The Peaceful Parenting Podcast

View Details

Seven years ago, I started the Peaceful Parenting Membership to create a place where parents could keep learning and growing together.

In this special episode, I reflect on what I've learned after supporting thousands of families and why peaceful parenting isn't about perfection—it's about practice.

If you've ever thought, "I know what to do, I just can't seem to do it in the moment," this episode is for you.

I also share a special anniversary offer to celebrate seven years of this incredible community.

Learn more here: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/sevenyears

Offer ends Saturday Aug 1.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, my guest is therapist Morgan Pommells. We explore the lasting impact of having an emotionally immature parent (EIP), including how to begin healing and how we can break the cycle with our own kids. We also talk about boundaries with our EIP parent, why children's big emotions aren't personal attacks, and what every child truly needs to thrive.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

And if you love the podcast, FREE ways to help us out:1- Rate and review the podcast in your podcast player app

2- “Like” this post by tapping the heart icon ♥️

3- Share this with a friend. THANK YOU!

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

We talk about:

00:00 – Introduction to Morgan Pommells

02:30 – What is an emotionally immature parent?

07:15 – Emotional immaturity vs. narcissism: What’s the difference?

09:00 – Why emotionally immature parents are often critical

10:30 – The biggest impact on children: Growing up without a strong sense of self

12:00 – How childhood with an EIP affects adult relationships and self-worth, and our own parenting

15:30 – Healing from emotionally immature parenting

18:30 – Why your child’s big emotions are actually a sign of safety

19:00 – Navigating relationships with emotionally immature parents as an adult

27:00 – Teaching children that feelings aren’t dangerous

27:45 – Emotionally immature grandparents: Do the patterns continue?

29:15 – The power of delighting in your child

32:45 – What if your parenting partner is emotionally immature?

35:00 – The parenting mistake we all make: Taking children’s emotions personally

36:00 – Morgan’s advice for every parent: Heal your own wounds before they parent your children

38:00 – Where to find Morgan and closing thoughts

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Morgan’s Masterclass Protect Your Peace
Morgan’s IG @morganpommells

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the fall for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast.

Today’s guest is Morgan Pommells. Morgan is a therapist and coach who helps the adult children of emotionally immature parents stop seeing themselves through their parents’ eyes and finally come home to who they really are.

Morgan and I discuss what an emotionally immature parent is, how that is—and isn’t—different from narcissism, and how people grow up to parent this way. Morgan also shares how having an emotionally immature parent affects us as children, how it continues to affect us once we’ve grown up, and how we can heal from having been raised by an emotionally immature parent.

We also talk about the opposite of emotionally immature parenting and what our kids need in order to grow up whole and healthy.

Morgan has so much wisdom, and so much of our work overlaps. I think you’re going to learn a lot from this conversation, and I think you’re really going to enjoy it.

If you like this episode, please share it with a friend so more parents can learn about peaceful parenting. If you’re a fan of the podcast, you can also help us out by leaving a five-star rating and review in your podcast app. While you’re there, don’t forget to follow the show so you don’t miss an episode.

Let’s meet Morgan.

Sarah: Hi, Morgan. Welcome to the podcast.

Morgan: Hi! Thank you for having me.

Sarah: I’m so glad to have you on. We’ve been trying to schedule this for a while, and I think this is such an important topic for parents. I’m so glad we finally got to sit down and have this conversation.

Morgan: Me too. It’s a super important topic for parents.

Sarah: Tell us a little about who you are and what you do.

Morgan: I’m a therapist and coach in Ontario, Canada, and I specialize exclusively in working with the adult children of emotionally immature parents. Whether that’s through workshops or one-to-one work, everything I do revolves around helping people heal from having emotionally immature parents.

Sarah: So tell us: what is an emotionally immature parent?

Morgan: Great question.

An emotionally immature parent is someone who really struggles to manage their own painful internal emotions. Those emotions tend to spill out onto everyone around them instead of being worked through internally. These are parents who might struggle with shame, rage, or fear of abandonment, and instead of taking responsibility for those feelings and working through them themselves, they become everyone else’s problem.

They take those emotions out on their children. They may recruit their children into never leaving them because they’re terrified of being abandoned. The child becomes responsible for soothing and managing the parent’s anxiety, which is really the opposite of what a healthy parent-child relationship is meant to be.

Sarah: Yeah.

What causes somebody... I guess you don’t become emotionally immature—you just never emotionally mature. What causes that lack of emotional maturation? How does somebody become an emotionally immature parent?

Morgan: There are a couple of different pathways.

A lot of emotionally immature parents have their own relational trauma. If we experience something deeply overwhelming at a young age and don’t have the capacity to metabolize it at the time, we can become emotionally stuck there. Our biological age keeps moving forward, but our emotional development doesn’t necessarily come with us. Our emotional defenses stay frozen at that younger age.

In other cases, someone may have had the capacity to become emotionally mature, but emotional immaturity was all that was ever modeled for them. They don’t have another template. They don’t know a different kind of parenting exists because they’re simply working from the script they inherited.

Sarah: So far we’ve been talking about this in psychological terms, but what does that actually look like in real life?

Let’s focus on an adult child. What would a familiar interaction look like between an emotionally immature parent and their grown child?

Morgan: One of the biggest dynamics is fear of abandonment.

When their child grows up, goes away to university, finds a partner, or simply starts building their own life, emotionally immature parents can become very controlling. They can become very mean. They can use shame to pull their child back toward them and keep them emotionally close because they’re so afraid of being abandoned.

When children are younger, it usually looks like a lot of control. That parent has a tremendous amount of fear and anxiety, but instead of working through it themselves, they try to control their child. As a result, the parent feels safer, but the child feels controlled and suffocated.

Sarah: So they’re almost externalizing their own feelings?

They feel scared, so they make their child feel scared? Or is that too simplified?

Morgan: No, in some cases that’s exactly what’s happening.

If you have a parent who’s very anxious or very fearful, it can actually feel safer if everyone around them is afraid too. You don’t want to be the only person who’s scared of the big, bad threat you believe is coming. So if you can get everyone else to be afraid, at least you have company in that fear.

When children are younger, though, it often looks a little different. A parent might be deeply worried about how their child is doing at school or how they’re perceived by other people, so they try to control what the child says, wears, or does because that helps soothe the parent’s own fear.

Sarah: So that’s because they’re worried about what people think of their child because it reflects back on them?

Morgan: Yes, that’s certainly part of it.

There can be a real element of impression management with emotionally immature parents. Many of them are very concerned with how they appear to other people. Sometimes they experienced a genuine threat in their own childhood because some important family rule was broken. As a result, they become determined that their own child will never break that same rule because they believe that’s what keeps both of them safe.

Sarah: I also think it’s about attachment.

If people don’t think well of you, then you don’t get your needs met.

Morgan: Exactly.

If someone doesn’t think well of you, if they see you as a threat, or if they see you as different, that can feel incredibly dangerous.

Emotionally immature parents tend to like sameness. They want their children to think the same way they do and view the world the same way they do. They often use different techniques to influence their child’s thinking because differences feel threatening.

Ultimately, we’re talking about people who are acting from a deep desire to feel emotionally and psychologically safe. The tragedy is that the methods they use to create that safety can be profoundly damaging to their children.

Sarah: How is this different from narcissism—or is it?

Morgan: That’s a huge question.

You can absolutely have an emotionally immature parent who is also quite narcissistic, but you can also have an emotionally immature parent who isn’t narcissistic at all.

A narcissistic personality structure is just one presentation. Another emotionally immature parent might be incredibly anxious. There are different expressions of emotional immaturity, so it isn’t an either-or situation.

It’s also important to remember that emotional immaturity exists on a spectrum. You can have very mild emotional immaturity—and, honestly, all of us demonstrate emotional immaturity at certain moments in our lives. Then, at the more severe end of the spectrum, you might see something like narcissistic personality disorder, where someone relies heavily on emotionally immature defenses.

So it isn’t that emotional immaturity and narcissism are the same thing. Narcissism is one possible way emotional immaturity can present, but it’s certainly not the only one.

Sarah: Are there people who are emotionally immature all the time?

Morgan: Yes. When we talk about EIPs—emotionally immature parents—we’re talking about people for whom emotional immaturity is the rule rather than the exception.

All of us are going to have emotionally immature moments. Usually, those happen when something feels very threatening because we’re trying to keep ourselves safe. We want control in that moment. One very common emotionally immature defense is denial. Think about hearing that someone has passed away. One of the first things people often say is, “No.” That’s denial. We’re trying to metabolize something incredibly painful.

But those are moments. They’re moments we can eventually reflect on, learn from, and grow through. We can become more emotionally mature if we choose to do that. With emotionally immature parents, though, emotional immaturity isn’t just a reaction to certain situations—it’s their baseline, regardless of the context or the type of threat they’re facing.

Sarah: That makes sense.

One thing you talk about is emotionally immature parents being critical. Tell me about the critical parent.

Morgan: There are really two different versions of that.

One type of emotionally immature parent is highly critical because they’re deeply afraid that their child won’t be okay if they don’t follow the parent’s rules. They believe, “You need to get into a really good university. You need a really good job. You need perfect manners because otherwise people will be mean to you. They won’t give you opportunities.” Underneath all of that criticism is genuine terror and, in many cases, genuine love for their child. The problem is that the way they’re trying to soothe that fear creates rupture and disconnection in the relationship.

Then there’s another group of emotionally immature parents who have internalized a tremendous amount of self-hatred through their own trauma. They don’t know how to metabolize that pain because growing up hating yourself is incredibly painful. Instead, they project it onto their child.

They might notice a quality in their child that reminds them of something they’ve decided is ugly or unacceptable in themselves. It can actually feel satisfying to try to eliminate that quality in their child through criticism or shame—to make sure their child never becomes that way. In those cases, the criticism is really an expression of their own self-hatred.

Sarah: What are the effects on a child growing up with an emotionally immature parent?

Morgan: By far, the biggest effect is a lack of sense of self.

These are children who never really had the opportunity to discover who they are because they didn’t have a parent who was deeply curious about them. They didn’t have a parent who took a genuine interest in them, asked meaningful questions, or reflected their inner world back to them.

As children, we develop our identity in relationship with another person. We need someone to act as a mirror. But for the adult children of emotionally immature parents, you don’t receive a mirror—you receive a distortion.

Instead of hearing, “Tell me about yourself,” or, “I want to understand you,” you hear messages like, “There’s something wrong with you,” “I’m not interested in you,” or, “Your thoughts are weird, wrong, or shameful.” Over time, your sense of self becomes organized around those messages.

Sometimes the experience isn’t criticism so much as neglect. In those cases, it’s not even that you grow up believing you’re bad or shameful. You grow up feeling like you barely exist. Like you aren’t even a full person.

At the core of this wound is not really knowing who you are.

Sarah: Obviously that’s painful in and of itself, but how does that affect someone’s adult life?

How does it show up in the choices we make, the relationships we enter into, or the partners we choose? And maybe that’s actually a separate question, but I’m also curious about how growing up with an emotionally immature parent affects the way we parent our own children.

Morgan: They’re really connected.

The first thing is that when you reach adulthood without a solid sense of self, there’s almost this hunger inside you—a hunger that never feels fully satisfied. You don’t really know what you want. Sometimes you think you know what you want, and then you finally achieve it, only to discover it doesn’t feel the way you expected because something more fundamental is missing.

There’s this constant sense of never quite arriving.

Without a strong sense of self, it’s also much easier to end up in unhealthy or even abusive relationships. If you don’t know who you are, how do you know what you want? How do you know what’s safe? How do you know what your needs are? How do you stay connected to yourself?

Instead, many people become what we often call codependent. They become incredibly focused on making sure everyone else is okay. They’re wonderful caretakers, but meanwhile, none of their own needs are being met. Their own joy, happiness, and sense of aliveness get left behind.

There’s a deep emptiness because there’s nothing inside that feels solid enough to connect with.

Sarah: What about parenting? How does this affect the way we parent our own children?

Morgan: Growing up with an emotionally immature parent affects parenting in so many different ways.

For one thing, if you don’t have a strong sense of self, it’s easy to make parenting your entire identity. It becomes, “I’m just a mom,” or, “I’m just a dad,” as though there’s nothing else to you beyond that role.

But another really important piece is that emotionally immature parents tend to have very rigid rules. They hold strong expectations, and they genuinely believe terrible things will happen if those rules are broken.

If you grow up in that environment—especially without a strong sense of self—you internalize those rules. You come to believe that’s simply how the world works.

Then you become a parent, your children start doing what children naturally do, and they break those rules. They talk back. They get angry. They push limits. Those are completely developmentally appropriate behaviors, but they activate tremendous fear inside you.

You don’t necessarily realize that’s what’s happening. You may even feel your reactions are completely justified. But underneath those reactions is the terror you learned as a child. Because those behaviors weren’t allowed in your own home, seeing your children do them feels profoundly threatening.

Without realizing it, you begin responding to your child as though they’re doing something terribly wrong.

Sarah: I see that all the time with the parents I work with.

If your child does something that would have been dangerous for you to do as a child—whether literally dangerous or emotionally dangerous—it becomes a huge trigger.

Your five-year-old self is saying, “Kids aren’t allowed to do that. Kids shouldn’t do that. If you do that, you’re not going to get the love you need.”

Morgan: Exactly.

Your nervous system remembers, “Bad things happen when this happens.”

Another piece of this wound is that we often don’t realize we’ve grown up. A part of us still feels eight years old.

So when your own child is screaming, getting angry, or breaking the rules, part of your body reacts as though you’re the child who’s about to get in trouble. It says, “We’re not allowed to do this. Last time this happened, I got hurt. You need to stop. You need to be quiet.”

The difference is that now we’re the adult. We’re bigger. We’re more powerful. So we may respond with that same power to shut our child down.

For many parents, that reaction comes from a very real place of, “I get hurt when people scream. I get hurt when these rules are broken. This has to stop.”

Sarah: Yeah. Shut it down.

How does someone heal from having been raised by an emotionally immature parent? I realize that’s your life’s work, so it’s not a simple question, but where does healing begin?

Morgan: The biggest thing to understand is that this is a relational trauma, so it has to heal in the context of relationship.

As a therapist, I’m obviously biased toward therapy, but healing can happen through a coaching relationship, a healthy romantic relationship, or any relationship that offers consistent corrective experiences.

We need experiences where we express our emotions and someone stays. We need experiences where we express a need and someone genuinely wants to meet that need.

We have to update the template.

Insight alone isn’t enough. Reading about it isn’t enough. We actually have to experience someone caring about us.

Sarah: So it’s almost like reprogramming.

Morgan: Exactly.

It’s a real reprogramming process.

Our children can certainly be part of that healing journey, but they can’t become the people who heal us. We have to be very careful not to recruit them into that role.

Sarah: Can we heal ourselves by being a different parent to our children than we had? Do you know what I mean? Can it work in that direction? Could that be part of the healing process?

Morgan: Absolutely. There is something deeply healing about getting down on your child’s level and offering them the validation that you never received yourself.

At the same time, we have to be very careful not to parent our children as though they needed the parent that we needed.

Sarah: Because they’re their own people.

Morgan: Exactly. They’re their own people. They need the parent they need.

If we get caught in the idea that, “I just need to give my children what I never had,” we actually end up missing a lot about who our child is. We stop learning about them because we’ve already decided what they need. We think, “They’re crying because of this,” or, “They’re upset with me because of that,” or, “They’re struggling in school because of this. I know exactly what’s happening because this is what I didn’t get, so I’ll just keep doing the opposite.”

Meanwhile, our children are giving us a million different communications about who they are, what they’re feeling, and what’s actually going on for them, and we’re missing all of it because we’re so committed to this one version of parenting.

Sarah: I also find it can make parents pretty reactive.

I work with a lot of parents who grew up with neglect. They’re actually wonderful parents, but then their child behaves like a perfectly typical five-year-old and, internally, they’re thinking, “Wait a minute. I’m giving you everything I never got. How can you still be crying, yelling, and telling me I’m the worst mother in the world?”

Their own experience of believing, “If only I’d had this...” creates an unrealistic expectation of how their child should behave.

Morgan: Totally.

Where there’s been a lot of neglect, there’s often an internalized rule that says, “Don’t be seen. Don’t be heard. Be quiet. Take up as little space as possible.”

So when your own child takes up a lot of space—expressing big emotions, having big reactions—that can feel incredibly frightening.

What we don’t realize in those moments is that your child’s willingness to express their feelings, even to tell you they hate you, is actually a sign that they feel safe enough to do that.

It’s not your job to talk them out of their feelings. It’s your job to help them metabolize those feelings—to help make those emotions digestible for them—rather than trying to change them or shame them out of having them. They don’t need you to erase their feelings. They need you to help them move through them.

Sarah: In peaceful parenting, we talk about welcoming feelings.

What about maintaining a relationship with an emotionally immature parent? I actually kind of know the answer because I’ve taken your masterclass. What’s it called again?

Morgan: Protect Your Peace.

Sarah: Protect Your Peace. Yes. It’s wonderful. We’ll link to it because I recommend it for everyone.

But how do you think about having—or not having—a relationship with an emotionally immature parent?

Morgan: It really depends on whether you genuinely want that relationship.

Emotionally immature parents often raise their children using obligation and guilt, so you grow up without even realizing that you have choices. You’re recruited into following their expectations, and then one day you become an adult and realize you actually don’t enjoy this relationship with your parent—or maybe you don’t even want one—but it doesn’t feel like that’s an option.

So the first step is taking it up with yourself.

Do I actually want this relationship? And if I do, why?

Not from a place of pressure or with some hidden agenda. Even when people come to work with me one-on-one, unless someone is experiencing ongoing abuse, I don’t have an opinion about whether they should stay in contact with their parent. The healing work is learning to reconnect with your own sense of self, your own needs, and your own desires. I’m not going to become another authority figure telling someone what they should do.

Instead, I encourage people to ask themselves, “If I do want this relationship, what do I want it to look like?”

Boundaries don’t really exist in emotionally immature family systems. If you grew up with an emotionally immature parent, chances are you struggle with boundaries. So I ask people to imagine what it would look like if they actually got to customize this relationship.

Would you call as often as you do now? Would you attend every family gathering? Would you have a separate phone number just for them? What would you put in place to protect yourself while still maintaining the relationship, if that’s what you genuinely wanted?

Sarah: Because there may be reasons to continue the relationship.

Maybe you have a wonderful relationship with your other parent and you want to preserve that. I can imagine there are very thoughtful—not in a negative sense, but very intentional—reasons someone might choose to stay in a relationship they otherwise wouldn’t.

Morgan: One hundred percent.

And sometimes people don’t really have a choice. They may still be living with their parents. There may be financial realities to consider.

There’s also a very real psychological cost to going no-contact with a parent. It’s not an easy decision, even though a lot of online conversations make it sound simple. For the adult children of emotionally immature parents, that decision is often something they’ve wrestled with internally for years before they even consider it.

Most people don’t want to jump straight to no contact.

Instead, they’ll often begin by saying, “Let me see what happens if I put some boundaries in place first. If I’m going to have this relationship, here’s what I need it to look like.”

Sarah: Can you give an example of what one of those boundaries or parameters might look like?

Morgan: Sure.

It might be something like, “I’ll have one twenty-minute phone call every Sunday.” Or, “I don’t answer the phone during my workday because I’m working.”

Some people even block their parent’s number and only unblock it when they’re ready to call. Others use a second phone line app where all of their parent’s texts and calls go, but they turn off the notifications so they only check it when they choose to.

Boundaries can also involve where you go and what you participate in. Do you attend every wedding? Every Christmas dinner? Every family event?

Or they might involve what happens when you’re together. Maybe you’ve decided that if a certain topic comes up, you’ll say, “I don’t want to talk about that.” If your parent continues, you might say, “If we’re going to keep talking about this, I’m going to leave.” And if they continue, you actually leave.

That’s what makes it a boundary—you follow through.

Ultimately, it comes back to recognizing that this is someone you don’t feel emotionally or psychologically safe around. Once you accept that, it becomes much easier to ask yourself what you need in order to protect your peace.

People start realizing things like, “I don’t want to discuss this topic,” or, “I don’t want to stay on the phone for an hour because all they do is talk at me,” or, “I can’t answer calls in the middle of my workday.” Once you start giving yourself permission to prioritize your own safety, those answers often become surprisingly clear.

Sarah: And just to be clear, I know this is what you mean, but for anyone listening, a boundary is something you do. It’s not something you make another person do.

Morgan: Exactly.

A boundary is really an if-then statement.

“If you continue criticizing my body, then I’m going to leave.”

Sarah: Right. The boundary isn’t, “You’re not allowed to criticize my body,” because you can’t control another person. You can only decide what you’re going to do if they continue.

Morgan: Exactly. We have zero control over another person’s behavior.

Once we reconnect with ourselves, we stop asking, “How do I make my parent stop doing this?” and start asking, “Given that I can’t control them, what control do I actually have?”

I can hang up the phone. I can leave. I can tell them I didn’t appreciate what they said. I can choose not to attend the next family event. I can change the subject.

It’s always about what I’m going to do rather than trying to control someone else.

Sarah: Do you ever see emotionally immature parents genuinely change?

Morgan: Is it common? No.

Does it happen? Absolutely.

I’ve seen it happen in my own practice, and I’ve had clients tell me about meaningful changes they’ve experienced with their parents.

If someone is on the milder end of emotional immaturity and they truly realize they’re at risk of losing their relationship with their children, some parents do choose to go to therapy. They do the work. They genuinely try to repair.

But, in my experience, they’re the minority.

It takes an enormous amount of self-awareness. It requires being willing to recognize that you’ve caused harm.

Sarah: Which is exactly what’s so difficult in the first place, right? That lack of self-awareness is part of what created the problem.

Morgan: Exactly.

It’s a lack of self-awareness, but it’s also a lack of capacity to tolerate being the “bad guy.”

Emotionally immature parents often play a game of trying to identify who the bad person is, and somehow it’s always someone else.

When their adult child says, “You really hurt me when you did this,” or, “I’m still struggling because of the way you treated me growing up,” some parents become incredibly skilled at finding explanations for why it wasn’t actually their fault—why circumstances made them do it, or why the child was really the problem.

Those are parents who, at least in that moment, aren’t able to repair because they simply can’t tolerate the idea that they’ve done something wrong.

There can be an enormous amount of shame underneath that, especially if they’re already carrying years of unresolved shame from their own childhood experiences.

It takes a tremendous amount of emotional capacity to stay present with that and choose repair instead.

Sarah: One thing I saw on your Instagram really caught my attention. You were talking about how people often say, “Well, I was doing the best I could,” and you took issue with that.

I always teach that people are doing the best they can. That’s genuinely a philosophy I hold. But I would add, “Sometimes your best still wasn’t good enough.”

Would you agree with that?

Morgan: One hundred percent.

The issue I take with the phrase, “They were doing the best they could,” or, “I was doing the best I could,” is that, all of a sudden, we’ve left the adult child’s experience and shifted entirely into the parent’s experience.

The child has just brought you mountains of pain about things you’ve done, and suddenly the conversation becomes a justification. It becomes a rationalization. We’re no longer learning anything about the child’s experience because the conversation has been shut down by the statement, “I was doing the best I could.”

In that moment, it isn’t actually helpful. It’s functioning to protect the parent, which is exactly what that family system has always been organized around.

At its core, it’s almost a semantic argument. What does “doing your best” actually mean? Is it Olympic-level effort every single day? That’s not really the point.

The point is that we’ve once again centered the parent’s experience and stopped being curious about the child’s.

Sarah: Right. I think if a parent could say, “I did the best I could, and I realize it wasn’t good enough,” that could actually be very healing for everyone involved.

Morgan: Totally.

As long as the next sentence is, “Tell me more... and I can take it.”

That’s really the crucial part.

More than anything else, children need to know that their parent can survive their feelings. Whether a parent is emotionally immature or not, if a child grows up believing, “My parent can handle my emotions,” that child is much more likely to become emotionally healthy.

Too often, though, emotionally immature parents experience their child’s feelings as personal attacks. The child learns that their parent can’t survive those feelings.

And if Mom can’t survive my anger, or Dad can’t survive my frustration, then how am I supposed to survive these enormous feelings?

Sarah: That makes so much sense.

That’s exactly what we teach in peaceful parenting, too—that by staying grounded when our children have big emotions, we’re teaching them that feelings aren’t emergencies. They learn emotional regulation by watching us not become overwhelmed by their feelings.

Tell me about emotionally immature parents as grandparents. Do you see the same patterns showing up, or is the relationship with grandchildren different?

Morgan: In my experience, emotionally immature parents often try much harder with their grandchildren.

Sometimes I think that’s still connected to image management. They want to be seen as the wonderful grandparent. But they’re also older by that stage, and grandchildren represent something of a fresh start.

Here’s someone who doesn’t yet have years of hurt or disappointment with them. Here’s another opportunity to be liked, to be admired, to build a relationship. So I often see them showing up with more effort and a little more tolerance than they had with their own children. They also tend to feel less threatened because these aren’t their children to raise.

That said, many adult children become very protective of their own kids. They may decide, “Even if you’re somewhat better than you used to be, you still aren’t emotionally safe for my child.”

Sarah: Right. They’re still centering themselves.

Morgan: Exactly.

It’s still coming from a place of wanting to be seen as a certain kind of grandparent. Sometimes grandchildren become another bargaining chip—another thing the adult child supposedly owes them. Access to the grandchildren becomes another arena where the family drama can play out.

Sarah: Yeah. Holy heck.

You and I both talk about delighting in your child.

When I teach it, I explain that children learn to see themselves through our eyes, and delight is also such a powerful way to build connection. For anyone listening who hasn’t heard either of us talk about it, I describe it as letting the love you already feel in your heart actually show on your face.

Talk to me about the role delight plays in your work.

Morgan: This is something that the adult children of emotionally immature parents yearn for more than almost anything else—to simply be delighted in.

For me, delight looks like a parent who genuinely wonders about their child. A parent who lets themselves be amazed by who their child is, especially in the places where that child is different from them.

Imagine an incredibly athletic parent raising a deeply artistic child. Instead of trying to change them, that parent watches with curiosity and wonder. They’re moved by who their child naturally is.

That communicates something incredibly powerful: You matter to me exactly as you are.

There’s no agenda. There’s no performance required. Your authentic, messy, imperfect self moves me.

Every child needs that experience because it’s permission to keep exploring who they are. It’s permission to feel worthy of love, connection, and care. It creates this deeply rooted sense of, “I belong here. I exist. Who I am is good enough for this world.”

That’s the template we want our children growing up with.

For emotionally immature parents, that kind of delight can feel threatening because it requires surrendering control. But it’s really the sweetest part of parenting. It’s what children are longing for at their core.

Sarah: It’s the best.

There’s a quote—I think it’s from Pam Leo—that says every child needs to know there’s one person who thinks they’re the sun, the moon, and the stars all wrapped up into one wonderful human being.

Sometimes parents ask me, “Shouldn’t my child have a more realistic understanding of how the world works?”

And I always tell them, “The world will teach them that. You don’t have to.”

Morgan: Exactly.

The world is going to be hard enough. Your child doesn’t need you to prepare them by becoming another source of that hardness.

They’re going to encounter disappointment, rejection, and criticism out in the world. What they need is a safe place to come back to.

Knowing there’s always someone in their corner allows them to face that big, scary world much more confidently. Eventually, it isn’t even a conscious thought of, “If everything falls apart, I can always go home.”

Instead, it becomes a felt sense.

“I’ll be okay.”

That feeling becomes woven into who they are because, throughout their life, someone consistently had their back.

Sarah: I’ve interviewed several adults on the podcast who were bullied as children.

One man told me, “My parents loved me so much. I always knew they liked me. They genuinely thought I was wonderful.”

He said he was bullied terribly, especially in middle school, but it never really damaged his self-esteem because he always had that foundation at home. His parents carried him through those experiences, and they didn’t leave lasting scars.

Morgan: That gives me goosebumps.

I work with so many childhood trauma survivors and adult children of emotionally immature parents who say something very different. They’ll tell me, “I know my parent loved me, but I never felt like they liked me.”

They felt looked at with disgust, contempt, disappointment, or criticism. They didn’t feel enjoyed.

Being liked by your parent is profoundly different from simply being loved by them.

I completely agree with your guest. There really is something deeply protective—almost insulating—about growing up knowing your parent genuinely likes who you are.

Sarah: What if you recognize that your partner is an emotionally immature parent?

Morgan: The first step is to honestly assess the capacity for communication within the relationship.

Like we’ve talked about, all of us have emotionally immature moments. That’s why these conversations are worth having. You want to be on the same page about parenting. How are we going to respond when our child has big emotions? What are we going to do when discipline is needed? Can we agree on the kind of parents we want to be?

The way your partner responds to those conversations gives you important information.

If you’re consistently met with defensiveness, denial, minimization, or ridicule, that may be a sign that couples therapy would be helpful, assuming you’re continuing the relationship.

At the same time, your responsibility is to protect your child. You want to make sure that, regardless of what’s happening elsewhere, your child feels emotionally safe with you.

It always begins with trying to have those conversations and seeing whether your partner demonstrates a willingness to grow in emotional maturity—or whether you’re continually running into defenses and distortions that make genuine change very difficult.

Sarah: Is it possible for one parent’s influence to be enough to protect a child from the other parent’s influence?

Morgan: “Enough” is an interesting word because I’d want to know what metric we’re using.

Is one emotionally healthy parent better than none? Absolutely. Without question.

If a child has even one safe base, that alone provides an incredible amount of protection. It creates a buffer. It creates insulation.

That doesn’t mean the other parent’s emotional immaturity won’t affect them. It certainly can.

But we also know that one of the biggest factors in whether a painful experience becomes traumatic isn’t just what happened—it’s whether there’s anyone afterward to help you process it. Trauma isn’t only about going through something painful. It’s also about having no one afterward to help you make sense of it, regulate it, or feel supported through it.

So if a child has one parent who can help them process what happened, who can reconnect with them after those difficult moments, they’re in a much better position.

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, what should I have asked you that I didn’t? Is there anything important we missed?

Morgan: One thing I’m often talking about is helping parents stop taking their child’s emotions as personal attacks.

Parents frequently make these automatic connections: My child is angry, therefore they’re being disrespectful. Or, My child is shutting down, therefore I’m a bad mom or dad.

The reality is that children have a million different reasons for feeling what they’re feeling.

It’s incredibly helpful if, in those moments, you can temporarily remove yourself from the equation. Instead of immediately assuming it’s about you, get curious. Stay with your child. Ask questions. Try to understand what’s happening in their world before creating a story about what’s happening in yours.

We often assume we already know why our child feels the way they do, but we usually don’t.

Step into their world with curiosity instead.

If it is about you, and you’re a safe parent, they’ll tell you.

Then you can take that information up with yourself, talk about it together, and repair if necessary. But first, we have to give children the freedom to have their feelings.

That’s incredibly important.

Sarah: That’s beautiful.

Our work is so aligned. I’m really grateful you came on the podcast today. I’m sure parents are going to learn a lot from this conversation and want to learn more.

Where’s the best place for people to find you and your work?

Morgan: You can find me on Instagram at @morganpommells. My last name is spelled P-O-M-M-E-L-L-S.

Come on over. We talk about emotionally immature parents all the time.

Sarah: We’ll put all the links in the show notes, including your masterclass.

Is that available all the time now?

Morgan: Yes. Protect Your Peace is available anytime.

Sarah: Perfect.

Okay, final question.

What’s one thing you wish every parent knew?

Morgan: I wish every parent knew that they need to work their own st out, or else their st is going to raise their kids.

More often than not, the reaction you’re having, the story you’re telling yourself, the urgency you feel to immediately fix or stop something—that’s about your stuff.

Before turning toward your child, pause and turn toward yourself first.

Ask yourself, What just happened inside me? Why is this particular behavior so triggering? Why is this reaction bringing up something so intense?

That’s incredibly important data about you. In that moment, it’s usually much more about you than it is about your child.

Sarah: It’s so hard because I think a lot of people believe they’ve already done a tremendous amount of personal work before they have kids.

But in my own experience, and from years of coaching parents, there’s a whole layer you simply can’t access until you become a parent.

My husband and I were talking about this the other day. We had our first child when we were thirty, and we’ve often joked that if we’d started younger, maybe we would’ve had more children.

He said, “I don’t know. I probably needed more time to work on my stuff.”

And I said, “I don’t actually think your stuff would’ve shown up. Whether we’d had kids at twenty-five, thirty-five, or forty, there’s a whole layer that simply doesn’t emerge until you become a parent.”

Morgan: Exactly.

The portal hasn’t been unlocked yet.

Parenthood opens an entirely different window into yourself. It activates parts of you that often stay completely dormant until you have children.

There are aspects of yourself that may never become activated at all if you don’t become a parent. Parenting has a unique way of bringing those hidden parts to the surface.

Sarah: Think of all those blissfully happy people out there without children who don’t even know what their issues are.

Morgan: They’re living a very blissful life.

Sarah: Well, thank you so much, Morgan. It’s been such a pleasure.

We’ll put links to all of your work in the show notes, and thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Michaeleen Doucleff and I talk about her new book Dopamine Kids: A Science-Based Plan to Rewire Your Child’s Brain and Take You’re your Family in the Age of Screens and Ultraprocessed Foods. Michaeleen’s position is not that screens and ultra-processed food are “bad.” Rather, Michaeleen explains how they can take the place of things that truly bring us joy and pleasure, leaving us with an empty feeling of "what's next?" and an endless cycle of wanting. We focus on how dopamine has been misunderstood and how it actually works, how magnets like screens and ultraprocessed foods keep us stuck, and small changes you can make to start shifting things in your home.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

And if you love the podcast, FREE ways to help us out:1- Rate and review the podcast in your podcast player app

2- “Like” this post by tapping the heart icon ♥️

3- Share this with a friend. THANK YOU!

We talk about:

00:00 Introduction to Dopamine Kids and why our understanding of dopamine is outdated
02:15 Michaeleen’s journey from NPR science journalist to parenting author
05:00 Dopamine isn’t pleasure—it’s wanting: the neuroscience that changes everything
07:20 Why kids say they’d rather play with friends than be on screens
08:00 The difference between dopamine, serotonin, and real satisfaction
13:30 How apps and ultra-processed foods hijack the brain’s reward system
16:45 Why endless scrolling never feels satisfying
18:30 “Bottomlessness”—one of the biggest design tricks keeping us hooked
20:30 Why we want activities for our kids with a clear purpose and a clear endpoint
22:00 The veggie straw experiment that changed Michaeleen’s thinking about food
26:50 Magnets and cues: how screens become automatic habits
32:00 Why removing screens isn’t enough—you have to replace them
33:30 Helping kids meet their real need for adventure and autonomy
36:00 Small, permanent changes vs. temporary screen detoxes
37:30 Why the car is a great place to start reducing screens
38:00 Is reducing screens really more work?
40:15 Why laws and regulations haven’t caught up with technology
43:00 Why this isn’t a willpower problem
46:30 Can kids ever use screens in moderation?
49:00 Paid video games vs. free games
51:30 This isn’t about screens being “bad”
53:00 Helping kids gradually learn to use technology well
54:00 School Chromebooks and why parents have more influence than they realize
58:00 Advice Michaeleen would give her younger parenting self
1:00:00 Why kids have to experience offline joy before they’ll want it
1:01:00 Sarah’s client who removed the TV—and what happened next
1:02:30 Final thoughts and where to find Michaeleen

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Michaeleen’s website
Dopamine Kids: A Science-Based Plan to Rewire Your Child’s Brain and Take You’re your Family in the Age of Screens and Ultraprocessed Foods
How to Stop Fighting About Video Games with Scott Novis
The Peaceful Parenting Membership

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast.

Today’s guest is journalist Michaeleen Doucleff. She is the author of the book Hunt, Gather, Parent and now has a new book out called Dopamine Kids: A Science-Based Plan to Rewire Your Child’s Brain and Take Back Your Family in the Age of Screens and Ultra-Processed Food.

Michaeleen’s first book is one of our favorite parenting books, and now we can add this one to the list. She walks us through how screens and ultra-processed food hook us and keep our brains stuck in a hijacked wanting cycle without giving us actual rewards and pleasure.

We eventually get around to discussing this, but I want to stress right here at the beginning that Michaeleen isn’t saying that screens and ultra-processed food are evil or that they have no place in our lives. Rather, they can take the place of things that truly bring us joy and pleasure, leaving us with an empty feeling of “what’s next?” and an endless cycle of wanting.

I learned so much from this book. I’d been wanting to make some changes in my own life with my relationship with my phone, and this book helped me understand why it was so hard and what I could do. A hint: as it turns out, we don’t understand dopamine correctly at all. Our cultural shorthand about what dopamine is and what role it plays in the motivation and pleasure cycle is totally outdated.

If you’re interested in making some positive shifts in your child’s life, in your family, and in your own life, you’re going to love this interview and Michaeleen’s book.

If you like this episode, please share it with a friend so more parents can learn about peaceful parenting. If you’re a fan of the podcast, you can help us out not only by sharing it, but by leaving a review and a five-star rating in your podcast player app. While you’re there, don’t forget to follow the show so you don’t miss an episode.

If you’d like to support us even more, you can become a supporter on Substack to help us offset the cost of making the show. We’ll put a link in the show notes.

Let’s meet Michaeleen. I hope you enjoy this conversation and get as much out of her insights as I did.

Sarah: Hi, Michaeleen. Welcome back to the podcast.

Michaeleen: Thank you so much for having me.

Sarah: When we had you on a few years ago to talk about your first parenting book, Hunt, Gather, Parent—we’ll link to it in the show notes—it ended up being one of our favorite podcasts out of the 200-some episodes we’ve done. I’m so excited to have you back to talk about your new book.

Michaeleen: Thank you so much. That’s so nice. It’s an honor to come back.

Sarah: I’m so happy to have you. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Michaeleen: I was—or I still am—a science journalist. I’ve been one now for about 16 years, and I spent 13 or 14 years as a radio correspondent at NPR. I’m still there covering children’s health, global health, neuroscience, and psychology.

Before that, I was trained as a chemist. I have a PhD in chemistry.

Five years ago, I wrote the parenting book Hunt, Gather, Parent, and I had no idea I’d ever become a parenting expert. That definitely wasn’t on my life bingo card.

When I had my daughter Rosie almost 11 years ago, I had no clue what I was doing. It just seemed like an impossible task. Then I started studying parenting around the world, and I realized there was an easier way to do things. That’s what Hunt, Gather, Parent is about.

More recently, about six years ago, I was really trying to fix my own screen problem—my own addiction to my phone. I was so obsessed with it. As I investigated neuroscience, psychology, and behavioral psychology, I started to realize, “Oh gosh, we’re really getting a lot of things wrong when it comes to screens and our kids.”

That led me to write this next book, Dopamine Kids, to clarify a bunch of myths but also update the advice because it’s really old. A lot of the advice out there is based on psychology from 20, 30, even 40 years ago.

Sarah: Or even more.

Michaeleen: Exactly.

Sarah: Exactly. And I’m going to ask you about that. So tell us, what’s the central idea behind your new book, Dopamine Kids?

Michaeleen: One of the biggest ideas is that we’re thinking about screens wrong. We think they’re these endless sources of pleasure. We think dopamine is this molecule that brings us pleasure and that the more we have, the happier we are.

But that’s really old neuroscience.

What dopamine actually gives us is the feeling of desire, wanting, and craving. It makes us obsessed.

So what screens are doing is cranking that system up. They’re increasing motivation, craving, and wanting. But if you look at what happens over time, they actually rob us of pleasure and reduce the amount of pleasure we experience in our lives.

So this idea that screens—video games and social media—are treats and rewards for kids is wrong. It’s all wrong.

What is actually most rewarding and pleasurable for kids are things in the real world because real-world experiences don’t just give us desire and wanting. They also give us satisfaction, joy, and long-lasting pleasure.

So Dopamine Kids is really a reset of what actually brings our kids pleasure in life. It also provides a toolset to retrain your kids’ brains so they naturally want and reach for offline activities and foods that make them feel good—foods that really nourish them and bring satisfaction.

It’s about rethinking our idea of pleasure. What does pleasure actually look like?

I think the media, marketing, and corporations have taught us that pleasure and wanting are basically the same thing—that we want things because they bring us pleasure.

But if you actually look at the science and the data, there are so many things out there that drive our wanting while robbing us of pleasure.

Social media is a really good example. Kids use it because they want a sense of belonging. They want to feel connected. But over the long run, social media does the opposite. It makes them feel lonelier, and yet they still want it.

I see this book as an operating manual for shaping and changing your kids’ habits into the ones you want for them as a parent, but also habits that nourish kids and bring joy, happiness, and pleasure to the whole family.

We often think limiting screens is about depriving kids of pleasure.

It’s actually the opposite.

It’s about reclaiming pleasure.

Sarah: I had Lenore Skenazy on the podcast. Do you know her work?

Michaeleen: Yeah, we’re friends.

Sarah: She was on the podcast a few months ago, and she was talking about how, if you ask kids what they want—would they rather be on screens or play with their friends?—by far the number one answer is playing with their friends, not being on screens.

Michaeleen: Yeah. I think it’s almost double.

Sarah: Exactly. And yet I don’t think most parents realize that.

Michaeleen: Right. I didn’t realize that either. I think it’s because we confuse begging, screaming, and tantruming for the screen with joy and pleasure.

Sarah: Okay, so tell us about that, because what I learned from your book is that everyone thinks dopamine is, “Ah, I just got a hit of dopamine and I feel so good.”

Michaeleen: Yeah.

Sarah: But it’s not dopamine that makes you feel good. It’s serotonin and, I think, endorphins that make you feel good.

You go into this in much more detail in the book, and I highly recommend it. It was excellent. I have to tell you, I was on an office hours call with my membership before I even knew you had written a new book, and one of my members said, “I’m reading this parenting book called Dopamine Kids, and it’s a page-turner.”

She said, “I’ve never had a parenting book that’s a page-turner, but you’ve got to get your hands on this.”

Then I looked it up and realized it was your book, and I was so excited to get it and read it.

Can you explain the basic idea? I know it’s too much detail to go into fully, but what’s the difference? What does dopamine actually do, and why isn’t it what we think it is?

Michaeleen: For a long time—really since the 1950s—neuroscientists thought we do things over and over again because they’re pleasurable.

Neuroscientists have been obsessed with getting people and animals to press buttons for over a hundred years. Rats, mice, apes, pigeons—they’ve all been part of these experiments. It’s almost like an iPad. Press, press, press, tap.

For a long time, researchers could stimulate one region of the brain—the dopamine center—and the animals would go crazy pressing the button all day long. They wouldn’t even stop to go to the bathroom. It makes you think of someone playing video games for hours. They’re just obsessed with pressing the button.

Researchers believed that because this was the dopamine center of the brain, dopamine made you press the button because it felt good and brought you pleasure. They even conducted similar experiments with people, and that very simple explanation stood for a long time.

Then, about 30 years ago, a couple of scientists came along and asked, “Wait a second. Is this really true? Do we always act because something is pleasurable?”

They designed better experiments, and what they found was astonishing. Dopamine doesn’t do that at all.

Dopamine makes us want.

It makes you want something, and it makes you want to do something over and over again. It’s like a “do it again” button in the brain.

Do it again.

Whenever you can, do it again.

The way the system is supposed to work is that first you want something, and dopamine motivates you to work for it. Then, when you get what you wanted, the pleasure center starts to light up.

Those are different neurotransmitters. That’s where endorphins—the body’s natural opioids—and serotonin come in.

Serotonin allows you to appreciate what you have. It’s what lets you say, “Oh, I got what I wanted. I feel really good. Ah... I can stop now. I can take a break.”

In many ways, pleasure is the opposite of dopamine because it gives you satisfaction, and satisfaction stops wanting.

There are a couple of classic examples. One is sex, which is probably the R-rated version. But another is thirst.

Imagine you’re running on a hot day. You’ve run out of water, and after half an hour or an hour, you really want something to drink.

That’s dopamine. That’s your dopamine hit—that strong feeling of desire.

Wanting can actually feel good. If I fall in love and I want to be with my partner, the wanting feels good.

But wanting can also become frustrating. If you want something for too long and don’t get it, that feeling turns into frustration.

So you’re out running on this hot day thinking, “Oh my gosh, I want water so badly.”

That’s dopamine.

That’s not pleasure yet.

Then you see a glass of water, or you get one and take a drink, and you think, “Ah, that feels so good.”

That’s the pleasure system.

Sarah: That’s where you get the serotonin and the endorphins.

Michaeleen: Exactly. And the endocannabinoids too—the body’s natural cannabinoids. A whole bunch of things kick in.

The wonderful thing about this pleasure response is that it can last a long time. It lingers. It makes you feel optimistic and gives your life a kind of glow because you’ve gotten what you need to survive.

I remember being really upset as a kid, and my mom would come over and hug me. I’d bury my face into her, and it felt so good. It was just this feeling that everything was okay again.

That’s what these pleasure molecules do.

Dopamine is saying, “Everything is not okay. I need this before things can be okay.”

They’re very different.

Sarah: Okay. This is the part I still feel like I’m only beginning to understand.

How do the makers of apps and video games—and we’ve mostly been talking about screens, but you also write a lot about ultra-processed foods—how do they get us stuck in the dopamine cycle?

What I took away from your book is that these things are so powerful because they keep us trapped in that cycle of wanting...

Sarah: What I understood from your book is that these things are so powerful because they keep us stuck in the dopamine cycle. It’s just wanting, wanting, wanting.

You said something in the book about how they’ve figured out a way to hack a weakness in our brain circuitry. Forgive me if that’s not the exact wording, but they’ve essentially hacked a weakness in the brain to keep us stuck in dopamine without ever giving us a real reward.

How does that work?

Michaeleen: First of all, both the tech industry and the food industry have admitted this for a long time. This isn’t something I’ve come up with. They’ve openly admitted it. Even the food industry says, “We want to make something you can’t stop eating.”

Sarah: Right. You read all these interviews with industry insiders, and they’re very open about it. Everybody knows they’ve admitted it. But how does it actually work?

Michaeleen: There are a lot of tricks.

Let’s start with screens because a lot of these techniques actually came from the gambling industry. In the ‘80s and ‘90s, casinos started replacing mechanical slot machines and poker machines with video versions—basically gambling apps on giant touchscreens.

They explicitly asked, “What can we do to this game to keep people playing for as long as possible?” Some people would play for 24 or even 48 hours straight. They ran massive A/B tests to figure out exactly how they could tweak the games to send people into this dopamine loop—this wanting loop—where people actually stopped wanting to win because winning took them out of the loop.

So it’s very empirical. They’ve simply tested what keeps people there.

In the book, I describe it as a kind of recipe parents can use to recognize whether an app is doing this to their child. Psychologists even have a name for this state. It’s called dark flow, where you lose track of time and where you are. We’ve all experienced it while scrolling social media. Twenty or thirty minutes go by and you think, “What just happened?” You’re in this loop of wanting because, if you actually experienced pleasure and satisfaction, you would stop. You’d stop wanting.

One of the biggest tricks is speed. The faster the cycle runs, the more it traps you. If you think about videos and video games, they’ve become faster and faster. Even children’s iPad games are just question, answer, question, answer, question, answer over and over again. That’s driving up dopamine.

But where’s the satisfaction? What’s the reward? Basically, it’s just a light on the screen.

Another trick is promising something fundamental. The dopamine system evolved to help us fulfill our basic human needs—water, food, social support, adventure, creation. These are things we needed to survive, so kids are naturally highly motivated to pursue them.

These apps promise they’ll meet those needs. Social media, for example, promises belonging. It says, “Get on here and you’ll finally feel connected. You’ll finally feel like you belong.” The problem is that it never actually fulfills that promise.

If you look at some of the leaked internal documents, you can see the algorithms intentionally withhold what people actually want. One neuroscientist explained it this way: they figure out what you’re looking for and why you’re on social media, then they give you something that’s close to what you want. Maybe on the next click they give you something a little closer. Then a little closer.

This does several things. First, you never actually receive the reward because you never get what you really need. Second, you develop this feeling of making progress—as though you’re getting closer and closer. “Maybe one more comment. Maybe five more likes. Then I’ll finally get it.”

What most people don’t realize is that we produce the most dopamine not when we get what we want, or even when we think we’re about to get it, but when we feel like we’re making progress.

That’s one of the biggest tricks.

Video games are a perfect example. Kids always feel like they’re making a little more progress. A little more. A little more. By the time they reach the next level, they’re already making progress toward another one.

There are all these different tricks designed to crank up wanting while dialing down satisfaction and pleasure because satisfaction is what gets you off the game. You think, “Okay, I’m done.”

The same thing applies to social media. If social media actually gave me what I was looking for, I’d be finished. I’d think, “I got what I needed. I’m done.”

But it never gives it to you.

It can’t.

Sarah: I started feeling kind of gross about how much time I was spending on Instagram and Facebook—really just on my phone in general. I’d think, “Oh, I need a five-minute break,” and immediately pick up my phone.

Actually, I did this before I started reading your book, but now I realize it fits perfectly with what you’re talking about. I downloaded the New York Times Games app.

Now, when I feel like I need a little break, I’ll do Wordle or the Mini Crossword or Connections. What’s nice is that it’s limited. You get one crossword, one mini crossword, one Wordle, and one Connections each day.

I’m almost never on Facebook or Instagram anymore because of it. It actually feels like a real reward. I finish the crossword and think, “Oh, I did the Mini in one minute and 38 seconds.”

There’s an ending to it. It really does feel like I accomplished something, which is very different.

Michaeleen: Exactly. And you’ve actually stumbled onto one of the biggest tricks: bottomlessness.

This is huge.

TV didn’t used to be bottomless.

Michaeleen: TV didn’t used to be bottomless. You had a handful of channels, and eventually the content ended or it got bad enough that you simply stopped watching.

Now everything is endless. There’s always another news story, another level in a game, another post, another video. That endlessness is what keeps us trapped in the cycle.

You actually did so many things right with the New York Times Games app. You found something that takes a little more effort, but it also has a clear stopping point. You finish it, and then you’re done. You created a bottom.

That’s exactly what I want to do with my own kids. I want to help them find activities that have a clear purpose and a clear ending. When you’re done, you’re done, and you turn it off.

Compare that with scrolling Instagram for 30 minutes. What’s the purpose? What are you actually doing? What are you looking for? There’s always more content. It never ends, and it’s incredibly fast.

I think it’s Chapter 4 of the book where I talk about figuring out how to use these technologies—if you’re going to use them at all—in ways that don’t manipulate you into these loops but instead feel genuinely satisfying.

People often ask, “How do you know it’s a real reward?” Your brain tells you. You feel better afterward than you did before. You feel done. You feel full. You think, “I’m ready to stop.”

If, instead, you’re thinking, “What’s next? One more. One more,” then you’re still stuck in the loop.

For a lot of people—for a lot of kids, and certainly for me—that loop is frustrating and deeply unsatisfying. It just makes life feel gray and gloomy.

Sarah: I noticed something a while ago. One of my favorite activities in the world is reading, and I realized I can’t read if my phone is in the same room with me.

When I was reading your book, I thought, “This is something I absolutely love doing, but it doesn’t create that same dopamine loop.”

Reading doesn’t do that.

I actually have to keep my phone in another room because reading takes more effort than scrolling Instagram.

Michaeleen: Exactly. It takes more work, and that’s part of why it’s more satisfying.

We’re made to work. Human beings are actually very good at working, and that effort is part of what creates satisfaction. If something is too easy, it’s much easier to get trapped in the wanting loop.

Sarah: You also say in the book that, evolutionarily, our brains are designed to look for the easy way out.

Back when life was hard, that made perfect sense.

But now that everything comes to us so easily, it doesn’t make sense anymore.

Michaeleen: That’s exactly right. These products are exploiting that tendency.

Food is probably where you can see it most clearly.

Our brains evolved to look for the foods with the most calories per bite. Why would you eat something with fewer calories per bite, especially when food was scarce? That’s how we evolved.

We also evolved to look for calories that our bodies could use quickly. A refined white-flour cracker gives you calories much faster than a carrot does. You’d have to eat carrots for much longer to get the same energy.

Our brains are completely designed to choose the cracker.

You’d never touch the carrot. It doesn’t make evolutionary sense.

That’s especially true for kids, who are eating much more instinctively. But honestly, I’d argue that adults have the same problem. If the crackers are sitting there beside the carrots, most adults are going to have a hard time choosing the carrot.

Sarah: Tell the story about the strawberries and the veggie straws.

Michaeleen: This was when I really understood what was happening.

Rosie was about eight years old, and we went to the pool with one of her friends. I packed raw edamame and strawberries. The girls were tired and hungry, and they were happily eating them. They were enjoying them.

Then I pulled out a bag of veggie straws—which, by the way, aren’t really veggies and aren’t really straws. They’re basically highly processed potato starch.

Sarah: I think it’s extruded potato starch.

Michaeleen: You’re right. Extruded potato starch.

The starch is chemically extracted from the potato, so there’s really nothing potato-like left except the starch. It’s heated at a very high temperature, pushed through machinery, then sprayed with fat or basically fried and covered with salt.

If you really look at the research, your body treats it almost like sugar. It practically dissolves in your mouth. There’s almost no digestion required. It moves into your gut and into your bloodstream incredibly quickly.

So even though the package says “veggie” and even though it says “potato,” what you’re really getting are extremely fast calories, much like sugar.

The moment I put those veggie straws on the table, those two girls ate the entire bag.

One after another.

You want to talk about dopamine?

“Do it again. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again.”

They didn’t stop until every single veggie straw was gone.

And then they completely forgot about the strawberries and the edamame.

That was the moment I realized that if any ultra-processed food is available, kids simply won’t choose the whole foods.

Sarah: You asked Rosie afterward which she actually liked better, and she said, “Oh, the strawberries.”

Michaeleen: Exactly. Even though she genuinely likes strawberries better—they taste better—her brain, and all of our brains, are designed to choose the veggie straws because they’re such a dense source of fast calories.

That realization led me to start doing little experiments. I’d make homemade meals with whole foods, then put one ultra-processed starch on the table—a dinner roll or some corn chips. I’d sit there and watch my husband and Rosie eat all of the ultra-processed food first. Then my husband might eat some of the whole foods, but Rosie wouldn’t touch them.

It wasn’t her fault. It wasn’t my fault. This is simply how our brains are designed. It makes perfect sense from an evolutionary perspective, and the food industry is explicitly taking advantage of that. If you look at the calorie density of ultra-processed foods, it’s gone up and up over time. What really surprised me, though, is that it isn’t just about sugar. Sugar clearly triggers dopamine—”Do it again. Do it again.” But highly refined potato starch, corn starch, and white flour are just as powerful, and in some studies they’re actually more addictive than foods with added sugar.

I recently read a study describing almost the exact recipe you mentioned: extruded starch that’s fried or sprayed with a little fat and loaded with salt. That combination is incredibly addictive. The moment you see it, you want it, and then you eat it. The dopamine hit actually happens before you eat it. It’s, “Oh, I see the bag. I want the bag.” That’s the dopamine.

Then there’s almost no satisfaction or pleasure because satisfaction comes from protein and fiber—and, to a lesser extent, fat. Those are the things that make you feel, “Ah, I’ve had enough. I’m done.” Ultra-processed foods have stripped away almost everything that creates that feeling of satisfaction. That’s what pleasure actually is.

I really believe we can learn to tell the difference between wanting and genuine pleasure. Just like you did with the New York Times games, you replaced endless scrolling—which kept you wanting more—with something that actually makes you feel good every day.

Sarah: Can you talk a little bit about what you call “magnets” and “cues”?

I finished your book last week—it really was a page-turner—and I’m already putting some of your ideas into practice. One of the simplest suggestions was to stop carrying your phone around everywhere. I wore a watch to a baseball game the other night because I didn’t want to keep taking out my phone just to check the time.

Then this morning I went for a walk with my daughter and left my phone at home. When I got back, I made something to eat and did a couple of other things before I suddenly realized, “Oh—I left my phone upstairs for two hours.”

Just the act of not taking it with me on the walk and leaving it in another room made it disappear from my mind. It was amazing.

Michaeleen: I love that. That’s beautiful.

I call phones, video games, iPads, and ultra-processed foods magnets because neuroscientists actually use the term motivational magnets, and that’s where I borrowed it from. They work through space, and they create what we call cues.

Let’s use screens instead of veggie straws. Imagine Rosie comes home every day after school and plays Toca Boca World on the iPad.

Sarah: My daughter used to play those hairdressing games—and even vacuuming games. I never understood the appeal until I read your book and realized she was basically getting dopamine-mined.

Michaeleen: Exactly. If you look at what keeps young children on those apps, it’s the repetition. They’re doing essentially the same thing over and over again, which is actually very unsatisfying.

At first, what keeps Rosie playing are those little dopamine hits—”Do it again. Do it again.” But over time, something fascinating happens: the dopamine hit moves backward in time. Eventually, just seeing the iPad triggers dopamine. Simply seeing it creates desire and makes her really want it. Dopamine doesn’t just make us want things—it motivates us to work to get them.

So she sees the iPad, and suddenly she wants it. If it’s sitting there, good luck getting her interested in anything else because her brain has already triggered that powerful feeling of, “I need this to survive.” She’ll be pulled toward it like a magnet. That’s where the term comes from. You don’t just want it—you physically move toward it. You want to pick it up. You want to hold it. You want to touch it.

Even if it’s hidden away in a drawer or a closet, if she knows it’s there, those magnets work through walls. She’ll go looking for it.

Sarah: Have you seen that study where students either had their phone on their desk, in their backpack, or in another room? Just having it in the backpack was almost as distracting as having it sitting on the desk.

Michaeleen: That’s exactly right, because they know it’s accessible. Over time, these cues become so deeply wired into our brains that we don’t even have to see the object anymore. We just have to know it’s there.

What’s often triggering the habit isn’t even the phone itself—it’s an emotion. For example, when I’m writing and I get a little frustrated, that feeling becomes the cue: “Go check the news.” That used to be mine. Then it became, “Go check your email.” Now I’ve stopped checking the news, so mine has become, “Go check the weather.”

Sarah: At least that can only last so long unless you’re checking the weather around the world.

Michaeleen: Exactly. It’s much less sticky.

But that’s the point. If the phone is in the backpack, the brain knows it’s available. These magnets work through walls. They work through bags. To really make those cues disappear, you have to do exactly what you did. You leave it at home. Your brain knows, “I can’t get it. I’m not walking all the way back home for it,” so it lets go.

As parents, we have to make these things completely disappear within a particular context. That’s another really important piece of this: magnets and cues work in contexts.

Every day after school is a context for Rosie’s brain. Every day after school, in our house, she plays Toca Boca World. So when she walks into the living room at four o’clock, her brain already knows what time it is, even without a watch. Human brains are incredibly good at tracking those patterns.

That context triggers dopamine. It triggers the desire for Toca Boca World.

What we want to do instead is use that same context to trigger a desire for something that actually fills her up. Maybe after school in the living room becomes the cue for making art, riding her bike, or going outside.

That’s really what Dopamine Kids is about: using dopamine to get your kids excited about the real world and training their brains accordingly.

Sarah: Can I back you up a little bit there? Because one thing you say in your book is that it doesn’t work to simply take the screens away and say, “Let them be bored. They’ll figure it out.”

That’s really the only other advice I’ve seen out there: just take the screens away and let kids be bored.

But you did a lot of work to create opportunities for dopamine from other things. You didn’t just tell Rosie, “No more Toca Boca World.”

Can you talk about that? I think a lot of parents try the approach of saying, “Okay, we’re just not doing screens anymore.” Then they end up with weeks—or maybe months—of crying and begging: “Can I just play a little?”

Michaeleen: I think that approach can sometimes work with very little kids, but even then I don’t think it lasts. These things are like weeds. The screens will come back unless you replace them with something else.

Behavioral psychology is actually very clear on this. It’s much easier to create a new habit than it is to break an old one. It’s much easier to replace a behavior than simply remove it.

For example, while I was writing Dopamine Kids, I decided I wanted to stop drinking as much. I had gotten into the habit of having a glass of wine every night, and I realized it just wasn’t working for me anymore.

I didn’t simply take it away. I bought non-alcoholic beer. I replaced it with something.

Kids are the same way.

If you just take away the iPad—especially if they’ve been using it for a long time—their brain has come to believe it’s something they need to survive. That’s what these products have tricked the brain into believing. So when you take it away, it genuinely feels awful.

But if you give them another activity that’s exciting, interesting, and something they genuinely want to do, taking the screen away doesn’t feel nearly as difficult. Over time, you can actually help them discover activities that make them feel even better than the iPad does.

That’s what creates a permanent habit instead of a temporary one.

Behavioral psychology is pretty clear that kids are using these things because they’re trying to meet a need.

Rosie wasn’t obsessed with Toca Boca World or cartoons because she wanted screens. She wanted adventure.

Adventure is a fundamental human need for kids. You could also call it autonomy, but I like the word adventure because I think it’s easier to understand. Kids need to explore, learn, and take little risks. They need that in order to feel good.

I think a lot of kids are using screens to try to fill that need.

So instead of simply taking screens away and leaving that need unmet, you have to backfill it.

I said to Rosie, “Tonight we’re not going to watch Netflix. We’re going to take a break. Instead, we’re going to do something you’ve been dying to do that I just haven’t made time for yet. You’re going to ride your bike to the market by yourself.”

I would even say to her, “Instead of watching cartoon characters have adventures, you’re going to have a real adventure yourself.”

That’s the difference.

You’re taking something that was trying—but ultimately failing—to meet a real human need and replacing it with something that actually does.

When you do that, it’s not nearly as hard.

It goes back to what you mentioned earlier about kids saying they’d rather be with their friends than on screens. That same research also found that kids would rather be outside playing than watching screens. So you’re giving them the opportunity to do the thing they actually want to do.

That’s really the process: figure out a replacement activity—or a replacement food—and then gradually begin taking the old thing away.

The result is that your child isn’t angry at you all the time. Your relationship is better because they have something wonderful replacing what they lost.

More importantly, it creates a lasting habit because they’re not simply complying with a rule. They’re building a hobby, a skill, or a way of living that genuinely brings them pleasure and meets their needs.

One of my biggest concerns with a lot of the screen advice that’s out there is that it isn’t permanent.

Real change comes from making small but permanent changes.

It’s not, “We’re doing a 30-day screen detox.”

It’s, “We don’t use screens after dinner anymore,” or, “We don’t use screens on Saturdays.”

And that’s just how our family does things now.

That’s how you train the brain.

If you keep bringing the old habit back, you undo the learning and go right back to where you started.

So I always encourage people to think small—but think permanent.

Sarah: One suggestion you make is starting with something simple, like, “We don’t do screens in the car.”

Michaeleen: Yes.

Sarah: I think that’s such a great place to start. Your book is full of practical little ideas like that, so the whole thing doesn’t feel overwhelming.

We’ve been talking about some of the bigger concepts, but the book is incredibly practical.

I’m working on a book myself right now, so I know how much work goes into something like this. I just want to say you did a really beautiful job balancing the theory with concrete things families can actually do.

I really, really recommend it.

Michaeleen: Thank you.

The car is a great place to start because it’s such a clear context for a child’s brain.

They get into the car and their brain thinks, “Screen time.”

Instead, you can make the car mean, “Reading time,” or “Journaling time,” or even “Bored time.”

It’s a really useful place to begin because they’re already somewhat contained, so it’s easier to establish a new routine.

Sarah: I love that.

The one thing I want to ask about—and I hope you don’t take this as criticism—is that some of what you’ve done takes a lot of time and energy privilege.

Michaeleen: Yes. I think it’s very similar to what I found with Hunt, Gather, Parent. There is some work up front, but I also think we dramatically underestimate how much work we’re already doing when we rely on screens as babysitters or pacifiers.

We tend to think that’s the easy route, but even in the short term, I don’t think it actually is.

Sarah: That’s a really good point because the fighting itself takes a lot of energy.

Michaeleen: Exactly. That’s ultimately what made me change and what made me want to write this book. I was just tired of arguing with Rosie about screens. I hated policing her.

It’s very similar to what I found with Hunt, Gather, Parent. Recently, one parent gave me some feedback that I actually thought was really insightful. She said, “I think you could have been clearer that having daily screen time—or unlimited screen time—is actually a lot of work.”

And she’s right.

The parent is managing it every single day, moment by moment. There’s constant fighting, negotiating, and policing.

I’ll tell you something else. Once we got ultra-processed foods out of our house, the amount of work I do around food dropped to about one-tenth of what it had been before. We actually spend less money because we’re eating less.

People don’t realize that ultra-processed food makes you eat more. That’s very well documented. Kids snack constantly when those foods are around. Rosie now eats two or three real meals a day when she’s eating whole foods.

So I’m actually doing much less work because those foods aren’t in the house.

I do agree there’s some work at the beginning. Teaching Rosie to ride her bike to the market took time. But now she’s 10, and she rides her bike everywhere. She bikes to piano lessons. She bikes all over town.

That investment keeps paying dividends.

Sarah: That’s a really fair point.

I had just been telling you before we started recording that, over the years, I’ve noticed more and more parents coming to coaching specifically because of challenges around screen time.

The fights about screens, getting kids off screens—it has become such a common struggle.

They just need to read your book and get some strategies.

Michaeleen: I’m really just trying to encourage people that if they have that gut feeling—that sense of, “This just isn’t working for our family”—it’s okay to say no.

There is a way to do it that doesn’t require an enormous amount of ongoing work.

Really, what you’re doing is setting up the environment so the default becomes these other activities. You’re designing things so you’re not constantly policing or managing every moment.

That’s my biggest pushback against the idea that this approach is more work.

It took a lot of work for me to figure all of this out and understand how it works—

Sarah: And you did that for us.

Michaeleen: Exactly.

I also think the court system—and society more broadly—is slowly starting to catch up. The regulations around screen content are so far behind the technology.

If you think about it, 20 years ago Rosie wouldn’t have been able to walk into a movie like Jaws without a parent. There were very clear rules about what children could and couldn’t see.

Now I can hand her a device that gives her access to some of the most extreme content imaginable.

One scientist told me that a child today can see, in about ten minutes, more pornography than our grandparents’ generation would have encountered in an entire lifetime.

Something is clearly out of balance.

Either society has changed dramatically, or our regulations simply haven’t kept pace.

When you look at child exploitation, trafficking, and abuse online, it’s obvious that regulation is behind.

Sarah: Big Tech has so much money and so much influence that I think that’s part of why the laws have fallen so far behind.

Michaeleen: It absolutely is. But I also think there’s this persistent myth that kids need these technologies and that they’re doing so much good.

One of my hopes for this book—and for the work many other researchers are doing—is that people will begin to understand that kids genuinely need help regulating this stuff.

They cannot regulate it on their own.

Right now, that entire burden falls on parents, and that’s a tremendous amount of work.

Sarah: We can’t regulate it on our own, and we’re grown-ups.

Michaeleen: Exactly.

When I first started researching this book, I interviewed a famous economist at Stanford—someone in his forties who will probably win a Nobel Prize someday. He spent our entire conversation telling me all the systems he had to build so he wouldn’t look at the news while he was working.

He had blocked it at the router. He’d blocked it on his computer. He’d blocked it in multiple other ways.

I remember sitting there thinking, “If he has to do all of that, how is a thirteen-year-old supposed to do her homework?”

That’s one of the central messages of the book.

This isn’t about willpower.

It’s not about teaching kids to resist temptation through self-control.

It’s about teaching them to build environments where they aren’t constantly tempted in the first place.

That’s exactly what you described earlier when you left your phone at home.

You create spaces in your life where the temptation simply isn’t there.

That’s the key to living a happier, healthier life—not relying on willpower, but learning to avoid unnecessary temptation and building habits that don’t require you to fight yourself every day.

Ironically, that’s what ends up making life much easier.

Sarah: That was another really interesting thing you talked about in your book—willpower.

Michaeleen: One of the really interesting findings about willpower is that people with fewer bad habits don’t actually have more willpower. They’ve simply arranged their lives so they’re exposed to fewer temptations.

Sarah: That’s right. A great place to start might be something like what you did with food. You talked about not eating food on the go.

Michaeleen: Exactly. No food on the go.

Sarah: Baby steps.

Michaeleen: Right. Or parents will tell me things like, “We don’t have ultra-processed foods at breakfast.” Breakfast is actually an easy place to start. You have oatmeal. You have eggs. There are lots of simple whole-food options. So you make that one meal your starting point.

That’s really the idea. Start with something small.

I think the same principle applies to parenting. Parenting actually becomes easier when the temptations simply aren’t there. You’re not constantly managing them.

Sarah: When my kids were growing up—and thankfully they mostly missed all of this because my youngest is 19, so there wasn’t Netflix and everything else that’s available now—we had a simple family rule: no screens Monday through Thursday.

Back then it was television, but they just knew that was how our family worked. If they asked, I’d simply say, “Remember, it’s Wednesday. We’ll watch TV on the weekend.”

It was actually very easy.

Michaeleen: Exactly. And that’s the dopamine system at work.

Their brains know what day of the week it is. We’re remarkably good at keeping track of time and routines. They knew they were in your house, after school, and that there wasn’t going to be TV.

It’s like a smoker on an airplane. Eventually the smoker’s brain learns, “I’m on a plane. I can’t smoke.” The craving relaxes because the brain understands the context.

The same thing happens with family routines.

In Israel, for example, many families observe a digital Sabbath where they unplug for a full 24 hours every week. Parents tell me their kids love it because they know that’s the time they play board games, spend time outside, and do other things together.

Their brains learn that weekly rhythm.

Our brains naturally work this way, so we can use that tendency to make family life calmer and more peaceful.

Honestly, one of my favorite outcomes is that when nine o’clock comes around, my daughter is calm and actually wants to go to bed. Whatever effort it took to establish those habits at the beginning has been completely worth it. It’s peaceful now, and hopefully those routines will stay with her for years.

Ironically, it was much harder for me to stop scrolling before bed than it was for her.

Sarah: Do you think there’s any place for moderation?

For example, could Rosie ever pick up Toca Boca again and play it for a little while? Or is it more a case of, once it’s gone, it’s gone?

Michaeleen: That’s a really good question.

I think there are a couple of ways to think about it.

The first is simply asking whether a particular technology is worth it. Does Toca Boca actually give us something valuable enough that it’s worth the possibility of bringing back arguments and struggles? Or is there something else that gives us the same benefit without those downsides?

One of the goals of the book is to help parents start asking that question about technology in general: Is this actually worth it?

The second question is whether your child can handle it.

I use YouTube for work. I’ll watch scientists explaining research, informational videos, or sometimes I’ll listen to music. I also know all the tricks YouTube is playing on me, so I can use it pretty intentionally.

But Rosie at ten years old?

No way.

YouTube is far too sophisticated for her to use purposefully.

Maybe when she’s sixteen, seventeen, or eighteen. Maybe fifteen. I don’t know.

But I’m not going to intentionally introduce it.

If it becomes necessary because of school or something else, then we’ll try it and see how she handles it. If she can use it well, maybe we’ll continue. If she can’t, then we won’t.

I think a lot of this is really about figuring out what your own child can handle.

We don’t give children alcohol or tobacco because they can’t handle them. We don’t give them pornography for the same reason.

These technologies have entered our lives so quickly that we’re all trying to answer entirely new questions.

One of the most important things parents can watch is what happens afterward.

How does your child behave? What’s their mood like? Is it immediately, “One more. One more. One more”?

If that’s what’s happening, then they’re probably not ready for it.

Sarah: Right. It’s not restorative.

This reminds me of a guest I had on the podcast a year or two ago. He was a former video game developer, and the episode was called How to Stop Fighting With Your Kid About Video Games.

Sarah: This reminds me of something another guest said on the podcast, and I think it fits perfectly with what you’re talking about.

He was a former video game developer, and he said something I’ve never forgotten. He said, “If you’re going to let your kids play video games, don’t let them play anything that’s free.”

He said there are lots of amazing games that you actually buy because they’re designed with a real story arc, real challenges, and an ending. As I was reading your book, I kept thinking about that because those paid games are designed to give you an actual reward at the end. You complete levels, you build skills, and then you finish.

He wasn’t talking about buying things inside free games. He meant games that you purchase outright. I remember my husband used to play The Legend of Zelda. It was a game you started and eventually finished.

Michaeleen: I love that. There’s so much I love about it because the business model is completely different.

With free games, the longer you stay on them, the more money the company makes through advertising and in-game purchases. Their entire goal is to keep you there for as long as possible. They’re holding the child inside that loop.

But with purchased games, they actually want you to finish because then they hope you’ll buy another game. It’s almost like movies used to be. They wanted you to enjoy the experience, reach the end, and then come back for the next one.

You’re exactly right—they’re designed to end.

I think that’s really beautiful advice because it highlights how much the business model shapes the experience.

Sarah: That’s what he said. In the free games, the commodity is your child’s attention.

Michaeleen: Exactly.

Whereas with a purchased game, you’re paying for an experience that has a beginning and an end.

We’ve actually done something similar with movies and television. We got rid of all of our subscriptions, and honestly, we’ve saved a lot of money. Now, if we want to watch a movie, we buy it.

We’re much more intentional. We stop and ask ourselves, “Do we really want to watch this? Is it worth it?”

Then, when the movie ends, we’re done.

I think that simple change does so much to keep you out of the wanting cycle we talked about earlier. Paying for something slows the whole process down. It makes you think about your choice, and the design itself is completely different. It’s designed to leave you feeling satisfied—to let you say, “I finished it.”

Sarah: It’s an experience. It’s an adventure. There’s a reward.

Michaeleen: Exactly. I love that idea. I wish I’d put it in the book. It’s really good. Honestly, I didn’t even realize there were that many games designed that way.

Sarah: I’ll send you his contact if you ever want to talk with him.

I could honestly talk to you about this all day.

I’m just trying to think if there’s anything else I really wanted to ask, but I do want to highlight something for anyone who’s still listening.

This isn’t a moral argument about screens or ultra-processed foods being “bad.” You make that very clear throughout the book.

It’s really about bringing more joy and fun back into your life because getting trapped in this cycle of wanting without ever feeling rewarded is making all of us kind of miserable.

Michaeleen: That’s exactly right.

The first thing I hope parents take away is that this isn’t their fault.

This has happened incredibly quickly, and most of us don’t even understand what we’re up against. These products are intentionally designed by multibillion-dollar companies to capture and hold our children’s attention. That’s what we’re competing with, and for a long time we simply haven’t had the right tools.

The second thing is that this isn’t about taking everything away. That’s a fantasy. It’s not going to work.

It’s about figuring out what actually brings joy to you and your family, keeping those things, and letting go of the things that don’t.

We’ve also moved beyond the old idea that kids will somehow fall behind or be left out if they don’t have all these technologies. There’s so much evidence now showing that giving kids a phone or social media doesn’t suddenly make them feel accepted or like they belong.

In fact, it often does the opposite.

So we can let go of that fear.

Instead, we can ask, “What actually works for our family?” Then we can build the skills to get there and help our kids gradually adopt these technologies in healthy ways because they’re going to be part of their lives.

Almost everyone will eventually have a phone. Most kids will eventually use some form of social media, whether that’s YouTube, Instagram, or whatever comes next.

The question isn’t whether they’ll ever use it.

The question is: When are they ready?

And how do we help them use it in a way that still allows them to be productive?

For me, that’s one of the essential parenting skills of the twenty-first century: helping kids set up their environments—their computers, their workspaces, their routines—so they aren’t constantly fighting temptation.

Sarah: You also talk specifically about having kids work where a parent can see them because I think that’s becoming a huge challenge now that so many students are issued Chromebooks at school.

Sarah: You also mention having kids work where a parent can see them, because I think that’s becoming a huge challenge now that so many students are issued Chromebooks at school.

Everyone I’ve talked to—and maybe there are exceptions out there—says you can’t put parental controls on school-issued devices. Kids need YouTube to watch something for school, and suddenly you’ve opened the door to all kinds of temptation.

Every parent I know whose child has a school-issued Chromebook struggles with it.

Michaeleen: Yes, and I think this is an area that’s really in flux.

From what I’m learning, parents are starting to push back—not only on schools issuing Chromebooks in the first place, but also on not being allowed to set them up in ways that remove things like YouTube. I think parents actually have more power than I realized.

Some schools will work with families if parents speak up. You can go to the teacher or the principal and say, “This is what I want for my child’s Chromebook. I don’t want them to have access to YouTube,” or, “I want these restrictions in place.”

Parents have more rights than I think most of us realize.

I’ve talked with parents who are trying to get Chromebooks out of kindergarten through Grade 2 altogether. Others are asking for more limited internet access or different settings during school hours. There’s really a whole spectrum of possibilities.

I honestly think this is going to be one of the defining parenting issues of the next decade—the school-issued Chromebook, the school-issued iPad.

For me, it just makes those screen-free gaps in the day even more important. If your child has spent the day doing schoolwork on a device, then after dinner becomes even more valuable as a screen-free time.

You need a break. I need a break. We all need a break.

Creating what I call sanctuaries becomes increasingly important as more of school moves onto screens. Kids need opportunities to move their bodies, relax their brains, and experience activities that are genuinely restorative.

I also think there are resources available for parents who want more control over that digital space. It does take work, but as parents we sometimes hand over more authority to schools than we actually have to. We have more rights than we often realize.

In fact, a lot of this is being challenged legally. There are lawsuits against school districts because some software has been given to children in ways that violate privacy protections and collect data improperly.

So I think this whole area is changing, and I’m hopeful we’ll eventually reach a place where, even if students are working on computers, they’ll have better protections against unnecessary distractions.

That’s exactly how I work. I turn on an app blocker so I can’t wander around the internet while I’m working. Otherwise, I’d be distracted constantly.

I have a colleague who says she can’t work for more than a couple of minutes before she finds herself checking something online.

Sarah: I struggle with that too.

It’s getting easier the more I practice, but the pull—that feeling of wanting—is incredibly strong.

Michaeleen: It really is. It’s become a habit, and eventually you’re barely even thinking about it.

I remember when I first installed an app blocker. It felt so uncomfortable. I kept thinking, “But I want to check this. I want to check that.”

Then it faded.

It actually faded pretty quickly.

Sarah: Thank you so much—not just for being here, but for writing this book. It’s really remarkable.

Even though I’m past the most active stage of parenting, I keep noticing the ideas from the book working their way into my own life.

I have to tell you, the last couple of nights I’ve made brown rice instead of white rice because of something I read in the book. I love white rice, but I know I need more fiber. Honestly, once you start eating brown rice regularly, you hardly notice the difference.

You’ve gotten me wearing a watch, eating brown rice, and leaving my phone at home when I take the dog for a walk.

Michaeleen: I love that.

It lets your brain relax because you’re not constantly multitasking anymore.

I have my watch on too. Rosie and I actually wear the same watch. To me, it’s become a little symbol of this more digitally minimalist way of thinking.

I was doing exactly the same thing—checking my phone every time I wanted to know the time. Eventually I thought, “Why am I using this little computer just to tell the time?”

Sarah: Exactly.

Well, thank you so much.

Michaeleen: Thank you.

Sarah: Before I let you go, I have one question that I ask every guest. It’ll be interesting because I can compare your answer to what you said the last time you were on.

If you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?

Michaeleen: Which age?

Sarah: Any age. Go back to brand-new-mom Michaeleen. What would you tell yourself?

Michaeleen: I’ll give you two answers.

For the baby stage, I would tell myself, “Michaeleen, just carry her all the time. Put her in the carrier and carry her. Don’t worry so much about putting her down.”

She was so happy whenever I carried her, and that’s how so many cultures do it. The baby is simply on someone’s back or on their front while life goes on. I really wish I’d done more of that because I think it would have made both of our lives much easier.

For the older years, I’d tell myself to stop worrying so much that taking away the screens was going to be hard.

I built it up in my mind as this enormous thing. I thought, “It’s going to be so difficult to take away Netflix at night. It’s going to be so difficult to take away Toca Boca.”

But it wasn’t.

It really wasn’t.

Our lives became so much easier afterward, and I wish I’d been able to see that ahead of time.

Sarah: Well, how could you have known?

What you were seeing was the outward expression of all that wanting—the crying, the begging, the desperation. It would be so easy to mistake that for, “I’m denying my child something that brings them enormous pleasure.”

I think that’s an important distinction for parents.

Just because your child is crying and screaming that they want something doesn’t actually mean that it’s bringing them pleasure or that it’s good for them.

Michaeleen: Exactly.

Someone said something to me that I think made it into the book. A child can desperately want to spend another hour playing a video game while actually getting very little pleasure—or no pleasure—from it.

That’s really where the trick is.

That’s the hijacking.

I also think Lenore’s work is right. Kids really do want the offline world.

They just have to experience it first.

I didn’t fully appreciate this before, but you can’t really want something until you’ve experienced the joy of it yourself. Maybe you can see someone else enjoying it, but to actually build that dopamine pathway, you have to get out there and feel it yourself.

You have to think, “Oh, this is wonderful. I love this.”

Then your brain starts wanting more of that.

Sarah: I was thinking about one family I work with. They have five kids, they run their own business, and they’re incredibly busy.

Their five-year-old son was having constant meltdowns and aggression, so I suggested they start tracking what happened right before those moments.

When they came back, they realized that about 90 percent of the incidents were connected to screens. He was trying to get one of his parents’ phones. He was trying to grab the remote from his sisters. He wanted the TV turned on or wanted it to stay on.

This was actually before I read your book, so I probably could have given them even better advice afterward.

But I suggested they experiment with going screen-free for a while and see whether it changed the aggression.

The next time I talked to them, the dad told me that, out of pure frustration, he’d picked up the television and put it out in the garage. He basically announced, “No more TV for the rest of the summer.”

The following week, the mom started texting me pictures.

“Here’s the girls sleeping in a fort they built on the trampoline.”

“Here’s our five-year-old playing with his trucks.”

Picture after picture.

She said, “I think this is going to be the best summer ever without TV.”

Michaeleen: I love that story.

I really do.

And it’s easier.

It’s easier.

All he did was move the TV into the garage.

That’s amazing.

That’s exactly the advice I’d give myself.

Just do it. Trust your instincts. Do it.

Sarah: Do it.

Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming back on the podcast.

As always, it’s been such a pleasure talking with you, and you’ve written another wonderful book to add to the parenting canon.

Michaeleen: Thank you so much for having me. It was truly a pleasure to come back.

Sarah: Thanks so much.

We’ll put links to everything we talked about in the show notes, along with your website.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

Between end-of-school-year chaos, summer transitions, and the general heaviness of life right now, it can be easy to drift away from the peaceful parenting practices that help us feel grounded and connected with our kids.

In this short bonus episode, Corey and I talk about the free Peaceful Parenting Reset — a free 5-day experience designed to help you get back to basics with simple, manageable tools that can make a real difference in your home. Plus, this time we’re including a special Summer Planning Workshop to help you head into summer feeling intentional and prepared.

It’s free, it starts Monday June 15, and I’d love for you to join us.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interviewed Hayden Ahlbrandt, a certified Synergetic Play Therapist. Hayden shares some really helpful thoughts and strategies on both how we can prevent meltdowns and how best to support our child—and ourselves—once we find ourselves with a meltdown on our hands. We focus on connection, co-regulation, mindfulness, and creating safety.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

And if you love the podcast, FREE ways to help us out:1- Rate and review the podcast in your podcast player app

2- “Like” this post by tapping the heart icon ♥️

3- Share this with a friend. THANK YOU!

We talk about:

00:00 – Sarah introduces Hayden Ahlbrandt, certified Synergetic Play Therapist. Overview of meltdowns, regulation, and co-regulation
05:25 – Viewing behavior through a nervous system lens
10:30 – Understanding Meltdowns Through the “Pop Bottle” Analogy
12:00 – Why some days kids can handle more than others
1:00 – “Regulation Is Connection to Self” - Helping kids discover what naturally regulates them
20:00 – Why Regulation Tools Need to be Practiced Outside Meltdowns
22:00 – Preventing Meltdowns
24:00 – The Three Rs: Regulate, Relate, Reason
30:00 – Mindfulness and Co-Regulation
32:30 – The Parent’s Nervous System
36:00 – Aggression During Meltdowns
38:30 – Making the Environment Feel Safer
42:00 – Parenting Advice Hayden Wishes He’d Known Earlier

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Hayden’s website
Hayden’s IG @lowtideplaytherapist
Synergetic Play Therapy Institute
Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Evelyn & Bobbie bras

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

YOTO: YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can’t go where you don’t want them to go and they aren’t watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HERE

Evelyn & Bobbie bras: If underwires make you want to rip your bra off by noon, Evelyn & Bobbie is for you. These bras are wire-free, ultra-soft, and seriously supportive—designed to hold you comfortably all day without pinching, poking, or constant adjusting. Check them out HERE

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast.

Today’s guest is Hayden Ahlbrandt. Hayden is a certified Synergetic Play Therapist who lights up at any opportunity to teach, educate, and support adults in how they can best support the children in their lives.

He specializes in meltdowns, and that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. Hayden shares some really helpful thoughts and strategies on both how we can prevent meltdowns and how best to support our child—and ourselves—once we find ourselves with a meltdown on our hands.

I think you’re going to find this episode really useful, no matter how old your child is. One thing I really appreciate is that Hayden sees meltdowns through the lens of the nervous system and in terms of regulation, dysregulation, and co-regulation.

I’m definitely going to be thinking about a phrase he shared: “Regulation is connection to self.”

If you like this episode, please share it with a friend. Word of mouth is the best way to get more eyes and ears on the podcast.

If you’re a fan of the podcast, you can help us out not only by sharing it, but by leaving a review and a five-star rating in your podcast player app. While you’re there, don’t forget to follow the show so you don’t miss an episode.

If you’d like to support us even more, you can become a supporter on Substack to help us offset the cost of making the show.

You can also check out our sponsors: Yoto Audio Players for Kids, a screen-free alternative that makes listening, learning, and entertainment easy with no screens, and Evelyn & Bobbie Bras, the most comfortable and flattering bra I’ve ever worn.

Links are in the show notes.

Okay, let’s meet Hayden.

Sarah: Hi, Hayden. Welcome to the podcast.

Hayden: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.

Sarah: Yeah, I’m excited to have you. I found you on Instagram, and I love all the reels that you make. I love your energy and how you show up for parents so they can show up for their kids. So I’m really glad to have you on the podcast.

Hayden: I appreciate that.

Sarah: Tell us about who you are and what you do.

Hayden: Yeah. Well, obviously, my name’s Hayden.

I’m a certified Synergetic Play Therapist, and I have my own play therapy practice. Like you mentioned, my Instagram has become something I’ve had a lot of fun doing. It’s really given me an avenue to work with adults and support them in how we support kids.

So I kind of have a two-pronged approach right now. I work with kids in my play therapy practice, but I also do a lot of speaking, presenting, workshops, and that kind of thing—giving parents the tools from the training I have so they can better support kids.

My specialization has really become focused on big behaviors and meltdowns. I also work with a lot of anxiety.

So that’s the quick elevator speech.

Sarah: Yeah, it makes sense because you have the kids for maybe an hour a week—or whatever your typical amount is—but then they’re off with their parents for all of the rest of the days and hours of the week.

If parents don’t know how to support them during that time, it probably makes your job not work as well, right?

Hayden: Yeah, definitely.

I always explain it as wraparound support. I think we can do so much in our time together and in our work during sessions, but things are just going to move so much quicker when parents are involved.

Ultimately, that’s how I view my work as a play therapist. We’re not trying to make drastic changes or fix things. We’re trying to help the child feel better because, typically, when they’re coming in, it’s because something in their world feels really big, really hard, or really challenging, and that’s coming out as behaviors.

Sarah: Right.

Hayden: I kind of view it that way. We’re trying to help the child feel better, which is going to help the whole family system feel better.

Typically, with the kinds of things I mentioned—if a child is having really big, intense meltdowns that are above and beyond what’s developmentally appropriate—it can be really hard on the entire family system: siblings, parents, whoever it might be.

I talk about it as creating as much wraparound support as possible because it’s going to help the child work through whatever feels clogged for them in that moment.

Sarah: What’s a Synergetic Play Therapist?

Hayden: Yeah. Synergetic Play Therapy is a modality, an approach—a specific type of play therapy.

The way I typically explain it is that we’re really working through the lens of nervous system regulation.

That’s one of the core tenets of Synergetic Play Therapy: viewing the behaviors we’re seeing as symptoms of nervous system activation.

So when we’re talking about anxiety, meltdowns, or big behaviors, we’re viewing those as symptoms that the nervous system is activating.

Sarah: Yeah, that’s really aligned with the work that I do, too, teaching parents about their kids’ big behaviors.

You mentioned before we started recording that your oldest child is six. Were you a play therapist before you had kids?

Hayden: Yes, briefly.

I actually started out in schools. I was working as an elementary school counselor when I finished my graduate program in counseling.

The opportunity to explore Synergetic Play Therapy kind of fell into my lap while I was doing that.

There’s now something called the Synergetic Education Institute, and their whole approach is bringing neuroscience and nervous system understanding into school settings.

We were one of what I would call the pilot programs for that. As they were figuring out what worked, what didn’t work, and how they wanted to implement it, we started bringing these ideas into our school setting to change the school culture and ask, “How do we support the behaviors we’re seeing?”

In my school counseling role, I was given the opportunity to start learning more about this.

As I did, I thought, This is magic. I love doing this.

Sarah: That’s so cool.

Hayden: Talk about fate.

So it was one of those things where I liked working in schools, but doing this in a private practice setting and working one-on-one with a child felt like what I was meant to do.

I just loved it.

I still enjoy the adult piece. I mentioned that earlier. I like supporting educators, and that’s something I bring into my Instagram content sometimes—helping classroom teachers think about how to bring these ideas into the school setting.

Ultimately, though, I found that I really enjoy being in the role of working one-on-one with the child.

That’s what my school opportunity allowed me to do, and it’s how I got to where I am now and what I feel I specialize in.

I was being called in to support behaviors, so I really learned how to implement this one-on-one while supporting a child.

I always say I have the utmost admiration for teachers who are trying to learn this, do this, and implement this with 25 or 30 kids in a classroom.

Sarah: Seriously.

Hayden: That is a whole different beast than sitting one-on-one with a child and co-regulating.

Sarah: It’s so needed, though.

I find, through the clients I work with, that when kids are having trouble at school, most teachers and administrators are not very aware of the nervous system and how that factors into behavior.

So it’s great that there are people out there trying to bring that understanding into schools.

Just as an aside, do you have any resources for parents who are listening and want their school to be more nervous-system informed? Do you have any resources we could share in the show notes?

Hayden: Yeah.

My free resources page has some templates and tools that start creating that understanding.

Honestly, I think my Instagram is a great place to start because what I try to do there is take these big topics and make them really simple. We’re trying to fit them into one-minute videos, so my goal is to give people a little bit of the understanding in a really accessible way.

Another resource is the Synergetic Education Institute.

Sarah: Great.

Hayden: That’s their entire focus: bringing this into districts and schools. I’m always happy to share them as a resource because that’s exactly what they’re doing.

Sarah: Perfect. We’ll share those in the show notes.

Okay, so you’ve mentioned meltdowns a couple of times and that a lot of your work centers around helping parents and kids when meltdowns and big behaviors are an issue. One of the reels I saw when I was preparing for this interview was the one where you were using the pop bottle analogy. And I think some people may have heard about that, but maybe you could explain the pop bottle analogy and how that relates to meltdowns.

Then we’ll talk about what we can do preventively. What I always say to parents is that when you have meltdowns, there’s what you do in the moment, but there’s also everything that was leading up to the moment.

You can be preventative about meltdowns, and sometimes that really helps a lot. Other times, you try, but you still find yourself in that meltdown space.

What I’d like to get from you today is both the preventative piece and the in-the-moment piece.

But back to the pop bottle. Maybe you could explain that analogy and then talk about how it factors into thinking about prevention.

Hayden: Yeah, definitely.

The one you’re referring to, I’ve previously explained to families I work with as almost like a pressure gauge.

Things are building and building, and the pop bottle came to mind because if you’re shaking up a bottle of pop and you open it all at once, it’s going to explode everywhere.

The picture I was trying to create is: can we open it a little bit and close it, then open it a little bit and close it? Can we let a little bit of steam off throughout the course of the day?

Going back to the pressure gauge analogy, how do we let a little bit off so it’s not ready to explode at any given moment?

That’s how I think about the preventative side. How do we bring in little bits of regulation throughout the day so we can let off some of that steam?

I think there are a couple of ideas that help this make sense. One is the concept of the window of tolerance. The window of tolerance is basically how much stress your nervous system can tolerate before you become dysregulated.

It’s that same idea: as the pressure builds, that window gets smaller and smaller.

Sarah: And if I could just jump in, bringing that back to the pop bottle analogy: if you imagine your child as a bottle of pop, some kids can take 25 shakes of the bottle and not have much pressure build up, while other kids might only take one or two shakes before the pressure starts building.

That’s the window of tolerance, right? How many stressors can your nervous system deal with before you move outside that window of tolerance?

Hayden: Exactly. And the thing I always add when I’m talking to people about this is that our window of tolerance is not static. Some days I might be able to handle 20 shakes. Other days it might be one or two. It’s going to depend on things like whether I’m hungry. We’ve all heard the term hangry, right? You’re quicker to frustration if your body is hungry. Or tired. Having little kids, right? The nights I sleep less—

Sarah: Yeah.

Hayden: —I’m just easier to frustrate.

Sarah: Totally.

Hayden: So it’s this idea that it’s not static. It’s not like your child operates at one fixed level.

They may have a general baseline, but there are things that will widen or narrow that window. Maybe I did something today that I’m really proud of, and that widens my window. I can take on a little bit more because I’m feeling good about myself.

Or maybe I skipped breakfast and I’m a little hangry, so I’m quicker to frustration. It’s both-and.

The other piece I was going to tie in here is the way I’ve come to think about regulation, which really comes from my training in Synergetic Play Therapy. Lisa Dion, who created this modality, explains regulation as connection to self.

The way I like to explain that is this: In adult language, we’ve all heard people say, “I was so mad I blacked out,” or, “I was so mad I was seeing red.”

The idea is that the emotion overwhelmed you and you kind of disconnected from yourself.

When we think about regulation, it’s not just take a deep breath. Sometimes that might be what I need in the moment, but sometimes it isn’t what helps me come back to myself when things feel really big or overwhelming.

One of the things I like to do when I’m working with families is figure out how their child naturally regulates already. Do they like proprioceptive input? Do they like deep pressure? Do they like to jump and crash into things?

Sarah: Can you explain proprioceptive input?

Hayden: Yeah. Really, it’s our sensory system’s way of figuring out where our body is in space. The examples I just mentioned are ways kids get proprioceptive input. That deep pressure gives the sensation of, My body is right here. Jumping and crashing into things does the same thing.

A lot of times, parents describe their kids as being like a bull in a china shop. They’re bumping into things and seem to have a hard time figuring out where their body is in space. Whenever I talk about this, I always say that my understanding of it really comes more from the occupational therapy world. I know enough to talk about it, but it’s not my primary area of expertise.

What I focus on is asking: if we see that’s the way our child regulates, how do we intentionally bring more of it in? For adults, when I think about regulating myself, sometimes I feel like I need to give myself a little massage, or rub my head, or apply some pressure. We all do that thing where we go, ugh, or rub our hands against our cheeks when we’re overwhelmed.

That’s proprioceptive input. Sometimes that kind of input is really regulating.

Other examples might be movement or heavy work—pushing and pulling activities. If we see our kids doing some of these things instinctively or intuitively, how do we meet that and bring it into those moments so it becomes a regulatory tool? All of that comes back to the idea that if we can give children little bits of regulation throughout the course of the day, it’s not a magic fix, but it lets a little steam out of the pop bottle.

The goal is to create more capacity and help widen that window of tolerance so they aren’t right on the edge of exploding all the time. I always like to add that caveat: it’s not the magic fix.

Doing these things doesn’t mean there will never be another meltdown. What I really try to teach adults is: how do we help children have these experiences and learn how to do these things? Because what we’re really doing is laying the groundwork for them to eventually be able to do these things on their own.

Above all else, I don’t want parents to think they’re failing if their child is still having meltdowns. It doesn’t mean it’s not working. We’re helping them discover what helps them in those moments so they build templates they can keep returning to over and over again.

Sarah: What are some other things that parents might notice their kids do that, after listening to this conversation, they might think, Ah, that’s my child instinctively knowing what regulates them?

I’m thinking of my nine-year-old niece. She finds jumping very regulating, so she uses a trampoline and jump rope. My sister eventually realized, “Oh, she seems a lot calmer after she’s been doing those things.”

What are some other things parents might notice that are instinctively regulating?

Hayden: Going back to the idea that regulation is connection to self, I’ve come to talk about it as something that can almost be anything.

What do you notice your child doing that seems to genuinely help them? The examples you mentioned are great ones. Jumping. Spinning. Those are common.

As you were talking, I was thinking back to a training I did with Lisa Dion.

She talked about these umbrella categories—not necessarily saying they are regulation, but that they can help us generate ideas. One category was stillness. Like you mentioned: lying down, being quiet, reading a book.

Another category was movement, which is the opposite end of the spectrum—jumping, spinning, stomping. Then there’s the proprioceptive input we talked about before: deep pressure, giving yourself a massage.

And the last one was breath. Breathwork can absolutely be a fantastic tool.

But I think we often get sucked into this idea that here’s a regulation strategy—use it and it’ll help.

Sarah: Right.

Hayden: But when we think about our own experience, I think we often approach it from the mindset of, Here’s a strategy to give my kid, and they’ll use it and feel better. I think about my own experience. Through this work, I’ve realized how anxious I was as a kid, so working on my anxiety has been a long process for me. And when I’m feeling anxious, doing a breathing exercise for 10 seconds doesn’t make the anxiety disappear. It might not be what I need in that moment. I might need to get up and burn some energy. I might need to go for a run.

The real question is: what do I need in that moment to help move that energy and help me come back to myself?

Sarah: Right. And as you point out, if regulation is connection to self, it’s different for everybody. I think you’re right that the thing parents hear most often is, “Just take a deep breath.” There are all these strategies—pretend you’re blowing on hot chocolate and all of that. Maybe that works for some kids, but for other kids it won’t help at all.

Hayden: Definitely. And to build on that, before I learned a lot of this—and what I hear from parents all the time—is: “My kid won’t do any of these strategies.”

Even if we have a toolbox and say, “Here’s 20 ideas, let’s figure out which one works,” their child won’t do any of them in the moment. Because they’re dysregulated.

Absolutely. You’re right that Part 3 drifted back into a transcript layout with too many short paragraphs.

Here’s the same section in the publishing-ready style you’ve asked for: bold speaker names, no content removed, no summarizing, but with natural paragraphs and cleaner flow.

Sarah: Yeah.

Hayden: And I think we can get into all the science-y reasons why that makes sense, but the bigger picture is this: what I try to do on my Instagram is ask, How can we make this fun and playful? How can we make it something kids actually want to do?

You mentioned things like blowing on hot chocolate. One of the things I really try to do is help people build a toolbox of ways to make regulation fun and playful. Thinking about our own adult experience, if I’m frustrated and my partner comes in and tells me, “Calm down,” or, “Take a deep breath,” my response is probably going to be, “Absolutely not.” It just makes me more frustrated.

So how do we make it a fun and playful invitation rather than saying, “I’m telling you to do this because I’m noticing you’re upset”?

Some of those breathing activities can become games. One of the things I talk about is practicing these things in regulated moments so that when your child is dysregulated and you bring them in, they think, Oh, I know what’s happening. We play this all the time.

Again, none of this means it’s going to work every single time, but it gives us—

Sarah: I just want to highlight what you said because I think it’s really important. If you’re only using these strategies when your child is dysregulated, they’re going to develop a negative association with them. Partly, I think they’ll feel manipulated. They’ll think, Oh, my parent is just trying to get me to calm down.

And they’ll be resistant because they associate those strategies with negative feelings and experiences. So I love that you’re saying to do these regulating things at other times too and make them positive experiences that you can draw on later rather than just tools you pull out to end a meltdown.

Hayden: Definitely.

And just to tie in some of the science behind it, when we think about this from a nervous system lens, dysregulation is our body sounding the alarm bells and saying, There’s something happening here that requires activation.

When we’re talking about meltdowns, that’s typically the nervous system escalating into a fight-or-flight response. If we think about fight-or-flight biologically, its primary goal is to keep us alive. That’s why we move into that state.

So if we’re trying to get our child to do anything in that moment, it makes sense that we’d get an immediate response of, I’m not trusting anything right now because my goal is survival.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Hayden: When we practice these things during regulated moments—when they’re not in those big emotional states—it becomes familiar. It’s not, I’ve never tried that before. I don’t know if it’ll work. It’s, Oh, we do that all the time. That’s fun. That’s familiar. I know that.

Again, it doesn’t mean they’re necessarily going to jump right into it, but it gives us a much better chance than saying, “Hey, here’s this thing we’ve never done before. I know your body is biologically trying to stay alive right now, but trust me and try it.”

Because the biological response would be, “Absolutely not.”

Sarah: Right. That makes sense.

We’ve drifted a little into what to do in the moment of a meltdown, which is great, but is there anything else you wanted to add about prevention? You mentioned making sure resources are high—things like hunger, tiredness, and those sorts of factors. You talked about opening the pressure valve throughout the day with regulating activities.

Is there anything else you’ve noticed that helps when a child is having a lot of meltdowns?

Hayden: Yeah. I think those are some of the biggest things.

My whole approach is rooted in connection as well. A lot of times, parents tell me that sometimes they can catch it—they can see the signs that a meltdown is coming—and other times it feels like things go from zero to 100.

If we’re able to notice those signs that things are building, that our child seems more on edge or more hypervigilant, that becomes a great time to bring in some of these strategies. But tying it back to what we’ve already talked about, I want to do that from a place of connection.

It’s, Hey, I’m right here with you. Let’s do this together.

Not, Here’s a strategy. Go do it by yourself.

Because connection itself is incredibly regulating.

Sarah: So the whole co-regulation piece.

Hayden: Exactly. It’s kind of a both-and situation. We can use connection before the meltdown, and we can use it as we’re moving into one.

I wanted to bring that in because connection itself can be a regulatory tool. And it also ties into your next question.

Sarah: What about empathy? You were talking a lot about connection, and to me they go hand in hand. Do you find yourself talking about empathy very much with parents?

Hayden: Yes. Typically, we talk about it more in the moment, although it fits into both areas.

One of the reasons we focus on it during the moment is because I teach parents about Bruce Perry’s Three Rs: Regulate, Relate, Reason.

I really like this framework because it helps us understand where a child is in their brain and how we should meet them there.

If they’re operating from their brainstem—the lowest, survival-oriented part of the brain—we meet them with regulation.

Sarah: That’s the fight-or-flight part.

Hayden: Typically, yes.

Then the next level up is the limbic system, which is our emotional control center.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Hayden: There we meet them through relating, or what parents often hear called validation.

Then, when they’re operating from the cortex—the highest part of the brain—we can reason with them.

The reason I’m bringing this up is that empathy really lives in that relating stage. That’s where we’re saying, I’m in this with you. This feels frustrating. This feels overwhelming. This feels scary.

That’s where empathy naturally fits.

So if I’m noticing my child starting to become emotional and I sense that we’re moving toward a bigger meltdown, that’s a great opportunity to step into that relating and validating stage and connect empathetically.

Sarah: Okay, nice. So reason is when they’re not really losing it yet? That’s when we might explain why they can’t climb the bookshelf or something like that?

Hayden: Right. Reasoning is when they’re logical and rational.

Sarah: Thinking clearly.

Hayden: Exactly.

That’s when logical conversations make sense.

One question I get a lot is, “How do I know where my child is?” And the truth is, you probably don’t always know. It’s a bit of feeling out the situation.

You might notice that you’re trying to be logical and rational, but it’s not landing. That’s your clue.

Sarah: Right.

Hayden: At that point, we drop down a level and try validating or relating. Or maybe we’re supporting a big meltdown and we’re regulating, and then we try saying, I get it. This feels really frustrating, and it only gets bigger.

Okay, that didn’t land. Let’s drop back down and spend more time regulating.

Sarah: Right.

Hayden: It’s an ebb and flow. We’re trying things and seeing what works.

Sarah: I love that framework. It’s really helpful to think about what to do when something isn’t landing.

I saw you talking about that on Instagram, and it reminded me of Larry Cohen’s work. In The Opposite of Worry, he says that if reassurance doesn’t work within 20 seconds, it’s not going to work. When a child is anxious, they’re not operating from the reasoning part of their brain.

And I think the same thing probably applies here. If your child is moving into a meltdown and your explanation doesn’t work within 20 seconds, it’s probably not going to work.

Hayden: Definitely. You can talk until you’re blue in the face, but if it’s not landing, it’s not suddenly going to start landing.

And it gives us the opposite lesson too. When we’re supporting a meltdown, we so often want to fix it. We want to move right into being logical and rational. Or sometimes we jump to consequences. We’re giving consequences in the middle of the meltdown.

None of that is going to land.

Working in schools, I saw this all the time. “You’ll have to finish your homework at home,” or taking away recess. The child doesn’t care because they’re not operating from the part of the brain that cares about those things in that moment.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Hayden: All of those conversations—making amends, talking about what happened, figuring out solutions—can absolutely happen. But they need to happen when the brain is ready for them.

Sarah: Right. Not during the meltdown.

Hayden: Exactly.

Sarah: What else do you want parents to know about those meltdown moments?

Hayden: My approach is very co-regulatory. The Three Rs are a great foundation because they help us understand that first step of regulation, then relating, then reasoning.

There are lots of things we can do within that framework.

One thing I hear from parents all the time is, “So am I just supposed to sit here with my child for an hour while they melt down? I can only keep my cool for so long.”

And my response is: I totally get that. That’s valid.

Co-regulation doesn’t mean sitting there forever doing nothing. Yes, a big part of our goal is allowing them to have their emotional experience rather than shutting it down. But another big part of our goal is teaching them how to regulate when things feel overwhelming.

So I like to bring in little invitations. They’re probably not going to do exactly what I tell them to do, but I can offer invitations back to themselves.

One of my favorite ways to do that is mindfulness.

And when I say mindfulness, I don’t necessarily mean trying to get my child to do something. Instead, I’m having a mindful experience myself and offering it as a gentle invitation.

For example, if we’re sitting together and I’m regulating myself, I might say, “Oh, there’s a squirrel in the tree outside.”

It’s just an observation. I’m not telling them they have to look.

But as they start moving up through the brain and through that Three Rs framework, sometimes they’ll suddenly say, “Oh, I want to see the squirrel.”

Or I might notice, “The air from the fan feels cool on my face.”

It’s just an observation. I’m not directing them. I’m simply staying present and offering little invitations back into the present moment.

Sometimes they don’t care. Sometimes it even escalates them. But I’m making those observations for myself first.

As I’m keeping myself regulated, I’m giving them opportunities to join me in the present moment.

Going back to regulation as connection to self, they’re disconnected from themselves in those moments. They’re overwhelmed by emotion.

So the goal of mindfulness is to gently invite them back into the present moment with me. If you’re in the present moment, you’re here. You’re noticing what’s around you.

That’s why I like to bring mindfulness into these conversations. Because no, you don’t have to sit there doing nothing while waiting for it to end. There are things we can do to help bring our children back to the present moment.

First, by keeping ourselves regulated. If I’m staying mindful and present, it keeps me from losing myself.

Second, it teaches them what it looks like to come back when things feel overwhelming.

Sarah: That makes a lot of sense.

What do you find gets in the way of parents being able to do that? Are there common stories they’re telling themselves? Fears they have?

In my work, I hear things like, If they’re like this at five, what are they going to be like at fifteen? Or, Nobody else’s kid acts like this.

Things like that.

Hayden: Absolutely.

My answer to both of those is usually the same: our own dysregulation.

I talk about this from the theoretical soapbox of Here’s the ideal model. But I tell every family I work with: this is the water I swim in every day, and I still don’t get it right every time.

I’m a human being. I have my own activation.

When I hear examples like the ones you mentioned, those are usually signs of dysregulation. If my mind is spiraling into the future, that’s a clue that I’m no longer present. I’m worried about something else.

So none of this is to say that staying regulated is easy. It’s completely natural to become dysregulated when we’re around dysregulation.

At the same time, the more we practice it, the easier it becomes. It’s like yoga. The more we practice, the more accessible it gets.

I think one of the biggest challenges is the guilt and shame parents feel. They think, But I get dysregulated. And my response is: that’s okay.

When we’re supporting a meltdown, it might look like staying regulated the whole time. But more often, it looks like a dance. I regulate. I notice I’m getting dysregulated. I come back to myself. Then I regulate again.

That cycle happens throughout the experience. It doesn’t mean you have to stay perfectly regulated from beginning to end. And honestly, there’s benefit in both versions. If I stay regulated, I’m creating a calm space. But if I become dysregulated and then regulate myself again, I’m also modeling something really powerful.

I’m showing my child:

“I disconnected, and now I’m back.”

We so often think we have to teach children by telling them what to do. But there is tremendous power in modeling it. Simply showing them what regulation looks like when things feel really big and overwhelming is teaching them.

Here’s Part 4 cleaned up in the same publishing-ready style as the revised Part 3: all content preserved, no summarizing, no omissions, bold speaker names, and natural paragraphs rather than one-line transcript formatting.

Sarah: Options.

Hayden: It might not be that they turn around and do these things immediately, but we are showing them, “Look, I’m right here with you. I get overwhelmed. I get dysregulated.”

And one last thought within that: so often I hear this from the kids I work with—“Nobody else is like this. I’m the only one who feels this way. I’m the only one who gets so overwhelmed by my anger.”

Sarah: Aw.

Hayden: So I think there’s so much normalization in naming our own experience. Maybe it’s naming our own experience, but maybe it’s even just showing them: “Ah, I got really frustrated, and now I’m coming back and regulating myself. I’m making repair. I’m taking accountability for it.”

All of those pieces matter. There’s power in all of them, I think, and that’s something I hope I get across to the families I work with. I think there’s often this guilt or shame of, “I’m not doing a good job at this.”

And it’s like, there’s value in all of these things when you can bring some intentionality to them.

Sarah: I love that.

I’m kind of springing this on you, and I don’t know if I’ve seen you talk about this specifically in your reels, but do you have any specific strategies for aggression that comes with a meltdown?

Hayden: Yeah.

I think the thing that’s really tricky with aggression is that, especially when we’re talking on social media, I’m not there. I don’t know your kid. So it’s really hard for me to tell you exactly how to support them in the moment.

I always start with a very generic statement: we have to create safety first.

I can’t tell you exactly what that’s going to look like because every situation is different. But you have to make sure you’re safe, your child is safe, their siblings are safe, their friends are safe—whoever is around needs to be safe.

We have to create physical safety first and foremost.

Then, from there, I think it’s helpful to understand that the fight-or-flight response is what’s happening. It would make sense that we’ve reached a level where things have gotten so big that the child is now fighting. That’s the response that’s happening.

In that moment, we’re really trying to communicate, “This isn’t warranted right now. You don’t need to be in a fight response.”

The ways we do that include the co-regulation we’ve already talked about, but also being very aware of how we’re presenting ourselves.

How are we appearing? Are we cornering them? Are we standing high above them? Can we get down to their level?

Those subtle things can send the message: “Everything is activated. The alarm bells are going off. There’s this thing hovering over me. I’m cornered in my room, so I have to fight my way out.”

Can we bring just a little bit of awareness to those dynamics, as best we’re able, once we’ve created safety?

Some of those pieces can be really difficult because we’re trying to keep our kids safe. We may need to be in their personal space to prevent them from hurting themselves.

But once we get to a place where they’re no longer actively hurting themselves, can we begin sending signals that—

Sarah: That they’re safe and that you’re not a threat.

Hayden: Exactly.

And it’s not even necessarily that you are the threat. It’s more about asking, What can we do to help simmer things down a little bit?

One of the other things that comes to mind is talking less and keeping things really simple.

If they’re in that level of activation, it’s not the time to reason. It’s probably not the time to talk about how frustrating the situation is for them.

Sarah: Right.

Hayden: It might simply be:

“I’m right here.”

Sarah: Yeah.

Hayden: “I’m right here.”

Just a steady presence. Keeping it calm, quiet, and simple.

“You are safe.”

Really short, simple phrases.

I think another idea that comes to mind is thinking about the activation in the body. When we’re talking about nervous system activation and fight or flight, things are escalating. Things are speeding up. That energy is getting big.

It makes sense that it’s coming out through the extremities—through hitting, kicking, biting, screaming. The energy is trying to get out of the body.

So if our child is hitting, can we find a way for them to move that energy through their hands?

Maybe I have a pillow and I’m letting them push against it.

Again, this has to be balanced with safety. I can’t tell every parent, “This is what you should do every time.” But with some children—especially smaller children—if their arms are flying around, I might be able to create a situation where they can push against a pillow.

If they’re kicking and their legs are flailing, can we do something similar where their feet are pushing against something?

We’re giving some proprioceptive input while simultaneously allowing the energy to move through the part of the body that’s already showing us where that energy wants to go.

Sarah: That makes sense.

When you were talking about creating safety through your physical presence when someone’s having a meltdown, I was reminded of something.

It’s funny—I don’t know if you find this in your work—but sometimes I use an analogy or example for years and then kind of forget about it.

I was reminded that I used to talk to parents about pretending they’d just come across a wild dog that was acting aggressively. I’d ask them, “What would you do to get past this wild dog?”

They’re always saying things like, “Well, I’d talk softly. I’d get lower. I’d...”

Instinctively, we all seem to have a sense of how to demonstrate to another creature that we’re not a threat.

And then I’d say, “Okay. Do that with your kid. Do that with your kid.”

What you were saying reminded me of that.

Hayden: Absolutely.

I think that visual of a cornered animal is a really powerful one because it makes sense.

As you were talking, I was thinking about a book by Dr. Stuart Brown about play. One of the things he talked about was how animals have this moment of uncertainty when they encounter each other.

It’s almost like they’re asking, “Are you a threat or not?”

If two dogs are approaching each other, there’s this moment where they’re feeling each other out. We don’t know which direction it’s going to go until they determine things are okay. Then their tails start wagging, and they begin jumping around and playing.

But first there’s that period of interaction where they’re assessing the situation.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Hayden: That’s the idea we’re talking about here.

One of the things I discuss is using playfulness as a strategy to support regulation—even sometimes during meltdowns. This is a little different from the aggression question, but it connects.

If I come in trying to be playful when a child’s brain is trying to figure out what’s happening, they may think, “Wait, what is going on? I don’t understand this.”

It can almost feel like an uncertain threat.

Sarah: Or, “Are they making fun of me?”

Hayden: Exactly.

And so it’s the same principle we’ve been talking about throughout this conversation.

We’re trying to lay a foundation. When I talk about co-regulation, we’re really trying to co-regulate the environment.

It’s not necessarily about getting our child to do something. It’s about decreasing the intensity of the environment.

Whether we’re talking about aggression or anything else, can we be intentional about helping the environment feel a little less intense?

Can we help our child feel safe enough to move out of that fight-or-flight state?

Sarah: Fantastic. This has been so helpful, Hayden.

Before I let you go, there’s one question I ask all my guests. If you could go back in time—and for you it’s not that far back because your kids are still little—and tell your younger parent self something, what advice would you give yourself?

Hayden: I think—and this may be a controversial one—but I would tell myself to take myself less seriously.

There are so many stressors. There are so many things we think we have to do. We have to be on time. We have to present ourselves a certain way. We have to manage all these responsibilities.

Just have some fun.

Take yourself a little less seriously and bring in more silliness, fun, and playfulness.

That’s something I really try to communicate now. It’s why I bring playful strategies into my work.

When I think about the beginning of parenthood and how overwhelming it was—having little kids, trying to balance everything, coming out of COVID when everything felt weird—I wish I had remembered to enjoy it more.

And that’s not to say it’s always fun, enjoyable, or easy.

But it also doesn’t need to feel stressful all the time.

Sarah: I got you.

And if that’s controversial, it shouldn’t be.

It reminds me of when I worked in early childhood education before I had kids. I used to go home and say to my husband, “Oh my God, parents are crazy.”

I shouldn’t use ableist language, but I didn’t know another way to describe it at the time. I couldn’t understand how parents could get so upset about things.

Then I became a parent and thought, “Oh my gosh, I totally get it.”

But it’s that reminder that things aren’t all-or-nothing.

When I look back now—and I’m in a very different stage of parenting—I think about things that felt like a huge deal when my kids were little. Things I worried about endlessly.

And now I think, “I wish I hadn’t taken that so seriously.”

I wish I could have remembered that they were all eventually going to sleep through the night.

Hayden: Mm-hmm.

My partner has brought in this language that I really love:

“You are more important than whatever.”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Hayden: So, “You are more important than us being on time to this event.”

Or, “You are more important than the glass of milk that got knocked over.”

Sarah: That’s beautiful.

Hayden: It’s just a reframe.

Yes, that thing happened. But you are more important than that thing.

Sarah: That’s beautiful. I love that.

Hayden: Yeah.

Sarah: We’ll put links in the show notes, but if you want to give a shout-out to your Instagram account, it sounds like that’s probably the best place for people to learn more about you and what you do.

Hayden: Yeah, I think that’s a great place to start because it gives people a little more of what I do.

My Instagram is Low Tide Play Therapist, and that’s probably the best landing spot.

Then the more business-focused side is lowtidecoaching.com.

Sarah: Great.

What’s the story behind Low Tide?

Hayden: It’s actually how I named my play therapy practice.

At the time, we were living in Wilmington, North Carolina. We only had one child, and I was wrestling with what I wanted to call the practice.

Our child was very young, and suddenly the ocean felt a little intimidating. That was a new experience for me because it hadn’t felt that way before.

One day we went to the beach during low tide. There were little tide pools everywhere, and it felt very safe and non-threatening.

And ultimately, I think that’s what play is.

It’s a space where we can explore things that feel big, challenging, or overwhelming in an environment where there aren’t huge stakes attached to them.

As I watched my child playing in those tide pools—with no giant waves, no threat—I thought:

“That’s it. That’s the name.”

Low Tide Play Therapy.

Sarah: I’m glad I asked because that’s a great story.

Hayden: Yeah.

Sarah: Well, thank you so much.

Hayden: Thank you. I appreciate it.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, my guest is Dr. Justin Coulson, an Australian parenting expert and father of 6 who has his PhD in psychology and is the author of 10 books on parenting and the co-host of the Happy Families podcast with his wife, Kylie. We discuss the psychology behind peaceful parenting, including how self-determination theory explains kids’ challenging behavior. Dr. Justin also shared his three E’s of discipline.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

And if you love the podcast, FREE ways to help us out:1- Rate and review the podcast in your podcast player app

2- “Like” this post by tapping the heart icon ♥️

3- Share this with a friend. THANK YOU!

We talk about:

1:45 – Introduction to Dr. Justin Coulson and his personal parenting turning point

How struggles with anger and discipline led him to rethink everything and study psychology.

08:20 – Learning to regulate ourselves, practicing repair, and growing over time.
15:50 – Why peaceful parenting starts with the parent’s self-awareness and regulation.
19:50 – Understanding behavior through compassion and curiosity.
20:50 – The HALTS framework

How hunger, anger, loneliness, tiredness, and stress impact children’s behavior.

23:00 – Self-determination theory and parenting
33:00 – The 3 E’s of Effective Discipline
41:50 – How to use the 3 E’s in everyday parenting moments.

Real-life examples: screens, sibling conflict & collaboration

49:00 – Building trust and the “goodwill bank” with kids

Why collaborative parenting pays off when tough limits are needed.

53:30 – Advice to his younger parenting self: “soft eyes”

A powerful reflection on kindness, connection, and showing up with compassion.

56:30 – Where to find Dr. Justin Coulson

His podcast, books, and upcoming work on boys and healthy masculinity.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Dr. Justin’s website and podcast
Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Evelyn & Bobbie bras

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the summer for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Sarah: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Dr. Justin Coulson. He’s an Australian parenting expert with a PhD in psychology, the author of 10 books on parenting, the co-host of the Happy Families podcast with his wife, Kylie, the father of six children, and, last but not least, grandfather of one.

We discuss the psychology behind peaceful parenting, including how self-determination theory explains kids’ challenging behavior. Dr. Justin also shared his three E’s of discipline, which I just loved.

If you’d like to support us even more, you can become a supporter on Substack to help us offset the cost of making the show. We’ll put a link in the show notes.

Let’s meet Dr. Justin. I hope you enjoy this conversation and get as much out of his insights as I did.

Sarah: Hello, Dr. Justin, and welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Justin: Sarah, I’m so glad to be with you. Thanks for having me on.

Sarah: Yeah, and it’s morning for you, evening for me—nice—and I’m just glad that we could make this time to talk to each other. I really appreciate it. Thank you. So, could you just tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Dr. Justin: Sure. I grew up on the east coast of Australia, about an hour north of Sydney. Geographically, that kind of locates where I was. I was the teenage boy that every parent hopes they will not have. I don’t think I was a particularly bad kid, but I certainly wasn’t a good kid.

My parents were spending a small fortune—I’m a 1975 baby, I turned 50 last year—but this was in the late ’80s and early ’90s. My parents were spending so much money to send me to a private school. Because we were on the coast—a very quintessentially Australian thing—I was wagging school.

Do you say “wagging school” in Canada? Is that a term Canadians use?

Sarah: No, but I think we get the context. I think it means not going to school.

Dr. Justin: Yeah, I was truant. They thought I was there, but I wasn’t.

Sarah: We say skipping.

Dr. Justin: I was skipping school. Okay, yeah. We call it a school wag.

So I would go to school in the morning and get my name marked off in roll call. Then I would sneak out of the school. Across the road from the school, there were bushes—kind of a forest, or whatever you might call it in Canada and America. I would get changed out of my tie, long pants, and black school shoes, throw on some board shorts and a T-shirt.

My surfboard was stashed in the bush, and I’d grab it from the hiding place. Then I’d jump on a bus, go to the beach, and surf all day. Afterward, I’d get a bus back to school in the afternoon, change back into my uniform, and race into the school just in time to get my name marked off, looking like I’d been at school all day.

This was in the days before schools communicated with parents via email and text, because none of that existed. I was able to get away with it.

So I finished high school. I scored in the bottom 15%—

Sarah: Goodness.

Dr. Justin: Not just my class, but of the entire state of New South Wales. My parents were devastated.

I didn’t care. I wanted to have a media career. I wanted to be a radio announcer. So I got into radio. If you’ve ever listened to the radio—and no offense to radio people—you know you don’t have to do well at school to be good at radio. You just have to be able to sit on the microphone and say things that make sense.

I knew I could do that, so school didn’t matter to me. I didn’t care about it. That’s what I did.

But this is where it intersects with parenting.

About 10 years into my radio career, my wife and I were having some challenges, particularly around my parenting. We had a threenager and a newborn baby.

That three-year-old—I had always held the opinion that my children would do as they were told, and if they didn’t, I would make sure they understood that I was the father and that their job was to do as I said.

So I was very punitive. I basically made all of the parenting mistakes you can imagine when I would get angry, frustrated, and ill-tempered. It’s not that I was a bad father—I spent a lot of high-quality time loving my kids—but I was also really short-fused and highly aggressive.

Frankly, I went from threatening to hitting really fast. You call it spanking; we would call it smacking. I was very, very quick to smack or spank my three-year-old, and it wasn’t working.

After one particularly bad incident where things escalated, I really did lose control. I didn’t just spank her once. There were multiple spankings. This was like a 10-minute escalation session where it just got worse and worse and worse.

My wife was out at the time. When she came home, I said to Kylie, “I’m a bad father. I’m not doing this well. I’m making a lot of mistakes, and here’s what happened while you were out.”

Full confession: Kylie has always been this wonderfully supportive wife—very kind, gentle, compassionate, soft-spoken, thoughtful, considerate, empathic—all of those beautiful attributes that I prize and treasure in my good wife.

She was none of those things that day.

She had fire in her eyes and said, “You are not living up to the father that I hoped you would be, and you’re also not living up to the husband I need you to be.”

And it took me back, because I was already feeling downcast. I felt like I was failing anyway, and she just—it was like she picked up a great big lump of wood and whacked me over the head with it and said, “No.”

Of course, she didn’t actually do that, but that’s how it felt. It felt physical. Visceral. Like, Ow. This is serious.

I left my radio career shortly thereafter.

I was working at one of the biggest radio stations in Australia at the time, and I gave up all the backstage passes with global superstars and hanging out with record company executives at the best restaurants, eating their food so they could bribe me to play their music on the radio station. I went back to school.

I became a full-time student. I worked part-time at three different jobs while studying full-time. I’d sleep under the desk at university so I could do the study and the work—

Sarah: No surfing this time?

Dr. Justin: No surfing this time, no. I was just so committed to it.

After eight and a half years of full-time study, I graduated with a doctorate. I had to do a couple of other qualifications first, including a psychological science degree. I graduated with a doctorate in psychology and became a university lecturer.

Along the way, Sarah, we went from having our two kids at that point to having our third child in my first year of study, our fourth child in my fifth year of study, and our fifth child while I was doing my doctorate. Shortly after I left the university setting, stopped lecturing, and started writing books and giving talks, we had our sixth child.

So we’re the parents—

Sarah: Amazing.

Dr. Justin: —of six daughters. Today, they range in age from 12—the youngest—to the oldest, who is in her mid-to-late 20s. She and her husband have a baby now. They’ve been married for a few years.

Sarah: Wow. You’re a grandpa.

Dr. Justin: A grand—I’m a grandpa. We have a two-and-a-half-year-old grandbaby, four adult children, one in her teens, and a 12-year-old.

So that’s kind of my very short version of the journey.

Along the way, I’ve written a bunch of books. We’ve got a TV show in Australia called Parental Guidance. We’ve had three seasons of that show on primetime TV. I’ve got a website and all the things that you’d expect—a podcast and so on.

Sarah: What did you do when you had that aha moment—that realization that you weren’t being the kind of dad you wanted to be, and your wife also agreed that you weren’t being the kind of dad she wanted you to be? What did you change?

Because you just mentioned that you spent eight and a half years going back to school. I imagine that you made some changes before you had six kids. So what did you do right away, maybe for anyone listening who can relate to those feelings of rage and feeling triggered by your child?

Dr. Justin: Sarah, the first thing I’d say is that there was no linear change, and there were no immediate changes, because I didn’t know what to do.

I was unskilled. I was uneducated. I didn’t know anything about psychology, and I clearly didn’t know anything about parenting.

But I found a mentor. I have a faith background, and there was a writer who wrote eloquently and compassionately. I just felt like he understood me, and he became a mentor to me.

I also discovered a guy called Alfie Kohn. You might be familiar with Alfie Kohn.

Sarah: Oh, Alfie Kohn was the first thing I ever read about parenting—

Dr. Justin: Oh, great.

Sarah: —before I even had kids. And he was on the podcast last year, which felt like a full-circle moment between how influential—

I told him on the podcast, “You have probably had the biggest influence on me—not only in my parenting, but in my life’s direction—of any single person out there.”

