there’s people listening right now that are probably, you know, there’s bells going off because they’ve had this happen. But it’s devastating to us in the moment. It is so confusing, because we’re hearing, the confusion is not because oh, what our pastor is saying the spiritual authority saying is true, but because we’ve heard something from our father, our father has called us and has commissioned us to do something. And yet we have these earthly voices that should be, you know, blessing that and instead saying, No, you can’t be getting that right. And so, it puts us into a tailspin. So how did you work through this?
CHRISTY BOULWARE 12:28Lots and lots of prayer. But I think one of the biggest things was we asked for his notes. We said, “Can you please put in writing what you taught us that day? Because we’re very confused, and we would like to study it out ourselves. Can you put the scriptures down? Can you put the notes down? So, we received the notes that he taught us that day, and we felt led to go seek wise counsel. Now what’s important about this wise counsel, and if anybody’s listening, it was outside of our local church. We sought console outside of our local church. And the beautiful thing is the Lord had blessed us with so many partnerships of other churches with what Fearless was doing at the time, that it was very easy for me to find a neighboring community of an elder of a lead pastor, that I could have a sit-down talk with. So, I sent the notes over to this pastor, my husband and I and this pastor and his wife, we sat down over a nice lunch, and I’ll never forget it, Julie, he just very boldly and bluntly said, Christy, we reviewed your pastor’s notes, and we think you’re in a cult. And we think that he is using scripture to manipulate and to control you. And I remember even the pastor’s wife that day was like, oh, no, no, but we could say this a little nicer kind of thing. And you know, we don’t we’re not trying to hurt your feelings. And he’s like no, I don’t know how else to say this. I don’t know how much easier like how to say this. And I remember us leaving that going, no, this can’t be true. We love our pastor, like we believe in him, like just know, like, Ah, this can’t be true. So, but then we had to just really wrestle with that.
JULIE ROYS 14:09Boy, I love what you did. It reminds me of the Bereans, right? Who, even the apostle Paul, took what he was teaching them, they searched the Scriptures to see if what he told them was true. And I think so often people that are in hyper controlling churches or cultic churches, which as I think over the past decade, the definition of cult has changed where it used to be it has to have some sort of heretical doctrine at the core of it. And I think people are realizing no, you can have an orthodox, very biblically Orthodox Church, it can still be cultic because of the control. And because of the place of the pastor, and because of these things. Thank God, that you were able to find someone who was able to discern that. But wow, that’s when you’ve been, how long have you been at the church at that point?
CHRISTY BOULWARE 15:00So, since 2007, that’s when I raised my hand and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. So now what we’re at 2017 when that conversation took place, yeah.
JULIE ROYS 15:08Wow. So, you’ve been there a decade. And you hear this, and this is your community. So how did you process it?
CHRISTY BOULWARE 15:16We still believe the best and our pastor, and we asked for one more in person sit down meeting with him. And so, we did. And it was my husband and I and his wife, and we sat down. And we wanted to take a humble approach. Because what if we were wrong, Julie? We hadn’t been to seminary, we didn’t have all this extra knowledge, you know. So, it’s like, gosh, what if we were wrong? And we wanted to believe the best in him. But here’s what’s interesting. My husband, we’re talking about our strong husbands. He prayed this very simple prayer as we walked in, and we were holding hands together. And he said, Lord, show us what we need to see. That was it. Just show us what we need to see. And so, our first topic of discussion when we sat down was that my pastor wanted to go over the biblical government that our parachurch ministry had. And he asked, do we have a lead pastor on our board? And we were genuinely curious. It was like, no pastor. I mean, we don’t have a lead pastor on our board of directors, but we have a pastor. And we’re curious, like, why does it matter if it’s a lead pastor? And he started to use this analogy that lead pastors know how to bench press more.
JULIE ROYS 16:27Sorry, wow! Okay. Okay.
CHRISTY BOULWARE 16:32Could bench press more. And so of course, we were dismayed. And we’re just but again, we have so much respect for this man and love that we were just still trying to process it all out. And again, remember, since parachurch ministry is not in the Bible, the only way you would support it would be under biblical government doing things that the church wasn’t doing, and if I wasn’t competing with the church. So again, he was trying to make a case for the biblical government, which just led us into that next area of concern was how he didn’t feel like it was right that we were producing, and leading out small groups, which is what I called Impact groups, and that was competing with the church. And so, I remembered Christine Caine had just spoke at our church. And she does propel groups. And propel groups were exactly like what our impact groups were. We were creating biblical, small group material, that were helping people overcome fear and anxiety. It was a meeting and need in the church because fear and anxiety is an epidemic right now. And there were so many people that would love to be in a Bible study about fear and anxiety. And we were producing these and putting these out.
So, I asked him, I said, Well, we just had Christine Caine here. And she does propel groups. And we’re okay with that. And Dave Ramsey, he does Financial Peace groups. And I said, I’m just trying to do something similar to this, and not compete with the church, but just meet a need in the church to disciple to hurting women that are struggling with the same thing. And interesting that you had brought up that scripture in Corinthians, comfort, comfort others with the same comfort God has given you. That was the key verse for our impact groups, it was, God had comforted me, I was going to turn right back around and comfort others.
Julie, he wasn’t really happy with my line of questioning and responses at that point. And the conversation started to go a little bit south, and we wanted to keep it holy. And I just said to him, I said pastor, I can tell that we’re not going to agree on this topic here. So, can we just agree to disagree here? Or is this the end of the road for us? And I’ll never forget this, Julie. He looked right at my husband and I, and he just said, this is the end of the road for you. You will not be supported if you continue. And just like that, the place that I found Jesus, by the man who led me to Christ, we were no longer welcomed in our church anymore. And I left that meeting completely devastated with my heart in a million pieces. And my husband, on the other hand, just had a smile on his face. And he said, Thank you, God for showing us what we need to see.
JULIE ROYS 19:08Wow. I haven’t told this story yet. And I will just allude to it now because I haven’t fully felt released to tell it. But I have friends who were told that if they persisted in something they were doing, they could no longer take communion within a church. And I thank God that they listened to the voice of God, and not the pastor at that point who was not speaking the words of God. And I’m just struck that whole senior pastor thing. There’s no biblical basis for that. And where is the priesthood of all believers? Yeah, that is such a control move, but so glad that you were able to discern rightly, what was going on. Wow, I can only imagine the devastation you must have felt. I mean, there’s one thing to know in your head. God’s calling me to do this. I’m sure there had to have still been some degree of doubt, because that’s just how we work as human beings. When you have a spiritual authority, say something like that to you, it’s hard. It’s hard to take. And it messes with you inside. Even if in your head, you say that was BS. I know, it’s somewhere deep down. You know what you’re doing is, right. You have that conviction. But at the same time, you’ve got that kind of messing with you.
I guess you could apply the same thing you were talking about the anxiety, snowballing thoughts where you had to take this thought captive now and these doubts captive, but walk me through the process coming out of that emotionally, spiritually? That’s got to take to some degree your legs out from under you. Or did it? Maybe you were just like, so confirmed that you just shot right out of the gate? I don’t know.
CHRISTY BOULWARE 20:46Oh, heck no.
JULIE ROYS 20:48Maybe I’m projecting but yeah, how did you deal with it?
CHRISTY BOULWARE 20:51My husband was very strong. He was so grateful. And for me, this is where I found the Lord. This was where all my dearest friends were. I lost all kinds of friends. I felt so lonely, depressed, incredibly anxious. You’re right. The self-doubt raged in my mind. What if I’m wrong? What if I’m being disobedient? What if I’m rebellious? What if I am in direct contradiction of God’s word? I want to honor God’s word. So, it was like this mind game of questioning my calling, who I am, what I should be doing. I mean, it was excruciating.
But I do, I think there’s some things that we did right, and some things that I think we did wrong. And what we did right was we stood up for ourselves, we stood up for ourselves, and we did not allow ourselves to be manipulated and controlled. And we refuse to slander and gossip, even though all of that was being done for us at Facebook and the things that were being said, and this behind-the-scenes conversations that would later come back to us. I was just floored by the amount of just deception and just straight up slander and things about our character that just were not true.
Another thing we did right is we took a while before we jumped into a new church home. And when we did feel called to move on to a new church home, we did sit down with the leadership of that church and asked, What are your thoughts on parachurch ministry because we didn’t want to get ourselves. We found that they were with open arms excited to take in this parachurch ministry, were championing, welcoming, cheering it on in a very healthy way. So that was good. Another thing is we took some time before we started serving. We really needed healing. And we didn’t just jump right into serving again.