So, sorry, fan-girl moment. I’m right there with you with Alfie Kohn.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. I’ve gotten to know Alfie over the years as my academic career advanced and I began to understand where he took his research from.

I read his book Punished by Rewards—I think it was a 1993—

Sarah: That was my first one too.

Dr. Justin: Yeah, it’s a 1993 publication or something.

Sarah, it was just so influential.

What happened was, I was doing my university degree and learning things, and honestly, I’d be sitting there thinking, Hang on, the things they’re teaching me in these university courses seem to clash with what Alfie Kohn taught me in Punished by Rewards.

So I spent a lot of time in the notes section at the back—you know, all the references nobody ever reads?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: As I went through them, I discovered researchers named Edward Deci and Richard Ryan from the University of Rochester in upstate New York.

They had developed a theory known as self-determination theory.

A large portion of Alfie Kohn’s work is based on self-determination theory.

So I really dug deep into that. I still love Alfie, but I moved very much into the academic side because I became a university lecturer and really got into the nitty-gritty of understanding the deepest depths of what self-determination theory is all about. That has become the foundation of the work that I do.

And to your question: nothing is linear when you are trying to make improvements.

Whether you’re trying to change your diet, exercise, get your finances in order, or improve your relationships, you have insights. You have moments where you think, Oh my goodness, this is what I need to do. I need to show up with warmth on my face and soft eyes.

And then three hours later, one of your children does something, and you forget what soft eyes look and feel like. You look at them with hard eyes, frustration in your voice, and short, clipped sentences.

Then half an hour later, you think, Oh, self-awareness. I missed that.

So it’s this gradual process: two steps forward, one step back. Three steps forward, one step back. Four steps forward, three steps back. Eight steps forward, no steps back.

Over the years, I had this beautiful experience—and maybe you’ve had a similar experience in your family as you’ve raised your kids.

We were maybe in my third or fourth year of study. My wife has an early childhood background. She knows child development. She knows what kids need.

She was a little skeptical about a lot of the things I was starting to talk about and discover as I went through university and got into the depths of what the research meant—comparing and contrasting it with what was mainstream, but actually not always quite right.

We had some tension around how we should respond to the children. I was moving away from that authoritarian bent and developing ideas around exploring their world more.

One night, I came home from university a little late. It was probably around 9:00 p.m. Our three children were still awake.

As I drove into the driveway, all the lights in the house were on. The windows were open. Looking through the living room window, I could tell the house was—to put it politely—a mess.

And as I stepped into the house, the kids—it was just awful.

I walked over to Kylie and said, “Honey, it looks like it’s been a pretty tough day.”

I was trying to be compassionate and empathic. I was really trying to do what psychology says is the right thing to do.

Kylie looked at me without hesitation and said, “Don’t give me any of that psychology crap. I’ve had the worst day in the world.”

Then she stormed out and said, “You fix it,” and walked into the bedroom and closed the door.

Again, this is not how my wife usually is, but it had been a really rough day. The kids were feral. The house was a mess.

I looked at my priorities. I sat down with the child who was struggling the most and worked with her for two or three minutes. She calmed down, I gave her a little food, and put her to bed.

Within about 20 minutes, I had all three kids in bed, and I was so proud of myself.

I stepped into the kitchen and started tidying up. I thought, I’ll just give Kylie some space.

After another 30 or 40 minutes of tidying, I stepped into the living room and said, “Honey, I know you’re really upset. It’s been a pretty tough day. I wasn’t trying to be judgy or anything.”

And she said, “It’s fine for you. You’re not dealing with it all day. You walk in and think you can just snap your fingers and everything’s fine.”

Then she looked at me and said, “But tonight, you walked in and it feels like you snapped your fingers and everything’s fine.”

And we had this beautiful conversation where she said, “I’ve been resenting the things you’ve been trying to tell me because it felt like you were telling me I was wrong.

“But I’ve been watching, and I’m actually seeing that the things you’re doing are working, and our family is feeling better.”

It took four or five years to get there, Sarah.

It’s not like I had this epiphany—I’m a bad father, I need to change—and suddenly I was a good dad.

There were many embarrassing, shameful moments after that epiphany where I still made terrible decisions and treated the children badly.

Even today, I still lose my temper, say things I shouldn’t, and get frustrated, because kids are kids and we’re fallible humans.

But we call parenting parenting because it’s about us. If it were about children, we’d call it childrening.

Which sounds silly, right?

Dr. Justin: But what I’ve really discovered is that if I can learn how to regulate myself—high emotions equal low intelligence—then I can regulate my emotions, turn them up or down appropriately for the context, and keep them in harmony with my long-term goals, which are to have loving, kind relationships with my children.

If I can do that, I’m going to approach them with a tremendously different focus than I will if I’m looking for a short-term fix.

And that is something—

Anger is a habit. Yelling is a habit. Time-out is a habit. Reward charts are a habit.

We can create other habits. We just have to understand the processes and principles behind those habits and then practice them, like we practice a song on the piano, until we finally get it right.

Sarah: I love that.

So you and Kylie really had a journey—a back-and-forth dance of your own processes and your own development.

I do love how you say it’s really about us. Whenever I’m working with clients, after a couple of sessions they’ll say, “You know what? This isn’t even about my kid. This is just about me.”

Dr. Justin: Yes. Yes.

Sarah: Nobody wants to believe that at first, because it’s so much easier to think, I’ve just got to change them and what they’re doing.

But it’s really all about what we’re bringing to the moment and what we’re bringing to the relationship.

Dr. Justin: I get in trouble sometimes for being overly provocative and saying things that are insensitive, so a quick warning:

I want to say what I’m about to say with all the compassion in the world and all the tenderness and care in the world, because I work with people every single day who are dealing with exactly the struggles you’re talking about.

I want to step into the world of neurodiversity—ADHD, autism, trauma—those kinds of areas.

What we’re talking about applies there as well. It’s just harder.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: But ultimately, if I’m raising an ADHD child or a child who’s been through a traumatic experience, once again, parenting is not about them. It’s about how I show up for them.

So I can say, “Well, my child’s like that,” or, “I’m like this because of the diagnosis,” or because of the label, or because of the trauma, or because of the neural networks doing what they’re doing.

I can say all of those things, and many people do. It’s understandable, and I have all the compassion in the world for them when they do.

But the key thing I want to highlight is that in spite of all of those challenges your child might be facing—or even that you might be facing—today begins now.

It begins with what you put on your face and what you think in your mind.

If we can soften our features and go to our children with kindness and compassion while still holding appropriate limits—or working with them to develop appropriate limits—then what we can say is:

“Yes, that bad thing happened,” or, “Yes, we are dealing with this difficulty, so what are we going to do about it?”

We can fall into the I can’t do anything way of thinking, which is really ineffective and doesn’t help at all.

Or we can step into I have this incredible thing psychologists call agency, or self-efficacy, where I can make a decision now, and if we work on it, we can actually improve things.

It might be a longer, harder road. There may be more obstacles to climb over than a typical family without those challenging circumstances.

It may be harder.

But we can always improve.

I never want to be the person who puts limits on what kids can do or what parents can do.

If we change our language, change our focus, and recognize that this is a long game—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: —which requires sustained effort every single day, it’s extraordinary the progress we can make and the changes we can create in our home and our family.

Sarah: For sure. Yeah.

And unfortunately, it’s a long game, right? Because I think today we always want quick answers and solutions.

Really, it’s just showing up every day as best you can and repairing when you don’t show up the way you wish you had.

And I think another really important part of it—which you were talking around a little bit—is trying to understand our child’s experience and see things from their perspective.

I was just talking to a client about that today:

What’s the most emotionally generous explanation you can come up with for their behavior?

Because we don’t actually know why anyone does anything, since we’re not in their brain.

But we often jump to, They’re being rude on purpose, or They’re trying to annoy me.

Really, if we can think, Well, I don’t know why they’re doing this, but there’s probably a reason, because kids want to be good. They want to be connected with us.

And just reminding ourselves that they’re not giving us a hard time—they’re having a hard time.

That actually makes it easier, I think, to show up as your best, most compassionate self—with, as you say, soft eyes and warm features.

Dr. Justin: Yeah.

No child wakes up in the morning thinking, Today’s the day. I’m just going to ruin everything.

This is the perfect opportunity. My parents are tired and frazzled. There’s a cost-of-living crisis. There are all these challenges happening, and if ever there was a moment—it’s now. I’m going to do it today.

They don’t wake up thinking that.

Like you said—and you said it so perfectly—kids really do want to please us.

I know some parents listening to me say that right now are thinking, No, no. My child does not want to please me.

And so the question becomes: Why? Why are they struggling?

And maybe this is a nice way for me to bring in some of the principles I learned as I went deeper into self-determination theory.

There are a couple of times when children are almost guaranteed to be challenging, and this has nothing to do with self-determination theory. This is just general psychology and wellbeing.

I always think of Germany. A police officer tells you to stop, but they don’t say the word stop because they’re German.

In German, the word for stop is halt—H-A-L-T.

So we add an S to the end, and the acronym becomes:

Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired, or Stressed.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Those are the five times when you can all but guarantee your children are not going to be doing well.

If they are hungry, get some food into them—ideally a little protein, because it’s satiating and helps them feel full quickly.

If they’re angry, then we’ve got to remember: high emotions equal low intelligence.

You can’t think straight in a high emotional state.

So our job is to get curious, not furious, because if we fight fire with fire, we end up with a scorched-earth policy and everything gets burned.

Dr. Justin: Lonely.

I could be sitting right next to you, Sarah, and feel disconnected and lonely—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: —even if we were very close.

Our children are sometimes literally sitting at our kitchen bench, and they feel alone. They feel a little lost. Because of the way we’re responding to them—with hard commands, correction, and direction rather than connection—they feel lonely.

Tired.

I don’t even need to explain that.

Even as adults, I don’t know any couple who, at the end of witching hour—or whatever you might call it in North America, that 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. stretch when the kids—

Sarah: Yeah.

Dr. Justin: —are just oof…

It’s the end of that period, and you’re exhausted, the kids are exhausted, and you look at your husband or wife and say, “You know what? We are so tired. We’re shattered. But boy, are we nailing it tonight.”

Nobody ever says that when they’re tired—

Sarah: Yeah.

Dr. Justin: —because you’re not nailing it. You’re just hanging in there.

And it’s the same with kids.

Then the S is for stressed, and that includes sickness, because sickness is a stress on the body as well.

Those five indicators are going to let you know when your child is likely to be challenging, and I think they’re really good to watch out for.

But if we go a little deeper and talk about self-determination theory, it says that each of us has these needs.

You have them, Sarah, and I have them, and our children have them—even your mother-in-law has them.

We have three basic psychological needs.

When we’re in environments where those needs are supported, oh my goodness, we thrive. These are environments we’re drawn to and attracted to. We approach them with a smile on our face and can’t wait to be there.

But if the environment is what researchers call need-thwarting or need-frustrating—meaning it frustrates and thwarts those needs—then we avoid it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Or, if we’re in those environments, we act in ways that are challenging.

So the basic psychological needs are:

Number one: a sense of relationship, or relatedness. That’s the technical term they use.

Relatedness is a sense of mutual belonging.

Sarah: So would it be similar to mattering? Like you feel like you matter to somebody?

Dr. Justin: Yeah. There’s been a lot of talk recently about mattering.

But it’s reciprocal mattering. It’s not just one-way.

It’s I matter to you, but you matter to me.

Sarah: Yeah.

Dr. Justin: Let me use Mother’s Day as an example.

We just had Mother’s Day in Australia at the start of May.

If I’ve got a great relationship with my mother-in-law, and it’s Mother’s Day, I’m probably going to spend the morning with my wife and family while my children celebrate their mum. Then maybe at lunchtime, we head over to the in-laws to celebrate my wife’s mum.

If I feel like that relationship need is supported at my mother-in-law’s—meaning there’s mutual belonging, I matter to her, she matters to me, we enjoy one another’s company, and it feels good—I’m going to say:

“Great. Let’s get in the car. Let’s go. What do we need to do?”

But if I’m going to a need-frustrating environment—if there’s tension, antagonism, snide remarks, eye rolls, silence, defensiveness, or wounds from bad things that happened in the past—that environment doesn’t feel good to me.

So I’m going to say to Kylie:

“Honey, why don’t you take the kids to your mum’s? Have a great lunch. We’ve made a big mess this morning, and I think the best thing I can do for your Mother’s Day”—and I’ll frame it nicely, of course—“is stay home, tidy the house, clean up the kitchen, get everything ready, and put dinner on for tonight so you can have your perfect Mother’s Day dinner. I’ll see you in four hours.”

And then I send her out the door.

Why?

Because my in-laws’ home has become a need-thwarting or need-frustrating environment. I just don’t want to be there.

And if I am there, I’m going to be sullen and sulky. I might try my best for half an hour and then say, “Oh, this is too hard,” and retreat—

Sarah: Or text. The adult version of misbehavior.

Dr. Justin: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

But if I’m a child in a need-thwarting or need-frustrating environment, I’m going to get into fights with the kids I don’t like.

Or I’m going to say, “I don’t want to go to school because everyone picks on me because I don’t regulate my behavior properly because I’ve got ADHD.”

Right?

So school becomes a place I don’t want to go.

Or maybe you have a faith background and your child doesn’t have any friends at church.

Or you’ve signed them up for soccer, but they don’t know anyone on the team.

And they’re saying, “Yeah, but I don’t want to go.”

It all comes down to relationship.

Relationship is the basic psychological need that’s being thwarted.

Now, the second basic psychological need is competence.

Competence, I would describe as feeling like I can do the thing I’m being asked to do.

Sarah: Or that I want to do.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. We’ll get to want to in just a second, because want-to is the third basic psychological need—autonomy.

So stay with me on competence for a second.

Competence is capability. Capacity.

It’s not even necessarily about being able to do something—it’s about feeling like you’re making progress toward the goal.

Let’s say I’m joining acrobatics and trying to learn how to do a handstand.

That’s really tricky. It’s a tough skill.

If I show up every week to acrobatics, even if I’ve got great friends there—so my relationship need is supported—and I love my coach, but every time I try to do a handstand my shoulders buckle, my elbows aren’t straight, my form is wrong, I fall over, or I can’t stay up…

After four or five or six weeks, I’m going to say:

“I don’t like this anymore. I’m out.”

I had a daughter who wanted to come cycling with me.

I’m a really keen cyclist. I ride on the road. I’m a middle-aged man in Lycra.

But I also ride on the velodrome.

You’ve seen those velodrome bikes at the Olympics—the indoor track where they go around and around and around.

You might have noticed that after they finish the race, they keep pedaling and do another 10 laps.

The reason is twofold.

Number one: there are no brakes on those bikes.

And second: they use what’s called a fixed gear, meaning that when the wheels are spinning, the pedals are spinning.

If you stop pedaling, you’re going to get thrown over the handlebars because the wheels are still moving, which means the pedals are still moving, even if you try to stop them.

So you just have to keep riding until the bike slows down.

My daughter wanted to come to Friday night velodrome racing with me.

We didn’t have the money, but we spent all this cash on a bike, the Lycra, the helmet, the special shoes—it cost a lot, and I was a poor university student.

But my daughter wanted to cycle with me, and I wasn’t going to miss that opportunity. So we sacrificed and made it happen.

Unfortunately, she was competing against girls who had been riding for four, five, or six years.

For the first few weeks, she gave it a good go, but she was losing by several laps every race.

After about a month, she said:

“Dad, I don’t want to do this anymore.”

And my response was:

“But I’ve spent all this money.”

But what was really going on was that as much as she liked the girls and the atmosphere, she didn’t feel competent—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: —and she didn’t see progress.

She didn’t feel like she was ever going to master the activity, so her motivation and wellbeing plummeted.

Cycling became a need-thwarting environment for her.

Whether it’s piano, violin, rock climbing, cycling, swimming, math, PE class—it doesn’t matter.

If your kids don’t feel like they can do the thing, they’re going to push back.

They’re going to say:

“This is too hard. I don’t like it.”

They won’t use these exact words, but what they’re really saying is:

“This is a need-frustrating environment for me. I don’t like it. I don’t want to be there.”

And then they start to act out.

My mom got to the stage with me as a 13-year-old boy where she was physically holding me by the arm and dragging me into my piano lessons.

Dr. Justin: Which brings me to my third and final basic psychological need, which is autonomy.

A lot of people hear the word autonomy and think it means freedom—that kids can do whatever they want. They think it means independence.

That’s not what autonomy means, certainly not in the strict scientific form we’re talking about within this theory.

Rather, autonomy comes down to identifying the value of an activity and therefore endorsing the actions required to do the activity.

See, if I, as a 12-year-old, looked at piano and thought:

This is going to be a lifelong skill that will bring me joy, that I’ll be able to share with others, that I can use in service of my family and community. If I can play piano or keyboard, I could be in a band. I could do all of these things.

If I identified the value in the activity, then I would endorse the work required to learn it.

So autonomy is not about freedom and independence. It’s about choice based on values.

That’s a lot when you’re thinking about three-, four-, and five-year-olds, but not necessarily—

Sarah: No, I love that.

We talk about that all the time in my communities—how important it is for kids to have autonomy.

And I think you can have autonomy even when kids can’t be independent, right?

Because you can’t have a four-year-old who’s independent, but you can have a four-year-old who can make decisions that matter.

Dr. Justin: Yes, yes.

And that decision goes well beyond, Do you want to wear the blue suit or the green one?

Sarah: I’ll quote our friend Alfie Kohn. He says, “Kids should have the ability to make decisions that make adults gulp a little bit.”

Dr. Justin: I love it. Yes. Beautiful.

Let me give an adult version of this, and then I’ll swing it back into childhood, because sometimes parents hear this and think, This isn’t quite computing for me.

In Canada, you drive on the right-hand side of the road.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: And it’s true that if you choose to drive on the left-hand side of the road, the authorities will probably get involved. You may cause harm to somebody. You could even end up in prison.

But even in the middle of the night, when nobody’s on the road, I can’t imagine there are too many Canadians who get in the car and think:

Tonight’s the night. Nobody’s watching. I’m gonna drive on the left.

You are being absolutely controlled by the government and by the law. You’re driving on the right-hand side of the road.

But because you identify the value in driving on the right-hand side of the road, nobody has to compel you to do it.

You just do it because you endorse the idea that driving on the right is safer. It’s what you need to do.

So our job with our children is twofold.

First, when it comes to these basic psychological needs, we want to help them be in environments—or create environments—where those needs are supported.

We want to send them to a school where they have good relationships, where somebody says, “Hey, come sit with us,” where teachers know them by name and smile when they see them and are excited to support them.

A school where they’re able to experience progress—which might mean less emphasis on grades and more emphasis on developing capability.

And a school where they feel like they have some say in where they’re going and what they’re doing.

Rather than being forced to attend a school like I was when I was a teenager, they get to say:

“No, I want to go to that school because that’s where my friends are.”

Or:

“That’s where the teachers help me feel good.”

Or:

“That’s where my interests lie.”

That’s the basic psychological-needs concept.

Now let’s bring that into discipline, which is what started this whole conversation.

Based on this theory—and I guess it ties back to a lot of what Alfie Kohn has said as well—I developed a little model that’s really easy to memorize and even easier to enact.

I call it the Three E’s of Effective Discipline.

The Three E’s of Effective Discipline are need-supportive.

If you look at the root of the word discipline, it comes from the idea that we teach, guide, and instruct—that we show the way to follow.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: But if you look at the modern definition of discipline, the modern definition is punish.

Punish means exact retribution. It means hurt. It means make someone pay a price.

Sarah: Make people feel bad on purpose.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. That’s exactly right.

And I’m interested in disciplining our kids, not punishing our kids.

Punishment is need-thwarting, right?

If you make someone feel bad on purpose, there goes the relationship. They feel incompetent, and you’ve taken away their autonomy.

So standard discipline strategies—whether it’s time-out, spanking, yelling, withdrawing privileges, taking away the iPad, bribery—all of those standard discipline practices trample over basic psychological needs.

We’ve got to come up with something better.

So I developed the Three E’s of Effective Discipline, which are basically this:

On a beautiful bed of empathy, we explore, we explain, and we empower.

Sarah: Ooh, I love that.

Dr. Justin: Explore basically means I sit down with my child at an appropriate time.

Because we always try to fix things right here, right now.

Sometimes we need to, but often intervention simply to make sure people and property aren’t hurt—that’s all you need.

Then you can say to your child:

“We’ll have a chat about this later when nobody’s got a head full of steam.”

Kick it down the road.

You don’t have to fix things right here, right now. Most of the time, it’s just not necessary.

So once everyone is calm, you explore.

You say:

“Hey, I’ve noticed there’s been a lot of tension in our home lately between you and your brother.”

Or:

“Have you noticed that for the last few weeks we’ve had so much conflict about screens?”

And your child says, “Yeah.”

And you say:

“I just want to listen because parenting’s about parents, right? I must be getting something wrong here. Can you help me understand what I’m missing? Where am I going wrong? What’s the real problem from your perspective?”

Now, there are three things that make this better.

Number one: never do it with an audience.

Kids always want to save face. They don’t feel competent when we start these conversations in front of other people.

Number two: have some treats.

Because once you’re feeding them, they’re like:

“Oh, I’m not in trouble. We’re just chatting, and there are cookies,” or a thick shake, or something like that.

And number three: take notes.

When you’re trying to solve problems—and that’s really what discipline is—

The Three E’s of Effective Discipline are about problem-solving.

Discipline—meaning helping, teaching, guiding, instructing—is really about solving problems.

So if I want to solve problems effectively in my home—if I want to discipline my children well—I’m trying to say:

“Where are you coming from? What am I missing?”

When you take notes on what your kids are saying, it’s amazing how much information they give you because they realize:

You’re really listening to me.

Sarah: Yeah. You’re taking me seriously. You’re writing down what I say.

Dr. Justin: They’re blown away by it.

So they’ll tell you a bunch of stuff.

Now, every now and then they won’t. Sometimes they’ll shrug and say, “I don’t know.”

And you can say:

“Well, if you don’t know, that’s fine. But if you did know…”

This drives kids crazy, but it’s my favorite sentence.

“If you did know, what do you think the answer would be?”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: And they roll their eyes.

“Well, I don’t know. That’s what I said. If I knew, I’d tell you, but I don’t know.”

And I say:

“I know you don’t know, and I understand that if you did know, you would tell me. But if you did know, what would you tell me?”

Sarah: I love that.

Dr. Justin: They get this feeling—it’s like this horrible psychological trick where:

I don’t know the answer, but if I had to come up with one, I guess I’d say this…

And now the conversation starts.

You get momentum.

Sarah: You Jedi mind-trick them.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. It’s beautiful.

And you write it down.

At no point are you allowed to interrupt.

At no point are you allowed to tell them they’re wrong.

At no point are you allowed to respond with your adult wisdom.

You just listen.

Sarah: Okay, and we’re still on explore?

Still on the first E?

Dr. Justin: We’re still on the first E.

You make all these notes, and once it sounds like they’ve told you everything, you say:

“All right. So what you’re telling me is…”

And then you read the notes back.

This is the oldest psychological strategy in the book—I’m not saying anything new here.

If they say, “Yes, that’s what I’m saying,” you say:

“All right. Great. I’ve got it.”

If they say no, then you say:

“Oh, what have I missed? How did I get this wrong? Clarify it for me.”

And they give you more information.

But there’s a really valuable question at the end.

When they say, “Yes, that’s what I’m saying,” you ask:

“Fantastic. Is there anything else?”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: The power of asking that extra question is profound.

It forces them to go deeper.

Sometimes they’ll say, “No, that’s it.”

But often, their first answers are shallow answers to get you off their back.

They’re thinking:

I’m telling you what I think you want to hear.

But when you say:

“Got it. You’re happy with this answer? Fantastic. Is there anything else going on?”

That’s when they look at you and think:

Oh—you’re actually serious about this. You really care.

Sarah: And you’re really listening to me.

Dr. Justin: Yeah.

And it’s profound what children will give you after you ask, “Is there anything else?”

Once you’ve got everything written down, confirmed, and you’re clear, the next step is explain.

Dr. Justin: Now, there are a couple of things around explain.

Explain is basically the part where you tell them what they need to know. This is the parent bit.

But all too often, we step into lecturing, and the kids fall asleep. They’re like, “Oh, here we go again. I thought this was going to be different, but it’s no different after all.”

So there are a couple of things we need to get right here.

Number one: if you’re going to explain anything to your children, my recommendation is that you keep it to less than 20 seconds.

Now, there’s no science around this. This is just my experience in talking with parents and kids in my own family. I find that if you talk for more than 10 to 20 seconds, kids really do tune out, and it goes back to the way things have always been.

The second thing is that I always ask permission.

“Now that I’ve listened to you, Sarah, there are just one or two things I’d love to run by you about what’s going on. Do you mind if I do that?”

I want to make this absolutely clear: as a parent, you do not need your child’s permission to tell them things. I really, absolutely, honestly believe that. As the parent, you have the right to tell them stuff they need to know.

But this isn’t about rights. This is about effectiveness.

If I launch into, “Well, Sarah, now that I’ve listened to that, I get it, but I need to tell you these two things,” I’m already bringing defensiveness back into the relationship.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Barriers are coming up.

Whereas if I say, “Sarah, this is so helpful. As I’ve listened to you, two things have come to mind. Do you mind if I share both of those with you?” Your instant response, even as I say it—I’m watching your face—

Sarah: I’m nodding.

Dr. Justin: And you’re going—

Sarah: Yeah.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. I actually want to know.

You’re opening up your heart and mind to me, and we’re just role-playing this.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: And that’s what our kids do. They’re like, “Oh, okay.” Because we’ve given them the courtesy of listening—

Sarah: Well, and you’re not trying to use your power over them.

Dr. Justin: Exactly.

This is a non-coercive, really supportive conversation.

And I still haven’t had this happen. A lot of parents will say, “Well, what happens if they say no?”

And I’m like, “I’ve raised six kids, and they’ve never actually looked at me and said, ‘Now that I think about it, no, I don’t need to know anything that you…’”

They’ve just never done it.

But even if they did—

Sarah: Well, if they do, it’s probably that they’re—what did you say? When emotions are high, intelligence is low. Maybe it wasn’t the right time to have the conversation.

If they’re saying no, then they’re probably still angry and holding onto whatever was going on for them.

Dr. Justin: Exactly.

But if they’re that angry, they’re probably not going to have explored nicely with you anyway.

Sarah: Yes, exactly. So pick—

Dr. Justin: A different time.

You’re probably not even going to—

Sarah: Get to that point. Yeah.

Dr. Justin: So it’s very much: keep it really short, ask permission, and then share.

Sarah: Okay. So give me examples.

You said, “We’ve been fighting about screens,” was one example. You also gave the example of, “You’ve been fighting a lot with your brother.”

So in the explain—10 to 20 seconds—choose one of those scenarios. After hearing your child, what would you say in that 10 to 20 seconds?

Dr. Justin: I did this just the other day with my 16-year-old daughter, Lily, who is on social media more than she should be. There’s been some tension and conflict.

I listened. She shared some ideas, and I said, “There are just a couple of things I want to run by you. Is that okay?”

She said, “Sure, Dad.”

I said, “Great. There are certain times when we’re trying to connect or have family time, and there are certain contexts where you’re on your device and we just can’t reach you.”

She looked at me and said, “Yeah, I know.”

I said, “Okay. The second thing I want to highlight is that we’ve noticed you’re sleeping in because, even though you’re not supposed to, you’ve been taking your phone into your bedroom at night and staying up late scrolling. Unless I’m reading it wrong, I’m pretty sure that’s what’s been happening.”

And she said, “No, I have been, Dad. You’re right.”

So it’s just two really succinct sentences where I’m stating what I’m seeing. I’m sharing my experience.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: If it were the sibling fighting, I’d say, “Yeah, your brother is really annoying. I get what’s going on. Sometimes I wish he didn’t live in our house as well.”

I might have a joke with them about the challenge associated with that.

And then I might say, “So when this happens, can I just share how it feels for me? It breaks my heart. I love both of you so very much, and my dream is for our family to enjoy being in one another’s company and to look forward to conversations and jokes and doing the things we do. When this stuff is going on, it feels like that’s a pipe dream.

“And secondly, psychologically—you know I’ve got this PhD in psychology—I know that there’s damage being done to the way your brother feels about himself. That’s what I’m worried about.”

So I’ve had both of those little conversations on two different topics, sharing two different things, and both were about 10 seconds each.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Again, it’s conversational. It’s not lecture-style.

Sarah: And it’s from the heart.

I can feel it, even though this is just an example you’re giving. I can feel that it’s from your heart—that you’re really being open and sharing with your child what your true concerns are.

You’re not trying to power over or control. You’re really sharing a heartfelt sentiment.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. Thank you. That’s the goal.

You won’t always do that, but that’s the goal.

The reason there’s a problem is because your values are not being upheld in the home, and you’re trying to communicate that in a way that shows you honor them and that they’ve got a brain.

Now, we’ve used two really grown-up versions—or teenage versions, I guess. But you can have the same conversations with three- and four-year-olds. It’s just shorter. It’s simpler.

Usually, with those conversations, in a pretty tight timeframe—60 to 90 seconds—you’ve done the whole process.

There is a higher-order—

Sarah: Okay, so what’s the third part?

Dr. Justin: Just before I get to that one, if you really want to do the advanced version of explain, what I’ll often do after I’ve explored with my child is say:

“Okay, so this is the bit where I’d normally explain what’s going on from my point of view. I wonder if you can tell me what you think I’m going to say here.”

Sarah: Ah.

Dr. Justin: And so I get them to explain the explain to me.

The reason that’s so effective is that whenever my mouth is the one that’s moving, my brain is the one that’s working.

If I can get their mouth moving, their brain is doing the heavy lifting.

Sarah: Love that.

Dr. Justin: That’s really, really effective.

And then the last one—

Sarah: Is empower.

And you’re also helping them see things and develop empathy, right? To see things from somebody else’s perspective.

Dr. Justin: Yes. Powerful.

The last one is empower.

That’s literally as simple as saying, “Okay, so I get where you’re coming from. We’ve had that conversation very thoroughly. You know what my challenge is here. What do you think we should do?”

“Where do we go from here? How do we solve this in a way that we can both feel good about?”

It’s true that every now and then, your child will shrug their shoulders and say, “I don’t know.”

Or they’ll shrug and say, “Well, we should just do what I want to do.”

And as a parent, that’s where you step in and say my favorite line:

“Don’t you just wish? Don’t you just wish we could?”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Because—well, let me ask you, Sarah. When I say, “Don’t you just wish,” or, “Wouldn’t it be good if we could?”—same thing—what have I actually said?

Sarah: Total empathy. Heaps of empathy.

Dr. Justin: Total empathy.

But I’ve also said something else really clearly.

Sarah: That that’s not going to work.

Dr. Justin: Correct. The answer is no.

But it’s a no with so much love, kindness, empathy, and gentleness in it—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: —that your child goes, “Oh, yeah. I know.”

And then you say, “So let’s see if we can come up with a solution that will work.”

What else might work for you when it comes to your brother?

What else might work for you when it comes to the party on Friday night that I’m not willing to let you go to?

What else could work when it comes to our screen challenges? Because this is an ongoing issue for us, isn’t it?

Every now and then, you won’t get an answer right away. You’ll say, “Well, let’s talk about it again tonight,” or, “Let’s talk about it again tomorrow once you’ve had some time to think about it.”

But I’m big on deadlines.

“We need to have this worked out by the end of the weekend, okay? I don’t want to go through another week of this. We’ve got to find a solution. If we haven’t had another chat by tomorrow night, we’re going to sit down and work it out then.”

And I also don’t have a problem at this point—

Laura Walker is a researcher at BYU in Utah, and she did a study published in the Journal of Adolescence where she found that parents who use these kinds of strategies—she’s not talking about the Three E’s of Effective Discipline, because that’s the thing I developed, but it’s based on the same sort of theory that she researches—

Parents who use these kinds of strategies, even when they do have to step in and say, “All right, well, we haven’t come up with a solution, so it’s going to be my way,” kids are much more likely to be responsive and compliant—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: —because we’ve been through a process with them that is not autocratic. It’s not authoritarian.

They’ve felt like they had a voice. Their perspective has been seen and heard. They’ve had some input.

And even though they don’t get what they want all the time—because we’re the parents, and sometimes the fact that we’ve climbed 47 rungs on the ladder of life and they’ve only climbed 13 is all we need.

Sarah: That’s what I call in my work the goodwill bank.

When your kids experience you as collaborative, non-coercive, and not power-tripping—when they know, over the period of their childhood, that they can trust you to take their preferences into account and be respectful of them—then when you do have to say no about something, even if they don’t like it, there’s this goodwill bank behind you and this level of trust.

When you mentioned, “You can’t go to the party on Friday,” I never had that issue with my kids because everything was so collaborative.

We’d have similar conversations. I didn’t have—I’m not very good at thinking of things like the Three E’s—but similar kinds of processes where they’d say why they wanted to go, I’d say what my concerns were, and then they’d invariably say, “Oh, yeah, you’re probably right.”

It was never, “You can’t go.”

It was, “These are my concerns. This is what I’ve been thinking about.”

Because they experienced that whole process over years of parenting, you don’t get the pushback because they don’t feel like you’re power-tripping them.

Dr. Justin: Yeah.

Sarah, I had an experience with one of my adult children who was still living at home. I think she was maybe 19 or 20 when this happened.

She wanted to go and do something, and I said to her, “You’re an adult. You do get to choose for yourself whether you will do this or not, but I’ve got some really big concerns about you doing it.

“I actually think you’re putting yourself into a dangerous situation. There’s some history, some volatility, and some challenges if you go and involve yourself in this particular activity. Tell me why this is so important to you.”

So she walked me through it, and I said, “Okay, I get it. How do my concerns stack up against your desire to be there?”

And she said, “Dad, I get what you’re saying, but I want to go.”

And I said, “Okay, so…”

You used that beautiful term, the goodwill bank. I can’t remember exactly what my words were, but I’m going to use your term right now, because I essentially said:

“I’m going to use the goodwill I’ve built up with you over the last however many years and step in really firmly and say you’re making a mistake.

“As your dad, even though you’re an adult, I want to forbid you to go. That’s how strongly I feel about this. To the degree that I can, I forbid it.

“Ultimately, you will choose because you are an adult, but I don’t want you there.”

Sarah: I’m going on the record.

Dr. Justin: Yeah, yeah.

“I need you to trust that this is a bad idea. We can come up with any number of other activities you could do instead, with different people in a different location, but this is a bad idea, and you have none of my support should you go.

“If you go and something goes wrong, you call me and I’ll come rescue you. But it is a bad idea, and I forbid it.”

And I couldn’t believe I was saying those words. I’ve never said them in my life, and now I was saying them to an adult.

But she looked at me and said, “Okay.”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: She didn’t fight me. She didn’t say, “I can do what—”

Sarah: No, because you built up the history with her of how she experienced you.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. She was like, “Wow, this is serious. He’s never said that before. If he feels that strongly, maybe he’s right. Maybe I need to find an alternative.”

So anyway, that’s the Three E’s of Effective Discipline.

I feel like I’ve talked too much, Sarah. I wanted to be much more conversational, but I get carried away when we—

Sarah: No, no. I love it.

I feel like it’s very complementary to the things that I teach, and you’ve given me some new things to teach parents as well.

I love having sort of snappy—the Three E’s of Discipline. I think that’s great. I love it. I’ll share it.

Dr. Justin: Yeah, please. Absolutely.

It’s helped so many millions of parents.

Sarah: Yeah.

Well, I love that we’ve connected across the world—from the other side of the world to each other—and I look forward to hopefully talking to you again in March of 2027 when your book Boys comes out.

I figured we were going to talk about that, but we had such a lovely conversation about peaceful parenting, discipline, and—oh my God, it’s gone right out of my head—

Dr. Justin: Self-determination theory.

Sarah: Self-determination theory.

I think it was a really great conversation, and I really appreciate you sharing all of your experience and wisdom.

Dr. Justin: I loved the conversation.

Like I said, it was too one-sided. I wish we’d been able to go backward and forward a bit more, but let’s do it again.

Let’s chat again next year when the book comes out, and we’ll talk about boys and how to help them.

There’s so much talk about toxic masculinity.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Wouldn’t it be great if we could give them a view of healthy masculinity—a model of that to follow?

That’s what my book is all about: how we can guide boys into a healthy form of masculinity.

Sarah: Well, for folks in Australia, your book is coming out in June 2026. For folks in North America, it’s not coming out until spring 2027.

So I will definitely be ringing you up and having you come back on to talk about the book when you’ve got your North American release. I know we’re going to have a great conversation then.

Before I let you go, though, I have a question that I ask all my podcast guests:

If you had a time machine and you could go back and tell your younger parent self something, what advice would you give yourself?

Dr. Justin: Jean-Jacques Rousseau said there is—I can’t remember the quote exactly—but: What wisdom is there that is greater than kindness?

I’ve paraphrased it. It’s not perfect, but it’s something along those lines.

Interestingly, Rousseau had, I think, five children—maybe six—and he put them all into orphanages somewhere in the first 18 months of their lives so he could spend more time writing and focusing on how to be a good person, which I just find criminal. I can’t believe it.

So take it for what it’s worth, but “What wisdom is there that’s greater than kindness?” is what Rousseau said.

I’ve mentioned this idea of soft eyes a couple of times. If I could go back, I would teach myself about kindness. I’d teach myself about many of the things we’ve talked about today.

But I just want to quickly share the story of soft eyes.

As an academic, I want everything I say to be evidence-based. There is no evidence that I’m aware of where people have done any kind of randomized controlled trial where parents are asked to interact with their children with soft eyes, neutral eyes, hard eyes, or anything like that.

Soft eyes is this idea—

I was giving a presentation at a public library one time, and an elderly lady stepped into the back of the room, sat down, and listened to the last 25 or 30 minutes of my presentation. She must have liked what she could hear from the corridor outside, and she stepped in to listen.

After everybody had left, she walked over to me and said, “I really enjoyed what you shared. I’d love to tell you something my grandmother said to me.”

So we’re going back into the early 1900s.

Her grandmother said, “Whenever you’re talking to your children about matters of discipline, make sure you have soft eyes.”

And I thought, I really like that.

Because if you try to have a conversation with somebody and your eyes are soft, you just can’t say mean things. You can’t say harsh things. You can’t have harsh thoughts.

If you soften your eyes, your face softens and your heart softens. You have this beautiful compassion and kindness, this ability to see the best in them rather than the worst in them, to assume positive intent.

There’s something gorgeous about soft eyes.

So I would go back and quote Rousseau better than I just quoted him to you, and I would tell my younger self that soft eyes will make a tremendous impact on all of my relationships.

Sarah: Ah.

There’s an American—I don’t know if you’ve heard of him in Australia—but he’s a pretty well-known marriage counselor, Terry Real.

Dr. Justin: Oh, yeah. I quote him in my book.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. He does a lot of work about—well, he says something like, “There’s nothing that harshness can accomplish that kindness can’t accomplish better.”

Dr. Justin: That’s so beautiful.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Thank you. That’s inspiring. I’m so glad you shared that.

Sarah: Yeah. I love it.

It’s hard to remember, but I think it is true. And I wish that—and I know the world needs a dose of that right now.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: One hundred percent.

Well, thank you so much.

Where’s the best place for folks to go and find out more about you and what you do?

Dr. Justin: Probably my podcast, the Happy Families Podcast. My wife and I drop a 15-minute nugget of parenting wisdom every day, five days a week.

Sarah: Oh, wow!

Dr. Justin: Yeah. It’s a lot of content, but it’s bite-sized chunks, and it’s entertaining. We’re fun. We get to do it together.

And the Happy Families Podcast. I’ve got a website called happyfamilies.com.au, but basically, if you like what we’ve talked about—

Sarah: We’ll link to all of that in the show notes. We’ll link to your website and your podcast, and I’m sure it’s easy to find you.

Dr. Justin: That sounds great. Thanks, Sarah.

Sarah: Thank you so much.

Dr. Justin: What a great, great conversation. Lovely to be with you.

Reimagine Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet Substack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

👉 PSST- Are you currently parenting teens? Before we get into the podcast, I want to make sure you know that my Peaceful Parenting in the Teen Years group coaching course starts on Tuesday, May 5. Learn more and how to join us HERE.

Back to the podcast— You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Corey and I discuss peaceful parenting teens and tweens, including mindset shifts, connection strategies, sideways listening, and why the teen years can be joyful instead of scary.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

And if you love the podcast, FREE ways to help us out:1- Rate and review the podcast in your podcast player app2- “Like” this post by tapping the heart icon ♥️3- Share this with a friend. THANK YOU!

We talk about:

00:00 — Introduction: Peaceful parenting teens and tweens
01:02 — Why the teen years don’t have to be scary
02:39 — The importance of parents
04:48 — Don’t take teen behavior personally
06:32 — Responding to the feeling under the attitude
08:42 — Remembering how hard the teen years can feel
12:39 — Connection matters: “at what cost to the relationship?”
14:12 — Tip: sideways listening
15:41 — Tip: being a “potted plant”
17:51 — Tip: connect on their terms and timeline
21:17 — Why the teen years can be something to look forward to

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Peaceful Parenting in the Teen Years Course starting Tuesday, May 5th
Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Evelyn & Bobbie bras

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the summer for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Sarah: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. I have Corey here with me today, and we are going to be talking about peaceful parenting teens and tweens. Welcome, Corey.

Corey: Thanks for having me.

Sarah: All right, Corey, we were just reminiscing about how long we’ve known each other, and you have known me for eight years now. So you’ve seen me through all of the teen and tween years. How are you feeling about when your kids are getting closer to those ages?

Corey: I actually feel really good about it, and I tell people this all the time. I think from watching you go through it and seeing how much you loved and enjoyed the teen years, I actually don’t feel nervous at all. I feel excited. I’m really enjoying watching my kids get older.

Sarah: That’s so great. Yeah. I guess Maxine was 10, Asa was 13, and Lee was 16 when we met each other. So you really have seen me through all of those years. And Maxine, I can’t believe it, she’s going to be 19 soon, so I’m almost done with the teen years.

And you know, it’s really interesting because when they were little, Jesse and I went, “Oh my gosh, we’re going to have three teenagers at the same time.” And teenagers get such a bad rap. Everyone’s always talking about, “Oh, just wait. Just wait until they’re teenagers.” And I thought teenagers were amazing. Those were some of our best years when they were teenagers, and really, it’s all because of peaceful parenting.

I don’t think my kids are unusual. I mean, I think they’re great, but I think they were pretty typical teenagers, and I just think it’s peaceful parenting.

Corey: Yeah. I can’t get over how often I hear that. All the time, everyone’s just being like, “What’s it going to be like when they’re teenagers?” It’s this fear. It’s this cultural thing where everyone’s terrified of them.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. And teenagers can have a hard time. It’s interesting: I was looking at some of this research the other day, and there’s a study—actually, I think my dad sent this to me—about how the most protective factor for a teenager not getting into trouble or having issues when they’re teenagers is a warm relationship with parents. That’s the number one protective factor for how teenagers do.

So in peaceful parenting, it’s all about the relationship, right? It’s all about connection. Since we are talking about teens and tweens today, maybe we’ll talk about some of the mindset shifts that we need to make with teenagers and tweens, and then we’ll go over a couple of tips. How does that sound?

Corey: That sounds great.

Sarah: Great. And before we get too far into this, part of the reason we were talking about this is because I have a course coming up. It’s a small group coaching course. It’s part instruction, part coaching, about peaceful parenting teenagers. Because while the concepts are the same as peaceful parenting younger kids, there are some adjustments that we need to make for teenagers, and there are also special considerations for peaceful parenting teenagers.

So if anyone’s interested in that, it starts on Tuesday, on the first Tuesday in May—whatever the date is. And it will be recorded if you can’t make it live. If anyone’s interested in signing up, it’s for six weeks starting on this coming Tuesday. We’ll put a link in the show notes for more information and for signing up.

I only offer this once a year, and you really do need to have a teenager. Don’t sign up for this if your kid is 12 or 11. We’re really focusing on kids who are already teenagers. So check that out in the show notes if you’re interested in joining us.

Let’s talk about teens and tweens.

So, mindset. These are things that are really important to remember whether your kid is 4 or 14, but they’re especially important. I think peaceful parenting teenagers is like peaceful parenting on steroids.

Corey: That’s a really good way to describe it.

Sarah: Yeah. Everything that you need to do when your kid is younger, you need to do even more when they’re teenagers.

One of the things that I always remind clients and people—and reminded myself when my kids were teenagers—is: don’t take it personally. It can be so hard, I think, because they’re bigger and they look like adults in some ways, right? Even parents who find it easy not to take it personally if a four-year-old is like, “You’re the meanest mommy, and you’re not invited to my birthday party”—it’s easier for us not to take it personally when they’re little. But when your 14-year-old says, “I hate you,” or whatever, it can be really hard not to take it personally because they are bigger and more mature, and they seem like adults in so many ways.

Corey: And you’ve just invested so much time into that relationship.

Sarah: Yeah. And we have to remember, though, that their brain development is more similar to 4 than 14, and that’s something we’re going to get into in the course. But the way that the brain is developing, they’ve got big feelings, and the rational part of their brain is not as strong as it will become one day.

So really trying not to take it personally is so important when you’ve got a tween or a teen. And that brain transition that I was just talking about starts in the tween years, and then it continues on. My experience is that by around 15, kids are starting to smooth out a little bit with those big feelings.

Related to that, just like you would when your kid is four, try to ignore the attitude. I always say with teenagers, the drama is real, but we really need to try to ignore the attitude and respond to whatever the feeling is underneath. Again, this is all stuff that we talk about in the younger years, but with teenagers it’s even more important.

Corey: I’ve said to parents before, you know how you reacted so calmly when they said, “I want the blue cup, not the red cup,” or, “You cut my muffin wrong”? You sort of have to get back into that mentality, right? This is meaningful to them as teenagers.

Sarah: Yeah. Totally. If their hair looks bad, or the jeans they wanted to wear are in the wash, or whatever, it can be hard to remind ourselves of that.

The other big peaceful parenting idea that we really need to keep in mind, as much as we did when they were younger—and again, this is hard because they look mature. I think that’s one of the biggest things: they look mature, but they are not mature yet—is that they’re doing the best they can.

Corey: Yeah, totally. It’s exactly like when they’re little. You have to remember they really are doing the best they can. And when you think about it, think about us when we’re having those really big feelings. We’re still doing the best we can. So we have to give them that same sort of benefit of the doubt.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s hard. And it’s also hard because there’s probably in the back of the mind of most people who are listening and have teenagers this thought: “I can’t let them talk to me like this,” right? So that’s definitely something we’re going to go over in the course: how to respond.

It’s not that we are letting it go in the same way that we are with a four-year-old, but there’s a different way to respond that’s not going to be the traditional, quote, “discipline way.” So really having those skills of how to respond when you do get those big feelings, and reminding yourself that they’re doing the best they can, but also thinking about how you are scaffolding them to manage those feelings. That’s really important too.

I also think that we want to remember—I don’t know about you, but did you enjoy being 13 or 14?

Corey: Oh gosh, no.

Sarah: No, me either. Those were some of the most awful years. When everyone says, “Oh, to be young again,” I’m just like, “Thank goodness that I am through those years.” It was so hard to be a young teenager, or even an older teenager. So I think that when we have a teen or a tween, if we can remember how hard it can be to be that age, and just remember our own teen and tween years, that can really help.

Corey: I remember my mom used to say to me when I was super upset as a teenager something like, “Honestly, I wouldn’t go back if I could. It was just such a hard time.” And I remember that was the most comforting thing. I felt like she really did get that it was hard. There’s so much pressure because everyone always talks about the high school years being the best years of your life. So having someone just be like, “Actually, yeah, it is really hard,” is such an important thing to hear.

Sarah: When Maxine graduated from high school, she didn’t really like high school very much, and when she graduated, she said, “I’m glad I didn’t peak in high school.” I thought that was so funny.

Parents will often say to me—I’m thinking of this one client who is worried all the time. She thinks her daughter doesn’t have good self-confidence because her daughter is so concerned with what everyone else thinks about her. And I’m like, you know what? Honestly, that is part of being this age.

I remember once, one of my kids, when he was in, I think, grade nine, I bought these socks. They were from Winners, like the TJ Maxx/Winners type of store, and they were, I think, Nike socks with the little basketball player logo on them. Is that Nike? Anyway, whatever they were, they were plain white tube socks with the little Air Jordan basketball player logo on the ankle. They were just plain. Nothing special.

I brought them home, and he was like, “I can’t wear those socks.”

And I said, “Why not?”

And he said, “Because everyone’s going to look at them, and they’re going to say, ‘Why are you wearing those socks? You don’t play basketball.’”

And I was like, “Really? Are you kidding me?”

I don’t think anyone really would have said that, but that was his perception of being so under a magnifying lens that everyone was going to notice this, and he was going to get called out. It was just wild to me. I always think of that example of how they really feel so self-conscious, like everyone’s looking at them and judging them.

I don’t know. It’s actually making me feel a little anxious now, thinking about how I remember how hard that was. So I think really trying to remember our own teen and tween years is important. Maybe somebody listening had the best teen years ever, and more power to you if you did, but I think most of us can recall how difficult those years were.

I love that your mom said that to you because I think sometimes we forget. That’s why I’m reminding people. We forget sometimes because we get the golden glow of the past. I know some parents might say to their kids, “These are the best years of your life,” and how horrible would that be to hear from your mom when you were talking about having a hard time?

Corey: I often think about how I had to wear a uniform in high school, and I remember thinking that was the best thing ever because then you all looked the same, and it took off a level of pressure.

Sarah: Yeah.

Corey: For sure. So it really shows you that if they don’t have a uniform and they have to make all these choices, kids do seem to point out things about each other at this level of scrutiny that we just don’t have as adults.

Sarah: I remember I had a diary where I wrote down the outfits that I wore so that I wouldn’t repeat an outfit.

Corey: Oh my goodness.

Sarah: I know. Isn’t that awful? I was worried that people would say, “Why are you wearing that? You wore that last week.” Now I wear the same thing every day and nobody cares.

Corey: Me too. I actually realized I’ve gone back to a uniform because I found that so comforting in high school.

Sarah: Yeah. It’s so hard.

Okay, so let’s talk about some tips. There’s actually a lot more in mindset, but I want to get to some tips. In the course, we’re going to go over a lot more nuts and bolts about hygiene, diet, exercise, rules, guiding them, autonomy—there’s a lot that we’re going to talk about. Sex and drugs and alcohol. And because it’s a small group, I can also cater it to whatever people feel they need.

It’s about half full right now as we’re taping it, but I would love to be able to work more deeply with whoever’s listening to this.

So let’s go on to some tips. These are basically connection tips, and one thing that I repeat over and over again in the course is: at what cost to the relationship?

I’ll tell the story again. I know you’ve heard it a million times, but when my oldest son was in high school, he said, “Mom, so many of my friends don’t answer their phones when their parents call, or they don’t tell their parents where they are. Some of them don’t even go home at night.”

And then he said, sort of disdainfully, “You’re really lucky that I care what you and Dad think.”

I realized that is so much of peaceful parenting, right? Peaceful parenting teenagers is that relationship.

So let’s go over some tips for connection, and we’ll get to some nuts and bolts here.

Have you ever heard of sideways listening?

Corey: Yes. And you know what? I think this is actually one of the things I recommend to people the most after hearing you teach this, because I think it is the easiest.

Sarah: Why don’t you explain it?

Corey: Sideways listening is setting up an environment with your kid where they can talk to you and where there’s low pressure. You’re side by side. This could be driving somewhere in the car, going for a walk, sitting and playing video games with them, or doing dishes together. It’s any low-pressure environment where you don’t have to look each other in the face and feel the intensity of, “We’re having a big conversation now.” It just takes that whole level down.

Or even just lying with them in bed, if they want to lie beside you in bed. Even teenagers still like to do that sometimes.

Sarah: Yeah, for sure. I think that’s also probably a tip that works for anyone who’s not comfortable with eye contact.

Corey: Oh gosh, that’s me.

Sarah: Yeah. Some of our parents listening might have neurodivergent kids who aren’t comfortable with eye contact, and they’ve probably discovered that those situations where you’re not looking at someone are when kids tend to open up.

And that’s also, I think, why with kids of all ages, you get the bedtime dump of what’s happened in their day, right?

So sideways listening. Really setting up some opportunities for that can be great for teens and tweens.

Okay. Next, I’ll do this like a quiz for you. Do you know what being a potted plant refers to?

Corey: Okay, so I think this is what a parent I was working with recently talked about, where they said, “I feel like I’m not having a lot of connection with my child, but I just make sure I’m always around. I’m there in the morning when they’re getting ready. I’m there when they get home from school. I’m just around and available.”

Sarah: Yeah. Basically, it’s being a presence that is not demanding. You’re there, and you’re sharing space. I like to think of it as sharing space.

For us, it was pretty easy because our house isn’t very big and there were a lot of people in the same room as each other. It’s funny too, because when Jesse and I were mapping out how we wanted our family and our lives to be, and how we were going to work things out with working and stuff, we both talked about how we really wanted, if possible—and I’m not trying to make anyone feel bad if this isn’t what they’re doing—to have somebody there when kids came home from school.

Our joke was, “Even if it’s just somebody for our teenagers to ignore.” That was our joke, even before they were teenagers. When they were still little, we were like, “We’ve got to have somebody around for them to ignore when they come home from school.”

And that’s sort of how I think of the potted plant, right? You’re there. You’re sharing space. They can ignore you if they want, but that’s still important.

I think a lot of parents of teens and tweens forget that because they think their kids don’t need them and don’t want them around, but they really do. The idea that teenagers don’t want you and don’t want to spend time with you is not true at all.

If you have a good relationship, their friends are going to be important and their peers are important, but they do still need you and want you. Part of how we can let them know that we’re there, unobtrusively, is just being in the same room. Think of yourself as a potted plant.

Credit goes to Lisa Damour, I think. I’m 99% sure, but we’ll double-check that. I think Lisa Damour is the one who coined that phrase, “Be a potted plant.”

Corey: I love that because both those suggestions, the sideways listening and the potted plant, are both about not being a demanding presence. I love that.

Sarah: Yeah. Unobtrusive.

I keep wanting to give so many tips. We could do this for hours and hours, but we’ll keep it to two more.

One thing that is really important to remember for connecting is: connect on their terms. Your kids are probably still in the age, or at least your younger one is probably still in the age, where they’re more demanding about wanting to show you something or tell you something. If you say, “Let me finish this thing first,” they’re going to come right back and want to show you their picture or whatever.

Teenagers don’t do that. So if you have a teenager and they want to tell you something, and you say, “I’ve got to finish this email first,” then you go back to them and they’ll be like, “Never mind.”

It’s really about connecting on their terms and on their timeline whenever possible. It might be impossible sometimes, but whenever you can, put down what you’re doing and connect on their terms.

I remember once my middle son, he was probably 12 or 13, was really into snowboarding videos—watching snowboarding stuff on YouTube or whatever. He had it set up on the TV, and he was like, “Mom, come and watch these snowboarding videos with me.”

That was really, honestly, the last thing I wanted to do: watch snowboarding videos. But I said, “Okay,” and I went and sat down on the couch. By half an hour later, he was snuggled up on me, Corey. He was holding my arm and had his head on my shoulder. My big, almost six-foot-tall 13-year-old was snuggled up watching the videos with me.

That never would have happened if I had just thought, “Do I want to watch the snowboarding videos?” So that’s something that’s really helpful.

Corey: That makes so much sense. I was talking about this with a client. They were saying that their child seems to be really into TV, but this client says they’re not a big TV watcher. Become one.

Sarah: Yeah.

Corey: Just sit down and, whatever it is that they’re watching, see if you can find a show that you can get really into with them. That’s the perfect way to connect, even if you’re not into that TV show. I was saying that I really notice that’s something you’ve done to connect with your teenage daughter. I was just telling you before we started about these shows.

Sarah: Yeah. I was just telling you before we started taping that we’re working our way through, we’re on the end of season five of Gossip Girl.

Corey: Ooh.

Sarah: I hate to even start to think about how many hours we’ve spent watching that show. I have a little bit of, “Okay, maybe I don’t want to figure out how many hours we’ve spent watching that show.”

But yeah, especially with my daughter, we’ve watched a lot of series together over the years, from Gilmore Girls to Sex Education. That’s definitely something that is, you know, finding that commonality is something that’s really great to do.

So yes, really trying to connect on their terms. That’s the last tip that we’re going to talk about.

I hope to be able to share more of this wisdom that I’ve had because honestly, my kids are so great. I know everybody thinks their kids are great, but I don’t think that people who raise their kids without peaceful parenting have the same kind of relationship that people do who raise them with peaceful parenting. Really, honestly, I think a lot of people are finding that if they didn’t raise them with peaceful parenting, maybe they don’t talk to them very much or see them very much.

I just want to give a shout-out to this kind of parenting for what kind of relationship it helps you build with your kids.

Corey: I think so too. It was interesting because I keep telling people that you have something to look forward to as they get older. Everyone just gets so sad and is constantly mourning each phase that they leave behind. I’m like, it’s totally normal to mourn that, but I think if you are peacefully parenting, you also can be excited about the future that you’re going to have, that this isn’t going to just end after 18 years.

I think this is a beautiful window of time where a lot of parents think it’s their time to check out, but it’s their time to really check in.

Sarah: Yeah. And there’s something on social media where people say, “You only have 18 summers.” But I think if you do peaceful parenting, you have way more than 18 summers.

My kids go on vacations with us. My 21- and 25-year-old will take a week off of work in the summer and go on vacation with us, or go visit my dad in Florida. Granted, it’s Florida, but still, it’s not a big fancy anything. They want to spend time with us.

I was just texting you the other day when I was sending you those videos of Asa and his bike race, and I think I said something like, “Honestly, how awesome my kids are as people and how much I enjoy them almost makes up for them growing up.” The fact that they’re cool, interesting grown-ups who actually give me advice and are “let’s meet for lunch” types of people almost makes up for them flying the nest.

Corey: It’s true. It does feel hard, so just embracing this precious time, I guess.

Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Well, again, we’ll put the link in the show notes if anyone wants to go deeper. Hopefully, you’ve got a great place to start with all of the things we talked about today, but if you want to go deeper and get some personal support inside the Peaceful Parenting with Teens course, we’ve got it linked in the show notes.

Let us know if you have any questions. And if you don’t have teens or tweens yet, keep all this stuff in your back pocket and remind yourself of it when your kids get older.

Thanks, Corey.

Corey: Thank you for having me. And I’ll put in the show notes that you did write a blog post about this that I think is really great too, so I’ll make sure that’s in the show notes for everyone.

Sarah: Awesome. Thanks, everyone.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

👉 PSST- Dealing with anxiety in your family? Or want to know what to do so it doesn’t become an issue? Before we get into the podcast, I want to make sure you know about the workshop I’m teaching How to Become an Anxiety-Resilient Family: What actually helps kids handle anxiety (and what unintentionally makes it worse) All the details are HERE

Back to the podcast— You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Martina Nova, author of Same Page Parenting, talks about co-parenting, postpartum mental health, conflict, invisible labor, gender roles, and how couples can stay connected while raising kids.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

We talk about:

00:00 Introduction to Martina Nova and Same Page Parenting
02:00 Why parenting conversations are about more than logistics
04:00 Common issues couples do not realize they need to discuss
06:00 Postpartum mental health for both parents
08:00 How parenting brings up our own childhood patterns and trauma
13:00 Why little kids can be so hard on relationships
16:00 Feeling touched out, disconnected, and like roommates
18:00 How to start rebuilding connection with your partner
20:00 Conflict styles and how to handle conflict better
23:00 Gender roles, invisible labor, and what kids learn from us
29:00 Why involving kids in home life matters
32:00 The deeper goal of the book: connection between co-parents
34:00 Where to find Martina and her work
35:00 Advice Martina would give her younger parent self

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Martina’s website
Martina’s Book Same Page Parenting
Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Evelyn & Bobbie bras

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the summer for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Martina Nova. She’s a clinical therapist and author of the new book Same Page Parenting: Align with Your Partner to Raise Happy, Confident, and Resilient Kids.

Martina wrote this book because she realized, through her own experience as a parent and through her work with couples, that it can be really hard to find ways to talk about, and as she puts it, get on the same page with your partner about many of the issues that come up for us as we raise kids. We discussed some of these common issues, like how you connect after kids, how you handle conflict, and why relationships after kids can be so hard.

We also discussed how we teach kids about these issues and others, such as gender roles, whether we mean to be teaching them or not. If you find this episode helpful, please share it with a friend.

If you’re a fan of the podcast, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast player app. Remember, if you want the podcast ad-free, you can support us on Substack for less than $10 a month. Not only do you get the podcast ad-free, you get access to Q and As with me and discounts on workshops.

You also get the satisfaction of knowing that you’re helping to support us as we change the world through peaceful parenting. We’ll put the link to support us on Substack right here in the show notes, or you can just search up my name and Substack and you’ll find us. Let’s go ahead and meet Martina.

Hi Martina, welcome to the podcast.

Martina: Hi Sarah. Thanks so much for having me.

Sarah: Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do, and then tell us about your new book.

Martina: Of course. My name is Martina. I am a therapist in Vancouver, BC. I’m also a mom of two little ones, and I’m a co-parent as well.

So I recently wrote a book called Same Page Parenting, which I started thinking about toward the end of my last pregnancy, and it kind of developed when my youngest was really little. But it’s a book that I wrote in order to help a lot of people have conversations about parenting that we don’t realize we need to have.

It’s not just about how many diapers are we gonna go through, who’s gonna wake up for night feedings, what kind of onesies should we buy, but things about how do we understand how our upbringing influences so many different categories of parenting, how we show up emotionally for our children, how society shapes our views on certain things, how our own neurodiversity might come into play when we’re trying to regulate ourselves and be there for our kids, or even some views about gender roles or other assumed expectations that we don’t even know would be helpful to talk about before or during parenthood.

Sarah: I’ve always said that there should be some sort of test, or some way to know how your partner will be as a parent and the things that will come up, because you really can’t know. A lot of stuff comes up after you have kids that you wouldn’t even have known to talk about, or how having children was gonna affect you and affect your relationship. So this, as far as I know, no one’s developed a test yet, but this is a good substitute.

Probably everyone listening to this already has kids because it’s a parenting podcast. But this would be a great baby shower gift or something for someone, for them to talk with their partner about all of these things before, when they have maybe a little bit more leisure and time to sort of figure out how they’re gonna handle things.

One thing I do like about your book—the way it’s structured, I’ll just tell people, is you have a topic and then you have a sort of a brainstorm of questions for each age of parenting. Like, if you’re pregnant, these are some questions you might think about. If you have preschoolers, or if you have middle schoolers, or if you have adult children. And so you kind of go through all the ages and how each of the topics that you’re talking about, the kind of questions that might come up around that.

So it’s—and you said in your introduction you can skip around, go to the chapter that you need right now. It’s a very interesting and different parenting book. It’s not like any other parenting book that I’ve ever seen, which is a good thing. I think it will be very helpful for people. I imagine you are getting good feedback.

Martina: Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate you saying that and talking about the format as well. Part of it is, as a clinical counselor, I work a lot with couples, and a lot of the time people come to therapy because they want the therapist to tell them what to do, or they want the books to tell them what to do.

But one of the things that I wanted to try to steer away from in the book is actually telling people exactly what to do. Instead of telling them, “This is how you should parent,” it’s, “Ask your co-parent, your partner, your grandparents, your community—whoever you’re gonna raise your kids with—what’s your idea about this? How do you wanna do it?” as opposed to me telling you exactly what to do. So that’s also what makes it different, for sure.

Sarah: Yeah. I think your next project, you should do some cards or something. Do a deck of cards.

Martina: A lot.

Sarah: Like the Fair Play—you mentioned Fair Play in your book. Eve Rodsky was on the podcast years ago, but she has that deck of cards that go along with her book. So you could put out cards and quick references for people—almost like a conversation starter.

Martina: I love it. Such a great idea. I’ll quote you if that ends up happening.

Sarah: Okay, good.

What are some of the things—I mean, this probably roughly correlates to your chapter topics—but what are some of the things that are maybe the most overlooked issues that come up when people have kids that sort of become sticking points or issues in their relationship that you’ve seen and that you write about?

Martina: Good question. The first thing that comes to my mind—because I’m a therapist and I heavily work with trauma, so I’m biased—is mental health.

A lot of the time, I know from personal experience and from a lot of clients I work with, things like baby blues or postpartum depression are handed to you in a pamphlet right after you’ve just given birth, and you’re told to look out for these signs. But you’re not being followed up with. Even midwifery care is about, “How are we physically doing? How is the baby doing? How are your stitches healing up?”

But postpartum mental health for both partners is so important. And so I think that’s a really overlooked part of it because it’s not only the hormonal fluctuations and changes; it’s the lifestyle changes, the isolation that you’re gonna experience. It could be trauma that comes up from your past about being somebody that someone has to depend on fully. Or it could be not getting support from your partner because your partner’s also struggling with their mental health, but nobody’s talking about it because we don’t know how to talk about it. We don’t know what to look out for.

So that’s, I think, one of the biggest chapters, is postpartum mental health for both—especially if we’re in a heteronormative partnership where, a lot of the time, the man in the relationship, it’s, “Well, we’re all good,” and the kind of conversations we have with our buddies are just very surface level. And therefore we don’t even get to talking about how are we really doing, what are we feeling, how needed, et cetera.

Sarah: Yeah. I think a lot of people aren’t aware that those sort of postpartum feelings can affect the dads as well as the moms. So that’s a good thing to be aware of and be talking about too—how everyone’s doing and their mental health.

You have the chapter on mental health, and then you also have a chapter on trauma-informed parenting. My partner and I, the other day, were talking about when we had kids. We were 30 when we had kids, and I sort of wish we had had them earlier. And he said, “I could have used more time, actually, to work on myself before having kids.” And I was like, “You know what? I think that there are certain things that just, no matter how old you are and how much work you’ve done, there are things that come out when you have kids that would never have come out before you had kids.”

I think some of that stuff, for us, it only comes up when we have kids, no matter how old we are when we have them. Why do you think that is? And is there anything that anyone can do to be better prepared for the things that do come up when you become a parent?

Martina: Such a good question. I think a few reasons. When we have kids, it challenges so many parts of who we are. It challenges not only, physiologically, biologically, how much sleep we get, how our schedules are shortened, the types of social connections we are now having or needing to cut. It also starts to challenge our own parenting of how we were parented as kids.

If we don’t do a lot of that reflection work beforehand—and unless you regularly go to therapy or read a lot of self-reflection books on early attachment experiences and things like that—we aren’t gonna really reflect and see, “Okay, well, why do I feel so irritated when my kid pushes away the food that I make for them, or is defiant against me, or doesn’t listen to what I say? Why is that in and of itself so infuriating?”

Unless we’ve dug in or asked some of the right questions beforehand, we are gonna go to our default, or how we were parented as kids from our parents.

I think, if you add on top of that neurodiversity as well—ADHD, I have it, and I’m quite certain one of my kids has it as well—we’re also already going to be stretched so thin. So some of this work as well, especially with so many late-diagnosed adults coming out with different types of neurodiversities, we’re like, “Okay, so this is why I’m so irritated when my kid does this, because I also have this within myself, and this is how it was treated by my parents. And it wasn’t treated with understanding or compassion or space or regulation or tools. It was treated with discipline and fear.”

So I think part of that is we don’t know what we don’t know until we’re faced with it and we feel distress and annoyance. But some of the things that we could definitely do is, if we can go to therapy, even if there’s nothing inherently wrong right now, we can go to therapy to help somebody understand the roadmap of our life.

What’s your relationship like with yourself? What’s your relationship like with your parents? How were you raised? Was there any emphasis on emotions and regulation? How does society systemically push us into gender roles and expectations and tell us what we should be doing with our bodies postpartum to look good, to feel good, to feel connected? So I think unless we go searching for some of this stuff, it’s not inherently in any of our baby prep courses or any pamphlets.

Sarah: I still think, though—and I think your answer supports my thesis—I still think that even if you’d done a lot of therapy, you’d done a lot of work, I don’t think anyone can be prepared for how they get triggered by their kids and by their own past and their own stories until they’re actually in that.

I’ve had people who I coach who are kindergarten teachers, and they’re like, “I’ve been working with little kids for 20 years and I’m really patient and great with kids, and I have never once felt the rage that I feel toward my kids, toward any of my most challenging students that I’ve had in 20 years of being a kindergarten teacher,” because I think it’s just different somehow. There’s something in our own kids that bring up all of those unresolved issues.

I guess I was curious if you thought that there’s any way you can resolve them beforehand, but your answer sort of tells me that probably not.

Martina: Not resolve them, but become more aware of them. I’m a therapist, I do my own therapy, I work with a lot of people, but this morning I was getting so agitated with both of my kids. I literally had to just close the bathroom and deep breathe and look at myself in the mirror and be like, “You are about to lose it, so take a deep breath because this is really hard right now.”

And I felt rage and I felt annoyance and I was sensory overloaded and there was defiance happening. I’m a therapist. I could, in theory, use all my tools in the present moment and just know how to validate and regulate. But no, I don’t know how to do that either as a therapist.

Sarah: We’re all human, even therapists.

Martina: Totally.

Sarah: You’ve got little kids still, and my husband and I often reflect—because I mentioned to you before we started that my kids are grown up—and we often reflect, “It’s amazing that we didn’t get divorced when our kids were little.” It was through sheer stubbornness, I think. Neither of us wanted to throw in the towel at the same time. We’re both really stubborn people, and I’m glad that we made it through to the other side.

I’ve noticed, just anecdotally, that having little kids is really hard on a relationship, no matter how many years people have been together or how good their relationship is going in. Why do you think that is? With your experience, or with your experience working with couples, why do you think it is so hard to make that transition and not even just the transition—I would say transition plus then life with small humans?

Martina: Every relationship is different before having kids. But what I found and noticed is, once we have kids, it’s less about, “What can we do for one another to make the other person happy?” or “How do we respond to each other’s bids for connection?” or “How do we plan the next fun thing that we’re going to do?” It’s not just, “How do we fuel our relationship?”

Especially in those early postpartum years, there’s so much strain that comes into, now we are needing a lot of things from one another, and we are asking for support. Sometimes the conversations that used to be about, “What are our dreams and hopes for our relationship?” or “What are we gonna do?” become, “Okay, I’m gonna need you to do this, this, and this.” So we become transactional. It becomes a lot harder.

And again, intentionality—unless we are very aware and we learn about some of these terms or learn about how kids do start to make an impact in our relationship—we are gonna fall into roles where we are gonna feel maybe more like roommates.Or we are gonna feel like we are now existing to serve our kids, as opposed to, who do we say hi to first that walks through the door?

Sarah: It’s so hard because, as I was reading your book, I realized that through trying to meet the emotional connection—physical and emotional connection—needs of my kids when they were growing up, it also met a lot of my emotional needs. Not in a weird, creepy way, but you spend a lot of time connecting with someone and cuddling with someone, and you can’t help but fill your own needs for connection and cuddling.

I think my husband probably felt left out a lot. He was a really good dad, but I think he felt left out from me. Not left out of his relationship with the kids, but I think he was probably like, “Hey, what happened to my wife that used to be so cuddly and sweet to me?” And I just didn’t feel like I had much left over after meeting the needs of three kids.

I hear you saying being intentional, maybe recognizing that that’s what’s going on. But is there anything else that you’ve seen successful couples do that make it through that time period?

Martina: Yes, Sarah. That’s so normal. In some spaces we call it being touched out. And touched out doesn’t always mean, “I’m so touched out, I can’t fathom another touch on my skin.” It is, “I’ve had my sensory needs met for the day, and now this feels like too much for me.”

Some of the things that would be helpful is, the essence of the book really is: the more conversations we can have about things like the invisible mental load, about how are we feeling intimately with one another—there’s a whole chapter on intimacy postpartum in the book as well that talks about how if sex was the main way that you connected before having kids, and now whether it’s for timing or hormonal or physical healing or for whatever reasons, that gets in the way afterwards—if sex is taken off the table for 1, 2, 3, however many months, or just reduces, we’re also not gonna feel close to our partner.

If we don’t have the words to share or have the questions to ask, like, “Hey, have you been feeling connected to me lately? How are you doing? What’s going on? Is there anything I can do for you that would make you feel really special? If you don’t wanna be touched, do you wanna just share one thing that we appreciate about each other today?” So it’s about being flexible and talking about why else am I overwhelmed at the end of the day? What do you have on your plate that I don’t? And therefore, how can I help you with that? So we’re still a team and we’re still talking about these things, as opposed to letting it just slowly drift away and waiting for the other person to bring something up.

Sarah: If someone’s listening to this and they feel like, “Oh, that’s me”—a lot of couples I work with have sort of turned into that teammates-roommates thing, and they don’t feel that connected to their partner anymore—do you have any suggestions for how to get back to a place where you’re feeling connected with your partner?

Martina: Good question. Two things I would say. Firstly, if someone listening to this is reflecting, “I’ve actually felt really disconnected from my partner lately,” instead of just right away saying to their partner that this is how they’re feeling, I would first say, have that person reflect on, “Well, what would connective feel like for you right now? What is it that you miss about your partner?”

Is it acts of service? Do you wish your partner would support you with more things? Is it certain types of physical activities? So I would probably get that person to first reflect on what do they feel like they’re missing.

Then, when we can come to our partners and frame it in a way not of, “You don’t touch me anymore. You don’t talk to me anymore”—not the “you”—but we keep it to the “I”: “I’ve been reflecting lately and I actually feel really lonely, and I miss you and I miss us.”

If our partner says, “Well, what can I do?” then you say, “Well, I think what would be really helpful is...” and then we can list the things, whether it’s maybe at nighttime we can ask each other a couple questions before we go to bed each night. Like, what was your favorite thing about today? What’s something you’re proud of for today? What do you look forward to tomorrow? What’s something you appreciate that I did today?

These small rituals of connection that the Gottmans talk about a lot can be helpful in that moment as well. So that’s what I would recommend.

Sarah: Nice.

One other thing—I mean, this is sort of the flip side of connection—is conflict. You do have a chapter in your book about conflict. I think when we have kids, it’s like everything feels like it’s in a pressure cooker and we don’t realize that maybe our conflict styles are a mismatch until we’ve already kind of gotten into it.

What are some ways that you find work for couples to handle conflict better?

Martina: I like that you brought up conflict style, because it really is a style. We don’t realize it, but we have a default setting on how we deal with conflict a lot of the time.

Part of the essence of the book as well is, if we can recognize, how do I usually approach conflict? Do I shut down? Is that my freeze response? And shut down doesn’t mean stonewalling, where I’m intentionally pushing you out. It’s, am I so overwhelmed with the conflict that I freeze up and my mind is blank and I actually can’t think? Or do I fawn? Do I people-please in conflict? Whereby maybe I’ll say, “Hey, could you help with the dishes more?” My partner shuts me down and I go, “Okay, never mind. It wasn’t even a big deal. I don’t need anything.”

So we just placate, we take over. Do we fight back immediately? Do we attack? Do we criticize? What do we usually do?

Firstly, I would say, if you’re listening to this and you’re trying to figure out, “Well, what is my conflict style? What do I usually do?”—do I do any of those responses?—you can only control your side of the conflict. So we can’t say, “Help teach your partner how to listen to you better or how to respond better.”

But if it’s, “I’m noticing that in conflict I tend to shut down,” I’m going to learn some regulation strategies, or I’m going to mention it to my partner in a time where we’re not in conflict. I’ll say, “Hey, I notice I shut down a lot when we have conflict. It’s not that I don’t care; I’m actually really overwhelmed. So in those moments, I’m gonna try my best to tell you, ‘Hey, I’m flooded right now and I need a minute,’ and I’m gonna go splash some cold water on my face or squeeze a stress ball or do some deep breaths. Just so you know, I’m working on this.”

Vice versa, if the other person also shuts down or gets defensive or reactive, there are a lot of scripts and a lot of ways we can approach conflict in a more structured way. But for now, it would be addressing what’s our nervous system response to the conflict that then makes us more present to have conversations that we can then repair afterwards.

Sarah: I love that.

Okay. You have a chapter on looking at gender roles. My husband and I had pretty—even though we’re both feminists—we had pretty traditional gender roles. He worked, I stayed home for the first 12 years with my kids. I was always worried that they weren’t gonna see me as important or competent as their dad, who was going out with a briefcase every day.

It was interesting because this came up with a couple that I coach, and the dad stays home and the mom works. He was talking about that the kids think that he doesn’t contribute—“Mom’s the one who makes the money,” and whatever. Their kids are older.

I thought, well, that’s really interesting. Maybe it’s not as much of a gender issue. It’s gender combined with capitalism, not just gender stuff, but capitalism too. Whoever makes the money is the one that’s more valuable. Sorry, I just started to go on a rant.

Anyhow, it was something that I grappled with, and something that I think a lot of people do grapple with. What are some suggestions that you have for—I guess I don’t think it is, I mean it can be a couple relationship issue—but what I’m interested in is your thoughts on how it affects our kids. I wanted them to grow up and think women can do anything men can do, and not like, moms should stay home and dads should work, if we’re talking about a heterosexual relationship. But if you’re not living that, what are some ways that you can still instill those kind of values?

And I guess you could touch on the money thing too. Whether your gender roles are traditional staying home and working, or whether one parent makes a lot more money and the kids think that parent is the more important parent. They may be related or not, but I would love you to talk about both, if you can.

Martina: Such a good question. I love that you bring up feminism.

First of all, let’s go with the first part about how do we instill diversity in gender roles and expectations when maybe we do follow a more traditional structure of what typically we would see.

First off, I think both parents have a part to play here because we can’t control what messages our kids are going to receive outside of our home. But we can control, as much as we try, what we show them on the inside. So what that might mean is not just showing what visible labor looks like in a home, such as dad’s coming home with a briefcase—if we’re talking about heteronormative partnerships—coming home with a briefcase, dad’s the one managing the finances, let’s say. We ask dad, “Can we buy this? Can we do this? Can we go here?” We start to maybe go deeper into how do we perpetuate those ideas.

As opposed to maybe we have rounds of appreciation at home, or we say, “Dad, thank you so much for going to work and for making money. It’s really helpful because it allows us to buy X, Y, Z. Mom, thank you so much for being here and taking care of our home. And look how much work it is to take care of a home.”

This could be led by the dad, where the dad talks about, “Here’s all the incredible things that your mom does for us. She cooks, and cooking isn’t just cooking. She goes through the fridge and looks at everything we have and sees what’s expired. What do I need to buy for this recipe? She goes to the store, she gets what you guys need.” If we’re talking really traditional gender norms here, she’s going to be the one who’s taking the time out of her day, making sure that nothing burns, being really attentive to the food, plating the food—breaking it down to see, whoa, this is actually a lot of work to even just get a meal on the table.

Sarah: So making the invisible labor visible, basically, as you’re talking about.

Martina: Exactly. And we can do this with our young kids as well, with our young boys. How do we instill what does actually invisible labor mean and teach them and say the invisible labor is often the labor in the home that is routinely done while you’re at school, while you’re sleeping, that you don’t see? Here’s what it takes to run a home. And do you know who usually does that in our home? This is the person who does that. Isn’t that a lot?

So we’re already showing our young kids so that when they’re partners one day, to not just see on the outside visibly what we’re noticing, but breaking down the invisibleness that they’re not there to witness.

Sarah: I think, too, Michaeleen Doucleff’s book Hunt, Gather, Parent—do you know that parenting book?

Martina: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: She was actually on the podcast too. One of the themes of her book is that we’ve gotten so far into adult world and kid world. Kid world is the science center and birthday parties and going to the playground, and the adult world is all the work that we have to do at home to get meals and laundry and cleaning and stuff. She really advocates for bringing the kids into the adult world more than people do typically. I’m completely paraphrasing her work.

But it strikes me that that’s one of the things that—I mean, she talks about it in the context of having kids be more helpful, that we can’t just do all the things and then expect them to wanna help us when they’re older, when they haven’t been involved all along. And it strikes me that that’s part of the answer too, in terms of when you want everybody’s job in the family to be seen more as equally important, is involving the kids in what the stay-at-home parent, or the person who’s carrying more of the domestic load, is doing. So the kids don’t see it as just something that happens when we’re napping, or when we’re at school, or when we’re sleeping.

Martina: Absolutely. Being really intentional about it.

I’ll see it in my practice as well, where I have grown men having such demand avoidance to doing anything related to laundry. Nine times out of ten, when we talk about growing up—what chores did you have in the home? Did you do your own laundry? Did you help around the home?—it’s no, we didn’t.

So it not only helps our kids see it, it helps them when they grow up and they’re older to fight against some of that demand avoidance of, “Don’t tell me what to do. I’ve never done this. I don’t understand it. It feels really big. It’s uncomfortable.” As opposed to, “This is just something that I’ve now been desensitized to doing, and I understand how to separate my laundry. I understand what kind of detergent to use on wool.” Things like that, that unless we show them, you’re a hundred percent right, or we intentionally do it when they’re sleeping or when they’re at school, they’re not even gonna know.

Sarah: I still don’t let anyone do my laundry. I just don’t trust that they’re gonna do it right. Whether it’s my kids or my partner, I like to do my own laundry. Putting it away, though—that is another thing altogether.

Was there anything that I didn’t ask you about that you were hoping I was gonna ask you, that you wanna share about what you learned writing this book, or what you think is really important for parents who are listening to know about?

Martina: Good question. I think the most important thing with the book—and the takeaway I’m hoping—is, every parenting book will say nobody’s perfect and no parenting strategy is perfect. But with this one specifically, the goal of the book isn’t that you’re going to read it and you’re gonna be so ready for every single challenge that comes ahead, even before you have kids.

It seems like it’s framed toward parenting and how to be the best parent to your kids, which it is. But a bigger part of the book is actually, how do I become more connected to my co-parent, to my partner, to my spouse? And you can use these questions to talk with your family—how you want your parents to show up for your kids even, which is a whole other can of worms.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martina: But I think that’s a big part of it: when we become parents, we can feel so lonely in our relationship when we are not asking each other questions. It can really disconnect us. And our kids are watching us on how we model connection and conflict and conversations.

So if there are some of these questions that you’re like, “I really liked how this conversation went,” why don’t we actually in front of the kids—if you have a conflict but only do the repair behind closed doors, your kids are never gonna see what repair is like. So let’s reenact that repair in front of the kids. You can use some of these questions and, if it’s age appropriate, ask them in front of your kids. They can see, “Huh, my parents are asking each other a lot of really cool questions. Maybe one day in my partnership we could ask each other some of these cool questions too, and we’re not just living alongside one another.”

Sarah: Love it. As I said, I think this would be just an awesome baby shower present, your book. A lot of people will ask me that, like, “My daughter’s having a baby. Do you know any parenting books I should give them?” And I’m like, well, you don’t really need a parenting book yet when you have a baby. But I think your book would be a great place to start for people to just have these conversations. So, well done.

Where’s the best place for people to go and find out more about you and what you do? We’ll put links in the show notes, and we’ll also put a link to your book in the show notes.

Martina: Absolutely. So I have an Instagram account, NovaCare Therapy. My website is novacaretherapy.ca. Both of those places have some free resources. I’ve curated a feminist postpartum support guide that’s free. There are links to purchasing Same Page Parenting, which could be through Amazon, Audible, Kindle, your local bookstore if it carries it, but also I think Barnes and Noble has it. So a lot of different resources are listed on those websites.

Sarah: Great.

A question that I’ll leave you with, which I ask all my guests, is—and for you, this will be interesting because you’re not that far away from your younger parent self. You’re still your younger parent self because your kids are little. But if you could go back in time to your parent self of four years ago, what advice would you give yourself?

Martina: I would probably say: learn more about nervous system regulation so you don’t feel like it’s your job to always manage the mood, but instead be present with your kids.

That was a big part of it for me. I always felt like I had to manage everybody to be okay, but it’s okay if we’re not okay and become more comfortable with that.

Sarah: Nice. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Martina: Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate it.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Corey and I explore the pressure of intensive parenting and the idea that “just because you can doesn’t mean you should.” We discuss burnout, productivity culture, and how letting go of unrealistic or unnecessary expectations can help us be the parents we truly want to be.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

And if you love the podcast, FREE ways to help us out:1- Rate and review the podcast in your podcast player app 2- “Like” this post by tapping the heart icon ♥️ 3- Share this with a friend. THANK YOU!

We talk about:

00:00 — Intensive parenting and unrealistic expectations: “Just because you can doesn’t mean you should”
03:00 — Cultural expectations and productivity mindset and the “perfect parent” standard
06:00 — How parents get overwhelmed: Sports, activities, food, and overscheduling
09:00 — Choosing what actually matters- “Does this spark joy?” and letting go of unnecessary tasks
13:00 — Doing less to feel better
15:00 — Productivity, burnout, and rest
17:00 — Letting go of control and accepting help and why independence isn’t everything
21:00 — Questioning parenting norms
25:00 — Why care and interdependence matter
30:00 — Corey’s injury story + the cost of overdoing it
34:00 — The importance of receiving care
36:00 — Rethinking what it means to be a “good parent”

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Rejecting Impossible Parenting Standards: What Disability Teaches Us About Care and Community with Jessica Slice: Episode 220
Ditch Special Time? Connecting with complex kids when connecting is hard: Episode 212
Episode 60: Hunt, Gather, Parent with Michaeleen Doucleff
Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Evelyn & Bobbie bras
Strong-Willed Kids Workshop

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the summer for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today, Corey and I discuss an idea we’ve been thinking about a lot lately and talking to each other about: intensive parenting, the choices we make, and the impossibly high standards we’re up against, and how these things affect our mental and physical health as parents and as humans.

After I interviewed Jessica Slice, disability activist and author of the book Unfit Parent, who talks about these things and what she’s learned from disability culture and being disabled herself, Corey captured all of these complicated ideas about productivity, care, and how we can sometimes drive ourselves too hard as: just because you can.

I’m going to say that again: just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

Listen in to our conversation about how this idea can inform the choices we make as parents and how we can make changes to make life feel easier and more connected and fun.

If you find this episode useful, please share it with a friend. That’s actually only one of the no-cost ways you can support the podcast. You can also take a minute to rate and review the Peaceful Parenting Podcast on your favorite podcast player app. Sharing with friends and rating and reviewing us helps us reach more parents, and we all know that parents need all the love and support they can get these days.

You can also support us by becoming a supporter on Substack. For the cost of a latte a month, you not only help us offset some of the costs of making this podcast, you can also get the podcast ad-free. Just search my name on Substack and you’ll find us.

As we near our five-year podcast anniversary, we really appreciate the support and the love of our listeners.

Here’s our conversation.

Sarah: Hey Corey, welcome back to the podcast.

Corey: Thanks for having me again.

Sarah: Do you remember last year when that report came out from the U.S. Surgeon General that said that parents are suffering from intensive parenting?

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: Yeah, and I think people consider peaceful parenting intensive parenting, right? And we do often say this kind of parenting is a lot of work. It requires a lot of us. But I wouldn’t say that it necessarily has to be intensive parenting in all aspects.

Corey: I agree so much. I had a lot of mixed feelings when that report came out.

Sarah: Yeah, me too. I felt like writing some sort of a defense of peaceful parenting after I heard that.

So let’s tease this apart a bit. We started talking about this after I interviewed Jessica Slice. If you all didn’t catch that, she is a disability activist, and she talked about disability culture and what it tells us about the impossible standards of parenting, and I guess the impossible standards of parenting in general, not just intensive parenting.

And you said it reminded you of one of your favorite quotes. So tell us your favorite quote, and that’s the anchor of our episode today.

Corey: One of my favorite quotes, though I’m not even sure if it’s technically a quote, is from one of my favorite movies, Jurassic Park. I recently actually read the book because I was talking so much about how I love the movie. The big theme is: just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

Now, when you and I were talking about this, honestly, we could have a really long conversation about the way they were talking about it in the book, which was maybe questioning science and where we want to take that, but it actually applies really well to parenting.

Sarah: Yeah. And the idea that Jessica Slice brought in, and we’re going to play a quote about this, is that there were things that she couldn’t do as a disabled parent, and she felt a lot of guilt about that.

So let’s just take a second and listen to that quote.

Jessica: Yeah. I do sometimes feel self-conscious when I see the way my peers parent, when I see them making these perfect little lunches and these divided-up lunch boxes or doing Elf on the Shelf, these kinds of versions of parenting that I just don’t have the energy or capacity to have as part of our lives.

And I can feel like, are my kids missing out from this type of parenting? And maybe in some ways they are. Nothing is simple. But I know I would have done those things. The version of me in my twenties would have done those things, but she would’ve also been a lot less patient. She would’ve had a lot less time for just sort of wasting hours and being together.

I have an ability to be present with my kids that I wouldn’t have had before.

Sarah: Okay, so one thing that’s interesting to me in that quote is that she talks about how she probably would have done all the things if she could have, like herself when she was in her twenties. She didn’t become disabled until she was in her late twenties, and she said the person she was in her twenties probably would’ve turned into the mom that was trying to be the perfect mom.

The example she used was the little bento box lunchboxes. And just to be fair, if that brings you joy, then that brings you joy, right? The bento box lunches. But if you’re doing it because you feel like you should do it, and you can do it, that doesn’t mean you should do it.

So what are your thoughts on what she was saying?

Corey: This really struck me because I think, gosh, I have made lunches that she would consider the little bento box ones, and not because it made me happy. I did feel like this is what I was supposed to be doing in order to be sending an appropriate lunch for my children because of that pressure.

That really, really stood out to me, and I couldn’t help but just feel the weight of all those pressures we are handed as parents. And because, for most of my parenting journey, I have been able-bodied and can do endless amounts, I often find myself doing way more than I should because I feel like that’s what I’m supposed to be doing.

And then when you take a step back and you try to question it, you just get crushed by the weight of those expectations of, well, what are the reasonable ones? What should I be doing? What is intensive parenting, and what is taking a step back?

Sarah: I think also there’s so much value in our culture, and this is one thing that Jessica talks about in her book and in the podcast, is how much of what we do is informed by the values of capitalism. If we don’t feel that we’re being productive, and what’s one more thing? When is it enough? When can you just sit down and rest? Or when do you think, I’ve got to make those bento box lunches?

Now I am done for the day, and I could go to sleep and get some rest, or I could read or watch a show with my partner or whatever, but I really should. So that’s a perfect example of I can, but should I? Where do you draw that line? How do you question yourself about what you should do, what you can do, and what you shouldn’t do, even if you could?

Corey: Yeah, it’s true. And I think every stage that I’ve been through in parenting, and honestly any stage of life, whether you’re a parent or not, you’re going to be hit by this list of conflicting advice that’s coming at you for what you should be doing.

I typed out a list of what I’m experiencing right now. I have a 7-year-old and a 10-year-old, and right now I’m getting this conflicting stuff coming at me, telling me what I should be doing. And it sounds something to the extent of: you should have your kids in sports because kids are on too many screens and not getting enough exercise, but don’t push them too hard because then they won’t love movement. Register them in music lessons or get them extra tutoring. They must have a second language, but not too much because after-school activities can drain your children and then they’re not getting enough free, unsupervised time. And don’t even get me started on food.

With the whole bento box thing, I ended up there because of all the conflicting advice about not letting them have too much of this, but needing to have that, and you don’t want to give them an eating disorder. It’s just all of this. How do we find that line of what we should be doing and what is too much?

Sarah: I think some of it is asking what actually brings joy. Sometimes it brings joy to you, and sometimes you’re willing to do it because it sparks joy in your child. So just looking at the sports thing: does it spark joy in your child to play hockey? Does it spark joy in you to be involved in that? Maybe this is one of those things you do for your kids because it sparks joy in them.

But the whole idea of “you should do it because it’s good for kids to be in sports,” yes, that’s true. It is good for kids to be in sports. But that’s a perfect thing of just because you can doesn’t mean you should. You’ve got to look at your own life and how it fits into your life and what your kids want to do and what their interests are.

Corey: That’s so true. And when you think about what we do when we’re coaching, almost always we have this discussion with our clients of, okay, what does your daily schedule look like? What does your week look like? And then we’re like, okay, now what can you take out?

We’re almost always telling them this message of: just because you can manage all this doesn’t mean you should. What of this can you take out so that your life does feel less intense? I think this is something naturally that we do end up spending a lot of time coaching, because everyone does end up finding that they can’t find that line for themselves.

Sarah: For sure. And there’s also the things that people think they need to do. One thing I hear parents talking about is arguments with their kids about putting their laundry away. You know, “I folded all their laundry and put it in their room, and all they have to do is put it in their drawer.” And my first thought is always, oh my gosh, why are you folding their laundry?

And I don’t mean that in the sense that they should be folding their own laundry. I mean, who cares if the laundry’s folded? Maybe that’s your own personal thing, that you love a neat drawer, and okay, do that for yourself. But is it worth the battle to get into that with your kid? Plus, when they go and look for things to wear, they’re just going to be rooting through the clothes anyway and throwing them on the floor and unfolding them.

Sometimes there are just these shortcuts that people feel really guilty about taking, and they think they’re not living up to the North American perfect family standard. Another good example of that is baths every night.

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: In the summer, maybe your kid needs a bath every day because they’ve got sunscreen and sand and they’re sweaty. But in the winter, at least where we live, it’s cold and kids don’t get that dirty. A bath a couple of nights a week is totally fine. But parents have this idea, well, shouldn’t I do the same thing every night because that’s part of the routine? Well, maybe that’s good. Maybe that works for you, or maybe you can let it go.

Corey: Yes. And I’ve heard you say this so often too about food. Just because you can make these amazing, crazy meals doesn’t mean you should be. It’s totally acceptable to be eating scrambled eggs and baby carrots every night.

Sarah: Yes, unless it sparks joy for you. And then you might want to do it. And even if it sparks joy sometimes, and you can do it, it doesn’t mean you should do it because it might make you too stressed.

There were things that I had to give up when my kids were small that I really liked doing, that did spark joy, and that I could have done, but the tradeoff was too great because it would’ve made me too tired. So that’s another thing. Sometimes there is something that sparks joy that you could do, but then you think about the tradeoff: how is this going to make me show up as a parent? Can I be the parent that I want to be?

An example I’m just thinking of now is I really wanted to homeschool my kids. Philosophically, that was super aligned for me, and I loved the idea of it in theory, of all of us learning together and doing all the things. But when it came down to it, I could have done it, but I decided not to do it because it wasn’t letting me show up as the kind of parent that I wanted to be. Being with my kids 24/7 was not good for me. I just thought, I shouldn’t do this because it is not making me show up as the kind of parent that I want to be.

Corey: Yeah, exactly. I felt the exact same way about homeschooling. Hats off to people who find ways to make it work for themselves. It truly does work for some families. We just have to look at our individual resources, literally and figuratively, and what that is going to look like in practice for our family. And just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

Sarah: Yes, and please check out our podcast that we did about how I decided to ditch special time.

Corey: Yeah.

Sarah: Because that’s also a really good example of this.

Corey: I agree.

Sarah: Of course I could do it. I just realized it wasn’t working for us, and instead I chose following what made my family feel joyful. We’ll put a link to all the episodes we mention in the show notes. So that’s a really good one if you want to hear practically how I followed what made my family feel joyful.

Corey: Yeah, I love that.

Sarah: So we talked about that sort of drive for productivity. The drive for productivity tries to convince us that if we can do something, we should do it—that more and more and more, like we’re always striving to get all the things done and check all the things off the to-do list.

One thing that Amanda Diekman talks about—and she’s also been on the podcast; she talks about low-demand parenting, and she had a podcast where she talked about something she learned from what she called her superwoman self. And I think that’s what we’re talking about, like the push, push, go, go, go. “I can do it, I can do it, I can do it.” But can you? And should you?

I’m going to read a quote from her. She says, “I’m newly trying to actively love on my amazing superwoman.” This is us appreciating, not beating ourselves up for that go-go-go part, but appreciating, you know, this has probably gotten me to where I am, and there’s a lot of life squeezed out of having those sorts of impulses to do more. But also it causes what she calls extreme exhaustion.

So she says: “Because it turns out that superwoman holds both my vast trying and my extreme exhaustion. She’s trying to protect me from how very tired I am by hyping me up. But when I make her feel safe and tell her that she can let go, she can slow down, I can see how very tired she is and how long she’s been hustling to keep me safe. She melts into my arms. She’s my most hardworking part, and it turns out she needs a rest too.”

Corey: While you were reading that, I got full-body goosebumps.

Sarah: Yeah, I love that. So really appreciating that part of us that wants to do more and get stuff done, not villainizing it, but recognizing the good in it and also holding that part of us and recognizing how exhausted it makes us too.

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: I think there are some things that do exhaust us that we don’t feel we can let go of. I remember I was talking to a client, and she was saying how she was feeling so exhausted and sort of resentful by her 4-year-old’s bedtime routine. She said, “First I help him get his pajamas on and I brush his teeth, and then I read him stories, and then I lie with him, and it’s just so exhausting.”

And I said, “Totally. That does sound exhausting. And you don’t have to do any of it.”

She was like, “What? What do you mean?” I said, “You don’t have to do any of that stuff. You could just let him fall asleep on the couch whenever he falls asleep, without his pajamas on and without brushing his teeth. And you don’t have to lie with him, and you don’t have to read him stories.”

And she was kind of like, “What are you saying?” And I said, “You don’t have to do any of it, but you’re choosing to do it because it’s important to you to do that nurturing in that bedtime routine.”

So I think that’s another thing to think about too, is that when there are things that we’re doing, there’s this sorting mechanism: what am I doing because I feel like I have to do it, when I really could let go of it? What am I doing because the superwoman is driving me to do it because I’m trying to attain this impossible standard of parenting? And what am I doing that might still be hard, but it’s just really important to me?

Maybe it doesn’t spark joy. Probably no one’s bedtime routine sparks joy, but maybe it’s just too important to let go of.

An example of that for me, and I was just reminded of it this morning, is with my daughter. As you know, Maxine is now in college and she doesn’t have to be at school every morning at nine the way she used to. But when she was still in school, she had to get up at seven and get out the door by 7:45 to get to school on time.

And I am not a morning person. I may have mentioned that before, but I really hate getting up early. Like, 7:00 a.m. is just way too early for me. But I got up every day of her high school years at 7:00 a.m., and I did with my sons as well.

And all of them were like, “Mom, you don’t need to get up. We can get out the door on our own.” But I felt like it was supportive to get up, and it was important to me to be supportive of them. If they had to get up early, I wanted to be supportive and get up early with them.

I make Maxine a cup of tea in the morning, and she pretty much gets her own lunch now, but I used to make lunch for them when they were in high school. I was doing it even though it felt intensive to get up early when I didn’t have to. But it felt important to me to show up and nurture like that.

Corey: Yeah, that makes so much sense. It’s interesting—as you were saying that too, I was thinking about how every day when all the kids are getting off the bus, my son used to throw his backpack on the ground. Then instead I started just asking him, “I’ll take it.”

And now, to this day, he would never throw it now because he’s not this tiny little kindergartner who can barely get himself back home again. But I still naturally love that moment of being able to be like, “Hand me your backpack.” I don’t know, something about it. I take it and I put it on my back, and I feel like I’m letting him know, you can let those weights go for the day.

There are these moments where I’m choosing to do that, and I can, and I’m happy to do it. It’s very different than that feeling of resentment as I’m trudging along.

Sarah: Yeah. It’s something you’re choosing to do because that nurturing of taking the load off of him, literally and figuratively, is important to you.

I think the theme we’re coming to with “just because you can doesn’t mean you should” is looking at what are the outside forces that are making me think that I should do something—cultural forces or capitalist forces or the parents-next-door forces—that are making you feel like you should do something, and really questioning, what is the reason? What’s the drive underneath this thing? Is this something that I believe in and something that I can get behind?

And sometimes there may be things that you look at and say, well, maybe I would drop this if it was just up to me, but it sparks joy in my child, or it’s a nurturing that I’m choosing to do, or it’s a way that I’m choosing to show up. Sometimes you might choose to do something because it does spark joy in your child, even if it doesn’t in you. That’s something where you have the resources to give them.

So just not taking everything at face value of what a good North American bedtime routine looks like or what the other people are doing. I remember when my kids were little and there was always, are you putting them in soccer? Are you putting them in tennis? And I was like, I’m not putting anyone in anything. Partly because they didn’t want to, but partly because I didn’t want to. I didn’t feel like going to all those practices when people weren’t begging me, “Please, please, please, can I join a soccer team?” I’m fine with not doing that stuff.

Corey: Yeah, that’s so true. This is all reminding me of—please go back and listen to one of my favorite podcast episodes you’ve ever done—with Michaeleen.

Sarah: Oh yeah, yeah.

Corey: Did I say her name properly? The Hunt, Gather, Parent one.

Sarah: Doucleff.

Corey: She’s the one I first learned about the idea of North American parents being weird.

Sarah: Right.

Corey: I can’t remember—do you remember what she meant by that?

Sarah: That weird is Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic. It’s sort of like we have all these ways of parenting that are very much the intensive parenting thing again.

One thing she talks about is having your weekend organized around kid activities, going to the special science center and birthday parties and all that. She really encourages parents to live their lives and involve their kids in their lives. So instead of going to the science center, you might go to Home Depot and your kid helps you get the things you need for the little mini bathroom renovation you’re doing, and then they work with you.

Which of course, in itself, is another way things can feel intensive, having a child helper. But she really talks a lot about the benefits of involving your child in your life. One benefit is that they turn out to be good helpers because you’ve let them help when they want to. But really, it’s about living your life as opposed to trying to arrange your life for your child.

Corey: Yes. And if I’m honest, I didn’t necessarily agree with everything I read in that book, but I think it might be one of the most influential parenting books I’ve ever read in that it really fundamentally informed how I show up. I just decided that I don’t have to do what everyone else is doing.

And I think that’s a big theme we’re saying here too. Look, if we’re peaceful parents, if we’re being honest, our listeners are already choosing to parent in a way that’s different than a lot of their society around them.

Sarah: That’s true.

Corey: So we’re basically saying, now take it a step further. Just keep questioning everything. You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to.

Sarah: Yeah, for sure. Question everything. Is that like a sixties slogan?

Corey: I don’t know, but I feel like I would’ve done really well living in the sixties.

Sarah: “Question everything.” Okay, so another thing that came up from reading Jessica’s book and the interview with her was how, if someone is disabled, they often automatically need a level of care that a non-disabled person—and I was going to say doesn’t need, but I’m going to change that to doesn’t think they need.

Yes, there is often physical care that a disabled person needs that a non-disabled person doesn’t need, if they have legs that can walk and so on. But the care part of caring for each other in community is something that Jessica talks about disability culture as being really good at, and that community care that we need to choose is in itself going against the sort of rabid individualism of capitalism that is encouraged around us.

I think that’s why so many parents are so uncomfortable with doing things for their kids, because our culture is so hyper-focused on individualism and independence. Like, why should you carry Big C’s backpack if he can carry it for himself? Aren’t you just coddling him, and he’ll never learn to be independent if you carry his backpack for him?

People have probably heard me tell this story before, but I had the same thing with Maxine when she was little, carrying her backpack. And now, when she’s 18, she won’t let me carry anything. We’ll be coming from getting groceries and coming from the car, and she’s carrying like five bags of groceries and I’m carrying nothing. I’m like, really? I can carry that. And she’s like, “No, Mom, I’ve got it. Let me carry that for you.”

My middle son, the other day, offered to carry my purse for me. I was like, “It’s okay. I can carry my purse.” He was like, “Mom, do you want me to carry that?” I’m like, “No, it’s okay. I can carry it.”

I got a little off the tangent there of care and hyper-individualism, but that’s one thing that Jessica said non-disabled parents can learn from disability community: that we all actually need care, no matter how much we try to convince ourselves that we don’t.

Corey: Yes. And okay, I have a story I really want to tell about this. It just happened recently. Keep in mind, I had been planning this podcast with you. I had listened to this. I knew all of this academically.

Last week—once again, we chose something that we really love. My son entered ski racing this year, and it has been the most joyful thing for everyone in our family. We’re like, wow, look at us in a big organized sport and loving it.

So it’s been wonderful. And last Sunday was the last one of the season. My son had been off the entire week with the flu. I hadn’t slept properly in about seven days. And he still was sick on Saturday, but by Sunday morning was full of beans and like, “I can go do my last race.”

This is the definition of just because you can doesn’t mean you should. It was also daylight savings time.

Sarah: Oh goodness.

Corey: So we lost an hour, or however it works. Daylight savings time should be banned as far as I’m concerned.

That morning, as we’re all so exhausted and struggling, my husband goes, “Did you know more accidents happen on this day than any other day in the year?”

Anyway, race days are chaotic. I had all these 7-year-olds all over the place. They were running out to go do their last run, and I realized in the chalet they’d left some garbage. I was like, I’m just going to clean up after them. I don’t want to leave this mess.

I pick it all up, walk over to the garbage can, and suddenly I’m on the ground. It was a huge scene. Everyone stood up. People gasped. People ran over to me. I threw garbage in the air, almost had it land in the garbage can, which would’ve been amazing.

It was just a total scene. I’m actually laughing because I didn’t realize anything serious had happened, but within a couple of minutes I realized that I was actually hurt.

So after my son’s next—I still waited for him to finish his race—we went home, and I realized by that evening I had to be taken to the emergency department because I could not walk.

Sarah: Oh my goodness. Before you get to the part you want to get to, do you think this all happened because you probably shouldn’t have gone to ski racing that morning?

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: Okay. So this is like a two-moral story. There are two morals to this story. The first moral is: just because you could go to ski racing with all those things that were happening doesn’t mean you should have gone, and maybe you wouldn’t have gotten hurt.

Corey: Yes. And then part two. I could have not gone because we have a wonderful community there, and they all would’ve helped all those little 7-year-olds if I hadn’t been there. So I should have also just let people help me.

After not sleeping for a week, and then at the emergency department, I could barely walk. I was limping everywhere, and every turn, someone was offering me a wheelchair, and I kept saying, “No. I’m fine. I’ve got this.”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Corey: By the time I had just been limping all over the place, a mom there with a teenager literally forced me into a wheelchair.

Sarah: Mm.

Corey: She was there with her sick child, and she was like, “You know what? You need this.” She got me in the chair and started pushing me around until a nurse noticed and was like, “Oh, I can do this.” The nurse had been offering all along. It wasn’t their fault, it was me. I would not accept help.

And then while I was there, I was texting with a friend, being like, “I’m just sitting here bawling by myself in the emergency room because I’m really hurt. I’m supposed to be going on a ski trip next week.” Spoiler alert: it’s next week. I’m not on a ski trip.

And she offered to come and be with me, and I told her, “No, I’m fine.” She offered to come pick me up at the end of the day. I told her, “No, I’m fine.” I just kept telling everyone I was fine, and I wasn’t. I could not accept anyone helping me.

Sarah: So you didn’t end up letting her come or letting her pick you up or anything?

Corey: No, nothing.

Sarah: Aw. And she told me afterwards that she was like, “Corey, this is a sign that you need to slow down and accept more help in your life.”

Well, and also ask for help. It’s really hard for a lot of us to ask for help. People listening have probably heard it said, we weren’t raised—people listening have probably heard it said that we didn’t evolve to raise children in the nuclear family. We evolved to raise children in a village, or at least in a small community of people—grandparents who could help, cousins, younger and older siblings helping with younger siblings.

This hyper-independence, small family, nobody else helping, is such a recipe for burnout and exhaustion and all of the physical and mental health problems that people have. I think those things really could be healed if we did what we’re talking about in this episode: asking for help, accepting help, and not doing everything just because you can.

Corey: Yes, and it’s interesting because we talk to people about self-care. Self-care is a big buzzword now, but I often think it gets turned into just another thing that we’re expected to do. Instead of what I think is at the heart of self-care, which means just being honest with yourself about capacity.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

There was some research done about problem-solving, and I forget what book I read this in, but when there’s a problem, people often want to add things on—do this, add this, add that. There actually was research done about this, about what people tend to do when there’s a problem.

What the research showed is that often the answer to a problem is to take something away or stop doing something. If anyone knows what that study is, shoot me an email, because I don’t know where I heard that. But actually, taking something away is often much more effective than adding something in.

Corey: Yes, that makes so much sense. Honestly, until I sat down this morning to write some notes for this podcast, I didn’t even realize what I was doing.

I couldn’t get over it. I’ve been going to physio now for a week, and I can walk right now, which is nice. But literally, she gave me a giant list of stuff, and I’m like, I will do all of this. I’m going to add all this in. I am going to be the best rehabbed-knee person that ever existed.

Then I realized that’s actually probably what got me into this jam.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think sometimes we like to be in control too, right? It makes us feel safe. It makes us feel it’s familiar. Especially if we grew up with that sort of push to be independent, not needing people is the safe alternative, or not letting people help.

Just on Sunday, two days ago, my middle son and his girlfriend were over for dinner, and I had made this fancy dinner because it was her birthday, and I really had been cooking for the whole day. At the end of the dinner, I had piled all the dishes in the sink, and my son was like, “Let me do the dishes.”

And I was like, “No, that’s okay. I’ll do them tomorrow.”

And he was like, “Mom, I’ll do the dishes before I go. You’ve been cooking all day.”

And I had to force myself to let him do the dishes, because I’m so used to “I’ve got it, I’ll do it, I can do everything.” And not necessarily in this case, because my kids are grown up and I could have done the dishes tomorrow or whatever, but I just noticed how uncomfortable it was in my body to let him do the dishes.

And also I was really proud of him for insisting. I was like, oh, he’s such a nice boy. He’s such a sweetheart. And he did the dishes, and he did a good job, and I was grateful.

Corey: Yeah.

Sarah: Well, any last thoughts about this “just because you can doesn’t mean you should”?

Corey: Go read Jurassic Park. It’s fascinating. It was a fascinating book. It made me think a lot about AI.

But no, when it comes to this, definitely check out the podcast we did with Jessica. This would be another one of the landmark podcasts that I think you’ve done where I just can’t stop thinking about it. I really think what we need to start doing is realizing we just can’t do this all on our own.

Do you have any last thoughts, Sarah?

Sarah: Well, I was just thinking, I want to leave people with—maybe we’ll leave them with a quote from the Jessica Slice podcast.

Again, if you haven’t heard it, go back and listen to it. We’ll put a link in the show notes. But we’ll let her close out with some thoughts about care.

I think it’s just a really nice thing to think about, that aspect of care and what it means to be a good parent, and what it means to think about all of the things that we’ve just talked about.

Corey: Absolutely. I think she’s the way to end this.

And just in case anyone’s wondering, this week my children all cared for me without me ever asking them to. So many times when I got myself too low, they were coming over and helping get me back up again. They were running up and down everywhere in the house to get me everything.

So just remember that you are modeling beautiful caregiving, and they’re going to just give it back to you, and they’re happy to give it back to you.

Sarah: Yeah. And I just also want to say that I think this quote we’re going to end on from Jessica talks about how the care things that we’ve talked about don’t have to mean that we are living up to these impossible standards or doing the intensive parenting that leads to burnout.

I think everything we’ve talked about in this episode are the antidotes to that burnout and intensive parenting and impossible standards. And I think the last piece of it is just giving yourself compassion for when that’s hard because you feel like people are judging you, or that people aren’t going to think you’re a good parent. So just giving yourself compassion around that.

Thanks, Corey. We’ll let Jessica close it out.

Jessica: I think for all parents there’s this sense that you should be able to provide what your kids need without assistance, and that there is a distinction between people who give care and people who need care. And that a mom, in particular, is a person who gives care and doesn’t need it.

And I think what disability forces to the surface, particularly for those who have some care needs like me, is: I give care and I need care, and that is part of my daily life. Needing care does not hinder my ability to be a valuable member of my family or a good mom.

I think it dispels that myth that you have to be one or the other. But I think if all parents could reject that binary of caregivers or care receivers, then it would mean that parenting didn’t feel as impossible or didn’t have such an impossible standard—that weakness were allowed, or dependence weren’t allowed, or interdependence.

I think it would just change how we think about parenting in general, because there’s this feeling, I believe, that particularly moms have to be all-powerful and limitless and perfect, and that it is a failure in the very definition of what it is to be a parent to start to need support and care.

Reimagine Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet Substack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Kahlila Robinson and Sarah Gerstenzang about self-regulation, co-regulation, repair, and what realistic emotional expectations look like for children ages five to eight. We discuss why parent self-regulation matters so much, how to support kids through big feelings, and practical strategies families can use together.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

And if you love the podcast, FREE ways to help us out: 1- Rate and review the podcast in your podcast player app 2- “Like” this post by tapping the heart icon ♥️ 3- Share this with a friend. THANK YOU!

We talk about:

00:00 — Meet Kahlila Robinson and Sarah Gerstenzang
03:00 — The book and self-regulation. What self-regulation is and why it starts with parents
06:00 — What’s realistic for kids (ages 5–8) and why big emotions are normal at this age
11:00 — Co-regulation: What it is and how parents support it
15:00 — Supporting kids through big feelings: Why feelings shouldn’t be rushed or shut down
20:00 — Revisiting hard moments and why conversations after the fact matter
23:00 — Repair: How and why to repair after conflict
29:00 — Practical tools and simple regulation strategies
35:00 — When strategies don’t work: Why practice and flexibility matter
38:00 — Where to find the guests
39:00 — Final reflections: Advice to their younger parenting selves

Resources mentioned in this episode:

The Self-Regulation Workbook for Ages 5-8
Kahlila’s website and IG @kahlilarobinson
Sarah G’s website
Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Evelyn & Bobbie bras
Strong-Willed Kids Workshop

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the summer for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guests are Kahlila Robinson and Sarah Gerstenzang, who wrote The Self-Regulation Handbook for Kids ages five through eight. Although their book is aimed at parents of kids these ages, the truth is that so much of what we discussed applies to parents of kids of all ages, toddlers to teens.

A lot of the themes we discuss today will be familiar to you as listeners because you’ve heard me talk a lot about self-regulation, co-regulation, and repair. Listen into our conversation to learn why these are important for us as parents and why they are so crucial for teaching kids self-regulation no matter what age they are.

Let’s meet Kahlila and Sarah.

Sarah R: Hi, Kahlila. Hi, Sarah. Welcome to the podcast.

Kahlila: Thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you for having us.

Sarah R: Yeah. We’re going to be talking about your book, The Self-Regulation Workbook for Children Ages Five to Eight. But before we dive in, maybe if you could each introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Kahlila: Sure. I’m Kahlila Robinson. I’m a licensed clinical psychologist based in New York City. I have a private practice where I see kids, families, and adults. I’m also a mom myself of two kids, and I’m very happy to be here talking about the book and sharing more about our process and some of the highlights from the book.

Sarah G.: Yeah. Thank you. So I’m Sarah Gerstenzang. I’m a licensed clinical social worker here in Brooklyn, New York. I also have a private practice, which focuses on adoptive families and complex developmental trauma. I’m also the board chair of the Adoptive and Foster Family Coalition of New York, and the parent of three children, two by birth and one who we adopted through foster care.

Sarah R: Welcome. Yesterday, when I was doing my preparation for this podcast, I came across an online copy of your book, Another Mother: Co-Parenting with the Foster Care System, and I started reading it, and I kept having to go, stop, stop, go back to the—it seems to—I kept it open on my laptop. I’m really looking forward to getting back to it. It seems really interesting. I grew up with some foster kids in my house when I was really young.

Okay, so back to the book that we are here to talk about. Maybe just tell us a little bit about your book and, just while we’re all on the same page, what’s your definition of self-regulation?

Kahlila: Our book is written for parents of kids age five through eight. So it’s called The Self-Regulation Workbook for Children, but it’s a slight misnomer. It’s more directly written for parents and focuses on the importance of parents being able to self-regulate so that they can be calm on behalf of their kids, and really teaching parents strategies for how to do that through really stormy times with their kids.

Because what we’ve seen, time and time again, is when parents are able to remain calm, for the most part, it benefits the child. It provides a model for the child. It supports a child’s own self-regulation. So there’s a lot in there in terms of parent guidance on how to support themselves when their child is having a hard time or when they’re having a hard time. And then there’s also a lot of strategies in the book for kids and parents to use together to support self-regulation in both of them.

So that’s the overview of the book.

Sarah R: Yeah, it’s a really helpful book. I notice that just in my practice of coaching parents, parents always come with this idea of, in short, “fix my kid,” right? So we kind of talk about that as the inroad, but then after a session or two, parents always say to me, “This isn’t even about my kid. This is about me.” And I think that’s—yeah. Nobody, though, wants to come into it thinking that. They always want to come into it thinking, “Fix my kid.”

Kahlila: Yeah.

Sarah G.: It’s kind of confusing for them also, because most parents parent the way that they’ve been parented, and they can’t really take that bird’s-eye view and see, often, how they are impacting their own child’s sense of safety and calm and capacity to be in charge of their own emotions. So yeah, it’s confusing.

Sarah R: So self-regulation—just give us a definition, what you think of as self-regulation, so we’re all on the same page.

Kahlila: Yeah.

Sarah G.: Throwing yourself.

Kahlila: Yes. In short, yeah. It’s the ability to identify feelings that you have within yourself in terms of how they come through. They could come through physically, they can come through as thoughts and as emotions. So, being able to identify those feelings and then find ways to contain them within yourself so that they don’t end up spilling out and creating more disruptive experiences for yourself or others. So: identifying, managing, and containing your own emotions.

Sarah R: Yeah. And that’s hard for kids, though. I guess that’s, you know—hence the book, right? It’s hard for kids, and it’s hard for adults too sometimes. I think that’s why you spent so much time on different—we’re going to get to that—but strategies for parents to use themselves for their own emotional self-regulation.

Before we talk about sort of what we’re working toward, what do you think typical self-regulation in kids looks like? Because what I find is that the parents I work with have higher expectations than kids are capable of, you know, sort of—we’ll talk about the under-eight set—in terms of what is a realistic expectation for how kids can manage their feelings?

Kahlila: Yeah. I think there can be a slight range, right, in terms of variability, as human beings. Five- through eight-year-olds are going to be expressing emotion. A lot of times it’s a full-body experience for them, right? So they’re sad, they’re mad—they’re going to feel the charge in their system, in their full physical system. It could come out in ways that are more physical than it would be for an adult. They actually feel the emotion physically in a way that I think is more powerful than adults.

They also, like we were saying earlier, don’t necessarily have that perspective on what’s a big deal, what’s not a big deal, what can be fixed, what can’t be fixed, how to solve certain problems. Things can feel much more overwhelming to kids because they don’t have that experience and perspective on how to solve problems, why certain things are certain ways, much less of an understanding around things like time and how things function and all of that. So a lot less information on how things run. And because of that, they can have bigger, stronger reactions to things than adults.

Sarah G.: And I would add to that, actually, that most children live in environments that are not very natural anymore. Kids five to eight—humans were meant to spend many, many hours, most of the day, outside in a natural environment, which is calming: walking, exercising, playing, learning from adults just by watching. So, number one, that would help their regulation. And if they did become dysregulated, I don’t know if you’ve ever been outside with a 6-year-old screaming, but it’s not nearly so terrible as it is with one in the grocery store.

So, yeah, I think that also contributes to the misalignment of expectations and capacity.

Sarah R: That makes sense. And I think it’s a tricky age too because, in my experience, both as a parent and a coach, I remember with all three of my kids, I think the hardest time for my husband with them was when they were around six. It was because they were so capable in so many other ways. They could learn how to play chess, they could talk to you about the stars, they could—you know, in some ways, intellectually, they’ve made a big leap and they seem so mature in some ways, but they also could have a meltdown where they’re a crying mess on the floor because they wanted to press the elevator button and you pressed it instead, right?

So there’s, I find, especially in this five- to eight-year-old set, a real asynchronicity between how developed they are in some areas and how emotional regulation is still super tricky for them in other areas. And I find that hard for parents. It does raise their expectations for how regulated it’s possible for their child to be in those difficult moments.

Sarah G.: Especially when HALT—hungry, angry, lonely, and tired—comes into play. I remember getting so annoyed at my husband. I had one child who’s super vulnerable to being hungry, and I’d be like, “What? You forgot the snack?” So they don’t have the capacity to overcome those things yet.

Sarah R: Yeah, and I love how you brought that acronym in, and you talked about the “L” as being—the “L” for an adult might be lonely, but for kids as seeking connection or feeling a lack of connection. I think that is really important to think about.

We’ve already talked a little bit about parental self-regulation. I want to just touch on that again, and also co-regulation. So self-regulation—when we can manage our own big feelings—can you talk about what co-regulation is? Listeners to this podcast hear me talk about it all the time, but because you do talk about that a lot in your book, if you could just talk about what co-regulation is, and also why parental self-regulation and co-regulation are so important in the context of kids’ self-regulation.

Kahlila: Yeah. So co-regulation happens in infancy, right? When we are an infant and we are hungry or sleepy or need soothing of some kind, ideally a calm, available, consistent parent will meet that need for us, and we have a way of calming our body down. So that’s when we first learn that a high-arousal, really active, really uncomfortable bodily state can actually shift. It can actually shift to something calmer. We figure that out. We learn that over time as infants, and that’s our first experience of co-regulation. It comes from outside of us, and then we learn that’s something that our bodies and minds can actually do.

Sarah R: So that’s like soothing a baby. That movement, holding them, making those calming noises. That’s something we do, I mean, a lot of us do that intuitively with babies. Maybe that’s not fair to say, but we’re—it’s easier for us, I think, to do it with an upset baby, a lot of the time, than it is with an upset five- to eight-year-old. Why do you think that is?

Kahlila: I think it has a lot to do with what you just said, Sarah, about the asynchronous development, which is typical, right? We’re supposed to be asynchronous at five through eight, but I think it’s that false sense of, like, “They’ve got it.” They have these capacities. They are in school. They’re on a sports team. They’re learning how to read. They’re making friends. They’re doing all these things that you’re amazed by and that show this type of emotional maturity and growth and development. So maybe there’s a false security there around, “Well, they can do it themselves.” And so it can be frustrating, right?

Sarah G.: Also, they can talk and babies can’t talk. There’s a great documentary called The Dark Matter of Love about some kids who are coming in from an orphanage into a family. Early in the film, there’s a lot of chaos, the kids acting out, but the dad can’t understand because they’re speaking in Russian. And you stay so calm—these kids are shouting—and they have the translation at the bottom of the film.

And I think when you have a five- to eight-year-old, they seem bratty sometimes because of what they’re saying and the way they’re saying it.

Sarah R: Mm-hmm.

Sarah G.: Whereas a baby—we’re biologically programmed, I think, to have that—it makes the back of your neck feel uncomfortable when you hear a shrieking infant, right? “Somebody pick that baby up.” But with a five-, six-, seven-, or eight-year-old, it’s more like, “What’s that kid sounding so bratty?” Obviously they need stuff too. They need to be co-regulated, but—

Sarah R: Yeah.

Sarah G.: That’s part of our natural need to, as Kahlila was saying—it’s totally natural—our need to get these kids in order so they can be functional adults someday. But they also need to learn.

Sarah R: I think that’s one of the reasons why every day I teach, “Kids are doing the best they can.” And I think it’s hard—it’s easy to remember that with a baby, but it’s harder to remember that with a five- to eight-year-old.

So what does co-regulation look like for a five- to eight-year-old with a parent? What would you do to co-regulate with a kiddo? Because that’s how they also learn self-regulation, right? Through co-regulating with us.

Kahlila: Yeah. So in our book, we talk about co-regulation starting with the ability to self-regulate as a parent. So if you notice yourself getting activated in relation to your kid, that’s fine. That happens. An awareness of that is really helpful—like, “I notice myself getting kind of frustrated right now,” or just a tightening of my chest right now, or a furrowed brow. Just being able to have some awareness of where you’re at, what your baseline is, is a good place to start so that then you can take care of yourself a little bit and keep yourself contained.

That can be saying something to yourself like, “Okay, here we go. This is not a big deal. This is something we can do.” Or, “My only goal right now is to keep calm myself. Let me see if I can do that.” Or, “This is temporary. We’ll get through this.” So a little bit of self-talk you can do with yourself if you notice yourself getting a little bit heated and wanting to co-regulate.

If you need something a little more than that in terms of self-regulation as a parent, you could do a little bit of deep breathing. If you practice breathing when you’re not upset, when you’re calm, it can be really helpful in those moments that are more intense. It can be a strategy that’s actually really effective if you take a couple nice deep breaths in.

And if you have more time and you can do something else to calm yourself down in the moment, you can do many, many other things. Sarah talks a lot about strategies to use in the kitchen, right? Like washing dishes. If you have a window in your kitchen, or a window somewhere, staring outside—something sensory-based. Smelling something calm. We like to talk about sticking your head in the freezer, getting that blast of cool air, chewing on a piece of ice. Anything that you can do if you notice yourself getting a little too agitated to then engage with your child.

Because if you’re trying to calm your child—think of a conversation you have with an adult when you’re upset, right? If you’re upset and you’re talking to an adult that’s annoyed with you for being upset, or that is upset themselves, that doesn’t tend to help calm you down. So you want to use that same model and idea for yourself: see if you can calm yourself down, make yourself feel as present and emotionally contained as possible on behalf of your child. So that’s kind of step one.

After that—Sarah, do you want to add in anything about co-regulating?

Sarah G.: Yeah. So step two would be really a variation on what we do with infants. It could be patting on the back: “Hey, what’s going on?” Or, “You need a minute? Do you want to go get your stuffy? Do you want to…” Just kind of calm down—what’s going on? But using that same body, as Kahlila said. You need to be in a calm place. No child’s going to calm down with their parent very agitated.

Then I think just using your words. I make a lot of eye contact with my child who had the hardest time—I actually had two kids who had a very hard time regulating—so I’d say, “Look at me. Look at me.” And I’d start deep breathing and look in their eyes. I wasn’t angry, just like, “Let’s calm down together.” Around those ages, that was super effective for them.

Sarah R: I love that. “Look at me” as a grounding technique, not as a “pay attention to me while I’m talking to you” sort of “look at me.”

Sarah G.: Yeah, no. It was like, “Let’s get back together here.”

Sarah R: Yeah.

Kahlila: I think you also want to frame it a little bit—maybe we’ll talk more about this—the idea of co-regulation is to prevent as much as you can and contain a more disruptive, explosive thing. But it’s okay for the child to feel upset about something, right? It’s not like you want to say, “Stop, let me co-regulate this child so they can stop being upset because this is so annoying to me.” Maybe this is a very legitimate, healthy emotional expression that they’re having, and you’re just there to contain it and guide them and help them ride that wave of emotion.

So I think that’s the other thing that gets a little tricky sometimes for parents. Co-regulation is not necessarily about stopping the child from feeling what they’re feeling and stopping the emotional expression. It’s more about containing it and supporting it so that it can actually flow out of the child, right? If there’s a legitimate hurt or upset feeling that the child’s feeling, you don’t want to co-regulate so that it goes away. You want to co-regulate so the child can actually have their full wave of feeling without it being super disruptive or overwhelming.

Sarah R: Yeah, that’s a great point. Sorry, Sarah, did you want to say something?

Sarah G.: I was just going to say what our point is—what I remember saying to my kids many times—is, “I want to hear what you have to say, but I can’t do that right now because of this.” There’s too much emotion going on.