Some things we did wrong, Julie, this situation felt like a divorce. Now, I’ve not walked through a divorce. But I’ve walked through many dear friends that have had to walk through a divorce. And it’s so incredibly painful. I mean, the place that I fell in love with Jesus Christ is the place that wounded me. That made me second guess and question everything that I’m doing and feel called to do. And so that just created an enormous amount of anxiety in me and again, losing all these friends. And I became obsessed, literally obsessed with trying to figure out why God allowed this to happen. And I wasted too much time being distracted by that. And I was worried about it constantly. I think something else that we did wrong is I didn’t get counseling soon enough. I just didn’t. And I’m in counseling now. But I’m learning that even so long ago, this is 2017 that I am still disentangling myself from bad theology that was imposed on me for years and years. Even in my new church, a healthy church, where I’m my counselors, I need you to take church off of an idol here, Christy and I need you to ask yourself, are you codependent on your pastor’s covering right now? And so, ah! all these really big ideas that I’m working through myself right now that are going all the way back to 2017. And I wish I would have gotten into counseling sooner, because it’s affected the way I view church. It’s affected the way I view pastors; it’s affected the way I view church, people, and community.
And this last one might sound a little funny, but I forgave too fast. And here’s what I mean by this. When I was in therapy, my therapist said to me, Christy, you cannot forgive what you haven’t acknowledged. And I thought, oh, so then she gives me this worksheet where I have this five-page worksheet, and I have to work through the four stages of forgiveness, and part of it is writing down why you were hurt. And when they said XYZ to you, how did that make you feel? and when this person betrayed you through and it was like a ripple effect because it wasn’t just my pastor I needed to forgive it was the pastor’s wife. And then it was the friends that betrayed me. And it was like this ripple effect of forgiveness that needed to be put out, but I needed to walk through the stages of forgiveness first, to truly forgive. I think I was just like, oh, yeah, I forgive them. That’s what you’re supposed to do. That’s what Christians do you forgive. But really deep down, I was still bitter. I was still hurt. I was still wounded and had not worked through that forgiveness properly.
JULIE ROYS 25:09What a wise counselor you had.
CHRISTY BOULWARE 25:11Oh, amazing.
JULIE ROYS 25:13Yeah, that’s wonderful. And that is a gift. And I’m curious because you said this covering? Did you have the umbrellas of authority that were like the Gothard thing going on, or something similar?
CHRISTY BOULWARE 25:24I’m watching Shiny Happy People right now, too. And I’m just like, I can’t wait to see my gosh, it’s giving me anxiety. I was never shown like a picture of umbrella or covering. But this idea of spiritual authority that you had to run to or be over like your pastor was the person that you needed to check in with, was absolutely under woven in all of it for sure.
JULIE ROYS 25:48Wow. Well, I’m very grateful. I did not grow up in that. I grew up in a very conservative Christian church, but it was not fundamentalist. And my mother was a very strong spiritual force. And she was our superintendent of Sunday schools in the church I grew up in, and I had a pastor who gloriously did not feel threatened by my mother, and just was able to bless her. Now they moved when I was in college, from Pennsylvania to Kentucky, and then that stopped. And she couldn’t really minister after that. And that was really sad for me to watch. But I have said many times, I’m so grateful for that heritage that I was given. Because when I saw spiritual abuse happening, when I began to experience it, yes, there was self-doubt, there was all of that. But I also knew, it’s like what they say, with dollar bills. If you’re trying to figure out a counterfeit, you look at the real, you study the real, and I grew up in the real, and I’m so blessed, I know I’m so blessed by it. I thank God for it. Because I see so much of the non-rail right now, in the work that I do that I’m just I’m so grateful that I know the real exists, I love the church. I couldn’t stay in this work if I didn’t love the church, because I’ve seen how beautiful it can be. And I’ve seen how beautifully it raises the next generation within it. But we’re just really gotten a foul of it because of and sadly, a lot of it is due to these pastors who are into building their kingdom, and not the kingdom of God and controlling and you cannot control what God is doing. It is completely outside of your control, but the Holy Spirit, you don’t know where it comes from. And you don’t know where it’s going. But you better get on his agenda. Because if you’re trying to steer yours, you are going to just shipwreck everything. And we’re seeing that happen all over the church right now.
And I know, and we’re running out of time. So, I have to get to our last question. But we could talk so long on this. But I know right now there are people listening, who have had all of the same things that you’re talking about happen to them maybe, and then some and the spiritual abuse and the confusion and the pain and all of that they’re in the midst of this. And that’s what with so much of the interviews so many of the interviews I do., it’s that abuse that they’ve experienced, sadly, in the church that is causing so much of their anxiety and their trauma. So, would you just speak that person who right now is feeling really stuck in the midst of the aftermath of this kind of church hurt situation?
CHRISTY BOULWARE 28:29I think understanding that you can be understood. I think that’s so important. And that church hurt is so excruciating, I think sometimes we sweep it under the rug, like it’s just not that big of a deal, or it doesn’t hurt that bad or I mean, it’s truly one of the deepest pains I have ever walked through. Even going through suicidal thoughts and a nervous breakdown. It was so painful. So, I think I just want to tell you, I get you, I understand you. If you’re on the other line listening, gosh, I’m so sorry for the pain that you’ve experienced.
And I think I just have three little pieces of advice. The first one would be don’t stay in an abusive situation. Please go seek wise counsel outside of your church community. And ask God pray, ask him to give you wisdom and discernment because oh my goodness, he will. Like you said with the dollars I didn’t grow up where I knew the real so I couldn’t tell there was a counterfeit and that’s why it was making it so difficult. But God was so faithful to provide the people at the right places at the right time because my heart was bent towards truth. I wanted to know the truth and he gave me the truth. And do not please man. Please God. That’s what we’re here for; please God first above all else, and then get help for the hurt. I wish I would have gotten help sooner. I love Julie that you’re doing The Restore. I think your conferences what you’re doing with that is just so beautiful. So go to one of her conferences, go get into therapy, get help. And then this last one is probably the most difficult for me to say. But it’s just remember that God still uses imperfect people. And sometimes that just doesn’t make sense. And here’s a little story. I was recently interviewing someone for a marketing position that’s available in our organization. And one of our interview questions was just tell me how you found the Lord. And she tells me the story about how she accepted Jesus as her Lord and Savior in this most beautiful, glorious way, and how God was working in her life. And guess what? It’s through the same man that hurt me in the same church, that we were asked to leave. And I just thought, oh, my gosh, and I was so conflicted in my flesh in that moment, and the Lord led me to Philippians 1:15 – 18. And it’s when Paul’s talking about okay, look, some people are going to preach out of envy and rivalry, and some are going to do it out of goodwill. And then it goes down in verse 18, it says, but what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached, and because of this, I will rejoice. Yes, I will continue to rejoice. So what I’m not saying is you shouldn’t address church hurt, or you shouldn’t address control or manipulation, like you absolutely should do it. But do it in a Christ honoring way. But remember, that God still use an imperfect people to reach people for His glory.
JULIE ROYS 31:39Yeah, and that’s a tough one. But it is true. I’ve had a number of people process; I came to the Lord through this abusive person. I came to the Lord through somebody who I don’t even know is a believer at this point. And does that mean that you didn’t truly come to the Lord? No. That doesn’t mean that . The Lord has met you and praise God that He can use a donkey so he can use a bad pastor.
Christy, thank you so much. And thank you for mentioning Restore again, that’s coming up October 13 and 14th at Judson University, and early bird tickets are still available for Restore. But it is a wonderful two-day conference where so many other survivors come together and find healing. But not just survivors. And I’m really encouraged. I was excited at our last Restore, we had a number of pastors come, we had a number of seminarians come. And it does grieve me that I find so many pastors like if you do a conference on how to grow your church big and how to be successful man, they will flock. But to come and hear from survivors? to come and hear about how to handle church hurt? or how to respond when somebody comes to you and says, I’ve been sexually abused? to find out those things, how to really shepherd and care for your sheep. Often pastors aren’t very interested in that, because that doesn’t bring in the dollars and the people and the noses and all those things. So, I really encourage you, if you’re listening, and you’re in a position of spiritual leadership, at a church or a para church, I really encourage you to consider coming to Restore. And those of you who are hurting, wonderful place to find healing. Again, it’s RESTORE2023.COM. You can find out more about that.
But Christy, thank you so much. This was just such a great discussion, and I so enjoyed your book, but even more so being able to talk with you. So, thank you.
CHRISTY BOULWARE 33:38Thank you so much.
JULIE ROYS 33:39And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’ve appreciated this podcast, would you please consider supporting the work we do at The Roys Report? As I’ve said before, we don’t have any big donors or advertising, we simply have you the people who care about telling other survivors stories, exposing wrongdoing, bringing healing, and restoring the church. Also, this month when you give a gift of $30 or more, we’ll send you a copy of Christy’s book Nervous Breakthrough. It’s such a great resource and I’m so excited to make it available to you to donate and get a copy of nervous breakthrough. Just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged.
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Fear and anxiety are gripping society today. A stunning 42.5 million Americans are diagnosed with anxiety disorders each year. Nearly 800,000 people worldwide die by suicide each year. Repeatedly, Jesus said fear not. But let’s face it, many of us are finding that increasingly difficult.
In this edition of The Roys Report, you’ll hear from someone who knows about fear and anxiety firsthand. In 2011, Christy Boulware suffered a debilitating panic attack. Then she experienced vision issues, paralysis, and hospitalization. At one point, she couldn’t get out of her bedroom, so her mom had to help her care for her own kids.
Prior to this, Christy had been ‘superwoman,’ excelling personally and professionally at most everything she did. But out of nowhere, fear and panic rendered her unable to do even basic tasks, and she was on the verge of suicide. If you’ve struggled with fear and anxiety, you’re going to find Christy’s story of how she overcame a severe panic and anxiety disorder extremely helpful.
But there’s another battle Christy has fought that many listeners to this podcast will relate to: her battle against spiritual abuse and control. In fact, for many of you, your fear and anxiety is due to spiritual abuse or church hurt. What Christy learned through her process was painful, and it reveals powerful truths for us all.
Guests
Christy Boulware Christy Boulware is an international speaker, author of Nervous Breakthrough, Bible study creator, and founder of Fearless Unite. She is happily married to the love of her life, Troy. They have three beautiful children together. Show Transcript
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- Show Transcript
Hillsong Church has been embroiled in a steady stream of scandals, exposing sexual and financial misconduct—and a toxic and exploitative leadership culture. So, should we still be singing their worship songs? Or should we re-think our song selection and worship sets?
In this podcast, Julie continues her dialogue with two collaborators of a groundbreaking new study on modern worship. And in this second of a two-part conversation, we explore the scandals surrounding the megachurches producing so many of our worship songs.
As we discussed in part one of our discussion, the new study found that almost all the top worship songs, being sung in churches across America, are produced by just four megachurches. They are Hillsong, Bethel, Elevation, and Passion City Church.
Now, the two study collaborators, Elias Dummer and Dr. Shannan Baker, join me for part two, where we discuss the scandals at these incredibly influential megachurches and implications of using their creative content. Elias is a singer/songwriter who’s also worked in marketing and research. And Shannan is a post-doctoral research fellow at Baylor University, who’s studying contemporary worship. So, they know this subject matter extremely well and were able to provide valuable insights.
At some points, though, we disagreed strongly. But Scripture tells us that “iron sharpens iron” (Proverbs 27:17) and we believe that this kind of challenging discussion helps all of us think more critically and deeply.
GuestsDr. Shannan BakerDr. Shannan Baker is a postdoctoral research fellow at Baylor University, where she recently received the Outstanding Dissertation Award for the Humanities. Her research focuses on contemporary worship. She explores the theology of the text, the music and industry of the songs, and its practice in the church. Her hope is that her research will edify the body of Christ by finding practical applications for the worship life of the church.Elias DummerElias Dummer, a native of Ontario, Canada, and current resident of Nashville, Tenn., is passionate about the local church. A founding member of The City Harmonic, he was lead singer and songwriter for the contemporary Christian band which disbanded in 2017 after eight years together. Recently, he helped plant a church near Nashville and has released a two-part solo album entitled The Work.Show TranscriptELIAS DUMMER, JULIE ROYS, SHANNON BAKER, PhD
JULIE ROYS 00:04Hillsong Church has been embroiled in a steady stream of scandals exposing sexual and financial misconduct and a toxic and exploitative leadership culture. So, should we still be singing their worship songs? Or should we be rethinking everything, including our worship sets? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And this is part two of my discussion of a groundbreaking new study on modern worship with two study collaborators Elias Dummer and Dr. Shannon Baker. Elias is a singer songwriter who’s also worked in marketing and research. And Shannon is a postdoctoral research fellow at Baylor University who’s studying contemporary worship. In part one, we explored how almost all the top worship songs being sung in churches across America are produced by just four mega churches. They are Hillsong, Bethel, Elevation, and Passion City Church. It was a fascinating discussion exploring the history and development of the modern worship movement. And I encourage you if you haven’t already, go back and listen to that podcast. But in part two, we talk about the scandals these incredibly influential mega churches had been involved in and what that means for worship pastors and congregants. Ours was a very lively discussion, and at some points, we disagreed strongly. But I believe we generated more light than heat. And so, I’m really excited to share this podcast with you.
But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. Judson University is a top ranked Christian University providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Plus, the school offers more than 60 majors great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.com.
Well, again, joining me to discuss some of the difficult issues surrounding the worship industry, and the songs that we sing every week in church, are Elias Dummer and Dr. Shannon Baker. We pick up our discussion with my explanation of the conundrum I feel in singing worship songs produced by mega churches like Hillsong, which seem so corrupt.
This worship was making Brian and Bobby Houston, the founders of Hillsong, rich. It was enriching their son Joel, who was heading up Hillsong worship. In fact, Joel Houston wrote The Stand. And I watched the video, and it was from 12 years ago, I watched it last night. And honestly, I am even now thinking about it. It’s hard for me, because that song, I remember singing, right? I remember being moved by that song. And I’m seeing people on this video clearly impacted singing worship to the Lord. And yet right now it turns my stomach. There’s no way that the people at the top didn’t know what was going on, and what they were participating in. How do we process so much of this? Let’s just look at Hillsong first, and let me just ask you Elias; today, would you play a Hillsong song at your church?
ELIAS DUMMER 03:39Without hesitation.
JULIE ROYS 03:41You would play one?
ELIAS DUMMER 03:41Absolutely.
JULIE ROYS 03:42Okay.
ELIAS DUMMER 03:43I think if you start to go down that road, you may as well rip two thirds of the Psalms out of the Bible. David was an accused rapists for all intents and purposes.
SHANNON BAKER, PhD 03:54And murderer.
ELIAS DUMMER 03:55And murderer. Paul, once upon a time murderer. I think it’s also really easy to look and see a shared last name and assume that everything Joel did, it’s an impossible game to win. And we’ve all worked in and alongside larger institutions. And while there are cultural facets that play out if that’s very true, I think the specifics matter. The sort of Whack a Mole boogeyman thing doesn’t work because it is so often distraction to solving the real problems. I’ll give you a really specific example. In the Hillsong documentary that came out a couple of years ago, I guess now, the last episode of that documentary, the focus on the assaults and the cover ups. That was really the meat of what that thing should have been the entire time. And probably because of the way that Netflix distribution deals work, they had to make three episodes. I’ve been in the media world we all know how this works. They made three episodes out of a one-episode, important conversation piece. And what they filled almost an entire episode with discussions about manipulative music. When in reality, not manipulative music most people would consider to be bad music. Like we literally go to music to be emotionally manipulated. We go to all music for that purpose.
And so, it is a tricky thing because we engage music, we love the art, the art does something in us psychologically, neurologically, and emotionally. And then we come out of that, inferring upon its author all kinds of trust, and goodwill and assumption, in most cases, that may or may not be fair. Like, O Holy Night; people love O Holy Night. I might be wrong about this. But I had heard it was written by a guy who’s not a believer at all. So, we have to be really careful with assuming that art and its author always have this direct relationship to its use. I think we’ll be sorely disappointed in the Bible’s authors; we’ll be sorely disappointed in the authors of the Psalms, and we’ll be left with very little to do if we’re looking for humans that aren’t complex to create art. May as well the AI do the rest.
JULIE ROYS 06:07A lot there. Let me push back a little bit. Because I hear the David thing all the time, right? I think one of the things we forget about David is that he was punished. His firstborn with Bathsheba was killed, the Lord took his life. We also forget that David repented. And I haven’t seen repentance from the Houston’s.
ELIAS DUMMER 06:30But we don’t strike the pre repentant Psalms from the Bible.
JULIE ROYS 06:33No, but I’m saying what we see in David is someone that the Lord called a man after his own heart, and part of being a man after his own heart, was how he responded to sin. And he was very repentant in what happened. And when I report these stories, people often say, what are you hoping for? I’m hoping for repentance. I’m not hoping for things to burn down. I’m hoping for the leaders to repent. I have yet to see it.
ELIAS DUMMER 06:59You and I are on the same. I mean, my wife and I had this conversation not too long ago. I’ve had eight senior pastors in my life that I’ve served under or alongside. Of those eight, three are no longer pastors because of something related to sexual sin or adultery or similar things. So, it’s not like I don’t understand what it means to see the scale of the problem. That’s not what I’m saying at all. What I’m saying is, we can’t take for granted like, what is it that Joel Houston is supposed to be? It’s a leap, for example, to say, because this happened at the top, and they share a last name, it must mean that he knew what was going on, it might.
JULIE ROYS 07:37if you look at the whistleblower documents that have come out, the enriching that was going on, was throughout the entire organization.
ELIAS DUMMER 07:45And I’ll give you an example, the reporting on that scandal about a month ago, I believe, indicated as one of its big whistleblower elements, that Hillsong had paid a million dollars in royalties to Joel Houston. And this was treated as one of the negative components. The crazy thing about that is Hillsong was legally obligated to pay those royalties to Joel Houston. They were collected through ASCAP and BMI and these sorts of things. And Joel and Hillsong as the song publisher, now we can have a conversation about that. But Hillsong as the song publisher couldn’t keep the money, it had to go to Joel.
JULIE ROYS 08:20And that’s the way things were set up. I will say right now.
ELIAS DUMMER 08:22That’s how songwriting works.
JULIE ROYS 08:24I don’t know why that wasn’t happening, as I understand, with Vineyard when they were doing it.