Exactly what Kahlila is saying. And I think we can use our words to co-regulate too. “Wow, you’re so angry right now, and I’m really sorry you’re so angry. I want to hear what you have to say. Let’s take a few minutes.” So acknowledging what they’re feeling—your words really do matter. “I want to hear what you have to say, but I can’t in this situation that we’re in.”

Sarah R: Yeah, in Peaceful Parenting we call it welcoming feelings. You talk in the book about how that’s a really important part of kids learning self-regulation. Maybe you just mentioned it, but can you expand on that a little bit?

Kahlila: Yeah. I think it’s very important to understand that in order for kids to learn self-regulation, they actually have to feel the full extent of their feelings. Kids age five through eight pretty much don’t have a chance—they don’t have a choice—but to feel their feelings fully, for the most part. And as parents, we can unintentionally sometimes cut them off from the full extent and breadth of their feeling because it’s annoying or disruptive or we don’t want to deal with it.

In that way, they don’t necessarily get to learn how to fully contain it and understand it themselves. If they’re getting prematurely kind of cut off by a parent saying, “Stop,” or even just a parent that’s trying to use distraction—sometimes distraction is effective, but sometimes a parent that’s just like, “Look over here. Stop feeling what you’re feeling”—then it cuts off a little bit of learning for the child to say, “Oh, this is how deep the feeling goes. This is how long it lasts. Okay, this is what it starts to feel like when it starts to go down.”

They get more of an internal knowing and understanding around what the intensity of the feeling feels like. So if you cut that off prematurely, then they don’t get the full extent of that kind of learning.

Sarah R: Yeah. I think sometimes we don’t have the bandwidth for it as parents necessarily every single time they’re upset, but I always talk about thinking of that as an intention. Your intention is to always welcome the feelings, but sometimes you do have to distract because you’ve got to get out the door for work and you don’t have 15 minutes—or 45, or whatever—to sit with them while they go through the feelings. So I think it’s just, over time, our intention is to welcome feelings whenever possible.

Sarah G.: And I think one thing we talk about in the book that I think is just crucial is revisiting. I always say to parents, Saturday morning’s a perfect time. You have pancake breakfast, whatever, if you can. Then you say, “Hey, on Wednesday, when you got so upset and we did get to school, but I was wondering—why were you so angry?” And just revisiting that time so you can understand what happened and then make different plans.

I think that matters. It’s great if you can do it in the moment. That’s often very challenging. I have the same thought as you, Sarah. Time these days for parents is really, really rough. The pressures on them. But to actually go back and touch on that moment, that really matters.

Sarah R: I love what you say about—you don’t have to address it in the moment. You can address it later. I often tell parents, you don’t have to address it in the moment, and often it’s not even as effective because kids are not in their learning brains or their thinking brains, and they can’t learn when you’re trying to address whatever the situation is.

Another thing you talk about is repair, and that goes on the heels of what we were saying—addressing something that’s happened that’s difficult for you or for them or for both of you. Can you just talk a little bit about repair? Whether you’ve kind of messed up or you’ve had some conflict with your kids, why is it important? And what are some best practices around repair?

Kahlila: Yeah. I think this is probably one of the most essential places to go as a parent. It’s such an important parenting tool, actually.

And I think it can be foreign to a lot of parents, the idea of repairing with your child, because that wasn’t how you were raised. You didn’t have a mom or dad come to you after yelling or losing their temper and say, “Hey, you know what? I think I lost my cool.” So it’s kind of like, how do I do this? This doesn’t seem right, to apologize to your kid. There’s all this discomfort that parents can have around it.

But I think it’s so powerful, and one of the reasons it’s so powerful is because we really have to acknowledge that our children are some of our most important attachment relationships, right? There’s a huge importance to how we are feeling about ourselves depending on how our relationship is going with our kids. So repairing is not only healthy and good for the relationship and for the child, but it’s also healthy and important and good for the parent to feel like, “I’ve done the best I could in repairing a situation with a child.”

So we’ve all been there. We’ve lost our cool, overreacted, done something that we regret with our kids. And so when we talk about repair, the first thing that we suggest is just taking some moments of reflection for yourself and repairing with yourself. So that means whatever the shame or the guilt or embarrassment or sadness that you have around what happened, be with that. Be gentle with yourself. See if you can self-soothe a little bit. Parenting is a really hard job. I do the best that I can. Even good parents make mistakes. So really, again, that self-regulation around calming yourself down, trying to contain your emotions before you engage with your child.

So the first repair is really with yourself.

Then you want to be the, in terms of secure attachment, bigger, wiser model of things emotionally for your child. So you go to your child and you talk about it as simply and directly as you can. “Hey, I apologize for yelling. I actually think I overreacted. And I’m sorry that my voice got so loud.” And that’s pretty much it.

Then you see how receptive your child is to that. If they’re open to a hug or a high five, that’s another way to affirm the repair. And then you see what it’s like to move on. But you try to handle it pretty directly.

Again, in terms of the timing of things, it’s nice if you can handle it kind of the same day that it happened, shortly after the event happened. If that’s too hard for some reason, I think there’s no wrong time. There’s never too late to say, “Hey, I’ve been thinking about what happened to us last week, last month. It’s been on my mind, and I want to let you know that I apologize.”

Sarah G.: Yeah. And I think then on the other side of that is that children make mistakes as well, right? And that we can give them—some kids are very natural, “Oh, I’m sorry, Mommy,” and explain whatever happened. But at this age, it’s also unusual for them to do that. And so what one can do is give them an opportunity.

If they spilled, “Get the sponge.” Or say they had a big fit and the juice went everywhere—“Let’s get this cleaned up. You can help me by wiping up the floor.” Because we don’t want them to be stuck in that shame state of, “I’ve made this big mistake and my parent’s mad at me.” Even if you’re not yelling, you can be silently really angry. So you can just give them an opportunity to repair. If they’ve hurt another child, “Take this ice pack and go…” You can apologize by bringing over the ice pack, or drawing a picture, or something. I think it’s really helpful too to help them do it. It’s not like we just wait until they’re old enough to do it.

Sarah R: Mm-hmm. I always say repair helps the kid—when you invite them to make a repair, it helps them feel like a good person again.

And it’s an invitation because we’ve all heard that, “Say you’re sorry,” and then the kid’s just like, “Sorry,” and runs away. That’s not actually a repair. I always say, ask them, “What do you think you could do to help your brother feel better?” Which somehow is easier for kids, I think, than “Apologize” or “Tell them you’re sorry.”

But I love that you highlighted that it makes the person doing the repair feel better too.

And I just want to go back to what Kahlila said about doing your own repair with yourself first, because I think it’s really important that a parent making repair doesn’t turn into asking the child for forgiveness. That’s really what we have to do for ourselves first, because it’s not their job to say, “It’s okay, Mommy,” or whatever.

Someone in my life, who shall remain nameless, still has a hard time with doing repair because his mother did the “I’m seeking forgiveness” kind of repairs, and he just feels they’re empty because of that.

Kahlila: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah R: So you talk about tools. A lot of your book is really practical. You share a lot of self-regulation strategies for both parents and kids. So maybe you’ve mentioned a few already, but what’s your favorite strategy for parents from the book—one that you haven’t mentioned yet?

Kahlila: Yeah. I think my favorite strategy for parents—and this is kind of in the first half of the book, not in the strategies part, but you can think of it as a strategy—is actually playing with your kids most days when you can. It doesn’t have to be for a long time, but kids five through eight love to play, and it brings them so much joy and feels so good to them. I think it can be very regulating for kids, and I think it can be really supportive of the relationship.

Even with my older child, yesterday we had a day where it was parent-teacher conferences, he had a half day from school, and afterwards we did errands and it was kind of more relaxed and we had more time to hang out and chat. We just had an easier time with each other and enjoyed each other’s company. The evening routine was really smooth, and there was a lot of goodness between us and connection. The rapport was made even more solid between us.

I see that happen all the time when parents are able to devote even five minutes of undivided, no-screen, no-phone attention with their kid—playing with them, talking with them. It really builds this ease to the connection such that giving directives or following the routine just makes things smoother. So for me, an effective strategy is having a bit of play and fun connection time with your kid once a day, even if it’s only for five minutes. It really lubricates the whole system and makes things easier. It makes kids more motivated to keep that good feeling with you. So that’s one of my favorites.

Sarah R: Your book is really practical, and you do have strategies that parents can teach kids—things they can use in the moment. So what’s your favorite strategy? We’ll just call one out for the podcast here.

Sarah G.: Yeah, I would say, actually, taking a walk. Doing it with your child when—it’s a great way to regulate. Often once you’re calmer, you’re walking, you can repair. And it’s also something kids can really do themselves as they get older. It’s so simple. If things are really chaotic, it’s just like, let’s just start walking. Let’s walk around the—

Sarah R: I love that.

Sarah G.: Walk. Love that.

Sarah R: And that calls back to your “getting outside.” Everything feels better outside.

Sarah G.: Yes, exactly. And it’s funny—I just saw an article in the newspaper this morning about how now, having the phones that we have compared to not very long ago, landlines, people are actually spending so much more time on the phone. So if you can turn off that phone and take a walk—it’s really interrupting the parent-child relationship in a lot of ways. So we have to be very conscientious about doing that. So: a walk with no phone, I should say.

Sarah R: Yeah. I’m so glad that we didn’t have phones when my kids were little because I think about those hours and hours spent at the playground where, frankly, it can get a little bit boring sometimes. And there was nothing to do but interact with the other people or watch your kids. There were no phones to pull out and see what’s going on on Facebook or whatever.

Kahlila: Yeah. Can I have one more?

Sarah R: Oh, sorry. Yes.

Kahlila: Maybe for, you know, it’s a little harder for five-year-olds, but more for seven- or eight-year-olds: the idea of the child asking for a compromise when they are frustrated about something. You’re setting a limit and they’re not happy with the limit, and their response is frustration or anger.

To really help kids practice this as a strategy—it’s like a parent-child strategy—they can feel a lot more empowered when they say, “Okay, well this is the limit, but may I have a compromise?” And you can have a conversation with your parent that often gets you more into the thinking and speaking part of your brain versus the emotional part of your brain. You’re engaging and you’re trying to collaborate with your parent. That in itself calms things down a little bit. Again, it can be empowering for kids to say, “Wait a minute, I have a right to speak here and see if I can ask for a compromise here and work with my mom or dad and talk it through.”

So I really like that one too.

And then it’s not exactly a strategy, but we have this section in our book where we have, I think, about eight kids talking about a time that was hard for them and how they dealt with it emotionally. Kids seeing other kids deal with big emotions and learning from how other kids do it is actually really helpful too. I’ve seen kids really want to absorb that and use it for themselves when they see another kid using a breathing exercise or pretending to blow bubbles or doing something. A lot of kids are learning calming strategies at their school, and so a parent could also say, “Well, what have you been learning at school that helps with you feeling calm at school?” and have the child teach the parent what that strategy is—another nice way of integrating self-regulation practices for kids.

Sarah R: Yeah. I love that you brought up those calming strategies, like the ones that they’ve often learned at school these days, which is great—like blowing on a cup of hot chocolate, or pretending you’re doing that to do the deep breathing.

I love that your book is really more focused on the parents and what the parents can do in terms of self-regulation and co-regulation, because what I hear over and over from parents is, “Yeah, my kid can tell me five calm-down strategies that they’ve learned at school, but in the heat of the moment, they’re not interested in using it.”

So are there things that you suggest for parents when you have a kid who is resistant to those strategies that they know, maybe when they’re calm, they know they can use, but then when they’re upset they are refusing?

Sarah G.: Practice. They need to practice ahead of time. Then the parents have to catch them doing it, even a small amount. Like, “Oh, I saw you started the breathing, but then I guess you got so overwhelmed. That was amazing.” And so—but also, you know, the stop, drop, and roll that they do in schools for fire—you need to do the same thing with these strategies.

Sarah R: Mm-hmm.

Sarah G.: Practice ahead of time. Talk about, “This is going to be a really hard day for you. You’re so tired and we have these events, and what are you going to do when you’re feeling so overwhelmed? What do you think is going to work for you?” So forth.

Sarah R: Yeah, so prep ahead of time. And even afterwards, like, “Oh, that was so tough. You know, maybe next time we can try to do that calming strategy X that you learned at school when you’re feeling that way.” I think that probably reinforces some of the patterns too, just even talking about it later.

Kahlila: Yeah. And if you feel like there’s something that’s not working for your child and it—don’t use it, right? Think outside of the box. Try new things. Do some trial and error. Every kid is unique, and something that may work for one child may not work for another. So discover that over the years and kind of accept the reality of what works for your child and what doesn’t.

Some children may want a very tight bear hug. Other children might want to chew on a piece of gum or something like that, or take a walk. So be attuned to what is happening for your child and believe them when they say, “This doesn’t help.”

Sarah R: Yeah. Love that.

Thank you so much. This is really—I think your book is really great, and we’ll put a link to it in the show notes. Any place you want to send our listeners before we let you go? Any best place to learn more about you and what you do?

Kahlila: I have a website. It’s kahlilarobinsonphd.com. So that’s my website. I have an Instagram account with the same name, Kahlila Robinson PhD. So you can find a little bit more about me and my practice there. We’d be excited to get feedback from people on the book and see how they’re using it and what’s been helpful. So we are so open to hearing back from people.

Sarah R: Awesome. What about you, Sarah?

Sarah G.: Yeah, so anyone can find me at sarahgerstenzang.com. And I echo Kahlila’s request. If people find something useful in the workbook, we just love to—we’re proud of the work, and we’d love to know how it feels to actually use it.

Sarah R: Wonderful. We’ll put those links in the show notes.

Before I let you go, there’s a question that I ask every guest at the end of the podcast. So maybe, Kahlila, you go first, and then I’ll ask you to answer the same question, Sarah. Which is: if you could give some advice to your younger parent self—go back in time and give yourself advice—what advice would you give yourself?

Kahlila: I would probably say: enjoy it more. There’s something about the intensity and the demands of scheduling and routines and pressure and all that kind of stuff. See if you can not sweat the small stuff as much and be a little bit more relaxed about things and enjoy it more.

Sarah R: I love that. That’s so important.

Sarah G.: So we used to have very long dinner hours, and I was just thinking as we were talking about repair today: I should have done more repairs after some of those dinners didn’t go—sort of erupted. We had a nephew living with us for a while, so had four teenagers at a table. Anyway, lots of it was fabulous and wonderful, but also sometimes things happen. So yeah, I think, “Oh, I should have done more repairs after those dinners.”

Sarah R: Well, take your own advice. It’s never too late.

Kahlila: That’s right. That’s right.

Sarah R: Let me know.

Sarah G.: I’ve apologized for everything. Don’t worry.

Sarah R: Oh, good, good.

Well, thank you both so much for coming on. It was a pleasure to meet you, and thanks for all the support you’re giving parents out in the world.

Kahlila: Thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you for having us. It was so nice to be here today.

Sarah R: Thank you.

Sarah G.: I really—

Kahlila: Appreciate it.

Reimagine Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet Substack is a reader-supported publication. To support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

Strong-willed kids can be some of the most challenging — and the most incredible — kids to parent.

In this bonus mini-episode, Sarah and Corey talk about what makes strong-willed kids unique, why they can feel so hard to parent in everyday moments, and why their determination, honesty, and sense of justice are traits to be celebrated.

They also discuss how small shifts in how we communicate with strong-willed kids can dramatically reduce power struggles while preserving connection.

If you’re parenting a child who pushes back, refuses to be bossed around, and stands firmly in their beliefs, this conversation will help you see their strengths and learn how to work with their temperament instead of constantly fighting against it.

Sarah also shares details about her upcoming workshop on parenting strong-willed kids.

You can find the workshop at https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop

00:00 — Strong-willed kids: a blessing and a challengeWhy Sarah and Corey both love working with strong-willed kids.

01:00 — What makes strong-willed kids specialTheir sense of justice, independence, and willingness to question authority.

02:00 — Why strong-willed kids can make everyday parenting harderWhen kids won’t “just put their coat on.”

03:00 — A real-life example of strong-willed determinationSarah’s story about her niece tying her shoes while holding a fidget spinner.

05:00 — The nervous system reaction to being told what to doWhy strong-willed people resist being bossed around.

06:00 — The surprising realization Sarah’s son had at age 13Why he thought one parent was “better.”

07:00 — Power struggles and how to avoid themWhy connection matters so much with strong-willed kids.

08:00 — Workshop announcementParenting Strong-Willed Kids: Tools to Reduce Power Struggles Without Crushing Their Spirit.

Sarah: Hi, Corey.

Corey: Hey, Sarah.

Sarah: Let’s talk about strong-willed kids. Are your kids strong-willed?

Corey: Absolutely.

Sarah: Yeah, both. What about you?

Corey: Both of them. And yes—the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. I am extremely strong-willed.

Sarah: Me too. And my kids— all three of my kids are strong-willed. And me and my husband. You should see us play board games together.

It did make it harder to parent them. And I also love how I am, and I love how my kids were and are. What do you love about strong-willed kids?

Corey: I love so much about strong-willed kids. I actually think some of my favorite clients to work with are those who have strong-willed kids.

Sarah: For sure.

Corey: Because these kids are just… what I love about them is they’re going to change the world. They’re not going to just go along with the crowd. They’re not going to just do things because you said so. They’re going to really think deeply about things. They have this deep sense of right and wrong.

Sarah: Justice. Yeah.

Corey: Yes—justice guiding who they are and what they want to do in the world.

Sarah: Yeah. What I love about strong-willed kids is that they speak their truth. You know how they feel. They’re not afraid to speak their truth about what they like and what they don’t like.

Corey: Yeah. You always know where you stand with them. There’s no guesswork involved with a strong-willed kid.

Sarah: Yeah. And they’re so willing to stand up for what they believe in—even if it comes at a cost to them.

I love how they won’t be bossed around. Because they’re little and they’re still learning, sometimes they don’t realize it’s at their own expense.

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: I think it’s something to be admired. And also, as a parent, it makes it tough sometimes to work with them.

Corey: Absolutely. There have been so many times where I look at my kids, or I’m talking to clients, and we’re just like, “Why can’t they just go put their coat on now?”

We have these busy schedules we’re trying to get through, and sometimes when you have these little strong-willed kids, you feel like you can’t get through the schedule because they won’t just go do what you ask them to do.

Sarah: Yeah.

One time when I was teaching a workshop on strong-willed kids—and another one’s coming up; we’ll get to that—I looked up the dictionary definition of strong-willed. It was something like: tends to do what one wants, even if others advise against it.

And I love that.

It reminds me of something that happened recently. As you know, I was visiting my sister and my niece, who’s eight. I was helping get my niece ready for school. She was tying her shoes, and she had a fidget spinner in one hand while trying to tie them.

Of course, tying your shoes is already tricky when you’re still learning, and trying to do it with a fidget spinner makes it even harder.

I casually said, “Let me hold that.”

She said, “No.”

I started laughing, and she looked at me.

I said, “Have you ever heard the expression cut off your nose to spite your face?”

She said no.

I explained that it basically means making things harder for yourself just to prove a point. I told her, “I don’t care if you hold that fidget spinner while you tie your shoes, but it’s making life harder for you. I love that you don’t want to be bossed around, and I admit I kind of gave you an order to let me hold it. I love that you’re standing up for yourself and not letting anyone boss you around. But holding onto that fidget spinner while tying your shoes is making things harder for you.”

She didn’t say anything.

She finished tying her shoe with the fidget spinner still in her hand.

Then when she moved to the next shoe, she handed it to me and said, “Will you hold this?”

I said, “Sure.”

And she tied her shoe without the fidget spinner.

That’s such a good example of how strong-willed kids can be. If my husband tells me to do something I was already planning to do, I can feel my nervous system activate—like, He can’t tell me what to do.

But because I’m a grown-up with experience, I don’t shout “No!” when that happens.

So that little tweak can really make things easier for strong-willed kids—and for us.

Corey: Absolutely.

And we were saying off camera too—obviously you are also my boss, and you are the only person in my life who can tell me what to do, and I happily do it without that nervous system response.

So all those tweaks that you’ve taught me over the years—how you manage me—show that there really is a way to work with strong-willed people, whether it’s a little kid or a grown-up, to make them feel empowered when you’re working together.

Sarah: Totally.

My middle son is extremely strong-willed. He’s 21 now, but growing up he absolutely would cut off his nose to spite his face so he wouldn’t feel bossed around.

My husband tends to be a bit more traditional—still peaceful, but a little more direct and demanding.

One time when my son was about 13, he said, “Dad’s a better parent than you are.”

I said, “Really? Why do you say that?”

He said, “Because I always do what he tells me to do.”

I knew what he meant. My husband would say things like, “You have to do this,” and my son would comply.

So I asked him, “Have I ever asked you to do something that you didn’t do?”

He stopped and thought.

Then he said, “No.”

The difference was that he didn’t feel bossed around when I asked him to do something.

And he usually did follow my husband too because he felt connected to him—which is another really important thing with strong-willed kids: connection.

But it was funny watching his face as the realization landed. The ground shifted for him.

He realized, “I do what my mom asks too. I just don’t notice that she’s telling me what to do.”

I thought that was hilarious.

Corey: That shows you worked with him so effectively that he didn’t even notice directions were happening.

Sarah: Yeah, exactly.

Well, there are so many fun things to talk about with strong-willed kids. I love them so much.

But I also see parents every day—and I know you do too—who feel really stuck. They feel like they’re constantly battling and getting into power struggles.

That’s why I’m teaching a workshop on this.

It’s on Wednesday, March 18th at noon Eastern time. You can go to reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop to sign up.

If you have a strong-willed kiddo, this workshop is for you.

If you’re in our membership, it’s included, so don’t sign up separately.

It’s a live workshop on Zoom where we’ll talk about how to work with strong-willed kids so you can get through the day without feeling like you’re constantly fighting with them—while still preserving connection and getting the things done that need to get done.

If you can’t make it live, you’ll get the replay and a cheat sheet afterward.

If you’re listening to this on the podcast, we’ll put the link in the show notes.

If you’re seeing this on Instagram, the link is in my bio.

I hope to see everyone there.

Thanks, Corey.

Corey: Thank you.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

I am so excited I was able to interview a parenting thought leader I greatly admire. Lenore did not disappoint! So much wisdom, and so much fun! I think you’ll love this podcast episode.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Lenore Skenazy, author of “Free-Range Kids,” which grew into the Free-Range Kids movement. Now she is president of Let Grow, the national nonprofit that is making it easy, normal, and legal to give kids back independence. We talk about screens, anxiety, free play, and why childhood independence matters more than ever.

👉 Also- just announced- I’m teaching a workshop next week: “Parenting Strong-Willed Kids: Tools to Reduce Power Struggles without Crushing Their Spirit.” All the details HERE.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

And if you love the podcast, FREE ways to help us out: 1- Rate and review the podcast in your podcast player app 2- “Like” this post by tapping the heart icon ♥️ 3- Share this with a friend. THANK YOU!

We talk about:

00:00 — Introduction to Lenore Skenazy
03:00 — The disappearance of unstructured childhood and why kids need risk, boredom, and problem-solving
06:00 — How independence builds confidence
08:00 — The social pressure parents feel
09:00 — How communities can bring back free play
15:00 — What kids learn through unsupervised play
19:00 — Why kids prefer real-world play to screens
24:00 — How fear reshaped parenting
29:00 — The rise of tracking and constant surveillance
34:00 — Independence and mental health
37:00 — The Let Grow Experience
41:00 — Kids are not actually addicted to screens
42:00 — Bringing back the teenage babysitter
46:00 — How giving kids independence reduces the pressure of intensive parenting
49:00 — The value of “kid world”
50:00 — Lenore’s advice to her younger parent self

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Lenore’s Book Free Range Kids
Two free independence-building programs for schools
The free “Four Weeks to a Let Grow Kid” program
Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Evelyn & Bobbie bras
Strong-Willed Kids Workshop

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the summer for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Lenore Skenazy. You might know her as the author of the book Free-Range Kids and the founder of the movement of the same name. Now she’s president of Let Grow, the national nonprofit she co-founded with Peter Gray, Daniel Shuchman, and Jonathan Haidt. Their mission: making it easy, normal, and legal to give kids back some old-fashioned independence.

Lenore says our kids are smarter, safer, and stronger than our culture gives them credit for. If you’re worried about the ubiquitousness of screens in your child’s life and/or about the rise of childhood anxiety, you’re going to want to have a listen to this episode. Lenore and I discussed the importance of unstructured, unsupervised time in childhood, why it disappeared, how to bring it back, and what happens when we do or don’t.

She was so much fun to speak with, and her message is one that all parents need to hear and that all kids want them to hear.

I just loved this conversation with Lenore, and I know you will too. Okay. Let’s meet Lenore.

Sarah: Hi, Lenore. Welcome to the podcast.

Lenore: Thank you, Sarah. I am happy to be here, wherever here is.

Sarah: Well, I’m so excited to talk to you. I’ve followed your work since you were called the Worst Mom in America, back in the beginning of your Free-Range Kids days. I’m so excited about your new project that you’ve been working on. So maybe, if you could just introduce yourself and tell us who you are and what you do.

Lenore: Sure. I am Lenore Skenazy. I live in New York City. I have two grown kids—growing, grown, whatever you want to say. When are they done? I don’t know. But I wrote the book Free-Range Kids, and I am now president of Let Grow, which is the nonprofit that’s promoting childhood independence.

Sarah: I love it. I was recently—this, I promise, is going to make sense when I get back to it—but I recently listened to the memoir of Patti Smith, the artist and musician, and she talked a lot about her childhood growing up in the fifties, and how unsupervised and unstructured it was, and all of that. She had really great memories of playing in the woods, and the games that she would make up with her brothers and all of the neighborhood kids and the things that they would do. And I really wondered: is that kind of childhood why she became such a creative person and, you know, a successful person in that way? And it made me feel sad for that kind of childhood that’s lost to kids today.

So why don’t kids have that sort of unstructured, unsupervised play, like maybe you and I even grew up with? Because I know I did, for sure.

Lenore: I did, for sure, too. And everybody did. Some people ended up being Patti Smith, and most of us didn’t. Nonetheless, I’m sorry to see it evaporating too.

One of my recent analogies is that the rainforest was sort of disappearing, but we didn’t notice until we looked at pictures from before and after, from 1970 till now, and it’s like, oh my God, that’s the earth’s lungs, and look how small they’ve gotten. And I feel that same way about unsupervised time in childhood. It’s this natural resource. It’s something that all kids thrive on having, and we just keep shrinking it and replacing it with organized and supervised activities that we think are better, that we think, oh, now they’re learning chess, or they’ve made it to the travel lacrosse team—that has to be good. You’re up in Canada: made it to the travel hockey team. That’s gotta be good. More time in the luge—that’s wonderful, right?

But in fact, what kids really need, and what their whole innards are programmed to expect, is all sorts of time when they’re making up their own games, when they’re dealing with some fears and some squabbles with their friends as they figure out, what are we gonna do today? And, you know, is that tree gonna be too hard to climb? Let me try.

Without those everyday experiences of a little bit of fear, a little bit of risk, some exhilaration that nobody is there to give you credit for or a trophy for or a grade for, there’s something called the internal locus of control.

Internal locus of control is when you feel you can handle things. Things will come at you and you’ll deal, because you are confident and competent enough. An external locus of control is when you feel others are both manipulating you and taking care of you, that your fate is in someone else’s hands.

We’ve sort of swapped the internal locus of control of Patti Smith’s childhood and our childhoods for this external locus of control where somebody’s saying, okay, it’s three o’clock, I’m gonna pick you up, and then we get you to dance, and then we got Kumon, and then there’s homework, and then there’s dinnertime, and 20 minutes exactly of reading, because that’s how you’re gonna turn into a kid who loves reading. “Okay, start. Stop. I really love that. Really fell into that book.”

What I’m trying to say is that Mother Nature expected kids to get all of this give and take and excitement and confusion, and when we take it out, kids end up drooping because it’s like they haven’t gotten something very necessary for their development, sort of like food, except it’s independence and it’s free play. And we keep looking around saying, oh, it must be COVID that’s making kids so depressed. It must be phones that are making kids so anxious. And I think it’s just the fact that they have this very strange childhood, unlike what the system expects. And when you’re missing something foundational, you droop.

Sarah: Our mutual friend Ned Johnson, who’s a co-author of The Self-Driven Child—

Lenore: Love it.

Sarah: They talk a lot in that book about how we want our kids to be self-driven, but that self-drive and autonomy are correlated, in that when autonomy goes down, so does self-drive.

Lenore: They are the same thing! It’s so funny because we say we want self-driven kids, and then we drive them. Literally drive them to the Kumon and the Jazzercise.

Sarah: Yeah. It’s—I mean, I want to come back to, when kids have time on their own, they learn that they can figure it out. But just on a funny note about that self-driven and driving them places, it’s really hard to raise your kids this way—with unstructured, unsupervised time—when nobody else is doing it.

I remember, I live in a big city, and from the age of 12, when my kids were—I thought 12 was a good age for them to start getting around the city by themselves. They did. And of course, it wasn’t just like, okay, all of a sudden you’re going on the subway by yourself, but we worked up to it. So by the time they were 12, they were capable.

But I got so much judgment from other parents. My middle son played baseball, and he would get himself to practices and get himself home. And there were parents who would insist on giving him rides because they were concerned about him going on the subway by himself. And then I kind of had to give myself little reassurances, like, it’s okay, it’s okay if they’re judging you for having your kids be out and about by themselves. But how do you—maybe I’m getting ahead of myself, because we could talk about some ideas first—but when you are doing this on your own, say you’re letting your kids do things that you think are age-appropriate, developmentally appropriate, and then other people aren’t, what are some ways that parents can kind of give themselves some self-talk? What should I have told myself back then?

Lenore: Okay, I’m not going to talk about self-talk. I’m going to talk about changing the culture that you’re in so that you’re not the only one sending your kid to the park. And then also what Let Grow, the nonprofit I run, suggests in terms of giving kids back an easy way to give kids back some of this free play that we’re talking about.

First of all, if you want your kid to be playing outside, it’s no fun for them to play outside—whether people think you’re the worst mom or not—if they go outside to the park and, let’s see, I can keep going down the slide. That’s a lot of fun. You know, you need somebody to play tag with. You need somebody to talk to. You need somebody to swing next to or to push you.

So how do you get that? You talk to some of the other parents in the neighborhood and you say, let’s set up Free Play Fridays, right? I know everybody’s really busy, but a Friday afternoon before the weekend begins—how about from three to five, we all let our kids just play at the park together?

And I’ve heard about this working in many communities, including one 12-year-old who was so bored—I don’t know how he found out about it; I guess his mom must have known me or something—who went and put postcards in all the neighbors’ mailboxes, and he ended up with like 20 or 25 kids playing on Friday afternoons because he said, hey, let’s all meet, and parents, you don’t have to come. It’s not impossible to renormalize the idea of free play in a neighborhood.

And if you can’t get a bunch of kids coming together at the park, another idea somebody once sent to Let Grow, which I love—she called it a friendship club or friendship camp because she did it during summer. And it was simply this: in your neighborhood, there are probably some families that also would like to see their kids playing more, especially during the summer perhaps. And so what she did is she sort of made a pact with three or four other families that, look, my kid can knock on your kid’s door, your kids can knock on my kid’s door, and if my kid’s available, then that’s it. They’ll play. I won’t supervise them. I’ll know that they’re there. They can play outside, inside.

And that way you’ve sort of made it like the fifties. So now there’s kids going around the neighborhood knocking on each other’s doors, and that way you don’t have to worry about planning a play date, and you don’t have to have a phone involved. It’s just going door to door and finding these three or four friends who’s around.

People have started swearing by the landlines that you can buy now, or these pseudo-landlines. There’s one called Tin Can. And so kids can call up each other and set up a play date without falling into a phone and then never coming out again.

So those are all ways that you can sort of make free play happen again in your neighborhood. But what Let Grow recommends on top of all those is trying to get—we have something we call a Let Grow Play Club, but we might change the name for middle and high school because play sounds so babyish. And really what we’re talking about is the—

Sarah: Hang club. Call it the Hang Club.

Lenore: The Hanging Club. I was thinking of calling it the third—I can’t remember if it’s called a third space or a third place—but like when Starbucks started, everyone was excited because now there’s a third place. It’s not work and it’s not home. We can go and hang out.

So this would be having schools stay open for mixed-age, no-phones free play.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: And it solves so many problems. First of all, if you send kids home to play, we just discussed that oftentimes they won’t end up at the park because there’s nobody else at the park. So they’ll be back in their room on a phone, or you’re paying a lot of money and spending a lot of time driving them someplace else to be on an organized team, league, whatever. But at school, all the kids are already there, right? So it’s just a question of them staying a little longer.

If you’re in a very dangerous, scary neighborhood, you’re not sending them to the park. You’re just saying, you know, how about from three to five, four days a week, there could be a play club where there’s an adult supervising, but like a lifeguard.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: Right? So they’re not organizing games. They’re not solving the problems, the arguments. They’re just watching and they’re there in case of a shark or some other emergency.

And then the kids—and then you leave some stuff out for the kids. And actually, you’ll see this particular idea recommended in The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, who’s one of my co-founders of Let Grow. And one of the coolest things I found out, because I was helping him on the chapter for schools, was if you’re having a Let Grow Play Club after school, you should always have some really big sandbags there for the kids to play with. And do you know why?

Sarah: No.

Lenore: Take a guess. What’s the good of a sandbag?

Sarah: Like, how big are the sandbags you’re talking about?

Lenore: Like the size of a pillow.

Sarah: Okay.

Lenore: Like a filled pillow.

Sarah: For bases.

Lenore: Yeah, that’s something you could definitely use for bases.

Sarah: For some, any kind of markers and games.

Lenore: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And for building. And the sort of sneaky reason for having sandbags is that a kid can’t carry them by themself.

Sarah: Oh, it involves cooperation.

Lenore: It automatically creates cooperation, which is what playing in the woods does, which is what organizing a game of baseball does. And you want kids to have these easy ways of interacting and getting to know each other, the non-awkward ways.

Sarah: Right.

Lenore: And saying, hey, help me with this. Or like, look, we gotta bring this over here, it’s third base. Yeah, you’re doing something together and you’re automatically starting a relationship without any kind of like, “Will you be my friend?” Right. Or “I’m so lonely, Lily.” It’s not that.

And that’s what play has always done. Who are your friends? As Peter Gray, who’s another one of my Let Grow co-founders and a professor of psychology, says: when you’re a kid, a friend is defined as a kid you play with.

Sarah: Right.

Lenore: You know, “I’m going to Julie’s house.” What are we gonna do? “We’re gonna play.” Okay. I’ll see you at seven.

And so you want to have a bunch of stuff that—the technical term, I guess it’s not that technical, is loose parts.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: You want to have loose parts out there, and kids can bring them from home. And I’m talking remote-control cars and old suitcases and fabric and some rope or PVC pipe. Kids just figure out what to do with it. And so they’re being creative, and they’re explaining, “No, we’re gonna build it this way.” That’s communication. And then they’re cooperating.

“We’re gonna drag this bag over here.” And all the social-emotional skills that kids are getting now in worksheets on the rug during their social-emotional-skills-building time, you know, or little cards that say, “Remember, you’re not alone. Remember, people like you. You are good. You’re kind.” It’s like all this sort of fallacious confidence and connection happens automatically through play.

You play with the kids you like, and frankly, if you’re a total jerk and nobody wants to play with you, you start recognizing that and adjusting.

We’ve seen this in a play club. My favorite story about a play club was a kid who—everybody was jumping into a leaf pile. It was down in South Carolina. And they’d jump in the middle, and it’d be really fun, or they’d do a cartwheel into the middle, whatever, and then they’d leave and then it’d be the next kids. And they were organizing themselves.

And then one kid jumped into the middle of the leaf pile and would not budge. He was just there. And everyone’s like, “Hey, get out of the way. Hey, you’re in the way. Move already. Hey, it’s my turn.” And he was just like, “I can’t hear you.”

And so finally the kids said, “Well, let’s just jump around him. There’s enough leaves.” And so they started doing that, and then the kid—the middle-of-the-leaf-pile kid—walked off.

And what’s wonderful about this is that the kids saw a problem, tried a solution—move, move, move—that didn’t work, and then came up with another solution: ignore him.

And had there been an adult who was jumping in to save them, to save the leaf-pile day, first of all, the kid would’ve gotten all the attention, because the other kids would just be waiting while the teacher says, “Now, you know, Aiden, we don’t sit in the middle of a leaf pile. There are other children. You see them there.” And then the kids—that would’ve been completely nothing. They just would’ve been waiting for an adult, as always, to solve the problem.

And they wouldn’t have been creative and they wouldn’t have been working together to solve a problem. But instead they did. And so that’s why you need free play, so that all those skills come into play. And by the way, it’s fun and it’s what kids should be doing.

But if you have a school starting a play club, all our materials are free, and they basically explain the philosophy behind why loose-parts free play is good and why it’s great to have different ages together because, you know, the older kids sort of are nicer to the younger kids.

Peter Gray always says, if you have seven-year-olds trying to play a card game together, it’s a disaster. It cannot work. But if you have nine-year-olds with the seven-year-olds, the nine-year-olds are so cool that the seven-year-olds want to be like them. And then the nine-year-olds are saying, like, hold up your hand. We can see your cards. Don’t put the—you know, don’t put an ace down. And they take the ace and they put it back in the kid’s hand. You don’t throw the ace down until the end.

And so it sounds like maybe some yelling or whining or complaining, and yet it’s education. And the older kids are learning how to explain a game, and the younger kids are learning how to be the older kids. And we keep segregating kids by age so that it’s only seven-year-olds against seven-year-olds in baseball or soccer or hockey, and all you know is who’s the fastest and who’s the best.

Sarah: I love it. I was watching some of the videos on your website, and there was one, a free play after school video, and the loose parts in this video were cardboard.

Lenore: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And it actually—it’s going to make me cry—it moved me to tears, watching these kids. And there was this one scene of all these little kids, the game was two kids hold up the cardboard and another kid runs through it. And there was this clip of them working out whose turn it was and who was going to go next. And then they’re just doing the activity, and all the other things they were doing with the cardboard. It was so—they were all so immersed and at times joyful, and it was just so great to see, like, so wonderful to see. I really think it’s so great what you are doing.

And I think, you know, a lot of Jonathan Haidt’s book was about screens, and everyone’s worried about screens, and I think you talk about this too: the reason it becomes this vicious cycle, like a chicken and egg, is kids don’t have anything to do, parents don’t have anything for them to do, so they are on screens. And then they’re on screens and then they don’t get out and play. So it sounds like part of the answer here is doing the—getting the play going first.

Lenore: Yeah. First of all, I love that video too. And what I love about that game they’re playing with the two kids holding a piece of cardboard, and they’re all arguing like, who’s gonna go first to punch the cardboard? Which doesn’t seem like the funnest game in the world, but they were so eager. It’s like, “You’ll go first, then I’ll go.” “No, no, he’ll go and then I’ll go and then you’ll go.” It is just such a beautiful thing to see. And it’s all the different ages, it’s all the different races, and it all seems to be boys because who’s stupid enough to—

Sarah: The girls don’t want to punch cardboard. My kid one time was telling me about her two friends who were boys who were doing this thing as they were riding their bikes down the street, and they were spitting up into the air ahead of themselves and then trying to ride through the spit. And she was like, “Only boys would do that.”

Lenore: That is just weird.

Sarah: It works. It’s so much less waste in a milk bag.

Lenore: It sounds really smart.

Sarah: So anyways—

Lenore: No, no, I did grow up here, but we also don’t have milk cartons. We have milk bags. That sounds really smart.

Sarah: It works. It’s so much less waste in a milk bag. Everybody in—at least in Eastern Canada—we have like a plastic pitcher that’s got an open top, and the milk comes in a big bag with three smaller, like liter-and-a-half bags in it. Just picture a bag of milk.

Lenore: A bag of bags.

Sarah: You put your bag of milk in the pitcher and you snip a little hole in the corner. And then you pour it from the pitcher in the bag, and it’s far less waste than four gallons.

Lenore: Be Canadians. What can I say? We’ve got it all.

Sarah: So anyways, no, no, I did grow up in the US though, and we did have the pictures on the milk cartons.

Lenore: Right. So those pictures on the milk cartons did a number on us because, first of all, they said, like, “Have you seen me?” or “Missing,” and they never had a little asterisk that says, “I was taken in a custodial dispute between my divorcing parents.”

Sarah: Right.

Lenore: Because that was the vast majority of the kids, or they were runaways. But it felt like, since nobody explained this, that these were all children who were kidnapped by strangers off the street while riding their bike or walking home.

That’s also the era we got cable television, which gave us the 24-hour news cycle, which had never been part of anybody’s life until then.

And then there was when Adam Walsh was taken—it was a horrible story—but his dad was John Walsh, and he started America’s Most Wanted, and he went around the country and in fact ended up testifying in front of Congress that 50,000 children are kidnapped and murdered every year, which was off by a factor of about 50,000. Because it’s extraordinarily rare.

And so it just started seeming like, you know, you open the door and you let your kid outside and you’ll never see them again. Ann Landers or Dear Abby—or one of the advice columnists of the era—said that you better take, you know, try to write down or take a picture of your child before they leave for school, so you know what they’re wearing, because you won’t be able to give the information.

There was just a lot of panic about something that is extraordinarily rare.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: And so it just became the norm to not let them out of our sight. And then a couple of other things happened in tandem with this. One is, of course, we’re in a litigious society, and so schools thinking like, well, what if something bad does happen, even though it probably won’t? We don’t want to be sued. Let’s just say that no kid can get off the bus, or that no kid can play on the monkey bars, or that we can’t have any swings.

And then you have experts, and experts are always trying to tell you something really scary that they’re an expert in, that if you don’t do this, you know, something terrible will happen. Parents magazine would come—like, you gotta give it to those editors at Parents magazine—they had to come up with something terrifying every month.

Sarah: Well, it sells, right? And headlines, you know, clicks today and headlines.

Lenore: Right. And then there’s a marketplace, and the marketplace is always trying to figure out something that can sell, and sell a lot. And the best thing you can do is sell parents a product that’s going to save their kid from something horrible.

I was just reading a study that was done about tracking devices, and I think at this point it was like 86% of parents track their kids. And, you know, some tell them that they’re being tracked and some don’t.

There’s the Gizmo watch. If you buy it for your kid, it’s a tracking device and a phone. And if they don’t pick up the phone, what happens?

Sarah: 911.

Lenore: No, that’d be really terrible. I mean, I can—

Sarah: I can picture it.

Lenore: I could picture it too, but right now what happens is that it turns into a bugging device.

Sarah: Oh gosh.

Lenore: So that you can listen to see, is your kid like, “No, get away from me, stranger”? Or—you know—but it also allows parents to hear, like, “I hate my sister,” or “I’m mad at my teacher,” or “I ate a candy bar.” I mean, it just gives kids no life outside of constant surveillance, which is what we used to do with prisoners on work release. They had this kind of monitoring, right? They had an ankle monitor and you could see if the guy was going to work and then coming right back home. And even the prisoners knew that this was better than prison. Beats prison, right? But it’s not freedom.

Sarah: Yeah.

Lenore: What does a lack of freedom do to kids? I think the biggest thing is that it tells them two things. One is that the world is so scary and bad that you better not just be out there on your own, and also that your parents don’t think you can handle being out there on your own.

And I’ve been trying to grapple with this for a while. I was talking to these teenagers, and it was about eight years ago at this point, because at that point not everybody was tracked yet. But one of the kids who was tracked said to me something really strange. He said, “I just wish that I”—he was over 16—“I wish I’d get pulled over for speeding.”

I was like, that’s a very strange wish. Why?

And he said, “Because I would have to deal with it myself.”

He was longing—I mean, I think there’s this human longing to see what you’re made of and to prove to yourself and to the world that you can handle something on your own.

And with the ability to always be tracked by your parents and always press a button and be connected to your parents, your parents are on call for you in a way that was never possible until just now.

And it’s nice to help. You know, you want to help your kids. So if they call—my kids to this day, they’re in their twenties—if they call, they’re having a problem, I will help. But the instantaneousness of it means that without trying to figure out an answer, solve something on their own, kids can reach you and then you solve it. So you don’t know what they’re capable of and they don’t know what they’re capable of.

And so then you answer the next time, and the next time, and the next time, and you track them. And nobody ever gets the peace of mind. You know, the tracking devices say they’ll provide peace of mind, but they provide the opposite because, yes, it’s nice to know they’re gonna be home in time for dinner, but you also don’t know that, like if they were on a trip or even walking home or riding their bike and their chain fell off their bike—it’s a point of pride if you make it home with a broken bike or if you fix the chain, and it’s not a point of pride if you call your dad and say, can you come help me?

The dad feels proud, but he thinks, oh, my little girl can’t do anything yet. And the little girl thinks, oh, my dad—I can’t do anything yet.

So I think it changes a lot about the parent-child relationship, and it changes the child’s relationship to themselves because it’s not just themself. It’s themself plus this squad.

Sarah: I think it also reduces community. The example that you just gave—I could picture if that happened to one of my kids and they couldn’t figure out how to put the chain back on, they might stop somebody and say, can you help me with this? Or, you know, go into a garage and ask for a screwdriver from the mechanic to put their—you know—and just their interconnectedness that we all have with each other. I think if there’s just a direct line between parent and child, we lose out on that sense of community.

Lenore: That is so true. And it reminds me of a piece I haven’t run yet about a mom whose kid was sort of radicalized online and ended up in a locked ward for a little while, and then came out and gradually got better through doing music and through having friends.

And then he called her one day and he said, “Mom, the greatest thing—” Oh no, he came home and he said, “The greatest thing just happened to me.” And she’s like, what? Because she’s so grateful that he’s doing much, much better now. He’s in high school.

And he said, “I got a flat tire on my bike.”

She’s like, okay, that sounds just great. What do you mean?

And he had done exactly what you just said. That’s why it reminded me. He had found a bike shop and he’d gone in there and asked for help, and they fixed it. And he got back on his bike, and they didn’t even charge him because he is a nice young man and they were helping, and everybody felt great.

But for him it was so important to solve a problem, a real-world problem, on his own, that he regarded it as one of the highlights of his life to date.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: And his mom, in talking to me about the dire darkness that he’d been in and climbing back out to light, felt that this was one of the things that was crucial.

And I know that we keep racing to help our kids, and we’re doing this out of love and wanting to help them, to provide for them. And it’s really hard to see that stepping back is also a gift.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: Right? You’re giving kids this gift of trust and independence and time when they can figure stuff out on their own. And I think it would go a long way to solving a lot of the anxiety crisis and the depression crisis that we see in young people because, of course, you feel depressed if you don’t think you can handle anything, and you’re anxious if you think, what’s gonna happen? I can’t handle it.

So with us being there all the time, out of the goodness of our hearts, we’re really preventing some growth from happening.

Sarah: Yeah. And you make a big—in your TED Talk and other things you’ve written—you make a big connection to that stuff and childhood anxiety, which you’ve mentioned a few times, but maybe you could speak directly to how you think that this is related to anxiety, which has certainly spiked in the last few years.

Lenore: Well, it’s not just me noticing that anxiety is going up. I know that right now the focus is all on the phones, but the anxiety was going up for decades, long before there were phones. And so our colleague Peter Gray, who’s the psychology professor at Boston College, did a piece in the Journal of Pediatrics that came out now three years ago, and it just showed that over the decades—not just since COVID, not just since the iPhone—over the decades, as children’s independence and free play have waned, their anxiety and depression have been going up. And by the way, their creativity has also been going down.

And it’s not just correlation, it’s causation, for all the reasons that we’ve just been discussing. It’s when you figure out what you like to do and you make it happen, and it doesn’t work, and then you work harder and you make it happen now—we all know that the triumph of like, oh my God, the cake didn’t rise, and now I made it and it did. That’s what kids need day after day after day.

And instead they’re getting lessons. They’re getting school, and then after school they get more school that just happens to be school about lacrosse or school about chess.

And so the antidote is more independence. And there are two things I’d like to say about that.

One is that Let Grow has a free program for schools that’s really easy. It takes like 15 minutes twice a month, and it’s called the Let Grow Experience. If you go to letgrow.org, you click on it, there it is. And what it is, is it’s a homework assignment that teachers give their kids—or that a counselor can give the kids, whoever it is at the school—once a month that says, go home and do something new on your own with your parents’ permission, but without your parents.

And each month there’s a slightly different tinge to it, like do something with a friend, or do something for your family, or do something out in the community. But the whole idea is for the kid to see that the world is their oyster. I can go to the store. I can bake the cake. I can climb the tree. And it’s for the parents to sit there shaking the whole time, yet their kid is getting the milk or whatever.

And then have this burst of joy when their kid comes through the door. They brought the milk. Oh, and look, they also brought cookies. I didn’t say to get cookies. Okay, they brought cookies. And recognizing that their kid is growing up and competent and isn’t a baby anymore, is capable of being a real person.

And that’s the joy that we keep taking out of parents’ lives by saying, you have to be with them every single second. Imagine if they came through the door: oh my God, you missed the home run. They get to tell you, it was a home run. You should have seen it. Everybody was cheering, and I thought I wasn’t gonna make it, and I did.

You know, you don’t have to be there for every triumph of your kid’s life. They can tell you about it too. And you just feel this joy of recognizing there’s a person separate from you who’s going forth in the world and making it happen.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: So we really recommend the Let Grow Experience.

And the other thing that I wanted to say originally about the importance of independence and being able to go around your neighborhood and be part of it is that we are all concerned about phones. And so over the summer, when we did that study about parents who think that their kids are going to be kidnapped, we also had the Harris Poll do a study of kids age eight to 12. And one of the questions they asked was: if you could play with your friends in any way, or you could hang out with your friends in any way, which way would you prefer? Either just free play, hanging out in the neighborhood, no adults, whatever, or in an organized activity—it could be knitting or hockey or chess—or online. And that could be playing video games or Snapchatting or just texting each other, whatever. Which would you prefer?

And I realize that this is audio, so I’m going to show you a graph, but I will also explain it. There’s a giant part of the graph that’s what kids most prefer, and that is just hanging out, free play.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lenore: Second choice is organized activity, and trailing far behind is phones, screen time, phones.

And so we keep thinking that kids are addicted to their phones. But kids are addicted to each other, and when we don’t let them meet up one way or another in real life, they will go where they can. Okay, everybody’s at soccer or everybody’s online, but that’s not by choice.

We keep thinking that kids are online by desire, but it’s by default. And default is ours. Sorry, that’s the first time I tried out that pun.

Sarah: I like it.

Lenore: But I would say that the fault is ours—and not individually. Culturally, we’ve just decided that kids can’t be roaming around the neighborhood and can’t be trusted with some free time. We think that they’re gonna fall behind or they’re gonna be—and that’s why we began this discussion with, well, if you want your kids to be outside, what can you do? You gather together with other friends and you make a pact. You send them to the park. Or you ask your school to keep the school open for the Let Grow Play Club. And then there they are.

It’s just so fun to watch. You watch them and you just can’t believe how funny and creative and sometimes bored and sometimes mad, and then problem-solving, they are. Because the desire is to play, and they make it happen by hook or by crook.

Sarah: I have another idea for you that is—

Lenore: Oh, great. Let me hear.

Sarah: Bring back the teenage babysitter.

Lenore: Yes.

Sarah: When I was growing up, everyone—myself and all my friends and my sister—we all had summer babysitting jobs. Because I think part of the reason why parents overschedule their kids and they’re in camp all summer in these activities is because they need childcare. Right, right. And even—I didn’t need childcare in the summers when my kids were little because I was a stay-at-home mom, but there were no other kids for them to play with. So I would actually tell other parents, hey, don’t put your kid in camp this week, and I’ll take care of them.

But when I was a kid, the 14-, 15-, 16-year-olds would have their summer charges. And this could work for after school as well. And then we would get together with our friends at a park or the neighborhood pool or whatever who had the kids that they were babysitting for. And they would all play together.

And even if you don’t have your teenage babysitter get together with other kids that are being babysat, they still have—they can still play instead of being in the organized activities. And honestly, I work with enough parents who have teenagers who—the teenagers say there aren’t any jobs. There’s no way for me to make money. And they don’t have anything to do either.

And lots of teenagers love kids. My kids all loved babysitting. And that’s another thing too, though, is that a lot of parents are afraid to let their kids be babysat by teenagers because they think they’re not responsible, which is totally not true in most cases. So maybe in Let Grow you could talk about bringing back the teenage babysitters.

Lenore: First of all, I think you should write a blog post for us about that, but you should probably just get it in the Globe and Mail. I mean, that’s just a great idea because it gives teens a job.

And then I thought what you were gonna say is bring back the teen babysitter because unlike a professional nanny or a coach, who’s paid to really be assiduously watching every single second of them or teaching them a skill, a teen babysitter might be sitting on the couch eating Cheetos, which means that the kids do have to entertain themselves more.

Sarah: Yeah.

Lenore: Or a teenage babysitter might say, let’s go outside and we’ll play a game together, because they’re still of game-playing age, young enough they—

Sarah: Wanna play. Yeah.

Lenore: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that’s really great.

And one of the things Peter says about a Let Grow Play Club is that you don’t have to have a professional teacher at however many dollars an hour running that. You can hire a teen or a couple of teens from the local high school.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: And then, like you said, they’ve got a job, and then the kids have somebody who’s supervising them who’s not inclined to micromanage—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: Or teach.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: So that’s a great idea.

You know, I’ve spoken to parents who were teenage babysitters and would not hire a teenage babysitter now, and also wouldn’t even let their teen be a babysitter because of this wholesale undermining of our trust in what our kids are capable of.

And when you say like, they’re not responsible enough—well, of course, if they have no responsibility, how can they even prove that they’re responsible? Which is sort of why I’m worried about phones and tracking. It’s like, how do you prove that you’re responsible when somebody can always check to see? I mean—

Sarah: Yeah.

Lenore: That’s—how do you prove I didn’t go to the party? I said I wasn’t gonna go to the party. I wouldn’t go to the party. Maybe you didn’t go to the party because you knew I could track you. It’s like, well, how do I ever prove to you how capable I am and how mature and responsible I—it’s hard.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. This is such a great conversation. I love the work that you’re doing and that Let Grow is doing. And I love the title—in my mind I had a “let it” in there, and then today I was like, oh, it’s Let Grow, like let go.

Lenore: That’s exactly—that was our original name, was Let Go and Let Grow. And then our executive director’s husband said, why don’t you just shorten it? And so we did. And it’s a terrible name in some ways—people think it is “let it go” or “let it grow” or “let’s go,” and “let grow” is a weird phrase. But that is the whole point.

Sarah: I love it. I think it’s great, and I love the work that you’re doing. And I wish that—I hope this catches on.

It’s interesting. I got interviewed for a radio piece the other day, and there was an article, and the article was about trending searches. And whoever wrote it seemed to think that the trend and the trending searches were about parents looking for ways to get their kids off screens, of course. But all the trending searches were adult-organized activities.

Lenore: Yes.

Sarah: You know what I mean? And so I said to the radio person, I was like, you know, these are all great, and maybe these are a really wonderful bridge from screens to being outside or doing creative play or whatever. But really, adults just need to get out of kids’ way. And that’s the key here, is that we need to get out of kids’ way and just let them do what they’re naturally predisposed to do.

Lenore: And also it gives us back our lives.

I mean, speaking of trends, the birthrate is plummeting and parents are stressed and some giant percent say they’re just barely getting through every day. And of course that’s the case.

I was just—there was somebody on, I don’t know, Twitter or Instagram today saying, like, I can’t believe it. My kids are saying, “Where’s my Lego?” and “What can I eat?” and “What can I do?” And I’m like, those are all questions that could be answered by a kid and not by you.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: And then that would get them more engaged in life, and that would give you time to read a book or run away from home, which sounds like it’d be great for everyone.

The whole point of my TED Talk was “I did it myself” is so important for kids, and it gives parents back their world too. Not everything has to be you watching them do something that you can see.

Sarah: Yeah. It’s really the answer to making intensive parenting less intensive.

And honestly, for me, a lot of the reason why my kids had so much of this unsupervised time was because I’m a bit lazy. Like, I remember this one time—I was thinking about this in terms of, like, the kids sometimes they’ll make mistakes and they won’t get it exactly right. I was bringing my daughter and her friend somewhere—they were probably eight—after dance class, I think I’d picked them up, and they were hungry, so I said, let’s get you each a piece of pizza.

But living in a city, it’s hard to find a place to park to go into the pizza place. So I said, I’ll give you some money. I’m going to pull over here in the no-parking area, and you two go in and get yourself some pizza. And I’m sitting out there like, this is taking an awfully long time.

And they came back with a medium pizza, like a whole pizza.

Lenore: Oh, that’s so funny. Wow.

Sarah: And they had somehow, instead of ordering two slices, somehow they had ordered a whole pizza. And they were a little surprised too. But I just laughed and I thought, how cool that they were doing this thing themselves and it didn’t go quite right, but also it was an experience, and they learned from it.

Lenore: And a memory. A memory. What if instead you’d parked and run in and brought them two slices of pizza and they ate them in the back of the car while you drove home? That would be a day that you would never remember for the rest of your life. And instead, it’s the day that everybody came home with this giant pizza.

Sarah: It was really funny. But that was purely because I was trying to cut some corners myself. I wasn’t thinking, gee, let’s let them experience going into a store on their own.

Lenore: Right, right, right. I mean, that’s the beauty of being a human. Not every—you know, you’re not a servant. And everybody’s better off if—

My friend once explained this to me, and then, of course, I’ve taken it as my own mantra as if I came up with it, but Chris Byrne told me that in the olden days there were three worlds, right? There’s the kid world, which is the riding their bikes and eating candy and chasing squirrels, whatever. And then there’s the adult world, which is boring. I remembered from when my parents were at the table, it’s like they’re discussing politics, they’re discussing who’s having an operation. It felt like you get to 50 and all it is is operations and politics. And then there’s family world when you are together, you know, at family dinner or on a vacation or church or synagogue or whatever.

But now we mash them all together. And really, everybody likes it more when the kids—it’s like the kid table is more fun than the kids being at the adult table at Thanksgiving, right? So you separate them. It’s not that they’re never gonna spend time with grandma, it’s that they’re joking and becoming dearly close with their cousins, and you’re finding out who’s having an operation. So everybody wins.

Sarah: That’s right. That’s right.

Where’s—the two more quick questions before I let you go. Where’s the best place for folks to go and find out more about what you do? And we’ll put any links you mentioned in the show notes.

Lenore: Great. So go to letgrow.org. And if you’re a school or at a school, there’s a section for schools, and you can get our free programs there. If you’re a parent, we have the same programs just for home use, and those are all free. Everything’s free. So you could click on the parent thing if you want to change the law where you live so that you’re—you know what, don’t even go into the law. So just press schools or parents. And then we’re all over all the different social media.

Sarah: Wonderful. Okay. The last question is the question I ask all my guests, which is: if you could go back in time with a time machine, what advice would you give your younger parent self?

Lenore: Oh, my younger parent self. I think I gave myself the advice, which was let your son ride the subway alone, because that was the inciting incident that started Free-Range Kids, is that I let my nine-year-old ride the subway alone, and I wrote a newspaper column about it.

What I didn’t know then is that it would end up being a movement and my life’s work. But I would say, do it that weekend, because like a week later he was 10 and nobody would care. So hurry up. That’s great. You got five days left, Lenore. Get him on the subway.

Sarah: Thank you for doing that, because it’s been—it’s really an important countercultural voice that you have and that your organization has.

Lenore: Well, thank you, and thanks for having me. And I love the rat story, and I’m taking it as my own.

Sarah: Oh, good. Please do.

Lenore: Thanks!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

Free-Range Kids: How Parents and Teachers Can Let Go and Let Grow

View Details

Transitions — mornings, bedtime, leaving the house, stopping play — are some of the toughest moments for kids and parents. If these daily shifts often turn into power struggles, this live workshop is for you.

Our workshopTransitions Without Battles: Guiding Kids Through Mornings, Bedtime, and Everything In Between will help you understand why transitions are so hard (especially for sensitive, strong-willed, and neurodivergent kids) and give you practical, respectful tools you can use right away.

In this live training, you’ll learn:

Why transition moments trigger resistance
Simple & specific tools to make transitions smoother
How to stay regulated when things get tense
Reset and redo strategies when it falls apart

Date: Wednesday February 18Time: 12 PM EasternCost: $27Replay included if you can’t make it liveFree for Peaceful Parenting Members

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Jessica Slice, a disability activist and the author of Unfit Parent, a Disabled Mother Challenges an Inaccessible World. We discuss the effect of Jessica’s disability on her life and parenting, and what non-disabled parents can learn from her about parenting.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

📣 And PSSST- New workshop next week- Transitions without Battles: Helping Your Child Move From One Thing to the Next without Meltdowns, Power Struggles, or Yelling- Get all the details here

We talk about:

00:00 — Intro + Jessica Slice and her book
00:02 — Jessica’s disability story and diagnoses
00:05 — Wheelchair, identity shift, and living as disabled
00:06 — The disability paradox explained
00:08 — Perfectionism, capitalism, and happiness
00:11 — Disability culture vs. hustle culture
00:13 — Becoming a parent unexpectedly (foster → newborn)
00:14 — Why early parenting can be easier for disabled parents
00:18 — Skill overlap: disability + parenting
00:20 — Myths about disabled parenting
00:26 — Fear of care, aging, and needing help
00:27 — Parenting and interdependence
00:29 — Community support and parenting
00:30 — Letting go of control and certainty
00:32 — Everyone needs help
00:34 — Advice to younger parent self
00:35 — Where to find Jessica

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Evelyn & Bobbie bras
Jessica’s books
Jessica’s Substack
Jessica on A Slight Change of Plans

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team-

click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the summer for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Podcast Transcript:

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Jessica Slice. She is a mother, a writer, and a disability activist, and the author of Unfit Parent: A Disabled Mother Challenges an Inaccessible World. I love this book and I’ve been telling everyone about it. I highly recommend you pick up a copy. We will link to it in the show notes. Until then, have a listen to my interview with Jessica, where we talk about disability and parenting and what non-disabled parents can learn from her about parenting. Whether you are interested in learning more about disability culture, or want some new and somewhat startling answers to the question, “Why is parenting so hard?” I think you’ll have a lot to think about after listening to this episode. Let’s meet Jessica.

Sarah: Hi Jessica. Welcome to the podcast.

Jessica: Thanks so much for having me.

Sarah: I’m so glad to have you here. If you wouldn’t mind just starting out by introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Jessica: Of course. My name’s Jessica Slice, and I’m really happy to be here. I am an author and a speaker and just write in general about disability and perfectionism and our shared fragility. I live in Toronto with my two kids and my husband, and we have a dog named Honey Puppy, and I’m, yeah, really happy to be here.

Sarah: It’s so good to have you here. So your book about parenthood and disability—I was so surprised that I know so little about disability. So maybe you could tell us about your disability and then your journey to becoming a parent.

Jessica: Yeah, of course. So I became disabled at 28. And so I have this real before-and-after story, and I also feel like because I don’t have a congenital disability—or I didn’t have a disability until 28—that I have a perspective from that specific position. You know, I grew up having a body that was generally accepted, generally welcomed, that I didn’t have accommodation or accessibility issues.

But when I was 28, I was on a hike. I developed heat exhaustion, and I just became extremely sick. So the day before the hike, I was active. I went for a seven-mile run. I was on vacation, and then the day after the hike, it was hard to even walk down the hallway. I just had this range of debilitating symptoms: extreme dizziness, nausea, this sense of kind of like floating above myself, unexplained fevers. My legs were going numb.

And I saw doctors and, well, I assumed I just needed to recover from the heat exhaustion. But then I didn’t. And so I just started seeing doctors and no one knew what was wrong. They said maybe I was just stressed. And this went on, and I ended up not recovering ever. Like I still have many of those symptoms now.

But about two years into that, I finally saw someone who diagnosed me with postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, or POTS, which—at that time, it was 2013 that I got diagnosed—it was not very well known. It’s better known now because it comes along with long COVID in a lot of patients, and so more people are talking about it.

But then two years after that—or one year after that—my little sister developed the same symptoms that I had, and it seemed rare that two people would have this exact same sudden onset. And so our doctor at Duke sent us to a geneticist at Duke, and that geneticist diagnosed us with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, which is a genetic connective tissue disorder. And so that causes a lot of widespread pain, a lot of dislocations, some vascular issues—well, not as severe as certain types of EDS, but can cause POTS. And so I have, I sort of have two disabilities that are connected, and in a lot of people with EDS, they end up developing POTS.

And then in 2018—so for a long time, for those first seven years I was disabled—I just sort of shrunk my life to fit my body’s needs, which I, which was okay. But I, I just didn’t go anywhere where I would need to stand or walk or be upright.

And then seven years in, when my child—and I’ll, I’ll explain meeting her—but when she was one, I was like, I think I wanna go more places. And so then I got my first power wheelchair, and that made it so I could go on walks and go to stores and go to restaurants, or go to her ballet classes, or just be in the world a bit more.

And so, and it was around that time that I really started identifying as disabled and not just sick. Mm-hmm. And that was a real transformation for me. It was a switch from feeling like I had this body that worked and stopped working to having a body that had switched from one identity to a different identity. What a trip that—yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Because you had experienced life as both disabled and non-disabled, you have a particular insight into something that I, that you wrote about, which is the disability paradox. Mm-hmm. Can you talk about that? Because I think if somebody had been disabled their whole life, it might be harder for non-disabled people to believe that the disability paradox is true. But because you’ve been—no, I’m serious. Like, it is kind of funny, but because you’ve had both types—mm-hmm—of lives, can you explain what the disability paradox is and any—just any thoughts on what you think listeners should know about that?

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, God, I could talk about this all day. I’ll try not to be too long-winded about it. But the disability paradox is this philosophical phenomenon where disabled people are far more satisfied with our lives than people would expect. And in fact, when you measure satisfaction, disabled people are equal to or more satisfied than non-disabled people. But that really goes against sort of our collective assumptions, which is that the very worst thing is to be disabled.

You know, even from the time someone gets pregnant, you say, “Well, I don’t care if it’s a boy or girl, as long as it’s healthy.” And I don’t wanna, like, take away from how hard it is to have a sick child, but the irony is: being a disabled person doesn’t end up diminishing life satisfaction across the board.

There are disabled people who don’t like their lives. There are non-disabled people who don’t like their lives. There are parts of disability that bring suffering. There are parts of kind of every person’s life that brings suffering. And so it’s not that disability never has hard parts, but it’s that it’s overly reductive. It overly flattens a person to say that being disabled is worse than non-disabled.

In my experience, before I was disabled, I had this kind of overly shiny and successful life. I stumbled into a career in my twenties where I was making a ton of money. I was married to my high school sweetheart. I was out with friends every weekend. I sort of like, there were all these things you should try to achieve, and I was just like, I had done.

Sarah: And you were on a cruise in Santorini when you got sick. Like, I mean, that’s like a perfect example of how shiny your life was, right?

Jessica: Yeah, it was. And earlier that year I had been celebrated in Chicago for being one of the best realtors in the country. Like, I just had—It was like someone had, you know, set up these things that we’re told will make us happy, and I was checking them off. And I had this really deep sense of—it was dissatisfaction or suffering, or kind of like rottenness inside me. And it was because I felt like I never was getting to the place I needed to go. Like there was this level of perfection, this level of joy, enjoyment that I couldn’t quite access. Like every trip was not quite good enough. Every accomplishment was not quite enough. It was like I was so hard on myself.

And I think part of that was being so proximate to what the world says we should be. And then when I became disabled—I mean, there were many excruciating years. There were the two years looking for a diagnosis, when I was getting sicker and sicker and sicker. There was the falling apart of my first marriage. There was losing an income. You know, I went for years without reliable income, living on very little a month. I mean, there was real suffering there.

But what it also did: it took me off this track I had been on, and then I had to form something else there. And I was forced to be still with myself. I was forced to tell the truth to myself for the first time. I just had a lot of time like knocking around my own brain.

And for me, once—especially once I was able to have money to live on and have a life, have a diagnosis, you know, have a life that felt like I could survive it—once I was there, it was wild, but I found myself so much happier than I had been before.

And I think a lot of that was because I liked myself and knew myself for the first time. And I had just sort of jumped off the track. I had, like, leapt from—or been forced off, pushed off—the track from this thing that I was almost good enough at to whatever was true for just me in my life. And there was such honesty there that even the hard parts felt survivable. It was like I was knocking up against something—(I shouldn’t clap on the mic)—but I was knocking up against something solid in myself. And that felt like a way I could live.

And so the disability paradox makes sense to me. Not that everyone has to have this wild change that I did or totally change their mindset, or I don’t mean to overly silver-line what can be a very difficult experience. But I think the real thing is: we do a very, very, very bad job of predicting what will make us happy. And the thing that often ends up working is just honesty and getting to know ourselves and being stuck with our own stillness. And that sometimes disability—or often disability—fosters a truthfulness that can feel like getting free.

Sarah: I love that. In your book you talk a lot about—I mean, it would be so easy for me to go off on this tangent, but I’m not going to—about capitalism and our culture of individualism. And do you think that part of the disability paradox is that you step away when you’re disabled, you need to step away from that? You said you stepped off the track and I immediately thought of the rat race of getting more. Mm-hmm. Having more, producing more, and not needing anybody else—that is capitalism.

Jessica: Absolutely. I mean, if we believe that more money and more purchases and more perfection in ourselves will bring happiness, then we never get there and we end up just spending a lot of money, which feeds a system that wants us to spend a lot of money. But disability culture as a whole fosters community, fosters creativity, fosters, you know, like a “crip time,” like a slower different pace of life. It’s like there’s all these kind of anti-capitalist sentiments inherent in disability culture, which I think really pushes against that. And I think that’s a huge part of it. I mean, as you know, my book—I sort of like, I say that over and over and over again. I think it’s massive. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. That’s a, it’s such an interesting—it’s a good segue, too, to talking about parenting. Because I think a lot of the things that make—and this is what your book is a lot about—a lot of the things that make parenting hard and not enjoyable also come from the same source of capitalist and individualist culture and society. Mm-hmm.

And in your book you have a chapter called “The First Week.” You were a foster parent and you unexpectedly got a newborn who is now—Mm-hmm—your child now. But you weren’t expecting a newborn, so you weren’t prepared for a newborn, and you had to kind of scramble and get everything together in that first week. Mm-hmm. It was a bit of a shock and surprise, I think, for you.

But even with that, you talked about how your first week was pretty relaxing and nesting and beautiful. And then as you started to talk to people—maybe you could take it up from here—you sort of talked to non-disabled people about their first week with their newborn and saw quite a contrast.

Jessica: Yeah. You know, I started that chapter not knowing what I would find. I thought there might be a difference between the struggles of the first week between disabled and non-disabled people. And I mean, a major caveat is that each person has their own unique experience. Painting with too wide a brush is never great.

But in my interviews, and what I have found since, is that in many cases disabled people have an easier time adjusting to parenthood than non-disabled people, at least at the beginning. And I think a lot of that is because the first week sort of brings to the surface realities that disability has already brought to the surface.

When you—particularly people who give birth—so if you give birth and you suddenly have a fragile body for the first time, and you’re taking care of a fragile baby, and like the baby’s fragility is just so evident—I don’t know if you felt this way, but with both of my kids, it’s like you’re watching them breathe like a maniac. Like they breathe so fast and slow and pause and they turn color—beat through the top of their head.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: Oh, yeah. Horrifying. And you’re just sort of confronted with these bodies and how fragile we all are. And you’re also confronted with how much we need other people.

And you know, one of my favorite disability scholars, Jennifer Fink, talks about how fear of disability is fear of needing care and/or fear of giving care. The first week is like: you need care. Particularly if you’ve given birth, you are giving constant care to this baby. And you’re sort of in—it’s like you are transported into this other world of fragility and interdependence and uncertainty.

And if you’re disabled, that’s sort of where you’ve already been living because of your own body and because of navigating the world. And if you’re not disabled, I think it can feel particularly jarring. And it can feel like, “How will I ever survive this? How can I ever get to the other side of this? Who am I now? Will I ever find solid ground again?”

And I think that disability is a protective factor there. I think it really helps you.

Whether those changes—I know with my daughter, she had some health issues at the beginning and I just had this sense like, “She’ll be fine.” We also didn’t know if she was going to be a—like how long she would be with us. It could have been weeks or months, and I sort of found myself okay with that. At first it was this weird sense of: all I need to do is love her and be here. And I know that sounds overly shiny.

And in the book I interview this woman who had volunteered to help us adjust. So I posted on the neighborhood listserv, said we needed supplies. This woman, Renee, replied and said, “I’m a doula in the neighborhood,” or a night nurse. “Can I come help you with your first night and help you get set up?” It’s—yeah—amazing.

And so she came and set up a bottle station, and she came in. And then my husband’s mom ended up paying for a couple nights a week of Renee to come and help us for those first few months, which I know not everyone gets. But you still have a lot of nights without help. Yeah.

But so she was there a lot during those early days. And so I interviewed her for the book and I was like, “Was it really as magical as I remember?” And I was sort of afraid she’d be like, “No, you were a disaster.” But she said, “No, I have never seen anything like it.” She said coming into your house was like just walking into—there was like—you were just like reading poems and so calm and happy and in love. And she said she really couldn’t wrap her mind around how different it was.

And that made me feel good that my recollection had been accurate.

Sarah: You weren’t rose-coloring it. You had a great quote on Maya Shanker’s podcast—which, what a great podcast to be on. That’s one of my favorite podcasts that I listen to.

Jessica: Oh, she’s the best. We’ve become friends since.

Sarah: Have you?

Jessica: She’s really—

Sarah: Oh, she seems lovely from listening to her podcast. We’ll put a link to the episode in the show notes for anyone who wants to listen to it. Great. But you said something on her podcast—so I’m gonna quote you back to you—that you said that you thought the first week, and parenting in general, was easier for—or could be. I know we’re making a lot of generalizations, but could be easier in general for disabled people because you said the bodies and minds of babies and kids are needy and unpredictable, and a disabled body and mind is also needy and unpredictable, and that you saw there was a practical overlap in skills. I thought that really distilled down the idea that you’re talking about just now.

Jessica: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think it’s kind of like we’ve just been practicing for this without realizing it.

Sarah: And I think that’s the thing that’s so hard: for parents, that needy and unpredictability is what makes the adjustment to parenting so hard for non-disabled people who aren’t used to—again, to the capitalist and individualistic structure—Mm-hmm. We think we can control everything. Mm-hmm. And perfectionism is another theme in your book too, right? Mm-hmm. Of like, we can control everything and we can make it all perfect. Mm-hmm. And if you’re disabled, you’ve probably had to let go of that idea of control and perfection.

Jessica: I get maybe one email a week from a person whose parent was disabled, or is disabled. And the one I got this week said, “Everyone thinks their mom is the best. But, Jessica, if I may, my mom was the best. She was patient, kind, and smart. She would happily read to me or listen to silly stories or let me sit on her lap for as long as I wanted.” And then she said, “As an adult and mother, I have always had the feeling that my mom was a better mother somehow because of her disability, but I have also always felt guilty even thinking that, like I was somehow celebrating her having MS—a disease that took her from us. The way you describe disabled parenting and its creativity, resourcefulness, and necessary rejection of capitalist hustle reads at some points to me like a love letter to my own mom.”

Sarah: Aw, that is so sweet. Incredible. So lovely. Yeah. That’s really lovely.

Jessica: And it feels—’cause there’s this feeling writing the book of like, “What if my kids hate having a disabled mom?” And I’m like, “No, it’s actually great having me as a mom.” And getting these emails from people saying, “No, this is what I experienced,” mm-hmm, that there’s something in the way disability forces a rejection of hustle culture for many of us that allows us to be the kind of present and slow and flexible parents—or at least that I could have never been before.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. There’s so much in your book too about the challenges with the medical system and Child Protective Services, that people who are disabled get their kids taken away at way higher rates than people who are not disabled, and have trouble accessing good medical care, reproductive services. You know, there’s a long list of things that are harder for disabled people. So I’m glad that there’s something that feels like you’ve got a boost in that, that you’ve—Yeah. It’s like a short circuit to things that I hope parents in our community slowly start to figure out in terms of the perfectionism, mm-hmm, and the slowing down. You were forced to do all of that.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. I do sometimes feel self-conscious when I see the way my peers parent—when I see them making these perfect little lunches and these divided-up lunch boxes, or doing elf on the shelf, or these kind of versions of parenting that I just—I don’t have the energy or capacity to have as part of our lives. And I can feel like, “Are my kids missing out from this type of parenting?” And maybe in some ways they are. You know, nothing simple.

But I know I would have done those things. The version of me in my twenties would have done those things, but she would’ve also been a lot less patient. She would’ve had a lot less time for just sort of wasting hours and being together. And I don’t know that there—I have an ability to be present with my kids that I wouldn’t have had before.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think you—I heard you say on Maya Shanker’s podcast that you and your husband one weekend were like, “Oh my gosh, it was such a busy weekend,” but then you realized that you had only gone to the park and met some friends or something. But I think that’s amazing. Like, I think that kids would trade more time with their parents and more connection time, whatever that looked like, for all of the activities and all of the stuff. Like, I really do.

Jessica: Thanks. Yeah. We don’t do very much. Our kids are in no activities, and who knows what they’ll end up being mad about as adults.

Sarah: So what myths about disabled parenting do you want to dispel? You said a lot of non-disabled parents think that disabled parenting would be like—they’re just who they are, but without being able to see, was an example you said in your book, right? And so—I don’t know—maybe in that direction: what do you—yeah.

Jessica: Oh, that’s great. So yeah. And I found myself feeling this way. You know, when I interviewed blind parents for the book, I was imagining my life, but without vision. Mm-hmm. And when people imagine me as a wheelchair user, as a parent, they probably imagine their life, but just adding a wheelchair, and that’s not really how things work. We adapt based on who we are and our needs and our whole life is sort of built around that.

And so there’s a level of creativity. There’s a level of building from the ground up. I think people really underestimate our ability as humans to build and to create and to problem-solve in community. You know, I have a lot of close relationships with other disabled parents and we problem-solve together, and I think that—I think it’s more possible than people imagine.

I was watching a friend of mine, Jessica, do a reel recently where she went through her face cream nighttime routine, and she is a quadriplegic and so she has some use of her hands but can’t rotate in certain ways. And she was walking through which bottles she can open and that she puts them on her sink and then dips her thumb in and kind of puts it on her face and then—and it took a very long time.

And I also—I don’t have a very complex face routine. So in that way it was like, I was like, “I would never do that.” But I thought, “Oh my gosh, she must be so tired doing that every night.” And I found myself thinking about her routine through my body. But then I thought, “No, I’m doing the thing.” It’s not her routine through my body; it’s her routine through her body, which she lives in.

And we all just live in the bodies we have and get used to it. You know, like when you’re walking around your house, you’re not like, “This would be easier to clean up if I could fly,” or, “If I had wheels on my feet,” or whatever. We just live in our own bodies. And I think it’s a different way to think about disability.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. I’m so glad I read your book because I didn’t know how much I didn’t think about disability. Do you know what I mean? And that just reminded me when you said, “We live in our own bodies,” and it’s so useful to be able to see the world in a different way through somebody else’s eyes a little bit.

I was actually reading your book at a cafe yesterday and I got up to go to the bathroom and I realized that the bathroom had a handicap sign on the door, but it had a piece of furniture that was outside the doorway that was blocking the door. Yeah. So that somebody in a wheelchair wouldn’t have been able to get through the doorway.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: You know, I don’t know. It’s just stuff like that. It’s so good to—

Jessica: Oh my gosh, that’s constant. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Jessica: Or you go into a bathroom like that and there it’s where they store all the supplies for the restaurant, so you can’t actually put your wheelchair inside.

Sarah: Right. It’s too crowded. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. And the thing about disability is it’s coming for us all. The only way you live a life without disability is if you die tragically one day. Otherwise your body—all of our bodies—change at some point. Yeah. And we, and our needs and capacity shift. I mean, you know, even you—like, I would imagine at this point your needs, your capacities are different than they were 20 years ago. And I think our discomfort with that ends up hurting ourselves too, because we have such fear of aging, such fear of need, such fear of all the ways we change, and that’s just part of being a human with a body.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you talk about that fear of disability, and I think it’s the same with fear of aging, fear of care, right? Mm-hmm. Fear of needing care. Mm-hmm. And, mm-hmm, can you talk about the care aspect—talk a little bit about parenting and how you see non-disabled parenting as people are suffering because of that lack of care that we have?

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think for all parents there’s this sense that you should be able to provide what your kids need without assistance, and that there is a distinction between people who give care and people who need care. And that a mom in particular is a person who gives care and doesn’t need it.

And I think what disability forces to the surface—particularly those who have some care needs like me—is: I give care and I need care, and that is part of my daily life. And needing care does not hinder my ability to be a valuable member of my family or a good mom. And I think it dispels that myth, I guess, that you have to be one or the other.

But I think if all parents could reject that binary of caregivers or care receivers, then it would mean that parenting didn’t feel as impossible, or didn’t have such an impossible standard, that weakness were allowed, or dependence were allowed, or interdependence.

And I think it would just change how we think about parenting in general because there’s this feeling, I believe, that particularly moms have to be all-powerful and limitless and perfect—and that it is a failure in the very definition of what it is to be a parent to start to need support and care.

Sarah: That’s so true. I live in a community of about 700 people and our houses are all very close together and we all know way more about each other than perhaps you might want your neighbors knowing about you. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, it is a community of care.

And I was reflecting on how my first week didn’t feel that hard, but I also had neighbors who organized dinners brought to us hot at six o’clock every night. And my in-laws lived down the street, and I had friends who lived nearby who could come over and help and hold the baby. What a difference it is to live in a community where people help each other.

We lived temporarily in Vancouver for a year, and the night before we were moving back, we realized that we had gotten—in trouble—with being packed and ready for the moving truck to come and called the one person that we knew who was in town and said, “Can you come over and help us? Like, we’re in trouble. The packing—we’re really behind.” And he said, “Oh, I’m sorry. I’m watching a movie. I can’t come.”

And I realized: back in our old community, I could have put something out on our E-group for our neighborhood, and I would’ve had 30 people—I kid you not—people who I don’t even really know very well who would’ve been like, “I’ll help you. I’ll help you.”

For me, I don’t think that my motherhood was as lonely or as difficult because I live in a community. And people generally don’t live in a community like that anymore.

Jessica: No. Oh, that’s an excellent point. I think disability forces interdependence. But I mean, the point I try to make with my book is you don’t have to be disabled to have these values of creativity and interdependence and rejection of hustle culture. And it sounds like those are some of your inherent values too.

And yeah. I mean, community eases so many of those burdens. And not seeing the need for your neighbors as evidence that you’re not suited for motherhood, but just that you’re a person with limits.

Sarah: Yeah. I would get, sometimes I would feel lonely and just go out with the baby in the baby carriage. Yeah. Find someone to talk to. Just—yeah. Yeah.

And I think that can be one of the answers too: how to make non-disabled parenting easier is to try to find and make community if possible. But are there any other things that you can think of that you think would be helpful?

Jessica: I think reckoning with your own fragility and the uncertainty of life is a huge part of it, I think. So much of parenting heartache comes from this feeling that there’s a way it should be with your kids, a way it should be with yourself. And then when you veer off of that, it feels intolerable.

And you know, there’s kind of the early parts of it. Like you don’t know what your kids’ educational needs will be, or their physical needs, or their sleep needs, or their anything needs, or their food sensitivity. You know, you don’t know any of that. But then that keeps going all the way to what is very hard to swallow, which is: we don’t know that our kids will be okay, and we don’t know that we will be okay. And that is terrible. And it is also true.

And I think so much of what we do in life and in parenthood is this desperate attempt to pretend that we’re not mortal and pretend that we’re not fragile. And to act like if we try hard enough, we can insulate our kids from suffering and from pain or from illness, or from, God forbid, death.

And I think there are ways we protect ourselves and protect our kids, but a lot of it is not protection. A lot of it is like this desperate attempt to close our eyes to what is true. And I think one of the most important—and one of the hardest—things I’ve done is confront that. Confront how little I control in my kids’ lives. Mm-hmm.

And there are ways we—and some of that’s just internal. Some of it’s poetry and journaling and just looking at it. And then some of it is actions we take.

Sarah: Just before we close, I was looking at my notes just to make sure that I asked you everything that I wanted to ask you. And I came across this really beautiful quote from your book that I had written down that I think really encapsulates something that we’ve just been talking about. And you said: “The problem isn’t that disabled people need too much help to parent safely. The problem is that society refuses to admit that everybody does.”

And I think that’s really beautiful to think: we all need help, and so many people are struggling because they think they should just be able to do it all themselves. And that we were not—we weren’t made to parent in isolation.

Jessica: No. And we weren’t made to solve our parenting problems with purchases. Mm-hmm. Or just working harder, or sleeping less, or optimizing our days or being more efficient. Like that—there is no there, there when you’re looking for the answer down that path.

Sarah: Yeah. And that’s what I mean—capitalism sells us that idea that if you have the—

Jessica: Yeah.

Sarah: You know, the perfect tool or stroller or whatever it is, then life is better and easier.

So thank you for your book. It’s a question that I ask all my guests, which is: if you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what would you tell yourself? What piece of advice would you give yourself back in those early days?

Jessica: It would be to get a wheelchair sooner. Yeah. Gosh, I missed that first year out in the world with her. Mm-hmm. And I wish I had had it sooner.

Sarah: What made you not get it sooner?

Jessica: I never considered it. Mm-hmm. Not once did I consider a wheelchair. I thought: whatever I could do with my own body was what I deserved to have access to.

Sarah: So—

Jessica: And I remember—yeah. And then I said to my husband at one point, “If only there was like a chair that I could be on that could recline and was cushioned and I could move around on it.” And he’s like, “I think that’s just literally a wheelchair.”

Sarah: I love that. Yeah. So, yeah. So you were still holding onto the “I can do it all.” Even with your disability, you’re still holding onto “I can just do it and grit through it and”—

Jessica: Well, no. So it wasn’t even—’cause I didn’t do any, like, I didn’t go places. Mm-hmm. I thought—not that I can do it all. I accepted my limitations, but then I made my life only as small as what I could handle with my own body. Right. I hadn’t considered that there are tools that would open up the world to me again.

Sarah: Well, I’m glad you got a wheelchair. And, me too, I’m glad you wrote your book. I really recommend it to everyone. And where’s the best place for people to go and find out more about you and what you do?

Jessica: My website is jessicaslice.com. I’m on Instagram and post when I can convince myself to. But I do write very regularly on my Substack, which you can find under my name, Jessica Slice, on Substack. And I write about parenting and about disability and about the poems I’m reading, and I really love that community there.

Sarah: Do you write poetry?

Jessica: No, I’ve never tried, but I read poetry every day and it’s a huge anchoring point in my day.

Sarah: Maybe when you have more—when you’re not in the thick of parenting small children—you should give it a try.

Jessica: Maybe. It sounds so daunting.

Sarah: Well, I mean, you’re a wonderful writer, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there were poems in there also.

Jessica: Thanks.

Sarah: Thank you, Jessica.

Jessica: Thank you.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Corey and I talk about modeling the person you want your child to be—instead of trying to force them into having good character or good values. We discussed the difference between being a gardener or a carpenter parent, raising kind and helpful children, and how to trust the modeling process. We give lots of examples of what this has looked like for parents in our community as well as in our own homes.

If you’d like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

We talk about:

00:00 — Intro + main idea: be the person you want your child to be
00:02 — How kids naturally model what we do (funny real-life stories)
00:04 — When modeling goes wrong (rabbit poop + shovel story)
00:06 — Not everything kids do is learned from us (fight/flight/freeze)
00:08 — Gardener vs. carpenter parenting metaphor
00:10 — Why “don’t do anything for your child” is flawed advice
00:12 — Helping builds independence (adult example + kids stepping up)
00:17 — Hunt, Gather, Parent: let kids help when they’re little
00:19 — How to encourage helping without power struggles
00:23 — Family team vs. rigid chores
00:26 — Trust, faith, and “I’m sure you’ll do it next time”
00:29 — Respecting kids like people (adultism)
00:31 — Living values without preaching
00:36 — It’s the small moments that shape kids
00:38 — Don’t be a martyr: let some things go
00:40 — When this works (and when it doesn’t)
00:42 — Closing reflections on trust and nurturing

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Hunt, Gather, Parent podcast episode
Evelyn & Bobbie bras

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team-

click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the summer for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Podcast Transcript:

Sarah: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. I have Corey with me today. Hi, Corey.

Corey: Hey, Sarah.

Sarah: I’m so happy to be talking about what we’re going to be talking about today because it’s something that comes up a lot—both with our coaching clients and in our membership.

Today we’re talking about modeling the person you want your child to be—being the person you want your child to be—instead of trying to force them into having good character or good values.

Corey: This is one of my favorite topics because people don’t really think about it. There’s that phrase that’s so rampant: “Do as I say, not as I do.” And we’re actually saying: do the exact opposite of that.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think if people did this, that phrase wouldn’t have to exist. Because if you’re being the person you want your child to be, then you really can just say, “Do as I do.”

I guess that “Do what I say, not what I do” comes up when you’re not being the person you want your child to be. And it shows how powerful it is that kids naturally follow what we do, right?

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: Yeah. We both have some funny stories about this in action—times we didn’t necessarily think about it until we remembered or saw it reflected back. Do you want to share yours first? It’s so cute.

Corey: Yeah. When I was a little girl, my favorite game to play was asking my mom if we could play “Mummy and her friend.” We did this all the time. My mom said she had to do it over and over and over with me.

We’d both get a little coffee cup. I’d fill mine with water, and we’d pretend we were drinking tea or coffee. Then we would just sit and have a conversation—like I heard her having with her friend.

And I’d always be like, “So, how are your kids?”—and ask the exact things I would hear my mom asking her friend.

Sarah: That’s so cute. So you were pretending to be her?

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: That is so cute.

I remember once when Lee was little—he was probably around three—he had a block, like a play block, a colored wooden block. And he had it pinched between his shoulder and his ear, and he was doing circles around the kitchen.

I said, “What are you doing?” And he said, “I’m talking on the phone.”

And I realized: oh my gosh. I walk around with the cordless phone pinched between my shoulder and my ear, and I walk around while I’m talking on the phone. So for him, that was like: this is how you talk on the phone.

Corey: That’s such a funny reference, too. Now our kids would never—my kids would never do that, right?

Sarah: No, because they never saw you with a phone like that.

Corey: Right.

Sarah: That is so funny. It’s definitely a dated reference.

You also have a funny story, too, that’s sort of the opposite—less harmless things our kids copy us doing. Do you want to share your… I think it’s a rabbit poop story.

Corey: It is. We’re just going to put it out there: it’s a rabbit poop story. This is how we accidentally model things we probably don’t want our kids doing.

So, if you were listening this time last year, I got a new dog. She’s a lab, and her favorite thing is to eat everything—especially things she’s not supposed to eat, which I’m sure a lot of people can relate to.

Our area is rampant with rabbits, so we have this problem with rabbit droppings. And my vet has informed me that despite the fact that dogs love it, you need to not let them eat it.

So I’m always in the backyard—if you’re hearing this, it’s really silly—having to try and shovel these up so the dog’s not eating them.

Listeners, we’re looking into a longer-term solution so rabbits aren’t getting into our backyard, but this is where we’re at right now.

Whenever I noticed I’d be shoveling them up and I’d see her trying to eat something else I hadn’t shoveled yet, I’d say, “Leave it,” and then give her a treat to reward her.

One day, my little guy—little C—who loves taking part in dog training and is so great with animals, he saw our dog eating something she shouldn’t. He ran and got his little sand shovel and went up to her holding it—kind of waving it at her—like, “Leave it.”

And I was like, why are you shaking a shovel at the dog? Totally confused about what he was doing.

And he’s like, “Well, this is how you do it, Mommy.”

And I was like… oh. I shake a shovel at the dog. You just say, “Leave it,” and then you give her the treat—not the shovel.

Not an hour later, I’m shoveling again, she’s trying to eat something she shouldn’t, and I’m like, “Leave it, leave it.” I look at my hand and I’m holding the shovel up while saying it to her.

Sarah: Right?

Corey: And I was like, “Oh, this is why he thinks that.” Because every time I’m saying this to her, I’m holding a shovel mid-scoop—trying to get on top of the problem.

Sarah: That’s so funny. And when you told me that the first time, I got the impression you maybe weren’t being as gentle as you thought you were. Like you were frustrated with the dog, and little C was copying that.

Corey: Yeah. Probably that too, right? Because it’s a frustrating problem. Anyone who’s tried to shovel rabbit droppings knows it’s an impossible, ridiculous task.

So I definitely was a bit frustrated. He was picking up both on the frustration and on what I was physically doing.

And I also think this is a good example to show parents: don’t beat yourself up. Sometimes we’re not even aware of the things we’re doing until we see it reflected back at us.

Sarah: Totally.

And now that you mentioned beating yourself up: I have a lot of parents I work with who will say, “I heard my kid yelling and shouting, and I know they pick that up from me—my bad habits of yelling and shouting.”

I just want to say: there are some things kids do out of fight, flight, or freeze—like their nervous system has gotten activated—that they would do whether you shouted at them or not.

It’s not that everything—every hard thing—can be traced back to us.

Kids will get aggressive, and I’ve seen this: kids who are aggressive, who have not ever seen aggression. They’ve never seen anyone hitting; they’ve never been hit. But they will hit and kick and spit and scream because that’s the “fight” of fight, flight, or freeze.

So it’s not that they learned it somewhere.

And often parents will worry, “What are they being exposed to at school?” But that can just be a natural instinct to protect oneself when we get dysregulated.

Also, kids will think of the worst thing they can say—and it’s not necessarily that they’ve heard it.

I remember one time Asa got really mad at Lee. They were like three and six. And Asa said, “I’m going to chop your head off and bury you in the backyard.”

Oh my goodness—if I hadn’t known it wasn’t necessarily something he learned, I would’ve been really worried. But it was just a reflection of that fight, flight, or freeze instinct that he had.

So I guess it’s: yes, kids can learn things from us, and I’m not saying they can’t. Your example—with the dog, the rabbit poop, and the shovel—of course kids can pick up unsavory behavior from us.

But that doesn’t mean that every single hard thing they do, they learned from us. And also, they have good natures. There are things that come from them that are good as well, that they didn’t learn from us.

Corey: That’s right.

Sarah: I want to ground this conversation in a great metaphor from a book by Allison Gopnik. I think the title is The Gardener and the Carpenter: What the New Science of Child Development Tells Us About the Relationship Between Parents and Children.

To really embrace what we’re talking about—being the person you want your child to be—you have to believe in the gardener metaphor of parenting.

The gardener metaphor is: your child is like a seed that has within it everything it needs to grow into a beautiful plant. You provide the water, sunlight, proper soil, and then the plant does the work of growing on its own.

The carpenter metaphor is: you have to build your child—make your child into who they’re going to be.

This idea we’re talking about—be the person you want your child to be—that’s the soil and the light and the water your child needs to grow into a beautiful plant, or a beautiful human being.

It’s not that we’re doing things to them to turn them into good humans.

And honestly, most parents, when you ask them what they wish for their child, they want their kid to be a good person when they grow up.

I want to say to parents: it’s easier than you think. The most influential thing you can do to help your child grow up to be a good person is to be the person you want them to be.

This goes up against a lot of common parenting advice.

One phrase I wish did not exist—and I don’t know where it came from, but if anyone knows, let me know—is: “You should never do anything for your child that they can do for themselves.”

Such a terrible way to think about relationships.

Can you imagine if I said to your partner, “You should never do anything for Corey that she can do for herself”? It’s terrible.

I make my husband coffee in the morning—not because he can’t make it himself, but as an act of love. For him to come downstairs, getting ready for work, and have a nice hot coffee ready. Of course he can make his own coffee. But human relationships are built on doing things for each other.

Corey: Yes. I think that’s so profound.

I think about how I was just telling you before we started recording how we’ve been spending our weekends skiing. When I first started skiing with my husband—even though I’d grown up skiing—I’d never done it as much as him. He helped me so much. He did so much of the process for me so I didn’t have too much to think about.

Now that we do it all the time, he said to me the other day, “Look at how independent you’ve gotten with this. You can do so much of this yourself. You’re managing so much more on the hill.”

He was so proud of me, and I was thinking: imagine if he hadn’t done that for me. If he had been like, “Just figure it out. We’re on the ski hill. You’re an adult.”

I probably wouldn’t have enjoyed it very much. But he did lots of things for me that I could have done for myself, and that love and support helped nurture the shared love we had.

Sarah: Yeah.

And I think it’s tough because our culture is so individualistic. Hyper-individualistic—everyone should stand on their own two feet and do things without help and make it on their own. And that has really leaked into our parenting.

One of the major fears I hear from parents is that their kid won’t be independent.

So a lot of parents push kids to be independent—and what that ends up looking like is the opposite of what we’re talking about.

Part of the reason there’s pressure for individualism is because we see it as a way for kids to turn into “good people.”

But so many qualities of being a good person are about human interconnectedness: caring about other people, being kind, being helpful, being conscientious, thinking about what’s the right thing to do.

All of that comes from how we’re modeling it—the gardener metaphor.

But there’s always this tension: wanting your kid to be helpful, caring, kind, and thinking you have to make them be those things instead of letting that gardener process develop.

I’m on the other side of this because my kids are grownups, so I’ve seen it develop. One of the things I realized a couple years ago is this progression I saw with Maxine.

One time we were on our way out the door. My husband happened to be leaving for work at the same time we were leaving for the school bus. Maxine was probably around seven, and I was carrying her backpack for her.

My husband—who also has that individualism thing—said, “Why are you carrying her backpack? She’s seven. She can carry her own backpack.”

And I was like, “I know, but she likes me to carry it, and I don’t mind.”

And I really knew that someday she would want to carry her own backpack.

Sure enough, a couple years later, she’s carrying her own backpack, doesn’t ask me anymore. I didn’t think about it for a while.

Then one day we were coming from the grocery store and had to walk a little ways with heavy groceries. She insisted on carrying all the groceries and wouldn’t let me carry anything.

I was like, “I can carry some groceries, honey.” And she’s like, “No, Mom. I’ve got it.”

She’s carrying all the heavy groceries by herself. This full-circle moment: not only was she helping, she wanted to do it for me. She didn’t want me to have to carry the heavy groceries.

I just love that.

Corey: Yeah. And I love when we have these conversations because sometimes it feels like a leap of faith—you don’t see this modeled in society very much. It’s a leap of faith to be like, “I can do these things for my children, and one day they will…”

But it’s not as long as people think. I’m already seeing some of that blooming with my 10-year-old.

Sarah: Yeah.

And Sophie in our membership shared something on our Wednesday Wins. Her kids are around 10, eight or nine, and seven. She’s always followed this principle—modeling who you want your kid to be.

She said she always worried, “They’re never going to help.” And whenever you hear “never” and “always,” there’s anxiety coming in.

But she shared she had been sick and had to self-isolate. Her kids were making her food and bringing it to her. She would drive to the store, and they would go in and get the things needed.

She was amazed at how they stepped up and helped her without her having to make them. They just saw that their mom needed help and were like, “We’re there, Mom. What do you need?”

Corey: Oh—“What do you need?” That’s so sweet.

Sarah: I love that.

One more story: this fall, my kids are 20—Lee’s going to be 25 next week—21, and 18.

My husband and I were going away for the weekend, leaving Maxine home by herself. It was fall, and we have a lot of really big trees around our house, so there was major eavestroughs—gutters—cleaning to do, getting leaves off the roof and bagging all the leaves in the yard. A full-day job.

My husband had been like, “I have so much work to do. I don’t want to deal with that when I come home.”

So I asked the boys if they could come over and the three of them could do the leaf-and-gutter job. And they were like, “Absolutely.”

They surprised their dad. When we came home, they had done the entire thing. They spent a day doing all the leaves and gutter cleaning. None of them were like, “I don’t want to,” or “I’m busy.” They didn’t ask me to pay them—we didn’t pay them. They just were like, “Sure, we’ll help Dad. We know he has a lot of work right now.”

I just love that.

Corey: Oh, I love that. When they’re so little, they can’t really help take the burden off you. But knowing that one day they will—it’s such a nice thing to know.

Although this brings us to that good point about Hunt, Gather, Parent.

Sarah: Yeah. If people haven’t listened to that episode, we’ll link to it in the show notes.

Let’s talk about some things you can do to actively practice what we’re talking about—modeling who we want our kids to be.

One idea is really encapsulated by Michaeleen Doucleff, who wrote Hunt, Gather, Parent. She traveled in Mexico, spent time with Mayan people, and saw kids doing household stuff without being asked—helpful, cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, taking care of younger siblings in this beautiful way that was pretty unrecognizable by North American standards.

She went down and lived with them and studied what they did. She found it started with letting kids help when they were little.

The two- or three-year-old who wanted to help a parent make food or do things in the garden—rather than the parents doing it without the kid around, or giving them something fake to help with, or not letting them do it—those parents let kids do it.

Even if it took longer, even if the parent had to redo it later (not in front of them). They let their kids be imperfect helpers and enthusiastic helpers.

That’s an impulse we’ve all seen: kids want to help. And we often don’t let them because we say they’re too little or it takes too much time. And we end up thwarting that helping impulse.

Then when we really want them to help—when they’re actually capable—they’ve learned, “Helping isn’t my role,” because it got shut down earlier.

Corey: Exactly. And I really feel that for parents because schedules are so busy and we’re so rushed.

But you don’t have to do this all the time. It’s okay if there are sometimes where there’s a crunch. Pick times when it’s a little more relaxed—maybe on weekends or when you have a bit more space.

Sarah: Totally.

And while we’re talking about helping: this comes up a lot with parents I work with and in our membership. Parents will say, “I asked my kid to set the table and they said, ‘Why do I always have to do it?’”

This happened the other day with a client. I asked, “What was your child doing when you asked?” And she said, “He was snuggled up on the couch reading a book.”

And I was like: I can see how that’s frustrating—you could use help getting the table ready. But let’s zoom out.

Modeling might look like: “Okay, you’re tired. You’ve had a long day at school. You’re snuggled up reading. I’ll set the table right now.”

Being gracious. Even if they refuse sometimes, it’s okay to do it. But also, in that specific helping piece, we can look at the times when they help without being asked.

When I give parents the assignment to look for that, every parent says, “Oh, I won’t find any.” And then they come back and say, “Oh, I did find times.”

So when they do help—carry groceries, help a sibling—how can you make them feel good about it?

“Thank you. That saved so much time.” “I was going to help your brother but my hands were full—thank you.”

Pro-social behavior is reinforced when it feels good.

If you want them to help more, ask: “What would you like to do to help the family team?”

Not, “This is your job forever.” More like, “I’ve noticed setting the table isn’t a great time for you. What are some other things you could take on?” And if they don’t have ideas, brainstorm what’s developmentally appropriate.

Often there are things kids would like to do that you’ve just never thought of.

Corey: It’s true. It’s kind of like how adults divide jobs at home—often according to who likes what. But with kids we think, “I should just tell them what to do, and they should just do it.”

It makes sense to work with what they like.

Sarah: And also the flow of the family and schedule.

That’s why we never had chores in the strict sense. My kids helped out, but it was never “one person’s job” to do the dishwasher or take out the garbage.

Because inevitably I’d need the dishwasher emptied and that person wasn’t home, or they were doing homework. And if I said, “Can you do the dishwasher?” someone could say, “That’s not my job—that’s my brother’s job.”

So instead, if I needed something done, whoever was around: “Hey, can you take the garbage out?” I tried to keep it relatively equal, but it wasn’t a rigid assignment. And I think that helped create the family team idea.

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: And that “it’s someone’s job” thing is that individualism again.

You hear this: “Can you clean that up?” and if you haven’t been modeling cleaning up messes that aren’t your own, you might hear, “Well, I didn’t make that mess.”

But if you model: if they make a mess and you say, “Can you pick up your crayons?” and they’re like, “No,” then you can say, “Okay, sure, I’ll pick up the crayons for you,” and they have the experience of seeing someone clean up a mess that isn’t theirs.

They’re more likely to absorb: “Oh, yeah, I can help with messes that aren’t mine.”

Corey: I’ve really seen this play out in my house this winter. One child loves shoveling. The second there’s any snow, he’s like, “Time for me to shovel.” It doesn’t matter if it’s early morning or dark out—he’s out there shoveling.

And I’ve been blown away, because first of all, I do not like shoveling. It’s genuinely helpful.

But he’ll also be looking out for when the plow comes by—this doesn’t happen where you live on the island, but for lots of people: the plow makes a wall at the end of the driveway. Even if you already shoveled, you have a new wall.

He’ll keep looking: “Just watching out for the plow.” Like a little old man. The second it happens, he’s out there so everyone can leave the house as needed.

And he’s even admitted, “There are lots of jobs I don’t like, but I really love doing this. This is something I can do for everybody.”

Sarah: That’s so great. That’s a perfect example of letting them choose something that helps the family.

In terms of flexibility—doing things for them—how have you seen that play out? Because for me, when my kids were small, they did very little. We’d do “Let’s all tidy up,” but maybe they’d pick up three things and I’d pick up most of the things. We’d do a 10-minute tidy.

Mostly I did dishes, setting and clearing the table, all of that. But then I found that as they got older, they just started doing it.

And I never got into power struggles because, honestly, it was often easier to do it myself. Maybe that worked out because I didn’t have a grand vision—I just lived it, and then I saw them grow into doing a lot as they got older.

What about you? How are you seeing that balance between what you do for them and how you see them growing?

Corey: I’d say this is where you really have to have faith. Something that maybe wasn’t modeled for us.

This comes up with clients all the time: they get anxious—“They’re never going to clean up, they’re never going to be helpful, they’ll be entitled.” They get stuck in “never” because it’s not happening right away.

So when I tell people: invite them, and if they don’t want to do it, say something like, “You don’t want to do it this time. I’m sure you’ll do it next time.”

But mean it—not passive-aggressive. Not “I’m sure you’ll do it next time” as a threat. Actually mean: “I’m sure you’ll do it next time,” and then go about it with trust that they will eventually do it.

You’re holding space. You’re not being anxious about it.

Sarah: Yes—holding space, having faith.

Corey: And I think it’s giving ourselves—and the parents we work with—a permission slip.

You can tidy up for them without being angry about it. If you’re doing this like, “No one helps me,” that’s not going to work.

You have to truly trust the goodness of your children—that they’ll want to be like this.

Sarah: Yeah.

And I think some of it comes down to how we treat other adults.

If your partner normally does the dishes and says, “I’m exhausted from work,” hopefully there’s give-and-take. You pick up slack when they’re tired.

A lot of this is: how do you want to be treated? How do you treat other adults? And how can you work on treating kids the same way?

So often we don’t treat kids the way we treat adults. And sometimes that’s appropriate. But often it’s just a lack of respect.

I saw a comedy skit once where these moms were sitting around drinking wine, and at first it was normal, and then one goes to reach for the bottle and another slaps her hand: “You haven’t finished what you have in your glass. Finish what you have first.”

Someone interrupts, and the other says, “I was still speaking. Wait until I’m done speaking.”

And you’re like: oh my gosh, that’s what people do to kids all the time. If you see an adult do it to another adult, it’s funny—but it’s also jarring because it’s considered normal when people do it to kids.

Kids aren’t always seen as having the same rights or deserving the same respect as adults.

Corey: Yes. And I think Iris Chen talks about this. You did a podcast with her back in season one—adultism.

Sarah: Yes, adultism—like racism or sexism, but adultism: prioritizing adults’ needs and rights over children’s.

Corey: And that really stood out to me. If we treat them like the beautiful little people they are—not “just children,” but people—that goes a long way in what we’re talking about today.

Sarah: Yeah.

And the last big point is how this works with values.

Corey: We hear this a lot: parents get worried about values. They really value the environment and worry their kids aren’t living those values.

Like a parent who was upset their kids were buying candy made with palm oil because of how it’s harvested. “Why don’t my kids care?”

If we get preachy—“We can’t buy candy with palm oil,” “We only buy thrifted clothes”—it can turn into, “You’re trying to control me,” and then kids push the other way.

Versus if we live those values and give them room to play with them and figure out where they land, they tend to be more open—and more interested in the why.

A strange example from this weekend: I don’t really like those disposable hand warmers because you can only use them once. I prefer things we can use multiple times.

It was supposed to be really cold, so I was like, “Okay, I guess I’ll buy them.” I didn’t say anything weird about it. We used them.

At the end of the day, he had to throw them out, and he goes, “I don’t feel great about this. It was helpful, but I don’t know if it was helpful enough that we have to throw this in the garbage now.”

And I was like: that’s exactly how I feel. But I didn’t get preachy. He was able to think about it himself.

So even with values, we live them. If kids aren’t agreeing with our values, sometimes we have to give space and pull back. When someone’s pushing something on you, you often feel like not complying.

Sarah: Yeah. It becomes a power struggle.

And I do think there’s a difference between pushing and educating. You can give them information in an age-appropriate way, and you can say, “You can buy that with your own money, but I don’t want to support that, so I’m not going to.”

Not in a way that makes them feel terrible. Just: “These are my values.”

I’ve said this to my kids. Maxine was maybe 14 and said, “My phone’s broken. I need a new phone.”

I said, “What’s wrong?” She said, “My music library keeps going away and I have to download it.”

I started laughing and said, “That’s not enough to get a new phone.” I said, “My values are we use electronics until they’re broken. We don’t get a new phone because of a little glitch.”

You should see our minivan—it’s scraped up and old-looking. Maxine actually said we’re going somewhere with her boyfriend and his mom, and she said, “Can you please ask my boyfriend’s mother to drive?”

I said, “Why?” And she said, “Our car is so embarrassing.”

And I’m like, “It works great. We drive our cars into the ground.” That’s our family value.

And then last year, Maxine’s phone screen actually broke. She wanted a new phone, and I said, “My values—because of e-waste—are that I’d get it fixed if I were you. But I promise I won’t judge you if you want a new phone. Do what feels right for you.”

No guilt-tripping. And she chose to fix the screen instead of buying a new phone.

So these are examples—like your hand warmers—where we can give the information without being heavy. And they usually absorb our values over time.

Corey: Because it’s not just that moment—it’s hundreds of interactions.

And that’s actually empowering: you don’t need one big conversation. You get to show them these little things throughout life.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Corey: I mean, if we’re talking about phones, goodness gracious—how long have I needed a new phone?

Sarah: I know. I’ve been wanting you to get a new phone so you can post Reels for me.

Corey: They’re like, “Corey, maybe you’ve taken this too far.” But I don’t know—the modeling I’ve given my children is that you can make a dead phone last for two extra years.

Sarah: And I like your point: it’s all of these interactions over and over again.

The opposite of what we’re talking about is you can’t tell your kids not to be materialistic if you go out and buy things you don’t need. You can’t tell them people are more important than phones if you’re on your phone all the time.

You really have to think about it. That’s why that “Do as I say, not as I do” sometimes gets used—because it’s hard. It’s hard to be the person you want your kids to be.

And it keeps us honest: who do we want to be? Who do we want them to be?

Corey: I mean, it’s that moment when I stood there holding the shovel and I was like, “Ah. I see.”

So we can see this as a beautiful thing for our own growth, too, because we’re going to keep realizing how much it matters.

Caveat, though: I don’t want parents to listen and feel pressure—like every moment they’re being watched and they must be perfect.

Because this is also a chance to model messing up and making repairs. So don’t take this as: you have to be perfect.

Sarah: And the other thing: if you’re listening and you’re like, “Why do I have to do everything around here? Sarah and Corey are saying clean up your kids’ messes, carry things for them, do the chores…”

I’m not saying every parent should be a martyr and never get help.

Remember what I said: where can your kids help? What are they already doing? What could they choose?

And I think I also let a lot of stuff go. My parents once came to visit and said, “Sarah, we really admire how you choose to spend time with your kids instead of cleaning up your house.”

I was like, I think that was a backhanded compliment. And also them noticing it was kind of a mess.

It wasn’t terrible or dirty. It was just: I didn’t have a perfect house, and I did everything myself.

I did a lot myself, but I didn’t do all the things some people think they need to do.

Corey: That totally makes sense. You’re basically saying: what can you let go of, too?

Sarah: Yeah. For the sake of the relationship.

And I think the last thing I wanted us to talk about is: does this ever not work?

You and I were thinking about objections.

If you’re living this way—gracious, helpful, flexible, modeling who you want them to be—you’re putting deposits in the Goodwill Bank. Your connection increases. They care what you think because that Goodwill Bank is nice and beefy.

The only time you could say it wouldn’t work is if you didn’t have a good relationship. But if you’re doing all this, it builds relationship—so I don’t even think you can say, “This doesn’t work.”

Nobody’s perfect. There were plenty of times I asked my kids to do things and they were grumpy, or I had to ask 10 times. It wasn’t like, “Of course, Mom, let me empty the dishwasher.” They were normal kids. But in general, if you trust the process and maturation, your kids move in that direction.

Corey: I’d add one other thing: it wouldn’t work if this is all you’re doing, with nothing else.

Sometimes people think peaceful parenting is passive, and what we’re saying can sound passive: “Just be who you want them to be.”

But there are also times you need to do something. Like we said: if you’re being the person you want to be and they’re never helping, there’s also a conversation: “What do you like to do?” There are collaborative steps.

This is the big philosophy—embodying who you want them to be—but there are also practical supports and conversations that help them be successful.

Sarah: Totally.

And the last thing is: remember this happens over time. Trust the growth process and maturation and brain development.

Remember that when they’re little, their agenda is not your agenda. And as they get older, they start to see the benefits: “Oh yeah, it is nice when the living room’s tidied up.”

When they’re little, they don’t have the same agenda as you. That’s a lot of why you get, “No, you do it.”

And I actually can’t believe I didn’t say this earlier, but a lot of times when we’re doing things for kids, they feel it as nurturing.

So sometimes when they don’t want to help, it’s their way of saying, “I want to make sure you’re taking care of me.” Sometimes that can look like refusal or not wanting to do things themselves.

Corey: Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah: Thanks, Corey.

Corey: Thank you.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I speak with Katie Kimball of Raising Healthy Families. We discussed getting kids in the kitchen and getting them to love cooking, raising teenagers and why they are wonderful, managing screens at different ages, and what kind of skills kids need to become independent, well-rounded and self-sufficient once they leave our homes.

Make sure to check out Katie’s course Teens Cook Real Food!

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

We talk about:

[00:00] Introduction to the episode and guest Katie Kimball; overview of topics (cooking, teens, life skills, screens)
[00:01] Katie’s background: former teacher, mom of four, and how her work evolved into teaching kids and teens to cook
[00:04] Why the teen years are actually great; what teens need developmentally (agency and autonomy)
[00:08] Beneficial risk and safe failure; how building competence early reduces anxiety later
[00:10] Getting kids into cooking: start small, build confidence, and let them cook food they enjoy
[00:16] Cooking as a life skill: budgeting, independence, and preparing for adulthood
[00:21] Screen time: focusing on quality (consumptive vs. creative vs. social) instead of just limits
[00:25] Practical screen strategies used in Katie’s family
[00:28] Motivating teens to cook: future-casting and real-life relevance (first apartment, food costs)
[00:33] Teens Cook Real Food course: what it teaches and why Katie created it
[00:37] Fun foods teens love making (pizza, tacos)
[00:39] Where to find Katie and closing reflections

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Teens Cook Real Food Course https://raisinghealthyfamilies.com/PeacefulParenting
Evelyn & Bobbie bras: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/bra
Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/yoto
The Peaceful Parenting Membership https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership
How to Stop Fighting About Video Games with Scott Novis: Episode 201 https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/how-to-stop-fighting-about-video-games-with-scott-novis-episode-201/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Substack: https://substack.com/@sarahrosensweet
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team-

click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the summer for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Podcast Transcript:

Sarah: Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Katie Kimball of Raising Healthy Families. She has been helping parents feed their kids and, more recently—in the past few years—teach their kids to cook. We had a great conversation about getting kids in the kitchen and getting them to love cooking, and also about raising teenagers and what kind of skills kids need to become independent. We also talked about screens, because any parent of a teenager who also supports other parents—I want to hear about what they do with getting kids to be less screen-focused and screen-dependent.

Katie had some great tips in all of these areas, including cooking, feeding our families, and screens. In some ways, we’re just talking about how do we raise kids who are independent, well-rounded, and have the skills they need to live independently—and those things all come into play.

I hope that you really enjoy this conversation with Katie as much as I did. Let’s meet Katie.

Hi, Katie. Welcome to the podcast.

Katie: Thank you so much, Sarah. I’m honored to talk to your audience.

Sarah: I’m so excited to talk to you about teenagers, raising teenagers, life skills, screens—there are so many things to dive into. You seem like a very multifaceted person with all these different interests. Tell us about who you are and what you do.

Katie: I do have a little bit of a squirrel brain, so I’m constantly doing something new in business. That means I can talk about a lot of things. I’ve been at the parenting game for 20 years and in the online business world for 17. I’m a teacher by trade and a teacher by heart, but I only taught in the classroom for about two years before I had my kids. I thought, “I can’t do both really, really well,” so I chose the family, left the classroom, and came home.

But my brain was always in teacher mode. As I was navigating the path and the journey of, “How do I feed these tiny humans?”—where every bite counts so much—I was really walking that real-food journey and spending a lot of time at the cutting board. My brain was always going, “How can I help other moms make this path easier?” I made so many mistakes. I burned so much food. There’s so much tension around how you balance your budget with your time, with the nutrition, and with all the conflicting information that’s flying at us.

So I felt like I wanted to stand in the middle of that chaos and tell moms, “Listen, there’s some stuff you can do that does it all—things that are healthy, save time, and save money.” That’s kind of where I started teaching online.

Then I shifted to kids’ cooking. For the last 10 years, I’ve been sort of the kids’ cooking cheerleader of the world, trying to get all kids in the kitchen and building confidence. It’s really been a journey since then. My kids currently are 20, 17, 14, and 11, so I’m in the thick of it.

Sarah: We have a very similar origin story: former teacher, then mom, and a brain that doesn’t want to stop working. I went with parent coaching, and you went with helping parents with food and cooking, so that’s exciting.

I can tell from what I’ve learned about you offline that you love teenagers—and I love teenagers too. We have people in the audience who have teenagers and also people who have littler kids. I think the people with littler kids are like, “I don’t want my kids to grow up. I’ve heard such bad things about teenagers.” What do you want people to know about teenagers? What are some things that you’ve learned as the mom of younger kids and then teens?

Katie: It’s such a devastating myth, Sarah, that teens are going to be the awful part of your parenting career—the time you’re not supposed to look forward to, the time you have to slog through, and it’s going to be so difficult.

It’s all difficult, right? Don’t let anyone tell you parenting’s easy—they’re lying. But it’s so worth it, and it’s so great. I love parenting teens. I love conversing with them at such a much higher level than talking to my 11-year-old, and I love watching what they can do. You see those glimpses of what they’ll be like when they’re a dad, or when they’re running around an office, or managing people. It’s incredible to be so close. It’s like the graduation of parenting. It’s exciting.

That’s what I would want to tell parents of kids younger than teens: look forward to it.

I do think there are some things you can do to prepare for adolescence and to make it smoother for everyone. I like to talk about what teens need. We want to parent from a place of what teens developmentally need, and they really need agency and autonomy at that stage. They’re developmentally wired to be pushing away—to be starting to make the break with their adults, with that generation that we are in. Sometimes that’s really painful as the grown-up. It almost feels like they’re trying to hurt us, but what they’re really doing is trying to push us away so it doesn’t hurt them so badly when they know they need to leave.

As parents, it helps to sit with the knowledge that this is not personal. They do not hate me. They’re attempting to figure out how to sever this relationship. So what can we do to allow them to do that so they don’t have to use a knife? If we can allow them to walk far enough away from us and still be a safe haven they can come home to, the relationship doesn’t have to be severed. It just gets more distant and longer apart.

When they want independence and autonomy, we need to make sure we give it to them. My tip for parents of younger kids is that, especially around ages 8, 10, 11—depending on maturity level—where can we start providing some agency? My team will say, “Katie, don’t say agency. It sounds like you’re talking about the FBI or some government letters.” But it’s the best word, because agency isn’t just choices—it’s choices plus control, plus competence to be able to make change in your own life, in your own environment.

We can’t have agency unless we give our kids skills to actually be able to do something. The choice between “Do you want the red cup or the blue cup?” is for toddlers. That’s not going to be enough once they’re in the stage where their mind is growing and they can critically think. We want to give our kids skills, responsibilities, choices, and some ownership over their lives. That starts in upper elementary school, and it gets bigger and bigger.

Sarah: I would argue it starts even earlier. Toddlers can make the red cup or blue cup choice, and as they keep going, you can give them more and more agency.

One of my favorite parenting people, Alfie Kohn, says that kids should have the power to make decisions that make us gulp a little bit.

Katie: Oh, I love that.

Sarah: I think that’s true. We come up against our own anxiety too: What if they make the wrong decision? But it’s incremental, so the decisions become bigger and bigger as they get older. That’s how they practice being able to make good decisions—through experience.

Katie: We know statistically that anxiety right now is spiking massively that first year out of high school—where young adults are heading into the world, either to university or for a first job. One theory—one I would get behind—is that everything of adulthood, all the responsibilities, are crashing on their shoulders at once, and they haven’t experienced that level of responsibility. Sometimes they haven’t had opportunities to fail safely, and they don’t know what to do.

Sometimes we think we’re pushing problems out of their way and that it’s helpful, but we’re really creating bigger problems down the road. So with that long-term perspective, I love that “gulp.” We’ve got to let them try and fail and hold back.

Sarah: Do you know Lenore Skenazy, who started the Free Range Kids movement? She has a TED Talk that came out recently where she talks about how she attributes the rise in anxiety to the fact that kids never have any unwatched time by adults. They never have room and space to figure out their own way to make things work. Of course, I don’t think anyone’s saying we should inappropriately not supervise our kids, but they need more freedom. If they don’t have freedom to figure things out on their own, that’s where the anxiety comes in.

Katie: For sure. When Lenore and I have interacted, she likes to call it “beneficial risk.” Climbing the tree is the classic example, but because I love to get kids and teens in the kitchen, we got to talk about the beneficial risk of using sharp knives and playing with fire—literally returning to our ancestral roots.

The way I see it, and the way I’ve seen it played out in my own home: I taught my now 20-year-old to use a chef’s knife at age 10. He built competency. He took risks. He discovered how he wanted to navigate in the kitchen. So when he was 15 and getting his driver’s permit, I felt pretty peaceful. I thought, “He’s so mature. I’ve seen him make good decisions. He’s practiced taking beneficial risks.”

I felt confident handing him the driver’s license. When it came time for him to get a cell phone—first a kid-safe phone and then a fully unlocked smartphone—I felt like we had been building up to it because of our work in the kitchen. I think he did better than his peers with taking appropriate risks driving a car and having a smartphone in his pocket, because he’d had practice.

Sarah: And that was in the kitchen for your family.

Katie: Yes.

Sarah: Cooking is one of my special interests. I love to cook. My kids love baking. They were never that interested in cooking, although they all can cook and they do cook for themselves. My 21-year-old who has his own apartment has started sending me pictures of the food that he makes. He made some baked chicken thighs with mushrooms the other day, and a green salad. He sent me a picture and I said to my daughter, “Do you want to see a picture of Asa’s chicken?” And she said, “Asa got a chicken?” She was picturing it running around. We all laughed so hard because I wouldn’t put it past him, honestly.

When my kids were younger, they weren’t that interested. Maybe I could have gotten them more interested in the cooking part, but I always felt like that was my thing. What tips do you have—for any ages—about how to get kids interested and involved? You said your son was using a chef’s knife at age 10. What are some ways to involve kids and get them interested in that skill?

Katie: Knives are a great start because they’re scary and they’re fun—especially for guys. You get to use something dangerous. My second son, John, asked to learn to use a chef’s knife, so he learned to use a sharp paring knife at age four and asked to level up to a chef’s knife at age seven.

For parents of kids who are still in that intrinsic motivation phase—“I want to help”—the good news is you don’t have to try. You just have to say yes. You just have to figure out what can my brain handle letting this little person do in the kitchen. If it’s “I’m going to teach them to measure a teaspoon of salt,” then do it. Don’t let cooking feel like this big to-do list item. It’s just one teaspoon of salt.

Can I teach them to crack an egg? Can I teach them to flip a pancake? Think of it as one little skill at a time. That’s what cooking is: building blocks. If it’s something like measuring, you don’t have to have them in your elbow room. You can send them to the table; they can have a little spill bowl. Then you can build their motivation by complimenting the meal: “This meal tastes perfect. I think it’s the oregano—who measured the oregano?” That’s how we treat little ones.

The medium-sized ones are a little tougher, and teens are tougher yet. For the medium-sized ones, the best way to get them involved is to create a chance for authentic praise that comes from outside the family—meaning it’s not you or your co-parent; it’s some other adult. If you’re going to a party or a potluck, or you’re having people over, figure out how to get that kid involved in one recipe. Then you say to the other adults, “Guess who made the guacamole?” That was our thing—our kids always made the guac when they were little. And other adults say, “What? Paul made the guacamole? That’s amazing. This is awesome.” The 10-year-old sees that and blooms with pride. It makes them more excited to come back in the kitchen, feel more of that, and build more competency.

Sarah: I love that. That’s an invitation, and then it makes them want to do more because it feels good. We talk about that in peaceful parenting too: a nice invitation and then it becomes a prosocial behavior you want to do more of.

I started cooking because I wanted to make food that I liked. I’m old enough that I took Home Ec in middle school, and it was my favorite class. I think about my Home Ec teacher, Mrs. Flanagan, my whole adult life because I learned more from her that I still use than from any other teacher. I remember figuring out how to make deep-fried egg rolls in grade seven because I loved egg rolls. You couldn’t just buy frozen egg rolls then. So I think food that kids like can be a good way in. Is that something you find too?

Katie: One hundred percent. If you’re cooking things they don’t like, you get the pushback: “Mom, I don’t like…” So it’s like, “Okay, I would love to eat your meal. What do you want to eat?” And it’s not, “Tell me what you want and I’ll cook it.” If you meal plan, you get to make all the choices.

My kids have been interviewed, and people often ask, “What’s your favorite thing about knowing how to cook?” My kids have gotten pretty good at saying, “We get to cook what we like.” It’s super motivating.

Sarah: When I was growing up, my sister and I each had to make dinner one night a week starting when I was in grade five and she was in grade three. We could make anything we wanted, including boxed Kraft Dinner. I can’t remember what else we made at that young age, but it was definitely, “You are cooking dinner, and you get to make whatever you want.”

Katie: Why didn’t you do that with your own kids, out of curiosity?

Sarah: It just seemed like it would take too much organization. I think we tried it a couple times. Organization is not my strong suit. Often dinner at our house—there were lots of nights where people had cereal or eggs or different things for dinner. I love to cook, but I like to cook when the urge hits me and I have a recipe I want to try. I’m not seven nights a week making a lovely dinner.