ELIAS DUMMER 08:29It’s kind of that’s a different conversation, then. Yeah, yeah, question of whether songs are tracked. And whether the whether $1 exists, that’s never the question. Somebody somewhere made a few bucks. And in the days of Fanny Crosby, it was the hymn publisher who made the money, and it just didn’t happen to flow down all that often. So, there is and always is money in the distribution of goods right? Now, our relationship to that I’m not taking that for granted as good. That’s not my point. My point is that we want to say, the way it is now is uniquely evil. I think it’s different. And I think it’s complicated. And I think if we don’t deal with the specifics, then our efforts to deal with what looks like the problem end up being a little more than hot noise and white noise, that we never deal with the real thing because it’s too easy to dismiss. And Hillsong is filled with examples where that documentary was a perfect example. Somebody could go and what are you talking about? Listen, all music moves me. And then the credibility of the documentary is shot. The documentary has spent an hour talking about something that’s easily dismissed before addressing a thing that’s very much a problem.
JULIE ROYS 09:38I’m not arguing that. Yeah, and I’m not arguing in favor, I think Hillsong there’s been a lot of documentaries made and they’re made by organizations that, frankly, don’t understand half the time. The media organizations they may be trying to do their job, or they may be trying to sensationalize.
ELIAS DUMMER 09:54But there’s a lot of information missing.
JULIE ROYS 09:56But there often is, and this is my thing with so much of the media when they report on evangelicalism. They don’t understand evangelicalism, they don’t understand the church. And so, they don’t, I don’t think they do it well, and they often miss it. And sometimes they do it very well. But sometimes they don’t.
But I cannot overlook how big and how much money is being exchanged. And when we talk about these four churches again, the whistleblower documents that were released what it showed, and it called the whistleblower themselves who came from within Hillsong this wasn’t an outsider, this was an insider, called something called the celebrity preacher scam. This whole, you invite me to your church, my church will pay you an exorbitant honorarium, then I’ll invite you to my church, we’ll pay you an exorbitant honorarium. We’ll give you first class or business class travel, we’ll put you up in the best hotels, and who’s the honorarium going to? It’s coming from the church from donors money, but it’s going to the particular pastor who’s coming to speak. And when we look at these four churches, here we go. Hillsong is a number one mega church that’s driving all of this. I would say, it’s so much of this worship music. Louie Giglio of Passion was a regular speaker at Hillsong, pulling honorariums between $5000, which may seem reasonable to $35,000 Australian dollars for each engagement. Bill Johnson, head of Bethel spoke at Hillsong least four times between 2019-2020 making between $5000-$28,000 a speaking engagement that’s in Australian dollars. Steven Furtick, of Elevation Church spoke at Hillsong, at least once. Again, these aren’t the whistleblower documents aren’t comprehensive of everything. it’s what was reported and what we have, but at least once was paid $14,000 to speak at Hillsong. But of course, we know Steven Furtick lives in a 16,000 square foot, multimillion dollar house. I am looking at that seeing in Scripture that you’re right, money isn’t evil, but the love of money is. And when you see these kinds of huge honorariums going to the head of these churches. And you see the kind of collusion when you’re talking about, you can say there’s nothing evil about that. But how much has money perverted, and this is the question, I guess, when we get right down to it, is how much has money and the love of money, perverted not just these churches and the way they’re operating, but the worship industry itself? Because let’s look at the four most powerful churches that influence the songs that we sing. And are they even living in a godly manner? How would Jesus feel if he came today, to those churches? Would he be flipping the tables? Would he be?
ELIAS DUMMER 12:36Those are great questions. I mean, I think it’s a complicated space that we live in, and I Shannon hasn’t as much I’ve lived in that space for the last 20 years. There’s a couple of things to consider. This isn’t necessarily an apologist approach; I’m just throwing it out there. The way that the talent industry works, and the way that the music industry works, and whether we like it or not, that’s what we’re talking about here, talking about people who have managers and agents, and so on. And depending on their book publishing deal, depending on their record label deal, and how it all there’s people who have to share everything, it’s all percentage splits. So, if you are a speaker, and you have an agent, that agents probably taking anywhere from 10 to 15%, sometimes more, depending on their deal, you have a manager who’s taking 15 to 20%, sometimes more depending on the deal. And so, you’re looking at anywhere from a range of minimum 25% to 35-40%, going out the door immediately. So, every fee gets split, and then you’ve got costs on top of that. So even your $5,000 fee starts to look pretty unreasonable for the sort of black and white value that a speaker would bring to attending an event. And now that’s, of course, more true in the conference space than it is true in the local church environment. That’s a different ballgame. But at some point, it does get complicated and weird. You’re right. I will say in from my own life, I’m someone who has gone out of my way to set my life up so that I’m operating with integrity. To some people’s standards, I make good money. The reality is most of that money is made in my business ventures. So, what people don’t, it can be easy. And it’s helpful to have the real black and white documents, of course, but it can be easy to project onto Oh, the fees are there. Therefore, this is happening. When I think of Saddleback and that sort of thing, where the salary was $0. And his books were selling enough that the books bought his house multi times over. And Stephen Furtick’s case I know he’s often listed as a writer; we could talk about that. But at the end of the day, if he’s a writer on all of these big songs, to what extent is that the fruit of his work as a pastor speaker versus the fruit of his work as a creator and that sort of thing? I don’t know that I have the answer to that. I do share your discomfort with it. With the sort of sheer scale and the way that there is this ability to dictate the market when you have a big enough share of the market. That’s true in every market.
JULIE ROYS 15:01One thing, let me just when it comes to Steven Furtick, his name being on all the songs, interestingly, because I’ve spent a lot of time reporting on Harvest Bible Chapel. And James MacDonald was on some of those songs. Luke MacDonald was on a lot of them. I’m not sure what role they actually played on them. But I know when they set it up, you’re right, Vertical Worship, they will get a cut. I don’t know if they’re still getting a cut. I know they were. I also know that those contracts from talking to Josh Caterer who used to be a worship pastor there, but who had been in the music industry for a long time, before he became a believer, actually had a punk rock band. And he said, those were the most exploitative contracts he’d ever seen. In fact, he left because he wouldn’t sign it. But Furtick Yeah, he’s probably getting a commission on the music. Some might look at that and say, well, he wrote it, and he should be a part of it. Some might look at that and say, Well, isn’t that nice? He got his name on there, so he could get the royalty. There’s two ways to look at that.
ELIAS DUMMER 15:57I do know that he contributes to some songs very meaningfully. I’ll say that. He’s not a writer.
JULIE ROYS 16:01Okay. Let me say too, though, when you look at his house, we don’t know his salary, because they don’t disclose it. If you’re a secular nonprofit in the United States, you have to disclose your top wage earners. The only ones that don’t are churches. And why is it that a church, a religious nonprofit where you have people giving to God’s work, why should the leaders there be less accountable than your secular nonprofit? So, we don’t know what his salary is. But we do know that the people that set his salary, who are supposedly providing accountability, are other megachurch pastors. Who are the megachurch pastors that are setting a salary, and what are their salaries, what do they think is reasonable? And the fact that they won’t tell us there is no transparency. So that kind of transparency, like you’re teaching us some stuff about what’s happening in the music industry. But there is a lack of transparency across the board.
ELIAS DUMMER 16:51I totally agree. And I think that’s part of what motivates us a little bit, is the idea that I think we operate with a sort of naive mythos of what worship songs are, and partly evangelicals and Christians, maybe not at large, but evangelicals certainly have this sort of allergy to talking about business in business terms. So, we’re drawn to using spiritually veiling language instead of discussing money as money.
I think for me, part of what motivates me in this, and I’ve said this to Phil Wickham, when he asked why we’re doing this, it is, at the end of the day, I think it’s important that we talk about what is true so that we can solve real problems with real facts,. It is really hard if what we’re doing is talking about these ideals we hold about the things and not treating the participants as human beings and not taking for granted that basically caricature which isn’t quite what you’re doing in this case. But I agree with you in transparency, we need to be talking transparently about how money works in the music business, about how royalties work about how we discover songs, but what we really think about that sort of thing, and what we think about where worship songs come from, and why. And if we can have an honest conversation about that, then maybe we can shape an industry which is going to exist in some form, into something that we all feel better about. But if what we do instead, just like with senior pastors, is prop up a sort of mythology of the thing, then we can’t do that. It protects the status quo. Now our team is a bunch of participants. We’re not trying to take this thing down. That’s not at all what we’re trying to do. I probably trust the Joel Houston’s of the world more than you’re prone to do. And that’s fine. But it’s not because I think the sun shines out of something. It’s just as simple as saying, I think our relationship to art is complicated. And the industry, which we’re all forced to participate in, in doing this is also very complicated. And naivety around that is part of what contributes to the degree of hurt that so many of us experience.
JULIE ROYS 18:56Shannon, let me ask you, when we’re talking about some tough things, and I liked that this conversation has gotten real. I think it’s healthy to have this kind of back and forth. But as you look at scripture and principles, what should be guiding us as we do try to evaluate this industry and these kinds of issues that we’re talking about?
SHANNON BAKER, PhD 19:20Yeah, I think the guiding factor for me, as I’m thinking about, I’ve also been a worship pastor at a church for a few years, is when we’re looking at all of these songs, I think, above all else, making sure that we’re selecting songs, wherever they come from, that have solid, biblical and theological truths that align with interpretation of Scripture, for your context, I think is the most important factor. And I think I’m being broad intentionally because there are churches that will use Bethel songs and have no problem with Bethel theology. And will use Bethel songs. Great if it’s edifying your church and people are coming to know Christ, awesome. Because that’s the goal, right is to have more and more people drawn to Christ. I know there are other churches that don’t agree with Bethel’s theology, and will not use Bethel songs, and they’re finding other songs, and people are coming to know Christ.
And I think at the end of the day, yes, it’s helpful to know who the songs are by. I mean, Elias has already given a lot of contexts for maybe how to approach who the artist is. But I think for me, it’s really just important that whatever you’re singing is theologically true and aligns with good interpretation of Scripture. So, and I think what really comes down to that is some people would look at these four mega churches and say none of them do. They’ll look at all four of them and say, the songs, none of them are theologically true. It’s all heresy. Which, you know, that’s their prerogative. I think there are some great songs coming from these churches. But I would say for the ones who just blindly use the songs from these four primary contributors, just for whatever reason, maybe they don’t have enough time to listen for new people, or they just trust them. So, we’ll use whatever they get from them. I would just challenge to look for the songs that are maybe a little more hidden. Spotify makes it really easy. And whatever songs you find, just remembering too, yes, music can be manipulative, but making sure that the words we’re singing and that worship pastors are choosing for people to put on their lips and say before God, are theologically true.
JULIE ROYS 21:41I’m trying to think the on the list that I saw, was In Christ Alone on there?
SHANNON BAKER, PhD 21:46So that song was written before 2010.
JULIE ROYS 21:49I was gonna say that would be an outlier.
SHANNON BAKER, PhD 21:52It does appear it says there are a few outliers like that. In Christ Alone I believe appeared on almost every single list in the 2010s decade. So, there are a few of those songs that are still sung just weren’t new songs on our list.
JULIE ROYS 22:08That would be one, I would say it’s theologically rich. But you’re right. That’s a good question. We haven’t really talked that much about the actual content of the songs and what’s happening with them. We used to have a joke, I know at our church, that there are meteorology songs, let it rain and let the winds blow and the song, and some of them have very little theological content. Although I will say too, one of the things I think that worship music gets really pounded for is people say, Oh, it’s just mushy, love songs. And when I look at the Psalms, that’s a lot of mushy love songs in there. And people would say, we sing them over and over again. And I’m like, What do you kiss your wife over and over again? Yeah, I mean, I think we forget that this is relationship with God. And I appreciate what you brought up there, Shannon.
At our we had a Restore Conference last year. And it was our second one that we’ve done, but it gathers a lot of folks that have been hurt or wounded by the church. And in our first one, I intentionally wanted to have worship there. I know there’s some people that will be like, when you gather people who have been wounded by the church, these are just all triggers for them, and some will go so far that we shouldn’t talk about God because they were hurt by the church. And if we don’t talk about God, and we don’t invite the Holy Spirit to be present, then we’re cutting ourselves off from the source of our healing. And that will be devastating to us. So, the first one we did that we actually had a band. The second one, I just really felt it was important to strip it all down. And so, we just had a guitar and the worship leader brought, he did bring somebody who played keyboards and would sing background, but it’s very stripped-down worship. And almost all of our songs were hymns. Because I did notice that so many of the worship songs today, for these people who have been hurt in the church, have triggers for them. But it makes me wonder but for the people listening who have been through sort of a church hurt experience, and they’re looking at these songs or even looking at how it can be done differently, speak to them. How should they look or approach this worship music that and I understand what you’re saying Elias. Handel’s Messiah, I don’t think Handel was a Christian even. And yet we worship with it. But yet I think now because of the current cultural moment that we’re in, with so many of these scandals blowing up, and because of people being wounded in those environments, what would you say to them when they say, I know a lot of them saying, I have trouble even entering into worship anymore, because of what happened to me.
ELIAS DUMMER 22:55Sure. Yeah. That’s definitely a heavy thing to think through. And like I mentioned earlier, not something that I don’t personally understand exactly. My own main mentor in life is somebody with whom I have a complicated relationship in my mind. I think of stuff going on over in the UK right now as a really good example of the same sort of thing and people like Matt Redman are commenting on it. So, I think there’s this.
JULIE ROYS 25:17And let me just for those who don’t know about that, we actually just published a story not long ago about Mike Pilavachi, who was the founder of Soul Survivor, which brought huge youth festivals, would bring in like 30,000 youth from all around mostly UK, but really all around the world. People would come from all over.
ELIAS DUMMER 25:34It was hugely influential for me.
JULIE ROYS 25:36And what’s coming out is that a lot of allegations that he abused these young men who were a part of the Ministry of Soul Survivor, and Matt Redman was one of the early people that came his worship music really became popular through Soul Survivors. Go ahead.
ELIAS DUMMER 25:52Yeah. So, all that to say, I think there is often this kind of flattening of the question of experience of church based on the platform versus not the platform, that I don’t know if it works in reality. I think there is a pretty big gap between the senior pastor in the church and everybody else very often. And there’s just people have different roles to play, and they play them. And so, I think, experientially, that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to be easy to be in a context where you’re experiencing something that for you is associated with pain and hurt. I can understand that. And I can understand needing to work through that. But at the same time, we’re human beings.
So, if I think about like, what it means to think about humans coming together in worship, there isn’t really another activity that’s as unifying, in a holistic sense, in an embodied sense, as song. And so, it’s difficult to think of something which would cause 300 people to pray the same thing at the same time and feel something about it. It’s basically music, that’s what we’ve got. There’s no easy answer to that question, I guess is what I’m saying. It just really is a difficult thing to work through. I think where it gets hard is when we start to want to remove anything that can be very difficult. I don’t know exactly how we do that, and then not end up with something which is as lifeless and soulless, and almost dualistic in a sense. We start to take the things like the one that gets raised a lot in my world is that question of emotional manipulation. Is worship music emotionally manipulative? And my answer is yes. And the reason is, what I said earlier. We look to music to do that thing; that’s music’s function is to move us. And the person who first sought to manipulate the music was the writer trying to manipulate themselves, in a sense. Like trying to bring about in them a feeling that conveyed the thing they were trying to put across. And it’s so easy to look at the people doing this and infer intent and infer sort of malice, where maybe it might exist, and it might not. And I wish there was an easier answer for this. But in my experience, there isn’t. It is just a complicated thing that is hard to wrestle through, if you’ve been through that sort of hurt.
I’m writing songs like this. And I was talking with my friend Chris, who’s in a band called Brain Collective. And we were writing a song together. And we were saying how it can be so hard to write worship songs, because every song is practically an existential crisis. You don’t have that when you’re writing love songs about your wife, it’s not the same. And so, it’s not as though the writers of these songs are lacking gravitas and are not wrestling with these questions themselves. They are. They’re often some of the first victims of it. And so, I think we need to be comfortable, or we need to at least do the work of seeing things for what they are and what they are not and approaching them as such. And yes, that can be like untangling a ball of yarn. But on some level, if we hope to still be around in this thing. That’s work we have to do. And it’s hard.
JULIE ROYS 29:11I know for me, there was a period where I couldn’t listen to any modern worship. I’ve come back to being able to and I lead worship, just in a small context now. But being able to play some of those songs that have such positive connotations for me, where it says in Scripture, come back to the things that you did at first, and often those are those songs that are so meaningful, that first connected me with the Lord. And so, I found that very meaningful. Now, will I ever be able to sing an Elevation song again? Or Hillsong? I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t know. That would be really tough for me personally, but I hear what you’re saying. And I appreciate it. Shannon, any final thoughts on your part before we sign off here?
SHANNON BAKER, PhD 29:58I guess my final thought would be our study focused on the 2010s decade. It focused on the previous decade leading up to the pandemic. The worship landscape now, the contemporary worship landscape now looks very different, and there is starting to be a shift. That is encouraging. There are new artists that are emerging. One of them seemingly has no connection to these big four. Her name is Charity Gale. She’s becoming more and more popular. Maverick City is coming up. Other names are becoming known whether they have associations to these big four are not. So, I would say, on an encouraging note, the 2020s, I think, are going to look very different than the past decade. And there are a lot of positive changes that I think are coming.
JULIE ROYS 30:48Is there any chance that somebody who just writes songs and isn’t a great singer or performer, that their song will ever their worship song could ever be played?
SHANNON BAKER, PhD 30:58If they’re not the one particularly recording it or releasing it themselves? I think they can collaborate with some people who are, and it probably will get known that way. But without, right now, I think unless you’re latching on to an artist that’s becoming popular right now without a connection to them, or getting and landing a big record deal, I think it’s very difficult. Which again, puts the burden on the worship pastor and the worship leader to take the challenge and the responsibility to seek out lesser-known artists who are writing great songs. You just have to look for them.