Also, dinner was often quite late at my house because things always take longer than I think. I’d start at six, thinking it would take an hour, and it would be 8:30 by the time dinner was ready. I remember one night my middle son was pouring himself cereal at 6:30. I said, “Why are you having cereal? Dinner’s almost ready.” He said, “Mom, it’s only 6:30.” He expected it later—that’s the time normal people eat dinner.

My kids have a lot of freedom, but nobody was particularly interested in cooking. And, to be honest, it felt a bit too early as a responsibility when my sister and I had to do it. Even though I’m glad now that I had those early experiences, it was wanting to make egg rolls that made me into a cook more than being assigned dinner in grade five.

Katie: That push and pull of how we were parented and how we apply it now is so hard.

Sarah: Yes.

Katie: I’m thinking of an encouraging story from one of the families who’s done our brand-new Teens Cook Real Food. The mom said it was kind of wild: here they were cooking all this real food and it felt intensive. Over the years she’d slid more into buying processed foods, and through the class, watching her teens go through it, she realized, “Oh my gosh, it’s actually not as hard as I remember. I have to coach myself.” They shifted into cooking with more real ingredients, and it wasn’t that hard—especially doing it together.

Sarah: It’s not that hard. And you hear in the news that people are eating a lot of fast food and processed food. I’m not anti-fast food or processed food, but you don’t want that to be the only thing you’re eating. It’s actually really easy to cook some chicken and rice and broccoli, but you have to know how. That’s why it’s so sad Home Ec has gone by the wayside. And honestly, a whole chicken, some rice, and broccoli is going to be way cheaper than McDonald’s for a family of four. Cooking like that is cheaper, not very hard, and healthier than eating a lot of fast food or processed food.

Katie: Conversations in the kitchen and learning to cook—it’s kind of the gateway life skill, because you end up with conversations about finances and budgeting and communication and thinking of others. So many life skills open up because you’re cooking.

You just brought up food budget—that could be a great half-hour conversation with a 16- or 17-year-old: “You won’t have infinite money in a couple years when you move out. You’ll have to think about where you spend that money.” It’s powerful for kids to start thinking about what it will be like in their first apartment and how they’ll spend their time and money.

Sarah: My oldest son is a musician, and he’s really rubbing his pennies together. He told me he makes a lot of soups and stews. He’ll make one and live off it for a couple days. He doesn’t follow a recipe—he makes it up. That’s great, because you can have a pretty budget-friendly grocery shop.

I also don’t want to diss anyone who’s trying to keep it all together and, for them, stopping by McDonald’s is the only viable option at this moment. No judgment if you’re listening and can’t imagine having the capacity to cook chicken and rice and broccoli. Maybe someday, or maybe one day a week on the weekend, if you have more time and energy.

Katie: The way I explain it to teens is that learning to cook and having the skills gives you freedom and choices. If you don’t have the skills at all, you’re shackled by convenience foods or fast food or DoorDash. But if you at least have the skills, you have many more choices. Teens want agency, autonomy, and freedom, so I speak that into their lives. Ideally, the younger you build the skills, the more time you have to practice, gain experience, and get better.

There’s no way your older son could have been making up soups out of his head the first month he ever touched chicken—maybe he’s a musician, so maybe he could apply the blues scale to cooking quickly—but most people can’t.

Sarah: As we’re speaking, I’m reflecting that my kids probably did get a lot of cooking instruction because we were together all the time. They would watch me and they’d do the standing on a chair and cutting things and stirring things. It just wasn’t super organized.

That’s why I’m so glad you have courses that can help people learn how to teach their children or have their kids learn on their own.

I promised we would talk about screens. I’m really curious. It sounds like your kids have a lot of life skills and pretty full lives. Something I get asked all the time is: with teens and screens, how do you avoid “my kid is on their phone or video games for six or seven hours a day”? What did you do in your family, and what thoughts might help other people?

Katie: Absolutely. Parenting is always hard. It’s an ongoing battle. I think I’m staying on the right side of the numbers, if there are numbers. I feel like I’m launching kids into the world who aren’t addicted to their phones. That’s a score, and it’s tough because I work on screens. I’m telling parents, “Buy products to put your kids on screen,” so it’s like, “Wait.”

I don’t look at screens as a dichotomy of good or bad, but as: how do we talk to our kids about the quality of their time on screens?

Back in 2020, when the world shut down, my oldest, Paul, was a freshman. His freshman year got cut short. He went weeks with zero contact with friends, and he fell into a ton of YouTube time and some video games. We thought, “This is an unprecedented time, but we can’t let bad habits completely take over.”

We sat down with him and said, “Listen, there are different kinds of screen time.” We qualified them as consumptive—everything is coming out of the screen at you—creative—you’re making something—and communicative—you’re socializing with other people.

We asked him what ways he uses screens. We made a chart on a piece of paper and had him categorize his screen time. Then we asked what he thought he wanted his percentage of screen time to be in those areas—without evaluating his actual time yet. He assigned those times, and then we had him pay attention to what reality was. Reality was 90 to 95% consumptive. It was an amazing lightbulb moment. He realized that to be an agent of his own screen time, he had to make intentional choices.

He started playing video games with a buddy through the headphones. That change completely changed his demeanor. That was a tough time.

So that’s the basis of our conversation: what kind of screen time are you having?

For my 11-year-old, he still has minute limits: he sets a timer and stops himself. But if he’s playing a game with someone, he gets double the time. That’s a quantitative way to show him it’s more valuable to be with someone than by yourself on a screen. A pretty simple rule.

We’ll also say things like, “People over screens.” If a buddy comes over and you’re playing a video game, your friend is at the door.

That’s also what I talk to parents about with our classes: this isn’t fully consumptive screen time. We highly edit things. We try to keep it engaging and fun so they’re on for a set number of minutes and then off, getting their fingers dirty and getting into the real world. We keep their brains and hands engaged beyond the screen. The only way I can get a chef into your home is through the screen—or you pay a thousand dollars.

We can see our screen time as really high quality if we make the right choices. It’s got to be roundabout 10, 11, 12: pulling kids into the conversation about how we think about this time.

Sarah: I love that. It sounds like you were giving your kids tools to look at their own screen time and how they felt about it, rather than you coming from on high and saying, “That’s enough. Get off.”

Katie: Trying.

Sarah: I approach it similarly, though not as organized. I did have limits for my daughter. My sons were older when screens became ubiquitous. For my daughter, we had a two-hour limit on her phone that didn’t include texting or anything social—just Instagram, YouTube, that kind of stuff. I think she appreciated it because she recognized it’s hard to turn it off.

We would also talk about, “What else are you doing today?” Have you gone outside? Have you moved your body? Have you done any reading? All the other things. And how much screen time do you think is reasonable? Variety is a favorite word around here.

Katie: Yes. So much so my 11-year-old will come to me and say, “I’ve played outside, I’ve read a book, my homework is done. Can I have some screen time?” He already knows what I’m going to ask. “Yes, Mom, I’ve had variety.” Then: “Okay, set a timer for 30 minutes.”

I have a 14-year-old freshman right now. He does not own a phone.

Sarah: Oh, wow. I love that.

Katie: In modern America, he knows the pathway to get a phone—and he doesn’t want one.

Sarah: That’s great. I hope we see that more and more. I worry about how much kids are on screens and how much less they’re talking to each other and doing things.

I had a guest on my podcast who’s a retired video game developer. His thing is how to not fight with your kid about video games. One thing he recommends is—even more than playing online with someone else—get them in the same room together. Then they can play more. He has different time rules if you’re playing in person with kids in your living room than if you’re playing alone or playing online with someone else.

Katie: Nice. Totally. My story was from COVID times.

Sarah: Yes, that wasn’t an option then. Someone I heard say the other day: “Can we just live in some unprecedented times, please?”

Katie: Yes, please.

Sarah: You mentioned the intrinsic motivation of somebody admiring their guacamole. What are your tips for kids—especially teens—who think they’re too busy or just super uninterested in cooking?

Katie: Teens are a tough species. Motivation is a dance. I really encourage parents to participate in future casting. Once they’re about 15, they’re old enough. Academically, they’re being future-casted all the time: “What are you going to be when you grow up?” They’re choosing courses based on university paths. But we need to future-cast about real life too.

Ask your 15-year-old: “Have you ever thought about what it’ll be like to be in your first apartment?” Maybe they haven’t. That helps reduce that first-year-out-of-home anxiety—to have imagined it. Then they might realize they have gaps. “Would you be interested in making sure you can cook some basic stuff for those first years? When you’re cooking at home, it’s my money you waste if you screw up.” That can be motivating. “I’m here to help.”

Sometimes it comes down to a dictate from above, which is not my favorite. Your sister and you were asked to cook at third and fifth grade. I agree that might be a little young for being assigned a full meal. We start around 12 in our house. But by high school, there’s really no reason—other than busy schedules. If they’re in a sport or extracurricular daily, that can be rough. So what could they do? Could they make a Sunday brunch? We come home from church every Sunday and my daughter—she’s 17, grade 12—she’s faster than I am now. She’ll have the eggs and sausage pretty much done. I’m like, “I’m going to go change out of my church clothes. Thanks.”

If we’re creative, there’s always some time and space. We have to eat three times a day. Sometimes it might be: “You’re old enough. It’s important as a member of this household to contribute. I’m willing to work with you on really busy weeks, but from now on, you need to cook on Saturday nights.” I don’t think that has to be a massive power struggle—especially with the future casting conversation. If you can get them to have a tiny bit of motivation—tiny bit of thinking of, “Why do I need this?”—and the idea of “If I cook, I get to make what I want,” and the budget.

Sarah: The budget too: if you’re living in your own apartment, how much do you think rent is? How much do you think you can eat for? It’s way more expensive to order out or get fast food than to cook your own food.

Katie: I feel so proud as a fellow mom of your son, Asa, for making soups and stuff. In Teens Cook Real Food, we teach how to make homemade bone broth by taking the carcass of a chicken. It’s a very traditional skill. On camera, I asked the girls who did it with me to help me figure out what their dollar-per-hour pay rate was for making that, compared to an equal quality you buy in the store. Bone broth at the quality we can make is very expensive—like $5 a cup.

They did the math and their hourly pay was over $70 an hour to make that bone broth. Then they have gallons of bone broth, and I call it the snowball effect: you have all this broth and you’re like, “I guess I’ll make soup.” Soup tends to be huge batches, you can freeze it, and it snowballs into many homemade, inexpensive, nourishing meals.

Sarah: I love that. You’ve mentioned your course a couple times—Teens Cook Real Food. I’m picturing that as your kids grew up, your teaching audience grew up too. Were there other reasons you wanted to teach teens how to cook?

Katie: Yes. We’ve had our kids’ cooking class for 10 years now. It just had its 10th birthday. The most often requested topic that’s not included in the kids’ class is meal planning and grocery shopping. It wasn’t something I felt like an eight-year-old needed.

For 10 years I had that seed of, “How can I incorporate those important skills of meal planning and grocery shopping?” Then my teens got older, and I thought, “I’ve told parents of teens that our kids’ cooking class will work for them, but it’s not enough. It wasn’t sufficient.”

It was so exciting to put this course together. Even just the thinking—the number of index cards I had on the floor with topics trying to figure out what a young adult needs in their first apartment, how to connect the skills, and how to make it engaging.

We ended up with eight teens I hired from my local community—some with cooking experience, some with literally none. We had on-camera accidents and everything. But they learned to cook in my kitchen, and it’s all recorded for your teens to learn from.

Sarah: I love that. What are some of the recipes that you teach in the course?

Katie: We have over 35. We spent a whole day with a chef. He started talking about flavor and how seasonings work, and he taught us the mother sauces—like a basic white sauce, both gluten-free and dairy-free, a couple ways to do that, and a basic red sauce, and a couple ways to do that.

My favorite cheeky segment title is “How to Boil Water.” We have a bunch of videos on how to boil water—meaning you can make pasta, rice, oatmeal, hard-boiled eggs, boiled potatoes. There’s a lot of stuff that goes in water.

Then we built on that with “How to Eat Your Vegetables.” We teach sautéing, steaming, and roasting. The first big recipe they learn is a basic sheet pan dinner. We use pre-cooked sausage and vegetables of your choice, seasonings of your choice. It’s one of those meals where you’re like, “I don’t need a recipe. I can just make this up and put it in the oven.”

Then, to go with pasta and red sauce, we teach homemade meatballs. We get them at the grill for steak and chicken and burgers. Of course we do French fries in a couple different ways.

Choice is a huge element of this course. If we teach something, we probably teach it in two or three or four different ways, so teens can adapt to preferences, food sensitivities, and anything like that.

We use the Instant Pot a lot in our “How to Eat Your Protein” segment. We do a pork roast and a beef roast and a whole chicken, and that broth I talked about, and we make a couple different soups with that.

Sarah: You almost make me feel like I haven’t had lunch yet.

Katie: I’m starving, actually.

Sarah: I’m quite an adventurous eater and cook, but I’m going to ask you about my two favorite foods—because they’re like a child’s favorite foods, but my favorite foods are pizza and tacos. Do you do anything with pizza and tacos in your course?

Katie: We do both pizza and tacos.

Sarah: Good!

Katie: Our chef taught us, with that homemade red sauce, to make homemade dough. He said, “I think we should teach them how to make a homemade brick oven and throw the pizzas into the oven.” Throwing means sliding the pizza off a pizza peel onto bricks in your oven. I was like, “We’re going to make such a mess,” but they did it. It’s awesome.

Then we tested it at home: can you just make this in a normal pizza pan? Yes, you can—don’t worry. You don’t have to buy bricks, but you can. Again, there are different ways.

Sarah: I think teenagers would love making pizza on bricks in the oven. For us we’re like, “That seems like so much work.” But teenagers are enthusiastic and creative and they have so much energy. They’re wonderful human beings. I can see how the brick oven pizza would be a great challenge for them.

Katie: It’s so fun. My kids, Paul and John—20 and 14—they’ve both done it at home. As adults we’re like, “It’s such a mess,” but we’re boring people. Teenagers are not boring. So yes—definitely pizza.

Sarah: That’s awesome. We’ll link to your course in the show notes. Before we let you go, where’s the best place for people to go and find out more about you and what you do?

Katie: Definitely: raisinghealthyfamilies.com/peacefulparenting. We’re going to make sure there’s always something about teens at that link—whether it’s a free preview of the course or a parenting workshop from me. There will always be something exciting for parents there.

Sarah: Amazing. It’s been such a pleasure. I thought maybe I didn’t do all this stuff, but considering how both of my sons who are independent cook for themselves all the time, I think I must have done okay—even if it was just by osmosis.

Katie: That’s the great thing about keeping your kids near you. That was your peaceful parenting: they were in the kitchen and they were there, as opposed to you booting them out of the kitchen. There are lots of ways.

Sarah: My daughter is an incredible baker. She makes the best chocolate chip cookies. I have this recipe for muffin-tin donuts that are amazing, and she’s a really great baker. She can find her way around a quesadilla, eggs, and ramen for herself. I think once she moves out, if she doesn’t have mom’s cooking anymore, she’ll probably also be able to cook.

Katie: Yes. And so many parents need that bridge. They’re like, “My kids love to make cookies. They bake, but they won’t shift to cooking.” I would hope that future-casting conversation could be a good bridge.

Sarah: Yeah. You can’t live on cookies—or you might think you can for a little while, but then you’d start to feel gross.

Katie: Exactly.

Sarah: Thanks a lot, Katie.

Katie: Thank you so much, Sarah.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I speak with Katie K. May, a licensed therapist and author of the book You’re On Fire. It’s Fine: Effective Strategies for Parenting Teens With Self-Destructive Behaviors.

We discussed children/teens who are “fire feelers”, why intense emotions can lead to risky behaviours, how to respond to self-harm urges, how to stay connected or rebuild your connection with your teen, and what parents of younger children can do now to prevent challenges in their teen years.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

We talk about:

00:05 — What Is a Fire Feeler?
00:06 — What Emotional Dysregulation Really Means
00:07 — Fire Feelers Often Have Fire-Feeler Parents- Genetic and Environmental Components
00:10 — Why Teens Are So Easily Overwhelmed
00:12 — What Fire Feelers Do When Overwhelmed
00:20 — How Parents Should Respond to Self-Harm Urges
00:22 — When to Get Professional Help
00:24 — Why Depression Looks Different in Teens
00:25 — Teens Still Need Their Parents
00:26 — How to Stay Connected to Teens
00:28 — Judgment vs Validation
00:31 — How to Rebuild Connection When Things Are Broken- Katie’s Hierarchy of Connection
00:34 — Sensitivity & Impulsivity
00:35 — What Parents of Younger Kids Can Do Now
00:37 — Why Control Works When Kids Are Young — and Fails Later
00:38 — Why “Tough Love” Doesn’t Work

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Evelyn & Bobbie bras
Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Get a free chapter of Katie’s book
Katie’s website

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the summer for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Podcast Transcript:

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Katie May. She’s a therapist and the author of You’re On Fire. It’s Fine: Effective Strategies for Parenting Teens With Self-Destructive Behaviors. We talked about why some teens are what she calls “fire feelers,” and about how best to support them—and ourselves—when emotional dysregulation is common, troubling, and can be destructive.

If you don’t have a teen yet, but you have a kiddo with big feelings, have a listen, because Katie also talks about what she wishes parents of younger kids knew so they didn’t end up with these sorts of challenges down the road. Let’s meet Katie.

Sarah: Hi, Katie. Welcome to the podcast.

Katie: Hey, Sarah. I’m glad to be here. Excited to talk about teens and parenting today—stuff I’m jazzed to share.

Sarah: Me too. Yeah. And I loved your book. I’ll ask you about that in a second—or maybe you can tell us who you are and what you do.

Katie: Yeah. My name is Katie K. May. I’m a licensed therapist in Pennsylvania, and I lead a team of other therapists. We all specialize in working with high-risk teens and their parents. So every day, we’re in the trenches working with teenagers who are suicidal, self-harming, have eating disorders, are not going to school, and we’re helping them learn skills while also teaching their parents how to respond effectively—so the whole family is working together as a system in harmony.

Sarah: And your book’s called You’re On Fire. It’s Fine. I like it. My book—

Katie: Go ahead.

Sarah: No, it’s a great title.

Katie: Yeah. So I came to that title from this idea of biologically sensitive teens—or very sensitive teens—often feeling like they’re on fire with their own emotions. And I can dig into any part of that. But the idea is that parents who are well-meaning will many times say things like, “You’re fine. It’s okay. Go take a nap. Go get a snack.” And it feels like a little squirt gun trying to put out this big fire of emotion. So I thought that title captured those two points initially, to bring people into the framework that I teach.

Sarah: I love that. And it’s funny—I had a different interpretation of the title, and my interpretation, now that you said what you meant it to be, I can totally see that. But my interpretation was more like, “You’re on fire. You can handle these big feelings. It’s fine.” Like, this is just—let’s get used to feeling the feelings. So I guess it could be read either way.

Katie: I like both interpretations, and I think your interpretation speaks to probably how you support and parent. It’s nurturing and supportive of the process.

Sarah: Yeah. So tell us: what is a fire feeler?

Katie: A fire feeler is someone who is biologically sensitive. And what I mean by that is this is a kid who feels things very deeply. Their emotions are big and oftentimes overwhelming for them. And not just that—these are your zero-to-sixty-in-ten-seconds-flat kind of kids. They’re reactive, they’re easy to trigger, and when they’re triggered and they’re feeling their emotions in these very big ways, it also takes them a very long time to calm down or get back to their baseline.

And this is important because if you think about that slow return to feeling settled or centered again, oftentimes they’re being triggered again before they get back to that place of calm. And so they have a nervous system that’s constantly in a state of dysregulation—constantly triggered and upset. And it is very hard to access safety or calm or feeling okay because of that.

Sarah: And you mentioned emotional dysregulation, and in your book you have a very specific definition of emotional dysregulation. I thought it was a little more helpful and also a little bit more unusual. Can you give us your definition of emotional dysregulation?

Katie: So when someone is emotionally dysregulated, when they are triggered, it sets off this chain of emotions for them. Again, we go back to this idea that they feel on fire with their emotions. They’re often at this skills-breakdown point where it’s difficult to access skills or to calm down. And when you’re feeling on fire with your emotions, it makes sense that your brain comes up with escape strategies—things like self-harm, suicidal ideation, substance use—because it’s so big and hard to hold that the brain would do anything to make those emotions go away.

Sarah: I love that. And you also mentioned that people are biologically predisposed to be fire feelers, so I’m guessing that usually a teen’s one or both parents are also fire feelers, which would add a complication to the mix.

Katie: I would say so. I often find myself telling parents: some kids are born naturally good at sports. Some kids are born naturally good at music or art. And some kids are born naturally good at emotions—which means they’re very attuned to emotional states or nuances in the emotions of others.

And when we think about that as a genetic trait or a biological trait, it also makes sense that at least one of their parents carries this trait and is passing it down. And I think when I start to describe fire feelers—who they are and what it looks like—I regularly have at least one parent saying, “Oh, that’s me,” or “That’s you, honey.” They recognize it.

Sarah: Totally. Yeah. So I guess that makes home more complicated too when you’ve got a fire feeler and a fire feeler trying to find their way together.

Katie: It’s almost like if you yawn and it’s contagious—and the other person catches it. So if you have two people that are both biologically sensitive and they’re in the same room, one of them is triggered, one of them has a high state of emotional activation, it’s hard in general for another person in the room not to respond to that.

So there’s something that I teach. It’s called the transactional model. So let’s say a teenager is boiling over with frustration, and they’re exhibiting it. They’re bawling their fists. They’re snapping back at their parent. The parent then absorbs that emotion and they’re snapping back: “Don’t talk to me like that,” or, “It’s not okay for you to say that,” or “Don’t walk away from me.” Which then influences how the teen responds. And then the teen will continue to push or yell back, which then influences how the parent responds.

So we’re always looking at: How is it that I am influencing how you respond? How is it that you are influencing how I respond? And if everybody feels their emotions in these very big ways, it’s going to make that escalation that much bigger or faster because everyone’s overwhelmed in their emotions.

Sarah: So hard. I’m sure a lot of people listening can relate even when their kids aren’t teenagers yet—because that happens with little kids too.

Katie: Absolutely. It applies to all ages. I just happen to work with teenagers and parents.

Sarah: Speaking of teens, you mentioned in your book that teenagers are more prone to overwhelm. Can you briefly explain why that is? Because I talk about that too. I always say, “The drama is real.”

Katie: The drama is real. Thank you for saying that. So the way I look at it: teens are in this developmental state when so much is happening for them. They have unfully formed frontal lobes, which helps to regulate their emotions. They’re also dealing with hormonal changes, developmental changes, social stressors, peer stressors. They’re in school six hours a day, five days a week. There’s so much stress that’s placed on our teens.

And so if we think about a stress cup holding stress, it’s oftentimes just this one little extra drop that makes them lose control or makes them feel overwhelmed in their emotions. And I would say that’s probably true for everyone—that we’re all holding a lot, and it only takes a little to push us over the edge—but I think it’s the brain development that makes it even more challenging.

And then I’ll add to that the lack of control or agency over their own lives. They don’t have a lot of choice about what they do each day or what they have to do or who’s telling them what to do. So there’s a lot that’s outside of their control, and that makes it even harder to control or manage their emotions.

Sarah: I’m so glad you work with teenagers. You have such an empathetic view of what it’s like to be a teenager, and I think a lot of people—just a little sidebar—teens get such a bad rap in our culture and they’re so wonderful. I love teenagers. And also, I would never in a million years choose to go back to those years.

Katie: I wouldn’t either, but I do feel like I have a strong connection with the teen population. It’s interesting—we run parent groups at my center, and that’s a question that we’ll ask: Do you remember being a teenager?

And I think it’s hard for a lot of adults to empathize with the teen experience. But being able to do so—being able to put yourself in a teenager’s shoes—is going to help you support them so much more. Which is one of the things that I talk about in my book and in my work often: acceptance or validation before change. We always want to be understanding of the experience before we’re trying to problem-solve or change that experience.

Sarah: I want to ask you about validation a little bit later in our conversation, but before we get to that: what are some common reactions of fire feelers to overwhelm?

Katie: Yeah. Some of those common reactions tend to be self-destructive because, again, if we think about this idea that fire feelers are overwhelmed with their emotions—the big, fiery, painful experience for them—it’s not a conscious decision, but they would do anything to make that fire go out.

So this could be self-harm. This could be thinking about suicide. This could also be lashing out at parents. It could be numbing out in front of the TV or scrolling on social media for hours because it hurts too much to feel and I need to numb myself from that. It could be cutting themselves off from friends because the experience of relationships is so painful.

So a fire feeler will have a strong attunement to nuance and facial expressions and tones of voice. And so what might feel okay for one person, for a fire feeler might be interpreted as rejection or might be interpreted as “I did something wrong,” or “There’s something wrong with me.” And so the natural response of a fire feeler is to do whatever it takes to protect themselves from being on fire.

Sarah: I don’t even know if I totally understand it—but how do, and I know a lot of people don’t, how does self-harm bring relief to those feelings of overwhelm?

Katie: So there’s a biological response to it: when you self-harm—when one engages in a self-harm or self-destructive behavior—there is short-term relief. So if you think about emotions rising, rising, rising, what happens is it either blocks the escalation of those emotions, or it makes the emotional state come down quickly. It’s body physiology.

In addition to that, there are two parts to it. The first part is that it’s called negative reinforcement, and that doesn’t mean that something negative happens; it means it’s the removal of something that’s difficult. So that’s what I just described. You self-harm, you start thinking about suicide—it becomes an escape. It helps you to feel a sense of relief.

The second part of that is positive reinforcement, and that’s the social piece. A parent finds out that I self-harmed, and all of a sudden I am given warmth. You’re sitting on my bed. We’re having a heart-to-heart. You’re emailing the teacher to say that I don’t have to go to school tomorrow.

So there’s this one-two stack of: I feel better in the moment because it brings my body physiology back into a state of balance or regulation. And then on top of that, I’m getting my social needs met. And therefore it makes it really hard to break that cycle because there are all of these—this chain reaction of things that happen—that make me go from feeling awful to okay, and sometimes even more supported than before.

Sarah: That was such an interesting thing to read about in your book because I thought, “Oh man.” If I were a parent and had a teen that was self-harming, it would be so hard not to do that second part—the positive, what you call the positive reinforcement. So how do you support a teen without making it, “I self-harm and then I get a lot of really lovely warmth and attention”?

Katie: Yeah. So it’s not about removing the warmth and attention. It’s about changing where you put that warmth and attention. Instead of it being directly after self-harm, maybe it’s in structured and measured doses throughout the day.

So maybe we’re having a heart-to-heart in the morning. Maybe we’re going out and spending time together or watching TV together just because—and not because I self-harmed.

The other thing that I like to make sure that parents are familiar with and practiced with is how they respond when a teen shares an urge to self-harm or an urge for suicide. Because the way that it typically plays out—at least the first time a parent finds out about urges or that a behavior has happened—they’re crushed. Of course. Their face falls. They’re hurt. It hurts them to see that their child is hurting. They might cry. They might feel really anxious or helpless.

But a teen that’s witnessing that is interpreting that as, “My parent can’t handle this information, and therefore I can’t go to them with this information again.”

And so the practice for parents is minding your tone—being calm—minding your face, being more like, “Thank you for trusting me,” than, “I’m going to fall apart right now,” and minding your pace—staying calm and regulated and not rushing forward or feeling frantic.

And when we do this, what we communicate to our teens is: “I can handle this information. Therefore, in the future, you can come to me when you’re having an urge and we can handle it together, rather than you taking care of it by acting on it—and then me finding out afterwards.”

So that’s how we change the cycle: structured and measured warmth, consistent support, ongoing—not just after an event—and also being able to handle the information, even if you’re falling apart inside, because that is completely valid. But showing to your teen: “You’re not going to freak me out. I’m not going to fall apart if you tell me the hard stuff. I’m here for you. Come to me and we’ll handle it together.”

Sarah: And find your own support elsewhere.

Katie: One hundred percent. Yeah. Parents—I think any parent is going to need support, whether that’s their village, their people, their partner, their friend, a therapist. Parenting alone is tough stuff, and I wouldn’t recommend it.

Sarah: And I should have asked you this earlier in the interview, but when—are there any signs? A parent finds out your kid is self-harming or telling you they have the urges—is it straightaway “get help,” or are there early stages you can handle it yourself as a parent? When is this 911 getting help, and when is it, “Okay, we’re going to figure this out”?

Katie: It’s somewhere in the middle of “911” and “we’re going to figure this out.” The stance would be: if your teen has already self-harmed, they need to be in therapy. It’s beyond the point of handling it on your own.

When you’re noticing—it’s such a tough line because on one hand there are these typical teen behaviors: “I’m going to spend more time in my room.” Teens are moodier. They’re more irritable. They want less to do with parents. They’re more private. They don’t want to talk to parents. And so I don’t want there to be an overreaction to typical teen behavior.

But if we’re starting to see a duration, intensity, and frequency of that behavior that’s beyond typical—which, again, is going to look different depending on the child—my measure is usually: if my teen for two weeks is more tearful, more self-critical, more hopeless, not enjoying or engaging in activities that they used to—these are signs of depression. And that would be the point when I would want to engage more professional help to support in the process, because that’s where we’re going to start being proactive and head off escalation of crisis.

What happens is—and especially for teenagers—the symptoms of depression can lead to self-harm because there’s an overwhelm of that emotion. There’s a sense of hopelessness. Suicidal thoughts are one of the descriptors of the diagnosis of depression. We don’t want it to get to that point. We want to put help in place sooner.

Sarah: That makes sense. I read something the other day that in teenagers depression can look different than adults and sometimes it looks like irritability.

Katie: It really depends on the person. So I always go back to—we’ve all heard “nature and nurture,” but I think of it as biology and environment. Same idea, different words. But for some people, their environment can feel really safe to be vulnerable. It can feel really natural to express emotions, to cry, to be in that more vulnerable state. And for others, it doesn’t.

Or for others, they’ve learned that being vulnerable isn’t safe for them. It isn’t manly enough for them. It really depends on the culture and environment. And so it can come across as irritability. It can come across as anger—different dispositions as to whether someone internalizes their emotions or externalizes them or sends them outward to others.

Sarah: That makes sense. I think it’s good for parents to have an eye on things that maybe look different than they expect, just to keep track.

Katie: Yeah. And parents and teens don’t always express emotions the same way. I’m a very expressive and emotional person. I’m a therapist. I’ve also spent my whole life figuring out how to express my emotions. And I would say that my child is probably the opposite of that and doesn’t like being vulnerable in front of other people. So what you think makes sense may not make sense to the brain of another person.

Sarah: You were talking before about warm connection with parents, and you mentioned that it is normal for teens to want to spend more time by themselves or with peers. But one thing I wonder—and I wonder if you come across this too—parents often think that means, “My kid doesn’t want to spend time with me anymore,” or, “My kid doesn’t need me.” And my experience with my kids as teenagers was that wasn’t true at all—that even as they were moving away and differentiating, they still did like to spend time with their parents, and they still did like to do stuff with us and be close to us. What are some ways that you find are helpful ways for parents to connect? And how do you assure them that, “Yeah, you still are important”?

Katie: Yeah. As a child is growing and gaining more independence, it is such a natural experience for parents to feel grief and loss in that process because the relationship is changing. Teens do need parents less. Teens are more independent. They don’t want as much time spent with parents.

And so it’s important, one, to recognize that as a developmental milestone, and two, to recognize that means the way that you interact and respond to your teen changes as well. And so you’re not expecting the same attention or response from them as you did before.

But this is a grief process because you’re grieving the relationship as it used to be. You’re grieving your teen as they used to be. But you’re also—and this is the part we don’t think about—grieving yourself as you used to be because you have to become a new version of yourself to show up for your teen in a new way.

And so all of that is to say that it requires a lot of flexibility, openness to evolving, willingness to change how you see, interact, and speak with your teen. And so in thinking about that, it’s helpful to think about: What is it that my teen needs from me now?

They might not need me to cut up their food or call their teacher for them or set up their playdate for them. They might need me to drive them somewhere and listen to the music that they like and not be the one leading the conversation. They might need me to sit on the couch with them while they watch The Office and notice the parts they laugh at and just be there with them.

And both of those examples really nicely illustrate that your teens need less from you, but they don’t not need you. They need you to be more of a partner and less of a doing-for.

Sarah: When my husband and I both had pretty stable teenage years, we also had parents who were working a lot and not home when we were home. And I’m not saying this to make anyone feel guilty who isn’t home after school, but we really tried to structure our lives so that somebody would be home after school even when the kids were teenagers. Because our joke was: even if it’s just somebody who’s there that they can ignore.

Katie: It’s so true. But they know that you’re there.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So you talked a little bit about validation before. Can you talk a little bit about validation and its opposite—judgment—maybe starting with judgment: what to avoid when our teens are having big feelings? I mentioned before that I often say the drama is real. I think that’s where some of the judgment comes in with parents sometimes. Like, “Oh, come on, you can’t be that upset that the jeans you were hoping to wear are still wet in the washing machine.” Where do parents make mistakes in terms of that judgment?

Katie: For me, I see judgments as the fuel to the emotional fire. So when we are seeing our teen act in certain ways, judgments are our interpretation of their experience. One of those examples might be: a teen is having a hard time getting up and going to school because they’re really depressed, and they’ve been white-knuckling every single day, and today is just the day that they can’t. They can’t do it.

And so judgments from a parent might look like, “Why can’t you just go? Everyone else is going. Just get up. Here’s the list of coping skills that your therapist gave us. Use your coping skills.”

So it’s this judgment that they can, and they’re choosing not to.

Other judgments that I hear regularly are: “They’re manipulative. They’re doing this on purpose to upset me. They’re attention-seeking.”

Oftentimes our judgments are because if we weren’t judging and casting blame, we would be having to hold a really frustrating or painful reality. So if I’m not judging my teen and saying, “Why can’t you just get up and go to school? Just use your coping skills. It’s not this bad,” then what I’d be having to hold is: my teen is really struggling right now. My teen—the person that I love the most in the world—is thinking about wanting to die right now. And that’s awful for me.

And so judgments are a way of pulling ourselves out of this emotional pain, but also shifting that blame to the other person. And instead of being able to hold their experience.

And if we’re not judging, we’re able to first just notice and name and sit with the experience, which is kind of what I described: “My teen is in a lot of pain right now. They’re struggling to get out of bed and even function in their day, and that’s really hard.” And when I can name that, I can feel that for myself, and it feels really hard and painful and difficult.

And then the outward version of that is validating them: being able to say, “I see how hard you’re struggling right now. I see the pain on your face. I hear the lack of energy. This is really hard for you right now.”

So we can name the experience for ourselves with our notice-and-name, and then we can validate the experience for our teen by noticing and naming their experience.

And when we do this, it does often make the emotion feel more painful because we’re naming it. I think a common experience of that is: if you’ve ever been struggling and then someone in your life, in passing, says, “What’s wrong? You look like you’re going to cry right now,” and then all of a sudden the tears come because someone has named the experience. The experience was there all along, but having someone see it—having someone tell you, “This is real, this makes sense,” or “I notice what you’re going through”—it makes it come to the surface.

It’s actually a helpful experience, because if we don’t name what’s happening, we’re judging it, we’re stifling it, we’re ignoring it. And that’s like holding a beach ball under water. Eventually it’s going to pop out, but we can’t control what happens when it does. Someone’s going to get hit in the face.

So we want to take ownership, we want to validate, we want to notice and name what we’re experiencing, and these are the ways that we move toward acceptance of what is, so we have an ability to move toward problem-solving.

Sarah: Where would somebody start who’s listening to this and hearing all of the examples that you’re giving of communication—if they’re not even at a point where their teen is communicating with them? Like, things have gotten so fraught and feel so broken. Where would somebody start with that?

Katie: It’s what I call my hierarchy of connection. Oftentimes there is this big rift in the relationship because it’s not just one time that something has happened—it’s years or multiple experiences that have gotten them to this point, of this rift in the relationship.

So the hierarchy of connection is our blueprint and our path back to connection. It starts with parent and teen being in the same room together—not interacting, but also not criticizing, not having this tension or conflict happening.

The example I give often is: I’m in the kitchen putting groceries away. Teen is sitting on the couch scrolling social media or watching YouTube. But I’m not saying, “Hey, did you do your homework? Did you take your medicine? Did you do this?” I’m just existing and they’re just existing. And we need to practice being in the same space together without that criticism or nagging happening.

When that can happen, we can move into shared activities. This would be watching a movie together, watching TV together, driving somewhere, listening to music. Again: no tension, no conflict, no criticizing. Doing the same thing together without any of those things happening.

And this could take a very long time. It’s not one, two, three. It could be six months of doing the same thing at the same time before you’re moving on.

The final step is moving back to interactive activities. This could be something like playing a board game and talking to each other, having an actual conversation at the dinner table, or a deeper conversation about something that’s a bigger experience. It could be the ability to do this within the context of therapy, so you’re able to have some of those scarier conversations.

But there needs to be a level of trust, and an ability not to act on urges to criticize or lead the conversation to nag or check off the to-dos. You have to be able to hold the space—to be in the space with your teen—before that can happen.

Sarah: One thing that you mentioned in the book is that there’s a link between sensitivity and impulsivity. Can you talk about that? I found that really interesting. Why is that?

Katie: When someone is more biologically sensitive—again, there’s this urge to make those emotions go away. And so when you are more overwhelmed with emotions, the idea of impulsivity makes more sense, because the desire and need for short-term relief is higher than it may be in others.

And so when my emotions are really big, I also have really big urges to make those emotions go away, and it’s harder for me to hold these big emotions.

Sarah: That was really helpful. If you could have the parents and teens that you work with currently—if you could have had them ten years ago, because a lot of people who listen to the podcast have younger kids and they don’t have teenagers—what would you like them to be practicing or working on? Is there anything preventive that you’ve noticed, that if people had an awareness earlier on, when their kids were younger, they might not get to this point with teenagers?

Katie: Absolutely. What I find myself saying often is: parents go first. And what I mean by that is that it is a parent’s job to learn emotion regulation skills, to learn how to notice and name emotions, to learn how to validate—essentially to model all of the ways that we handle really big emotions.

So that when our teen is having this experience—or our child growing into our teen is having this experience—we have the skills to manage our own emotions and we know how to respond to their emotions, because that validation helps the emotion go down more quickly.

When I’m working with younger children—and I don’t anymore—but that is part of the process: we’re working with parents first for many weeks to give them the skills before we even start working with the child.

So that would be my biggest piece of advice for parents of younger children: practice the skills, know how to manage your own emotions, have your own support.

And I will add to that: if you had the experience of being parented in a way that was painful for you as a child, address those issues, because they’re going to show up in the teen years. In the opposite way, you’re going to feel like it’s karma, but it’s really just generational patterns continuing—and you want to be able to change those patterns and rewrite stories that were painful for you so they don’t repeat with your own teen.

Sarah: I love that. It’s interesting because I think when kids are little, fire feelers don’t develop as teenagers, right? Like a fire feeler is a fire feeler whether they’re five or whether they’re fifteen. But a five-year-old—you can put them in their room and hold the door shut. Not that I’m advocating that. You can pick them up and move them places. I think parents probably—unless they’re more aware of emotions and being, in my brand, a peaceful parent—they probably rely on things that then, as their kids get older, just don’t work. But they maybe have missed opportunities to practice all the things that are effective as teenagers because they were relying more on external control when their kids were younger.

Katie: I one hundred percent agree. I think coercive control is easier to implement when your child is younger. But practicing validation, direct communication, emotion regulation is going to pave the way for more success as a teen.

And what I would say is: I think most parents recognize, when I talk about this idea of fire feelers, when they have a three-year-old. I have a sister who has two toddler girls, and she’ll say, “I think they’re fire feelers,” and they are.

And so you know your kid. You know their disposition. You know when they’re more sensitive or they’re a deep feeler. And so knowing that now can help you pave the way for what’s to come.

Sarah: Can you speak briefly on—when I was a teenager in the eighties, there was a “tough love” approach for teens who were having a hard time: drugs and alcohol, not going to school. And the approach was like: crack down. Kick them out if they don’t follow your rules. I’m pretty sure that’s not what you would advocate for.

And I do think there has been a shift because people recognize that doesn’t work. So maybe if you could speak to that for a few minutes—why getting more strict and more controlling with a teenager who’s having a hard time isn’t going to be an effective strategy.

Katie: I have two thoughts on that: one is about the teen, and one is about the relationship.

So when we think about a teenager who’s struggling, who has these big emotions, if the message in the family is, “You’re too sensitive. Just suck it up. Just get it together. Why can’t you do this like your siblings can?”—what happens over time is they internalize that message as, “There must be something wrong with me, that everyone else around me can do this and I can’t.”

And so they begin to lose trust in their own emotional experience, in their own emotion meter. And that is one of the contributors to self-harm behaviors, because then when an emotion shows up for them, their brain thinks, “Well, this must be wrong.” Everyone keeps telling me that my emotional state is the wrong thing or it’s too intense, so let’s make that go away quickly so that I can continue to function in my life.

What I’ll say is: at my center, we see hundreds of kids every week—teens and families. A lot of them are these high-achieving, perfectionistic, private-school kids, and they’re self-harming and they’re suicidal. And one of the reasons is that that’s a strategy that keeps them going in this life that is expected of them.

So I want to be really intentional about broadening the picture that we may have of the type of teen who engages in self-harm.

The other side of that—the relational piece—is that when the parent is consistently giving this message of, “Just get it together. Suck it up and keep going,” it creates a rift in the relationship. The parent is no longer a safe person to come to when a teen is struggling, because they’re not going to get what they need.

And so if it’s important for a parent to have a strong relationship with a teen—and I think that is for most parents—we need to learn the strategies that welcome open communication, that are able to hold that struggle, so that teens come to us with the little stuff and the big stuff.

And I’ll add to that: so that teens want to stay connected to us after they leave home.

Sarah: Yeah, that makes so much sense. Before I let you go, there’s a question I ask all my guests, which is: if you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?

Katie: To my younger parent self? I think what I would say is that it doesn’t have to be perfect. And that’s something that I learned through my own education and the theory of good-enough parenting: that you only really need to get it right twenty percent of the time, and the rest of the time it’s how you repair, how you respond, and how you keep moving forward in the most loving and compassionate way for both you and your child. So that would help take the pressure off—both for younger me and also for probably a lot of other parents out there—that you don’t have to get it right all the time. You just have to want to keep going and want to keep trying to get it right.

Sarah: Nice. Where’s the best place for folks to go and find out more about you and what you do?

Katie: Yeah. To grab a free chapter of my book, You’re On Fire. It’s Fine, you can go to youreonfireitsfine.com. And for a therapist or media listening, katiekmay.com has all of my other projects and my counseling center and endeavors there.

Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Katie.

Katie: Thank you

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

👉 Before we get started-On Wednesday, I’m hosting a live workshop called When You Know Better, but Still Yell, where we focus on understanding what happens in those moments and how to interrupt yelling and repair without shame.

If that sounds supportive to you, you can find more information at reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop.

Now the episode!! You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I speak with Hunter Clarke-Fields, the host of the Mindful Mama Podcast and author of the book Raising Good Humans.

We discussed taking care of difficult feelings including how blocking our feelings can backfire and the role mindfulness plays in accepting and working through our own and our children’s feelings.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

We talk about:

00:00:35 — Guest intro: Hunter Clarke-Fields (Raising Good Humans, Mindful Mama Podcast)
00:01:00 — Big feelings as the root of so many parenting struggles + why willpower isn’t enough
00:04:00 — Hunter’s background: mindfulness, sensitivity, and parenting an intense child
00:10:00 — Two common coping patterns: blocking feelings vs flooding (and why both backfire)
00:21:00 — Mindful acceptance: what it is + how allowing feelings helps them move through
00:27:00 — Reflective listening + “name it to tame it” (why labeling feelings lowers intensity)
00:31:40 — Co-regulation in action: a real-life story of staying steady with a dysregulated teen
00:38:10 — Takeaways + where to find Hunter + workshop reminder + closing

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Workshop: When You Know Better but Still Yell Workshop
Evelyn & Bobbie bras
Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Hunter’s website
Raising Good Humans

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Podcast transcript:

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Hunter Clark Fields. She’s a mindfulness teacher and parenting expert, host of the Mindful Mama Podcast, and author of the book Raising Good Humans. We focused our conversation today around taking care of difficult feelings—both yours and your child’s.

So often, big feelings are the cause of parenting challenges and friction in our families. Hunter shared some great strategies for how to make these moments that happen every day more tolerable, and even how our lives get better when we learn to accept our own feelings and our child’s feelings.

And don’t worry if you’re like me and you sort of shut down when someone starts telling you that you should have a mindfulness practice. You can use Hunter’s suggestions even if you know that meditation isn’t necessarily in your future.

Interestingly, one thing Hunter and I spoke about is that you can’t stay calm or not yell in difficult situations just by willpower. It’s not just a choice we make—how to react in difficult situations. If you’re listening to this and recognizing yourself, especially that gap between knowing what you want to do and what actually happens when things get intense, I want you to know that you’re not alone.

On Wednesday, I’m teaching a live workshop called When You Know Better but Still Yell. We’ll focus on regulation and repair in real, everyday parenting moments—without shaming yourself or forcing calm. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can go to reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop.

Okay, let’s meet Hunter.

Sarah: Hi, Hunter. Welcome to the podcast.

Hunter: Thanks for having me, Sarah. I’m glad to be here.

Sarah: It’s nice to connect. I loved your book, Raising Good Humans. I was going to hold up mine—yours is behind you there. There’s some really valuable stuff in it around being the peaceful parent that we want to be. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do before we get started?

Hunter: Sure. I’m a mom of two daughters and a podcaster. I’ve been podcasting the Mindful Mama Podcast for a long time. I guess I like to talk, and I’m fascinated by people. I’ve been a student of mindfulness for many, many years, and a student of parenting because it was something I was very much struggling with.

So that’s me in a nutshell. I’m also really passionate about Scottish country dance. We used to have paintings and galleries, and I was a passionate painter—so there are lots of different things happening.

Sarah: I love that. Are you Scottish?

Hunter: A little bit by heritage, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Hunter: Hunter is actually a Scottish last name. My maternal grandfather’s maternal grandfather’s last name was Donald Hunter.

Sarah: Oh, that’s cool. What came first—the mindfulness? Were you already a student of mindfulness when you became a parent, or did you turn to mindfulness when you found parenting to be challenging?

Hunter: Both. I was already a student of mindfulness. I started reading about mindfulness when I was a teenager, because I’ve always been a highly sensitive person. So I would have big ups and downs, and corresponding pits that I would fall into. I started reading about mindfulness, and I kept reading and reading, and it did help to read.

Then, maybe about ten years into my reading journey, I started an actual sitting meditation practice, and lo and behold, that helped a lot more than just reading about it. It really changed things for me. I used to fall into these pits of feeling like the world was overwhelming and feeling like I couldn’t handle life. That stopped happening. I had difficult feelings, but I wasn’t floored by them, grounded by them, or left incapacitated by them. That was a big change for me.

That happened maybe two years before I got pregnant with my first child. I remember being pregnant with Maggie and sitting in a meditation group with my big pregnant belly, patting myself on the back and thinking, “Oh, this is going to be great. This child is going to be so calm. Everything is going to be so awesome because we’re doing this meditation practice.” And it’s like—ugh. Right. Life kind of slaps you in the face and says, “You think you know what’s going to happen? That’s right. No, you don’t.”

Sarah: And the best parents are always the ones who don’t have kids, right? You always think, “This is how I’m going to do things when I’m a parent.” I remember when I was in my twenties, I was a Montessori assistant, and I remember thinking, “Oh my God, these parents are so crazy and intense.” I couldn’t understand it. And then I had my first kid and I was like, “Oh, I suddenly get it.” That love—and the triggering, too—that you probably never felt in any other ways.

Hunter: Yeah. And there are so many other factors as well. I remember taking Maggie to her Montessori preschool and dropping her off with a teacher I’d become friends with and got to know and love. I would get her in the door, turn around, and just cry out of relief to have three hours where I wasn’t “on”—where I wasn’t there to take the intensity of this child.

Sarah: For sure. So it sounds like at least your older daughter is on the more intense side of things.

Hunter: Yeah. She’s a lot like me. She’s very highly sensitive. She was always very intense from the beginning. Her birth was intense. Her babyhood was intense. Everything is intense about her—very sensitive.

And about a year and a half into her being born, I realized I needed something to help me weather this intensity: the anxiety, her emotional storms. I was getting myself to the YMCA, and I got her to tolerate—just barely—the YMCA childcare. But I was like, “I need more.” I needed to really turn to my mindfulness and bring it back, because it was so triggering for me.

Sarah: Wow. I’m glad you found it, and that you’re sharing it with everybody else. When you were talking before about big feelings being a challenge in your life—managing the feelings, I guess is a fair thing to say—that was actually one of my favorite chapters of your book: “Taking Care of Difficult Feelings.”

I was hoping we could focus on that today, because I think so much of our parenting struggles come from difficult feelings—either our child’s difficult feelings, or our own difficult feelings, or both. I love how you frame working with those feelings.

You talk about two common responses to difficult feelings that are the flip side of the same coin: blocking and becoming flooded. Can you talk about those two responses—what they are, what they look like, and how we might notice if those things are happening? And to be clear upfront: those are the things you want to move away from—either blocking or becoming flooded by difficult feelings. So maybe ground us in what those are first.

Hunter: Sure. I think blocking is something a lot of us are familiar with. That’s the “Don’t cry, go to your room,” right? It’s basically the instruction to not have those feelings. So we’re blocking those feelings out in some way.

And like anything, it’s not completely black and white. Sometimes there are times in life where it’s helpful to block feelings temporarily. We know that. But in general, we try to avoid feeling our feelings, because difficult feelings are uncomfortable.

So we block them. Blocking can include: I remember the chocolate stash in my pantry was pretty robust when Maggie was little. It can include drinking. It definitely includes the phone and the scrolling as a way of blocking our feelings. Anything we’re doing to distract ourselves or stuff down and not look at those feelings. Shopping. Doing things to distract ourselves.

Sarah: Or being too busy, too.

Hunter: Yeah. Over-busyness is certainly one—the endless to-do list. The sad thing about over-busyness is that we’re rewarded for that so much in our society. We’re rewarded for getting things done and productivity. And for women, it can be like being a good girl or being a strong independent woman is to get stuff done and to be busy.

And yet it has this insidious side where, especially with our feelings, we’re pushing through. We’re not feeling our feelings. We’re training ourselves to not be present. We’re training ourselves to always be in the future.

The sad side of that is: when we’re always in this to-do list—“I’m gonna go, I’m gonna do, I’m gonna go, I’m gonna do”—then we think, “Oh, I’m gonna get to our beach vacation and I’m gonna be really present with my kids.” And then you can’t, because you’ve trained your brain and your heart to always go and do. It feels unbearably restless to stop when you finally try to stop.

So blocking can look like all of those things.

And then the flip side is: the blocking builds up. You block and block and block. It becomes overwhelming. You have no tools to deal with and process these feelings. You’re just trying to push them away, and then suddenly they’re overwhelming. You drown in them. You’re completely flooded by them.

Flooding can look like completely drowning in sadness, misery, shame. It can also look like anger—your temper. There’s a bunch of stuff coming out that you can’t stop, because you’re completely flooded by these feelings and you have no way to deal with them.

A metaphor I like is that the feelings are like a big hamburger—a big juicy hamburger with cheese, and it’s gooey and disgusting. You’re eating this big emotional hamburger, but you have no digestive system because you’ve tried to shove it away. And then when you can’t, it becomes a big, disgusting mess. That’s my disgusting metaphor for not having the tools to digest and process those feelings.

Sarah: Do you ever listen to Anderson Cooper’s podcast? I can’t remember the name of it now. I know who he is, but it’s about grief. He has a podcast about grief—it’s called All There Is. It’s a really wonderful podcast. He talks a lot about how he never processed the grief of his father dying, and then his brother dying. And then his mother died, and he realized he’d gone his whole life without processing any of this grief, and it had really robbed him of the ability to feel other things.

Like joy. He’s a father with a couple of young kids, and it wasn’t until he started to process his grief that he was able to access the other, more beautiful emotions. And I think that’s— for people like me, where I admit I have a hard time feeling my feelings sometimes—I try to remind myself: you have to feel the hard things to also feel the good things.

Hunter: Yeah, it’s true. There’s the research by Brené Brown, and it comes out pretty unequivocally that you can’t selectively numb. You’re either numbing everything, or you’re feeling your feelings. And if you’re feeling your feelings, you’ve got to be able to process it.

For me, I was never unable to feel my feelings. I felt everything too much. I was never able to block out much. So I felt like I had no choice but to learn how to process these feelings. And when Maggie came along, the thing that was coming out for me was my temper.

I felt very ashamed of it. This is exactly how I decided not to parent. My brain, my choice, my willpower was that I would be this peaceful parent, gentle—and I was not. I was scaring her. I was aggressive. I was loud. I could see I scared her multiple times, and it was exactly what I didn’t want.

So I could really see: this isn’t like, “Pause and choose X, Y, Z instead.” It’s not that simple. I would say, “How do you pause?” It’s a process of changing bit by bit over time, and making a different kind of habit—energy in your body—learning how to tolerate the difficult things. It’s so much more than willpower.

It gave me a lot of compassion for myself and for other people who struggle, especially moms who couldn’t even say they had any anger—who felt so ashamed of even having it. Because it isn’t a choice. Nobody listening to this podcast or my podcast is thinking, “I think I’ll wake up on Tuesday and scream at Joey.” That’s not happening.

It’s much more than a choice. So I really had to understand it and understand how to be the parent that Maggie needed me to be. She clearly needed somebody steady—steadiness, a lot of steadiness, a lot of rhythm. She was not a go-with-the-flow kid, and I needed to become the parent she needed me to be.

Sarah: I’m lucky—for all the parents you’ve helped out there—that you had that experience. If you had a really easy kid, you might not ever have had to learn all of these lessons that you now share with other people. So it’s a blessing for everyone else that you had to go through the hard time.

Hunter: Yeah. Sometimes I joke that I had just the right amount of trauma: enough that I was able to deal with it in a way that I could break it down, understand it, and deal with it.

But it is really helpful to understand: there’s so much more than, “Here’s how you respond to your kid.” Those skillful ways to respond are wonderful to know, but they go completely out the window as soon as you’re activated—when your stress response is triggered—because your brain is in limbic fight, flight, or freeze mode.

It’s important to understand: this is a biological nervous system response. It’s not your fault. There’s not something wrong with you. This is innate—baked into every single human who is alive. There are tools to deal with it, but we have to stop shaming and blaming ourselves for it in order to take the necessary steps to study ourselves.

Sarah: One of the necessary steps you talk about is that instead of blocking or becoming flooded, we can learn mindful acceptance when we have difficult feelings. Can you talk a bit about what mindful acceptance is for those difficult feelings?

Hunter: Sure. This is really where a formal mindfulness practice shines. It gives us an incredible skill and tolerance, because as we sit—say we take up a sitting meditation practice—we sit there for five minutes or ten minutes. Our mind goes to other things. Our emotions happen. All this stuff happens. And we practice accepting it, observing it. We’re not really doing anything about it except accepting it and observing it. We watch it come, and we watch it go, because nothing stays around forever.

This builds a muscle of non-reactivity. Normally, when we feel a feeling in our body—the tension in our throat, the tightness in our shoulders, the “I’ve gotta get outta here” feeling—we act from it. That’s what our nervous system designed us to do. We’re designed to act on a threat or anxiety. We’re designed to move forward.

So it’s a weird, anti-evolutionary, slightly unnatural thing to sit and feel the thing you’re feeling. But paradoxically, as you sit with the “I’ve gotta get outta here” feeling, it lessens enormously and sometimes completely goes away.

Mindful acceptance is what happens when, for me, I’m practicing my meditation practice on a daily level in little bits—when I’m not quite so activated. There are little bits of: “I’m accepting this thought. I’m accepting these feelings. I’m noticing what’s arising. I’m seeing there’s some anxiety today.” I’m accepting it, and I’m sitting with it.

That means I’m not trying to push it away. I’m opening myself up. I’m saying, “Okay, yes, you are here. Yes, it’s okay that you’re here,” and I’m going to be curious about it.

Instead of saying, “What’s wrong with me for having this feeling?” I’m going to say, “What does this feel like?” This feels like some tension right in the middle of my chest, underneath my collarbones. It feels like a tickly feeling and a little discomfort—maybe slight queasiness. I’m going to observe it with curiosity, as if I’m an alien beamed down into my body. Like, “What is this?” Just curious: “Okay, yes, this is here.”

And as we say yes to this, we stop that instinctive blocking and pushing away.

In the Mindful Parenting Teacher Training program, when we work on this, I invite people to think of a difficult feeling and first try to say no to it—say in their heads, “No, no, no, no, no.” You can watch their faces tighten and their bodies tense up. Then I invite them to say, “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.” And you can see everyone relax. You can see the unclenching. It’s paradoxical: as we accept, “Okay, this is here—this anger, this sadness, this anxiety, whatever it is,” it lessens enormously just with that acceptance, and often can go away completely.

It loosens the grip to say yes—to open our arms wide and say yes to the difficult feelings, as much as we don’t want to.

Sarah: I love that. And I just want to point out: if you’re listening and you’re like, “I’ve made it to this age and I’ve always intended to have a mindfulness practice, but I don’t”—like me, raising his hand—I think you can still use everything you just said, even if you’re not going to start a daily mindfulness practice. In the moment, accepting the feelings you’re having, and everything you were saying, sounds so helpful to say about your child’s feelings too.

Hunter: Exactly. When we practice accepting our own feelings, then we can accept our child’s feelings. We want to accept their difficult feelings—maybe not the behavior, but the feelings. We may say the words out loud, but our bodies might tell a different story: that we’re not really accepting those feelings. Like, “Yes, it’s okay. I need to be mad at your brother.” And kids have incredible BS meters. They can see right through that.

So for us to really accept them, we have to first accept ourselves. We have to be able to accept our own feelings in order to truly accept our kids’ feelings. Because if we’re secretly judging our own humanity—shaming ourselves for our difficulty—if we’re harsh and mean to ourselves, that’s eventually going to come out. It won’t stay hidden. Those parts of ourselves come out. We live with our kids for at least eighteen years, and it will come out. You can’t fake it. Kids will see the faking it, if we’re trying to—

Sarah: One thing you talk about—I understood it as one of the practices you can put in place to move toward mindful acceptance—is that reflective listening piece with our children. That reflective listening is a tool to help you with more acceptance of feelings. Is that how you look at it, or how do you see those as related?

Hunter: Yeah, they’re totally related. When we practice reflective listening—like, “I see you look really frustrated”—say our kid comes to us and they’re mad at their brother. Instead of saying, “You shouldn’t be hitting your brother,” or being defensive, or trying to make the problem go away, we say, “Oh, wow. You are really upset right now. I can see this was really important to you.” Then they say, “Yeah, because he did this,” and blah, blah, blah. “Oh my gosh. Okay. Wow. This was really upsetting for you. Hold on. I’m going to listen to your brother too.”

As soon as we acknowledge those feelings in our kids, it takes the temperature down. It takes stress hormone levels down in the body—that’s what the research shows.

It’s similar for us. As soon as we’re acknowledging—this is what Dr. Dan Siegel calls “name it to tame it”—when we name something, it’s like magic happens. The left brain and right brain come together. The verbal part of the brain helps take down the temperature in the emotional part of the brain just by recognizing out loud the feelings.

In the same way we’re naming it with our children, we’re naming it with ourselves. That may be out loud with our children, or it may not be out loud within ourselves, but either way it provides release to name it.

Sarah: In my coaching, I’ve heard lots of parents say, “When I do that, it makes my child more upset,” or “It makes them aggressive.” If I say, “I can see you’re really upset right now,” or “really mad at your brother,” do you think that’s because they’re not really acknowledging their child’s feelings and they’re just saying a script? Or is there something about having feelings acknowledged that makes a child go further into the feelings? Or neither, or both? What’s your experience with that?

Hunter: It’s interesting, and it’s really hard to tell when we’re not there in the moment and we’re hearing from one parent’s point of view. I have heard that. And I think being acknowledged is helpful—but it depends on the form the acknowledgement takes.

Maybe it’s, “Oh honey,” with your arms open—communicating acceptance: “I see you and I hear you,” with your body and your mind.

Sometimes we can practice a tool like reflective listening with a script, but without congruence of mind and body—where inside we’re panicked: “The ship is going down and I’ve got to do something. I’m going to do that tool that Sarah and Hunter said to do.” We’re saying the words, but behind it is the panic of, “Oh my God, my kid’s out of control,” and our own nervous system is starting to freak out, like it’s an emergency.

That’s an incongruent message between your mind and your body. It has to be honest and real, otherwise it can’t really work.

That’s why foundation is so important. It can’t just be scripts on the outside. It has to be the foundation of some kind of practices, some kind of intention, that helps you steady and calm your nervous system on a daily basis—so you can access it in a moment like that.

I was with my daughter Maggie not that long ago. She must have been sixteen. She was really mad at me and my husband for something. I think it had to do with swimming scheduling. I forget what it was. She was really mad at us, and she was saying this to us near our living room entryway area.

At first I was listening, and I could feel the agitation in my body. So I got a broom and started to sweep the entryway while she was mad and upset with us. And I was like, “Oh, look at what I’m doing.” I could see myself. So I put it down. I sat down on the ottoman and practiced feeling what I was feeling—feeling the discomfort—without trying to say anything. I didn’t say anything. I was just there, practicing being present in myself with my sensations and my feelings, with what was going on, with this kind of verbal assault that was happening.

Within about thirty seconds of me sitting down and practicing this, she also sat down right next to me on the ottoman and slumped her body against mine. She started to wind down. Nothing special or miraculous was said. It was just the practice of being present—being steady—listening to her, taking in what she was saying, feeling the feelings.

Kids can feel that. We can feel when someone is congruent with what they’re feeling and doing and saying, and when someone isn’t.

So I often encourage parents: reflective listening is an incredible tool and it really can help a lot. But with some kids it doesn’t mean you’re going to say a lot of words. It means you’re going to practice the number one thing about reflective listening: mindfully being present. “I am present in my body. I am seeing and hearing you.” And then offering empathy—whether it’s even just a sound that isn’t a word. It doesn’t have to be a ton of words.

Sarah: I love that. The anecdote you shared with your daughter was a perfect example of co-regulation.

Hunter: Yeah.

Sarah: And being that nervous system anchor—you focused on your own nervous system, and it helped her too.

Hunter: Exactly. I wish I could have figured that out when she was two, but at least I figured it out when she was sixteen.

Sarah: So true. Was there anything you think would be helpful to add about taking care of difficult feelings that I haven’t asked you about? There’s so much great stuff in your book, but just for the sake of keeping the focus on what we’ve been talking about today.

Hunter: It’s important to remember that we have a lot of resistance to doing the practices of taking care of difficult feelings. I offer the RAIN practice and different things for looking at our difficult feelings. We have a lot of resistance to that, and that’s very natural.

But it really does help our kids. Just like in that anecdote I shared with Maggie, for us to model how to do that as a human. For every skill you want your kid to have in life, you have to do it first. You have to model it first. Kids are terrible at doing what we say, but they’re great at doing what we do. They’re great at imitating our behavior and seeing the way we live our lives as a model for how to live life.

So regardless of how old your kid is, it’s an incredible practice for you to do. And it’s a two-for-one: you help yourself, and you help your kid. It makes things less scary. I have less negative anticipation of things because I practice being present most of the time—and because I know that when I get into the present moment of something, I’ll survive it.

I’ve survived a lot of difficult feelings. I’ve felt a lot of difficult feelings, and I’ll be okay. I can tolerate a lot of different difficult things. And it makes me more present for the positive things. It makes me more able to fully feel joy and excitement, and to join in their joy and excitement. So it has a lot of benefits.

Sarah: I love that. You were just talking about resilience—knowing that you can handle difficult feelings. A lot of parents mistake resilience for not getting upset, but I always tell parents: no, it’s not that you don’t get upset, it’s that you get upset and you recover. And the path to that is always going through the upset first.

I love when you talk about reflective listening and the empathy piece. In peaceful parenting we always talk about welcoming feelings, and I think that’s the key to taking care of difficult feelings: welcoming them, and knowing that every time you survive it, you become a little bit more resilient.

Hunter: Absolutely. There are a couple different ways to welcome them. One thing I want to point out—because I think it’s so beautiful—is that I studied mindfulness for many years, and my main teacher was the Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh, who has since passed.

What he used to say about difficult feelings is that we want to imagine ourselves holding them in our arms like a baby: “Oh, hello, my anger. I’m going to take care of you. It’s okay that you’re here. My anxiety, I’m going to take care of you. I’m here for you.”

That’s such a beautiful image of how to accept and take care of our feelings. We’ve got to take care of these feelings. They’re kind of like toddlers tugging at our legs, and they’re not going to go away until they are seen and heard.

So you’ve got to get some kind of process.

Sarah: I love that. Thank you so much. There’s a question I ask all my podcast guests: if you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what would you tell yourself?

Hunter: I would tell myself to slow down. I don’t have to get it all done. I can give myself time to figure out this experience, and not rush forward.

Sarah: Love that. Where’s the best place for folks to go and find out more about you and what you do?

Hunter: You can find Raising Good Humans anywhere books are sold, and the Mindful Mama Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. I’m at mindfulmamamentor.com, and there are lots of freebies there, and podcasts and articles, et cetera.

Sarah: Great. We’ll link to all those in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us.

Hunter: Thank you, Sarah. It’s been really fun.

Sarah: If this episode brought up that familiar feeling of “I know what to do—why is it still so hard?” I want to pause and say that this struggle is incredibly common, and it doesn’t mean you’re failing. On Wednesday, I’m hosting a live workshop called When You Know Better, but Still Yell, where we focus on understanding what happens in those moments and how to interrupt yelling and repair without shame. If that sounds supportive to you, you can find more information in the show notes or go to reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

Raising Good Humans: A Mindful Guide to Breaking the Cycle of Reactive Parenting and Raising Kind, Confident Kids

View Details

This week’s episode is a conversational invitation rather than a full podcast episode. We’re talking about why yelling happens even when you know better — and why willpower alone isn’t the answer.

If you’ve ever felt ashamed, frustrated, or confused about why old patterns show up under stress, you’re not alone. We also share details about a live workshop, When You Know Better but Still Yell, for parents who want support with regulation and repair in real-life moments. Happening on Weds. Jan 21

Workshop details and registration are HERE

or go to https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I bring back one of my favourite holiday episodes, which is an interview with my kids, where we talk about ‘people, not stuff’.

Every year around the holidays, I hear from parents who are worried their kids are too focused on presents, too greedy, or too materialistic — and they’re afraid they’re getting something wrong. I made this episode to offer a long-term perspective.

I interviewed my own kids (then 14, 17, and 20) about what holidays and gifts felt like when they were little — and what actually mattered as they got older.

Us last year at Christmas- on one of the Christmas Day walks we discussed on the podcast:

In the episode, we talk about why “wanting stuff” is normal in childhood, how values really develop over time, and why parents can relax a lot more than they think.

🎉🎂 Also- today is my birthday!

If this podcast, our posts, or our work has helped you and your family, and you want to give back to us, you can help cover the costs of our free content by supporting us on Substack for the cost of a fancy coffee a month.

Or you can support us- without spending- any money by doing any or all of the following:

follow the podcast and leave a 5 star review and rating on your podcast player app
leave a Google review of our work HERE
forward a newsletter or podcast post to a friend
share a post or a podcast episode to your preferred content sharing spot :)

My gift to you is an ad free episode today, which is what you get for every episode if you support us on Substack!

Thank YOU for being here!!

xx Sarah (and Corey!)

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

We talk about:

2:00 — Intro: replay episode + why parents worry about “greedy/materialistic” kids
3:00 — Holiday schedule update + invitation to email podcast ideas/guest suggestions
3:34 — Why this episode: parents’ concerns about consumerism + interviewing Sarah’s kids
4:00 — Important context: privilege, money, and why this worry comes from a privileged place
5:00 — Two practical ways to handle privilege: Santa gifts + donating new presents
7:00 — Meet Maxine (14): how holiday meaning shifts with age (family time, traditions, coziness)
11:38 — “Ungrateful” little kids: why it’s normal + what parents shouldn’t panic about
13:23 — What helps long-term: building traditions + experiences as gifts
16:34 — Meet Asa (17): growing out of the “wanting stuff” stage + values changing over time
21:05 — Middle school + fitting in: when brand-name wanting peaks (and why)
22:30 — What parents should do: keep kids grounded + relax
23:01 — Meet Lee (20): consumerism awareness, “people not stuff,” and the post-holiday letdown
32:00 — Gratitude + privilege: why kids can’t fully grasp it yet, and how it comes with time
33:31 — Reassurance: if you’re worried about this, you’re probably already doing fine
34:34 — Wrap-up: “the parenting podcast paradox” + holiday wishes

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Here’s the polished transcript of the interview-

Today’s episode is a replay of an episode from four years ago.

So many parents get worried, especially at this time of year, that their kids are materialistic and greedy and will never have good values. I thought you could use a little window into the future, and it would be helpful for you to see where we are in my family and what it’s like as kids get older.

So I interviewed my kids about their experiences growing up with presents and holidays and stuff. So if your kid has a case of the greedy, you’ll see, if you listen to my kids, that it won’t last forever. At the time of the interviews, they were 14, 17, and 20. Today they’re 18, 21, and 24. Things really do shift as your kids get older.

My older two kids live on their own—and they have for a few years—and so far, all they’ve said they want for Christmas is socks. Things really do change.

If this holiday support episode is helpful and you aren’t on my email list, make sure you check out the other posts that we have on Substack. As I mentioned, just search up Substack and Sarah Rosensweet and you’ll find us.

My team and I are going to be taking a bit of time off for the holidays. We will be back in the new year with new episodes of this podcast. And if you have any ideas for the podcast, or any guests that you’d like to have on, or you would like to be coached on the podcast, shoot me an email: sarah@sarahrosensweet.com.

I’d love to hear from you about any ideas you have for the podcast—what you’d like to have coming up in the new year.

Here we go back to the podcast. Enjoy this replay, whether it’s your first time hearing it or if you’ve heard it before.

Sarah: Today’s episode is a response to some parents’ questions and concerns that I received when I did a call-out asking people what they were concerned about over the holidays. And some parents were really feeling stressed about materialism and consumerism of the holidays, and their kids getting too many presents or wanting too much stuff.

So I interviewed my kids about it—what their perspective was, having gone through the “I want more presents” stage, and now they’re teenagers. They’re 14, 17, and one of them’s not a teenager anymore—he’s 20. So I interviewed them because they’ve been through it, and I’ve been through it with them.

But before we dive into the interviews, I just want to acknowledge that this is a very privileged position—that we have the privilege of being able to be concerned that our kids have too much stuff, or they’re getting too many presents, or that they’re worried too much about getting things and being able to buy things.

For a number of years when our kids were little, my husband was a student and I was a stay-at-home mom, and we really didn’t have any money. We really had to watch every penny. But we still had privilege because we got government assistance—child tax benefit. We live in Canada where we have socialized medicine, so we didn’t need to worry about health insurance.

And we also had the family safety net privilege, which was that we knew if we ever were really in dire straits, our parents would help us out.

And our kids had privilege even though we didn’t have money in those years, because they got a lot of presents from their grandparents. I think we mention that in the interviews that are coming up.

So my husband and I—we didn’t have much money, but we didn’t need to worry about buying them gifts because they had five sets of grandparents. Hello, divorce and remarriage.

So I just really wanted to acknowledge that I am speaking from a place of privilege, my children are speaking from a place of privilege, and those parents who reached out to me concerned about too many presents and materialism and “What are we gonna do when our kids just want so much stuff?”—they’re also speaking from a place of privilege.

And many, many, many parents don’t have that. They don’t have enough money to buy presents for their kids. And those kids might be in school with kids who get tons of presents at Christmas.

So two small things that we can do—and I know these are really just a drop in the bucket—but while I’m here, I’m just going to make two suggestions for all of us listening who are coming from a place of privilege.

One is that we don’t get big presents from Santa. If we do celebrate Christmas and we do the Santa tradition, we don’t give our children big presents from Santa. That’s one thing, because what about kids who are getting hardly anything, if anything at all, from Santa?

Another is that we make donations. Those of us who have privilege—we either make donations to food banks, or we make donations by buying new presents. It’s great to donate things that your kids no longer play with. But what I’m asking here is that we donate new presents to organizations that will then distribute them to kids who are less financially privileged.

I know that’s not a ton, and I always feel kind of nervous and vulnerable when I talk about things like this. I’m still learning and I’m not perfect. However, I just wanted to address the issue of privilege—financial privilege—before we dive in.

So let me introduce you to my kids. If you didn’t hear them in episode one of the podcast, when they were talking about what it was like to be raised by peaceful parenting, you might wanna go back and give that a listen. But let me introduce you to Maxine, who’s 14; Asa, who’s 17; and Lee, who’s 20.

You’re gonna hear each of their perspectives on stuff and presents and materialism and consumerism, and what they think parents should do to raise kids who have great values.

Okay, let’s dive in. Hi, Maxine. Hello. Welcome to the podcast.

Maxine: Hi.

Sarah: Can you introduce yourself?

Maxine: I’m Maxine, and I’m your child.

Sarah: How old are you? I know how old you are, but other people don’t.

Maxine: I’m 14.

Sarah: All right. So do you remember when you were little, what was the best thing about birthdays—Christmas, holidays?

Maxine: Oh… presents, I guess.

Sarah: I think that’s what—well, I—

Maxine: I probably shouldn’t say that, because I know that’s, like, what the whole podcasting is about.

Sarah: No, it’s okay. That’s what I’m trying to normalize. The fact that for little kids, it’s all about presents, right?

Maxine: Yeah.

Sarah: So do you think you’re still in that phase at 14—that it’s mostly about the presents?

Maxine: Well, not really. I like spending time with you guys—especially since Lee moved out.

Sarah: So you’re looking forward to having your brother come home at Christmas. What else is meaningful to you about the Christmas holiday?

Maxine: Well, literally you and Dad don’t have to work that much when it’s—so we get to spend, like, the whole day together. And we always have a nice breakfast, and sometimes we get to help you with that and stuff like that.

Sarah: One of my favorite things the past couple of years that we’ve been doing is the family walk on Christmas.

Maxine: Yeah. It’s fun. And we always take Emmy, and she’s always so happy to be with all of us.

Sarah: Yeah, because she never gets all five of us to take her for a walk at once.

Maxine: Oh—Emmy. Emmy’s our dog, by the way, if you don’t know that.

Sarah: So do you still like the presents?

Maxine: Yeah, I still like presents. But, like, who doesn’t like presents? Even you and Dad like presents.

Sarah: That’s true. But the time with family—you’re starting to appreciate that more as you’re getting older. Do you ever remember getting a present you didn’t like when you were a kid?

Maxine: No, but I remember being disappointed that I didn’t get presents that I wanted.

Sarah: Oh yeah? Tell me about that.

Maxine: When I thought Santa was real, I would make lists and I wouldn’t get all the stuff, and I would be kind of sad.

Sarah: Yeah. And how do you think that affected you as a person?

Maxine: I don’t think it really mattered. I think I was just a little kid who wanted to have all the presents that I wanted.

Sarah: Yeah. Do you think that’s pretty normal?

Maxine: Yeah.

Sarah: Do you think parents should worry about that?

Maxine: No. I think you shouldn’t worry. But I think it’s weird if your kids aren’t excited about presents and don’t want lots and lots of presents, because that’s a normal thing for kids to want.

Sarah: And so what do you think happens as you get older, and now you’re like, “Yeah, I still like presents, but that’s not the most important thing.”

Maxine: I think when you’re little, you just don’t understand what the holidays—and what that is all about. But when you get older, you realize that it’s more about just being able to spend time with people and stuff.

And it’s also nice to give people presents instead of just always getting presents.

Sarah: What have been your favorite presents that you’ve given?

Maxine: I don’t know—like when I give my brothers records or stuff like that, and it just seems to make them happy, then it makes me feel good.

Sarah: Do you remember making presents?

Maxine: Yeah. I made presents—like this year or last year. I made those little tree decorations for my brothers and you and my dad and all the grandparents and stuff.

Sarah: That’s right. Those were nice.

Maxine: Those little candy cane things.

Sarah: Yeah, those were sweet.

Maxine: Also, I like Christmas because it’s all nice and cozy. And just—like on Christmas or just any holidays that we do as a family—but especially Christmas, when we’re all sitting around and listening to music and it’s all cozy in our house and stuff, and then we can look outside and stuff like that.

Sarah: I love that too. I love decorating the tree and then sitting and looking at it afterwards, having hot chocolate.

Maxine: Yeah.

Sarah: You know, that was a tradition that I did growing up too.

Maxine: Cool. Also sometimes on Christmas—or mostly Christmas or New Year’s—when our grandparents call to just say “Happy New Year” or “Merry Christmas,” that’s nice. And you get to talk to them.

Usually I call your mom, and I always show her all my presents and stuff.

Sarah: You know, Nana listens to the podcast. Do you want to say hi to her?

Maxine: Hi Nana.

Sarah: One of the other things that parents were worried about—and why I’m making this podcast—is that sometimes little kids seem really ungrateful. Like they get a whole giant pile of presents and then they’re like, “I wanted the blah blah blah,” or “I didn’t get that,” or “Why did he get more?”

What do you think those parents need to hear when they have little kids? What do they need to hear from an older kid?

Maxine: Like I said before, when I would not get presents that I wanted, but I would still get other presents—I would be sad or unhappy about it, that I didn’t get the other presents that I wanted. But after, I would realize how fun the presents I actually got were.

And honestly, if you have a four-year-old and they’re upset about not getting something, then they’re literally four. So you can’t really think that they’re ungrateful, because they don’t even know what that word means. They probably don’t even know how to say that word.

So you can’t really worry about them being ungrateful, because they don’t even know what that is.

Sarah: Right. And they don’t have anything to compare it to, right?

Maxine: Yeah, because they’re literally four.

Sarah: So if parents are really worried about that—if they think their kids think that toys are the most important thing—what would you say to those parents?

Maxine: Well, kids are just kids. I’m still a kid, but I know that presents aren’t the only thing that’s good about holidays and stuff. But I’m still learning. And if your kid is younger than me, then chances are they’ll know even less about that.

So honestly, kids are just kids, and they just think presents are so cool and exciting that they don’t know there’s more to it than presents.

Sarah: Right. Do you think there’s anything parents could or should do to teach their kids that there are things more important than presents?

Maxine: Well, you could do traditions, like what we do—like where you go on a walk, or you decorate your tree as a family or something. Or if you celebrate Hanukkah, doing little traditions for that and stuff. So when they’re older, they’ll see, “Oh, when we did all those things, those were nice traditions that my parents did.”

Sarah: Can you think of any other traditions that were important to you?

Maxine: Decorating cookies.

Sarah: I was thinking about that too. That’s a lot of fun. I’m really looking forward to doing that this year.

Maxine: And I already promised one of my teachers, Ms. Miller, that I was going to give her cookies. So we have to do it.

Sarah: We absolutely will, because she loves sugar.

Maxine: Yeah, she’s sugar.

Sarah: She does. Yeah.

I think you’ve always liked giving presents too. Is there anything else you think parents should know if they’re worried about their kids thinking that stuff is more important than people?

Maxine: Honestly, just what I said before: kids are just kids, and they don’t know anything other than presents. So don’t think it’s a big deal, because eventually they’ll realize more things about holidays, like I did.

But if your kid’s, like, six and they’re so excited about the presents and that’s all they can talk about, then honestly that’s a normal kid behavior.

Sarah: Right. And not worry about it.

Maxine: Well, not, like, normal, but a lot of kids are like that.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think if we can be excited for them too, right?

Maxine: Yeah. If you can show them that it’s so great that they’re excited about it, and it can be like, “I’m excited too,” then they’ll see it’s not something bad. But if you tell them, “No, you shouldn’t be this excited about presents. That’s not allowed…”

Sarah: That’s right.

Hey, do you remember—this is one thing I forgot to ask your brothers about—do you remember times when you’ve gotten an experience instead of a thing you can hold in your hands for a present?

Maxine: People have given me a ticket to go do something with me or something. Just for fun.

Sarah: I think Mimi took you to a show once.

Maxine: Yeah.

Sarah: And Uncle Les used to do sleepovers and movie night.

Maxine: Yeah.

Sarah: Do you think that’s a good idea? Do you think kids like that?

Maxine: Yeah. I liked—huh? But I’m not a normal kid.

Sarah: You’re not a normal kid? Why aren’t you a normal kid?

Maxine: Because I’m not. I don’t know how to explain it.

Sarah: I think you’re a pretty normal kid.

Maxine: No, I’m extraordinary.

Sarah: You’re also hilarious.

Maxine: Thanks, darling.

Sarah: You are welcome. Love you. You look funny with those big headphones on your head.

Maxine: Yeah, I’m sure.

Sarah: I do love you, kid.

Maxine: Oh, I love you.

Sarah: Hello. Okay. Okay, let’s get started. Can you introduce yourself?

Asa: My name’s Asa. I’m your son. I’m 17.

Sarah: Thanks for coming on the podcast.

Asa: Yeah, no problem.

Sarah: So when you were little, you and your older brother Lee used to spend hours looking at the Lego catalog and circling all the things that you wanted.

Asa: Uh-huh.

Sarah: Do you remember that?

Asa: Yeah.

Sarah: And I remember Dad used to really worry about that. He used to worry that you guys—your values were out of place, and you were gonna be super greedy kids and not care about the right things.

Asa: Right.

Sarah: He was right?

Asa: Yeah.

Sarah: Are you super greedy?

Asa: No.

Sarah: Now, I remember one year when you were around 11 and I said, “The grandparents are starting to ask what you want for Christmas,” because they wanted to get you something. And you stopped and you thought, and you said, “Mom, I think I have a pretty good life. I can’t think of anything I want.”

Do you remember that?

Asa: Yeah.

Sarah: So how did you go from the five-year-old who wanted everything in the Lego catalog to—

Asa: I think I kind of just grew out of it, I guess, is the best way to say it. I don’t know. My brain chemistry changed.

Sarah: Do you think that’s typical of 17-year-olds? Do you feel like most kids your age don’t want that much stuff?

Asa: Yeah. The thing is, I don’t really play with toys anymore. So when I was little, you can never have too many toys. You just get more and more and more, and they’re all good.

But now, thinking about it, the only thing I’m missing in my daily life is a backpack big enough to put all my stuff in. So that’s, like, the only thing I want. When I think about it—what would make my life better—the only thing I can think of is a bigger backpack.

Sarah: A bigger backpack. Okay.

Asa: Bigger backpack.

Sarah: I think Santa has gotten wind of that, so you don’t have too long to wait.

I feel like you’re sort of unusual for kids your age in terms of not being into brand-name stuff. Do you think that’s true?

Asa: Yeah. I would say that’s true.

Sarah: Why do you think that is?

Asa: When you get older, you value different things. Your values change. You don’t really care so much about accumulating plastic chachkes, and you’re more focused on just having a good time.

Sarah: I know you don’t want little toys from the dollar store or Lego kits anymore, but why don’t you want brand-name sneakers? You haven’t even gotten sneakers in, like, two years, right?

Asa: I’ve evolved past that.

Sarah: Okay, but what is it? I’m trying to say: I think you’re unusual for someone 17, in grade 12, who’s not like, “Oh, I need these sneakers and that expensive thing and the latest iPhone.”

I want to hear anything you think would be helpful for parents who want to make sure their kids don’t grow up greedy and materialistic.

Asa: They won’t. They won’t. Or maybe they will, but it doesn’t really—some people are like that and some people aren’t.

Everybody when they’re little wants Lego and wants to look in the Lego catalog. Whatever you do then is not gonna shape that. Maybe your kid will grow up and be greedy, but you telling them that they shouldn’t look at the Lego catalog isn’t gonna change that.

It’s not guaranteed everybody’s gonna grow out of it. Whatever you try and do isn’t gonna change that. It’s already kind of preset. Let the kids do whatever they want, and then maybe they’ll be greedy, maybe they won’t. But it won’t really have any effect on it.

Sarah: So you’re saying it’s other things—not what they want when they’re little—that decide how they turn out.

Asa: Yeah.

Sarah: I think it’s pretty normal for little kids to want lots of stuff. It’s hardwired, evolutionarily, for them to want stuff—because if they were just quiet and meek in a corner, everyone would forget about them.

Asa: Yeah.

Sarah: Do you remember when you started to feel grateful for your life?

Asa: I am grateful now, and I probably wasn’t when I was three. So somewhere along the line—maybe somewhere between three and 17—maybe five years ago. I don’t know. It’s sort of a gradual thing.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s hard to pinpoint.

You said that parents telling their kids not to want stuff isn’t going to make a difference. But do you think you internalized what was important in our family, and because Dad and I aren’t really into brand names and buying stuff, that’s how you developed too?

Asa: Yeah. I would say I cared about the stuff most when I was in grade six and seven, and I felt really weird telling you guys that I wanted shirts with company logos on them and stuff. It just felt out of place in our family.

Sarah: Why do you think it was grade six and seven that you wanted the most brand-name stuff?

Asa: Because brain development-wise, that’s when you want to fit in the most.

Sarah: That makes sense. And at a certain point, you just…

One of the things I admire about you is that you don’t care what other people think—in a good way. You have your own idea of what you like and what’s cool. But when you were little, what was the most important or meaningful thing about Christmas or birthdays?

Asa: I guess the anticipation. The anticipation of all of the presents and celebration and whatnot. When you actually get there, it’s like whatever, but it gives you something to look forward to leading up to it. That was probably the most important thing.

Sarah: The excitement of the possibilities of what you might get and do.

Asa: Yeah.

Sarah: What about now? Has anything changed?

Asa: Well, I used to have birthday parties when I was a little kid. I don’t really do that anymore, so birthdays definitely don’t feel as significant.

Christmas is kind of the same mold, but again, I’m not so much into, like, “Which Lego am I gonna get this year?” So I don’t know. I guess now I value the food and the family and everything else. So Christmas, beyond the presents.

Sarah: Nice. Well, thanks, Ace. Was there anything you think parents should know about this topic?

Asa: Make sure your kids are staying somewhat grounded to reality, but just relax too, because they’re little kids.

Sarah: Thanks, Ace. Bye.

Asa: No problem. Bye. Love you.

Sarah: Love you too.

Lee: Hello.

Sarah: Hi, Lee. Welcome to the podcast.

Lee: Thank you for having me.

Sarah: Can you introduce yourself?

Lee: Hi, I’m Lee, your oldest son.

Sarah: How old are you now?

Lee: 20.

Sarah: 20 and—

Lee: A half.

Sarah: 20 and a half. We missed your half-birthday this year.

And for anyone listening who doesn’t celebrate Christmas, I think this applies to birthdays or any other holidays where kids get presents. Looking back on your childhood, do you remember really wanting to get presents and lobbying to get presents when you were little?

Lee: Yeah, definitely. Next question.

Sarah: I asked your brother this—do you remember looking at the Lego catalog, the two of you pouring over it and circling everything you wanted?

Lee: Oh yeah, for sure. I think you and Dad tried to moderate that. I remember you talking to us about consumerism. I think I understood that stuff, but I still just wanted presents. I think that’s how it is for most kids.

Sarah: For sure. It really stressed Dad out. He was worried about all the wanting, like a lot of the parents who wrote with concerns about this.

But you’re a person now at 20 who I would say is pretty non-materialistic. When did you become aware of consumerism and materialism?

Lee: I think I was aware as long as I can remember. Definitely you taught me early, but I don’t think it sank in until I was a young teenager.

When was the first time I was like, “Oh, you don’t need to get me any presents”? I don’t know. By the way, you always still do, but I’m pretty sure I always tell you now that you don’t need to.

Sarah: Yeah. We get you presents because we want to get you presents, not because we feel like we have to.

Lee: But when I was a kid, I wasn’t like, “Oh, you don’t have to get me any presents.” I wanted presents very much.

Sarah: For sure. Do you ever remember—

Lee: I think it was enough times… Do you talk to your parents about the post-holiday letdown? We haven’t talked about that yet, but experiencing that enough made me feel like, “Okay, maybe presents are not the name of the game.”

Sarah: Say more about the post-holiday letdown.

Lee: Somewhere around 3:00 p.m. on Christmas, you’d be like, “Well, that was that. Back to my comfortable life, I guess.” But normal. You’d stop feeling excited and you’d feel like, “Was I really that excited?” Because once the suspense is gone—who said that? The anticipation is always better than the actual thing. Some philosopher said that.

Sarah: That’s so funny because that’s what your brother said. When I asked what he remembered most, he said: the anticipation.

Lee: Yeah, for sure.

Sarah: So what would you say to parents who are worried their kids always want more stuff? And even the post-holiday letdown can look like crying about not having more presents at three o’clock.

Lee: I would say it’s okay. The kids are victims of the mass media, but you’re probably already doing your best to counteract that, and just have faith. If you’re generally raising a conscientious kid, they’ll eventually probably come around.

How many adults do you know who are obsessed with presents?

Lee: Well… some are. Some people are very materialistic. But generally people grow out of it, I think.

Sarah: There are tons of people who get the new iPhone with every update, or who want the newest, fanciest thing and brand-name stuff.

Lee: Okay. I would say then: you guys really hammered it at home with me. And that’s probably why I think what I do now—“People, not stuff,” the old mantra.

Sarah: People, not stuff. That really was a mantra in your childhood, wasn’t it?

Lee: Yes, probably.

Sarah: And for anyone listening, don’t get me wrong—you guys got a lot of presents for Christmas.

Lee: Oh yeah.

Sarah: Not from us necessarily, because we didn’t have much money when you were growing up. Just a lot of grandparents. You guys have five sets of grandparents—ten grandparents—and then aunties and uncles and big family.

I wouldn’t say you were spoiled. Do you think you were spoiled?

Lee: I don’t know. Maybe. I think it’s less about having things and more about having a bad attitude than anything else.

Sarah: Yeah. I think spoiled is when parents can’t say no and they just give everything. You may have had grandparents who couldn’t say no and gave you everything.

Lee: Yeah, that makes sense.

Sarah: Looking back, what was really meaningful for you about Christmas or your birthday?

Lee: I couldn’t tell you what was really meaningful—just the thing itself. You’re very conditioned to be excited for those things when you’re young. Santa and presents.

Sarah: So what about now? What do you like about the holidays?

Lee: I don’t want to say I dislike them. I don’t ever decorate, and I play Christmas songs when I get paid too.

Sarah: You play them for free at our house.

Lee: Yeah. On your request. That’s true.

I don’t know. I’m pretty agnostic about it. I don’t mind it. I mind it in November when people get excited about it, but when it’s actually the season, it’s cool.

Same with my birthday. It’d be cool to do something, but it always ends up being pretty low-key. I don’t think that’s positive or negative—it varies from person to person.

Sarah: Is there anything you’re excited about with Christmas coming?

Lee: I guess it still feels nice—like the intentional family time. And the new Lego and—

Sarah: Sorry, spoiler: you’re not getting any Lego this year.

Lee: Okay. Family time, yeah. Seeing extended family. I don’t know if we’re going to this year. I think Christmas is cool.

Sarah: Do you remember making presents for your siblings when you were growing up?

Lee: I remember making Asa the piggy bank.

Sarah: Do you remember the sock monkeys you made them?

Lee: Oh, vaguely.

Sarah: Those were a lot of work.

Lee: Yeah, I forgot about that. I don’t remember if they liked them.

Sarah: They did. We still have them.

Lee: Yeah.

Sarah: Changing gears a bit—from holidays to consumerism in general—do you remember when you came home from Montessori and said you wanted some company—

Lee: Yeah, I know what you’re about to say. Company shirts?

Sarah: Yeah.

Lee: Okay.

Sarah: Do you remember why you wanted company shirts?

Lee: Because it was cool.

Sarah: We thought you meant shirts that said GAP on them or something. But when Dad took you shopping at a thrift store—

Lee: I just wanted shirts with pictures on them.

Sarah: Do you remember the trip?

Lee: Yeah. I remember getting a Superman button-up. I don’t remember the others.

Sarah: I think you got shirts that said T-Rex.

Lee: I couldn’t read, so I didn’t know what a company versus just a picture was.

Sarah: What do you think that did for you?

Lee: Made me cool. I have more friends. I’m joking.

I don’t know. I remember being happy to have a cool wardrobe. If you want to talk consumerism, I think I still like getting cool clothes. A lot of people do. Although I don’t go shopping that much.

I do tend to buy secondhand clothes, and that’s just a style question. I think that fateful shopping trip—we went to a Goodwill or something, right?

I remember going there as a child. And then I had one or two years in the beginning of high school where I wanted to get all my clothes from H&M, and then I just went back to Value Village after that.

Sarah: Yeah, I remember that. Rebellious years of going to the mall.

So another thing parents worry about is that their kids aren’t appreciative or grateful for everything they have in their life. And I personally think—of course they’re not.

Lee: Yeah. Of course they’re not. They’re little dummies.

Sarah: No. I don’t think they’re little dummies. I think they just don’t have anything to compare it to.

Lee: Yeah, for sure. That’ll come with time.

Sarah: Do you remember starting to feel appreciative and grateful for what you have?

Lee: Do I remember becoming conscious of it? It always was something you guys talked about. It slowly, very gradually became less abstract as I got more world experience.

I don’t totally remember what you said, but the message was: “You are fortunate.”

But I never thought, “I’m not grateful.” When you’re a kid, you just don’t understand much. How could you expect them to understand something as nuanced as gratitude? Or privilege.

Sarah: Yeah, privilege.

Lee: That’s what I’m talking about. It comes with time. You still have to make an effort to show them that, because I definitely know older people who don’t really get that. And if you don’t, you’re one of them.

Sarah: So it would be fair to say that the parents who are concerned about wanting their kids to be appreciative of their privilege, wanting their kids to be grateful, and not too consumerist—

Lee: You’re probably already doing fine. Exactly. Talk to them about it, and within a decade they’ll get it. And within a decade, they’ll become the preachy ones and you’ll get annoyed.

They’ll start lecturing you about capitalism, and you’ll be like, “Gosh darn it, what have I done?”

Maxine: I think that’s happened to us a few times.

Lee: All I was trying to say—I wasn’t trying to say don’t get your kids presents. I think I’ve been pretty clear. I never minded when you guys talked about privilege and stuff when I was a kid. Even if I did mind it, that would be more reason to reinforce those points.

I think the golden rule of parenting podcasts is: if you’re concerned about this stuff, you’re already probably doing pretty well. And if you don’t think about it, then your kid is the one that needs help.

Sarah: Yeah. In any case, those are not the people who are probably listening to this.

Lee: That’s the parenting podcast paradox.

Sarah: Okay, let’s close by saying—

Lee: You better leave that in.

Sarah: I’ll leave it in: “Parenting podcast paradox.” The Peaceful Parenting Podcast paradox—and add another P in there.

Okay. Well, thanks, Lee, for coming on the podcast.

Lee: Thanks for having me.

Sarah: Love you.

Lee: Happy holidays to all your listeners.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I speak with Shireen Rizvi, PhD and Jesse Finkelstein, PsyD, about their book Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships.

We discuss what Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) is, how it can help both ourselves and our kids with big feelings, and get into some of the skills it teaches including distress tolerance, check the facts, and mindfulness.

Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!

We talk about:

6:00 What is DBT?
11:00 The importance of validation
13:00 How do parents manage their own big feelings?
16:00 How do you support a kid with big feelings, and where is the place for problem solving?
23:00 Managing the urge to fix things for our kids!
26:00 What is distress tolerance?
28:50 “Check the facts” is a foundational skill
34:00 Mindfulness is a foundation of DBT
36:45 How the skills taught through DBT are universal

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships by Shireen Rizvi and Jesse Finkelstein
Shireen Rizvi’s website
Jesse Finkelstein’s websites axiscbt and therahive

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram
Facebook Group
YouTube
Website
Join us on Substack
Newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can’t go where you don’t want them to go and they aren’t watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HERE

Podcast transcript:

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today we have two guests who co-authored a book called Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships.

And you may be wondering why we’re talking about that on a parenting podcast. This was a really great conversation with Shireen Rizvi and Jesse Finkelstein, the co-authors of the book, about all of the skills of DBT, which is a modality of therapy. We talked about the skills they teach in DBT and how we can apply them to parenting.

They talk about how emotional dysregulation is the cause of so much of the pain and suffering in our lives. And I think as a parent, you will recognize that either your own emotional dysregulation or your child’s is often where a lot of issues and conflict come from.

So what they’ve really provided in this book—and given us a window into in this conversation—is how we can apply some of those skills toward helping ourselves and helping our children with big feelings, a.k.a. emotional dysregulation. It was a really wonderful conversation, and their book is wonderful too. We’ll put a link to it in the show notes and encourage you to check it out.

There are things you can listen to in this podcast today and then walk away and use right away. One note: you’ll notice that a lot of what they talk about really overlaps with the things we teach and practice inside of Peaceful Parenting.

If this episode is helpful for you, please share it with a friend. Screenshot it and send it to someone who could use some more skill-building around big emotions—whether they’re our own big emotions or our child’s. Sharing with a friend or word of mouth is a wonderful way for us to reach more people and more families and help them learn about peaceful parenting.

It is a slow process, but I really believe it is the way we change the world. Let’s meet Shireen and Jesse.

Hi, Jesse. Hi, Shireen. Welcome to the podcast.

Jesse: Thank you so much for having us.

Sarah: Yeah. I’m so excited about your book, which I understand is out now—Real Skills for Real Life: A DBT Guide to Navigating Stress, Emotions, and Relationships. First of all, I love the format of your book. It’s super easy to read and easy to use. I already thought about tearing out the pages with the flow charts, which are such great references—really helpful for anyone who has emotions. Basically anyone who has feelings.

Jesse: Oh, yes.

Sarah: Yeah. I thought they were great, and I think this is going to be a helpful conversation for parents. You’ve written from a DBT framework. Can you explain what DBT is and maybe how it’s different from CBT? A lot of people have heard more about cognitive behavior therapy than dialectical behavior therapy.

Shireen: Sure. I would first say that DBT—Dialectical Behavior Therapy—is a form of cognitive behavioral therapy. So they’re in the same category. Sometimes we hear therapists say, “I do DBT, but I don’t do CBT,” and from my perspective, that’s not really possible, because the essence of dialectical behavior therapy is CBT. CBT focuses on how our thoughts, behaviors, and emotions all go together, and how changing any one of those affects the others.

That’s really the core of DBT—the foundation of CBT. But what happened was the person who developed DBT, Marsha Linehan—she was actually my grad school advisor at the University of Washington—developed this treatment because she was finding that standard CBT was not working as well as she wanted it to for a particular population. The group she was working with were women, primarily, who had significant problems with emotion regulation and were chronically suicidal or self-injuring.

With that group, she found they needed a lot more validation—validation that things were really rough, that it was hard to change what was going on, that they needed support and comfort. But if she leaned too much on validation, patients got frustrated that there wasn’t enough change happening.

So what she added to standard CBT was first a focus on validation and acceptance, and then what she refers to as the dialectical piece: balancing between change and acceptance. The idea is: You’re doing the best you can—and you need to do better.

Jesse: Mm-hmm.

Shireen: And even though DBT was developed for that very severe group that needed a lot of treatment, one of the aspects of DBT is skills training—teaching people skills to manage their emotions, regulate distress, engage interpersonally in a more effective way.

Those skills became so popular that people started using them with everyone they were treating, not just people who engaged in chronic suicidal behavior.

Sarah: Very cool. And I think the population you’re referring to is people who might be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. I bring that up only because I work with parents, not kids, and parents report to me what their children are like. I’ve had many parents worry, “Do you think my child has borderline personality disorder?” because they’ve heard of it and associate it with extreme sensitivity and big feelings.

A lot of that is just typical of someone who’s 13 or 14, right? Or of a sensitive child—not diagnosable or something you’d necessarily find in the DSM. I’ve heard it so many times. I say, “No, I don’t think your child has borderline personality disorder. I think they’re just really sensitive and haven’t learned how to manage their big feelings yet. And that’s something you can help them with.”

With that similar level of emotional intensity—in a preteen or early teen who’s still developing the brain structures that make self-regulation possible—how can we use DBT skills? What are a couple of ideas you might recommend when you have a 13-year-old who feels like life is ruined because the jeans they wanted to wear are soaking wet in the wash? And I’m not making fun—at 13, belonging is tied to how you look, what jeans you’re wearing, how your hair is. It feels very real.

So how might we use the skills you write about for that kind of situation?

Jesse: Well, Sarah, I actually think you just practiced one of the skills: validation. When someone feels like their day is ruined because of their jeans, often a parent will say, “Get over it. It’s not a big deal.” And now, in addition to fear or anxiety, there’s a layer of shame or resentment. So the emotion amplifies and becomes even harder to get out of.

Validation is a skill we talk about where you recognize the kernel of truth—how this experience makes sense. “The jeans you’re wearing are clearly important to you. This is about connection. I understand why you feel this way.” That simple act of communicating that someone’s thoughts and feelings make sense can be very powerful.

Alongside that—back to what Shireen was saying—there are two tracks. One is the skills you help your teen practice. The other is the skills you practice yourself to be effective. In that moment, your teen might be dysregulated. What is the parent’s emotion? Their urge? What skills can they practice to be effective?

Sarah: I love that you already went to the next question I was going to ask, which is: when that kid is screaming, “You don’t understand, I can’t go to school because of the jeans,” what can parents do for themselves using the skills you describe?

Shireen: I often think of the oxygen-mask analogy: put on your own oxygen mask before helping others. That was certainly true for me when I had fussy infants—how do you manage that stress when you are already heightened?

What do you need to do to regulate yourself so you can be effective in the moment? Sometimes that’s literally taking a time-out—leaving the room for a minute. The kid comes after you about the jeans, and you say, “Hold on, I need a minute.” You sequester yourself in the bathroom. You do paced breathing—a DBT skill that helps regulate your nervous system. You do that for a minute, get centered, and then return to the situation.

If you’re not regulated and your child is dysregulated, you’ll ping-pong off each other and it becomes messier and messier. But if you can regulate yourself and approach calmly, the whole interaction changes.

Sarah: It’s so interesting because people who’ve been listening to my podcast or know my work will think, “Oh yeah, these are the things Sarah talks about all the time.” Our first principle of peaceful parenting is parental self-regulation. It doesn’t mean you never get upset, but you recognize it and have strategies to get back to calm.

And I always say, if you forget everything else I teach about dealing with upset kids, just remember empathy—which is another way of saying validation. I tell parents: you don’t have to agree to empathize. Especially with situations like the jeans.

I love the crossover between the skills parents are practicing in my community and what you’ve written about. And again: those flow charts! I’m going to mark up my book with Post-its for all the exercises.

One of the things you talk about in the book is problem solving. As parents, we can find ourselves in these intense situations. I’ll give an example: a client’s daughter, at 11 p.m., was spiraling about needing a particular pair of boots for her Halloween costume, and they wouldn’t arrive in time. No matter what the mom said, the daughter spiraled.

This is a two-part question: If you’ve validated and they’re still really upset, how do you support a kid who is deep in those intense feelings? And when is the place for teaching problem solving—especially when there is a real logistical problem to solve?

Jesse: I’m going to say the annoying therapist thing: it depends. If we think about how emotions impact our thinking on a scale from 0 to 10, it’s very hard to engage in wise-minded problem solving when someone is at an 8, 9, or 10. At that point, the urge is to act on crisis behaviors—yell, fight, ruminate.

So engaging your child in problem solving when they’re at a 9 isn’t effective.

Often, I suggest parents model and coach distress-tolerance skills. Shireen mentioned paced breathing. Maybe distraction. Anything to lower the emotional volume.

Once we’re in the six-ish range? Now we can problem solve. DBT has a very prescribed step-by-step process.

But it’s really hard if someone is so dysregulated. That’s often where parents and kids end up in conflict: parent wants to solve; kid is at a 9 and can’t even see straight.

Sarah: Right. So walk us through what that might look like using the boots example. Play the parent for a moment.

Jesse: Of course. I’d potentially do a couple of things. I might say, “Okay, let’s do a little ‘tipping the temperature’ together.” I’d bring out two bowls of ice and say, “We’ll bend over, hold our breath for 30 seconds…”

Shireen: And put your face in the bowl of ice water. You left out that part.

Jesse: Crucial part of the step.

Sarah: You just look at the ice water?

Jesse: No, you submerge your face. And something happens—it’s magical. There’s actually a profound physiological effect: lowering blood pressure, calming the sympathetic nervous system.

I highlight for parents: do this with your child, not didactically. Make it collaborative.

And then: validate, validate, validate. Validation is not approval. It’s not saying the reaction is right. It’s simply communicating that their distress makes sense. Validation is incredibly regulating.

Then you check in: “Do you feel like we can access Wise Mind?” If yes: “Great. Let’s bring out a problem-solving worksheet—maybe from Real Skills for Real Life or the DBT manual. Let’s walk through it step by step.”

Sarah: And if you have a kid screaming, “Get that ice water away from me, that has nothing to do with the boots!”—is there anything to add beyond taking a break?

Shireen: I’d say this probably comes up a lot for you, Sarah. As parents—especially high-functioning, maybe perfectionistic types (I put myself in that category)—if my kid is upset, I feel so many urges to fix it right away. Sometimes that’s helpful, but often it’s not. They either don’t want to be fixed, or they’re too dysregulated, or fixing isn’t actually their goal—they just want to tell you how upset they are.

I have to practice acceptance: “My kid is upset right now. That’s it.” I remind myself: kids being upset is part of life. It’s important for them to learn they can be upset and the world doesn’t fall apart.

If they’re willing to do skills alongside you, great. But there will be times where you say, “I accept that you’re upset. I’m sorry you feel this way. It sounds terrible. Let’s reconnect in an hour.” And wait for the storm to pass.

Sarah: Wait for the storm to pass.

Jesse: I’ll say—I haven’t been a therapist that long, and I’ve been having this conversation with my own parents. Yesterday I called my mom about something stressful, and she said, “Jesse, do you want validation or problem solving right now?”

Shireen: Love it.

Jesse: I thought, “You taught her well.” I was like: okay, therapy works. And even having that prompt—“What would you like right now? Problem solving? Validation? Do you want me to just sit with you?”—that’s so useful.

Sarah: Yeah. I have to remind myself of that with my daughter, especially when the solution seems obvious to me but she’s too upset to take it in. Just sitting there is the hardest thing in the world.

And you’ve both anticipated my next question. A big part of your book is distress tolerance—one of the four areas. Can you talk about what distress tolerance is specifically? And as you mentioned, Shireen, it is excruciating when your kid is in pain or upset.

I learned from my friend Ned Johnson—his wonderful book The Self-Driven Child—that there’s something called the “righting instinct.” When your child falls over, you have the instinct to right them—pick them up, dust them off, stand them up. That instinct kicks in whenever they’re distressed. And I think it’s important for them to learn skills so we don’t do that every time.

Give us some thoughts about that.

Shireen: Well, again, I think distress tolerance is so important for parents and for kids. The way we define it in DBT is: distress tolerance is learning how to tolerate stressful, difficult, complicated situations without doing anything to make it worse. That’s the critical part, because distress tolerance is not about solving problems. It’s about getting through without making things worse.

So in the context of an interaction with your kid, “not making it worse” might mean biting your tongue and not lashing out, not arguing, not rolling your eyes, or whatever it is. And then tolerating the stress of the moment.

As parents, we absolutely need this probably a thousand times a day. “How do I tolerate the distress of this moment with my kid?” And then kids, as humans, need to learn distress tolerance too—how to tolerate a difficult situation without doing anything to make it worse.

If we swoop in too quickly to solve the problem for them—as you said, if we move in too quickly to right them—they don’t learn that they can get through it themselves. They don’t learn that they can right themselves.

And I think there’s been a lot written about generations and how parenting has affected different generations. We want our kids to learn how to problem solve, but also how to manage stress and difficulty in effective ways.

Sarah: I think you’re probably referring to the “helicopter parents,” how people are always talking about helicopter parents who are trying to remove any obstacles or remove the distress, basically.

I think the answer isn’t that we just say, “Okay, well, you’re distressed, deal with it,” but that we’re there with them emotionally while they’re learning. We’re next to them, right? With that co-regulation piece, while they’re learning that they can handle those big feelings.

Shireen: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: I thought it might be fun, before we close out, to do a deep dive on maybe one or two of the skills you have in the book. I was thinking about maybe “Check the Facts.” It would be a cool one to do a deep dive on. You have so many awesome skills and I encourage anyone to pick up your book. “Check the Facts” is one of the emotion regulation skills.

Do you mind going over when you would use Check the Facts, what it is, and how to use it?

Jesse: Not at all. Check the Facts is, in many ways, a foundational skill, because it’s so easy for us to get lost in our interpretation of a situation. So the classic example is: you’re walking down the street and you wave to a friend, and they don’t wave back. And I don’t know about you, but it’s easy for me to go to, “Oh, they must be mad at me.”

Sarah: Right, yeah.

Jesse: And all of a sudden, I’m spinning out, thinking about all the things I could have done to hurt their feelings, and yada yada yada. Then I’m feeling lots of upset, and I may have the urge to apologize, etc.

What we’re doing with Check the Facts is returning our attention back to the facts themselves—the things we can take in with our senses. We’re observing and describing, which are two foundational mindfulness skills in DBT. And then from that, we ask ourselves: “Does the emotion I’m feeling—the intensity and duration of that emotion—fit the facts as I’m experiencing them?”

So in many ways, this is one of those cognitive interventions. DBT rests on all these cognitive-behavioral principles; it’s part of that broader umbrella. Here we’re asking: “Do the facts as I see them align with my emotional experience?”

From there, we ask: if yes, then there are certain options or skills we can practice—for instance, we can change the problem. If no, that begs the question: “Should I act opposite to this emotion urge that I have?”

So it’s a very grounding, centering type of skill. Shireen, is there anything I’m missing?

Shireen: No. I would just give a parenting example that happens for me a lot. My kid has a test the next day. He says he knows everything. He doesn’t open the book or want to review the study guide. And I start to think things like, “Oh my gosh, he has no grit. He’s going to fail this test. He’s not going to do well in high school. He’s not going to get into a good college. But most importantly, he doesn’t care. And what does that say about him? And what does it say about me as a parent?”

I hope people listening can relate to these sorts of thoughts and I’m not alone.

Sarah: A hundred percent. I’ve heard people say those exact things.

Shireen: And even though I practice these skills all the time, I’m also human and a mother. So where Check the Facts can be useful there is first just recognizing: “Okay, what thoughts am I having in response to this behavior?” The facts of the situation are: my kid said he doesn’t need to study anymore. And then look at all these thoughts that came into my mind.

First, just recognizing: here was the event, and here’s what my mind did. That, in and of itself, is a useful experience. You can say, “Wow, look at what I’m doing in my mind that’s creating so much of a problem.”

Then I can also think: “What does this make me feel when I have all these thoughts?” I feel fear. I feel sad. I feel shame about not being a good parent. And those all cause me to have more thoughts and urges to do things that aren’t super effective—like trying to bully him into studying, all of these things.

Then the skill can be: “Okay, are these thoughts exaggerated? Are they based in fact? Are they useful?” I can analyze each of these thoughts.

I might think, “Well, he has a history of not studying and doing fine,” is one thing. Another thought: “Me trying to push him to study is not going to be effective or helpful.” Another: “There are natural consequences. If he doesn’t do well because he didn’t study, that’s an important lesson for him to learn.”

So I can start to change my interpretations based on the facts of the actual situation as opposed to my exaggerated interpretations. And then see: what does that do to my emotions? And when I have more realistic, fact-based thoughts, does that lead me to have a better response than I would if I followed through on all my exaggerated thinking?

Does that make sense?

Sarah: Yeah, totally makes sense. Are there any DBT skills that are helpful in helping you recognize when you need to use a skill—if that makes sense? Because sometimes I think parents might spiral, like in the example you’re talking about, but they might not even realize they’re spiraling. Sometimes parents will say, “I don’t even know until it’s too late that I’ve had this big moment of emotional dysregulation.”

Jesse: I think there’s a very strong reason why mindfulness is the foundation of DBT—for exactly the reason you’ve just described. For a lot of us, we end up engaging in behaviors that are ineffective, that are not in line with our values or goals, and it feels like it’s just happening to us.

So having a mindfulness practice—and I want to highlight that doesn’t necessarily mean a formal meditation practice—but developing the skill of noticing, of being increasingly conscious of what you’re feeling, your urges, your thoughts, your behaviors. So that when you notice that you are drifting, that you’re engaging in an ineffective behavior, you can then apply a skill. We can’t change what we’re not aware of.

Sarah: I love that. It’s so hard with all the distractions we have and all of the things that are pulling us this way and that, and the busyness. So just slowing down and starting to notice more what we’re feeling and thinking.

Shireen: There’s a skill that we teach that’s in the category of mindfulness called Wise Mind. I don’t have to get into all the particulars of that, but Wise Mind is when you’re in a place where you feel wise and centered and perhaps a little bit calmer.

So one question people can ask themselves is: “Am I in a place of Wise Mind right now?” And if not, that’s the cue. Usually, when we answer that we’re not, it’s because we’re in a state of Emotion Mind, where our emotions are in control of us.

First, recognizing what state of mind you’re in can be really helpful. You can use that as a cue: “I’m not in Wise Mind. I need to do something more skillful here to get there,” or, “I need to give myself some time before I act.”

Sarah: I love that. So helpful. Before we wrap up, was there anything you wish I’d asked you that you think would be really helpful for parents and kids?

Shireen: I just want to reiterate something you said earlier, which is: yes, this treatment was developed for folks with borderline personality disorder. That is often a diagnosis people run screaming from or are very nervous about. People might hesitate to think that these skills could be useful for them if they don’t identify as having borderline personality disorder.

But I think what you’re highlighting, Sarah—and we so appreciate you having us on and talking about these skills—is that we consider these skills universal. Really anybody can benefit.

I’ve done training and teaching in DBT for 25 years, and I teach clinicians in many different places how to do DBT treatment with patients. But inevitably, what happens is that the clinicians themselves say, “Oh, I really need these skills in my everyday life.”

So that’s what we want to highlight, and why we wrote this book: to take these skills from a treatment designed for a really severe population and break it down so anybody can see, “Oh, this would be useful for me in my everyday life, and I want to learn more.”

Sarah: Totally. Yeah. I love it. And I think it’s a continuum, right? From feeling like emotions are overwhelming and challenging, and being really emotionally sensitive. There are lots of people who are on that more emotionally sensitive side of things, and these are really helpful skills for them.

Jesse: Yeah. And to add on that, I wouldn’t want anyone—and I don’t think any of us here are suggesting this—it’s such a stigmatized diagnosis. I have yet to meet someone who’s choosing suffering. Many of us are trying to find relief from a lot of pain, and we may do so through really ineffective means.

So with BPD, in my mind, sometimes it’s an unfortunate name for a diagnosis. Many folks may have the opinion that it means they’re intrinsically broken, or there’s something wrong with their personality. Really, it’s a constellation of behaviors that there are treatments for.

So I want anyone listening not to feel helpless or hopeless in having this diagnosis or experience.

Shireen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Thank you so much. The question I ask all my guests—I’ll ask Shireen first and then Jesse—is: if you could go back in time, if you had a time machine, if you could go back to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?

Shireen: Oof. I think about this a lot, actually, because I feel like I did suffer a lot when my kids were babies. They were super colicky. I didn’t sleep at all. I was also trying to work. I was very stressed. I wish that at that time I could have taken in what other people were telling me, which is: “This will pass.” Right? “This too shall pass,” which is something we say to ourselves as DBT therapists a lot. Time changes. Change is inevitable. Everything changes.

In those dark parenting moments, you get stuck in thoughts of, “This is never going to change. It’s always going to be this way. I can’t tolerate this.” Instead, shifting to recognize: “Change is going to happen whether I like it or not. Just hang in there.”

Sarah: I love that. My mother-in-law told me when I had my first child: “When things are bad, don’t worry, they’ll get better. And also, when things are good, don’t worry, they’ll get worse.”

Shireen: Yes, it’s true. And we need both the ups and the downs so we can actually understand, “Oh, this is why I like this, and this is why I don’t like this.” It’s part of life.

Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. And Jesse, if you do ever have children, what would you want to remember to tell yourself?

Jesse: I think I would want to remember to tell myself—and I don’t think I’m going to say anything really new here—that perfection is a myth. I think parents often feel like they need to be some kind of superhuman. But we all feel. And when we do feel, and when we feel strongly, the goal isn’t to shame ourselves for having that experience. It’s to simply understand it.

That’s what I would want to communicate to myself, and what I hope to communicate to the parents I work with.

Sarah: Love that. Best place to go to find out more about you all and what you do? We’ll put a link to your book in the show notes, but any other socials or websites you want to point people to?

Shireen: My website is shireenrizvi.com, where you can find a number of resources, including a link to the book and a link to our YouTube channel, which has skills videos—animated skills videos that teach some of these skills in five minutes or less. So that’s another resource for people.

Sarah: Great. What about you, Jesse?

Jesse: I have a website called axiscbt.com. I’m also a co-founder of a psychoeducation skills course called Farrah Hive, and we actually have a parenting course based on DBT skills—that’s thefarrahhive.com. And on Instagram, @talk_is_good.

Sarah: Great. Thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today.

Jesse: Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah: Thank you.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL

the peaceful parenting transformational bundle

Transform Your Family Life course +

12 months of the Reimagine Peaceful Parenting Membership

Transform Your Family Life course

(reg. price $497)

PLUS

12 months inside the Peaceful Parenting Membership (reg. price $570)

GET BOTH for $1067 only $370

All the info here: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/blackfriday

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I speak with Educational Psychologist Liz Angoff.

We discuss when and why a child might need an assessment, what information you get from an assessment, how to help children understand their brains and diagnosis, and celebrating neurodiversity.

Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!

We talk about:

7:00 What are some signs that your child should get an assessment?
9:00 Getting to the “why” and the “so what”
10:00 What do you assess for?
14:00 Why it is important to get an assessment?
23:00 Should you tell your child about their diagnosis?
31:00 Scripts and metaphors for talking to your kids about diagnosis
39:00 Red and Green flags with clinicians
44:00 Celebrating neurodiversity

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Dr. Liz’s website and books

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today my guest is Dr. Liz Angoff, who is an educational psychologist. She does testing, looking at helping kids understand how their brain works and helping their adults understand how their children’s brains work. She has loads of wonderful resources, which we will link to in the show notes.

I love how Dr. Liz takes this approach. It’s about how our brains can work in different ways, and understanding that really can help our child understand themselves, and help us understand our child in a better way.

As you’ll hear in this conversation with Dr. Liz, she really talks about how, if your child is experiencing some challenges or struggles—or you’re experiencing struggles or challenges with them—it can be helpful to get an assessment and possibly a diagnosis to understand exactly what’s going on and how your child’s brain works. Whether it could be anxiety or depression or neurodivergence or learning challenges or any sorts of things that can be uncovered through psychological testing, you can really understand the differences in your child’s brain that could be making life feel more challenging for them and/or for you. And she has a beautifully neurodiversity-affirming lens, where she talks about—you’ll hear her talk about this in the episode—looking at a child’s brain in terms of both the strengths and the challenges.

As always, we would love if you would share this episode with anyone you think might find it useful, and leave us a five-star rating on your favorite podcast player app and leave us a review. It really helps us reach more families and therefore help more families.

Alright, let’s meet Dr. Liz.

Hello, Dr. Liz. Welcome to the podcast.

Liz: Thank you for having me. I’m really excited to be here, Sarah.

Sarah: Me too. So tell us about who you are and what you do before we dive in.

Liz: Right. Well, I go by Dr. Liz, and I am a licensed educational psychologist. I’m in the Bay Area, California, and my focus—my passion—is working with kids to understand how their brains work. I am a testing psychologist, so I do assessment to understand, when things are challenging for kids, why things are challenging and what we’re going to do to really support them.

But one of the things that really caught my interest a number of years ago is that so often we bring kids through the assessment process and we don’t talk to them about what they did or what we learned about them. So I got really passionate about talking to kids directly about how they can understand their brains—what comes easily for them, how they can really use their strengths to help them thrive, and then what’s challenging and what they can do to advocate for themselves and support themselves. So all of my work has been really focused on that question: how do we help kids understand themselves?

Sarah: Which is perfect, because that’s exactly why I wanted to have you on. I’ve had so many parents ask me, “Well, how do I… I’ve got the assessment. How do I tell them? Do I tell them? How do I tell them?” We’re going to get into all of that.

But first I want to start with: what are some signs… I imagine some of the people listening are already going to have had assessments or are in the process of getting an assessment. But there also are some people who maybe—at least in our world—what we look at is: if you feel like you’re struggling way more than everybody else, that could be one sign. And if you’ve already made shifts and you’re trying to practice, in our case, peaceful parenting, and you’re still finding that things are really hard—that could be a sign that you might want to get an assessment.

But what are some signs that you look for that you might want to get your child assessed?

Liz: Yeah, I mean, you named a couple of them that I think are actually really important. All kids have times when they struggle. Growing up is hard. There are a lot of challenges, and they’re really important challenges that kids face. They need to know that it’s okay when things are hard. They need to know they can do hard things and come out the other side.

And there’s so much out there—what I think of as parenting 101—that helps us figure out: how do we help our children navigate these tough times? And then there’s kind of the next level where you might get a little extra support. So you read a book on parenting, or you find a different approach that matches the way your child shows up in the world a little bit better. You might meet with the school and get a little bit of extra help—sometimes called student study teams or SSTs—where you might meet with the teacher and the team.

For most kids, that little extra boost is enough to get them through those hard times. But for some kids, there are still questions. That next level, that extra support—it’s still not working. Things are still hard, and we don’t know why.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Liz: And when you have that question—“Why isn’t this working? It works for so many kids, but it’s not working for my child”—that’s when an assessment can be really helpful to get at the why. The so what.

So the why is: why are things harder for my child, and why are the traditional things that help most children not working? And then the so what is: so what do we do about it? How do we do things differently? And for kids who are wired differently, they need different things. And that’s what we focus on in the assessment process.

Sarah: And so, what kinds of… You know, we’ve gotten extra support, we’ve educated ourselves, and things are still hard for our child—or maybe also hard for us at home with our child. What are the kinds of things that you assess for? I guess that’s the best way to ask. The big ones I think about are ADHD and autism, but what else might be possibilities that are going on?

Liz: I really think of assessment—at the core of it—as understanding how this child’s brain works. The diagnoses that we look at… a diagnosis is just a kind of way to orient us toward the path of support that’s going to be most helpful. But even ADHD, autism, dyslexia—these common things we might look for—show up differently in different kids. There are diagnostic criteria, but they mix and match a little bit. No two ADHD-ers show up the same way. No two autistic kids show up the same way. Even dyslexic kids show up differently.

So at the core of it, we’re trying to figure out: what makes this child’s brain unique? What are the unique strengths and challenges that they have? And we’re going to be able to explain that. A shortcut for explaining that might be dyslexia or autism or ADHD.

We also might be looking at things like anxiety and depression that can really affect kids in a big way—sometimes related to other brain styles, because navigating the world as a different kind of brain is really hard and can lead to a lot of anxiety and depression. Sometimes anxiety can look like ADHD, for example, because it really hijacks your attention and makes it hard to sit still at school when your brain is on high alert all the time.

So we’re really trying to tease apart: what’s the root cause of the challenges a child is facing? So that we know what to do about it.

Some other things we might look at: one of the big questions that comes to me is when there are some really challenging behaviors that kids have, and we want to know what’s underneath that. Sometimes there might be questions about sensory dysregulation or emotional dysregulation—just real difficulty understanding the emotions that are coming up and what to do about them. Some kids get hit like by a tsunami by their emotions. And so learning how to regulate or manage those big feelings might be something we’re looking at. And again, that might be part of a bigger diagnosis, but more importantly it’s something we want to understand so we can support a child, regardless of what we call it.

Sarah: That makes so much sense. And it makes me think about my daughter, who’s 18 now. And just for anyone listening, she’s okay with me talking about her assessment and diagnoses. And I think sometimes when you talk about challenging behavior, we think we know why there’s challenging behavior—but sometimes we can be totally wrong.

I remember when she was in elementary school, her teachers—one after another—would always talk about how she was repeatedly at their desks asking, “What do I do next?” Asking for instruction. And she’s a kid whose connection is super important to her, and I always thought it was because she was looking for more connection from the teacher. That she was always at their side, and that was a “good” reason to go up and talk to the teacher because she loved her teachers.

And then come to find out, when we had her assessed, that she has working memory challenges. She actually literally couldn’t remember what the next thing to do was, because she could only keep one or two things in her head at a time. And that was really helpful information. It completely shifted how her teachers—and how I—saw her classroom behavior.

Liz: Isn’t that amazing? Just getting at the why. Getting underneath and figuring out the why completely shifts our perspective on things. And I think for a lot of kids, that first-line parenting—for many kids, yeah, they’re looking for connection. They’re looking for that. It makes total sense that that would be our first assumption. And for some kids, that’s just not true.

So when we do the assessment, we find out this important information that is so important to understanding what’s going on. And for your daughter to understand: “Oh, there’s this thing called working memory, and that is different in my brain than in other brains.” So I’m not dumb or lazy or all these labels we give ourselves. It’s: “Oh, I have a working memory challenge, so let’s brainstorm some ways I can work with the way my working memory works.” And that might be asking the teacher—that might work for everybody—but there might be something else.

There are any number of strategies we can use to really help her once we know what that is. And when we talk to kids about it, we can brainstorm with them to figure out what the best strategy is going to be—one that works for our child, that works for the teacher, that works for everybody involved.

Sarah: Yeah, for sure. It’s so illuminating. There were so many things about her diagnosis when she got assessed that helped so much to explain behavior that a lot of people found perplexing, and also helped her understand herself and make adjustments she needed to make to be successful.

For example, even now she’s in first-year college, and she knows—this has continued through her whole school career—that because of her focus challenges, she can’t really do any homework after six o’clock at night. Her focus is just not good. She can try, but it’s really hard for her. So she plans her day around: “I know that I’ve only got until six o’clock to really get my good work done.” She’ll even come home, do homework, and then go back into the city to go to the gym or something, whereas other people might do it the other way around.

So I think just knowing—kids knowing—how their brain works is really setting themselves up for success.

Liz: I love that.

Sarah: Yeah. So, which brings me to the next question I was going to ask you, and I think you’ve already answered it or we’ve talked about it together: anything you want to add about why it’s important to get an assessment? I mean, you talked about helping kids understand how their brain works, really getting to the root of the problem, and helping the people around them understand how their brain works. Is there anything else you want to add about why we would want to get an assessment that we haven’t already talked about?

Liz: Yeah. Well, one of the things we talk about a lot is that an assessment can result in a label of sorts. A diagnosis is a kind of label. And something I get asked a lot is: “What do we do when parents feel nervous about having their child have a label?”