JULIE ROYS 31:38And maybe within your church context, there can be songs that are just yours, and are happening being written by your own people. Well, Shannon, and Elias, thank you so much for this challenging discussion and for the insights you have from the study. I know it’s continuing to be released. I think you’ve released like three articles, which is releasing part of your study. But like a total of you expect about eight, right? So, we’re not even halfway through some of the unveiling that’s going to happen. So yeah, I look forward to that and to reading those. But thank you so much for taking the time today. Really appreciate it.
Well, again, thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’ve appreciated this podcast, would you please consider supporting the work we do at The Roys Report? Its generous supporters like you that make this podcast and all of our investigative work at The Roys Report possible. And this month for gift of any amount, we’ll send you a copy of Wounded Workers: Recovering From Heartache in the Workplace in the Church. I know a lot of you who listen to this podcast have experienced church hurt, and many may be in a situation right now where you’re trying to evaluate whether to stay or to leave. This book is especially designed for you, and I think you’re going to find it invaluable. So, to donate and get a copy of Wounded Workers just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. I hope you were blessed and encouraged.
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What comes to mind when you hear Hillsong? Elevation? Passion? Bethel? You may think megachurch. You may think controversy or scandal. But you also may think of music. And chances are, if you were in church last Sunday, you sang a song produced by, or associated in some way with, one of these four worship powerhouses.
In this edition of The Roys Report, two collaborators of a new study on worship join me to discuss their stunning findings.
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Is it true that men are visual in a way that women will never understand? Or that boys can’t help but lust if a girl is dressed like she’s inciting it?
In this edition of The Roys Report, we continue a two-part discussion with Sheila Wray Gregoire on toxic teachings on sex and womanhood within the evangelical church.
You just heard two doozies.
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Is the church conditioning women to think less of themselves? And do the most common teachings girls hear in youth group make them more likely to marry an abuser? Less likely to understand consent? And more likely to blame themselves if they’re assaulted?
In this edition of The Roys Report, we’ll explore these topics with Sheila Wray Gregoire, author of a fantastic book exposing toxic church teachings on sex and women titled She Deserves Better.
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American evangelicals love megachurches. Today, there are about 1,750 megachurches in the U.S. and 65% of them are evangelical in their theology. But are these megachurches truly helping the evangelical movement—or are they destroying it?
In this edition of The Roys Report, Julies continues a discussion of Jesus vs. Evangelicals with Dr. Constantine Campbell, author of the book by that name.
- Guest Bios
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Evangelicalism was once known for its theological convictions, like the centrality of Scripture and the need for personal conversion. Now, it’s known for Trumpian politics, anti-LGBTQ rhetoric, megachurch scandals, and grift.
Clearly, it’s a movement in crisis. And according to New Testament scholar Constantine Campbell, if the movement doesn’t correct course, it’s in danger of becoming shipwrecked.
In this latest podcast, Dr.
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Why are Christians drawn to abusive celebrity pastors? And why do appeals to love and serve often gain less traction than condemnation and harshness?
In this edition of The Roys Report, Julie explores explore these questions with Dr. Raymond Chiu, a business professor at Redeemer University in Ontario, Canada.
Along with two colleagues, Dr. Chiu has done extensive research on why we like our leaders to be rough and tyrannical.
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Jesus Revolution—a new film recounting the Jesus Movement of the 1970s—has become a box office sensation with Christian moviegoers. But is the movie accurate? And does its focus on megachurch pastor Greg Laurie do justice to this 1970s movement that changed the world?
On this edition of The Roys Report, Christian filmmaker David Di Sabatino, creator of the Emmy-award-nominated documentary, Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher, joins Julie.
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Many times, those who have experienced spiritual abuse are retraumatized when they try to speak about what’s happened. They’re often labeled bitter, disgruntled, and gossips—and once again, wounded by Christians and the church.
In part two of Julie’s podcast with Justin Humphreys, they discuss how to help survivors of church hurt. How can church leaders and members promote their healing?
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Spiritual abuse has become an increasingly hot topic, as more and more stories of bully pastors and hyper-controlling churches have grabbed headlines. But how does spiritual abuse differ from mere emotional and psychological abuse? And what are its key features and stages?
In this podcast, Justin Humphreys, CEO of Thirtyone:Eight and author of Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse, joins Julie to discuss this important issue.
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After years spent in an abusive church, how do you heal? How do spot a safe pastor—and can you avoid repeating the same mistake?
In this edition of The Roys Report, Pastor Ken Garrett, author of In the House of Friends, returns to describe the process of healing after escaping from an abusive church.
- Guest Bios
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How do people get sucked into abusive churches? What are the tell-tale signs of an abusive church? And, after leaving one, how can you heal?
In this edition of The Roys Report, Pastor Ken Garrett, author of In the House of Friends, shares key insights on understanding and healing from spiritual abuse in Christian churches.
For 12 years, Ken and his family belonged to a cultic, abusive church in the Portland area.
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Celebrity culture has invaded the church. Pastors, who should be shepherds serving the flock, have become idols attracting adoring fans and commanding six- and even seven-figure salaries.
What has happened to the church? How did we get here? And what can be done to counter this truly anti-gospel culture?
In this podcast, I explore this pervasive problem with Katelyn Beaty, author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church.
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How do you hold on to your faith after experiencing abuse in a church? And how can you find Christian community when so many aspects of church trigger painful memories?
In this week’s podcast, Doug and Wendy Duncan join me to discuss their journey into—out of—what they say was an abusive and cultic Christian community.
After being taught God was angry and punitive, they had to heal their image of God—and of themselves.
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Is Mark Driscoll a victim of vindictive leaders? Or is he an unrepentant narcissist and liar, who refuses to take responsibility?
In part two of this podcast with former Mars Hill Executive Elder Sutton Turner, we discuss the narrative Mark Driscoll has been crafting for eight years. This is one in which Driscoll claims he’s a victim—that leaders at Mars Hill had set a trap, and Mark left before they could destroy him.
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Since his abrupt resignation from Mars Hill Church in 2014, Mark Driscoll has claimed he was the victim of a vindictive plot. But last week, Driscoll dropped a bombshell. He claimed that Mars Hill leaders were planning to accuse him of adultery if he didn’t resign.
In this week’s podcast, Sutton Turner—one of only three former executive elders at Mars Hill—joins me to set the record straight.
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What is it like to be a person of color in a predominantly white evangelical church? Does fitting in require someone to change their behavior, appearance, and speech? And if so, what does that say about the church?
In this latest podcast, Julie explores these issues with Jenai Auman. Jenai is a survivor of spiritual abuse in an Acts 29 church.
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What do you do when you realize you’ve been abused by your church? Do you appeal to the denomination? Do you speak up publicly to seek justice, even if you suspect the majority won’t listen?
In this second of a two-part podcast, Lori Harding tells what she did in this situation. She recounts returning to her former church—the well-known Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, Florida—and asking the church to right past wrongs.
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What do you do when you’re wrongly fired by a megachurch—and denied any severance unless you sign an NDA? Then, years later, you realize what you experienced at that church was spiritual abuse?
That’s what Lori Harding says happened to her at the the famous Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And in this edition of The Roys Report, Harding tells her complete story.
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Is all sin equal? Can you call out wickedness in someone else—or is that judging? And what does it really mean to “err on the side of grace”?
If you’ve heard some of these lines, and perhaps been silenced by them, this latest episode of The Roys Report is for you.
Joining me is Rebecca Davis, author of the Untwisting the Scriptures book series.
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Psalm 23 is a powerful psalm, reminding us that the Lord is our shepherd. Yet for those who have been hurt by their earthly shepherds—their pastors—the Psalm can sound trite or even off-putting. And sadly, this reality often keeps victims of religious trauma from the very Scriptures that can provide healing.
In this episode of The Roys Report—Julie explores this issue with K.J.
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In 2016, imprisoned Iranian-American Pastor Saeed Abedini became the focus of a worldwide #SaveSaeed movement. But according to his wife, Naghmeh Abedini, Saeed was a fraud and an abusive husband. Yet because the Christian world idolized marriage and wanted a hero, Naghmeh says leaders suppressed the truth.
Featuring a powerful talk from the recent Restore Conference, in this podcast Naghmeh Panahi addresses the idolatry evident among some evangelical leaders that has led them to cover-up abuse in the church.
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When you give to a church or nonprofit, how do you know your money is being well spent? How do you know if leadership is truly being held accountable?
In this session from the recent Restore Conference, veteran journalist and MinistryWatch president Warren Cole Smith answers these vital questions.
As Warren explains, the evangelical church has been completely incapable of policing itself.
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Narcissism, power through fear, and false narratives. These are some of the qualities of toxic churches. But what about truly good—or, in the Hebrew, “tov”—churches? What do these churches look like? And how do you become one?
In this session from the recent Restore Conference, world-renowned New Testament scholar Scot McKnight unpacks what it means for a Christian community to be truly good.
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How should you respond when a survivor reveals their story? What does he or she need in that moment? And can we avoid common mistakes that compound a survivor’s pain and trauma?
All too often, pastors, Christian leaders, and congregations respond to abuse survivors in the worst way possible. They employ something called DARVO—Denying the abuse, Attacking the truth-tellers, and Reversing the Victim and Offender.
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Does anyone truly recover from spiritual trauma? After being ravaged by the church or a church leader, can a person ever be the same?
Those gut-wrenching questions were recently posed by author and speaker, Lina Abujamra, at the Restore Conference—a session featured on this edition of The Roys Report.
“It’s been 9 years since I survived my spiritual trauma,” she said.
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It’s perhaps one of the most painful questions that survivors ask: Where is God when there’s abuse? Or, where was God when I was abused?
In this powerful message from the Restore Conference, internationally recognized trauma expert and psychologist, Dr. Diane Langberg, seeks to answer this difficult question.
But she openly admits, “I don’t know why God allows abuse.
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Bullying is a huge issue in schools and workplaces. But what do you do when your bully is a pastor or leader of a Christian organization? Do you give a gentle word and turn the other cheek? Or, do you stand up and fight?
On this edition of The Roys Report, we’ll hear from Paul Coughlin, a best-selling author and nationally recognized anti-bullying expert, as he speaks at the Restore Conference.
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How do you heal when you’ve been hurt and traumatized by those who profess Christ—when both Christians and church seem incredibly unsafe?
In this episode of The Roys Report featuring a message from the Restore Conference, professional psychologist Dr. Philip Monroe addresses trauma, healing, and barriers to helping others going through the healing process.
Maybe you’ve experienced trauma and you feel stuck.
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Abuse has become epidemic in the church—and so has cover-up. But what causes abuse in the church? And how can we stop it?
In this special episode of The Roys Report, author, psychologist, and trauma expert, Dr. Diane Langberg, answers these questions with uncommon insight and clarity.
In the opening talk of Restore 2022, Dr.
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For years, Ravi Zacharias labeled her a predator and a serial extortionist. And sadly, the world believed him. But now, we know better. Ravi Zacharias was the predator in what was dubbed in 2017 as a “sexting scandal.” And Lori Anne Thompson was not just the victim of clergy sexual abuse—but of a worldwide campaign to smear her name.
In this special episode of The Roys Report, you’ll hear what was definitely a highlight of the recent Restore 2022 Conference.
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Should a woman endure abuse by an unbelieving spouse like a missionary endures persecution?
Stunningly, this is the advice offered by Dr. John Street, chair of the graduate program of biblical counseling at John MacArthur’s school — The Master’s University and Seminary (TMUS) — and an elder at Grace Community Church (GCC).
Street also suggests that wife’s failure to “fulfill” her husband can cause the husband to sexually abuse his children!
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Why don’t church leaders believe victims when they report abuse? And why is the victim so often gaslit and abused instead of supported?
This episode of The Roys Report presents an in-depth look at abuse recently exposed at John MacArthur’s megachurch in southern California. Survivor advocate and author, Sarah McDugal, joins Julie to unpack MacArthur’s shocking treatment of the wife of a child-abusing husband.
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In 2016, Christian author Carey Scott was the victim of plagiarism by a major celebrity—international speaker and evangelist Christine Caine. Caine reportedly copied entire portions of Scott’s book, forcing Scott to take legal action to settle the issue. Yet for Scott, the negative impact of this event lingers. Meanwhile, Caine, who never apologized, continues to enjoy the spotlight.
On this edition of The Roys Report, Carey Scott shares her painful story, involving not just having her work stolen, but also being persistently bullied online.
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Are Black, Hispanic, and other people of color being traumatized in predominantly white, evangelical churches? And if they are, what’s driving it? Racism? Fear? Ignorance? Or, is it something else?
Joining me for this episode of The Roys Report is Kyle Howard, a racial trauma and spiritual trauma counselor. He’s also become somewhat of a lightning rod for calling out what he sees as white supremacy in the church.
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The Association of Related Churches, or ARC, is arguably the biggest church planting organization in North America. It’s also one of the most embattled . . . with scandals involving ARC pastors hitting the news with shocking regularity.
In this episode of The Roys Report podcast, former ARC pastor Jeff Thompson explains why.
In 2012, Jeff says he was enamored with ARC’s model of “launching large”—of starting a church with a big capital investment, top-notch worship team, and professional marketing.
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Is the turmoil at Bethlehem Baptist Church simply the result of different theological and political convictions? Or, is it due to spiritual abuse and control at the highest levels?
In part two of my podcast on What Happened at Bethlehem Baptist, former members Steve and Janette Takata describe how a Bethlehem elder, Andy Naselli, reportedly disparaged and gossiped about them behind their backs.
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There have been reports of spiritual abuse and abuse of power at Bethlehem Baptist Church—the church John Piper pastored for over 30 years. Three pastors have resigned. Hundreds of members have left. But why?
Joining me for this important episode of The Roys Report are Steve and Janette Takata—a couple who unwittingly found themselves at the epicenter of the storm at this prominent Minnesota church.
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Over the past year, The Roys Report grew exponentially following in-depth investigations on several fronts—from the cultic church Mark Driscoll is running in Arizona, to pressure exerted on Naghmeh Panahi to salvage the #SaveSaeed movement, to inside reports from RZIM and John MacArthur’s ministries.
In this special ‘Best of 2021’ edition of The Roys Report, you’ll hear excerpts from our most popular podcasts of the year.
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Why is it that we have so many bullies and heavy-handed leaders in the church? Perhaps it’s because we’re addicted to leadership—and have elevated a model of leadership that has everything to do with the world and nothing to do with Jesus.
In this edition of The Roys Report, Julie discusses Christians’ addiction to leadership with Lance Ford—a pastor, church-planter, and co-founder of the Sentralized Conference in Kansas City.
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Is conservatism biblical? And what are the dangers of mixing Christianity and politics?
In this edition of The Roys Report, join Julie in addressing these issues head-on with Coleman Luck, author of The Curse of Conservatism.
Though Coleman holds conservative theological and political views, he warns against a syncretism that’s seeping into the church.
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Bullies. We’ve all encountered them on the playground. But what happens when you encounter them in your church?
In this edition of The Roys Report, joining Julie to talk about bullies in the pulpit is Paul Coughlin, an expert on bullying and a best-selling author and speaker.
Contrary to popular opinion, Paul says bullies aren’t typically “wounded” people who are seeking to ease their pain.
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What does the Bible really say about gossip, bearing false witness, fear, anger, and other negative emotions? Is it wrong to speak out against another believer? Is it sinful to feel mad?
In this edition of The Roys Report, prolific author Rebecca Davis joins Julie to discuss the third book in her series Untwisting the Scriptures that were used to tie you up, gag you, and tangle your mind, which deals with words and emotions.
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Did Liberty University mishandle Title IX sexual assault allegations? The school’s former spokesman says it did—and he joins Julie Roys in a special edition of The Roys Report to tell his inside story.
Lamb this week filed a federal lawsuit against Liberty, accusing the school of firing him for raising objections to Liberty’s “mishandling” of Title IX allegations.
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Many churches and Christian groups have been accused of being cult-like. But what qualifies as a cult? And what are the red flags people should look for?
In this edition of The Roys Report, well-known cult expert Dr. Steven Hassan joins Julie to discuss how to identify a cult and its tactics—including mind-control and authoritarian leadership.
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What do you do when Christianity hasn’t lived up to your expectations? And the church, which is supposed to be a place of healing, instead has left deep and permanent wounds?
In this edition of The Roys Report, Lina Abujamra, Bible teacher and author of Fractured Faith, shares a very personal account of how her faith was nearly deconstructed.
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For years, Naghmeh Panahi heroically advocated for the release of her husband—Iranian-American pastor, Saeed Abedini—from an Iranian prison. Yet months before his release, Naghmeh revealed a dark secret: for years, Saeed had been physically, emotionally, and sexually abusing her.
Yet rather than rallying to support this battered wife, Naghmeh says the Christian community attacked her. And she says some—including Franklin Graham and Jay Sekulow—relentlessly pressured her to reconcile with her abusive husband, or to even lie about what happened.
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From the fall of 2012 through 2015, imprisoned Iranian-American Pastor Saeed Abedini and his wife, Naghmeh, were the public face of persecuted Christians. As part of a global #SaveSaeed campaign, millions of dollars were raised, and Saeed was freed from prison in January 2016.
Yet when Naghmeh revealed that she’d been abused by her husband, she went from being the darling of the Christian community to an outcast.
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When Jason Meyer, John Piper’s successor at Bethlehem Baptist Church, recently resigned, he claimed that a “neo-fundamentalism” had crept into the church. Others throughout evangelicalism have cited similar opposing factions in the church—white nationalists, “woke” Christians, and ex-evangelicals, for example.
But what are these factions? And why is the evangelical movement—once united by firm theological convictions—now splitting apart?
On this edition of The Roys Report, we explore the answers with Michael Graham and Skyler Flowers, two pastors who have authored a groundbreaking article entitled, “The Six-Way Fracturing of Evangelicalism.”
Julie also presents new evidence, including leaked emails, revealing the deep divisions over racial and cultural issues at Bethlehem Baptist, which have led to major upheaval at the church.