There is—as much as I am a proponent and supporter and celebrator of neurodiversity—the truth is that our society still has some pretty challenging stereotypes about what it means to be ADHD or autistic, or to have a different way your brain is wired.

Sarah: Or stigma.

Liz: Yeah—stigma. That’s the word. And so I think it’s a real fear that families have.

There are a couple of things that are important to know about these “labels.” One is that the world is changing. We are understanding these diagnoses in a totally different way—not as something that’s broken or needs to be fixed, but as something that is different. A normal variation of how brains appear in the world. And that is a real change that is happening.

And that label can be—as you were just saying—so helpful, as a way to guide what we do to support our children so they can be successful. Like your example with your daughter: she can learn how to work with her brain so she can be really successful. I think it’s brilliant that she knows that after six o’clock, her brain won’t study anymore. That simple change is the difference between feeling like a failure and feeling like a success.

And I think the more dangerous thing—the scarier piece—is the labels we give children who aren’t properly diagnosed. Those labels are the ones kids give themselves, like “I must be dumb,” or the labels others give kids, like “This is a lazy child,” or “This is a defiant child.” Those labels are so much more negative and harmful to our kids because they tell them there’s something wrong with them.

Are these diagnoses labels? Yes. But I would argue they are such helpful guideposts for us in understanding: this is a difference, not a deficiency.

Sarah: I love that. And I’ve heard people say that you can avoid getting a diagnosis for your child because you don’t want to have them labeled, but they will still get labeled—just with the wrong labels instead of the right labels.

Liz: Exactly. Yeah.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. I know people who… I have a friend who didn’t find out until they were in their late teens, I guess, that they had inattentive ADHD, and they spent years unlearning, “I’m just lazy,” and, “I’m a lazy person, that’s why I have trouble doing things on time,” and really unlearning that bad… that bad idea of themselves that had been put on them when they weren’t aware of their inattentive ADHD.

Liz: Exactly.

Sarah: Yeah. I also have another friend who got diagnosed as autistic late in life, and they wish that they had known that so much earlier because they spent—you know, they’re one of those people that, back when they were a child, the diagnostic criteria missed them. Right? Like they were just quirky, odd, like the little-professor type of autistic kid. But they spent their whole life thinking, “There’s something wrong with me. I just don’t know what it is, but I know I feel different from everybody else,” and searching for, “What is this thing that’s wrong with me?” And finding it in all sorts of things that weren’t actually… you know, obviously there’s not anything wrong with them, they’re just autistic. But thinking how different their life would’ve been if they had known that, and hadn’t spent all those years trying to figure out why they felt so different from everybody else.

Liz: Exactly. And that’s what the research is showing us too—that so many individuals who are diagnosed as adults had these really harmful and unhelpful narratives as kids. And the first emotion that those diagnosed adults feel is this relief: “Oh, that’s why things feel different for me.” But the second emotion I find so much more interesting, because across the board, the second thing that people report is anger. And it’s anger at having lost decades to those false narratives that were so, so unhelpful.

And I think that there are kind of two facets to my passion about talking to kids. One was understanding that kids—they often know that something is different about them way before we even pick up on it, no matter how old they are. They have this sense that, “Oh, I’m walking through the world in a different way.” So the earlier we can have these conversations with them, the better, because we have this opportunity to rewrite that narrative for them.

But the second huge piece for me was working with adults and doing that later-in-life diagnosis, and hearing time after time, story after story about adults who are completely rewriting their self-narrative through the process of our assessment—and what a relief that is. And how frustrating it is that they’ve lost so much time not knowing, and now having to go through the process of identity formation again, because they have this new, critical piece of information that helps them understand things so differently about their childhood, their young adulthood—depending on how old they are.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s so important. And when you just said, “Kids often know that there’s something different about them,” I remembered my daughter. She didn’t—I think partly because I’m, I’m not saying this to toot my own horn, but I’m an extraordinarily patient person, and so some of the things about her ADHD—so she has an ADHD diagnosis—and some of the things about that, I think it took me a long time to sort of think, “Okay, this is unusual, that these behaviors are still happening,” because I was so patient with it, you know? And I think other parents may have been a little less patient at an earlier age and gotten her… and I feel bad about that, because I wish she had gotten her assessment earlier. I think it would’ve been helpful for her.

But I remember one thing that spurred me to finally seek an assessment was she asked me what ADHD was. She was probably nine, ten, maybe. And I told her, and she said, “I have that.” She was like, “I have that.” And I’m like, “Really?” Like, you know… anyway, it was just interesting.

Liz: I think kids know. I’ve had that experience so many times, I can’t even tell you. I’m halfway through a feedback session with a child and I haven’t told them yet, and they come out with, “Do I have ADHD?” Or in the middle of the assessment, they’re wondering about it and asking. And I say, “Well, what do you understand about ADHD, and why are you asking that question?” And I can kind of get more information from them and let them know, “We don’t know yet, but that’s what we’re here for. We’re exploring your brain and we’re trying to understand it.”

But I think that information, I mean, that just speaks to how much our world is changing. This information is out there in the world. We’re talking about it, which I think is so, so important to normalizing the fact that brains come in all different shapes and sizes and ways of being. And so it becomes a point of discussion—like a really open point of discussion—about, “I wonder how my brain is wired.”

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So interesting. I’m pretty sure I know the answer that you’re gonna give: if you do get a diagnosis of something—ADHD or autism—should you tell your child?

Liz: So I do believe that we should be talking to kids about how their brains work. And I want to be really mindful of the parent journey as I talk about this. I think that the most important piece is that, as a parent, you understand how your child’s brain works, and that you go through your own process of integrating that with how you see your child. And that’s a really important journey and a huge piece of the journey, because when we start talking to kids about how their brains work, we need to be really confident as adults.

So I think that while I see this as so important—talking to kids about their diagnosis—I want to make sure that parents are taking time and space to understand it themselves first.

Sarah: I love that. That’s such a sensitive answer, because if, say, you get the diagnosis of your child and to you it feels like, you know, it’s this horrible thing—that would not be a good frame of mind to tell your child about their diagnosis in. Right? So really working through your own fears and your own… getting proper information about what the diagnosis means before you go to your child with that information.

Liz: Exactly. And understanding what it means and what it doesn’t mean. Because there’s a lot of messages out there, especially around autism and ADHD, that are negative: that your child is broken in some way, we need to fix them, we need to make them more “normal,” whatever that means. I mean, all these messages are not helpful, not accurate. So really diving into the neurodiversity-affirming framework around these different neurotypes or brain types is a really important piece to give yourself time to process as a parent.

That said, I do think that being able to have a really supportive conversation with your child about, “What did we learn about the assessment?”—you know, we already talked about that kids know something’s different about them before we know. And so when they go through the assessment process, there’s no hiding from them that we’re doing something different for you. And they’re the ones that go through all these different activities as part of the assessment; they’re working very hard.

And I, as an assessor, I’m very transparent with kids: “We’re here to understand how your brain works,” because I was trained to tell kids, “We’re going to play a lot of brain games, and it’s going to be super fun, you’ll get prizes.” Which it is fun until we do the thing that’s hard for you. And then suddenly, it’s not fun anymore. And kids are like, “Huh, I feel like you’re not telling me the whole truth. This is not fun.” They pick up on it, right?

So I tend to be really transparent with kids: “We’re here to understand how your brain works. Some of the things that we do, your brain is going to find fun and maybe even easy to do. Some of the things are really going to challenge your brain. You might learn something new while you’re here. If something’s challenging, I want you to tell me about it, and we’re going to figure it out together—like, ooh, that’s going to be really interesting.”

So we’re already talking to kids about what’s strong. And I use a construction metaphor that I can go into, but we talk about their brain highways and we talk about their construction projects—what they’re working on. So kids are already learning so much about their brain as part of the assessment. And even without sharing the diagnosis, we can talk to them about what we learned, so that there’s some de-mystifying there. “I went through this whole thing and now everyone’s talking behind my back. They’re having a bunch of meetings. There must be something wrong with me.” Instead, we can say, “I learned so many cool things about your brain. I learned that you are strong in this, and I learned that we’re going to work on this. And so that’s really helpful for me as a parent.”

And then if we do have a diagnosis, what it adds when we share that with kids is: they know that they are not alone. It gives context. It lets them know that while the way their brain works is unique, there are lots of people out there who have very similar brains, who have been really successful with that kind of brain. There’s a path laid out—that we know what to do to work with your unique brain. And so it really helps them feel like, “I’m not alone in this. It’s not weird or broken in any way. This is just a different way to be in the world, and there’s a roadmap for me.”

Sarah: I love that. Yeah. I often, when I’m talking to parents, and you know, often after a couple of parent coaching sessions there’ll be some things that make me say, “Have you ever… has anyone ever asked you if you were considering an ADHD assessment for your child?” I try to… you know, because I’m not a clinician, I can’t diagnose anyone with anything. But there are certainly things that come up that make me think, “I think these people should get an assessment.”

And often they— you know, I try to be really as positive as I can—but often they do have these really negative associations with, for example, ADHD. And then I say, like, “You know, how many entrepreneurs… there are way more entrepreneurs that have ADHD than the general population, and way more Olympic athletes and professional athletes.” And, you know, there are things that are just research- and statistic-backed that you can say that are positive about this differently wired brain.

Liz: Right. I love the research on entrepreneurship and ADHD. I think that it’s so amazing how well-equipped the ADHD brain is to be in a space where we’re disrupting the status quo and trying new things, thinking outside of the box, really using that creativity. And it’s just a world that needs this kind of brain to really move us forward. More neurotypical brains that work well with the way that society is built might not be as motivated to disrupt things in that positive way that moves us forward.

Sarah: I love that. What are some other things that—you know, I feel like we’ve kind of covered most of the questions that I had planned on asking you—but are there any things that I haven’t asked you or that we haven’t touched on? You know, you’ve modeled some really beautiful ways of how to talk to your child about how their brain works. Maybe you want to go into your construction metaphor a little bit more, or maybe there are some other things that we haven’t covered that you want to talk about.

Liz: Sure. Well, I think that one of the things that may be really helpful is thinking about: what is the script for telling kids about their diagnosis? The way that I’ve found most helpful is using this construction metaphor, because it is pretty universal and it has so many places you can go with it, and it just gives you a way to start the conversation.

For parents, it may sound something like: “You went through this whole process and I’m so grateful that you did, because we were able to learn some really cool things about your brain. Is it okay if I share that with you?” So asking that permission to start the conversation, because it is vulnerable for kids. You want to make sure that it’s the right time and place. And most of the time, opening it like that will pique kids’ curiosity, and they’re like, “Yeah, of course, I want to know what you learned.”

And then you might say, “You know, I learned that we can think of your brain like something that’s under construction, like the construction sites we see on the side of the road—that we’re always building our brain. And the way your brain works is that the different parts of your brain communicate through these neurons that make connections, like little tiny roads in your brain. And we learned that some of those roads are like highways for your brain. We learned that you have so many strengths.”

“So, for example, we learned that you maybe have a great vocabulary and really express yourself well. We learned about your creativity, and when you’re really passionate about something, you can focus in so amazingly well on that. We learned that you’re a really loyal friend, or maybe that you have a really strong memory for stories”—you know, whatever it is. “We learned that you have these highways.”

“We also know that some parts of your brain are under construction. Like, you might remember when you were little, you didn’t know how to ride a bike yet, but then your brain had to put all those things together and now you ride your bike all the time. Do you remember kind of building that road? Well, there are some new roads that we’re working on. And so we might be working on… one of the things we learned that’s under construction for your brain is something called working memory. And I think that’s why you’re asking your teacher all the time for the next step—because you’re doing something, you’re advocating for yourself, because your brain does best when it gets one piece of information at a time. And that was so important for me to learn as a parent.”

“And when we put these things together, lots of people have highways and construction zones just like yours. In fact, we have a name for it. We call that ADHD—when you have such a creative, passionate brain that loves to focus on the things that you are really into, but sometimes have difficulty keeping stuff in mind, this working memory piece—that’s what we call ADHD. And it turns out there are lots and lots of people who have ADHD brains just like yours, and we can look at those people.”

So that’s kind of how I go through it with kids. We’re really talking about their highways and construction projects and helping them understand that—and then repackaging it with that name for it. That there’s a name for how your brain works. And that’s where we start. And then from there, we can use that metaphor to keep building the next thing, working on the next construction project as we move forward.

Sarah: Would there be anything specifically different or similar, I guess, about talking about an autism diagnosis for kids with that construction metaphor?

Liz: Yeah, so I use the same metaphor, but the highways and construction zones, for every kid, are going to be a little different. So for an autistic kid—if I think of one kid in particular—we might say that we learned that you have this really passionate brain that loves engineering and building, and the things you did with Dr. Liz where you had to solve puzzles and use logic, that was a highway in your brain. And we know that one of the ways that your brain works really well is when you have space to move and to be able to use your body in different ways.

Then some of the things that might be under construction are… usually I’ll start with something that a child has told me is more challenging for him or her. “So you know how you said that sometimes other kids might say things that feel confusing, or you’re not sure what they mean? That’s something that might be harder for your brain—or something that is a construction project that we’ll work on with you, so that it’s easier to understand other kids.”

“And when we put these things together—when kids have brains that are really passionate and pay attention to details, that love engineering, but have trouble figuring out what other kids are saying or meaning—then we call that autism. And it’s a different way of a brain being in the world. And so, as you learn to work with your autistic brain, you’ll figure out how to really dive deep into your passions and you’ll be able to thrive, find the connections that you want, and we’re here to help.”

Sarah: I love that. And I love how, when you talk about construction zones, it’s full of promise too, right? I read something from someone… that you can work on things—what I mean by full of promise is that there are things that can be worked on that might feel hard or confusing now, but it doesn’t leave a child with a sense of, “I’ll never be able to figure it out, and it’s always going to be this way.”

Liz: Yeah. One of the ways the construction metaphor has really evolved is that for some things, we’re building that road, and for some things, we’re finding a different way to get there. One of the things that I write in my books is that you might build a road there, or you might find a totally different way to get there. In the new book for parents, there’s a picture of a flying car, you know, kind of flying over the construction zone. And I think that it’s really true for our kids that for some skills, there might be some things that we need to learn and really build that pathway in our brain, but for some things, there might just be a different way.

I think for autistic kids, for example, they might connect with others in really different ways. And so it’s like building a totally new way to get there—building a different road, taking the scenic route. There are so many ways we can adapt the metaphor to say, “We’re still going to get you to your goal, where you want to go, but your road might look really different than somebody else’s, and that’s okay. It’s going to be the best road for you.”

Sarah: I love that, because it also—I mean, not only is it promising that you’re going to get to where you want to go, but it also, I think, helps relieve parents of an idea that I see sometimes, where they want their kids to be more like neurotypical kids, right? They think that’s the only way to get to the goal, is for them to have, you know, just using the example of social connections: the social connections of an autistic kid might be really, really strong but look totally different from the social connections of a neurotypical kid.

Liz: Exactly. Yeah.

Sarah: That reminds me of something that I was going to ask you earlier and I forgot, which was: you mentioned that sometimes when you get a diagnosis, you have a clinician who wants to try to tell you how you should change your child, or help them be more “normal” or more “typical,” and that clearly would be from somebody who’s not very neurodiversity-affirming. But what are some things to look out for that might be sort of, I guess, red flags or green flags in terms of the person that you’re looking for to do an assessment—or if you’ve already got the assessment, how they’re interpreting the diagnosis—that might be more or less helpful?

Liz: Yeah. So I love this question, because I think one of the most important questions you can ask a clinician when you are looking for an assessment is: “How do you involve my child in the assessment?” Or, “What will you tell them about what you learned?” Looking for somebody who is really well-versed in, “How do I talk to the child about it?” is going to tell you that they’re really thinking about, “How do we frame this in a way that’s going to be helpful and affirming to a young child?”

Because anybody who’s really thinking about, “How do I communicate this in a way that’s going to make sense to a small person?” has really been thinking about, “How do we think about the whole person, and how do we capitalize on those strengths?” So that is kind of a tell, to say that this person is thinking in this more holistic way—and not just about, “Does this child fit the diagnostic criteria?”

If you’ve had an assessment with somebody that is more coming from that medical lens that we’ve all been trained in—this is so new, and so, you know, a lot of clinicians were trained from this medical lens, which is looking at, “What are the child’s deficits, and do they meet criteria from this diagnostic manual that we have, the DSM, that is a list of things that are harder or quote-unquote wrong?”—from there, I think really getting connected with some more affirming resources is important.

I have a ton on my website that can be really, really helpful. There’s a spreadsheet of ways of talking about autism, ADHD, dyslexia, behavior, anxiety, OCD in really affirming ways. And so just immersing yourself in those resources so you can get that positive language for talking to your child. Or working with the next practitioner—a therapist, a tutor—who has experience working from a neurodiversity-affirming lens, so that you can help to translate those testing results into something that’s going to really be focused on: how do we help your child thrive with the brain that they have?

Sarah: Thank you. That makes so much sense.

This has been so helpful, and I think that so many parents are going to find this really useful—in how to talk to their kids and how to think about it, how to think about it themselves. What it… oh, it has just totally thrown me that I couldn’t remember that thing. All right. So thank you so much for joining us and telling us about all this stuff. You mentioned a couple of books, so we’ll get your books in the show notes for folks, but where else is the best place for people to go and find out more about you and what you do?

Liz: Yeah, so I have a ton of free resources for parents on explainingbrains.com. There are articles—just very, very short, parent-friendly articles—with both the strengths, the “highways,” and common construction projects for ADHD brains, for autistic brains, for dyslexic brains, for kids who have difficulty regulating behavior, anxiety, intellectual disability—just ways of explaining so many different types of brains, as well as what we do about things like screen time or talking about medication. So hopefully that resource is helpful for parents.

And then I have a brand-new book out for parents called Our Brains, and it is an interactive, collaborative workbook that helps you explain a diagnosis to your child. So it’s something that you can get after an assessment, and it will walk you through explaining to your child how their brain works, what you learned from the assessment. Or, if you have a diagnosis that’s been on the table for a long time and you just haven’t had that conversation with them yet, it is designed to really help kids not just know, “Okay, this is my diagnosis,” but really understand how their brain works and how they can advocate for what their brain needs to thrive.

Sarah: Fantastic. That is going to be so helpful for so many parents. Okay, now here’s the mystery question that I told you about before we started recording, and this is a question I ask all my guests. So, if you had a time machine and you could go back in time and give a message to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?

Liz: Oh. I would just constantly remind myself that there are so many ways to be in this world, and it’s all okay. I think—even I was amazed—that even as somebody who has decades of experience in this field and has made a life out of celebrating neurodiversity, there was a way that doctors communicated with me from this deficit lens that would just put my mommy brain on high alert all the time when something was just a little bit different. And I really needed just constant reminders that my child is going to show up how they’re going to show up, and that that is not only okay, but it is beautiful and amazing and so important to how they are and the unique contribution they’re going to have to this world.

And it’s something that I’ve grown into—my child’s seven and a half now—and it’s something that we get to celebrate all the time: incredible uniqueness, and celebrate. But I think I remember very distinctly as a new mom, just with all the doctors using their jargony, deficit-based language, it was just really hard to keep that solid head on my shoulders. But I think it’s a really important message to keep with us: that there’s just so many ways to be, and it’s all amazing.

Sarah: I love that. Thank you so much for joining us, and really appreciate it.

Liz: Thank you for having me. This has been a blast.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Corey and I discuss why “Special Time”- the gold standard for cultivating connection with our kids- might not work the best for complex kids.

We cover who complex kids are, what parenting them looks like, how to co-create interests and activities together, and being playful to connect deeply while getting through the daily routine.

Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!

We talk about:

6:43 What is Special Time?
7:51 What is a complex Kid?
10:08 What does it look like to parent a complex Kid?
19:30 What does daily life look like with complex Kids?
22:03 What to do for connection when special time doesn’t work?
23:05 Cultivating shared hobbies
27:00 Finding books you both love
30:00 Instead of only putting kids in organized sports, exercise together!
33:30 Sideways listening with our kids
37:00 Playful parenting as we move through the daily routine

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
What you Can Do When Parenting Hard: Coaching with Joanna
When Peaceful Parenting Doesn’t Look Like It’s “Supposed To” Look
How To Take the Coach Approach to Parenting Complex Kids with Elaine Taylor- Klaus
What Influencers are Getting Wrong About Peaceful Parenting
Staying Close to Your Tweens and Teens
How To Stop Fighting About Video Games with Scott Novis
Playful Heart Parenting with Mia Wisinski

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s episode is about why you shouldn’t do special time, which is, I admit, a little bit of a provocative hook here. But it’s something that Corey brought to my attention that we have been talking about a lot. And then after last week’s podcast, we both agreed—after the podcast with Joanna and her complex kid—we both agreed we have to talk about this, because this is something that probably a lot of parents are feeling a lot of conflict, guilt, and shame around: not doing special time or not wanting to do special time or not being able to do special time.

Sarah: Hey Corey. Welcome back to the podcast. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Corey: Hi, I am Corey Everett, and I am a trained peaceful parenting coach, and I work for Sarah. I live in Ontario, but I work with clients all over the world doing one-on-one coaching. And I myself am complex and have a complex child. And I have two kids. I never can remember this, but I have a 7-year-old and a 10-year-old.

Sarah: I am glad you’re not the only one who can’t remember their kids’ ages. I have to stop and think. Okay. Well, I’m so excited to talk about this. And this is actually something that you and I have talked about over the years, because you have found it really difficult to do special time with your complex kid. Maybe just tell us a little bit about what happened when you tried to do special time and why you eventually sort of gave it up. And, you know, this is something that Joanna in the podcast last week—the coaching podcast—she was talking about how she didn’t want to do special time with her kid because she was so exhausted. So I think this is sort of like a two-part: why sometimes special time doesn’t work for the kids and why it doesn’t work for the parents. So let’s start by talking about what happened when you would try to do special time with Big C, who’s your 10-year-old.

Corey: Okay, so when I would try and do special time with Big C, I actually found—first of all—I didn’t really feel very present in it. I felt like I was trying to do it, but I felt like I didn’t have a lot of energy for it. I think he could feel that. So I just didn’t feel very engaged in it and I just felt exhausted, and it just felt like another thing on my to-do list. And so therefore he didn’t necessarily enjoy it as much either.

We did do a podcast—it’d be really great, I can put it in the show notes—where we talked about some things for peaceful parenting that aren’t working, and I did a really good description in that one of why special time didn’t work for him.

Sarah: Okay.

Corey: And so we can have them listen to that if they want more details on that part. Instead, I think I want to really focus on why it didn’t work for me and why I’m finding with my clients it’s not working for them either.

Sarah: You know what, sorry to interrupt you. I realize we should really just say what special time is, in case—like it’s such a gold standard of peaceful parenting—but there could be some parents listening to this, parents or caregivers who are newer to special time and might not know what it is.

Special time—and there are, I think, some other brands of parenting that might have other names for it—but basically the gold standard is 15 minutes a day of one-on-one time with you and your child, where you put aside the to-do list, put away your phone, and some people suggest that you set a timer and say, “I’m all yours for the next 15 minutes. What do you want to play?” It’s really immersing yourself in the child’s world. That’s one of the main ideas of special time: that we’re immersed in our child’s world of pretend play or some kind of play. It can be roughhousing or it can be playing Lego or dolls—something that is really child-centered and child-led.

So that is special time. And let’s take it from there. You had mentioned already that energetically it was really hard for you.

Corey: I think the best way that I can explain this is if I paint the picture for you of what it looks like to be a parent of a complex kid. And—

Sarah: Wait let’s give a definition of complex—we’ve got to make sure we’re covering the basics here. What’s a complex kid?

Corey: Okay, so a complex kid. This term, I first heard it from Elaine Taylor-Klaus—and we can also put in the show notes when you had her on the podcast. She is amazing. And basically, we’re really often talking about neurodivergent kids here. But it can be more than that. It’s just kids who need more.

Sarah: It’s that 20% of kids that we talk about—the 80% of kids who, you know, you say “Go put your shoes on and wait for me by the door,” and they go and do it and they don’t have the extra big feelings. So in my idea of it, it can be neurodivergent and also spirited, sensitive, strong-willed. The kids who are not your average, typical kids. And I always say that when I tell people what I do—parenting coach—some people look at me like, “Why would anyone need a parenting coach?” and other people are like, “Oh, I could have used you when my kids were growing up.”

So really there are kids who are—I’m sure they’re wonderful—but they’re not as more or complex as some other kids.

Corey: Kids that you almost don’t have to be as intentional about your parenting with.

Sarah: Yeah. You don’t have to read parenting books or listen to parenting podcasts. I would hazard a guess that most people who listen to this podcast have complex kids.

Corey: Yes. They’re our people. We always say the people who are our people are the ones who don’t have to talk about challenges around putting on shoes.

Sarah: I love that.

Corey: That seems to be the number one thing we’re always talking about.

Sarah: We always use that as an example, whether it’s sensory or strong-willed or attentional. It is kind of like one of those canary-in-the-coal-mine things. Will your child go and put their shoes on when you ask them to? If the answer is no, you probably have a complex kid.

Corey: Yes, I love that it is the canary in the coal mine. So that’s what our complex kids are. And for the parents of these kids, I think of these parents as being absolute rock stars. They are just trying so hard to peacefully parent their kids. And, like we said, they’re reading all the books, they’re listening to this podcast, they’ve probably signed up for all sorts of online seminars and courses and just do all of the things.

Often these parents were not peacefully parented themselves. Most people weren’t. So they’re learning a whole new parenting style. And a lot of people today are getting all their information off Instagram and TikTok reels that aren’t very nuanced, so they’re also not getting really full information. They’re trying so hard off of all these little sound snippets.

Sarah: Or the peaceful parenting or gentle parenting advice that they’re being given, and what’s supposed to happen just doesn’t look like that for their kid. And that reminds me—the other podcast that we did about when peaceful parenting doesn’t “work,” we could link to that one too.

Corey: Yes. Parents of complex kids are also trying to problem solve so many challenges because the world is often not designed for their kids, and it’s often not designed for them.

Sarah: Say more about that—about “not designed for their kids.” What’s an example of how that might show up?

Corey: So an example is conventional schooling. They’re expected to go into this noisy environment and just be able to eat the food they’ve been sent and listen all day and stay in their seats and learn the same way that everyone else is learning. I didn’t really realize how complex my kid was until I tried to send him to daycare.

Sarah: I was just thinking about the spirit days at Big C’s school, and how you’ve shared with me that those spirit days—like pajama day or “everyone wear the school colors day”—for some typical kids can be exciting and fun and a diversion. And for complex kids that can cause a whole level of stress and anticipation and the change of routine. Other parents of non-complex kids might be like, “Whatever, it’s not a big deal.” For our complex kids, it throws them for a loop.

Corey: Yes. My first moment of starting to realize there was something I needed to pay more attention to was they were having a movie day at Big C’s daycare, and they said he kept covering his ears and hiding. And that was my first idea that every other kid was so excited that it was movie day. They’d been looking forward to it. And for my child it was just so loud, and then suddenly the lights were turned off, and the whole situation was throwing him off.

So that’s what I mean. We’re designing the world for kids who are excited about movie day or special event days. But for complex kids, this is a complete change in their routine and all sorts of different sensory things that are happening that can make it really hard for them.

Sarah: Or that they can’t handle as much as other kids. I have a client who was just talking about how she’s realized for her son, who’s nine, that they literally can’t do anything after school. They can’t stop at the store and run in and grab a few things. They really just have to come straight home and not do anything extra or different. And he does so much better when he can just come home and unwind and needs that.

Corey: Yes, exactly. So the world wasn’t designed for them. And then consequently, the world was often not designed for those parents either. So many of the people we work with—including ourselves—only start to realize how complex we are once we start identifying it in our children. So it’s just not really an accommodated world.

Sarah: So talk about how that has led to burnout for you. And by the way, when you started talking about rock stars—in the membership the other day, in office hours, one of our members, I’ll call him D, who works incredibly hard and has two very complex kids, was just sharing how dark and hard life had been feeling for him lately. And I said, honestly, I just want to give you a medal. And I grabbed this off my desk and held it up—this silver milagro from Mexico that’s a bleeding heart. It was the closest thing I had to a medal.

But I really feel like so many parents who have hard or more complex kids, all they feel is that they’re doing a bad job. They don’t realize that they’re up against something other people are not up against. They don’t realize that because that’s all they know—unless you have one kid that’s not complex and one that is—you just don’t know that you’re working so hard and things are still hard. It feels like you must be doing something wrong or failing. What they don’t realize is that you can do everything “right” in peaceful parenting, and things are still really hard if you’ve got a complex kid.

Corey: Yes. And the last thing I want to say to help paint this picture is that these parents—part of what they’re dealing with, and I actually think this is huge—all parents today have a huge amount of family admin: managing appointments and things from the school and all those kinds of things. But that’s this other crushing weight we’re carrying as parents with complex kids: the admin.

Sarah: Right.

Corey: The amount of communication we have to do with daycare providers and teachers almost every day at points—

Sarah: And also the searching. I’ve watched you go through this, and I watched my sister go through this, and countless clients. The searching to try to figure out what exactly is going on with my kid so that I can best support them. And even with the privilege you have and my sister has in terms of being able to access specialists and testing and all of that—even with that privilege—it’s still almost a full-time job. And then getting the OT or the supports too.

Corey: Yes. I started for this podcast listing some of the people I’ve had to coordinate with over the years, and I was like: different types of medical doctors, occupational therapists, speech-language pathologists, psychologists, social workers, dieticians… so many. And just so much coordinating and searching. And the other thing that’s hard is you also then have homework from each of these people. So not only do you have to make appointments and get your children to appointments, you then have to fill out all this paperwork to get reimbursed or get payment sorted. Then there’s all the paperwork they want you to sign for ongoing parts of that. Then they have homework for the kids that they’re supposed to be doing all the time to help them with whatever’s going on. It’s endless.

Sarah: Yeah. And then there’s the day-to-day. Tell us—paint a little picture of the day-to-day living. Not only do we have the world that isn’t built for them or for you, and then all of the extra stuff that goes along with having a complex kid, but then the day-to-day life. Speak to that a little bit.

Corey: Yeah. I think that’s the thing you just see is so painful to talk about for all the people in our membership and our clients, and I’ve experienced it firsthand. You had children to add love to your family. And then you love them so much and you’re struggling because there’s chronic dysregulation, and they’re having such a hard time getting through your daily routines, and they need more supervision than the average child does. Just getting through the day can be really challenging when you have a complex kid. And then if you yourself are complex, your nervous system is getting completely overwhelmed by trying to be the calm for everyone’s storms.

Sarah: It’s a lot, Corey. I understand why you get emotional about it. It’s a lot. And you’re still in the thick of it with two young kids. I think everyone who’s listening to this can relate.

Okay. So how and when did you decide that you were going to quit special time, and what does that look like? And—I just want to center us here—the reason why we do special time is for connection, right? Complex kids need connection just as much or more than typical kids. And so just because we’re saying you might want to quit special time, it does not mean we’re saying you want to quit connection. So what does that look like? What have you found? Because I know you’re super connected with your kids. I’ve seen you together. I know the things they say to you and about you, and that you have an awesome connection. So what do you do for connection when special time does not work?

Corey: A big thing that I’ve been telling clients and that I’ve done in my life is—first of all, I had to acknowledge to myself, it felt like shame. Because here I am—it’s one of the first things we tell everyone we work with: “Are you getting one-on-one time doing special time with your child?” And then I’m sitting there being like, but I don’t really do this. I get a ton of one-on-one time with my children. And I think that’s at the heart of it. But what I realized is because we’re carrying all those weights we talked about, your whole life feels like it’s all about this kid. And then to be like, “You know what? Let’s make it more about you and give you another 15 minutes,” just feels—I almost felt like I don’t have this in me.

So I realized: let’s pick things that we can do together that are interesting for both them and me. Instead of getting locked in their play and being led by them, I’m finding things that we’re co-creating together.

Sarah: And can I just note too that you’ve told me—and I know you said you talked about this in another podcast—but I just want to say it again: a lot of times complex kids’ play doesn’t look like typical kids’ play. So you might be like, “What do you want to play?” and they’re like, “I don’t know.” They don’t have the same kind of “Okay, let’s play store and you be this and I’ll be this.” Or they play with their toys in a different manner. So it can also be just awkward to insist that you play with them when that’s not their style anyway. I just wanted to throw that out there.

Corey: Yeah. And, or if I did, they’re always telling me I’m doing everything wrong.

Sarah: Right. Because I do think that play—I do think that for most kids, even though we’re saying don’t do special time—I do think that for most kids it is important to put yourself in their world. And I don’t want people to think, like, “Okay, this means I never have to try to do special time.” We’re just saying if it’s not working for you for these various reasons—whether it’s because of your own constraints like it was for Joanna, or because it doesn’t work for your kid—it doesn’t mean that you’re doing it wrong and that there’s no way to connect and that you should just give up.

But I do think that—just a side note—I’d say the majority of kids, play in their world is the key to a lot of connection. But for some complex kids, that just isn’t their mode. For some of them.

Corey: Yeah. Because I think we were coming out of special time feeling angry.

Sarah: Right?

Corey: Because we were coming out of it like, “I’m trying to get lost in my child’s world,” and he’s just like, “You’re not doing anything right, Mommy.” It was frustrating for him because he had these ideas and he couldn’t really get me to do it right. And I think for some kids that can be really empowering, where they like that feeling of being in control and telling them. But for him it was frustrating because he’s like, “I had this vision, and you are just not executing.” I’m like, “I don’t know, I’m trying to execute your vision.” So I think that’s why for us, I could just tell it wasn’t just me—neither of us were finding it was working.

Sarah: But—

Corey: We were desperately wanting to be together.

Sarah: Okay. So you said “finding,” right? I interrupted you when you were talking about finding things that were co-interests—things that work for both of you, co-creating.

Corey: Yes. When they were younger, one of the big things I did was buy myself really special pencil crayons and nice watercolor paints because both of them loved doing art. So I could sit and do art with them and use my fancy coloring books and feel very “we are together doing something” that was making me feel really good, but they also felt really happy, and they loved showing me what they were making.

Sarah: And did you let them use your stuff? Because I think that would be really hard for me, because you can’t really be like, “These are my special things, and you use these Crayola ones.” How did you navigate that?

Corey: Okay, so that was really hard. This never would work for my husband, so I’m going to acknowledge for some people this wouldn’t work. I let them grab my crayons, and they dropped them a lot. I acknowledged that they were not going to last. But I still wanted good ones available to me. So I had to be flexible. They definitely grabbed them, and the watercolors were wrecked really quickly. But they respected not touching my special brushes for some reason. So I kept my own special brushes for the painting.

Sarah: You know, that reminds me—one of our members has a just-newly-3-year-old who’s super complex, and she was talking about how she was doing a jigsaw puzzle, like a proper adult thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle. And she was really worried that—since it was on the table in a room where the parents could be—her kid was just going to come in and wreck it. Instead, her child is really good at jigsaw puzzles and is doing them with her. So I think sometimes—she’s totally shocked and thrilled that this has become something—and this is clearly a case of coming into the adult world of a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle. You just reminded me—she put a post in our Facebook group about how… I don’t know, did you see that post?

Corey: Yeah, I did.

Sarah: About how wonderful it’s been to have her just-turned-3-year-old do these adult jigsaw puzzles with her. So that’s a perfect example of what you’re talking about, I think.

Corey: I think it’s—so I love what you’re saying here, because we’re always told “go into their world,” but there’s something really powerful about letting them into yours. I didn’t actually realize that’s what I was doing—I’ve been bringing them into my world with me, and then they feel really special being allowed in there with me. And so it creates this really beautiful thing, but I’m flexible about letting them in there, knowing it’s going to look different.

Sarah: Right. What are some other things that you’ve done besides art that might be inspiring?

Corey: I realized a long time ago I had to let go of the idea that I needed to read really interesting books to my kids so that every night we could look forward to reading beautiful stories that drew me in. We actually realized bedtime has started getting hard again, and we realized it’s because we’re in between books. So that is something—and a shout-out to my mom; she’s really good at researching books—she’s come up with some really cool books that have really diverse characters and really interesting stories. That’s been another really important thing: don’t just read. I’ve picked really good books that draw me in.

And so last night we actually just started a favorite series of mine. I kid you not, I’m reading to my 10-year-old a feminist fantasy book that I read when I was a tween. It’s called Dealing with Dragons, and he actually is loving it.

Sarah: Nice. So you’re saying—maybe you misspoke—you said you had to give up on reading books that you… beautiful books that you liked. But did you mean that you were finding beautiful books that you liked?

Corey: Yeah, sorry, that’s—earlier on I felt like I was just reading, you know, books that I thought they would like.

Sarah: Oh, okay.

Corey: But instead I was like, “The heck with that,” and I found books that I loved, and I started reading those to my kids. And then they loved them. And then that really got us so excited about bedtime.

Sarah: Great, great.

Corey: We got through it, and we would read that together, and it became—I actually think reading books that I love to my kids has become one of the most important special times that we have each day.

Sarah: So another co-creating—something that’s interesting to both of you. And it’s not necessarily going into their world and reading the Captain Underpants or something that they might like that you find mind-numbingly boring. And maybe Captain Underpants isn’t boring—I’ve never read it—but I’m just using that as an example.

Corey: That’s a perfect example. So it’s like, here, I’m providing those books for them to read to themselves for their reading time. Absolutely—read all the Captain Underpants, the Dog Man you would like. But my goodness, when I’m reading to you, I’m picking something. And look, we’ve abandoned lots of books that we started reading that they couldn’t get into. We keep—we just keep trying.

Sarah: Okay. What else—what else is next?

Corey: Exercise.

Sarah: Okay.

Corey: I’ve realized exercise for me is the number one way for me to deal with stress. Of all things, I need to exercise to help manage stress. And it’s very hard to fit in exercise when you have complex kids. So from the time they were little, we’ve been very flexible about how we’ve done it. But my husband and I have—once again, instead of picking things they’re naturally into (this is starting to sound really funny)—we just brought them into our exercise with us, and they love it. From the time they were little, we had a balance bike for my littlest guy. He was on that balance bike, and we were riding bikes together.

So my littlest one ended up being able to ride a regular bike before he was three.

Sarah: Same with Maxine. Those balance bikes are amazing. She just—yeah. It’s crazy.

Corey: Yeah. And sometimes—

Sarah: Sometimes you’re like, “What have I done?” The 3-year-old is riding off.

Corey: It’s true. It was unbelievable, though. So we just rode our bikes together. From the time ours were very little, we had them as little guys on—you can get an attachment to your bike—and my husband put them on his road bike with him and would take them for rides on his road bike.

Sarah: There’s also the trailer bike too, which we had, which is good.

Corey: So we did that. We had our youngest on skis when he was two. COVID kind of interrupted some of that, but now we ski every weekend with our kids, and we decided to do that instead of putting them into organized sports so that we would all be doing it together.

Sarah: Oh, I love that. Instead of dropping them off and they’re playing soccer, you’re all doing stuff together.

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: I mean, and you could—and, you know, for other families—you could just go and kick the ball. Or I always say, chase your kids around the playground if you feel like you don’t have time to exercise but you need to. It can be that simple, right? Kicking the ball around, chasing them around the playground—get some exercise and have some connection time too.

Corey: Yeah. One of the ways we got our one son kind of good at running is taking the kite to the park, and we just ran around with the kite. But we started even going to—and I advised another family to do this—going to a track together, because it’s a contained area where everyone could run at different speeds. And the really little ones were playing on the inside of the track with soccer balls and things like that, and then everyone else could be running around the track.

Sarah: Love it.

Corey: So getting really creative about literally bringing them into our world of things that we love, and then connecting deeply. And it’s one of those things where it’s an investment you make over time. It starts small, and you have to be really flexible. And there are these little hands grabbing all your fancy pencil crayons, and you’re having to deal with it. And then one day you’re sitting beside them, and they’re using them themselves—drawing works of art.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah.

Corey: And it’s happening now where my older son and I have been going for runs together around the neighborhood, and we have the best talks ever because I’m sideways listening. We should talk about sideways listening, actually.

Sarah: Okay.

Corey: So I learned about this from you. You have a great article—I recommend it to everyone—it’s called “Staying Close to Your Tweens and Teens,” and that’s where you talk about how it’s actually easier for people, I think, to have important conversations when you’re side to side, because it’s not that intensity of looking at each other’s faces. This is extra true for neurodivergent people who sometimes have a hard time with eye contact and talking in that way. So we go for these runs together all around our neighborhood, and I hear everything from my son during that time because we’re side by side. So it’s become special time, where it started when I taught him to come into my world with the track running and all the different things, and now that we’re running, he’s bringing me into his world.

Sarah: Love it. Do you find that a lot of complex kids have special interests—do you find that there’s a way that you can connect with them over their special interest? Does that feel connecting to you if it’s not something—like, I’m literally just curious about that.

Corey: I think that can be tricky, but I do think it’s very important. I’ve learned that I was having a hard time with how much my kids loved video games because I’ve never liked video games. And, you know, as someone with ADHD, it’s so hard to focus on things that I don’t find interesting. And I realized that I’ve spent all this time cultivating bringing them into my world, and we’ve gotten to such a beautiful, connected space that I do need to go into theirs. And now that they’re older, I’m finding it is easier to go into their world, because we’re not trying to make some sort of play thing happen that wasn’t natural.

Sarah: Right.

Corey: So I have been making a point now of—I’ve sat down and been like, “Show me how to play. I’m a beginner. Teach me how to do this.” And I’ve been playing video games with them. I’m so bad.

Sarah: You know, in our podcast with Scott Novus about how to stop fighting with your kids about video games, he says how good it is for kids to see you be bad at something.

Corey: They’re seeing it.

Sarah: I love that.

Corey: I’m so bad. I cannot even a little bit. So they find it very funny. I’ve been playing with them and letting them talk to me about it, and I’ve found that’s been really important too. Because I keep on saying, “Do you see why they love this so much?” And I’m kind of like, yes—and I see what skills you’re learning now that I’ve tried it. It takes so much skill and practice to be good at these complex video games on the Switch and on the PlayStation. So I am learning a lot, and I feel like we are shifting now, where I found a way to connect with them by bringing them along with what I was into, and now that they’re older, we are switching where I’m able to go back into their world.

Sarah: Right. Love it. So we also—you know, I think delighting is something that probably you still do, and we always talk about that as the low-hanging fruit. If you can’t do special time or it doesn’t work for you, delighting in your child throughout the day—letting the love that you feel in your heart show on your face, right? And then finally, you talked about using routine—the things that you do throughout the day—as connection. Can you talk about that a little bit before we go?

Corey: Yes. So this is where long-time listeners of our podcast know that although special time is a big fail for us, I’m really good at being silly with my kids. Really good at being silly. And I’m very inspired listening to Mia from Playful Heart—Playful Heart Parenting. I think I told you, listening to her talk, it was like the first time I heard someone talking about exactly how I do playful parenting. And it’s just injecting play and silliness and drama throughout your everyday things you’re doing together. And so we do that all the time to get through the schedule. Especially now, my 10-year-old is starting to act a little too cool for some of this, but it’s still really happening with my 7-year-old, where we’re always singing weird songs about what we’re doing, and I’ll take on weird accents and be my characters. I’m not going to demonstrate them here—it’s far too embarrassing—but I still have my long-running characters I can’t get over.

Sarah: You’ve got, like, the dental hygienist—what’s her name?

Corey: Karen. Karen the dental hygienist.

Sarah: What’s the bus driver’s name?

Corey: I have Brett the bus driver. We have “Deep Breath,” who’s like a yogi who comes in when everyone needs to take deep breaths. There’s—oh, her name’s So? I’m not sure why. So is the dresser who’s really serious and doesn’t know how to smile. So if my kids ever need help—this has also been a big way that I delight in them, I think—if they ever need help getting dressed (which complex kids need help getting dressed for a long—)

Sarah: And even body doubling when they don’t need help getting dressed, right?

Corey: Yes. So I would always pretend to be a dresser who was sent in to get them dressed in their clothes, and they didn’t know how to smile. So they’re always trying to teach me how to smile when I’m keeping a serious face. And actually, recently I was doing this and I was having such a hard time not laughing that my lips started visibly quivering trying not to smile and laugh.

Sarah: I love that.

Corey: I think it was the hardest I’ve ever seen my 7-year-old laugh. He was on the floor laughing because I was like—

Sarah: And for anyone who this sounds hard for—just, you know, it takes practice, and anyone, I think, can learn to be playful. And I love Mia’s account—we’ll link to that in the show notes. I love Mia’s account for ideas just to get you started, because I know you—you’re a drama kid. I’m not. But I still found ways to get playful even though it’s not my natural instinct. And so you can—this way of getting playful and connecting through the day and through your daily routine—you can do that. It’ll take maybe a little practice; you might feel funny at first. But I think it’s possible for everyone to do that.

So thank you so much. We have to wrap up, but I also want to point out that anyone who wants to connect with you, reach out to us. Corey’s available for coaching. She’s a wonderful coach. And I have people who specifically ask for Corey because they can relate to Corey’s experience as a parent of complex kids. And so, on our website, reimaginepeacefulparenting.com, there is a booking link for a free short consult or for a coaching session. We’ll also put that in the show notes. So if you want some more support, please reach out to us. Either of us are here and want to help you.

And, Corey, thank you for your honesty and vulnerability—vulnerability about being a parent of a complex kid and sharing how you can do that connection, even if it feels like special time is just too hard and something that doesn’t work for you or for your kid. And thanks to Joanna for also inspiring us to get this out there to you all.

Corey, before I let you go, I’m going to ask the question I ask all my guests, which is: what would you tell your—you had a time machine and you could go back in time—what would you tell your younger parent self?

Corey: Okay.

Sarah: About parenting? What do you wish you knew?

Corey: I think what I wish I knew—I think this is easier than I thought it would be, because I just told my best friend who just had a baby this—and it’s: trust your intuition. I think I spent so much time looking for answers outside of myself, and I could feel they weren’t right for my kid or for me, that I was so confused because other people were telling me, “This is what you should be doing.” And the more I’ve learned to trust my gut instinct and just connect deeply—and this special time example is perfect—I knew it wasn’t working for us, and I intuitively knew other ways to do it. And I wish I could have just trusted that earlier.

Sarah: And stopped doing it sooner and just gone with the other connection ideas. Yeah. Thank you so much, Corey. This has been so great. And, again, we’ll put the link to anyone who wants to book a free short consult or coaching session, and also to our membership, which you’ve heard us mention a few times, which is just a wonderful space on the internet for people who want some community and support with their complex kid.

Thanks, Corey.

Corey: Thank you.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I do a coaching call with Joanna who has a 2-year-old and a 7-year-old.

We cover how to make mindset shifts so you can better show up for your kids, as well as get into specifics around night weaning, bedtime battles, handling meltdowns, playful parenting and increasing our connection to our kids.

Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!

We talk about:

6:40 how to manage meltdowns
9:00 Night weaning and bedtime challenges
20:00 Emptying a full emotional backpack
26:00 Kids who always want more attention
28:00 Understanding blame and anger
38:00 Games to play when a child is looking for more power
44:00 How our mindset makes such a big difference when parenting
47:30 Two keys to peaceful parenting!
55:00 Playful approaches to bedtime

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
How to Help Our Little Ones Sleep with Kim Hawley
Episode 100: When Your Child Has a Preferred Parent (or Not) with Sarah and Corey
Episode 103: Playful Parenting with Lawrence Cohen
Playful Heart Parenting with Mia Wisinski: Episode 186

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Transcript:

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s episode is a coaching episode. My guest is Joanna, mom of a 7-year-old and a 2-year-old. Joanna’s 7-year-old is an intense child, and she wanted to know how to handle her big feelings and find more connection with her.

She also had some specific challenges around bedtime, namely that her partner works shift work and is not home at bedtime. She still breastfeeds her 2-year-old to sleep, so is unavailable to her seven-year-old for a bit, and then has trouble getting her seven-year-old to bed without a fight. Joanna also shared how low she was on resources, and we had a great discussion about how that impacts her parenting and what she might do about it.

Also, meltdowns—we talked about those too and how to respond. I know Joanne is not alone. One note: after we did the follow-up call, I realized I forgot to ask her about a few things. So she kindly recorded a couple of P.S.’s that I’ll include. If you’re curious, like I am, you’ll be glad she gave us the latest updates.

If you would like to come on the podcast and be coached by me, I am looking for a few parents who are interested. You can email me at sarah@sarahrosensweet.com.

As always, please give us a five-star rating and a review on your favorite podcast app, and if you know another parent or caregiver that this would be helpful for, please screenshot it and send it to them. The best way to reach more families with peaceful parenting is through word of mouth, so we really appreciate any shares that you might be able to give us.

Okay. Let’s meet Joanna. Okay.

Sarah: Hi Joanna. Welcome to the podcast.

Joanna: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Sarah: Tell me a little bit about yourself.

Joanna: Sure. I live up in Ottawa, Canada, with my husband and my two kids. I’m a music therapist, so right now I’m working with babies. I teach Yoga with Baby and, um, a class called Sing and Sign at a local wellness center.

Sarah: Nice. How old are—

Joanna: Yes, I have a 7-year-old girl who we’ll call Jay.

Sarah: Okay.

Joanna: And then a 2-year-old boy called JR.

Sarah: JJ. Okay, perfect. Okay, so how can I support you today?

Joanna: Yeah, so my daughter has always been, like, a bit of a tricky one. Um. She was born premature, so at 29 weeks. And no kind of lasting effects. But as she’s gotten older, we’ve noticed, like, she’s really struggled a lot with emotional regulation. Um, and she kind of gets stuck on certain behaviors. So I feel like we’ve done a lot to change our parenting, in part thanks to you and your podcast and all the material. Um, I did finally read, um, Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids this past summer.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: And I feel like it also had a huge effect, just having, like, that bigger scope of understanding of, like, the peaceful parenting philosophy.

Sarah: Uh-huh.

Joanna: So I would say, like, even from where we were a few months ago, we’ve experienced tons of positive shifts with her.

Sarah: Sweet.

Joanna: Yeah, so we’re already kind of well on our way, but there are certain behaviors that she has that still I find really perplexing. So I wondered if maybe we could go over a couple of them.

Sarah: Sure. Yeah, no problem. For anyone—if, for anyone who doesn’t know, Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids is the book written by my mentor, who I trained with, Dr. Laura Markham. Um, and just for my own curiosity, what do you think? Because, you know, I always worry that people are—that they don’t have the fully formed idea of peaceful parenting. And that—and I’m not saying you, because you’ve listened to the podcast so you probably have a deeper understanding—but some people are just getting their little snippets on Instagram reels, you know, and so it is hard to understand, like, the, the sort of the core reasons why we do the approach if you don’t have that deeper understanding. And also, I’m working on a book right now, so hopefully soon you’ll be able to say you read my book. But what did you—what do you feel like got fleshed out for you when you read that book?

Joanna: I think she really breaks a lot of things down step by step, such as, like, what to do when your child is going through a meltdown.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: And that has always been an area—like, when my daughter gets to that point where she’s, like, become really explosive and aggressive and she’s just, like, in it and she’s kind of unreachable at that moment—like, what to do step by step at that time. I think, like, that’s been the most helpful because I’ve been able to really settle into my own parenting and just, like, really trust myself and anchor in at that point, which is exactly really what she needs and what was missing.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Joanna: So—

Sarah: So I think, um—like I always say, focus on regulating yourself first. Like, when someone’s having a meltdown, empathize.

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: Um, you know, it—yeah, it’s—it can be hard because you often feel like you need to do something. And even though you’re saying step by step, it’s less about doing anything than just centering yourself, staying calm yourself, trying to get in touch with the compassion and empathy even if you’re not—some pe—some parents say, “Oh, well, when I try to say anything, then my kid just screams more.” So sometimes it’s just empathize—like, getting connected in your own heart to the empathy and compassion, even if you’re not saying anything—and that, that does something.

Joanna: Absolutely it does. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Joanna: Yeah, so that’s all been really helpful. Now, in—in terms of emotional regulation, I do definitely think that that’s the biggest piece.

Sarah: Okay.

Joanna: Uh, it’s been the biggest piece for me and sort of, like, one of the big things that I wanted to talk to you about today is we are still really not getting sleep because my 2-year-old is not a good sleeper and has never been a good sleeper. And we’ve gone through periods where I’m like, okay, now he’s only waking up, like, twice a night, and that feels manageable. Um, but he’s kind of been back to waking up, like, three to six times a night again, which is so hard. And then my husband’s very supportive; however, he works afternoons, so he’s gone from about 3:00 PM to 1:00 AM, so he needs to be able to sleep until about eight, which means I’m up with my son between six and seven. My daughter gets up for school around 7:30, so that’s, like, a tricky time of day because she’s really quite grumpy in the morning. He’s not—the toddler’s really, like, kind of a totally different temperament. But, like, I’m tired after struggling with, like, night wakings all night. And then I’m with the kids from the time that she gets home from school, um, and then doing both bedtimes myself.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: Um, so there’s a lot of time where, like, I am solo parenting, and I’m definitely, like, the preferred parent. Um, and both my kids really want me and need me at bedtime. So he is still nursing—like, I’m nursing to sleep and then nursing during the night. And I know that that’s probably contributing a lot to all the night wakings. So, I guess my question is, like, I am at the point where I am ready to night-wean. I probably should have done it already, but—

Sarah: Don’t say “should have.” Like, it’s—if you’re not ready to make that change, like, in your heart, it’s really torturous to try to—try to, like, not—so say you decide you want to night-wean, but you weren’t really ready to do it. It would be so painful for you to deny your son nursing in the night if you were—if you didn’t feel in your heart, like, “No, this is the right thing to do. I’m totally ready. I think he’s ready.” So, so I think waiting until you’re really, like, actually, yes, “I’m done with this,” is a smart thing. Yeah. So don’t beat yourself up for not having done it already. But you’re right, it probably does contribute to him waking up in the night.

Joanna: Yeah. And, um, I do feel like I—I’m ready. I just—I’m not quite sure how to make that shift. So what generally happens is, like, we have some, like, virtual babysitting going on with my mom, where, like, when I nurse my son to sleep, which generally takes, like, between maybe 30 and 45 minutes, she’ll, like, sit with her and do a workbook. So we’ll have, like, a video chat, and then after—

Sarah: Yeah, it’s great.

Joanna: So then after, um, I’m with her to get her ready for bed, and that oftentimes looks like a lot of, like, dragging heels on, like, “Oh, I want another snack,” and “I wanna, like, brush my teeth,” and “Whatever—don’t wanna brush my teeth.” So, um, then that ends up taking usually about an hour, but we both sort of have, like, this expiration at about 9:00 PM, where, like, she just gets so dysregulated because she’s so tired.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: So if I don’t have her in bed at that point and, like, already kind of with the lights out, there’s often just, like, a meltdown and some—like, she’ll start calling me names and start, like, you know, throwing stuff down at me and whatnot. And then I’m just really tired by that point too. Yeah. So we can kind of joke around about it now—like, nine o’clock is the time where we’re, like, where we both expire. So I’m trying to figure out, like, how can I night-wean? Because I know that that is supposed to start with, like, him being able to fall asleep by himself at the beginning of the night, so—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: Slowly phasing that out and laying with him. I know it’s gonna probably take a lot longer in the beginning, so I’m just a little worried that, like, maybe if it takes, like, an hour, an hour and a half, then all of a sudden she’s kind of, like, left hanging and it’s getting later and her bedtime’s being pushed back.

Sarah: Are there any—are there any nights that your partner is home at bedtime?

Joanna: There’s two—

Sarah: nights that—

Joanna: he—

Sarah: is,

Joanna: yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I guess I would start with those nights.

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. Start with those nights. And—and when was your son’s birthday? Like, like how—two—is he—

Joanna: He just turned two, like, two weeks ago.

Sarah: Okay. So, I mean, I think I would start with trying to just practice, you know, nursing him and maybe nursing him somewhere else and then bringing him back, you know, and then putting him in—are you co-sleeping?

Joanna: Sleep—yeah. Well, I put him—like, I generally nurse him to sleep. He has a floor bed in his room, and then I go to bed in my own room, and then at his first wake, then I go back in, and I just stay there for the room—the rest of the night from that point.

Sarah: Right, right. So I, I guess I would try just, like, nursing him and trying to, like, pat his back and sing to him and, you know, tell him that—that he can have—I, I mean, what we did was, “You can have milk in the morning,” you know, “You could have it when it’s light.” I remember my oldest son—when he—it took him a couple of days—and if you wanna hear the whole story of my failed night-weaning with my second son, it was in a podcast that we did about infant and toddler sleep, uh, with Kim.

Joanna: Yeah, Kim?

Sarah: Yes. So you could listen to that if you haven’t heard that already. But my second—my first son was super easy to night-wean, and a couple of—it was, like, a couple of nights of a little bit of crying, and he would just say, “Make it light, Mama. Make it light,” because he wanted—I said, “You can nurse when it’s light.” But, you know, I, I, I don’t wanna get into that whole big thing on this podcast because—mm-hmm—just because I’ve already talked about it. But if you wanna listen to that, and if you have any questions when we do our follow-up, you can, uh, you can ask me. But, you know, I would just try, you know, talking to him about, then, you know, “You can have Milky in the morning,” or whatever you call it, and, you know, those two—see how it goes for those two nights where your partner’s around. And if it doesn’t—I would say, if it still seems really hard, maybe just waiting to do it until—I don’t know if you have any other support you could enlist. You mentioned your mother—maybe she could come and visit, you know, because I do think it would be hard to try and do this and do the solo bedtimes for a while. So I don’t know if there’s a time when your mom could come visit or if there’s some other support that you could have. But yeah—

Joanna: I think the tricky part with that is that, like, she—even with my husband—like, she doesn’t want him to put her to bed.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: And depending on the kind of night that she’s having, sometimes she’ll end up, like, screaming, and their bedrooms are right beside each other. So we’ve had it before where, like, she’ll start having a meltdown and, like, wake him up, and then he’s not able to fall asleep either. And then we—

Sarah: There’s also—your husband could be with your son.

Joanna: It’s the same—same situation though. Like, he doesn’t—him—

Sarah: It sounds—it sounds like possibly—I mean, there—kids do have preferred parents even when, um, they do have good connection with the—with the other parent. And you could maybe still work—have some—that be something that you’re working on, having your partner, you know, maybe even practicing having—before you start doing the night-weaning—practicing having your partner doing some of the bedtime stuff. When you are—when, you know, when—before you’re starting to make a change so that your son doesn’t associate, you know, “I’m not getting what I want,” and my dad, you know, putting me to sleep.

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: So I would maybe try to get your partner a little bit more involved in bedtime before making a change. And—and even if there’s some crying—we also have a podcast about preferred parents that you could listen to. So I—you know, I think maybe you do have a little bit of pre-work to do before you start doing the night-weaning, and, in terms of when—how can you get support at bedtime?

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: Okay.

Joanna: I mean, the other option is if you just kick it down the road more and—or, you know, there isn’t—there’s actually a third option now that I think about it—it’s that you still nurse him to sleep but then don’t nurse him when you wake him up—when he wakes up in the night. Get him to go back to sleep without that.

Sarah: I hadn’t thought about that, because I think that everything that I’ve heard has been, like, they have to fall asleep on their own because then they’re always gonna be—

Joanna: looking—

Sarah: for—

Joanna: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: But I mean, you could still try it.

Joanna: Hmm. Okay.

Sarah: Or you could try shortening the—you know, give him a little bit of milk and then see if he’ll go to sleep, um, after he has a little bit, but without nursing to sleep.

Joanna: Okay. Yeah. Okay, I’ll give that some thought and try some different things there.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: Okay. Thank you. But yeah, I feel like just starting to get sleep again is pretty important. So, even in terms of, like, being able to center myself to handle all of the things that goes on with my daughter during the day, that feels like a really important piece right now.

Sarah: For sure. And if she’s—if she’s some nights not going—it sounds like quite frequently maybe she’s not asleep before nine.

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: And what time does she wake up?

Joanna: 7:30.

Sarah: 7:30. So do you think she’s getting enough sleep?

Joanna: Probably not. She’s really lethargic in the morning.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: But I can’t really seem to figure out how to be able to get her to sleep. Like, I did talk to her about it, and she was like, “Well, maybe when I turn eight, like, I can start putting myself to bed.” And I was like, “Okay, well what—what would that look like?” And she kind of went through, like, “Okay, I’ll, you know, I’ll brush my teeth on the phone with Grandma, and then I’ll just, like, read in bed.” And—but this is, like, in a moment where she’s feeling very regulated.

Sarah: Right, right, right. And when’s her birthday?

Joanna: Uh, in about two months.

Sarah: Okay. Yeah. Um, have you had a conversation with her about how neither of you likes the fighting at night? And, you know—and does she have any, like—not in the moment, but does she have any ideas of, you know, how you can solve the problem of her not, you know, not wanting to go to bed and then getting too tired and then getting really cranky?

Joanna: Yeah, we have—we have talked about it, and we can talk about it with, like, a little bit more levity now, but I don’t think that she’s actually—we’ve gone to, like, the problem-solving—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: of that.

Sarah: I mean, that might be a helpful conversation to have with her and just say, “You know, I’ve been thinking about what often happens at night, you know, and I totally get it, that you don’t wanna go to bed. Like, you know, when I was a kid, I never wanted to go to bed, and I would’ve stayed up all night if I could. And I’m sure you’re the same because it’s just—you know, when you’re young, going to bed is, like, you know, not any fun at all.” And you can make—you could even make a joke, like, “When you’re old like me, like, you can’t wait to go to bed.” But of course when you’re young, you don’t wanna go to sleep, and I totally get that. So, like, lots of empathy and acknowledging, like, her perspective. And—and then you could say, “And at the same time, you know, you do—you know, why do you think it’s important to sleep?” So I guess you could have that conversation with her too about, like, you know, what happens when we’re sleeping that—your, you know, you could talk about how your cells, like, fix themselves. Also we grow when we’re sleeping—like, we get the—like, the growth hormone gets secreted, and that’s the—if we don’t get enough sleep, we’re not gonna grow and we’re not gonna feel happy the next day. So you can, like, talk to her about the importance of sleep. And then you could say, like, “So, you know, I know you don’t wanna go to sleep, and I know how important it is, and now you do too. And, you know—and I hate fighting with you at bedtime. You know, do you have any ideas for how we can solve this problem? Because I really want us both to go to bed feeling happy and connected.”

Joanna: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great suggestion. Thank you. I think the biggest barrier to her getting to bed on time is she is finally feeling, like, a bit more calm and relaxed at night. Like, she comes home after school with a lot—she’s holding a lot from school. They have, like, a point system for good behavior at school.

Sarah: Oh.

Joanna: And you should see how she racks up the points. She has great behavior at school. The teacher’s, like—would never believe what goes on at home.

Sarah: Of course, yeah.

Joanna: So then she comes home, and it’s, like, a lot of unloading. So I feel like by that time of night she’s, like, ready to pursue her hobbies. Like, she’s like, “Oh, I just wanna do this one more little”—you know, she’s drawing something, and it’s always like, “I just need to finish this,” because once she gets started on something, she can’t seem to break her focus on—We’re very much suspecting ADHD. That’s gonna be probably in the next year we pursue a diagnosis, but—

Sarah: Typically—do have a lot of trouble falling asleep—that’s with ADHD. What about—you know, so two outta three of my kids had a lot of trouble falling asleep, and they’re both my ADHD kids, and what really helped them was something to listen to at night. You know—

Joanna: Yeah, she does listen to podcasts falling asleep—

Sarah: Does listen to stuff.

Joanna: Yeah, she’s always listened—listened to, like, a story falling asleep. I think part of it too is we don’t get a lot of one-on-one time throughout the day.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: Because my son’s around in the morning.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: And it’s usually just the three of us until my husband wakes up, which is shortly before she goes to school. And then it’s again the three of us from after school till bedtime most days, except for the two days a week that he’s off.

Sarah: Well, I mean, that’s something to explore too, like, in—are there, you know—I don’t know if you live in a neighborhood that has some, like, tweens that could come over and play with your son for an hour—you know, just someone really fun that he would like to play with—and then you and your daughter could have some time together. Because what I was gonna say when you said that she comes home with what we call the “full backpack” in Peaceful Parenting—which is, she’s been carrying around, for anyone who’s listening who doesn’t know what that is, it’s a concept that my mentor, Dr. Laura, came up with—where you’re holding on to all of the stresses, big feelings, tensions from the day, and then when you come home, it’s too much to, you know, to keep holding onto it. And so that’s what you were just referring to, is just that she’s got a lot to unpack after the day at school. And so I’m wondering—so when you mentioned that, I was gonna say, like, what could you do to try to proactively get some of that emptied out? Couple of ideas: do you do any roughhousing with her?

Joanna: We actually just started doing that, and I couldn’t believe how much she was into it. Yeah, I was super surprised. But I also think that it’s taken just a lot of, like, repair with our relationship to get to the point that I’ve even been able to try some of this stuff. Like, because at first, like, when I first started hearing about some of these, like, peaceful—I, I don’t know if you’d call them techniques—but, like, being playful and, um, roughhousing and things like that—she was so not open to anything at all because she was just so serious and so edgy and like, “Get away from me,” like, so irritable. So now I think that we’ve just—I’ve poured a lot of time in on weekends just to, like, spend time together that’s enjoyable, and I’m noticing a huge shift. So now we are able to do some of these things, and it—it is turning out more positively.

Sarah: Good. I mean, as you’re speaking, I’m thinking that it sounds like there was maybe, um, quite a—a breach when your son was born, like, the last two years. Or, or do you feel like your relationship has always been a little strained even before that?

Joanna: I feel like maybe it’s always been a little fraught. I don’t know if his birth had, like, a huge impact on that. Um, it has always been pretty strained.

Sarah: Okay, okay.

Joanna: Just because she’s the more challenging kid?

Sarah: I think so. And, you know, when she was two there was the pandemic. I think, like, I was carrying a lot of trauma after the whole NICU experience with her. And then we had the pandemic, and then we moved, and then I got pregnant, and then I had my son. So it’s like there’s sort of been these, like, things along the way where—yeah, I don’t know.

Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, that’s good that you brought that up because I think that, you know, maybe that’s gonna be the pre-work—that even before bedtime starts to feel better is really working on—you know, if you can get some support in, because it is really hard to have one-on-one time with a 2-year-old who probably doesn’t wanna leave you alone. But even if—you know, continue with your sort of bulking up on the weekends with that time with her and do some, like, roughhousing and special time with her. Do you guys do special time?

Joanna: Yeah. And that’s something I wanted to talk about because special time has been sort of a big fail when I call it special time and when we set a timer for special time, because it really tends to dysregulate her, I think, because she’s like, “Oh my God, I only have you for 15 minutes.” Mm-hmm. She gets really stressed out, and then she’s like—oftentimes she likes to do these, like, elaborate pretend plays—things which need, like, a lot, a lot of setup time. Yeah. So she’ll be like, “Pause the timer so I can set this up,” and then it just becomes, like, more tension between us. Like, it’s not enjoyable.

Sarah: It’s one of those things where, like, you really have to adjust it to how it works for your particular family. Um, so, you know, maybe you just have, like, a couple hours with her on the weekend and you’re—and it would be good for your—your partner and your son too. Maybe he could take him to the park or go and—you know, for them to work on their connection, which might make him a little bit more willing to go to bed with his dad, you know, on the nights that your partner is home. So, you know, I would really work on that connection with her and do those pretend play things with her. And even—you know, and this is maybe obvious, which is why I didn’t say it before—but, you know, partly she’s dragging her heels because that’s the only time she has you to herself—at bedtime, right?

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: And so she doesn’t want that to end because that’s the only time that it—her brother’s asleep—she has you all to herself. So if you can increase the time where she has you all to herself, she might be more willing to, um, to go to bed. Yeah. The other thing I was gonna say is, do you have anything that you do together at bedtime that would be, like—it sounds like she’s dragging her heels to actually get in bed. Is there anything that you can do to entice her to get in bed, like a chapter book that you’re reading her, that you read a chapter every night or something like that?

Joanna: Yeah, and that has worked in the past, but it can—it can also kind of cause tension because I find, like, then I am a lot more apt to kind of hold it as, like, a bargaining chip instead of, like, “Oh, let’s get to that.” Right. But lately we’ve been playing cards, and she’s really motivated to, like, play a game of cards when we’re in bed. So that seems to be working right now, but it’s always kind of like—it changes all the time.

Sarah: Right, right. Well, just keeping—thinking of something that you can use to make getting in bed seem more attractive? Um, maybe—I mean, my kids used to love hearing stories about me when I was little or about them when they were little. So it could even just be, like, a talk time. I know Corey, who works with me, does—she started doing a 10-minute talk time with one of her sons, who’s a little bit older than—than your daughter, but where they just have, you know, this time where they just get in bed and he tells her stuff and they—they talk. So that could be something too—just really pure, straight-up connection.

Joanna: Yeah. Okay, I like that. Maybe I can just ask you a couple more things about some of the things I—She’s kind of a person that really wants constant connection too. Like, it does feel like I could spend, like, all day with her, and then she—once it’s over, she would still be like, “Well, why are we not still—” like, it—we’ve always kind of—my husband and I will joke that she’s got, like, a leaky cup because it’s, like, “Just fill up their cup,” but it doesn’t seem to matter. He used to play with her for, like, two to three hours when she was younger, and then at the end she would just, like, not be satisfied. Like, it didn’t seem like anything was going to, like, fill her cup.

Sarah: And that—you know what, there are kids like that. I remember I had this client once whose son actually said to her, “Mama, all the—all the hours in the world are not enough time with you.” And there are some kids that are really just like that. And, you know, I’m not sure how you respond when she says, like, you know, “But we hardly even got to play,” after you play for three hours. I mean, that playful—like, “Oh my gosh, like, what if we could just play all day?” You know, either, like, playful response of, like, “We could play for 27 hours,” you know, “and—and—and we would still have so much fun together.” Or just pure empathy, you know, like, “Oh no, it just feels like it’s never enough time, is it?”

Joanna: And it almost seems like sometimes when I am empathetic, it almost, like, fuels her anger. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard that before from anybody else, but—eh, I don’t know. Like, we had a situation with—like, she was looking for a specific bear last weekend—a teddy bear that she’s missing—because she wanted to bring it to a teddy bear picnic. And so we were sort of, like, you know, we had to get out the door to go to this party. She couldn’t find this bear, and I was, like, you know, offering a lot of empathy, and just, like—the more that I was like, “I know, like, you’re so frustrated; you’re so disappointed that you can’t find your bear,” it was like the more that she was like, “Yeah, and you took it, you hid it, you put it somewhere.” Like, it just—the more empathy I gave, it seemed like the more that she was using it as almost, like, fuel to be upset. Does that make sense? Right.

Sarah: Yeah. No, that’s pretty common. And the thing is, you have to remember that blame is trying to offload difficult feelings. It’s like, “I don’t wanna feel this way, so I’m gonna blame you.” And then—you know, it’s anger—have you ever seen the image of the anger iceberg?

Joanna: Yes.

Sarah: Yeah. So the anger iceberg is, like, the anger is the only thing you see coming out of the water. But underneath the iceberg are all of the more tender feelings, right? And anger is actually a secondary emotion. So you don’t start out by feeling angry. You feel—like, like for her, she maybe was feeling frustrated and disappointed that she couldn’t find her bear. And those are the first feelings. But those more tender feelings are harder to feel, and so anger is often protective. And the tender feelings also set off that—you know, that overwhelm of our emotions registers as a threat to the nervous system, which sets off that fight, flight, or freeze. So there’s all those things going on, right? Like, the blame of, like, trying to offload the feelings; the anger of feeling like it’s easier to go on the offensive than to feel those tender feelings; and then the nervous system getting set off by that overwhelm that registers as a threat, right? It sets off the fight, flight, or freeze. And they’re—they’re kind of all different ways of saying the same thing. And yes, empathy often will help a child—that they get more in touch with those feelings. And I’m not saying that you don’t wanna empathize, um, but just recognize that, you know, the feelings are happening, and when you empathize, they—you know, you’re welcoming the feelings, which sometimes can have that fight, flight, or freeze effect.

Joanna: And would you recommend that I continue to really lean into empathy more and just stay with all of that emotion until it passes?

Sarah: So—totally depends. The other thing I was gonna say is it’s possible—like the situation you just gave me—it’s possible—like, how—were you actually feeling empathetic, or were you trying to just get out the door?

Joanna: I think I was, but at a certain point I was like, “I think, you know, we have two options from here. Like, we can continue to be upset about the bear and it—it will make us late for the party, or at a certain point we can move on and make a new plan,” and, like, “get our—make our way over there.” So, um, is that effective? Yeah, I—I mean, she eventually was able to change gears. But, I mean, it doesn’t feel like real life to just be able to, like, sit in your negative emotions all the time. And I think, like, maybe I struggle with doing that for, like, a long enough period of time to actually let her—let them out.

Sarah: Well, I don’t know—yeah. So, I mean, there’s a difference between welcoming feelings and wallowing in emo—in emotion, I think.

Joanna: Yeah. And she definitely is a wallower, and she almost has really, like, attached so much sadness and frustration and anger to this bear. Like, now she’ll just, like, think about the bear and be like, “Oh, I still can’t find that bear.” Like, she was just, like, you know, exploding about it again this past weekend. So it almost feels like she’s just latching onto it to, like, feel bad there.

Sarah: I mean, some kids—she’s probably not choosing to latch onto it to feel bad, but she probably just has. So, so what I was gonna say is sometimes when kids seem to be wallowing, it’s just that there’s so much there that they haven’t been able to get out on a regular basis. So I think it is just like a full backpack, and there’s just a lot there. And it’s not—it’s probably not just about the bear. It’s probably just like she’s—it’s, you know, processing other older things too. And you don’t have to know what’s in the backpack or try and figure it out. But you might find that if you had more opportunities for her to process feelings, then she might not get so stuck when they do start to come out.

That’s one thing that I would think of. Like—and more laughter should help with that. Like, more laughter and roughhousing to help her sort of process stuff. And also sometimes—so the bear thing reminds me of—some kids will just feel bad, you know, like feel bad sometimes from, like, a full backpack, or maybe they don’t even know what it is, they can’t connect. Or maybe they’re just tired and low-resourced and their brain is kind of like, “Why do I feel bad? Why do I feel bad?” And she’s like, “Oh, the bear.” You know, she remembers, like, the bear. Like, I’ve had clients tell me, my kid will say, like, “I miss Grandpa,” who they never met, who died before they were born—like, just kind of casting around for, like, “Why could I be feeling this way right now? Oh, I know—it’s ’cause I can’t find that bear.”

Or maybe the bear is so important to her that it really is—that she thinks about it and it just makes her feel bad. But I think what you wanna remember when it seems like she’s wallowing is that, you know, getting—like, having empathy. And I actually also did a podcast about this too, with another coaching call, where I talked about, you know, cultivating a certain amount of nonchalance after you feel like you’ve been pretty empathetic and welcomed the feelings. Because I think if we’re too empathetic sometimes—and I do wanna be very careful with this because I don’t want anyone to take this as, like, “Don’t be empathetic”—but, you know, there is a time where you just say, like, “You know what? I hear how upset you are about this, and I get it. And I would be really bummed if I couldn’t find the bear I wanted also. And we have to decide, like, are we gonna stay here and just keep feeling sad about the bear, or should we figure out another plan?” Like what you said, right.

Joanna: Yeah, I have heard you say that before, and that’s been so helpful for her. Mm-hmm. It seems like if I’m not so reactive to her emotions, she realizes that they’re not an emergency either.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean—and that’s a good point too, because I didn’t even ask you, like, how’s your regulation when this is happening? Like, are you getting, like, annoyed, frustrated, upset for her, kind of drawn in? Are you able to, like, kind of center yourself and stay calm?

Joanna: It varies. I would say I currently am the most resourced that I’ve ever been—good with, like, the emotional regulation piece. And then that—I see, like, sometimes she is able to come out of it more quickly, or it just depends on, you know, what her tolerance is at that—at that time. So—

Sarah: Joanna, it might be that, you know, you’re coming out of—almost like you’re coming out of a fog of, you know—you said all the things: like the NICU experience, and then the—and then COVID, and then your new baby, and—and that it might be that you’re really, finally for the first time, kind of getting to tend—you know, look at yourself, your own regulation, and be more present and connected with your daughter. And all these things are gonna start having a little bit of, um, of a snowball effect. And it may be that you’ve just had this, like, seven-year period of difficulty, you know?

Joanna: Oh, that’s horrifying.

Sarah: Well, but the good news is it sounds like things are shifting.

Joanna: Yeah. It really does feel like that. Yeah. You’re—I feel like even if I talked to you a few months ago, I would’ve been like, “Oh, help me.”

Sarah: Well—and that you’re recognizing what you brought—what you bring to the table, and that, you know, things have been fraught with your daughter, and that you’re sort of starting to come out. And—and honestly, also doing that—doing that bedtime—after-school bedtime by yourself five days a week, that’s gonna be tough too. Uh, so you’ve got situ—just that current situation doesn’t sound like it’ll change, but you’re changing what you’re bringing to it.

Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. Um, if I can maybe just ask you, like, one more little thing?

Sarah: Sure.

Joanna: Maybe this is—it all comes back to, like, wanting a lot of connection, but this is also what kind of drains my battery. She constantly wants to, like, talk to me or ask me questions from, like, the time that she wakes up to the time that she goes to bed. And it will be—like, currently it’s, like, “Would you rather.” It’s like, “Would you rather eat all the food in the world or never eat again?” Uh-huh. In the past it’s been, like, “Guess what’s in my mouth?” But then she always really tries to make it—make me wrong in the circumstance, if that makes sense. Like, I don’t know if that’s just her, like, looking for power or, like, the upper hand, or like—I don’t know. I’m not sure what it is.

Sarah: Well, I mean, if you feel—if you have a sense that she’s looking for power, I would bring that into the roughhousing—where you are the one who’s weak and bumbling and idiotic, and, you know, you’re so slow, and she beats you every time at a race. So I would really try to bring some of that—some of that stuff into your roughhousing where she gets to be—Do you know the kind of stuff I’m talking about? Like, “I bet you can’t—um, you know, I bet you can’t beat me at arm wrestling,” and then, like, you know, you flop your arm over in a silly way, and like, “How are you so strong? Like, I’m gonna beat you next time.” And it’s obviously playful, because probably you are stronger than she is at this point, but, you know—feats of strength or speed, or, you know, figuring things out, and you act like you really don’t know anything. And—but in, of course, in a joking way, so she knows that you’re not—you know, you’re pretending to be all these things, but she still gets to gloat and, like, “Ha, you know, I’m the strongest, I’m the best.” So really giving her that in roughhousing.

And then also, like, real power. Like, I don’t know if she gets to make—what kinds of decisions she gets to make, or, you know, how much—how flexible you are on limits. Because sometimes, as parents, we do set unnecessary limits, which can make our kids, you know—make them look for power in other ways. So really looking at what limits you’re setting and if they’re necessary limits, and—and how you’re setting them. Uh, and also I think it sounds like it’s connection-seeking—like, she just wants you. You know, she wants to know that you’re there and paying attention to her. And so everything else that you’re doing—that we’re talking about—that you’re gonna try to do more—more time with her and get more one-on-one time with her, hopefully that will help too.

And I think it is okay to say, like, after you’ve done, like, 25 “would you rathers,” I just say—like, I used to say to my kids, “You know what? My brain is just feeling really stimulated from so many words. Like, can we have some quiet for a few minutes?” And not—and being very careful to not phrase it like, “You’re talking too much,” or “I don’t wanna listen to—” and I’m exaggerating for effect—but just framing it as, like, your brain and a regulation thing—like, “My brain,” and it is words. Yeah. And so, like, “Do you—should we put some music on?” You know, “Can we—like, think of—can you connect in a way that—let’s listen to a story.” Okay. Something like that where you still, like, keep up connection with her, but—and it might not work. She—she might not be able to stop talking, but you can try it at least.

Joanna: No, that’s a—that’s a really good suggestion. Almost like replacing it with some other kind of stimulation if she’s looking for that in that moment.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I think—I think it’s just—I think it’s fair. Like, it’s totally—I, at the end of the day, with people, like, talking at me all day, I sometimes am like—you know, when my kids were younger, I’d be like, “Okay, you know, I—I just need a little—my brain needs a little bit of a break. It’s feeling overstimulated.” So I think just using that language with her.

Joanna: Okay. Okay. Great. Thank you. Well—

Sarah: Yeah, I think you’re—you know, I think that I’ve—that we’ve connected at a point where you’re, like, at—you’re, like, at the—sort of the top of a mountain, you know? And you’ve been, like, having all this struggle and uphill battles. And I think you’ve put—before even we talk—you’ve put a lot of pieces [together] of what—you know, why some of the challenges were. And they do seem to be connection—you know, connection-based, just in terms of, um, you know, her wanting more and you not being as resourced. And so hopefully working on connection is gonna help with that too.

Joanna: Yeah. I’m gonna keep that at top of mind.

Sarah: And your self-regulation too. You said you’re—you know, you’ve been having—you’re more resourced now than you ever have been, so you’re able to work on really staying, like, calm and compassionate in those times when she’s dysregulated. Going back to what I said in the beginning, which is that, you know, the steps for the meltdowns really start with our own regulation.

Joanna: And I find it’s a snowball effect too, because once you start seeing positive changes, it allows you to, like, rest in knowing that things will not always be so hard.

Sarah: Yeah. So it—

Joanna: It gives you motivation to keep going, I think.

Sarah: Totally. And, you know, with complex kids—which it sounds like your daughter is one of those more complex kids—um, brain maturity makes such a huge difference. Um, like, every month and every year as she’s starting to get older. And, you know, you mentioned ADHD—that you—that you suspect that she might be ADHD. ADHD kids are often around three years behind, um, in terms of what you might expect for them in terms of, like, their brain development. And not—and not across the board. But in terms of, like, their regulation, in terms of what they can do for themselves, um, like in—you know, and obviously every kid is different. But it really helps to think about, um, your ADHD kids as sort of, uh, developmentally younger than they are. My—my girlfriend who has—her son and my daughter are the same age, so they’re both just starting college or university this year. And, um, she was—I—she lives in California, and I was talking to her, and her son has ADHD, and she was talking about how much support he’s still needing in first-year college and how she was feeling a little bit like, “Oh, I feel like I shouldn’t be supporting him this much when he’s 18.” And—and she said, “Actually, I just re—you know, I always remind myself of what you told me a long time ago: to think of him as three years younger than he is in some ways,” and that that’s made her feel a little bit better about the scaffolding that she’s having to give him.

Joanna: Yeah, I’ve never heard that before. That’s good. She’s also gonna be starting to work with an OT in a couple of weeks, so we’ll see if that has any effect as well.

Sarah: Cool.

Joanna: Cool.

Sarah: Alright, well, I look forward to catching up with you in around maybe three weeks or a month and seeing how things went, and, um, good luck, and I hope this was helpful and gave you some things to work on.

Joanna: Okay. Thank you so much.

Sarah: Hi Joanna. Welcome back to the podcast.

Joanna: Hi Sarah.

Sarah: So—how has—it’s been about—I think it’s been about four weeks since we talked the first time. How have things been?

Joanna: Yeah, things I think have been going a little better. Like, every day is a little bit different. We definitely have, like, a lot of ups and downs still, but I think overall we’re just on a better trajectory now. Um, it’s actually—I was wondering if things—if, like, the behavior has actually been better, or if it’s more just, like, my frame of mind.

Sarah: That is the classic question because—it’s so funny, I’m—I’m laughing because so much of the time when I’m coaching parents, after a couple of sessions they’ll say, “This isn’t even about my kids. This is all about me.” Right.

Joanna: Yeah, it really, really is and just continues to be about, like, my own—not just frame of mind, but, like, my own self-regulation. That’s always the biggest thing.

Sarah: Yeah.

Joanna: Um, I think the biggest challenge is, like—ever since, like, about six months ago, I just have had really bad PMS. So I find, like, the week before—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: I just feel so irritated by everything.

Sarah: Yeah.

Joanna: So I feel like that’s a really—just so much more of a challenging time because then things that normally don’t bother me are bothering me a lot more.

Sarah: Right.

Joanna: And then it’s harder to keep that connection strong.

Sarah: Totally. Yeah. And you also—as we mentioned last time—you have come off of a whole bunch of different events of, you know—we talked your daughter’s premature birth, and then COVID, and then the new baby. And the new baby—you know, you’re not sleeping that much, and, um, all of those things would make it also have your resources be low. Like, not only the PMS, but, like, anything that puts a tax on us—on our resources—is gonna make us more irritable.

Joanna: Totally. And—but I’m really trying to lean into having a lot more compassion for myself, because I know that when I do that, I can have a lot more compassion for her and, mm-hmm, whatever’s going on that she’s bringing to the table too. So that’s—that’s, I think, probably the biggest thing. But I think that our relationship is just starting to have a lot more resilience—like, when things do start to go sideways, either she or I—we’re able to kind of get back on track a lot more quickly than before, and it doesn’t become as, like, entrenched.

Sarah: That’s awesome. And we—we talked last time about trying to get some more time with her so that the only time that she has with you isn’t just at bedtime when you’re trying to get her to go to bed. Have you been able to do that, and has it—do you think that’s been helping?

Joanna: Yeah. It depends. Like, we had a really busy weekend this past weekend, so not as much. And then I find that sometimes, like, a barrier to that is, like, by the time the weekend finally comes, I’m so depleted and really just, like, needing time for myself. As much as I’m like, “Okay, I need to spend one-on-one time with her,” I’m like, “I don’t want to—I just, like, be by myself for a little while.” So it’s—

Sarah: I hear that.

Joanna: It’s always that—like, yeah, it’s always that balancing act. And then, like, feeling guilty of, like, “Okay, no, I know I should want to hang out with her,” and I kind of just don’t really.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. No, you’re—you’re totally not alone. And it’s funny that you just—you mentioned self-compassion and then you said, “I feel guilty ’cause I—I don’t wanna hang out with her,” but we all—the theme so far in this five minutes is that, um, you know, what you’re bringing to the—what you’re bringing to the relationship has been improving. Like you said, your mindset has shifted, and that’s helping things with her. So even if you’re not getting time independently with her—and hopefully you can work towards that after you fill your own cup—but you’re still helping things with her by getting time to yourself.

Joanna: True. Yeah, because then I’m coming back just a much better, happier—yes—parent and person.

Sarah: Totally.

Joanna: Oh, thank you. That’s helpful.

Sarah: Yeah, and the—and I think you’ve—you know, you’ve touched—just in these few minutes—you’ve touched on two big things that I always say: if you can’t really take these two things to heart, it’ll be really hard to be a successful peaceful parent. And one is what you said—the mindset shift, you know, of how you see her behavior with, you know, that children are doing the best they can. You know, they’re not giving us a hard time; they’re having a hard time. And the other one is self-compassion. So making strides in both of those areas will really help you be that parent that you wanna be.

Joanna: Yeah. And even though we’re maybe not getting huge chunks of time individually, I am really trying to make the most of, like, those little moments—

Sarah: Good.

Joanna: —of connection. Yeah. So even, like—what we’ve started doing is, because my husband’s on night shift, he is waking up with her in the morning because she has a really hard time in the morning. So now he’s sort of with her, getting her ready in the morning. And then I am—like, we used to all walk to the bus together because my son likes to go too. But now my husband’s hanging back with my son, so now I’m just walking her to the bus. And even though it’s five minutes, it’s like we’re holding hands. She’s able to tell me—

Sarah: Yeah.

Joanna: —you know, talking about whatever.

Sarah: That’s still—that—that totally counts. That’s—and that also, um, that also takes care of something we talked about last time too, which is your husband and your son having more time together, um, so that the nights that—when your husband is home—maybe he can put your son to bed and start trying to shift that dynamic. So yeah. That’s amazing that you’re doing—that. Yeah, I think that’s a great shift—walking to her—to the bus by herself.

Joanna: And I think it—it actually makes a huge difference. You know, before it was like she would just kind of get on the bus and not really look back, and now she’s, like, giving me a hug and a kiss and waving—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: —waving in the window. So, like, I can see that it’s having a positive effect right away.

Sarah: You could even leave five minutes earlier than you have to and have—turn that five minutes into ten minutes.

Joanna: I would love to do that. It’s always just—like, it’s really hard to get to the bus on time as it is. We will work toward that though.

Sarah: I hear that. Well, if you did try to leave five minutes earlier then it might be more relaxed, even if you didn’t even have any extra time, but you were just, like—leave, you know, change your whole morning back five minutes and try to get out five minutes early.

Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. True. So I think that we had talked a lot about roughhousing last time too—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: —and I do find that that’s—that’s really—it works well for her, but I run into this really specific problem where when, uh, like, we start roughhousing, and then she’s enjoying it, but then my son wants to get in the mix—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: —and then right away she’s like, “No, like, get outta here.” So then she’ll start kind of, like, pushing him or, like, throwing kicks or something. So—and then he gets upset because he’s like, “Mom! Mom!” So then I end up sort of, like, pinned underneath both of them—

Sarah: Right.

Joanna: —they’re mad at each other, hitting each other—

Sarah: Oh no.

Joanna: —they both want me.

Sarah: Well, maybe—maybe don’t do it then if that’s how it ends up. But I do have a couple of shifts that might help before you give up on it when you’re alone with them. One is, do you ever try to do those “two against you”? Like, start it out right from the get-go—“You two against Mommy. See if you can—see if you can—” Um, it’s funny you just said you end up pinned down because that’s what I often say. Like, “See if you can stop Mommy from getting up,” or “See if you can catch me,” or, you know, trying to align the two of them against you. That might help.

Joanna: Yeah, I love that idea. Never thought about that. Yeah, I think she would love that.

Sarah: Yeah. So, “Okay, you two are a team, and you have to try to stop me from jumping on the bed,” or “You know, you—you have to stop me from getting to the bed,” or, you know, something like that.

Joanna: Okay, I’m gonna try that. I think that they’ll love it.

Sarah: Yeah. Another idea is, um, what I call “mental roughhousing,” where you’re not doing, like, physical stuff, but you’re being silly and, like, um—I think I mentioned her last time to you, but A Playful Heart Parenting—Mia—W—Walinski. She has a lot of great ideas on her Instagram—we’ll link to that in the show notes—of, like, different, um, like, word things that you can do. When I say mental roughhousing, it’s like getting everyone laughing without being physical.

Joanna: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Uh, which—you know, the goal of roughhousing is to get everyone laughing, and sometimes being physical might not work. But you can—like, I’ll give you an idea. This isn’t from Mia, but this is something that I used to do with my kids. Like, you know, one of you—you’re like—you say to JR, “Oh—where did your sister go?” And she’s sitting right there. “She was just here a minute ago. Where did Jay go? I don’t see her. What happened to her? She disappeared.” And meanwhile she’s like, “I’m right here! I’m right here!” You know—something like that that’s more of, like, a—more of a mental roughhousing.

My kids and I used to play this game that actually my brother-in-law invented called Slam, where, like, you both say a word at the same time. Um, so, like—I’m just looking around my—like, you know, “curtain” and, you know, “lemonade.” Uh, and then it’s like—you both say it—both—you both say your word at the same time. And that actually wasn’t a very funny one—kids come up with much funnier ones than I do—but it’s like, “Is that, like, a lemonade that is made out of curtains, or is it a—what—” It’s such a dumb example now that I think of it, but—but—or is it, like, a curtain that hides the lemonade? And so you just try and—like, you think of silly things that the two words together—the two words “slam” together—mean.

Joanna: Okay, great. That’s—that’s on my next book—that’s on my next thing to read. You—man—you keep mentioning—what is it? Playful—Playful Heart Parenting? She has an—I—

Sarah: There was a book—there was a book too. And—

Joanna: Oh—

Sarah: Playful Parenting—the Larry Cohen book.

Joanna: The Larry Cohen book, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: That’s a great book. Yeah, and he was on my podcast too, so you could listen to that. We’ll also link to—Mia was on my podcast, and Larry was—so we’ll link to both of those in the show notes as well.

Joanna: Okay, great. I may have listened to one of those, but—yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Sarah: And Playful Parenting is really great for also talking—and, like, Mia is just straight up, like, how to be more playful in life and to, you know, make more joy in your family kind of thing. And Larry talks about how to be more playful to also support your child through transitions and through big emotions and different things—like, it’s a—it’s a little bit more, um, like, all-around parenting—Playful Parenting.

Joanna: Okay.

Sarah: But it is different.

Joanna: Yeah. I used to have a really hard time getting the kids upstairs to start the bedtime routine. And now it’s like—I’ll be like, “Okay, I’m gonna hide first,” and, like, I go upstairs and hide and we start—

Sarah: Oh, I love that.

Joanna: —we play hide-and-seek, and—

Sarah: Oh yeah, it was a stroke of genius one day, and it’s been working so well just to get everyone, like, off the main floor and—

Joanna: —upstairs.

Sarah: I’m gonna totally steal that idea. That’s such a good idea. Yeah, because you could also send them up—“Okay, go hide upstairs and I’ll come and find you.” And then you could do a round of you hiding. And I love that. That’s a great idea. Yeah.

Joanna: And I especially love hide-and-seek for sometimes when I need, like, 30 seconds by myself in a dark closet—

Sarah: —to, like, take a breath.

Joanna: That’s great.

Sarah: I love it. I love it. Yeah, it’s—that’s so great.

As I mentioned before, I forgot to ask Joanna for an update about a few things. So here’s the update about breastfeeding her son in the night.

Sarah: Okay.

Joanna: Hi, Sarah. So, in terms of the night-weaning, um, I haven’t gone ahead and done anything about that yet just because he does have his last molars coming in and has been sick. So I want to wait until he’s well and pain-free to kind of give us our best chance at getting that off on the right foot. But I have really realized that because he’s my last baby, that this is really the last little home stretch of being woken up by a baby at night—specifically to nurse. So that’s helped me kind of reduce my feelings of resentment toward it.

Sarah: I love that Joanna zoomed out and looked at the big picture and the fact that this is her last baby, and used that to sort of just change her mindset a little bit and make it a little bit easier to continue on with something when she knew it wasn’t the right time to stop. And now here is her update about bedtime with her daughter. And for this, I love that she got preventive—you’ll see what I mean—and also playful. Those are two really great things to look at when you’re having any struggles with your kids: like, how can I prevent this from happening? And also, how can I be playful when it is happening and shift the mood?

Joanna: And in terms of bedtime with my daughter, we’ve made a couple of schedule changes to set us off on a better foot once I get back together with her after putting my son to bed. So I think we used to have a lot of conflict because it was like she was still asking for another snack and then hadn’t brushed her teeth, and then it was just kind of getting to be too late and I was getting short on patience. So now we have, like, a set snack time where everybody has a snack, and I let them know, like, “This is the last time that we’re eating today,” and then we’re going upstairs—using hide-and-seek, like I mentioned—and then just really continuing to be playful in all doing our bedtime tasks together.

So, for example, I’m saying, like, “Okay, I’m gonna go into my room and put my pajamas on. Can you guys go get your PJs on—and then don’t show me, but I have to guess what pajamas you have on?” So she really loves that because, like I mentioned, she loves to get me to guess things. But also she’s then helping her brother get ready for bed, and he’s far more cooperative with her than with me in terms of getting his pajamas on. So it all works really well.

Yeah, and then just kind of continuing to be silly and playful is really helping with brushing teeth—it’s like, “Who can make the silliest faces in the mirror?” and stuff. So, really kind of moving through all those tasks together so that by the time I’m out of the room and ready to put her to bed, everything’s done, and we can just get into playing cards and then snuggling and chatting and—and leaving from there after maybe a five- or ten-minute snuggle. So there’s been way fewer meltdowns at the end of the night because we are able to just not get in this place where we’re getting into power struggles in the first place. It’s just really all about, like, the love and connection at the end of the day.

Sarah: The final thing I wanted to check in with you about is—you were asking about the meltdowns. You know, when Jay gets really upset and, you know, how to—um—how to manage those. Have you had any chances to practice what we talked about with that?

Joanna: Yeah, she actually had a really, really big, long, extended meltdown yesterday, and, um, I just continue to not really feel like I’m ever supporting her in the way that she needs supporting. Like, I don’t—I always end up feeling like I’m not—I’m not helping. I don’t know. It’s just a really, really hard situation.

Sarah: I was just talking to a client yesterday who—who actually wanted to know about supporting her child through meltdowns, and I said, “Well, what would you want someone to do for you?” You know—just kind of be there. Be quiet. You know, offer a—you know, rub the—rub your back—rub her back. I mean, I don’t know exactly what your child wants, but I think that’s a good place to start if you feel like you’re not being successful—like, “Well, what would I want if this was happening to me?”

Joanna: And I think that really—that’s enough, right? It’s enough—

Sarah: Oh, totally.

Joanna: —to be there. And it always—maybe I’m just feeling like it’s not enough because we don’t really even get, like, a good resolution, or, like, even—eventually it just kind of subsides, right?

Sarah: If you were having a meltdown, that’s what would happen. Nobody can come in there and fix it for you.

Joanna: Um, exactly.

Sarah: Nobody can come in and say the magic words that’s gonna make you not feel upset anymore. So it’s really just about that—being there for somebody. And we’re—it’s not that the resolution is “I fixed their problems.”

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: The resolution is “I was there with them for the journey.”

Joanna: Yeah. And it goes back to what you were saying, where it’s like, “Oh, this work really is just about me.”

Sarah: Yeah, totally.

Joanna: And learning how to show up.

Sarah: And not feeling anxious when your child is upset and you’re like, “I don’t know what to do,” and just think, “Okay, I just have to be here. I just have to be here for them.”

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: And help them, you know, feel not alone in their meltdown.

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: Gosh. It’s also hard.

Joanna: Yeah, it’s hard.

Sarah: And it’s also, like—sometimes I think it’s more simple than we think it is. Like, it’s simple—simple doesn’t mean easy, but it’s—so—it’s not easy, but also can be simple. Like, just, you know—be there. Be there for her.

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: Keep forward and try not to—

Joanna: —get—

Sarah: —try not to have the wave take you over as well.

Joanna: Yeah. That’s always the challenge.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: But no, I’m—I am motivated to stay the course because I’ve already seen how—the positive effects of peaceful parenting, so—

Sarah: Yay. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Joanna: You’re welcome.

Sarah: Keep in touch, and, um, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your experience with other parents. It’s—I always hear from listeners how helpful these coaching episodes are.

Joanna: I’m glad.

Sarah: Yeah. So thank you so much for having me—for sharing.

Joanna: Perfect. Thanks, Joanna.

Sarah: Okay, bye.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I am giving you another sneak peek inside my Peaceful Parenting Membership!

Listen in as I interview Tosha Schore as part of our membership’s monthly theme of “Aggression”. We discuss why kids get aggressive, how to handle it no matter how many kids you have, and dealing with the aggressive behaviour from many angles.

Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!

We talk about:

6:35 Is a child’s aggression OUR fault as the parent?
13:00 Why are some kids aggressive?
15:00 How do you handle aggression when you have multiple kids?
22:00 A new sibling being born is often a trigger for aggression in the older child
29:00 When you feel like you are “walking on eggshells” around your child
35:00 How naming feelings can be a trigger for kids
37:00 When aggression is name calling between siblings
42:00 Friends- roughhousing play or aggression?
49:00 Coming from aggression at all angles
50:35 Using limits when there are safety issues

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Tosha’s Website

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Transcript:

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Tosha Shore, a peaceful parenting expert on aggression. I invited her into the Peaceful Parenting Membership a few months ago to talk to us about aggression and to answer our members’ aggression-specific questions.

So many fantastic questions were asked. I know they’ll help you if you’re at all having any issues with aggression. And remember, aggression isn’t just hitting. It’s any expression of the fight, flight, or freeze response—including yelling, spitting, throwing things, and swearing.

Tosha is such a valuable resource on this issue. I really, really admire how she speaks about aggression and the compassion that she brings to both kids and parents who are experiencing aggression.

One note: one of the members was okay with her question being used in the podcast, but she didn’t want her voice used. So in the podcast today, I paraphrased her question and follow-up comments to preserve the flow of the conversation.

As I mentioned, this is a sneak peek inside the Peaceful Parenting Membership. If you would like to join us, we would love to have you. It is such a wonderful space filled with human touch and support. There are so many benefits, and it’s my favorite part of my work as a parenting coach.

We’ll put the link to join us in the show notes, or you can visit reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership. If you know anyone who could use this podcast, please share it with them. And as always, we would appreciate your five-star ratings and reviews on your favorite podcast app.

Let’s meet Tosha.

Hello, Tosha, welcome to the membership. I’m so excited that you’re going to be here talking to us about aggression today. So maybe you could start out by just giving a brief introduction of who you are and what you do.

Tosha: Absolutely. So my name is Tosha Shore and I am the founder of Parenting Boys Peacefully, where we are on a mission to create a more peaceful world, one sweet boy at a time.

I’m also the co-author of Listen: Five Simple Tools to Meet Your Everyday Parenting Challenges. And I work with a lot of families with young kids who are struggling with hard behaviors like aggression, and my goal is to give you all hope and inspiration—to keep on keeping on with peaceful parenting practices because they do absolutely work. Even, or maybe even especially, for really hard behaviors.

Sarah: I love that you added that—especially for hard behaviors—because I think there’s this fallacy out there that, yeah, peaceful parenting’s nice if you have easy kids, but, you know, my kid needs more “discipline” or whatever. So I love that you called that out, ’cause I think it’s absolutely true also.

So maybe—just—we have some questions from our members that people sent in, and I’m not sure, some people on the call might have questions as well. But maybe we could just get started by you sort of centering us in what causes aggression.

I was just on a call with some clients whose child was having some issues at school, which, if we have time, I might ask you about. The mom was saying, “Oh, you know, he’s being aggressive at school because I sometimes shout or lose my temper.” And I said to her, you know, of course that plays a part in it, but there are lots of kids whose parents never shout or lose their temper who still are aggressive.

So why is that? What causes aggression?

Tosha: I mean, I think there are a few things that can cause aggression. I often will say that aggression is fear in disguise, because I’ve found that a lot of kids who are getting in trouble at school—they’re yelling, they may be hurting siblings or hurting their parents—they are scared inside.

Sometimes it’s an obvious fear to us. Like maybe they’re playing with a peer and the peer does something that feels threatening—goes like that in their face or something—and instead of just, you know, play-fighting back, they clock the kid or whatever.

And sometimes the fears are a little bit more hidden and maybe could fall even into the category of lagging skills. I don’t even like to say “lagging skills,” but, like, skills that maybe they haven’t developed yet. School’s a perfect example. I think a lot of kids often will be acting out in school—even aggressively—because they’re being asked to do something that they don’t yet have the skills to do.

And that’s pretty frustrating, right? It’s frustrating to be asked, and then demanded, to perform in a certain way or accomplish something specific when you don’t either feel the confidence to do it, or you don’t yet have the skills. Which sort of spills into another reason that kids can get aggressive, and that’s shame.

We can feel really ashamed if everybody else in the class, for example, or a lot of kids, are able to just answer the questions straight out when the teacher asks—and maybe we get stage fright, or maybe we didn’t quite understand the example, or whatever it is.

So I definitely want to pull that parent away from blaming themselves. I think we always tend—we have a negative bias, right? Our brain has a negative bias. All of us. And I think we tend to go towards taking it on ourselves: It’s our fault. If we had just done X, Y, or Z, or if we hadn’t done X, Y, or Z, my child wouldn’t be acting out this way.

But I always say to parents, well, that’s a choice. There’s like a 50/50, right? We could choose to say, you know what, it could be that I did something, but I don’t think so. That’s the other 50%. But we always go with the “it’s my fault” 50.

So part of my job, I think, is to encourage parents to lean into the “It’s not my fault.” Not in the sense of nothing I do has an impression on my child, but in the sense of: it’s important that we as parents all acknowledge—and I truly believe this—that we are doing our best all the time.

There is no parent I’ve ever met who purposefully doesn’t behave in a way they feel good about, or purposefully holds back their love, or purposefully yells, or anything like that. If we could do differently, we absolutely would as parents.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. So more like, “I didn’t cause this. There’s maybe something I could do, but I didn’t cause this.” Right.

Tosha: I mean, like, look, let’s just be honest. Maybe she did cause it, okay? I mean, I’ve done things—maybe I’ve caused things—but so what, right? There’s nothing I can do at this point.

I can either sort of wallow in, “Oh gosh, did I cause this?” Or I could say, probably I didn’t, because there are so many other factors. Or I could say, you know, maybe I did, but one, I’m confident that I did the best that I could in that moment.

And two—and this is an important part—is that I am doing whatever work I need. I’m getting the support I need, right? I’m showing up to Sarah’s membership or this call or whatever, to take steps to do better in the future.

So if we’re just making a mistake and not doing anything to try to behave better next time, that’s not worth much either. Like, I remember once when my kids were little—I don’t even remember what I was doing, I don’t remember what the situation was—but I do remember very clearly that I apologized. I said, “I’m sorry, I won’t do that again.”

And my kid goes, “You always say that and then you do it again.”

And that was true. But if that were true because I was just saying “I’m sorry” and going about my next thing and not paying attention to the why or getting to the crux of what was causing me to behave that way, then that would be disingenuous.

But in fact, I was doing my own emotional work to be able to show up more often in ways that I felt good about. So I could genuinely feel good about that apology, and I could not take it personally. I could say, “You know what, you’re absolutely right. I do keep making this mistake. And I want you to know that I am working hard to try to change that behavior.” And that was true.

Sarah: Yeah. Makes sense. So you mentioned before that you want parents to see aggression as fear in disguise. And you mentioned that the fear can be something obvious, like someone’s gotten in your face and you’re scared. Or it can be fear of not being able to meet the expectations of your teacher or your parent. Or shame that can come from maybe even having made a mistake.

You didn’t say this, but I’m thinking of something common that often happens—like a kid makes a mistake or does something they didn’t mean to do, and then they lash out. Right?

So how do we get from those feelings of fear and shame to aggression? Because that doesn’t happen for every kid, right? Some kids will just cry or say something, but then some kids really lash out and hit, throw things, shout, scream. So how does that happen? How do we get from A to B?

Tosha: Well, I think all kids are different, just like all adults are different. And when we encounter fear—any of us—we go into fight, flight, or freeze. And kids who are aggressive go into fight.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Tosha: So some kids do and some kids don’t. And you know, I don’t have any scientific research to back this up, but I would say part of this is DNA, part of this is the nature of the kid.

Sarah: Right.

Tosha: And I think that’s also going back to the self-blame. I’ve got three kids, they’re all very different, right? Same house, same parents, same everything. They’re different. They came into this world different, and they’re still different.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Tosha: And I can help guide them, but I can’t change the core of who they are. So I think that aggression is those kids who go from “I’m scared, I’m having to protect myself” to that attack mode.

Sarah: Right. Makes sense. And just—I mean, I know this—but is it in the child’s control?

Tosha: No, it’s not in the child’s control. It is absolutely a reaction. And I think that’s why I feel like having that concept of aggression being fear in disguise can be so helpful from a mindset perspective for parents. Because it’s so much easier to have empathy for a child who we see as being scared, right? Than one who we see as being a jerk, picking on his brother, or disrespectful, rude—all of those terms we use when we’re struggling.

Sarah: Right. Well, there may be a few other points that I want you to make, but they might come out in the context of some questions from our members.

So I know at least two people on the call right now had sent me a question in case they couldn’t make it. But I’m going to ask Sonya—are you willing, Sonya, to unmute yourself and ask your question?

Sarah: Hi.

Sonia: Sure. Hi.

Sarah: Hi, Sonya.

(Sarah narrating): Sonia wonders how to handle aggression when you have multiple kids. She has three kids—a 7-year-old, a 4-year-old, and a baby—and it’s often her 7-year-old who reacts in fight mode. She’s trying to figure out how to keep her cool and also how to handle it and take care of the other kids and manage him.

Tosha: Yeah. So one thing that I noticed is how Sonia kind of glossed over the keeping her own cool. And I want to bring that to everybody’s attention, because we all do that. But actually, when we’re dealing with aggression, we have to come at it from a lot of different angles.

There’s no one magic pill I can give her, but it has to actually start—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Tosha: So it doesn’t mean we have to reach Nirvana or become the Buddha or never yell before we can make any progress. But we can’t put that aside and just go, “Okay, what do I do to get my kid to stop doing this?”

Because our energy has a huge effect on our kids’ aggression. And usually—well, let me just say—it makes sense to ask yourself questions like: how am I feeling about this? Because most people are feeling scared—either scared of their child (“they’re going to hurt me” or “they’re going to hurt a sibling, hurt the baby”), or scared for their child (“he’s going to end up in juvenile hall, he’s going to end up the next school shooter”).

We project forward. So if we’re having fear for our child or fear of our child, that child is soaking up that feeling. And I don’t know about you, but I’ve never met anybody who could actually change their behaviors—who was inspired, motivated, or able to change their behaviors—when everyone around them was scared of them or scared for them.

Maybe occasionally there’s somebody who’s like, “I’m going to prove the point because the world is against me,” right? And this is like a Hollywood film. But most of us don’t work that way.

So I want to come at it from all the angles. There’s the “take care of yourself” piece. But at the same time, we have to keep our kids safe.

One thing that I think really helps is to pay attention to the pattern of when the aggression is happening, so she’s not surprised. Because if we’re surprised, then we act in surprising ways to ourselves. We don’t show up as our best.

So pay attention. Does this happen at a certain time of day? When there’s a certain constellation of kids playing together? When one particular child is present? When you’re doing something specific? If there’s another parent—when they’re present or absent? Pay attention to these things so that you can show up ready.

Because if you can change your story in your head from, “I have no idea when this happens, it happens all the time, it happens out of the blue”—which is really disempowering—to “I’ve noticed that every afternoon when I pick my 7-year-old up from school and bring him home, then I go in the kitchen to make a snack… and then he lays on top of the baby,” or whatever—then it is much more manageable.

Then you can say, “Okay, well, I remember this call that I was on and they talked about maybe there being some fear in there. Well, I don’t know what the fear is, I don’t know what’s going on, but I’m going to be ready. I’m not going to let it happen.”

So rather than make that snack, I’m going to make it before he comes home, or I’m going to just pull out some frozen pizza. But I’m going to stay present with that child during that time and expect that the upset will happen.

Because then, when that child goes to lay on the baby—or whatever the aggression is—you can actually physically get in the way. You can prevent it from happening. And then what happens is, because that child—the 7-year-old—has something to push against, something preventing them from acting on their fear response, from fighting—what happens then is like a magic reaction.

He’s able to erupt like a volcano and release the tension, those fears, the upsets. Maybe it’s 12 things that happened to him at school today. Maybe there was shame around not knowing the answer when he was called on. Whatever it was.

But there’s suddenly space with an attentive adult who remembers that the child is scared. So they have empathy. They’re not worried, they’re not caught by surprise. So we’re not going to jump at them. And that child has the opportunity then to heal.

That release of the feeling is what heals the child. It’s like pulling up weeds in your garden by the roots, as opposed to just pulling and having them break off, and then the next day you’ve got the whole thing back again.

So this tool—which in our book we talk about as Stay Listening, where we’re staying and allowing space for the child to feel—is what, over time, will change that fight response. That’s actually the gold nugget that, over time, will both change the intensity of the outbursts and also change the frequency.

Is any of that landing for you?

Sarah (narrating): Sonia responded that it was very helpful. She’s told me before that her baby’s almost one, and this started happening a lot right after she had the baby. She also says that she’s done my Transform Your Family Life course, and she’s still working on it. She’s done more of the welcoming feelings, and she has put together that it’s usually in the afternoons—so Tosha is right about that—and it’s happening after school.

She’s also connected that there are things happening at school that aren’t in line with how she and her husband want their child treated, and she thinks that’s related.

Tosha: Yeah. So in light of this new information, I would also say—and I’m sure Sarah’s talked to you about this as well—but pouring in as much connection to that child as possible.

And it can feel, especially when you have multiple kids, that it’s unfair, right? One kid is getting more… Are you familiar with the concept of special times, Sarah? Is that something that you teach?

Sarah: Yeah.

Tosha: Okay. You know, if you’re doing special time—oftentimes we talk about, or I talk about at least—I’m not a “fair” kind of a person. I’m a “life’s not fair” kind of a person. My kids will tell you that.

But when it comes to special time, I always encourage parents to think about a week and to try to give your kids about the same amount of special time over a week. But—and here’s the caveat—when we have a kid who is struggling, they are demanding more of us. They are demanding more attention. And our time didn’t increase.

Tosha: So that means we are going to need to devote more time. It’s going to be uneven. But that child—and especially, like, this is probably the number one reason that I hear for aggression to start, and we didn’t talk about this at the beginning—is when a younger sibling is born. I mean, it is so often the trigger, I can’t tell you.

And if I could go back to all of those parents and say, “Don’t worry about being fair. Just pour as much extra love and connection and yumminess into that child who’s struggling as you can. It will pay off later. You can make it up to the other kids later.” In fact, you’re giving them a gift by helping their older brother, because then his behavior isn’t going to have that negative effect on them.

So I think that we get stuck in the fairness sometimes. I’m not saying you do this, Sonya—this is just from my experience. And then we hold back from giving that child what they need. So special time isn’t the only thing. I would say: make a list of things that you do with that 7-year-old that creates laughter between you, that you both feel really good—where you have that yumminess, like, oh, you’re loving on him and he’s loving on you. Maybe that’s shooting hoops in the front yard, or maybe it’s drawing a picture together, or jumping on the trampoline, or reading a book. I mean, it could be anything at all.

You can do those things, and you can do them with the other three kids around. Also, keep doing all of that stuff. And you’re going to have to, I think, carve out some time for one-on-one special time—named, timed—where he gets to lead and he gets to be the boss.

Sarah: That’s awesome. And we always talk about equity versus equality with the sibling relationships, and I think that’s—

Tosha: Oh yeah. I love that.

Sarah: Okay, awesome. Thank you so much. Priya, do you want me to ask your question, or do you want to ask the question since you’re on the call? Maybe she’s stepped away or can’t unmute herself. Uh, she wants me to ask. Okay. So I’m going to find Priya’s question and ask it.

Uh, Priya says: “My five-year-old gets angry at anything and everything. He has zero tolerance for any kind of dislike or disagreement. We acknowledge his feelings with empathy, doing our best to stay calm and give him time to process his emotions. The only limit we consistently set is holding him from hurting people or property while he yells, screams, says hurtful things, and tries with full rage to attack us.

“We’re consciously making time for roughhousing, special time, connection, laughter, and tears—though he rarely cries—and we talk about asking for help before things escalate. I’ve been trying to track patterns by logging some incidents, but sometimes it feels completely unpredictable. We often have no idea why he’s screaming. If I push a chair slightly, he gets angry. If someone else presses the elevator button, he gets upset. If he has a plan in his mind and we don’t pick up on it, he becomes extremely frustrated. He gets irritated and grumpy very easily. It’s gotten to the point where we feel like we have to expect an outburst at any moment. It looks like it’s becoming a habit for him, and I feel like I’m starting to walk on eggshells—always watchful for what might happen when I say or do something.”

Tosha: Yeah, so this is a really—believe it or not—common situation. Did she say he was five? Is that five?

Sarah: Yeah.

Tosha: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I cannot tell you the number of parents who come to me and this is what they say: “I’m walking on eggshells.” Right? If we get to the point where we’re walking on eggshells, generally what that says to me is that we are not either setting enough limits or we’re not setting limits effectively.

And one thing that I would suggest to Priya is to take a minute to think about whether or not there are places where she’s feeling resentment. That’s always a good sign for me—like, if I’m feeling resentment about something, then that’s probably a place I need to hold a limit. If I’m not, then there’s more wiggle room.

So when this is happening all the time about everything, I would say: get really clear on what limits are important to you and what limits are not. Right? So if you’re in public, in the elevator, and you don’t want to deal with a big meltdown about the elevator button, can you plan for that? If you know that that’s an issue, when you go in, you can say to people, “Hey, my son would really like to press the buttons—what floor would you like?”

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Right.

Tosha: “Here’s our elevator operator—exactly. What floor, please?” Or, if somebody presses the button—or if she’s pressing the button—to just go in knowing, “I’m not going to press the button. I’m going to let my child do this.” And if somebody else has already pressed it, you can say, “You know what? Hey, let’s take the next elevator and then we’ll press it. You can press it.”

So there are places where we can be flexible. But we don’t want to do that all the time, because essentially what this child is showing me is that he has a real intense lack of flexibility. And ultimately, the goal that I would have for him would be—slowly, slowly and lovingly—to help him increase that flexibility. So that, yeah, maybe he’s not going to say, “Oh, shoot, I’m feeling really disappointed because I didn’t get to press the elevator button and I really like to do that.” But maybe instead of having a huge tantrum, he just gets a sourpuss face and crosses his arms. Okay, I’ll take that. That’s better. We’re moving in the right direction.

So it sounds like you’re doing a lot of things right, but I would hone in on limit-setting. Really: are you taking the time to think about what kind of limits you want to set? Are you letting go of limits when you know that you don’t have the wherewithal to stay calm in the face of the upset?

So, oftentimes—I’m hearing Priya say she does a lot of Stay Listening—I would be curious to know: what does that Stay Listening look like? Because I was working with a dad this week, a client of mine, and we were talking about a situation that was going on with his kid, who was coming home really frustrated with homework. And what ended up coming out of his mouth was, “I thought I was Stay Listening, but I think I actually wasn’t Stay Listening.”

Right—because Stay Listening isn’t about trying to calm the child, or trying to get them to stop what they’re doing. It can’t be with the goal of, “Let me get this kid to quiet down,” kind of a thing. Stay Listening is really holding space lovingly for whatever needs to come out, which means—yeah—all the words, all—like, we don’t take them personally.

Sarah: Can I just interject something? For my community, what they would recognize Stay Listening as is “welcoming feelings.” Mm-hmm. Just because that’ll be a familiar phrase to them. So I just wanna—

Tosha: Yeah, absolutely. Right. But “welcoming feelings”—I feel like we need to also talk about: what does that look like? Mm-hmm. What does that look like when we welcome feelings? Because, you know, you could be upset and I could just be like—

Sarah: Yeah.

Tosha: —like waiting for you to be done. Right? I could be like, “Okay, I’m not gonna shut you down, but, you know, hey, whatever you do, what you need to do, I’m gonna go answer my email.” That’s—you know—I can “welcome” the feelings like that. But again, coming back to our energy: what energy are we bringing to that? Are we really staying present with the energy of “We are gonna get through this,” with the energy of “You are safe,” with the energy of “I’m here with you.”

Mm-hmm. Right? Like, can that child sense that they’re not alone—that you’re on their team? And that’s maybe a good litmus test. If you were to ask yourself: do you feel like your child would feel like you’re on their team, or that you’re butting heads? Mm-hmm. And if the answer is “butting heads,” then the question is: what can you shift so that your child will feel like, “Hey, we’re in this together”?

Sarah: Sounds good. Priya, I don’t know if you have anything to add. It sounds like maybe she can’t unmute herself, but—oh, she says he screams really loud, so we usually stay quiet and don’t say anything because it’s really loud. We wait for the moment to pass before we can say anything, at the same time being present. So she’s saying they’re trying to be present, sometimes trying to say, “I see you’re really upset.”

Tosha: Yeah. And so when she says—I’m sorry, it’s a little bit via you here—but before, when you say, “Priya, before I say something,” what is it that you’re saying? Because another thing about Stay Listening—or welcoming feelings, from my perspective—is that saying something actually doesn’t really have a place. So if we need to say something, it should—I think—uh, or let me just rephrase that: I find it most effective when it’s something that essentially allows that child to feel safe, to realize that they’re not alone.

Right—to realize that we’re on their team, and to realize that it’s not gonna last forever. So that they’re loved—these types of things. So I wouldn’t—if you’re naming feelings, and I don’t know that she is or isn’t, but if you’re naming feelings—which is something that a lot of professionals, for example, will recommend—I would play around with stopping that and seeing if that makes a difference, because sometimes that’s a huge trigger for kids. And maybe even, “I see you’re upset,” or whatever it is that she said—that also might be a trigger.

Yeah. Don’t be afraid to really not say anything at all, and just think about each of these things as an experiment. Take a day and don’t say anything at all and see if it makes a difference. Other things to try—’cause it sounds like he’s quite sensitive—is distance, right? How close are you to that child? Some kids don’t want you all up in their face. Some kids want to be on your lap and hugged. Some kids want to be a room’s distance away. So play with distance; play with tone.

Sarah: Love that. Thank you so much, Tosha. Does anybody else who’s on the call have a question? And if not, I have questions that were sent in, but I want to give priority to people who are here. Uh, and—and Priya says, “Thank you, Tosha.”

Tosha: Yeah, my pleasure. I’m trying to work without the direct back and forth.

Sarah: Yeah.

Tosha: No—so I hope that was helpful.

Sarah: Yeah, that was great, Lindsay.

Tosha: And I want to acknowledge that it is really hard. It is hard.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It’s one of the most—

Tosha: It won’t last forever either. Like, it’s absolutely—move through. I can assure you of that.

Sarah: Lindsay, do you have a question?

Member B: Yes. I have a question about my son, actually. He’s 10 years old, and I have a 10-year-old boy and then a 7-year-old girl. And a lot of times—there’s kind of two different questions—but between the siblings, a lot of times my daughter will be, like, have verbal aggression towards him, and then he—he is my—he is a little more sensitive, and he will hold it in, and he won’t spit out things back at her, but then he eventually will just hit her. And, like, he comes with the physical aggression. So kind of, as the parent, proactively trying to step in there—like, how do I handle both of those when one is verbal—maybe aggression—and one is physical? I know it can escalate there. Where do I step in?

Tosha: Yeah. First of all, I just want to appreciate that you can see that there’s a dynamic there. Because oftentimes we get into this place as parents where we’re like, “This person is the aggressor and this person is the victim.” Because oftentimes there is a pattern like that, but it’s—it’s beautiful that you can see this dance that they’re doing.

Member B: Yeah.

Tosha: And so if you see it kind of as a dance, you can interplay around and experiment with interrupting it in different ways. Okay. I would say that, in terms of the verbal aggression, what I have found works best—and again, I was talking to a client yesterday and he was saying to me that this is what works. Mm-hmm. I’m like, “Okay, so let’s do more of that. You came out of your mouth; you said it works when you do it—let’s do more.” And that is being playful in the face of the verbal aggression.

And so it can look like a lot of different things. You could say ahead of time to your daughter something like, “Hey, I’ve noticed that, you know, sometimes these nasty words come out of your mouth towards your brother, and I know you don’t mean them. So I’m gonna—I’m gonna pay attention and just try to help you with that, ’cause I know you don’t want to hurt his feelings.”

Member B: Yeah.

Tosha: And just, you know, outside the moment, just kind of toss that out there. And then in the heat of the moment—I mean, you can just get as goofy as you can think. You could get a paper bag and just pull it over her head, right? Or you could get those indoor snowballs and just start pelting her with snowballs. You could do what we call the “vigorous snuggle,” which we write about in the book, which is something like, “Do you know what happens to little girls who call their brothers, you know, ‘stupid buttheads’” or whatever it is—

Sarah: Uh-huh.

Tosha: —and then you—rather than push away, which is what we tend to want to do—you do something goofy, right? “They get their elbows licked!” And then you’re, like, chasing after her elbow and trying to lick it. What you’re going for is laughter. You’re trying to elicit laughter, because she’s stuck in a hard spot where she can’t feel compassion for him and she can’t feel your love or anybody’s. And so laughter will loosen that up.

So I would say: interrupt the verbal aggression with play.

Member B: Okay.

Tosha: Some of those things will maybe annoy her; some of them will lead to laughter. And then sometimes you’ll do an experiment and it’ll annoy her—mm-hmm—and she’ll explode. And what I want to say about that is—that’s okay. Because, like we talked about with the school incident, it’s an opportunity for her to do that healing and release the tensions and the hurts and the upsets and the gripes and all the stuff that she’s holding in there. So when that happens, if you can welcome those feelings and not try to shut them down or judge her—or what many of us, sort of in the peaceful parenting world, will do is just talk, talk, talk, talk to her about it—if you can let all of that go—

Member B: Yeah.

Tosha: —you’ll see the behaviors lessen. Okay? You know, that would be—I mean, we talked a little bit about the physical stuff before, so I thought for this question I would focus more on the verbal.

Member B: Yeah.

Tosha: But in the sibling dynamic, just kind of rotate who you go to, so they don’t feel like there’s one “bad guy” and one “woe-is-me” sibling.

Member B: Yeah. Right.

Tosha: Because ultimately, our goal as parents is to nurture that sibling relationship. Right. I don’t—I don’t know—like, I just had a birthday. I’m like, “This is my best birthday ever.” And people are like, “Really? How is it your best birthday ever?” I’m like, because, like, a lot of people couldn’t come to my party but all three of my boys were home, and we sang karaoke, and the three of them sang me a song and sang all this. It was like—there is nothing I think we want more than to see our kids loving each other, enjoying each other—mm-hmm—having a strong relationship down the road.

And let me tell you, these kids were at each other. I mean, now they’re 18, 20, and 22. But I have been in your shoes where my mom would call me and be like, “I’m afraid they’re gonna kill each other. I’m worried.” I’d be like, “It’s okay. I got this, Mom. You know, things will change.” Yeah. But we do want to experiment—interrupt the behaviors.

Member B: Yeah, I appreciate the trying different interventions and then also being prepared for her to, like, not enjoy some of them as well. ’Cause I think that happens a lot more than, like, the positive, you know, playful things. Right. So I appreciate that space to, like, let that happen too—and that’s okay.

Tosha: Yeah. It’s—even more than okay. Like, that’s kind of what needs to happen—mm-hmm—in order for her to shift—yeah—in order for her to be able to show up differently. She’s stuck. Just think of her as being stuck.

Member B: Yeah. And maybe it’s not gonna fix that moment, but later on it’ll be less and less, right?

Tosha: Yeah. And it happens much more quickly than we think, oftentimes.

Member B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah. The other quick question—do I have time, Sarah, to ask the second—

Sarah: Sure.

Member B: Okay. The second one is more—it’s my 10-year-old. So recently, like, he was at a playdate. He’s getting to play with a lot more of his friends. They’re all playing football and sports and things, and he’s just a bigger kid—my husband’s 6’5”, so he’s just naturally bigger than a lot of the kids. And he is super playful, but he gets, like, playful aggression. And, like, one of the moms was saying, like, “Oh my—” I’ve seen the dynamic of how all the boys are playing, and I noticed Calvin sometimes gets a little too aggressive. And her son Luke is pretty small. And Luke is like, “Yeah, I get trampled sometimes.” And so the mom was like, “I just try and tell Calvin, like, how big he is and, you know, his awareness.” But I know it happens with his sister, and I think it probably happens at school sometimes too—that he doesn’t realize his size, and that maybe it comes out to be as, like—I don’t know if he has internal aggression or if it’s just playful and he’s not aware of how big he is.

Tosha: Yeah, I mean, I’d say two things about this. One is: I always have to ask the question in these situations—Is it the kids who are having the problem, or is it the parents who are having a problem?

Member B: Yeah.

Tosha: And I don’t know the answer in this situation, but oftentimes our kids play a lot rougher than we feel comfortable with—but they’re all actually having a good time. Yeah. I mean, the way that you said that kid reported didn’t sound like it was a problem. I could be wrong and it could be a problem, but I think it’s worth asking: whether or not it’s a problem—Is that mom worried, or is the kid not having fun?

Member B: Yeah.

Tosha: So just to keep that in mind. Because there’s often a par between what we are feeling comfortable with and the way our kids are going at each other. Right. And I think in that situation, we do want to stay close if we’re not sure. And just ask—like, if you notice that energy going up—just say, “Hey, are you all having fun?” If everyone says yes—okay. If one person says no, then we know we need to intervene. Okay. So that’s one piece.

And then I think it’s about body awareness for him. Mm-hmm. And maybe one thing that you could do at home would be some practice—sort of—physical wrestling matches or something of the sort, where you could just pretend like you’re in a ring—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Tosha: —with a timer, and do, like, 15-second, 30-second sessions—or whatever you call it. I’m not a boxing person or whatever, but I don’t—

Sarah: Rounds.

Tosha: Rounds. Maybe it’s rounds, right? Yeah. So where somebody’s actually the ref and saying, “Okay, go at it,” and then when the whistle blows—when the ref blows the whistle—everyone has to run back to their corners. And so we’re increasing the awareness of stop-start, stop-start.

And then also I think it’s oftentimes a good idea to have kind of a—what do you call it—an emergency word, secret word, whatever it’s called—

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Tosha: —the word—

Sarah: Safe word.

Tosha: What’s the word? Safe word. Safe word.

Sarah: Safe word.

Tosha: Yeah. Safe word. And so you all could figure that out at the beginning of this game. And, in fact, that’s something that he could transfer over to his play with his friends. Like, “Yeah, once he learns—he’s like, ‘I know I’m big; I’m just having a good time. I know I don’t want to hurt you, but if things are getting too rough, say banana and I’ll know I gotta pull back.’”

Yeah. But “banana” is going to work a lot better than, “Hey, stop doing that,” or a parent coming in and saying, “Hey, be careful, you need to be careful, you’re a lot bigger than him, you need to pull back.” That’s not going to work as well. But you have to practice those things at home. So—come at it from two different angles.

Member B: Yeah. I like how that is—he and his sister have a thing where if they’re being too much, they yell “T.” Yeah. Okay. And so if they’re like “T, T,” then they know like, oh, that’s a timeout—like, I need to pause for a second.

Sarah: Perfect.

Member B: So yeah, maybe just—yeah—telling him, like, set it up with your friends so they can say it.

Tosha: Yeah. If he already has that skill with his sister, that’s amazing. Mm-hmm. And then, yeah—could we just transfer it over to a friend?

Member B: Yeah, and I agree—it could be a little more parent than kid, because the kid’s inviting Calvin over all the time and wants him to come back. So I’m like, I think they’re having fun. You know, and it just may be the parent’s perception of—or protection of—her child.

Tosha: Right. And I think it’s—I think it’s fair to just ask.

Member B: Mm-hmm.

Tosha: You know, ask the child. I mean, you can ask the child if the child’s at your house. Yeah. You can just say, like, “Hey, you know, if you guys need me, I’m in the other room,” or whatever. Like, you don’t have to— I just—I don’t like to assume that there’s a problem.

Member B: Mm-hmm. Yeah, because he’s—he—it’s very sweet. I just think he—he just plays rough sometimes and—

Tosha: Yeah. Well, some kids like to play rough. And the other thing is, if we interrupt too much, we’re interrupting the development of important emotional intelligence. Because one of the ways that kids learn—or build—emotional intelligence is through playing with one another. Right? If they play too rough, they’re going to lose their playmate. Right. If they don’t play rough enough, they’re also going to lose their playmate. Right. This kid might like to play rough. I mean, this little kid might like to play rough—mm-hmm—because he doesn’t have that opportunity with other kids. And, like, it’s an opportunity to sort of be bigger and use strength and feel—I mean, I don’t know.

Sarah: Yeah.

Tosha: But there’s something about the dance that they do when they play. I remember reading research about this in the animal kingdom. It was like a—it was a—I forget what his name was. This was like a million years ago at a conference when I was—back when I was a linguist—who was talking about this. And it was super, super interesting. I thought, “Wow, okay.” And so I think we need to let our kids also do that dance and just be present—so if there is a problem, we can step in—let them know that we’re there. But don’t assume there’s a problem when nobody’s complaining.

Member B: Right. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, Lindsay. That’s helpful.

Sarah: So I’m conscious that we only have about, uh, eight minutes left with you. And I don’t think anyone else on the call has a question, so I will go to a question that was sent in. And actually two questions that were sent in, and I’m not sure how different they are, so I’m going to tell you both of them.

Okay. And if you can answer them both together, or if you think they’re separate—if that works. Okay. So one of them is a person, a member who has a child—a girl—who is just about to turn eight. And when she gets upset, she hits and throws things at her mom. And they haven’t been able to—and she’s been following peaceful parenting—but still hasn’t been able to curb this. She doesn’t have any issues anywhere else, except for—

Tosha: Okay.

Sarah: —her mom. The second person has a 12-year-old daughter that is hitting, kicking, pinching, saying mean words, etc., to her younger siblings when they’re not doing what she wants them to do. She’s the oldest of five; has younger siblings who are 10, 8, 4, and 2. And she didn’t mention this, but I know she also—when she gets upset—she will do that to her mom too.

Tosha: Yeah. Yeah. So for me, these are really both limit-setting issues, right? Like I’ve said earlier, we have to come at aggression from all the different angles, right? So we talked—we started out at the beginning with the first question about, like, hey, let’s—we gotta focus in on our own healing and our own triggers, and make sure that we’re not sort of trying to skate over that and pretend that we’re gonna be able to be better without addressing anything.

We also have to focus on connection. Like—somebody said they’re tracking. Yeah, we need to pay attention—like, when does this stuff happen? We need to pour in connection, like we talked about. Make a list of all the things that are yummy when you do them together—just do more, do more, do more. Use play in the ways that we’ve talked about.

But limits aren’t necessarily the place to start—but if there are safety issues, then we have to go right there. So if the problem—well, there are lots of problems—but one thing that I’ve seen is that if we let a child, quote-unquote, succeed—or if a child succeeds in hurting us—let’s just say throwing—like, let’s say we get a stapler thrown at us and we end up with a black eye, or a cut on our face, or whatever it is—that child feels more fear than they felt before. Because there’s a huge amount of fear associated with having that much power when you’re so small, and feeling like the adults in your life can’t keep everybody safe.

Right? Because our number one job, in my opinion, is to keep everybody safe and alive. Let’s just start there. Mm-hmm. So this is just basic. So that means that in a situation like this, you’re gonna want to pay attention. You’re gonna really want to track when this happens. It’s good—it only happens with you, I think. That’s telling in the sense that she feels safe enough with you to be able to show you that she’s kind of holding things together out in the world, but actually feeling yucky inside, and these feelings need to come out somehow.

And the next step is you figuring out: well, how do I want to show her that, yes, I can keep her safe? And that is likely gonna look like you physically anticipating—for her throwing something—or you see that she reaches for the stapler, and you’re gonna rush in and you’re gonna put your hand on her hand on that stapler: “I don’t want that stapler to get thrown.”

And I’m not gonna lie—it’s gonna look messy, and it’s gonna be a struggle, and all of the things. That’s fine—as long as you’re calm. If you feel triggered by the throwing, and you don’t feel like you can stay calm, and you can feel like—to talk about, you know, the sweet child underneath the yucky feeling. So let’s—got the throwing or the hitting or the cussing out or the whatever up here, and there’s just always this sweet child underneath.

If you lose sight of that child, then in a situation like this, I would rather you walked out of the room and the—you know—the stapler hit the door. You know, it breaks the window or it dents the door or whatever it is. I don’t want that to happen, but I would rather that happen than it hit you and then you hit her, or you held her harder than you want, or you screamed horrible things at her that you wished afterwards you could take back.

Right. And I say these things not because I think you’re doing this, but just because in my 20 years of working in this world and raising three kids—I know what those feelings feel like, and they’re real, and they happen to all of us. So if you feel out of control, remove yourself.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Tosha: Even at the cost of the window. But—which is why we have to start with our own—getting ourselves in what I call “good enough emotional shape.” Because ultimately, you need to be able to move in, put your hand on that hand with the stapler, and just say something like, “I can’t—I can’t let you throw that, sweet girl. I can’t let you throw that.” And that’s it.

And then she’s gonna have a huge upset. She’s gonna fight, and she’s gonna try and—“Let go of me,” and “I can’t breathe,” and whatever. And unless she breathes through her hand—like, she’s breathing okay, right? But that upset, again, is the gold nugget. Like—then you welcome the feelings and you allow them to pour out. Because something happened. Something is going on. And it might not be that one thing happened during that day at school, or wherever, but it might be that there was a little nick and a little nick and a little nick. And every time—whatever—she didn’t get what she wanted, or a sibling got something and she didn’t, or you answered a sibling before you answered her, or whatever it is—they’re just all little things.

They happen. They’re not your fault or anybody’s fault. It’s just that if, every time they happen, she doesn’t release the yucky feelings that arise in her as a result, then what’s happening is they’re building up. And so I like to think of it as the sand—or the sedimentary rock—on the beach. You can see those striations in it, right? So it’s like—sand is really soft; you can kind of brush it off, but when it sits and it hardens, then you have to take, like, a chisel to it.

Sarah: Yeah. For our people, we call that “getting a full emotional backpack,” when you’re talking about the nicks that build up over time. So that’ll resonate for people.

Tosha: Exactly. Exactly.

Sarah: Thank you so much, Tosha.

Tosha: Yeah.

Sarah: I hope—that was—

Tosha: Helpful. But you have to physically get in there.

Sarah: Yeah, physically get in there. And if it happens too fast to catch the first one, you just kind of do your best and try for the second one.

Tosha: Yes.

Sarah: Yeah.

Tosha: Yes. And then you expect the upset, and you stay with it if you can.

Sarah: Yeah.

Tosha: Remembering that that’s just a scared little girl in there.

Sarah: Yeah.

Tosha: Right. You don’t know what this is about. Just trust that her body knows that it needs to do this healing, and she’s picked you because she knows you can handle it—that you won’t lose sight of her goodness, that your love is strong. And that’s an honor. I know it feels hard, but it’s actually a real honor when we’re the one who gets chosen for that emotional work.

Sarah: I love that, and I want to highlight that a lot of what you talked about today was our own inner work on keeping ourselves calm and keeping our mindset of keeping track of that sweet child—as you say, the sweet child inside that’s just afraid and needs us in those moments. ’Cause it can feel—I think a lot of parents can feel—like, quote, victimized, and that’s probably going to get them deeper into the aggression than get them out of it.

Tosha: Exactly. Exactly. And so we want to feel—I hope that after this call you feel empowered. I mean, I hope there’s just one thing that you can take away and experiment with doing differently. Just think of these things as experiments. You don’t have to get it perfect—right? Whatever the word is that you have in your head. Right. Just try something.

Sarah: Just—

Tosha: Pick one idea that you heard and try it. Try it for a day. See how it goes. And remember that if it leads to big upset on the part of your child, that doesn’t mean you did it wrong. It probably means you’re actually doing something right.

Sarah: That’s so key. I love that. Thank you so much, Tosha. We really appreciate you and your work, and everyone, be sure to let us know how it goes for you when you try some of these things. Let us know in the Facebook group. And thank you, Tosha—thanks for getting up early and meeting with us today.

Tosha: Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you for inviting me back, Sarah.

Sarah: Thanks, everyone.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

Feeling a little off track lately?You’re not failing. You just need a reset.

If you’ve been losing your patience more than you’d like, or wondering why peaceful parenting feels so hard right now? I get it.

That’s why I created the 5-Day Peaceful Parenting Reset.

✨ One simple tool a day ✨ 5 days of small, doable shifts ✨ Free live coaching Zoom calls with me each day

By the end of the week, in a few minutes a day, you’ll feel calmer, more connected, and more confident — and it won’t take hours you don’t have.

We start Monday, October 20.It’s free to join: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/parentingreset 🌿

Join us for The Parenting Reset so you can get on track for more joy and less struggle.

You CAN be more joyful, relaxed and confident- we’ll show you how.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I am giving you another sneak peek inside my Peaceful Parenting Membership!

Listen in as I interview Rachel Simmons as part of our membership’s monthly theme of “Friendship Troubles”. Rachel is an expert on relational aggression, AKA mean girls. We discuss how to intervene in this behaviour when kids are young, how to prevent our child from doing this, and how we can support our children when they’re experiencing it.

Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!

We talk about:

6:27 What is relational aggression?
8:50 Both boys and girls engage in this type of aggression
10:45 How do we intervene with young kids
14:00 How do we teach our kids to communicate more effectively
22:30 How to help our children who are dealing with relational aggression
33:50 Can you reach out to the aggressive child’s parents?
38:00 How to reach out to the school
47:30 How to help our kids make new friends after relational aggression

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Rachel’s website

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Rachel interview transcript

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s episode is another sneak peek inside my membership, where I interviewed Rachel Simmons — an expert on relational aggression, AKA “mean girls.” She wrote a book called Odd Girl Out, which is all about the topic of relational aggression and how we can support our children when they’re experiencing it — and what to do if our child is actually doing that to other people.

If you don’t know what relational aggression is, don’t worry — listen up, because she goes into the definition of it. This was a great conversation. My members had questions, I had questions, and in the end, we all agreed it was a very helpful discussion. I think you’ll find it helpful as well — no matter how old your child is or whether or not they’ve experienced any relational aggression.

This is something we should all be aware of, and as parents, we actually have a lot of control over preventing our child from becoming someone who uses relational aggression.

As I said, this is a sneak peek inside my membership, where we have a theme every month. This month’s theme was “Friendship Troubles,” and it actually came as a request from one of our members. So we brought in Rachel to talk to us about relational aggression, which this member’s child had been struggling with.

Every month in the membership, we have a theme — I do some teaching about it, and we also bring in a guest expert for teaching and Q&A.

If you’d like to join us inside the membership, you can go to reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership to learn more and join us.

Another thing we do inside the membership is office hours. You may have heard a recent podcast that gave a sneak peek into what those are like. We do office hours twice a week where you’re welcome to drop in, ask a question, get support, or share a win — from me, Corey, and other members. It’s just a wonderful place.

Our membership is my favorite corner of the internet, and we’ve been doing it for six years. It really is a special place. I’d love for you to join us! Please let me know if you have any questions, or just head over to reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership to learn more.

And now — let’s hear from Rachel.

Hey Rachel, welcome to the podcast.

Rachel: Thank you.

Sarah: Can you just tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Rachel: Sure. Well, I’m based in Western Massachusetts, and I’m a researcher and author. Over the last eight years, I’ve also become an executive coach. I’ve always been fascinated by — and inspired by — the psychology of girls and women.

Over what’s now become a long career, I’ve worked with women and girls across the lifespan — beginning, I’d say, in elementary school, and more recently working with adult women.

I’ve always been animated by questions about how women and girls experience certain phenomena and spaces differently, and how paying attention to those experiences can contribute to their overall wellness and potential.

Sarah: Nice. And I just finished reading your book Odd Girl Out, and I could see how much research went into it. I think you mentioned you interviewed people for a few years to write that book.

Rachel: It was a long time, yeah. I was just actually reflecting on that. I came across a shoebox filled with cassette tapes — little cassette tapes of the interviews I did when I wrote that book, which came out 20 years ago.

I worked all over the United States and tried to speak to as many girls as I could.

Sarah: It’s a great book — highly recommended. We’ll put a link to it in the show notes. Thank you for writing it.

So today we invited you here because we want to talk about relational aggression. Can you give us a definition of what relational aggression is?

Rachel: Yes. Relational aggression is a psychological form of aggression — a way that people express themselves when they’re trying to get a need met or are upset about something. It usually starts as early as two or three years old, when kids become verbal, and it’s the use of relationship as a weapon.

It can start off as something like the silent treatment — “I’m going to turn away from you because I’m upset with you” — cutting someone off as a way of communicating unhappiness. That silence becomes the message.

I remember once interviewing a seventh-grade girl who told me she gave people the silent treatment — that she’d stop talking to them as a way to get what she wanted. That was really unusual, because most girls won’t come up and be like, “Yeah, here are all the ways I’m mean.”

In fact, it’s often the secrecy that makes this stuff hard to talk about. So I was like, wow, here’s a unicorn telling me she’s doing it. And I asked, “Why do you do it?” And she said, “Because with my silence, I let my friends know what’s going to happen if they don’t do what I want.”

A very powerful description of relational aggression.

So that’s the silent treatment, but it can also take more verbal forms. Like, “If you don’t give me that toy, I won’t be your friend anymore.” Or, “If you don’t play with me at recess today, then our friendship is over.”

The threat is always that I’ll take away a relationship. And it’s so powerful because — what do we want more than connection? That’s a profound human need. So it’s a very, very powerful form of aggression.

Sarah: Your book is called Odd Girl Out, and you focused on women and girls. Do you think this also happens with boys? Has it started happening more with boys? What’s your take — is it still mainly a girl thing? I mean, when I think of relational aggression, I think of “mean girls,” right?

Rachel: Yes, I think a lot of people do — and certainly did when I first started researching this book many years ago. I did too.

It’s important to remember that yes, boys definitely do this, and they do it as much as girls starting in middle school — at least according to the research I read. I haven’t read the very recent studies, so that could have changed, but back when I was doing this work, no one was writing about boys doing it.

There was almost no research, and frankly, because of my own experience — seeing boys being more direct and girls being indirect — I assumed it was just a girl thing. But it most definitely is not.

I think I and others, in many ways, did a disservice to boys by not studying them. I wish I had. It’s something that’s much more widely understood now by people out in the field doing this work.

Sarah: Yeah, interesting — because my oldest son, who’s now 24, definitely experienced a lot of relational aggression in elementary school. And my daughter did too.

And just as a side note — it’s so painful to watch your kids go through that. I want to ask you more about parents’ roles, but it’s so painful as a parent to watch your child have their friends be mean to them.

You mentioned it can start as young as two or three, and I remember reading in your book — that sort of “you can’t come to my birthday party” thing. Even little kids will say that to their parents sometimes, right? Using that relational aggression.

You said that if we don’t actively get involved, it can turn into older-kid relational aggression that never goes away. What do you suggest parents do or say when they hear this kind of thing — whether it’s to other kids on the playground, to a sibling, or even to the parents themselves?

Rachel: Yeah, with little kids — we’re talking about little, little ones — I often answer that question with a question back to the parent: What do you do when your kid hits or bites somebody?

Usually what most of us do is stop the behavior, make sure the other kid’s okay, and then turn to our own child and say, “You can’t do that. We don’t do that in our family. That’s not what we say, that’s not what we do. You have to use your words.”

And we say, “We don’t ever threaten people when we’re angry.” It’s okay to be mad — that’s really key — but it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. Certain ways of speaking are off-limits, just like certain words are off-limits.

It’s also key, though, to practice self-awareness as a parent. Because if you’re the kind of person who goes quiet when you’re upset, or withdraws as a way of expressing yourself, that’s probably where your kid’s picking it up. They’re not unaware of that.

It’s kind of like when parents tell teens, “Hey, get off your phone,” and the teen says, “You’re on your phone all the time.” Modeling is key.

Sarah: That makes a lot of sense — treating relational aggression like any other form of aggression, giving alternatives, correcting the behavior.

Rachel: Exactly — and helping them cultivate empathy. Ask, “How do you think that other person felt when you said that? How do you think it feels when someone says they won’t be your friend anymore?”

You don’t want to lose friends just because you made a mistake.

Unfortunately, so many people believe this is just “kids being kids.” When you hear that phrase, it’s almost a way of disqualifying or invalidating the behavior as aggression. We have to be really careful not to trivialize it or write it off. That’s the gateway to not taking it seriously and not holding kids accountable.

Sarah: One of the things you talk about in your book — which I thought was really great food for thought — is how this often happens with girls because girls are socialized not to express their anger and to be “nice” and “good.” So it goes underground and comes out in these covert, or even not-so-covert, forms of relational aggression.

What can we do as parents to change this? Any concrete ways to help girls express themselves or communicate more effectively so that this doesn’t happen?

Rachel: That’s a really good question. I think one approach I value — both as a parent and in my work — is taking a more integrated approach to parenting, not just saying something in the moment.

If we want kids — and we don’t even have to say “girls,” just kids — to be more emotionally expressive and authentic so they don’t resort to indirect or harmful behaviors, then they need to be raised with certain principles.

Those principles have to be voiced, reinforced, and practiced throughout daily life — not just in response to an acute moment of aggression.

Some of those principles are: It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. All feelings are welcome, but not all behaviors are. You have the right to be treated with respect and dignity by your friends, and you owe that to them as well.

And not even just your friends — everyone. You don’t have to be friends with everyone, but you do have to treat everyone with respect.

That’s key for girls, in particular, because they’re often expected to be friends with everyone, which makes them feel resentful. So another principle is: You don’t have to be friends with everyone. You can be acquaintances and still treat people respectfully.

You’re striking a balance between supporting expression — it’s good to say how you feel — and being thoughtful about how you do it.

It’s also a practice. Sometimes we’ll make mistakes or feel awkward expressing ourselves, but that’s far better than going behind someone’s back or ignoring them forever.

Sarah: Right. I’m reminded of a line we often use in peaceful parenting when one sibling is being “mean” to another verbally. We’ll say, “You can tell your sibling how you feel without attacking them,” or, “You can tell your sibling how you feel without using unkind words.”

That’s really what you’re saying — it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it.

So as I was reading your book, I realized that many of the things we teach in peaceful parenting already help kids express themselves in healthy ways — and also not put up with being treated poorly.

If you learn at home that you don’t have power or agency because your parents don’t treat you with respect, then you’re more susceptible to peers treating you poorly.

Rachel: Yeah, I think so. Parents teach us what to expect from other people. They also teach us how to respond in difficult moments.

If they normalize difficult moments and your day-to-day life includes not feeling valued or safe, you’ll import that into your relationships with others.

It can be more subtle too — if you don’t feel unconditionally valued, or if you have to fight for your parents’ attention, or you don’t feel consistent attachment, you might become vulnerable to pursuing peers who recreate that familiar but painful dynamic.

If your “happy place” becomes constantly trying to get the popular girl to win you over, that might mirror how you once tried to win your parents’ attention.

Sarah: If your child is the victim of relational aggression — what should you do? Both in terms of how to support your child and whether there’s anything you should do with other parents or the school?

Rachel: Great questions. First, how to support your child when they go through something like this — and you’re absolutely right, it can be really triggering for us as parents.

Empathy really matters. And I know some people are like, “Yeah, duh, empathy.” But in my work — and in my life as a parent — I’ve found that we’re wired to help and fix, not to empathize. That’s how humans have survived — by fixing and protecting, not empathizing.

So our instinct when we see our child in distress is to jump in and try to fix it.

Sarah: It’s called the “righting instinct,” I think.

Rachel: The righting instinct — oh! Like to put them upright again?

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: Oh, that’s helpful — I didn’t know that! Yes, the righting instinct.

So we have to override that and remember that what a child really needs is to know that what they’re going through is normal — even if it’s incredibly hard — and that their feelings are normal. They need to know they’re not alone.

Say things like, “You must feel really hurt,” or “That sounds so hard.”

Now, some kids will say, “No, I’m fine.” Not every kid will respond with, “Thanks for empathizing, Mom.” But you can still name the feeling — “If I were you, I’d feel the same way,” or, “That’s really hard.”

The feelings are scary, and kids want to know it’s okay to feel how they feel — that they’re not alone, and that it’s normal.

After that, try to override the fixing instinct as much as you can. Because unless your child is in acute distress, these are opportunities for them to develop problem-solving skills.

They will experience social aggression — that’s inevitable. If they don’t, they’re probably not connected to other people. So it’s not a question of if, it’s when.

These moments are opportunities for you to be with them and support them — but not to do it for them.

Ask, “Okay, this is going on — tell me one way you could respond. What’s something you could do?”

What we’re doing by asking that is not jumping in with, “Here’s what I’d do,” which doesn’t teach them anything. We’re giving them a chance to think.

A lot of kids will say, “I don’t know,” or get annoyed — that’s fine. You can say, “Okay, what’s one thing you could do?”

If they say, “Nothing,” you can say, “Nothing is a choice. That’s a strategy. What do you think will happen if you do nothing?”

We live in a culture that’s consistently deprived kids of opportunities to become resilient — deprived them of discomfort, and that’s cost them problem-solving ability.

I’m not saying kids should handle social aggression alone, but these moments are a chance to hold them and be with them — without doing it for them.

So those are kind of the first two steps.

Sarah: Well, I mean, I think empathize and empath—one thing that I read in your book is that sometimes parents dismiss that it’s really happening, or because of their own fears of their child. Wanting their child to fit in, they might try to encourage them to stay in the relationship or to try to fix the relationship. Maybe you could speak to that a little bit.

Rachel: Sure. Well, I think these kinds of moments can be incredibly disorienting for parents and triggering. And I use the word disorienting because we start to lose—we stop losing—the ability to differentiate between our feelings and experiences and our kids’.

So, for example, if we have a lot of emotion and a lack of resolution around what happened to us, when our kids go through it, all those feelings come right back up. And then we may start to assume that our kids are actually suffering more than they are.

Like, I’ll give you an example of a kid I met and her parent. The kid had been not treated well in middle school and she said, “I just want to sit at a different table.” And her mom was like, “But this is terrible! This is a terrible thing. We have to do something about it.” And her kid was like, “I just want to sit at a different table.”

So remaining aware of any delta between how your child is reacting and how you are is very key. And if you sense that difference, then you really need to conform to where your kid is and not insert or enforce your own emotions on them.

I also think it runs the other direction. To your point, Sarah, if you yourself fear—if you remember being really afraid of what happened when you felt alone—and you start to imagine that if your child were to make a move that would put them in more isolation, that would be bad for them because it was bad for you. Again, that’s a flag.

Anytime you find that you’re sort of flooding your parenting with the memories or the experiences that you had long before you were a parent—if you have the ability to differentiate—that’s really where you learn how to do it differently. But becoming aware of that is most important.

Sarah: That makes a lot of sense. And then I love how you’re talking about inviting problem-solving—you know, “What do you want to do?” Because often we come in with this, “Well, this is what you do. You march back in there on Monday and you say this.”

But as you said, that doesn’t allow them to develop any skills.

And, you know, where’s the spot—where’s the space—for encouraging? Because I know that my daughter, I went through this with her, with some mean girls in our community and at her school. And I just wanted to say, “Just make friends with different kids! Why do you keep trying to be friends with these same kids that are not being nice to you?”

Like, where’s the space for that? And what do you do?

And that actually is a question that one of our members sent in: what should we do, if anything, if our child still wants to be friends with the kids that haven’t been kind to them or who have been relationally aggressive?

Rachel: Yeah, it’s such a great question, and it’s one that many, many parents hold. Because it is certainly a phenomenon where, you know, you keep going back to the person who has hurt you.

And girls can be very inconsistent or all over the place—like, one day we’re really good friends, the next day you don’t want to sit with me at lunch, three days later you invite me to your house for a sleepover, right? You kick me out, you take me back in.

There comes a point in a kid’s life where they’re old enough to make their own decisions. They’re going to school, they’re going to hang out with whoever they want. And I’m most interested in supporting the parents who actually can’t control who their kid hangs out with.

Because if it were as easy as just saying, “Well, you can’t go over to their house anymore,” that would be fine. But it’s not—because the kid’s going to make their own social choices when they’re out and about.

So I think the answer is that relationships are a classroom. Relationships are a place where we learn all kinds of life skills—including how to say what we want, how to compromise, how to forgive, and how to end a relationship.

I think that while it is incredibly frustrating and stressful for a parent to watch their child return to an aggressor, trying to remain as much of a guide as you can to your child, rather than bringing down the hammer, is key.

So, in other words, one strategy I’ve suggested—which is not maybe for everyone—but it’s kind of like: think about a friend you’ve had in your life as an adult who keeps going back to somebody who isn’t good to them. Maybe you remember—they were in a relationship with a crappy person—and you’re like, “What are you doing with that person? Why are you dating them?”

And you probably weren’t yelling at them or saying, “You better stop dating them or I’m not going to be your friend anymore.” You had to stick with them as they figured it out, and you knew they were learning and you hoped they would learn.

There’s a bit of that with your kid. Your kid is not your friend—your kid is much more triggering than your friend—but they’re actually in a very similar learning experience to your friend who’s dating somebody that everyone knows isn’t right for them.

And so as a parent, you want to stay connected and say, “Okay, so what’s your takeaway from what just happened? What are you learning about this person—how they’re treating you?” And you’re going to say it a hundred times before maybe some neuron fires next week or next year, and they’re like, “Oh, I get it.”

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: Like, they need to keep hearing from you. They need to keep hearing that this isn’t a good person—that this person’s not good to you, that this person doesn’t have the values our friends have.

Sarah: That happened with my daughter—with a best friend from birth, too. I think it was around age eight when things started shifting, and the girl started being pretty mean to my daughter.

And it took her four years until she finally made the decision on her own. One thing happened, and it finally cracked it open for her, and she just said, “I don’t think [name] and I are best friends anymore.”

She cried for about three hours, and she went through maybe a month or two of grieving that friendship. But that was kind of like—it had been the straw that broke the camel’s back, where she finally saw everything in the true light. You know what I mean?

But it was so hard for those four years to watch her keep going back and trying and giving her the benefit of the doubt. Anyhow, it was rough.

Rachel: It was rough. And what do you think she learned from that?

Sarah: Well, I think she learned to look other places for friends. And I think she learned how she wanted to be treated.

So we’ve talked about how to support your child who’s going through this. Is there anything you recommend doing with the other child’s parents or with the school to support your child?

Rachel: Yeah. I mean, I think it depends on their age, right?

Sarah: Let’s say tweens.

Rachel: Okay. I think it depends. So first, with the other parents—it’s important to remember that if you call another kid’s parents without clearing it with your own kid first, you just never know what those other parents are going to disclose to their own child.

If you don’t know these parents well, you have no idea whether they’d go to their kid and say, “Guess who called me today?” So, as much as possible, have some communication with your own child about reaching out to another parent, especially if you don’t know that parent or have a prior relationship.

I understand the intention is to help, but when you call another parent, you can’t control what that parent does with your words—or how that affects your own child. So you have to be very careful.

Now, does that mean you always have to have your child’s permission to reach out? No, it doesn’t. There are times where you’ll just do that because that’s your job. I just want people to be aware of that.

Also, when you call another parent, it’s critical to start the conversation with: “I know I only have one perspective here. I know I can only see what I can see. Can you tell me if there are things I’m not seeing? I’d love to know what’s going on from your perspective.”

In other words, you’re not going in heavy-handed or accusatory—you’re going in with humility. It’s okay to say you’re upset and to talk about what you know, but it’s critical to maintain the humility of realizing you don’t know everything.

And that children—just like everyone else—can have their own distortions or lenses through which they experience their peers.

Finally, when you talk to another parent, be very precise in your language when you describe what happened. Stick to the behaviors that allegedly occurred.

Like, you can say, “My understanding is that your kid called my kid with some kids over while they were having a sleepover, and it left my daughter feeling pretty embarrassed and hurt. Can you tell me more about what you know?”

So you’re not saying, “Your kid did this and really messed up my kid.” You’re saying, “Here’s my understanding of what happened, and here was the impact.” Those are two things you can control knowing—without accusing.

Sarah: Yeah, that makes sense. I made all the mistakes with my friend’s daughter’s mother, so yeah, I think your advice is good.

And I wish I had had it then. It’s so hard not to rush in as a parent, especially when kids are younger. It’s so hard not to rush in and try to—like you said—right things, to try to fix it and make things better.

There’s just a comment from Mare—when we were talking about kids going back to people who are unkind—she said that her grandson, who I know is nine, told her that he’s “an easy mark.” And when she asked why he felt that way, he said his friend punched him in the stomach and he just accepted that and continues to be friends with him.

Do you have any words for her around that—how she might support her grandson?

Rachel: Yeah. I mean, first of all, I like that he’s comfortable talking to his grandmother in that way—how wonderful for her that he’s so vulnerable and authentic. So I would, as the grandma, be very cautious and handle delicately the vulnerability your grandson’s giving you.

And I would be very inquisitive. I’d put on my coach’s hat and say, “Tell me more about that. Tell me more about what happens and why. Tell me more about your decision to accept it. What do you think would happen if you didn’t accept it?”

I’ve learned a lot in the later part of my career about the importance of just holding space for people to talk something through. You don’t have to give advice. You don’t have to have an idea. You can just ask questions and let them talk it through.

Talking aloud to someone who cares and listens closely is not that different from journaling. Both can help you arrive at new insights that you couldn’t otherwise on your own—but don’t require someone telling you what to do.

So I think that kind of stance, if you can take it with your grandson, would be very effective—and you’d probably learn a ton.

Sarah: Thanks. That’s great. So the final part of that three-part question that we keep getting back to is—what about with the school?

One thing that I thought was interesting in your book is you talked about how a lot of the kids that are doing the relational aggression have a lot of social status, and that it often flies under the radar—that the teachers don’t see what’s going on.

I think that would make it especially tricky to try to get support from the school if they’re not seeing what your child is reporting back to you.

Rachel: Yes, it does make it tricky. And you know, psychological aggression is just that—it’s psychological. So unless you’re listening, you’d miss it.

It’s also the case that—like Eddie Haskell in Leave It to Beaver—when the adult shows up, a lot of the most aggressive kids turn into very likable, charming, dynamic kids. They know how to work the adults in the room.

This is why even the most devoted, skilled teachers who really want to catch this stuff still say to me, “Why don’t I see it? I’m trying so hard.”

That does make it hard. And I say that because it makes it particularly hard for a school to respond if they’re like, “We don’t see it.”

So, when you talk to the school, it’s important to keep that in mind—that this stuff might not be visible.

It’s also important to practice that same humility, because often the school does see things you don’t. They may have awareness of the different sides of the story.

Schools are filled with human beings who are tired, and if they get a two-page single-spaced email from a parent at 11:30 at night with a call the next morning saying, “Why haven’t you responded?”—they’re not super psyched to work with you.

Treating people like they’re customer-service reps who are there to serve you—especially if you pay tuition—I understand why that happens, but you’re going to catch a lot more flies with honey.

Sarah: Than with vinegar.

Rachel: Yeah, I couldn’t remember what the insect was—but I think you catch more flies with honey.

It’s hard. It’s heavy. It’s a tall ask, because you’re hurting as a parent—you’re frustrated, you’re angry, you’re worried about your kid. But it’s a really complex situation.

A couple other ways to approach this: figure out if your school has an anti-bullying or behavior policy that acknowledges these more indirect forms of aggression.

Also, I’d caution parents against using the word bullying unless it actually meets that definition. That’s a big turn-off for school administrators and teachers when parents elevate something to bullying that isn’t.

Bullying is more of a protracted campaign of one person against another, typically with a big power dynamic. Most of what kids experience are acts of aggression, but not ongoing campaigns.

So being careful about the words you use is important too.

And then, see what training teachers have—what professional development they’ve been given around what to look out for, how to manage their classrooms.

There was a long period in my life where all I did was professional development sessions for schools. We talked about, “Have you talked to your students about body language? About the power of rolling your eyes when someone speaks up, or laughing, or staring?”

Those are silent behaviors, but they send strong messages. Many teachers don’t have those conversations with students—and that’s the kind of thing that makes a difference in communicating expectations.

Sarah: Someone on the call just asked a question related to that. She’s curious what you have to say about shame being used by girls as a form of aggression—especially middle schoolers.

Rachel: That’s interesting—when you say shame, meaning like trying to shame the target for something they’ve done?

Sarah: Yeah, she says yes. Like rolling your eyes at somebody when they do something—that would make someone feel a sense of shame. She also said her daughter was shamed for talking to boys.

Rachel: Yeah. So I think there’s quite a bit of shame that both boys and girls experience.

So—sorry, I’m reading the comments too—your daughter was shamed for talking to boys who came to their lunch table, and was asked to sit at a different lunch table?

Yeah, I wonder if that’s about shaming for breaking an unwritten code—“We don’t talk to boys.” Which can also be rooted in cultural expectations around girls—like, “You’re such a slut if you talk to boys,” or “We don’t.”

And so there’s a way in which girls can police each other and shame each other by channeling messages from the culture that they’ve learned.

What I have to say about that is that girls do become agents of the culture—and of patriarchal culture—that says, “You’re not supposed to talk to boys because that means you must be sexual with them,” or, “We just don’t like those people, so we’re going to punish you.”

Boys will do it to each other too—when they’re vulnerable or show feelings.

So, to support a girl who’s going through that: if we think about the definition of shame, it’s to feel like you are a bad person—that your core identity is defective.

The difference between shame and guilt is that shame is about you, and guilt is about the thing you did.

We’re all vulnerable to shame, but I think tween girls are particularly so because they’re both able to understand what adults are saying and still in a very self-focused moment in development. That’s a pretty toxic brew.

It means you can easily take on shame without fully understanding what’s being said to you.

So I think just really taking a moment to say, “You are a good human being. You are valued. You are loved. You’re not alone.”

You may not think a moment like this requires those words, but if your child is feeling ashamed because of those behaviors, it’s important to remind them they’re just like everyone else—in the best way—and that even if they’ve been othered or singled out, they’re still part of a loved whole, whether that’s family or friends.

Sarah: Yeah, when you were saying that, I was reminded of something I did with my daughter that I talk about a lot—making sure our children, even if they’re having social troubles or not feeling like they have friends or the friends they want—making sure they feel unconditionally loved and appreciated and delighted in and celebrated at home can be very protective, I think.

And I’ve heard adults talk about that—who were bullied—and say, “The only reason I came through it with my self-esteem intact was that my parents made me believe this wasn’t happening because there was something wrong with me.” They made me feel loved and celebrated and appreciated at home.

So I think that’s something for all of us to keep sight of too—if our kids are having friendship troubles—to do the work at home to help them.

Rachel: Yes. A thousand percent. That has nothing to do with their friends.

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: Yes.

Sarah: Okay, two more questions before we let you go. A question from a member who couldn’t be on the call: any advice for making future friends once they’ve gone through a mean relationship?

So this person’s child is on the other side of a difficult elementary school relationship, starting middle school at a new school, and is finding it hard—maybe she’s a little hesitant about making new friends after what she’s gone through. Any advice about that?

Rachel: I think you validate it. You validate the hesitation.

And you also say, “Hey—do you notice how many people date and break up and then start dating new people? Or get divorced and marry new people? Friendships are the same thing.”

We’re not meant to have one best friend forever—that’s a myth. People lose friends and also cut loose people that aren’t right for them.

Maybe your daughter’s been through that—but remind her we’re constantly regenerating new connections.

It’s okay to feel a little gun-shy or apprehensive. Ask, “What would make you feel more comfortable making new friends so you don’t feel like you’re exposing yourself too much?”

Again, always staying curious, inquisitive—not assuming you know what’s right because you’re the parent—but asking, “What would need to be true for you to feel comfortable making this new friendship?”

Maybe she’s not comfortable socializing one-on-one outside of school for a long time and wants to keep it to school. That’s okay.

So being flexible and kind of flexing to where your child is, while also holding the line about the importance of continuing to connect—that’s important.

Sarah: Love that. My final question to you is one I ask all my podcast guests—and you can answer this in any context, not just what we were talking about today—but if you had a time machine and could go back to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?

Rachel: Oh my God, so much. Don’t let your kid have YouTube as early as you did. That would be the first one.

I guess I’d say that feeling out of control is normal—and you’ve got to learn to breathe through that more. Yelling isn’t going to give you anything but a false sense of control, and it’s just going to upset your kid.

That’s the truth of it. I think I would’ve yelled less if I’d been more comfortable with the discomfort—feeling like things were out of control and I couldn’t manage or have the solution for something.

Sarah: Love that. Thank you so much for joining us. Where’s the best place for folks to find out more about you and what you do?

Rachel: Find me at rachelsimmons.com.

Sarah: All right. Thank you so much, Rachel.

Rachel: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Great questions.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein returns to talk with me about what parents need to know about concerning anti-woman rhetoric and actions in the “manosphere” and the “womanosphere”.

We cover the philosophy of each, the terms and important figures of these movements, as well as what to do if your kid is already being influenced and how to protect them from these harmful messages.

Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!

We talk about:

7:10 What is misogyny?
7:45 What is the “manosphere”?
15:00 What is the “womanosphere”?
20:00 What are the false statistics that have a lot of traction?
22:00 What do we do as parents for our boys?
26:00 What to do if your boys are listening to misogynistic influencers
28:00 The four parts of developing critical media literacy
35:30 How to mentor not monitor social media
34:00 Terminology we need to know as parents

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Sexism and Sensibility: Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls in the Modern World with Jo Ann Finkelstein: Episode 164
Sexism & SensibilityRaising Empowered, Resilient Girls In The Modern World
Episode 118: Raising Kids in the Era of Technology with Devorah Heitner
Jo-Ann Finkelstein’s Substack
Jo-Ann Finkelstein’s website

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Transcript:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast.

I’ve been noticing a lot in the media, and in the world around me, an enormous amount of tension around gender equity and ideology—as well as seeing concerning anti-woman rhetoric and actions. I’ve also heard from parents who are worried about the influencers and media their kids are being exposed to, and the really quite problematic ideas that come with that.

That’s why I asked Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein to come back on the podcast. She was on an earlier episode about her book Sexism and Sensibility—we’ll link to that in the show notes if you haven’t heard it yet. I wanted her to talk with me about what parents need to know about the manosphere and the womanosphere.

You might not even have heard of the womanosphere—I just learned about it through Jo-Ann’s work. And while I think most of us have heard of the manosphere, we might not be quite sure what it is. Jo-Ann gives us a great overview of the big ideas, terms, and key figures of these movements, as well as what to do if your child is already being influenced—and how to protect them from these, quite frankly, harmful ideas.

If you know anyone who needs to hear this, please share it with them. And we’d really appreciate it if you’d rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast player app—it really helps us reach more families and support more children and their caregivers.

Let’s meet Jo-Ann.

Sarah: Hey, Jo-Ann, welcome back to the podcast.

Jo-Ann: I am so glad to be back.

Sarah: I’ve really been wanting to talk to you about today’s topic because there’s just so much going on in the world—and in North America right now—that feels so hard. Especially as a person who cares about people, and as a parent. I get your Substack and I love what you write about gender equity and sexism. Of course, your book Sexism and Sensibility was what you were on the podcast to talk about last time—it’s a wonderful book. We’ll link to that episode and to your book in the show notes.

But before I dive in any further, tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do.

Jo-Ann: I’m a clinical psychologist and a writer. I wrote the book Sexism and Sensibility: Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls in the Modern World, as you just mentioned. I see all genders in my private practice, but I do see a lot of girls and women—and a lot of mothers and daughters.

Since writing the book, and especially since the political changes we’ve seen in the United States, I’ve really expanded the areas I study, think about, and write about. So I’m glad to be here to talk about such an important topic—the manosphere and the womanosphere.

Sarah: I’m so glad you’re here to talk about it. My feeling is that we’re going backwards in terms of gender equity and women’s rights—rights that were hard-won over generations. We’ve seen the loss of reproductive rights in the U.S. and threats of even more restrictions. And it feels like it’s become more acceptable again to share misogynistic viewpoints, especially with the rise of the manosphere and the womanosphere.

Before we go further, can you explain a few things for anyone who might not know? What is misogyny?

Jo-Ann: Misogyny literally means “hatred of women,” but it’s often used more broadly to describe the sexism women experience. It can be an attitude or an action—something someone does to put down or harm someone who identifies as female.

Sarah: Okay, and then the manosphere and the womanosphere—or femosphere, as you said it’s sometimes called.

Jo-Ann: Yes, though there are slight differences between the womanosphere and femosphere. But basically, the manosphere is a diverse collection of websites, blogs, and online forums that promote masculinity, misogyny, and opposition to feminism.

In a world where two-thirds of young men say that nobody really knows them—and where there’s no clear agreement on what a “good man” looks like or how to become one—it creates the perfect conditions for men to look for connection online, often through the manosphere.

This network swoops in to provide what feels like clear messaging about gender roles and relationships—and it promotes the belief that for women to advance, men have to lose something.

Sarah: When I was reading about it yesterday to prepare for this, one thing that stood out was that a lot of young men don’t necessarily encounter the overt anti-woman content right away. It often starts with fitness advice, or how to talk to girls—kind of self-improvement content. The anti-woman message is the undercurrent, but it’s still there.

Jo-Ann: Exactly. They swoop in with these simple explanations of how to be a man—and they groom these boys in a very slow-drip way. The scary messages are mixed in with talk about gaming, relationships, mental health, wellbeing, getting rich, and getting enough protein.

The misogyny starts as memes or jokes—things that can be brushed off as humor or “locker room talk.” But over time, algorithm pulsl them further down the rabbit hole, toward deeper messages about being victimized by society.

You can imagine a lonely, rejected boy sitting at his computer thinking, “Yeah, that’s not fair—I haven’t done anything wrong. The system is rigged against me. I’m being victimized.” It’s a very appealing message for someone who feels like a loser—to reframe himself as an underdog, downtrodden by a world that’s unfair to him.

Sarah: Do you think that connects to the Me Too movement? Was the rise of the manosphere a response to that, or did it start earlier?

Jo-Ann: I don’t know if there’s a direct line, but yes—I write a lot about backlash. Me Too was a real moment for women to speak up and have their voices heard, to talk about the things in our culture that are frightening, violent, and deeply unfair.

Whenever there’s progress, there’s backlash. As women began to be heard and things started to change, it felt threatening to some men. That’s part of what fuels the manosphere.

And just to clarify for your listeners—kids don’t call it “the manosphere.” Adults do. The kids think that term is totally cringe.

Sarah: Right, your teenager’s not going to respond if you say, “Who do you follow in the manosphere?” They’ll be like, “What?”

Jo-Ann: Exactly.

Sarah: But I have had a friend—a progressive dad—reach out to say, “My 15-year-old son loves Andrew Tate. What do I do?” And Andrew Tate seems like one of the biggest figures in the manosphere.

Jo-Ann: Yes, Andrew Tate is huge—and very toxic. He was charged with sex trafficking and sexual assault in Romania and London, and Trump is thought to have even helped bring him back to the U.S. so he couldn’t be tried.

Sarah: Let’s talk a bit about the femosphere, but before that, I just want to say—my 18-year-old daughter started working in restaurants this year, and as much as it feels like we’re going backwards in some ways, I can see progress too. When I was her age, there were things that were totally acceptable—especially in restaurant culture—that no one would ever do now, at least not openly.

And I see in my kids’ generation this awareness and confidence—when someone says or does something inappropriate, they call it out right away.

Jo-Ann: Yes, we don’t want to be too depressing—there has been real progress. I wouldn’t say those things never happen anymore, but maybe they happen less, and there’s much more awareness around them.

Sarah: I think maybe part of the rise of the manosphere is that feeling among some men that the ground has shifted under them. There was this celebrity who got “canceled” for behavior that would have been considered normal when I was a teenager, and I think a lot of men who grew up with that were like, “Wait—that’s just how it’s always been.”

Jo-Ann: Exactly. That used to be part of masculinity—and now you’re saying they can’t do that. So they ask, “What is masculinity?” And women are saying, “Just behave well. Don’t be a creep.” And they’re like, “Wait—I thought that was being a man.” It’s confusing.

We have to listen to boys, take them seriously, and teach them well.

Sarah: Thank you for saying that—much more eloquently than I did. Okay, so what’s the womanosphere?

Jo-Ann: Before we go on, I want to add that some of the other big manosphere influencers are people like Logan Paul and the Nelk Boys—who, by the way, are from Canada originally. They’ve had a huge influence on boys and even on the U.S. election outcomes.

Sarah: I’d never even heard of them—thank you.

Jo-Ann: So, the womanosphere includes people like Brett Cooper and Candace Owens. It’s helpful to know what to look out for.

If the manosphere is toxic masculinity dressed up as philosophy, then the womanosphere is misogyny dressed up in milkmaid clothing.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jo-Ann: It looks soft, harmless, even aspirational—cottagecore filters, tradwife influencers with gorgeous homes and perfectly dressed kids. But beneath that aesthetic is a push for women to shrink themselves, to submit to their husbands, and to trade ambition for dependency.

It preys on the very real struggles women face. But instead of fighting for systemic change—like paid leave, affordable childcare, or equal partnership—it sells women this glossy rewind to the days when women were expected to find fulfillment only through being a wife and mother, taking on all the domestic labor with a smile.

If you’re a woman suffering, —or a girl who sees your mom — suffering under the weight of everything she does, the message “Just let him take care of you” can sound pretty appealing.

Sarah: It must also be a direct response to how hard it is for women to juggle it all. I was listening to an interview with Elizabeth Warren, and she talked about how, as a young mother, her biggest struggle was finding reliable, affordable childcare. Then her daughter’s biggest struggle was the same thing—and now her granddaughter’s is too.

And I recently listened to Ketanji Brown Jackson’s memoir, where she talked about crying on the kitchen floor because she didn’t know how she could keep working and still care for her kids, even with two working parents.

So when it all feels overwhelming, that romanticized domestic ideal must look really appealing.

Jo-Ann: Absolutely. Working and raising kids—it’s exhausting. I look back and don’t know how I survived those years. None of us can be the moms we want to be when we’re that tired and still fighting for equality at home.

So yes, when you see a woman on the internet who looks like she has it all together, you think, “I want that.”

Sarah: Yeah. And I think it can be even darker than just the “make your own bread and stay home” message—there’s also the undercurrent of submission, of not being an equal partner.

Jo-Ann: Oh yes. There’s a lot about submitting to your husband. The goal seems to be: if we glorify femininity and motherhood enough, women will stop demanding things like birth control and abortion access. They’ll become too overwhelmed, overburdened, and outnumbered to organize against a culture built to serve men’s needs at women’s expense.

I really do think this comes from a deep fear—among men in power—of women’s power. A fear that they’ll lose what they’ve long believed is their birthright.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jo-Ann: Their birthright of power, head of household status, sex—all the things they’ve been raised to believe they’re entitled to.

Sarah: Right? So, where does it make sense to go to next in our conversation here? I mean, I had some anecdotes that I’ve shared a couple of along the way, but one thing that made me think about this was watching this documentary—have you seen the Lilith Fair documentary on Netflix?

Jo-Ann: No, I haven’t.

Sarah: It was really good.

Jo-Ann: I’ve heard it’s really good.

Sarah: It was really good. Why Sarah McLachlan organized Lilith Fair was because she would go to a radio station, and they’d be like, “Oh, we really like your music, but we already have a woman on this week—we’re playing Tracy Chapman.” There was just so much sexism in the music industry, right? There wasn’t room for more than one woman at a time. So she was like, “I’m going to do a whole festival with only women.” And it was enormously successful.

Then the next weekend, I went to a three-day music festival, and I started counting how many women were on stage. I had to stop because it was so depressing. It’s still the same. It’s a little off-topic from the womanosphere and manosphere, but sometimes I just feel so helpless. Like, what’s the point in all of this? So what can we do as parents?

Jo-Ann: Before we get into the how-to, I just want parents to get a sense of what their kids are hearing. They’re hearing the same false statistics over and over again—like “false rape allegations are very common.” They hear that all the time.

So as a woman, you’re saying, “I’m counting these people on stage, and there are very few women.” But they’re hearing the opposite. They’re hearing, “Women are taking over,” that “men are losing out,” that “they’re being rejected because 80% of women only date 20% of men,” which is false. They hear conspiracy theories that feminists want to destroy white men, who are supposedly the real victims of society.

So your son is online, finding this community of guys who feel the same way he does—and they’re offering him belonging he may not have felt before. These are ready-made friends. And like you said, it’s this drip, this undercurrent. When they start to realize that these men are actually calling for the rape and destruction of women, it doesn’t sound that bad anymore because they’ve been so overwhelmed by these messages. It starts to sound normal—maybe even righteous—to incite hatred toward girls and women.

It doesn’t just harm women—it harms boys and men too, because it promotes unrealistic and extreme measures to “improve” their social standing. For example, “looksmaxing”—which can mean anything from hygiene tips and fitness routines to extreme dietary restrictions, cosmetic surgery, or steroid use.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jo-Ann: So as parents, we have to help boys integrate the idea of themselves as caring, emotionally connected, cooperative people—to see those qualities as aspirational, not emasculating.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jo-Ann: For the good of everybody. That’s a basic value that I’m sure many of your listeners already hold, but we have to help boys understand that those are human qualities, not feminine ones. Because at the root of sexism is the rejection of the feminine.

Sarah: The people listening to my podcast already care about connection, but I just want to call out—having raised two boys—don’t listen to anyone who tells you they need you less than your girls might, or that they’re not as bothered by things. They still need connection, care, and intimacy with their families just as much as girls do.

Jo-Ann: And they need it within friendships too. But when they seek it out, they’re called “soy boys” or “white knights.” If they’re seen as subservient to women in any way, or having needs that women have, they get called derogatory names.

Sarah: Okay. So, onto the how-to—what would you say to my friend whose 15-year-old loves Andrew Tate?

Jo-Ann: The first thing I’d say is don’t panic. Be curious. Really listen without jumping to react, even if what they say is shocking or upsetting—because that will just push them away.

I went through this with my son. It wasn’t extreme, but he was listening to a lot of those streamers. Thankfully, he was bringing some of this stuff to us, kind of with bravado. Inside, I’d feel disgusted or angry, but I kept my poker face and really listened.

We’re lucky—he grew up with parents who think critically about these things, and in a liberal extended family, so he was less likely to go down that road. But he really could have. He’s also very skeptical. He’d notice when some streamers shifted politically—from liberal to very conservative—and he’d say, “These people are getting paid.”

So we really want to help our kids develop critical media literacy.

Engaging online with your kid can be a natural way to start conversations about what they’re exposed to. I talk about this in my book—it can be broken down into four parts.

Sarah: Sure.

Jo-Ann: The first one is to promote skeptical thinking. Teach your kids to question information they see online. Encourage them to consider the source and the creator’s intentions. For example, they can ask, “Why is this person telling me this? What are they trying to sell me?”

The second is to explain the origins of online content. Teach them that many influencers monetize controversy. They use shock value, misinformation, or skewed statistics to get views—and their advice often lacks expertise. You can say, “These guys aren’t experts. I wonder where they’re getting their information. Let’s look up the real statistics.”

Third, teach them that these ideas aren’t just internet fads—they’re tied to larger political goals, like restricting reproductive rights, pushing “hyper-motherhood,” and keeping women too overburdened to organize.

Also, teach them how “anti-victim” language reframes systemic issues as personal failures. “It’s not sexism—it’s your mindset.”

Sarah: Right.

Jo-Ann: That’s especially true for girls, because it turns structural inequality into an individual woman’s problem to fix.

Sarah: Right—like, “You’re just not working hard enough,” or “You don’t believe in yourself.”

Jo-Ann: Exactly. Or, “It was just a joke. Stop being so sensitive.” It’s the same old stuff. We want them to understand that real liberation isn’t just “dealing with the cards you’re dealt.”

Because in the womanosphere, you’ll hear, “Men are just naturally stronger and need to lead—and if you let them, everything will be fine.” And in the femosphere, it’s “Men are trash; you’ve got to game the system, use them for money.” We want girls to see that real liberation is the opposite—it’s about naming injustice, demanding systemic change, and building communities of women.

The fourth part is to debunk pseudoscience. Teach kids to recognize misinformation—distorted statistics or pseudoscientific gender theories—and help them identify reputable sources. Give them solid information about mental health and relationships.

And finally, talk openly about and challenge gender stereotypes. Point out the endless denigration of girls and women in movies, TV shows, and other media. Help them see that stereotypes limit everyone and reinforce the rigid beliefs of those online echo chambers.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jo-Ann: I give a lot of examples of this in Sexism and Sensibility—common sexist themes in media that parents can use to reach their kids. Of course, you don’t want to “yuck their yum” too much, or they’ll tune you out. Ask open-ended questions, share your thoughts, and encourage reflection—but don’t be heavy-handed, or you’ll lose them.

Sarah: Yeah, that’s super important. Because if you go too hard, they’ll just go underground. They won’t tell you what they’re following or listening to, and you’ll have even less ability to help them think critically about it.

Where do you stand on social media guidelines? Do you think people are right to say “no social media until 16”?

Jo-Ann: I’m not a social media expert, but I don’t think waiting until 16 is realistic. I really believe “mentor, not monitor” is the more effective way—because kids will always find ways around the rules.

Of course, when they’re young, the longer you can delay Snapchat, Instagram, and TikTok, the better. But that’s how teens find community and connect. It’s not all bad. Boys, for example, do find real communities online—on Discord, for instance—it’s just which communities they find that’s the problem. So yes, mentor, not monitor.

Sarah: “Mentor, not monitor.” I like that. That’s helpful.

Jo-Ann: Credit to Devorah Heitner.

Sarah: I was going to say! Aren’t you friends with Devorah Heitner? I’ve heard her say that. She’s also been on the podcast, and we’ll link to that episode in the show notes.

So—what should I have asked you about that I haven’t?

Jo-Ann: Maybe some of the terminology. Do parents know what “red-pilling” is?

Sarah: Tell us.

Jo-Ann: It’s basically the manosphere’s core philosophy. It comes from The Matrix and means “waking up” to feminism’s supposed oppression of men. The “blue pill” represents ignorance—someone who doesn’t realize men are being oppressed. The “black pill” is used by incels, meaning they’ve accepted their “terminal celibacy.”

Maybe I should explain who the different groups of the manosphere are.

An incel believes men are entitled to sex but aren’t getting it because women deny them—and that women should be punished for that.

Then there are Pickup Artists—this is a $100 million global industry led by men who boast about rape and believe it should be legalized on public property. They train men to harass and assault women.

Then there are Men’s Rights Activists. They claim to care about men’s issues, but in practice, they focus on attacking women and dismantling feminism—bringing lawsuits to defund sexual violence services or weaken women’s protections.

And finally, there’s “Men Going Their Own Way” (MGTOW)—men who believe women are so toxic they have to cut them out of their lives altogether.

Sarah: Wow. This is dark stuff.

Jo-Ann: It really is.

Sarah: It reminds me of that idea that there’s only one pie—if other people get rights, it takes away from yours.

Jo-Ann: Exactly. But I believe we can help boys and men see that it’s not a limited pie. They may have to give something up, but they also gain something—relationships, connection, emotional fulfillment.

Care work in this culture is so demeaned that men avoid it—but it’s also where so much of women’s connection comes from. Many men’s deathbed regrets are about not having the relationships they wanted.

So yes, as women take on more public work, men will have to take on more private work—not more overall, but more equally—and they’ll also gain. Yes, they might have to wash the toilet, but they’ll get more time with their kids, more friendships, more access to their own emotions.

Sarah: I remember when our first son was born, my husband hadn’t really taken care of babies before, and I had. I was much more comfortable changing diapers, all that. His first instinct was, “You do that—you’re better at it.” And I said, “This is where all the connection happens—in the caregiving. If you miss out on that, you’ll miss out on the connection.”

He was like, “Oh, okay.” I think he was just nervous.

Jo-Ann: What a beautiful thing to say to him. That’s so impactful.

Sarah: Yeah, because connection was important to him—he wanted that bond with our baby, but he didn’t realize how much of it comes through caregiving.

Jo-Ann: Exactly. And you’re reminding me of a statistic: people say women are more nurturing, but research shows proximity changes hormones. When men spend more time caregiving, their “nurturing” hormones increase too.

Sarah: I’ve read that! It’s so cool. And it feels good too, right? The oxytocin.

Jo-Ann: Yes, exactly.

Sarah: Thank you so much. I think this will be really helpful for parents to understand what their kids are being exposed to.

Jo-Ann: My pleasure. I’m so glad you’re talking about this—it’s so important.

Sarah: I encourage everyone to check out your Substack and your book. We’ll link to both in the show notes. Before I let you go, I ask all my guests this: if you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?

Jo-Ann: Oh boy, so much. I’d tell myself not to get caught up in the competitive stuff. At the time, I thought I wasn’t, but I was. I told myself I wasn’t a good enough mother because I wasn’t baking endless banana bread like my mom did, or because my house wasn’t as neat as someone else’s. But that’s just culture’s way of undermining women and making motherhood a competitive sport—when really, we all just need to have each other’s backs.

Sarah: Love that. Thank you so much, Jo-Ann, for coming on. What’s the best place for folks to find you?

Jo-Ann: My website is jo-annfinkelstein.com. My Substack is Raising Her Voice—jo-annfinkelstein.substack.com—and I’m also on Instagram and TikTok at jo-annfinkelstein.phd.

Sarah: Great. We’ll link to all those in the show notes. Thank you so much.

Jo-Ann: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, we have a coaching call with Laurel and Derrick.

This call is such a good one because we cover ALL the big ideas behind the peaceful parenting approach, while applying them to real life scenarios in a home with three kids.

Topics include sibling rivalry, nurturing our kids, self regulation, how to handle kids asking lots of questions and always wanting more, what parenting without punishment looks like, and more!

Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!

We talk about:

7:00 What it looks like when our children truly respect us
9:00 7-year-old refusing to get dressed
12:10 Why it is okay baby and nurture our kids
14:00 Tuning into our own self regulation
18:00 Mindset shifts to give our kids the benefit of the doubt
19:30 How to handle sibling rivalry
24:00 Don’t try to make it a teachable moment
38:00 When kids ask questions over and over
41:00 Why kids always want more!
45:00 Helping kids see how their actions affect other people
55:00 Why kids lie and what to do
57:00 Natural consequences, boundaries, and limits
1:02 Peaceful Parenting Mantras

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Free Stop Sibling Fights E book
Free How To Stop Yelling at Your Kids e-course

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Transcript:

Derrick: Hi, good morning.

Sarah: Hi Derek. Nice to meet you. Hi Laurel. Hi. Are you a firefighter, Derek? I’m—yeah, I’m actually—I see you’ve got your sweatshirt.

Derrick: Yeah. Just a heads up, I may have to jump off if we get a call.

Sarah: Okay. Well, so nice to meet you guys. So you’ve got three—boy, girl, girl. And what would you like to talk about today?

Laurel: I think I just love your whole—I’ve sent Derek a couple things—but I just love your whole premise of peacefulness and remaining calm when it’s easy to get angry. Mm-hmm. And just some tools for doing that. I guess like some basic things, because we would both like to say where, you know, we have like, you know, the streaks where we’re all calm, calm, calm, and then just—and then her, yeah, limit. Yeah.

And so yeah, just tools for when that happens. We have very typical age-appropriate kind of response kids, mm-hmm, that need to be told 80 times something. And so it’s frustrating. And then how to help them kind of see—without bribing, without threatening discipline, without all of that. Yeah. Like how to have a better dialogue with our kids of teaching respect and teaching kind of “we do this, you do this.”

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, maybe. Okay. So there’s always gonna be situations where it’s hard to stay calm, you know? Just being a parent—like of course your kids are gonna push your buttons sometimes. But rather than—so, we do always start with self-regulation.

And what I mean by self-regulation isn’t that you never get upset. It’s that when you do get upset, you know how to calm yourself and take a minute, take a breath—whatever you need to do—so that you don’t yell. Because yelling hurts our relationship with our kids. You mentioned respect. I think there’s an old idea of respect that used to mean that kids were afraid of their parents, right?

But real respect is that you care what another person thinks. Like, that’s real respect. I don’t want to do this because I don’t want my dad or my mom to be unhappy with me—not that I’m afraid of what’s gonna happen if I do it, but I care what they think and they care what I think. And that’s how I define respect. True respect doesn’t mean that you’re afraid of somebody; it means that you care what they think, right?

So when we yell, we chip away at that. Like yeah, we could get them to do what we want through yelling or threatening things or taking things away, but we’re chipping away at our relationship with them. And that’s really the only true influence.

And as your kids are getting older, you’re gonna see that you can control them when they’re little, right? Because you can pick them up and move them from one place to another or whatever. But there’s a famous quote by a psychologist that says, “The problem with using control when kids are young is that you never learn how to influence them, which is what you need as they get older.” Right? You need to be able to influence them, to get them to do what you would like them to do. And it’s all about the relationship. That’s really what I see as the most important thing.

So back to what I was saying about yelling—yes, that’s really important to be working on—but there’s also: how do I be more effective so the kids will listen to me and I don’t have to ask 80 times? How do I get their attention in an effective way? How do I get them to cooperate the first time or at least the second time?

So it’s a combination of learning how to calm yourself and stay calm when things are hard, and also being more effective as a parent—not asking 25 times, because that just trains them to ignore you. Like, “Oh, I don’t have to do it until they yell,” or “I don’t have to do it until they’ve asked me 25 times.”

If there’s something really unpleasant you had to do at work that you didn’t want to do, you might also ignore your boss the first 24 times they asked you until you knew they were really serious, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, you wouldn’t, but you know what I mean. If they can keep playing a little bit longer, they will keep playing a little bit longer.

So I think what would be helpful is if you gave me some situations that have happened that you find challenging, and then we can do a little bit of a deeper dive into what you could have done instead, or what you could do next time if a similar thing comes up.

Laurel: Yeah. I mean, for my daughter, for example, the middle one—she’s so sweet, she’s such a feeler—but then when she gets to the point where she’s tired, hungry, it’s all the things. She often doesn’t wanna pick out her clothes. Something super simple like that.

But when I’m making lunches and the other kids are getting ready and all the things, I just have to have her—I’m like, “You’re seven, you can pick out clothes.” I give her some options, and then she’ll just lay on the floor and start screaming, “You don’t care! Why don’t you pick out my clothes?”

And then instead of me taking the time that I know I need to, I just tell her, “You have one minute or else this—so you lose this.” I just start kind of like, “This is yesterday.” You know, so she doesn’t wanna get dressed, doesn’t wanna get her shoes on. “You get my socks, you get all the big—” And then I end up picking her up, standing her up, “You need to get dressed.” And then both of us are frustrated.

Sarah: Yeah. No, that’s a great example.

So first of all, whenever there’s difficult behavior in our child, we try to look below the surface to see what’s causing it. The symptom you see on the outside is a kid lying on the floor refusing to do something she’s perfectly capable of doing herself. That’s the iceberg part above the water. But what’s underneath that?

To me, I’m seeing a 7-year-old who has a 3-year-old sibling who probably does get help getting dressed, a capable older brother, and it’s hard to give enough attention to three kids. What I see this as is a bid for attention and connection from you.

I don’t know if you listen to my podcast, but I did an episode about when kids ask you to do things for them that they can do themselves. Seven is a perfect age because you’re like, “Oh my God, you’re so capable of getting dressed yourself—what do you mean you want me to put your shoes on you?” But if you can shift your mind to think, Ah, she’s asking me to do something she can do—she needs my connection and nurturing.

So what if you thought, “Okay, I just spent all this energy yelling at her, trying to get her to do it. What if I just gave her the gift of picking her clothes out for her and getting her dressed?” It would probably be quicker, start your day on a happier note, and you would have met that need for connection.

And yes, it’s asking more of you in the moment, because you’re trying to make lunches. But this is a beautiful example because you’ll probably see it in other areas too—what’s underneath this difficult behavior? Kids really are doing the best they can. That’s one of our foundational paradigm shifts in peaceful parenting. Even when they’re being difficult, they’re doing the best they can with the resources they have in that moment.

So when someone’s being difficult, you can train yourself to think: Okay, if they’re doing the best they can, what’s going on underneath that’s causing this behavior?

I just want to say one more thing, because later on you might think, “Wait—Sarah’s telling me to dress my 7-year-old. What about independence?” Just to put your fears aside: kids have such a strong natural drive for independence that you can baby them a little bit and it won’t wreck them. Everybody needs a little babying sometimes—even you guys probably sometimes. Sometimes you just want Laurel to make you a coffee and bring it to you in bed. You can get your own coffee, but it’s nice to be babied and nurtured.

So we can do that safely. And I tell you, I have a 14-year-old, 17-year-old, and 20-year-old—very babied—and they’re all super independent and competent kids. My husband used to say, “You’re coddling them.” I’d say, “I’m nurturing them.”

Laurel: Oh, I like that.

Sarah: Okay. So I just wanted to say that in case the thought comes up later. Independence is important, but we don’t have to push for it.

Derrick: Yeah. No, I think that’s super helpful. And I love—one of my good buddies just came out with a book called The Thing Beneath the Thing.

Sarah: Oh, I love that.

Derrick: It’s such a good reminder. I think sometimes, like you addressed, Laurel is often a single mom and there is the reality of—she’s gotta make lunch, she’s gotta do laundry, she’s gotta whatever. And sometimes there’s just the logistical impossibility of, “I can’t do that and this and get out the door in time and get you to camp on time, and here comes the carpool.”

And so sometimes it just feels like there needs to be better planning. Like, “You just gotta wake up earlier, you gotta make lunch before you go to bed, or whatever,” to have the space to respond to the moment. Because the reality is, you never know when it’s coming.

Like, totally independent, and she wants to pick out her own clothes in one example—but then all these things creep up.

Another way to describe what Laurel and I were talking about in terms of triggers is: I feel like we both really take a long time to light our fuse. But once it’s lit, it’s a very short fuse.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Derrick: So it’s like for me especially, I’m cool as a cucumber and then all of a sudden the wick is lit and I’ll explode.

Sarah: Yeah. I think that’s really good to be aware of. The thing is, if you go forward from today and start looking—you’re calm, calm, calm, calm, calm—sometimes what’s actually happening is what my mentor calls gathering kindling.

We don’t realize it, but we’re gathering kindling along the way—resentment, eye-roll frustration. If you can start tuning in a little bit, you’ll see that yeah, you’re not yelling, but maybe you’re getting more frustrated as it goes on. That’s when you can intervene with yourself, like, “Okay, I need to take a five-minute break,” or, “We need to shift gears or tap each other out.”

Because it feels like it comes out of nowhere, but it rarely does. We’re just not aware of the building process of gathering kindling along the way.

Derrick: Yeah. No, that’s helpful. I have two examples that maybe you can help us with. You can pick one that you think is more important.

Sarah: Sure. And I just want to comment on one more thing you said before you go on—sorry to interrupt you. If it’s annoying to have to dress a 7-year-old in the middle of your morning routine, you can also make a mental note: Okay, what’s under the thing? What’s under the difficult behavior is this need for more connection and nurturing. So how can I fill that at a time that’s more convenient for me?

Maybe 7:30 in the morning while I’m trying to get everyone out the door is not a convenient time. But how can I find another time in the day, especially for my middle child? I’ve got three kids too, and I know the middle child can be a bit of a stirring-the-pot kid, at least mine was when he was little, trying to get his needs met. So how can I make sure I’m giving her that time she’s asking for, but in more appropriate times?

Derrick: Yeah, no, that’s helpful. I think part of my challenge is just understanding what is age-appropriate. For example, our almost 10-year-old literally cannot remember to flush the toilet.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Derrick: And it’s like, “Bro, flush the toilet.” It’s been this ongoing thing. That’s just one example. There are many things where you’re going, “You’re 10 years old, dude, you should know how to flush the toilet.” And then all the fears come in—“Is he ADD?”—and we start throwing things out there we don’t even know.

But it seems so simple: poop in the toilet, you flush it when you’re done. Why is that? And that’ll light a wick pretty quick, the third or fourth time you go in and the toilet’s not flushed.

Sarah: Yeah.

Derrick: And then you talk about it very peacefully, and he’ll throw something back at you.

Sarah: So do you have him go back and flush the toilet?

Derrick: We do.

Sarah: Okay, good. Because if you make it a tiny bit unpleasant that he forgot—like he has to stop what he’s doing and go back and flush it—that might help him in a kind and firm way. Like, “Oh, looks like you forgot. Pause your video game. Please go back and flush the toilet.”

Also, maybe put up some signs or something. By the sink, by the toilet paper. There are just some things that, if they’re not important to kids, it’s very hard for them to remember. Or if it’s not…

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told my boys, “Don’t put wet things in the hamper.” They’re 17 and 20 and it drives me insane. Like how hard is it to not throw a wet washcloth in the hamper? They don’t care if it smells like mildew.

Derrick: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s very frustrating. But they’re not doing it on purpose.

Derrick: That’s the narrative we write though, right? Like, you’re just defiant, you’re trying—because we’ve talked about this a million times. This is my desire.

Sarah: And you feel disrespecedt.

Derrick: Right.

Sarah: That is so insightful of you, Derek, to realize that. To realize that’s a trigger for you because it feels like he’s doing it on purpose to disrespect you. But having that awareness and a mindset shift—he’s not trying to give me a hard time. He’s just absent-minded, he’s 10, and he doesn’t care if the poop sits in the toilet. He’s just not thinking about it.

Derrick: Yeah.

I think the other example, which I’m sure is super common, is just: how do you manage them pushing each other’s buttons? They can do it so quickly. And then it’s literally musical chairs of explosive reactions. It happens everywhere. You’re driving in the car, button pushed, explosion. The 3-year-old’s melting, and Kira knows exactly what she’s doing. Then Blake, then Kira. They just know. They get so much joy out of watching their sibling melt and scream. Meanwhile, you’re in the front seat trying to drive and it’s chaos.

For me, that’s when I’ll blow my top. I’ll get louder than their meltdown. And my narrative is: they’re not even really upset, they’re just turning it on to get whatever they want.

Sarah: Classic sibling rivalry. Classic. Like, “How can I get Mom or Dad to show that they love me more than the other kid? Whose side are they gonna intervene on?” That’s so classic.

Kira came along and pushed Blake out of his preferred position as the baby and the apple of your eye. He had to learn to share you. Is it mostly Kira and Aubrey, or does everything roll downhill with all three?

Derrick: It just triangulates and crosses over. They know each other’s buttons. And you’re right—it’s always, “You always take her side. You never—”

Sarah: Yes. And whenever you hear the words “always” and “never,” you know someone’s triggered. They’re not thinking clearly because they’re upset and dysregulated.

Sibling rivalry, or resentment, whatever you want to call it, is always about: “Who do they love more? Will my needs get met? Do they love me as much as my brother or sister?” That fear is what drives the button-pushing.

It doesn’t make sense that you’d pick a fight hoping your parent will choose you as the one who’s right. But still, it’s this drive to create conflict in hopes that you’ll be the chosen one.

So I could go over my sibling best practices with you guys if you want. That’s really helpful for rivalry.

Derrick: Yeah.

Sarah: Okay. Do you currently have any rules about property or sharing in your house?

Laurel: Not officially. I mean—

Derrick: We typically will say stuff like, “That’s Kira’s. If she doesn’t want to share it with you, give it back.” But the problem is we have so much community property.

Sarah: Okay. That’s what I call it: community property. Yeah. So you’re doing exactly the right thing with things that belong to one person. They never have to share it if they don’t want to, and other people have to ask before they touch it. Perfect.

And in terms of community property, I’d suggest you have a rule: somebody gets to use something until they’re done. Period. Long turns.

I didn’t know this when my kids were little, and I had ridiculous song-and-dance with timers—“Okay, you can have it for 10 minutes and then you can have it for 10 minutes.” But that actually increases anxiety. You want to relax into your play, not feel like, “Oh, I’ve only got this for 10 minutes.”

So if it belongs to everyone, the person using it gets to use it as long as they want. And you empathize with the other person: “Oh, I know your brother’s been playing with that pogo stick for an hour. It’s so hard to wait, isn’t it? When it’s your turn, you’ll have it as long as you want.”

So if you have good sharing rules and community property rules right off the bat, you take away a lot of opportunities for resentment to build up

Derrick: My biggest question is just how do you intervene when those rules are violated?

Sarah: You just calmly say something like, “Oh, I know you really, really wanna play with the pogo stick. You cannot push your brother off of it just because you want a turn.” I’m just making things up here, but the idea is: you can’t push your brother off just because you want something. Then you go back to the family rules. You could even make a sign—I actually have one I can send you to print out—that says, “In our family, we get to use it as long as we want.”

And then you empathize with the aggressor about how hard it is to wait. Keep going back to the rules and offering lots of empathy. If someone’s being difficult, recognize that they’re having a hard time.

Laurel, when Derrick said, “You always…” or “You never…,” anytime you hear words like that, you know somebody’s hijacked by big feelings. That’s not the time to make it a teachable moment. Just empathize with the hard time they’re having. Nobody ever wants to calm down until they feel empathized with, acknowledged, and heard. You can always talk about it later if something needs to be discussed, but in the moment of heightened tension, just acknowledge feelings: “Oh my goodness, you were doing this thing and then your brother came and took it. This is so hard.”

I also have a little ebook with these best practices laid out—I’ll send it to you.

The third best practice is: always be the moderator, not the negotiator. If there’s a fight between the kids, your goal is to help them talk to each other. Don’t try to solve it or say who’s right or wrong. Even if you’re right and careful not to favor one child, your solution will always fuel sibling rivalry. The child who wasn’t chosen feels slighted, and the one who was chosen might think, “Dad loves me best.”

So my phrase is: “Be Switzerland.” Stay neutral, intervene in a neutral way, and help them talk to each other. Give each child a chance to speak. Do you want to give me an example we can walk through?

Derrick: A lot of times it’s not even about taking, it’s about disrupting. Aubrey has this baby doll she’s obsessed with. She carries it everywhere—it looks really real, kind of creepy. Blake will walk by, pull the pacifier out of its mouth, and throw it across the room. Instant meltdown. His thing is, he knows the rules and how to toe the line. He’ll say, “I didn’t take the baby, I just disrupted it.”

Sarah: Right, right.

Derrick: And then, “Deal with it.”

Sarah: Yeah, okay. So that’s not exactly a “be Switzerland” moment, because it’s not a two-way fight. He’s just provoking his sister to get a rise out of her. That’s classic sibling rivalry. It also sounds like he worries you don’t love him as much as his sisters. Does he ever say that out loud?

Laurel: He has sometimes. His other big thing is he doesn’t have a brother, but they have each other. He constantly brings that up.

Sarah: That’s what I call a chip on his shoulder. When he provokes her like that, it’s because he has feelings inside that make him act out. He’s not a bad kid; he’s having a hard time. Picking fights is often an attempt to get rid of difficult feelings. If we have a bad day and don’t process it, we might come home cranky or pick a fight—it’s not about the other person, it’s about us.

So I’d suggest having some heart-to-hearts with Blake, maybe at bedtime. Give him space to process. Say, “It must be really hard to have two little sisters and be the only boy. I bet you wish you had a brother.” Or, “I wonder if it’s hard to share me and mom with your sisters. I wonder if it’s hard being the oldest.” Share your own stories: “I remember when I was growing up, it was hard to be the big sister.” Or Derrick, you could share what it was like for your older sibling.

The same goes for Kira: “It must be hard being in the middle—your big brother gets to do things you can’t, and your little sister gets babied more.” The point is to let them express their feelings so they don’t have to act them out by provoking.

That provocative behavior is just difficult feelings looking for a way out. Your role is to open the door for those feelings. Say things like, “I know this must be hard. I hear you. You can always talk to me about your feelings. All your feelings are okay with me.” And you have to mean it—even if they say things like, “I wish they didn’t exist,” or, “I wish you never had that baby.” That’s totally normal. Don’t be afraid of it. Resist the urge to offer silver linings like, “But sometimes you play so well together.” It’s not time for optimism—it’s time for listening and acknowledging.

You can also say, “I’m sorry if I ever did anything that made you feel like I didn’t love you as much as your sisters. I couldn’t love anyone more than I love you.” You can say that to each child without lying, because it’s true. That reassurance goes to the root of sibling rivalry.

Derrick: That’s really helpful. I’d love your insight on some of the things we’re already doing. Lately, I’ve realized I spend more time in the girls’ room at bedtime. Blake has his own room. He’s more self-sufficient—he can read and put himself to sleep. For the past year, I’ve been reading in the girls’ room instead, since they need more wrangling. So I’ve tried to switch that and spend more time in Blake’s room reading with him. We’ve also started doing “mom dates” or “dad dates” with each kid.

Sarah: That’s perfect! My final best practice is one-on-one time. You’re on the right track. It doesn’t have to be a “date.” Special Time is 15 minutes a day with each child, right at home. You don’t need to go to the aquarium or spend money. Just say, “I’m all yours for the next 15 minutes—what do you want to play?” Try to keep it play-centered and without screens.

Laurel: Sometimes when we call it a “mommy date,” it turns into something big. That makes it hard to do consistently.

Sarah: Exactly. You can still do those, but Special Time is smaller and daily. Fifteen minutes is manageable. With little ones, you might need to get creative—for example, one parent watches two kids while the other has Special Time with the third. You could even “hire” Blake to watch Aubrey for a few minutes so you can have time with Kira.

Laurel: That makes sense. I did think of an example, though. What frustrates me most isn’t sharing, but when they’re unkind to each other. I harp on them about family sticking together and being kind. For example, last week at surf camp, both kids had zinc on their faces—Blake was orange, Kira was purple. She was so excited and bubbly that morning, which is unusual for her. In front of neighbor friends, Blake made fun of her purple face. It devastated her. I laid into him, telling him he’s her protector and needs to be kind. I don’t want to be too hard on him, but I also want him to understand.

Sarah: Based on everything we’ve talked about, you can see how coming down hard on him might make him feel bad about himself and worry that you don’t love him—fueling even more resentment. At the same time, of course we don’t want siblings hurting each other’s feelings. This is where empathic limits come in.

You set the limit—“It’s not okay to tease your sister because it hurts her feelings”—but you lead with his perspective. You might say, “Hey, I know people with color on their faces can look funny, and maybe you thought it was just a joke. At the same time, that really made your sister feel bad.” That way, you correct him without making him feel like a bad kid.

Do you think he was trying to be funny, or was he trying to hurt her?

Laurel: I think he was. He’ll also reveal secrets or crushes in front of friends—he knows it’s ammo.

Sarah: Right. In that situation, I’d first empathize with Kira: “I’m so sorry your brother said that—it never feels good to be laughed at.” Then privately with Blake: “What’s going on with you that you wanted to make your sister feel bad?” Come at it with curiosity, assuming he’s doing the best he can. If he says, “I was just joking,” you can respond, “We need to be more careful with our jokes so they’re not at anyone’s expense.” That’s correcting without shaming.

Laurel: I love that. Sometimes I’m trying to say that, but not in a peaceful way, so he can’t receive it. Then he asks, “Am I a bad kid?” and I have to backtrack.

Sarah: Exactly—skip the part that makes him feel like a bad kid. Sensitive kids don’t need much correction—they already feel things deeply. Just get curious.

Laurel: That makes sense. Correcting without shaming.

Sarah: Yes.

Laurel: We also tried something new because of the constant questions. They’ll keep asking: “Can I do this? Can I watch a show?” We got tired of repeating no. So now we say, “I don’t know yet. Let me think about it. But if you ask again, the answer will be no.” Is that okay?

Sarah: I used to say, “If I have to give a quick answer, it’s going to be no.” I’d also say, “You can ask me as many times as you want, but the answer will still be no.” With empathy: “I know it’s hard to hear no, but it’s still no.” Another thing I said was, “It would be so much easier for me to say yes. But I love you enough to say no.” That helped my kids see it wasn’t easy for me either.

Laurel: That’s helpful. Another thing: our kids do so much—they’re busy and around people a lot, partly because of our personalities and being pastors. We try to build in downtime at home, but often after a fun day they complain on the way home: “Why do we have to go to bed?” They don’t reflect on the fun—they just want more.

Sarah: That’s totally normal. You could go to an amusement park, eat pizza and ice cream, see a movie, and if you say no to one more thing, they’ll say, “We never do anything fun!” Kids are wired to want more. That’s evolutionary: quiet kids who didn’t ask for needs wouldn’t survive. Wanting isn’t a problem, and it doesn’t mean they’ll turn into entitled adults.

Kids live in the moment. If you say no to ice cream, they fixate on that, not the whole day. So stay in the moment with them: “You really wanted ice cream. I know it’s disappointing we’re not having it.” Resist the urge to say, “But we already did all these things.”

Laurel: I love that. We even started singing “Never Enough” from The Greatest Showman, and now they hate it. It feels like nothing is ever enough.

Sarah: That’s normal.

Laurel: I also want to bring it back to peaceful, no-fear parenting. I can be hard on myself, and I see that in my kids. I don’t want that.

Sarah: If you don’t want your kids to be hard on themselves, model grace for yourself. Say, “I messed up, but I’m still worthy and lovable.” Being hard on yourself means you only feel lovable when you don’t make mistakes. We want our kids to know they’re lovable no matter what—even when they mess up or bother their siblings. That’s true self-worth: being lovable because of who you are, not what you do. That’s what gives kids the courage to take risks and not stay small out of fear of failure. They’ll learn that from your modeling.

Laurel: That makes sense.

Sarah: And I’ve never, ever seen anyone do this work without being compassionate with themselves.

Laurel: Hmm. Like—

Sarah: You can’t beat yourself up and be a peaceful parent.

Laurel: Yeah, I know. Because then I’d see them doing it. It’s like, no, I don’t. Yeah. Yeah. I purposely don’t want you guys to be that way. Yeah. That’s great. Those are all good things to think about. I think the other questions I can tie back to what you’ve already answered, like being disrespectful or sassiness creeping in—the talking back kind of stuff. And that’s all from, I mean, it stems from not feeling heard, not feeling empathized with.

Sarah: Totally. And being hijacked by big feelings—even if it’s your own big feelings of not getting what you want. That can be overwhelming and send them into fight, flight, or freeze. Sassiness and backtalk is the fight response. It’s the mild fight. They’re not screaming, hitting, or kicking, but just using rude talk.

Laurel: Hmm. And so same response as a parent with that too? Just be in the moment with their feelings and then move on to talking about why and letting them kind of—

Sarah: Yeah. And empathizing. Just like, “Ah, you’re really…” Say they’re saucy about you not letting them have some ice cream. “You never let me have ice cream! This is so unfair! You’re so mean!” Whatever they might say. You can respond, “Ugh, I know, it’s so hard. You wish you could have all the ice cream in the freezer. You’d eat the whole carton if you could.” Just recognize what they’re feeling. It doesn’t have to be a teachable moment about sugar or health. You can just be with them in their hard time about not getting what they want. And they’ll get through to the other side—which builds resilience.

Laurel: How do you discipline when it’s needed—not punish, but discipline? For example, a deliberate rule is broken, somebody gets hurt, or stealing—like when it’s clear they know it was wrong?

Sarah: You want to help them see how their actions affect other people, property, or the community. That’s where they internalize right and wrong. If you give them a punishment for breaking something, that only teaches them how their actions affect them—not how their actions affect others. That makes kids think, “What’s in it for me? I better not do this thing because I don’t want to get in trouble,” instead of, “I better not do this because it will hurt my sister or disappoint my parents.” So punishments and imposed consequences pull kids away from the real consequences—like someone getting hurt or trust being broken.

You really want to help them understand: “The reason why we have this rule is because of X, Y, Z. And when you did this, here’s what happened.” If they have a problem with the rule, talk about it together as a family. That works much better than punishment.

Laurel: We had an incident at church where our 10-year-old was talking about something inappropriate with another kid. The other parent reached out, and I feel like we handled it okay. We talked with him, he was open, and we discussed what was said. Then we apologized to that parent in person and had a conversation. It didn’t feel like we were forcing him to do something bad or shaming him.

Sarah: That’s good—it’s about making a repair. That’s always the focus. Without knowing the whole situation, I might not have said apologizing to the parent, because technically the parent wasn’t directly involved. But if your son was willing and it felt authentic, that’s great. What matters is the outcome: repair. Sometimes parents suggest an apology to make the child feel ashamed so they’ll “remember it,” but that’s not helpful. The question is: does the apology or repair actually improve the situation? That’s what you keep in mind.

Laurel: Well, thanks for all your wisdom.

Sarah: You’re welcome. It was really nice to meet you both.

Part 2:

Sarah: Welcome back, Laurel and Derek. Thanks for joining again. How have things been since our first coaching call?

Laurel: Yeah. I feel like we gained several really good nuggets that we were able to try. One of them was about my daughter in the mornings—not wanting to get dressed, feeling stuck in the middle and left out. I’ve gotten to stop what I’m doing and pay attention to her. Even this morning, she still had a meltdown, but things went faster by the end compared to me being stubborn and telling her to do it on her own.

Sarah: So you dropped your end of the power struggle.

Laurel: Yeah. And it felt great because I wasn’t frustrated afterward. I could move on right away instead of also blowing up. If we both blow up, it’s bad. But if she’s the only one, she can snap out of it quickly. I can’t as easily, so it usually lingers for me. This way, it was so much better.

We’ve had some challenging parenting moments this week, but looking at them through the lens of making our kids feel worthy and loved helped us respond differently. One thing you said last time—that “the perpetrator needs empathy”—really stuck with me. I always felt like the misbehaving child should feel our wrath to show how serious it was. But we were able to love our kids through a couple of tough situations, and it worked.

Derrick: For me, the biggest takeaway was the “kindling” metaphor. I’ve even shared it with friends. Before, I thought I was being patient, but I was just collecting kindling until I blew up. Now I recognize the kindling and set it down—take a breath, or tell the kids I need a minute. This morning on the way to soccer, I told them I needed a little pity party in the front seat before I could play their game. That helped me calm before reengaging.

Sarah: That’s fantastic. You recognized you needed to calm yourself before jumping back in, instead of pushing through already-annoyed feelings.

Laurel: Yeah. We did have questions moving forward. We had a couple of situations where we knew our kids were lying about something significant. We told them, “We love you, and we need you to tell the truth.” But they denied it for days before finally giving in. How do we encourage truth-telling and open communication?

Sarah: Kids usually lie for three reasons: they’re afraid of getting in trouble, they feel ashamed or embarrassed, or they’re afraid of disappointing you. Sometimes it’s all three. So the focus has to be: we might be unhappy with what you did, but we’ll just work on fixing it. When they do admit the truth, it’s important to say, “I’m so glad you told me.” That helps remove shame.

Natural consequences happen without your involvement. If they take money from your wallet, the natural consequence is that you’re missing money and trust is broken. But adding punishments just teaches them to hide better next time.

Derrick: How do you frame the difference between a consequence and a boundary? Like if they mess up in an environment and we don’t let them back into it for a while—is that a consequence or a boundary?

Sarah: In peaceful parenting, we talk about limits. If they show they’re not ready for a certain freedom, you set a limit to support them—not to punish. A consequence is meant to make them feel bad so they won’t repeat it. A limit is about guidance and support.

The way to tell: check your tone and your intent. If you’re angry and reactive, it will feel punishing even if it’s not meant to be. And if your intent is to make them suffer, that’s a punishment. If your tone is empathetic and your intent is to support expectations, it’s a limit.

Derrick: That’s helpful. Sometimes we beat ourselves up wondering if we’re punishing when we’re just setting limits. Your tone-and-intent framework is a good check.

Sarah: And if you mess up in the moment, you can always walk it back. Say, “I was really angry when I said that. Let’s rethink this.” That models responsibility for when we act out while triggered.

Derrick: That’s good.

Sarah: You mentioned sibling rivalry last time. Did you try the “It’s theirs until they’re done with it” approach?

Derrick: Yes—and it’s like a miracle. It worked especially in the car.

Sarah: That’s great. I know car rides were tricky before.

Laurel: What about mantras to help us remember not to let our kids’ behavior define us as parents—or as people?

Sarah: What you’re talking about is shame. It’s when we feel unworthy because of our kids’ behavior or what others think. We have to separate our worth from our kids’ actions. Even if your child is struggling, you’re still a good, worthy, lovable person.

Laurel: Almost the same thing we say to our kids: “You are worthy and lovable.”

Sarah: Exactly. So when you feel yourself going into a shame spiral, remind yourself: “Even though my child did this thing, I am still worthy and lovable.” Hold both truths together.

Laurel: Yes. That helps. One last question: mornings. School starts in a day, and we worry every morning will be a struggle with Kira. She resists everything—getting dressed, socks, breakfast. Then she’s fine once we’re in the car. How can we help her set her own boundaries about mornings?

Sarah: It sounds like she gets anxious around transitions. She doesn’t do well with being hurried. That anxiety overwhelms her, and she goes into fight mode—pushing back, lashing out.

Laurel: Yes, that’s exactly it.

Sarah: So part of it is adjusting your routine—giving her more time in the morning. But another part is building resilience. The anti-anxiety phrase is: “We can handle this.” Remind her, “Even if it’s not going how you wanted, you can handle it. We can do hard things.” Add in laughter to ease tension.

And maybe accept that for now, you might need to spend 10 minutes helping her get dressed. That’s okay. You can balance it by giving her extra nurturing at other times of the day so she doesn’t seek it as much during rushed mornings.

Derrick: That’s good.

Sarah: Thank you both so much. I’ve loved these conversations.

Derrick: Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah: You’re welcome. It’s been wonderful.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I have a conversation with Devon Kuntzman, an ICF-certified coach and author of the new book Transforming Toddlerhood.

We cover why toddlers are so misunderstood, and how to work with our toddlers by better understanding their needs and development. Tune in to learn better ways to work through car seat struggles, diaper changes, tooth brushing, throwing things, and more!

Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!

We talk about:

7:10 Why do toddlers have such a bad reputation?!
10:00 Contractionary needs of toddlers
11:00 What hard toddler behaviours are totally normal?
13:00 Nuance around “limit setting” and power struggles
19:30 Having unrealistic expectations for our toddlers
24:00 Understanding crying
29:00 Toddlers need for movement and bodily autonomy
30:00 Car seat struggles
31:15 Refusing diaper changes
32:00 Tooth brushing
35:00 Throwing things
38:00 The problems with Time Outs

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player
The Peaceful Parenting Membership
Transforming Toddlerhood: How to Handle Tantrums, End Power Strugglers, and Raise Resilient Kids --- Without Losing your Mind
Devon’s website

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, "Weekend Reflections" and "Weekend Support" - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for a third year). All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Interview transcript:

Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Devon Kuntzman, who is an expert on all things toddler. We discussed why toddlers get a bad rap—why they can be really challenging—and what’s going on with them developmentally. Devon has so much insight into how to understand your toddler better, and therefore how to make life with them easier by knowing how to support them.

We also talked about mysterious toddler behavior, and I asked her the questions I get most from you—what to do in tricky situations like car seats, teeth brushing, diapers, and more. You are going to finish this episode with a deeper understanding of your toddler and a deeper appreciation of these wondrous and sometimes challenging little beings.

Even if you don’t have a toddler anymore, you might find it interesting—as I did—to understand in hindsight exactly why they acted the way they did. And if you don’t have a toddler anymore but you do know someone with a toddler—that’s ages one through four—send this podcast on over to them. I’m sure they’re going to find it really, really helpful. Devon is just wonderful.

Okay, let’s meet Devon.

Sarah: Hey Devon, welcome to the podcast.

Devon: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Sarah: Me too. I’m so excited to talk about your new book that’s coming out. But before we dive into that, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Devon: Yes. So, I am Devon Kuntzman, and I’m an ICF certified coach, toddler expert, and the founder of Transforming Toddlerhood. I’m also a mama to a toddler and now an author with a book coming out October 21st called Transforming Toddlerhood as well.

I really started Transforming Toddlerhood in 2018 to dispel the myth that toddlerhood is terrible. Yes, toddlerhood is very, very challenging developmentally for so many reasons, but it’s also a critical developmental period. If we just go into it white-knuckling it, bracing ourselves for the worst, we actually start to miss the magic of this developmental period and the opportunity to set our kids up for success in the long run.

The first five years of life set the foundation for brain development and social-emotional development for years to come.

Sarah: I love that. And actually, I love the toddler stage. I know a lot of people find it really challenging, and I can see why, but also, as you said, it is really magical. They’re such interesting little creatures, and I just love that stage.

So, your book is coming out October 21st, and we would encourage anyone listening to pre-order it. I was so excited to read your book because, when I was reading it, I was thinking, “You know what this is? It’s like a perfect peaceful parenting primer, except everything is focused on this age group.”

There are a lot of great peaceful parenting books out there, but they don’t focus on this age group. And this age group is so specific. I don’t know if that’s what you were intending to write when you wrote it. If you weren’t intending to, I think that’s what you did.

Devon: Yes. The reason I wrote this book is because we have so many parenting books out there—amazing books that talk about peaceful parenting, respectful parenting, and all of these things. But none of them are truly tailored to the toddler years.

At the same time, I have parents DMing me every day asking me so many different questions, and I can see the desperation of these parents. They’re searching on Instagram, they’re Googling, they’re trying to find the answers to these very real, challenging problems in their lives. And there wasn’t just one place to go to get all of these answers.

That’s why I wrote Transforming Toddlerhood. It’s an all-in-one, comprehensive, easy-to-read guide that truly covers just about every challenge you might have throughout toddlerhood. Whether it’s healthy, developmentally appropriate discipline, being on a different page from your parenting partner, your child whining, struggling with parental preference, or introducing a new sibling—I really cover everything in this book.

I wanted parents to have a place they could go to get quick answers that were trusted, so they didn’t have to search everywhere for them.

Sarah: Yeah, you absolutely did it. You succeeded at your goal. I get lots of questions about toddlers too—in my coaching and in my communities—and every single one of the questions that I get was in the book. That was great.

So, I encourage people to go out and get it. I’m actually going to order a copy for my husband’s cousin and his wife. They have a little girl who’s about 15 or 16 months now, so it’ll be perfect for them.

Devon: Perfect.

Sarah: So, toddlers—as you mentioned before—have a bad rap, right? You know, the “terrible twos,” the “horrible threes,” or whatever people call them. Why do you think that is? And maybe tell us a little bit about what’s going on developmentally. I think those two answers are probably connected.

Devon: I am so excited to answer this question, because this is a question I always ask everyone who comes on my annual summit. And I’m so excited to get to answer it myself.

I really feel that toddlerhood is so challenging for parents because it’s the first time your child is realizing that they’re a separate entity from you. And at the same time, you’re realizing your child is a separate entity from you as well.

The whole point of toddlerhood is for your child to become their own separate individual. And the way they do that is through behaviors that delineate a line between your toddler and yourself. They’re going to say “no.” They’re going to push back. They’re going to have their own agenda.

We start seeing this even as early as nine months old, with a child who doesn’t want to get their diaper changed. Or you have a 12-month-old—you ask them to come over, they laugh and run the other direction. Or you have a 14-month-old who thinks you’re moving too slowly, or doesn’t like what you’re doing, and then they hit you on the head.

It’s really the first time we move out of a purely caregiving role into what I like to call a really active parenting role, where we have to decide how we’re going to respond to these behaviors.

I think the bigger challenge is that we’re looking at these behaviors through a logical lens with fully mature brains. So, we label these behaviors as bad or wrong. But really, all the behaviors that drive us crazy are developmentally appropriate behaviors for toddlers.

Because of that mismatch—between our expectations of what we think is typical and what our toddlers are actually doing—it creates a lot of frustration. It creates fear spiraling: “Are they always going to be this way? Is my child going to grow up to be a bully?” X, Y, Z. All of that makes parenting this age group really, really challenging.

Sarah: Yeah, I was just talking to someone this morning who has a 2-year-old and a new baby—which, of course, as you know, exacerbates the challenges of toddlers when you’re adding to your family.

I have noticed anecdotally that people tend to think two or three are the hardest years, and it almost always comes back to when they had their next child. If they had them two years apart, they found two harder. If they had them three years apart, they found three harder.

This mom was just telling me about some struggles, and I said, “Yeah, your daughter is at that stage where she has her own ideas about things she would like to do or have. And it’s combined with a lack of logic, perspective, and brain development.” It’s like a perfect storm: “I know what I want, but I don’t have any experience in life or brain development to be able to express it in a different way.”

Devon: Yes, exactly. And another challenge that’s really happening in toddlerhood—which comes through in their behavior—is this idea of contradictory needs.

As I was saying, your toddler is trying to become their own person. They want to be independent. They’re developmentally driven to have a sense of control, feel capable, and exert their will. But at the same time, they’re highly reliant on the adults in their life to meet their social and physical needs.

So even though these developmental needs are so strong, they still need you—that safe and secure base—to help meet their emotional and physical needs. Toddlers are constantly trying to balance these opposing needs, and that really comes out in contradictory, challenging behavior that can drive us crazy.

Sarah: Yeah, I love that. I remember that so well—that “I want to do it by myself. No, I want you to do it for me.” The contradictory needs. That’s such a beautiful way to put it.

Devon: Yeah.

Sarah: What is something you hear all the time that you find yourself saying, “Oh, that’s totally normal for toddlers”? What’s something parents don’t know is normal, but you find yourself reassuring them that it is?

Devon: Yes. Basically, the behaviors we as adults really don’t like, that we think are inappropriate. Yes, in our logical, fully mature adult brains, hitting, biting, throwing, kicking, screaming, crying—all of these things—feel wrong.

But if you think about it, babies’ only way of communicating is to cry. Then, as toddlers start to grow, they go through a lot of physical development. They start communicating through their behaviors.

For example, if you have a toddler throwing food from their high chair at 15 or 18 months old, they might be experimenting with cause and effect: “If I drop this food, what happens? Does the dog pick it up? How do my parents respond?” They’re experimenting and exploring, which is very appropriate.

Or take hitting and biting. Toddlers, especially one- and two-year-olds, cannot say, “I don’t like this. I’m feeling frustrated.” So instead, they hit you or bite you.

I just want parents to know: behavior is not good or bad. We have to step away from that dichotomous lens. Behavior is communication. Once we understand that, we can ask: “What skill does my child need to learn to be successful here?” instead of “What punishment do I need to give to make them listen or to teach them a lesson?”

Sarah: Yes—or not only, “What skill?” but also, “What support does my child need to meet my expectation?” Right? Because sometimes the skill’s not going to come for a long time with a toddler. But the support is something you can give them.

Devon: I love that. This comes up a lot—the idea of “My toddler’s not listening to me.” We set the limit, and then we expect our toddlers to just fall in line, follow through, and listen.

But the truth is, we need to ask: “What support does my toddler need to meet this limit I’m setting?” We often think saying the limit is the end of our job, but it’s actually the beginning.

Setting the limit is step one. Then we have to help our kids follow through on that limit—especially the younger they are or the more unmet needs they have in that moment. If they’re tired, hungry, overstimulated—then they’re going to need even more help to follow through.

Sarah: Yes. And I’m going to jump ahead in my list of questions. I was going to ask you about power struggles later, but I want to ask now since you just mentioned limits.

I find parents sometimes get too hung up on limits—not that limits aren’t important, because they are—but they often get too attached to their own sense of what the limit should be.

I love that when you were writing about power struggles, you suggested starting with the question: “What’s the goal here?” I’d love for you to talk about power struggles and limits through that lens. Because, as I mentioned this morning to a parent of a 2-year-old, there’s so much a 2-year-old has no control over in their life. We want to think about how we can be flexible about the rest.

So maybe just talk about your lens of power struggles a little bit, starting with that “What’s the goal here?” I love that.

Devon: Oh my gosh, I have so much to say on this subject.

When we ask ourselves, “What’s the goal here?” the main thing to consider is: are we trying to win? Because if you’re battling your toddler to win, then you’ve probably lost sight of the bigger picture—which is: How do you want to show up as a parent? What relationship are you trying to create? What support are you trying to give your child? What skills do they need to learn?

When we get caught up in trying to win, we’re in our stress response. The more committed we get to winning, the more tightly we get locked in the power struggle. And then everyone’s just on their own emotional roller coaster.

The reality is, it takes two people to be in a power struggle. And if you’re waiting for your toddler to suddenly say, “Oh, just kidding, I’ll do what you want,” you’ll be waiting a long time. Toddlers are developmentally driven to exert their will and be their own person. They’re likely to double down.

And toddlers can be really persistent. So we have to zoom out and think about the bigger picture. Instead of being so attached to one way of doing something, we can pivot in an empowered way.

That might mean moving forward and letting your toddler follow you. Maybe it’s giving them a choice between two things within your boundaries. Maybe it’s saying, “When you brush your teeth (or pick up this toy), then we can go outside (or read a book).”

There are so many different tools we can use to pivot out of power struggles. Because quite frankly, we’re the adults. We have to be the leaders and guides in these moments. Our toddlers aren’t going to suddenly say, “Oh, just kidding, sorry.”

Sarah: Yes. And the other thing I’ve been thinking about a lot lately is, if we’re not modeling flexibility, how are our kids going to learn it? If we can’t be flexible as parents, then how will our kids learn to be flexible?

So often parents say, “My kid is so rigid, they’re not flexible at all.” And then you listen to the parent a little, and it sounds like they’re also being pretty rigid with their child.

I think finding those graceful sidesteps—what you’re talking about—is so important. It’s not about someone winning and someone losing, but about how we can still get to the goal we’re trying to reach.

Devon: Exactly. And this is a very Montessori-aligned thought: we as parents have to create the container, the foundation. But within those boundaries, there are a million ways something can happen and get done.

So, we can give our child freedom within the boundaries. Of course they still need our guidance, but the key is to avoid backing out in a way that says, “Fine, you win.” Instead, we ask: how can we give them a sense of control within our boundaries? That way their developmental need for autonomy is met, while we’re still in charge overall.

Sarah: Okay. Going back to expectations—one thing I read in your book really struck me. You cited research showing that half of parents believe kids are capable of self-control and milestones earlier than they actually are.

I find that too—parents’ expectations are often way too high for the age their child is, or for where they are developmentally.

So, how do you know if your expectations are out of whack? And what happens—what are the negative things that can happen—when they are?

Devon: I always say we typically underestimate our child’s physical abilities and overestimate their social-emotional capabilities and impulse control.

There’s a lot of research and polls showing this is the case. And when we hold unrealistic expectations, we get really frustrated, because we think our toddler is being “bad,” doing something they shouldn’t be doing developmentally.

Then we turn it inward: “I must be doing a bad job. I’m messing up.”

The best way to know if your expectations are appropriate is by looking at your child’s behavior over time—over several days or a week. What’s really happening in those moments? If you see a consistent pattern, you can start to say, “Okay, maybe I’m asking too much of my child.”

That doesn’t mean you just throw the expectation out the window and say, “Too bad, I’ll try again next year.” It means they need more support.

So you scaffold the skill. For example, something like getting dressed takes a lot of planning and coordination. It’s a skill that needs to be built over time. We need to start transferring those skills to our children—with our support.

So when your expectations are too big, you don’t throw them out completely. You ask: how can I support my child to get where I need them to be?

Sarah: Yeah. I always talk about when there’s the gap between your expectations and the reality, a lot of conventional parenting is like, “Okay, well what threat or consequence do I need to close that gap?” But I always think about just like, what support do we need to close the gap between the expectations and reality?

And of course, sometimes I think you do—there is a place for throwing expectations out the window. Because sometimes they’re so far off that it’s better to let go of the expectation than to try to get your kid to do it.

Or, you know, I think resources can go up and down. One day your kid might be able to do something, and the next day their resources might be a lot lower and they can’t manage. We have to be flexible.

Devon: For the parent too. There are going to be days when we’re more resourced, and days when we didn’t sleep well. Maybe our toddler was up at 2:00 AM and we’re tired. There are days when we just feel like there’s too much to do and not enough time. Days when we have our own feelings, emotions, and needs that need attention, and there’s not a lot of space for that.

That’s where we really just need to have compassion for ourselves and for our toddlers, and really give each other the benefit of the doubt—knowing that we’re doing the best that we can. Then we can start working from that place: right now, we’re doing the best we can in this moment. What’s the next step to getting where we need to be?

I didn’t mention this in the book, but something I talk about a lot with my private clients is that oftentimes we want to jump from A to Z. And that’s a really big leap, right? We want to leap across the Grand Canyon, when really what we want to do is step across on stepping stones. Move from A to B, B to C, C to D. That’s how we eventually get to where we need to be.

This is true across the board when we’re thinking about expectations, skills, and things of that nature. So when we don’t try to do it all at once, we’re going to have more realistic expectations and we’re going to be less frustrated.

Sarah: Yeah.

Devon: That makes so much sense.

Sarah: I love also that you really, in the book, normalize toddler behavior. You mentioned before, throwing—and at one point, as I was reading your book, I wondered, “I wonder if she’s going to talk about play schemas.” And then you had the section on play schemas.

So much of what toddlers do, parents just don’t know is normal. Like you were talking about throwing food off the highchair. I always remind parents of the trajectory schema—how does the food move through space, or what happens when I drop this, and learning about gravity.

Speaking of normalizing, one of the things that I loved in your book was when you talked about avoiding positive dismissiveness. I loved how you addressed that—when parents say that kids are crying for no reason. Can you talk about that a little bit, what to avoid, and what to do instead?

Devon: Yeah. I decided to dedicate a chapter to crying because crying is such an important communication tool for kids. Beyond that, research shows that crying is actually beneficial to our bodies. It helps release hormones that make us feel better.

So crying serves a lot of purposes. When we look at crying as “fake crying” or “crying for no reason,” it really shortchanges a normal biological process, a normal way of communication for young children. It also dismisses a child’s needs.

Now, I will tell you, it is hard to hear your child cry. It is so hard. I had a baby that cried for hours on end—I’m talking five-plus hours a day. So I’ve heard my fair share of crying, probably enough for ten lifetimes.

It’s really hard for me, even now with my toddler, to hear him cry. But knowing that you’re not a bad parent and there’s nothing wrong if your child is crying—that this is actually an emotional release—is super helpful.

We don’t want our kids to shove it down. Instead of saying, “You’re fine, you’re fine”—which usually comes from a good place, because we just want our kids to feel better—we can say things like, “That must have been hard,” or, “That was unexpected,” or, “Oh, you fell down and scraped your knee. I’m sorry that happened.”

This creates emotional connection and helps build emotional resilience.

Sarah: I love that. Listeners to this podcast will have heard me talk a lot about emptying the emotional backpack. That’s what you’re talking about too—crying might not even be about the thing that just happened. It might just be how they’re releasing pent-up stresses, tensions, and big feelings they’ve been carrying around.

And the second part of what you’re talking about is really empathy, right? It’s so hard because we don’t always get why something is so upsetting—like you cut the sandwich wrong, or the muffin is broken in half and they want it whole.

But I always tell parents, it’s appropriate for little kids to have big feelings about small things. That’s their life perspective right now. They don’t have big adult problems like we do; they just have toddler problems. And to them, those are just as big.

Devon: Yeah. And I think it also really stems from this idea of a lack of control. A lot of crying isn’t really about the thing that happened—it’s just the release of all the pent-up stuff, and that was the last straw.

But why that becomes the last straw—like cutting the sandwich wrong or peeling the banana when they didn’t want you to—is because toddlers have so little control over their lives. Yet this is the stage where they’re craving control so badly, as they’re differentiating themselves and becoming their own person.

So that little thing, like peeling the banana when they didn’t want you to, just reinforces the lack of control they feel—and that’s what sends them over the edge.

Sarah: That makes so much sense. I just have so much compassion and empathy for toddlers. I think toddlerhood and middle school are the hardest times of childhood.

Okay, let’s shift into some tips, because I’m going to use you to ask some of the questions I get all the time. These have been the questions on repeat for the last 12 years I’ve been doing this.

Here’s what I hear:

My kid won’t get in the car seat—or they cry when they’re in the car seat.

They don’t want their diapers changed, even if it’s really wet or dirty.

They don’t want me to brush their teeth.

They won’t stop throwing things.

So if you want to lump some of those together, go for it—or take them one at a time. I’d love to hear your advice on those situations.

Devon: Absolutely. Most of these have to do with the toddler’s developmental drive to experiment and explore—and that happens through movement. Couple that with bodily autonomy: kids know inherently that they are in charge of their bodies.

You can’t force a child to eat, use the bathroom, or fall asleep. They are 100% in control of their bodies. That idea—that control is an illusion—is really tough for toddler parents to reckon with. But toddlers are great at teaching us this.

The faster we accept that control is an illusion, and that instead we are partners who have to work with our children, the better things will go. At the same time, we are the adults, and we are in charge. Sometimes we do have to cross a child’s bodily autonomy to keep them safe and healthy.

So let’s go through the examples.

Car seats: Toddlers don’t like being restricted—in a high chair, stroller, or car seat. Every toddler will push against this at some point. It can last for a while and come in phases.

Giving your child a sense of control helps: let them climb in, let them choose whether you buckle them or they do it, let them clip the chest strap. Play a silly song as a celebration when they’re in. Keep special toys in the car that they only get to play with there.

Also, start earlier than you think you need to, so you’re not rushing. But in the end, sometimes we do have to keep them safe by buckling them in. If we go against their autonomy, we need to talk them through what’s happening, support their emotions, and try again next time.

Diaper changes: When toddlers start refusing diaper changes, it means they’re ready for something new. They want to move from a passive bystander to an active participant in their toileting journey.

The first step is to change them standing up in the bathroom. Teach them how to push down their pants, undo the diaper tabs, or lean forward so you can wipe them. Yes, it’s harder to clean them up this way, but it gives them control.

Tooth brushing: Toddlers want control here too. I recommend three toothbrushes—one for each of their hands and one for you.

Sarah: I remember letting my kids brush my teeth with my toothbrush while I brushed theirs.

Devon: Exactly! That’s perfect. Another tip: start brushing your own teeth in front of them from a young age. Don’t put pressure on them; let them get interested in what you’re doing.

If it’s become a big power struggle, change up the environment. We often brush my son’s teeth in his bedroom, with his head in my lap—it’s actually easier that way. Change of scenery can make a big difference.

Sarah: I’ll share a tip that worked with my kids—we made up a story about “Mr. Dirt” who lived in their mouths, and every night we brushed him out. They loved hearing about his adventures while we brushed.

Devon: I love that. That’s playfulness—and playfulness creates connection, which creates cooperation. Play is the language of toddlerhood. The more we can tap into that, the better things go.

Sarah: Yes! I’m surprised we got this far without specifically calling out playfulness—it’s the number one tool in the toolbox for working with toddlers.

Devon: Exactly. Playfulness, role play, brushing a doll’s teeth first, or letting your child brush yours—it all helps toddlers feel powerful and understood.

Sarah: Okay, the last challenge: throwing things. I talked to a young couple who wanted to make a “no throwing” rule in their house. I told them I didn’t think that would work, since it’s such a developmental need. How do you manage throwing when it could be unsafe or destructive?

Devon: Great question. I talk about this in my book when I explain the recipe for effective discipline: connection, limits, and teaching skills.

First, get curious about what’s driving the behavior—throwing can mean so many things. Then, set clear limits: it’s not okay to throw breakables or throw at people. Finally, teach skills and alternatives.

Sometimes you can’t expect a two-year-old to regulate in the heat of the moment, so give them safe alternatives: a basket of balled-up socks, or paper they can throw into a laundry basket. This meets the need within your boundaries, while you also work on calming skills in calmer moments.

Sarah: That’s so helpful. Now, can you talk about why you don’t recommend timeouts, and why you prefer time-ins instead?

Devon: Yes. Timeouts are usually used as punishment—to teach a lesson or stop a behavior. But that’s shortsighted. Behavior is communication, and if we don’t understand what it’s telling us, it will keep popping up—like a game of whack-a-mole.

Also, kids often escalate in timeout, because they’re being cut off from their safe base—you. They need you to help them calm down.

That’s why I recommend time-ins instead. With time-ins, you’re still upholding limits and keeping everyone safe, but you’re staying with your child, supporting them, and helping them regulate. This builds long-term skills and emotional resilience.

Sarah: Love that. Thank you so much for coming on and for writing this book. I really encourage anyone who is a toddler parent—or who knows one—to pre-order your book. It’s a fantastic addition to the peaceful parenting world, and so specific to toddler needs and development.

Before I let you go, here’s the question I ask all my guests: If you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what advice would you give?

Devon: Gosh. I waited a long time to have a child, and I had a vision of how I wanted things to go. But I had a child with a lot of extra needs, and the things I thought would happen didn’t. So I would tell myself to loosen my expectations, be grateful for the moments I have, and be flexible in how needs get met.

Sarah: I love that. Perfect advice for parents of toddlers especially. Thanks so much, Devon.

Devon: Thank you! You can find me on Instagram at @transformingtoddlerhood, or on my website, transformingtoddlerhood.com/book for preorder info and bonuses.

Sarah: We’ll put the link in the show notes. Your book is comprehensive and very readable—even for me, far past the toddler years. Great job, Devon.

Devon: Thank you. That was my whole goal.

Thanks for reading Reimagine Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet Substack! This post is public so feel free to share it.

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in November for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I have a conversation with Zach Brittle, a Licensed Mental Health Counselor (LMHC) and couple’s therapist certified in both Gottman Method Couple’s Therapy and Relational Life Therapy.

We focus on the two big areas that partners struggle with: what do you do when you disagree about parenting, and what do you do when one parent is highly reactive.

We talk about:

8:00 Sorting through different levels of disagreements between partners

11:00 Start by finding what you agree about/values/parenting goals

18:00 Explaining “Relational Life Therapy”

21:00 How “repair” is the goal in peaceful families

27:00 How to go into triggering conversations with our partners

30:00 Take care of yourself, so you can show up for your partner and kids

31:00 When one parent is more reactive than the other

36:00 What do you do if your partner won’t change?

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Sarah’s podcast about limits and boundaries and the issues with them

Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player

The Peaceful Parenting Membership

Reimagining Limits (and more) in Peaceful Parenting

Zach’s podcast Marriage Therapy Radio

Zach’s private practice

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram

Facebook Group

YouTube

Website

Join us on Substack

Newsletter

Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I have a conversation with Desireé B. Stephens about her 10 conscious steps to talking to kids about global crisis.

**If you’d like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice. You can find the private feed URL for the ad-free version in your Substack account settings under “manage subscription”.

Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!

We talk about:

7:30 What inspired Desiree to write about talking to kids about global crisis
9:50 1- Start with consent not control
12:30 How to rest, reset, resist
15:00 2- Ask, don’t assume
16:34 3- Name the reality, not the details
20:24 4- Honour their hidden hives
24:00 5- Let them see your grief with boundaries
28:00 6- Link emotions to actionable compassion
31:00 7- Revisit, don’t one and done
35:00 8- Build their critical consciousness
39:00 9- Co-creating boundaries for when it’s too much
42:00 10- Root it all in relationship, not rhetoric

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Screen Free Audio Book Player https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/yoto
The Peaceful Parenting Membership https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership
Concious Parenting for Social Justice Collective https://parentingdecolonized.com/join-the-collective/
IG post: Conscious Steps to Talking with Kids about Global Crisis with Desiree B Stephens
https://desireebstephens.bio/digitalproducts

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, "Weekend Reflections" and "Weekend Support" - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for a third year). All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

Interview Transcript: Talking with Kids about Global Crisis with Desireé B. Stephens: Episode 205

Sarah: Today's guest is Desiree B. Stephens, and we are going to be talking about 10 Conscious Steps to Talking with Kids About Global Crisis. With everything that's going on in the world right now, it's so important to know how to effectively talk to our kids about what's happening and to help them become social change-makers, rather than wanting to turn away from everything scary.

I loved this conversation with Desiree. I was inspired by her and the work that she does, and I thought it would be a great overlap to have her come on and talk to us about this topic.

On her Instagram, she asks the question: Ever wonder how decolonization and whole self-healing can transform our world? She and I would both agree that adding conscious parenting—or peaceful parenting—to that is really important. It's one way we are changing the world. Slowly, yes, but still changing the world.

Hey Desiree, welcome to the podcast.

Desiree: Hello. How are you, Sarah?

Sarah: Good. I'm so glad! We’ve crossed paths a couple of times, but we've never really sat down to talk. I’m so glad to have this opportunity.

Desiree: I am as well.

Sarah: So, tell us about who you are and what you do.

Desiree: Okay. Well, my name is Desiree B. Stephens, and I used to open up on TikTok and say, I pathologize whiteness as a system. What I do is believe in dismantling systems through somatic and trauma-informed practices and education. We work on removing shame spirals and touching on the root of the oppression that intersects us all.

Sarah: Awesome. I found you—well, I knew you from Yolanda Williams—but I also came across an article you wrote on Substack that someone forwarded to me. That’s what we’re going to be talking about today.

But I was also looking at your Substack, and you write about everything from parenting to history, decolonization, and politics. You cover a lot of really interesting topics. I encourage everyone to check it out—we’ll link it in the show notes.

The article that really piqued my interest was titled 10 Conscious Steps to Talking with Kids About Global Crisis. This is something I get asked about a lot, and honestly, I’ve never felt like I had great answers. Now you do! So I’m excited to hear about your steps. I think conscious parents are really struggling with this right now. I know I am, both personally and as a professional.

My kids are older, so they have a little more understanding—not that it makes it easier, but at least they can use logic a little bit more. Whereas little kids are like, but why?

You opened your article with the line: The world is burning and our children are absorbing the smoke. How do we talk to them about war, injustice, genocide, climate collapse, and economic fear? Just a few light dinner table topics, right?

So what inspired you to write this? And then let’s get into your ten steps.

Desiree: What inspired me was simply that I am a conscious parent. I think we’ve all traversed different parenting styles over the years. I’ve been parenting since I was 17 years old. My youngest just started first grade, and over the years I’ve always had conversations with my children about what’s happening in the world.

I think where parents struggle is that it’s innate to want to protect our children. Protection often looks like insulation. But in this current climate—having parented through the ‘90s and now parenting kids who have access to the entire world—it doesn’t matter if we talk about it or not. They’re going to find out. They can get on TikTok, and parental controls don’t stop that.

So I asked myself: how can I do this in a trauma-informed way? How can I honor their bodies? Because, like you said, we can’t logic our way through colonization, genocide, starving people, or climate collapse. None of it makes sense.

What we can do is trust what our kids are feeling, what they’re going through, and what they’re hearing from friends. So I began sitting down with them and asking: What did you hear about today? How did that make you feel? Where did that show up in your body?

Our bodies tell us something. If they say, “My tummy hurt,” that’s anxiety. For example, if a child hears about a school shooting, then suddenly doesn’t want to eat and complains of a stomach ache, they’re not sick—they’re anxious. I can’t tell them, You’re safe, there’s a security guard at school. That doesn’t erase their fear.

So the question is: how do we process those feelings and help them engage in social justice within a framework that makes sense to them—usually, the home?

Sarah: That’s such a good point—that none of it makes sense, and that the fear is real. I love that one of your steps is asking them what they already know. But before that, you have a step that I think is so important: start with consent, not control. Can you talk about that?

Desiree: I believe in consent in all things. We often talk about consent in the context of sex—like, don’t touch me here, that’s my no-no square. But consent is much broader. A touch on the shoulder could be the lead-in to inappropriate behavior. Most children who are harmed are hurt by someone they know, who has built trust.

So for me, consent extends to all things—including conversations. That ties into the second step, which is: What have you heard? But it begins with consent: Would you like to talk about this today? How are you feeling? Do you have questions?

It lets them lead and make a choice. Because sometimes, even I don’t want to talk about it. Sometimes I just want to eat dinner or relax, not think about the world burning. And if I feel that way, surely they do too.

Sarah: You know what I love about that? I think of my oldest child, who’s 24 now. From day one, he carried this existential angst. He cares so deeply about everything we’re talking about, but he’s always had a hard time putting it down.

As he was growing up, I kept saying, It’s amazing that you care so deeply and you go to protests, but you don’t have to carry the weight of the world on your shoulders. That’s such an important lesson—and it’s embedded in your idea of starting with consent.

Desiree: Exactly. Right now, I’m in what I call a season of rest, reset, resist. On my Substack, I’ve been writing lessons on these themes: two on resting, two on resetting, and two on resisting.

There’s no way this work can be sustainable if we live in constant crisis. If we only focus on the terror, we lose the joy. But joy and rest are also acts of resistance. They are resilience.

For example, in my work on decolonization, I remind people that these systems have existed for thousands of years. And yet—we’re still here. That should bring joy. It’s proof of resilience.

White-bodied people who are new to anti-racism work or activism often burn out quickly. They go to every march, every meeting, until they’re exhausted. And I ask: When are you just going to take a walk? When are you going to gather with friends and celebrate?

This doesn’t have to feel like an emergency all the time. That sense of urgency is one of the pillars of supremacy culture. Not everything is urgent. We’re still here.

Sarah: Yeah.

Desiree: And that’s why it’s so important to balance. Otherwise, kids end up feeling crushed under the weight of global crisis, on top of their own developmental changes. Sometimes the best response is: Okay, baby, breathe.

Sarah: Yes. And so, by starting with consent, you give them the choice to say, Tonight I’m just going to play video games, even if there was a school lockdown earlier that day.

Desiree: Exactly. That’s fine. Because later is coming. These conversations are not going away.

Activism has to be sustainable. You have to know your capacity. Not everyone can march. Some people write emails. Some people color with their kids and talk about it during that time. That’s valid too.

Sarah: I love that.

Desiree: Coloring with your kids, reading children around the world books, talking about culture—these are beautiful, simple ways to weave in social justice. It doesn’t have to be violent or traumatizing.

Sarah: Yes—because if you traumatize people, they shut down. And then nothing gets done.

So, your second step is ask, don’t assume. Ask them what they’ve heard, what they know, and how they feel. And your third step is name the reality, not the details. Tell us about that.

Desiree: This changes with age. I have children from adulthood down to six years old. So, for example, when my kids ask about expensive sneakers, I explain: They cost $3 to make, using child labor. That’s why I won’t pay $300 for them.

That’s naming the reality—without overwhelming them with traumatic details. Similarly, with Gaza, I don’t need to show my kids graphic images of starving babies. That’s traumatizing. The reality is enough: This is happening. People are suffering.

Children don’t need trauma dumps. We can speak clearly without overwhelming them. For a younger child, it could be as simple as: Some leaders are hurting people, and some people are standing up to stop it.

Sarah: Right. And you use examples at home too, like play-fighting among siblings. One child steps in and says, That’s too rough. That’s social justice on a small scale.

Desiree: Exactly. Small examples at home translate to global understanding. We can show kids that standing up for others matters. And then we help them find their own capacity—whether it’s writing letters, talking about it, or making a video.

Sarah: Yes. And if you just pour out trauma, kids will shut down.

Desiree: Exactly.

Sarah: So step four is honor their hidden hives. What does that mean?

Desiree: Kids have their own communities, their own secret lives. Online especially, they connect globally—with Palestinian friends, Jewish friends, Congolese friends, kids in red states, kids with MAGA parents. Their reach is global in a way ours never was.

So, honoring their hidden hives means respecting that their conversations matter. Ask: What are you and your friends talking about? What do they think? Don’t dismiss them as “just kids.” They often understand more than we do.

Sarah: Yes! I remember being dismissed by adults as a child, and how frustrating that felt. I had real thoughts and opinions. That’s a kind of adult-centrism, and I know that’s a theme in your work.

Desiree: Exactly. Center kids in their own lives. What matters to them matters—just like what matters to us in our friendships.

Sarah: Okay, now step five: Let them see your grief, with boundaries. This is a hard one for me. I cry easily when talking about these topics, but I don’t want to traumatize my kids.

Desiree: But why do we think crying is traumatizing?