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Natalie Hoffman spent more than 10 years at Bethlehem Baptist Church—the church where John Piper pastored for over 30 years. During that time, she says she was stuck in an abusive marriage. Yet rather than helping her, she says Bethlehem blamed and shamed her, and left her suicidal.
On this edition of The Roys Report, Natalie Hoffman joins Julie to tell her story—an account that’s extremely relevant, given current events at Bethlehem.
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Have Scriptures been twisted to keep women in bondage—and to promote a patriarchy movement that’s grossly misogynist?
On this edition of The Roys Report, author Rebecca Davis joins Julie to examine this movement and the Scriptures used to support it. Diving into Rebecca’s book series on Untwisting Scriptures That Were Used to Tie You Up, Gag You, and Tangle Your Mind, their talk centers on book two in the series entitled: Patriarchy and Authority.
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Twelve women have filed a civil lawsuit, claiming that Liberty University is “enabling on-campus rapes.” On this episode of The Roys Report, one of the 12 Jane Does filing that lawsuit—as well as two of her allies—tell their story spanning 16 years.
Their story starts in 2005, when “Jane Doe #2” in the lawsuit was gang raped on Liberty’s campus.
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From his shuttered church in Seattle to his “cult” in Arizona, author and celebrity pastor Mark Driscoll has taken pastoral entitlement, bullying, and control to new lows. Even after Part 1 of Inside the Driscoll “Cult,” two former members of Driscoll’s security detail have much more to share.
On this edition of The Roys Report, Chad Freese, the former head of security at The Trinity Church, and his former colleague, Ben Eneas, reveal more details about the cult of personality and family business that Driscoll has cultivated.
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The cultic activities of Mark Driscoll and The Trinity Church have escalated to a whole new level. As Julie’s guests describe on this edition of The Roys Report, Driscoll is now sending cease and desist letters, threatening to sue whistleblowers. And the threat is not in vain. Driscoll reportedly has amassed a $10 million dollar litigation fund to sue whistleblowers into oblivion.
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Does the Bible really teach that Christians are supposed to give up their rights? If you speak out against someone who’s sinned against you, does it mean that you’re bitter? And is it really wrong to “take up offenses” for someone else?
The short answer is, No! But as Julie explains on this episode of The Roys Report podcast, these are all examples of twisting the Scriptures to condition Christians to accept abuse.
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Sixteen women say Pastor Wayne Aarum sexually abused them. Still, he remains the president of the well-known Circle C Ranch in Western New York. In this podcast, two of his alleged victims speak out.
On this episode of The Roys Report, the women—Joy McCullough and Michelle Poulsen—explain how Aarum systematically groomed them in the 1990s at both Circle C and The Chapel, a megachurch where Aarum served as the youth pastor.
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What’s really going on at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries? And what should we make of recent apologies by senior executives of the ministry?
It’s been four months since Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM) announced an investigation into its culture, finances, and practices. But so far, there’s been radio silence. There have been no updates. No reports published.
Meanwhile, senior RZIM leaders Abdu Murray and Sarah Davis have published videos where they apologize to Ravi’s victims.
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If a pastor or someone in spiritual authority lures a married adult into a sexual relationship—is that abuse or an affair? And can an adult engage in a sexual relationship, but not be culpable because she was manipulated by a sexual predator?
On this episode of The Roys Report, Julie explores this very difficult and sensitive issue with Dr.
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Three years ago, he reportedly groomed and lured a married student under his care at a Christian seminary into a sexual relationship. Now, he’s moved to another state and is relaunching his ministry. But his victim is speaking out.
On this episode of The Roys Report, Julie speaks with Katie Roberts, who was once the director of the Women’s Training Network for The Gospel Coalition (TGC).
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Why would the wife of a sexual abuser and accused pedophile like Josh Duggar stay in the marriage? And what kind of culture—or cult—produces families like the Duggars?
In this episode of The Roys Report—Julie explores what some have referred to as the Duggar “cult.”
The Duggars are immersed in a religious system created by Bill Gothard, a strong proponent of homeschooling and the creator of the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP).
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Why do some megachurch pastors wear shoes that cost as much as a mortgage payment? Is that wrong? Or do some pastors deserve to be rich?
On this episode of The Roys Report, Julie explores this issue with Ben Kirby, creator of the hugely popular Instagram account PreachersNSneakers.
PreachersNSneakers began as an online experiment that showcased photos of famous Christian leaders wearing insanely expensive sneakers and clothing.
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Is the Bible just like “Game of Thrones,” except if you don’t read it, you go to hell? And speaking of hell, does anyone really believe in a place of eternal torment? Or is that just a fable pastors preach to scare people into becoming Christians?
In this episode of The Roys Report, Julie tackles these accusations raised by viral TikTok sensation, Abraham Piper.
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They’re ravaging the church and devouring the sheep. Yet instead of tracking and expelling these wolves, we’re actually helping—and in some cases—protecting them!
On this episode of The Roys Report, Coleman Luck, author of Day of the Wolf: Unmasking and Confronting Wolves in the Church, explains why. Dazzled by their ability to pack auditoriums and fill church coffers, Christians often mistake spiritual wolves for spiritual leaders.
- Guest Bios
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The evangelical community in the U.K. is being rocked by a horrific abuse scandal, involving Jonathan Fletcher — arguably the leading evangelical figure in Britain for the past several decades.
On this episode of The Roys Report, Lee Furney—the first survivor of Fletcher’s abuse to go public —speaks out.
As Furney recounts, Fletcher groomed and abused young men who attended his prominent church in Wimbledon, England, for 30 years.
- Guest Bios
- Show Transcript
What’s the truth about John MacArthur, his ministries, and the Master’s University and Seminary?
On this episode of The Roys Report, a former vice president at John MacArthur’s seminary reveals stunning details about the culture of fear, nepotism, and celebrity surrounding the famous pastor.
From 1991—2015, Dennis Swanson worked at The Master’s University and Seminary (TMUS)—first as the director innovation and then as the vice president of operations, the library, and accreditation.
Swanson worked with MacArthur’s son-in-law, Kory Welch, who’s been paid millions in contracts by MacArthur’s ministries.
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Do women need to maintain a certain weight and aspire to look like Melania Trump to keep their husbands happy? And is “weight control” the solution to women’s marital problems?
A pastor at a General Baptist Church in Missouri actually preached that on a recent Sunday morning—a sign that misogyny is alive and well in the church.
On this episode of The Roys Report, Julie discusses misogyny in the church with author and speaker, Aimee Byrd.
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Love & Respect is a huge best-selling book. But instead of producing happy marriages, popular author and marriage blogger, Sheila Wray Gregoire, says it can lead to abuse.
On this episode of The Roys Report, Sheila joins Julie to explain why she’s been warning couples about this book for years—and how a comprehensive study she commissioned gives hard evidence that Love & Respect is harmful.
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Today, she’s a retired police officer with 34 years of distinguished service. But in 1974, she was a scared, pregnant teenager. And she says Ravi Zacharias pressured her to get an abortion.
On this edition of The Roys Report, Julie speaks with Shirley Steward, who says when she was 17, she became pregnant with the child of Ravi Zacharias’ younger brother, Ramesh Zacharias.
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Let’s face it. Christians—and especially, evangelical Christians—have a huge PR problem. Though at one time, society considered us the good guys, we’ve become the bad guys. So how do we live faithfully for Jesus in a culture that hates us?
On this episode of The Roys Report, Julie tackles this difficult issue with pastor, blogger and author, Stephen McAlpine.
As Stephen concedes, we’ve brought some of this hardship on ourselves by behaving badly.
“It’s very easy to have a persecution complex when we’re misbehaving,” he says.
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The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) has been rocked by a sex abuse scandal, a federal lawsuit, and claims of self-dealing and lucrative, backroom deals. The church also is experiencing historic lows when it comes to evangelism and church planting.
But one man says he’ll reform the SBC. And if he wins his bid to be SBC president, he’ll have the power to do it.
On this episode of The Roys Report, Julie speaks with Randy Adams, one of four candidates vying to be president of the SBC—the largest, Protestant denomination in the country.
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With churches in 28 countries, attracting hundreds of thousands of regular attenders, Hillsong Global has become one of the most influential evangelical movements in the world. But lately, the church has been rocked by scandal. And in this episode of The Roys Report, you’ll begin to understand why.
Joining Julie is Janis Lagata—a writer, spoken word artist, and podcaster. But what’s most relevant to our conversation is that Janis was part of the team that launched Hillsong New York City.
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Sadly, 2020 was a year in which scandal after scandal after scandal rocked the church. And on this best of 2020 podcast—or perhaps, worst of 2020 podcast—Julie explores several of the biggest scandals with insiders who had a front-row seat.
You’ll hear highlights from The Roys Report‘s five, most listened-to 2020 podcasts. These include a podcast with an attorney who represented victims of Bill Hybels; radio host Mancow Muller telling of the depravity he witnessed as a close friend of James MacDonald; and Steve Baughman, an atheist attorney, revealing how he discovered deception and abuse by Ravi Zacharias.