Sarah: I guess I worry that if they see me overwhelmed, they’ll feel overwhelmed too.

Desiree: The opposite can also happen. If you never let them see you grieve, they may feel they have to hold it in as well.

Our parents and grandparents grew up in eras of war, enslavement, displacement. They learned to “button it up” and carry on. They raised us to believe there’s “no crying in baseball.”

But my parenting journey has been about humanizing myself. I don’t want my kids to only realize I’m human after I die. If they see me cry about a world in crisis, that teaches them it’s okay to feel deeply too.

Now, the boundary is important—we don’t completely fall apart in front of them. They still need to feel safe. If a parent collapses emotionally, kids may feel like they have to take care of the parent. That’s the line we don’t want to cross.

Sarah: Yes—that’s exactly what I was worried about.

Desiree: Right. So we want to find that balance of communal care. We take care of each other here, right? Let’s set aside a moment for grief. How are you feeling? What are you grieving today?

What made you feel sad? What made you feel displaced? What made you feel unheard, unseen, unloved? Let’s get into that. Let’s feel that for a moment. And then — what could feel different? What could we all do better as a community?

This made me feel bad when you said that. I share with my kids: “When you don’t do X, Y, and Z, it makes me feel like you don’t care about what I think. And that hurts me.” Right? I don’t want to be a parent who just seems angry. I want to be clear that I’m hurt. That hurt my feelings.

And I love you so much, I care about you so much, that your feelings matter to me — but I also want to matter to you. And that, for me, is communal care.

Sarah: You mentioned a couple of sentences back about “what can we do,” which links nicely into your next step: link emotions to actionable compassion.

There’s that Mr. Rogers quote about whenever anything bad is happening, look for the helpers. And research shows that when you have big emotions without feeling like you can do anything, that’s when kids (and adults) turn cynical.

So maybe you could give us a couple of examples. You already mentioned going to marches and emailing. But what are some other things you’ve done with your kids, or that you’ve seen other people do with their kids, that connect emotions to actionable compassion?

Desiree: Well, again, it all ties together. What’s your capacity? What are you able to do that’s long-term and sustainable?

When the George Floyd protests were happening, my eldest was outside. She said, “Absolutely not. I’m not going to march, I’m not going to take risks.” I said, “Okay, but how do you feel? Do you feel like you’re making a difference?”

She started going out with water and sandwiches. That turned into a nonprofit — Feed the Revolution. Donations poured in. We even had to get a storage unit for all the water and dry goods. That’s linking compassion and passion with actionable steps. It was something she could do safely.

And that’s how you bring in community care. Other people couldn’t march, but they could bring food, bring water, or look for the helper.

With kids, it might look different. If they have a Discord group, maybe they can have a conversation once a week: What are your thoughts on this? How do you feel? That’s activism too. Sharing, course correcting, letting people know, “Hey, that was harmful. Can we do better?”

So: What are you feeling? What do you have the capacity for? What’s sustainable? And what can we do?

Sarah: And you mentioned even some quiet things, like coloring with your kids, learning about kids around the world, lighting a candle at home, making art for peace, or helping someone locally. Even helping actions that aren’t tied to a “cause,” but are just about kindness.

Desiree: But that is the issue, right? Because then you start raising helpers.

The other day, we had some leftover curry. My son Kira said, “I don’t want any more… but can we box it up and give it to somebody?” I said, “I love that. Great. Let’s microwave some rice, put it in a container, and go outside to share it.”

So now he’s learning about not wasting food, about climate collapse, about taking care of community. And people often think it has to be big. “Oh, you need to feed 50 people.” But you fed one. That matters.

Sarah: Even if it’s just your next-door neighbor who doesn’t cook much — bring them some food.

Desiree: Or the burned-out parent who’s doing all the caretaking. How nice would it be to say, “Hey, I got dinner for you. I know you’ve already fed your kids. Let someone take care of you.”

That shows your children you can make a difference without it having to be huge. The fatigue comes from feeling like we need to combat everything at once. That’s overwhelming, and overwhelming leads to burnout.

Sarah: Right.

Desiree: Liberation isn’t one-and-done. It isn’t a single conversation. It’s a practice, a relationship, a rhythm. You’re modeling that the truth takes time, and we don’t have to rush.

Sarah: I love that. It’s like conversations about sex, right? You don’t have one talk and then you’re done. You keep talking as kids grow and change.

Desiree: Exactly. When I talk about liberation work and decolonization, it’s about creating a culture shift. None of us like to feel lectured to. Making it conversational changes everything. It becomes about solution-finding: there’s a problem, what’s the solution, what are the steps?

That teaches kids that even if a problem can’t be completely eradicated, we can do something. Harm reduction matters. How can we create less harm and do more good?

Sarah: And it leaves space for thought and choice. For example, my daughter’s iPhone screen broke. She wondered if she should just buy a new phone. I told her, “I’m not going to judge you, but my value is: fix what’s still good.” It might not be the most practical or cheapest option, but it feels better ethically.

So we talked. And then she made her own decision.

Desiree: Yes, exactly. It’s harm reduction again. And you gave her the choice — you didn’t say, “Absolutely not.”

Sarah: Right.

Desiree: That’s powerful.

Sarah: Okay, so your next step is build their critical consciousness. This means inviting them to go deeper — asking questions like, “Who benefits from this system? What would fairness look like? What do you wish adults would do differently?”

Desiree: Yes. The safest place to practice that questioning is at home. But that’s hard in a hierarchical society.

Sarah: Right, you’re like, “Question other people, not me!” (laughs)

Desiree: Exactly. But raising reflective rebels — kids who can think critically, even with us — is essential.

We even did this around bedtime. My kids didn’t want a set bedtime. I explained why rest matters. Then we co-created a boundary: “Okay, stay up as late as you want, but you have to get up happily, on time, and not be dysregulated at school.”

It lasted less than two weeks! They realized for themselves that lack of sleep doesn’t work. That’s better than me saying “Because I said so.” They learned through experience.

Sarah: That’s such a good example of co-creating boundaries. What does that look like in the context of activism and social justice?

Desiree: It’s about recognizing reality. Not everyone is open to these conversations, especially because they’re kids, and also because they’re Black and neurodiverse. They need to know when to call me in, and when to stand firm with a respectful “no.”

For example, my kids don’t do homework. I don’t want them indoctrinated into an 80-hour work week. They come home to rest, play, and have a balanced life. That’s our boundary.

Sarah: Yes, that’s so good.

Desiree: And finally, root it all in relationship, not rhetoric. If I don’t trust you, I won’t have conversations with you. Punitive parenting “works,” but only out of fear. The opposite of fear is radical love.

Our kids need us to see them as human beings and build real relationships with them. That includes repair when we mess up. Restoration is key.

Sarah: Yes.

Desiree: Parenting is inherently hierarchical, and that creates a power imbalance. It can be abusive if we’re not conscious of that. So our goal is to shift from power over to power with. That’s how we raise kids who believe in communal power — and who grow up ready to change the world.

Sarah: I love that. That’s a hopeful place to stop. Thank you so much.

Desiree: Thank you.

Sarah: One last question I ask all my guests: if you could go back to your younger parent self, what advice would you give?

Desiree: Parent the child in front of you. That’s the best advice I ever got. Don’t parent from your own trauma.

Sarah: Beautiful. And where can people find you?

Desiree: My Substack is desireebstephens.com

— that’s Stephens with a PH. I also co-host Parenting Decolonized with Yolanda, and we run a parenting support group. I’ll share those links.

Sarah: Perfect. We’ll put all of that in the show notes. Thank you again.

Desiree: Thank you.

Sarah: We’re all out here trying to change the world. Slowly, but sustainably.

Desiree: Absolutely.

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, "Weekend Reflections" and "Weekend Support" - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in November for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, is a conversation with Dr. Sheryl Gonzalez Ziegler, a psychologist and the author of the new book The Crucial Years, the Essential Guide to Mental Health and Modern Puberty In Middle Childhood. We cover how to normalize and celebrate puberty, how to teach moderation with screens, and red/yellow flags of disordered eating in middle childhood.

We talk about:

10:45 Why we need to talk to children about puberty in middle childhood
12:00 Historical context- how the timing of puberty has changed
16:00 Red parties and celebrating/normalizing puberty
29:00 Normalizing having conversations about tough topics in age-appropriate ways before kids ask questions
35:00 What you can do to teach your kids moderation with screens and technology
43:00 Making a small pod with other families who are delaying smartphones
46:33 Signs that kids are engaging in disordered eating in middle childhood

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Yoto Player- non-screen audiobook player
Dr. Sheryl Ziegler’s book The Crucial Years, the Essential Guide to Mental Health and Modern Puberty In Middle Childhood
Erin Loechner’s book The Opt-Out Family, how to Give Your Kids What Technology Can't

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, is a conversation with Rebecca Minor, a gender specialist who works with queer and trans youth and their families. We discuss the cost of not affirming kids’ identities, how we can raise our kids in an affirming environment, and how we can support and advocate for LGBTQ+ kids out in the world!

We talk about:

4:40 Statistics for kids who don’t have loved ones affirming their identities
8:45 How can we raise kids in an affirming environment, before we know their identity?
13:07 How to advocate for your LGBTQ+ child
17:40 How to handle unsupportive people in your life (family, friends, etc.)
21:38 How to handle the hostile environment against LGBTQ+ people and families
25:30 Take your kids to family friendly PRYDE events!

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Dealing with Non-Affirming Family Members:
PFLAG’s guide for families: https://pflag.org/resource/guide-to-being-a-supportive-parent/
Gender Spectrum’s resources for caregivers: https://genderspectrum.org/articles/family-resources
Rebecca’s blog: www.genderspecialist.com/blog
Who to Call, Write, or Donate To:
Trans Youth Emergency Fund: https://southernequality.org/tyep/
Transgender Law Center: https://transgenderlawcenter.org
ACLU Action: https://www.aclu.org/action or https://www.aclu.org/writing-your-elected-representatives
Trans Lifeline: https://translifeline.org
Raising Trans Kids: What to Expect When you Weren’t Expecting This https://amzn.to/4e0XWT1
Organizations for people of faith who are supporting LGBTQ+ kids:
The Real Mama Bears https://www.realmamabears.org/
Free Mom Hugs https://freemomhugscanada.ca/
Mama Dragons https://www.mamadragons.org/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Corey and I cover eight different times when parents tend to talk too much to their kids! We discuss times when you can make minor tweaks such as when kids are engrossed in play or when we are giving kids directions. As well as major changes we can make such as not talking at all when kids are completely dysregulated or upset. 1, 2, 3, STOP TALKING!

We talk about:

· 2:20 Stop talking when kids are engrossed in play

· 4:17 We don’t have to make it a teachable moment

· 7:52 Giving unnecessary directions to our kids

· 10:33 Problems with praise

· 13:00 The Zone of Regulation as a guide for when and when not to talk

· 24:00 Over explaining ourselves when setting limits

· 28:00 Avoiding safety chatter

· 30:45 Stop talking when kids have a problem

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

· Coaching with Sarah or Corey

· Our Peaceful Parenting Membership

· Podcast about not making it a teachable moment

· https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/five-reasons-stop-saying-good-job/

· Podcast about cultivating nonchalance

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with journalist Melinda Wenner Moyer about her new book Hello, cruel World Science-Based Strategies for Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying Times. This is Melinda’s second time on the podcast, and this time we cover what the research says about teaching kids self-compassion, managing tech use, preventing addiction, achievement culture, and more!

We talk about:

5:00 Helping kids learn self-compassion
9:30 The simple themes that keep coming up to help our kids in multiple domains
11:45 How the research about tech use surprised Melinda
15:00 Communication is the most important part of managing screens
19:39 What the research says about preventing addiction and substance use
29:30 Sneaky ways we pressure our kids to achieve
36:20 Teaching Kids media literacy

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Hello, cruel World Science-Based Strategies for Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying Times
How to Raise Kids Who Aren’t Assholes
https://www.melindawennermoyer.com/
https://melindawmoyer.substack.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a coaching call with Charlotte who has a 7-year-old, 4-year-old, and 3-year-old. We had an interesting conversation about when we are giving too much empathy to sensitive kids and all the nuance around having a more nonchalant attitude to big feelings. We also discussed self regulation challenges and how to set limits with little kids.

We talk about:

8:30 When deep breathing isn’t enough to calm you down
13:30 Why you have to be there to enforce a limit with little kids
16:20 What is “discipline”?
19:00 Managing Aggressive Tantrums
23:00 Having a nonchalant attitude to big feelings
36:00 Getting playful when a child is being aggressive
41:00 Getting kids thinking brain back online
46:00 Checking back in after Charlotte tries Sarah’s suggestions
47:00 When you are all out of patience
56:30 Finding time for one-on-one time
58:00 No one has to be a perfect parent

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Coaching with Sarah or Corey
Our Peaceful Parenting Membership

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Dr. Gila who is a psychologist, neuropsychologist, and peaceful parenting coach that specializes in supporting single parents. We discuss the unique challenges and blessings of being a single parent, as well as how being a single parent amplifies many aspects of the parental experience. We also cover encouraging research about attachment and how to let go of perfectionism.

We talk about:

6:00 What does the research say about being a single parent?
9:00 Why we should not chase being “perfect”
13:00 Fears, anxieties, and grief single parents experience
14:35 Logistical challenges of being a single parent
16:55 Strategies to manage stress as a single parent
18:23 “Sink metaphor” for self regulation strategies
24:00 The importance and challenge of finding community
32:47 The special relationship you can have with your kids as a single parent

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

https://www.drgilaparenting.com/
Facebook Group: Single-Parenting with Connection, NOT Perfection, with Dr. Gila

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Erin Loechner, author of the book The Opt-Out Family, How to Give Your Kids What Technology Can't. We discuss how to go about limiting technology in your homes, how to deal with pushback from your kids, and all of the benefits.

We talk about:

3:25 What is an Opt-Out Family with Technology?
7:35 Erin’s journey from being an influencer to opting out of technology
10:50 Pushback from kids when opting out
14:26 When parent’s want kids to have phones for safety reasons
17:40 How to deal when kids are pressuring them for technology
21:00 Helping kids feel socially connected when you opt out

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Erin Loechner’s book The Opt-Out Family, how to Give Your Kids What Technology Can't
https://www.optoutfamily.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Alfie Kohn, the author of 14 books including Unconditional Parenting and The Myth of the Spoiled Child. The work of Alfie Kohn has been one of the biggest influences on how I parent and why I have dedicated my career to being a Peaceful Parenting Coach. We discuss why people have always thought parents are too permissive, the nuance involved in “working with” our kids, and why we need to raise reflective rebels who question what they are told.

We talk about:

7:00 Why people think we are “too soft” and permissive with kids
12:00 How black and white thinking gets in the way of peaceful parenting
15:37 “Working with” parenting vs. intensive or helicopter parenting
22:00 Why some kids need more parental support
24:00 Why we need to be realistic and raise “reflective rebels”

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

The Myth of the Spoiled Child
Unconditional Parenting

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a coaching call with Victoria and Alex who have an 8-year-old daughter. Listen in as I coach them through how to end power struggles by implementing the worry brain method. You won’t want to miss the check with the family, after they had been practicing the worry brain method for six weeks!

We talk about:

6:00 Child who is too anxious to go to the bathroom or fall asleep alone
11:30 How anxiety works in our brains
13:20 How anxiety is a combination of nature and nurture
19:25 The problem with reassurance when people are anxious
22:00 How to teach kids how our brain works
34:00 How to know if your child is being independent enough
46:00 Check in about how the Worry Brain Method worked for Francis
54:00 Anxiety vs. Power struggles
1:00:00 What to share with kids about the hard things going on in the world

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Lynn Lyon’s podcast Flusterclux
Sarah’s podcast interviewing her daughter about being raised with peaceful parenting

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is an interview with Sara Sherman and Mort Sherman about their new book Resonant Minds. We discuss the different ways to listen to and engage with music, how to take it “one note at a time” and make the choice to use music in our lives, and how to handle music lessons with our kids.

We talk about:

5:12 Summary of the book Resonant Minds
7:45 The difference between active and passive listening to music
14:20 Collective Effervescence- taking in an experience together
15:55 Groove- when our brainwaves synchronize to build community
17:00 How to help parents bring more music into their kids’ lives
21:40 Why music lessons aren’t the only way to bring music mindfully in
25:30 Connecting music with emotions
29:00 Creating musical habits in our homes
34:00 How to take it “one note at a time”
36:00 How to handle Music Lessons with kids (to make them practise or not!)

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Parenting Playlists to shake off stress or to soothe the nervous system
Mozart for munchkins
Resonant Minds

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is an interview with Jack Hughes, an 18-year-old Parent Tech Support Expert. We discuss how to set up parental controls, why communication with our kids is key to setting tech limits and teaching kids how to use technology, and how to help kids engage in the real world instead of just interacting on screens.

We talk about:

5:00 What parents should know about Parental Controls on technology
7:09 Layering in different levels of parental controls
11:00 What parents should do in addition to parental controls
12:00 How to determine the age kids should get a phone
13:00 How to respect your kids’ phone privacy
16:25 How parents can teach kids to manage their own devices
24:30 How to facilitate children to have lives outside of screens
28:00 How to start limiting use of phones and screens
33:00 How to shift from online connection to in person connection
35:00 The common loopholes kids find to get around parental controls

Download the episode transcript HERE

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17TLxyi4DngJuqOcXGqXObtlW7UOZoLb7/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=110018038237477921046&rtpof=true&sd=true

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Jack Hughes’ website https://parenttech.support/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a workshop I gave recently about the keys to being a successful peaceful parent. I discuss how this parenting approach is about more than the tools we use to get through the day (which are also super important!). Instead, I focus on how peaceful parenting is a way a of life- a new way of thinking about your relationship with your kids and a new way of thinking about discipline.

We talk about:

6:00 Three Big Ideas of Peaceful Parenting
9:00 How peaceful parenting going mainstream has led to misconceptions about this approach
12:00 Key 1- The mindset that kids want to be good and are doing the best they can
13:54 Key 2- Have self-compassion when you make a mistake
18:10 Key 3- Combating our own adult centrism
22:00 Key 4- Watch out for “sugar coated control”
24:20 Key 5- Your needs count
27:30 Key 6- Manage your own needs because it is a long game
30:21 Key 7- Co-regulate focus on calming yourself
31:35 Key 8- The goodwill bank
36:19 Key 9- Find a mentor
39:28 Key 10- Find a community
40:46 The Peaceful Parenting Membership

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

YouTube version with slides
Peaceful Parenting Membership
Podcast about changing our language around “limits”

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Jaime Caponetta from the Paws and Pacifiers Podcast. Jaime is a Behavioral Dog Trainer/Consultant, Dog & Baby Expert, and author of the book "Stop Training Your Dog". We discuss how Jaime’s approach to dogs is the same as the peaceful parenting philosophy, how to teach children to engage with dogs, and what to do when you are bringing a new dog home to your kids or a new baby home to your dog!

We talk about:

3:12 What is force free, emotion-based dog training?
6:00 Identifying the emotions driving dog’s behaviours
10:00 Why won’t Sarah’s dog listen to her?
15:20 What parents should teach their kids about how to behave around dogs
21:50 How to read dog body language
28:00 Why we shouldn’t reprimand our dogs
30:35 What to do when bringing a new dog home when you have kids
35:27 How to get kids involved with taking care of the dog
39:00 How to handle if you are having a baby and already have a dog

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Dog and Baby Bliss Course https://www.jaimecaponetta.com/
Book: Stop Training Your Dog
IG: @jamiethedogtrainer
YouTube: Dog and Baby Bliss

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Mia Wisinski from the popular social media account, Playful Heart Parenting. We discuss why being playful needs to be woven into your daily life with your kids and not as a tactic to get their cooperation, what makes it hard to be playful, and lots of tips and tricks to start being more silly today!

We talk about:

4:00 Why does play sometimes backfire when you use it to try to get through the schedule?
7:00 How to be more intentional about play and fun
10:00 Changing your way of being with your children
13:00 How sexism shows up in our attitudes and ability to access our playful sides
17:00 How we are “weaned off” of play in our society
23:00 How to start getting playful and silly again
33:00 How games can help with specific challenges with your kids
41:00 How to not use play in a manipulative way

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Playful Parenting with Lawrence Cohen: Episode 103 https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode103/
Mia Wisinski @playfulheartparenting on IG
https://playfulheartparenting.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

We're with our families for March break! We'll be back March 19.

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Dr. Tamar E. Chansky who helps children, teens, and adults overcome worry and negative thinking. We discuss examples of what negative thinking sounds like, why empathy is always the first response, and some gentle teaching tools to overcome negative thinking and improve flexibility.

We talk about:

5:00 Examples of negative thinking in children
7:10 Why do reassuring words not help?
12:00 Why are some kids more prone to negative thoughts?
15:00 How to help your child with their negative thinking
23:54 Difference between engaging in the content vs. empathizing
29:50 “Long distance learning” and getting the timing right for teaching
33:45 Teaching kids to not fear feelings
39:30 Games to increase children’s flexibility

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free Your Child from Negative Thinking
Free Your Child from Anxiety
Freeing Yourself from Anxiety

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

Want to be more calm and regulated with your kids? Starts Monday!

Join me for a FREE 5-day challenge where you’ll learn how to stay calm and regulated (or pull it out of the tailspin!) when things are hard-- with your kids so you can move through the day we with more ease and joy!

Save your seat for the FREE 'Parents, Cool Your Jets! A Simple 5 Day Challenge To Teach You How To Stay Calm in Moments of Mayhem.'

Or go to ReimaginePeacefulParenting.com/Challenge

Share this with a friend and you can keep each other on track!

xx Sarah

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Corey and I talk about parenting scripts which have become a controversial topic and are often at the heart of the backlash against this parenting style. We cover when and how you can use parenting scripts, all the nuances involved in what we say, and how the same words can be used be a peaceful parent or a conventional parent.

We talk about:

1:56 How peaceful parenting is both a science and art
5:00 Why people want scripts
8:00 How the same words can be used for peaceful or conventional parenting
13:00 The importance of being authentic to your own personality when parenting
17:00 Focusing on the intent and context of your words
20:00 When words are not enough

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

What Do You Say? By Ned Johnson and William Stixrud
The Declarative Language Handbook by Linda Murphy

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Tim Blower from Sex in Space about how to talk to your kids about porn. We cover how to approach this at different ages and stages, the importance of educating your kids about sex, and fostering a relationship where they can talk to you about this important topic.

We talk about:

5:00 how can we best prepare kids for coming across porn
7:20 how to educate kids about what they will see
10:32 how porn becomes the default for kids and teens looking for information about sex
12:00 what age to start talking to kids about porn
17:40 how to not bombard your kids with information
18:34 the 3 stages when they can come across porn
20:00 the definition of porn for kids and teens
28:00 how to get these conversations going
33:00 mistakes parents make talking to their kids about porn

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

https://www.sexinspace.com/
https://www.sexinspace.com/books
https://www.sexinspace.com/podcast

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith, an internal medicine doctor and author of the book Sacred Rest. We discuss the difference between sleep and rest, the seven types of rest, and how to restore yourself if you are an exhausted parent!

We talk about:

3:00 Difference between sleep and rest
4:33 We don’t need to earn rest
7:00 The 7 types of rest
18:00 How children experience emotional rest
20:40 How to fill the creative rest deficit
22:24 How to fill the mental rest deficit
24:41 The importance of sensory rest!

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Dr. Saundra’s Rest Quiz https://www.restquiz.com/quiz/rest-quiz-test/
https://www.drdaltonsmith.com/
Sacred Rest https://amzn.to/3WU5yzA

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Corey and me about how frustrating it is when you feel like you’re getting the worst performance reviews from your children. We discuss how this can include your kids complaining about everything you do, as well as your kids being “good” out in the world and then more challenging at home. Don’t despair, we give you many ideas for how to lift your spirits during these hard parenting moments.

We talk about:

1:00 When it feels like you're getting the worst performance reviews from your kids
3:00 The different ways this presents
7:31 When kids are picking fights with you
8:00 How to start noticing the good reviews and wins
10:00 Self compassion when things feel thankless
11:50 The importance of community
13:00 Remembering you have a choice
16:02 Micro moments of connection
17:46 Change of scenery
19:56 Give yourself appreciation!

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

When You’re New to Peaceful Parenting: Coaching with Haley: Episode 179 https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/when-youre-new-to-peaceful-parenting-coaching-with-haley-episode-179/
Self Compassion Break Guide- https://peacefulparents.kartra.com/page/self_compassion_break
Free resources, including How To Stop YellingA t Your Kids free course https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/resources
Peaceful Parenting Membership https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Elaine Taylor-Klaus who coined the term “complex kids” and has written two books on this subject. We discuss how to take the coach role to support our complex kids through their own journey. Elaine shares how this worked out with her kids who are grown now and how it is never too late to start parenting in this way.

We talk about:

4:25 Elaine’s definition of “complex kids”
6:25 Why we need a more accommodated environment at home for complex kids
9:56 How to create flexible structure for complex kids
18:00 Why it is never too late to start peaceful parenting!
19:28 The “coach approach”
26:00 What do parents find hard about the coach approach?
35:00 What do natural consequences look like?

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Parenting ADHD (now!) Summit - February 4 - 6, 2025 https://impactparents.pages.ontraport.net/ParentingADHDNow2025?orid=153391&opid=243
Impact Parents- Helping Parents Help Kids https://impactparents.com/
The Essential Guide to Raising Complex Kids with ADHD, Anxiety, and More https://amzn.to/3PQPFpu
Parenting ADHD Now! https://amzn.to/3PQPFpu

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a coaching call with single parent Haley of a 4.5 year-old. Haley is brand new to Peaceful Parenting and we cover why she wants to parent this way and how to go about implementing it- especially when the people in her life are using a more conventional parenting approach.

We talk about:

3:30 How to handle kids saying hurtful things to us
14:00 How to handle setting limits
19:00 Comparing different parenting styles
28:00 How to respond to our kids without shaming them
35:00 How to handle other people’s perspectives on our parenting
44:00 How to know what limits to set
50:00 Understanding our own triggers

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Transform Your Family Life Course https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/parenting-course
Peaceful Parenting Membership https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership
Free How to Stop Yelling at Your Kids Course https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/resources

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation Georgie Wisen- Vincent a play therapy expert and co-author of the new book The Way of Play with Tina Payne-Bryson. We cover the importance of play for teaching children skills and understanding their feelings, and tangible ways that parents can join their kids in the world of play (even if they don’t really like playing!).

We talk about:

7:25 What does it mean to “observe and attune” to our kids?
12:22 How play helps children learn to manage their feelings without having an actual fight or flight stress response
23:00 Why kids tell us we are playing wrong!
28:00 Why it is okay to let kids have control and power in play
29:00 The “think out loud” strategy
33:00 How much should we be playing with our kids?
36:25 How play helps with resiliency

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

The Way of Play https://amzn.to/3PrAm6D
https://playstronginstitute.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a special conversation with my teenage daughter Maxine. Peaceful Parenting is a long game, and a lot of you are interested in what it's like when you have an older kid who's been raised with peaceful parenting. I think Maxine will reassure a lot of you who are still in the weeds with little kids and encourage you to keep going if you have tweens or teens.

We talk about:

2:00 Maxine’s definition of what peaceful parenting
6:42 Maxine’s observations of conventional discipline in a school
12:21 Maxine feeling closer to her parents and brothers than her peers
15:17 Maxine’s experience with peaceful parenting making her more independent
19:00 Maxine’s definition of conventional parenting
19:45 Maxine noticing confusing messaging about gentle parenting on IG
21:00 How to encourage your kids to talk to you
25:19 Maxine’s take on grounding kids
26:30 Maxine’s feelings about her parents limiting her screen time when she was younger
29:00 What Maxine would tell to her grown up parents self

Download the episode transcript HERE

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

If you are a regular listener to The Peaceful Parenting Podcast you know that at the end of every Guest Expert interview, I ask them if they could go back in time and give advice to their younger parent self, what advice would they give themselves? There are so many gems of wisdom that come from that question that I thought it would be fun to end 2024 with a mashup of all of the advice from our guests of 2024.

We talk about:

3:00 Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) with Casey Ehrlich
4:13 Understanding and Loving Spicy Kids with Mary Van Geffen
5:23 Find Your Unicorn Space with Eve Rodsky
5:54 From Strict Disciplinarian to Peaceful Parenting Dad and Coach with Kyle Wester
8:32 Raising Emotionally Intelligent Kids with Stephanie Pinto
13:17 When Your Child is Different with Sonali Vongchusiri
15:21 Neurodivergent Insights with Dr. Megan Anna Neff
17:31 Parenting Middle Schoolers with Phyllis Fagell
21:00 Conscious Parenting with Destini Davis
22:01 Ruth Whippman Raising Emotionally Healthy Boys- BoyMom: Reimagining Boyhood
24:05 ADHD and Feeding/Eating Challenges with Dr. Roberto Olivardia
24:42 How to Help Kids Manage Stress and Difficulty with Ned Johnson
30:08 Greg Santucci on Sensory Processing
33:10 Kristen Day Play Based Learning: Or Why You Don’t Need to Get Your Child Ready For Kindergarten
36:33 Why Is Parenting So Hard with Yolanda Williams
38:28 Sexism and Sensibility: Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls in the Modern World with Jo Ann Finkelstein
40:19 School Avoidance and Anxiety with Lynn Lyons
44:32 Strong-Willed Kids with Vivek Patel
46:32 Disordered Eating and Body Image Issues with Luciana Rosu-Sieza and Alexis Sauls Ramos
48:51 How to Help Our Little Ones Sleep with Kim Hawley
52:49 When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic with Jennifer Wallace

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Casey Ehrlich https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode139/
Mary Van Geffen https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode138/
Eve Rodsky https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode30/ and Eve’s book Find Your Unicorn Space
Kyle Wester https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode141/
Stephanie Pinto https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode-144-raising-emotionally-intelligent-kids/ and Stephanie’s Book- From Chaos to Connection
Sonali Vongchusiri https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode-146-when-your-child-is-different-with-sonali-vongchusiri/
Dr. Megan Anna Neff https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/neurodivergent-insights-with-dr-megan-anna-neff-episode-147/ and Dr. Neff’s book Dr. Megan Anna Neff’s book Self-Care for Autistic People: 100+ Ways to Recharge, De-Stress, and Unmask!
Phyllis Fagell https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/parenting-middle-schoolers-with-phyllis-fagell-episode-151/ and Phyllis’ books Middle School Matters and Middle School Superpowers
Destini Davis https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/conscious-parenting-with-destini-ann-episode-153/ and Destini’s book Very Intentional Parenting: Awakening the Empowered Parent Within
Ruth Whippman https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/raising-emotionally-healthy-boys-boymom-reimagining-boyhood-episode-155/ and Ruth’s book BoyMom: Reimagining Boyhood in the Age of Impossible Masculinity
Ned Johnson https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/how-to-help-kids-manage-stress-and-difficulty-with-ned-johnson-episode-156/ and Ned’s books What Do You Say with Ned Johnson and William Stixrud and Self-Driven Child by William Stixrud (PhD) and Ned Johnson
Dr. Roberto Olivardia https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/adhd-and-feeding-eating-challenges-with-dr-roberto-olivardia-episode-149/ and Dr. Olivardia’s book The Adonis Complex: How to Identify, Treat and Prevent Body Obsession in Men and Boys by Dr. Roberto Olivardia
Greg Santucci https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/greg-santucci-on-sensory-processing-and-live-qa-with-my-membership-community-episode-157/
Kristen Day https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/play-based-learning-or-why-you-dont-need-to-get-your-child-ready-for-kindergarten-episode-159/
Yoland Williams https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/why-is-parenting-so-hard-with-yolanda-williams-episode-160/
Jo Ann Finkelstein https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/sexism-and-sensibility-raising-empowered-resilient-girls-in-the-modern-world-with-jo-ann-finkelstein-episode-164/ and Jo Ann’s book Sexism & Sensibility Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls In The Modern World
Lynn Lyons https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/school-avoidance-and-anxiety-with-lynn-lyons-episode-166/ and Lynn’s book Anxious Kids Anxious Parents by Lynn Lyons
Vivek Patel https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/strong-willed-kids-with-vivek-patel-and-qa-with-membership-episode-168/
Luciana Rosu-Sieza and Alexis Sauls Ramos https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/disordered-eating-and-body-image-issues-with-luciana-rosu-sieza-and-alexis-sauls-ramos-episode-170/
Kim Hawley https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/how-to-help-our-little-ones-sleep-with-kim-hawley-episode-172/
Jennifer Wallace https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/when-achievement-culture-becomes-toxic-with-jennifer-wallace-episode-173/ and Jennifer’s book Never Enough: When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic- and What We Can Do About It

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I bring back one of my favorite holiday episodes, which is an interview with my kids, where we talk about ‘people, not stuff’.

I know many parents are concerned that their children might become materialistic due to the abundance of gifts they receive during the holiday season, which is why I highlight the importance of showing kids that there’s more to life than possessions.

We talk about why it’s normal for children to desire many things, and how to remind them that we can welcome their feelings without necessarily fulfilling all their materialistic desires.

We cover:

[1:05] Discussion on Kids Wanting More Stuff
[2:13] Raising Non-Materialistic Kids
[2:19] Acknowledging Financial Privilege
[4:33] Addressing Parents’ Fears about Kids Wanting Stuff
[8:50] Encouraging Kids to Give Presents
[10:06] Parents’ Role in Reducing Materialism
[16:46] Kids’ Excitement and Gratitude for Presents
[24:06] Changing Values with Age
[26:10] Influence of Parenting on Materialism
[27:10] Importance of Anticipation in Celebrations
[27:56] Advice for Parents on Materialism
[28:47] Reflections on Childhood and Consumerism
[30:14] Transition from Wanting to Appreciating
[37:12] Understanding Gratitude and Privilege

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free How to Stop Yelling at your Kids Course https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/resources

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter

Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

If you aren't on my email list you won't have heard about this special Black Friday 50% sale on my peaceful parenting course, Transform Your Family Life.

It's 50% off til Monday evening Dec 2.

Check it out here: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/parenting-course-cart-open

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Corey and me about how our thinking about the word “limits” has changed over time. We cover why we think the word limit wasn’t capturing the spirit of what it means to be a peaceful parent, and how we find the word collaboration works better. Don’t worry, we give lots of examples of what this looks like in practice!

We talk about:

4:30 Peaceful Parenting Big Idea 1: Self Regulation
5:20 Peaceful Parenting Big Idea 2: Connection and Relationship
5:40 Peaceful Parenting Big Idea 3: Collaboration
14:55 The importance of being flexible
18:16 How collaboration fills up the “good will bank”
25:00 Letting go of using power over our kids

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free How to Stop Yelling at your Kids Course https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/resources

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Jennifer Wallace, author of the book Never Enough: When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic- and What We Can Do About It. We cover how putting less pressure on our kids will actually lead to better outcomes in the long run, and how to actually go about implementing this approach in our homes.

We talk about:

4:45 Separating self worth from achievements
9:35 How to minimize criticism and prioritize affection
12:00 Why “good schools” don’t matter as much as people think
14:00 Why feeling like you “matter” is most important
17:37 How to not put pressure on little kids
24:00 How to help parents redefine success
36:00 How to make kids feel worthy no matter what
38:33 How to notice the signals you are sending your kids

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Never Enough: When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic- and What We Can Do About It https://amzn.to/48ZSDk7
https://www.jenniferbwallace.com/
IG @jenniferbreheneywallace

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This is a replay of an important episode. Celeste and Jen join me on the podcast to talk about supporting LGBTQ kids, specifically if you’re part of a religion or way of living that does not affirm them.

Celeste is the executive director of Mama Dragons, which was created by Gina Crivello. Gina gathered a small group of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon) mothers together as they navigated supporting their LGBTQ children in a culture that was not affirming.

Since then, Mama Dragons has grown to become a leader in affirming parent education and offers support to more than 9,000 members worldwide.

We cover:

[6:50] What is Mama Dragons
[11:50] How Jen found out her son was gay, and what she did to navigate it
[15:20] The physical effects of coming out of ‘fight, flight of freeze’ mode
[19:10] The difference affirming parents make, and how you can affirm a child
[22:10] Parenting practices to adopt
[24:30] What Jen wishes she knew about raising a gay son
[26:30] What Jen has learned working with Mama Dragons
[29:10] The impact of growing up in a religious setting
[31:50] The importance of doing your own research and not getting caught up in misinformation
[33:10] Why people so threatened by the idea of LGBTQ people
[38:35] Advice both Celeste and Jen would give to their younger parent self

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/resources
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Learning program Parachute – https://parachute.mamadragons.org/
Get free Parachute courses using the code PEACEFULPARENTING

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Kim Hawley, a holistic sleep coach. We cover what developmentally appropriate sleep is and Kim shares some great tips and tricks to work with our little ones so everyone stays safe and gets more sleep. Be sure to listen to the end when we discuss my own experiences and sleep regrets from 20 years ago, when I was a young mother with children who didn’t sleep well.

We talk about:

4:18 Developmentally appropriate sleep expectations kids 0-1 years-old
8:27 Problematic sleep practices that started in the 1950s
9:30 Developmentally appropriate sleep for toddlers
11:40 Why do toddlers wake at night?
17:00 How to get everyone more sleep safely
18:50 How to make babies/toddlers more comfortable with a separate room
22:00 Is there a place for tears?
27:55 The problems with rigid sleep schedules
32:00 Good sleep hygiene practices
38:18 How to use noise machines
39:00 Sarah’s story with night weaning as a case study

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Developmentally Appropriate Sleep Expectations: Birth to Age 5 (2024 Update) https://intuitiveparentingdc.com/blog/2018/7/6/developmentally-appropriate-sleep-expectations-birth-to-age-5
The Responsive Family Sleep Podcast https://intuitiveparentingdc.com/podcast

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a coaching call with Hayley and James who have a 2-year-old and 3-year-old. We cover what to do when kids behave in embarrassing ways in public and how understanding brain development can go a long way in helping parents become more confident.

We talk about:

5:20 What causes sibling rivalry
7:00 Lack of impulse control with little kids
16:00 Understanding developmentally appropriate behaviour
20:50 Self Compassion when feeling judged
35:00 Can you nurture or “coddle” kids too much?
47:00 How understanding child development can increase our confidence as parents

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Dr. Dan Siegel’s Hand Model of the Brain https://drdansiegel.com/hand-model-of-the-brain/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is an important conversation with Luciana Rosu-Sieza and Alexis Sauls Ramos from Bulimia Anorexia Nervosa Association (BANA). We have an in depth discussion about disordered eating, including causes, red flags, and what we can do as parents to prevent our kids from developing eating disorders and foster a healthy relationship with food and their bodies.

We talk about:

6:00 What is disordered eating?
11:00 Risk factors for disordered eating
12:57 Boys and disordered eating
18:39 Red flags for eating disorders
24:00 Why you shouldn’t “Wait and see”
26:00 What can we do as parents to prevent this?
38: 55 Be Your Selfie Campaign
48:15 How to handle children saying “I’m fat”
59:00 Food neutrality

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

National Eating Disorder Centre www.nedic.ca
The Bulimia Anorexia Nervosa Association www.bana.ca

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Corey and me about our upcoming Flourish with your Complex Child Summit. We cover why we decided to do this summit and all the important themes, information, and support it will give parents of complex kids.

We talk about:

5:30 How seeing behaviour through a sensory lens changed parenting for Corey
9:00 Parental concerns about getting a diagnosis
10:22 Why parents don’t need to be afraid of a diagnosis
13:00 Support for parents who are complex or having a hard time
15:15 Challenges when working with professionals when you have a complex kid
18:15 The different layers of skill building and mindset shifts as a peaceful parent
21:00 Confusion about what “gentle parenting” is

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

REGISTRATION IS OPEN! Flourish with Your Complex Child Summit 2024 https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/summit

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This week on The Peaceful Parenting Podcast you get a sneak peek inside my Peaceful Parenting Membership. Listen in to our Q &A with Vivek Patel about non-coercive parenting and strong-willed kids. Vivek is a true champion of children and is one of the speakers this year in the upcoming Flourish with Your Complex Child Summit. If you would like to hear more from Vivek as well as 25+ additional speakers, register for FREE today!

We talk about:

7:30 What is coercion?
10:50 Rewiring our own patterns
12:14 Non coercive collaborative parenting- what we don’t do and what we do
15:20 Problems with “transitional parenting philosophies”
28:08 Member Question- how to apply these ideas to feeding challenges
38:00 Member Question- how to help a kid respect their brother’s boundaries
47:00 A radical humanity approach to children hitting

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

REGISTRATION IS NOW OPEN! Flourish with Your Complex Child Summit 2024 https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/summit
Vivek Patel https://www.meaningfulideas.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a replay of my conversation with Dr. Devon Price from last year’s Flourish with Your Complex Child Summit. We have an in-depth discussion on why neurodivergent people mask and what it is, the “fine at school” phenomena, and the long term effects of heavily masking. Registration opens today for this year’s summit where you will get access to over 25 conversations just like this one!

We talk about:

6:50 What is masking?
10:50 Masking for survival
16:56 The “fine at school” phenomena
20:00 Self Compassion for Parents
25:31 What is harmful about masking?
34:00 Changes needed in the school system

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

REGISTRATION IS NOW OPEN! Flourish with Your Complex Child Summit 2024 https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/summit
Unmasking Autism by Dr. Devon Price https://amzn.to/47GZRsF
Secret Life of the Black Aspie by Anand Prahlad https://amzn.to/4eGU2xV
Uncomfortable Labels, My Life as a Gay Autistic Trans Woman by Laura Kate Dale https://amzn.to/47GZRsF

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

The Secret Life of a Black Aspie: A Memoir

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is my fourth interview with anxiety expert Lynn Lyons! We discuss how to handle school avoidance, including: how to figure out the root cause of school avoidance, how anxiety works including physical symptoms, and how to teach parents and children how to handle anxiety when it inevitably shows up.

We talk about:

4:31 Finding the root cause to school avoidance
7:00 Using “home days” when kids need a break
9:00 Normalizing needing breaks, rather than pathologizing
11:40 Emotionally based school avoidance- includes anxiety and depression
16:00 How anxiety can cause physical symptoms like stomach aches and headaches
23:03 Teaching kids and parents to tolerate uncertainty
30:00 Why techniques to “get rid” of worry don’t work
32:00 How to talk back to worry
48:13 How to handle “The Moment of Goodbye” when dropping kids off

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Three Skills to Protect Our Kids’ Mental Health with Lynn Lyons https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode35/
Membership Q&A – How to Help Anxious Kids in Real Life Scenarios with Lynn Lyons https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode45/
How Anxiety Shows Up in Our Parenting and What to Do About It with Lynn Lyons https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode-99-how-anxiety-shows-up-in-our-parenting-and-what-to-do-about-it-with-lynn-lyons/
Lynn Lyon’s podcast Flusterclux https://www.flusterclux.com/episodes/
Lynn’s website https://www.lynnlyons.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a coaching call with Celine, Mom of a 2.5- year-old and a 4.5-year-old. Listen in as we discuss strategies for supporting sleep and eating, as well as the big ideas and mindset shifts that happen when you are transitioning to Peaceful Parenting.

We talk about:

2:47 Why Celine decided to try peaceful parenting
4:30 Strategies/Mindset shifts around trying to get the kids to bed
23:28 Strategies/Mindset shifts around getting kids to eat/stay at the table
27:30 The Division of Responsibility of Feeding
49:00 How to process our feelings without making our kids responsible for them

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Podcast- Bedtime Best Practises with Corey Everrett https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode86/
Podcast- How to Overcome Picky Eating with Jennifer House https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode49/
Podcast- ADHD and Feeding/Eating Challenges with Dr. Roberto Olivardia https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/adhd-and-feeding-eating-challenges-with-dr-roberto-olivardia-episode-149/
Yoto Audiobook Player https://ca.yotoplay.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Jo Ann Finkelstein, a clinical psychologist, about her new book Sexism & Sensibility Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls In The Modern World. Listen in as we discuss how to address sexism and gender bias in our parenting of both girls and boys.

We talk about:

3:58 Jo Ann gives an example of gender bias she experienced growing up in her own home
9:58 Learned helplessness around sexism
10:00 How we can recognize our own gender bias
14:00 Pushback when women and girls challenge gender bias
17:00 Teaching girls a sense of healthy entitlement
22:37 Ways to raise sons who don’t perpetuate sexism
27:50 Complexities of beauty culture
31:30 How to handle comments about girls’ appearance
32:47 How we navigate our girls’ clothing choices
36:00 Finding a balance with safety and letting girls be who they are

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Sexism & Sensibility Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls In The Modern World. https://amzn.to/4dCLLeg
30 acts of micro feminism https://joannfinkelstein.substack.com/p/30-small-acts-of-resistance

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this re-release of a favourite episode, we’re answering how to handle when your child says ‘I hate you’.

Of course, when we’re on the receiving end of this, it can feel painful to hear, so how do we navigate it and what can we do about it?

This episode is inspired by my daughter, Maxine, who suggested I do this topic and share it with you. In fact, she joins me in the second half of the episode to share her perspective and what she wants parents to know.

We cover:

[1:30] Responding with ‘calm’
[2:40] Reminding yourself what you’re seeing is the “fight”
[4:30] How to respond to the feeling that’s driving the behavior
[8:00] What to do when this is a trigger for you
[11:20] Knowing that you’re not alone
[12:35] What my daughter Maxine thinks parents should know about this
[15:20] The kind of reaction parents should have
[17:10] How to not take offense

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/resources

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this re-release of a favourite episode, we discuss the term ‘stable misery’.

It’s Dr. Lynyetta Willis’s term to describe the ‘in-between’ space we sometimes experience as parents: The house isn’t burning down but things aren’t great.

In this episode, Dr. Willis joins me for a conversation about how to break out of stable misery.

As a psychologist and family empowerment coach, Dr. Lynyetta Willis, helps frustrated families stop Stable Misery® cycles or unhelpful patterns that keep them stuck, so they can create more joy in their parenting or partnerships. Her Triggered to Transformed® Parent Coaching Program has helped parents all over the world to confidently deal with their triggers so they can pass on the best parts of themselves and enjoy parenting more.

We cover:

[2:40] How Dr. Lynyetta became a family empowerment coach
[3:45] What stable misery is
[5:55] How to recognize when you’re in stable misery
[9:00] The Five Paths Framework
[21:10] Tips to get in touch with your feelings and emotions
[27:20] The difference between stressors and triggers
[40:20] Dr. Lynyetta’s advice to her younger parent self

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Quiz: What’s Your Parenting Trigger Score – https://drlwillis.link/trigger-score
Stable Misery Free Roadmap – www.healingstablemisery.com
www.drlwillis.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This is re-release of one of our favourite episodes:

Mainstream parenting is W.E.I.R.D! Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic. Well, maybe not everyone. But parenting in North American culture has changed a lot in the past few hundred years and it’s a lot different currently than some other places in the world.

My guest in this podcast set out to look at how some other families around the world operate, how American parenting is different, and what we can learn from parents in other places.

Michaeleen Doucleff, PhD, is the author of the New York Times bestseller Hunt, Gather, Parent. The book describes a way of raising helpful and confident children, which moms and dads have turned to for millennia. It also explains how American families can incorporate this approach into their busy lives.

Doucleff is also a global health correspondent for NPR’s Science Desk, where she reports about disease outbreaks and children’s health.

We cover:

[3:00] Why Michaeleen wrote her book and what influenced it
[6:30] How the nuclear family has been a failed social experiment
[13:10] Michaeleen’s TEAM acronym
[20:00] The interesting thing about encouraging our kids to develop autonomy
[37:30] The importance of having minimal interference with our kids
[45:55] Culturally specific traits when raising kids
[52:00] Advice Michaeleen would give her younger parent self

Download the episode transcriptHERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Hunt, Gather, Parent by Michaeleen Doucleff
Brain-Body Parenting by Dr. Mona Delahooke
www.michaeleendoucleff.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

Brain-Body Parenting: How to Stop Managing Behavior and Start Raising Joyful, Resilient Kids

Hunt, Gather, Parent: What Ancient Cultures Can Teach Us About the Lost Art of Raising Happy, Helpful Little Humans

View Details

This is a re-release of one of our favourite episodes:

Tosha Schore joins me to talk about what to do when your child is aggressive.

Most of us have been there – kids fighting over toys, hitting, sibling rivalry, or anger that seems to come out of nowhere. How do you handle it? Is there an effective way to deal with it?

Tosha is mom to three boys and an advocate for boys and their families. She is on a mission to create a more peaceful world, one sweet boy at a time by supporting you to care for yourself, connect with your boy deeply, set limits lovingly, and play wildly!

She brings a burst of energy and optimism to parenting, and is an expert at simple solutions to what feel like overwhelmingly complicated problems.

Through her online community and courses, Tosha helps break the isolation of modern parenting and lifts your confidence so you’re better equipped to face the challenges of raising young boys.

We cover:

[4:30] How Tosha got into this work
[5:50] Why kids get aggressive
[9:10] Meeting your child where they’re at
[13:00] How to stop your child’s aggression
[16:40] Common mistakes parents make when trying to end aggressive behavior
[23:15] What to do when the aggression seems to be impulsive
[32:00] How to handle being fearful of your child hitting or hurting you
[40:45] Sibling rivalry and aggression between siblings
[48:35] Lashing out after breaking toys
[51:15] How to know if you’re handling these situations correctly
[53:35] Figuring out our triggers
[57:25] When aggression comes out of nowhere
[59:25] What Tosha would tell her younger parent self

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/toshaschoreyourpartnerinparentingboys
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ToshaSchoreYourPartnerInParenting
Website: https://parentingboyspeacefully.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a compilation of listener questions I have answered over the last three years. We cover what to do when your child won’t listen, when you have a runner, when your child prefers one parent, when your family openly disagrees with your parenting choices.

We talk about:

2:50 What do when your child won’t listen?
4:30 3 Big Ideas of parenting a strong-willed child
6:00 Finding win/win solutions
11:00 How to work on connection
13:00 Managing full emotional backpacks
14:40 What do when your child is a ‘runner’?
16:13 When impulse control starts to develop
20:30 Games to strengthen impulse control
22:44 What to do when your child prefers one parent?
25:00 What to tell yourself if you aren’t preferred
26:30 What to say to your kids if you aren’t preferred
31:00 What to do when your family disapproves of your parenting?
34:01 Having different parenting goals than our family
37:00 Managing feelings of shame
39:00 Agreeing to disagree

Download the episode transcript HERE:

Resources mentioned in this episode:

www.reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/podcast
www.reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/resources
https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this re-relase of one of my favourite episodes, I sit down with Dr. Stuart Shanker to understand our children’s challenging behaviour. We discuss why children act the way they do sometimes and what we can do about it.

Dr. Shanker explains the 5 domains or areas where stress shows up in our and our children’s lives. We discuss how we can be ‘stress detectives’ to help reduce challenging behaviour.

Dr. Stuart Shanker is the author of the Self-Reg trilogy: Calm, Alert and Learning: Classroom Strategies for Self-Regulation, Self-Reg: How to Help Your Child (and You) Break the Stress Cycle and Successfully Engage with Life; Reframed: Self-Reg for a Just Society.

In 2012 Stuart founded The MEHRIT Centre as a Self-Reg learning and information centre for parents, educators, the leaders of today and the leaders of tomorrow. In this challenging time in which we are living, Self-Reg inspires what is most desperately needed: a profound sense of hope for the future.

We cover:

[4:45] Why misbehavior is stressed behavior
[9:10] The difference between self control and self regulation
[12:50] The 5 categories of stressors
[23:00] Is misbehavior intentional?
[30:00] Tips for parents to help reduce stressors
[42:00] Biggest stressors parents are faced with today
[44:10] Spirited kids vs. stressed out kids
[50:30] Why there’s an uptake in sensory issues
[54:00] Dr. Shanker’s advice to his younger parent self

The goal of The MEHRIT Centre is to provide parents and educators around the world with the tools needed to raise healthy and vibrant children; and to provide adults and seniors with a powerful method for enhancing their own well being.

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode

Self-Reg Infosheet for Parents: https://self-reg.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/infosheet_SelfRegParents.pdf
Self-Reg Book written by Dr. Stuart Shanker: https://shop.self-reg.ca/collections/all/products/self-reg-how-to-help-your-child-and-you-break-the-stress-cycle-and-successfully-engage-with-life
Blog written by Dr. Stuart Shanker: https://self-reg.ca/no-such-thing-as-a-bad-kid/
https://www.instagram.com/self_reg/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-mehrit-centre-ltd-/
https://www.facebook.com/SelfReg/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

What are bedtime best practices?

We know how challenging bedtime can be, and in this re-release of one of our favourite episodes, Corey and I give our best tips and strategies to navigate it with ease and a big dose of self compassion!

We talk about separation anxiety, how to be supportive partners to one another, creating bedtime and morning routines, and so much more.

We cover:

[2:30] Mindest tips around bedtime
[6:05] Why it’s okay to want to help
[8:50] How to set yourself up to be in a better space mentally before bedtime
[11:00] Starting your bedtime routine in advance
[13:30] Getting energy out before bed
[16:45] Creating a nighttime routine
[18:50] Keeping kids accountable to their routine
[25:10] Make the bedroom ‘bed-able’
[32:30] The separation that comes with bedtime
[44:00] Giving your kids a container of time to talk at bed time
[52:10] Taking turns putting the kids to bed

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode

Rest, Play, Grow by Deborah McNamara: https://amzn.to/3QU9o7C
Infographic: https://macnamara.ca/portfolio/info-graphic-when-saying-goodnight-is-hard-20-ways-to-bridge-the-nighttime-distance/
Free Stop Yelling Course and Bedtime Cheat Sheet: www.reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/resources

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

Rest, Play, Grow: Making Sense of Preschoolers (Or Anyone Who Acts Like One)

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Dr. Steve Hodges, pediatric urologist and the author of It's No Accident, Breakthrough Solutions to Your Child's Bedwetting, Constipation, UTIs, and Other Potty Problems. Listen in as we get to the bottom of your child’s accidents and potty challenges. We say the word poop 111 times so consider yourself warned!

We talk about:

3:30 Case Study about a 3.5-year-old holding and having poop accidents
13:50 Accidents aren’t kids’ fault
15:56 The importance of an X-Ray for a proper diagnosis
23:23 Toilet training best practices
25:42 Why do kids not like pooping?
27:00 Letting go of pull ups

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Dr. Steve Hodges book- It's No Accident, Breakthrough Solutions to Your Child's Bedwetting, Constipation, UTIs, and Other Potty Problems https://amzn.to/4bSOJJU
https://www.bedwettingandaccidents.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

It's No Accident: Breakthrough Solutions To Your Child's Wetting, Constipation, Utis, And Other Potty Problems

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a coaching call with Shalyn, Mom of 5-year-old and 7-year-old sons. Listen in as we discuss strategies for supporting her son to fall asleep at night and how working on parental mindset and worries can support our kids as well.

We talk about:

3:40 Helping a child who struggles to fall asleep
18:00 When it looks like a kid is intentionally misbehaving
24:31 Helping a child who doesn’t like school
31:00 Not projecting our needs and preferences on our kids
01:00:00 Putting a plan into place at school for ADHD accommodations
01:01:30 Managing sibling rivalry
01:05:56 Helping kids with positive self worth
1:07:23 How to manage the word “I hate you” with kids

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Podcast- Bedtime Best Practises with Corey Everrett https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode86/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Yolanda Williams of Parenting Decolonized. This is the second time we have had Yolanda on the podcast and this time we discuss why peaceful/conscious parenting is so hard and how to create the changes we need in our families and society.

We talk about:

3:30 Yolanda’s explanation about why conscious parenting is so hard
5:50 How we cope with this exhaustion
9:00 The way we “cut corners” and do less
17:13 Having to parent while re-parenting ourselves
24:00 Roadblocks created by systemic oppression
29:00 Managing judgement from other adults
39:00 Learning how to implement boundaries with other adults
46:00 Oppressive parenting tactics- even more subtle ones
50:00 The deeper work of conscious parenting

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Supernova Parenting Summit: Guiding Neurodivergent Families Towards Brilliance July 27th-28th, 2024 www.supernovaparenting.org “Give your child a childhood that they don’t have to recover from”
FB: https://www.facebook.com/wildnfreefamilyfarm
IG and TikTok @prntgdcolonized

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This is a re-release of one of our favourite episodes: Corey and I discuss our best tips for traveling with kids. We know that traveling with our kids can be challenging, and there are tips and mindset hacks you can adopt and use in your own travel journeys. We cover meltdowns, setting expectations, routines, emotional backpacks, and more.

We cover:

[2:25] Acknowledging that traveling with children is really difficult
[4:05] Important mindset tips for traveling with kids
[8:10] Planning your trip and keeping your schedule loose
[10:10] Letting your kids know what to expect and setting expectations
[11:15] Expecting meltdowns
[13:40] How to make traveling with your kids more pleasant
[23:50] Handling kids being out of their routine
[26:55] Helping them empty their emotional backpacks

Download the episode transcript HERE

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Kristen RB Peterson on letting go of “getting ready for kindergarten” and focusing on play based learning instead. Listen in as we discuss the findings of studies on the importance of play and how to foster more play in your home.

We talk about:

4:45 Study about play based preschools vs. academic preschools
5:30 Confusion around what play is and what play is not
6:45 Five Characteristics of play
11:31 Play schemas (patterns in children’s play)
13:00 Importance of “loose materials” for play
14:42 Why parents should avoid academic focused preschools
26:13 NASA Creativity Study
33:00 How parents can help their kids have more play
38:00 Importance of risky play in early childhood

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

IG @kristen.rb.peterson
Play-Based Learning Podcast https://www.kristenrbpeterson.com/podcasts
Kristen’s Website https://www.kristenrbpeterson.com/
Citations for the studies: “Studies that compared the performance of children attending academic preschools with those attending play-based preschools showed no advantage in reading and math achievement for children attending academic preschools. However, evidence did suggest that children attending academic preschools had higher levels of test anxiety, were less creative, and had more negative attitudes toward school than did the children attending play-based preschool.” Swart, K., & Houser, K. (2023). Early Childhood Play and Academics: What Are Parents’ Perceptions? Dimensions of Early Childhood, 51(2), 28–32.
The second study mentioned: Zekarias, E. Z., & Zhao, W.(2023) Parent play beliefs, play as a teaching technique, and teachers' pedagogical knowledge, and children's early numeracy and literacy skills: Evidence from Wolaita Zone, southern Ethiopia. Open Journal of Social Sciences, 11(01), 270-292.

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a coaching call with Jessica, Mom of 6-year-old and 8-year-old daughters. Listen in as we identify how her own anxiety was affecting her parenting as well as how to work with her strong-willed daughter.

We talk about:

6:00 The light bulb moment around how anxious Jessica was feeling
15:00 How to work with our children’s sensory preferences
17:50 How to word things with our strong-willed children
23:33 How our childhood shows up in our parenting
30:37 When kids won’t go to the bathroom
50:00 There are no “peaceful parenting police”
1:00 Sensory aversions to clothing

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Podcast with Lynn Lyons https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode-99-how-anxiety-shows-up-in-our-parenting-and-what-to-do-about-it-with-lynn-lyons/
Podcast with OT Greg Santucci https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/greg-santucci-on-sensory-processing-and-live-qa-with-my-membership-community-episode-157/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Greg Santucci a pediatric OT and founding Director of Power Play Pediatric Therapy. We discuss what the sensory processing system is and how to decode behaviour through cultivating a “sensory lens”.

This conversation was recorded in my membership, where community members were able to ask Greg their questions.

We talk about:

6:00 The “hidden” senses
9:00 What sensory processing is
12:23 Why sensory seeking behaviour happens
13:50 What “regulation” is
21:28 How parents can start looking at behaviour through a sensory lens
24:00 Trying to figure out the root cause of behaviour
27:00 Toddlers repeatedly dumping things
30:30 How to improve interoceptive awareness with kids
35:00 Accommodating sensory challenges/preferences at school
40:47 Potty training challenges in a daycare setting
47:00 Teaching strategies to manage sensory challenges

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

www.reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership to join my membership for the rest of June. You still have time to join the live Q&A with Ned Johnson, my workshop on healthy self-esteem, and access our weekly Office Hours
Greg on Facebook: Greg Santucci, Occupational Therapist
Greg’s resources: https://gregsantucci.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview one of my favourite people and author of two parenting books, Ned Johnson. We discuss how to talk to kids to build stress tolerance, manage anxiety, build intrinsic motivation, and self regulate screen time.

Ned has been on the podcast twice before- be sure to check out the other two episodes linked below once you’re done listening to this one.

We talk about:

2:17 How you can get access to a live Q&A with Ned
6:35 Increasing stress tolerance in kids
9:30 The difference between resilience and stress tolerance
11:00 How to help kids with their anxiety
21:48 How to help kids stuck in a loop of negative thinking
37:00 How to help kids with intrinsic motivation
48:00 How to help kids with balanced screen use

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

www.reimaginepeacefulparenting/membership to join a live Q&A with Ned Johnson, my workshop on healthy self-esteem, and access to our weekly Office Hours
What Do you Say? How to Talk with Kids to Build Motivation, Stress Tolerance, and a Happy Home By Ned Johnson and William Stixrud https://amzn.to/3HwZuDT
Raising A Self-Driven Child with Ned Johnson https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode8/

Bonus Q&A: What Do You Say? How to Talk to Kids to Promote Motivation, Stress Tolerance, and a Happy Home with Ned Johnson https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/bonusnedjohnson/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

What Do You Say?: How to Talk with Kids to Build Motivation, Stress Tolerance, and a Happy Home

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Ruth Whippman about her book BoyMom: Reimagining Boyhood in the Age of Impossible Masculinity. We discuss the humanity lacking in traditional models of masculinity and the type of sensitive and connection-based parenting that is desperately needed for boys.

We talk about:

4:00 Systems of power and oppression
4:35 How the same systems that harm women and girls, also harm men and boys
6:00 How we see boys as mad, not sad
7:13 Neuroscience research on the sensitivity of boys’ brains
12:45 Why stats on boys’ mental health struggles are not accurate
13:55 Why adolescent boys are in a mental health crisis
28:34 How screens are displacing socializing in person for boys
36:00 Incel (involuntarily celibate) movement
43:00 Buddy vs. Sweetheart

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

BoyMom: Reimagining Boyhood in the Age of Impossible Masculinity by Ruth Whippman https://amzn.to/4c6W60C

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

Brief summary of show:

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I discuss how to help children through the end of the school year transitions and give you tips for how to facilitate an “old-fashioned” play based summer.

1:18 End of the school year is a transition
1:46 Transition years are even harder (end of kindergarten, moving to middle school, moving to high school etc.)
3:00 End of school anxiety
3:28 Report Cards and academic pressure
6:12 The importance of play during the summer
10:00 Ways to maintain academics in a low pressure ways during the summer

We talk about:

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

End of School Anxiety article https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/end-of-school-year-anxiety/
“How to help out kids with Transitions” with Sarah Rosensweet https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode50/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I talk with Destini Davis, certified parenting coach, author, and parenting influencer on Instagram and TikTok. We discuss her transition from permissive to conscious parenting and address backlash against this parenting style.

We talk about:

6:16 moving from permissive parenting to conscious parenting
8:00 understanding compassionate discipline
9:10 importance of taking care of and working on yourself
10:33 addressing backlash against conscious parenting
20:00 moving away from a “power over” relationship with our kids
22:00 importance of flexibility and collaboration
28:00 effects of conscious parenting on your relationship with your kids
29:00 debunking the idea that conscious parenting isn’t realistic
31:00 challenges transitioning from conventional or permissive parenting, to conscious parenting

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free Stop Yelling Course https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/stopyelling
Very Intentional Parenting: Awakening the Empowered Parent Within by Destini Ann Davis https://amzn.to/3QN4ri3
Destini Ann on IG and TikTok

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, longtime peaceful parent, Bonnie, fine tunes her approach to her 4-year-old and 6-year-old children with big feelings.

We talk about:

4:24 The difference between obedience and cooperation
11:42 The difference between punishments and limits
17:00 Balancing doing things for your kids and meeting your own needs
35:00 The benefits of roughhousing before bedtime
40:23 How to appreciate yourself more, when home full time with kids
46:00 Why it is okay if you have kids who “push back” on demands

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Episode 121: How To Raise Kids Who Aren’t Jerks with Melinda Wenner Moyer https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode121/
Episode 23: ‘Raising Helpful Kids: Navigating Chores’ with Sarah Rosensweet https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode23/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

Peaceful parenting teenagers small group coaching/course.

Starts Thursday May 16

This course is for you if:

✅ You have teenager(s) (ages 13-19)

✅ You want to build or REbuild a great relationship with your teen

✅ You want your teen to be happy, safe and successful

✅ You want to send your teen off prepared for independence

Email Sarah: Sarah@SarahRosensweet.com or send a DM to Sarah on Facebook or IG.

SPACE IS LIMITED

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I talk with Phyllis Fagell, a licensed clinical counselor, school counselor, and author of two books. We discuss how to parent Middle Schoolers (9-15 year olds) and focus on staying curious and coaching them through challenges with friends.

We talk about:

3:55 Why middle school is parents’ “Last best chance”
5:42 Some differences based on gender during Middle School
7:35 Fitting in vs. Belonging
10:00 Our role as parents when witnessing friend conflicts
15:10 Balancing accepting kids as they are and helping with social skills
20:00 How to lead with curiosity when our kids are unkind
25:11 Characteristics of bullying
28:22 What to do if your child is being bullied
36:00 FOPO (Fear of Other People’s Opinions)
40:45 How to know if your child needs additional support
42:36 How did COVID affect middle schoolers

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Middle School Matters https://amzn.to/4brcCbo
Middle School Superpowers https://amzn.to/3y8eeZp
The Congruence App (voice activated self coaching for teens)- Email service@congruence.app for a free month. Include the name “The Peaceful Parent Podcast” in the subject of the email
https://phyllisfagell.com/
IG @pfagell

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

Middle School Matters: The 10 Key Skills Kids Need to Thrive in Middle School and Beyond--and How Parents Can Help

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Corey and I break down 8 myths about peaceful parenting that keep coming up on social media. We discuss the nuance involved in this parenting approach and what it really means to be a peaceful parent.

We talk about:

2:09 Backlash about Peaceful Parenting (PP)
4:07 How nuance of the approach doesn’t come across on social media
5:31 Myth 1: Parents need to be calm all the time
9:48 Myth 2: The child’s needs and preferences are more important than the parents
17:29 Myth 3: PP is not realistic or actually possible to do
21:13 Myth 4: There is one way to do PP
27:22 Myth 5: PP is about never making your children feel bad and shielding them from all pain
29:49 Myth 6: PP is the same as permissive parenting
30:15 Myth 7: PP is just a bunch of scripts and it’s robotic- you can’t be yourself
33:20 Myth 8: Standards are too high and lead to perfectionism

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Understanding Challenging Behaviour with Dr. Stuart Shanker https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode78/
Hunt, Gather, Parent with Michaeleen Doucleff https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode60/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This is the replay of a workshop I taught this week. In it, I explain what peaceful discipline is and how it differs from conventional fear- and power-based discipline. I also tell you HOW to do it, with examples and also examples from those parents who attended the workshop.

If you want to watch the workshop instead of listen, the link is here: https://youtu.be/56G5FiCuwrQ?si=um0ta2c-q68SKPUR

My Transform Your Family Life parenting course is enroling now til Tuesday April 30 at 11 PM. We start on Wednesday. More info here: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/parenting-course

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I talk with Dr. Roberto Olivardia, a clinical psychologist and lecturer at Harvard Medical School, about feeding/eating challenges with children with ADHD. We discuss how to help kids with ADHD learn interoception and mindfulness around eating without perpetuating diet culture.

We talk about:

7:23 Flexibility when parenting an ADHD child
8:25 The effects ADHD has on eating, and the prevalence of eating disorders
11:03 Misconceptions and explanations of eating disorders
28:00 Navigating ADHD kids eating while not harming their relationship with food
40:00 Tips for families where intuitive/responsive feeding isn’t working
48:26 Differentiating between helping an ADHD kid eat/tune into their body vs. diet culture
54:45 When language can become harmful and perpetuate diet culture
1:02:00 Mindfulness when eating

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

The Adonis Complex: How to Identify, Treat and Prevent Body Obsession in Men and Boys by Dr. Roberto Olivardia https://amzn.to/3W4TJGS

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

The Adonis Complex: How to Identify, Treat and Prevent Body Obsession in Men and Boys

View Details

What do you do when you don't want to yell, threaten or use consequences? Join me to learn exactly how to raise great kids with the peaceful discipline tools.

2 dates and times to choose from. Sign up here: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop

Join me and learn:

✅ the difference between limits, consequences, and natural consequences

✅ why consequences are not in our peaceful parenting tool kit

✅ why we always lead with empathy in limit setting

✅ tips for effective limit setting

AND a live Q&A with me to get all your questions answered.

It is totally possible to get kids to cooperate without yelling, threats, bribes or punishment.

Plus- let's think about the long term-- We want to raise great kids who do the right thing when no one is looking.

https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop

View Details

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Kathy, a neurodivergent mom of a 7 year old neurodivergent boy, joins me on a coaching call. She shares the challenges she is having with her partner, and the effects that was having on her parenting.

We talk about:

9:00 Effects of separation on her son
11:09 What to share and not share with her son about the separation
16:20 How to sidestep fault/blame conversations with her son
19:20 Navigating her son’s big feelings around the separation
28:00 How Kathy has broken cycles of generational trauma
41:48 The key to giving people real empathy
46: How Peaceful Parenting is a set of relationship principles

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Episode 129: Co-Parenting After Divorce with Aurisha Smolarski https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode129/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Dr. Megan Anna Neff discusses parenting while neurodivergent, parenting neurodivergent kids, and differentiating between anxiety and sensory dread. Dr. Neff also talks about her new book Self-Care for Autistic People: 100+ Ways to Recharge, De-Stress, and Unmask!

We talk about:

5:14 Parenting while neurodivergent
6:41 Shame around struggling as a parent
10:14 What helped Dr. Neff when she had young children
15:24 Connecting with other parents who are having a hard time
16:00 Parenting neurodivergent kids
20:00 Normalizing talking about neurodivergence and diagnosis in the home
24:31 Grief and complex emptions around neurodivergence
26:21 Sensory Dread vs. anxiety
34:24: Self care for neurodivergent people

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Divergent Conversations Podcast
Neurodivergent Insights
Masterclass with Dr. Jonathan Dalton on Anxiety and Sensory Dread
Dr. Megan Anna Neff’s book Self-Care for Autistic People: 100+ Ways to Recharge, De-Stress, and Unmask!
https://pinkymckay.com/6-games-to-play-when-you-dont-want-to-play-any-more/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This is an updated re-release of a favourite episode! “How do I get my kids to help out with chores?” This is a common question that I get from parents across my community, so I thought I would do an episode with some tips and tricks to help you encourage your kids to want to help out more around the house.

I share my top strategies and what has worked well for my family over the years. The information I’m sharing today is tried and true, and will serve as a stepping stone to your journey with chores!

“Should I give your kids specific jobs?” or “What do I do if they refuse?” This episode covers these questions and so much more.

If you like what you hear, be sure to share the episode with someone you know needs to hear it.

Listen in as we talk about:

The main strategies to encouraging your kids to help with chores
Tips to motivate our kids to want to pitch in and help out
Why empowerment is a key tool
How to avoid power struggles in asking our kids for help with chores
Giving yourself appreciation when it feels like your child is unappreciative of your help

Download the transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode

Connection Strategies
Blog post about cleaning
Model Graciousness article

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Sonali Vongchusiri of Forward Together Parenting shares her story of both growing up and being a parent as a legally blind person with Albinism. Sonali and I discuss navigating differences and finding true belonging.

We talk about:

6:00 Why Sonali didn’t find out she had Albinism until age 12
9:00 Sonali sharing her story of how she found out
13:00 Sonali’s struggles to accept herself and her disability
17:40 Sonali realizing she couldn’t parent the way other parents could
18:45 Sonali finding her own unique way to parent
26:30 Fitting in vs. belonging
34:43 The problem with pretending there is no difference

Download the episode transcipt HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

https://www.forwardtogetherparenting.com/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/raisingyourstrongwilledchild

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

This is a re-release of one of our favourite coaching calls with Georgina, who joined me to talk about managing her son’s big feelings.

Georgina is the mom of six year old Oswald and a five month old baby. Georgina wanted to know how to best support her six year old, who is a really intense little guy with big feelings. Be sure to listen to the end to hear about Georgina’s big breakthrough!

We talk about:

How our kids can trigger unhealed traumas from our past
Giving our kids space to process their big feelings and managing ours at the same time
Strategies to empty emotional backpacks before coming home from a long day
How Georgina was able to connect with her inner child

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode

www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Episode 20: Reparenting Ourselves: Being the Parents We Want To Be with Leslie Priscilla

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, we discuss the recent findings by the Canadian Pediatric Society about the health benefits of risky play. We cover not only why risky play is beneficial but also how to manage our own anxiety as parents.

We talk about:

2:00 Seven categories of risky play
4:00 Risky play vs. actual dangerous play
5:10 Benefits of risky play
5:56 Play is the work of children
7:20 Risk assessment
11:40 Why is letting our kids do risky play hard?
12:26 Managing our own anxiety around our kids getting hurt
13:38 17 second rule
14:50 What do say instead of safety chatter

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Canadian Pediatric Society “Healthy Childhood Development Through Risky Play: Navigating the Balance with Injury Prevention” https://cps.ca/en/documents/position/outdoor-risky-play
Episode 99 How Anxiety Shows Up in Our Parenting and What to Do About it with Lynn Lyons https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/episode99/
Heather Shumaker’s book https://amzn.to/3PbukHi

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

It's OK Not to Share and Other Renegade Rules for Raising Competent and Compassionate Kids

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, we are doing a podcast swap with Stephanie Pinto of the Emotionally Intelligent Parenting Podcast! Listen in to hear how the common thread in both Peaceful and Emotionally Intelligent Parenting are welcoming and normalizing feelings, and how doing so can change the energy in your home and set up your kids for future success.

We cover:

3:00 Introduction to both Sarah and Stephanie- backstories, coaching journeys
17:00 Similarities between peaceful and emotionally intelligent parenting
20:55 Normalizing emotions
32:32 Dos and Don'ts of Peaceful Parenting
43:00 What parents in Stephanie's community wish their parents had said to them
46:33 Advice Stephanie and Sarah would give to their younger selves

Download the episode transcript HERE

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Stephanie Pinto's podcast "Emotionally Intelligent Parenting Podcast" www.stephaniepinto.com/podcast
Stephanie Pinto's book www.amazon.ca/Chaos-Connection-parenting-emotional-intelligence/dp/0645574600/
Sarah's Peaceful Parenting Mantra's Colouring Book https://peacefulparents.kartra.com/page/colouringbook

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, we tackle a common issue among parents - having a child who argues about everything.

The episode provides insights into why this might happen and how parents can handle it effectively. A child continually arguing could be an indication of intelligence and lack of fear, considered good signs. However, we highlight the importance of evaluating your limits and strategies as a parent, discussing scenarios such as being too strict and controlling or being excessively permissive.

Overall, parents are encouraged to value a child's perseverance and possibly channel it into activities where it would be considered an advantage, like joining a debate team.

We talk about:

2:36 Evaluating our limits & Good Will bank
04:55 Being ‘too’ permissive
08:00 Too giving too many explanations
11:43 Empathy for our child and looking at our reaction
13:54 Kids feeling disconnected
15:28 Using superpowers for good

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Kalista, a full time working mother joins me for a coaching session. She shares her challenges as a neurodivergent mom in parenting her highly sensitive toddler.

We talk about how to move from survival mode to simple life mode, the realization that perfection is not the goal, the usefulness of empathizing with our child's perspective, empowerment in making active choices, the value of self-compassion and understanding the functioning of the nervous system, and the concept of using tools like earplugs to manage overwhelming noise.

We talk about:

2:44 Kalista's family background
4:02 How overwhelm impacts the enjoyment of her child
7:16 Taking a nervous system reset
14:42 Simplifying the things you need to do
17:38 Is the solution worse than the problem?
19:51 Emotional backpack
26:33 How does she calm her nervous system
36:18 Addressing the tactic for saying no or correcting behavior
43:14 Update
49:49 Not identifying as your emotions
52:09 Learning how to regulate together

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Kyle Wester, a Peaceful Parenting coach and father of three, shares his journey from initially planning to spank his children to advocating for peaceful discipline.

He sheds light on his transformation, prompted by uncovering the psychology of children's behavior and redefining what strength and discipline mean as a father.

We talk about effective ways for dads to communicate with their children, handling anger, and the importance of creating a nurturing and safe environment for children to grow.

We talk about:

6:24 Did he know that he wasn't going to spank? And how his kids were raised
11:43 What to do when one parent wants to peaceful parent and the other isn't on board yet
16:11 Advice that might help dads reach that ‘aha’ moment
21:55 Kyle’s biggest aha moment
27:21 Modeling behavior for your child in how to talk to your partner
31:48 Switching the energy and teaching your kids how you would like them to talk to you
44:29 The relationship development through different stages with your kids
45:41 The underlying fear that drives dads
49:20 Advice to his younger parent self

Kyle Wester, Licensed Professional Counselor, MHR, is in full-time private practice having worked with families and children for over 15 years; working with a variety of clientele including children, adolescents, individual adults, and families.

Wester specializes in providing counseling to individuals who have experienced trauma, parenting skills training, and working with children with challenging behaviors including anger, ADHD, opposition, and defiance, and children going through divorce.

Wester received a Master's Degree in Human Relations (MHR) from University of Oklahoma (License number: LPC4892).

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Kyle

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/artofraisinghumans/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/artofraisinghumans
Podcast: https://www.parentinglegacy.com/podcast
https://www.parentinglegacy.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Sophie joins me for a coaching episode, where we cover the adoption of peaceful parenting techniques and emotional navigation in sensitive kids.

Sophie is a single mother who's transformed her parenting style to manage her sensitive son Peter's big emotions effectively, leading to her growth as a confident parent. We talk about therapeutic strategies, coping mechanisms, and instilling responsibility in kids, especially with ADHD tendencies.

We also talk about their family dynamics, highlighting the importance of tailored disciplinary actions, empathy, and tactful conversations.

We talk about:

3:43 The work we have done together
6:20 Misunderstandings about attachment parenting
11:09 Reparenting herself
17:31 Sophie's background as a sensitive person and how it affects her parenting
24:34 Diving deeper into the problems surrounding getting out of the door in the morning
29:45 Adjusting expectations
37:16 How to get Peter to open up
49:23 Two-week check in
50:26 Update about her mental progress
53:20 Using incentives
58:50 Systems + resource for things completing tasks like cleaning a room
1:01:56 Using money as a reward

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, guest expert Casey Ehrlich from At Peace Parents joins me to discuss Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA).

She provides an in-depth understanding of PDA, a profile of autism that is characterized by a consistent survival drive for autonomy and equality, and shares how it can affect everything from an individual's eating and sleeping habits to maintaining safety.

Casey's approach centers on accommodating rather than activating the individual's nervous system. For parents raising PDA children, she shares an effective cost-benefit decision making framework that offers radical acceptance of the situation. She also touches on the hard choices parents sometimes need to make, including separating siblings for safety and allocating resources for help.

We talk about:

5:10 Definition of Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA)
7:32 How she found out that her son was PDA
13:44 5 Characteristics of PDA
25:51 Is Masking a form of Freeze
26:11 Do you talk about FON with PDA
29:59 How common is PDA
31:05 Strategies for parents
40:35 What do you do if one sibling is PDA and one is not?
45:25 How PDA adults manage this in terms of their relationships
52:12 Advice to her younger parent self

Casey Ehrlich, Ph.D. (she/her) is a social scientist, parent coach and educator, the CEO and founder of At Peace Parents, and a leader of the first peer-reviewed studies of PDA in the United States. Casey brings 15 years of work experience and expertise in social science methodology to help parents and therapists understand how to connect with and accommodate PDA Autistic children. She specializes in teaching parents and therapists practical skills in the home or clinical setting to accommodate neuroception-driven demand avoidance and nervous system differences through creative techniques. Her original research as a social scientist was conducted on post-conflict reconciliation, social capital, trust, and trauma in Colombia, South America - themes she brings to her work with parents, therapists, and teachers. She has served more than 1,000 families raising Autistic, PDA Autistic, ADHD and traumatized children since 2020 and is also raising a PDA autistic son.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Casey

https://www.instagram.com/atpeaceparents/
https://www.facebook.com/atpeaceparents/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP92MJiCpuWTpgtOaFty2Cw
https://www.atpeaceparents.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

Join us inside The Peaceful Parenting Membership! Doors close Tuesday PM Jan 30

Learn more: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/membership/

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Mary Van Geffen, a parenting coach, mom of spicy kids, and former marketing MBA executive, shares about her experiences and learnings from parent coaching.

She explains the difference between a 'spicy kid' and a 'spirited kid', emphasizing that both include elements of overlap, but their understanding depends on the perspectives and expectations of the parents.

Mary discusses methods of self-care for parents, the importance of creating healthy relationships within and beyond the family, and the power of maintaining a positive outlook towards your kid.

We talk about:

[4:43] Definition of Spicy Ones
[6:33] The difference between Spicy and Spirited children
[10:53] What's great about spicy kids
[12:13] Knowing what is truly important in your life and where boundaries need to be
[17:19] How did her mother deal with her growing up
[19:30] How has her relationship with herself changed through her parenting journey
[23:37] Building what she’s teaching other parents
[25:18] Best ways parents can support themselves
[30:35] Advice to her younger parent self

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Mary

https://www.instagram.com/maryvangeffen/?hl=en
https://www.facebook.com/parentcoachforspicyones
http://www.maryvangeffen.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, we discuss why kids try to blame somebody else, and how they often blame others when they're hurt or upset. We explore reasons why this happens, including the fight, flight, or freeze response and a subconscious attempt to avoid difficult feelings.

We cover tips to help parents effectively respond when a child blames someone for something. I also talk about my free and upcoming 'Peaceful Parenting Reset' event that helps parents better manage and empathize with their children.

We talk about:

[3:00] Why kids want to blame somebody else
[5:48] Anger as a secondary emotion
[7:23] What we can do about blame
[9:23] Not needing to make everything a teachable moment
[12:24] How to respond when our child is blaming us
[17:12] Understanding our strong feelings

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Free reset: www.sarahrosensweet.com/reset

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I sit down with Jennifer Anderson, Registered Dietitian and founder of Kids Eat in Color.

Jennifer, a leading expert in addressing picky eating and food anxiety in children, shares the importance of the 'division of responsibility' in feeding kids, noting that parents decide what food is provided, when, and where, but children decide if and how much they eat.

We also talk about promoting healthy eating habits without instilling fear of 'bad food,' and explore how diet culture, neurodivergence, and parental fears can influence children's relationships with food.

We talk about:

[6:33] Why it’s important to get kids to eat a variety of foods
[10:15] Age as a factor in picky eating
[11:50] Sensory issues with picky eating, and reasons kids might not just ‘grow out’ of picky eating
[16:31] Realizing our own capacity and releasing parental guilt
[18:33] Child led exposure therapy vs. ARFID
[19:45] The line between doing feeding therapy out of concern vs. pressuring kids into eating more
[26:42] Two sides to a good relationship with food
[28:04] Drawing the line between genuine needed concern and diet culture influence
[33:28] Good food vs. Bad food
[39:33] Suggestions for how parents can talk about food
[42:48] Support families around feeling their kids are eating too much or little
[55:45] Advice to her younger parent self

As a mother, wife, registered dietitian, and founder of Kids Eat in Color®, Jennifer Anderson faced challenges in feeding her children, especially when her first child began falling off the growth chart. This experience led her to specialize in child nutrition and picky eating.

After extensive research, she developed an approach involving small, evidence-based adjustments to mealtime routines that effectively reduced food-related stress. She established Kids Eat in Color and assembled a team of experts to offer practical strategies and resources to parents struggling with similar issues. Recognizing the impact of small changes and variety in a child's diet, her platform provides guides, courses, and tools to help parents manage mealtime challenges and promote their children's health.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Jennifer

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kids.eat.in.color/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kids.eat.in.color
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ca/kidseatincolor/
https://kidseatincolor.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I sit down with Melanie for a coaching episode.

Melanie is a mom of two spirited boys – Ben and Eamon. We talk about the challenges Melanie is facing, from managing often intense energy levels and instances of aggression to understanding strong emotions and dealing with non-cooperation in daily routines.

I give Melanie solutions, like introducing one-on-one time and sensory activities, prioritizing problem-solving situations, and reminding children that their parents are on their side.

We talk about:

[3:49] When Melanie’s son gets lost in play and becomes physically aggressive
[5:58] Handling meltdowns at dinner
[12:53] Running in the street to the car
[16:28] Random acts of aggression
[21:31] Finding your own triggers and then knowing what to do about them
[30:20] Prevention tips of physical violence between the two boys
[37:00] Sensory issues
[46:40] Check in and update
[55:51] Eamon's random acts of violence
[1:08:27] Helping Ben when he is tuning everything out

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I sit down with Ginny Yurich, to discuss the numerous benefits of nurturing a slow childhood, marked by ample outdoor play and fewer structured activities.

We shed light on how unstructured outdoor play can promote a child's adaptability, independence, creativity and resilience, aspects that are critical for success in a rapidly changing world.

Ginny Yurich is a homeschooling mother of five and founder of 1000 Hours Outside, a global movement designed to reclaim childhood. Along with her husband, Josh, Ginny is a full-time creator and curator of the 1000 Hours Outside lifestyle brand, which includes a robust online store, an app, and books. She also hosts the 1000 Hours Outside weekly podcast. A thought leader in the world of nature-based play and its benefits for children, Ginny lives with her family in the Ann Arbor area of Michigan.

We talk about:

[7:00] Ginny’s first good day as a mom
[17:16] Generational differences in childhoods
[23:52] The filter in which parents look at the desire for their child to be successful
[29:46] How her perspective on parenting was changed by the Rich Habits Test for Parents
[33:22] Managing your own fears so your child can have a slow childhood
[38:00] Light, and looking at different light inside and outside
[42:47] Advice for parent who feel like they don’t have enough time
[51:23] Advice to her young parent self

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Ginny’s Book: https://amzn.to/3GCL7hN

Connect with Ginny

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/1000hoursoutside/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/1000hoursoutside
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/1000hoursoutside
Podcast: https://www.1000hoursoutside.com/podcast
https://www.1000hoursoutside.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I bring back one of my favorite holiday episodes, which is an interview with my kids, where we talk about ‘people, not stuff’.

We talk about why it's normal for children to desire many things, and how to remind them that we can welcome their feelings without necessarily fulfilling all their materialistic desires.

We talk about:

[1:05] Discussion on Kids Wanting More Stuff
[2:13] Raising Non-Materialistic Kids
[2:19] Acknowledging Financial Privilege
[4:33] Addressing Parents' Fears about Kids Wanting Stuff
[8:50] Encouraging Kids to Give Presents
[10:06] Parents' Role in Reducing Materialism
[16:46] Kids' Excitement and Gratitude for Presents
[24:06] Changing Values with Age
[26:10] Influence of Parenting on Materialism
[27:10] Importance of Anticipation in Celebrations
[27:56] Advice for Parents on Materialism
[28:47] Reflections on Childhood and Consumerism
[30:14] Transition from Wanting to Appreciating
[37:12] Understanding Gratitude and Privilege

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Vivek Patel, a fellow parenting coach, joins me to talk about non-coercive collaborative parenting.

We talk about strategies to create healthier dynamics among parents and children by building life skills over time and indulging in kind, empathetic connections rather than enforcing control or exerting power.

Vivek Patel of Meaningful Ideas has been sharing Conscious Parenting concepts for over 10 years. The ideas he shares have been used by thousands of families to create more harmony and connection in their homes.

We talk about:

[6:55] What respect is
[11:35] How do you use non-coercive parenting in a way that fits with the real world
[18:15] Vivek's experience in noticing when his kids "close" and "open"
[25:50] The principle of ‘no wrongness’
[31:25] Knowing what’s in it for me (WIIFM)
[39:25] The three most important relationships
[43:00] Empowering your child's relationship with themselves
[52:05] Advice to his younger parent self

He has written more than 500 parenting articles and created over 300 videos. There is also a book in the works.

Vivek cares deeply about empowering parents to develop more harmonious relationships with their kids using a powerful approach called “Non-Coercive, Collaborative Parenting”, based on Communication, Connection and Collaboration. He is also best friends with his 26 yr old.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Vivek

Instagram: www.instagram.com/meaningfulideas
Twitter: https://twitter.com/meaningfulideas
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/meaningfulideas
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@meaningfulideas
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/meaningfulideas
https://www.meaningfulideas.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I sit down with Christy, a mother of two boys, for a coaching episode.

We discuss the challenges Christy has faced with her older son, Jay, in terms of emotional regulation, sibling rivalry, and self-deprecating behavior. We talk about Christy's nurturing approach and understanding towards Jay's needs and I offer strategies to improve their relationship.

The importance of one-on-one time, being neutral during sibling fights, and indirect discussions about feelings are highlighted as well. We talk about:

[3:30] Christy’s intro and background
[5:35] What PDA means
[8:00] What Jay’s struggles look like
[10:05] Handling meltdowns
[12:45] How to handle when your child's response turns to self harm
[15:10] How Jay responds to empathy
[20:55] Understanding their sibling dynamic
[23:40] How is 1:1 and special time
[30:25] Focusing on prevention
[44:55] Part 2: Check In
[46:25] Update on sibling rivalry
[48:05] Special time update
[53:25] Handling verbal lashing out
[57:35] How to address him calling his brother names
[59:30] How has his self talk improved

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Corey joins me to discuss how to handle situations where extended family members criticize or disagree with your peaceful parenting approach.

We talk about educating family members about the principles and science behind peaceful parenting, setting clear boundaries, and understanding the importance of self-confidence and self-compassion. We also emphasize the importance of critical thinking, open-mindedness, and flexibility in some parenting beliefs, such as children's diet and screen time when visiting grandparents.

We talk about:

[0:50] When your extended family is not on board with peaceful parenting
[2:20] The difference between people openly criticizing you and just you feeling judged
[3:30] Overcoming the trigger of love withdrawal
[5:10] The challenge when family doesn’t understand or know what peaceful parenting is
[8:30] How to set a boundary with your loved ones
[11:15] raising kids who aren't afraid of adults, and not comparing your kids to others
[13:55] Building breaks into time with family around the holiday
[15:20] Grandparents going into protection mode when they feel like their grandchildren are pushing against their parents
[20:05] Learning how to set boundaries
[25:25] Talking to your kids about the differences in how other family members approach discipline
[29:40] Learning what you can let go and what needs to be discussed
[32:10] Limiting time with people who are truly toxic

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I’m joined by Aurisha Smolarski, a therapist and author of 'Cooperative Co Parenting for Secure Kids: The Attachment Theory Guide to Raising Kids in Two Homes'.

We talk about co-parenting: attachment styles and their role in communication between co-parents, the emotional impact of divorce on kids, methods for managing transitions and holiday arrangements, and advice for maintaining a child-focused approach in co-parenting.

Aurisha shares specific tips for creating a secure foundation in a two-home setup, while also advising parents to adapt and revisit parenting plans as children grow and their needs evolve. She emphasizes the importance of self-reflection for parents in managing their own reactions and contributing positively to their co-parenting dynamic.

Aurisha Smolarski, MA, LMFT is a therapist, a co-parenting coach, a mediator, and a co-parent. She lives and has a practice in Los Angeles where she also co-parents her 11 year old daughter. She specializes in helping families navigate the complex terrain of co-parenting and build healthy, cooperative co-parenting relationships.

We talk about:

[4:55] How Aurisha got into this work
[5:35] Why she wrote her book
[12:00] Common mistakes she sees co-parents make
[15:45] What it means to put kids in the middle
[19:15] When a divorce might not be a harmonious split
[30:10] When households have different values or beliefs while co-parenting
[36:05] Easing the transition between houses
[41:45] Nesting in the same house
[44:10] Court-mandated custody agreements that have kids moving more
[46:50] Different reactions kids might have when parents split up
[50:55] Advice to her younger parent self

Teaching people how to break up or divorce well, for the sake of their children, is what she loves about her work and what led her to write Cooperative Co-Parenting for Secure Kids: The Attachment Theory Guide to Raising Kids in Two Homes. Having watched co-parents go from confusion to clarity, conflict to cooperation, and loneliness to a sense of belonging, she's honored to empower and provide guidance to co-parents so they can do what they most want: make sure their kids thrive.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Cooperative CoParenting For Secure Kids:The Attachment Theory Guide to Raising Kids in Two Homes: https://www.amazon.com/Cooperative-Co-Parenting-Secure-Kids-Attachment/

Connect with Aurisha

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cooperativecoparenting
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cooperativecoparenting
www.aurishasmolarski.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Amanda Diekman, an eminent advocate for low-demand parenting, discusses her own experiences as an autistic adult, and how it has shaped her parenting style.

She also explains the core principles of low-demand parenting and emphasizes on building trustful relationships by being creatively supportive to meet the child's distinctive needs. We also look into the parental process of accommodating a child's neurodiversity, experiencing a sense of deep 'why', and their own need within it.

We talk about:

[6:40] What is low demand parenting and how did came to adopt it
[10:35] How she grew low-demand parenting from watching her children
[11:55] The breakdown that changed things with her middle child
[17:00] What happens in the nervous system of a PDA
[19:30] The continuum of resistance when being told what to do
[23:30] How to handle family demands in parenting
[29:00] Getting assessed when there are challenges
[35:30] Handling a hungry kid who won't eat because they're experiencing it as a demand
[37:40] When dropping the demand for the child creates more of a demand for a parent
[41:50] The deep ‘why’
[47:10] Struggling doesn’t mean you’re doing anything wrong
[50:55] The difference between low demand parenting and permissive parenting
[54:40] Advice to her younger parent self

With two Duke degrees, countless academic papers, and a Masters in Theology under her belt, it seemed she was on a steady path. But in 2020, when her child went into severe autistic burnout, and she was diagnosed with PTSD from parenting, everything in her life changed. She reworked her parenting approach and her self-care rhythms based around radical acceptance. From this experience, the low demand approach was born.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Amanda

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lowdemandamanda
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lowdemandamanda
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Lowdemandamanda
https://www.amandadiekman.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

Today's episode is a guest coaching episode with Yael. You may remember Yael from a few years ago as she was on the podcast before, and she's back talking about her complex kiddo, Rowan.

In this episode, we’re trying to find a way for him to feel supported at school, how to get his teachers on board, as well as some strategies for her to support herself. If you stick around to the end, you will hear her update on how things went with him.

We talk about:

[2:15] Yael’s background and a re-introduction to her son
[4:30] A recap of what we covered in our first episode
[6:40] Getting Rowan assessed
[8:55] The current challenges: Rowan not wanting to participate at school
[13:30] How to ask teachers for support of our kids
[20:00] Looking at different school options
[21:50] Finding a mantra to soothe anxiety
[26:15] Filling the gaps in learning
[31:35] Putting our kids in the driver’s seat and encouraging autonomy
[37:40] Strategies for self regulation
[45:05] Check-in after a few weeks
[53:20] Giving Rowan breaks from school

Resources mentioned in this episode:\

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Dr. Michele Borba, author of the book 'Thrivers', and I discuss the importance of teaching children resilience and optimism.

We explore parenting strategies and practical tips for nurturing self-confidence, empathy, and self-control in kids. Our conversation highlights the role of parents in helping children navigate challenges and develop the skills needed to thrive in today's uncertain world.

We talk about:

[3:50] Teaching our kids self empowerment
[8:05] Three categories of character strengths
[10:05] Nurturing a caring heart and developing self-confidence
[14:10] Seven traits and using them interchangeably
[17:20] Developing a strong mind and self-control
[22:10] Noticing when kids are feeling out of control and responding calmly
[24:00] The impact of stress in our kids’ lives
[26:40] Developing and encouraging optimism
[35:05] Advice she would give to her younger parent self

Dr. Michelle is an educational psychologist, bestselling author, and Today Show contributor who has spoken to over 1 million participants on five continents and to countless media about child development issues.

She blends 40 years of teaching and consulting experience with the latest science to offer sound Realistic advice to parents and teachers and child advocates about helping children thrive.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Michele

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drmicheleborba/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drmicheleborba/
https://micheleborba.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Ed Center shares his personal journey as a queer Brown dad, raising his children with a different approach from the cultural norms he grew up with.

We discuss the challenges of parenting in a way that goes against the grain, the importance of healing and self-forgiveness, and the need for support and community.

Throughout our conversation, we emphasize the significance of creating space for understanding and connection with our children, as well as fostering relationships that allow for growth and change.

We talk about:

[3:15] Ed's background becoming a parent
[6:20] Elements of his culture he wanted to pass down to his kids and parts he did not want to
[7:30] His son's mental health crisis during the pandemic
[11:30] Research as a trauma response and noticing the last of coaches of color in the parenting space
[13:30] His creation of The Village Well
[15:20] Trying to parent differently than how we were raised
[24:35] Creating trust with the parents we work with
[27:45] Showing grace and processing our own trauma
[33:50] How to not repeat toxic styles
[37:20] Dealing with disapproval of family members
[43:55] Strategies for self control and triggers

Ed Center was a child with big feelings and impulsive behaviors. He drove his mom and teachers crazy. Now he helps grown-ups to understand and support these kids.

During the height of the pandemic, Ed’s son suffered an acute mental health crisis. Searching for support, Ed discovered the field of positive parenting and learned strategies and tools to strengthen his connection with his son, leading to healing for the whole family. However, Ed was frustrated with the lack of attention to diverse cultures and traditions.

He founded The Village Well to bring more connection, joy, and healing to families of color. Ed and his husband raise two boys and three cats in San Francisco.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Free first Fridays and $1 Coaching

Connect with Ed

Instagram: www.instagram.com/villagewellparenting
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/village-well-parenting/
TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@queerbrowndad
https://www.villagewellparenting.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Corey and I explore a wide range of topics and challenges that parents frequently encounter on their journey towards becoming Peaceful Parents. Sometimes parents find that peaceful parenting doesn’t “work” like they think it’s “supposed to” work and then they feel like they’re doing it wrong or worry that peaceful parenting isn’t for them. This is probably because they have a kiddo who is more complex than the typical kiddo-- and it’s why we are on a mission to reimagine peaceful parenting.

We talk about the nuances from parent to parent, and kid to kid, when it comes to peaceful parenting strategies and techniques. For example, we talk about the differences in special time, connecting with our kids in different ways as well as finding different tools and strategies to help them to process their emotions.

Ultimately, we want you and your child to be on the same team. To help even more with this, we’re putting on a Summit to help you and your kids flourish.

We talk about:

[1:20] When you feel like you’re doing Peaceful Parenting “wrong”
[3:00] What you will gain from our upcoming Summit
[4:20] How ‘Special Time’ looks different between each parent and child relationship, and what to do about it
[7:20] Connecting with your child aside from special time
[11:55] How to help our kids process emotions, aside from emptying the emotional backpack
[15:55] Connecting with your child when they’re being defiant
[18:25] Making sure you and your child are on the same team
[20:00] Feeding and division of responsibility
[28:50] Our upcoming rebrand
[34:30] Opening the doors to our membership

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Summit: www.sarahrosensweet.com/summit

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, we have a coaching episode with Stephanie. Stephanie is the mom of two kids, Felix, who's 18 months, and Thomas, who's nine.

Stephanie shared with me before we recorded that Thomas is an amazing, curious, strong willed, more extra 2E kid. She explains how he watches her and also triggers her, which invites her to work hard on her own self regulation and self compassion (as we dive into in our conversation). We talk about:

[1:20] You don’t want to miss this summit
[4:35] When to start transitioning to letting your kids have more say over what they do and not forcing them or having to distract them to get things done
[7:20] How others' emotions can affect us, and especially children
[10:45] When kids struggle to take medications
[14:35] When a habit of making snarky comments can make kids feel bad
[20:00] Her sons relationship with his dad
[23:05] What to do when it feels overwhelming to get things done with him
[24:40] Implementing collaborative proactive solutions
[29:20] Emptying his emotional backpack
[30:20] What her connection is like with her son
[36:20] Helping her son learn how to communicate his feelings
[38:00] Finding forgiveness for yourself
[41:10] Dealing with her parent’s disapproval for how she’s raising her kids
[45:50] One month check in
[49:30] The progress she has seen
[1:01:25] Managing our relationship to stress and time

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Summit: www.sarahrosensweet.com/summit

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Rachel Harrington and Jessica Hill join me to talk about all things sensory processing disorder.

Rachel, COTA/L, AC and Jessica, COTA/L are two passionate Certified Occupational Therapy Assistants and the hosts of the popular podcast, All Things Sensory. Their podcast, digital courses, YouTube, and blog on Harkla.co covers topics related to sensory processing disorder, special needs, parenting, and topics related to child development and health. We talk about:

[4:00] Who Rachel and Jessica are
[6:15] What is sensory processing disorder?
[8:15] Our 3 hidden senses
[11:20] Sensory challenges that come with going to the bathroom
[13:35] Triggers with taking a bath
[16:11] Common triggers you may not know are sensory challenges
[17:45] Oral seeking
[19:15] Picky eating
[26:30] Sensory integration and OT evaluation
[29:30] Adopting a sensory diet
[34:20] Noticing what your child needs
[37:30] Tips for parents who struggle getting kids dressed
[41:50] Knowing this isn’t a choice your kids are making
[45:05] Advice to their younger parent selves

With over 9 years of clinical experience, Rachel and Jessica are on a mission to help parents, educators, and therapists raise strong and confident children, no matter their abilities. They are passionate about taking clinical topics (such as Sensory Processing Disorder, primitive reflexes, sensory diets, and more) and breaking them down in a way that is actionable for anyone to benefit from.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Summit: www.sarahrosensweet.com/summit

Connect with Rachel and Jessica

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/harklaproducts/
Instagram: www.instagram.com/allthingssensorypodcast
Instagram: www.instagram.com/harkla_family
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melindawennermoyer
https://harkla.co/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Melinda Wenner Moyer joins me to talk about her book, and a range of topics around bullying, raising kids that aren’t selfish, and how to help our kids develop self esteem.

We talk about:

[4:40] How Melinda and I met, and an introduction to her book
[7:40] The most surprising thing she learned while researching for her book
[12:45] Bullying and the parents of kids who bully
[13:50] Increasing our kids’ theory of mind skills
[17:30] Raising kids that aren’t selfish
[19:50] Leaning into conversations with your kids that you don't want to have
[22:10] The message we send when we don’t talk about race and gender
[33:00] Can your child develop narcissism by bolstering their self-esteem too much?
[36:20] How kids are affected by pressure applied by parents
[40:35] Why parents care more about hitting milestones than their child’s happiness
[44:00] Advice she would give to her younger parent self

Melinda Wenner Moyer is a science journalist based in Cold Spring, New York. She's a regular contributor to The New York Times, a contributing editor at Scientific American magazine, and a faculty member in the Science, Health & Environmental Reporting program at NYU’s Arthur L. Carter Journalism Institute. Her first book, How To Raise Kids Who Aren’t Assholes, was published in July 2021 and won a gold medal in the 2022 Living Now Book Awards.

Melinda was the recipient of the 2022 Excellence in Science Journalism award from The Society for Personality and Social Psychology, the 2019 Bricker Award for Science Writing in Medicine, and her work was featured in the 2020 Best American Science and Nature Writing anthology.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Melinda

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melindawennermoyer/
Instagram: www.instagram.com/melindawmoyer
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melindawennermoyer
www.melindawmoyer.substack.com
www.melindawennermoyer.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, we dive into the world of neurodivergent parenting with Jaya and Priya. We explore their backgrounds and the vital work they do in this space, shedding light on the essence of neurodivergence.

They share their motivations behind writing "Parenting at the Intersection" and discuss challenges they face as neurodivergent parents. We also delve into themes like normalizing emotional overwhelm, the link between parenting, supremacy, and capitalism, and empowering individuals to navigate external influences.

Plus, discover hidden wisdom within children's behaviors and practical strategies for tough moments, all while receiving heartfelt advice from our guests to their younger parent selves.

We talk about:

[3:30] Jaya and Priya’s background and work in this space
[5:55] The definition of what we mean when we say neurodivergent
[10:25] What made them want to write Parenting at the Intersection
[16:50] Challenges they face parenting while neurodivergent
[23:20] Normalizing emotional overwhelm and big emotions
[28:10] Big ideas from their book in terms of the correlation between parenting, supremacy and capitalism
[31:30] How to help people tune into their own wisdom when influenced by outside factors, especially when influenced by fear
[35:30] The wisdom or medicine in your child's behaviors
[38:25] Specific practices to use when things are particularly challenging
[43:30] Advice to their younger parent selves

Priya Saaral is a mama, a play therapist, and a parenting coach in the Greater Seattle area. She also identifies as neurodivergent and a first-generation immigrant settler. Her work is centered on helping young people and parents find their voice and their playful spirit amidst personal and structural adversity, seeking to be seen and to belong. Priya herself was in this space too, and her own experiences of strength and hardship motivated her to help all children feel seen and heard as valuable human beings in society, and as agents of change. When she's feeling playful, you may likely find her engrossed in a jigsaw puzzle, on the wrestling mat with her son, or replenishing her cup by exploring South Indian Classical and Jazz music forms.

Jaya Ramesh is a cis, immigrant, neurodivergent woman of color, who holds caste, class, and education privileges. She currently resides on the unceded lands of the Duwamish peoples. Jaya's passions revolve around creating liberatory healing and learning spaces while actively working to disentangle from and dismantle systems of oppression. She identifies herself as a truth-teller and facilitator, driven by a deep passion for unlocking the stories waiting to be shared, both within herself and among others.

In her private practice, Jaya supports BIPOC and neurodivergent individuals in cultivating more authentic and nourishing relationships. She shares her life with her partner of 18 years, and together they are raising two neurodivergent children and a puppy. Jaya's interests encompass reading novels, practicing vipassana meditations, challenging herself with strenuous hikes, indulging in long naps, passionately singing 80's tunes at karaoke, preparing elaborate dinners, and taking leisurely strolls with her family.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Parenting at the Intersections: Raising Neurodivergent Children of Color https://amzn.to/3RgeM77

Connect with Priya and Jaya

Instagram: www.instagram.com/parent.village
Instagram: www.instagram.com/parenting.at.the.intersections
www.play-it-out.com
www.parentvillage.me

Connect with Jaya

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jayarameshlmhc
Instagram: www.instagram.com/Indigobunting1101
www.parentingattheintersections.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, I sit down for a coaching episode with Jessica, who is a mom of two.

We talk about the morning chaos, which many of us can relate to, especially as we get the hang of new routines and back to school. She also shares about her own triggers, internal stress, and letting go of the fear of disappointing our kids.

We talk about:

[3:20] Finding it hard to ask for support when stressed or overwhelmed
[6:20] Struggles and tips for getting up earlier
[8:45] Strategies to carve out special time
[11:30] Jessica's internal way of dealing with stressful mornings
[15:50] The natural consequences of being late
[18:05] The fear of disappointing our kids
[20:35] Jessica's transformation in my membership
[27:20] How can you motivate yourself in a more loving way
[31:10] Grounding practices to help regulate yourself
[34:00] One-month check in
[35:10] Working on our internal stress triggers on being late and setting new routines
[42:00] Triggers around being late

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Membership: www.sarahrosensweet.com/membership

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Dr. Devorah Heitner joins me to talk about raising kids in the era of technology, and different tools and strategies to implement, all while continuing to respect their privacy.

Dr. Heitner is the author of Screenwise: Helping Kids Thrive (and Survive) in Their Digital World and her book on navigating Privacy and Reputation with kids and teens, Growing Up in Public will be out in 2023 with Penguin Random House.

Her work has appeared in the New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and CNN Opinion. She has a Ph.D. in Media/Technology & Society from Northwestern University and has taught at DePaul and Northwestern. She is delighted to be raising her own teenager and she lives with her family in Chicagoland.

We talk about:

[2:55] Screenwise and Growing Up In Public
[9:50] Are there ways to track your kids without using phones
[11:50] Tracking kids over the age of 18
[13:00] When and why kids should get a phone
[17:25] Her philosophy on mentoring kids vs. monitoring kids
[21:20] How to do this without invading on our kids’ privacy
[24:10] Setting screen-free boundaries for kids without killing their social life
[28:00] Navigating school devices and wanting to have screen time limits
[31:15] Tracking your kids’ grades
[36:15] Advice she would give to her younger parent self

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Devorah’s Books

US: https://devorahheitner.com/growing-up-in-public/
Canada: https://www.amazon.ca/Growing-Up-Public-Coming-Digital/dp/0593420969 and: https://www.indigo.ca/en-ca/growing-up-in-public-coming-of-age-in-a-digital-world/9780593420966.html
Growing Up in Public: https://amzn.to/3OZNe4o
Screenwise: https://amzn.to/3OENSTl

Connect with Devorah

Twitter: https://twitter.com/DevorahHeitner
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/devorahheitnerphd/
Website: www.devorahheitner.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

Screenwise: Helping Kids Thrive (and Survive) in Their Digital World

View Details

In this episode, Julie Bogart joins me to talk about homeschooling: the positives, the challenges and advice for parents looking to potentially homeschool their children. We also discuss learning in general. You’ll want to listen to this whether you homeschool or send your kids to school!

Julie Bogart is the creator and proprietor of Brave Writer, an online writing and language arts program.

She holds a deep passion for writing, a genuine affection for children, and a strong appreciation for parents. Julie sees her involvement with these three aspects as a fortuitous and delightful convergence of her affections, which she experiences on a daily basis.

We talk about:

[6:20] Parents yearning for cooperation from their kids
[7:45] Why kids are craving self-loyalty
[13:35] Factors to consider when you're thinking about homeschooling
[15:40] My experience as a "failed homeschooler", and why it's ok
[19:30] Advice for parents who are homeschooling and feel like they can't get their kids to focus on schoolwork
[23:55] Have Julie’s grandkids been homeschooled?
[27:20] Why our best work as parents is to ensure happiness and reduce pressure
[31:35] Misconceptions about homeschooling
[33:10] Homeschooling vs. unschooling
[35:15] Kids who aren’t meeting the benchmark that the school system has set
[41:30] Advice for parents on how to support their child who doesn't like school
[45:55] Advice to her younger parent self

In her earlier professional journey, she invested time in the realm of professional writing, engaging in activities such as editing, ghostwriting, and freelancing. However, as her children approached the stage of transitioning from pencil control to self-expressive writing, Julie's inclination shifted towards coaching. This transformation was driven by her recognition that she found the most fulfillment in guiding and facilitating the emergence of original thoughts in others.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Julie’s Books

The Brave Learner: Finding Everyday Magic in Homeschool, Learning, and Life
Raising Critical Thinkers: A Parent's Guide to Growing Wise Kids in the Digital Age

Connect with Julie

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bravewriter
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ca/bravewriter/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/juliebravewriter/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/bravewriter
Website: https://bravewriter.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

The Brave Learner: Finding Everyday Magic in Homeschool, Learning, and Life

View Details

In this episode, Yael joins me to talk about her new book, as well as how to feel less guilty and overwhelmed in your parenting.

Yael Schonbrun is a clinical psychologist, assistant professor at Brown University, co-host of the Psychologists Off the Clock podcast, and author of Work, Parent, Thrive: 12 Science-Backed Strategies to Ditch Guilt, Manage Overwhelm, and Grow Connection (When Everything Feels Like too Much).

We talk about:

[3:30] The background of her book
[8:10] Advantages of working parenthood
[13:10] Work family conflict vs. work family enrichment & the three different paths
[16:15] Parenting guilt and shaming
[19:55] The function of guilt and evolution
[23:50] Acceptance and commitment therapy
[25:35] Unhooking from unhelpful labels
[31:35] Reinforcing that all parenting rolls are important
[34:45] What is subtracting
[40:05] A ‘stop doing’ list
[45:00] Advice to her younger parent self

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
https://www.wsj.com/articles/work-life-conflict-cant-be-solvedand-thats-a-good-thing-11593230460
https://www.washingtonpost.com/parenting/2022/11/17/working-parent-conflict-balance-mindset/
https://behavioralscientist.org/doing-less-is-hard-especially-when-were-overwhelmed/
Book: https://amzn.to/45cg2Mv

Connect with Yael

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/offtheclockpsych
Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrYaelSchonbrun
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/yaelschonbrun/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yaelschonbrun/
Website: www.workparenthrive.com / www.offtheclockpsych.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, I’m answering a listener's question whose eight year old daughter hates school.

As some parts of the country are going back to school now, we are all getting ready to start that season again. Listen in for tips on how to navigate this question and support your kiddo through this challenging moment.

We talk about:

[1:25] This episode’s listener question
[3:20] Troubleshooting the root cause of ‘I don’t want to go to school’
[6:15] Is the school a good fit for your child?
[6:50] Is school too easy?
[8:50] What to do if your child needs an evaluation
[10:20] Suggestions for kids that are homebodies
[12:50] Pinpointing anxiety
[14:20] Resources for anxiety

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Anxious Kids Anxious Parents by Lynn Lyons: https://amzn.to/3tF6Qj2
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

Anxious Kids, Anxious Parents: 7 Ways to Stop the Worry Cycle and Raise Courageous and Independent Children

View Details

Today we have a different kind of conversation for you. It’s not an episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast but instead it’s an episode of the Calm the Chaos Podcast hosted by my friend Dayna Abraham.

She will share everything you need to know about surviving challenging behavior from your kids, as well as her four step Ride the Storm Plan that can help you survive the eye of the storm and remain calm during your kids' challenging behavior.

Dayna is the founder of the Calm the Chaos® Framework, best-selling author of The Superkids Activity Guide to Conquering Every Day and founder of the popular blog, Lemon Lime Adventures.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Purchase Calm the Chaos: https://amzn.to/3QolM1s
Podcast: https://calmthechaospodcast.com/

Connect with Dayna Abraham

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lemonlimeadventures/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LemonLimeAdventures
Website: https://lemonlimeadventures.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, Sonali Vongchusiri joins me to discuss needs and boundaries for both parents and children.

In traditional parenting, we are taught that the needs of our children come after our own needs – but what if they can both co-exist together?

Sonali is a parent guide and the founder of the beloved Raising Your Strong-Willed Child series. She possesses a unique style that incorporates her own experiences as a sensitive, high-needs child who later became a parent to a highly sensitive, strong-willed child. Sonali combines heart-centered and empowering parenting approaches to help parents become aware of the underlying challenges causing unrest in their relationships. Her true passion lies in supporting parents to rediscover trust, connection, confidence, and delight in themselves and their bond with their child.

We talk about:

[4:50] Growing up as a highly sensitive child
[8:40] How Sonali supports parents as a parenting coach
[9:30] Understanding our needs and core values as parents
[12:40] M&M Respect
[15:00] Holding two ideas in our minds at the same time
[20:00] Acknowledging the ‘whole person’
[27:00] How acknowledging our child changes their response to us
[29:50] The ‘no’ game
[34:50] Investigating the ‘no’
[41:30] Empowerment through empathy
[46:35] Advice to her younger parent self

Highly sensitive and intuitive, Sonali finds breaking through barriers to be enjoyable. She believes in the wisdom and presence of both children and parents during their interactions. Originally from the US with Indian origin, Sonali now resides in Bangkok. Her albinism gives her a unique perspective, allowing her to see people in ways they might not see themselves.

In her free time, you can find Sonali jogging at the park or attending dance classes. She loves singing loudly while listening to music with her headphones on. Rain holds a special place in her heart, as she finds solace in the sensation of a downpour soaking through her clothes, enabling her to completely let go. Sonali and you will get along well if you share her love for chocolate and her aversion to mixing it with fruit. Most importantly, Sonali is living proof that repairing any fractured relationship with one's child is entirely possible.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
The Cove: https://www.forwardtogetherparenting.com/the-cove-sign-up

Connect with Sonali

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/forwardtogetherparenting/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/raisingyourstrongwilledchild/
Website: https://www.forwardtogetherparenting.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Dr. Alok Kanojia joins me to discuss video games and healthy gaming for our kiddos.

Dr. Kanojia is a Harvard-trained psychiatrist specializing in the intersection of technology x mental health. Also known as ”Dr. K” to millions of people on the internet, Dr. Kanojia is the co-founder of Healthy Gamer, a mental health platform that serves the gaming community.

He has inspired millions of people with online content while overseeing the mental health coaching of thousands of young people. He is widely regarded as the foremost expert on video game addiction and most prominent mental health authority for young people. When he’s offline, he’s usually traveling, gardening, or grilling with his family.

We talk about:

[3:05] Dr. K’s background in this space
[4:45] Video games for enjoyment vs. addiction
[6:15] What is healthy gaming?
[7:40] The brain on ‘gaming addiction’
[10:35] Does TV/screen time fulfill the same dopamine hit?
[12:25] How screens give the temporary appearance of regulation
[13:35] The impulse to check our phones
[15:15] Why kids meltdown each time the screen is taken away
[22:20] What kids can do instead of screen time
[27:10] Approaching conversations about this with your kids
[32:00] Guidelines for gaming in a healthy way
[37:00] Types of games to avoid
[41:25] The problem with multiplayer games
[44:00] Helping promote the balance of friends in life versus online

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/parentingcourse
https://www.healthygamer.gg/about/hg-parent

Connect with Dr. Alok

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/healthygamergg/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/dr_alokkanojia
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/healthygamer_gg/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/healthy-gamer/
Other: https://wa.me/message/S4EVN3BAM4TXE1
Website: https://www.healthygamer.gg

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Karen Young joins me on the Peaceful Parenting Podcast to talk about co-regulation, anxiety, and aggression that sometimes comes to light within our kiddos.

Karen began her career as a psychologist in private practice. She has worked extensively with children, teens and families, and in educational and organization settings. She has lectured and has a Masters in Gestalt Therapy. It is through her work with children, teens and families, that she learned the power of solid information when it is placed in the solid, loving hands of parents or any important person in the life of a child.

Karen created Hey Sigmund, an internationally popular online resource, as a way to provide contemporary, research-driven information on the art of being human, and being with humans.

We talk about:

[2:55] How she became an anxiety specialist
[5:10] Where to begin when it comes to anxiety and aggression
[8:25] Using recognition as a first step
[10:00] Regulating your own nervous system
[10:50] Using co-regulation
[17:00] Is repair most effective done immediately?
[19:20] How ‘soothing’ changes as kids get older
[20:25] Validating ‘anger’ as an emotion
[23:05] How kids learn what a threat is and isn’t
[27:30] Strategies for compassion when there's a meltdown
[31:05] Helping kids understand where their big emotions come from
[37:00] Tips for when kids refuse to use the strategies you've worked on them with
[43:50] Advice to her younger parent self

She is the author of four books, including the bestselling ‘Hey Warrior’ and ‘Hey Awesome’, which creatively assist children to understand and manage anxiety. The books have been translated into a number of languages and have sold more than 180,000 copies worldwide.

Karen lives in Australia and has two children and two stepchildren. Experience has taught her that people can do amazing things with the right information, psychology has something for everyone, jargon doesn’t, everyone has a story to tell, short bios are the longest to write, nobody has it all figured out and the best people to be around are the ones who already know this.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting

Connect with Karen

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/karenyoungheysigmund
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ca/heysigmund001
Twitter: https://twitter.com/hey_sigmund
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/karenyoung_heysigmund
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/KarenYoungHeySigmund
Website: https://www.heysigmund.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

I’m popping onto your podcast feed today to let you know I am hosting a free workshop on Thursday, July 27 at 8pm EST.

It’s called Peaceful Discipline: How to Get Your Kids to Cooperate Without Using Punishments and I would love for you to join me.

You can go and sign up for free at www.sarahrosensweet.com/freeworkshop.

If you can't make it live, I will have a replay available for you that you can watch later. If you’re there live, I will be answering all of your questions about discipline and how to get your kids to listen to you without using yelling, threats, bribes, punishment, all of those things that we don't want to use in peaceful parenting!

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, I take you through the eight pitfalls of peaceful parenting that I have learned through my coaching and parenting years.

If you’re feeling overwhelmed or lost in your own peaceful parenting journey, these pitfalls may be helpful in helping you reframe your mindset, find community, and validation in your feelings.

We talk about:

[3:25] Getting caught up in the 'shoulds'
[6:20] Not thinking long term
[9:25] The firmness of kind, firm limits
[12:10] Feeling ignored and getting frustrated
[14:45] Not having a community and feeling alone
[16:25] Not being intentional about limits
[19:45] Setting a limit as a punishment in disguise
[23:40] Being too hard on ourselves

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Free workshop: www.sarahrosensweet.com/freeworkshop
Membership waitlist: www.sarahrosensweet.com/membership

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Seth Perler joins me to unpack executive function, what to be on the lookout for, and how to help parents become more aware of hidden red flags.

Seth Perler is an educational coach and advocate for students with executive functioning challenges, such as ADHD and learning disabilities. He offers coaching, resources, and strategies to help students improve their organization, time management, and study skills.

We talk about:

[3:55] Seth’s journey into this work
[6:55] What is executive function
[14:25] Potential red flags when it comes to executive function that parents should be on the lookout for
[17:15] Creating the scaffolding to get out of being our children's executive function
[22:10] ‘Can’t vs. Won’t when it comes to motivation and changing behavior
[29:45] Remembering that kids want to do well
[31:30] Unpacking attachment theory
[32:30] Understanding classroom behavior – why kids want to be seen and heard
[34:35] Being shamed at school
[39:00] Seth’ framework: Systems, Mindsets, and Habits & Routines
[42:25] Helping a kid who is meeting you with resistance
[49:40] One thing Seth wishes all parents knew

As you can read on his website, Seth Perler struggled with his own executive functioning challenges throughout his academic journey. He experienced difficulties with organization, focus, and productivity, which led to academic setbacks. However, he eventually developed strategies and techniques that helped him overcome these challenges and achieve success.

Seth Perler now shares his insights and expertise through his website, blog, coaching sessions, and online courses. His goal is to support students, parents, and educators in understanding and addressing executive functioning difficulties to unlock their full potential.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting

Connect with Seth

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/ShineOnEducation
Executive Function Summit: https://executivefunctionsummit.com/
Website: https://sethperler.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Emma Nadler joins me to talk about building compassionate relationships and community, especially as parents.

Emma Nadler is an author, speaker, and psychotherapist. In her private practice, she helps people better understand and tolerate emotions, build deeper relationships, and find meaning in life's challenges. She is passionate about transforming her own experiences as a parent of a child with disabilities into empathy, compassion, humor, and stories.

Her memoir, The Unlikely Village of Eden, is about learning to adapt and accept when life doesn’t go to plan, redefining community, and creating your own imperfect path.

We talk about:

[4:35] What her book is about
[5:40] Bucking cultural norms
[9:50] Feeling of perfection and the expectations we have of parenthood
[13:10] Advice for parents that feel like they're a failure
[14:45] Listening to each other with compassion
[17:30] Saying yes to people who are wanting to give connection
[22:00] Advice for parents who feel they do not have a community
[24:30] Building and using community
[30:30] Her own personal grief journey
[34:00] What helps Emma in the moments of being hard on herself for not being "perfect"
[38:00] Advice to her younger self

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Book: https://amzn.to/3Js1BLt

Connect with Emma

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmanadlerwrites/
Website: www.EmmaNadler.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Linda Murphy joins me to discuss how to develop better communication between kids and parents.

Linda is a speech language pathologist and RDI® Consultant. She co-founded Peer Projects Therapy From the Heart, a clinic in Beverly, MA dedicated to helping kids and families by using a positive, thoughtful communication style that emphasizes understanding, patience, respect, and kindness. Linda has been working with individuals with social learning differences for over 25 years.

We talk about:

[3:15] How Linda got into this work
[4:40] What is declarative language
[10:40] What happens when a person is given a command
[14:55] Different strategies for kids who are rigid thinkers
[18:35] Giving kids processing time
[20:50] The balance between alternative thinking vs. giving kids notice of things changing
[25:30] Acknowledging the ‘communication dance’
[28:40] Strategies for modeling ‘black and white thinking’
[32:05] Voicing your moments of flexibility to help your kids
[34:00] What we can do as parents to help our kids to not be afraid of making mistakes
[38:55] Examples of declarative language vs. imperative language
[45:00] Advice to her younger parent self

She leads trainings on the topic of social learning, has authored Declarative Language Handbook, Co-Regulation Handbook, numerous articles, and co-authored the book Social Thinking and Me with Michelle Garcia Winner. Linda lives north of Boston with her husband and their two busy lovable boys.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Parent Workshops: https://www.declarativelanguage.com/8-week-workshops
Trainings for educators: https://www.declarativelanguage.com/trainings-for-professionals

Connect with Linda

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/declarativelanguage/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100057683280110
Blog: https://www.declarativelanguage.com/sunday-snippets-of-support
Website: https://www.declarativelanguage.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Beth joins me to talk about transforming our mindset around blame, removing the shame of parenting responses, and wanting a more peaceful home.

Beth is the mom of three kids, and her third child, Sophie, is one of our kids that we call “more” or “extra”.

Beth is relatively new to Peaceful Parenting, and is a member of my Peaceful Parenting membership. She wanted some more help with making sure that she was on the right track with Sophie, and we worked together to find solutions and tools to the challenges she was facing.

We talk about:

[4:10] About Beth and her three kids
[6:30] Sophie’s background and wanting a more peaceful home for her family
[10:15] Why rewards don't work
[12:55] What co-regulating is and why it’s important
[19:45] Being an intense person and peaceful parenting
[24:20] Meeting your child where they are
[35:10] What systems can you have in place for a child who loses things?
[37:30] Gardener and Carpenter metaphor
[38:45] Wanting to help your kids, but at what cost to the relationship?
[41:10] Four-week update
[45:25] The challenges around not wanting to help our kids “too much”
[47:20] Sensory triggers while getting dressed
[49:35] Shifting our mindset around ‘blame’
[52:20] How to be more patient when wanting quicker results

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Jonathon Reed joins me to talk about ‘the man box.’ The man box is the way we limit boys and men - and our relationships with them- with a rigid view about masculinityWe also discuss how as parents we can support our boys, help them tap into their emotions and help them to develop emotional health and intimacy.

Jonathon is Youth Program Manager with a nonprofit organization called Next Gen Men, which means he does workshops and presentations at schools, trainings for teachers, a Discord server and a summer camp program all about supporting boys’ wellbeing and challenging gender-based violence.

We talk about:

[4:05] How Jonathan got into this work, and why
[6:50] The lack of emotional intimacy boys grow up feeling they can't have with each other
[7:30] What's the man box
[11:20] Why it’s so hard to be outside of the man box
[15:55] How lack of emotional safety impacts boys and men
[19:45] The good and bad environments that sports offer boys
[22:50] Exposure to violence at a young age
[26:20] Why it’s hard for boys and men to ask for help
[28:45] What parents can do to keep their sons from being stuck in the man box
[32:55] Grounding in curiosity
[35:30] Encouraging boys to cry
[43:00] One thing Jonathan wishes all parents knew about toxic masculinity

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Boys and Sex by Peggy Orenstein
Wilderness-based summer rite of passage trips in Ontario and Alberta: https://nextgenmen.ca/expeditions
Online course on boys and masculinity for parents and educators: https://nextgenmen.ca/courses
Discord server for boys and masculine-exploring youth in Grades 7-9: https://nextgenmen.ca/club
Breaking the Boy Code podcast on the inner lives of boys: https://breakingtheboycode.com

Connect with Jonathan

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nextgenmen/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/boypodcast
Twitter: https://twitter.com/nextgenmen
Twitter: https://twitter.com/boypodcast
Facebook: http://facebook.com/nextgenmen
Podcast: https://breakingtheboycode.com/
Website: https://nextgenmen.ca

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Domari Dickinson shares her journey from traditional parenting to peaceful (or conscious) parenting. We explore the challenges and complexities of this transformative process, discussing practical strategies for repairing relationships and implementing conscious parenting principles in larger families.

We also talk about decolonizing the family's microsystem, and how to create a nurturing and inclusive environment for children. Domari also discusses her experience with unschooling.

Domari Dickinson is a parenting coach and mom of four who helps moms identify and break toxic parenting patterns. After working as an educator and instructional coach for over 15 years, Domari decided to use her teaching and curriculum design skills to create programs that provide parents with clear, easy-to-implement techniques to become more positive, purposeful, and effective parents.

We talk about:

[3:30] Conscious parenting vs. Peaceful parenting and how Domari got into this work
[6:10] The tricky part of shifting from traditional parenting to conscious parenting
[8:35] What gave Domari the confidence to trust peaceful parenting
[12:00] Advice for parents who are also on their peaceful parenting journey
[14:10] Acknowledging that we will mess up, and gain the tools to repair
[16:35] Conscious parenting in bigger families
[20:45] Carving out special time with each child
[23:10] Using scripts when dealing with difficult situations
[28:40] Helping parents navigate when they feel like what their child is upset about isn’t important
[30:45] Decolonizing the microsystem of the family
[33:10] How and why Domari started unschooling
[37:10] Advice for her younger parent self

Through her parenting programs, workshops, online challenges, and 1-on-1 coaching, Domari has helped countless parents across the United States navigate the everyday challenges of life with kids using proven, research-based strategies. She is passionate about building a community of women who are committed to challenging popular parenting norms as they groom their kids for success in a loving, peaceful, and respectful home environment.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Positive and Purposeful Parenting Tips: https://positive-purposeful-parenting.ck.page/43118fd9eb

Connect with Domari

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/domaridickinson/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/domaridickinson?lang=en
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@domaridickinson
Website: http://domaridickinson.com/collective/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Corey and I discuss our best tips for traveling with kids.

We know that traveling with our kids can be challenging, and there are tips and mindset hacks you can adopt and use in your own travel journeys. We cover meltdowns, setting expectations, routines, emotional backpacks, and more.

We talk about:

[2:25] Acknowledging that traveling with children is really difficult
[4:05] Important mindset tips for traveling with kids
[8:10] Planning your trip and keeping your schedule loose
[10:10] Letting your kids know what to expect and setting expectations
[11:15] Expecting meltdowns
[13:40] How to make traveling with your kids more pleasant
[23:50] Handling kids being out of their routine
[26:55] Helping them empty their emotional backpacks

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Lawrence Cohen joins me on the show to talk about how play and roughhousing can help you in your parenting.

We talk about everything from why we need to be playful, to aggression, to calming our kids down, and incorporating more fun and play into our days.

Lawrence J. Cohen, PhD, is a psychologist and the author of Playful Parenting and The Opposite of Worry. His newest book is Unplug and Play: The Illustrated Guide to Roughhousing with Your Kids, co-authored with Anthony Debenedet.

We talk about:

[5:50] How Lawrence got into this work, and about his new book
[6:45] The importance of roughhousing
[8:15] How Lawrence became a more playful parent
[11:15] Advice for parents who shy away from roughhousing and play
[19:20] Having ‘personal agency’
[21:20] Building self-determination of risk
[25:45] The Knot of Tension concept
[28:50] Handing unsavory behavior when it comes to play
[35:00] Responding to aggression with playfulness
[41:10] When ‘play’ turns aggressive
[45:50] Tips for getting play to stop
[49:35] What to do when your kid swears
[54:20] Lawrence’s advice to his younger parent self

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
The Opposite of Worry by Lawrence Cohen: https://amzn.to/3LFgyLI
Playful Parenting: https://amzn.to/427erpu
Unplug and Play by Lawrence Cohen: https://amzn.to/3AJzByl

Connect with Lawrence

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/Larrycohenplayfulparenting/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Larjack1
Website: www.playfulparenting.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

Playful Parenting: A Bold New Way to Nurture Close Connections, Solve Behavior Problems, and Encourage Children's Confidence

The Opposite of Worry: The Playful Parenting Approach to Childhood Anxieties and Fears

View Details

In this episode, Samantha, mom of two boys aged four and five, shares her journey of transitioning from traditional parenting approaches to Peaceful Parenting. She talks about how she struggles with her older son, who is more intense and requires a different approach.

Samantha talks about how hard it is for her to handle noise, conflict, sibling rivalry, and more.

We talk about:

[4:10] Samantha’s trigger around ‘noise’
[7:30] Handling rejection and being sensitive to language
[11:30] The difference between being sad and feeling sad
[13:25] Sensory processing challenges
[17:15] Navigating sibling rivalry alongside my online course
[22:20] Letting kids cry and encouraging tears
[26:20] Biting during meltdowns and tips to navigate them
[30:40] Using friends at school as teaching moments
[31:55] ‘Twice exceptional’ kids
[37:10] 3 week check in
[42:20] Major epiphanies Samantha has had
[47:20] Strategies to find self compassion

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
My Transform Your Family Life Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/parentingcourse

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Oliver Levy joins me to talk about mindful parenting. Plus since he’s a sports coach and a sports dad, as well as a parenting coach, I asked him about the peaceful approach to kids and sports.

Oliver Levy is the Ceo and Founder of MPTK. He became a parenting coach in 2016. He became a retired yeller in 2017. He no longer yells or raises his voice at his children. He retired as a parent in 2019. He is now a mentor to his children. Both him and his wife are living their best lives as parents and they are just loving it. He has been married to his beautiful Queen Lisa since 2007. He has 3 children (ages 29, 14, & 11).

Oliver has been there, in the same shoes as parents who struggled with temper tantrums, kids not listening, whining, sibling battles, co-parenting battles, teenager issues and more.

We talk about:

[4:10] The events that brought Oliver into this work
[7:15] His wife’s ultimatum that changed the course of his parenting
[8:35] Finding his way through his personal challenges to coaching parents
[11:35] The 12 laws of mindful parenting
[22:45] How to coach a kid who’s a bad sport
[24:30] Finding the root cause to our behaviors as parents
[28:15] How to use car rides to create open communication lines
[34:05] Tips for coaching your own kids
[37:30] How should kids be introduced to sports
[42:35] When you feel like your kids should be in sports or on a team, even if they don’t want to be
[46:00] How to handle your kids wanting to quit sports
[53:20] Advice to his younger parent self

The misbehaviors mentioned above caused him many challenges in his marriage. After having several meltdowns, and constantly yelling at home, he became determined to find a healthier, happier means of raising great kids without losing control.

This was the catalyst for developing Mindful Parenting Tools. He immersed himself in the study and principles of Adlerian Psychology and several child psychologists and parenting experts.

Oliver believes that trauma can affect kids when it comes to self-esteem, self-confidence, resilience, being respectful, taking responsibility and setting goals so they can create the life that they desire. He also believes that parents, teachers, sports coaches and other caregivers in the community must be equipped with modern-day parenting tools & strategies to avoid trauma in the home and in the community.

He is on a mission to equip 10 million parents with actionable steps so they too, can feel composed and confident when guiding their children to greater achievements with fewer frustration despite any past trauma.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
https://linktr.ee/Parentingtools

Connect with Oliver

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/MindfulParentingToolkit/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MindfulTool
Website: www.mindfulparentingtoolkit.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Corey and I sit down for a joint episode about when your child has a preferred parent (or not).

We talk about various ideas for sparking connection within your family unit, the normalcy of primary and secondary attachment, taking turns at bedtime, tips for bedtime routines, understanding how it feels to be the preferred parent, the importance of play, and effective communication as partners, and so much more.

GIVEAWAY

To help celebrate hitting 100 episodes, from May 3 to May 17, choose a podcast episode that you love, screenshot it, share it, and tag me or send it to me. We will enter you into our contest to win either one year in our Peaceful Parenting membership, access to My Transform Your Family Life online course or private coaching.

We talk about:

[4:20] Favorite ideas to help spark connection
[5:40] The normalcy with primary and secondary attachment
[8:25] Taking turns at bedtime
[11:20] Tips for working up to bedtime routines
[13:50] What the non-preferred parent can remind themselves of
[17:20] How it feels to be the preferred parent
[23:00] The importance of ‘play’ and including both the preferred and non-preferred parent
[26:10] Communicating as partners

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Membership: www.sarahrosensweet.com/membership

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Lynn Lyons joins me on the podcast to talk about anxiety and how it shows up in adults and in our parenting.

Lynn has been on the podcast twice before – be sure to check out the other two episodes linked below once you’re done listening to this one.

Our conversation today centers around her new book, The Anxiety Audit, and she gives us tangible tips to transform our relationship with anxiety starting today.

We talk about:

[3:55] How Lynn got into this work
[5:20] About Lynn’s new book: The Anxiety Audit
[10:10] ‘Catastrophizing’ and its relation to anxiety
[15:10] How to handle anxiety as the aftermath of the last few years
[17:30] How to step out of anxious patterns
[22:55] Is ‘worry’ the rehearsal for tragedy?
[26:50] What to do instead of worrying?
[30:45] Using ‘business’ to mask anxiety
[34:55] Tips for reducing business and chaos
[37:50] Leveraging unstructured play
[49:30] Lynn’s advice to her younger parent self

Lynn is a psychotherapist, author and speaker in Concord, New Hampshire. She has been in private practice for 28 years, and specializes in the treatment of anxiety disorders in adults and children.

She travels globally as a speaker and trainer on the subject of anxiety, its role in families, and the need for a preventative approach at home and in schools.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Episode 35: www.sarahrosensweet.com/episode35
Episode 45: www.sarahrosensweet.com/episode45

Connect with Lynn

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/flusterclux/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LynnLyonsMSW
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPraoDm3VQl56hLah5DM4UA
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lynnlyonsanxiety/
Website: https://www.amaze.org

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, I have two special guests to talk about puberty and the changes our kids experience during this time.

First up is Rachael E. Gibson, PhD, MPH, MS, MEd (she/her/ella), the Senior Program Manager of AMAZE Education at Advocates for Youth. Dr. Gibson is an AASECT Certified Sex Educator based in Miami, Florida and Cape Town, South Africa and has taught comprehensive sexuality education all over the U.S. and the world.

Dr. Gibson talks about the specifics when it comes to puberty, the changes our kids go through on a physical, emotional and mental level, and how to help them navigate these changes as parents.

Our second guest is my teenage daughter, Maxine, who shares her experience getting her first period, going through puberty and having a ‘red party’.

We talk about:

[3:45] Defining 'puberty'
[4:40] Average ages of puberty today
[5:30] Common challenges kids have when going through puberty and how can we best support them
[8:10] How hormonal changes affect our kids’ emotions
[10:05] The social changes that come with puberty
[13:20] Helping kids understand ‘am I normal?’
[14:15] How we as parents can help our kids when they are getting unwanted attention
[17:55] Tips for talking about puberty with your kids to prepare them
[22:15] How to answer your kids’ puberty questions
[26:40] Celebrating ‘coming of age’ in different cultures
[29:25] Rachel’s advice to her younger parent self
[31:25] From my daughter’s perspective: what to keep in mind if you're scared about your kid going into puberty
[33:10] Are you worried your kids are going to turn into unrecognizable people?
[34:20] Does Maxine remember first learning about puberty
[37:20] ‘Red parties’ and why you should consider one
[40:20] What made it easier for Maxine when getting her first period

Dr. Gibson has over 20 years of experience in the health and sexuality education field, and currently serves on the SHAPE National Health Education Council. Prior to joining the AFY/AMAZE team, Dr. Gibson was an Instructional Coach and Content Specialist in the NYC Department of Education, Office of School Wellness Programs. Dr. Gibson also spent 17 years as a secondary health education teacher in California and New York.

In addition to her work with AMAZE and AFY, she is an adjunct professor in Widener University's Center for Human Sexuality Studies. Dr. Gibson's research examines the interactions between teacher and learner identities. Her most current work titled Learner experiences of teacher gender: Associations among gender and comfort in the sexuality education classroom, offers recommendation for pre- and in-service teacher training that includes strategies for meeting the perceptions of students in affective and culturally responsive ways.

Dr. Gibson holds a B.S. in Health Science from the University of Arizona, an MPH from California State University, Long Beach, a Master of Science in Educational Leadership from the City College of New York, and a MEd and PhD from Widener University’s Center for Human Sexuality Studies. In her free time, she is an avid hiker, dancer, and traveler.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting

Connect with Dr. Gibson

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amazeparents
Website: https://www.amaze.org

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, we take a look inside my membership community, which is currently open for enrollment.

Our conversation is a beautiful example of the support, love, kindness and guidance that you will receive within this community. We focus specifically on the challenges we face as parents – from handling our ‘extra’ or ‘more’ kids, to grieving the parenting journey we thought we would have.

We talk about:

[2:20] Introducing our parenting panel guests
[5:40] Realizing your parenting journey is not the experience you were expecting
[10:15] The challenges that come with parenting kids who are ‘extra’ or ‘more’
[20:40] Forgiving ourselves to the grief we feel
[26:15] Learning compassion for ourselves
[32:00] How our ‘extra’ kids show us how ‘extra’ we are
[39:30] Adapting and healing within
[46:55] Advice for parents who feel alone in their parenting journey
[53:30] Learning how to see yourself from your kid’s eyes

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Membership: www.sarahrosensweet.com/membership

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

Hey y'all, I'm jumping in here today, which is not my usual day to be in your podcast feed because I have a couple questions for you…

How are things going with you in your parenting? Are you feeling calm and confident? Are you feeling connected to your kids?

If the answer to that question is, ‘I think it could be better, I think I could feel more calm, more confident, and more connected...’

Then you should sign up for my free Peaceful Parenting Reset starting on Monday, April 10th.

Every day, Monday through Friday, starting Monday, April 10th, I am going to be sending you an email with an assignment for the day – which only takes minutes to do.

If you’d like to join us, you can by going to www.sarahrosensweet.com/reset

If you're listening to this at a time when the reset has already passed, you can still sign up for the waitlist to be notified the next time we offer it.

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Tosha Shore joins me to talk about what to do when your child is aggressive.

Most of us have been there – kids fighting over toys, hitting, sibling rivalry, or anger that seems to come out of nowhere. How do you handle it? Is there an effective way to deal with it?

She brings a burst of energy and optimism to parenting, and is an expert at simple solutions to what feel like overwhelmingly complicated problems.

Through her online community and courses, Tosha helps break the isolation of modern parenting and lifts your confidence so you’re better equipped to face the challenges of raising young boys.

We talk about:

[4:30] How Tosha got into this work
[5:50] Why kids get aggressive
[9:10] Meeting your child where they’re at
[13:00] How to stop your child’s aggression
[16:40] Common mistakes parents make when trying to end aggressive behavior
[23:15] What to do when the aggression seems to be impulsive
[32:00] How to handle being fearful of your child hitting or hurting you
[40:45] Sibling rivalry and aggression between siblings
[48:35] Lashing out after breaking toys
[51:15] How to know if you’re handling these situations correctly
[53:35] Figuring out our triggers
[57:25] When aggression comes out of nowhere
[59:25] What Tosha would tell her younger parent self

Tosha is the creator of all things Parenting Boys Peacefully, including “Parenting Boys Peacefully: A 10-Day Reconnect,” an online group experience shared by over 15,000 parents worldwide. She is also a trainer of Hand in Hand Parenting and co-author of “Listen: Five Simple Tools to Meet Your Everyday Challenges.” Tosha is also a frequent guest expert on podcasts and online and in-person conferences.

Oh! And if it makes you feel better, Tosha’s got some letters after her name…She holds a BA in Women’s Studies & Language Studies from UCSC, an MA in Applied Linguistics and a certificate in TESOL from UCLA, and is a certified trainer of instructors in Hand in Hand Parenting.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Membership: www.sarahrosensweet.com/membership

Connect with Tosha

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/toshaschoreyourpartnerinparentingboys
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ToshaSchoreYourPartnerInParenting
Website: https://parentingboyspeacefully.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, we’re answering how to handle when your child says ‘I hate you’.

Of course, when we’re on the receiving end of this, it can feel painful to hear, so how do we navigate it and what can we do about it?

We talk about:

[1:30] Responding with ‘calm’
[2:40] Reminding yourself what you're seeing is the "fight"
[4:30] How to respond to the feeling that's driving the behavior
[8:00] What to do when this is a trigger for you
[11:20] Knowing that you're not alone
[12:35] What my daughter Maxine thinks parents should know about this
[15:20] The kind of reaction parents should have
[17:10] How to not take offense

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

In this episode, Sarah Moore joins me on the podcast to talk about what story teaching is, and why it’s important to focus on ‘play’.

We also touch on consequences, and natural consequences, when it comes to peaceful discipline.

We are also giving away a copy of Sarah’s new book. From March 22, 2023 to March 28, 2023, share a screenshot to your social media of you listening to this episode, tag me on either Facebook or Instagram, and be automatically entered to win.

Sarah R. Moore is the author of Peaceful Discipline: Story Teaching, Brain Science & Better Behavior and founder of Dandelion Seeds Positive Parenting.

As a Master Trainer in conscious parenting and Board Member for the American Society for the Positive Care of Children, she’s also a public speaker, armchair neuroscientist, and most importantly, a Mama.

We talk about:

[3:15] Sarah’s new book, Peaceful Discipline: Story Teaching, Brain Science & Better Behavior
[5:00] How trying improv can help parents
[6:50] How natural consequences play out in the real world
[9:10] Our limbic system reactions
[16:50] Why kids are wired to play, and how that’s actually okay
[25:35] What to do if you don’t ‘have time’ to be playful
[27:50] How to use Story Teaching in peaceful parenting
[34:40] Can kids really learn without consequences?
[40:50] Debunking the myth that peaceful parenting has no consequences
[44:00] What Sarah would tell her younger parent self

With training in child development, trauma recovery, interpersonal neurobiology, improv comedy and play, her work supports parents and caregivers around the globe.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Book: Peaceful Discipline: Story Teaching, Brain Science & Better Behavior by Sarah Moore

Connect with Sarah Moore

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dandelionseedspositiveliving/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DandelionSeedsPositiveParenting/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/DandelionSeeds5
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ca/dandelionseeds5/
Website: https://dandelion-seeds.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

Peaceful Discipline: Story Teaching, Brain Science & Better Behavior

View Details

This episode is a coaching call with Kate, the mom of 11-year-old James.

She initially reached out wanting some coaching around James’ tendency to be a bit socially anxious. As you’ll hear in our conversation, he was hesitant to talk to people in new situations and hesitant to speak out in class.

I coached Kate on some strategies that she could use to help James. When we have kids who are a little bit anxious or anxious at all, we as parents are the ones who are best situated to help them.

Be sure to stay until the end, as we check in with Kate two months later and hear how the strategies and suggestions went for her and James.

We talk about:

[3:40] The challenges James is facing when interacting with others
[6:30] Explaining the ‘worry brain’
[7:45] Getting your way into the worry brain
[8:50] Strategies to help kids understand the worry brain
[13:00] Our anti-anxiety phrase and recognizing the signs of anxiety
[17:45] How to get ‘buy-in’ from our kids
[19:00] Two-month check in
[20:20] How James is coping today

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Record a question: https://www.speakpipe.com/peacefulparentingpodcast
Anxious Kids Anxious Parents by Lynn Lyons

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
Website: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

After school can be a very difficult time! Our kids have full emotional backpacks, they’re hungry and cranky- hello, meltdowns!

How can we set ourselves up for success so that this overwhelming time of day can feel a bit easier? Corey and I give our best tips and strategies to navigate after school routines with ease!

We talk about the important role mindset plays, tips for ‘transition times’, homework, and much more.

We talk about:

[3:00] Getting yourself into the right mindset
[6:25] The best roughhousing solutions when you’re in a pinch
[9:05] Developing an emergency exit plan
[11:00] Transitioning to dinner time when kids may not be hungry
[15:35] Tips for making ‘walking out the door’ easier
[18:50] Thoughts on screen time after school
[25:20] How to fit homework into your after school routine
[29:00] One big tip to be that calmer parent during your after school routine

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Record a question: https://www.speakpipe.com/peacefulparentingpodcast
Taking the Stress Out of Morning Routines: www.sarahrosensweet.com/episode77
Bedtime Best Practices: www.sarahrosensweet.com/episode86
Grab our cheat sheet: www.sarahrosensweet.com/afterschool
Hunt, Gather, Parent by Michaeleen Doucleff
Self-Driven Child by William Stixrud (PhD) and Ned Johnson

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

The Self-Driven Child: The Science and Sense of Giving Your Kids More Control Over Their Lives

View Details

In this episode, Rosalia Rivera joins me to talk about teaching children about body safety, boundaries and consent.

One of the key takeaways from our conversation is the importance of empowering children with knowledge and tools to recognize and communicate boundaries. Parents can help their children understand the difference between safe and unsafe touch, and good touch/bad touch.

When it comes to teaching children about consent, Rosalia suggests starting with modeling consent in everyday life. This can include asking for permission before giving a hug or sharing personal information. Additionally, parents can teach children about body literacy and the foundational blocks of sex ed in developmentally appropriate ways.

Balancing a child's natural curiosity with their safety is a delicate balance. Rosalia shares some strategies that can help parents strike this balance effectively. She also talks about the importance of reinforcing 'stranger danger' and building strong relationships with children.

Rosalia Rivera is a consent educator and child sexual abuse prevention specialist, sexual literacy advocate, TEDx speaker, Chair of SAGE (Survivor Advocates Globally Empowered) representing the BRAVE Movement, and the founder of CONSENTparenting™, the host of the AboutCONSENT™ podcast and creatrix of CONSENTwear™. She is also a CSA (child sexual abuse) survivor, turned thriver.

She helps busy parents go from fearful and anxious to confident and empowered, about teaching their kids about body safety, boundaries, and consent to prevent sexual abuse.

We talk about:

[3:10] How Rosalia helps parents teach their kids about body safety boundaries
[4:15] The greater risk for survivor parents when it comes to this work and having hard conversations with their kids
[7:25] Where to start when it comes to teaching about consent
[12:10] Teaching kids about body literacy and the foundational blocks of sex ed
[12:50] The difference between safe and unsafe touch, and good touch/bad touch
[16:05] Helping kids learn that they should never say yes to something that doesn't feel good for them
[20:00] How to balance letting your child explore with also teaching concepts to keep them safe
[21:30] The opportunity to reinforce 'stranger danger'
[24:30] 'Grooming' signs and red flags
[29:55] Why kids with challenging relationships to their parents can often be easily targeted
[32:10] When would you explain what grooming is and what to be aware of
[35:55] Rosalia's advice to her younger parent self

As a CSA survivor and parent, from a family of survivors, she discovered how triggering it was to learn about abuse prevention when it was time to educate her own kids once she became a mother. Determined to break the intergenerational cycle of abuse, Rosalia dedicated herself to her healing so she could overcome the anxiety and triggers that kept coming up when learning about abuse prevention so she could teach her kids.

Rosalia is certified in the Canadian Centre for Child Protection® COMMIT TO KIDS® Child Sexual Abuse Prevention Training Program and is a Certified Facilitator of the Stewards Of Children® Training by Darkness to Light, as well as OnWatch™.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Private Part Safety Workshop: https://www.consentparenting.com/getting-started

Connect with Rosalia

On Instagram
On Facebook
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
https://aboutconsent.com/
https://www.consentparenting.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, Mark and Kanae, parents of two sons, aged five and three, join me to talk about the challenges they face together as partners in their relationship.

I first met Mark through my Transform Your Family Life Online Course (www.sarahrosensweet.com/parentingcourse), which is now open for enrollment and starts on Wednesday, March 1st. If you are listening to this episode after that, you can always get on the waitlist to be notified the next time it opens.

Learn how to transform your communication and your family life in this conversation with Mark and Kanae.

We go into:

[5:30] The big transformation Peaceful Parenting brought Mark and Kanae
[11:15] The challenges Mark and Kanae are facing parenting as partners
[13:30] Having a hard time being on the same page
[18:15] Empathy and shame and how they go hand in hand
[19:20] Challenging each other on not empathizing enough
[25:30] Projecting our own fears and insecurities onto our parenting
[28:50] Why being hard on your kids won't make them not do that "bad" behavior again
[34:20] Breaking down old communication patterns in relationships
[43:15] Knowing and understanding that your partner is always worthy and loveable
[45:00] Acknowledging criticism and how partners should be supporting each other
[50:30] Mark and Kanae’s check in
[52:40] How diving into past stories and bringing them to the surface has transformed their parenting today

Resources mentioned in this episode

FREE How to Stop Yelling Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Book coaching or a free consult: www.sarahrosensweet.com/coaching
Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Transform Your Family Life Online Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/parentingcourse
The Gardener and The Carpenter by Alison Gopnik: https://amzn.to/3YFnRXW

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

The Gardener and the Carpenter: What the New Science of Child Development Tells Us About the Relationship Between Parents and Children

View Details

I’m popping onto your podcast feed today to let you know I am hosting a free workshop on Wednesday, February 22 at 8pm EST -OR- Friday, February 24 at 12pm EST.

It’s called Peaceful Discipline: How to Get Your Kids to Cooperate Without Using Punishments and I would love for you to join me.

You can go and sign up for free at www.sarahrosensweet.com/freeworkshop.

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, I answer 3 listener questions.

How do you stay calm when you were raised with hitting, yelling and punishing?

What do you say when your child has a negative attitude, even after a fun activity?

How do you stop a toddler from throwing food off the high chair?

So, grab a cup of tea, get comfortable, and join me as we navigate the ups and downs of parenting and your most pressing questions.

We talk about:

[2:20] Changing our mindset around hitting and punishment when growing up in a heated household
[5:25] Feeling unworthy because how we were raised
[11:20] What to do if your kid has a negative outlook towards life
[15:00] How to help a dysregulated, tired child
[18:10] How to get your toddler to stop throwing food from the highchair

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Record a question: https://www.speakpipe.com/peacefulparentingpodcast
Self-Compassion break: https://peacefulparents.kartra.com/page/self_compassion_break

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, Celeste and Jen join me on the podcast to talk about supporting LGBTQ kids, specifically if you’re part of a religion or way of living that does not affirm them.

Since then, Mama Dragons has grown to become a leader in affirming parent education and offers support to more than 9,000 members worldwide.

We talk about:

[6:50] What is Mama Dragons
[11:50] How Jen found out her son was gay, and what she did to navigate it
[15:20] The physical effects of coming out of 'fight, flight of freeze' mode
[19:10] The difference affirming parents make, and how you can affirm a child
[22:10] Parenting practices to adopt
[24:30] What Jen wishes she knew about raising a gay son
[26:30] What Jen has learned working with Mama Dragons
[29:10] The impact of growing up in a religious setting
[31:50] The importance of doing your own research and not getting caught up in misinformation
[33:10] Why people so threatened by the idea of LGBTQ people
[38:35] Advice both Celeste and Jen would give to their younger parent self

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Learning program Parachute - https://parachute.mamadragons.org/
Get free Parachute courses using the code PEACEFULPARENTING

Connect with Mama Dragons

On Instagram
On Facebook
On Twitter
On YouTube
https://www.mamadragons.org/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, Lian joins me for a coaching call to discuss the challenges she’s facing with her four-year-old son.

Her son has been using swearing to communicate his frustration and big feelings. Lian also shares how his frustration often escalates from mean words to physical aggression.

I give her tips and strategies to help transform her son’s approach and behavior, and we make a plan for Lian and her husband moving forward. Be sure to listen in until the end to hear our check in.

We go into:

[0:50] What to do if your child uses profanity excessively
[3:50] How Lian has tried putting limits on this issue so far
[6:10] Why we can't ignore troubling behavior
[10:40] What to do if the behavior isn't due to lack of attention
[12:50] The shame we feel as parents when our kids do something humiliating
[18:10] The 'good' vs. 'bad' parent dichotomy
[20:45] Why the naughty behavior hasn't crossed over into other areas of Lian's son life
[23:50] How to handle your kid hitting you
[30:45] Tips for helping your child empty their emotional backpack
[36:05] How hard parenting really is on a marriage
[38:00] Check in with Lian
[42:15] Tips for empathizing with our kids
[48:00] Keeping an aggression log
[56:30] Why we should never ignore a child when they're upset

Resources mentioned in this episode

FREE How to Stop Yelling Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Book coaching or a free consult: www.sarahrosensweet.com/coaching
Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Playful Parenting by Larry Cohen: https://amzn.to/3Dj49IY
Raising Human Beings by Ross Greene: https://amzn.to/3yvOgg6

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

Raising Human Beings: Creating a Collaborative Partnership with Your Child

View Details

What are bedtime best practices?

We know how challenging bedtime can be, and in this episode, Corey and I give our best tips and strategies to navigate it with ease and a big dose of self compassion!

We talk about separation anxiety, how to be supportive partners to one another, creating bedtime and morning routines, and so much more.

We talk about:

[2:30] Mindest tips around bedtime
[6:05] Why it’s okay to want to help
[8:50] How to set yourself up to be in a better space mentally before bedtime
[11:00] Starting your bedtime routine in advance
[13:30] Getting energy out before bed
[16:45] Creating a nighttime routine
[18:50] Keeping kids accountable to their routine
[25:10] Make the bedroom ‘bed-able’
[32:30] The separation that comes with bedtime
[44:00] Giving your kids a container of time to talk at bed time
[52:10] Taking turns putting the kids to bed

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Rest, Play, Grow by Deborah McNamara: https://amzn.to/3QU9o7C
Infographic: https://macnamara.ca/portfolio/info-graphic-when-saying-goodnight-is-hard-20-ways-to-bridge-the-nighttime-distance/
Bedtime Cheat Sheet: www.sarahrosensweet.com/bedtime

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

How do we repair our inner child? How is it similar (or different) from reparenting ourselves?

In this episode, Dani Faust joins me to talk about inner child work, its impact on our parenting techniques, and how to learn manifestation techniques to give you the life you truly desire.

Dani is a dynamic hypnotherapist, energy healer and intuitive mindset coach that is passionate about helping female entrepreneurs manifest their best lives and businesses. Her coaching blends brain science and positive psychology with spiritual mindbody practices like meditation, breathwork and reiki.

We talk about:

[3:10] How Dani got into the mindset and manifesting space
[5:40] What 'reparenting' is and why Dani doesn't like that word
[8:20] Examples of inner child work
[9:35] Strategies to look at why we react the way we do
[11:40] Questions to ask to figure out what your inner child needs
[17:00] Daily practice recommendations for healing your inner child
[25:00] Manifestation tips for parents
[26:10] Strategies to fill the gap between your present experience and your dream reality
[27:20] What gets in the way of people leveling up when it comes to manifestation
[33:10] Dani's advice to her younger parent self

Dani also hosts the podcast, Manifest It, Sis! She holds multiple coaching and energy healing certifications, a BS in Health/Psychology and is pursuing an MS/EdD in Performance Psychology.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Dani’s free 5-day Manifesting Breakthrough Challenge: bit.ly/manifestin5

Connect with Dani Faust

On Instagram
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
On Facebook
www.danifaust.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this coaching call with Erin and Wade, we discuss what to do when you’re feeling burnt out as a parent.

Erin and Wade are parents to ‘extra’ or ‘more’ children, each bringing their own set of quirks to the family dynamic. After years of challenging situations and not much support. Erin and Wade are burned out.

Be sure to listen to the end for our check in to see how the tips and strategies worked for them.

We go into:

[4:00] The ‘extra’ challenges Erin and Wade experience with their three kids
[6:55] How occupational therapy has helped
[9:10] What it looks like when their son wakes up dysregulated
[10:50] Dietary challenges when it comes to SPD
[28:50] How Erin and Wade navigate feeling burnt out
[36:20] Balancing special time and perfectionism
[43:25] Part 2: Update around food, meal time and occupational therapy
[51:20] How Erin and Wade have been caring for themselves as parents

Resources mentioned in this episode

FREE How to Stop Yelling Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Book coaching or a free consult: www.sarahrosensweet.com/coaching
How to Help Your Perfectionist Kid with Sarah and Corey: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/episode71/
How to Overcome Picky Eating with Jennifer House: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/episode49/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

How do we navigate rough times as a family?

Life is unpredictable and will certainly throw us curve balls when we least expect it. How do we dig deep to find our inner resilience in these moments, and how do we grow together with compassion and empathy?

Joining me for this conversation is Casey O’Roarty, Med, a facilitator of personal growth and development.

For the last 15 years, her work has encouraged parents to discover the purpose of their journey, and provided them with tools and a shift of mindset that has allowed them to deepen their relationship with themselves and their families.

We talk about:

[6:25] Learning to navigate her daughter’s anxiety and depression through highschool
[15:45] Finding out her husband had cancer
[24:20] Recommendations for parents who may be in a similar situation
[30:55] Standing by the ‘positive discipline’ framework
[38:45[ How to take care of yourself so you can show up as the parent and partner you want to be
[42:40] What Casey would tell her younger parent self

Casey is a Positive Discipline Lead Trainer and Coach. She hosts a podcast, parenting summits, live and online classes, and individual coaching at www.joyfulcourage.com. Her book, Joyful Courage: Calming the Drama and Taking Control of YOUR Parenting Journey was published May 20th, 2019. Casey lives in the Pacific Northwest of the United States with her husband, and two teenagers.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/joyful-courage-a-conscious-parenting-podcast/id996079418

Connect with Casey O’Roarty

On Instagram
On Facebook
www.besproutable.com/teens

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

One of the hardest and scariest parts of parenting is learning how to navigate substance abuse and dependency within our kids.

Of course we don’t want our kids to use drugs or alcohol- and we know we can’t control them.

So in a society with rising dependency on harmful substances, how can we help our children stay safe and make conscious choices?

Joining me for this conversation is Jessica Lahey, the author of the New York Times bestselling book, The Gift of Failure: How the Best Parents Learn to Let Go So Their Children Can Succeed and The Addiction Inoculation: Raising Healthy Kids in a Culture of Dependence.

We talk about:

[3:05] How Jessica came to write her new book
[5:50] Using authoritative parenting styles to help kids not develop substance abuse problems
[12:20] The important role connection to parents plays in kids growing up
[15:30] Jessica’s perspective on giving children alcohol at home
[20:35] Where the ‘inoculation’ theory comes from
[29:05] Risk factors for teens
[34:35] How to handle if your kids ask if you've done drugs or alcohol
[39:35] The dopamine risk
[44:20] Post-pandemic statistics on drug and alcohol abuse
[46:05] How Jessica chose to raise her kids differently
[48:20] Jessica’s advice to her younger parent self

Over twenty years, Jess has taught every grade from sixth to twelfth in both public and private schools, and spent five years teaching in a drug and alcohol rehab for adolescents in Vermont, and serves as a prevention and recovery coach at Sana, a medical detox and recovery center in Stowe, Vermont. She has written about education, parenting, and child welfare for The Washington Post, The Atlantic, and her biweekly column “The Parent Teacher Conference” ran for three years at the New York Times.

She designed and wrote the educational curriculum for Amazon Kids’ award-winning animated series The Stinky and Dirty Show, and was a 2019 Pushcart Prize nominee. Jess holds the dubious honor of having written an article that was later adapted as a writing prompt for the 2018 SAT. She co-hosts the #AmWriting podcast from her empty nest in Vermont.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Purchase Jessica’s books here: https://www.jessicalahey.com/books

Connect with Jessica Lahey

On YouTube
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
On Facebook
https://www.jessicalahey.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

What is social justice parenting?

How do we teach our children about social justice and help them understand and develop into kind, empathic and understanding adults?

What can we do as parents to help our children understand the importance of social justice?

Dr. Traci Baxley is a professor, consultant, parenting coach, speaker, and mother to five children. She is the creator of Social Justice Parenting™ and the author of Social Justice Parenting: How to Raise Compassionate, Anti-Racist, Justice-minded Kids in an Unjust World.

We talk about:

[2:40] What is Social Justice Parenting
[4:30] How to raise pro-justice children
[13:30] Reconciling the idea that people are ‘good’, even when we don’t see eye to eye
[16:00] Is it ok to keep our kids in the dark on social justice movements?
[28:10] The impact of sexism
[33:40] Traci’s advice for her younger parent self

Dr. Baxley has been an educator for over 30 years with degrees in child development, elementary education, and curriculum & instruction, she specializes in belonging, diversity and inclusion, anti-bias curriculum, and social justice education. As a diversity, equity, and inclusion consultant, Dr. Baxley supports organizations and corporations in developing inclusive practices and policies that lead to workplace belonging and high productivity.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free ‘How to Stop Yelling’ Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Traci’s Course Link: https://tracibaxleyconsulting.thinkific.com/courses/copy-of-social-justice-parenting-course
Book Club Question Guide: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aBoOo40UprOR1jg_EMowZO36WILvgKN4/view

Connect with Dr. Traci Baxley

On Instagram
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
On Facebook
www.socialjusticeparenting.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

How do we enjoy the holidays with our kids without worrying about if they’re being grateful enough for all they have?

How do we navigate gift-giving when trying to raise more conscious kids?

I know sometimes it can feel overwhelming. We may worry about the impact that gift-giving can have on our kids as they get older.

I brought on my three kids, Maxine, age 15, Asa, age 18, and Lee, age 21, to talk about the holidays when they were younger vs. now help parents navigate this with their own children.

This episode is a rerun from last season, and it also features a parent question about gratitude and gift giving for our kids.

We talk about:

[2:20] Listener question about showing appreciation for receiving a gift
[3:50] The emotional side of gratitude
[8:05] The fear that our children will become entitled
[11:05] Learning appreciation and gratitude over time
[14:45] Acknowledging the privilege of receiving presents
[17:45] How Maxine views giving and receiving gifts
[27:25] How Asa views giving and receiving gifts
[33:50] How Lee views giving and receiving gifts

Resources mentioned in this episode:

https://www.speakpipe.com/peacefulparentingpodcast
www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this coaching call with Michelle, we talk about sibling rivalry issues when peaceful parenting hasn’t always been the method of parenting for both kids AND when one child has more intense needs than the other.

Michelle is a mom of two girls, 11 and seven years old. Her younger child, Q, is one of those kids that we call ‘more’ or ‘extra’, and really requires more energy and attention than her older child. What’s interesting is that the problem Michelle thought she had wasn't actually what we ended up working on. Have a listen!

We go into:

[4:40] Anger in siblings when big emotions come up
[8:00] Handling conflict when your kids don’t want to talk about it
[17:30] The benefit of showing empathy and speaking kindly
[20:15] Helping our kids through name calling and other unkind acts
[27:30] Dividing our attention to all kids
[32:40] One month check in

Resources mentioned in this episode

FREE How to Stop Yelling Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Coping Skills Checklist by Janine Halloran: https://www.janinehalloran.com/free
Sibling Best Practices: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/e-book-stop-kids-fighting/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Stuart Shanker to understand our children’s challenging behaviour. We discuss why children act the way they do sometimes and what we can do about it.

Dr. Shanker explains the 5 domains or areas where stress shows up in our and our children’s lives. We discuss how we can be ‘stress detectives’ to help reduce challenging behaviour.

We go into:

[4:45] Why misbehavior is stressed behavior
[9:10] The difference between self control and self regulation
[12:50] The 5 categories of stressors
[23:00] Is misbehavior intentional?
[30:00] Tips for parents to help reduce stressors
[42:00] Biggest stressors parents are faced with today
[44:10] Spirited kids vs. stressed out kids
[50:30] Why there’s an uptake in sensory issues
[54:00] Dr. Shanker’s advice to his younger parent self

Dr. Shanker is also the founder and visionary of Self-Reg Global. Self-Reg Global has now been created to meet the demand to establish similar Self-Reg initiatives in the international community.

The goal of Self-Reg Global is to provide parents and educators around the world with the tools needed to raise healthy and vibrant children; and to provide adults and seniors with a powerful method for enhancing their own well being.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Leave your questions here: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/podcast/
Free Stop Yelling Course: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling/
Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting
Self-Reg Infosheet for Parents: https://self-reg.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/infosheet_SelfRegParents.pdf
Self-Reg Book written by Dr. Stuart Shanker: https://amzn.to/3V30gyC
Blog written by Dr. Stuart Shanker: https://self-reg.ca/no-such-thing-as-a-bad-kid/
Self-Reg Global website: https://selfregglobal.com/about/

Connect with Dr. Stuart Shanker

https://www.instagram.com/self_reg/
www.twitter.com/StuartShanker
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-mehrit-centre-ltd-/
https://www.facebook.com/SelfReg/
https://selfregglobal.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

Self-Reg: How to Help Your Child (and You) Break the Stress Cycle and Successfully Engage with Life

View Details

In this episode, Stoney joins me on the podcast to answer a listener question about creating stress-free morning routines.

Stoney is one of the peaceful parenting coaches on my team, and has great advice for you to implement to make your mornings more productive.

We go into:

[2:40] Stoney’s experience and work as a peaceful parenting coach
[3:35] This episode’s listener question
[6:35] Starting your bedtime routine as early as possible
[9:20] Setting yourself up for success the next morning
[13:00] Using a picture schedule
[17:40] Simplifying breakfast time
[18:25] Using ‘play’ when we can
[26:40] Having the same wake time (even on weekends)

Resources mentioned in this episode

Leave your questions here: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/podcast/
Free Stop Yelling Course: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling/
Morning Routine Tips: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/mornings/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

Today we have a different kind of conversation for you. It’s not an episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast but instead it’s an episode of the Tilt Parenting Podcast hosted by Debbie Reber. Debbie’s show is all about parenting differently wired kids.

The episode that we’re sharing with you today is one that I really enjoyed listening to. It's with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson, who is one of the authors of the Power of Showing Up, written alongside Dr. Daniel Siegel.

This episode talks about the Four S’s of showing up for your kids. I know you will enjoy this conversation as much as I did, and please connect with Debbie and follow her podcast at the links below.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Free Video Series – 10 Things You Have To Know When You're Raising a Differently Wired Child: https://tiltparenting.com/10-things/
The Power of Showing Up by Dr. Tina Payne Bryson and Dr. Daniel Siegel: https://amzn.to/3EgEOz7
Tilt Parenting Podcast: https://tiltparenting.com/podcast-about-children-with-learning-disabilities/

Connect with Debbie Reber

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tiltparenting/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TiltParenting
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tiltparenting/
Website: https://tiltparenting.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

The Power of Showing Up: How Parental Presence Shapes Who Our Kids Become and How Their Brains Get Wired

View Details

In this coaching call with Candace, we talk about the challenges her daughter, Elgin, who is nine, has been facing socially.

Elgin has ADHD and is dyslexic, which has caused her to feel like an outsider at school, resulting in friendships dissolving.

Her mom, Candace, has been struggling to find ways to help her daughter cope through these changes, which is what we talk about today.

We go into:

[2:40] The support Candace is looking for
[4:40] How I supported my daughter through her ADHD diagnosis
[5:50] How the challenges Elgin is facing show up in her daily life
[14:30] Our own upbringings and how it impacts our kids
[18:20] Coaching our kids to stand up for themselves
[24:10] The pain parents face when their kids are being taken advantage of
[26:05] One-month check in

Resources mentioned in this episode

FREE How to Stop Yelling Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

Many of us worry that our child may not be securely attached. How can we understand the science behind attachment to better understand our kids and their needs? And how do we promote a secure attachment?

Joining me for this conversation is Bethany Saltman, author of Strange Situation: A Mother’s Journey Into the Science of Attachment. It’s inspired by the birth of her daughter in 2006, who she loved dearly, but feared she was failing.

Why? Because she was not the kind of mother she hoped to become. Bethany spent ten years teaching herself the science of attachment, traveling to labs, trainings, and archives, in an effort to try to discover what kind of mother she really was, and if she was good enough for her daughter.

What she learned changed everything about how she thought of herself, her childhood, and the nature of love.

We go into:

[2:25] Different attachment styles and why they’re important
[6:00] Where secure attachment comes from
[13:35] The power of attachment and repair
[14:20] Why people make such a big deal about attachment styles
[24:10] What Bethany learned through healing her insecure attachment style
[27:40] Advice Bethany would give to her younger parent self

Strange Situation: A Mother’s Journey Into the Science of Attachment, published in April, 2020 by Random House, is her first book.

Bethany is a bestselling book coach, helping writers envision and execute their books—from pitch, to platform, to proposal, to publication, to PR. , She is also an editor and researcher. Her work can be seen in magazines like the New Yorker, New York Magazine, Atlantic Monthly, Parents, and many others.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Find Your Unicorn Space by Eve Rodsky
Episode 63: Self-Compassion is the Key to Being Your Best Parent Self with Dr. Kristin Neff

Connect with Bethany

https://www.instagram.com/bethany_saltman/
www.twitter.com/BethanySaltman
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethany-saltman-968207b7/
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100026627657984
https://www.bethanysaltman.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

Find Your Unicorn Space: Reclaim Your Creative Life in a Too-Busy World

View Details

In this episode, I’m answering questions I’ve received from you- my podcast listeners!

We have three listener questions:

What to do if you have a kid who runs away when you are out in public.
What to do when your child or children clearly prefer one parent over another.
What to do when your family openly and actively doesn't approve of your peaceful parenting choices.

We go into:

[2:30] What to do if your kid is a ‘runner’
[5:55] How ‘impulse control’ plays a huge role in our child’s ability to make decisions
[8:00] Tips to help kids strengthen their impulse control
[10:15] What to do when a child prefers one parent over another
[15:45] How to work on parent-child connection
[18:55] Navigating family who disagree with peaceful parenting
[25:00] Two important notes to remember from this episode
[27:00] Why we should never shame or judge each other’s parenting styles

Resources mentioned in this episode

Leave your questions here: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/podcast/
Special Time Guide: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/special-time-guide/
www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Episode #10: Being A Strong Leader: Your Feelings Are Not Your Child’s Problem
Free Stop Yelling Course: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this coaching call with Andrea, we talk about the struggles she has been having with her newly five-year-old son Emmett.

Andrea is the mom of a five-year-old boy and two-year-old girl.

We often talk about parenting strategies to help our sensitive kids, but what about sensitive parents? How do we cope with our strong-willed kids when we have our own full backpacks?

We go into:

[4:00] Examples of the intensity Andrea sees in her son
[11:10] How parenting impacts sensitive parents
[19:50] Part 2: How the suggestions worked for Andrea
[21:20] Why it’s counterintuitive to lean into the upset

Resources mentioned in this episode

www.sarahrosensweet.com/membership
NEW & FREE How to Stop Yelling Course: www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Coke bottle analogy: https://www.mamamia.com.au/the-coke-bottle-effect/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

What is SOGIE and why is it important for parents to understand when it comes to our kids? It’s an acronym that we’re exploring in this episode with Victoria Ogunleye.

We go into:

[1:50] What Amaze.org is
[4:00] What SOGI stands for
[5:35] What determines a person’s sexual orientation
[7:30] The difference between sexual orientation and gender identity
[8:20] Cysgender vs. transgender
[9:30] How to use pronouns
[14:40] The Genderbread Graphic
[19:55] Defining anatomical sex
[23:40] Sexual vs. romatic attraction
[26:25] The advice Victoria would want to remember if she ever has children

Victoria is the Digital Sex Education Manager at Advocates for Youth, where she works with the Communication and Sex Education team to drive AMAZE’s youth-facing digital strategy and manage the AMAZE Youth Ambassador program. Prior to joining Advocates for Youth, Victoria was the Health Education Coordinator at Planned Parenthood of Metropolitan Washington DC Inc, where she managed the organization’s peer education program and community health education program. Victoria has a background in intimate partner violence awareness, working with children with intellectual disabilities, and performing arts. As a former peer educator, she holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Health Science with a track in community health from Towson University.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Genderbread Graphic

Connect with Amaze

https://amaze.org/
https://www.youtube.com/c/amazeorg
https://www.tiktok.com/@amazeorg
https://www.instagram.com/amazeparents/
https://www.facebook.com/AMAZEparents
https://www.pinterest.ca/amazeorg/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, Corey Everrett and I talk about how to help your perfectionist kid.

From modeling behavior to normalizing imperfection, we cover a wide range of tools and techniques to help you in those hard moments.

Corey is one of the peaceful parenting coaches on my team. Corey Everrett is a certified peaceful parenting coach. She lives in a small-town East of Toronto with her two young children, husband, and rescue pup. Corey helps families find more joy and ease in their daily lives, by empathically empowering parents to better understand themselves and their children.

We go into:

[2:40] How to stay calm with kids make mistakes
[6:35] Modeling behavior for our kids to learn
[10:10] Why we shouldn’t try and fix what our kids create or do
[12:10] Helpful tools for doing the inner work and sharing our own mistakes
[14:15] Normalizing imperfection
[18:10] The growth mindset behind not being good at everything right away

Resources mentioned in this episode

Episode 69: Helping Kids Develop A Growth Mindset with Sheena Hill

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this coaching call with Dajana, we unpack the struggles she has been having with her middle son. Together, we dive into the nature of highly sensitive kids and strategies to help in highly emotional moments.

Dajana is a mom of three – a ten-year-old, a six and a half year old, and a three and a half year old.

We go into:

[1:30] What you will find inside my membership program
[4:00] The challenges Dajana is facing with her middle son
[6:35] How many daily upsets are “normal” for kids to experience
[8:40] How to tell if your child is highly sensitive
[15:30] Why it’s important to respond with empathy
[20:10] Tips for helping your child communicate what’s wrong
[25:45] Navigating ‘global catastrophic thinking’
[34:40] Two week check in

Resources mentioned in this episode

www.sarahrosensweet.com/membership
Rest Play Grow by Deborah MacNamara
Anxious Kids Anxious Parents by Lynn Lyons
Hey Warrior by Karen Young
Episode 44: Coaching Call with Julia: How to Help Sensitive Kids When They Get Upset

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

I’m popping onto your Podcast feed today to let you know I am hosting a free live five day reset starting on Monday, October 5, 2022.

You can go and sign up for free at www.sarahrosensweet.com/reset.

We all need a reset sometimes. If you've fallen off the wagon or if you're just getting started in peaceful parenting, this is your invitation to bring more intention and consciousness into the practice of peaceful parenting.

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

I’m popping onto your Podcast feed today to let you know I am hosting a free live five day reset starting on Monday, October 5, 2022.

You can go and sign up for free at www.sarahrosensweet.com/reset.

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

Growth mindset is the antidote to perfectionism and giving up. It’s believing “I can’t do it… YET”

How can we help our children develop a growth mindset?

What are the strategies? What do we do when our kids just want to give up?

This episode is a look into my membership community, and joining us is Sheena Hill, a psychotherapist in private practice as a Responsive Parenting and Holistic Sleep Coach. She is a passionate advocate for children, families, development, attachment, and trauma and has been working with families for almost 20 years.

We go into:

[6:45] Best practices when it comes to developing a growth mindset as it relates to parenting
[12:20] ‘Inviting’ your mistakes to the dinner table
[15:30] Shifting what ‘mistakes’ mean to us
[18:45] How to help our kids out of a negative mindset
[24:05] Tips for helping our kids when they’re spiraling
[28:40] When to know if something is no longer serving our kids
[32:40] What to do when the school environment isn’t supportive or peaceful
[39:25] Setting expectations for different stages of our kids’ lives

She holds a masters degrees in Social Work and Education and trainings/certifications in SPACE, Neuroscience, Strengthening Families Program, The Nurturing Parenting Program, Hand in Hand Parenting, child passenger safety, and babyproofing.

After nearly a decade in the non-profit world, she made the shift to private practice in order to begin homeschooling.

Resources mentioned in this episode

www.sarahrosenweet.com/newsletter
www.sarahrosensweet.com/reset

Connect with Sheena

On Instagram
On Facebook
Facebook Group
https://www.sheenahill.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

Growth mindset is the antidote to perfectionism and giving up. It’s believing “I can’t do it… YET”

How can we help our children develop a growth mindset?

What are the strategies? What do we do when our kids just want to give up?

We go into:

[6:45] Best practices when it comes to developing a growth mindset as it relates to parenting
[12:20] ‘Inviting’ your mistakes to the dinner table
[15:30] Shifting what ‘mistakes’ mean to us
[18:45] How to help our kids out of a negative mindset
[24:05] Tips for helping our kids when they’re spiraling
[28:40] When to know if something is no longer serving our kids
[32:40] What to do when the school environment isn’t supportive or peaceful
[39:25] Setting expectations for different stages of our kids’ lives

After nearly a decade in the non-profit world, she made the shift to private practice in order to begin homeschooling.

Resources mentioned in this episode

www.sarahrosenweet.com/newsletter
www.sarahrosensweet.com/reset

Connect with Sheena

On Instagram
On Facebook
Facebook Group
https://www.sheenahill.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this coaching call with Seodhna, we talk about the challenges that have popped up with her intense, sensitive, and strong-willed son.

Seodhna is the mom of 3 boys- ages 3, 6, and 8. She asked me for help with her oldest child, who often is quite challenging and demanding of her and her family.

We spoke on three separate occasions over the course of a year as she went through the process of getting a diagnosis for her son. We also came up with strategies to help them both during those very intense moments.

We go into:

[4:20] What it means to be ‘sensory seeking’
[7:55] Exercises Seodhna does with Ronan thanks to occupational therapy
[15:30] Introducing laughter and roughhousing to help unpack a full emotional backpack
[25:45] ‘Masking’ as it relates to autism
[37:20] Check in #2: How the initial strategies and recommendations worked for Ronan
[40:55] Practicing co-regulation
[44:50] Planning for a professional assessment of Ronan
[48:30] Check in #3: Life post-assessment and how their family is doing now
[52:35] The power in having answers

Resources mentioned in this episode

Roughhousing ideas
Stop Yelling At Your Kids Course
Kristy Forbes resources
Petey the Rescue Dog
Episode 27: Understanding Autism with Kristy Forbes
Kristy’s course about PDA
Coke bottle analogy

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this coaching call with Seodhna, we talk about the challenges that have popped up with her intense, sensitive, and strong-willed son.

Seodhna is the mom of 3 boys- ages 3, 6, and 8. She asked me for help with her oldest child, who often is quite challenging and demanding of her and her family.

We go into:

[4:20] What it means to be ‘sensory seeking’
[7:55] Exercises Seodhna does with Ronan thanks to occupational therapy
[15:30] Introducing laughter and roughhousing to help unpack a full emotional backpack
[25:45] ‘Masking’ as it relates to autism
[37:20] Check in #2: How the initial strategies and recommendations worked for Ronan
[40:55] Practicing co-regulation
[44:50] Planning for a professional assessment of Ronan
[48:30] Check in #3: Life post-assessment and how their family is doing now
[52:35] The power in having answers

Resources mentioned in this episode

Roughhousing ideas
Stop Yelling At Your Kids Course
Kristy Forbes resources
Petey the Rescue Dog
Episode 27: Understanding Autism with Kristy Forbes
Kristy’s course about PDA
Coke bottle analogy

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this solo episode with me, we talk about how to handle after school meltdowns.

Our kids deal with a lot on a day to day basis, especially as they get readjusted to being back in school. Listen in for tips on how to help your kids navigate those inevitable meltdowns!

We go into:

[1:15] Why after school meltdowns happen
[6:50] How to help your child empty their emotional backpack
[8:45] Coke bottle analogy and how it relates to overwhelmed kids

Resources mentioned in this episode

Laughter ideas
Coke Bottle Effect

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this solo episode with me, we talk about how to handle after school meltdowns.

Our kids deal with a lot on a day to day basis, especially as they get readjusted to being back in school. Listen in for tips on how to help your kids navigate those inevitable meltdowns!

We go into:

[1:15] Why after school meltdowns happen
[6:50] How to help your child empty their emotional backpack
[8:45] Coke bottle analogy and how it relates to overwhelmed kids

Resources mentioned in this episode

Laughter ideas
Coke Bottle Effect

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

Why do partners struggle with peaceful parenting?

How can we help our male partners become open and receptive to this type of parenting? Why are there negative connotations associated with it to begin with?

Joining me for this conversation is DeAntwann “DJ” Johnson. DJ is a husband, father, author, mentor, coach, counselor, and sports statistician. He grew up in the Indiana foster care system and yet despite that, has gone on to lead a successful, and fulfilling life.

We go into:

[3:05] Why DJ wanted to raise his son in a peaceful way
[12:50] How to help dads with peaceful parenting
[23:10] The fear behind buying into peaceful parenting
[31:35] Why we can’t expect kids to listen to us right away
[38:10] Advice for parents whose partners are not on board
[44:50] What DJ would say to his younger father self

Before spending nine years in the foster care system, DJ suffered child abuse, domestic abuse, and emotional trauma. At one point, he wanted to end his life, but he realized that he was on this earth for a purpose. DJ fulfills that purpose by using his experiences to not only help establish relationships with the students he serves, but he helps parents better connect with their teenagers. DJ specializes in helping parents bridge the communication gap between them and their child to ensure that their child has room to be the best version of themself.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Ask Sarah your questions: www.speakpipe.com/peacefulparentingpodcast

Connect with DJ Johnson

On Instagram
On Twitter
On Facebook
www.djinspires.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

Why do partners struggle with peaceful parenting?

How can we help our male partners become open and receptive to this type of parenting? Why are there negative connotations associated with it to begin with?

We go into:

[3:05] Why DJ wanted to raise his son in a peaceful way
[12:50] How to help dads with peaceful parenting
[23:10] The fear behind buying into peaceful parenting
[31:35] Why we can’t expect kids to listen to us right away
[38:10] Advice for parents whose partners are not on board
[44:50] What DJ would say to his younger father self

Resources mentioned in this episode

Ask Sarah your questions: www.speakpipe.com/peacefulparentingpodcast

Connect with DJ Johnson

On Instagram
On Twitter
On Facebook
www.djinspires.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this coaching call with Liz, we talk about what to do when kids have trouble falling and staying asleep.

Liz is the mom of a four year old boy and a one year old girl. She asked for some support because her four year old was having a lot of trouble staying asleep by himself.

We came up with some ideas to help her and the rest of her family get more sleep, as well as some strategies to help him with his fears around going to sleep.

We go into:

[5:00] Why exhaustion and burnout is normal with little kids
[8:30] Current bedtime routine since weaning off nursing
[12:55] How Liz currently navigates her son waking up in the middle of the night
[16:10] How to address the ‘worry brain’ with your kids
[22:10] Strategies to help kids fall and stay asleep
[31:40] Check in after a few months

Resources mentioned in this episode

Episode 35: Three Skills to Protect Our Kids’ Mental Health with Lynn Lyons
Episode 45: Membership Q&A – How to Help Anxious Kids in Real Life Scenarios with Lynn Lyons
Anxious Kids Anxious Parents by Lynn Lyons
Blog post for worry brain

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this solo episode with me, we talk about what to do when saying goodbye is hard.

Whether it’s school drop-offs or leaving our kids with a babysitter, I’m sharing my strategies for making this transition much easier on both you and your kids.

We go into:

[2:00] Three ways to problem solve why saying goodbye is hard for kids
[4:55] Considering who does the drop off
[7:15] Coming up with a goodbye ritual
[9:30] How to make the goodbye easier
[13:00] Best practices when it comes to saying goodbye
[15:30] Talking to children about the moment of goodbye

Resources mentioned in this episode

www.sarahrosensweet.com/yelling
Anxiety strategies
Deborah MacNamara handout
Owl Babies by Martin Waddell
Episode 35: Three Skills to Protect Our Kids’ Mental Health with Lynn Lyons
Episode 45: Membership Q&A – How to Help Anxious Kids in Real Life Scenarios with Lynn Lyons

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

What are the three components of self compassion?

We all need to extend ourselves a bit more compassion which is why this conversation is particularly important. Joining me is the thought leader in the self-compassion space, Dr. Kristin Neff.

Dr. Neff is currently an Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. She is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research, conducting the first empirical studies on self-compassion nearly twenty years ago. She has been recognized as one of the most influential researchers in psychology worldwide.

We go into:

[3:00] How Dr. Neff’s story intertwines with her work in self compassion
[6:45] Secondary traumatic stress and secondary self-compassion
[8:20] How to find self compassion in hard situations
[9:15] Dr. Neff’s definition of self compassion
[12:30] Why gratitude isn’t always enough
[16:30] The two types of self compassion
[20:30] Dr. Neff’s self compassion meditation
[27:00] How to believe in yourself and that you aren’t a bad person
[29:45] What advice Dr. Neff would give to her younger parent self

Resources mentioned in this episode

Ask your question: www.speakpipe.com/peacefulparentingpodcast
Self-Compassion by Dr. Kristin Neff
Fierce Self-Compassion: How Women Can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, Claim Their Power, and Thrive by Dr. Kristin Neff

Connect with Dr. Kristin Neff

On Instagram
On Twitter
www.facebook.com/selfcompassion
www.self-compassion.org
Guided Meditations

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

Fierce Self-Compassion: How Women Can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, Claim Their Power, and Thrive

Self-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself

View Details

In this episode I sit down with Daniel, father to two girls, ages 9 and 15. Daniel has been following peaceful parenting practices in recent years and finds it a struggle that his wife isn’t onboard.

We go into:

[4:36] How ending the yelling and power struggles has changed Daniel’s relationship with his daughters
[9:30] Why we can force our partners to be aligned with peaceful parenting
[10:10] Tips to navigate your relationship with your partner when it comes to peaceful parenting
[17:05] Daniel’s update after a few weeks

Resources mentioned in this episode

www.sarahrosensweet.com/freeworkshop
Episode 19: When Your Partner Is Not On Board with Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet
www.sarahrosensweet.com/parentingcourse

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, I’m sharing three reasons why you don’t have to be a perfect parent.

There is a lot of pressure when it comes to parenting. Often we feel like people are judging us for what we do, say and act with our kids. The truth is, no one is judging us as harshly as we’re judging ourselves.

Listen in to learn why you are a better parent if you don’t hold yourself to an impossible standard of perfection!

We go into:

[4:40] Why being a perfect parent is unrealistic
[7:45] Helping our kids develop resilience
[9:35] Why perfectionism makes us worse parents

Resources mentioned in this episode

www.sarahrosensweet.com/freeworkshop

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

I’m popping onto your Podcast feed today to let you know I am hosting a workshop on Monday, August 8th at 8:00 PM EST and Thursday, August 11th at 12pm EST.

It’s called Peaceful Discipline: How to Get Your Kids to Cooperate Without Using Threats, Yelling or Punishment and I would love for you to join me.

You can go and sign up for free at www.sarahrosensweet.com/freeworkshop.

If you can't make it live, I will have a replay available for you that you can watch later. If you can make it live, I will be answering all of your questions about discipline and how to get your kids to listen to you without using yelling, threats, bribes, punishment, all of those things that we don't want to use in peaceful parenting.

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

My guest in this podcast set out to look at how some other families around the world operate, how American parenting is different, and what we can learn from parents in other places.

Doucleff is also a global health correspondent for NPR’s Science Desk, where she reports about disease outbreaks and children’s health.

We go into:

[3:00] Why Michaeleen wrote her book and what influenced it
[6:30] How the nuclear family has been a failed social experiment
[13:10] Michaeleen’s TEAM acronym
[20:00] The interesting thing about encouraging our kids to develop autonomy
[37:30] The importance of having minimal interference with our kids
[45:55] Culturally specific traits when raising kids
[52:00] Advice Michaeleen would give her younger parent self

Doucleff has a doctorate in chemistry from the University of Berkeley, California, a master’s degree in viticulture and enology from the University of California, Davis, and a bachelor’s degree in biology from Caltech.

In 2015, Doucleff was part of the team that earned a George Foster Peabody award for its coverage of the Ebola outbreak in West Africa. Before coming to NPR in 2012, Doucleff was an editor at the journal Cell, where she wrote about the science behind pop culture.

She lives in Alpine, Texas, with her husband, daughter and German Shepherd, Savanna.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Hunt, Gather, Parent by Michaeleen Doucleff
Ask your question: www.speakpipe.com/peacefulparentingpodcast
Brain-Body Parenting by Dr. Mona Delahooke

Connect with Michaeleen Doucleff

On Twitter
www.michaeleendoucleff.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

My guest in this podcast set out to look at how some other families around the world operate, how American parenting is different, and what we can learn from parents in other places.

Doucleff is also a global health correspondent for NPR’s Science Desk, where she reports about disease outbreaks and children’s health.

We go into:

[3:00] Why Michaeleen wrote her book and what influenced it
[6:30] How the nuclear family has been a failed social experiment
[13:10] Michaeleen’s TEAM acronym
[20:00] The interesting thing about encouraging our kids to develop autonomy
[37:30] The importance of having minimal interference with our kids
[45:55] Culturally specific traits when raising kids
[52:00] Advice Michaeleen would give her younger parent self

She lives in Alpine, Texas, with her husband, daughter and German Shepherd, Savanna.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Hunt, Gather, Parent by Michaeleen Doucleff
Ask your question: www.speakpipe.com/peacefulparentingpodcast
Brain-Body Parenting by Dr. Mona Delahooke

Connect with Michaeleen Doucleff

On Twitter
www.michaeleendoucleff.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

This week’s episode is a coaching call with Sameera, mom to four-year-old Ananth who has big feelings.

Sameera shares how Ananth gets unsettled when things don't go according to plan and how to help him navigate missing his dad when he’s at work.

We go into:

[2:10] The challenges Sameera is facing
[7:20] Tips to navigate big feelings
[9:50] How to empathize if you can’t relate to the situation
[19:00] Strategies to handle emotional outbursts
[25:00] What to do if you feel powerless
[33:30] Part 2: how things went for Sameera

Resources mentioned in this episode

We’re Going on a Bear Hunt by Michael Rosen

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

We're Going on a Bear Hunt (Classic Board Books)

View Details

In this episode, I introduce you to Corey and Stoney, the two new Peaceful Parenting Coaches here at Sarah Rosensweet Peaceful Parenting. We chat about our peaceful parenting journeys as well as our most influential parenting books over the years.

We go into:

[1:45] Introducing Corey to the team
[3:10] Introducing Stoney to the team
[5:50] Sarah’s most influential parenting books
[8:35] Corey’s most influential parenting books
[13:00] Stoney’s most influential parenting books
[24:30] The importance of equal partnership
[32:50] What to do if you’re struggling with burnout

Resources mentioned in this episode

Episode 24: Coaching call with Corey: When Peaceful Parenting Wasn’t Enough
Episode 47: Shame-Proof Parenting with Mercedes Samudio
Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids by Dr. Laura Marham
Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn
Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn
Shame Proof Parenting by Mercedes Samudio
Simplicity Parenting by Kim John Payne
The Soul of Discipline by Kim John Payne
Raising Human Beings by Ross Greene
Find Your Unicorn Space by Eve Rodsky
Fair Play by Eve Rodsky
Impossible Parenting by Olivia Scobie
How Not to Hate Your Husband After Kids by Jancee Dunn
All The Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and The Myth of Equal Partnership by Darcy Lockman
Burnout by Emily and Amelia Nagoski

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

Shame-Proof Parenting: Find your unique parenting voice, feel empowered, and raise whole, healthy children

Simplicity Parenting: Using the Extraordinary Power of Less to Raise Calmer, Happier, and More Secure Kids

Unconditional Parenting: Moving From Rewards and Punishments to Love and Reason

Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle

Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids: How to Stop Yelling and Start Connecting (The Peaceful Parent Series)

Impossible Parenting: Creating a New Culture of Mental Health for Parents

The Soul of Discipline: The Simplicity Parenting Approach to Warm, Firm, and Calm Guidance- From Toddlers to Teens

Fair Play: Win-Win solution for Women with Too Much to Do (and More Life to Live)

All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership

View Details

Have you heard the term ‘stable misery’?

It’s Dr. Lynyetta Willis’s term to describe the ‘in-between’ space we sometimes experience as parents: The house isn’t burning down but things aren’t great.

In this episode, Dr. Willis joins me for a conversation about how to break out of stable misery.

We go into:

[2:40] How Dr. Lynyetta became a family empowerment coach
[3:45] What stable misery is
[5:55] How to recognize when you’re in stable misery
[9:00] The Five Paths Framework
[21:10] Tips to get in touch with your feelings and emotions
[27:20] The difference between stressors and triggers
[40:20] Dr. Lynyetta’s advice to her younger parent self

Resources mentioned in this episode

Ask your question: www.speakpipe.com/peacefulparentingpodcast
Quiz: What’s Your Parenting Trigger Score - https://drlwillis.link/trigger-score
Stable Misery Free Roadmap - www.healingstablemisery.com

Connect with Dr. Lynyetta Willis

On Instagram
On LinkedIn
On Facebook
www.drlwillis.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

What is the impact of healing the relationship we have with our kids by healing ourselves?

It’s significant. When we start to understand why we have the beliefs and thoughts we do, and how it impacts our kids and relationships, it changes our outlook and how we approach our kids.

In this episode, Yvonne joins me for a coaching call to talk about how her relationship to herself has impacted the way she relates to her kids: Molly who is 7, and Fionntan who is 6.

We go into:

[2:40] Yvonne’s upbringing and how it influences the topic for this conversation
[5:20] Getting pregnant unexpectedly
[7:50] How Yvonne’s emotional regulation has changed since the early years
[11:10] Having conversations about repairs with our kids
[18:30] How to check in with your nervous system
[24:35] Two week check in: How it went for Yvonne
[32:20] The impact and importance of rest
[41:40] Why we shouldn’t be so hard on ourselves

Resources mentioned in this episode

www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this very special episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I have compiled a list of advice former podcast guests have shared about what they would say to their younger parent selves.

I know you will find this episode so inspiring. I’ve created a cheat sheet that you can download for free with all of my guests’ expert advice for you to reference. You can get it here: www.sarahrosensweet.com/guestexpertadvice.

We go into:

[3:30] Dr. Laura Markham’s advice
[5:05] Ned Johnson’s advice
[7:30] Yolanda Williams’ advice
[9:31] Dayna Abraham’s advice
[10:55] Leslie Priscilla’s advice
[12:21] Dr. Sharon Saline’s advice
[13:50] Mr. Chazz’s advice
[15:50] Kristy Forbes’ advice
[17:35] Eve Rodsky’s advice
[19:30] Teacher Tom’s advice
[22:10] Iris Chen’s advice
[23:45] Lynn Lyons’ advice
[26:10] Julie Lythcott-Haims’ advice
[30:45] Janine Halloran’s advice
[33:00] Dr. Mona’s advice
[34:50] My advice to my younger self

Resources mentioned in this episode

Episode 2: When Your Child Refuses with Dr. Laura Markham
Episode 8: Raising A Self-Driven Child with Ned Johnson
Episode 14: Decolonizing Parenting and Raising Anti-Racist Children with Yolanda Williams
Episode 17: Sensory Processing Challenges/Disorder with Dayna Abraham
Episode 20: Reparenting Ourselves: Being the Parents We Want To Be with Leslie Priscilla
Episode 22: Understanding ADHD with Dr. Sharon Saline
Episode 25: Seeing, Guiding and Trusting our Kids with Mr. Chazz
Episode 27: Understanding Autism with Kristy Forbes
Episode 30: Find Your Unicorn Space with Eve Rodsky
Episode 31: Play-Based Learning with Teacher Tom
Episode 34: Untigering: Moving From Coercion to Compassion with Iris Chen
Episode 35: Three Skills to Protect Our Kids’ Mental Health with Lynn Lyons
Episode 37: Your Turn: How to Be An Adult with Julie Lythcott-Haims
Episode 41: Healthy Coping Strategies for Kids with Janine Halloran
Episode 42: Brain-Body Parenting with Dr. Mona Delahooke

Books Authored by Our Guests

Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids by Dr. Laura Marham
Peaceful Parent, Happy Siblings by Dr. Laura Markham
What Do You Say with Ned Johnson and William Stixrud
Find Your Unicorn Space by Eve Rodsky
Purchase: Fair Play by Eve Rodsky
Untigering: Peaceful Parenting for the Deconstructing Tiger Parent by Iris Chen
Anxious Kids Anxious Parents by Lynn Lyons
How to Raise an Adult by Julie Lythcott-Haims
Real American: A Memoir by Julie Lythcott-Haims
Your Turn: How to Be An Adult by Julie Lythcott-Haims
Brain-Body Parenting by Dr. Mona Delahooke

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

Untigering: Peaceful Parenting for the Deconstructing Tiger Parent

View Details

How much sleep do tweens and teens need? Are they getting enough? How do we help them get more? It’s no secret that our kids lead busy lives– between schoolwork, activities, volunteering, and more, how can we ensure our kids get enough sleep?

Joining me for this conversation about our teens and sleep is Heather Turgeon and Julie Wright, psychotherapists and sleep specialists.

We go into:

[3:30] An inside look at their new book, Generation Sleepless
[4:35] The big dangers of our teenagers not getting enough sleep
[7:35] The impact of social media on sleep
[9:00] The learning challenges that come from lack of sleep
[11:10] How to get your kids on board in changing their sleep habits
[19:25] The importance of modeling what’s important and helping kids who have a hard time with priorities
[29:50] Tips for parents who are struggling with getting their kids to sleep

They are authors of the popular parenting book, The Happy Sleeper. Their work has appeared in outlets like the New York Times and NPR. Their new book is called, Generation Sleepless: Why tweens and teens aren't sleeping enough, and how we can help them.

Resources mentioned in this episode

The Happy Sleeper by Heather Turgeon and Julie Wright
Generation Sleepless by Heather Turgeon and Julie Wright
The Self-Driven Child by Dr. William Stixrud and Ned Johnson
Staying Connected to Your Teenager by Michael Riera

Connect with Heather and Julie

On Instagram
https://www.thehappysleeper.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

Is your strong-willed child being defiant? Are you looking for guidance on closing the gap between your expectations and what is actually happening when it comes to setting peaceful limits? This episode is a solo episode, based on a question I received from Susanne via Speakpipe (you can leave your questions there for me too)!

We cover:

[1:50] Suzanne’s question for this episode
[3:35] 3 big ideas behind parenting Strong Willed kids
[5:40] How to close the gap between expectations and realities without yelling
[9:50] Finding a win-win solution

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Ask your question: www.speakpipe.com/peacefulparentingpodcast
Connection strategies free ebook

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, Rachel Rainbolt joins us in talking about how to have more simplicity as a family.

Our world is packed with stuff and activities, some of which we want and need, and a lot of which we don’t. Rachel teaches us tips to simplify our time and space so we can have more ease and joy.

Rachel, the founder of Sage Family, is a gentle parenting, natural homeschooling, and simple living mentor. With a master’s degree in marital and family therapy, she has spent decades guiding thousands of overwhelmed families to peace and joy. Rachel works from the Pacific Northwest, where she lives wild and free in connection with her 3 wildlings and the papa bear in their fixer upper on the beach.

We go into:

[2:15] The case study that frames this conversation
[7:00] The simplicity mindset
[15:50] Why transitions are hard for kids
[17:20] Where to put yourself on your to do list
[22:00] How to help kids get rid of stuff
[26:20] The biggest blocks parents get when it comes to simplicity
[29:45] Best practices for getting started with simplifying your space
[33:30] Reframing trying to ‘do it all’

Resources mentioned in this episode

The Sage Family Podcast
Burnout by Emily and Amelia Nagoski
Rachel’s Freebies
Sage Family Village

Connect with Rachel

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://sagefamily.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

How do you calm a hypervigilant nervous system? What causes it? How do you support a child when their behavior is challenging? This is what we discuss in this week’s coaching episode with Anita.

Anita lives in Australia and is the mom of two great kids: an 8 year old girl and 5 year old boy named Louis. Louis has a hypervigilant nervous system and asks for support in navigating it.

We cover:

[3:20] Louis’ facial burn and how it exacerbated his hypervigilance and sensitive nature
[8:45] How to know if you need an autism diagnosis
[11:40] Trauma responses vs. autism
[18:15] The fear behind not having enough resources for neurodivergent kids
[25:20] Anita’s update after two months

Resources mentioned in this episode

Join my newsletter
Episode 33: Why Does My Child Lie and What To Do About It with Sarah Rosensweet
Episode 43: Four Big Ideas to Help Stop Sibling Fights with Sarah Rosensweet

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

We have a solo episode to talk about how to help our kids with transitions this week.

With the end of the school year around the corner, we may not recognize that this is a time of heightened anxiety for our kids. We typically tend to think that going back to school is more stressful for them, when in fact, year end could be just the same.

We cover:

[3:05] Recognizing our child’s fear of back to school as a potential anxiety
[4:00] Empathizing with our child through their anxieties
[5:45] Listening to our child as they share their worries with you
[6:55] The importance of letting your child know they can handle it
[10:10] The two best ways to empty your emotional backpack
[10:50] What to do if your kids are anxious all year

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Anxious Kids Anxious Parents by Lynn Lyons

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, we talk about how to overcome picky eating. This is a challenge a lot of parents face – how to get their kids to eat without being so picky! Joining me for this conversation is Jennifer House, who has been a Registered Dietitian for 16 years. She has owned First Step Nutrition for the past 13 years, where she helps to make feeding families easier, with a focus on Baby-led Weaning and Picky Eating. Jennifer has published two books and regularly appears in the media.

We go into:

[3:40] This episode’s case study
[7:10] Why it’s okay for our kids’ appetites to fluctuate
[9:00] The Division of Responsibility by Ellyn Satter
[14:35] The kids’ responsibility when it comes to eating
[18:25] Intuitive eating for kids
[19:00] How to spot the difference between sensory processing challenges and picky eating
[33:50] Why kids are picky to begin with
[40:00] Advice parents need to know when it comes to picky eating

Jen earned her BSc in Nutrition & Food Science from the University of Alberta, and before starting First Step Nutrition, she completed an MSc in Human Nutrition from the University of British Columbia. She also worked at the Alberta Children’s Hospital in outpatient services, often seeing clients with Failure to Thrive or picky eating struggles.

Having a picky eater of her own, Jennifer can relate to the stress and struggles of raising a kid who just won’t try new foods! She has helped hundreds of families implement Ellyn Satter’s Division of Responsibility of feeding in their homes with personal consults and team feeding consults in partnership with an Occupational Therapist. She now works with clients online in a group coaching program to support them in making mealtimes more peaceful with a picky eater at the table.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Sequential Oral Sensory Approach by Dr. Kay Toomy
The Division of Responsibility by Ellyn Satter

Connect with Jennifer

On Instagram
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
On Facebook
https://firststepnutrition.com
Free On-Demand Webinar: "How to teach your kids to finally try new foods....without yelling or making separate meals"

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, I sit down with Bob, dad to Cody, 6 and Skyler, 2. This conversation specifically focuses on Bob’s challenges with Cody, who is a kid with really big feelings and a lot of sensitivity. As you’ll hear in the episode, we talk about the triggers Bob experiences because of Cody’s big feelings. We also discuss his fears and challenges with staying calm and emotionally generous in hard moments.

We cover:

[6:30] How Cody’s needs show up in their family life
[12:50] How our fear as parents shows up in our parenting
[19:00] What co-regulation is and the process to get there
[21:20] Tips for incorporating Special Time into your routine
[34:25] How to empty your Emotional Backpack
[40:05] Check in - the changes Bob experienced after our coaching call

Resources mentioned in this episode

Episode 38: Why Do Kids Whine? And What To Do About It with Sarah Rosensweet
Special Time Guide
Rescue dog YouTube video
Empathic Limits blog post

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

Have you ever either felt shame as a parent and then either had a grown up tantrum OR shamed your kids in those tough moments?

As parents, it is impossible to avoid ever feeling shame. Our kids will act out. People will judge us. We will make bad decisions sometimes despite our best intentions.

Shame-proof parenting is about learning how to support yourself when those hard feelings come up so that we can be the parents we want to be instead of getting caught up in our own embarrassment or overwhelm.

Joining me for this conversation is Mercedes Samudio, LCSW, a licensed psychotherapist, parent coach, speaker, and bestselling author who helps parents and children communicate with each other, manage emotional trauma, navigate social media and technology together, and develop healthy parent-child relationships.

We go into:

[2:20] What shame-proof parenting is and why it’s so important
[7:50] Mercedes’ tips for reducing shame in hard situations
[12:25] How to love yourself as a parent, through the shame you’re experiencing
[14:35] The Parental Identity Development Model
[28:50] Mercedes’ advice for parents who are just starting out

Mercedes is an adjunct professor at Chapman University and Pepperdine University where she teaches psychology, diagnosis of mental illness, and multicultural counseling. She is an accomplished speaker who explores topics such as parenting identity development, multicultural counseling, and developing a clinical identity.

Mercedes started the #EndParentShaming movement as well as coined the term Shame-Proof Parenting – using both to bring awareness to ending parent shame.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Episode 30: Find Your Unicorn Space with Eve Rodsky

Connect with Mercedes

On Instagram
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
https://shameproofparenting.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, we’re exploring why we don’t need to stress out or fix it when our kids are unhappy about something. Life is a balance of happy and hard times. Our kids will experience these moments too as they grow older. It’s important to welcome and honor their feelings and emotions, even as we don’t want to see them suffering.

Supporting them through unhappy moments helps them become more resilient.

We cover:

[1:10] Why parenting with the goal of happiness is troublesome
[2:00] Why it’s hard for us to parent when our kids are unhappy
[6:00] How kids develop emotional resilience
[7:50] Why unhappy kids don’t make us bad parents
[9:50] Being aware of the stories we tell ourselves

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, I’m sharing a glimpse into my incredible membership community.

It’s a monthly membership program. One of the features is group coaching Office Hours every week and one is a guest expert Q&A with other mentors in the parenting space.

Lynn Lyons joined me in my membership for this Q&A call, where community members had the chance to ask her their questions and get support in real time.

We go into:

[6:35] How to help anxious kids who reject coping skills
[15:02] Helping kids who are anxious going to school
[20:04] Guiding our kids who have just learned about death
[25:35] How to help kids who get anxious at bedtime
[32:10] Helping kids who are anxious about grades and academic performance
[38:51] Dealing with perfectionism
[41:31] What to look for in a therapist if you feel your child needs some extra support with their anxiety

Lynn is a psychotherapist, author and speaker in Concord, New Hampshire. She has been in private practice for 28 years, and specializes in the treatment of anxiety disorders in adults and children.

She travels globally as a speaker and trainer on the subject of anxiety, its role in families, and the need for a preventative approach at home and in schools.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Sign up for my membership
Anxious Kids Anxious Parents by Lynn Lyons
Anxiety and Depression Association of America
The International OCD Foundation
The Self Driven Child by William Stixrud

Connect with Lynn

On Instagram
On Twitter
On YouTube
Facebook
https://www.lynnlyons.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

How can we help our sensitive kids when they’re experiencing big emotions and get upset? It’s not that they don’t want to share their emotions with us. They may be so overwhelmed that adding our emotions as parents on top of theirs can be even more triggering for them.

In this episode, I sit down with Julia, mom of two girls – L who is 8 and T who is 10. Julia shares how L is uncomfortable with her big feelings and working through them together.

We talk about:

[5:50] How sensitive kids sometimes shut down when experiencing big feelings
[8:40] Defining emotional backpacks and leading with empathy
[12:05] Challenging our own views of what supporting our kids should look like
[17:50] Making repairs out of our own need to do it
[27:20] How to ease tensions and incorporate Special Time
[34:30] Check in - the changes Julia experienced after our coaching call

Resources mentioned in this episode

Special Time Guide
5 Day Challenge: Parenting Reset

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

This episode is with Julie Lythcott-Haims and we talk about her new book, Your Turn: How to Be an Adult, which is about how to be a good person and have a good life.

We also talked about how to raise kids so that they don't need a book to learn how to be an adult. Julie also shared some really great tips about truly seeing our children.

Julie Lythcott-Haims believes in humans and is deeply interested in what gets in our way. Her work encompasses writing, speaking, teaching, mentoring, and activism.

We go into:

How Julie’s new book is changing the narrative around the heaviness of living in today’s society
What fending is and how can you best prepare your kids for when they do get to the fending stage
The four step method to teaching any kid any skill
How to parent our kids the way they need us to parent them
Unpacking privilege in gentle parenting

She is the New York Times bestselling author of How to Raise an Adult which gave rise to a popular TED Talk. Her second book is the critically-acclaimed and award-winning prose poetry memoir Real American, which illustrates her experience as a Black and biracial person in white spaces.

Julie holds degrees from Stanford, Harvard Law, and California College of the Arts. She currently serves on the boards of Common Sense Media, Black Women’s Health Imperative, Narrative Magazine, and on the Board of Trustees at California College of the Arts. She serves on the advisory boards of LeanIn.Org, Parents magazine and Baldwin For the Arts.

She lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with her partner of over thirty years, their itinerant young adults, and her mother.

Julie’s Books

How to Raise an Adult
Real American: A Memoir
Your Turn: How to Be An Adult

Connect with Julie

On Instagram
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
Facebook
https://jlythcotthaims.bulletin.com/
https://www.julielythcotthaims.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, we’re exploring four big ideas to stop sibling rivalry and fighting.

Sibling fighting is so upsetting for us as parents! Unfortunately, a lot we do to try to make it better actually makes it worse. This episode will help you with the best practices to help siblings get along.

We cover:

Four big ideas to help your kids get along
The importance of special time
The benefit of giving ‘long turns’ a try
Why and how to intervene in disagreements if they can’t work it out

Resources mentioned in this episode

Free Download: Sibling Rivalry Cheat Sheet
Siblings without Rivalry by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish
Special Time Guide

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

Siblings Without Rivalry: How to Help Your Children Live Together So You Can Live Too

View Details

In this episode, I have the pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Mona Delahooke to talk about her new book, Brain-Body Parenting. We also speak about the connection between our brain and bodies, why our nervous systems get overloaded, and how our kids process their emotions. Dr. Mona is a mother of three, and a licensed clinical psychologist with more than thirty years of experience caring for children and their families. She is a senior faculty member of the Profectum Foundation and a member of the American Psychological Association.

We go into:

What brain-body parenting is
What happens in our nervous systems when we sense a threat
The connection between our bodies and brains
The sensory impact on our nervous systems
Top down vs. bottom up behaviors
How to co-regulate with our child

Dr. Mona is the author of the award winning book Beyond Behaviors: Using Brain Science and Compassion to Understand and Solve Children’s Behavioral Challenges, and the upcoming book, Brain-Body Parenting: How to stop managing behaviors and start raising Joyful, Resilient Kids. She is a frequent speaker, trainer, and consultant to parents, organizations, schools, and public agencies. She lives and works in the Los Angeles area.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Join my newsletter
Purchase: Brain-Body Parenting by Dr. Mona Delahooke

Connect with Dr. Mona

On Instagram
On Twitter
LinkedIn
Facebook
www.monadelahooke.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

How do we help kids with their big feelings? Of course we empathize first, but then what? How do we help them calm down? If you need a bit of support in this area, you will love this really wonderful conversation with Janine Halloran about coping strategies for kids

This episode has so many actionable strategies that you can take away and use the next time your child is having a hard time.

Janine Halloran is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor who has been working with children, teens, and their families for 20 years. She has been helping children and teens build their coping skills throughout her career in a variety of settings, including schools, mental health clinics and in her private practice.

We go into:

When kids need coping strategies
The five types of coping strategies Janine talks about in her work
How to use Janine’s coping strategies checklist
What to do when your child doesn’t want to use any of their preferred coping mechanisms
The feelings thermometer

Janine is the author of several books, including the bestselling Coping Skills for Kids Workbook and the Coping Skills for Teens Workbook. Her work has been featured in the Boston Globe, CNN, Huffington Post, and The Skimm® Newsletter. Janine lives in Massachusetts with her husband and two children.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Free Coping Skills Printables
Free Encourage Play Printables
Download: Coping Strategies Checklist and Feelings Thermometer
Get 20% off in the Coping Skills for Kids Store

Connect with Janine

On Instagram
LinkedIn
Facebook
Calm and Connected Podcast with Janine Halloran
www.copingskillsforkids.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

Coping Skills for Teens Workbook: 60 Helpful Ways to Deal with Stress, Anxiety and Anger

View Details

Often on our parenting journey, our kids may do something or act in a way that makes us feel triggered and shut down. Often that means there’s something for us to look at within us that needs attention or healing.

In this coaching call, Georgina joins me to talk about managing her son’s big feelings. She is the mom of six year old Oswald and a five month old baby. Georgina wanted to know how to best support her six year old, who is a really intense little guy with big feelings. Be sure to listen to the end to hear about Georgina’s big breakthrough!

We talk about:

How our kids can trigger unhealed traumas from our past
Giving our kids space to process their big feelings and managing ours at the same time
Strategies to empty emotional backpacks before coming home from a long day
How Georgina was able to connect with her inner child

Resources mentioned in this episode

www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Episode 20: Reparenting Ourselves: Being the Parents We Want To Be with Leslie Priscilla

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

How do we talk to our kids about sex? For some parents, this topic can be very uncomfortable, but it doesn’t have to be.

In fact, our kids need to learn about sex, their bodies, and how it all works – it’s so important!

Joining me for this conversation is Amy Lang, MA, who has been a sexual health educator for over 25 years. With her lively, engaging, and down-to-earth style, she helps parents become their kid’s go-to ‘birds and bees’ source. Amy’s books, online solutions center and podcast, Just Say This! show parents that talking about sexuality doesn’t need to be totally uncomfortable and really can be fun.

We go into:

When to start talking to your kids about sex
Why talking to kids about sex is really important to keep them safe
Why we need to use the proper words and terminology when it comes to consent and body parts
What makes people so afraid of teenagers having sex
How to start talking about sex when you don’t know where to start

Amy also provides childhood sexual development and sexual abuse prevention training for early childhood and youth serving organizations. Amy is still married to her first husband and they are getting the hang of parenting their recently launched man-child. She lives in Seattle WA and you can learn more about her work at BirdsAndBeesAndKids.com

Resources mentioned in this episode

Girls & Sex Peggy Orenstein
Boys & Sex Peggy Orenstein
It’s Perfectly Normal by Robie Harris and Michael Emberley
What’s Happening to Me? by Peter Mayle
The Every Body Book by Rachel Simon
Amy’s Recommended Books and Resources
Birds & Bees Solutions Center: one-stop-shop for sex talking
BARK monitoring and parental controls
RAINN.org for support for abuse survivors
Consent is like tea video

Connect with Amy

On Instagram
Facebook
www.birdsandbeesandkids.com
Amy Lang’s ‘Just Say THIS’ Podcast

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

The Every Body Book: The LGBTQ+ Inclusive Guide for Kids about Sex, Gender, Bodies, and Families

It's Perfectly Normal: Changing Bodies, Growing Up, Sex, Gender, and Sexual Health (The Family Library)

Boys & Sex: Young Men on Hookups, Love, Porn, Consent, and Navigating the New Masculinity

"What's Happening to Me?" The Classic Illustrated Children's Book on Puberty

Girls & Sex: Navigating the Complicated New Landscape

View Details

In this episode, we’re exploring why kids whine and what we can do about it.

I go into detail about all the reasons kids whine. Whining is a signal to us that our kids need our help and support. They are doing the best they can!

We cover:

Why our kids whine
The first steps to take when our kid is whining
Handling whining without shaming our kids
How to approach whining with empathy and why it matters for our kids

Resources mentioned in this episode

Join my newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
Parenting Quiz: www.sarahrosensweet.com/parentingquiz

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

This episode is with Julie Lythcott-Haims and we talk about her new book, Your Turn: How to Be an Adult, which is about how to be a good person and have a good life. We also talked about how to raise kids so that they don't need a book to learn how to be an adult. Julie also shared some really great tips about truly seeing our children.

Julie Lythcott-Haims believes in humans and is deeply interested in what gets in our way. Her work encompasses writing, speaking, teaching, mentoring, and activism.

We go into:

How Julie’s new book is changing the narrative around the heaviness of living in today’s society
What fending is and how can you best prepare your kids for when they do get to the fending stage
The four step method to teaching any kid any skill
How to parent our kids the way they need us to parent them
Unpacking privilege in gentle parenting

She lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with her partner of over thirty years, their itinerant young adults, and her mother.

Julie’s Books

How to Raise an Adult
Real American: A Memoir
Your Turn: How to Be An Adult

Connect with Julie

On Instagram
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
Facebook
https://jlythcotthaims.bulletin.com/
https://www.julielythcotthaims.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

As parents, of course we want our kids to be best friends as they’re growing up. But what happens when that’s not necessarily the case? Or when there is so much sibling rivalry, frustration and upset? It can be hard to know where to turn or how to navigate it.

This episode is a coaching call with Maryke, a mom of three strong-willed kids, Kira who is 3, Christie who is five, and Ewan who is seven.

Maryke shares about the struggles she has been facing with her kids; arguing and not listening.

We talk about:

How to navigate when older siblings physically fight
Tips and things to say to help our kids regulate their emotions
How to help guide our kids to their ‘calm down zone’
Tips to encourage our kids to listen
Is it okay for our kids to see us upset with them?

Resources mentioned in this episode

www.sarahrosensweet.com/parentingcourse
Episode 22: Understanding ADHD with Dr. Sharon Saline

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

How do we inoculate our kids against anxiety? What can we do to support their mental health as they grow?

Lynn Lyons joins me for this episode to talk about the three skills that our kids need to have if we want them to have good mental health and avoid mental health challenges.

We go into:

Three big ideas as it relates to raising anxious kids
How to talk to our kids about flexibility
How to use a Flexibility Wall
The challenge of ensuring everything always goes according to plan
The effects on kids of being raised in an anxious environment
How to teach your kids to check in with themselves and assess dangerous situations on their own
The power in avoiding “why” questions with your kids

Lynn is a psychotherapist, author and speaker in Concord, New Hampshire. She has been in private practice for 28 years, and specializes in the treatment of anxiety disorders in adults and children.

She travels globally as a speaker and trainer on the subject of anxiety, its role in families, and the need for a preventative approach at home and in schools.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Anxious Kids Anxious Parents by Lynn Lyons
Sign up for my Peaceful Discipline Workshop

Connect with Lynn

On Instagram
On Twitter
On YouTube
Facebook
https://www.lynnlyons.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

How do we navigate moving away from punitive parenting to peaceful parenting if we have only ever known that one parenting style?

My guest is Iris Chen, the founder of the Untigering movement and author of "Untigering: Peaceful Parenting for the Deconstructing Tiger Parent."

We talk about how to undo the shame and negative thoughts that can come with transitioning from punitive parenting to peaceful parenting, giving ourselves grace, and repairing the relationship with our kids.

We go into:

The definition of Tiger Parenting
Iris’ transition from Tiger Parenting when she realized it wasn’t working with her kids
How Iris was able to find and give herself genuine compassion for how she parented before discovering peaceful parenting
The three big ideas around Adultism
Why family meetings are important and best practices for incorporating this into your own family team

As a peaceful parenting advocate, unschooler, and deconstructing tiger mom, her mission is to inspire generational and cultural transformation, especially among Asian communities. She spent 16 years living overseas in China (land of the tiger parent!) but now resides in her native California with her husband and two sons.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Untigering: Peaceful Parenting for the Deconstructing Tiger Parent by Iris Chen

Connect with Iris

On Instagram
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
Facebook
https://untigering.com/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

In this episode, we’re exploring why kids lie and what to do about it. This is something that I know concerns a lot of parents. I hear about it from folks in my membership, private coaching and in my Facebook group.

What do we do when kids lie? And why do they lie?

We cover:

Some research about child development and lying
The four main reasons why little kids lie
Why leading with empathy helps your child not lie
How to ask questions in a way that won’t get a lie as an answer
The reasons why bigger kids lie
Tips to build strong relationships with our kids so they feel safe telling us the truth

Resources mentioned in this episode

Join my newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter
The problems with punishment: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/the-problems-with-punishment

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

What do we do when our toddler wants our undivided attention but we have to take care of the baby? How do we make sure they know how special and loved they are without spreading ourselves too thin?

This conversation is for all the parents or caregivers who are currently navigating this. Let me firstly remind you that you’re doing a great job!

I speak with Sarah, mom of two young girls, L. who is two and a half, and A. who is four and a half months old. We dove deep into:

My tips for regulating our own emotions in moments of sensory-overload
Ways to connect with our kids that don’t involve being 1x1
Strategies to help our toddlers and babies connect
How to reframe when we’re being hard on ourselves

Resources mentioned in this episode

Research about secure attachment: http://www.cdd.unm.edu/ecln/hvt/common/pdfs/2011_7.pdf
More on the sibling transition: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/having-another-baby/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

What is play-based learning? What are the benefits of play-based learning and how can it help our kids become more independent as they grow older?

In this episode, I sat down with Teacher Tom to speak about the benefits of play-based learning.

Listen in as we talk about:

What play-based learning is
Why letting your kids play when it comes to learning is more than enough
The dangers of not letting kids play
Why bickering is necessary when playing
Teacher Tom’s perspective on how much play kids really need

Tom "Teacher Tom'' Hobson is an early childhood educator, international speaker, education consultant, teacher of teachers, parent educator, and author. He is best known for his namesake "Teacher Tom's Blog," where he has posted daily for over a decade, chronicling the life and times of his preschool.

For nearly two decades he was the sole employee of the Woodland Park Cooperative School, a parent-owned and operated school, knit together by Teacher Tom's democratic, progressive, play-based pedagogy. He has authored two bestselling books, consults with organizations about his "Family Schools program,” and inspires early years audiences around the world at major ECE conferences, both virtually and in-person.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Connect with Teacher Tom

On Instagram
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
Facebook
Blog
www.teachertomsworld.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

Unicorn space. It’s not self-care. It’s not time with friends. It’s the space where you get to do what lights you up and makes you interesting. It’s what makes you YOU! And if we don’t find, make or take that time, we’re in danger of losing our light. In this episode, I’m thrilled to chat with best selling author Eve Rodsky, New York Times bestselling author of Fair Play: A Game-Changing Solution for When You Have Too Much to Do (and More Life to Live) and its highly anticipated follow-up, Find Your Unicorn Space: Reclaim Your Creative Life in a Too-Busy World available on December 28.

Eve is a Harvard-trained lawyer and former foundational manager at J.P. Morgan, and combines her experience in organizational management and family mediation with the science connecting creativity with improved mental and physical health.

Her step-by-step approach in Fair Play, which helps partners rebalance their domestic workload, has been recognized by Reese’s Book Club, Good Morning America, Today, NPR, The Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, and other outlets.

Listen in as we talk about:

The critical moment that sparked Eve’s identity crisis and led to the creation of her first book
Why women or caretakers are conditioned to de-prioritize their own time and put everyone else first
The definition of Unicorn Space and how it works in real life
The notion of ‘space’ and why women or caretakers rarely have any
The secret formula to finding more time
Why it’s so important as moms, parents and caretakers to prioritize ourselves

Resources mentioned in this episode

Purchase: Find Your Unicorn Space by Eve Rodsky
Purchase: Fair Play by Eve Rodsky
Sarah’s appearance on Martha Stewart
The Big Rock Theory

Connect with Eve

On Instagram
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
On Facebook
Blog
www.fairplaylife.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

How do you navigate sibling rivalry in an attempt to get attention, going to and from a divided home, and big emotions?

This can be overwhelming and like a lot to unpack. It’s important to emphasize empathy, connection and Special Time.

My guests for this week’s coaching call are Kayla and Cody, dad and step-mom to 10 year old Cayden and 6 year old Trenton. The main challenge they’re facing is that their older son gets upset when the younger one says or does things incorrectly and tries to help parent his younger brother -- a common challenge amongst siblings.

How do we navigate this? How do we ensure everyone’s big emotions are acknowledged with space to process them? Be sure to listen to the end to hear how it all went for Kayla and Cody!

We talk about:

The reason behind why our kids try and help us parent their siblings
Using Special Time to help mend sibling rivalry
Tips to managing screen time and transitioning from tasks with a buffer
How to repair the relationship with your kids after yelling by accident

Resources mentioned in this episode

Sarah’s Stop Yelling Course: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/stop-yelling-kids/
Learn about Special Time: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/special-time/
Beyond Behaviours by Mona Delahooke: https://www.amazon.ca/Beyond-Behaviors-Compassion-Understand-Behavioral/dp/1683731190
The Explosive Child by Ross Greene: https://drrossgreene.com/the-explosive-child.htm

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

How do we enjoy the holidays with our kids without worrying about if they’re being grateful enough for all they have?

How do we navigate gift-giving when trying to raise more conscious kids?

I know sometimes it can feel overwhelming. We may worry about the impact that gift-giving can have on our kids as they get older.

I brought on my three kids, Maxine, age 14, Asa, age 17, and Lee, age 20, to talk about the holidays when they were younger vs. now help parents navigate this with their own children.

Spoiler alert: you are already doing a great job!

Listen in as we talk about:

Why kids wanting presents is a normal thing
How to create family traditions that go deeper than gifts
The post-holiday “let down” and how it can lead to more mindful kids
When kids start to notice and feel gratitude and appreciation

Subscribe to my newsletter: www.sarahrosensweet.com/newsletter

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call

View Details

Imagine going through life always wondering why it was so hard to “fit in”.

My guest this week is Kristy Forbes, and she shares with us how she was diagnosed with autism at the age of 33. As you’ll hear in our conversation, this was a life-changing moment for Kristy in terms of understanding why she had certain tendencies.

Kristy Forbes is an Australia based autism & neurodiversity support specialist with experience working with a range of clients both nationally and internationally.

Her work is informed by her extensive professional experience as an educator (Early Childhood, Primary and Secondary teaching), as an integration aide to children with social, emotional and behavioural differences, and as a childhood behavioural and family specialist.

Her most valuable insights, however, come from lived experience.

Kristy is autistic herself and also diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA).

She is a mother to four autistic children, ranging from 7 years to 23 years, all with varying autistic expression including non-speaking and PDA.

Listen in as we talk about:

The definition of autism that Kristy embraces
Why functioning labels are more harmful than helpful
Tips to become a more inclusive person and create a more inclusive society
Why parents can be fearful of telling their children that they’re autistic
What neurotypical parents can do to help their neurodiverse children
Key information we all should learn about understanding what it’s like living with autism

Resources mentioned in this episode

Kristy’s blog post
Join the inTune Access Support: Family Collective
Reframing Autism
The Autistic Advocate

Connect with Kristy

On Instagram
Facebook
Blog
www.kristyforbes.com.au

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

With the holiday season around the corner, I polled my community to see what you were most worried about this year. One of the things that overwhelmingly came out was that people were feeling stressed about spending time with their extended family.

The concepts and tips in this week’s podcast can be applied to any get together or holiday, but I think you will find them particularly helpful in this season.

Spoiler alert: It’s about remembering that we are all doing the best we can, and that empathy goes a long way in building trust and understanding.

Listen in as we talk about:

The four big ideas to having peaceful holidays
How to deal with loved ones who don’t understand our family limits and parenting style
How to navigate loved ones who overstep our parenting
Tips to working through criticism

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Blog Post: What is Peaceful Parenting?

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a consultation call

View Details

My guest this week, Mr. Chazz, and I had such a wonderful and wide-ranging conversation. While we didn’t cover one specific topic, we dove into some of the many different areas we need to consider when it comes to being the parents (and people!) we want to be.

We explored topics like how do we find empathy in situations that feel impossible? How do we deal with people who simply don’t understand or feel bad about hitting their kids? And why community is so important to help us through it all!

Mr. Chazz’s mission is to help adults truly See, Guide and Trust children. He envisions moving the needle a little closer to world peace. He goes by, “Mr.Chazz” and he even has a song to prove it. He has been a teacher of teachers and parents, working with many schools, 1,000s of teachers and 1,000s of children.

He also earned his Master’s in Executive Leadership at American University, has appeared on platforms like Good Morning America and Parents.com.

Listen in as we talk about:

How he transitioned from being an early childhood educator to impacting thousands on TikTok and Instagram
How Mr. Chazz deals with objections from parents online when it comes to peaceful parenting
Why empathy is key to understanding other people, as well as our kids
The importance of community and developing a support system in parenting
Developmental behaviour vs. age-appropriate behaviour

Resources mentioned in this episode

Leadership Parenting and Teaching Podcast
Hand in Hand Listening Partners

Connect with Mr. Chazz

On Instagram
On TikTok
Facebook
http://www.patreon.com/mrchazz

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

It can be scary to learn our kid has challenges that run deeper than what peaceful parenting can solve.

Realizing your child may need an assessment or may have something else going on behind the scenes can fill us with fear, worry and uncertainty.

This week’s episode is with Corey, a mom of two young boys, Big C who is 6 and neurodivergent and Little C who is 3.

Corey is also part of Team Sarah Rosensweet and is a former client. I invited her on to the podcast to talk about her experience with peaceful parenting and how it led to her son getting a proper diagnosis of sensory processing challenges, as well as a team to support him and their family.

Corey shares how her experience has enriched her and her family’s life in the most meaningful way. Of course there are still bad days and many challenges, but there are many blessings too.

We talk about:

How Corey faced a lot of challenges with big C, and felt isolated in parenting groups
Why traditional parenting techniques weren’t the answer
How her mindset and confidence transformed while working with Sarah
What led Corey to know that there was something more going on with big C
What a sensory diet is
The blessings that have come with getting Big C a proper diagnosis

Resources mentioned in this episode

Sensory Processing Challenges Episode with Dayna Abraham: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/episode17/
Worry Brain concept by Lynn Lyons: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/sleep-anxiety/
Hey Warrior: A Book for Kids About Anxiety by Karen Young: https://www.socialthinking.com/Products/hey-warrior-book-for-kids-about-anxiety

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/
On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php

View Details

“How do I get my kids to help out with chores?” This is a common question that I get from parents across my community, so I thought I would do an episode with some tips and tricks to help you encourage your kids to want to help out more around the house.

I share my top strategies and what has worked well for my family over the years. The information I’m sharing today is tried and true, and will serve as a stepping stone to your journey with chores!

“Should I give your kids specific jobs?” or “What do I do if they refuse?” This episode covers these questions and so much more.

If you like what you hear, be sure to share the episode with someone you know needs to hear it.

Listen in as we talk about:

The main strategies to encouraging your kids to help with chores
Tips to motivate our kids to want to pitch in and help out
Why empowerment is a key tool
How to avoid power struggles in asking our kids for help with chores
Giving yourself appreciation when it feels like your child is unappreciative of your help

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Connection Strategies
Blog post about cleaning
Model Graciousness article

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a complimentary consultation call

View Details

What do we do when our child gets an ADHD diagnosis? How do we best support a child with ADHD? As a mom of a child with ADHD, as you’ll hear in this episode, getting a diagnosis was relief and fear of the unknown all wrapped into one.

In this week’s episode, I speak with Dr. Sharon Saline, Psy.D., clinical psychologist and author of the award-winning book, What Your ADHD Child Wishes You Knew: Working Together to Empower Kids for Success in School and Life and The ADHD solution card deck.

Dr. Sharon specializes in working with children, teens, young adults and families living with ADHD, learning disabilities, high-functioning autism and mental health issues.

Her unique perspective comes from being a sibling in an ADHD home, combined with decades of experience as a clinical psychologist and educator/clinician consultant. This helps her in guiding families and adults towards effective communication and closer connections.

Listen in as we talk about:

What is ADHD?
The three types of ADHD
How to help our kids build working memory
Why understanding extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation is important
Dr. Sharon’s 5 C’s of ADHD parenting approach
What makes kids with ADHD extra special

Resources mentioned in this episode

Download: The 5 C’s of ADHD Parenting
The Gift of ADHD by Lara Honos-Webb
What Your ADHD Child Wishes You Knew

Connect with Dr. Sharon

On Instagram
On Twitter
LinkedIn
Facebook
Blog
www.drsharonsaline.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

This week’s episode is a coaching call with Erin, mom of two girls, nine year old Callan and seven year old Nora.

Erin has been experiencing self-doubt in parenting her oldest daughter, who is incredibly sensitive and whose Worry Brain takes over in stressful situations.

I give Erin actionable tips and strategies that she can use to help Callan find more calm and trust from within. Be sure to listen to the end to hear how the strategies were implemented!

We talk about:

Reassuring your sensitive kids
What to do when one sibling feels like the other “has it easier”
How to navigate feeling like you aren’t doing enough as a parent
Tips to make sure our kids’ needs are being met

Resources mentioned in this episode

Join My Membership
List of Boundaries
Worry Brain Blog Post

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a complimentary consultation call

View Details

How do we reparent ourselves, and what does it even mean to begin with?

In this week’s episode, I speak with Leslie Priscilla, a first generation non-Black Xicana with Rarámuri lineage. She is a mother to three biracial children and a certified Parent Coach with over 13 years of experience.

She shares with us her knowledge and insight on reparenting our own inner child so that we can show up and be the parents we’ve always wanted to be.

Listen in as we talk about:

The changes she’s making to parenting in LatinX culture
What reparenting is and why our own healing is important
Why reparenting ourselves can feel uncomfortable and disrespectful in relation to how we were raised
The importance of self-compassion and tips to visualizing it
How to break patterns of anger

Leslie shares her medicine by offering coaching, workshops, support and advocacy for Latinx/Chicanx families locally, nationally and internationally via Latinx Parenting. Leslie’s vision is of a movement rooted in children's rights, social and racial justice, the individual and collective practice of nonviolence and reparenting, intergenerational and ancestral healing, cultural sustenance, and the active decolonization of oppressive practices in our families towards liberation.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Free Parenting Reset Challenge
Parenting From the Inside Out by Dan Siegel and Mary Hartzell

Connect with Leslie

On Instagram
On Twitter
Www.Latinxparenting.org

with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

This week’s episode is a solo episode with me. I share strategies you can use if your partner is not onboard with peaceful parenting.

What I’ve learned in my own peaceful parenting journey is that our partner’s resistance can oftentimes come from fear. Fear that you think they’re a bad parent, or fear that the kids won’t turn out well.

Listen in as we talk about:

How to encourage peaceful parenting without shaming your partner
The three big ideas to help your partner consider peaceful parenting
How peaceful parenting tools can help you build connection with your partner
Two tips for intervening when your partner is having a hard time parenting

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Peaceful Partners Cheatsheet

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a complimentary consultation call

View Details

This week’s episode is a coaching call with Ray, dad of two girls: a six-year-old and one-year-old.

Ray shares his challenges with us about regulating his own big feelings when he’s feeling overwhelmed by noise or arguing between his daughters, as well as how to set limits when you’ve stopped yelling (mostly!)

We talk about actionable strategies and tips that Ray can incorporate into his daily routine, as well as talk about:

Why yelling hurts our kids more than we know
How to intervene with your kids in a kind way
Tips to repair the relationship with your child after crossing a yelling boundary
Ways to encourage fun, playfulness and genuine laughter

Resources mentioned in this episode

Get my Special Time Guide here
21 Day How to Stop Yelling at Your Kids E-Course
Siblings book

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com
Book a complimentary consultation call

View Details

Sometimes our kids have challenges that can’t be fully addressed with peaceful parenting. Sensory processing challenges/disorder can cause challenging behaviour if you’re not aware of what’s going on.

In this week’s episode, I speak with Dayna Abraham. She helps us understand what sensory processing challenges are and what we can do to help our children. Dayna is the founder of the Calm the Chaos® Framework, best-selling author of The Superkids Activity Guide to Conquering Every Day and founder of the popular blog, Lemon Lime Adventures.

Dayna helps parents and education professionals unlock the unique super powers in children so they can live a more peaceful life filled with clarity, connection and empowerment by providing them with a proven plan designed to Calm the Chaos® of everyday life.

Listen in as we talk about:

How Dayna came into this work through the challenges her son faced at school
What our 8 main senses are
Examples of “bad” behaviours that may actually be sensory processing challenges
What to do when you notice your child having sensory processing challenges
Are sensory processing challenges more common than they used to be?

When she’s not writing, you can find her drinking lots of coffee and being the best sidekick possible for her own three Superkids.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Get Your Free Sensory Poster Pack

Connect with Dayna

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://lemonlimeadventures.com/

with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

This week’s episode is a solo episode with me and we talk about empathy.

If you know me or have been following my peaceful parenting techniques for a while, you will know that I always come back to empathy. It’s so important for our kids to feel genuinely heard and understood by us.

Listen in as we talk about:

Does empathy make our kids weak?
Why empathy is important
How to empathize, especially when it’s hard
Why we can be fearful to show empathy
The reasons why our kids might want us to stop showing empathy

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

This week’s episode is a coaching call with Keri, mom of a 5 year old and 3 year old, with one more on the way.

Keri has been having a hard time getting her strong-willed 5 year old to cooperate. They often found themselves in ugly power struggles! We discuss actionable strategies that you can use to transform the conversation and avoid power struggles altogether.

Listen in as we talk about:

Why our strong-willed kids fight for control
An overview of the three big ideas of a strong-willed child
The importance of pausing before setting a limit
Power games to help our kids feel powerful and in control
What to do when your strong-willed kid doesn’t want to go along with ‘play’

Resources mentioned in this episode

Get my Special Time Guide here
Strong-Willed Child Cheat Sheet here

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

In this week’s episode, I speak with Yolanda Wiliams, the woman behind Parenting Decolonized.

As a single mom, racial justice educator, and Positive Discipline Coach, Yolanda empowers parents with tools to decolonize their mindsets and divest from white supremacy in order to raise the next generation of emotionally-well, liberated, free-thinkers and in the process, form deeper more intentional relationships with their children.

Listen in as we talk about:

What it means to decolonize parenting
How colonization shows up on a micro level in terms of parenting
Yolanda’s tips for anti-racist parenting
Why white supremacy hurts everybody
How white parents can have anti-racist conversations with their kids

She is unapologetically dedicated to serving the black parenting community, to celebrating the culture and beauty as often as she can, and to helping actors become accomplices in the fight for intersectional racial justice.

She started this work after having her first child at 37 years old and learning as much as she could about children and their brain development in 2017.

Resources from Yolanda

https://www.whiteaccomplices.org
White Supremacy Culture Characteristics
Book: Raising Anti-Racist Kids: An Age by Age Guide for Parents of White Children

Resources from Sarah

PEPS Anti-Racist Resources for Parents
The White Parent's Guide to Raising Anti-Racist Kids
To understand more about being Black in North America
Book: You'll Never Believe What Happened to Lacey

Connect with Yolanda

On Instagram
On Facebook
On Twitter
YouTube
www.parentingdecolonized.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

This week’s episode is a solo episode with me. I share why we don’t usually need to make things a ‘teachable moment’ and if we do, how to avoid the common traps parents fall into.

When we try to turn every difficult moment into a lesson, or a teachable moment, we actually might be causing more harm than good. Spoiler: Usually the teachable moments are for our own struggles.

Listen in as we talk about:

Why we try to correct unwanted behaviour with teachable moments
The reasons why it's not helpful overall
My tips on what to do instead of making it a ‘teachable moment’
How to help our kids develop empathy without using shame

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

This week’s episode is a coaching call with Laurel and Derrick, parents of a 10 year old boy and two younger girls.

Laurel and Derrick reached out for help with navigating sibling rivalry, power struggles and staying calm. We covered lots of strategies to help in these areas, AND MORE!

Listen in as we talk about:

How to get your kids’ attention when asking them a question the first time
Best practices on how to reduce sibling rivalry
How to rethink Special Time to increase frequency and reduce financial spend
Tips for what to do when kids have done something they know they shouldn’t have

Resources mentioned in the episode:

How To Stop Yelling at Your Kids e-course https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/stop-yelling-kids/
Free e-book- How To Stop Sibling Fights https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/e-book-stop-kids-fighting/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

In this week’s episode, I speak with Chelsea Brennan, founder of Smart Money Mamas and its monthly membership community, the Motivated Mama Society, about how to help our kids learn about money.

Listen in as we talk about:

Best practices for giving your kids allowances
Tips for teaching your kids how to save, spend and gift money
How to transition your kids to using debit and credit cards
How parents’ ideologies around money impact their kids
How to teach your kids about money if allowances aren’t a possibility

Chelsea is an ex-hedge fund manager turned financial educator who is dedicated to changing the way we talk about money, helping moms connect with all aspects of their money in a way that lets them overcome emotional blocks, identify what they most want, and create the healthy money habits that help them achieve their biggest goals. All while modeling positive money relationships for the next generation.

Chelsea lives in Connecticut with her husband (a rockstar stay-at-home dad) and two young and energetic boys.

Connect with Chelsea Brennan

On Instagram
On Facebook
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
YouTube
https://smartmoneymamas.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

In this week’s episode, I sit down with Ned Johnson, author, speaker, and founder of PrepMatters, for a Q&A surrounding the principles of raising a self-driven child.

This conversation was recorded in my membership, where community members were able to ask Ned their questions.

Ned also talks about the book he co-authored with Bill Stixrud called What Do You Say? How to Talk to Kids to Promote Motivation, Stress Tolerance, and a Happy Home. The book is now available for order.

Listen in as we talk about:

Is there anything really worth fighting about with our kids?
Why approaching situations peacefully helps everyone come to a better solution
How to encourage your kids to pursue their passions in this time
Ways to support your kids without undermining their autonomy
Tips to help neuro-diverse children when feeling unaccomplished or frustrated

Resources mentioned in the episode:

Purchase his new book What Do You Say with co-author Bill Stixrud here
Purchase The Self-Driven Child: The Science and Sense of Giving Your Kids More Control Over Their Lives
Free to Learn: Why Unleashing the Instinct to Play Will Make Our Children Happier, More Self-Reliant, and Better Students for Life by Peter Gray

A professional “tutor-geek” since 1993 and battle-tested veteran of test prep, stress regulation and student performance, Ned has spent nearly more than 40,000 one-on-one hours helping students conquer an alphabet of standardized tests, learning and honing his insightful interpersonal skills. Ned coaches clients to manage their anxiety, and find the motivation to reach their full potential.

In 2006, Ned co-authored the book Conquering the SAT: How Parents Can Help Students Overcome the Pressure and Succeed, which tackles the outsized role anxiety plays in standardized testing. With Dr. William Stixrud, Ned co-authored The Self-Driven Child: The Science and Sense of Giving Your Kids More Control Over Their Lives and “What Do You Say?: How to Talk With Kids to Promote Motivation, Stress Tolerance, and a Happy Home”, due out August 17.

Their book explores how fostering children’s autonomy can help solve two challenges endemic to kids today: facing anxiety and developing intrinsic motivation. Ned is also the host of the PrepTalks podcast: conversations with parenting and education experts. Aa sought-after speaker and teen coach on study skills, sleep deprivation, parent-teen dynamics, and test anxiety, and his work is featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Wall Street Journal.

Connect with Ned

On Instagram
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
On Facebook
Prep Talks Podcast
www.prepmatters.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

This week’s episode is a solo episode in which I talk about why it’s so important for your children to not feel responsible for your big emotions.

I have had a lot of questions from my community about why we shouldn’t let our children see us cry, and I wanted to explain more on this and give some specific examples.

Listen in as we talk about:

When to show your child your tears
Why it’s important to be a strong leader and how to do that
How to be a strong leader even when feeling your own big emotions
The transformation that you will facilitate for your children

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

This week’s episode is a coaching call with Amy, a mom of two young kids.

Amy struggled to get her kids to change tasks throughout the day without having meltdowns, so we talked about different strategies around how to get them to transition peacefully.

Listen in as we talk about:

How to get your kids to stop playing and moving to the next task without yelling
How to overcome our own fears of what others will think
What to do when your child is anxious and how to handle the Worry Brain

Resources mentioned in the episode:

Order the Hey Warrior Book
Order Anxious Kids, Anxious Parents by Lynn Lyons and Reid Wilson

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

In this week’s episode, I sit down with Ned Johnson, author, speaker, and founder of PrepMatters, an educational company providing academic tutoring, educational planning, and standardized test preparation.

Ned’s books have helped me through so many parts of my parenting journey and I share some of the stories in this conversation.

Listen in as we talk about:

Why parents are so afraid to give their kids more control
What a self driven child is
How giving kids control helps them to be self motivated
Tips for parents to manage their anxiety when it comes to their kids’ choices
Tips to help your kids see the bigger picture

Resources mentioned in the episode:

Pre-Order his new book What Do You Say with co-author Bill Stixrud here
Purchase Hunt, Gather, Parent by Michaeleen Doucleff
Purchase 50 Dangerous Things You Should Let Your Children Do by Gever Tulley

Connect with Ned

On Instagram
On Twitter
On LinkedIn
On Facebook
Prep Talks Podcast
www.prepmatters.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

In this week’s episode, I talk about the importance of fostering independence instead of pushing your kids to become independent.

It’s natural as a parent to worry that your kids will grow up not being independent, so we sometimes try and push them to do things for themselves when maybe they need a bit more love and nurturing.

The key is to find balance on both sides.

Listen in as I talk about:

The difference between letting your kids become independent vs. pushing them to be independent
Why it’s okay to do things for your kids that they can do for themselves
Tips to foster more independence with your kids

To sign up for Sarah’s free workshop on Peaceful Discipline click HERE

Resources mentioned in the episode:

Special Time including ideas for roughhousing: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/special-time-guide/
Self-Compassion: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/self-compassion/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

This bonus episode is a Facebook Live that I did in my Facebook group with Afshan Tafler about the impact punishment has on our kids’ nervous systems.

I love learning from Afshan and every time we speak I feel like we could chat for hours.

If you listened to episode 5, you’ll know that Afshan focuses on how our emotional health connects to physical health and in turn parenting.

Lastly, be sure to check out my online course as Afshan will be doing a bonus training for all those that join before the cart closes on Tuesday, July 20, 2021.

Listen in as we talk about:

The definition of being hijacked
The three states of our nervous systems
What the nervous system needs to feel safe
How your emotions and reactions impact those of your kids
Why punishing your kids does more harm than good

Purchase my online course Transform Your Family Life here

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

In this week’s episode, I sit down with Sangam, mom of a three year old daughter.

We chat about Sangam’s challenges in regulating her own emotions when situations don’t go as planned, and how to build a connection with her daughter when they had a rough start and she herself had a rough childhood.

Listen in as we talk about:

Tips for parents to self regulate when feeling overwhelmed and how to pause when you’re feeling triggered
What to do when you’re afraid you’ve messed up your child and how to move on in a positive direction
Three strategies to strengthen the connection between you and your child
How Sangam implemented the strategies given and achieved an incredible outcome

To sign up for Sarah’s free workshop on Peaceful Discipline click HERE

Resources mentioned in the episode:

Special Time including ideas for roughhousing: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/special-time-guide/
Self-Compassion: https://www.sarahrosensweet.com/self-compassion/

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

In this week’s episode, I sit down with Afshan Tafler, who is a holistic Life Coach, Conscious Parenting Coach and IFS Practitioner.

Afshan helps you master emotional stress so you can transform your health and thrive in your relationship with your kids. She has become a sought-after wellness and parenting expert, and has been featured on leading Parenting summits such as Mindful World Parenting, Great Parenting Show, Embodiment Conference, Raising Your Strong Willed Child, and more.

Afshan is also a mom to a special needs and strong willed child, and is passionate about coaching parents with sensitive and spirited children to thrive in their relationships.

Listen in as we talk about:

About reactive anger - when quick responses happen in the body - and how to not go there every time
How your child’s nervous system and temperament is influenced by yours
How to recognize when you’re not calm
Identifying the state of your nervous system
How to repattern the nervous system so that you can transform anger to calm

To sign up for Sarah’s free workshop on Peaceful Discipline click HERE

Resources Mentioned in the Episode

Jon Kabat-Zinn Body Scan Meditation
How to do a Body Scan Meditation

Connect with Afshan

On Instagram
On Facebook
www.illuminateu.ca

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

In this week’s episode, I highlight some strategies and tools you can use to help you respond effectively when your kids use rude talk or backtalk.

When these situations arise, it’s because there’s something hard going on for them.. I’ll share with you ways you can navigate this in a peaceful, constructive way.

Listen in as we talk about:

Why kids talk back
The most effective strategies to navigate backtalk
How to respond to your child when they’re talking back
Ways you make your kids feel safe, understood and supported

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

This week’s podcast episode is a live coaching session with Yael, who’s a mom of two young kids.

If you’ve ever had trouble getting your kids to sleep, or if they simply do not want to get dressed in the morning, this episode is for you.

At the end of this episode, I catch up with Yael to see how the strategies we spoke about worked.

You will learn actionable tools and tips on:

Looking inwards to understand the root of frustration
Ways to empower your kids to get dressed on their own
How to support their decisions in an empowering way
Tips to balance being there for your kids as they sleep, and “me” time

Resources:

Get Sarah’s Cheat Sheet to Peaceful Parenting Here
Get your free Special Time guide here

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

In this week’s podcast episode, I sat down with my mentor and longtime friend, Dr. Laura Markham.

Dr. Laura Markham earned her PhD in clinical psychology at Columbia University and has worked as a parenting coach with countless families across the world. Her aspiration is to change the world, one child at a time, by supporting parents.

In this candid conversation, we explore the idea of power struggles, and how to transform it into encouragement and confidence for your kids.

Listen in as we talk about:

Redefining what ‘power struggle’ means
Tips for working through power struggles
Ways to help your kids step into their power
Actionable tips to build trust with your kids

Dr. Laura is the proud mother of two thriving young adults who were raised with her peaceful parenting approach; she lives with her husband in New York.

Resources:

What is peaceful parenting?
Get Sarah’s Cheat Sheet to Peaceful Parenting Here
Purchase: Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids
Purchase: Peaceful Parent, Happy Siblings
Purchase: Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids Workbook

Connect with Dr. Laura Markham here:

On Facebook
On Twitter
On Pinterest
On Instagram
www.AhaParenting.com

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

In this very first podcast episode, I’m so excited to chat with my three kids about peaceful parenting and learn about their perspective on growing up with parents who use these tools.

I learned so much from them in this candid conversation about what it was like being raised by parents who incorporated these tools from a young age.

What I loved most about this episode was the advice and feedback my kids shared with parents on how they can help their children grow, feel supported and understood.

Listen in as we talk about:

The three big ideas of peaceful parenting
How I became a peaceful parent
Differences my kids have noticed by being raised with peaceful parenting
What parents should from (from my kids’ perspectives)
If they enjoyed growing up with peaceful parenting

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet

On Instagram
On Facebook
https://www.sarahrosensweet.com

View Details

Welcome to the Peaceful Parenting Podcast, the podcast where I cover the tools, strategies and support you need to end the yelling and power struggles and encourage your kids to listen and cooperate so that you can enjoy your family time.

Learn why the peaceful parenting method has been so successful for my family, and how it can transform yours too.

Be sure to hit the subscribe button and leave a rating and review!

The Peaceful Parenting Podcast: Recent Episodes

Sarah Rosensweet